Making Sense - Sam Harris - Making Sense of Belief and Unbelief

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.820 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.880 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber

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00:00:30.520 We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support

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00:00:48.400 Welcome to the Essential Sam Harris.

00:00:51.520 This is Making Sense of Belief and Unbelief.

00:00:55.240 The goal of this series is to organize, compile, and juxtapose conversations hosted by Sam

00:01:02.500 Harris into specific areas of interest.

00:01:06.020 This is an ongoing effort to construct a coherent overview of Sam's perspectives and arguments,

00:01:11.520 the various explorations and approaches to the topic, the relevant agreements and disagreements,

00:01:17.780 and the pushbacks and evolving thoughts which his guests have advanced.

00:01:21.360 The purpose of these compilations is not to provide a complete picture of any issue, but

00:01:28.440 to entice you to go deeper into these subjects.

00:01:31.680 Along the way, we'll point you to the full episodes with each featured guest.

00:01:36.360 And at the conclusion, we'll offer some reading, listening, and watching suggestions, which range

00:01:41.860 from fun and light to densely academic.

00:01:44.260 One note to keep in mind for this series, Sam has long argued for a unity of knowledge where

00:01:51.620 the barriers between fields of study are viewed as largely unhelpful artifacts of unnecessarily

00:01:57.100 partitioned thought.

00:01:58.840 The pursuit of wisdom and reason in one area of study naturally bleeds into, and greatly

00:02:04.240 affects, others.

00:02:05.380 You'll hear plenty of crossover into other topics as these dives into the archives unfold.

00:02:11.840 And your thinking about a particular topic may shift as you realize its contingent relationships

00:02:16.800 with others.

00:02:18.420 In this topic, you'll hear the natural overlap with theories of moral and political philosophy,

00:02:24.120 free will, artificial intelligence, consciousness, death and spirituality, and more.

00:02:31.180 So, get ready.

00:02:34.840 Let's make sense of belief and unbelief.

00:02:40.640 If there's a central fulcrum to consider for Sam's overall interests and efforts, it

00:02:46.060 may very well be this concept of belief.

00:02:49.420 Questioning the nature of it, considering the power of it, probing the fragility of it, exploring

00:02:55.580 the absence of it, distinguishing it from other types of knowledge conjecture, and

00:03:01.160 trying to describe it physiologically.

00:03:03.940 We could use an examination of belief as the entryway to just about any of the episodes

00:03:09.400 in the entire catalog of Making Sense.

00:03:12.560 But to avoid such wayward meandering through the archives, let's take a quick look at the

00:03:17.200 math that we'll be using here.

00:03:19.020 We're going to start with three interviews of women who left faith systems under different

00:03:23.980 circumstances.

00:03:25.440 Each of these women are now engaged with different levels of advocacy, and all of them have their

00:03:30.660 own opinions and frustrations with what they see as a cowardly or hypocritical attitude

00:03:35.660 when it comes to the promotion of universal human rights and the political sanctity of

00:03:40.680 religions.

00:03:41.860 You'll also hear Sam's full-throated agreement on many of those observations and critiques.

00:03:48.220 We'll then take a turn towards the conceptual, philosophical, and existential concerns of religion

00:03:54.540 and belief.

00:03:55.960 This turn will take us towards Sam's brand of atheism, which moves quickly towards his

00:04:00.660 interest in selflessness and meditation, as being intertwined with what religions are claiming

00:04:05.540 to have on offer.

00:04:07.580 Then, we'll take a step further away from the personal and let Sam and a guest play around

00:04:12.720 with ideas of epistemology, or the frameworks for understanding how we know what we know.

00:04:18.220 And finally, we'll come back and do something slightly different in this compilation.

00:04:25.140 We'll borrow a few important moments from Sam's career which are not directly from the

00:04:29.240 Making Sense archive.

00:04:31.180 These will be two excellent audience questions from live events that echo familiar responses

00:04:36.140 and concerns regarding Sam's advocacy of atheism.

00:04:39.920 So, let's start there briefly.

00:04:42.800 Sam's atheism.

00:04:43.880 We are really prisoners of literature right now.

00:04:47.820 We are constrained to talk either explicitly about these books or in some vague conformity

00:04:55.600 to these books.

00:04:56.880 Every person in this room has more access to information and scientific knowledge and just

00:05:03.360 what is now basic common sense than the authors of the Bible and the Quran.

00:05:07.840 And, in fact, there's not a person in this room who has ever met a person whose worldview

00:05:19.160 is as narrow just by the sheer time in which they appeared in history as the worldviews of

00:05:26.500 Abraham or Moses or Jesus or Muhammad.

00:05:28.960 And until we grapple with that fact and honestly commit ourselves to a 21st century conversation

00:05:36.760 about the possibilities of human well-being, we're just going to be at sea and we're going

00:05:41.300 to be trying to figure out whether we should pass laws about gay marriage and whether we should

00:05:46.900 ban blasphemy at the UN and whether we should allow newspapers to print cartoons about the Prophet

00:05:52.700 Muhammad and we're going to just be bewildered by the relentless certainties of people who

00:06:00.900 are obviously lying to themselves.

00:06:04.700 From time to time, new listeners are taken aback to hear just how deep Sam's distaste

00:06:09.860 for religion runs and how hostile he can appear to be to it.

00:06:14.380 Sam's public career began in earnest with the publication of a book called The End of Faith,

00:06:19.840 which will be recommended reading for this subject.

00:06:21.840 He's described this book as his direct response to the events of September 11th, 2001.

00:06:28.960 While he may change phrasing in certain passages if he would rewrite the book today, his attitude

00:06:34.400 of frustration with the shielded, protected status of faith systems, at least in the U.S.

00:06:39.580 at the turn of the century, would not be any less fierce.

00:06:43.440 This book hit the shelves alongside Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, Christopher Hitchens'

00:06:48.780 God Is Not Great, and Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell.

00:06:53.340 All of the books were successful and launched what became informally known as the New Atheist Movement.

00:06:59.000 There are several vague definitions floating around, but Sam thinks of it as a renewed public effort

00:07:04.420 to push back against the special status of religion, given an interconnected technological world

00:07:10.080 quickly raising the stakes of the persistence and perpetuation of bad ideas, as exhibited by 9-11.

00:07:17.200 New Atheism's most controversial impulse was also showing little hesitation to speak about

00:07:22.860 individual belief systems as causing specific and distinguishable levels of threat and danger.

00:07:28.840 Sam and the New Atheists took a stance that all religious belief systems are philosophically

00:07:34.440 harmful, but that it is only honest and politically prudent to notice the specific political and

00:07:40.180 social consequences that each system presents.

00:07:43.480 It's important to note that that is a fluid stance that can, and should, constantly reorder

00:07:49.380 its beliefs of most concern, given the complex contextual situation of global politics, technology,

00:07:56.280 economic status, history, and much more.

00:08:00.560 It also doesn't necessarily cast familiar codified religions as the eternally fixed targets of

00:08:06.640 critique.

00:08:07.940 Systems of political ideology, pseudoscience, and magical explanations can become the rational

00:08:13.960 targets of objection, given the right circumstance.

00:08:17.360 Throughout this compilation, we'll be considering some of the debates around the tactical efforts

00:08:22.500 which take aim at all of these harmful belief systems.

00:08:26.280 An important tenet to start with in order to follow Sam through these conversations

00:08:30.480 is this simple one which Sam espouses.

00:08:34.120 Belief motivates behavior.

00:08:37.140 Sam goes to great lengths to make this point.

00:08:40.520 Bad ideas are a far bigger problem than bad people.

00:08:45.140 By this he means that bad people are luckily quite rare.

00:08:48.520 A bad person would be someone physiologically disposed to do harm, something akin to bad brain

00:08:56.040 wiring or genetically determined sociopathic tendencies, where the person derives actual

00:09:01.760 pleasure from inflicting harm and is physiologically unable to feel empathy.

00:09:06.500 These kinds of people do exist, of course, and you should listen to our compilation on free will to understand how easy it should be to conjure an attitude of honest compassion towards them, while also safeguarding society from them.

00:09:20.160 But what is overwhelmingly more common is that an otherwise perfectly good person has bad ideas which motivate his behavior, bad software running on good functional hardware.

00:09:34.120 Sam points out what is simultaneously so frightening and encouraging about this fact.

00:09:39.660 If we lived in a world that was chock full of actual psychopaths who were impervious to being persuaded by good ideas, that emergency would feel rather hopeless and dangerous.

00:09:51.940 But because the mind and brain are generally open hardware systems, it matters greatly what kind of software is running on them.

00:09:59.880 If we take it as a given that the vast majority of brains out there are perfectly capable of enacting good behavior,

00:10:06.660 then there could scarcely be anything more important than trying to transmit good ideas to as many of them as possible.

00:10:14.140 This stance motivates Sam's effort to persuade through argumentation rather than condemn and cast out.

00:10:21.220 He sometimes summarizes this situation by saying that

00:10:24.360 conversation and persuasion is really all we have as an alternative to violence, and we've surely had enough violence already.

00:10:32.140 This doesn't discount the truth of an enormously regretful necessity of violence when the situation forces your hand.

00:10:40.520 But that complicated point is best explored in our compilation on violence and pacifism.

00:10:46.880 With that groundwork under us, let's go to our first clip.

00:10:50.720 As we mapped out, this clip will be a personal story of shedding a religious belief system.

00:10:55.840 And as we wanted to make sure to flag, it is only a very small aspect to an otherwise rich and full story.

00:11:03.180 So our encouragement to seek out the full conversations after hearing these clips is especially urged here.

00:11:09.680 One of the different strategies of persuasion which is sometimes deployed by someone who is convinced that religious belief is a dangerous hindrance

00:11:16.840 could be called militant atheism.

00:11:19.380 While none of these persuasion strategies have firmly agreed upon definitions,

00:11:24.360 this concept of militant atheism might be most clearly exhibited by the work of Christopher Hitchens.

00:11:30.620 He used sharp and relentless ridicule and attack aimed squarely at religious belief and institution.

00:11:37.220 This attitude is certainly not for everyone given its aggressive messaging and sometimes jeering tone.

00:11:42.560 But we're about to hear someone's story that started with the intended defensive and retreating response

00:11:48.500 that militant atheism can instigate, and eventually led to her taking a closer look at the charges coming her way.

00:11:55.960 After failing to mount an adequate response, she was moved to reassess her belief system.

00:12:01.700 This is an episode featuring Sarah Hader.

00:12:04.820 Hader co-founded the Ex-Muslims of North America,

00:12:07.620 which does non-belief advocacy work and runs a supportive community of questioning people.

00:12:13.800 They provide safe and confidential outlets for Muslims who may have growing doubts and concerns about their religious faith.

00:12:20.280 But for our purposes here, we're going to listen to her teenage encounters with militant atheism

00:12:25.100 and her subsequent personal journey.

00:12:27.780 We'll also stick with her conversation with Sam to hear a bit of mutual frustration

00:12:32.200 with what they describe as a liberal confusion when it comes to open criticism of otherwise illiberal ideals.

00:12:40.220 In the case of this clip, they'll be discussing the hijab specifically

00:12:44.040 and the clash of feminism with religious freedom.

00:12:47.640 This conversation is from 2017,

00:12:50.260 and there will be some political references and cultural touchstones mentioned from that news cycle.

00:12:56.120 This is Sarah Hader from episode 81, Leaving Islam.

00:13:02.200 Speak for a moment about your background and just how you came to be one of the founders of Ex-Muslims of North America.

00:13:12.160 Sure.

00:13:12.820 So I grew up in what I would consider to be a pretty liberal Muslim family.

00:13:21.720 I didn't know at the time that my upbringing was so liberal relative to other Muslims.

00:13:27.940 I only found out as I began to meet other ex-Muslims about what their reality was to know how good I had it.

00:13:35.640 But I grew up in a relatively liberal Muslim family,

00:13:38.680 which means that they allowed me to move away for college.

00:13:42.340 They allowed me to sort of be a little bit more independent than Muslims generally are.

00:13:48.920 Where were you? Where were you growing up?

00:13:50.320 I grew up in Texas.

00:13:52.060 I was born in Pakistan, and I moved here, I think I was seven or eight when we immigrated to the United States.

00:13:59.500 I remember the process of coming here.

00:14:01.720 I remember the shock of coming to this country.

00:14:04.240 I actually remember the first time I saw a woman in public whose legs were exposed.

00:14:11.060 It was a flight attendant when we stopped in Europe on our way to America.

00:14:15.740 And I remember the shock.

00:14:17.620 I remember feeling, not really understanding what I was looking at,

00:14:21.600 and not really understanding that this was going to be a norm in America.

00:14:25.140 Interesting.

00:14:25.960 So when did you realize that you were a bit of an outlier in terms of your family environment with respect to religion?

00:14:34.840 I started, well, I think most atheists would say this, and that's how I do identify as an atheist,

00:14:40.400 that we were always sort of questioning.

00:14:43.600 There were always sort of problems with religion, and I had them from an early age,

00:14:48.720 but there was always ways for me to justify religious traditions that I may have found problematic.

00:14:55.780 Until I got to be a little bit older, I was in my mid-teens when I really started looking at the religion in a really critical way.

00:15:03.960 I started actually reading for myself the Quran and finding that there were problematic verses and things that didn't really make a lot of sense to me.

00:15:16.340 And the more that I looked into it, the less that it made sense.

00:15:20.180 And I actually encountered quite a few militant atheists,

00:15:23.160 and this is why, even to this day, I don't think that militant atheism is such a horrible thing,

00:15:29.760 because it does push people like me to look into their faith,

00:15:33.980 if only for the reasons that we want to defend it.

00:15:38.360 And that is what happened to me, that I knew some atheists,

00:15:41.940 and they were giving me some questions, some probing questions,

00:15:46.160 and I wanted to be able to defend my faith.

00:15:48.240 So that was one of the reasons that I looked into it with such urgency,

00:15:53.060 because I wanted to be able to defend it,

00:15:55.160 and I found that there really wasn't much there for me to defend.

00:15:58.280 Were these ex-Muslims, or were these Westerners?

00:16:01.820 These were Westerners.

00:16:02.860 These were people who came from a Christian background and then left their faith,

00:16:07.540 and then started pointing out the problems within Islam to me.

00:16:12.840 And of course, I was offended.

00:16:13.780 So this is something that people talk about a lot,

00:16:18.000 that Muslims are offended when you talk about their faith in a critical way,

00:16:21.440 and that's to be expected.

00:16:23.140 And I was offended.

00:16:24.200 I remember being offended.

00:16:25.820 But that offense, it doesn't really mean anything.

00:16:29.660 And in the longer arc of what we're talking about, which is truth.

00:16:36.820 And of course, people will be offended if you talk about something that they hold so dear.

00:16:40.620 But it did push me to look into religion.

00:16:44.900 Well, the offense is really a symptom of not having an argument.

00:16:49.380 You know, I don't get offended if someone claims that my deeply cherished mathematical beliefs

00:16:56.640 or historical beliefs are false,

00:17:00.380 because either they have an argument or they don't.

00:17:03.900 And just offense never enters into it.

00:17:06.700 The fact that we're in the territory where someone only has their offense to wield

00:17:13.700 shows that there's a problem intellectually.

00:17:17.420 That's probably a part of it.

00:17:18.660 At that time, when I was first being confronted with the problematic verse of the Quran,

00:17:23.840 I didn't know it was possible.

00:17:26.240 That seems ridiculous.

00:17:28.420 And as I'm saying it, it sounds ridiculous.

00:17:30.440 But I remember at that time, not knowing.

00:17:32.800 You just didn't know what was in the Quran at that point when you first had these conversations.

00:17:38.520 I didn't know exactly what was in it.

00:17:40.260 And I didn't know that it was even possible to look at it in anything.

00:17:44.760 But as, you know, this extremely virtuous text,

00:17:48.340 I didn't know that there was an interpretation like that out there.

00:17:51.540 So when I first encountered it, it was quite shocking to me.

00:17:54.860 You did an interview with Jeffrey Taylor, which was a great read.

00:17:59.600 And you said one thing there that I wanted to read into this conversation.

00:18:03.760 You said,

00:18:04.580 If Muslims feel they're being badly treated here in the United States,

00:18:08.220 they can go to Muslim-majority countries.

00:18:10.620 But where can a person like me go?

00:18:12.880 I'm in the safest place I can possibly be,

00:18:15.500 and yet I'm too afraid to tell people where I live.

00:18:18.080 It's tragic for me that there's even a need for our organization.

00:18:20.800 And that really does expose just how unique a position it is to be an ex-Muslim.

00:18:28.020 You are in the safest place in the world to be if you're a Muslim, even, really.

00:18:33.700 I mean, we can talk about the problem of anti-Muslim bigotry.

00:18:38.140 But I think it is safe to say that most Muslims are safer in the U.S.

00:18:42.880 than they are in most Muslim-majority countries,

00:18:46.740 given how unstable and sectarian those tend to be.

00:18:49.620 But for an ex-Muslim in the U.S. or in really anywhere in the West,

00:18:56.660 I guess it gets worse once you go to Western Europe.

00:18:59.280 There is this real concern about not being protected by any community.

00:19:07.100 Right.

00:19:07.320 And just to mirror your language,

00:19:09.700 it's true that,

00:19:10.980 I believe it's true that most Muslims are safer in the West

00:19:15.100 than they would be in a Muslim country.

00:19:16.500 More Muslims are safer in the U.S. than our ex-Muslims.

00:19:22.540 Ex-Muslims are less safe in the U.S.

00:19:24.600 Ex-Muslims are less safe in Western countries than your average Muslim.

00:19:28.400 And I think that's a perfectly fair thing to say.

00:19:31.360 And it should be extremely concerning.

00:19:33.200 Yeah, and obviously you inherit all of the problems of, quote,

00:19:39.220 Islamophobia, insofar as that is a problem.

00:19:42.320 Having your name looking like someone who was born in Pakistan,

00:19:46.220 you encounter the same bias or bigotry

00:19:50.040 that any Muslim could be worried about going through an airport

00:19:53.580 or in any other situation where that would become relevant.

00:19:55.880 And yet you have this added concern,

00:19:59.580 which I would argue is a far more pressing one,

00:20:02.840 which is you have some percentage of the Muslim community

00:20:06.980 that thinks what you're doing warrants a violent response.

00:20:13.220 And you never know how big that percentage is

00:20:15.820 or how much you're on their radar.

00:20:17.420 And it bears repeating,

00:20:21.360 this is unique to Islam.

00:20:23.700 As badly behaved as Scientologists are

00:20:26.520 when you take a good swing at that hornet's nest,

00:20:29.760 they don't come and kill you.

00:20:31.860 You know, they can make your life miserable.

00:20:33.760 They can sue you.

00:20:34.720 They can show up at your office with a crazed look in their eyes

00:20:37.940 and video cameras pointed at you 18 hours a day.

00:20:41.460 These are bizarre people who are in an especially bizarre cult.

00:20:47.420 But they don't commit murders

00:20:50.020 and they don't commit suicidal acts of terrorism.

00:20:54.540 And so this is, again,

00:20:56.060 anyone who wants to defend Islam

00:20:58.200 against the unique scrutiny that it merits at this moment

00:21:03.500 has to deal with this fact that,

00:21:06.720 as I said before,

00:21:07.920 you have a play like the Book of Mormon

00:21:09.740 that becomes a Broadway hit

00:21:11.540 and the Mormons take out

00:21:13.640 an advertisement in playbill,

00:21:16.780 in reprisal, right?

00:21:18.160 Their reaction is really adorable.

00:21:21.160 There's not the slightest concern

00:21:23.160 that Trey Parker and Matt Stone

00:21:24.640 will spend the rest of their lives

00:21:26.220 being hunted by religious maniacs.

00:21:29.040 And yet,

00:21:30.140 no one can even imagine

00:21:31.320 staging such a play about Islam at this moment.

00:21:33.720 And the reasons for that

00:21:36.160 are patently obvious

00:21:37.900 and yet everywhere denied

00:21:39.660 by people who complain about, quote, Islamophobia.

00:21:44.540 Right.

00:21:45.160 I mean, I think

00:21:45.640 if Islam could get to where Mormonism is today,

00:21:49.440 that we would be in a much, much better place.

00:21:52.600 And I think that in itself should be telling.

00:21:56.160 The hijab is a good way

00:21:58.380 to illustrate

00:21:59.160 the extent to which

00:22:01.260 liberals are confused about this issue.

00:22:03.680 Because as you pointed out,

00:22:04.860 it's ridiculous to see

00:22:07.140 the poster,

00:22:09.480 the, I think,

00:22:09.860 Shepard Fairey poster

00:22:10.700 of a woman in a hijab

00:22:13.460 as part of the Women's March.

00:22:16.140 And, you know,

00:22:16.960 I understand why

00:22:18.780 people on the left,

00:22:20.500 why progressives have this tendency.

00:22:22.120 I understand what they are trying to do,

00:22:24.720 which is to stand for the freedom

00:22:26.620 of religion

00:22:28.500 for Muslims.

00:22:31.300 And this is, you know,

00:22:32.260 this is a laudable endeavor.

00:22:34.240 This is something that I support.

00:22:35.540 This is a tendency

00:22:37.240 that I really love about the left.

00:22:39.600 I like that they instinctively

00:22:41.920 want to protect the little guy.

00:22:44.240 Having said that,

00:22:45.100 not everything done

00:22:45.960 in the name of good intentions

00:22:47.000 is necessarily good.

00:22:48.420 And not everything,

00:22:49.580 you know,

00:22:50.240 done in the name of good intentions

00:22:51.340 will help the people

00:22:53.360 that you want to help.

00:22:54.240 And in many cases,

00:22:55.040 it might harm

00:22:56.380 the very principles

00:22:58.360 that,

00:22:59.220 the very people

00:23:00.100 that,

00:23:00.680 that,

00:23:01.400 that you want to help.

00:23:02.280 And I think this is,

00:23:03.720 especially the hijab

00:23:04.780 in context of women's rights

00:23:06.300 is,

00:23:06.620 is a case where we can,

00:23:08.160 where we can,

00:23:08.600 where we can see this

00:23:09.720 in a very,

00:23:11.300 in a very clear way.

00:23:12.500 And so I,

00:23:13.640 I,

00:23:13.820 I support,

00:23:14.880 I supported the women's march.

00:23:16.540 You know,

00:23:16.720 I supported,

00:23:17.420 generally speaking,

00:23:18.220 I'm,

00:23:18.460 I'm,

00:23:19.340 women's rights are really

00:23:20.480 close to my heart.

00:23:21.500 And it's really important to me

00:23:23.440 that,

00:23:23.940 that feminism is something

00:23:25.080 that becomes universal,

00:23:26.860 that becomes global.

00:23:28.240 So I,

00:23:29.080 I support,

00:23:30.260 I support,

00:23:31.140 generally speaking,

00:23:33.160 these kinds of,

00:23:34.180 these kinds of initiatives.

00:23:34.960 But I was really disheartened

00:23:36.480 to see that

00:23:37.660 the hijab was suddenly,

00:23:39.200 it's,

00:23:39.660 it's become this totem,

00:23:41.000 you know,

00:23:41.160 it's become this,

00:23:41.760 this symbol of,

00:23:43.520 of religious freedom.

00:23:45.220 And it's kind of,

00:23:46.180 it's,

00:23:46.500 it's pretty perverse

00:23:47.600 given the context

00:23:49.320 of what,

00:23:49.820 what the hijab actually is

00:23:51.400 and given the religious

00:23:53.580 justification for the hijab,

00:23:55.200 which is,

00:23:56.120 which is distinctly

00:23:58.440 anti-freedom.

00:24:03.920 If this is your first time

00:24:05.500 encountering those kinds

00:24:06.600 of arguments,

00:24:07.500 we encourage you to seek out

00:24:08.960 the full conversations

00:24:09.900 to understand the nuance.

00:24:11.760 And how someone like

00:24:12.580 Sarah Hader and Sam

00:24:13.860 are well aware

00:24:15.000 of the counter-arguments

00:24:16.100 and common objections

00:24:17.100 to these kinds of critiques.

00:24:19.580 The moral math

00:24:20.760 regarding how we talk

00:24:21.980 about these things

00:24:22.780 and who is best

00:24:24.260 to talk about them

00:24:25.100 in certain ways

00:24:25.880 is quite tricky.

00:24:27.720 But it's wise

00:24:28.840 to go slowly

00:24:29.640 through these

00:24:30.140 emotionally charged issues

00:24:31.740 and seek out

00:24:32.780 a range of perspectives.

00:24:34.780 It's also wise

00:24:35.980 to note how easy

00:24:37.020 it is to abandon

00:24:37.960 solid moral ground

00:24:39.320 when it seems

00:24:40.320 to demand

00:24:40.880 an outward expression

00:24:41.940 that runs against

00:24:42.780 the grain of one's tribe,

00:24:44.660 whether that be

00:24:45.260 political,

00:24:46.260 religious,

00:24:47.160 familial,

00:24:47.900 or social.

00:24:49.900 We're now going

00:24:50.980 to a story

00:24:51.600 of someone abandoning

00:24:52.740 a belief system,

00:24:53.880 which is quite personal

00:24:54.780 to me.

00:24:55.720 It's actually my story

00:24:57.220 and my first interview

00:24:58.480 with Sam

00:24:59.000 on Making Sense.

00:25:00.420 I'll be breaking

00:25:01.320 the fourth wall

00:25:02.040 as your narrator

00:25:02.740 for a bit here

00:25:03.580 and speaking to you

00:25:04.700 directly.

00:25:05.100 So, my name

00:25:07.400 is Megan Phelps Roper

00:25:08.540 and I grew up

00:25:09.600 in the Westboro Baptist

00:25:10.520 Church in Kansas.

00:25:12.400 If that name

00:25:13.340 sounds vaguely familiar,

00:25:14.960 you might better

00:25:15.620 recall the images

00:25:16.500 of colorful signs

00:25:17.640 with bold letters

00:25:18.580 and messages

00:25:19.300 like,

00:25:20.060 God hates fags.

00:25:21.540 I grew up

00:25:22.160 holding those

00:25:22.680 inflammatory signs

00:25:23.720 while picketing

00:25:24.300 at funerals

00:25:25.020 and learning

00:25:25.880 the theology

00:25:26.480 of the church,

00:25:27.780 an institution

00:25:28.480 founded by my

00:25:29.260 grandfather,

00:25:30.120 Fred Phelps.

00:25:32.220 I tell my story

00:25:33.540 in detail

00:25:34.220 and a memoir

00:25:34.840 entitled

00:25:35.520 Unfollow,

00:25:36.860 a memoir

00:25:37.340 of loving

00:25:37.920 and leaving

00:25:38.460 the Westboro Baptist

00:25:39.340 Church.

00:25:40.340 In this next clip,

00:25:41.700 Sam asks me

00:25:42.500 about some

00:25:42.980 of the specific

00:25:43.560 doctrines

00:25:44.160 and beliefs

00:25:44.660 I held

00:25:45.180 while I was

00:25:45.660 a member

00:25:45.940 of the church

00:25:46.580 and we chronicle

00:25:47.820 a bit of my journey,

00:25:49.460 how I started out

00:25:50.340 professing intensely

00:25:51.400 held religious beliefs

00:25:52.560 that I took

00:25:53.060 to be completely true

00:25:54.140 to the place

00:25:55.260 I am now,

00:25:56.520 reading a script

00:25:57.220 for a prominent

00:25:57.980 atheist philosopher.

00:26:00.300 My experience

00:26:01.300 has surfaced

00:26:01.920 the strange nature

00:26:02.780 of belief

00:26:03.280 in my own mind.

00:26:05.000 After we listen

00:26:05.680 in on my

00:26:06.160 conversation

00:26:06.660 with Sam,

00:26:07.480 I'll be back

00:26:08.180 to reflect

00:26:08.660 on what those

00:26:09.220 beliefs were

00:26:09.900 and how my

00:26:10.980 process confirms

00:26:11.960 many of the

00:26:12.580 arguments and

00:26:13.320 stances that Sam

00:26:14.280 has outlined

00:26:14.880 in his career.

00:26:16.600 One familiar

00:26:17.600 retort to

00:26:18.420 arguments and

00:26:19.160 stories like

00:26:19.780 the ones we're

00:26:20.360 sharing in this

00:26:21.000 compilation goes

00:26:22.340 like this,

00:26:23.780 well,

00:26:24.240 that's not real

00:26:24.980 Islam,

00:26:25.960 or that's not

00:26:27.140 real Christianity,

00:26:28.760 or that these

00:26:30.340 people are just

00:26:30.980 psychopaths who

00:26:32.100 are going to do

00:26:32.660 these things

00:26:33.080 anyway.

00:26:34.240 I'll provide

00:26:35.140 some of my

00:26:35.640 thoughts on

00:26:36.080 those kinds

00:26:36.480 of responses

00:26:37.000 here.

00:26:37.920 You should

00:26:38.200 also know

00:26:38.740 that for this

00:26:39.220 conversation,

00:26:40.240 Sam and I

00:26:40.740 connected shortly

00:26:41.560 after I'd read

00:26:42.380 an article by

00:26:43.180 Graham Wood

00:26:43.800 entitled,

00:26:45.080 What Isis

00:26:45.720 Really Wants,

00:26:47.120 an article which

00:26:47.940 didn't tiptoe

00:26:48.740 around the

00:26:49.240 explicit link

00:26:50.020 between religious

00:26:50.720 doctrine and

00:26:51.840 outward behavior.

00:26:53.760 Needless to say,

00:26:54.800 I found some

00:26:55.400 parallels in this

00:26:56.160 article worth

00:26:56.800 discussing with

00:26:57.440 Sam.

00:26:57.760 So here's me

00:27:00.520 talking with

00:27:01.200 Sam from a

00:27:01.920 very early

00:27:02.480 episode of

00:27:03.080 Making Sense.

00:27:04.600 This is from

00:27:05.240 episode 12

00:27:06.100 from 2015,

00:27:07.960 an episode

00:27:08.540 entitled

00:27:09.120 Leaving the

00:27:09.900 Church.

00:27:11.520 Let's back

00:27:12.520 up and talk

00:27:13.700 about your

00:27:15.300 background itself

00:27:16.080 and what the

00:27:17.280 Westboro Baptist

00:27:18.320 Church is.

00:27:19.500 Many people

00:27:19.940 will have seen

00:27:21.060 the visuals

00:27:21.660 online of you

00:27:23.600 and the rest

00:27:24.020 of your family,

00:27:26.100 I guess,

00:27:26.380 holding signs

00:27:27.460 that say

00:27:28.020 God hates

00:27:28.680 fags or

00:27:29.560 I think

00:27:30.480 thank God

00:27:31.040 for dead

00:27:31.480 soldiers is

00:27:32.460 one of them.

00:27:33.060 So tell me

00:27:33.980 about Westboro

00:27:35.880 and let's

00:27:37.600 get into

00:27:37.960 what you

00:27:38.440 actually believed

00:27:40.460 growing up.

00:27:41.680 Right.

00:27:42.000 Okay, so

00:27:42.600 the protesting

00:27:44.820 started when I

00:27:45.980 was five

00:27:46.640 and the

00:27:48.620 church is

00:27:49.340 located about

00:27:50.380 half a mile

00:27:51.060 from a

00:27:52.280 public park

00:27:53.540 in Topeka,

00:27:55.340 Kansas.

00:27:55.580 and it

00:27:57.000 was this

00:27:57.560 park was

00:27:58.040 known as

00:27:58.800 a place

00:27:59.240 where gays

00:28:00.000 could go

00:28:00.420 and meet

00:28:00.980 and have

00:28:01.300 anonymous

00:28:01.640 sex and

00:28:02.380 it was

00:28:02.620 something that

00:28:03.100 was well

00:28:03.620 known in

00:28:04.340 the community

00:28:04.840 and it

00:28:06.160 was even

00:28:06.440 listed in

00:28:07.140 this nationally

00:28:07.900 circulated

00:28:08.700 address book

00:28:09.580 of such

00:28:10.900 places,

00:28:11.560 you know,

00:28:11.780 listings across

00:28:12.600 the country.

00:28:14.180 And, you

00:28:15.640 know, one

00:28:15.980 day, you

00:28:16.980 know, a

00:28:17.240 couple years

00:28:17.640 before the

00:28:18.620 picketing

00:28:18.880 started,

00:28:19.360 my grandfather

00:28:21.220 was riding

00:28:21.900 through the

00:28:22.600 park with

00:28:23.800 my older

00:28:24.320 brother who

00:28:24.920 was at

00:28:25.360 the time

00:28:25.900 about four

00:28:26.720 or five

00:28:27.300 maybe.

00:28:28.740 They were

00:28:29.380 riding their

00:28:29.800 bikes and,

00:28:31.560 you know, my

00:28:31.960 grandfather would

00:28:32.580 ride ahead a

00:28:33.140 little way and

00:28:33.640 then circle

00:28:34.060 back.

00:28:35.280 And one of the

00:28:35.880 times when he

00:28:36.300 was circling

00:28:36.740 back, he

00:28:37.780 saw two

00:28:38.460 men, you

00:28:39.360 know, trying

00:28:39.740 to lure my

00:28:40.440 brother into

00:28:41.120 the bushes

00:28:41.560 and, you

00:28:44.320 know, just

00:28:44.740 immediately

00:28:45.880 wanted to do

00:28:46.820 something about

00:28:47.380 it.

00:28:47.860 So he

00:28:48.240 started writing

00:28:49.400 letters to

00:28:49.940 the city

00:28:50.240 fathers and,

00:28:51.220 you know,

00:28:54.280 going to city

00:28:55.020 council meetings

00:28:55.660 trying to get,

00:28:56.620 you know, the

00:28:57.480 park cleaned

00:28:58.080 up.

00:28:59.360 I mean, this

00:28:59.720 was, I mean,

00:29:00.140 it was really

00:29:00.540 something that

00:29:01.040 was well-known.

00:29:01.680 There were, you

00:29:02.120 know, journalists

00:29:03.160 and cops, they

00:29:04.380 were doing sting

00:29:05.280 operations and so

00:29:06.380 it was an

00:29:07.600 undeniable fact.

00:29:08.960 So this was,

00:29:09.880 this was in

00:29:10.560 what year?

00:29:11.040 88, 89.

00:29:12.460 And this was

00:29:12.840 your father or

00:29:13.720 your grandfather

00:29:14.200 who had this

00:29:15.020 experience?

00:29:15.880 My grandfather,

00:29:16.820 yes, my

00:29:17.380 grandfather is

00:29:17.900 Fred Phelps,

00:29:18.500 sorry, and

00:29:18.880 he's the one

00:29:19.320 who founded,

00:29:20.280 I mean, who

00:29:20.820 was the first

00:29:21.400 pastor of the

00:29:22.180 Westboro Baptist

00:29:22.640 Church.

00:29:23.100 Was he a

00:29:23.440 pastor already

00:29:24.200 or he just

00:29:25.420 decided to

00:29:26.000 become one at

00:29:26.500 this point?

00:29:26.900 So he, he

00:29:28.660 was ordained

00:29:29.460 when he was,

00:29:30.280 I think, 16

00:29:31.300 or 17 in

00:29:33.880 Utah and he

00:29:35.160 was kind of a

00:29:35.640 traveling preacher

00:29:36.520 and then he

00:29:38.300 ended up in

00:29:38.820 Topeka and,

00:29:40.160 you know, he

00:29:40.480 was preaching at

00:29:41.300 a church called

00:29:41.980 the Eastside

00:29:42.560 Baptist Church

00:29:43.340 and they

00:29:44.920 were about

00:29:45.280 to start

00:29:45.820 another church

00:29:46.640 on the other

00:29:47.020 side of town

00:29:47.620 and they

00:29:49.400 asked him to

00:29:50.120 stay and be

00:29:51.240 the pastor.

00:29:52.080 So, so that's

00:29:54.080 how he ended up

00:29:54.740 in Topeka at

00:29:55.520 this church.

00:29:56.500 Was he already

00:29:57.720 someone, he had

00:29:59.320 to have already

00:29:59.680 been someone who

00:30:00.280 was quite

00:30:00.800 fundamentalist in

00:30:01.700 his belief

00:30:02.560 anyway, right?

00:30:03.720 Or is this, was

00:30:04.720 this a formative

00:30:05.380 moment for him?

00:30:06.000 So, so the

00:30:07.340 church actually

00:30:07.760 started in

00:30:08.280 1955, so he

00:30:11.000 had been a

00:30:11.420 preacher for

00:30:11.940 some time before

00:30:12.760 this incident

00:30:13.320 and his, his

00:30:14.020 views over the

00:30:14.780 years had

00:30:15.200 gotten, you

00:30:15.960 know, further

00:30:16.700 and further away

00:30:17.440 from the

00:30:17.760 mainstream.

00:30:20.040 And so when

00:30:22.140 this happened

00:30:22.640 and, you know,

00:30:23.040 he spent, I

00:30:23.620 think it was

00:30:24.000 about a year,

00:30:25.520 maybe more

00:30:25.920 than a year

00:30:26.440 trying to get

00:30:28.380 the city to do

00:30:29.140 something about

00:30:29.760 it and he

00:30:30.180 said, okay,

00:30:30.740 well, I'm

00:30:31.440 going to do

00:30:31.700 something about

00:30:32.100 this myself.

00:30:32.740 So that's when

00:30:33.180 the picketing

00:30:33.580 actually started

00:30:34.500 and it was

00:30:35.400 just relatively

00:30:36.300 innocuous signs

00:30:37.260 like, you

00:30:37.760 know, watch

00:30:38.280 your kids,

00:30:39.160 gays troll this

00:30:39.880 park, you

00:30:41.140 know, gays

00:30:41.560 are in the

00:30:41.860 restrooms and,

00:30:42.940 you know, things

00:30:43.220 like that.

00:30:44.660 And the, the

00:30:45.940 response, you

00:30:46.780 know, from the

00:30:47.140 community, other

00:30:47.960 churches started

00:30:49.400 coming out to

00:30:50.320 counter-protests

00:30:51.380 saying things like

00:30:52.680 God's love speaks

00:30:53.520 loudest.

00:30:54.820 There was a huge

00:30:55.680 contingent of, of

00:30:56.800 protesters from,

00:30:58.700 or counter-protesters

00:30:59.420 from, you know,

00:31:00.440 KU, which is about

00:31:01.700 half an hour away

00:31:02.460 from the church.

00:31:03.580 Um, and so

00:31:06.040 yeah, and it

00:31:06.540 started, you

00:31:07.820 know, he, there

00:31:08.780 wasn't, really

00:31:09.220 wasn't much about

00:31:10.360 God initially, but

00:31:12.120 then when, you

00:31:12.820 know, these, when

00:31:13.640 these churches

00:31:13.980 started to

00:31:14.440 counter-protest,

00:31:15.040 they were like,

00:31:15.400 well, you know,

00:31:16.020 the Bible does

00:31:16.760 say things about

00:31:17.560 gays and it's

00:31:18.680 not good and we

00:31:20.440 are a church and

00:31:21.160 we have to, we

00:31:22.020 have to address

00:31:22.360 this issue.

00:31:23.760 Um, so that's,

00:31:25.340 that's how it

00:31:25.880 initially got

00:31:26.420 started and then

00:31:27.580 over the years it

00:31:29.340 just got more and

00:31:30.440 more extreme.

00:31:31.520 So first, you

00:31:32.620 know, gays were,

00:31:33.580 the target and

00:31:34.420 then it was

00:31:34.980 churches for

00:31:36.280 supporting gays

00:31:37.220 and otherwise,

00:31:38.240 you know, not

00:31:38.800 following what the,

00:31:40.060 what my grandfather

00:31:41.120 and the church

00:31:41.980 members believed.

00:31:43.200 Um, they weren't

00:31:44.200 following what the

00:31:44.780 Bible said, not

00:31:46.120 just about gays,

00:31:46.960 but about, you

00:31:47.700 know, premarital

00:31:48.280 sex and divorce and

00:31:49.860 remarriage and

00:31:50.700 adultery and, and

00:31:52.460 then pretty quickly,

00:31:53.760 um, the funeral

00:31:55.700 protesting started.

00:31:56.740 Um, they were

00:31:58.180 protesting, um, uh,

00:32:00.540 funerals of, uh, gay

00:32:02.140 people who had died

00:32:03.080 of AIDS.

00:32:03.960 Um, and it was,

00:32:06.320 um, partly an

00:32:07.740 attention getting

00:32:08.480 mechanism, but it

00:32:10.020 was never, it was

00:32:11.600 never just to get

00:32:12.680 attention.

00:32:13.660 Uh, I remember, and

00:32:14.800 this is something that

00:32:15.560 a lot of people, you

00:32:16.720 know, have charged the

00:32:17.380 church with.

00:32:17.860 Yes, they're, they're

00:32:18.380 not really Christian.

00:32:19.180 They don't really, they

00:32:20.240 don't really follow the

00:32:20.960 Bible.

00:32:21.300 Here, look, they

00:32:21.820 ignore this verse and

00:32:22.680 this verse and, but I

00:32:24.900 remember listening to my

00:32:25.720 grandfather, uh, in an

00:32:27.140 interview a few years

00:32:28.000 ago, and the reporter

00:32:30.420 said, some people say

00:32:31.600 that you're just doing

00:32:32.620 these things to get

00:32:33.420 attention.

00:32:34.600 And he kind of looked

00:32:35.640 at her like she was

00:32:36.540 crazy or stupid and

00:32:38.180 said, well, of course

00:32:40.560 I'm doing it to get

00:32:41.580 attention.

00:32:42.520 How can I preach to

00:32:43.780 these people if I don't

00:32:44.560 have their attention?

00:32:45.980 The charge that things

00:32:47.880 are done just to get

00:32:48.700 attention usually carries

00:32:49.860 with it the, the

00:32:51.280 insinuation that people

00:32:53.240 don't really believe

00:32:54.520 what they say they

00:32:55.180 believe, that these,

00:32:56.340 these expressions of,

00:32:57.800 of hatred are just, uh,

00:33:00.300 meant to be

00:33:00.820 inflammatory but aren't

00:33:02.040 necessarily, uh, an

00:33:03.780 honest statement of, uh,

00:33:05.720 one's outlook.

00:33:06.720 Was there any distance

00:33:08.180 between what you and the

00:33:10.640 rest of the family

00:33:11.360 believed and what you

00:33:12.300 were saying publicly, or

00:33:13.480 were you just simply

00:33:14.460 giving voice to, to

00:33:15.900 your actual worldview?

00:33:17.460 No, we were just

00:33:18.320 giving voice to our

00:33:19.280 actual worldview.

00:33:20.060 I mean, my family, uh,

00:33:22.500 didn't come to the

00:33:23.240 table with hatred for

00:33:24.920 LGBT people, uh, and

00:33:26.960 then, and then look to

00:33:28.240 the Bible to justify

00:33:29.140 that hatred, which is a

00:33:30.500 common charge.

00:33:31.920 Um, they read, if a

00:33:34.020 man also lie with

00:33:34.960 mankind as he lieth with

00:33:36.220 a woman, both of them

00:33:37.180 have committed

00:33:37.580 abomination.

00:33:38.280 They shall surely be

00:33:38.960 put to death.

00:33:39.680 Their blood shall be

00:33:40.260 upon them.

00:33:41.160 And walked away from

00:33:42.420 that with, and, you

00:33:43.980 know, not just that

00:33:44.640 verse, but lots of

00:33:45.400 other ones.

00:33:46.100 They walked away from

00:33:47.040 that with God hates

00:33:48.100 fags and supporting

00:33:49.560 the death penalty for

00:33:50.420 gays.

00:33:51.420 And to categorically

00:33:52.920 deny a connection

00:33:53.920 between those words

00:33:55.220 from Leviticus and

00:33:56.280 our beliefs to say

00:33:57.820 that we read into the

00:33:59.200 text what we wanted

00:33:59.900 to see is, is, I

00:34:02.480 think, to be blind to

00:34:04.180 the nearly all

00:34:05.020 encompassing power of

00:34:06.340 that sort of blinding

00:34:07.680 faith.

00:34:08.760 And it's, it's, it's,

00:34:10.220 that's why it was such

00:34:11.520 almost a relief, um, to

00:34:14.460 read in Graham Wood's

00:34:16.480 article, um, to say

00:34:19.060 that ISIS is

00:34:20.600 Islamic, very

00:34:21.940 Islamic, you know.

00:34:23.180 It's, it's not a

00:34:24.300 matter of ISIS being

00:34:25.600 representative of, you

00:34:27.680 know, Muslims as a

00:34:29.100 whole.

00:34:29.760 It's a matter of them

00:34:31.100 drawing inspiration

00:34:32.380 from the text.

00:34:34.140 Yeah, yeah.

00:34:34.780 And the church and

00:34:36.260 your grandfather

00:34:36.940 are sometimes

00:34:37.540 mentioned in this

00:34:39.040 connection.

00:34:39.840 So, so what I find,

00:34:41.400 uh, as someone who

00:34:42.320 criticizes the link

00:34:43.400 between religious

00:34:44.620 belief, in this

00:34:45.300 case, Muslim

00:34:46.860 jihadist ideas and

00:34:49.240 a phenomenon like

00:34:50.380 ISIS, I find that

00:34:51.980 that people who

00:34:53.360 don't like that

00:34:54.460 connection very much

00:34:55.740 will say, well, we

00:34:56.480 have our extremists,

00:34:57.940 we have the Westboro

00:34:58.860 Baptist Church.

00:34:59.740 Now, uh, it's

00:35:01.040 always a frustrating

00:35:02.000 thing to hear as

00:35:02.840 though what your

00:35:04.440 family has done is

00:35:06.000 in any way analogous

00:35:07.300 to what is happening

00:35:08.080 throughout, uh, much

00:35:09.960 of the Muslim world

00:35:10.680 and in particular, uh,

00:35:11.860 in Syria and Iraq

00:35:12.800 right now.

00:35:13.400 But you are, your

00:35:15.220 family's church is

00:35:17.000 often held out as

00:35:18.360 the most extreme

00:35:20.180 variant of

00:35:22.240 Christianity in, in

00:35:23.740 the West and in

00:35:25.320 particular in the

00:35:25.840 U.S.

00:35:26.760 I'm wondering if

00:35:27.440 that's true.

00:35:28.080 I actually don't, I'd

00:35:29.220 like to just find out

00:35:30.980 precisely what you

00:35:32.180 believed on other

00:35:33.180 topics.

00:35:33.620 So what, what are,

00:35:34.500 what are other

00:35:34.920 killing offenses?

00:35:35.740 What would you, or

00:35:36.660 what else would your

00:35:37.500 grandfather pull out

00:35:38.440 of Leviticus as, as

00:35:39.580 actionable?

00:35:40.340 I might say

00:35:40.860 adultery, but we, we

00:35:42.060 never, this was one,

00:35:42.820 again, this was one

00:35:43.580 of the things

00:35:44.040 that, that, um, so

00:35:46.860 I had, um, okay, for

00:35:49.360 one, they're not

00:35:50.060 actually trying to

00:35:50.980 institute a theocracy.

00:35:51.980 They don't believe

00:35:52.560 that, that the United

00:35:53.920 States, they, they

00:35:55.860 believe that the world

00:35:56.500 is going to end and

00:35:57.700 that only a tiny

00:35:59.000 remnant of humanity,

00:36:01.140 which is to say the

00:36:03.100 church itself and, but

00:36:04.720 only the, the true, uh,

00:36:06.880 the elect of God.

00:36:07.840 Um, so they're not

00:36:09.520 trying to actually

00:36:10.460 change the laws.

00:36:11.820 They're not actually

00:36:12.380 trying to make anything

00:36:14.060 happen with the

00:36:15.140 government.

00:36:15.660 They don't believe it's

00:36:16.380 possible and so it's

00:36:17.400 not something that they

00:36:18.020 pursue.

00:36:18.780 But that, that question

00:36:20.720 about death penalty for

00:36:22.380 bags, this was, that was

00:36:23.320 the very first point, um,

00:36:25.860 the very first real

00:36:27.000 question that I had

00:36:28.280 about our theology.

00:36:29.600 And when I say

00:36:29.920 question, I mean doubt.

00:36:31.220 The first thing I

00:36:31.800 realized that we were

00:36:33.100 wrong about, um, and it

00:36:35.020 came from a conversation

00:36:35.820 with a Jewish guy on

00:36:36.840 Twitter, um, it was

00:36:39.320 really, um, I mean, I'm

00:36:41.220 advocating for the death

00:36:42.140 penalty for gays and he,

00:36:44.020 you know, and I'm

00:36:44.440 quoting these verses from

00:36:46.160 Leviticus and, you know,

00:36:48.120 and he says, um, well,

00:36:50.680 what about this member of

00:36:52.240 your church who had a

00:36:53.560 child out of wedlock?

00:36:55.360 And, and I said, you

00:36:56.600 know, what about her?

00:36:57.400 She repented so she

00:36:58.620 doesn't deserve that

00:36:59.460 punishment.

00:37:00.260 And he said, he says,

00:37:02.100 yeah, but that, that's

00:37:03.040 also a sin worthy of

00:37:04.140 death.

00:37:04.520 And, you know, if, um,

00:37:07.080 and also didn't Jesus

00:37:08.020 say, let he who is

00:37:09.080 without sin cast the

00:37:10.340 first stone.

00:37:11.540 So this is the first

00:37:12.560 time, you know, stepping

00:37:13.900 back from that and

00:37:14.980 realizing, you know, if

00:37:16.160 she had been killed,

00:37:18.740 you know, just as if you

00:37:20.000 kill someone, as soon as

00:37:21.280 they sin, you completely

00:37:22.640 cut off the opportunity to

00:37:23.900 repent and be forgiven,

00:37:25.380 which is a major

00:37:26.780 foundation of Christian

00:37:27.760 theology.

00:37:28.360 This is, this is what we

00:37:29.660 were preaching, repent or

00:37:30.680 perish.

00:37:30.920 You have, you have to

00:37:32.280 repent and follow God's

00:37:34.080 laws and live as we

00:37:35.460 live.

00:37:36.180 And that's the only way

00:37:36.860 to heaven.

00:37:37.880 And then for him to say

00:37:39.160 that, you know, quoting

00:37:40.140 Jesus, let he who is

00:37:41.940 without sin cast the

00:37:42.760 first stone.

00:37:43.640 I, I realized, because

00:37:45.760 we would always answer

00:37:46.600 that, that quote, because

00:37:48.240 people would throw that

00:37:48.840 in our face all the

00:37:49.500 time.

00:37:50.140 We would answer that by

00:37:51.240 saying, yeah, but we're

00:37:52.460 not, we're not casting

00:37:54.200 stones.

00:37:54.880 We're preaching words.

00:37:56.340 All we have are words.

00:37:57.500 We put words on signs and

00:37:58.620 we stand on public

00:37:59.260 sidewalks.

00:37:59.780 We're not hurting

00:38:00.300 anybody.

00:38:00.700 Uh, but we were

00:38:02.640 advocating for the

00:38:03.260 government to kill

00:38:03.900 people.

00:38:04.360 And what was Jesus

00:38:05.720 talking about that, you

00:38:06.940 know, about there, if

00:38:07.980 not, um, if not the

00:38:10.540 death penalty.

00:38:11.680 So, you know, I take

00:38:13.220 that to, you know, my

00:38:14.600 mom and a few other

00:38:15.640 people in the church and

00:38:16.860 was just immediately

00:38:17.920 shut down.

00:38:18.860 It's like, no, Leviticus

00:38:20.180 calls for the death

00:38:20.940 penalty.

00:38:21.640 If that penalty was

00:38:22.620 good enough for God,

00:38:23.440 then it's good enough

00:38:24.000 for us.

00:38:24.900 Romans one says that

00:38:25.920 gays are worthy of

00:38:26.780 death and so are their

00:38:27.660 enablers.

00:38:28.620 No.

00:38:28.840 So, what did your

00:38:29.740 mom, uh, say about

00:38:31.300 the analogy to the

00:38:32.380 other member of your

00:38:32.960 family who had had a

00:38:34.180 child out of wedlock?

00:38:35.140 It's just that it, that

00:38:36.100 I was getting wrapped

00:38:36.780 around an axel.

00:38:37.960 Like, oh, this is just,

00:38:39.280 it's just not this, an

00:38:40.340 important piece of

00:38:41.300 theology or, or that,

00:38:43.020 that the point is

00:38:44.400 they're not going to do

00:38:45.200 it.

00:38:45.480 That's what she said.

00:38:46.820 And, and I remember

00:38:48.460 thinking like, well,

00:38:50.080 yeah, but if we're

00:38:50.740 going to use this as a

00:38:51.720 litmus test, the fact

00:38:53.360 that, you know,

00:38:54.040 instituting death

00:38:54.640 penalty, since Jesus

00:38:56.860 said, let he who is

00:38:57.880 without sin cast the

00:38:58.760 first stone, shouldn't

00:38:59.700 the litmus test be the

00:39:00.720 other direction?

00:39:01.980 Shouldn't the fact that

00:39:02.620 we don't do that be,

00:39:04.160 you know, showing that

00:39:05.600 we're obedient to God

00:39:06.740 and, and such.

00:39:08.200 So.

00:39:08.660 Well, one thing that I

00:39:09.460 think we should flag

00:39:10.260 here is that it's

00:39:12.060 often believed on the,

00:39:13.900 the atheist, secularist,

00:39:16.340 rationalist side of the

00:39:17.780 conversation that you

00:39:19.460 just can't reason people

00:39:20.920 out of their heartfelt

00:39:22.560 religious convictions

00:39:23.800 because there's this,

00:39:25.140 this meme that has gone

00:39:26.440 around, uh, often

00:39:28.080 attributed to, to

00:39:29.480 someone like Mark

00:39:30.420 Twain.

00:39:30.820 I don't know how

00:39:31.160 actually, I don't know

00:39:31.920 who actually said it,

00:39:32.840 but the idea is that

00:39:34.080 if you can't reason

00:39:35.080 somebody out of

00:39:35.920 something they didn't

00:39:36.640 reason themselves into

00:39:37.740 and, uh, but it's

00:39:39.560 clearly not true.

00:39:40.560 And, and anyone who's

00:39:41.760 actually been in dialogue

00:39:43.740 with, uh, with many

00:39:45.120 people like yourself

00:39:46.180 over the years knows

00:39:47.720 it's not true.

00:39:48.360 It's your effort to

00:39:49.980 make your beliefs

00:39:50.960 self-consistent.

00:39:51.880 And this person on

00:39:53.640 Twitter pointing out

00:39:54.700 a contrad, a logical

00:39:55.800 contradiction in your

00:39:57.340 beliefs was, uh, an

00:39:59.480 entering wedge for you

00:40:00.780 which ultimately

00:40:02.380 separated you from, from

00:40:04.680 these ideas that had

00:40:05.600 been drummed into you.

00:40:06.760 So I want to get into

00:40:07.920 what you, what you now

00:40:09.000 believe in a minute,

00:40:09.700 but I want to linger

00:40:10.660 for a moment.

00:40:12.920 In 2019, I spoke with

00:40:15.220 Sam on Making Sense

00:40:16.300 again around the time

00:40:17.820 of the release of my

00:40:18.660 book.

00:40:18.960 The way I now conceive

00:40:20.980 of those old beliefs

00:40:22.000 is something like this.

00:40:23.880 They made complete sense

00:40:25.120 to me at the time,

00:40:26.540 within a context of

00:40:27.820 assumptions that I took

00:40:28.800 to be unquestionable.

00:40:30.720 Specifically, that the

00:40:31.800 Bible was literally true

00:40:33.080 and that the interpretation

00:40:34.660 by the Westboro Baptist

00:40:35.720 Church was completely

00:40:37.020 accurate.

00:40:38.360 I took those claims

00:40:39.340 about reality as

00:40:40.320 givens, and I was

00:40:41.540 operating in a world

00:40:42.580 where they were solid

00:40:43.460 facts.

00:40:45.040 Sam's reflection that

00:40:46.180 bad ideas are a much

00:40:47.560 bigger problem than bad

00:40:48.780 people resonates deeply

00:40:50.560 with me.

00:40:52.040 With the rules of the

00:40:52.900 world that I assumed

00:40:53.860 myself to be in, I had

00:40:55.740 all good intentions and

00:40:57.160 was trying my utmost to

00:40:58.460 be a good person.

00:40:59.980 This may seem like an

00:41:01.200 odd claim given how

00:41:02.460 hateful my behavior

00:41:03.460 appears from the

00:41:04.280 outside, and it's

00:41:05.720 challenging for some

00:41:06.560 people to fully

00:41:07.240 comprehend.

00:41:08.900 When I revisit my

00:41:09.840 behavior, I fully

00:41:11.100 understand that I did

00:41:12.240 not have a broken brain

00:41:13.520 that was causing my

00:41:14.360 actions, and my family

00:41:16.060 members, who are

00:41:16.880 behaving in similar

00:41:17.940 ways, nearly all of

00:41:19.500 them continuing with

00:41:20.460 that behavior still,

00:41:22.180 also don't have

00:41:22.980 broken brains.

00:41:24.720 There is an

00:41:25.260 unignorable,

00:41:26.280 determinative variable

00:41:27.580 causing that

00:41:28.380 behavior, and it's

00:41:29.920 their belief about

00:41:31.080 reality.

00:41:32.600 Now, of course, that

00:41:33.580 belief is not the only

00:41:34.860 variable resulting in

00:41:36.060 their behavior.

00:41:37.180 There are many

00:41:38.000 complex psychological

00:41:39.240 factors on the table.

00:41:41.080 Things like loyalty to

00:41:42.140 family, fear of

00:41:43.600 ostracization, financial

00:41:45.680 dependency, reactionary

00:41:47.560 personalities, and so

00:41:49.100 much more.

00:41:50.740 But Sam emphasizes and

00:41:52.240 insists that belief, and

00:41:54.040 specific beliefs, must be

00:41:56.100 acknowledged as causes of

00:41:57.460 specific outward behavior.

00:41:59.540 While this may seem

00:42:00.420 uncontroversial and

00:42:01.480 obvious, the implications

00:42:03.160 have become politically

00:42:04.200 radioactive, given the

00:42:05.760 tension with competing

00:42:06.740 principles like tolerance of

00:42:08.340 other cultures, ideas,

00:42:10.340 belief systems, and

00:42:11.280 identities.

00:42:11.660 Before I build the

00:42:13.600 fourth wall again and

00:42:14.860 morph back from included

00:42:16.160 guest to narrator, I

00:42:17.860 want to underline a

00:42:18.760 contrast between my

00:42:19.920 shedding of belief with

00:42:21.100 Sarah Hayter's.

00:42:22.520 It's hard to know what

00:42:23.600 other collisions with

00:42:24.680 criticism and challenge to

00:42:26.100 my beliefs would have

00:42:27.020 resulted in, but what

00:42:28.720 ended up pushing me to a

00:42:30.120 close examination and

00:42:31.820 eventual collapse of the

00:42:33.160 first principal claims I

00:42:34.460 held was not so much an

00:42:36.220 aggressive, militant

00:42:37.580 atheism approach with

00:42:38.760 mockery and insult, but

00:42:40.620 rather a steady, prolonged

00:42:42.160 conversation and exposure

00:42:43.640 to very patient

00:42:44.660 conversation partners.

00:42:46.760 Many of those

00:42:47.360 conversations happened on

00:42:48.600 Twitter.

00:42:49.480 We have a compilation

00:42:50.380 dedicated to Sam's

00:42:51.620 interest in social media,

00:42:53.360 which we recommend in

00:42:54.460 light of the unique role

00:42:55.460 that that plays in my

00:42:56.400 story.

00:42:57.520 But now, let's go to

00:42:58.920 another personal account

00:43:00.120 of someone leaving a

00:43:01.220 faith system.

00:43:06.560 This account will give

00:43:07.960 air to some of the

00:43:08.900 psychological variables that

00:43:10.500 we've alluded to that

00:43:11.620 can entrench people in

00:43:12.800 belief systems and

00:43:13.720 religious ideology.

00:43:15.520 This guest's

00:43:16.320 reconsideration of her

00:43:17.580 belief system is absent

00:43:19.020 the encounters with

00:43:20.020 teenage militant atheists

00:43:21.460 or patient, logical

00:43:23.100 deliberations conducted on

00:43:24.500 social media, but is

00:43:26.220 instead interwoven with

00:43:27.700 familial complexities,

00:43:29.540 insecurities, fears, and

00:43:31.560 abuses.

00:43:32.780 But even with these

00:43:34.280 variables highlighted in the

00:43:35.760 brew of ideological

00:43:36.720 trappings, the doctrines and

00:43:38.780 details of the belief system

00:43:40.300 still matter and must be

00:43:42.180 considered.

00:43:43.560 We're also going to let

00:43:45.000 this clip drift into the

00:43:46.360 frustration that certain

00:43:47.540 women feel with a

00:43:49.040 perceived political shield

00:43:50.500 of criticism towards

00:43:51.660 religious ideology,

00:43:53.280 especially those religious

00:43:54.480 ideologies that tend to

00:43:55.880 overlay with specific

00:43:57.440 racial and or national

00:43:59.600 demographics.

00:44:00.660 This is the exact kind of

00:44:02.480 political taboo that Sam and

00:44:04.260 many of the labeled new

00:44:05.580 atheists were unafraid to

00:44:07.400 trespass.

00:44:09.060 After this clip, we'll

00:44:10.520 shift the conversation

00:44:11.500 towards the abstract and

00:44:12.980 philosophical notions of

00:44:14.300 belief and examine various

00:44:16.180 approaches towards

00:44:17.080 knowledge that might help us

00:44:18.440 navigate our way through

00:44:19.460 this topic and propose some

00:44:21.260 defining characteristics of

00:44:22.720 belief.

00:44:24.040 But first, here is the

00:44:25.520 activist and author Yasmin

00:44:26.960 Muhammad sharing her story

00:44:28.740 with Sam from episode 175,

00:44:31.540 Leaving the Faith.

00:44:32.360 Let's just start with your

00:44:35.580 story from the beginning.

00:44:37.140 Where did you come from and

00:44:39.000 what were your parents like

00:44:40.800 and what was your

00:44:41.960 upbringing like?

00:44:42.680 This is the beginning of

00:44:44.100 your story that has, for

00:44:45.940 better or worse, made you

00:44:46.940 one of the most courageous

00:44:47.880 voices I can name at the

00:44:49.540 moment.

00:44:50.480 So to the beginning, I

00:44:52.400 guess, would be my parents

00:44:53.300 meeting each other in

00:44:54.420 university in Egypt.

00:44:55.880 So my dad's from Palestine

00:44:57.420 and my mom is Egyptian.

00:44:59.560 But Palestinians could go to

00:45:01.180 university in Egypt.

00:45:02.360 It was all covered.

00:45:03.240 Like, they were treated as

00:45:04.260 Egyptians, but they weren't

00:45:05.140 given citizenship.

00:45:06.680 So they met in university in

00:45:08.140 Egypt and my mother's family

00:45:10.380 were very angry at her for

00:45:12.540 marrying a Palestinian because

00:45:14.000 they thought he was so

00:45:14.880 beneath her.

00:45:16.020 But they got married and then

00:45:17.040 they moved to San Francisco

00:45:17.940 together.

00:45:19.420 And they were there during the

00:45:20.840 peace, love, hippie era.

00:45:23.740 And they had my sister.

00:45:25.660 And it was a bit too much

00:45:26.540 peace and love.

00:45:27.720 And so my mom wanted, like, a

00:45:29.100 quieter place to raise the

00:45:31.100 kids.

00:45:32.100 And so then they moved to

00:45:33.380 Vancouver, Canada.

00:45:35.260 And that's where I was born.

00:45:36.960 But then their marriage fell

00:45:38.500 apart in the end anyway.

00:45:39.760 So when I was about two years

00:45:40.660 old, my dad, you know, left

00:45:43.860 us, went to the other side of

00:45:45.020 the country.

00:45:46.440 So here my mom is now in a new

00:45:48.940 country, no support system, no

00:45:51.460 community, three children.

00:45:53.280 And she's feeling, you know,

00:45:55.880 depressed, vulnerable, sad,

00:45:58.020 lonely, all that stuff.

00:45:59.140 And how religious were they at

00:46:00.700 this point?

00:46:01.320 No religiosity whatsoever.

00:46:02.880 Neither of them.

00:46:04.020 They both grew up very secular.

00:46:07.740 My dad had, like, zero connection

00:46:10.200 to religion.

00:46:10.880 It was just, like, a cultural

00:46:11.820 thing.

00:46:12.820 He was very anti-Israel, just being

00:46:14.440 Palestinian, but there's no

00:46:15.600 religious, like, him personally.

00:46:18.360 He wasn't very, he wasn't

00:46:19.920 practicing.

00:46:20.320 And then my mom's all alone.

00:46:22.620 And so she goes looking for a

00:46:24.020 support system.

00:46:24.680 And she goes looking at the

00:46:26.760 mosque for a community.

00:46:28.980 And at the mosque, she finds a

00:46:30.580 man who is already married,

00:46:32.640 already has three children, but he

00:46:35.040 offers to take my mom on as his

00:46:36.780 second concurrent wife.

00:46:38.900 Right.

00:46:39.780 So, you know, she is happy to have

00:46:43.380 somebody take care of her and take

00:46:44.960 care of her kids.

00:46:45.960 And so she's willing to put up with

00:46:47.760 whatever he's dishing out.

00:46:50.980 My dad was abusive towards her.

00:46:52.560 He used to hit her.

00:46:54.240 And this man never hit her.

00:46:56.260 He'd hit us, of course, but he

00:46:58.120 never hit her.

00:46:59.240 So she felt like this was a better

00:47:02.200 relationship for her.

00:47:03.880 So she stayed with him as a second

00:47:07.260 concurrent wife.

00:47:07.980 We lived in his basement.

00:47:09.880 And he is very, like, my life

00:47:11.800 changed completely when he entered

00:47:14.100 our lives.

00:47:14.640 So before him, I used to be able

00:47:17.880 to, you know, play with my

00:47:19.540 neighbor's friends.

00:47:20.460 Like, we'd play Barbies together.

00:47:22.100 I'd go swimming.

00:47:22.940 I'd ride my bike.

00:47:23.900 I'd go to birthday parties, listen

00:47:26.520 to music, just like a normal

00:47:28.860 childhood.

00:47:29.700 And then once he entered our lives,

00:47:31.900 it was just immediate.

00:47:34.640 Everything is haram.

00:47:35.900 Everything is forbidden.

00:47:36.780 And all of a sudden, my mom started

00:47:38.940 covering her hair.

00:47:40.200 And we had to start reading from

00:47:41.840 this book of this, you know, these

00:47:43.840 words that I didn't understand.

00:47:45.420 And I had to start praying five

00:47:46.620 times a day.

00:47:47.960 And I resisted it from the

00:47:49.480 beginning.

00:47:50.780 Of course, I missed my old life.

00:47:52.440 I was especially upset that I

00:47:53.720 couldn't play with Chelsea and

00:47:54.840 Lindsay anymore.

00:47:56.080 They'd always come knocking on the

00:47:57.160 door wanting to play Barbies.

00:47:58.440 And we never, I was never allowed

00:47:59.920 to go.

00:48:00.740 And they were never allowed in.

00:48:02.800 And...

00:48:03.000 You're going to the same school at

00:48:04.180 this point, or...

00:48:05.400 Yep.

00:48:06.100 But not for long.

00:48:07.620 Then I got, as soon as the

00:48:09.300 Islamic school was...

00:48:11.560 I mean, it wasn't built.

00:48:12.420 It was in the mosque.

00:48:13.280 But as soon as it was established

00:48:14.440 that we would have an Islamic school,

00:48:17.620 and my mom was teaching in it,

00:48:18.900 then I started going there.

00:48:20.960 Was this associated with any

00:48:22.780 religious awakening on your mom's

00:48:25.500 part, or she just needed a man to

00:48:27.500 take care of her, and it was just

00:48:28.640 practical and romantic?

00:48:32.140 Well, I don't know if romantic is

00:48:33.640 part of it.

00:48:34.000 I think practical for sure.

00:48:35.660 And it was a combination of both of

00:48:38.840 those things.

00:48:39.900 So she needed, I think, she was happy

00:48:42.660 to have somebody to take care of her.

00:48:44.640 But then also she just became a full-on

00:48:47.440 born-again Muslim.

00:48:49.300 So she just entered it, like, she just

00:48:51.620 jumped all in.

00:48:53.700 It was never, you know, if you see her

00:48:55.820 wedding photos, she looked like a Bond

00:48:57.480 girl.

00:48:57.880 Like, short wedding dress, big huge

00:49:00.120 beehive, you know, there was a belly

00:49:01.680 dancer at her wedding.

00:49:03.260 And to go from that to the woman that

00:49:05.760 raised me that I remember is just a

00:49:08.060 pretty shocking difference.

00:49:10.380 And I used to always, you know, resent

00:49:13.660 that.

00:49:14.140 I'd be like, how come you got freedom?

00:49:15.580 How come you got to live like this?

00:49:16.780 Look at your pictures when you were a

00:49:18.440 kid.

00:49:18.740 You know, how come I don't get that

00:49:19.620 life?

00:49:20.480 And she'd say, because my parents didn't

00:49:22.380 know any better.

00:49:23.480 And I'm raising you better.

00:49:25.960 And you're going to be a better person.

00:49:27.080 And you're going to go to heaven.

00:49:28.060 And my parents did the best they could,

00:49:29.700 but they were wrong.

00:49:31.160 And so how old are you when you're

00:49:32.600 expressing these doubts?

00:49:35.140 Well, I was about, you know, about six

00:49:36.880 years old when he entered our life.

00:49:38.660 And I just, I resisted all the way up at

00:49:40.780 probably about nine years old is when I

00:49:43.040 stopped, because that's when the hijab

00:49:45.540 was put on me.

00:49:46.360 And I started going to Islamic school and

00:49:47.940 it was just too much.

00:49:49.360 So you can't really fight anymore when

00:49:51.560 everything in your life is, you know,

00:49:54.180 pushing you in one direction.

00:49:55.340 You just, you know, succumb, especially

00:49:57.280 when you're a kid.

00:49:58.400 But according to my mom, I was never,

00:50:01.300 you know, good enough.

00:50:02.640 The devil was always whispering in my

00:50:04.200 ear and making me question.

00:50:06.160 I always asked questions, right?

00:50:07.720 Like, if Allah created everything, who

00:50:09.540 created Allah and stuff like that?

00:50:11.400 Like, how could I even?

00:50:12.380 These are such blasphemous, you know.

00:50:14.960 If Adam and Eve are, you know, the

00:50:16.880 parents of all people, are we all

00:50:18.380 children of incest?

00:50:20.000 So these basic questions of, you know,

00:50:21.760 that a kid would ask, I'd get in

00:50:23.200 trouble for them.

00:50:24.560 So was there any point where you just

00:50:26.760 went hook, line, and sinker and

00:50:29.160 fully adopted the worldview without

00:50:31.800 doubt?

00:50:32.860 Did you, or did you always have some

00:50:34.400 doubt humming in the background?

00:50:36.980 The, the doubt humming in the

00:50:38.260 background finally went quiet once I

00:50:42.240 was forced into the marriage with

00:50:44.480 Haysom.

00:50:45.600 So once I married him and I wore

00:50:49.740 naqab, so that's like full face

00:50:51.740 covering, the gloves, everything, I

00:50:54.700 was so diminished that I didn't have

00:50:58.800 anything left.

00:51:00.420 There was, and I also kind of made the

00:51:02.520 conscious decision that, I mean, I

00:51:05.280 was desperate for my mom's love and

00:51:06.800 approval.

00:51:07.600 My sister was always the good girl

00:51:08.920 that always listened and never

00:51:10.920 questioned and, and my, I wanted that.

00:51:14.780 I wanted to have, you know, that

00:51:17.220 relationship with my mom.

00:51:19.560 So she kept on pressuring me to marry

00:51:22.040 this man and I eventually gave in

00:51:23.760 because I thought, you know what,

00:51:25.040 maybe she'll actually love me if I

00:51:27.220 follow what she wants me to do.

00:51:29.520 I'll marry the man she tells me to

00:51:31.080 marry.

00:51:31.540 I'll do everything the way she says to

00:51:33.300 do it.

00:51:33.640 I've been fighting against this my

00:51:34.800 whole life.

00:51:35.440 What happens if I just let go and see

00:51:37.480 if she's actually right?

00:51:39.900 And how old are you at this point?

00:51:41.900 So I'm a 20 and I did let go and I

00:51:47.080 did follow exactly what she said.

00:51:49.640 And until I had my daughter and held

00:51:55.740 her in my arms and saw that she was

00:51:59.080 about to grow up in the same

00:52:00.960 environment that I grew up in, my mom

00:52:03.060 was talking to her the same way she had

00:52:04.860 talked to me.

00:52:05.840 Her father was talking about FGM and

00:52:09.720 her dying a martyr for a law and things

00:52:12.980 like, and I'm like, okay, enough.

00:52:15.860 You know, I'm not, I could maybe accept

00:52:18.440 this world for myself, but I'm not

00:52:19.880 going to accept it for my daughter.

00:52:20.980 There's no way she's going to live this

00:52:22.320 same life.

00:52:23.220 And was he Egyptian?

00:52:24.580 Yeah.

00:52:25.140 Yeah.

00:52:25.820 And I think people aren't generally

00:52:28.180 aware that FGM is practiced in Egypt.

00:52:31.720 Like 98% of Egyptian women.

00:52:33.600 So it's basically like Somalia in terms

00:52:35.320 of the prevalence of that practice.

00:52:38.040 So, and this was just a fully arranged

00:52:41.240 marriage or it had been encouraged once

00:52:43.940 you had met him?

00:52:44.540 So it wasn't fully arranged in that I

00:52:48.420 didn't know I was going to marry him my

00:52:49.840 whole life.

00:52:50.400 Sometimes people arrange marriages for

00:52:52.020 their kids, like from the get-go, but it

00:52:54.260 was definitely a forced marriage, which

00:52:56.220 is a very common thing in the Arab world.

00:53:00.180 So it's like, this is the man we want

00:53:02.240 you to marry.

00:53:03.060 And then you basically just get introduced

00:53:05.180 to him.

00:53:06.600 And the woman doesn't need to consent.

00:53:10.140 Like in Islam, it says silence is consent.

00:53:12.940 So if you just sit there and cry, it's

00:53:15.960 like, okay, we're good.

00:53:17.160 Yeah.

00:53:18.100 You're now, you know, that's like saying

00:53:20.880 I do.

00:53:22.440 And so it was, you know, you get pressured

00:53:26.380 into it in the same way you get pressured

00:53:28.480 into everything else.

00:53:30.340 So it's just like wearing the hijab and you

00:53:32.140 get given two choices.

00:53:34.920 Like, do you want to go to heaven or do you

00:53:36.780 want to go to hell?

00:53:37.520 Do you want to be a good, pure, clean girl?

00:53:39.300 Or do you want to be a filthy whore?

00:53:41.260 Like, these are your choices.

00:53:42.720 Make the right choice.

00:53:44.340 So forcing you into a marriage is similar

00:53:46.720 kind of coercion.

00:53:49.080 So it would be things like, there's a

00:53:51.320 hadith that says, heaven is at the feet

00:53:53.560 of your mothers.

00:53:54.320 So your mother gets to decide whether you're

00:53:56.260 going to go to heaven or not.

00:53:57.740 So this was the one that was used all the

00:54:00.000 time.

00:54:00.800 And it's a very dangerous weapon for an

00:54:02.880 abusive mother to have.

00:54:05.160 So she would use that one.

00:54:06.420 She'd say, you're never going to go to

00:54:07.780 heaven unless I approve you to enter

00:54:10.980 heaven.

00:54:11.740 And if you don't marry this man, you will

00:54:14.480 never go to heaven.

00:54:15.620 You will burn in hell for eternity.

00:54:17.780 And you will suffer here on earth because

00:54:19.740 you are no longer my daughter.

00:54:21.460 I want nothing to do with you.

00:54:23.720 I won't even allow you to come to my

00:54:25.240 funeral because I don't, like, as far as

00:54:27.560 anyone is concerned, you're no longer my

00:54:29.840 family.

00:54:31.200 And then when you die, you'll burn in hell

00:54:32.660 for eternity.

00:54:33.460 So go ahead and make the choice.

00:54:35.120 Yeah.

00:54:35.880 Yeah.

00:54:36.420 Yeah.

00:54:37.140 So, and you're wearing the niqab at this

00:54:39.380 point?

00:54:39.680 At what point did that happen?

00:54:40.900 Hijab was at nine years old, you know, as

00:54:43.280 far as I could remember.

00:54:44.520 And then once I was engaged to him, started

00:54:48.460 wearing the niqab, he got it all delivered

00:54:50.360 from Saudi Arabia.

00:54:53.440 And that really helps in dehumanizing you.

00:54:58.740 That really helps in turning me into a

00:55:01.960 nothing that he can control very easily.

00:55:04.200 It just suppresses your humanity entirely.

00:55:07.960 It's like a portable sensory deprivation

00:55:10.820 chamber.

00:55:12.200 And you are no longer connected to humanity.

00:55:15.680 You can't see properly.

00:55:17.060 You can't hear properly.

00:55:18.080 You can't speak properly.

00:55:19.640 People can't see you.

00:55:21.120 You can only see them.

00:55:22.760 I mean, just little things like passing people

00:55:25.680 in the street and just making eye contact and

00:55:28.720 smiling.

00:55:29.120 Like, that's gone.

00:55:30.120 You're no longer part of this world.

00:55:33.060 And so you very, very quickly just shrivel up

00:55:35.800 into nothing under there.

00:55:37.900 Yeah.

00:55:38.080 Well, we're going to get to this, but it is

00:55:39.600 amazing how sanguine Western feminists are

00:55:44.100 around this practice.

00:55:45.640 Like, this is just another culture's ideal of how to

00:55:50.320 honor feminine beauty and empower women.

00:55:53.620 Who are we to criticize it?

00:55:55.360 We should differentiate the hijab from the

00:55:57.560 niqab.

00:55:58.780 The hijab is just a straight-up symbol of female

00:56:01.900 empowerment now in the West.

00:56:04.220 It is just amazing to see what is being done with

00:56:06.800 this.

00:56:07.020 And we have, you know, in the aftermath of the

00:56:08.800 Christchurch massacre, the Prime Minister of New

00:56:13.400 Zealand puts it on as the only possible show of

00:56:17.100 respect for the community.

00:56:18.900 Like, there's just no other way to express

00:56:21.640 solidarity but to don the symbol.

00:56:25.560 And there's so many examples of this.

00:56:28.620 For some reason, people, one, can't see that

00:56:31.680 most of the women on Earth right now who are

00:56:34.480 wearing a hijab are not doing it based on some

00:56:37.800 empowerment they felt at an Ivy League institution

00:56:40.880 where they're just going to take the male gaze off

00:56:43.240 them at their own discretion.

00:56:45.240 So they're forced to do it.

00:56:46.720 The consequences of not doing it in many cases

00:56:49.240 are, if not absolutely coercive social pressure,

00:56:53.280 it's actually physical violence.

00:56:55.380 What have your encounters with Western feminists

00:56:58.360 been like?

00:56:58.900 Well, that makes me really sad that they consider

00:57:02.960 Muslim women to be of some other species and that

00:57:07.020 are so completely different from them.

00:57:09.240 So for themselves, they will recognize all of those

00:57:13.120 things that you talked about are basically

00:57:15.620 victim blaming, you know, slut shaming.

00:57:19.620 They recognize those elements of rape culture

00:57:22.260 when we're in the Western context, which are, you

00:57:25.140 know, they're much harder to see in the Western

00:57:27.380 context.

00:57:29.000 But under Sharia, it's very, very easy to clearly

00:57:34.340 see a perfect example of rape culture, but they

00:57:40.460 somehow, when it's those women over there, it's

00:57:45.840 empowering.

00:57:46.940 Like, would it be empowering for you if you were

00:57:49.700 told you have to wear this clothing in order to protect

00:57:53.540 yourself from men who might rape you?

00:57:55.520 Or you have to wear this clothing in order to be good and

00:57:58.360 pure and go to heaven?

00:58:00.020 Because if you don't wear it, then you're a filthy

00:58:02.060 whore.

00:58:03.560 Like, you wouldn't, no woman would want to hear that.

00:58:06.760 No seven-year-old child would like to be told, you have

00:58:10.260 to wear this in order to go to school.

00:58:12.360 And your brother doesn't have to.

00:58:13.580 He can wear whatever he wants.

00:58:14.600 But you must wear this or you're not allowed to get

00:58:17.900 educated.

00:58:19.080 It is an atrocity.

00:58:21.400 Like, that's something that every human being should be

00:58:25.640 upset about.

00:58:26.760 And the fact that they think that it's okay for those

00:58:31.060 humans over there, but not for us, is the part that

00:58:35.300 really upsets me.

00:58:36.440 Yeah.

00:58:37.160 Yeah, the double standard is so clear.

00:58:41.340 And it really is sanity straining that it's so hard for

00:58:45.380 people to see.

00:58:46.240 So, like, the clearest case for me in the media was when, I

00:58:50.960 don't even remember this, but Warren Jeffs, the leader of

00:58:54.160 the FLDS, the Fundamentalist Mormon Cult, his compound was

00:58:58.740 raided.

00:58:59.400 And all these little girls and young women were led out in

00:59:03.620 these little house-on-the-prairie dresses, right?

00:59:06.120 They were made to wear these awful 18th-century dresses.

00:59:09.520 And they had been married to men who were, you know, their

00:59:13.180 grandfather's ages.

00:59:14.060 And these forced marriages were described as rapes.

00:59:19.220 And the men were totally unrepentant.

00:59:21.840 And, you know, Jeffs got, I think he's at least 15 years in

00:59:25.540 prison.

00:59:26.020 I forget, he got a real prison sentence.

00:59:29.060 And this was all talked about on the news as just an

00:59:33.440 unambiguous example of patriarchal exploitation of girls.

00:59:39.480 The fact that it was associated with religious belief was not

00:59:42.980 even slightly exculpatory.

00:59:45.500 And everyone celebrated the fact that there was a SWAT team raid on

00:59:49.820 the compound.

00:59:51.000 We kicked in the door of this place to free those girls.

00:59:55.260 And it didn't matter at all that the girls didn't want to be

00:59:58.320 freed.

00:59:58.820 I mean, we knew they had been brainwashed.

01:00:00.400 So when they're talking about how they loved their husband for to a

01:00:03.580 man or whatever it was, no one had any qualm discounting that for their

01:00:10.060 obvious ignorance and brainwashing, right?

01:00:12.320 And when you compare that to what is happening routinely in the Muslim

01:00:16.800 world, the mainstream media has the opposite response.

01:00:20.380 And this is the most benign case of real extremism in the Muslim world.

01:00:27.860 I mean, it's, you know, in truth, it's not even extreme, but the extremism in the

01:00:32.140 Muslim world, you have to add to that the clitorectomies that would have been

01:00:35.660 performed on these girls.

01:00:37.040 The fact that they were raising their sons to be suicide bombers, right?

01:00:42.260 And there was an explicit indoctrination of, you know, martyrdom and they were

01:00:46.860 exporting terrorism to the capitals of Europe and America.

01:00:51.260 That's how the fundamentalist Mormon cult would have to behave to make it an

01:00:55.080 analogous situation.

01:00:57.200 And no one can see it on the left.

01:01:00.680 So, I mean, when you were talking about the difference between that Mormon cult and

01:01:05.640 girls in the Muslim world, I started to tear up because it reminded me of your TED

01:01:10.320 talk, which I'm going to tear up again, that TED talk to me hit me so hard because it

01:01:18.480 was the first time anybody in like media I'd ever heard somebody care about those

01:01:31.120 girls the same way you would care about any other girls.

01:01:35.900 Like, the argument you were making in that TED talk, like, these girls in

01:01:40.360 Afghanistan, why are they different than the girls from the Mormon cult?

01:01:50.400 Sorry, Sam.

01:01:51.240 No, that's great.

01:01:51.760 That TED talk was late.

01:01:52.820 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:54.500 Thank you so much.

01:01:57.100 That's, uh, you don't have to apologize.

01:02:00.200 This is good radio.

01:02:00.900 At the end of that clip, you heard Yasmeen make reference to a TED talk that Sam delivered.

01:02:14.440 That talk compressed his argument against moral subjectivism, an argument he fully lays out

01:02:20.120 in his book, The Moral Landscape.

01:02:22.840 That topic is explored deeply in our compilation on morality, but you can appreciate how intimately

01:02:28.620 it's related to the delegated issue.

01:02:30.920 If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at

01:02:34.760 samharris.org.

01:02:36.160 Once you do, you'll get access to all full-length episodes of the Making Sense podcast, along

01:02:40.660 with other subscriber-only content, including bonus episodes and AMAs and the conversations

01:02:46.160 I've been having on the Waking Up app.

01:02:48.300 The Making Sense podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support.

01:02:52.860 And you can subscribe now at samharris.org.

01:02:58.620 Thank you.

01:03:04.760 Thank you.

01:03:07.000 Thank you.

01:03:08.500 Thank you.

01:03:09.500 Thank you.

Making Sense - Sam Harris - March 15, 2023

Making Sense of Belief and Unbelief ｜ Episode 6 of The Essential Sam Harris

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