Making Sense - Sam Harris - Making Sense of Meditation ｜ Episode 10 of The Essential Sam Harris

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.820 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.880 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber

00:00:14.680 feed and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation.

00:00:18.420 In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at

00:00:22.720 samharris.org.

00:00:24.060 There you'll find our private RSS feed to add to your favorite podcatcher, along with

00:00:28.360 other subscriber-only content.

00:00:30.520 We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support

00:00:34.640 of our subscribers.

00:00:35.900 So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one.

00:00:48.720 Welcome to The Essential Sam Harris.

00:00:51.800 This is Making Sense of Meditation and Eastern Spirituality.

00:00:56.360 The goal of this series is to organize, compile, and juxtapose conversations hosted by Sam

00:01:03.380 Harris into specific areas of interest.

00:01:06.700 This is an ongoing effort to construct a coherent overview of Sam's perspectives and arguments,

00:01:12.440 the various explorations and approaches to the topic, the relevant agreements and disagreements,

00:01:18.780 and the pushbacks and evolving thoughts which his guests have advanced.

00:01:22.240 The purpose of these compilations is not to provide a complete picture of any issue, but

00:01:29.320 to entice you to go deeper into these subjects.

00:01:32.560 Along the way, we'll point you to the full episodes with each featured guest.

00:01:37.240 And at the conclusion, we'll offer some reading, listening, and watching suggestions, which range

00:01:42.740 from fun and light to densely academic.

00:01:45.140 One note to keep in mind for this series, Sam has long argued for a unity of knowledge where

00:01:52.500 the barriers between fields of study are viewed as largely unhelpful artifacts of unnecessarily

00:01:57.980 partitioned thought.

00:01:59.500 The pursuit of wisdom and reason in one area of study naturally bleeds into, and greatly

00:02:05.120 affects, others.

00:02:06.240 You'll hear plenty of crossover into other topics as these dives into the archives unfold.

00:02:12.720 And your thinking about a particular topic may shift as you realize its contingent relationships

00:02:17.680 with others.

00:02:20.380 In this topic, you'll hear the natural overlap with theories of identity and the self, consciousness,

00:02:27.120 belief and unbelief, and death.

00:02:29.380 So, get ready, let's make sense of meditation and Eastern spirituality.

00:02:40.180 The topic of this compilation is arguably the one that is closest to Sam's heart, so it's

00:02:46.240 only fitting that it serves as the conclusion to this series.

00:02:50.140 There are at least 20 conversations in the Making Sense archive that could have been included

00:02:55.140 here, and we'll be sure to point you to some of those in the final recommendations.

00:02:59.380 Sam eventually launched a standalone platform completely dedicated to the practice of meditation

00:03:06.020 and mindfulness, called Waking Up.

00:03:09.860 It goes without saying that we encourage you to check that out if any of this piques your

00:03:14.680 interest.

00:03:16.600 This particular compilation will be curated towards the meditation novice, or even the meditation

00:03:22.340 skeptic.

00:03:23.520 Though fresh perspectives and revisits to the fundamentals are always valuable, even for a well-practiced

00:03:29.160 listener who is already convinced by the practice.

00:03:33.240 In fact, in many ways, so much of the entire practice of meditation is all about returning

00:03:38.980 to the basic, apparent, obvious, and discoverable truths which are always available to access.

00:03:45.420 In all of the concepts we'll be discussing, one is constantly rediscovering the hidden surface

00:03:52.560 of an obvious truth, but once that surface is felt, one can plunge to new depths of exploration

00:03:59.000 as the practices and techniques become more habitual and familiar.

00:04:02.820 The whole idea of meditation strikes some as intimidating and daunting, or even pretentious and pseudo-religious.

00:04:14.360 Some of Sam's listeners who are initially attracted to his political and moral analysis, and enjoy

00:04:20.260 his sharp critiques of religious dogma, can be a bit baffled by his interest in, and promotion

00:04:25.900 of this practice.

00:04:28.580 Deep investigations of meditation force one to dance around vaguely spiritual concepts

00:04:34.380 that often flirt with insights espoused within compromised religious traditions.

00:04:40.720 And more recently, the public arena of meditation has become saturated with the confusing amount

00:04:46.660 of hype and fluff about productivity and efficiency, goal-obsessed versions of mindfulness,

00:04:53.760 all of which Sam goes to great lengths to distinguish himself from.

00:04:58.880 What we hope you'll hear in this compilation is an easy, open, and sometimes humorous invitation.

00:05:06.700 We hope to provide an admittedly overly simplified presentation of the concepts and techniques

00:05:12.980 that Sam insists carry with them profound insights and opportunities to pay closer attention to

00:05:19.980 the experience of experience itself.

00:05:24.140 Sam's book Waking Up is his most relevant outline of an atheistic approach to the mystery of the

00:05:29.880 mind and the secular foundations for a meditative practice.

00:05:34.780 Our compilation on consciousness is the most natural companion to this episode.

00:05:39.420 In that compilation, you'll hear Sam insist that the one thing that you certainly have

00:05:45.420 is your mind.

00:05:46.900 So why not get to know it?

00:05:49.400 And better yet, why not learn some techniques to understand and train in?

00:05:57.740 As it was put by one teacher whom Sam admires, and whom you'll get to know in these conversations,

00:06:02.860 you needn't have happened, but you did happen.

00:06:08.540 You occurred.

00:06:10.360 So the first motive for looking at this is curiosity.

00:06:14.260 And I say, it's pretty chicken-hearted, pretty unenterprising, to live and die without ever

00:06:20.400 looking to see who is doing that.

00:06:23.240 What a challenge.

00:06:25.220 What an opportunity.

00:06:28.700 One important note up front.

00:06:30.760 The common image of sitting with crossed legs and eyes closed while focusing on the breath,

00:06:36.980 that's just one particular method of meditation, and it may not be the one that suits you best.

00:06:43.580 There are thousands of ways to meditate that prescribe very different techniques,

00:06:48.580 from walking with a certain intention, to sitting with open eyes,

00:06:52.840 to focusing on a specific object in vision, hearing, or sensation, or even focusing on an idea,

00:06:58.720 to chanting, to dancing, to committing to silent observation of the mind for days, weeks, or years.

00:07:08.580 So, with the caveat that any summary of meditation would be inadequate,

00:07:13.080 we'll introduce two popular approaches which attempt to usher you to the same place

00:07:17.500 by taking divergent routes.

00:07:23.960 One path is called Dzogchen, and the other is called Vipassana.

00:07:29.360 These are words you'll hear frequently in the following conversations,

00:07:33.020 along with other Sanskrit words which come from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition,

00:07:36.580 like Anapanasati, which is the focusing on the breath,

00:07:41.100 or Rigpa, or Trekcho, which are both about resting in a state of open awareness.

00:07:47.180 Don't worry too much about these foreign-sounding words,

00:07:50.480 and please forgive my pronunciations,

00:07:52.860 because the concepts they teach are graspable and universal.

00:07:55.900 But, somewhat unfortunately, many of the concepts in meditation are ineffable.

00:08:04.220 The word choices by which we describe something like

00:08:06.700 an experience of open, clear awareness are poetic and subjective,

00:08:11.980 though the descriptions tend to overlap in interesting ways across time and culture.

00:08:17.860 It's sometimes taught that when one is in a state of deep meditation,

00:08:21.340 the very moment that a name, label, or a set of conceptual words

00:08:26.320 creep into the mind and attempt to package and deliver the experience

00:08:29.600 as a coded linguistic expression, even to oneself,

00:08:33.900 is the very moment that one knows they have lost touch with the pure experience itself.

00:08:39.280 And the instinct to try to contain and cling to the experience

00:08:42.600 is an ironic signal of failure and disconnection.

00:08:46.920 Words and descriptions in this topic are something akin to trying to grasp

00:08:50.720 and present a handful of smoke.

00:08:54.560 So, with the caveats of inadequate language and incomplete knowledge in mind,

00:08:59.520 let's forge ahead.

00:09:04.100 Vipassana tends to use techniques which focus on an object,

00:09:08.400 oftentimes the breath, though it can be body scanning,

00:09:11.860 or even an idea like compassion or love,

00:09:14.720 which is taken as an object of focus.

00:09:16.520 The meditation attempts to groom the mind to notice how attention tends to drift away from ideas,

00:09:23.520 seemingly on its own.

00:09:26.360 There are frequent reminders in Vipassana

00:09:28.840 to gently return one's attention back to the object when you notice that it has slipped.

00:09:34.920 You'll hear several of Sam's guests relay the common experience of frustration and surprise

00:09:39.460 with just how difficult this seemingly simple-sounding task can be.

00:09:43.640 The techniques of Dzogchen attempt to point the mind away from objects 1.00

00:09:49.660 and directly towards the recognition of the openness of the mind

00:09:53.100 and the illusory nature of thoughts and perceptions which appear within it.

00:09:57.900 The idea is to rest in a state of non-conceptual awareness.

00:10:03.520 It's difficult to speak about a destination or goal for meditation,

00:10:07.920 as we've already noted,

00:10:08.820 but the place that each of these paths would hopefully lead one to

00:10:12.680 is something like the dissolution of the idea of the self

00:10:16.260 or the continual identification with thoughts and concepts.

00:10:21.660 This place where the notion of self drops out from the picture of consciousness

00:10:25.460 is expressed in many different ways that you'll hear in these conversations.

00:10:29.160 Sometimes it's nothingness, or emptiness, or non-being, or transparency.

00:10:38.340 But in this first clip, you'll hear it expressed as something like

00:10:42.120 non-occurrence, or zero-ness.

00:10:46.320 And you'll hear how a particular word

00:10:48.700 was what thrust the meditator towards this sudden realization.

00:10:51.940 The guest is Joseph Goldstein,

00:10:55.380 who is Sam's longtime friend and meditation teacher.

00:10:59.280 He's appeared on Making Sense three times

00:11:01.700 and frequents the Waking Up app as well.

00:11:04.980 In this clip, you'll hear him and Sam

00:11:07.260 go back to their first encounters with meditation.

00:11:10.480 To attest to just how important this subject is to Sam,

00:11:14.300 this is from episode four of Making Sense,

00:11:17.600 and actually was the first ever episode of the podcast,

00:11:20.280 which featured a recorded conversation.

00:11:23.080 It was called The Path and the Goal.

00:11:29.280 Before we get into esoterica,

00:11:32.360 tell us a little bit about how you got into meditation

00:11:34.760 and how this became your life's work.

00:11:38.340 Well, I was studying philosophy

00:11:41.300 at Columbia University in New York as an undergraduate.

00:11:46.400 And by the time my senior year came around,

00:11:50.280 I was really anxious just to get out and see the world.

00:11:52.740 And this was in 1965,

00:11:55.800 and it was just soon after the Peace Corps was established.

00:12:01.980 And so that seemed to me a really good vehicle

00:12:04.600 for getting out and seeing new parts of the world.

00:12:09.040 So I applied to the Peace Corps,

00:12:10.860 and I actually applied to go to East Africa.

00:12:13.420 But as fate or karma or accident or whatever,

00:12:21.180 whatever the conditions may be,

00:12:23.200 happened, they sent me to Thailand,

00:12:26.680 which turned out to be a very fortunate happening.

00:12:30.680 Because while I was in Thailand,

00:12:33.640 I had my first contact really with Buddhism

00:12:36.840 and Buddhist teachings and meditation.

00:12:40.760 Soon after I started teaching in Bangkok,

00:12:44.760 I was teaching English,

00:12:46.460 I started going to a discussion group

00:12:50.280 at the Marble Temple,

00:12:51.720 which is quite a famous temple in Bangkok.

00:12:55.400 There were some Western monks

00:12:56.820 who were leading the discussion,

00:12:58.940 kind of introducing Westerners 0.85

00:13:00.380 to some of the Buddhist ideas and concepts.

00:13:04.900 Of course, having just graduated college in philosophy,

00:13:08.300 I went there full of my own ideas about things.

00:13:11.420 And I would be asking so many questions in the group

00:13:14.380 that people would stop coming.

00:13:16.940 You know, it was like,

00:13:18.200 I think we've all been in groups like that.

00:13:20.020 Right.

00:13:20.120 And we've probably both been that person. 0.99

00:13:22.940 You were the insufferable blowhard. 0.99

00:13:24.400 Exactly. 0.99

00:13:25.800 So finally, this one monk says,

00:13:27.920 Joseph, I think you ought to meditate.

00:13:30.560 I didn't know anything about it.

00:13:32.120 I didn't know anybody who meditated.

00:13:33.680 I was 21, 22 years old in the Far East.

00:13:37.160 It was all extremely exotic to me.

00:13:40.280 And it just seemed like a really interesting thing to do.

00:13:45.420 So he gave me some initial instruction,

00:13:47.660 and I also began a little reading.

00:13:51.520 There was one classic book

00:13:52.900 called The Heart of Buddhist Meditation,

00:13:54.740 which laid out the basic methodology.

00:14:00.240 And so I gathered kind of all the sitting paraphernalia,

00:14:03.200 cushions and this and that, you know, to sit.

00:14:05.560 And the very first time,

00:14:07.800 I set my alarm clock for five minutes.

00:14:10.280 You know, because I didn't want to over-sit.

00:14:12.540 But something quite amazing happened

00:14:14.260 in that first five minutes.

00:14:15.960 And it really changed the whole course of my life.

00:14:19.760 So the first time you sat,

00:14:21.140 you actually connected with the practice

00:14:22.740 and realized it was something worth looking into.

00:14:25.280 Well, what I realized,

00:14:26.240 it wasn't that I had any great enlightenment experience.

00:14:28.840 But what I realized was that there was a way

00:14:31.700 to look into the mind,

00:14:33.360 as well as looking out through it.

00:14:35.700 And my whole life, I had just been looking out.

00:14:37.740 Right.

00:14:38.320 Out of my mind.

00:14:39.480 Yeah.

00:14:39.820 Rather than looking into it.

00:14:41.860 So it was like a turning in place.

00:14:44.720 Yeah.

00:14:44.880 And that, just that was so extraordinary to me.

00:14:48.780 You know, I got so excited.

00:14:50.460 I started inviting my friends over to watch me meditate.

00:14:53.720 Right.

00:14:55.660 Arguably the most narcissistic thing you could possibly do.

00:14:59.300 It was, well,

00:15:00.120 more charitably it was naive.

00:15:04.480 It really came out of this tremendous enthusiasm

00:15:07.240 for, you know, what I felt I was discovering.

00:15:10.300 Right.

00:15:11.540 Obviously they didn't come back very often.

00:15:14.880 It made for a poor viewing experience.

00:15:17.960 Very poor.

00:15:18.760 So, uh, but that was the beginning, you know,

00:15:22.120 and then, you know, over the course of my time

00:15:25.600 in the Peace Corps, I just, you know,

00:15:28.020 I extended time past five minutes a little bit,

00:15:30.380 but still, uh.

00:15:32.880 So, so how long did it take for you

00:15:34.160 to actually go on intensive retreat?

00:15:36.340 Oh, at the end of my Peace Corps stay,

00:15:39.880 I had an experience.

00:15:41.420 Somebody was reading from a Tibetan text.

00:15:44.940 Friend was reading.

00:15:46.300 So at this point you had been meditating

00:15:47.320 for what, a year?

00:15:49.200 Yeah, maybe a year, but very intermittently.

00:15:52.180 Just an hour a day or something.

00:15:53.640 Probably not even, you know,

00:15:55.600 but I was dabbling.

00:15:57.700 I was just dabbling in it

00:15:59.140 and reading and going to some classes

00:16:01.240 and trying to find out more about it.

00:16:04.180 But just at the end of my Peace Corps stay

00:16:06.320 before I left for home,

00:16:07.620 I had a really transformative experience

00:16:11.420 listening to somebody read from a Tibetan text.

00:16:14.980 And it just was an experience of opening

00:16:19.420 to an understanding of the mind

00:16:23.040 and kind of in classical Buddhist terms,

00:16:29.540 they talk about the unborn or the unformed 0.96

00:16:33.440 or using words like that to describe

00:16:36.460 the freest aspect of the mind.

00:16:39.700 You know, so something happened.

00:16:40.920 What the hell happened?

00:16:44.700 Somebody was reading this text,

00:16:47.640 a Tibetan text,

00:16:50.400 and that edition,

00:16:51.900 that was a very early translation of it,

00:16:55.040 which, a translation which has now been...

00:16:58.300 So, a faulty translation.

00:16:59.920 A faulty translation by Evans Wentz

00:17:03.320 called the Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation.

00:17:06.660 Right.

00:17:07.540 There have since been much more careful

00:17:09.880 translations of it.

00:17:11.300 Right.

00:17:11.980 And very powerful ones.

00:17:13.700 But even in that faulty translations...

00:17:16.840 Have the new translations revised

00:17:19.120 the very line you found so useful?

00:17:21.520 No.

00:17:22.600 Okay.

00:17:23.100 No.

00:17:23.540 All right.

00:17:23.840 So, back up.

00:17:25.380 You've got this faulty Victorian translation

00:17:28.940 of the Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation,

00:17:31.320 and you have a friend who's reading it out loud to you?

00:17:34.240 Right.

00:17:34.660 And then, at one point in the reading,

00:17:38.140 just on the word unborn,

00:17:40.360 the mind opened to that experience.

00:17:45.660 Right.

00:17:46.680 Say more about that.

00:17:47.880 You hear this word unborn.

00:17:49.380 You're looking into your mind all the while.

00:17:51.520 What changes?

00:17:53.780 So, it's a momentary experience

00:17:57.260 that has the power of a lightning bolt.

00:18:00.240 So, it's a unique moment

00:18:03.880 of the mind going from

00:18:09.140 being aware of different things arising

00:18:12.380 moment after moment,

00:18:13.860 you know, what sights and sounds

00:18:15.100 and the breath and the mind itself,

00:18:16.840 and then, upon hearing the word unborn,

00:18:21.420 and it's very hard to describe,

00:18:24.780 but it was,

00:18:26.920 if you think literally

00:18:28.520 of what that word means,

00:18:31.960 unborn,

00:18:34.220 it's the experience of non-occurrence.

00:18:38.520 So, being born is something occurring.

00:18:40.960 It's, so moment after moment experience

00:18:44.720 is being born and dying,

00:18:46.580 being born and dying moment after moment.

00:18:48.620 Unborn

00:18:49.060 is a moment of non-occurrence,

00:18:54.020 which broke that stream

00:18:56.560 of continual birth,

00:19:00.660 of continual occurrence.

00:19:02.000 And the metaphor,

00:19:05.280 or simile,

00:19:06.200 one of those,

00:19:07.340 right after,

00:19:10.360 right after that moment,

00:19:12.680 I described it to myself

00:19:16.880 as zero.

00:19:18.780 It was the experience of zero.

00:19:21.120 Right.

00:19:21.700 So,

00:19:22.000 so the experience is,

00:19:23.540 was,

00:19:24.880 however difficult it is

00:19:26.340 to characterize,

00:19:27.900 it entailed the loss

00:19:29.920 of ordinary sensory experience.

00:19:31.980 Yes.

00:19:32.080 You're no longer seeing,

00:19:32.980 hearing, smelling,

00:19:33.640 tasting, touching,

00:19:34.380 thinking.

00:19:34.780 Right.

00:19:35.100 So the lights went out

00:19:36.520 in some sense.

00:19:38.140 The lights went out

00:19:39.140 in some sense,

00:19:40.060 but there was a knowing

00:19:41.800 of that.

00:19:42.980 Right.

00:19:44.160 Right.

00:19:44.740 And this,

00:19:45.480 this gets into another,

00:19:47.020 you know,

00:19:47.640 a deeper discussion

00:19:48.600 of that experience,

00:19:49.540 which we might have later.

00:19:53.280 So it is,

00:19:54.240 so it is the knowing

00:19:55.800 of a reality.

00:19:57.680 That doesn't entail

00:19:58.880 ordinary sensory perception.

00:20:01.420 It's zero.

00:20:02.640 Right.

00:20:03.480 It's like a rebooting

00:20:04.720 of the hard drive.

00:20:05.760 Yeah.

00:20:06.340 Yeah.

00:20:07.640 But one of the things

00:20:08.900 that became so apparent

00:20:09.960 is that zero is not nothing.

00:20:12.520 Right.

00:20:12.660 Zero is a powerful number.

00:20:14.200 Yeah.

00:20:14.520 And perhaps the most

00:20:15.200 powerful number.

00:20:17.220 And the fruit of,

00:20:19.020 the fruit of that experience

00:20:20.900 was the immediate

00:20:23.300 understanding

00:20:24.780 and realization

00:20:25.720 of the selflessness

00:20:28.200 of this whole process

00:20:30.480 we call life.

00:20:31.560 That there's no,

00:20:32.560 there's no one

00:20:34.920 to whom it's happening.

00:20:41.580 Goldstein's later appearances

00:20:43.020 on Making Sense

00:20:44.140 and Episodes 15

00:20:45.420 and 63

00:20:46.140 get further into

00:20:47.760 the minutiae

00:20:48.420 of meditation

00:20:49.020 and also respond

00:20:50.640 to some audience questions,

00:20:52.400 including some relevant ones

00:20:53.640 on the moral

00:20:54.300 or immoral,

00:20:55.520 as it were,

00:20:56.560 behavior

00:20:56.960 of some meditation practitioners.

00:21:00.300 Goldstein's

00:21:00.860 Insight Meditation Society

00:21:02.420 is also a great resource

00:21:04.100 to investigate

00:21:04.780 for those interested

00:21:05.720 in attending a retreat.

00:21:06.880 The passage

00:21:09.220 which struck Goldstein

00:21:10.340 so deeply

00:21:11.080 from the Tibetan book

00:21:12.180 of the Great Liberation,

00:21:13.720 which his friend

00:21:14.320 was reading aloud,

00:21:15.680 was this one.

00:21:16.880 The self-originated 0.89

00:21:18.820 clear light,

00:21:20.420 eternally unborn,

00:21:22.620 is a parentless

00:21:23.380 babe of wisdom.

00:21:25.560 Wondrous is this.

00:21:27.460 Being non-created,

00:21:29.280 it is natural wisdom.

00:21:31.460 Wondrous is this.

00:21:33.580 Not having known birth,

00:21:34.960 it knows not death.

00:21:38.920 That unborn feeling 0.89

00:21:40.860 of zero

00:21:41.660 but not nothingness

00:21:43.380 is obviously

00:21:44.640 a bit difficult

00:21:45.380 to grasp

00:21:46.060 or convey in words.

00:21:48.220 But as we mentioned

00:21:49.460 in the introduction,

00:21:50.820 it's a concept

00:21:51.520 which resurfaces

00:21:52.440 constantly

00:21:53.100 in discussions

00:21:53.800 of meditation

00:21:54.480 and mind.

00:21:56.160 The next guest

00:21:57.380 is going to take

00:21:58.060 another run

00:21:58.540 at that idea,

00:21:59.740 but through a remarkably

00:22:00.700 simple set of experiments

00:22:02.080 which he will invite you

00:22:03.480 to participate in.

00:22:04.960 If you recall

00:22:06.200 Goldstein's final line,

00:22:08.340 that there is no one

00:22:09.180 to whom

00:22:09.940 life is happening,

00:22:11.960 that is an expression

00:22:12.960 of the selflessness

00:22:13.980 of consciousness

00:22:14.860 and we're going to

00:22:16.120 try to stay there

00:22:16.960 but with a slightly

00:22:18.080 different emphasis.

00:22:20.120 Our next guest

00:22:21.400 would like you

00:22:22.160 to take a look

00:22:22.720 at yourself.

00:22:24.180 As he often repeats,

00:22:26.080 he's in the business

00:22:26.840 of trying to help people

00:22:28.040 take a look

00:22:28.680 at who they really,

00:22:30.140 really are.

00:22:30.800 And if you do

00:22:32.460 grasp this perspective,

00:22:33.960 you are very likely

00:22:35.240 to discover

00:22:35.800 that you are

00:22:36.460 something very different

00:22:37.560 than what the world

00:22:38.360 has been telling you

00:22:39.220 you are.

00:22:40.380 He means this

00:22:41.140 in a deceptively

00:22:42.060 straightforward way.

00:22:45.220 Richard Lang

00:22:46.140 is our guest,

00:22:47.480 but he's coming to us

00:22:48.520 as a devoted student

00:22:49.660 of Douglas Harding,

00:22:51.320 whom he studied

00:22:51.920 extensively with

00:22:52.960 and has also

00:22:53.760 written a biography about.

00:22:57.120 Lang has continued

00:22:58.220 to spread Harding's

00:22:59.180 teachings and messages,

00:23:00.900 making them more accessible

00:23:01.920 to a wider audience.

00:23:04.080 In this clip,

00:23:05.280 he'll tell you a little

00:23:06.120 about Harding's life

00:23:07.260 and give you a tour

00:23:08.460 of his central insight,

00:23:10.160 which is profound

00:23:10.960 in its obviousness.

00:23:12.860 And that is this one.

00:23:14.800 You have no head.

00:23:19.720 Now, don't be too alarmed. 0.67

00:23:22.120 If you go check

00:23:22.820 in a mirror,

00:23:23.900 you'll most likely

00:23:24.860 see a head there.

00:23:26.260 And we're quite sure

00:23:27.380 that if you ask

00:23:28.040 the people around you

00:23:29.020 to confirm that

00:23:29.840 you have a head,

00:23:31.140 they'll do so,

00:23:32.220 probably after giving you

00:23:33.540 a pretty perplexed look.

00:23:35.680 But what Harding

00:23:36.540 and now Lang

00:23:37.520 will ask you to do

00:23:38.600 is try to take

00:23:39.860 real account

00:23:40.560 of the fact

00:23:41.040 that your head

00:23:41.740 actually does not exist

00:23:43.180 in your universe.

00:23:45.060 You will never

00:23:45.840 see it directly,

00:23:47.000 and you are forced

00:23:47.740 to take everyone's word

00:23:48.920 or the information

00:23:50.020 of a mirror

00:23:50.620 as evidence

00:23:51.820 of its existence.

00:23:54.940 There is an artistic sketch

00:23:56.640 referenced in this clip,

00:23:58.040 drawn by the Austrian physicist

00:23:59.680 and philosopher

00:24:00.620 Ernst Mach,

00:24:02.220 which provided the

00:24:03.620 aha moment

00:24:04.600 for Harding's

00:24:05.460 headless insight.

00:24:07.140 We'll describe the sketch now,

00:24:09.300 given the audible medium

00:24:10.400 of this podcast.

00:24:11.280 The sketch shows Mach's

00:24:15.660 first-person point of view

00:24:17.000 with his right eye closed

00:24:18.620 while reclining

00:24:19.740 on his chair

00:24:20.520 in his office.

00:24:22.480 His dark mustache

00:24:23.840 frames the bottom

00:24:24.760 of the sketch.

00:24:25.920 The right side

00:24:27.020 is the ridge

00:24:27.740 of his nose,

00:24:28.600 and the top

00:24:29.700 is his brow bone.

00:24:32.440 His torso and legs

00:24:34.020 extend away

00:24:34.800 from this point of view

00:24:35.900 while a pen rests

00:24:37.260 in his right hand.

00:24:38.220 The walls and window

00:24:40.180 of his office

00:24:40.980 appear beyond his shoes.

00:24:43.740 If you take a moment

00:24:45.080 and consider

00:24:45.740 where you are

00:24:46.360 right now,

00:24:47.540 and you close one eye,

00:24:49.300 and you attempt

00:24:49.880 to draw exactly

00:24:51.120 what you see,

00:24:52.800 you will not be

00:24:54.060 drawing your head.

00:24:55.240 If you recall

00:24:57.720 Goldstein's line

00:24:58.880 about looking inward

00:24:59.960 rather than outward

00:25:01.280 for the first time

00:25:02.420 in his life

00:25:03.060 during his fateful

00:25:04.140 five-minute meditation,

00:25:06.080 this next method

00:25:06.880 of introspection

00:25:07.560 is very nearly

00:25:08.720 an exact flipping

00:25:09.840 of that sentence

00:25:11.060 to pay close attention

00:25:12.600 and wonder

00:25:13.340 exactly what we are

00:25:14.440 looking outward from.

00:25:16.920 If this strikes you

00:25:18.180 as silly or mundane, 0.68

00:25:20.060 don't worry.

00:25:21.420 Sam will do you 0.91

00:25:22.060 a favor

00:25:22.540 and play skeptic

00:25:23.680 after Richard Lang

00:25:24.780 attempts to give you

00:25:25.640 a tour

00:25:26.160 of what came

00:25:27.200 to be known as

00:25:28.060 the headless way.

00:25:30.940 This is Richard Lang

00:25:32.400 from episode 181,

00:25:34.760 The Illusory Self.

00:25:40.860 What's so interesting

00:25:42.080 about Douglass

00:25:42.680 is that he came up

00:25:43.800 with truly novel

00:25:46.240 practices

00:25:47.820 and analogies

00:25:49.740 and framings

00:25:50.760 and ways of looking

00:25:52.260 into awareness.

00:25:53.980 It's his own

00:25:54.860 methodology

00:25:55.980 which really

00:25:57.540 is very effective

00:25:58.400 for so many people.

00:26:01.280 But before we get there,

00:26:02.260 let's just talk about

00:26:02.920 Douglass,

00:26:04.020 the man,

00:26:04.800 for a moment.

00:26:06.300 You've published

00:26:07.060 essentially

00:26:08.440 a graphic

00:26:09.380 biography,

00:26:11.480 The Man with No Head.

00:26:13.300 So maybe you can

00:26:14.160 just give us

00:26:14.900 a brief

00:26:16.180 tour of

00:26:17.180 Douglass' 0.96

00:26:17.600 spiritual biography.

00:26:20.320 Yes.

00:26:21.280 Well,

00:26:21.580 he grew up

00:26:22.380 in an exclusive

00:26:24.020 Plymouth Brethren

00:26:24.900 which was a very strict

00:26:26.080 Christian group

00:26:27.460 and his father

00:26:28.680 was very keen,

00:26:30.040 very dedicated,

00:26:31.000 a very small group

00:26:31.780 in the east of England

00:26:32.560 and they used to,

00:26:34.600 you know,

00:26:35.360 have prayers

00:26:36.040 twice a day

00:26:36.780 and four times

00:26:37.720 on Sundays

00:26:38.320 and God knows what.

00:26:40.240 But at 21,

00:26:41.240 he left

00:26:41.820 and his reason

00:26:43.660 for leaving

00:26:44.300 was that,

00:26:45.000 well,

00:26:45.060 you might be right

00:26:46.300 but I am not

00:26:48.320 going to accept

00:26:49.020 that you're right

00:26:49.660 just because

00:26:50.060 you say you are.

00:26:51.500 I want to find out

00:26:52.260 for myself.

00:26:53.100 And it hurt his father.

00:26:54.240 His father cut off

00:26:54.960 from him.

00:26:56.780 And anyway,

00:26:58.220 Douglass went

00:26:58.680 his own way

00:26:59.540 but he had been

00:27:01.080 profoundly affected

00:27:01.900 by his father.

00:27:03.860 During the First World War,

00:27:05.580 the Germans

00:27:06.260 bombed

00:27:07.020 the town

00:27:08.120 where they were.

00:27:08.860 It was a seaside town

00:27:09.940 and his father

00:27:11.120 refused to go

00:27:12.560 into the cinema

00:27:13.420 to seek shelter

00:27:14.900 but got the whole

00:27:16.440 family on their knees

00:27:17.380 praying

00:27:17.800 while the bombs

00:27:18.680 came over

00:27:19.980 or the shells

00:27:20.520 came over

00:27:21.180 and he said

00:27:22.140 I'm going to put

00:27:22.620 my faith in God.

00:27:24.380 Well,

00:27:25.040 Douglass rejected

00:27:26.400 the sort of

00:27:27.080 kind of,

00:27:28.240 you know,

00:27:29.560 the peripherals

00:27:30.600 of the religion

00:27:31.640 but he was

00:27:32.560 affected

00:27:33.440 by this

00:27:34.300 deep

00:27:34.840 faith somehow

00:27:36.280 and this

00:27:37.120 sense of

00:27:38.440 the importance

00:27:40.120 of meaning

00:27:40.940 of,

00:27:42.400 yeah,

00:27:42.660 something like that.

00:27:43.680 Anyway,

00:27:43.960 at 21 he left

00:27:45.100 and then he

00:27:45.660 started inquiring.

00:27:47.060 He was training

00:27:48.240 and then working

00:27:48.820 as an architect

00:27:49.460 in London

00:27:50.040 and he started

00:27:51.680 inquiring

00:27:52.220 into what he was

00:27:53.800 and I think

00:27:54.440 he often used to say

00:27:55.520 the basic thing

00:27:56.660 that amazes me

00:27:57.580 is that I am.

00:27:59.500 You know,

00:27:59.820 I mean,

00:28:00.060 just how amazing

00:28:01.560 just to be.

00:28:02.380 I mean,

00:28:02.600 I might not be

00:28:03.420 and while I am

00:28:05.680 I'd like to find out

00:28:06.720 who I am,

00:28:07.800 what I am

00:28:08.420 and he'd already

00:28:10.020 rejected what

00:28:10.940 the Plymouth Brethren

00:28:11.820 was saying,

00:28:12.500 so at this point

00:28:13.740 he wasn't going

00:28:14.140 to take on

00:28:14.600 another dogma

00:28:16.020 he was going

00:28:16.320 to look for himself

00:28:17.060 and he started

00:28:18.420 really by recognizing

00:28:19.880 that he was

00:28:21.580 made of layers

00:28:22.460 depending on

00:28:23.280 where the observer

00:28:24.200 was.

00:28:24.860 So, you know,

00:28:25.920 six feet he was

00:28:26.600 human but closer

00:28:27.540 to his cells

00:28:28.480 and then further

00:28:29.560 away he was

00:28:30.420 a city

00:28:31.040 or a species

00:28:32.100 and this sort

00:28:33.660 of enabled him

00:28:35.020 to sort of

00:28:36.860 cross the boundary

00:28:37.780 between his skin

00:28:39.160 and the rest

00:28:39.600 of the world

00:28:40.080 and he began

00:28:43.000 developing this

00:28:43.940 feeling that

00:28:44.720 this view

00:28:45.920 that he was

00:28:46.380 like an onion

00:28:46.920 with layers

00:28:47.560 and of course

00:28:49.120 when you realize

00:28:50.720 that you must

00:28:51.500 ask what's

00:28:52.100 at the center

00:28:52.660 and he went

00:28:54.740 to India

00:28:55.160 with his wife

00:28:56.020 and they

00:28:56.920 had two children

00:28:58.640 there

00:28:59.500 and the war

00:29:00.360 broke out.

00:29:01.860 Anyway,

00:29:02.280 in about 1943

00:29:04.180 he'd come

00:29:05.080 to the position

00:29:07.120 that he realized

00:29:08.320 he was made

00:29:08.760 of layers

00:29:09.400 and that the

00:29:10.220 nearer you got

00:29:11.280 to the center

00:29:12.140 the less there was.

00:29:13.780 So it made sense

00:29:14.720 that he was kind

00:29:16.060 of no thing

00:29:17.700 at the center

00:29:18.380 but he couldn't

00:29:20.680 seem to experience

00:29:21.620 that.

00:29:22.160 It was just a guess

00:29:23.120 and then he was

00:29:25.020 reading a book

00:29:26.700 where there was

00:29:28.040 an article

00:29:28.540 or a section

00:29:29.420 by Ernst Mark,

00:29:31.720 physicist

00:29:32.200 and Mark

00:29:34.080 it's a fairly

00:29:34.620 well-known picture

00:29:35.320 drew a self-portrait

00:29:36.700 not of what

00:29:38.120 he looked like

00:29:38.800 at six feet

00:29:39.560 but of what

00:29:40.740 he looked like

00:29:41.340 from his own

00:29:41.800 point of view

00:29:42.220 which of course

00:29:42.780 is headless

00:29:43.400 and when Douglas

00:29:44.900 saw this

00:29:45.800 and he was probably

00:29:46.680 sitting in the

00:29:47.460 Imperial Library

00:29:48.340 or somewhere

00:29:48.920 in Calcutta

00:29:49.860 he suddenly thought

00:29:51.520 that's it

00:29:52.440 and it was not

00:29:53.460 a big wow

00:29:54.100 he used to say

00:29:54.860 it was just like

00:29:56.080 a cool recognition

00:29:57.100 ah

00:29:57.980 that's what I am

00:29:59.380 at zero

00:29:59.920 that's what I am

00:30:02.100 ah

00:30:02.940 you see

00:30:03.520 okay so let's

00:30:05.340 let's jump into

00:30:06.660 the experience

00:30:08.000 and do our best

00:30:09.340 to introduce

00:30:09.940 people to it

00:30:11.100 hmm

00:30:12.120 I guess we should

00:30:13.520 say that

00:30:14.160 unfortunately

00:30:15.000 many of the

00:30:15.800 experiments that

00:30:16.640 Douglas devised

00:30:17.900 are highly visual

00:30:19.440 and

00:30:20.240 we can talk

00:30:21.640 a little bit

00:30:21.980 about the

00:30:22.960 primacy of vision

00:30:23.960 as a

00:30:24.520 as a context

00:30:25.540 in which to

00:30:26.160 see this

00:30:27.020 experience

00:30:27.580 experience

00:30:27.740 and

00:30:28.020 this is the

00:30:29.180 kind of thing

00:30:29.640 that it can

00:30:30.680 be recognized

00:30:31.360 with your eyes

00:30:32.140 closed too

00:30:33.340 but

00:30:33.680 you know

00:30:34.700 many of us

00:30:35.800 have found

00:30:36.420 that that's a

00:30:37.020 a subtler

00:30:38.260 thing to recognize

00:30:39.780 so

00:30:40.140 I guess with that

00:30:41.180 limitation

00:30:41.840 I mean

00:30:42.420 just knowing

00:30:42.880 that

00:30:43.100 we can give

00:30:44.060 people instructions

00:30:44.920 that

00:30:45.560 they do

00:30:46.460 with their

00:30:46.720 open eyes

00:30:47.360 that reference

00:30:48.240 vision

00:30:48.680 as the primary

00:30:49.380 sense

00:30:49.900 but we just

00:30:50.920 have to recognize

00:30:51.540 that you know

00:30:52.060 this is going

00:30:52.820 out in pure

00:30:53.460 audio form

00:30:54.280 so we have to

00:30:54.960 it all has to

00:30:55.900 be intelligible

00:30:56.520 so with that

00:30:57.700 proviso

00:30:58.080 how would you

00:30:59.380 instruct

00:31:01.000 how do you

00:31:02.240 instruct

00:31:02.740 someone who

00:31:03.660 is contemplating

00:31:05.100 this for the

00:31:05.860 first time

00:31:06.420 yes

00:31:08.140 well I

00:31:09.000 I could

00:31:10.300 just take

00:31:12.560 you and them

00:31:13.280 or whatever

00:31:13.820 through just

00:31:14.580 a little

00:31:15.260 process

00:31:16.300 that includes

00:31:17.020 closed eyes

00:31:17.940 and you know

00:31:20.120 being aware

00:31:20.920 that we're

00:31:21.660 just audio

00:31:22.420 here

00:31:22.780 okay

00:31:23.500 well

00:31:24.260 as you

00:31:26.140 say

00:31:26.540 a lot

00:31:27.980 of the

00:31:28.200 experiments

00:31:28.600 are visual

00:31:29.380 and you

00:31:30.680 can just

00:31:30.960 notice

00:31:31.300 you can't

00:31:31.860 see your

00:31:32.200 face now

00:31:32.960 but a

00:31:34.480 very simple

00:31:35.740 direct

00:31:36.360 thing

00:31:37.480 to do

00:31:38.120 which I

00:31:38.560 think is

00:31:38.860 worth doing

00:31:39.320 is to

00:31:39.620 actually

00:31:39.980 point

00:31:40.580 so if

00:31:41.580 the listener

00:31:42.040 is willing

00:31:42.440 to play

00:31:42.920 a bit

00:31:43.380 I would

00:31:44.520 ask you

00:31:44.960 just to

00:31:45.300 get

00:31:45.580 your

00:31:46.240 index

00:31:46.800 finger

00:31:47.120 of your

00:31:47.380 right hand

00:31:47.840 or something

00:31:48.300 and point

00:31:49.360 out

00:31:49.900 so you

00:31:50.460 actually

00:31:50.740 got to

00:31:51.040 do it

00:31:51.320 because

00:31:51.480 it's

00:31:51.680 just

00:31:51.940 making

00:31:52.980 clear

00:31:53.520 the arrow

00:31:54.180 of attention

00:31:54.720 is out

00:31:55.360 so you

00:31:55.720 might be

00:31:55.960 pointing at

00:31:56.580 the table

00:31:57.680 or a vase

00:31:59.280 or a window

00:32:00.280 and you're

00:32:01.280 looking along

00:32:01.680 your finger

00:32:02.140 and there's

00:32:02.720 a thing

00:32:03.220 now what I

00:32:04.740 want you to

00:32:05.180 do is just

00:32:05.620 turn your

00:32:06.300 finger

00:32:06.800 180 degrees

00:32:08.460 around

00:32:09.200 to point

00:32:10.340 back at

00:32:10.900 the place

00:32:11.300 you're looking

00:32:11.720 out of

00:32:12.560 and notice

00:32:14.340 what you

00:32:15.200 see there

00:32:15.980 or what you

00:32:16.620 don't see

00:32:17.180 because I

00:32:17.980 don't see

00:32:18.460 anything right

00:32:19.040 now

00:32:19.240 I don't

00:32:19.480 see my

00:32:19.800 face

00:32:20.360 don't see

00:32:21.160 my eyes

00:32:21.860 don't see

00:32:22.340 any

00:32:22.680 shape

00:32:23.940 or movement

00:32:24.640 or anything

00:32:25.120 so I'm

00:32:25.560 pointing

00:32:26.020 I would say

00:32:26.580 I'm pointing

00:32:27.120 at my

00:32:27.440 no face

00:32:28.220 at this

00:32:29.880 space here

00:32:30.640 this stillness

00:32:31.520 this silence

00:32:32.500 even

00:32:32.840 and this

00:32:34.420 outward

00:32:35.320 and inward

00:32:35.900 is a

00:32:36.360 two way

00:32:36.820 pointing

00:32:37.320 thing

00:32:37.740 so that's

00:32:40.120 a kind

00:32:41.120 of useful

00:32:41.660 gesture

00:32:42.220 to bear

00:32:43.820 in mind

00:32:44.400 so just

00:32:45.720 starting visually

00:32:46.500 I said

00:32:46.800 well

00:32:47.080 you can't

00:32:48.440 see your

00:32:48.800 face

00:32:49.280 I'd say

00:32:50.260 the

00:32:50.700 inward

00:32:51.460 pointing

00:32:52.160 arrow

00:32:52.780 of attention

00:32:53.340 is pointing

00:32:53.880 at no

00:32:54.320 thing

00:32:54.620 space

00:32:55.220 now this

00:32:56.220 is a

00:32:56.460 nonverbal

00:32:56.900 experience

00:32:57.540 so I'm

00:32:58.620 putting words

00:32:59.140 on it

00:32:59.600 I'm

00:33:00.220 absolutely

00:33:00.640 convinced

00:33:01.320 everyone

00:33:01.700 is aware

00:33:02.300 you know

00:33:02.660 can see

00:33:03.000 this

00:33:03.260 because you

00:33:03.540 can't

00:33:03.780 see your

00:33:04.040 head

00:33:04.260 instead

00:33:04.600 you see

00:33:04.980 the world

00:33:05.540 but you

00:33:06.740 may choose

00:33:07.180 different

00:33:07.440 words from

00:33:07.940 me

00:33:08.180 so that

00:33:08.660 we accept

00:33:09.440 that

00:33:09.840 so I'd

00:33:11.040 just like

00:33:11.480 you first

00:33:12.020 to notice

00:33:12.540 several

00:33:12.960 things

00:33:13.420 about the

00:33:13.920 view

00:33:14.200 out

00:33:14.560 from this

00:33:15.240 space

00:33:15.760 that it's

00:33:16.900 a sort

00:33:17.180 of oval

00:33:17.680 view

00:33:18.020 the field

00:33:18.540 of view

00:33:18.900 and it

00:33:20.320 fades out

00:33:21.020 all the

00:33:21.320 way around

00:33:21.840 so whatever

00:33:22.640 you're looking

00:33:23.040 at is most

00:33:23.580 in focus

00:33:24.140 and then

00:33:24.660 when you get

00:33:25.960 to the edge

00:33:26.600 as it were

00:33:27.460 it fades out

00:33:28.100 and then you

00:33:28.400 can see

00:33:28.720 nothing around

00:33:29.440 it

00:33:29.720 and I take

00:33:30.620 that seriously

00:33:31.320 it's sort

00:33:31.780 of hanging

00:33:32.320 in nowhere

00:33:33.060 the view

00:33:34.840 there's nothing

00:33:35.600 above it

00:33:36.100 nothing below

00:33:36.680 it

00:33:37.080 nothing this

00:33:38.340 side of it

00:33:38.980 it's just

00:33:39.440 hanging in

00:33:40.020 space

00:33:40.560 and it's

00:33:41.640 single

00:33:42.060 so if you

00:33:44.600 look at any

00:33:45.120 two objects

00:33:45.860 you say well

00:33:46.280 that one's

00:33:46.720 bigger than that

00:33:47.480 you can

00:33:47.920 compare the

00:33:48.600 size

00:33:49.140 it's relative

00:33:49.760 I say now

00:33:51.280 look at the

00:33:51.840 whole view

00:33:52.480 how big is

00:33:54.000 it

00:33:54.240 and there

00:33:55.860 isn't a

00:33:56.380 second one

00:33:56.920 to compare

00:33:57.340 it with

00:33:57.780 so I can't

00:33:58.720 say how

00:33:59.060 big it

00:33:59.360 is

00:33:59.600 and so

00:34:00.980 there's two

00:34:01.340 things to

00:34:01.720 notice here

00:34:02.160 well two or

00:34:02.960 three

00:34:03.140 one it's

00:34:03.740 single

00:34:04.120 the view

00:34:04.500 out

00:34:04.820 I might

00:34:05.760 hear about

00:34:06.260 your view

00:34:06.720 but I don't

00:34:07.200 experience it

00:34:08.080 in my own

00:34:08.840 experience

00:34:09.460 like you say

00:34:10.880 in the app

00:34:11.300 it's a matter

00:34:11.860 of experience

00:34:12.480 it's just one

00:34:13.400 view

00:34:14.020 it fades out

00:34:15.640 into nothing

00:34:16.260 it's not

00:34:17.780 inside anything

00:34:18.740 I can't say

00:34:19.960 how big it

00:34:20.400 is

00:34:20.600 now

00:34:21.380 close your

00:34:22.340 eyes

00:34:22.720 see

00:34:23.200 now

00:34:24.320 so

00:34:25.780 you've got

00:34:26.720 a kind

00:34:27.040 of darkness

00:34:27.620 which

00:34:28.600 again is in

00:34:29.820 your app

00:34:30.240 as you say

00:34:30.960 it's kind

00:34:31.380 of lit

00:34:31.800 up

00:34:32.220 it's not

00:34:33.580 just nothing

00:34:34.220 there's

00:34:34.520 something there

00:34:35.280 let's call

00:34:36.500 it darkness

00:34:37.140 it's not

00:34:37.820 uniform

00:34:38.840 darkness

00:34:39.640 now how

00:34:40.960 big is

00:34:41.360 that darkness

00:34:42.100 well there

00:34:43.940 isn't a second

00:34:44.580 one to

00:34:45.580 compare it

00:34:46.120 with

00:34:46.320 it's single

00:34:46.820 so I

00:34:47.720 can't say

00:34:48.220 and is it

00:34:49.580 inside anything

00:34:50.800 well just like

00:34:52.340 the visual

00:34:52.800 view

00:34:53.180 no I

00:34:55.400 could say

00:34:55.860 it's in

00:34:56.200 space

00:34:56.720 or awareness

00:34:57.880 or consciousness

00:34:58.700 now I

00:35:01.060 move my

00:35:01.620 attention to

00:35:02.220 sounds

00:35:02.900 and I

00:35:03.920 hear this

00:35:04.360 voice coming

00:35:05.160 and going

00:35:05.660 and other

00:35:08.040 sounds

00:35:08.700 so if I

00:35:09.820 use the

00:35:10.500 same kind

00:35:11.300 of

00:35:12.100 words

00:35:13.480 the field

00:35:14.500 of sound

00:35:15.540 like the

00:35:16.000 field of

00:35:16.320 vision

00:35:16.580 that's all

00:35:17.340 the sounds

00:35:17.820 how big

00:35:18.420 is it

00:35:18.820 well there

00:35:20.940 isn't a

00:35:21.300 second one

00:35:21.800 to compare

00:35:22.220 it with

00:35:22.620 and is it

00:35:24.200 inside

00:35:24.720 anything

00:35:25.220 no

00:35:26.740 or I

00:35:27.320 say it's

00:35:27.740 in silence

00:35:28.440 so these

00:35:29.340 sounds are

00:35:29.880 coming out

00:35:30.400 of the

00:35:30.660 silence

00:35:31.020 going back

00:35:31.680 in

00:35:32.020 and I

00:35:32.980 think you

00:35:34.280 see here

00:35:34.680 developing

00:35:35.200 the first

00:35:35.640 person

00:35:35.980 language

00:35:36.380 I am

00:35:36.940 the space

00:35:37.600 in which

00:35:38.060 the darkness

00:35:38.660 is happening

00:35:39.240 I am

00:35:40.180 the silence

00:35:40.880 in which

00:35:41.260 the sounds

00:35:41.800 are happening

00:35:42.280 now I

00:35:44.040 move my

00:35:44.460 attention to

00:35:45.160 body sensations

00:35:46.040 and if I

00:35:48.320 put aside my

00:35:49.140 memory my

00:35:49.820 sort of map

00:35:50.560 and just go

00:35:51.120 by the

00:35:51.500 sensation

00:35:52.060 see lots

00:35:54.620 of different

00:35:55.080 sensations

00:35:55.720 now how

00:35:57.920 big is the

00:35:58.460 whole field

00:35:58.980 of sensation

00:35:59.660 well there

00:36:01.600 isn't a

00:36:02.000 second one

00:36:02.540 to compare

00:36:03.000 it with

00:36:03.440 it's single

00:36:04.620 see I

00:36:05.540 can't say

00:36:06.020 how big

00:36:06.780 it is

00:36:07.180 and is it

00:36:07.940 inside

00:36:08.340 anything

00:36:08.760 in this

00:36:11.020 awareness

00:36:12.220 now I

00:36:13.860 identify with

00:36:14.760 my body

00:36:15.180 sensations

00:36:15.800 often enough

00:36:16.560 so if I

00:36:18.020 say that

00:36:18.820 I can't

00:36:19.560 say how

00:36:19.860 big the

00:36:20.220 field of

00:36:20.680 sensation

00:36:21.140 is I

00:36:21.620 can say

00:36:22.120 I can't

00:36:23.080 say how

00:36:23.360 big I

00:36:23.840 am

00:36:24.160 I'm not

00:36:25.400 inside

00:36:25.800 anything

00:36:26.340 yes

00:36:28.800 I'm

00:36:29.300 single

00:36:29.660 I'm

00:36:29.920 alone

00:36:30.260 and then

00:36:32.340 finally we

00:36:33.100 can move

00:36:33.460 our attention

00:36:34.020 to thoughts

00:36:34.600 and feelings

00:36:35.220 so think

00:36:36.680 of a

00:36:36.880 number

00:36:37.200 there's a

00:36:37.660 thought

00:36:37.940 you see

00:36:38.380 and think

00:36:39.880 of the

00:36:40.180 face of

00:36:40.580 a friend

00:36:41.060 and the

00:36:41.580 affection

00:36:41.980 you feel

00:36:42.680 feelings

00:36:43.680 see or

00:36:45.220 anything

00:36:46.260 problem and

00:36:47.240 anxiety that

00:36:47.940 comes up

00:36:48.440 challenge you've

00:36:49.520 got

00:36:49.780 now

00:36:51.240 how big

00:36:53.160 is this

00:36:54.040 very complicated

00:36:55.160 field of

00:36:57.040 mind

00:36:57.580 well I

00:36:59.180 don't

00:36:59.480 experience a

00:37:00.160 second one

00:37:00.620 to compare

00:37:01.060 it with

00:37:01.540 see

00:37:02.480 and where

00:37:04.060 is it

00:37:05.220 well I

00:37:05.600 think as

00:37:05.940 the Zen

00:37:06.260 people say

00:37:06.820 it's in

00:37:07.640 no mind

00:37:08.300 or my

00:37:09.700 thoughts like

00:37:10.400 my voice are

00:37:11.160 coming out of

00:37:11.860 nowhere and

00:37:12.880 disappearing again

00:37:13.740 and this is who

00:37:15.800 I am

00:37:16.300 this open

00:37:17.440 space and

00:37:18.760 this is who we

00:37:19.280 all are

00:37:19.860 you see so I

00:37:21.120 don't know what

00:37:21.720 you're thinking

00:37:22.300 Sam or what

00:37:23.260 you're feeling

00:37:23.780 but I'm

00:37:24.680 convinced you're

00:37:25.720 the same

00:37:26.620 indivisible

00:37:27.780 space

00:37:28.620 containing your

00:37:30.380 particular view

00:37:31.560 you see

00:37:31.980 so now

00:37:34.560 when we

00:37:35.060 open our

00:37:35.680 eyes

00:37:36.200 well what

00:37:36.980 really changes

00:37:37.840 the space

00:37:38.780 is full of

00:37:39.280 colors and

00:37:39.720 shapes

00:37:40.120 magic

00:37:40.640 but one

00:37:42.340 is still

00:37:43.620 this

00:37:44.120 single

00:37:45.500 space

00:37:47.220 that contains

00:37:47.980 everything

00:37:48.520 so that's

00:37:49.800 a kind

00:37:50.300 that's

00:37:50.940 pointing out

00:37:52.480 the obvious

00:37:53.000 yeah well

00:37:53.760 that was a

00:37:54.280 great tour

00:37:54.900 so let's

00:37:56.460 start with

00:37:57.140 the place

00:37:57.900 we started

00:37:58.340 with the

00:37:58.680 open eyed

00:37:59.500 considerations

00:38:00.500 pointing at

00:38:01.560 one's own

00:38:02.120 face

00:38:02.780 and noticing

00:38:04.480 that there's

00:38:04.900 nothing to

00:38:06.100 see

00:38:06.600 and I want

00:38:07.580 to just

00:38:07.860 try to

00:38:08.580 channel the

00:38:09.600 skepticism

00:38:11.140 that some

00:38:12.980 listeners may

00:38:13.880 feel

00:38:14.260 and this

00:38:16.000 may be the

00:38:16.820 kind of thing

00:38:17.420 you've heard

00:38:18.040 a lot

00:38:18.420 but

00:38:18.740 and if you

00:38:19.980 can think

00:38:20.280 of other

00:38:21.460 challenges

00:38:21.940 that don't

00:38:22.440 occur to me

00:38:22.940 feel free

00:38:23.340 to raise

00:38:24.320 them

00:38:24.520 but I can

00:38:25.660 imagine

00:38:25.960 someone saying

00:38:26.500 well of

00:38:28.040 course I

00:38:28.520 can't see

00:38:29.440 my face

00:38:30.040 I can't

00:38:30.660 see my

00:38:30.960 own eyes

00:38:31.560 but I

00:38:32.580 know they're

00:38:32.920 there

00:38:33.440 right and

00:38:34.360 so what's

00:38:35.000 the what's

00:38:36.240 the significance

00:38:36.780 of this

00:38:37.320 you seem to

00:38:38.180 be suggesting

00:38:38.900 that there's

00:38:39.320 something profound

00:38:40.100 about the

00:38:41.500 eye not being

00:38:42.280 able to see

00:38:42.880 itself but

00:38:43.640 I know I

00:38:44.620 have a head

00:38:45.180 I know I

00:38:45.580 have a face

00:38:46.120 I know I

00:38:46.440 have eyes

00:38:46.880 in the middle

00:38:47.280 of it

00:38:47.640 what's the

00:38:48.720 point of

00:38:49.120 this

00:38:49.400 yes I

00:38:51.340 think there

00:38:51.920 are different

00:38:52.280 ways of

00:38:52.980 approaching

00:38:53.520 this and

00:38:54.620 I'm really

00:38:56.360 not in the

00:38:57.080 business of

00:38:57.580 trying to

00:38:57.980 persuade or

00:38:58.800 convince anyone

00:38:59.640 for a start

00:39:00.360 I'm just

00:39:01.240 happy to be

00:39:01.780 there

00:39:02.100 if you'd

00:39:04.600 like to

00:39:04.840 continue

00:39:05.140 listening to

00:39:05.600 this

00:39:05.740 conversation

00:39:06.300 you'll need

00:39:07.140 to subscribe

00:39:07.740 at samharris.org

00:39:08.900 once you do

00:39:10.120 you'll get

00:39:10.420 access to all

00:39:11.100 full-length

00:39:11.580 episodes of

00:39:12.140 the making

00:39:12.380 sense podcast

00:39:13.180 along with

00:39:14.020 other subscriber

00:39:14.700 only content

00:39:15.420 including bonus

00:39:16.660 episodes and

00:39:17.760 amas and the

00:39:18.900 conversations I've

00:39:19.620 been having on

00:39:20.080 the waking up

00:39:20.580 app the making

00:39:21.800 sense podcast is

00:39:22.740 ad-free and

00:39:23.900 relies entirely on

00:39:24.920 listener support

00:39:25.560 and you can

00:39:26.540 subscribe now

00:39:27.340 at samharris.org

Making Sense - Sam Harris

Making Sense of Meditation ｜ Episode 10 of The Essential Sam Harris

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript