Florian and his co-hosts discuss paganism and how it relates to white supremacy and white supremacy. They discuss the history of paganism, what it means to be a pagan, and what paganism means to them.
00:04:42.200It has a lot of different meanings, and it really doesn't actually mean anything.
00:04:46.460And so when we talk about paganism, we're going to go, we're going to frame paganism in several different definitions,
00:04:52.740and then we're going to examine and discuss these particular aspects of the overall kind of pagan umbrella.
00:05:00.760So, the problem is like with paganism is, you know, if paganism is defined to be, you know, all polytheistic, non-Abrahamic, you know, religions,
00:05:14.900then ultimately it means nothing because that, you know, the breadth from Pure Land Buddhism to Nordic, you know, paganism to, you know, Arab polytheism is so large.
00:05:32.900What they actually believe and how they live their lives and the theology, the culture and everything, they have almost nothing to do with each other.
00:05:40.020There are certain similarities and strains of interconnecting thought as there are in most of the world's religions, you know, belief in the supernatural and so on.
00:05:48.160But this term was essentially invented by anthropologists as a catch-all to describe, you know, these non-Christian religions
00:05:55.240because these non-Christian religions didn't really operate in the same way as a religion like Christianity or Islam or even, say, you know,
00:06:13.100Buddhism is fairly rigorously structured as well.
00:06:16.140And so I wanted to just open it up with just saying that I don't think that this definition is useful
00:06:19.840and that it's much better to examine the, you know, we'll talk about polytheism and then we'll talk about the culture and so on piece by piece.
00:06:27.600So having said that, I wanted to open it up to my panel.
00:06:30.000Any immediate comments you boys would like to make?
00:07:02.480So, I mean, if nobody has any screening points to add, we'll get into it.
00:07:07.540So if we want to talk about paganism, you know, in the sense of polytheism, right?
00:07:13.420So we can discuss polytheism a little bit.
00:07:16.400And so there are several different issues here when we talk about polytheism.
00:07:20.020One is the, you know, theological objections to polytheism, and then understanding what polytheistic pagan societies actually were when we say that they were polytheistic.
00:07:33.240And then there's polytheism as a stand-in for kind of animism or spirit worship, which is also how paganism tends to be used,
00:07:46.220where it's a catch-all to describe interaction with many different spiritual entities or spiritualist kind of view.
00:07:54.800So, I mean, just to talk about polytheism to begin with, there is not even agreement—this is the other thing about polytheism—not even agreement on what polytheism is.
00:08:04.660Because if you go to places like India or you look at what Greek and Roman scholars and philosophers wrote about the gods,
00:08:14.060you know, there weren't many people who believed that the gods were real entities, but there were large segments of the population who did not.
00:08:19.100They believed that the gods were not, you know, like, actual entities that floated around in their clouds and came down and, you know, had sex with all sorts of women and slayed their enemies and so on, right?
00:08:31.920What they believed is that these were poetic manifestations of the natural and divine law.
00:08:38.680That these characters were these kind of capital M myths that encoded the constitution of a culture and of a nation and of a way of being.
00:08:50.400You reminded me of something else, too.
00:08:53.280I've heard a lot of talk that these polytheistic religions, like, weren't even polytheistic originally.
00:09:02.360They were all originally just different aspects of the same god, right?
00:09:08.680And people would just start to choose to follow the aspects, and then it just kind of spiraled out from there into different gods.
00:09:15.220Yeah, I think I certainly tend to take the view of a monotheistic degeneration as a Christian.
00:09:22.320I think that there's also empirical evidence to suggest it, you know, and we look throughout ancient history.
00:09:28.100There are many examples of, like, resurgence of monotheism or ancient conceptualizations of what we would understand as monotheism.
00:09:40.080Or the difficulty that you run into is over time these degenerate into so many different kind of flavors and forms that the labels start to become meaningless, right?
00:09:54.800So, you know, we could say, is Plato a monotheist because he wanted to worship the logos, right, or the formal forms, right?
00:10:03.080Like the Romanian Orthodox Church, I know, almost reveres him as a saint, right?
00:10:07.860Well, is Plotinus, you know, the Neoplatonist, is he a monotheist, you know, despite the fact that he engaged in magic and so on because he believed in one god in a sense?
00:10:21.220You know, and so you start to deal with this.
00:10:25.120You know, Lao Tzu, Lao Tzu, like, is he these daoists monotheists and so on?
00:10:30.620You run into these problems with labels.
00:10:32.320But to get back to polytheism, so here's the thing.
00:10:34.620If we want to talk about polytheism as, like, the worship of multiple gods, I mean, we can give a pretty short critique of this, okay?
00:10:40.360If this is, like, what we're talking about with paganism, okay, it's dumb.
00:10:46.180Um, it's dumb because by necessity, if you believe, like, in the actual, um, spiritual existence of potent entities with defined limits and characterizations that came from somewhere, these are derivative entities.
00:11:03.340You're worshipping, you know, created powers.
00:11:06.680You know, these are not, are not the, the designers, the fashioners of the universe.
00:11:43.580Another difficulty is in the idea of exactly how real is paganism.
00:11:47.620On the one hand, we have Mount Olympus, which is a physical mountain that any Greek could have, um, with some, with a party of other Greeks climbed.
00:12:55.600Um, now, you know, we can get into that in a little bit, but I wanted to kind of stick on just kind of a strict critique of polytheism.
00:13:01.820And that's what I would say is the opening kind of argument in Savo is that, you know, you're worshiping something that is derivative and that which is created.
00:13:08.080Um, and if you believe that these are real spiritual entities that can do things for you, that interact with the world and have a stake in human affairs, right?
00:13:18.100Um, you know, then, uh, like, it's, it's, it's ridiculous to assume that, to, to give these guys honor rather than their creator.
00:13:26.760And more so, most of the, the pagan myths, uh, even, like, the Greeks, even Socrates critiques, they say they're not morally perfect.
00:13:33.900This was, uh, Socrates and Plato's critique of the Greek gods is that, you know, these archetypal figures, they do all sorts of equal stuff.
00:13:56.160So, yeah, it's not like they're really worshipping them simply because of the, uh, I don't know, venerating who they are so much as just their accomplishments, I would assume.
00:14:06.600We know, you know, these gods, like, um, we, we can deduce from, uh, um, from, from, uh, reason and natural law certain qualities of god.
00:14:19.060Um, and the thing is, is these, you know, this is what Socrates and Plato and Aristotle and the Greeks,
00:14:24.960their philosophical tradition, you know, they understood what the qualities of the transcendent divine, um, you know, monad, the source of all was, you know, all powerful, all perfect, unchanging.
00:14:36.020But we don't see these qualities reflected in the myths of the gods.
00:14:39.560And this is why I think that it's really, I don't think that, you know, I don't think that these were meant to be understood or worshipped mostly as, uh, you know, Thor actually floating around on a cloud with a hammer.
00:14:51.500Or, I mean, riding a six-legged horse around the sky.
00:14:54.380Well, another thing to think about is, we're, we're touching on an issue where, in Plato's dialogue with, um, Euthyphro, we, he asks a very pointed question.
00:15:04.700Is a pious man loved by the gods because he is pious, or is he pious because he's loved by the gods?
00:15:10.180And that's, if your gods are capable of defying virtue, if Zeus can rape your daughter or your wife, then what, what cause have you to take issue with this?
00:15:18.560Why, why are you, why do you feel you can tell a god what is right and wrong?
00:15:25.300And that's what it essentially boils down to, is that if we take these entities to be, like, literal, spiritual entities, you know, they become, uh, these kind of titanic demons.
00:15:37.720The gods are no better than their titanic forefathers that they replaced.
00:15:41.380Um, because we can see that, you know, if they're supposed to be personifications of the regularity and the order of the, of the cosmos, then they fail at that because they're, they're corrupt.
00:15:53.680They do all sorts of things which do not, um, uh, contribute to order and harmony.
00:15:58.720In fact, they have wars among themselves.
00:16:00.480Right, and so if these were perfect, if we're talking about, you know, the, the real ideal archetypes of, um, the universe, the cosmos, totally transcendent, then they would have no flaws, right?
00:16:14.620They totally conform to virtue, but they don't.
00:16:17.980And even the ancients understood this.
00:16:23.020Right, and that's what I would just say is just like, you know, this is not, these entities, if we're, if we're taking them to be a literal spiritual beings, are not fit for worship.
00:17:11.740You make a very, very good point here, Rude, is that when people offer blood sacrifice, um, they're not, they don't offer it for no reason.
00:17:19.260You know, we have to understand in the mentality of the ancient world that to sacrifice cattle or, or, or oxen, which are the highest form of, of animal or the highest form of offering in both the ancient Hebrew and Greek tradition, uh, this is like sacrifice.
00:17:35.440This is like letting money on fire for the ancient Germanics, as we've talked about before cattle or orcs, their ancient horn cattle.
00:17:43.760Now, the rune for that was the same rune as for liquid currency, movable capital.
00:17:58.200And so very, the, the, the sacrifice is a very, very powerful, um, I would say it is the core action of human worship.
00:18:06.880In fact, in Hinduism, this is explicit that the first god Agni comes forth to offer the burnt sacrifice of, of the, the, the god that has been, uh, the, the kind of titanic entity that has been chopped up.
00:18:19.240It's the same thing in Babylonian mythology with Tiamat and so on.
00:18:22.120So the, the, the notion of the, the sacrificial offering as the core element of human, um, civilization is everywhere.
00:18:32.000But the first thing after the Adam and Eve are expelled from the garden is, uh, you know, with, with, um, their sons, their children, is the, the, the worship of God, the burnt offering.
00:18:43.520You know, you kind of reminded me of, um, because you mentioned sacrifice, you're only talking blood sacrifice, but I was thinking in other terms of sacrifice, like, say, your time, your carnal desires.
00:18:55.160Um, you reminded me of something, uh, uh, uh, it was actually Hartese that pointed this out about the Old Testament Hebrew religion.
00:19:03.220Um, all these seemingly pointless, stupid rules that you had to follow or, or you'd get in, you know, you might get stoned to death.
00:19:13.540A lot of people criticize the Old Testament or herder.
00:19:17.200Look at these stupid Bronze Age savages.
00:19:19.800They weren't, they, they would punish you for wearing mixed fiber clothing.
00:19:24.700And I'm, and I'm thinking, well, yeah, back in those days, you got to look at it like it was just an extended gang and you were constantly at war.
00:19:32.460You had to have, like, your nation's colors on at all times because you never know when you're going to have to grab a spear and go fight the heathens.
00:19:41.240There are all sorts of reasons for this, right?
00:19:42.800But there was, uh, more things to this sacrifice.
00:19:45.000It was really, all it boiled down to, like, all these seemingly pointless and petty rules God made were not just because it was sacrificing their, uh, their time.
00:19:56.960It's because when you have people being so focused on, on these kind of small rules and sacrifices, they can't violate the big things.
00:20:06.800And, like, if you're too busy doing all this petty shit, well, what you're not thinking about is, you know, stabbing your neighbor and stealing his wife.
00:20:19.260So, I mean, if we want to get into a discussion of sacrifice, we can talk about, there's a couple of different things here.
00:20:24.660We can talk about the actual operation of a sacrifice itself and the metaphysics, what's going on here, the theological rationale for this, the universal, you know, act of it.
00:20:33.680And then we can talk about the sociological and moral ramifications, Doc.
00:20:37.940So maybe we'll talk about Dutch on that first.
00:20:40.240So, yeah, with the sacrifice, exactly.
00:20:42.260So a sacrifice is, in a sense, a stand-in for a spiritual offering.
00:20:47.660Because a sacrifice is the embodiment of life, your life that you've raised, you've given it to it, right?
00:20:53.460You spend all of this time and energy, you know, fattening this calf or cattle, and then you just, you burn it and you offer it to God.
00:21:10.800It shows you, you learn to place value in things that are higher than the economic and the physical.
00:21:17.040Yeah, I was about to say that sacrifice as well.
00:21:20.060It gets you invested in not just your religion, but by extension, your society, if you want to look at it from kind of a secular reason for it.
00:21:32.860So we talked about it on the show before when Christ cleansed the money changers from the temple, right?
00:21:37.500Now, it's important to note that Christ was not objecting to selling sacrifices.
00:21:43.300Because, like, if you think about it, if, you know, if you go, let's say you're, you know, a Jew in 2000, you know, in 0 AD, and you, you know, travel 500 miles to Jerusalem for a religious holiday, you know, you're not going to walk your cattle all that way.
00:21:58.000You're going to need to buy, you know, a cow for a sacrifice and say if you're rich, you know, oxen, you know, in the temple.
00:22:04.180And so this is important because this is part of this part of the economy.
00:22:06.920And in fact, the Aztecs, their whole civilization was run in the human sacrifice economy.
00:23:33.380And in terms of also, it's, it's good for us to remember on our money is printed in God we trust.
00:23:41.020So we, we've never really ventured away from this idea of our money is in some way a higher power.
00:23:48.740It's something that people invest themselves in and it, it doesn't change from era to era.
00:23:55.640And the more our currency has changed and become debased.
00:23:58.960And I mean, if we can think about it, I know we talked about it in this show a little bit and it's definitely come up in, if you've listened to Dr. Johnson's podcast.
00:24:07.040But wealth used to be extremely concrete, whether it was cattle or grain, we since moved to precious metals, which are even more, they're more useless than those, but they're pretty, they can be fashioned into things.
00:24:20.100And then we moved on to paper saying it was worth X amount of this currency, this actual coinage.
00:24:29.080And then we moved on to, we're, we're now in something so abstract, it doesn't exist.
00:27:18.860So, with the sacrifice, here's the other thing I think will be interesting to talk about.
00:27:21.980We'll talk about the sacrifice, and then we'll kind of go to a different subject.
00:27:27.480So, metaphysically, we look at what's going on with the sacrifice, a blood sacrifice specifically.
00:27:34.420An altar was originally set up for the slaying of an animal.
00:27:41.600You would kill an animal, and its blood would run down the altar.
00:27:44.740And so, what's going on is you're offering the life of the animal, all of the energy, all of the spiritual capital, all of the power necessary to bring it to fruition.
00:27:55.160You're releasing that and offering it specifically to something, a spiritual entity.
00:28:00.320And so, we see in the Old Testament that when the priests, sometimes when the priests would offer before the Ark of the Covenant, the Shekinah, the glory of God, would come down upon the burnt offering.
00:28:15.660And this is the other thing, is that you kill the animal, and then you offer it as an incense.
00:28:21.580So, this is a, the Hebrews thought that the Greeks were really decadent, because Greeks would kill their animals, and then they would eat the meat.
00:28:31.260Yeah, and that's something, like, it's very similar.
00:28:33.080It's like, I think the Norse had a similar thing when they would kill an animal.
00:28:35.240They would actually, like, sprinkle not only, like, the altar and the structure, they would sprinkle the people because of that spiritual energy when it was a good kill.
00:28:59.720So, there would be, there were holocaust offerings, and then there were other ceremonial offerings, I believe, that were not totally immolated.
00:29:08.740So, I'm not a super big expert on the Levitical temple priestly law code.
00:29:12.860Yeah, I remember that the priest, as part of his sustenance and his payment, what he could do is take the burnt offerings, and he would boil them, and then take a gaff or something, and he could take a portion of the meat for himself.
00:29:29.540This would also tend to happen at temples, like the temple priesthood would take a slice of the sacrifice and so on.
00:29:35.180But anyway, back to the metaphysic, this is what I wanted to explain.
00:29:37.920And so, what happens is that this ritual that you do is, you know, has always understood to be a highly sacred and powerful spiritual act that evokes, that summons the presence of the entity that you're glorifying.
00:30:08.100You're rending the veil between the spiritual and the physical world by transitioning a soul from the body into the spiritual plane.
00:30:15.860And so, you're opening up, essentially, a door for spiritual entities to come through.
00:30:21.720Now, that can be good if it's a good spiritual entity, specifically God, the uncreated entity, he who is, that you're offering sacrifice to.
00:30:30.780Obviously, in the New Covenant, you know, we're Christians, we have the perfect, unbloody sacrifice of Jesus Christ, where the Logos himself shows up.
00:30:40.480And so, that's infinitely better than any blood sacrifice.
00:30:43.960But I wanted to get into this to explain this to our listeners, that when you offer a sacrifice, even if it's to a poetic entity, you know, spiritual entities take notice.
00:30:57.580Those spiritual entities take notice, even if that's not, you know, who you want to respond to you.
00:31:04.140It comes down to a lot of superstitions when it comes to, like, leaving that door open.
00:31:08.140Like, there's a lot of people who won't do, you know, crap, like, any kind of witchcraft, any kind of, like, Ouija board stuff.
00:31:13.300It's the same kind of concept of, like, leaving that door open.
00:31:16.360It's good if you want, or rather, it's good if you can get, say, you know, as you mentioned, God the uncreator or whatever, but, yeah.
00:32:02.720It's, you know, spiritually very dangerous.
00:32:06.760Because especially when you start making sacrifices to idols, right?
00:32:10.880And so, I mean, a God cannot just be, you know, an idol worship cannot just be like the classical spiritual pantheon.
00:32:16.300I mean, it can also be, you know, idols of your own making, right?
00:32:21.460So, in pagan world, you know, in the pagan culture, in pre-Christian Mediterranean culture, every household had their own gods that they venerated.
00:32:30.780You know, and so you could set up an idol like a shrine to local river spirits or so on.
00:33:50.460And so, you get everything from, as we said, you know, Buddhism, you know, and, you know, Greek paganism, and, you know, African paganism, and so on.
00:34:00.640But they really have nothing to do with each other.
00:34:03.200I mean, like, for instance, you know, Buddhism, you know, Buddhism doesn't believe in the existence of a creator god or a monad.
00:34:10.520It believes that the highest echelon of reality is the kind of samseric flux, you know, it's the dissolution of the ego into pantheism, essentially, which is tantamount to atheism.
00:34:23.260And that's why some people have called Buddhism a philosophy, not a proper religion.
00:34:51.880And so this is the, I mean, you know, this pre-esoteric Hitlerism, it's not a new meme, just for our esoteric Hitlerist listeners there.
00:34:58.780Yeah, emperor worship is not a new meme.
00:35:00.800Just to throw that out, too, let's not forget the book, The Lightning in the Sun by Sabitri Devi.
00:35:06.640Well, I say, you know, there's some good, she makes some good points in that book, but she doesn't really have any serious understanding of Christianity at all.
00:35:13.200It's just her understanding is, like, laughable, it's like a joke, it's worse than Avila.
00:35:18.260I'm not saying it was a bad book, but, I mean, yeah, you're right on that part.
00:35:30.580And so, yeah, just to get back to it, so this is the problem we ran into, it's like, so, oh, you're a pagan versus Christian, it's retarded.
00:35:57.020But both of them fall under that title.
00:35:58.580You know, what is, what is like, you know, a Southern, you know, Evangelical, you know, worst, you know, Boomer Baptist, you know, you know, in vitriol fertilization of black sperm for his wife type thing.
00:36:29.380So Southern and Baptist, Southern being a function of location and Baptist being the convention, not Southern Baptist in their specific denomination.
00:36:38.480You know, I know that there are, listen, to be clear, I mean, it's not about Protestantism.
00:36:42.760You know, we've talked about it before.
00:36:44.260Obviously, I don't agree with Protestant theology.
00:36:46.260I think most of it's really, really dumb.
00:36:47.740But I just, you know, there are many, but I would just say, no, just, you know, obviously, there are many very honorable and good and, you know, virtuous Christian Protestant men who are more honorable than I am, more Christian than I am.
00:38:15.640And so that's what we have to discuss.
00:38:17.160And that's going to, what you believe is going to change that.
00:38:20.040And so we have to go kind of case by case.
00:38:22.460We make broad generalizations, obviously, for purposes of just general discussion.
00:38:28.260But if we want to have a serious talk about what does it mean to be, you know, a neo-pagan or a neo-Platonist or, you know, a Hellenic classical pagan, you know, we have to be specific is what I'm saying.
00:38:44.900Another thing that I find it difficult when I'm trying to discuss, and I always try and discuss things with pagans in good faith, although, inevitably, the discussion always tends to go south.
00:40:00.140At the moment, we have bigger enemies to fry.
00:40:03.220That's one reason why I really hated the Iron March and TRS schism, too, because I like them both.
00:40:09.360You know, I like my boys in Iron March.
00:40:12.400And it's like we have bigger enemies to deal with right now.
00:40:17.940And I've noticed that a lot of the pagans have kind of gotten a hint on that and are like, yeah, why are we going to argue with Christians about whose god is better?
00:40:59.160Just as it was the case for ancient ancestors, it is the case for our people now.
00:41:03.620Now, however, you know, Christian history for the last 1,500 years has been—or rather, European, as a Freudian slip, but European history has been Christian.
00:41:13.940And the foundation of the European identity as a pan-identity, right, is Christian.
00:41:20.800And so Roman particular identity is one thing, Roman imperial identity.
00:41:26.620But if we want to talk about, you know, whiteness, Europeaness, we have—you know, we can't—cannot overlook this culture value.
00:41:33.620But my general philosophy is, you know, if pagans want to come in good faith and we believe the same things, we're fighting for what's right, for natural law, you know, I'm willing to work with them to save our people from physical destruction.
00:41:46.500You know, but I do think, you know, the issue, you know, and there are many good pagans, and I've met them and known them, and a lot of the guys who—a lot of those guys tend to be kind of more reserved and intellectual, and they don't talk about it all that much.
00:42:03.100However, you know, there is a big crowd of the Kaikin-a-Stick types, and we're going to discuss this later on in our own specific subject.
00:42:14.760The issue with that is just, you know, if you want to—you can't—if you interact with us in bad faith, right, you know, we're not going to treat you with—we're going to treat you in kind.
00:42:24.140I mean, you can—you can go ahead, Arud.
00:42:27.500Yeah, I will say one thing really quickly.
00:42:30.520The difficulties that we find ourselves when the discussions defray into—or they just completely devolve into complete masochistic and sadistic just melees of words.
00:42:46.420A lot of that happens because we disagree on particulars, and we think in completely different ways.
00:42:50.860I—we'll get to this later, but to—in my understanding, the pagan mind is an atheist mind, and it operates on atheist particulars about—and assumptions about the universe that will never, ever be reconcilable with the Christian understanding and worldview.
00:43:04.160Yeah, frankly, I think that there is a merit to that view.
00:43:07.140I think that there is merit to that view, and I want to discuss this because I think that this is a—this is an issue for Christians, and for very serious Christians, this is a serious issue.
00:43:16.540Um, because what—when you have a revelatory view of divine law, um, your worldview changes considerably.
00:43:47.700He allowed it to occur as punishment for our sins.
00:43:50.260He said that it would occur to us if we sinned against him, but he did not make man to die.
00:43:54.460And so if your view of the cosmic order accepts death as, um, like a natural, you know, good part of—part of how things ought to be, rather than something that we just have to deal with, um, as a consequence of how, you know, corruption, right?
00:44:11.040That's a huge, major, uh, shift in worldview and thinking and lifestyle.
00:44:16.220Right, the Ouroboran view of the universe, the snake-eating itself, where it's just a cycle, it repeats, as opposed to the Christian view, where Christ breaks the cycle and Christ stands in the center of the universe and holds it together.
00:44:34.660That's the key difference in our worldviews, which—and it also comes down to certain assumptions about the world that when I—when I look for an explanation for something,
00:44:45.640I don't start from the assumption that—it's difficult to argue Christianity with people, I'm backtracking a little bit, but it's difficult to argue because they start from the assumption that God isn't real and everything that you posit is ridiculous.
00:45:01.280And it does sound ridiculous if you're not willing to grant the vaguest of notions that perhaps God is real.
00:45:08.980It's funny, it actually does take a certain spiritual—a spiritual mindset to actually just engage in that discussion alone.
00:45:16.560Right, well, you have to agree on a whole bunch of things before you can have a real argument.
00:45:25.580I find I talk a lot of epistemology these days when I argue with people because whenever I come across somebody who I think might even be in good faith, right, you have to try to figure out, like, well, does this person even believe in truth?
00:45:38.320Right, because there's no point in having a downstream discussion if they don't think it means anything.
00:45:43.680You know, and so we have to—this is something that we really—we should do a Mysterium episode on this, but we have to—how do we know truth?
00:45:52.360Right, because this is the foundation of a worldview, right?
00:45:54.420If we're supposed to be about truth, right, if we're supposed to live our lives surrounding that, if that's why we do what we do, why we fight what we fight for, now how do we know truth?
00:46:05.620Right, and so if you get into arguments, you know, the problem with pantheism, and that's what a lot of this paganism boils down to, is that the cosmic order is incarnate in the physical universe itself, and it's part of the endless cosmic flux cycle.
00:46:19.760The problem with that is this just reduces it down to nothing.
00:46:23.240There's nothing eternal except the cycle of change itself.
00:46:26.600You know, the—what success is, is simply to dominate in the cosmic order and to go with the cosmic flow, so to speak.
00:46:38.380And so what that means is that, like, there's no—you know, the truth is not transcendential.
00:46:47.780It's ultimately bound up with the cosmic order.
00:46:50.340It's not necessarily separate from it, or beyond it, I should say.
00:46:54.100And this is the problem that you get into, is that oftentimes pantheism just means atheism, because the firmament of reality that you derive all of your other assumptions from your—for how logic works, for how the universe works, for how ethics works, morality works, is radically different from any notion of a personal creator god.
00:47:20.360Or even a transcendental demiurgy logos.
00:47:25.900Right, and this brings me back in a round way to what I was going to say immediately after talking about the difficulty of discussing things with pagans, which is, I have a book and a number of documents of clarifications on that book of things that I believe.
00:47:43.360It's the Bible. It's the Bible. It's the patristic commentaries on the Bible, and it has—the Bible is, of course, structured of many different sorts of writings.
00:47:53.960Some of it is prophetic. Some of it is like the sagas. It is like numbers.
00:48:00.560This happened, and that happened, and that happened, and that happened.
00:48:02.900But when I come to discuss things with the pagan, they will offer the Edda—well, Freya did this, and then Freya did that—and it's stories which in their own have merit, but they have no credo statements.
00:48:18.580They have no I believe. I—we can posit because of this. God said to do this. God gave us this wisdom.
00:48:25.680We were taught to live this way. It's stories. I think the Oralinda book is about the closest I've heard to anyone articulate an actual God told me to do this, and I do this because God described this as morally correct.
00:48:39.700Yeah, that's true, and this is the thing.
00:48:43.460Basically, you're just going to draw from Father Raphael Johnson, and this is what he says, is that there's no pagan theology.
00:48:49.120There's no pagan councils. You know, there's no pagan Bible, no pagan church fathers, you know, no pagan canon, and so on, and like the—so you can't—religion, you know, capital R, religion, right, has a certain set of defining variables, and that word, because of, you know, this kind of syncretism that has been pushed by our enemies,
00:49:14.040that word has become expanded to basically mean everything from Buddhism to, you know, orthodoxy, and thus it means nothing.
00:49:35.680So we have to define religion—you know, religion has creed, cult, and constitution, or the three classic anthropological markers of a religion.
00:49:46.640You know, so it has a definite set of beliefs, right?
00:49:51.000It has a specific set of worship, a cult surrounding something, you know, gods, concepts, scriptures, all something, right?
00:49:59.400And then it's got constitution, and that means that it has, like, a way of doing things, right?
00:50:05.440A constitution is not just, like, a physical document, but it's, like, the firmament of a people, the base upon which everything is built, a lifestyle, right?
00:50:15.600And so if it doesn't actually have these things, then, you know, we don't classically—we can't really categorize it as a religion because it's really more folk ways, right?
00:50:25.040And that's what I wanted to get to as an excellent transition, and then we're going to hit the break after this.
00:50:30.580Paganism as the expression of culture, as the expression of folk ways, as the poetic personification of, you know, the natural order, you know, I think it's great stuff.
00:50:41.580I think that's part of who we are, and I think that there's a lot of wisdom to be gained here, and I think that, you know, to quote Justin Martyr, a philosopher,
00:50:48.300our God is Logos Pramakator, Christ the seed sower, and that all men, by the light of natural reason which God has given them,
00:50:57.360can come to know something of the cosmic order, which ultimately reveals and points towards Christ.
00:51:04.440And so, you know, if we look at Baldr, or we look at Osiris, or we look at Marduk, and so on,
00:51:11.720we see elements of Christ, the cosmic order, personified in them, you know, it's not that, you know, Christians appropriated this.
00:51:20.160I mean, it's just that the Logos is imperfectly represented in the poetry of these figures.
00:51:27.100That's not what the Zeitgeist movie told me.
00:52:46.380It's like, well, then that means that everybody, in some form or fashion, was trying to interpret the truth of God and the truth of Christ.
00:52:57.700But for whatever reason, be it their culture, be it their own limited understanding,
00:53:02.920they came up with this other kind of myth instead and failed.
00:54:03.400Is that something was so attractive to these warriors about Christianity, even in cases when Christianity would make them stop being warriors, they would go into it.
00:54:11.460So, I just use this to demonstrate that, you know, if we look at even modern missionary activity on the part of the Orthodox,
00:54:17.780when St. Herman of Alaska and St. Innocent went to Alaska to evangelize the Aleutians and the Tlingits, you know, the Indians there,
00:54:25.200where they did everything that they could to preserve their culture, and they translated the Bible and Scripture into their culture and did the liturgy in their language.
00:54:33.880And so, authentic Christianity is about taking the natural goodness, the natural flourishing of life, the flowers of paganism, right?
00:54:43.680And you graft them on to the root of truth, which is the worship of the Logos of God, Jesus Christ.
00:55:39.020I think that what happened is that, with the exception of, like, Lithuania, you know, the vast majority of Europe adopted Christianity and integrated it into their existing culture.
00:55:51.220And there are some circumstances where, yes, a minority of circumstances, where the indigenous culture was forcibly suppressed by an imperial ethnic power, typically.
00:56:01.820So, it was Germanics oppressing Celts, as they had been from time immemorial, or Romans oppressing Celts, as they had been even when they were pagans.
00:57:08.580And so the, we have to, the, the Christianity is like a Jewish Semitic religion, is, you know, preposterous, right?
00:57:16.560You know, there are, obviously, it comes out of, yes, you know, the Hebrew Semitic tradition.
00:57:20.560But if we look at what Christianity was, even by the time of the Didache, the Didache is how it's commonly pronounced, but it's really, Didache, 70 AD, right?
00:57:29.480The, you know, even in Jewish communities, you know, there were, uh, you know, it's not the same thing.
00:57:36.920And we have to, it's, it's ridiculous assertion.
00:57:39.800And so the Hellenic culture of the ancient, um, Near East, you know, was totally subsumed by Christianity.
00:57:48.800They, they, they were integrated into one another in a harmonious fashion.
00:57:53.160And this is why the high philosophical culture of, say, Greece, you know, the, the, the letter, like, think about this, right?
00:58:00.420We're going to say pagan is a casual term for folkways or, you know, non-Christian culture.
00:58:06.680Then we can't write with Roman or Phoenician characters.
00:58:17.900You know, so it's like, is the number too different for the Greeks, for the pagan Greeks, than it is for the Christians?
00:58:24.280Well, that's another thing where if we, if we can't use foreign things, if we can't use foreign folkways, and if indeed paganism is folkways, um, a lot of our mathematics has to go.
00:58:43.500And so that's the thing is, uh, it's just, it's, you know, if we, any, it's ridiculous to oppose, uh, and you see this among some people, some Christians especially, like, who will oppose, you know, paganism as a folkway.
00:58:56.000And this is, and unfortunately, like a lot of Protestants, it's like this.
00:59:01.140It's frank retardation, and you, you hate yourself is what you do.
00:59:04.540And so, you know, the, the people call elements of, um, what were you, like, we're, we're going to get into this, but like, I mean, we're coming up on the break, actually.
00:59:14.520There's so many different tangents and categories we could go into the weeds with the subject that I want to, um, control us a little bit.
00:59:22.220So is there any other final, um, comments people would like to make on this before we go into the break?
00:59:28.980Well, I'm going to take that as consent.
00:59:34.940Um, so, thank you to our listeners for listening to Hour 1, and we're going to be back in the second hour to continue our discussion of paganism and cover Kali Yuga news.
01:08:12.980So, having discussed most of the meat of what we wanted to cover with more classical paganism and the term at large, now I think it's time to discuss the most relevant politically sense of paganism that is neo-paganism, modern folk religionist movements, especially in the European nationalist communities.
01:08:36.020So, I, you know, I want to just, I want to open it up because I know that I think everybody here has something to say about it and not talk for way too long.
01:08:58.200I'm sorry, Brian, I just, I just had a spur. It wasn't really me, like, starting an actual coherent thought.
01:09:05.980Oh, okay. Well, you know, we appreciate your contribution.
01:09:09.080You know, what about you, Ruud? Initial thoughts on neo-paganism?
01:09:17.580Uh, it, we, the word LARP gets overused a lot, but it really, it feels like people are trying to do something that just can't be done, although it, it has sort of old trappings, it's just like remade in, in modern image.
01:09:37.480It just, it just honestly feels like that guy in Whiterun screaming, like, about Talos worship, like, we are worms riding, like, I love, for all Tamriel!
01:09:55.640No, it brings you up, it brings up something else that we talked about, very similar about how, you were talking about how we can't use certain things from other cultures if you want to have that kind of look on it.
01:10:04.460We had that just before the break, and it's the same way where I don't get the, I don't get the logic that a lot of American neo-pagans have with that, because a lot of them do it, to my understanding, because of, you know, it's a white identity thing.
01:10:19.680But A, it seems like every neo-pagan I see is a, I don't know the proper term for an odinist.
01:10:26.560They have different answers, there's Asatru, the folk religion, odinism is also another one.
01:10:31.300But yeah, it's always, like, odinism, it's always, like, this Norse paganism, and we've been talking, there's, like, a whole realm of, at least, paganism as far as, like, white European, like, proto-religions.
01:10:47.860I gotta throw this out, just because it's hilarious, so I know this girl, she's, like, a five-foot-even, 98-pound chick who likes to do cam-whoring, and she's half-Jewish.
01:11:22.120As if you, as if you needed more proof that Jewish girls all have Holocaust fantasies, the fact is, she's still friends with me, even though I've blatantly, even though I'm pretty blatant about what I am online and say, gas the Kikes, race war now.
01:11:36.900Yeah, and this, this pulls back to another thing, is it folkways, or is it theological?
01:11:43.060If it's folkways, then it, you, let's stop calling it a religion, let's stop doing it that way.
01:11:49.700But, but, in other terms, um, like, let's look at, um, the president, I believe, of the Asatru, um, or Asatru, uh, folk gathering, a guy named Stephen McNail, and he's probably a great guy, probably a decent guy, but he was born to a family of Roman Catholics, and he, he's a Mick, um, an Irishman, a son of, uh, the Hibernian Isle, and he's an Otis?
01:12:36.600So, one of the things is that when, um, when the early Christian missionaries first showed up, it was a lot of, a lot of Druids in Britain and Ireland converted to,
01:12:44.520Christianity, which is how, uh, it spread so quickly.
01:12:48.680So, so maybe we should, we should thank the Germanics and the, the Nordics and the Latin, Latinis for, for crushing the Celt culture then.
01:12:59.380And then, when the, cause, it's clear, even to the Celts, they thought that their own paganism was so friggin' toxic because of how quickly they converted and how, how much, you gotta admit, the Celtic peoples, they, they really did have a lot of, uh.
01:14:23.480Um, and, uh, so, I mean, that, that for me, I mean, colors it a little bit.
01:14:28.280I mean, that was basically the, the whole gist of, um, you know, why I was doing it is because I thought that it was a, uh, you know, a more authentic, uh, cultural expression.
01:14:40.920I was, uh, somewhere, some, some place I thought that, uh, you know, it had meaning and identity and so on.
01:14:45.820And then I realized that it was nothing because it was, uh, a completely artificial tradition.
01:14:51.980And that's the thing is like, unless you're a Hindu or a Shinto, you know, you're not, uh, in a living, uh, tradition of, of paganism.
01:15:03.820And, like, literally, the, the word Hindu is also a constructed term.
01:15:08.320The word in, um, in, uh, Sanskrit and Hindi for what, what the, the religion that they practice literally means that which has been received.
01:15:20.860And so, if you don't actually, if you have not actually received these folkways, right, from your ancestors through the living link of tradition, then, like, you're not legitimate by definition.
01:15:30.720You know, I mean, as Christians, we might even call this apostolic succession.
01:15:49.940That's, that's where I get my authority from.
01:15:52.040Well, and it's, it's, it's something else.
01:15:54.460Like, it's one thing to venerate, like, the folk, well, not to say venerate in the religious term, but, like, you know, you appreciate the folklore of old, you know, old European identity.
01:16:03.340It's like, as a kid, I fucking loved to read about, like, old, you know, old pantheons and shit.
01:16:31.440But I think that this is part of our enemy's plan, which is the dissolution of the European peoples.
01:16:36.200They want to destroy unity and cohesiveness as much as possible.
01:16:39.360And whether you like it or not, the factor behind the unity and cohesiveness of the European civilization was Christianity, Christendom.
01:16:48.100And that's been occurring with, like, the disintegration of Christendom with the Protestant Reformation, then before that with the schism between East and West.
01:16:53.960So it's, in a thousand years coming, it's not a saying.
01:17:39.680And so it's, I think, what I mean, I don't mean that just to say, oh, pagans are like this.
01:17:42.780No, but I think it's, like, it demonstrates that there's a lot of, you know, if you grow up in a culture where all you're exposed to is, like, shitty, cocked Christianity.
01:18:02.840It's, you know, a lot more pro-life for the cosmic order than those forms of Christianity are.
01:18:08.200And so, like, I get it, you know, I understand why people, if you're choosing between a lesbian bishop, a female priest, and, you know, your local, you know, white nationalist, Odinist assembly or whatever, why you would want to go drink meat and sacrifice goats to Wotan.
01:18:45.760Oh, it's like, it's, well, when you put it like that, to them, it's like, it's two choices.
01:18:49.860You either have this, you know, empty, feel-good theology of what comes with a lot of, like, just eroded Protestant establishments.
01:18:58.640Because I'm not going to shit on Protestantism too much.
01:19:00.580You know, people know how I feel about it, but I'm not going to go all out.
01:19:04.160And you have people, basically, who are, you know, going together in brotherhood and whatnot.
01:19:09.380But that's a modern thing, whereas with, you know, this corrupted Protestant theology we see in places like Sweden, that is also modern.
01:19:16.760But that's basically just because it's eroded over time, and it's basically trying to appeal to more people to fill pews.
01:19:23.140Yeah, we need to get into a big thing.
01:19:26.180You know, I got to throw this out, because now I got, um, this is a rehash of a story I told years ago on the Rebel Yell Forum mixtape episode.
01:19:36.540So I think I'll just bring it up again.
01:19:38.280Just the toxicity of the social gospel.
01:19:41.980I mean, so here I am, because this is actually the manosphere that got me to do this.
01:19:47.360So I'm in North Carolina while I'm in college.
01:19:50.200And I'm just, I'm just checking out, um, all these different churches.
01:19:55.860Because I've been seeing reports from the Red Pill subreddit that it's all become a bunch of feminized faggot shit.
01:20:03.300And I wanted to see how bad it was, uh, for myself.
01:20:06.280And I was like, well, maybe there might be a decent girl to meet in all these.
01:20:09.700Well, unfortunately, all the decent girls are fucking jailbait, because the problem with that, with these churches, once any girl becomes of age, she immediately leaves, especially if she goes to college.
01:20:20.120Then she's going to immediately become a whore.
01:20:22.820Yeah, there might be problems with attention.
01:20:24.380And the rest, the rest of the women in this church, they're a bunch of single moms who are looking for the good, beta, uh, nice man to be, to basically foot the bill for her bad decisions in life.
01:20:37.080And so I see this, you know, they do the children's, like, rather than, like, a sane church where the kids just get separated from everyone else and they spend the first hour in a little Sunday school, they do a quick children's lesson in front of every one of us.
01:20:50.620And they bring this, this fucking humongous ham planet of a woman out to teach these kids.
01:20:57.100And it's, and it's like some Mother's Day lesson, and she mentioned something, and I think my exact words in that Rebel Yell episode were, because she mentioned something about how, um, people used to think that the, that the sun and all the universe revolved around the earth.
01:21:14.660And I, I think my exact words were, yeah, you'd know something about a gravitational pull, you fucking fat ass.
01:21:19.740And, um, and, and then, and then she goes, like, and, and, uh, kids think that the, that everything revolves around them, but they have mommies and daddies and this kid, and then, and then, you know, then this, this, the most ill-behaved little degenerate of a child, he pipes up and says, I only have a mommy.
01:21:40.260And I'm, I'm just like, yeah, no shit.
01:21:43.320And, and, and that's, that's all that this social gospel faggot shit is, is just feel good nonsense.
01:21:50.400And, you know what, looking at that, I full, this is where I have to white knight for these pagans a bit, because if that is what passes for Christianity, what happened to the manliness, the, the, the, the fire, the, let us smite the enemies of the Lord with a sword in one hand and a crucifix in the other as we slaughter them in droves
01:22:12.440and take their women as war brides, in the name of Christ, of course.
01:22:17.340Whatever happened to that, instead we got this feminine, faggoty, weak bullshit that only a boomer could like.
01:22:25.540No wonder we're seeing men turn to paganism.
01:22:29.420I don't blame them one bit if this is what, this is the Christianity they're around.
01:22:34.340Well, doctor, it kind of goes, it kind of goes to that, like, when saying, I think it's like, I remember, uh, accredited to, like, Osama bin Laden about the whole weak horse, strong horse thing.
01:22:42.440And I, I can kind of relate to that too, it's like, um, because I, at first was a Protestant, I grew up Lutheran, and I've been to a lot of low Protestant fucking churches,
01:22:50.660and the moment I kind of got a taste of, like, actual, you know, I don't know, actual theology, actual ritual,
01:22:58.040and then, like, it was like, bam, I want to get more involved in where I am now, the Roman Catholic Church.
01:23:02.140And then I look back in history, and you can see from the Crusades, not just the battles, I mean, holy wars are nice and all,
01:23:07.920but just the tangibility of faith that a lot of Christian warriors and a lot of Christian rulers in the Crusades had.
01:23:14.140Like, we had, like, Godfrey Bouillon, who, what was it he said?
01:23:17.800Like, he would not wear a crown of gold where his, his savior had worn a crown of thorns.
01:23:22.480And he, you know, he refused to be called a king.
02:06:41.620You know, they're probably not going to ban the porn, right?
02:06:44.280But they're going to ban Daily Stormer.
02:06:46.460You know, or, uh, Ruse Journal, or Radio Arian, or whatever, right?
02:06:51.480So anyway, so this is, there's this issue here.
02:06:54.020But it's, things are getting spicy in Germany, boys.
02:06:55.940And I think that we all know how this is, when it's going to end.
02:06:58.720Um, if the tensions are not quelled in Germany, it will explode.
02:07:03.940Uh, because there's no way, I just, uh, if you, if you bottle people up like that, right?
02:07:09.980As soon as, as soon as the system, uh, not even the system, but there's a matter of, you know, agitation and response.
02:07:16.380And so the Western world is, uh, remains pacified by the palliative, palliative care of bread and circuses.
02:07:25.180What's going on is in Germany, the quality of light is dropping so sharply because of the economic malaise created by the Syrius financial system and the importation of all of these migrants.
02:07:35.660And the physical rape and murder of the nation at the hands of the invaders, that the immune system naturally creates antibodies in response.
02:07:47.620And so I think, I think that man's, that the spirit, the spirit of man is fundamentally indomitable.
02:07:54.040And I think that God will always raise a remnant, uh, you know, up out of, uh, the nation to, to attack when things are this dire.
02:08:23.120Everyone's waiting for everybody else to go outside with their rifles and nobody wants to be the first one because the punishment for being the first one or the first 10 or the first hundred,
02:08:31.820or possibly even the first thousand is very severe.
02:08:35.660The, what Germany's doing is they're making the punishment for not doing it almost as severe.
02:09:15.940Um, so this is also, I wanted to pair this article with one I have from the Daily Stormer, which is,
02:09:25.860Dutch court convicts 20 people for a bad think and wrong post.
02:09:29.560From the author Spartacus, the thing about free speech is that it's not free speech if it causes hurt feels.
02:09:36.240When are evil Nazis going to realize this?
02:09:38.440From the Associated Press, a Dutch court convicted 20 people Thursday of insulting and threatening a politician and television personality in a racially charged case that shocked the nation.
02:09:49.780Um, and it basically is what they did.
02:09:52.360The court said in a statement that the heaviest sentence, 80 hours of community service, went to a man who superimposed the head of Simons,
02:09:58.740this, this, uh, Negro member of parliament athlete who advocates for Dutch, uh, for mass immigration is a woman on videos, on image, video images of a Klu Klux Klan lynching.
02:10:11.920Others were given shorter work orders or fines.
02:10:15.380Many people saw the video and were confronted with discriminatory images of people with dark skin, the court said.
02:10:21.620Yeah, so that's basically, uh, this is basically what's going on in the Netherlands, is when you post, uh, mean pictures, mean pictures get you, uh, community service.
02:10:35.020Remember, remember, mean words are just as bad as violence, but when, when the, when Arab Muslims go and blow things up, it's because white men said mean words,
02:10:46.700and that's why you shouldn't say mean words and just, just convert to Islam and chop your son's dick off already.
02:10:53.300But, I mean, also prima facie, like, it's a totally legitimate comparison.
02:10:57.400Um, because, you know, these, like, if you're, if you're a politician, you know, if you're a foreigner politician injured in the Netherlands advocating mass immigration to the Netherlands under the auspices,
02:11:07.640like, under the pretensions of being a good Dutch citizen, you're a traitor.