Nephilim Death Squad - The 501c3 System w⧸ Zack Killey of Salty Saints Podcast

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00:01:42.280 Welcome back to another episode of Nephilim Death Squad. 0.80

00:01:54.240 I am David Lee Corbo, a.k.a. The Raven.

00:01:56.660 That is Top Lobster, a.k.a. Mr. Nasty.

00:01:59.060 And this is Matthew Hefner, the merchant of brown water and host of Straight Bible.

00:02:05.600 Where we interview people and have a good time.

00:02:07.400 You don't interview people on that show.

00:02:08.880 Oh, jeez. Can you focus, Matt? Look at the shot. Look what you're doing.

00:02:12.220 This is just bad. It doesn't matter anymore.

00:02:14.780 Anyway, guys, before we get into today's show, if you're wondering where you can support us, consider going on over to patreon.com forward slash Nephilim Death Squad.

00:02:21.260 Getting early access to episodes, ad-free, listening experiences, first dibs on tickets to Brohemian Grove, which is tentatively the 6th and 7th of March.

00:02:31.420 And we'll be doing that VIP day straight from the standard coffee shop slash NDS studio slash casino slash fab shop, where we are Guam-ing at you live from right now.

00:02:42.160 Plus a discount code off of merchandise from TopLobster.com.

00:02:44.540 I'll get you a stoned ape theory Bigfoot shirt.

00:02:46.120 Oh, you're wearing that shirt.

00:02:46.920 Why not?

00:02:47.440 There you go. Have one of those. Why don't you?

00:02:49.960 Go ahead.

00:02:50.820 They say they sound like moose.

00:02:52.680 Moose. Who sounds like moose?

00:02:55.080 As a little throwback to earlier episode of The Raven.

00:02:58.660 Anyway, joining us today is Zach, and we're going to talk all about the 501c3 system.

00:03:06.100 Before we talk about any of that stuff, let's tell everybody where they can find you and what it is that you do, Zach.

00:03:11.660 Yeah. So, honestly, it's kind of weird to even be here because I'm literally nobody in this sphere at all.

00:03:18.280 Uh, I've just been listening to the show for a while, but I'm a pastor.

00:03:21.880 Um, I'm a barber and I had a podcast for, uh, like three ish years and we kind of called that quits recently.

00:03:30.240 Not totally. We're going to be putting a little bit out, but if you want to reach us, uh, it's salty saints podcast.com.

00:03:36.320 Be careful. If you look up salty saints on YouTube, you're going to run into a Mormon apologetics channel. That's not us. Don't do that. So, uh, oh dude, our name's been stolen like twice. Uh, we're yeah. Which is kind of part of why I was like, let's maybe hang this up. Maybe. I don't know.

00:03:53.060 So, so I want to say that, um, apparently we, we ridiculed you and made fun of you on a episode of Chronicles, which is, which is awesome. Actually, uh, you had submitted. And I remember when you said salty saints, I said, why does that sound familiar?

00:04:05.880 I looked at my podcast and I had subscribed. I remember listening to a couple of episodes. It was a good show. It's a shame that you stopped it or, or hopefully you started up again. Um, but it was a really good podcast. And I remember a little bit about the story while we were talking about it before we started. And it was like, what did you say? Uh, uh, baby stealing Babylonian, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I wish I, I wish I could, uh, remember that episode. Um, because whatever I read in there was enough to make me

00:04:35.760 subscribe to the show on Apple podcast. So, I mean, I don't know what you're doing. Uh, hopefully you started up again, but I urge everybody who's listening to go find salty saints, not the Mormons. Um, but your show, I know it's at least on Apple podcasts and go subscribe. Maybe, uh, maybe we can inspire you to fire it back up again. 0.58

00:04:53.920 Yeah. There, there are a couple of, uh, salty saints, um, uh, channels out there. So look for the one with a little anchor. That's us, but yeah, right on, man. Well, I appreciate it.

00:05:03.520 Gotcha. Gotcha. So, um, what are we setting out to talk about today? I know you're currently

00:05:09.320 and the, the, by the way, I can tell that you got a set of hair on you. So the barber.

00:05:14.540 Thanks brother. Yeah, I try, I try. It's like one of my only finer traits, so I'll take it, but yeah.

00:05:22.120 So, so what exactly, um, are we gearing up to talk about here in regards to the 501 C3 system?

00:05:29.060 Um, well, okay. So when I saw you guys labeled the episode that I was like, oh crap. Cause that's

00:05:33.720 like only a piece of this thing. Um, I, I do want to talk about the 501 C3. I think it's kind of, uh,

00:05:41.220 I think it has played a heavy hand on where we're at today as the church. I do believe that, um, more

00:05:47.980 though, what I would like to cover today is the, uh, great commission. And I believe that that is

00:05:54.960 kind of crucial to this whole church thing. Like that's, that's sort of the heartbeat of who we've

00:06:00.120 been called to be. It's one of the last things Jesus said to us before he left. And, you know,

00:06:04.360 if you think famous last words are generally what we remember people by, right? I mean,

00:06:08.140 those are some of Jesus's last words to his people is I need you to do this. Right. Um, and so

00:06:14.800 I would like to talk about that. Uh, I want to talk about the 501 C3, but definitely the heartbeat of

00:06:21.280 this thing is the great commission. So then can I recommend, let's, let's go through the 501 C3

00:06:26.840 system because I'd much rather end on a, can we start at the beginning? Uh, what is the beginning?

00:06:31.940 I don't know. Like, yeah. So you're a pastor of a church. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us a, tell us a little

00:06:37.420 bit about that. Tell us what's going on with that. What are we, what are we missing? What are we

00:06:41.240 getting right about the church and what we're seeing in like what denomination there's a lot to go

00:06:46.120 into? So I understand where, yeah. Um, why does a pastor listen to the show? I want to know

00:06:52.500 of a pastor that listens to this show. Um, okay. So let's start with the, why I listened to this

00:07:02.160 show. Um, I love conspiracy theories, which actually, if we've got a few minutes at some

00:07:08.980 point in this, I would like to talk about Indiana with you guys, cause you bring it up all the time.

00:07:13.280 And I, I don't know, I might have a few things to throw in the arena there, but I want to hear

00:07:17.860 your thoughts too. Um, I love conspiracy talk. I, I think you guys nail it as far as like,

00:07:25.780 you guys are pretty in line with like the high zoology, uh, going kind of the Gary Wayne route.

00:07:31.680 Like that's, I feel like those are kind of backbone pieces of this whole structure. Um, and then,

00:07:37.300 you know, you've got like Jerry Marzinski tacked onto there. You've got like all these other pieces

00:07:41.900 that play into that. And I think it's a pretty cohesive picture of where we may be behind the

00:07:47.100 scenes in the world. Right. Um, and I enjoy that you guys explore those things. Um, you know what,

00:07:53.200 we can't have all the answers on those things, but I like that you guys are trying to do it through a

00:07:56.700 biblical lens and, you know, from the get go, like, uh, I mean, you guys are wild and you say some wild

00:08:03.360 things and I can't always side off on all of them, but I still love you guys. And, uh, I, I have

00:08:10.300 enjoyed watching you guys, like just growing in Christ and latching onto the word and letting that

00:08:17.000 kind of guide things. Um, it's just been cool to watch, um, because it's real. It's not fake.

00:08:22.860 It's not showy. You guys are just being yourselves and you're actually trying to follow Jesus.

00:08:27.200 And I would take that any day versus a polished sermon. So I like you guys. Um, I, not that

00:08:34.220 polished sermons are bad, but if it's coming from a fake place, then it sucks. And a lot of them I 0.97

00:08:38.660 feel like are. So, um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Matt comes on the show and, uh, I reached out to him

00:08:48.400 how long ago, man, a couple of months ago we talked for a little while. I think you might've been

00:08:52.640 the first person I talked to. I think you might've been the first NDS man. Okay. So that's

00:08:57.380 real quick, Zach about Matt. Matt does the laundry list. We're about to get into, huh?

00:09:02.880 Well, yeah. Big problems to a lot of, he'll, he'll do a thing. He'll go, this person is talking to me

00:09:07.820 or, or right, right. Hold on. Yeah. He'll go like my wife, my wife said this and this and this. And

00:09:14.700 then they go, no, that's, that simply didn't happen. Or he'll go, you know, somebody reached out to me

00:09:18.880 about that previous episode. And they had a lot to say. Meanwhile, somebody is nobody at

00:09:22.960 all. Nobody. It's Matt. It's Matt playing psychological games. So when he says,

00:09:28.280 I'm muted. I muted his mic. Cause I now have the power. Okay. Okay. It's I would say safely 70%

00:09:37.580 of the time Matt says that you can assume that he's making it up. This is like a lot, but a 30%

00:09:42.400 is strong. Yeah. That's a strong Chuck from Guam. I thought he was, I didn't think he was real.

00:09:47.800 A complete figment. Turns out he's real. Yeah. We, we don't know anymore. So Zach from Indiana.

00:09:53.800 I do remember. I am real. I am real. And he said, um, you know, it was just interesting because

00:09:59.700 is this real life? This is well, now it is real life. But, but, uh, Matt said that, you know,

00:10:04.320 his conversations about the 501 C3 system had, you know, made it all the way to a pastor and that,

00:10:10.020 uh, whatever, say it like that. I'm paraphrasing. I don't listen to half the things you say,

00:10:14.380 so I can't really recall them in any meaningful way, but it's an accurate statement. Um, you know,

00:10:18.720 that it had stirred something up and a conversation became of it. And, you know,

00:10:23.460 I thought that that was interesting, especially to watch, uh, Matt, who was new to podcasting

00:10:29.020 already have said something that he was engaging with the fruits of, of, of that, you know, episode.

00:10:35.600 And I thought that that was fascinating. Hey, thanks, man. I didn't,

00:10:38.440 there wasn't a compliment in there. No, that was a, that was like the nicest thing you've ever said.

00:10:41.980 I don't think there was a compliment, but the fact that there wasn't a, uh, you know,

00:10:46.480 derogatory statement towards me is basically a compliment. I don't do that. I don't do a

00:10:50.260 derogatory. All right. Okay. So if I remember right, that conversation was just like, Hey bro,

00:10:56.080 I hear you like bashing the 501 C3, but I don't know, you seem biblical. And so, well, okay. So, 1.00

00:11:03.100 so let me, I gotta be careful. So like when, when I say 501 C3, like I'm, I'm, I'm a pastor. I'm not

00:11:09.300 well-versed on the ins and outs of like, um, how, how the money side of things works. I like, dude,

00:11:17.120 I I'm so not helpful when we have like money talks at the church and things I'm looking at numbers.

00:11:22.740 My brain turns off. That's not the world I live in. And so like, I'm not going to be,

00:11:28.340 I'm not going to be much help to you here talking about like how I think things should be structured

00:11:34.760 as far as taxes go in the way, like not that. Planet fitness has everything you need anytime

00:11:42.080 the motivation hits. So you can give everything you've got with most clubs open 24 hours. You've

00:11:47.920 got access to our best in class equipment to tackle early morning reps, late night miles,

00:11:52.180 and every workout in between join the club today and save $28 or more when you join for just $1 down

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00:12:04.260 $49 annual fee applies. See club for details. Planet fitness has everything you need anytime the

00:12:10.760 motivation hits. Join the club today and save $28 or more when you join for just $1 down $15 a month

00:12:16.380 cancel anytime deal extended through January 16th, $49 annual fee applies. See club for details.

00:12:23.320 What I do see though is the, not only the 501 C three, but the church growth movement,

00:12:31.160 both come about through the like evangelical movement. And I think both of those things in

00:12:37.980 tandem have shaped the church from a community based focus and this like spiritual family, if you will,

00:12:47.220 to more of a business model. And that's where a lot of my concerns come from.

00:12:51.740 And it's strong armed, a lot of pastors into living in this place where, um, I mean, we're going to be

00:12:59.360 jumping all over the place. So I apologize. Literally. I mean, that's what the show is about.

00:13:03.620 If it was about anything, it's about, uh, being incohesive in our conversation. So please continue.

00:13:09.040 Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, it, it's kind of strong armed. A lot of pastors, I think it's being in this place

00:13:16.040 where like, we, we have kind of changed the scorecard of what church is all about. Like Jesus's

00:13:21.480 scorecard is like bringing people from spiritual death to spiritual life where they are now living

00:13:27.820 obedient lives to Christ and transforming the rest of the world with their brothers and sisters that

00:13:34.160 they are also planting seeds to bring to Christ. Right. Today, the scorecard in the church is

00:13:40.560 butts, bucks, bricks, and baptisms. Like who's sitting in, how many people do we have sitting

00:13:48.060 in seats? How much money do we have coming in? Do we have a building big enough? Let's build bigger. 0.96

00:13:53.400 And how many people did we dunk underwater this month? And that is a far cry from what Jesus set

00:14:02.380 up. And we've kind of shifted the narrative on who's in charge of doing what Jesus set up. And so

00:14:09.700 that's where all my concerns come from. And the way I think that this kind of bridges with what you

00:14:15.300 guys are all about is, I mean, this show is literally about like the powers and principalities,

00:14:20.660 the forces of this dark world, the things operating behind the scenes. And my argument is the way we

00:14:27.560 combat those things isn't like the way the world wages war. Right. I mean, what, what Bible verse

00:14:33.860 is that? Second Corinthians. Yeah. Second Corinthians 10, three through five. For though we live in the

00:14:41.180 world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the

00:14:45.880 world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and

00:14:51.580 every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. And we take captive every thought

00:14:56.600 to make it obedient to Christ. Right. Like that's how we combat the darkness of the world.

00:15:03.400 We kind of have this knee jerk reaction though, I think, to get mad at the idea that there are like

00:15:08.880 big bad guy, big bad guys pulling strings behind the scenes. And it's like, I would argue the way

00:15:14.420 Jesus says that we overturn that system is one heart at a time by planting a seed of the gospel

00:15:20.320 in that person's life and then training them up to follow Christ. Is that fair?

00:15:25.380 That's interesting because if you think about what we're, I often look at like, you know,

00:15:29.620 the sort of the propaganda machine, this big programming that's imparted on us by Hollywood.

00:15:34.440 Hollywood loves to show you a definitive bad guy and loves to show you how to war against that.

00:15:39.900 And I just think like, you know, not only is it the antithesis of how we're meant to combat,

00:15:45.960 you know, the world or, or these powers and principalities, these things in the spirit realm.

00:15:50.360 Um, but it's also, we're so subjective to, uh, what would you call it? Like storytelling in

00:15:57.580 particular, there's something unique experience where a lot of our ideas are hijacked by compelling

00:16:03.440 storytelling. I've been subjected to generations of compelling storytelling that tell us the exact

00:16:08.860 opposite of how to deal with some great enemy. There is a great enemy, right? But the way that

00:16:15.020 you go about fighting it, isn't the way that we're, I mean, we just got finished doing a show

00:16:18.980 on stranger things and stranger things is, you know, it's, you have even still this sort of demonic

00:16:25.280 spiritual, and there's no shortage of big demonic baddies in Hollywood films, but how are you dealing

00:16:30.740 with them? You know, your own psychic powers, your, your sword and shield. Um, and, and I just think

00:16:37.260 that it's something that we are subjectable. Is that the word that I was looking for before when

00:16:42.000 I said subjective, I might've made up some word. I think you just made up another one. That's fine.

00:16:45.260 Again, that's fine. Um, but, uh, we are really easily swayed by that, that good storytelling.

00:16:52.960 And right now the storytelling is telling us you fight them with your swords and your shields and you

00:16:58.360 physically destroy systems and you fight big greasy baddies. Um, but that's a pretty important

00:17:04.960 distinction to draw from our, our fight isn't with flesh and bone, but, uh, with powers and

00:17:10.540 principalities in the spiritual realm. Well, so even based off of what you just said, right. That

00:17:15.120 like Hollywood is trying to like always characterize it, that we're supposed to go fight this war with a 0.97

00:17:20.500 sword and a shield and everything. Scripture recognizes that it's just scripture twisted around

00:17:25.680 and says like, yeah, but like, it's the sword of truth and it's the shield of righteousness. And you

00:17:30.980 know what I'm saying? Like, it's like we it's biblical principles that that is how we do this

00:17:36.500 thing. So like, I like the scripture doesn't deny our desire for storytelling. It just gives us a

00:17:43.620 truer insight into what those things really look like. I had a bit of a crisis. Um, not a crisis.

00:17:50.560 I wouldn't call it a crisis, but like, you know, everybody who listens knows I'm, I'm new to all

00:17:54.900 this hot dog crisis. No, that was that I had a hot dog solution and be in the break there. And it was

00:17:59.480 just fine. It was a cup full of hot dogs. But, um, I had 15 hot dogs in the garbage can. I made

00:18:07.240 everybody throw all the garbage cans away before we left for a week. And it was loaded with hot

00:18:11.620 dogs. I don't want to air out his personal business. Can you stop? Sorry. This isn't

00:18:15.920 about my hot dog consumption. My bad. It is your bad. Um, but I had just started going to church in

00:18:22.460 the grand scheme of things. How long has it been? Uh, six months. Yeah, just about maybe even,

00:18:26.780 maybe even less than that. And I had this moment where I became a little disenchanted,

00:18:30.360 uh, with this system and this isn't the bash it. I'm just expressing this, this moment that I had,

00:18:35.360 I was listening to Ed Mabry. He's talking about the little season. One of the things that he

00:18:38.280 highlights in this episode and the confessionals is that he went to school for, uh, he majored in

00:18:43.360 psychology and they had a course at some point on hypnosis. And one of the things that he learned

00:18:49.280 was this idea of like anchoring a thought or, uh, um, whatever the goal is to impart upon the,

00:18:57.440 the hypnotism victim, you would anchor it in a specific word and you would enforce that with

00:19:03.280 touch with physical touch. And then he starts talking about how that relates to being in the

00:19:08.620 pews and getting that, that notion of turn to your neighbor, you know, touch them and say,

00:19:13.640 God has a plan for your life, something like that. Right. And what you do is you get this mass

00:19:18.380 repetition going on, which of course, that's a big, you know, part of hypnosis as well.

00:19:22.520 And then you, you have this now, after I saw that I, I, I became unable, unable to unsee it.

00:19:30.520 Wait, wait, wait. So Ed was saying that that whole thing where they say, touch your neighbor and say

00:19:34.620 the physical touch is like an anchoring. And it's like a psychology. It's a, it's a method of hypnosis.

00:19:40.380 Yeah. Method of suggestibility. Yeah. So they do it in mass hypnosis. Like,

00:19:43.600 you ever see when some hypnotist gets on stage and they managed to do it to an entire crowd.

00:19:47.360 The question is where and when did they get taught that as a pastor?

00:19:50.380 And I'm not saying that that is inherently wrong. Well, Zach, hold on. Zach seems like he knows.

00:19:57.020 I definitely, I, well, I don't want to, I don't want to cut you off. Go ahead and finish your

00:20:00.700 thought. This guy's been talking all day. Go ahead. He's crotching right now. I just want to

00:20:04.360 finish this. I just want to, I have, I always have energy. So, um, through that lens, I then begin to

00:20:10.380 see all these other elements where they'll say a thing like, uh, you know, it's been a hard week,

00:20:17.020 right? And then you go, can everybody say hard week? And everybody just goes hard week. And it's

00:20:22.020 like, anybody say hot dogs. Can I even say, how many hot dogs have you, can I hear, can everybody

00:20:27.160 say hot dogs, everybody say nine hot dogs, you know, and you, you repeat, and then everybody else

00:20:33.220 repeats these things. And so I have an aversion to that. I don't like the idea of hypnotism and

00:20:41.920 don't, don't fall for it. Well, it explains why. And literally my wife will tell you who 1.00

00:20:47.680 my wife, there has been times where my wife has been standing next to me and they'll go, um, 0.57

00:20:54.900 turn to somebody and tell them you love them. And like a psychopath, I will, I'll stare directly

00:21:00.160 ahead and I'll go, no, audibly, audibly. I'll say no. And my wife will even at that moment be

00:21:06.620 filled with shame a little bit. I don't do well with that sort of thing. God made me a specific way.

00:21:13.880 And I'm not saying that it's wrong to do that. Maybe there's something to be said about priming

00:21:18.100 an audience, getting them in this, in this headspace. We look at it as negative. We look at it as you're

00:21:23.400 trying to manipulate me to get me to do something or to get me to believe something. But if what you're

00:21:28.220 trying to get people to accept is scripture, maybe there's a different mindset that is helpful to be

00:21:33.860 in before scripture is read. I don't know. I'm just saying I'm built in a way that makes me reject

00:21:40.640 that. So like to your point, like, uh, man, that's a lot to cover. Uh, so like if, okay,

00:21:48.900 starting at the, like, maybe there's a different mindset to go into, to receive scripture. Like,

00:21:53.440 I think that is very real. Um, we will often start our church services or even our sermons,

00:22:01.800 like with a prayer. And I'll even say like, Hey, let's pray for a second to like, get our hearts

00:22:07.520 focused, like our minds, like primed to receive God's word. Right. There is something to that.

00:22:13.900 Um, Matt talked about that in the study on Jude, uh, like the whole singular focus,

00:22:21.380 that being what like a, uh, a good eye is right. That it's a single eye that it is a wholehearted

00:22:28.040 focus on. Like we have to consciously tap into that. That's real. Um, so there is something about

00:22:33.660 that that I think is like biblical and good. Then again, there's the weird, like everybody repeat

00:22:40.100 after me. So I know I've got you on the same page. And like, sometimes that's cool. Cause I just want to

00:22:45.280 know you're listening sometimes. Yeah. I'm, I'm not big on the, can I get an amen thing? I don't play

00:22:50.120 that game. Like I, I'm not going to lie. I was in a Pentecostal church once and they were doing it.

00:22:54.460 And so I kind of like hammed it up for a second because it felt kind of nice. It was like,

00:22:57.700 they're listening. This is really awesome. If I want to give you an amen, I'll give you an amen.

00:23:02.060 Don't ask. Yeah. No, yeah. That's cool. That's cool. But like, um, a lot of this stuff, man,

00:23:07.820 like I think it comes from planet fitness has everything you need. Anytime the motivation hits,

00:23:15.220 so you can give everything you've got with most clubs open 24 hours, you've got access to our

00:23:20.900 best in class equipment to tackle early morning reps, late night miles, and every workout in

00:23:25.720 between. Join the club today and save $28 or more when you join for just $1 down $15 a month.

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00:23:56.120 We see other people do it and we go, that's what that's supposed to look like. So I don't think on

00:24:02.340 a lot of people's parts, this is like a conscious effort to go like, I'm going to hypnotize this crowd.

00:24:06.580 I think it's like maybe somewhere along the line, could somebody have had a malicious desire to do

00:24:11.600 that? Maybe. But I think it's more likely, like for instance, like the Enneagram, I'll hate on the

00:24:17.900 Enneagram all day. The Enneagram, it's like, do you know what Myers-Briggs is?

00:24:23.740 I know, I'm retarded. Please go. 0.95

00:24:25.880 Personality test.

00:24:27.560 Oh, okay. Yeah.

00:24:29.020 Super, super popular in the church sphere. Comes from Father Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr is a Catholic

00:24:37.060 priest, gives it to the masses, writes a book on it. It gets super, super popular in even like

00:24:42.360 evangelical Christianity. But when you tap into like one, who Richard Rohr is, the dude's a 0.97

00:24:47.860 universalist. Like he teaches some crazy, like it doesn't matter, like it's all about the Christ

00:24:54.040 consciousness. It doesn't matter if you get it from Jesus or from Gandhi or Buddha, as long as you see

00:24:59.280 that. And it's like, why, why are we teaching this dude's teachings in evangelical churches? Just

00:25:06.680 because you read a book and it made you feel good.

00:25:09.520 I don't mean to cut you off, but I just want to make the point that they both come back to the

00:25:12.740 same thing. The whole like, uh, hypnotizing, put your hand on somebody and you know, uh, it's repeat

00:25:19.660 after me or the Enneagram. Both of those things just come from humans, church humans.

00:25:25.360 So what is the, what is the mini gram or it's like, you're a number, like a tiny, you would be

00:25:30.580 like a number seven and he's a number four. We're like the Bible in no way ever labels people by

00:25:35.340 number. Here's the description of who you are based on if you're a number one or two. No, no,

00:25:41.000 no. We get our identity from the word of God. We get our identity from God. We don't get it from

00:25:44.640 the world, but that's what I'm saying. Both of these things is like people bring things that like

00:25:48.660 there's this book about the love languages. People just bring this crap and it doesn't come from the 0.79

00:25:54.380 word of God. And it doesn't come from the mindset of the word of God plus is what you're talking 0.99

00:25:58.380 about. Right. But it's worse than that. It's just like, it's corny. It's like, well, you Bible, 0.55

00:26:03.200 there's a ton of content there. You don't have to go into like human thinking to bring stuff to the

00:26:09.180 table. Like just use the word of God and keep that biblical view of everything you do.

00:26:13.700 Well, and I would take it a step further, even with like some things like not to, like,

00:26:18.660 I do not want to derail this into the Enneagram. Cause that's like a whole episode. And I'm honestly

00:26:23.040 not totally flushed out enough on it in 60 seconds. But, but I will say like, if you trace

00:26:29.340 that all the way back to where it came from, it comes back to spirit writing, a guy or automatic

00:26:33.520 writing, a guy puts his hand to paper and asks spirits to write through his hand. Like it goes

00:26:38.560 all the way back to the occult. And so it's like, that has found its way into the mainstream church

00:26:43.780 because it got popular and a pastor told me it's good. And it's like, yeah, but it's not.

00:26:48.820 And so like, there's a lot of that, but I don't think it's malicious. I think it's from ignorance

00:26:54.660 a lot of the time. Yeah. You know, I recognize that, um, even on, even on a fundamental level,

00:27:01.500 repetition is a useful tool for learning. Right. So with, especially with children, which,

00:27:07.940 you know, I'm going to go out and say it, that we have a pastor that's taking over soon.

00:27:12.200 Don't like the way that he don't know. No, it's okay. Oh, he's a youth pastor. He's a youth

00:27:16.000 pastor and, and he has, um, a way of delivering scripture that is already tailored towards

00:27:24.760 children. So there's a layer of it. That's kind of patronizing, but it's also like, oh,

00:27:29.940 I get it. Like my son, for example, he was just like, I really don't like the part of church

00:27:35.500 where they make us scream the same scripture, like six or seven times. And I go, oh, that's,

00:27:41.320 that's, that's, what's happening with the adults is you're, you're, you're trying to enforce these

00:27:46.180 values, this scripture, this information on us. And you're using methodology that is kind of proven,

00:27:53.600 right. Repetition is proven. Or if you wanted someone to, uh, really remember a thing, a sense

00:28:00.340 of touch might do that. So I, you know, I don't want to get off and say, oh, it's all definitively

00:28:06.320 bad just because it is, there are techniques, there are techniques better through what we've

00:28:12.760 been doing with what I've been doing with my life, not necessarily just this show, my life is like,

00:28:19.720 I'm doing sales, right. I'm selling t-shirts where promoting a product in a way, money,

00:28:25.220 give us your money. But I don't like to use the standard, um, coffee shop, the standard coffee shop.

00:28:31.880 I don't like to use the standard format of selling these things because it seems disingenuous. But

00:28:37.080 like, as we were talking with Wes just before this, in a sense, it is sales, it is suggestibility,

00:28:42.700 but like, how do I, how do I do that in a way that is not just cookie cutter cringey the same way?

00:28:50.500 And why is it so conflicting? Why is it conflicting when I do that? Why does it feel bad? Like if I've

00:28:56.000 tricked somebody, I've used the technique to trick them, but to tell them the right thing.

00:29:00.520 Yeah. And it's like, I don't know.

00:29:03.320 Don't you just put out a rad thing and let the chips fall where they may.

00:29:06.640 That's what I do.

00:29:07.220 And the issue with the, um,

00:29:08.380 That's all we do.

00:29:09.080 With the, uh, the repeating, they're asking, uh, Jack to like repeat stuff, repeat, is it's akin to,

00:29:15.440 uh, memorization and like memorization is how you end up with Pharisees who can memorize and repeat

00:29:22.240 the entire law, but it's never registered to them and they, it's never affected them and they're not

00:29:27.160 actually living it. That's how you end up with that. With Jesus telling people who could like,

00:29:31.500 probably recite the whole law, like by heart. And he says, you don't know the scriptures. You

00:29:36.940 err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. That's how you end up with that. Like,

00:29:41.140 imagine if I memorize the names of everybody in your family, you know, the guys, they come in and

00:29:46.800 they say, they've memorized the names of all my family members and say, ask how each one's doing.

00:29:51.220 But it's like this weird sales thing, almost the way people talk. That's totally different than

00:29:54.900 people who know my family and ask, how's Bella doing? How's Aiden doing? How's Jess doing?

00:29:59.780 It's the same thing in the word of God, man. It's like, you can just memorize stuff or you can

00:30:04.600 actually like take it to heart in a real way. And I don't know all those fake ass ways of doing stuff 0.92

00:30:09.600 just makes it very fake for people. It makes it where it doesn't stick. Some people though, 0.82

00:30:14.200 there's a lot of people that like this. Like what? The whole methodology we just laid out.

00:30:20.900 And I don't want to call it fake. Like we came away from church this week where David was like,

00:30:27.440 he said, very funny. I don't want pastor Mark. Yeah. I don't, I don't want this. Like he takes

00:30:34.940 this and slides it away. I don't want this thing. And I'm like, I get it. But there's, there are other

00:30:39.680 people there that like this thing. Yeah. What, what does that thing create? You rush, you rush to

00:30:46.160 stop him. You're like, don't let Matt win. I didn't say that. Look at the church thing. Like it's me

00:30:50.520 against you with that church. It is. It's always me. And you're like, don't, don't let Matt win.

00:30:54.060 No. Say you still like it. Yeah. Well, he's on most things, but you get very nasty. Delete the

00:30:58.720 chat about 501c3 systems. You get very nasty. I haven't lately. I feel like I'm kind of just

00:31:04.180 like, whatever. Yeah. It's look, the 501c3 system itself is not terrible. It's, it's the way it's

00:31:11.600 sort of strong armed the church into its current position that sucks. Like it's not, it's not the 0.94

00:31:18.260 thing. It's the way we've let the thing change what we should be doing. That's the problem. You

00:31:24.540 know what I mean? Um, and to be like back to the whole, like, you know, some people, some people

00:31:30.820 like this current thing, I would argue less and less people like this current thing. Um, if you look

00:31:38.020 at like, you guys ever heard of Cary Newhoff? No, not familiar with it. He's a, it's, it's

00:31:43.920 carynewhoff.com. He, every year he puts out something. It's like a, it's like N-I-E-U-H-O-F, 0.87

00:31:50.800 I think. But every year he puts out a blog called like seven disruptive trends for the church in 2022,

00:31:59.400 2023, 2024, whatever. Um, and so if you look through those, a lot of the times he's showing like

00:32:07.880 different, uh, different stats that are coming out, Barnapoles and whatnot. And dude, if you look

00:32:13.640 at like, I think it's in 2022, the disruptive stats for 2022, if it goes all the way back to 2000

00:32:19.960 and you can find some stats that go back further than that.

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00:33:08.520 But like the median worship attendance among U.S. congregations has been in decline since

00:33:15.160 2000. In 2000, the average median attendance was 137. In 2005, it's 129. In 2008, it's 115. In 2010,

00:33:25.760 it's 105. In 2015, it's 80. In 2020, it's 65. It's dipping at a 45 degree angle and has been.

00:33:34.420 No one's talking about this.

00:33:37.460 Lately, within the past six months maybe or less than that, I mean, given what happened with Charlie

00:33:42.320 Kirk and everything, it does seem to be some sentiment that we're experiencing a resurgence

00:33:46.060 or people are Christ curious.

00:33:48.960 Man, this is like, I am so conflicted about it because Matt's always talking about worship or like

00:33:56.180 the 501c3 music system. And a great example, yesterday I came across a video of Charlie Kirk's

00:34:02.280 Memorial. Brandon Lake is singing this song called Gratitude on, and he's on it. But this is a

00:34:07.760 stadium. There's like, I don't know, 50,000 people there. And I'm looking at Brandon Lake, who is a

00:34:13.600 well-trained, polished performer, great singer, great music, all this stuff. But like, I know what

00:34:19.680 kind of goes into this. This is a performance. And I don't know how much of it is actually like

00:34:23.760 heartfelt worship from the guy. Very hard to tell. But what I can tell is when they zoom out and he

00:34:30.520 goes, hey, let's just let's just sing this chorus together. Let's just sing it together. But there's

00:34:35.340 50,000 people singing the chorus. And I'm like, those people aren't part of the act. They're they're

00:34:40.780 part of the show. They're at the show, but part of this act. And again, I don't want to like trash

00:34:45.920 that guy either, because maybe he's, you know, he's trying to do something. But there is a formula to

00:34:50.440 when you're doing this is a difficult task that he has to do. And there is a formula that works.

00:34:55.160 But when I'm looking at the reaction of the people, 50,000 people singing this chorus. Yeah.

00:34:59.420 In the stadium, like this is powerful. No, I don't know what to make of it.

00:35:03.900 Well, you could imagine that some percentage of those people just like the song, but there is a

00:35:07.420 percentage of those people that are focused on God in their hearts and minds in that moment.

00:35:11.880 And these words that are coming out of their mouth are aimed spiritually at the worship.

00:35:17.240 This is why we need to do this thing on. Well, I need to do this thing on

00:35:20.180 worship because this worship, when I'm watching it in the stadium, I'm like, if you can see the

00:35:24.600 worship, it's flying everywhere. If you saw it, like a lot of it's going to God. Some of it could

00:35:30.360 be going somewhere else. I don't want to be going to Brandon. What's his name? Some of it is just

00:35:33.800 learned religious culture. That's all it is, bro. But there's that too.

00:35:37.900 That that crowd has a certain percent of church goers that they know what to do when he says,

00:35:42.600 sing along with me, hear my heart church. And they're all just going to go along with it,

00:35:46.140 man. And it just ends up being a giant show. So 50,000 people singing, singing words.

00:35:51.480 Did he write the song? Yeah, he wrote that song. Well, what if 10% of them, meaning only five,

00:35:55.720 only 10%, 5,000 people are worshiping God, actually worshiping the Lord. It's powerful.

00:36:00.680 There's something powerful about it. Do you throw it all out? Because, because some part is

00:36:05.400 orchestrated because you just look to the word of God and say like, Hmm, do we see any examples of this in

00:36:10.180 scripture? Like a multitude of 50,000 people. Can I, can I read you guys some scripture really

00:36:18.580 quick? Not to like, just crap all over everything top just said, because I hear you. No, like I hear

00:36:25.000 you. And on some level, dude, I see that. And I like, I'm over here praying like, God, let that be

00:36:30.100 real. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But then at the same time, you have to deal with like passages like Amos

00:36:35.680 5, 21 through 23. It says, it's God, it's God talking to, well, speaking through Amos to the

00:36:45.360 Jewish people at the time, because they're not living lives holy to God, yet they're still showing 1.00

00:36:51.880 up in the, in the sanctuaries and doing all the religious stuff. And God says, I hate, I despise 0.97

00:36:59.020 your religious festivals. Your assemblies are a stench to me. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and 0.99

00:37:04.320 grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have

00:37:08.920 no regard for them away with the noise of your songs. I will not listen to the music of your

00:37:14.220 harps. He goes on and basically just says like, I would rather you like be, be just like, let justice

00:37:21.740 flow from you. Like, like stop cheating people in the markets. Like start, start living the way I've

00:37:27.900 told you to live. Right. But it's like all the religious stuff's there, but the heart's not there.

00:37:33.560 And so that can be there. That can be a thing too. And so we have to like, we have to ask,

00:37:38.700 like, are these people, are there hearts for God? And we can't know that, that that's why we have to,

00:37:45.060 that's why we have to have community where we are around these people and do know them at the deepest

00:37:51.060 level where I can look into your life and go, dude, I don't know that this lines up for you.

00:37:55.160 Like, I don't know that you're actually with this thing or encourage you in the ways you are.

00:38:00.320 Yeah. The crazy thing is that it's like, cause I've been part of, uh, these, uh, I don't know,

00:38:06.040 like a, a worship session, like a worship team. And I've been part of it in a point where I had my

00:38:11.340 both feet out, out of the door and didn't want anything to do with it. Um, and, and participating,

00:38:17.260 helping to create the condition in which we are inviting the Holy spirit. And guess what?

00:38:22.380 It was still there. Even though I was kind of like, like, I was like, I was, I was looking at

00:38:27.900 the exit and I was like, still, this thing is still here. Do you understand what, why I'm

00:38:33.140 conflicted? Cause I agree with what you said. A lot of it's garbage, but like, okay, then how do I

00:38:37.980 make, what do I make of the fact that the Holy spirit is still there even because maybe one person 0.98

00:38:44.240 called upon it and it's in that room. And I'm there saying like, screw this shirt. Like the way I was

00:38:52.040 way worse than Matt for years and years, which is why I'm actually soft on the softer on the church

00:38:56.800 now. So. Right. Um, and that, and that's why this is sort of like a twofold issue. And like,

00:39:03.300 it's like, we, we've got like the people that are making a mockery of this thing need held

00:39:08.600 accountable for it. And, and a lot of it is they've been taught poorly. Like, I mean, that's sad.

00:39:14.240 Sadly, that's what a lot of problems for a lot of people boil down to is you just don't know any

00:39:17.920 better. A lot of people do know better and they're in it for the wrong reasons. I run

00:39:22.020 into that. And then on the flip side, you've got honest people who love Jesus in the middle of it

00:39:29.420 that really do love this thing and are being fed by it and really are pursuing Jesus. And so that's

00:39:34.760 why, like, I, I hate talking about a lot of this stuff because I always feel like I'm crushing

00:39:38.420 somebody that doesn't need crushed because it is feeding them and they are growing. But in the same

00:39:45.460 time, it's like, but there may be a better way yet, you know, like, yeah, that's where it gets hard.

00:39:51.140 I think now is the moment for the better way. Like we were just talking about, so you're talking

00:39:55.580 about church statistics going down, but within the last three months or so, I feel like there

00:40:00.820 is a resurgence and you see, if you see what's going on politically and how that's being tied

00:40:05.500 up and mixed up with like, you know, Christian nationality with the passage of web and now 0.57

00:40:09.940 meeting with Nick Fuentes, I feel like that's a good signature, indicator of where it's headed,

00:40:15.140 but it's not there yet. And it's like, okay, we just watched, we watched something like it all

00:40:20.800 mixed up. We watched a guy die on stage and now we're watching people be confused about which way

00:40:27.500 to go. And they're, they look like they're choosing the church, but that's like a broad option. That's

00:40:31.180 not a narrow road. They're choosing church in general and they're headed towards this, but they're not

00:40:37.300 walking. In my opinion, they're not walking towards what we're doing, but at least they're not

00:40:42.300 walking towards twerking and Nicki Minaj. Now they're faced in. Well, they are now walking

00:40:46.580 towards Nicki Minaj because she's like, well, yeah, but this is a part of the confusion. Am I

00:40:50.780 making sense to you guys? Yeah, you are. You are. People are trying to better themselves. And I'll

00:40:55.840 say that. So you have, well, you have the church and as it, as it exists and there's the structures

00:41:00.440 and the foundations there. And I would think it, I think it would be stupid to tear this stuff down 0.94

00:41:05.140 to the ground. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's not it. You don't. It is at some point going to be 0.96

00:41:10.640 torn down. Jeremiah one, he sends Jeremiah. We could pull it up. I don't know. Do we have

00:41:14.560 blue letter Bible or anything or no, we don't talk to them. I'm sending you to tear this thing 0.95

00:41:19.080 down so that you can build back up and Jeremiah one, what probably like verse 10, somewhere right

00:41:24.980 in there, maybe eight, nine, 10, somewhere right in that section. I mean, I, I, I think what's coming

00:41:31.780 dude is like that system needs to be torn down. Like that system's been irrelevant. Not to say good

00:41:37.960 doesn't happen in it. Good happens in your car, driving down the road too. Jeremiah one

00:41:41.740 10. See, I have set, uh, I have set this day. I have this day set the over the nations, shut

00:41:47.300 up, man. And over the kingdoms to root out and pull down and to destroy and to throw down 0.97

00:41:52.160 and to build and to plant. See what it's for to build and to plant. You got to start new,

00:41:56.080 man. Yeah. I don't know. I see a similar thing happening. Maybe not. Yeah. But does that,

00:42:01.040 does this mean like, like the actual buildings that were there? Like, or, or no, no, no.

00:42:06.400 I'm not talking about like, uh, pitchforks and flames and burning built. No, no, no. I'm

00:42:11.100 not saying that. I'm just saying that system at some point has to go away and real preachers

00:42:15.140 have to be raised up who know the Lord, who preached the word of God, that system. I don't

00:42:20.000 know if we've talked about it yet. It just, it breeds hypocrisy. This concept that you're 0.88

00:42:23.880 going to go to this thing one day a week and you're going to act different than you act the

00:42:27.460 other day. Right. Say whatever you want, dude. I would say, no, that's not a neutral system.

00:42:31.880 That's a bad system. And it's not built on the word of God. Like the scripture is very

00:42:36.000 plain that the church is built on apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers,

00:42:40.860 Jesus Christ being the head cornerstone. Like that, like that's what all of this is built

00:42:44.800 on. We've built a completely, I don't know if I want to say antichrist system, but I'm

00:42:50.020 not against saying an antichrist system. Cause it's another Christ, like antichrist, you

00:42:54.420 know, doesn't necessarily mean horns and pitchfork, but it means another Christ. Like

00:42:58.120 we built this other Christ system. And so, um, I don't know. I just think slowly, but

00:43:03.780 surely real ones are going to keep coming out of that system. And, um, some people I

00:43:09.500 would, I like to bash on you and say mean things, but I'm being serious. Like I respect

00:43:12.620 that you do want to stay in that and help it. I get it. I don't, I'm not knocking you

00:43:16.720 for that. I'm not going to help you. Yes, you are. What are you there for? That's what

00:43:22.100 you're always saying you're there for is to help that system, not that system to help

00:43:25.880 what we're doing there. Okay. That's, that's all I'm saying. Yeah. You're there

00:43:28.980 to help. Can we, can we shift it a little bit and come back to this? No. Cause I

00:43:34.060 think, yeah, yeah. We're a great commission. I'll go, I'll go. Um, the, um, so like, I

00:43:42.020 think talking about how we got here can kind of help see like what has been added

00:43:47.220 onto it, which I think makes it easier to talk about what's wrong with it. Is that

00:43:53.140 fair? Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like, okay. If you go back to like what Jesus was doing,

00:43:58.020 like when you guys look at just like the words of Jesus, the system Jesus set up, like, I'm

00:44:03.880 curious to like, what, what do you guys see? Like, what, what do you think Jesus set up

00:44:07.840 like as his original church? What, like, if you just had to summarize it briefly, I mean,

00:44:12.920 it looks like he was telling people let's meet up one day a week and we'll do announcements,

00:44:17.600 five songs, and then I'll give a speech. So what do you actually think that Jesus was saying?

00:44:24.480 Planet Fitness has everything you need anytime the motivation hits. So you can give everything

00:44:29.920 you've got. With most clubs open 24 hours, you've got access to our best in class equipment to tackle

00:44:35.320 early morning reps, late night miles, and every workout in between. Join the club today and save

00:44:40.840 $28 or more when you join for just $1 down, $15 a month. Planet Fitness. We're all strong on this

00:44:46.600 planet. Deal extended through January 16th, $49 annual fee applies. See club for details.

00:44:53.560 Planet Fitness has everything you need anytime the motivation hits. Join the club today and save

00:44:57.940 $28 or more when you join for just $1 down, $15 a month. Cancel anytime. Deal extended through January

00:45:04.100 16th, $49 annual fee applies. See club for details. I mean, for me, it looks like he was ministering,

00:45:12.420 like with his life. Like he was going around living in this way. And the people that he came

00:45:19.380 into direct contact with were directly affected by his life, the way he lived, the things he said to

00:45:25.900 them, the things that he did with them. Like this was just a dude that lived constantly in this way.

00:45:31.260 It wasn't like, let's go to this special place and live this way. Or like, you know, it was,

00:45:37.440 it was his life. That's, that's what it was. And like, is it fair to say though, that like the

00:45:42.280 disciples were intrinsically connected to all that, like, like that they were being like brought along

00:45:47.020 for all that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like, um, can we, can we pull up the great commission? Um,

00:45:53.840 Matthew 28, 16 through 22. It's actually interesting that we're talking about this today,

00:45:59.180 because this is something that keeps coming up over and over again, not only in episodes,

00:46:03.920 but just like in my, it's funny. Cause every once in a while, you know, I'm new in this walk,

00:46:08.960 I'll learn something new. And then it just, I don't know if it's me just repeating the shit on 0.99

00:46:14.240 every episode or if it also happens to be, you do a lot of that. I do a lot of that. I do a fair bit. 0.99

00:46:18.840 I was going to say that I think the church should look like, and not to, I just really want to say

00:46:23.660 it around Max. He's disgusting. Go ahead. Say it, say it loud. Look at him in the eyes. 0.98

00:46:27.080 It should be like Bible studies done on your big white pretentious couch.

00:46:31.240 Oh yeah. It should be. I think your couch is pretentious. Yeah. A little bit pretentious,

00:46:38.920 but honestly, you guys have built for Bible study. You guys have the same couch. Why we have a big

00:46:42.640 couch. You guys literally own the same sofa. Sorry. Hold on. That's a strange shock to hear that.

00:46:47.680 Okay. There you go. Matthew 28, 16. Can you read that? Yeah. What are, what are we in right now?

00:46:53.360 Is it in KJV? Do you guys mind if I go like in Ivy or something just like, cause it's more modern English.

00:46:59.840 I'm sorry, Matt. I know you love your KJV. He loves it so much. Um, I'm all about any

00:47:06.600 translation that works, man. Okay. So the great commission, right? It's, um, then the 11 disciples.

00:47:15.060 What's that? No, Matt's just interrupting. Please. Oh, no, you're good. You're good. Uh,

00:47:19.980 says then the 11 disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

00:47:24.720 Then they saw him, they worshiped him, but some of them doubted. If you break that down to the

00:47:30.260 truest Greek, it's actually closer to, and they doubted it. There there's, you don't see the whole

00:47:35.660 sum of them. Actually, you can pull that up right now. If you need to, um, if you can break that down.

00:47:42.160 If you pull up worship, it actually says, um, a three piece band came out and started playing.

00:47:48.680 Stop it. Don't worry about that. Because worship is music. A three piece band, man. You have a

00:47:52.540 lame church. We got a 17 piece band at our church. So, so if you see it's these and these doubted. 0.99

00:47:58.780 Right. So they doubted, right? Like, so, I mean, like doubt is broader than we, we actually soften

00:48:03.480 that in the English. Right. So it's, and they doubted, uh, Jesus came and told his disciples,

00:48:09.260 I've been given all authority in heaven and on earth. So this is like him speaking from like a

00:48:14.380 kingly decree. Right. And he says, therefore go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing

00:48:19.700 them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all

00:48:24.280 the commands I've given you and be sure of this. I'm with you always, even to the end of the age.

00:48:29.460 The thing I don't hear talked about enough on this, um, actually maybe before I say this, I'll ask

00:48:36.300 like who, who is this commission to in your opinion? Well, I mean, in that moment, it seems to be

00:48:44.260 to the disciples, but in general, it's those who are disciples, those who are following

00:48:49.400 Christ. How did you land on that? I'm curious. I agree. I have to go back and look at the

00:48:54.140 context. Um, I immediately forgot everything. Well, I'm, I'm just like, that's awesome that

00:48:58.820 you came to that because you're exactly right. But well, to the end of the age, what are you

00:49:04.020 like? So it's then the 11 disciples went to Galilee with him and he's talking to them,

00:49:08.720 but at the very end, at the end, he says to the very end of the age that I am with you

00:49:13.680 always, even to the end of the age. Yeah. He's not just talking about his death or their

00:49:19.620 martyrdom. He's talking about an age. So what age, uh, I think it's like until his return

00:49:25.340 kind of deal, because then he will be with us in person, right? Like it's like, this is

00:49:31.040 a little bit of an, not it's, it's on topic, but not quite the point you're getting at, but

00:49:35.520 it's something I've been curious about. Does it, is he saying go forth, make disciples of

00:49:41.520 men until my return? Uh, I see what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because which

00:49:48.520 return? Well, you know, just cause the little season thing keeps coming up constantly and

00:49:52.500 it's like, I've been wondering, it's like, um, if, if you believe that we're in the little

00:49:59.180 season, which like, I'm not even pushing back against you. Fine. Whatever. My question then

00:50:03.540 immediately becomes like, well, what is our job as servants of the Lord? What are we called

00:50:07.700 to do during the little season? We're meant to make disciples of men seemingly until the

00:50:12.760 return of Christ. But if Christ has returned and the millennial reign has happened and we're

00:50:16.480 now in some short season where Satan is loosed, what are we called to do? Cause it's like my,

00:50:22.980 my concern really only ever is like, what's my job? Well, let me ask this. Are, are, are people

00:50:27.920 still coming to Christ in this world today? Yeah. How do people come to Christ? Uh, through

00:50:33.960 hearing the gospel. So I would say our job is exactly the same today because we are the, we are

00:50:39.440 the hands and feet of Christ. We are the method through which he has chosen. Like he could do it

00:50:43.980 all himself if he wants to, but that's not the way God has chosen to work in the physical creation.

00:50:49.000 He's chosen to do it through his ambassadors, his people, right? Like we are the method. Um,

00:50:54.000 and so I would say like, look, whether you're a little season or not, I'm not, um, it's still,

00:51:00.420 it's the same deal. Like your job. I do the same thing with Arminian Calvinist arguments of the,

00:51:06.940 like, is it all predestined or is it free will? And it's like, Hey, what's your job? Same job,

00:51:12.620 dude. What's it changed? Like your job is to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in

00:51:18.820 the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit. And here's the kicker, teaching them to

00:51:22.480 obey all that Jesus has commanded you, which means everything gets re like, uh, recycled into the next

00:51:30.340 person. So this command to the disciples is a command to every single disciple that they then

00:51:36.340 raise up. The unbroken chain is what you're referring to. And this was supposed to be an

00:51:40.240 unbroken chain that just went from that day to now. Yeah. In some ways it is. And in some ways

00:51:46.880 we have to get back to it. The chain did get broken in a lot of ways. Something else that's

00:51:51.420 interesting too, is baptizing people. Are we called to, are we, should we be baptizing people?

00:51:56.420 I would argue that if, if you are then to teach every disciple that you make to obey all Christ

00:52:04.860 has commanded, like, if you trace this all the way back, all of these things he's saying to the

00:52:09.500 first people he said it to, because they are then supposed to teach the next person to obey all

00:52:15.240 those same things, all these land on you and me. And so my point here is like, baptism, it's not just

00:52:22.160 for pastors. Discipleship is not just for pastors. Like every single one of us as a believer is a

00:52:29.560 royal priest in Christ's kingdom. And we are to be carrying this out. But that's another flaw in

00:52:36.100 that system. That system creates this mindset that it's just for the pastors to do. Doug,

00:52:41.060 so that's what I'm saying. That system is neutral, man. The system is... No, I don't disagree. I don't

00:52:46.020 disagree at all. Which is why it's super hard for me to be in it right now. Because I feel like I'm

00:52:49.780 trying to turn a really big ship. But you're probably the man of God that, like, came up,

00:52:54.220 knew you loved the Lord, knew you were called to the work of the kingdom of God, and there wasn't,

00:52:57.640 like, that was your option. Like, that's what you do, right? Well, it wasn't even that, dude. I was

00:53:01.840 in the system before I even learned all this. Like, I... This became revelatory to me, like,

00:53:08.720 after all that. I got in the system, dude. Like, I... I came out of high school. I went to college.

00:53:14.960 I slept around. I drank. I did the usual, like, I fell away and I came back thing, right? But,

00:53:20.700 like, I didn't get out. I go start a band. I tour around. I try and do that thing. That all blows

00:53:27.080 up. I have this come to Jesus moment, and then my thing... Rock band. My whole thing is, like,

00:53:35.880 I tried to get back to, like... I... It was actually what my NDS Chronicles was about,

00:53:42.820 but it's okay. You guys don't remember. But, like... But... I'm sorry. No, it's not. I'm just

00:53:49.100 messing with you. I do kind of remember this. But... But basically, God gives me this dream. It

00:53:54.720 freaks me out. That sends me basically back to just reading scripture, and then, like, a year later,

00:54:02.320 through scripture, it explains my dream, and I realized all I was being called to the entire time

00:54:07.580 was to come out of my sin and to go tell people about Jesus. And that was it. It wasn't anything

00:54:12.840 weird. It was just, like, really weird circumstances to get me to a very basic biblical thing. So I go,

00:54:20.200 and the best I could understand is, well, I'm supposed to tell people about Jesus. The best way

00:54:23.900 to do that is to be a pastor. So I go become a pastor. But then it's like, wait, everybody's

00:54:29.820 supposed to be doing this. Like, everybody is supposed... So now... Do the thing. That's my

00:54:38.640 whole goal, you know? So... Oh, you guys look very concerned. What just happened in the chat?

00:54:44.880 Number one. Top touched your volume on your mic, and as soon as that happened,

00:54:50.280 your mic cut out for a second, and then Matt had a visual, visceral reaction to that. He had

00:54:55.460 to actually turn his body away from the television and from the cameras. I saw that. That was bizarre,

00:55:00.720 Matt. These guys are not professionals. You're good. You're good. What I wanted to say is,

00:55:05.020 I guess that means we're going to be doing baptisms at Bohemian Grove. Yeah, we're installing a pool

00:55:09.900 right there in the back. No, I think we just get a container, fill it with coffee. Coffee is mostly water.

00:55:14.780 Yeah. So I think we can actually do that. But I've been thinking about this Great Commission thing

00:55:20.280 quite a bit lately. I was having a conversation with my wife, and what ended up coming up was this idea

00:55:28.940 of, like, just because I do this thing on camera doesn't mean that I'm...

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00:55:46.560 early morning reps, late night miles, and every workout in between. Join the club today and save

00:55:52.080 $28 or more when you join for just $1 down, $15 a month. Planet Fitness. We're all strong on this

00:55:57.840 planet. Deal extended through January 16th. $49 annual fee applies. See club for details. Planet Fitness

00:56:05.280 has everything you need, anytime the motivation hits. Join the club today and save $28 or more when

00:56:10.420 you join for just $1 down, $15 a month. Cancel anytime. Deal extended through January 16th,

00:56:16.180 $49 annual fee applies. See club for details. In that I was called because we're all called,

00:56:23.740 right? We're all called to come out of our sin, like you said, and then accept Jesus Christ as

00:56:31.480 your Lord and Savior, and then engage in this Great Commission, which answers a lot of questions for a

00:56:37.120 lot of people who say things like, what am I meant to do here? God, you know, what's my purpose? It's

00:56:41.560 like, your purpose is the Great Commission. To live the life Christ lived. I mean, that's it,

00:56:46.920 right? And then go forth and make disciples, go forth, sin no more, make disciples of men.

00:56:50.780 So it's like, this isn't special to me. This is special to all of us. We all have this thing,

00:56:57.100 and you don't need to be some expert in scripture, or you don't need to be some podcaster with lights

00:57:05.500 and cameras, or you don't need to be a pastor with a stage and all these things. You've been given

00:57:10.960 something. You just got to own a coffee shop. You got to own a coffee shop. You have to be a wizard

00:57:14.280 with the brown water, but you have a testimony. You've been given a testimony. You've been given

00:57:20.120 a story to share with other people. And the thing is, it's like, you know, sometimes you go off and you

00:57:25.280 start reading scripture and to some people that's loaded. And maybe you don't know exactly what you're

00:57:30.120 talking about because you're new. I'm talking a lot about myself. It's like, I don't know a lot of

00:57:33.280 this. I'm still new in my walk. What I know is what I went through and what I experienced,

00:57:38.580 who I was before and who I am now. And that's super relatable because we're all sinners and we're

00:57:43.700 all lost until we answer this call. So you have this thing that's actually really potent. It's

00:57:49.520 really simple, right? You get baptized. You accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And then just start

00:57:58.640 by sharing your story and having a genuine, not just curiosity, but like a genuine desire

00:58:05.040 to draw closer to God. So if you're doing that thing, if you're sharing your story,

00:58:10.320 this is what happened to me. I was this shitty person before, which who wasn't, right? And this

00:58:16.440 is a thing that happened. This is what I realized. This is what I was doing. This is why it's wrong.

00:58:20.840 And this is how my life has changed. And this is where I'm at now. That, even if it resonates with

00:58:26.480 one person, what you've now done is you've shown somebody that there's salvation for them,

00:58:34.360 that there's eternity with God for them. Where it's like before, like, I don't give a, what are

00:58:39.960 you, what are you going to do? Even if you, your biggest accomplishment in helping somebody was like,

00:58:43.660 I gave somebody $20,000 once I had enough money in my pocket. And I said, you know what? This guy's

00:58:48.100 hurting. Let me give him $20,000. That's great, dude. That's awesome. Somebody found eternal salvation

00:58:54.180 because you shared some words in a sequence that resonated with them. That's it. It's the, it's,

00:59:00.780 it's really simple. And it's kind of, um, I don't know, profound in its simplicity. You know what I

00:59:08.920 mean? It's like, what are you called to do? Make disciples of men. How? Talk about what you went

00:59:14.960 through. That's it for now. So, um, I teach, I teach a course. Uh, I don't, I don't want to call

00:59:23.580 it. It was really good, man. It was very legit. So like, I teach a training on, on disciple making,

00:59:30.220 uh, and, and we're really careful. Like we, I, I, I like to say disciple maker. Um, that's kind of a

00:59:36.760 term in a circle of people I run with that we try and land on because the whole, like making disciples

00:59:42.940 part has kind of been removed from discipleship. And so we say disciple maker, because then you

00:59:47.380 can't get it twisted. Like that is part of what it means to be a disciple is making other disciples.

00:59:51.800 So we teach people how to make disciples and it's just the Bible. We just talk through the Bible and

00:59:56.680 just talk about like, who are you in Christ? Like, what is salvation? Like, you know, to try and give

01:00:01.980 you the basics so you can now keep replicating that. But one of the things we always try to hammer home

01:00:08.000 is look, one thing nobody can take from you is your story. It's anecdotal evidence. That means

01:00:14.780 they can't disprove it. They can't tell you it didn't happen because it happened to you.

01:00:19.720 And that's enough for a lot of people. And it's a perfect place to start is with your story. So you

01:00:26.140 don't have to be an expert. Anybody can share the gospel. Anybody can plant seeds of the gospel.

01:00:31.780 And that's like the language I love to use. That's biblical language of like, it's a seed being

01:00:36.420 planted. It's a seed being watered. And the beauty of that is like, um, in Mark, it talks about like

01:00:43.060 a man plants a seed and then he goes to bed and whether he wakes up and does anything with it or

01:00:47.880 whatever, like God is the one that causes that seed to grow. Paul says, you know, like I planted a

01:00:52.640 seed, so-and-so watered it. God brought it to life, right? He made it actually grow. And so it's like,

01:00:59.260 we are part of the process. We do what we can, but God's going to do the rest. And it doesn't matter

01:01:05.460 how bad you mess it up. If you're honestly trying to do what's right and you're stepping out in faith

01:01:10.940 and trying to use the word of God to the best of your ability through the use of like, like tapping

01:01:16.080 into the Holy Spirit, like letting the Holy Spirit speak through you, like God's going to use that.

01:01:22.020 God is going to use that for his glory. And so it's like, you don't have to worry and you don't

01:01:26.420 have to be a pastor. We're in this model right now where the whole deal is come and see, let me bring

01:01:32.160 you here so my pastor can teach you about Jesus. It's like, no, no, no, no. It should be a sending

01:01:36.840 model. It should be, you are being trained at church to then go out and be in the world and

01:01:42.300 tell people about Jesus and live a life honoring to God. That's the idea. Let me tell you something

01:01:47.360 though, real quick, man. There's a lot of people that shouldn't. I'm just being, I'm just going to

01:01:52.440 be real with you and kick against what you're saying. There's a lot of people that shouldn't.

01:01:56.560 There's a lot of people that tried name them for years. He's getting nasty. It's getting

01:02:01.140 nasty. Here it comes. It's your family member. It's, it's the person that should not, but

01:02:06.420 they're, they're pushing it on you and you push it away and you want nothing to do with

01:02:10.600 it. Oh, I see what you're saying. They're not living a Christ-like life, but they're pushing

01:02:14.280 like the Bible on you. Maybe, maybe then that comes from the fruits of where they're, where

01:02:18.240 they're being watered. You know what I'm saying? And that's part of the discipleship issue

01:02:23.540 is those people were probably never discipled and probably aren't currently discipled or

01:02:27.600 they'd be getting better at it. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? Like

01:02:31.360 that's, that's why this issue is so important. Like most pastors don't have anybody discipling

01:02:37.260 them right now. I'm in a shared leadership model. There's not one pastor that's in charge

01:02:41.780 of my church. Like there's four of us. We're really more of like elders, right? And like we,

01:02:47.120 we shepherd each other. We lean on each other. We let each other know what we're going

01:02:51.100 through. Most pastors don't have that, dude. Most people don't have that. And it's like,

01:02:56.320 it's crucial to growth. I don't disagree with you that there are people that their confession

01:03:01.640 is damaging, but it's not usually because the gospel is being like, that the gospel isn't

01:03:08.960 doing what the gospel does. It's because their life doesn't line up with it and they aren't

01:03:14.060 landing with you. It's not the gospel. It's them. You know what I'm saying?

01:03:17.940 Yeah. It's, um, I mean, you know, that's why we're called to live a life that models,

01:03:24.000 you know what I mean? It's like, go forth and sin no more. The, the fruits of your life

01:03:27.760 should be the thing that people can look at. And I mean, that's, I guess that's a tough

01:03:32.240 walk for everybody though. I mean, I was, but we're now we're talking about something

01:03:35.900 at scale. I think this is, yeah, go ahead, Matt.

01:03:39.360 No, I was just going to say that's exactly what the issue is though. I think maybe this is

01:03:43.600 what you're getting at is that this is a thing we're doing at scale. Whereas discipleship

01:03:47.560 doesn't happen like that, bro. Like I have people sometimes tell me they're going to do

01:03:51.580 a discipleship group in the back and they're looking to get like, you know, 50 people or

01:03:57.320 whatever. And I'm just like, bro, you're not going to like, people ask me if I've ever

01:04:01.400 discipled anybody. I can think of one guy specifically. I met with him every Tuesday for like a year

01:04:07.260 and a half. And he read the scripture for that entire week. And then we'd meet up on Tuesday

01:04:11.760 and talk about what he read. And we do that every week. It went on for a year and a half.

01:04:15.700 We almost went through the entire Bible just doing that, but it's painstaking and it's one

01:04:20.440 on one. And there's no glory for that. There's no, like, you can't do that and get paid at

01:04:25.140 a 501c3 system for one person for a year and a half. But at the core of that word, disciple

01:04:31.500 is discipline. And people don't want that. People don't want to live a disciplined lifestyle.

01:04:36.880 And there's like a huge difference between teaching and discipleship, right? Like they are

01:04:40.540 not one in the same. Like when I'm still like, I'm in a church of 150, 200 people. I maybe have

01:04:47.400 two people I'm discipling, maybe three. Yeah. That other 150, 200 people are not being discipled

01:04:53.780 by me. They're being taught by me. Jesus had 12. Like we think we're just going to disciple.

01:04:58.600 And he's, he's God, right? He's, he's God. And he's got 12. I am fallen man. I can maybe

01:05:05.360 handle three to five. You know what I'm saying? Like we, we, we're discipleship intrinsically

01:05:12.920 needs the ability to bounce questions back. Like it's, it's conversational. It's like, look

01:05:19.840 and see it's, it's kind of that whole, like, you know, I do, then I, uh, what is it? You

01:05:25.140 do, I watch, uh, have you ever looked through that kind of deal of like how to teach somebody

01:05:29.840 something like first you watch me and you get to ask questions, then like you do it and

01:05:34.900 I help. Then eventually it's like, then just you do it. You know, it's sort of this, like

01:05:40.320 come along with me and let, let us do this thing together. That's how you're going to grow.

01:05:45.180 So, um, that's discipleship. It's not sitting in church for an hour on Sunday morning, which

01:05:50.980 is why I also don't know that this is like strictly a 501c3 thing so much as like small,

01:05:58.840 what happens in small group versus what happens on a Sunday morning. Like Sunday morning is

01:06:03.840 not meant to encapsulate the whole thing. It's supposed to be, yeah, we gather together

01:06:08.540 in big groups to love Jesus together. And we gather in really small community based, like

01:06:14.080 relational groups to honor God together. And I would say that part is like 90% of the

01:06:20.080 equation. Yeah. Yeah. Yet it's the part missing for most churches.

01:06:23.780 I find it like supplementary, right? It's like, I don't think you need a church to draw closer

01:06:30.500 to God, but if you're serious about drawing closer to God, it can be supplementary. It'd

01:06:34.940 be massively helpful. I mean, there's been times where I've been there and the sermon is

01:06:38.000 like, damn dude, Holy spirit is a hundred percent communicating with, I'm sure plenty of people 0.98

01:06:43.100 in this congregation specifically on this topic, but me directly, like I can feel this thing 0.99

01:06:48.420 is something I've been, you know, it was on my spirit for the last 48 hours. And all of

01:06:52.640 a sudden we're, we're addressing it specifically here. You know, it's happened a multitude of

01:06:56.900 times. Top was saying something about scaling up and that's an interesting thing to say,

01:07:02.860 because when I was talking about the whole mass hypnosis kind of techniques, um, I had a bit of a

01:07:10.440 nihilistic thought that crept in where more of an observation. I said, if this was a hypnosis,

01:07:18.540 what then would it be for? And I've settled on this idea that it could be beneficial for the

01:07:24.780 psychology of a person to be in a certain headspace when getting ready to receive the word of God.

01:07:29.180 I also did take note that the very next thing that happened after the music and hypnotism

01:07:35.020 segment segment was tithing. And I said, that is a little shock, uncomfortable of a thought.

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01:08:27.980 Oh yeah. With the, with the tithing, I do recognize though, that if we're called to preach the gospel

01:08:34.600 to all the corners of the earth until finally everybody has heard, you know, the good news

01:08:41.160 of Jesus Christ. Well, it would be a lofty thing to go to X, Y, and Z. And I, and I think that the

01:08:49.200 people that are going and raising churches in Mexico or they're raising churches in Norway or

01:08:56.000 they're doing whatever it is that they're doing, this requires some sort of funds. And so, um,

01:09:02.800 which, which is biblical. Like, I mean, it's not wrong to be paid for the work you do. Right. But

01:09:07.880 at the same time, it's like, where's that line get drawn? Yes. Yeah. So, so I mean, I'm caught up in

01:09:13.520 this place where I'm like, I happen to notice a thing and it's that we've primed everybody

01:09:17.660 psychologically to then, um, be in the most vulnerable place you could be, you know, if

01:09:24.100 you are truly being subjected to hypnotism and then we're immediately asking them to tithe

01:09:28.240 afterwards. Um, and that's, you know, an uncomfortable topic, but then I look over and

01:09:34.860 I go, well, it does cost money. Logistically speaking, to send anybody anywhere to spread the

01:09:40.360 gospel, erect a church, you know, how are these people going to live and eat and all this stuff?

01:09:45.200 People are going to wild places with their family. They're taking their family unit, they're uprooting

01:09:50.540 them and they're going to a place where people don't even speak the same language and they're

01:09:54.120 trying to build a church and they're spreading the word of God. And I didn't think, you know, within

01:09:58.900 that, within missions, there are definitely people that are on fire for the Lord that are trying to do

01:10:05.520 this great commission, but we do recoil at this concept of, of tithing. And I, I have to admit

01:10:13.540 within that context of the hypnosis aspect, it's very uncomfortable. Well, to be totally real with

01:10:18.720 you, like the tithe is not in the new Testament. The tithe is an old Testament temple thing. It's,

01:10:24.120 there's no mention of a tithe in the new Testament or the way the church operates going out of the new

01:10:29.500 Testament. What we are commanded to do is, is to be generous, right? Like we're, we're like, and so

01:10:35.160 my argument is always like, Hey, if you're going to this thing that we call church week after week,

01:10:39.920 and you want to come here and you want to sing the fancy songs and you want there to be like,

01:10:44.420 you know, we can dim the lights or whatever, and we can have blue softer lights that come up maybe

01:10:48.460 every once in a while. Okay. You want to be, you want some projector screens that have light bulbs

01:10:52.460 that cost a lot. And this is a big building because there's a lot of you and we need electricity.

01:10:56.180 If you choose that, that is the way you want to do church and you want it to be in this particular

01:11:00.780 way, it would be kind of crappy. If you didn't help us keep it going. I kind of, that's kind of

01:11:06.420 my argument for it. It's not, you need to give 10% of your income. It's not that that's nowhere

01:11:12.260 biblical. It's just more like, if you want this, help us continue doing this. If not, I'm more than 0.88

01:11:17.740 happy to meet in a park next week. You know what I'm saying? Like is why I'm like, I'm skeptical about

01:11:22.900 giving tide. I don't really give tide, but I help if I have a specific set of talents,

01:11:29.500 if I can help you with sound room or AV production, this is what I do. Then I, then I said, yeah,

01:11:34.300 I can help you do that. Cause I see what you're doing here. And in some form or fashion,

01:11:37.940 this is not reaching, I mean, it's not reaching the people in the way that, you know, Matt would

01:11:43.880 like to see it done or, but it is doing something. You know, I look at my father, you can make the

01:11:48.880 all the faces you want. I look at my father who is a product of this sort of system. And he's one

01:11:54.600 of the best people that I know. And because he was in it and because he took the lessons of it.

01:11:59.120 So I'm like, okay, I could call these people assholes. I can call them thieves, liars, losers, 1.00

01:12:04.480 which a lot of them are. And I've, I've, I've been kicked out of church for doing it from, 0.98

01:12:08.700 from the pulpit, from on the stage, calling the pastor, a liar, a thief, a faggot. Okay. 1.00

01:12:14.620 Yes. Oh yeah. We could, we can go down that route, but the reality is that all that could

01:12:20.120 be true, but there is also another set of truths that people are reached by this thing. And I don't

01:12:24.960 know what to make of it. Like it exists now. And if it doesn't get the things, the lights go off.

01:12:30.000 Yeah. I just don't, I don't know, but it does exist. And this is a, we, we have a tool here that

01:12:35.020 we use to do something similar. If we weren't getting paid from this show, this wouldn't be a

01:12:39.540 thing. We wouldn't have all these lights in this fog machine and these laser shows that that's true too.

01:12:43.800 So like, I, like I'm a Protestant, right? Like I'm not Catholic. Um, if you go back to like the 0.59

01:12:50.120 teachings of like Luther coming out of the, the Roman Catholic church, like Martin Luther looks

01:12:55.840 at the church and he recognizes that even though he disagrees with the system, that the spirit of

01:13:01.260 God is still at work in it and that there are those who are real in it. And it's like, that's sort

01:13:06.960 of like that remnant concept. Like even when Jerusalem is totally against God in the old Testament

01:13:11.960 points, like there's still always this remnant of true Christ followers, even in the mess. Right. 0.75

01:13:18.320 And so like, I, I don't think anybody's got a perfect theology. There was one guy with a perfect

01:13:24.640 theology and that's Jesus, right? Like the rest of us are just trying to make this thing the best we can.

01:13:31.760 Um, so I don't want to totally just hate on it. I'm, I'm with you top. Like, but at the same time,

01:13:36.120 like there are parts of it where it's like, why are we doing that? And it's like, you're not allowed

01:13:41.440 to ask some of those questions and that's not real cool either. You know, I've seen people recently,

01:13:46.400 I am allowed to ask those questions. No, he's saying like, right. As a standard, like as a,

01:13:51.820 as a regular church goer, as somebody that goes to a church and is, you want to have, uh, the status

01:13:57.780 of the person that you want to be a coveted member. I don't really give a shit about all that. Like we, 0.98

01:14:02.060 I was, I was there running the sound room and I went to talk to the guitar player and he's like,

01:14:06.020 yeah, I got gas, you know, gear requirement syndrome. I said, good thing you don't have

01:14:09.220 diarrhea, nigga. And he looked at me and he goes, we can't say that. And I go, well, I just did. 0.99

01:14:14.280 I don't care what you think about it. I just, I understand what this thing is. And I'm like,

01:14:18.500 can we move the ball on this thing just a little bit more? You can kick me out, whatever. This

01:14:22.920 doesn't matter to me. I'm not going to do what you tell me here. If it's not biblical, I mean,

01:14:27.720 you know, obviously like we have to think about it. I'm not just going to follow your rules.

01:14:30.800 But that's, but that's how you should be like, like you should be ready to question what isn't

01:14:36.560 biblical. You should be ready to ask those questions. It's just, there is this culture

01:14:42.440 we've developed where it's like, but that's a no, no. And a lot of people never make it beyond

01:14:48.240 that culture of like, I just do what my parents did and I don't ask why. And it's like, we have to

01:14:55.120 ask why given you're actually seeking truth. If you're just looking to like, hear what your

01:15:01.620 own itching ears want to hear, then you're going to end up a heretic. But point being like, 0.80

01:15:06.440 if you're actually pursuing truth, you're going to end up at truth. Keep pursuing truth. Right.

01:15:12.080 Yeah. I mean, it's a, I don't know. It's, it's a strange thing to be in from, from my perspective,

01:15:19.480 having not been raised in it, because I don't have any of that go along because this is what

01:15:24.140 I was raised in. This is what my parents did. I didn't have, I chose to go as a, as a 35 year

01:15:28.540 old man, you notice the pressure of it, the whole turn to your part, turn to the person next to you

01:15:33.060 and say this, that's kind of what that is, dude. I was getting kind of upset. Uh, there's a guy at

01:15:38.360 the back of the church. Who's just screaming like randomly, just Jesus Christ, just screaming as loud

01:15:45.100 as he can. And I'm like, Whoa, what is going on? And then it's like the, the tongues thing comes

01:15:49.040 around and he's just screaming in English. He's just screaming in English. Like he's not, and I'm

01:15:54.180 not, I'm not saying it makes it better if you do, uh, you know, some shit I ain't never heard before, 0.97

01:15:59.180 but he's just screaming words in English. Like I stand at the door and all you need is open it. 0.96

01:16:05.860 And I'm like, why, what? Like, are you, you're not Jesus, sir. Why are you doing this? And it,

01:16:11.060 the whole thing is just really weird. And then my son comes over and he's like, yo,

01:16:14.160 worship is, worship is weird. That's what I'm saying. It's like, once there's something

01:16:18.020 I feel like, and I might be wrong, but I feel like when you invite, when you invite something

01:16:25.040 into the room and it's there, I feel like people can take, you can take that. There's an energy

01:16:30.680 there. I don't know, but people can take it and twist it. Well, there was weird stuff, man. I don't

01:16:35.820 know. There was a little, uh, Consuela, a little, you know, Hispanic woman who's doing tongues this 1.00

01:16:41.780 time. I had never seen it before. And this time it rubbed my wife the wrong way. And I think the

01:16:47.100 reason is because like, you know, she's Peruvian. So she has like, that's not the same lady that's 1.00

01:16:51.080 making stuff up. Well, she's a different lady. No, no, she's, she's like, um, yeah, it wasn't

01:16:54.500 the fedora lady. She goes, um, I think it's because she has like all these Spanish elder female 1.00

01:16:59.840 relatives. And she was able to, now there's a cultural connect. She came away being like faking the 0.99

01:17:06.400 funk. And I didn't like the way that felt. It felt weird. It felt like you were faking the

01:17:09.860 funk. And so she really didn't like that lady. And like, we just all came away from this time. 1.00

01:17:14.440 Even my son, like I said, was like, I don't like when they make me go. And it's like, what are the

01:17:19.620 fruits of this? Am I going and feeling a connection with God or am I going and being, well, that's the

01:17:26.760 question. Exhausted by strange things. What is the fruits of this? If this system created mature

01:17:33.200 disciples, I'd shut my mouth. I promise. So my mouth, but it doesn't produce mature disciples. It

01:17:38.680 produces people who want to go and be entertained. If we can just cut the BS.

01:17:42.500 And dude, it feels like it's entertainment. When I was there, I did look around and I was

01:17:45.780 like, oh, this is a free concert. I don't disagree. Can I ask, can I ask what you mean

01:17:52.320 when you say this system specifically? Like, like, cause like in the midst of it, like we're

01:17:58.100 kind of recognizing, like there are real ones in the midst of like this whole mess. So like

01:18:02.360 what, what particularly Matt, are you referring to? Like as the system?

01:18:06.680 The 501c3 system would be that. So like the church, the church bought into like the whole,

01:18:11.180 like, this is a business now thing. Well, no, no. I just call it that. Cause I used to call

01:18:14.840 it the denominational church. And then I had people say, oh, well, our church is non-denominational.

01:18:18.640 So I was like, okay, what do I call it then? They, what do they all have in common? 501c3.

01:18:22.580 They all have that in common. But what's the elements of it? Five songs. And then,

01:18:26.720 well, that's the service. But I think Zach alluded to this earlier. And this is what it comes

01:18:30.440 back to with the tongues is that like, you have to fit all of your theology into a one hour show

01:18:34.980 on Sunday. So like, do I believe in tongues? Yeah. But do I believe that the Holy Spirit's

01:18:38.840 just showing up, talking to that person at 1024 on every Sunday? Like, no, like we're trying to fit

01:18:44.720 all this stuff into one show. And it's this system that isn't built on apostles, prophets, pastors,

01:18:50.640 evangelists, and teachers. It's built on a talking pastor, a singing pastor, a kid's pastor,

01:18:55.100 a youth pastor, depending on what denomination, maybe a deliverance pastor,

01:18:58.940 a food drive pastor. And we've just kind of made this whole thing different than what we've been

01:19:03.880 given in the word of God, which is nothing new, because the entirety of the Bible is the covenant

01:19:07.600 people going astray from what God has clearly told them. So we've made up this system, we buy land,

01:19:13.280 we build buildings, where if you look at the scripture, the church was actually selling land,

01:19:18.800 they were selling their land and bringing that money to the apostles to distribute to the poor.

01:19:24.220 Now we're taking from the poor to buy land. It's they're completely it's a it's a very ironic

01:19:30.680 reality. But again, it's just this entire system and superstructure. Yeah, that requires so much

01:19:38.420 things that are unnecessary when really, we can be doing like what happens in the word of God,

01:19:44.240 where people are meeting together for meals, and they're meeting in homes, and they're living this

01:19:48.780 real life with one another. Like you see Jesus preaching, it's in real life, man, all everything

01:19:53.100 he's preaching. It's in real life scenarios. It's not in these made up situations, where people have

01:19:58.840 come there to be comfortable and hear the thing the way they want to hear it. Paul's preaching at Mars

01:20:04.000 Hill to people who don't want to hear what he's preaching, right? We built this system where it's

01:20:07.640 like, right, all these people that want to hear it, but they want to hear it a certain way. And you've

01:20:11.980 just built this fake ass thing. And it's creepy to me, bro, because the word of God is the most real 0.99

01:20:16.980 thing in the universe, man. There was a dude one time they asked him, they said, I think I've told this

01:20:22.160 story before he was in England, and the church was becoming empty, and the theater was becoming

01:20:27.460 busier and busier. And an interviewer asked this actor in the theater said, why do you suppose the

01:20:32.960 theater is packed, and the church is empty? And he said, I don't know, maybe it's because we take a

01:20:38.280 fake thing and make it look real, and they take a real thing and make it look fake.

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01:21:12.620 Hmm. Okay. Yeah, I mean, so, like, to your point, like, for the first 300 years of Christianity,

01:21:20.540 there was not a church building. That doesn't happen until Constantine. Like, we went 300 years

01:21:26.540 just meeting in homes. Like, that's a big deal. And to, like, act like we need all that extra stuff

01:21:34.160 is kind of crazy. But at the same time, even before that, like, when they were meeting in homes,

01:21:40.420 Justin Martyr, you familiar? He's, yeah. So he's an apostolic father of the church,

01:21:48.000 if you want to call him that. But, you know, early Christian. And in his writings, like,

01:21:52.400 he lays out, like, what the church service looked like. And, like, format-wise, you got a guy that

01:21:58.120 teaches. You got some songs. You got, like, it's actually pretty similar to what a lot of churches do

01:22:03.960 today. The question, though, becomes, like, is that really all the church is? Did he get it from

01:22:10.660 the Bible? Because I kind of am getting over this whole thing where they're like, oh, that didn't

01:22:14.840 start until 700 A.D. or this didn't start until 1200. It's like, no, no. What does the Bible say,

01:22:20.040 though? Because we can go straight to the Bible. Yeah. So in 1 Corinthians 14, 26, Paul says,

01:22:28.900 what then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn or

01:22:33.520 a word of instruction, a revelation. Sorry, it's going off the rails. A tongue or an interpretation.

01:22:39.200 Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. But, like, all those things are part of

01:22:45.440 worship. But is getting together to worship God all Christianity is? And is worship really just an

01:22:51.980 hour we set aside where we go, hey, we're doing this thing this specific way where it's all forwarded to

01:22:56.820 God? And at this point, it's not even always forwarded to God. Half the time, it's a TED Talk,

01:23:01.380 so you leave feeling good. But, like, is that all Christianity is? No. Is it part of what it is?

01:23:09.900 Yes. The vaster part is the life we live together. The modern version, dude, I think really stemmed from,

01:23:18.060 and you could probably correct me if I'm wrong, John and Charles Wesley, which was legit, dude. Like,

01:23:22.560 John Wesley's preaching fire, and his brother Charles is, like, writing hymns, basically,

01:23:26.260 of the theology of John Wesley and their rad hymns. And people are getting together in groups

01:23:31.020 of 30,000, 40,000 outdoors where John Wesley's preaching, and they don't have a slide in the

01:23:35.760 lobby and gumball machines and pizza parties. People just came to hear the preaching of the

01:23:39.920 word of God, and his brother set music to that, and they sang hymns, man. And that probably was rad.

01:23:47.140 That probably was an incredible thing. And then that was those guys. That doesn't mean every single

01:23:53.000 church now, like, exactly does that. Like, like, how is it that all of a sudden, everybody's just a 0.86

01:23:59.580 cookie cutter, robot model of the same thing? And there's no creativity, and there's nothing new,

01:24:05.120 and nothing's happening. It's just, we're just going to copy that model. So nobody's against the

01:24:09.840 freedom in Christ to develop some kind of like service, however you want. But why is everybody

01:24:14.280 just copying that? Is there an argument to be made that like, we're so sort of weighed down by

01:24:20.880 the, let's just say, like the nine to five grind, right? Like, it's something that we talk about in

01:24:25.900 the show often is how the economy is in such a shithole that it's, you require a two income

01:24:32.300 household in order to make ends meet. So that means your kids being raised by this, you know, sort of

01:24:37.200 public school system that is a government indoctrination system. And you're out of the house all day long

01:24:43.660 working surrounded by people that you don't know and don't love. They're not your family. And your

01:24:48.560 wife needs to also be out doing the exact same thing, spending the vast majority of her day around 1.00

01:24:54.220 people that aren't her family. And because of that, nobody's raising the kid. It's like you have this

01:24:59.140 thing where it's a rat race, and you're you're being crushed under the weight of, you know, the economy

01:25:04.160 and responsibility and all these different things. And then when you just want to relax, you have an

01:25:10.060 endless outlet of highly addictive things on your phone on your television, you know, at your grasp

01:25:16.740 at any given moment, you could be distracted. And the next thing you know, time has gone down the

01:25:21.320 hole, and it's time to go to sleep and start this thing over and do it again the next day. And so

01:25:26.000 nobody really has this time or they do have the time, but what little time they do have, they're using

01:25:30.800 it on these addicting, you know, media devices or what have you. And so who then is going to come out

01:25:37.280 and do something new and inspired, that's after the heart of God, they really are just struggling to make

01:25:44.880 any time within their week to go and pursue the heart of God. And so here it is this establishment

01:25:49.460 that's already here, and it's already got momentum. And let's go and do this thing. I mean, I did MMA for a long

01:25:55.060 time. And I've been to enough MMA gyms where it's like the same, you know, you want to talk about five songs at a

01:26:00.040 dance, you show up, you jump rope for three minutes, and then there's a 30 second rest, and there's another

01:26:03.940 three minutes, and there's a 30 second rest, and there's another three minutes. And now you can

01:26:06.720 shadow box and the same thing for a couple of more three minute rounds, then you pair up with a

01:26:10.960 partner, you do a little bit of technique work, you do that about three times, and that takes up the

01:26:15.180 majority of the class. Now it's time for the sermon, which is the sparring. And it's like, no matter where

01:26:20.420 I go, it's the same formula, because we're all just running out of schedule, dude, we don't have a lot

01:26:25.400 of time, we're trying to get in here, pursue this thing that's meaningful to us, and then get out and go back to

01:26:29.760 the grind. I think a lot of it is because there isn't this freedom of expression, we're not

01:26:33.920 here exploring this world and, you know, checking out all the wonders that God has left for us,

01:26:38.680 we're here grinding so that we don't end up homeless, so that we can raise a family so that

01:26:43.720 we can hopefully, you know, get our kid to go to a school that's good and, and carve their own life

01:26:48.900 out. Then by the time you're done, you sigh. And it's like, shit, that was 30 years. You know, I think

01:26:53.740 that has a lot to do with why we're not seeing this new inspired, beautiful thing that's after the heart

01:26:58.980 of God. We're just like redlining it through life. Hanging on for dear life with duct tape and

01:27:04.340 prayer. And then, and then as a church goer, your mindset, because of living like that, it's like,

01:27:09.360 yeah, I'll hand it off to the professional. Like he'll, he'll take care of it. Yeah.

01:27:13.220 Can we talk about like the, so like there, there's a lady named Jesse Crookshank. She's super 1.00

01:27:19.620 intelligent. Very, very cool. I got a podcast called Ordinary Discipleship. She's got a book

01:27:26.180 called Ordinary, Ordinary Discipleship. That's what the book is as well. But she's like a,

01:27:32.100 she's got like a doctorate in neuroscience or something like that. Like she's well versed in

01:27:38.260 like the psychology behind what's happening, how your brain works. And then she's kind of tying that

01:27:43.580 with like us as these communal beings in scripture. And she's very much a church is a community thing.

01:27:48.620 Um, but she talks about these five mission drifts, uh, drifts in disciple making that have veered from

01:27:55.360 like the path Jesus originally laid that got us to where we're currently at. Could we, could we talk

01:28:00.520 about those five like real quick? Sure. That's interesting. Is that, is that what's pulled up

01:28:04.460 here? Um, this is, this is her website. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, let's talk about that. So like

01:28:11.940 Jesus lays out this simple system that anyone can follow. Anybody can be a part of it. And the whole

01:28:18.160 idea is like you bring somebody along with you and then you send them out. And it's sort of like,

01:28:23.160 uh, the way my buddy Mike talks about it. I really liked the way he sums it up. He says, you know,

01:28:27.820 Jesus, uh, trained quickly. He sent quickly and he coached long-term like he was there for them all the

01:28:35.600 way along, but he was sent these like, you know, spiritual babies out, you know, to do his will. 0.88

01:28:41.280 And he trusted them with that, that the information he gave them was enough. They come back,

01:28:46.340 they get a little more, they go out better equipped the next time, you know, and it's just

01:28:50.040 that over and over and over again. And that's sort of what we all were to be doing. But over time,

01:28:55.480 you get, you see drift. Um, and there are a few pillars in the midst of that drift that kind of

01:29:02.260 show these major shift moments. The first one will be Constantine. Constantine comes about,

01:29:08.220 um, and the way she puts it, she says, Constantine professionalized Christianity,

01:29:13.800 that you have this priest class that raises up that are, they're these political actors,

01:29:20.280 they're government approved. And the whole deal is it's all for the sake of the ceremony.

01:29:24.720 And there's sort of this, like, um, they're a celebrity figure in a lot of ways. And the whole

01:29:31.200 idea is like, that's how you follow God is the priest. You follow what the priest says,

01:29:36.180 you listen to the priest. The next major shift would be like the enlightenment.

01:29:41.480 And she says that they, that the enlightenment rationalized Christianity, where Christianity was

01:29:47.460 no longer this thing where the main pursuit is, you know, unity with one another growing in a

01:29:54.060 transformative way in Christ and living lives honoring to him, but that it becomes about rational

01:30:00.640 minds, that it becomes about thinking, it becomes about the pursuit of knowledge, that that is the

01:30:05.260 thing. It's about learning. Now it's not about doing that was her, um, take on the great awakening,

01:30:11.460 like in new England, like, uh, Jonathan Edwards. This would be the enlightenment period. Okay. Okay.

01:30:17.540 I'm sorry. No, you're good, man. When was the enlightenment? What is that? Uh, era or let me

01:30:23.680 look at it. Uh, I do see that though. I see that now where like, um, this, the, this sort of spirit

01:30:30.040 has been removed from much of the discussion. And instead it's like arguing points and information

01:30:36.600 driven and, you know, um, I think it, it really just leads to like this almost debate culture where

01:30:43.240 it's like, instead of being after the heart of God, the feather in your cap is theological debate.

01:30:48.680 Yeah. Yeah. That's a big problem in the church today. I mean, there's a lot of different problems

01:30:53.720 within the American church culture, but one of them is, yeah, this like just an intellectual

01:30:59.000 gospel. I could be biased because I'm an idiot and I don't have the information to back half of my 0.98

01:31:03.320 thoughts. So, uh, you know, does seem pretty, uh, convenient for me to pick that, that argument, 0.96

01:31:09.580 but, uh, it just seems like that from where I'm standing. It's like, this has become more of an

01:31:14.580 intellectual pursuit and a way to gather information, to formulate arguments than it is

01:31:20.580 a spiritual thing. Cause ultimately that's what it is. Right. Um, and we, we, that doesn't come up

01:31:27.140 a lot, at least not in, in the, from, from this person who's new to all of this. I look up at all

01:31:32.480 the apparatus that's been built around this thing that I'm coming to and falling in love

01:31:36.980 with. And I go, that looks very much like an institution, um, businesses, uh, uh, governing

01:31:44.620 bodies, et cetera, and very legalistic, very text driven. And that's not what I'm discovering.

01:31:52.120 What I'm discovering is, is something that's spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, like

01:31:58.460 the, uh, and we'll kind of, we'll get more into the institutionalization of things.

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01:32:25.340 strong on this planet. Deal extended through January 16th, $49 annual fee applies.

01:32:31.180 See club for details. But like a point I meant to make on Constantine is with Constantine also comes

01:32:36.820 the idea of the dedicated building of the church. Um, and a lot of that stems from he had come out

01:32:43.120 of paganism and he's looking at around at all these other pagan religions and he's going, well,

01:32:47.940 they all have big fancy buildings. The Christians need big fancy buildings. And so now you got big fancy 1.00

01:32:52.960 buildings and they're modeled after the Greek theater, which is, you know, you can hear better,

01:32:58.800 but now you got one guy that gets elevated and he's the one, and you're a docile audience member

01:33:04.240 that is non-participatory and you're to sit quietly. But it keeps coming back to getting these models

01:33:10.420 and the things that, sorry, that we're going to do not from the scripture.

01:33:15.620 A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. Go ahead.

01:33:20.380 No, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say like Constantine, I mean, he's this

01:33:24.360 brand new Christian. Some would argue not a Christian. I'm not going to make a decision on

01:33:29.660 that. It's just, you got this guy brand new to the faith that just came out of paganism.

01:33:34.080 And all of a sudden it seems like he's superimposing a whole lot of paganism on it because he doesn't

01:33:38.940 know any better. And I would guess he wasn't discipled. You know what I'm saying? Like,

01:33:42.820 this is a guy who just goes, now I'm a Christian and I'm in charge of everything. Here's how it's

01:33:47.220 going to be. That's a problem, right? Great book on that by Frank Viola and George Barna called

01:33:55.040 Pagan Christianity. There's some stuff in there I don't agree with. There's a lot of stuff I do 1.00

01:34:00.020 agree with. It's worth checking out if you ever get the chance. Something that I noticed on the

01:34:05.320 topic of, because you said like, we're not participating in this. We're just these bystanders

01:34:10.380 that are being subjected to whatever's happening on the stage. And I really don't like that

01:34:14.380 element. And I was thinking about another aspect of like the sort of ritual, for lack of a better

01:34:21.220 term, just in the sense of repetition. And you do it every time when you show up. And it is this,

01:34:26.060 you know, please stand, right? And then you're allowed to sit for a little bit, but then it's

01:34:30.720 please stand again. And then you're allowed to sit for a little bit, then it's please stand again.

01:34:34.540 And I noticed that the standing starts to wear on you because a lot of the times you're in a

01:34:38.860 vaulted room where we're in a vaulted room where the, you know, there's a, there's a decline.

01:34:42.300 His legs are getting tired.

01:34:43.660 Dude, so it is. It's like my, but then I start, no, but that's exactly, that's exactly,

01:34:48.140 check this out.

01:34:48.820 This guy had too many hot dogs this week.

01:34:51.340 Well, it's a couple extra pounds of, uh,

01:34:53.980 Breaking the sweat.

01:34:55.800 Well, check this out though. Tell me if, tell me if I'm wrong or if there's a real point to this,

01:35:00.920 but the way I see it is it's mildly uncomfortable.

01:35:04.040 Don't laugh, dude. It's mildly uncomfortable because you're wearing like Frankenstein Doc

01:35:11.760 Martens. Yeah. All right. But hear me out. So it's a little uncomfortable. And because of that,

01:35:16.860 you start to focus much more on what's happening to, to, you know, not to use a term too much that

01:35:23.280 we beat to death on this show, but you disassociate a little bit from that. Like,

01:35:26.200 don't focus on that. I mean, why, why, why do you kneel when you pray?

01:35:29.280 We don't kneel at all in church. No, I'm saying like, well, I don't know. I think there's a

01:35:34.340 reason why you, well, it's not a comfortable position. I think, look, I think some of these

01:35:37.700 things are done out of reverence too. Like, I think you kneel in submission. Well, the kneeling

01:35:42.360 thing for me is, is humbling myself. Like it's putting myself lesser than kind of the least you

01:35:47.260 can do. Well, but the standing thing just doesn't make any other sense except for, cause I'm looking

01:35:53.800 at the context of these 90 year olds. And I'm like, these 90 year olds are standing for so long 0.58

01:35:59.200 to the point where you see them give up one by one by one. They start sitting down. They can't

01:36:03.620 hang anymore. And I'm like, so up until that point, they're engaged in pain management. What do you do

01:36:09.880 when you're engaged in pain management? You focus on something else, right? So if there are-

01:36:15.220 You're trying to get them to disassociate. Is that where you're going?

01:36:17.640 You get them to disassociate and focus on the hypnosis techniques that are happening on stage.

01:36:22.880 During state, uh, straight Bible, he keeps making me stand up. Is that?

01:36:26.520 Yeah. He's trying to get you. Well, that's really a dominant thing.

01:36:28.580 Only when he tries to read.

01:36:32.180 We have recently, well, not recently, a couple of years ago, we switched at our church. We,

01:36:37.300 we say, if you're able, please stand, you know, cause there's a lot of older folks that that does

01:36:41.580 take it. 0.97

01:36:42.040 No, I ain't no bitch. Of course I'm able. And then I look at these 90 year olds and I'm like, 0.98

01:36:45.380 I really want to sit down. But if these nine year olds, 90 year olds are still standing,

01:36:48.520 I can't sit down. I can't, I have to keep standing. But I just think that

01:36:52.360 all it is, maybe there's a reverence thing, but I think, uh, uh, kneeling, which I'm not

01:36:57.640 recommending for these old people, but I'm just saying kneeling, humbling yourself. I understand 1.00

01:37:01.820 that. Like bowing your face. I understand that. But you know, this standing thing, I'm like,

01:37:07.280 you're just trying to get these people to focus on anything other than this slow, steady.

01:37:11.620 It's taken an hour and a half, but we figured out why David it's not past. It's definitely past

01:37:16.400 Mark. It's not a lot of standing this week. Can somebody say a lot of standing?

01:37:22.740 A lot of standing. I don't want that. I don't want pastor Mark. And I find it very strange

01:37:31.320 that his entire family is on stage and I'm like, what's happening here? That's common too.

01:37:35.940 What's going on, dude? Yeah. But, but pastor Rick's family is in the pews.

01:37:41.060 They can't sing. They can't sing. And they ain't standing either. They're like, I'm not doing this

01:37:45.020 to, to the reverence thing though. Like if you look at, like at a wedding ceremony,

01:37:49.460 like you stand in reverence for the bride when she walks in, you know, like when she walks past

01:37:54.940 you, you got to be standing for five songs. That's three minutes, each song that's 15 minutes.

01:38:00.700 But then again, like who says it's gotta be five songs. That's where, you know, we're talking about

01:38:06.940 that drift, like somewhere along the line that became the norm and it got taught in, as you like

01:38:12.060 to say, cemetery school or whatever, you know? And it's like, that's how we do it now. Um, and I

01:38:17.260 think we just, you just start doing it. I don't think people think about this stuff. I don't think

01:38:21.500 a lot of this is intentional. I think it's back to that question of you don't ask why it's like,

01:38:27.220 eventually when you don't ask why long enough, you're 2000 years removed and you're going, how did

01:38:32.100 we get here? And it's like, nobody's thinking about the knees of these 90 year old people.

01:38:36.960 I will say this, like, so a problem that I had, uh, from this last week. Yeah. Pastor Rick goes,

01:38:42.640 he's, he's talking and he goes, and don't worry, we're going to wrap it up. Like he's like, I see

01:38:47.840 it. Like I see the time. And that's the part for this sermon. Are you done? Are you, when are you

01:38:52.220 done? Matt does the same thing. Do we have time? Do we get time? Because you get nasty about me going

01:38:57.240 too long. I've never, never, not once right now. It's done when you're done, but I have been to a

01:39:04.040 church with a female pastor. Like when I was very young, not by choice. No, no. Is it, is I'll

01:39:10.560 explain it another time. She would preach sometimes for 30 minutes. Sometimes she'd preach for three

01:39:15.580 hours and people would just leave and never come back. And I'm like, yeah, like you've got to,

01:39:20.640 there's a middle ground, there's a healthy middle ground, timing, like being like, well,

01:39:24.040 it's 1045. So now we've got to get to the prayers out and the older, maybe just say what you got to

01:39:30.700 say. Yeah. Also within reason. And also, I don't think we need the guy who goes, and our God is such

01:39:36.380 a awesome God. And we are. I turned his mic off this week. That's why I'm back there, baby.

01:39:43.220 I got the power. Unbelievable, dude. I'm going to take that button thing. But I'm like, I don't know

01:39:47.820 why we need this guy who speaks with the treble in his voice to, to, to do the thing. I don't know

01:39:53.200 why he's just up there for like five minutes. And then pastor Rick gets the baton. There's a lot

01:39:57.940 of baton passing. It's all very confusing. If you're there, go ahead. Well, you, you keep making

01:40:03.960 all these church references that I have never been to a church that looks like half of what you guys

01:40:08.280 are mentioning. So it's like, you're in a very Pentecostal church. Or what are, are you in a

01:40:15.420 Pentecostal church right now? Pentecostal. They keep, they bring snakes every once in a while. It's

01:40:19.040 weird. Oh yeah. That's fun. Yeah. That's good. A little strict nine.

01:40:24.780 I do think some of it's cultural, like, you know, how long should you preach for and stuff?

01:40:30.320 It's like, no, you're, no, your room. And like, how long do you have, have them captive? Because

01:40:34.740 if you're speaking beyond that, why, why, why just for you? Or is it like, because you're actually

01:40:40.760 reaching them, you know? So yeah, you're right. Like you can go way too long. You got to know.

01:40:44.840 Paul preached so long that a dude fell out the window. I mean, that's true. That's true.

01:40:50.020 That was a real environment. Like he showed up into town. They were waiting on him. He got there.

01:40:54.460 He preached and preached and preached and preached. It's just, it was a real thing. It was a real

01:40:59.720 situation with real people in a real place. And so if it's real and happening, keep it going. Right.

01:41:05.940 Right. I mean, yeah. Yeah. But you got to be present. You have to understand when you're

01:41:11.560 expecting this to be like on a schedule. Yeah. It just makes it weird. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree.

01:41:19.980 That's it. So the question is, yeah, if you want to do church, like, I guess maybe the mistake

01:41:24.440 is like, you want to talk to a couple hundred people, like you want to help a hundred, a couple

01:41:31.040 hundred people. That's probably misguided, but here you are with this. And now this is

01:41:37.520 like a weird thing because now there's this platform that you can talk to, not just a couple

01:41:42.120 hundred people, but maybe a couple, you have a couple of clips that went into a hundred

01:41:46.540 thousand. No. Yeah, you do. You already know that. Don't say that. I don't think so. Stop

01:41:50.920 it. He's, he just wants us to say it again. A hundred thousand is you talk to a lot of people

01:41:57.740 and this is completely unnatural. You got no way to disciple these people, but should

01:42:02.900 you stop doing this? Because this is not, this is weird. Well, I say it all the time.

01:42:07.360 This is what we're doing here is weird. Yeah. But we're still doing it. What do we do? He

01:42:12.620 goes, Oh, the, do they need all the lights that like, does the church need the 501 C3?

01:42:16.940 Do they need all this money to fund it? And I was like, we're sitting in a room. Like

01:42:20.340 with, I don't even know how much money of stuff. We didn't take donations to pay for it.

01:42:25.560 Like, like, it's totally different. You're saying two totally different things. Like

01:42:28.880 you guys paid for all this stuff. You didn't ask people to send you donations to pay for

01:42:33.580 it. People pay. And I think that's part of it, man. It's just being straight up. Just

01:42:37.620 being real. Like what, what am I trying to actually do with the money I'm asking for?

01:42:41.500 Like, what is the point? Like that, that's huge. Yes. Yeah. But so the question is, then

01:42:46.260 what are they trying to do? Like, what is the church trying to do when it's, when it's

01:42:49.960 buying all this stuff and it's trying to make this production, like, why is it trying to

01:42:55.420 produce in such a way? Is it trying to spread the gospel? I don't know. It's very confusing.

01:42:58.760 I almost got to give like credit where credit's due. There's a lot of things that are severely

01:43:03.040 wrong with JWs. But when you see them go out into the world with their carts and like, they're 1.00

01:43:08.040 trying to approach you. They were in Germany, bro. Yeah. They're everywhere. And they're like

01:43:11.320 approaching you. And they're like, have you heard about Jesus? And I'm like, not in the way.

01:43:15.140 They approach you. Most of the JWs I see don't approach because they, they just have to be out 1.00

01:43:20.380 there. So they don't actually engage. There is a lot of that, but it's still like they've created

01:43:25.520 and I'm not saying you should do this, but I'm just saying they've created this program where like

01:43:29.300 you at least have to go out. And if you want to not approach people, that's one thing. But

01:43:33.080 generally speaking, they come and knock on your doors. Right. I mean, I used to have JWs ring my 1.00

01:43:37.480 doorbell and I'd be like, Oh no, get in the closet. You know, like I'd be mortified that they were

01:43:42.280 that much. Just, I don't know how, why that's why I dealt with things when I was a kid.

01:43:45.140 Um, but you know, that aspect of going out into the world, whether or not you are going to do

01:43:51.740 anything is up to you, but they're pushing the bar further to create a situation where you're much

01:43:56.640 likely, much more likely to, you know, make disciples of men by going out and preaching the

01:44:02.280 gospel. And so obviously there's a lot of issues with Mormons. Yeah. Mormons do the same thing. Yeah. 0.97

01:44:07.400 Yeah. And they're effective at it. Even though it's heresy, but they're effective at it.

01:44:12.800 But that's what, you know, it's like, they have a lot of things wrong and something perhaps,

01:44:17.360 perhaps that's a lesson to be learned there. It's like, they're, they're spreading and,

01:44:21.680 you know, shout out to our Mormon fans, but they're spreading something that is on its face. 0.99

01:44:25.920 Ridiculous. Like it's, it's, it was made into like the laughingstock of Broadway and, 0.95

01:44:31.700 and for good reason, but they are spreading it. It is growing. And you look at it. I mean,

01:44:36.240 even Islam is growing, I guess they're spreading it in jail or whatever they're doing. Well, when 1.00

01:44:39.860 you keep showing up and stabbing people and stuff like that's the way of. So to be clear, 0.84

01:44:43.820 Christianity is growing, just not here. Yeah. Like it's growing in China where you can't 0.99

01:44:50.360 practice it. It's growing in middle Eastern nations where you can't practice it. It's an 1.00

01:44:55.520 underground movement where it is thriving. So, I mean. It only thrives when it's real though.

01:45:01.000 That's the whole point when it's part of the American culture. That's right. They did the big

01:45:05.420 show with the Charlie Kirk thing and everybody's singing along. That's where you just see a church

01:45:10.460 just dying, dude. Like a, like a lazy, uh, like over, overfed, over moneyed giant system. That was

01:45:19.020 those churches that never grows, man. Like only the real church that like lives in hardship and in

01:45:24.100 places where you don't get personal gain for being a Christian. Cause that's what you're describing in

01:45:28.620 China is like there, you're not doing it for personal gain. Like you're only doing it because

01:45:32.340 it's real. Yeah. Because you'll probably die for doing it. Right. Like it's your life on the line

01:45:37.580 here. You have nothing to get for me. Yeah. I guess again, we're, we're back and I don't,

01:45:44.280 I don't, I want to respect your time. Zach. Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, I texted my wife. I have as much

01:45:48.740 time. I did it. That's crazy. I did the thing, dude. Okay. That's funny. You feel stupid. I feel

01:45:57.960 pretty, I feel pretty good right now. You have a few more minutes. Um, yeah. You were saying

01:46:04.600 something before. Can we hit those three other pillars and then I think, okay, so we're not up

01:46:09.960 against a hard finish. We're going to keep going. Yeah. If that's cool with you, you guys are good.

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01:46:38.260 planet. Deal extended through January 16th. $49 annual fee applies. See club for details.

01:46:45.080 So, I mean, so like after the enlightenment, which was in the 1700s, by the way, you then

01:46:50.300 get, uh, well, so these aren't in, these aren't necessarily in order. The reformation technically

01:46:55.360 takes place before that, right? That's like 1660. But through the reformation, then you

01:47:00.000 get the, it sermonized it. It made it all about the sermon. So it is about listening to the

01:47:05.440 pastor now, because now it's not a priest, right? Now it's a pastor with the reformation.

01:47:09.780 And so it's about the, uh, sermon and the pastor becomes the head that is the discipler.

01:47:15.300 Then you get the industrial revolution. And maybe this one's big for you guys, because this

01:47:20.200 systematized it. This is where the system kind of gets built because like out of the industrial

01:47:24.940 revolution, that's where you get like the modern system for like what school looks like, where

01:47:29.260 everybody is taught exactly the same. Everybody's treated like a sheep that is to learn,

01:47:34.240 not even to learn, to memorize. That's where you get the work line to like the standardized

01:47:38.660 factory work. Exactly. What the school was meant to emulate. I I'll just push back again

01:47:43.220 really quickly though, with this show, something that we we've learned the hard way. If you don't

01:47:49.020 systematize something, it just either nothing gets done or shit goes haywire. And it's like, 0.78

01:47:54.800 that has been a big, like for when people see the episodes that air, Matt still doesn't even

01:47:59.200 know there's like, I don't know, 32 steps, maybe something like that. I remember counting it up.

01:48:03.960 It was insane. Yeah. It's insane. You're a business. A business should have systems.

01:48:08.840 There's something to be said about doing it to the degree where you micromanage every aspect of it.

01:48:13.660 And I think when you do that, you inherently remove the spirit from a thing.

01:48:17.060 Yeah. And so let me, let me be clear. It's not the system that's bad. It's that the system becomes

01:48:22.040 that everyone is to be treated exactly the same and everyone learns exactly the same and everybody

01:48:26.520 brings things to the table in the exact same way. And we just know that's not true. We're all

01:48:32.000 gifted differently. We're all built differently. And Jesus's system is the Holy Spirit working

01:48:37.020 through a bunch of differently gifted people. It's like when he talks about the body, the body has

01:48:41.300 many parts, a body can't be made up all out of ears. That body does nothing.

01:48:45.840 That's a hideous body.

01:48:47.280 Yeah. It's awful, right? Like it needs, the ear needs the eye, the eye needs the foot,

01:48:51.340 the whole thing works together.

01:48:52.480 He mentions an ear in the passage, but like, but the point, the point is like every single

01:49:00.140 body part comes together for the whole church. We in the industrial revolution are like, ah,

01:49:07.120 it's all just a, it's all eyes. It's all noses. It's like, you know what I'm saying? And it's like,

01:49:11.700 no, you have people are individuals and they, God speaks through different individuals differently.

01:49:17.720 His Holy Spirit, like he uses us as conduits for his Holy Spirit. And so when we gather together,

01:49:23.800 I'm going to learn something different from you to you, to you, like each of you are going to bring

01:49:28.600 something different to the table. And I'm going to bring something different to the table because

01:49:32.380 God uses our individualness.

01:49:35.120 Yeah. That's a great point too, about the, uh,

01:49:37.840 about the body of Christ. Cause like me and my family talk about it sometimes that like, uh,

01:49:49.000 you know, if you were to take like a lungs and a heart and a kneecap and some fingernails and some

01:49:54.640 eyeballs and, you know, hair follicles and put it all on the table, it wouldn't look like it was part

01:50:00.220 of the same body at all. It wouldn't even look like it was from the same planet if you took all

01:50:03.980 the stuff. And so it's very weird that like modern American church culture, that everybody can start

01:50:10.080 to look the same. I don't know that everybody should be looking the same. Like the thing that

01:50:13.960 we have, uh, in common is love. Like Jesus said, that's how they'll know that you're my disciples

01:50:19.180 is by love. So we could have that in common. But as far as like all being exactly the same,

01:50:24.640 it's not, it's not supposed to look like that. We are supposed to be a vast, vastly different body,

01:50:28.580 which is what makes denominations crazy because they attract all like people. Like if you look

01:50:36.520 at an apostolic Pentecostal church, you're going to see a lot of people that are wired very similarly.

01:50:41.600 If you go look at a Calvinist church, you're going to see a lot of people that are wired exactly the

01:50:46.460 same or very similarly. And it's like, not that I'm, yeah, I got my own qualms with the apostolic

01:50:53.220 Pentecostal church. I think there's some heresy stuff going on there as it's modalism. But my point

01:50:58.440 is like Pentecostals need Calvinists and they both need Wesleyans and that like, we each bring

01:51:06.100 something different to the, and I'm not saying like that we need all the doctrines, but I'm saying

01:51:10.080 like, we need all of our natural wirings that God gave us working together. And furthermore,

01:51:16.260 and sorry, in the, um, in leadership, I'd say it's the same way, dude. Like if you look back at,

01:51:25.420 um, great preachers of time past, take a guy like William Grimshaw, um, a great Methodist preacher,

01:51:31.880 you read his story and he went to everybody's home that was in his, uh, parish, if you will.

01:51:39.280 Cause he's a shepherd. Yeah. He went to everybody's home. He ate with them. He read scripture with them.

01:51:45.080 He prayed with them. He knew where each of the members, if you will, of his church were at.

01:51:49.600 Uh, let's not do that. Um, I'm sorry about the name. He, he knew, he knew how everybody in his

01:51:58.240 home lived. Um, they say Tozer was nothing like that. They said A.W. Tozer was just in a crow's

01:52:04.940 nest office and just came out and preached fire. Every time he preached dude, however many days a

01:52:09.380 week he was doing it, he was just preaching fire. So I don't know, to me, that's more of maybe even

01:52:14.120 like a prophetic role. Like he operated in the prophetic, not in the shepherd role, like,

01:52:19.000 like not in the pastor role, like not even remotely close, but for all of us, we just call both of

01:52:24.020 those pastor because like, bingo, bingo. They shoved them all into one role. They put it all

01:52:29.620 into one thing and that just, that weighs heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And then you see these

01:52:35.280 pastors are just worn down today because they have to function as all fives. Like they have,

01:52:39.880 like they have to function as all of the roles that's supposed to be in leadership where it's,

01:52:44.820 it's just not supposed to be like that. It's supposed to be multiple elders. Paul told Titus

01:52:48.460 Gordon, elders, plural. It's like in any kind of like congregation or whatever you even want to call

01:52:52.820 it, there should be multiple elders, not one singular. There should be prophets. There should

01:52:57.260 be apostles. There should be evangelists. There should be teachers. And some of those kind of operate

01:53:01.840 across different lines too. They can kind of do more than one. You might be, you might be a couple,

01:53:06.300 right? You know, you want to know something funny, man? David's favorite pastor. I actually,

01:53:12.160 I was able to, it's like, when I talk to people, I don't like to just like, I don't like to talk to 0.98

01:53:16.760 them and get like the bullshit. Like you get that from people. Hello, how are you doing? And there's 0.92

01:53:20.660 like this thing. I keep like poking and to see who's underneath. And I did one time and I was like,

01:53:28.320 how are things going? There's a transition happening here. This is going to be crazy for you.

01:53:33.000 And he told me straight up, he was like, he's like, I'll be honest with you. Like,

01:53:36.100 I feel like, like he's, he said, he's something like he's being squashed a little bit. He's like,

01:53:40.260 I'm not able to even like get into the word the way I want to, because there's so much,

01:53:45.520 there's so many duties with this and like, especially the transition just as the, as the

01:53:51.100 pastor. And I told him, I was like, that seems like it's a big problem. Like you should, should you be

01:53:56.640 doing this, this way? I don't, I don't know any answers. And he was like, I don't know,

01:54:02.120 but it's like, this is not what I'm saying is this is not something that is like, we're,

01:54:06.100 we're bringing up and like, wow, that's profound. The people that are going through it are being

01:54:09.720 squashed by this. Yes. But we do have the answer for that. It's in a, is it act six or seven where

01:54:16.500 the, um, the Greek widows are complaining that they're not being taken care of, but the Hebrew 0.93

01:54:21.340 widows are in the apostle say, Hey man, let's look out dudes full of wisdom and full of the Holy 0.99

01:54:26.740 ghost and put them over that stuff, over that business stuff so that we can stay in prayer in

01:54:32.420 the word. So we do have biblical context for, no, if the guy's bringing forth the word, like he's not

01:54:38.860 supposed to be messing around with all the other shenanigans, dude. He's supposed to be like in the

01:54:43.020 word of God in prayer. And then if it is a one day a week thing, like whatever, but let's just say it

01:54:49.080 is, it should be fire, bro. Like people should be shocked at like what's coming forth. They should be

01:54:53.500 like, dang, dude, this guy hits. But if you're so engaged with all the worldliness of the church

01:54:58.640 system all week long, and then somehow you're going to preach some heavenly message. I don't know.

01:55:03.920 That's why it's not happening. I feel like that's really, um, pastor Rick's, uh, spot is when he starts

01:55:11.500 talking about scripture. Um, he has such a great way of unpacking it and then, you know, imparting this

01:55:18.740 on you and you can see in the way he delivers it. Like he loves the Lord. That's like the real

01:55:27.020 genuine thing that comes across. And then in the other stuff, it's like, you know, he's just going

01:55:31.540 through these daily operations, but yeah, man, it's like, if you have a guy that can do that,

01:55:35.380 that's like that in touch with it, that you can tell genuinely loves the Lord and believes this is

01:55:41.180 the word of God and is trying desperately to help you understand this thing. Like that's almost all

01:55:48.480 that guy should be doing. In my opinion, it's like, stop crushing this 80 year old dude. Well,

01:55:52.880 then let him just do that. But then this gets to a question. Somebody had brought this up in the chat

01:55:57.500 and I thought it was interesting. So they said all churches and denominations can do it. Unfortunately,

01:56:02.140 JW and Mormons alike are quick to ostracize and push out anything bad. Yeah. Um, this idea of 0.99

01:56:09.400 pushing out of having this small tent, because I don't know how many people are you really

01:56:16.220 realistically going to have in leadership? And then how does this go? Like how many different

01:56:20.960 directions is this eventually going to pull in, like, you know, pull the church in or pull the

01:56:25.860 body of Christ in there has to be something to be said for that. Like about if we are, we're supposed

01:56:31.720 to be one body with that, that are, uh, you know, unique, but all put together. Yeah. And walk in

01:56:39.360 the same direction. How the hell do you do that? There has to be a system. You have to systemize

01:56:44.540 it. It's called God. I mean, like, that's the crazy thing is we, well, like a lot of people,

01:56:48.380 well, how can I support, how can the church exist if we don't take people's tithe?

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01:57:22.780 I don't know. Maybe trust God. I don't, I mean, how did we open a coffee shop? I didn't have $200,000

01:57:28.820 when I said I was going to open a Christian library. Now you're rich. Now you're rich. Do

01:57:33.420 you see what I'm saying? You just trust God. And I know that's like not a cool thing anymore. We're

01:57:37.160 like, no, we need to make a man-made system to make this work. But I'm just saying that's biblical.

01:57:42.000 But okay. So, so to, to all your points here, like, uh, can I just like power through a few

01:57:48.620 different Bible verses real quick and just make a point about all of them. So like James 5, 16 says,

01:57:53.640 therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

01:57:57.640 The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. So confess your sins to one another

01:58:03.480 for the, for the purpose of laying down those sins, right? We jump over to Galatians 6, 1 through 2.

01:58:10.780 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the spirit should restore that

01:58:15.260 person gently, but watch yourselves or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens. And in this

01:58:20.680 way, you will fulfill the law of Christ. Uh, the third one's Hebrews 3, 12 through 13. It says,

01:58:26.760 see to it brothers and sisters that none of you has a sinful unbelieving heart that turns away from

01:58:30.860 the living God, but encourage one another daily as long as it is called today so that none of you

01:58:36.160 may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. First Thessalonians 5, 14 through 15 says, and we urge

01:58:41.980 you brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the

01:58:47.080 weak, be patient with everyone, make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do

01:58:52.380 what is good for each other and for everyone else. And then finally Romans 15, 14, I myself am convinced

01:58:58.900 my brothers and sisters that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to

01:59:04.560 instruct one another. I read all those things right there because it's like, those can't happen on a

01:59:10.840 Sunday morning. Those are instructions given to the body to do for one another. And we look to Sunday

01:59:18.440 and we go, my pastor's supposed to do those things. And like, to your point, Top, like keeping those

01:59:23.540 things in line would be impossible for a pastor to do. Keeping all that functional when we're all

01:59:29.920 together for the good of the team to move towards Christ and we're all keeping each other in check and

01:59:35.500 all moving towards Jesus with the Bible guiding us overhead. Like the Holy Spirit's our teacher,

01:59:41.340 like let the Holy Spirit teach, right? Like that's how we keep things like that in check. It can't,

01:59:46.900 like there are overseers. There are elders that, that see over that and try to keep things in line

01:59:52.580 when they veer, but all in all, like it's up to all of us working together to make it happen.

01:59:58.740 Not a priest class of professionals. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that goes back to that 0.89

02:00:05.440 thing where it's not supposed to be this thing that just happens once a week. That's right.

02:00:09.080 You're not supposed to just go and have this experience and closeness to God for an hour and a half.

02:00:13.860 If, uh, if you're an hour and a half, hour, 20, whatever, once a week, this is a life, not a day.

02:00:19.660 What's the, what is the exact context of the Romans 14? Because if Paul's going to look at them

02:00:25.560 and say, I'm convinced that you're going to do the right thing. Like, what is that? What does that

02:00:30.900 even mean? What kind of relationship do you have to have? He says, he says capable, like, right?

02:00:36.100 Like I'm convinced that you're full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one

02:00:40.440 another. He's saying, you're able to do this. He's not necessarily saying like, it's going to

02:00:44.880 happen. Right. But he's saying like, you could be doing this. Like you should be doing this. You

02:00:49.720 know what I'm saying? Hmm. Yeah. I guess this is the idea of the micromanagement, right? The

02:00:55.200 helicopter parent, uh, sort of thing that is very popular in, in recent history, maybe just our

02:01:01.740 generation. Uh, yeah. I mean, definitely the people that raised us didn't do that. And then I guess we

02:01:08.540 raised a bunch of kids and did that shit to them, but yeah. Yeah. They're doing it in the 1.00

02:01:13.000 church too. And it feels like, you know, you're, you are controlling a thing and you're making it,

02:01:17.380 um, predictable and you're making it safe. But in the end, what, what are you producing? I,

02:01:23.820 that remains, it doesn't really remain to be seen. I guess Matt has already decided what it's

02:01:27.340 produced. Well, it's, it's almost, um, and I don't think you're wrong. It's almost a bit of a moot

02:01:31.920 point, right? Because it's like, you're not going to change this system. And this system

02:01:37.740 isn't the end all be all we've already established. It's not supposed to happen one day a week. So

02:01:42.720 the only thing to say or do about it is to live your life this way. But the system, the system is

02:01:49.700 prime for change. If this makes any sense, like you're still changing a thing that's only happening

02:01:55.280 on Sundays. Well, no, the church exists all like seven days a week. It's there the whole time. It's

02:02:03.040 just, this is just a building, you know, this is just a place with things in it. It needs to have

02:02:07.560 people there doing and doing the right thing. But like, yeah, I don't, I don't know, man.

02:02:13.720 Well, yeah. And if there is going to be people paying for these land in these buildings,

02:02:17.140 the least you could do is let them access it seven days a week. Like if your congregation paid for all

02:02:22.360 that, bro, you should have something going on there. Again, if you have fully operational apostles,

02:02:27.380 apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers doesn't mean it's the same guy teaching

02:02:32.080 every night. It doesn't mean it's the same people teaching every day, but like, and especially

02:02:36.300 depending on like, uh, how many people belong to this church or whatever, like why are young people

02:02:41.820 paying for daycare? Like why are, if there's old people who are like retired and not even sure if

02:02:47.340 they're like life means anything anymore, you know, they want to have meaning in their life.

02:02:51.400 And then they have young families like in their church paying the world for the world to train

02:02:58.100 their little kids. Like that's just a crazy thing. I mean, there's, there is good.

02:03:01.860 Because we live in a world where if you give my kid a peanut and he asphyxiates, I'm going to sue you. 0.53

02:03:05.360 Also the last time I let an old person watch my kid, he pulled his tooth out. 0.66

02:03:09.160 Oh, that's right. Yeah, I did. But they just, they just want to know why your kid is not wearing socks.

02:03:13.540 That's the question. Why isn't this kid wearing socks? My grandma, every single time.

02:03:17.740 Thank you.

02:03:47.740 I'm just saying there's really cool things that could be happening with these buildings that people are paying for.

02:03:55.440 Yeah.

02:03:56.080 Let's go and talk to pastor Rick and be like, let us gain access to this place seven days a week.

02:03:59.860 We want to open up a coffee shop.

02:04:02.200 Right? I wonder.

02:04:03.440 That's kind of what it is. It's like this community where people come in and out of,

02:04:06.580 how does it sustain itself? And then are you doing a show on,

02:04:10.620 does it even matter if you're doing a show on Sunday?

02:04:13.100 No.

02:04:13.460 I have a thought on this, but really quick, just because I think before we get an answer to this,

02:04:22.880 one more pillar, if you will bear with me.

02:04:27.280 Evangelism personalizes it.

02:04:29.240 And that means it takes the focus off the community and it puts it on the individual.

02:04:35.380 And now it's all about the individualism.

02:04:37.660 And so it's your personal prayer time.

02:04:39.660 How do you feel?

02:04:40.800 What does church make you feel like?

02:04:42.620 With all that said,

02:04:47.540 Top, you were getting at, like, how do you fix this?

02:04:52.180 If I bring this back to a conversation, Top, you and Matt got into it over an issue a couple episodes ago.

02:04:58.280 I can't, yeah. Can you believe that?

02:04:59.980 The Jews? 0.81

02:05:01.120 No, it wasn't the Jews. 0.73

02:05:02.820 It was...

02:05:03.920 Color me surprised.

02:05:05.100 Tell me if you remember, but like, you guys were talking about how every girl today has got an OnlyFans.

02:05:09.640 And how you don't want your son growing up in an age where that's the world.

02:05:16.720 It's been colored by, like, everybody's got an OnlyFans.

02:05:20.100 I'm going to say that all the time.

02:05:20.740 No, stop it. Zach's about to slam dunk on you, right?

02:05:23.020 No, I think you might dunk on me, but it can go either way.

02:05:24.560 No, I'm going to draw, like, a bridge here.

02:05:27.360 Because, like, I think you were both right in the way you came about it.

02:05:30.380 But I think there's a third...

02:05:31.300 Well, I think there's a third way, though, that makes the whole thing work together. 0.95

02:05:38.340 Like, Top is right in that, like, it sucks and we should be mad. 0.75

02:05:44.160 What did you say? One more time, right? 0.98

02:05:46.220 I'm sorry. I forget.

02:05:48.060 Some of it.

02:05:49.100 I forget what you're dealing with here.

02:05:51.380 Forget.

02:05:52.020 Just hold on to it, because there's going to be a Matt is right, too.

02:05:55.680 But Top is right in that, like, we should be mad that we live in a world filled with, like,

02:06:02.920 every girl walking down the street's got a porn station out there, right? 1.00

02:06:08.320 Like, OnlyFans, that sort of thing.

02:06:09.760 Like, that's crazy.

02:06:11.000 We shouldn't want that. 0.53

02:06:12.820 That should be fixed, because that sucks for the world.

02:06:16.820 Matt said, I'm just going to live my life for Jesus, and it's going to work out.

02:06:23.140 And he's also right, like, God's will will be done.

02:06:28.380 Everything will be made right.

02:06:30.500 But then I think there's a third way, which is, like, we are called to go plant the seed of the gospel

02:06:37.700 in the hearts of even those OnlyFans models, the people that are doing these things.

02:06:43.280 Because the point is, you and me can try and change the world all day.

02:06:49.120 Or as a lot of people like to think today, if I elect the right guy, the world will change for the better.

02:06:53.580 And it's like, that's crazy.

02:06:55.200 Things don't happen from the top down.

02:06:57.160 They happen at the grassroots, and they ripple out into the greater reaches of the world.

02:07:03.120 Nobody changes without Jesus Christ giving them a new heart.

02:07:06.820 He takes away their heart of stone.

02:07:07.960 He gives them a heart of flesh.

02:07:09.040 He transforms them.

02:07:10.020 He brings them from death to life.

02:07:11.540 And so the way you fix everybody having an OnlyFans is you teach an OnlyFans model that

02:07:17.520 Jesus, the Lord of the universe, took you out of your sin and your death, and he saved you.

02:07:22.220 And maybe that seed doesn't plant, but maybe it does.

02:07:25.700 And maybe for her, then she can start changing, and then she starts preaching that gospel into 0.98

02:07:31.540 the lives of the people around her.

02:07:33.400 And eventually, OnlyFans is on its way out because there aren't enough people that like it.

02:07:38.820 Like, now, I know that's thinking way too big.

02:07:40.660 No, I think you're right about that, though, because it's like, it doesn't matter if the

02:07:44.320 seed takes, right?

02:07:45.640 This is a thing that I've been becoming more comfortable with.

02:07:48.820 You're called to do a thing.

02:07:50.640 Don't be concerned with the what if this doesn't work or what.

02:07:54.520 Go and do the thing.

02:07:56.040 You're called to make disciples of men.

02:07:58.260 Go and make disciples.

02:07:59.640 You're worried that this person's not going to be receptive. 1.00

02:08:02.020 Shut up and do it. 0.98

02:08:03.640 I had to learn that the hard way with the whole going and talking to Clint thing. 0.99

02:08:07.160 And then I had this whole, you know, debacle that took place because of I'm pretty convicted

02:08:12.140 in the idea that it was because of disobedience.

02:08:14.780 I was called to do a thing.

02:08:16.340 I chose not to.

02:08:18.120 I leaned on a bunch of excuses as to why I shouldn't do it. 0.99

02:08:20.860 And then I ended up getting the shit under the stick for disobedience because of it. 0.97

02:08:24.620 And it's like, I understand a little bit more now. 0.99

02:08:28.420 It doesn't matter.

02:08:29.840 You're the guy who plants the seeds after the seed is planted.

02:08:34.500 That's in God's hands.

02:08:36.080 Bingo.

02:08:36.920 And maybe it's multiple touch points.

02:08:38.880 Maybe like you come back and you check on him again, maybe.

02:08:41.240 But like if you're getting red lights all day and they don't want anything to do with

02:08:44.540 you, Jesus says, wipe the dust from your feet and move on.

02:08:48.520 Like sometimes that you got to do that too, right?

02:08:51.260 You got to be in constant prayer over that sort of thing.

02:08:54.740 Did we lose him?

02:08:55.860 Is he gone?

02:08:56.480 Yeah, he just didn't like that one.

02:08:57.980 And he's like, I got to go now.

02:08:59.140 He's like, I hate this guy.

02:09:00.800 I understand.

02:09:01.700 You know what it is?

02:09:02.660 He's old.

02:09:03.400 We live in the villages and this is an elderly community.

02:09:08.100 And so there are, you know, and Matt's one of them, people that are a little bit seasoned,

02:09:14.420 long in the tooth, towards the end of their, you know, experiences here.

02:09:18.580 Their reign.

02:09:18.920 And as far as stamina goes, ability to focus, he's actually showing early signs of dementia.

02:09:27.800 And it's something that we haven't, it's a touchy subject.

02:09:30.260 And I'm looking for a way to bring it up to him.

02:09:33.020 That got dark fast, man.

02:09:34.820 I don't think that he would remember if we did bring it up to him anyway.

02:09:38.780 So, oh, he's back.

02:09:40.560 All right.

02:09:40.680 Don't tell him I said that.

02:09:41.600 Oh, so, yeah.

02:09:45.880 So, oh, you're so stressed, dude.

02:09:48.460 No, no.

02:09:49.020 He's talking about the thing with Clinton and the talking or whatever.

02:09:52.120 Listen, I get it.

02:09:53.480 I get it.

02:09:54.440 Well, it is what it is.

02:09:55.420 But yeah, I do think that that's what we're supposed to do is we, we plant those seeds and

02:09:59.040 then we just, you know, whatever happens.

02:10:00.920 And if, if like, you know, you were just talking about, if there's all these attempts and somebody's

02:10:04.900 not hearing it, dust off your feet and leave.

02:10:06.700 But which is interesting because it's not saying it's going to work every time either.

02:10:10.860 That's not the message here.

02:10:12.420 It's not that it's going to work.

02:10:13.480 If somebody's not receptive to multiple attempts, you know, go somewhere else.

02:10:17.660 You've got a job to do.

02:10:18.920 Well, that is the issue when you do try to make it work every time is you end up changing

02:10:23.980 the message to make it palatable because the Christian message is not very palatable to

02:10:28.200 the flesh.

02:10:29.180 Yeah.

02:10:29.900 Right. 1.00

02:10:30.400 You've got to, you've got to die to self. 1.00

02:10:32.200 Like you're a sinner. 1.00

02:10:33.560 You've got to die to self and give your life to God. 0.99

02:10:36.080 And you owe him that.

02:10:37.240 Like people, you know, you have to change it to make it palatable.

02:10:40.040 And then people go, Oh, I think I like this whole Christian thing.

02:10:43.200 And to that point, man, is like, when we look at the current church and we go, here's

02:10:47.200 everything wrong with it.

02:10:48.400 Well, everything wrong with it's going to be sin because that's how everything works.

02:10:52.020 Like sin is the thing wrong with everything.

02:10:53.980 Right.

02:10:54.340 And so it's like the way we fix the brokenness of the current church system.

02:10:59.820 Well, I think it's twofold.

02:11:01.320 One, everything we've said thus far, I mean, maybe everything we've said thus far is like,

02:11:07.780 why can't you just start a church out of your home?

02:11:11.560 Why can't you just start meeting with people out of your house?

02:11:14.680 You don't need a building.

02:11:15.480 You don't need a guy who's a professional.

02:11:17.320 You need the Holy spirit and you need people called by God.

02:11:20.720 That's what you need.

02:11:22.500 Beyond that, if you are in the middle of the 501c3 system, start getting rid of all the 1.00

02:11:27.860 junk.

02:11:28.720 My church is currently trying to go, how can, how can we distance ourself from all the 1.00

02:11:35.360 501c3 garbage?

02:11:37.260 Like, how do we make that a thing over here? 0.55

02:11:39.140 Like maybe, maybe the building is, is run by its own little committee and they worry

02:11:45.280 about all the day-to-day legal garbage.

02:11:47.400 And then we can just go and we're just the church and we're just going to be the church 0.98

02:11:51.960 and we're going to do church and we're going to get rid of all the crap that isn't church. 0.89

02:11:56.300 Yeah. 0.97

02:11:57.180 That'd be nice.

02:11:58.740 Like those things are tied together though.

02:12:00.520 Like that's the thing.

02:12:01.760 Well, until somebody breaks the mold and then makes that the new standard, right?

02:12:05.640 It's all about, you just need money to do that.

02:12:07.780 Yeah.

02:12:07.920 That's just a fact.

02:12:08.540 I mean, to do what?

02:12:10.520 I mean, if you want to have people in a, in a place that's not being rained on, he sent

02:12:14.380 me a church that was a tent.

02:12:15.860 I said, no, thank you.

02:12:17.060 I'm not going to go into that.

02:12:18.060 I'm not going to attend.

02:12:18.980 It's not the only reason you said no, but the same thing he goes, oh, why don't we go

02:12:22.100 and donate, you know, the, the charity funds to people directly in the hood?

02:12:26.020 I said, I'm not doing that either.

02:12:27.460 You know, somebody else is a better man than me.

02:12:29.420 It's a good time.

02:12:30.260 Somebody else is a better man than me.

02:12:31.760 There's many of those.

02:12:32.700 Right in my comfy.

02:12:33.840 Okay.

02:12:34.340 So what, what do you guys bring to the table though?

02:12:37.400 Cause yeah, maybe you're not the guy that decides how we, how we just stop it.

02:12:41.320 No, that's BS.

02:12:42.460 Like you guys, you guys are talkers.

02:12:44.920 You guys are talkers.

02:12:46.200 You know how to reach people.

02:12:47.480 You know how to level with people.

02:12:49.040 Use that.

02:12:49.880 Let somebody else that knows how to distribute money to the people that need it.

02:12:53.180 Do that.

02:12:54.040 Lean into your gifting.

02:12:55.500 You don't have to do it all, but get a good group of people around you that are going to

02:12:59.180 help make it all work together.

02:13:00.300 Top is actually on a reconnaissance mission, if you will, at the 501c3 that he's currently

02:13:07.700 at, because he's got plans to, as Hicks has requested to open his own church.

02:13:14.440 And he's going to somehow do some kind of music that actually is worship where it's not

02:13:18.640 just a cover band and he's going to like, you want to know my plans.

02:13:21.600 I'll be very upfront with you. 0.99

02:13:23.700 I go kill everybody at blue litter Bible. 1.00

02:13:26.500 Yeah. 1.00

02:13:26.660 I go.

02:13:27.500 Yes.

02:13:28.120 First and foremost, no, I go there.

02:13:30.880 Number one, because my, my parents go there and they've been bringing my children.

02:13:36.600 So I went to see what it was about.

02:13:38.620 And I said, okay, I should stick around and check this place out because my children are

02:13:43.160 developing here and they're doing like whatever you can say about the 501c3 system and the

02:13:48.140 youth pastors, a pastor for this, but my kids are benefiting from being in this.

02:13:52.640 I respect that.

02:13:53.460 And I see that.

02:13:54.680 Amen.

02:13:54.980 So I'm, I'm there and I'm like, I can volunteer.

02:13:58.200 I can help them in a way.

02:14:00.220 Cause I, I know some stuff.

02:14:02.000 I also don't know some things.

02:14:03.680 So while I'm in that system, I say, Hey, what's up with this AV?

02:14:07.300 What's up with this production here?

02:14:08.700 And then I learned that program and then I run it for Matt show on straight Bible.

02:14:13.520 And then they have a professional recording program.

02:14:16.680 That's, I mean.

02:14:17.440 And they have, and they have a professional, and they have a professional sound.

02:14:22.200 Why should I not?

02:14:22.940 As is what I've done my entire life. 0.97

02:14:25.600 Everywhere I go, I started off working construction and I was cleaning shit from a basement after 0.94

02:14:31.340 hurricane Sandy. 0.90

02:14:32.460 And then I said, I, you know, I was hanging out with one of the carpenters and he's building

02:14:36.160 a staircase.

02:14:36.640 I said, how do you do that?

02:14:37.840 And he showed me.

02:14:38.680 And then the same thing, I go to the MTA and I'm just swinging a hammer and there's a

02:14:41.960 guy operating machinery.

02:14:43.120 I say, Hey, what's up, bro?

02:14:44.520 What's that, what's that button do?

02:14:45.560 And then he shows me, and then I do, and then I drive it.

02:14:48.260 And then, and then it's just an escalating scale of doing that.

02:14:50.480 Why would you not do that?

02:14:51.760 This is a, this is a resource.

02:14:53.080 And also I'm helping.

02:14:54.220 And it's like, I don't really see the only downside is that I'm helping to sustain a

02:14:59.440 system that has a lot of obvious problems.

02:15:02.520 But if I don't help, what is it, is it going to fail?

02:15:04.860 Because I already left the church and I said, I'll leave here.

02:15:08.220 I used to organize the music for the church and they won't, they still exist today.

02:15:12.380 It doesn't matter what I do.

02:15:13.640 The kids is the, uh, was the most difficult thing for us was like, yo, if we leave this

02:15:18.920 501c3 system, like what about the kids, man?

02:15:21.480 And, uh, but we, we made a decision, like we weighed the pros and cons and thought it

02:15:26.580 was better to not raise them in that system.

02:15:28.420 But I would 100% respect anybody who says, no, we weighed the pros and cons and it was

02:15:33.360 better to keep the kids in the system. 0.76

02:15:34.860 Then I totally respect that.

02:15:36.140 It's not there.

02:15:36.640 Not that they're in the system.

02:15:37.700 They go once a week.

02:15:38.660 This is like the kids.

02:15:40.340 No, no.

02:15:41.080 I mean, the system would be like, like, uh, being completely indoctrinated by they go once

02:15:45.980 a week.

02:15:46.240 And then the rest of the pretty much seven days a week, they're being dealt with by me.

02:15:49.600 So you could imagine what being raised by me is like, they just come here. 1.00

02:15:53.820 This is just supplementary stuff.

02:15:55.280 They get community.

02:15:56.160 They read the scriptures.

02:15:57.460 They do like activities with, and I'm like, this is great, man.

02:16:00.340 And I think, I think that that's great for my kids.

02:16:02.380 The other six days they get Mr.

02:16:03.700 Nasty.

02:16:06.240 And like another piece of this that is crucial is like the, the, the leaders that currently 0.93

02:16:11.300 exist within these structures.

02:16:12.660 Like, I know there are people like me that are wrestling with these things and the change

02:16:19.260 you have to bring is like, you got to be up front.

02:16:21.340 You can't let your paycheck.

02:16:23.540 You can't, you can't let your livelihood get in the way of that.

02:16:27.220 Somewhere a long time ago, I said, the worst they can do is fire me.

02:16:31.340 And I just started preaching what's right from the front.

02:16:34.000 And it's like, the moment you do that all the way, it's off.

02:16:37.140 It's like, okay, I've already recognized, like, I've got another job.

02:16:40.740 I work at a barbershop.

02:16:41.800 I'll let that sustain me.

02:16:43.540 If I, you know, if, if need be completely, I'm trying to get there.

02:16:47.740 I'm trying to get to the point where I can only take a paycheck from the barbershop and

02:16:50.980 take no paycheck from the church.

02:16:52.580 That's going to make me feel better.

02:16:54.240 But my point is like, the worst you can do is get rid of me.

02:16:57.920 I need to start speaking this truth.

02:16:59.700 We need more pastors that don't let their livelihood and money strong arm them into getting away

02:17:07.300 from what we're really supposed to be doing as the church and give them what their itching

02:17:11.840 ears desire.

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02:17:42.860 It's tough because everybody's in expectation of living the American dream.

02:17:47.180 And it does beg the question, should all the pastors in America be living the American dream?

02:17:51.720 I don't know.

02:17:52.580 I don't know if they should, man.

02:17:53.980 If our message is that, hey, man, eternity's at stake and that's the most important thing

02:17:57.820 in the temporary realm is not important, but then the world especially, but even the confessing

02:18:02.740 church looks at the pastor and goes, well, it sure seems like he loves the stuff of the

02:18:06.540 temporary realm.

02:18:07.420 He's living the American dream just like everybody else.

02:18:10.280 Then we end up in this situation where the world is saying, why would I believe the church?

02:18:14.540 The church doesn't even believe what it's saying.

02:18:16.600 That's true, but I don't think there's not much merit in being poor.

02:18:20.960 I think if you're being, this is just me.

02:18:23.420 Yeah, poverty is a curse.

02:18:24.800 Amen.

02:18:25.140 I'm not saying live in poverty. 1.00

02:18:26.560 Not just a curse, but it's like people who embrace that are stupid. 1.00

02:18:28.980 Money is a thing that you can get. 1.00

02:18:31.040 Everybody has talents.

02:18:32.240 Everybody has ability to do something.

02:18:34.320 But to Zach's point, you can end up in a really sketched situation.

02:18:39.240 For sure.

02:18:39.860 You're dependent on it like that.

02:18:40.940 But in today's day and age, Matt, there's a way.

02:18:43.960 Like these, like Zach, Matthew.

02:18:46.960 Matt's end.

02:18:48.180 Zach has a podcast that he stopped six months ago, but he has a talent of talking to people.

02:18:53.220 He should still be doing it, yeah.

02:18:54.620 He should still be doing it.

02:18:55.120 Yeah, and this right here is an avenue to get yourself out of that system. 1.00

02:19:01.560 And if idiots like me and David could figure out a way to build this to what it is. 1.00

02:19:05.460 Now we can all agree. 1.00

02:19:06.680 So what do you agree with?

02:19:08.660 You know what?

02:19:09.040 I'm not going to address that.

02:19:10.520 But I think the point is that we have people within the system.

02:19:14.920 And Pastor Jose, before he left the church, he's like, oh, I think I want to open up a podcast.

02:19:20.600 He wanted to use like church infrastructure to do it.

02:19:23.800 And I was like, that's an interesting idea because what's going to happen there is, well, I mean, it's going to be weird kind of co-owned stuff.

02:19:30.040 I don't know who really owns this.

02:19:31.340 But if you monetize this correctly and you build this correctly, you have a microphone to talk to whoever you want.

02:19:37.620 And you have freedom because you have money coming in from what you're saying.

02:19:41.180 Yeah.

02:19:41.560 And there's something about that, about the time that we live in now with like specifically what we're doing here that you can do that.

02:19:48.960 And there's really no excuse.

02:19:50.080 I mean, if you can't figure out how to do it, then there's a lot of tricks.

02:19:54.160 Talk to people who do.

02:19:56.080 And that's not bad at all.

02:19:57.740 And that might be like a very strong solution for these people that are in it.

02:20:02.680 But then also with that, I think you're going to get a lot of weirdness.

02:20:06.480 You're going to get a lot of heresy.

02:20:07.540 You're going to get strange stuff coming out of it.

02:20:10.200 So I don't know.

02:20:11.120 But that's one part of it is the preaching through the podcast model.

02:20:15.040 Is that what you're saying?

02:20:15.520 Like that's like, sorry, that's like one part of it.

02:20:20.040 But then there does need to be the real community part too, where you are meeting with real humans in real life.

02:20:26.120 Yeah.

02:20:26.380 And so people can listen to podcasts and get fed and learn the word of God that way.

02:20:30.940 A lot of people can get it that way.

02:20:32.180 But then they still need to be a part of a group that they're meeting with, that they know and love.

02:20:36.660 Like as long as I was ever not in the 501c3 system, I was still always in a Bible study.

02:20:40.820 I was still always had some group around me.

02:20:42.900 And it changed over the years.

02:20:44.980 But there was always some group that I was intimate with that entire time.

02:20:48.700 And you do need to have that.

02:20:50.020 Like the preaching and the Bible learning can really happen much more effectively through the podcast model than it can.

02:20:57.800 And not to be like, I don't know, like egotistical or braggadocious or whatever.

02:21:03.580 We were just kind of talking about like you're in this system and then the people go, behave this way or, right?

02:21:10.300 And before it's like, well, I'm a civilian and I'm a civilian.

02:21:13.200 But like, yeah, behave this way or I'm excommunicated from your community. 0.99

02:21:16.820 What the fuck do I care about your community? 0.99

02:21:18.660 There's 300 people here. 0.99

02:21:19.960 Maybe if it's a good day on the show, I don't even know how many people we can talk to.

02:21:24.460 So the dynamic is now reversed.

02:21:26.700 And I also I have no ties, no obligatory ties to you monetarily.

02:21:30.700 I can come.

02:21:31.460 I can say what I want.

02:21:32.480 I have this freedom.

02:21:33.640 I also should be careful with what I'm saying.

02:21:35.440 But like somebody like Matt, that is going to go and give a message on a platform like this and reach all these people.

02:21:41.080 If you go to a church, you're an asset to that church, not just an asset, but you're also somebody that they should be looking at and going, oh, I better not excommunicate this guy.

02:21:53.440 I better I kind of maybe I should look at what he's doing because he's garnered quite an audience here and he must be doing something correct.

02:21:59.940 If they're smart, if they're not smart, they might want to push you out because you're actually giving good criticisms of the church.

02:22:07.280 But do you see the dynamic there?

02:22:09.200 And I'm not saying anything that's not that's just what it is.

02:22:12.480 That's the existing dynamic of what is happening here.

02:22:15.720 And I think that that does change that that changes the church.

02:22:19.720 Maybe that's how it changes.

02:22:20.800 Yeah. Yeah. Going out and doing it like I didn't get a committee together to help me open a Christian library.

02:22:26.840 We just did it. We didn't we didn't get we didn't ask for donations.

02:22:30.380 We didn't like try to get a bunch of people behind us to help us do it.

02:22:34.200 It was just like, OK, we are the church.

02:22:36.860 Like, what should we be doing?

02:22:38.140 And my wife and I came up with the idea to do that, which doesn't which doesn't mean that other people should be doing that.

02:22:43.340 But you didn't change you don't change the church from your own location.

02:22:47.280 Now, when you're doing straight Bible and then you're getting messages and emails or whatever about like, yo, you just you just kind of like tore this down scripturally.

02:22:56.940 Not tore it down. But like what you said scripturally is like, damn. 0.99

02:23:00.280 Well, that's the goal with straight Bible, right? 0.99

02:23:02.620 Is you just go Bible verse by Bible verse by Bible verse to where when people are arguing and disagreeing with you in the comments, you're like, yo, you're disagreeing with the Bible because I didn't go on some tangent about something.

02:23:13.140 I'm just saying maybe this maybe this is the tool like the tools presented to us now.

02:23:16.900 Like, it's a little bit different, like Leonard Ravenhill and all these other guys, like they didn't necessarily have this tool.

02:23:21.920 This is a tool that's very and this is a this is still low level stuff.

02:23:25.800 This show is like not huge.

02:23:29.200 Imagine you're crushing, dude.

02:23:30.860 I don't I wouldn't say it's not.

02:23:32.240 You guys are on the up and up.

02:23:34.420 It's like going up.

02:23:35.540 We're at the we're at the bottom of it.

02:23:37.260 But I'm saying like you you double you triple you 10 X.

02:23:39.820 This is not unheard of.

02:23:41.200 What happens to that?

02:23:42.460 What happens to what Matt is saying?

02:23:44.240 Like that gets heard.

02:23:45.160 And then especially in the community, you go to a church, they're going to know that you do this.

02:23:49.060 They're going to know that you said this because it's going to be wide reaching and they're going to either have to push you away, which looks really bad for them, or they're going to have to consider what you're saying because what you're saying is right.

02:23:58.600 And maybe that's where the change to the church system comes in from like that guy that's in it.

02:24:04.140 But like now there's this weird thing like you're in it, but you kind of like you're like subverting the the the power dynamic on our head because there's a there's a progression.

02:24:14.180 You know, you're supposed to go here to here to here. 0.98

02:24:16.080 You become the youth bastard to the whatever, whatever. 0.92

02:24:18.780 This is like, no, I'm just a dude that's helping with maybe the audio. 0.99

02:24:21.880 And then I just happen to have more reach than anybody here.

02:24:25.180 That's the first thing Zach and I talked about, I think, was he was like, yo, so what do you do then?

02:24:30.040 Like, I want to reach people and I want to do my part in the kingdom and do, you know, fulfill my destiny that God made me for.

02:24:35.920 Or in you were like, how do I even do that outside the 501 C3?

02:24:41.840 And then I think you said something to the extent of like, oh, you're just like doing it.

02:24:44.880 And then God just like provided you a platform.

02:24:47.840 Right, right.

02:24:48.880 Well, see, so I mean, a lot of my conversation with you, like it didn't stem from like not knowing what I should do.

02:24:53.980 But my thing is whenever I see somebody who is like, dude, instantly I was like, he gets it.

02:24:58.620 He's real.

02:24:59.120 He's actually doing the thing.

02:25:00.520 And anytime I meet somebody like that, I want to know what they're doing and how I can also take that and add it to what I'm doing to better myself.

02:25:08.600 You know what I'm saying?

02:25:09.580 And so like, I'm out here trying to do the thing too, in a different way.

02:25:13.580 But my big thing is like where I'm really struggling right now is like turning this big ship.

02:25:18.340 It's hard to turn a big ship.

02:25:19.840 It's easy to turn a little ship, but it takes a whole lot longer to turn a big ship.

02:25:23.460 And this thing's been going since the 80s and it was a country club for a long time.

02:25:28.900 And now, now I'm seeing it shift though.

02:25:31.300 Like the climate in my church is shifting from like country club all those years ago to like a bunch of people earnestly seeking God.

02:25:38.240 Amen.

02:25:39.120 And so, but, but I'm looking at this and I'm like, but is there a better way still?

02:25:42.960 So now I'm preaching, trying to say like, Hey, look, I'm glad you're here on Sunday morning.

02:25:46.620 And I don't want you to not be because like, you want this thing and I'm here and we're all here and we're doing it.

02:25:52.120 But at the same time, it's vastly more important that you, through the rest of the week, have a community of believers that you can lean on and grow together with.

02:26:00.080 Cause you're not going to get that from me on an hour on Sunday.

02:26:02.920 And that's like, that's the realization of like the full it's holistic.

02:26:07.300 It's not like a quick answer.

02:26:09.040 It's like, like I was thinking about like, nobody wants to put in the reps.

02:26:13.520 Everybody wants to just like be in good shape tomorrow, but they don't want to go to the gym.

02:26:18.860 And it's like small group, that community, that's reps.

02:26:23.280 That's how you're growing.

02:26:24.920 You don't just get big.

02:26:26.340 You don't just look good.

02:26:27.840 We all want that on Sunday morning, but you're not going to get fed like that.

02:26:31.580 You don't just show up.

02:26:32.420 And now all of a sudden my golf game's great.

02:26:34.420 You have to go to the range.

02:26:35.960 You know what I'm saying?

02:26:36.720 And it's like, that's the community and it takes both.

02:26:40.400 And I think people are realizing that, but it's not shifting hard.

02:26:44.960 It's not shifting fast.

02:26:46.360 And that's the part where it really bogs me down, you know?

02:26:49.240 Well, because I know offense, Zach, but like, you got to be in the gym every day.

02:26:54.040 If you're cutting hair, you're not preaching the gospel to people.

02:26:56.520 And that you got, again, on the contrary, my friend, I do more preaching from behind the

02:27:03.400 chair than on a Sunday.

02:27:04.660 I probably do more for the kingdom at, at my secular job than I did in the two years

02:27:11.860 I worked full-time as a pastor.

02:27:13.600 I mean that dude.

02:27:14.960 That's a problem.

02:27:16.820 That's a, that's a huge problem.

02:27:18.240 Well, how do you, I don't know, man.

02:27:19.620 Like, how do you, how do you talk to even more people though?

02:27:23.140 How do you, how do you make a living for yourself doing that?

02:27:26.620 That's, this is the tricky part because you do need money to survive.

02:27:29.480 And then if this is your job, if you're moving, I'm fine.

02:27:32.960 I'm good.

02:27:33.580 I'm getting there.

02:27:34.400 I'll be fine.

02:27:35.100 I got barbering.

02:27:35.860 I'm good, dude.

02:27:36.680 Like, I'm not worried about money.

02:27:39.720 Like there are guys that don't have that and they do have to ask that question.

02:27:43.580 I don't.

02:27:44.760 But like, that is real.

02:27:46.560 Like, what are you going to do when you've banked your whole life?

02:27:49.320 Like, we've got all these guys coming up through, as Matt says, cemetery school, which

02:27:52.900 is hilarious.

02:27:53.440 And they're being told like, this is going to be your career.

02:27:56.340 And it's like, yeah, but like, if the church keeps declining at the rate that it is given

02:28:01.700 the blip up from like a Trump presidency and the death of Charlie Kirk, which has affected

02:28:09.240 the church, but still the question remains, who's going to disciple those people?

02:28:13.100 Or is this just going to be a quick fad that's over?

02:28:15.300 Cause that's a real question.

02:28:16.560 Um, but like, we got all these guys, it's like, your life is going to be based on you

02:28:23.000 being a pastor.

02:28:23.900 And it's like, maybe we should stop telling people that maybe we should start like pushing

02:28:28.220 up at least a bi-vocational way of this.

02:28:31.600 Maybe we should start saying like, Hey, like, or at least asking the question, would you still

02:28:36.240 pastor people if you weren't getting paid to do it?

02:28:38.500 Because I bet there's a whole lot of guys today that would say no.

02:28:41.720 And I think, I mean, historically there's been such things as like a parsonage, right?

02:28:45.140 Where like the pastor was taken care of.

02:28:46.780 He had a home maybe on the church property and it wasn't a mansion, right?

02:28:51.920 It wasn't, he didn't have a runway for his airplanes and stuff, but he had a humble little

02:28:55.900 abode for him and his family.

02:28:58.000 And he had enough money to kind of like do his thing, but he wasn't a wealthy man.

02:29:02.400 He wasn't living the American dream.

02:29:04.800 But I think, yeah, the weird thing about, uh, to go through the cemetery school system

02:29:08.800 and become like a pastor today is just like, you're in high school.

02:29:12.640 Everybody starts asking you, Hey, what are you going to do when you grow up?

02:29:14.920 And some kids are like, man, I'm going to college.

02:29:17.080 Some kids are like, I'm going to go into a trade.

02:29:19.960 Other kids are like, I'm going in the military.

02:29:22.200 And then this, under that kind of pattern, under that kind of model, under that kind of

02:29:27.600 mindset, some kids are like, well, I'll be a pastor.

02:29:30.920 I'm going to, I'm going to do a pastor.

02:29:31.940 It's not necessarily like this great calling of their life or like this great, meaningful

02:29:36.860 thing.

02:29:37.220 It's just, they have to pick a career.

02:29:38.900 And some people pick that as a career within the American system.

02:29:42.260 Um, and that's why I like the, um, American superstructure that kind of like imposes itself

02:29:47.100 on the American church culture.

02:29:49.360 Like we've just, we somehow got to get out from under that and just get like a straight

02:29:52.940 biblical, uh, eternal model and an eternal mindset.

02:29:57.140 And like people should be comfortable.

02:29:59.320 Like, I think this is what you're saying is saying like, yeah, I'm going to be a preacher

02:30:02.200 and whatever money I make for it or whatever, I'm just going to trust God.

02:30:07.340 I'm going to trust God.

02:30:08.480 Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness.

02:30:10.620 And then all that clothing and all that food and all that shelter and all the basic necessities

02:30:15.280 you need will be added to you.

02:30:17.000 Right?

02:30:17.320 Like first you do the thing, worry about the money later.

02:30:21.560 It'll be there.

02:30:22.260 God's got you.

02:30:22.980 Even if that's by his people taking care of you.

02:30:25.240 But it's sort of like, I've heard you guys say this, like, you know, you just trust the

02:30:28.380 system and the money will come kind of thing.

02:30:29.920 It's the same thing.

02:30:31.100 Like do what's, and I'm not saying like, you're going to be wealthy.

02:30:33.940 I'm saying God will take care of you and you will, you're not going to die.

02:30:37.420 Like, and well, and maybe you will, you know, maybe you're going to be martyred.

02:30:40.800 Like maybe you will. 0.98

02:30:42.480 Maybe you'll lose your head.

02:30:44.040 Would you still preach if you can't live the American dream doing it?

02:30:47.300 Right.

02:30:47.640 And if the answer is no, then don't sign up for it.

02:30:50.440 Right.

02:30:51.020 And if BlackRock keeps buying all of the housing, none of us are going to be living the American

02:30:55.040 dream soon.

02:30:55.640 So, hey, but you know, whatever.

02:30:56.840 That'll be everybody's shared problem.

02:30:58.680 I don't know.

02:30:59.400 I also have a problem.

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02:31:30.500 And maybe I got a problem with that because it's like, I just feel like they're saying 0.81

02:31:34.940 like you should be not wealthy is ridiculous to me.

02:31:41.940 It's just where are your priorities? 0.90

02:31:43.840 Yeah.

02:31:44.140 I mean, dude, look at, look at Job.

02:31:45.940 Look at Job and Abraham biblically.

02:31:47.660 They're wealthy, dude.

02:31:48.680 But they knew what to do with it.

02:31:50.360 Okay.

02:31:50.780 My dad, my dad would get hit with like something terrible every like 10 years.

02:31:55.020 Like he'd start to get a leg up.

02:31:57.440 And then like, like my dad owned like 11 rental properties in my hometown and he was doing

02:32:02.020 pretty good.

02:32:02.580 And then all of a sudden they raised taxes and he gets hit with like 70 grand out of nowhere

02:32:06.860 that he didn't know was coming.

02:32:08.120 Well, no more of that.

02:32:09.180 He starts doing pretty good.

02:32:10.920 We buy a house.

02:32:11.740 All of a sudden he gets a triple bypass surgery because he has heart problems and he can't

02:32:17.360 take, he can't, he has to pay it all out of pocket because he doesn't have insurance.

02:32:21.340 He gets hit.

02:32:22.640 We have a fire and we lose everything.

02:32:24.580 Like three, four years later, our house and our business burn at the exact same time.

02:32:28.580 He loses everything.

02:32:29.620 And he looks at me one day and he says, Zach, like, why won't God just let me get a leg up?

02:32:36.000 Like every time I start to do well, he knocks me back down a few steps.

02:32:39.700 And I said, have you ever considered that God doesn't like who you would be if you had

02:32:43.680 a lot of money?

02:32:45.420 That's an interesting thought.

02:32:46.840 That's another idea about what money is and how people hold onto it or how they're so eager

02:32:52.280 to get it.

02:32:52.800 And it's like, no, like this, I say it all the time, say to my kids, it's a thing that

02:32:57.200 you can get, but you have to, it's a thing that you use to do more of what you want to 0.74

02:33:02.180 do, not something to like live lavishly or like be ridiculous.

02:33:06.020 Well, I think that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not to trigger the chat, but they're like

02:33:11.440 a great, they're a great model.

02:33:14.460 And that they're like the wealthiest dudes on the planet, you could argue.

02:33:17.700 And they live in tents.

02:33:18.600 This is another thing too.

02:33:19.560 Well, not just, not just that, but like the wealthiest dudes on the planet.

02:33:22.680 If somebody came up to me with advice, with life advice, and you're poor, I'm gonna be

02:33:27.940 like, yo, good luck.

02:33:29.780 I'm not listening to you because you haven't even gotten off of, I know, I understand that,

02:33:34.780 but you haven't gotten past first base.

02:33:36.560 Yeah, you love money.

02:33:37.240 Most people, no, it's not about loving money, but it's like, if this is a basic thing and

02:33:41.260 you can't figure this basic thing out and, you know, maybe some people say, well, you

02:33:45.100 know, I've been doing this or that, or I can't figure it out or don't make it a priority.

02:33:49.200 Most people can't figure it out and they still want to preach to you.

02:33:52.000 But top, I got to push back on what you just said, man.

02:33:54.180 Yeah, he's really nasty.

02:33:55.200 Well, because like, but you do take advice from a poor man every day, every time you

02:34:01.100 open your Bible, because Jesus stepped down and made himself a servant.

02:34:05.120 Like he made himself a nomad.

02:34:07.660 He's a king.

02:34:08.620 He's a king in heaven.

02:34:09.700 And he came down here.

02:34:10.640 Sure.

02:34:11.040 But this is like, all right, so this is monetarily poor.

02:34:13.880 These people are not kings.

02:34:15.020 These people are people.

02:34:16.480 I'm just saying, if you can't figure out some basic stuff, good luck talking to somebody

02:34:21.060 that doesn't know you.

02:34:22.000 I think it's a fair point.

02:34:23.400 That's fair.

02:34:23.800 I see what you're saying.

02:34:25.020 You're saying like by worldly rules, like, like, I'm not going to see you as I see that.

02:34:29.160 I get that.

02:34:29.680 I get that.

02:34:30.000 And listen, I'm not even necessarily talking about myself.

02:34:32.180 Like I'll sit and I'll talk with people about that.

02:34:33.820 But I'm talking about like when I'm thinking about in general, the person just walking by

02:34:38.100 a fat person gives you health advice on what to eat.

02:34:41.400 Okay.

02:34:42.540 You know?

02:34:43.280 No, absolutely not.

02:34:45.420 It's the same thing.

02:34:46.540 You're going to give me advice on how to live when you can't figure out how to live yourself.

02:34:50.360 That happened to me all the time during COVID.

02:34:52.640 It just seemed like it was always fat people like reprimanding me and telling me how to

02:34:56.940 live a healthier time during COVID.

02:34:57.960 Somebody with a mask that's telling you how to stay safe.

02:35:00.960 Like, okay.

02:35:01.460 Like what is happening right now?

02:35:03.120 So I, but I, so being wealthy, it's another tricky conversation, right?

02:35:06.920 Cause I'm like, I'm not saying chase all the things of the world, but I'm saying like,

02:35:10.420 Hey, you know, figure out how to do stuff in the world to clean your room before you

02:35:14.160 go out there and change the world.

02:35:15.380 And I feel like that's a little bit of your room.

02:35:16.860 If you can figure that out, we can talk to people.

02:35:19.400 Well, and I think there is a element of God qualifying men in the natural realm before

02:35:23.600 you with natural authority, before you trust them with spirit realm, spiritual authority.

02:35:28.460 There's, I think there's an element of that, but I just, I don't know.

02:35:31.620 Sometimes it's the opposite though, too.

02:35:33.080 Like when Jesus sends out the disciples, the first time he sends them out, he sends them 0.93

02:35:36.660 out with nothing.

02:35:37.400 He doesn't let them take a sword.

02:35:38.500 He doesn't let them take anything, but like the clothes on their back.

02:35:41.640 And he's teaching them reliance on God.

02:35:43.620 The second time he sends them out, he sends them out with money, with a sword, with all

02:35:47.720 the stuff, because they learned how to do it without the stuff.

02:35:51.260 And then they can be trusted with the stuff.

02:35:53.740 And I think it happens that way.

02:35:54.600 I don't disagree with what you just said, Matt.

02:35:56.200 Matt, I think it happens both ways, I guess is what I'm saying.

02:35:58.760 Well, I think it probably happens the first way when you're 17, 18. 0.99

02:36:01.680 You should be working shit jobs at McDonald's and then you should figure it out. 0.98

02:36:04.520 Well, those guys are a good example too. 0.99

02:36:06.220 They were all working men that had proved themselves in the natural realm.

02:36:09.420 And now they can be trusted with some spiritual authority.

02:36:12.180 Amen.

02:36:12.520 Where it's like, that's what you're talking about with the average pastor, bro.

02:36:15.040 They've been a pastor.

02:36:15.860 They've never worked in the real world.

02:36:17.340 They don't even know.

02:36:18.600 So that's another weird thing is like, how do they relate to the people in their congregation?

02:36:22.740 Yeah.

02:36:23.040 If they haven't raised families, like that's a huge thing, bro.

02:36:25.700 You got a pastor.

02:36:26.400 He hasn't raised kids into adulthood yet, but you're still, you still have little kids.

02:36:31.100 Like there's still so many trials you're going to go through personally.

02:36:34.020 It just puts you in a weird spot to be preaching to, uh, to people that have been through that.

02:36:39.160 It's just, there's a lot.

02:36:40.560 People trying to meet you that haven't been refined.

02:36:42.880 Right.

02:36:42.980 Once again, I don't disagree, but then you do have issues with like, you know, Paul, you know, saying like, not everyone should marry.

02:36:50.080 And like Paul himself being single, even though we might think like he might've been married at some point, Paul is giving marriage advice.

02:36:57.660 Paul is giving advice on kids.

02:36:59.180 Like, and so there's some level of it where it's like, when I'm just speaking from the word of God, that's one thing.

02:37:04.000 When I'm speaking from personal experience and I don't have it.

02:37:07.280 Yeah.

02:37:07.500 I don't carry weight with you.

02:37:08.560 So I think it's both idea that, you know, one guy with the mic is responsible for everything.

02:37:14.220 Right.

02:37:14.640 Is there a place for young men who are clearly called to God and can preach and have young families, a role in the church?

02:37:20.260 A hundred percent.

02:37:21.040 Nobody's saying, no, I'm just saying this is another one of the dangers where you got one guy in charge.

02:37:24.620 Amen.

02:37:25.020 Amen, dude.

02:37:26.160 The other day, uh, I'm going to, we got to wrap it.

02:37:29.120 David's getting nervous.

02:37:30.000 But no, um, the other day, he'll be fine.

02:37:32.760 I had called Matt yet.

02:37:33.800 The hot dogs wore off and we, we were talking about, uh, stereotypes.

02:37:37.100 We were just talking about stereotypes and these are not necessarily good things most

02:37:42.960 of the time, but you use them to survive in a way, right?

02:37:46.620 Like in this earthly realm, like you kind of like, well, you'll prejudge a situation and

02:37:50.060 that'll keep you for the most part, not just safe, but like, it'll keep you kind of like

02:37:54.540 on the, the right side of things.

02:37:56.720 Pattern recognition.

02:37:57.640 Pattern.

02:37:58.060 And I, and I know this gets into weird territory, but that's, this is part of the pattern recognition.

02:38:02.060 Can you get very good advice from a poor person?

02:38:05.640 Yeah.

02:38:06.420 There are outliers, but generalities.

02:38:08.440 Yeah.

02:38:08.700 The generality is, is it the usual?

02:38:11.280 Well, maybe not about money, but maybe about some other stuff.

02:38:15.020 Yeah.

02:38:15.560 But bridges to sleep under which cats are safe to eat.

02:38:19.240 Or maybe even about money.

02:38:20.600 If they talk to you about the mistakes they made that that that's what caused them.

02:38:23.760 I also want to, yeah, that's true.

02:38:25.040 I want to apologize.

02:38:25.900 Guys, I, when I was talking about the, this is nice, shut up, man.

02:38:30.240 When I was talking about the barbershop thing, it's not, I'm not trying to like knock you

02:38:33.180 or anything.

02:38:33.480 I'm just saying like, no, not at all, dude.

02:38:35.500 Yeah.

02:38:35.720 I just, I wish I'd rather see somebody like you doing the thing all the time, um, rather

02:38:43.980 than something else.

02:38:45.240 But you know, if you're cutting hair and you are doing that thing too, I didn't mean to

02:38:48.660 like, well, no, no, no, no, it's fair.

02:38:50.380 That's totally fair, man.

02:38:51.560 I mean, look, cause to your point, like my buddies that work for like Eli Lilly, they

02:38:56.580 can't do what I do.

02:38:57.620 I'm just in a position where at work I can do that.

02:39:00.540 Like if you work for a major corporation, you're talking about Jesus, you're probably

02:39:03.860 fired.

02:39:04.480 You know what I mean?

02:39:05.020 Like I'm in a position where I can preach from behind a chair all day and ain't nobody

02:39:09.420 firing me because my boss is a Christian. 0.99

02:39:11.120 You know what I mean?

02:39:12.300 But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what job you lose.

02:39:16.160 That's the thing about the great commission is there's no bar for entry.

02:39:20.500 It's where you are at the moment.

02:39:23.900 But it, it, for me, it just pains me.

02:39:26.300 Like somebody like an Ed Mabry, I mean, Matt, you and Matt, I guess have this similar occupations

02:39:31.220 where you're kind of, you could do this podcast thing too.

02:39:33.420 And then you can talk to people in real life.

02:39:34.940 That's rare in most, most occupations, but Ed Mabry is doing something that's not related

02:39:41.040 to what he's doing.

02:39:41.640 And I'm like, this guy should be doing this all day, every day.

02:39:45.820 Yeah.

02:39:46.180 And he would, but he has to do this other thing.

02:39:48.620 I'm like, he will, I mean, it looks like his is just going to take a little time to

02:39:52.280 develop.

02:39:52.900 I think so.

02:39:53.200 I think he will ultimately.

02:39:54.180 That's just what I meant by it.

02:39:55.260 I wasn't trying to take it.

02:39:56.340 Like, like, no, I took zero, zero offense to that.

02:39:59.700 I, this is wild.

02:40:01.300 You guys are apologizing to me after you raked me over the coals so hard.

02:40:05.300 And my story, I think his story was great.

02:40:09.200 I have like these glimmers of remembrance, but I think you were, you were cool on the story.

02:40:13.420 It was my shameless plug for my podcast that I wasn't even trying to plug.

02:40:17.640 I have to say that.

02:40:18.980 No, because I already, he doesn't even do it anymore.

02:40:21.820 We already set it down.

02:40:22.780 We already set it down.

02:40:23.960 I wasn't trying to plug it.

02:40:25.860 But, but yeah.

02:40:27.320 Yeah.

02:40:27.620 Hey, okay.

02:40:28.180 So like, not to keep you guys any longer, but I do have to say, if you are ever interested

02:40:32.380 to talk to an Indiana resident about some weird stuff around here, I would be totally interested

02:40:37.260 in talking about that.

02:40:38.260 Oh yeah?

02:40:38.660 But just let me.

02:40:39.960 Some, some, but there's, there's dude, there's a lot of tunnel stuff around here.

02:40:45.240 And my buddy Mike has heard some, like he had some weird prophecy stuff spoken about

02:40:50.920 Indiana from, from Ireland, India, uh, Britain, like all these places know that there's like

02:40:58.720 spiritual stronghold stuff going on in Indiana.

02:41:00.880 And I don't know how they know this or why they're talking about it, but it just keeps

02:41:05.100 coming up.

02:41:05.620 And then you guys brought it up and blew my mind.

02:41:08.680 So I am, I am intrigued to, to hear more about that in the future.

02:41:14.580 Well, you come here.

02:41:15.500 Well, we'll have you back on again.

02:41:16.660 We'll hit that.

02:41:17.340 We, you know, something interesting.

02:41:18.780 You're the second guest today, uh, today that we had that is in Indiana.

02:41:23.340 That is interesting.

02:41:23.940 Yeah.

02:41:24.120 Where are they from?

02:41:25.680 Indiana, Indiana.

02:41:26.760 Okay.

02:41:27.340 I don't know.

02:41:28.020 I don't know where the heck, uh, they're in Indiana.

02:41:29.940 Yeah.

02:41:30.160 Wes is in Indiana and so are you.

02:41:32.080 So it's just odd.

02:41:33.200 Wesley, uh, he's, he's the guy that worked on the, uh, the Meadow project with Tony

02:41:37.780 Merkel.

02:41:38.120 He's, he used to work with, uh, with Tim cast.

02:41:40.660 He's out in Indiana.

02:41:41.940 Oh, really?

02:41:42.580 Yeah.

02:41:42.980 He'll hold a lot of those sentiments.

02:41:44.300 Like, yeah, it's a really weird place, but I mean, and then we have our, our buddy,

02:41:48.540 uh, Colin who's out in Indiana, but yeah, the cave systems, uh, the weird spiritual stronghold

02:41:54.580 that's going on there.

02:41:55.480 Do you, do you know the tunnel systems built under Indianapolis?

02:41:59.260 Well, so I wonder, is it built or is it, is it a remnant of, or not a remnant, but an

02:42:03.600 extension of, uh, the Appalachia cave system?

02:42:06.800 Cause I don't know that cave system does stretch out to the West and it ends somewhere around,

02:42:11.920 uh, what's the one that's to the left of Indiana.

02:42:14.080 If you're looking at the map, uh, Illinois, Illinois, it ends in Illinois.

02:42:18.600 Um, and then of course, you know, there's that whole thing with the garden of the gods.

02:42:22.760 There's something going on out there.

02:42:24.320 I would love to, but I think it's a little bit too adventurous for, for the taste of my,

02:42:29.380 my co-hosts here, uh, the both of them, but I want to go to these cave systems and I want

02:42:34.000 to, I want to try to understand what's going on there.

02:42:37.300 You want to do a documentary we will never release?

02:42:39.420 Oh, no, I don't want to do a doc.

02:42:41.260 We need a documentarian who's like, yeah, I just do it for the love of the game play.

02:42:44.840 Oh man.

02:42:45.740 Uh, but yeah, I, we'd love to have to have you back to talk about that.

02:42:48.260 Cause it's a fascinating place.

02:42:49.800 Yeah.

02:42:50.180 I mean, I can't, I can't talk too much to cave stuff, but I I've got some, there's some

02:42:55.040 other crazy stuff going on in Indiana.

02:42:56.740 Uh, just little things, but I don't know how it all connects, but yeah, I mean, may not

02:43:00.700 make for a great show, but it could be interesting if you guys ever want to talk again.

02:43:03.920 That's cool.

02:43:04.640 If not, all right.

02:43:05.780 Well, this is a, it's been a great episode, man.

02:43:07.660 I appreciate it.

02:43:08.760 It just so happens that a lot of the things that are kind of on our mind end up just rolling

02:43:13.240 into the next episode that we do.

02:43:15.440 And, uh, I think this is an important conversation that, you know, I hope that I personally hope

02:43:20.720 you continue your podcast because whether it's at the church or it's at the barbershop or

02:43:25.320 it's, or it's, you know, on this podcast, um, that that's what the, the job is.

02:43:30.860 The job is, is making disciples of men and it's just another platform from which to do

02:43:34.500 it.

02:43:35.000 And you never know what happens with, uh, with salty saints.

02:43:38.380 You might just be one episode where the thing catches fire and all of a sudden you realize

02:43:42.180 you're, you're talking to huge people and you're winning over souls for the kingdom of

02:43:46.740 God.

02:43:47.040 And I mean, that's, I'll be quick, but like some of what we ran into, we were actually,

02:43:52.260 we were on, uh, life audio, which is a, they're, they're owned by, uh, Salem media, which is

02:44:00.640 like what Charlie Kirk's podcast was on.

02:44:03.980 Um, and like, we just ran into some things where like, they wanted us to treat it like

02:44:08.120 a business.

02:44:08.580 They wanted us to be all in.

02:44:10.040 And we were like, Hey, we're pastors.

02:44:12.680 This is a, this is an outlet for us.

02:44:15.040 This isn't like, we're not trying to make a business out of this right now.

02:44:18.140 And so we just never really pursued it in that way, but I, I have been interested to

02:44:22.280 see what could come of that.

02:44:23.280 And I might do more.

02:44:24.560 I might shift the vision of it a little bit.

02:44:26.640 It was getting a little stale on the direction we were going, but yeah, I appreciate it.

02:44:31.720 Well, even in this show, uh, I can guarantee you there's somebody out there who this episode

02:44:36.360 spoke directly to, and this is going to help them in their journey, um, and their relationship

02:44:41.880 and their walk with God.

02:44:43.120 And it's, it's the same thing, man.

02:44:44.780 It's just a matter of, uh, of, uh, you know, not to put it in such crude terms, but volume

02:44:49.840 it's the, the, what are you putting out?

02:44:51.720 You're putting out information that helps people develop a closer relationship with God, put

02:44:56.960 out more of it, keep doing more of it, whether it's at the barbershop, whether it's at your

02:45:01.200 church or whether it's, it's online.

02:45:03.100 I mean, you know, the good news is it's already set up a salty saints is already there.

02:45:06.540 You know, you've already got this thing established.

02:45:07.940 You could hop right back in it and do it.

02:45:09.800 And who knows, even if every episode only touched one person, isn't it worth it?

02:45:13.640 Well, it is, it is a business, you know, yeah, it's just the nature of, if you want

02:45:20.940 it to be something, then you're going to have to take it serious.

02:45:24.220 But I think it's something to take serious.

02:45:26.020 I think, and some of that here, Papa Steve says, ask God.

02:45:29.460 Yeah, dude, pray on it.

02:45:30.960 Amen.

02:45:31.240 Amen.

02:45:32.880 A lot of it just boils down to bandwidth.

02:45:35.560 Like it is a lot.

02:45:37.060 It is a lot.

02:45:37.700 And man, like being a pastor alone, a lot of bandwidth, working a full-time job, a lot

02:45:43.320 of bandwidth, you know, like, and so it's just like, it's hard to balance all of it, but,

02:45:47.580 um, yeah, I, I'll, uh, I'll consider that heavily.

02:45:50.960 How about that?

02:45:51.580 And I will, I will pray about it.

02:45:53.600 So, all right.

02:45:55.220 Well, I think that's a good place to, uh, to land it.

02:45:57.720 Thank you, Zach.

02:45:58.560 I appreciate the conversation, man.

02:46:00.040 I appreciate the time.

02:46:01.020 Yeah.

02:46:01.260 I appreciate you guys having me and, uh, talking about this, man.

02:46:04.160 This was great.

02:46:04.900 We will do it.

02:46:05.620 We'll do something again.

02:46:06.460 We'll figure out something, uh, fun.

02:46:08.220 Maybe Matt will sit in it, but until next time, guys, don't forget to obey, submit and

02:46:12.980 comply, we'll see you next time.

02:46:14.520 They bred with daughters of men, and they will do it again. 1.00

02:46:23.560 The end is written in the book, in the pages they foresaw.

02:46:31.540 Death squad. 0.81

02:46:35.120 Death squad. 1.00

02:46:39.220 Death squad. 0.99

02:46:40.880 When the last

02:46:55.280 trumpet sounds

Nephilim Death Squad - January 12, 2026

The 501c3 System w⧸ Zack Killey of Salty Saints Podcast

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