Dr. Douglas Hamp is a Christian author, speaker, and author of three books, Corrupting the Image, 1, 2, and 3. He is also the host of Straight Bible and Merchant of Brown Water. In this episode, Dr. Hamp talks about what it means to be a Christian and why it's important to have a relationship with God.
00:35:11.640You know, I don't know exactly what it looks like, but it's something akin to that where there the other dimension is simply sitting on top of us.
00:35:20.180And in the book Flatland, this is where Abbott, the author of that, he does an amazing job of kind of constructing this two-dimensional reality.
00:35:32.740But right over it is, of course, the three-dimensional world.
00:35:36.180Well, we're in a three-dimensional four-if-you-count time.
00:35:39.080We can't see the other dimension that sits right on top of us.
00:35:43.560So it's not so much that it's far and away.
00:36:10.380This topic just came up, actually, on a recent episode where we talked about, like, the two kings, six, where Elisha and his servant goes out in the morning.
00:36:59.540And this is something that isn't, like, confirmed.
00:37:01.840It's really, I suppose, conspiracy theory.
00:37:03.560But the idea was that they were using Dyssinian glass to come up with early versions of night vision or new versions of night vision.
00:37:10.780But the soldiers were allegedly using this new implementation and perceiving what looked to be demons all over the battleground.
00:37:19.740And you could imagine that if demons are really out there feeding off of this negative energy, the sorrow, the despair, the anger, they would be on a war, on a battlefront.
00:37:30.660And so, you know, that obviously they had to pull that technology and make some adaptations.
00:37:35.800But it's fascinating because that's an anecdotal conspiracy story that on its own is kind of, you know, you shrug your shoulders at it.
00:37:43.460But in conjunction with what Matt just said, the story of Elisha, or Elisha, that is really fascinating.
00:37:51.500It's, you know, these things pile up and they create, you know, narratives.
00:37:55.440And you go, well, that seems to be bolstering the idea that right laid over our own reality is this other one that's imperceivable.
00:38:02.640But like you said, if we had the correct instrumentation, and I guess they may have briefly in Dicinian glass, you might see a thing or two.
00:38:09.540You might not be too pumped about it, though.
00:39:46.600That would be great if you could bring that image up.
00:39:48.520But that's where I sit these days now, where it's like, you know, all of these, you know, kind of religions of antiquity talk about very similar things.
00:39:56.120The Bible gets the nature of these things correct.
00:39:59.720And this is where I depart from people who say things like, these are strictly symbolic.
00:40:07.180I do think they are very, very material.
00:42:09.020I mean, well, these things seem to, I mean, you know, it's, you might assume that they exist outside of the confines of time as we understand it.
00:42:17.220And so if they do exist in any meaningful way, and they're not affected by time in the way that we're affected, it would seem that if you could perceive them, you might perceive them the same back then as you perceive them now.
00:42:29.140I think this is the same entity that the Bledsoe's are talking about when they're talking about the divine feminine or the goddess, this entity that's revealing itself to Chris Bledsoe, who effectively is an abductee victim.
00:42:42.340And he identifies it as Hathor or Mother Mary, but it goes by other names, many other names, Ishtar, you know, being one of them.
00:42:51.000If that truly is the same entity, then it's the same entity that you just showed us now.
00:42:54.820And I happen to think, and, you know, on this show, we go into some highly improvable and speculative concepts.
00:43:02.000But when you have the idea of a Jack Parsons and an L. Ron Hubbard in the deserts summoning in an entity called Babylon, that is a female entity.
00:43:15.140I think it's all the same thing, and I think it's going to play a crucial role in this coming deception.
00:43:23.100And I think it's going to, you know, it's beyond me to try to define and lay out the parameters of how this thing is going to unfold.
00:43:29.780But it seems to be that this entity, not symbolic, is a material entity.
00:43:34.900I can't describe to you the materials it's made out of, but it does exist in some real tangible way that's been perceived by people of antiquity and now currently being perceived by the Bledsoe's, is going to play a role in this big, you know, event that's going to be unfolding with disclosure and, you know, to other people.
00:43:54.960It'll be called a number of other things, but people in the new age, Gnostic belief systems, they believe this thing is coming.
00:44:02.880And I believe it's that thing that you've shown us there.
00:44:06.460And we were talking to somebody recently who actually said, it was JT Follows, JC is a great content creator.
00:44:12.140And he said that he thinks this entity is like a, like a sort of like a Lucifer, like that this entity has no problem presenting as male or female.
00:44:24.460And, you know, I thought that was an interesting concept.
00:44:27.020Once again, you know, in the intangible.
00:44:31.680Something I find really interesting is that in your new work, I see that you're dealing, you're basically putting a bullet in materialism.
00:44:37.440But you're dealing with this idea of something like physics, not necessarily being rules, but just like a set, a set of circumstances that happen.
00:44:48.580And then, and I guess, how would you, how would you describe that?
00:44:52.600But I guess my question would be, how does this reality, this world that we're in, how do you think this will affect these entities as they sort of parse through this veil
00:45:04.920and start to become a little bit more physical here when, when they approach us?
00:45:10.520What is, what are your theories on that?
00:45:12.100And is that what your book is about or am I misreading that?
00:45:16.060Well, so my new book, The Relational Universe that comes out in September, I really don't deal with, you know, demonic entities or Nephilim, any of that stuff,
00:45:25.660even though I definitely enjoy that conversation.
00:45:27.660But I wanted to get to something much more foundational, something more fundamental.
00:45:34.580Because when we start thinking about stuff, you know, the table in front of you, this book, you know, like, what is this actually made of?
00:46:00.260And for a long time, it was surmised by the Greeks who came up with that idea.
00:46:05.600And then it carried on until the 18, you know, late 1800s that, yeah, atoms are the most basic building blocks that we have.
00:46:16.400And so it was called the billiard ball model of the universe.
00:46:21.080In other words, that there's tiny little discrete bits, not even bits isn't the right word, but let's call them particles, little things of stuff.
00:46:30.380And you put, if you have enough understanding of how material physics works, then you can kind of figure everything out.
00:46:38.080And that was, you know, the billiard ball or the clockwork understanding of it.
00:46:45.920Quantum physics turned everything on its head.
00:46:47.900And ironically, Albert Einstein, who wrote some important papers leading up to the real true discovery of quantum physics, he could not actually accept it.
00:47:02.580He called some of the implications of quantum physics, specifically quantum entanglement, he called it spooky action at a distance because it just didn't make sense.
00:47:11.140And basically what quantum physics is, well, you know, to quote Niels Bohr, he said, if you're not thoroughly confounded by quantum physics, then you really don't understand it.
00:54:49.560Some of these passages, Hebrews 11, 3, just that everything's framed and held together by the word of God.
00:54:55.760Is that kind of wrapped up in what you're saying as well?
00:54:57.680Well, essentially, because you start looking at language itself.
00:55:02.420If you just say one word or one, you know, one phoneme, it doesn't have any meaning.
00:55:10.440It's only when you string phonemes together to make words and then you take words, string them together to make sentences and then paragraphs and then books eventually.
00:55:18.580That's when everything starts to have meaning.
00:55:22.240It has to be in relationship with something else.
01:10:46.300It's the idea of intervention where I guess people, well, I don't know, Tucker Carlson kind of said recently that America has been led to believe that, you know, the spiritual realm is not real for a very long time.
01:10:58.660And now people are starting to wake up to it.
01:11:00.120But that idea of an outside source, this intervention, that means miracles could be real.
01:11:06.980You know, a lot of people say prayers and we're like, what are we saying prayers for?
01:11:09.740We're just like, you know, thoughts and prayers, right?
01:11:23.020Like if there's an outside source, then we have to actually be keen and deal with those things or at least be aware that they exist on a very real level.
01:11:31.560I appreciate like the language that you're using as far as all these systems and programs.
01:11:40.720And it's interesting that we exist in this time where people have really fallen or taken to the idea of like a simulation theory.
01:11:48.920And it's like it is an it's an apt verbiage, all of the verbiage surrounding simulation theory and computer programs to kind of describe what we're going through.
01:12:02.580There's there's something that human language can't express.
01:12:06.080There's an understanding that we can't, given our limited experience here in this three dimensional realm, in this materialistic paradigm, in this in this physical realm.
01:12:15.120There are things that we can't quantify and there's things that we can't perceive and therefore we can't articulate.
01:12:20.480And so it's a little bit of a slippery slope.
01:12:24.060I see a lot of people that are maybe, let's say, like atheists adjacent who can get behind the idea that, well, there is maybe a perceivable code that is the backdrop.
01:12:39.040Quantum physics says that they've perceived a code that runs in the background.
01:12:43.760And it's like, you know, far be it for me to even understand what that really means.
01:12:48.500But when you hear somebody within the scientific or the mathematics community come out and say that and then us in our infinite wisdom, we go, well, I know what Grand Theft Auto is and I know what, you know, World of Warcraft is.
01:13:02.620And therefore, if you're telling me in those languages that are relatable to my experiences here, that this is like that, but at a larger scale and thereby there's a creator of the program.
01:13:15.820It's like what I'm getting at is I've seen people use this language, which I understand is applicable and brush up against the truth, but sort of miss it in the same way that we said the Bible has many of these same concepts and principles that any mythology of antiquity would have.
01:13:39.240But the Bible gets the nature of things correct.
01:13:43.960There seems to be an absence of the nature.
01:13:47.180So, in other words, you're dealing with very much the same language that maybe even somebody who's a fan of simulation theory would use, but you've not lost track of the nature of things.
01:14:13.340In earlier drafts of my book, I was really leaning into simulation theory and I decided to leave it because I think there's something much more foundational, which is what I've explained in the relational universe.
01:14:23.900But, you know, Nick Bostrom, he really popularized that whole idea back in 2005 or something that, you know, we might be living in a simulated universe.
01:14:33.220And I think it's very, it's very attractive to people because, you know, OK, so maybe we're just a game running in some kid's garage computer, you know, somewhere.
01:14:46.660That's fine because that that so-called creator doesn't seem to demand too much of us.
01:14:52.480And he's probably just like us, you know, kind of a slob and, you know, he makes all kinds of mistakes.
01:14:58.340But really what people are fighting against, the reason that they like, they sort of gravitate toward this, this simulated universe theory is that they're fighting against the caricature of the God of the Bible.
01:15:14.160And I think we're all guilty of this to some extent.
01:15:18.220You know, I have my own caricature of God that I'm trying to shed.
01:15:22.420I really want to get in touch with the real God of the Bible.
01:15:25.460And I have to let go of my own presuppositions, some of the false theology that I was taught, some of the theology that I acquired very innocently and with a good heart.
01:15:49.420And I think it's a pretty good foot in the door if you want to have a conversation with somebody because it leads you to that same place.
01:15:56.920And that's where I have this thought experiment in the middle of my book where you get to create your own universe, you know.
01:16:02.700And, you know, I don't say it's a simulated universe, but it's the same basic idea is that you're at this master console and the computer voice says, what kind of universe would you like to create?
01:16:14.020Is it more of the screensaver universe or is it the one where you create beings?
01:16:20.040They do have free choice, but only for good things, right?
01:16:29.080It'd be like you playing Mario Brothers and you can go anywhere you want and do anything you want, but you really can't jump off the cliff.
01:16:37.620You can never get swallowed by one of those mushrooms or whatever they are.
01:16:41.060You know, nothing bad can ever happen to you.
01:16:43.520So, yeah, you can decide to go right or go left, but can you really can you really experience any kind of free will or any, you know, anything that's real in that sense?
01:16:56.880And then the last option is that the truly loving universe.
01:17:01.820So I think people like the idea of the simulation theory.
01:17:06.080They like the idea that, well, there's probably a creator because certainly the God of the Bible is no good because he's all mean and mad and he likes to kill people and genocide and all this stuff, which they clearly misunderstand all this.
01:17:18.580But when, you know, if God, if you were to create a universe and you wanted to create beings in your universe, let's call them little alphas.
01:17:41.880In fact, if you give them free will, they might likely erect a giant tower and try to breach your realm and shoot you with an arrow or something crazy like that.
01:17:52.760And then you'll have to smash their tower and confuse them all because that leads to like another question.
01:17:59.780Why, why would you give that to them unless you needed it yourself?
01:18:27.800Like if you just create these robots or like, uh, I'm guessing Doug, he's not into the, uh, Calvinist or reform doctrine clearly that like, okay, then what's the point?
01:18:38.520Like if we're just, if he's just doing this thing and everything's already predetermined and nobody has free will, then what's the point?
01:18:43.440Like, what, like, what are we doing here?
01:18:45.200It's almost like this is the testing ground to see if you really love him.
01:18:48.080And he gives you that opportunity the same way we do when we have children.
01:18:51.200And there's probably also this real desire to see us grow and see us develop and, and you can't just, I mean, you know, we see people do it all the time as parents all over the world throughout history that are guilty of it.
01:19:03.160Like, you know, trying so hard to, to micromanage every aspect of their child's life only to find out that you screwed up when they become an adult and you look back at all the ways you micromanaged and you were overbearing and you were, you didn't allow them this freedom, right?
01:19:18.000This freedom to choose to even have the ability to mess up.
01:19:21.360And what it just does in the end is, is make you realize all the ways in which you as a parent screwed up.
01:19:26.280So I would imagine God is, is wiser than, than we are.
01:19:29.340And he would let us, uh, go off, build the towers, go crazy, you know, whatever.
01:20:24.080And so God was basically putting, um, you know, some, some, um, last effort, last ditch, uh, safety, uh, rails, you know, on for humanity so that we could not be completely destroyed by letting in these, these other worldly entities that would take over.
01:20:44.600They would subjugate us, you know, even more than they already are, but it would truly be a hell on earth.
01:20:50.260And so that was, again, that was love.
01:21:26.200God is love and he wants to have a relationship with us.
01:21:29.380And because relationship is inherently risky because real love requires the ability for the person that you want to love to say no to you, but that's what gives it meaning, right?
01:22:07.080And that's why God allows for malevolent beings like the, the, uh, you know, the, the demons and the fallen angels to keep doing their thing.
01:22:20.680Because eventually they're going to have no place in his kingdom.
01:22:25.220Not because that God is, is tough and stern, but it's just that they're, they're incompatible with, with this kingdom of love, this kingdom of light and, and all the glory that will be coming from it.
01:22:58.720The door, here's the key, but you can stay in your room as long as you want.
01:23:03.320You don't come and play with the rest of us.
01:23:05.500But if you, you know, anyway, so, so, you know, if you want to call that hell, the lake of fire, there's all kinds of the whole nother discussion.
01:23:28.260I just wanted to ask because you have like such a intense body of work.
01:23:33.540I assume that like the church people in the church, the modern church are, uh, are some of your main, uh, readers and you like to probably reach everybody with this, uh, which is the point of writing a book.
01:23:46.040So, but how do you think something like this, uh, with this, the relational universe book, how do you think that that's going to be perceived by, uh, like the people in church today?
01:23:56.680Do you think that they're going to understand this?
01:23:58.260Because this is like, uh, it's like black belt level stuff.
01:24:03.100And when I, when I talk to people in my church about just some of the topics that we talk on the show, like sometimes I don't, I don't feel that they really get it, but, uh, maybe it's just my, my, me doing a bad job.
01:24:16.040What, what do you think you're, uh, how do you want to see this perceived and what do you, what do you think will, will happen within the body of Christ when they read this work?
01:24:52.720Of course, you know, you know, I do think obviously that it is Jesus, but I'm trying to talk about structure and I want to show first.
01:25:01.900I want people to have a sense of awe and wonder, just like when you go into Notre Dame and you look up at that, that ceiling and you're like, wow, this is amazing.
01:25:10.460That, that's what I want people to have that sense first is like, wow, this is incredible.
01:25:15.980And then as we continue to, to look deeper and to gaze longer and say, okay, what is holding these stones up?
01:25:22.920What principles are behind this building?
01:25:27.740What is it that I can't see that's making all of this work?
01:27:07.260And if everything is made of energy, if everything that we hold, that we can touch is little energy packets, and yet energy is the byproduct of relationship.
01:27:21.100And then the Bible says that God is love.
01:27:24.560I'm hoping you're connecting all the dots here.
01:27:26.760And I want to assume that my readers are pretty intelligent, you know?
01:27:30.040So I'm not going to assume that they're, you know, they're all PhD.
01:27:46.260For me, it was really exciting to put these things together.
01:27:49.300And I hope people get very much inspired.
01:27:52.300And then there's all kinds of application.
01:27:54.800And I think, you know, in the area of business as well, that once you understand, like, why do people burn out?
01:28:01.480Why do they say, yes, I'll do it, but then they don't?
01:28:04.460It's because there's a structural issue that has to be addressed before we start, you know, beating on people and trying to get them to do this and that.
01:28:12.140Once the structure is fixed, then the rest of the stuff takes care of it, of its own.
01:28:17.120That's something we've been talking about on this show for the last couple of weeks.
01:28:22.620A lot of the same concepts kind of pop up every episode because they're on your mind.
01:28:26.520And, you know, it's the ability to take something that is complicated.
01:28:32.840You know, we're talking about the foundational building blocks of the universe.
01:28:38.500But there is always a way to package a thing and present it in its rudimentary form so that it's simple and easy to understand.
01:28:47.900And once you grasp that foundation, then there's a larger, you know, conversation that springs forth from it.
01:28:54.400But I think it is really the mark of understanding is the ability to express it in simple terms.
01:28:59.740And I think within this space, you know, we fail constantly to do that because these things are so big, so much bigger than even, you know, a podcast that's an hour and a half or two hours allows to expand on.
01:29:13.800But I like what you're saying where it's like you're not smashing people over the head with it.
01:29:18.880It's Jesus, but I think it is very important to create a thing, maybe not that, like, screams at you, it's Jesus, but if it ultimately points to Christ, right?
01:29:31.460That's kind of the thing is like, if you're laying out a bunch of concepts, and these concepts are laid out in an understandable way, and it allows the reader to come to this conclusion of, oh, wait a second, then I think that you've, you know, you've done the job aptly.
01:29:47.600But it also opens up your audience to people.
01:29:50.980You know, we have a lot of people already that are just pointing at, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but there's a lot of people doing that.
01:29:56.620But if you're going to be talking to other people that might not be perceptive to this thing, that's fantastic.
01:30:02.480And that's like, that's kind of what I want this show, what we've kind of designed this show to be, where we can do a little bit of comedy, do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and we could reach these people, maybe disaffected people, maybe people that are just, I don't know, had no interest in this stuff otherwise.
01:30:17.780But in the end of the day, kind of like, spin them around here and go, oh, put that right over there.
01:30:24.620Yeah, I mean, Jesus talks about the four kinds of soil, right?
01:30:27.560And, you know, you've got the hard pack, you've got the stony, you've got the one that never really takes root, and then you've got the good soil.
01:30:35.560And I think sometimes we've been shooting ourselves in the foot, you know, the church as a whole, where, you know, I grew up in the Baptist flavor, where we've got to get a sale today.
01:30:47.800You know, we've got to get a decision right now.
01:30:50.160Okay, before we hang up this call, I need you to say yes.
01:30:53.120And, I mean, that works with some people, but I think a lot of people have gone through that kind of experience.
01:32:02.300I'm trying to be an observer of this world.
01:32:05.040I'm trying to be a scientist in that sense, though I, you know, I'll be the first to tell you I don't have a degree in physics or any higher science.
01:32:13.100But, you know, I can be a student, and I can observe things, and I can hopefully make good arguments.
01:32:18.300I'm certainly trying, and I can quote really smart people who do, right?
01:32:22.500And so, you know, so that's what I'm trying to do.
01:32:24.980And I'm trying to say, you know, look, Mr. Atheist, I don't want you to just say, oh, I believe in God.
01:32:30.920I want to say, let's look at this thing together, and what do we both see?
01:32:35.080And I feel like if we can come to common ground with a lot of people, instead of trying to bludgeon them, trying to coerce them, to guilt them into something, because it doesn't last.
01:32:45.300And that's kind of the point of my book, is that you can force systems to hold together.
01:32:52.560I talk about a policeman and a prisoner who are handcuffed together.
01:32:58.060They might look like they're in alignment.