Off the Record - Most finance ministers fail taxpayer report card

00:00:00.000 so since we're gonna end with hockey canada maybe we should start off talking about some better

00:00:05.040 well not so much better hockey news but the oilers are still alive even though better i don't know

00:00:09.880 you guys got blown out 6-1 last game so the game card says eh that's not yeah well i heard some

00:00:16.220 people talking about like oh talking about winning game one or game two and i'm like hey it only

00:00:19.260 matters who wins the last game so uh we still got games to go listen i saw the maple leaves get

00:00:25.820 blown out 6-1 earlier in this playoffs and you saw what happened to them it's some uh strange

00:00:30.280 premonitions there and look i think i've never compared the oilers to the maple leafs again

00:00:34.580 the first round exit specialists were back to back in the stanley cup finals there's no comparison

00:00:39.340 ah well you know uh we'll get there eventually yeah places first place losers they say

00:00:47.140 that's true i remember tiger woods he's talking about like yeah second place sucks or third place

00:00:52.840 sucks worse though so you know you can always do worse yeah you can also have the perspective that

00:00:59.220 second place is the first to lose but you know the nba playoffs have been going on too noah have you

00:01:03.540 been watching them a lot yeah i know we got pacers thunder uh two small market teams so it's not

00:01:09.260 exactly a breaking record ratings records but uh i'm i'm quite enjoying it we got like a really solid

00:01:15.480 underdog story so uh you know let's go for talia's how uh tyree's halber and they're they're uh nba

00:01:22.780 twitter is uh calling him uh a terrorist they're calling him the haliband so uh yeah it's been a

00:01:29.340 pretty fun playoffs yeah it's hard enough for a canadian team to win in the nhl and there's so

00:01:35.460 many of them whereas in the nba of course there's only one canadian team so who knows when the raptors

00:01:40.880 will win again but still a lot of canadian players in the in the finals we've got benedict matherin

00:01:45.380 lou dort they're both from quebec uh andrew nemhart i saw him play when i was 10 he was like 12

00:01:49.980 so uh yeah some uh some great canadian talent there i think montreal could ever get a team

00:01:55.860 uh i don't think basketball is uh very popular in quebec but uh you know vancouver they had a team and

00:02:04.480 it didn't really work out well so i don't know maybe maybe calgary is a market that could

00:02:08.780 sustain basketball who knows they've been going for montreal to get their baseball team back for

00:02:13.420 decades but yeah that's probably not going to happen nope not happening anyways olympic stadium

00:02:19.900 first we've talked enough about sports let's let's hop into this thing

00:02:24.260 yeah so starting off guys i wanted to kind of cover uh canadian taxpayer federation's uh annual

00:02:34.900 report card on all the provincial finance ministers so depending on what province we're

00:02:39.540 in we might be surprised at the rating that our province got or surprised at the rating that some

00:02:44.820 other provinces got you can see the overall list right here and among every provincial finance

00:02:50.580 minister not a single one got an a a plus or a minus so i think that's the big takeaway that kind of

00:02:58.420 i mean the best marks at b plus which isn't terrible don't get me wrong but the majority

00:03:02.340 of finance ministers got a failing grade depending on i'm not just talking about f but i consider a d

00:03:07.700 minus and a d fail if you go if you go in school and you get a d i'm pretty sure that's a fail like

00:03:12.740 f is just worse but you still fail you need like a c plus to pass from my understanding

00:03:17.060 so based on that more finance ministers failed than cast which is it's just ridiculous uh and obviously

00:03:23.620 you guys are in different provinces too so what were your your key takeaways because uh alberta second

00:03:28.740 place hey not the worst we we did some good things but also some bad things uh what did you

00:03:33.460 guys take away well i'm an ontarian so uh when uh this article went up i immediately scrolled down

00:03:40.260 to where it says ontario finance minister peter bethlenfalvy and uh to with no surprise whatsoever

00:03:46.980 you got a d minus so uh you guys are eating a lot better in alberta when it comes from a

00:03:51.940 taxpayer's perspective but uh yeah i mean the d minus for bethlenfalvy is definitely deserved uh

00:03:59.940 a couple weeks ago the ontario finance minister tabled a budget showing that there's a 14 they're

00:04:06.580 projecting a 14.7 billion dollar deficit this is not the federal government that has a tax base of 40

00:04:14.020 plus million people this is a province that has a 14.7 billion dollar deficit i get it's the

00:04:20.420 biggest province in the country and that you know uh there there's a lot of people that you have to

00:04:26.020 accommodate for but you know this is a incredibly large uh deficit they are ballooning the debt to

00:04:32.020 the point where uh it is projected that in two years ontario's uh total debt will reach 500 billion

00:04:40.100 for a province that is an insane amount of debt to have and you know per person debt is set to reach

00:04:47.380 28 470 by the year's end the highest in the nation so ontario's finances under a supposedly

00:04:56.260 conservative government is getting worse and worse by the year and this is because uh premier ford he

00:05:02.100 campaigned on a bunch of spending commitments uh during the election before the election he sent every

00:05:07.780 ontarian a 200 checks just so you uh know uh what style of governance he's going to pursue and then

00:05:14.100 uh on the campaign trail he uh promised tens of billions of dollars in expensive uh spending

00:05:19.620 packages to combat the tariffs but uh you know for all the spending that the ford government has been

00:05:25.780 doing uh not just in this past fiscal year but in the past seven and a half years uh ontario's

00:05:31.140 unemployment rate is one of the worst in the country it's uh over eight percent and it's rising

00:05:35.940 every month uh canadians are still dealing with the cost of living uh crunch uh that inflation

00:05:42.020 has caused over the past few years uh ontario has some of the worst housing markets in the country

00:05:47.620 specifically in the greater toronto area where the average price of a home is over a million dollars so

00:05:53.380 the premier uh premier ford's government hasn't really been doing anything to accommodate that

00:05:57.860 and then you table uh a budget that has no tax release whatsoever but instead is ballooning debt

00:06:03.780 i think it's incredibly uh disappointing that d-minus is uh well warranted yeah i was actually kind

00:06:10.340 of surprised that he didn't get an f just from what i've seen as an outsider looking into ontario

00:06:14.740 of course he did get an f in debt and spending increase and and just a quick word on spending

00:06:19.300 increase the spending increased in every single province across the nation compared to last year

00:06:25.780 so i i i i really found that shocking that not a single province is saving money essentially and

00:06:33.780 i don't know though at the same time this might just be provinces feel so pressured to deal with

00:06:38.580 all the problems caused by the federal government's immigration that they they need to spend money

00:06:44.500 essentially to to help their provincial residents what did what did you take away from this alex

00:06:50.580 anything well yeah i mean i'm here in bc we've never really been known for financial management

00:06:57.540 oh yeah yeah it's not really a thing it's not really a big part of our reputation i think we just

00:07:03.620 had four credit downgrades in the last four years in bc so say that it's pretty fairly reflective of

00:07:10.180 the actual financial situation here for yeah four consecutive credit downgrades but hey we'll just

00:07:17.220 keep spending more the david eby government specialty right it got them re-elected so what can you say

00:07:23.460 but if you just look at the popularity of uh some of the premiers and look at the finance minister's

00:07:28.580 corresponding grades uh the correlation isn't great for example uh bob canoe he one of the most uh

00:07:34.660 popular premiers in the entire country uh his finance minister received a big fat f uh you had

00:07:41.620 the ford government that was elected just elected for a third term uh their finance minister as we said

00:07:46.580 peter bethenthalvi received a d minus uh it looks like uh the cackers uh might be uh thrown out by

00:07:53.220 uh quebecers in the next election but even france all ago was elected for a second term and his uh

00:07:58.900 finance minister uh is receiving a d minus on this uh report so uh i think a lot of canadians have

00:08:05.300 shifted their attention away from the provincial electoral scene and toward the federal electoral

00:08:10.660 scene hence why they're not holding uh their provincial governments to account in the same way that

00:08:15.940 perhaps they would during normal times and that makes sense you know with all the chaos in the last few

00:08:20.660 months of trudeau's tenure and then trudeau resigning we having a new uh prime minister and then an

00:08:25.780 election a lot of canadians just focus on the federal scene i think this is the same thing with

00:08:29.620 us but uh now that we have the time to sort of settle down uh we have some certainty and some

00:08:35.060 stability on the federal electoral scene canadians are going to be turning their attention uh toward

00:08:40.100 their provincial politics and the provincial finances uh and they're going to recognize that uh

00:08:45.220 it's not in a great state and it's the case for most provinces in this country yeah interesting you

00:08:51.620 say that no i never noticed that the worst performing provincial finance minister on this

00:08:57.060 report card from manitoba and wab canoe over the last few years every single poll i've ever seen on

00:09:02.820 provincial premiers and their favorability he is the number one rated premier in fact a poll came out uh

00:09:09.620 on thursday uh from angus reed showing the new the newest favorability of the premiers and again canoe

00:09:17.060 was in first place and his rating had gone up not down the only other premier who had a rating increase

00:09:22.580 was danielle smith uh all the other ones either were neutral so they didn't change or they went down

00:09:28.660 but that's a story for another day so but but not to cut you off like i saw a recent poll that showed

00:09:35.620 that premier ford's popularity is on the increase like i think a recent provincial poll had the

00:09:41.140 ontario pcs at 49 the liberals at 28 and like the ndp at like 14 15 49 like ford like i've never seen

00:09:50.100 that for the ontario pcs in polling you know this could be an outlier poll but the fact that you know

00:09:56.660 they're getting anywhere close to 49 in a you know hopefully uh legitimate public opinion poll is is

00:10:03.620 actually ridiculous to me it's actually like i'm personally offended by that because you know i've

00:10:08.980 i've been paying attention to what ford has been doing and uh he's not been doing a very great job

00:10:14.100 so um let's hope canadians are able to open their eyes especially to uh the fiscal mismanagement that

00:10:20.500 has been going on at queen's park yeah speaking of potentially not doing a great job although i don't

00:10:27.940 know if i'd go that far uh the chief justice had some uh very strong words perhaps for someone in

00:10:36.260 his position and maybe even could be seen as as partisan type language i mean this is very very

00:10:42.420 strong language yeah noah what did what did you think of what the canada's chief justice had to say

00:10:47.220 about trump although i don't think his comments were directly targeted at trump but through implication or

00:10:53.460 uh inference it was it was clear enough who he was talking about yeah so uh richard wagner uh

00:10:59.220 every now and then he decides to go to the media and uh do an interview uh if you recall around the

00:11:04.820 time uh or just after uh the freedom convoy had uh come to ottawa and been uh you know moved out by

00:11:11.620 the trudeau government uh richard wagner gave a interview and he said oh you know those truckers you

00:11:17.300 know they were uh disruptive and you know he had he had only negative things to to say about the

00:11:22.020 truckers and i think last year he also gave an interview uh that you know made some waves and

00:11:27.220 the ways that you wouldn't want them to make from the the chief justice uh so again you know he sits

00:11:32.180 down for another interview and he's asked about the situation in the united states and he implies that

00:11:39.140 the united states is headed toward a dictatorship that the rule of law and judicial independence is under

00:11:45.140 attack now you know like you could have your criticisms of the trump administration you could

00:11:49.700 criticize uh how they responded to certain uh judicial rulings but to say that trump is a

00:11:55.540 dictator after he was just democratically elected uh and to say that you know he's trying to uh make

00:12:01.700 become a dictator you know after you know his government generally does comply with uh judicial

00:12:06.820 orders uh probably not in the most judicious and uh expeditious way as uh many people would like him

00:12:13.700 to comply with these orders but you know he still does it uh and to say that you know they're going

00:12:18.340 towards a autocratic an autocracy uh i think is uh quite ridiculous uh isaac i know that you've uh

00:12:25.620 held back uh your uh adjectives and describing richard but i will not i will not hold back i don't think

00:12:31.860 he's doing quite a good job uh especially because uh later on uh in the review uh he was asked about

00:12:39.300 um upholding uh the supreme court traditions uh and he said that you know to celebrate the 150th

00:12:45.620 anniversary of the supreme court they're gonna go away from the red and iconic red and white robes

00:12:50.420 uh that the supreme court has sort of just uh stripping away uh a sort of very long tradition

00:12:56.100 long-held tradition to uh i guess create robes that are more fitting of uh canada's uh you know tradition

00:13:02.900 traditions which you know it's kind of like a bit of a conflict there if you're you know trying to

00:13:08.900 think about that a bit uh you know with some sense but also he uh he uh the supreme court they put up

00:13:15.220 a big statue of richard wagner in the lobby of the supreme court which is not something you generally do

00:13:21.220 while you're still serving on the court you usually get your statue commissioned after you leave uh and

00:13:26.420 he said you know like uh the reporter asked well who uh who purchased the statue uh for like who's the

00:13:33.060 one that paid for it and you know wagner said oh i don't know uh i don't know who uh commissioned

00:13:38.500 the statue but you know it's there uh and i'd like to see my face every time i walk in the door

00:13:43.460 so uh definitely not you know a flat very interview that flattered himself with uh conservatives or

00:13:49.540 canadians in general uh what did you guys think of uh richard wagner's a strange eccentric uh

00:13:55.540 interviews especially as a comments on autocracy in the united states just quickly on the statue that's

00:14:02.260 i think ironic because if historically that's what dictators do but there's statues of themselves

00:14:08.100 everywhere yes of course i i i mean good to see the irony here but alex yeah you're you're a crime

00:14:16.980 reporter so what did you think of that and and more more importantly perhaps just the importance of

00:14:23.940 uh of a supreme court justice and any judge for that matter just remaining non-partisan and kind of

00:14:28.820 not sticking their nose where where it doesn't belong well it's obviously a politicized comment

00:14:33.940 right i mean if when justin trudeau was doing the same thing in ottawa you know and stomping

00:14:39.780 peaceful protesters with horses he really didn't seem to take exception to it so you know it's a shame

00:14:45.700 to see a judge be so politicized that he doesn't he isn't able to see things consistently and and with

00:14:52.660 principles right that's actually kind of a i think a reasonable expectation of the public from their

00:14:57.460 judges right is that they see things with some level of neutrality absolutely and you know one of the

00:15:04.820 most celebrated lauded things about our supreme court is the supported supposed uh non-partisan

00:15:11.460 nature of our supreme court uh you know i took a couple law classes in university and one of the big

00:15:19.060 things that my professors you know lauds is you know how fair and reasonable and unlike the american

00:15:25.140 the bad american supreme court that our court is like you know and then you read these decisions

00:15:30.420 like the insight case or uh you know the judges are saying oh well you actually have to grant uh the

00:15:36.020 safe injection site uh mr harper mr harper uh and you have these cases where they're striking down

00:15:41.380 mandatory minimum uh laws you know very reasonable moderate mandatory minimum laws uh that the the

00:15:48.340 the court is striking down under the under section eight the prohibition against a cruel unusual punishment

00:15:54.820 uh there's just there's so many decisions that are expressly political uh that you know i i can't i

00:16:02.660 don't even have time to recite but uh to imagine that the court is non-partisan uh it is it is a fantasy

00:16:09.780 and richard wagner himself is doing a great job in you know just uh dispelling that illusion of

00:16:17.540 tearing down the bricks of uh you know this uh conventional wisdom that has been developed by our

00:16:23.300 laurentian elites that our supreme court is an infallible uh non-partisan and you know are just

00:16:29.140 sort of like philosopher kings well guess what these are humans who actually have their own political

00:16:34.020 beliefs and their beliefs are just as objectionable as everyone else's and we have the right to

00:16:40.020 criticize them and they should be criticized because wagner definitely has been acting in political uh

00:16:45.460 in ways that have been politicized and uh you know it's incumbent on our judges especially the chief

00:16:51.460 justice representing the court to not engage in such tomfoolery well it's also a bit of a play to

00:16:59.300 pay to play system too right i think i read somewhere that more than 50 percent of the judges in

00:17:03.780 canada aren't only liberal voters they're liberal donors right because we we um have our political

00:17:11.060 parties appoint judges in canada right yeah and and and on the same beat i mean alberta for example

00:17:20.420 is one of the only provinces who has its own senate election but of course the senators we elected were

00:17:25.460 not selected to the senate trudeau picked his own ideologues to to stack the senate with but that's

00:17:31.700 a different story and before we get they can't do anything yeah or don't move on to a different

00:17:37.460 part of politics which for me this was an absolutely shocking poll which suggested quite

00:17:44.180 heavily that canada's moving towards a two-party system because the ndp is uh just they're done

00:17:50.020 they're done based on this poll uh so basically this angus reed institute poll showed that only 13

00:17:56.500 percent of respondents would definitely consider supporting ndp in the future whereas 41 percent

00:18:02.420 said there was absolutely no way they would ever support the ndp in the future and there's a lot to

00:18:07.780 break down in this poll but a few interesting things uh younger canadians were much more optimistic

00:18:13.860 about the ndp whereas uh canadians above the age of 35 were essentially much more pessimistic and

00:18:20.100 and thought the the party's best days were behind them uh and then we also saw something for past

00:18:27.460 ndp voters and which parties they went to for example less than one percent of those who voted

00:18:32.980 conservative would vote ndp in the future perhaps not surprising but that number rises to 18 percent

00:18:38.500 among liberals because the liberal party absorbed so many ndp voters but as for the voters that they

00:18:46.020 absorbed i mean so many of them are saying they're not going back for example um uh yeah so 51 this is

00:18:56.420 this is 51 of past ndp voters who voted liberal did so just for so that the conservatives would lose

00:19:04.660 so that that's not great and uh and honestly arguably the main reason the conservatives lost

00:19:09.620 the federal election was that that so many ndp voters left that party to vote liberals if they had

00:19:14.420 stuck with the ndp the conservatives likely would have won the election because there would have

00:19:18.020 been a bigger vote split but also generally just uh 47 of past ndp voters believed that the party's

00:19:26.660 future is bright whereas 28 in total say that the best days are behind it and then there was a bunch

00:19:32.660 of stuff on singh and his performance which was split but yeah what do you guys think about the ndp's

00:19:39.140 future i mean how long will it take for the party to recover federally yeah i think that the ndp they're

00:19:47.700 definitely in a dire position now this is perhaps the ndp being artificially underestimated because

00:19:55.620 they had a an incredibly unpopular leader and currently an interim leader uh so perhaps if they

00:20:01.620 have someone who's just you know so much more competent than seeing you know a jack layton-esque leader

00:20:08.340 that you know they can revive the party's chances and you know like at the end of the day the ndp does

00:20:13.220 have a decent amount of name recognition amongst the canadian public and you know with some competent

00:20:18.660 leadership with some incompetence from the liberals uh you know they could definitely uh bring their

00:20:24.180 support up especially if you look at say uh provinces like uh manitoba where the ndp is actually quite

00:20:30.420 popular on a provincial level uh in british columbia uh it's the same thing in alberta you know the ndp

00:20:37.540 they're still the clear number two party to the ucp but they still poll in the 30s and 40s

00:20:43.860 provincially it's not like you know this is a rump party uh you know in a in a one party province or

00:20:50.100 whatever but and you look in saskatchewan the ndp made great gains in the last provincial election uh

00:20:56.420 last year so the ndp there's still a relevant force at least on the provincial level it's just that the

00:21:02.340 federal party is has been ran so incompetently in the past few years that people have a very

00:21:10.020 negative uh view of the ndp the federal ndp they associate with singh and all of his uh just

00:21:16.980 incompetence and it's like faux radicalism but also like you know his his champagne socialism you know

00:21:24.420 it's like this is the the image that the ndp is associated with and you sort of had charlie angus

00:21:30.740 complaining about that in the media uh earlier this week uh but yeah yeah i think uh at the end

00:21:36.420 of the day it's going to be very very hard uh for the ndp especially since they are not an official

00:21:41.540 they don't have official party status so they do not get money from uh the parliament uh for each uh vote

00:21:48.660 that they received that they got in the election uh they don't have that privilege so they're going to

00:21:52.980 have to work really hard to rebuild the already battered uh party finances but uh i'm curious about

00:21:59.540 you alex because you're you're in british columbia do you feel like uh the as like since the british

00:22:04.660 columbia is uh the british columbia ndp is a powerful political party do you feel like that will

00:22:10.820 correspond to perhaps the federal ndp becoming a relevant force in british columbia again yeah i mean

00:22:17.460 i think the ndp still has a lot of good faith support here in bc you know i'm speaking on behalf

00:22:23.060 of true north's left-hard correspondent here in bc if i allowed to say that we might have to cut that

00:22:32.420 out um yeah i mean people people here still kind of like the ndp and i i don't take these polls too

00:22:38.820 seriously especially in between elections because i find party loyalty in canada is pretty dynamic

00:22:45.700 it's not like in the united states right where you have generational republicans and democrats

00:22:50.820 people here have very little loyalty to whoever they're voting for and yeah typically they'll

00:22:56.260 they'll vote for whoever they think has the most compelling party leader whoever that happens to be

00:23:02.500 i also think with trudeau moving so far to the left it kind of rendered the ndp meaningless as a

00:23:07.380 political party but now as we're seeing carney move the liberals back to the center a little bit

00:23:12.820 i mean it's probably too early to tell but it appears that way then it starts to make the ndp look

00:23:19.140 more appealing to people on the left i would say so i expect those numbers to change but you know just

00:23:25.860 to like you know piggyback off of that even like despite mark carney's pivot to the center relative

00:23:31.460 to justin trudeau who is like you know so far left that it's hard to you know even conceptualize the

00:23:36.580 current political you know uh dynamic right now uh but you know cardi bringing the liberals back to

00:23:42.740 the center uh did not really boost the ndp in any sort of way actually they plummeted to like six percent

00:23:48.900 in the last election despite sort of optimal ideological uh circumstances so you know something

00:23:54.580 i've been pondering uh recently in the past few years is is canada just moving to a two-party system

00:24:01.300 or at least a system in which having a third party that could win elections is just unsustainable

00:24:07.540 now the ndp has never really been that it's really been the liberals and conservatives but

00:24:11.460 they've managed to you know gain official uh opposition status in 2011 they've had a sizable

00:24:18.100 parliamentary caucuses uh but if you look in say alberta the alberta liberal party died so now it's a

00:24:24.900 two-party uh state there uh with a conservative ndp and bc you know it's the liberals and the

00:24:31.780 conservatives and the ndp they couldn't sustain themselves the liberals had to die the conservatives

00:24:36.500 had to rise up and that's a two-party province it's the same thing in manitoba it's the same thing

00:24:41.540 in saskatchewan ontario is a bit different but if you look at uh a lot of the atlantic provinces

00:24:47.140 there are two-party races uh so you're kind of seeing this sort of realignment on the provincial

00:24:52.900 side of politics sort of happen uh in federal politics and you know if this is a long-term

00:24:58.020 trend in which just having a third party uh you know to the liberals or conservatives is unsustainable

00:25:04.740 that causes that you know that means there's some real real political trouble uh for the federal ndp

00:25:10.420 if their party's just not relevant anymore yeah i think that one of the most brilliant things that

00:25:15.060 the carny campaign did in the last election was not show their cards right like this this kind of

00:25:21.620 right word lurched back to the center of the liberal party we're really seeing it post-election

00:25:27.060 we didn't see it so much during the campaign a lot of major social issues we had no idea what

00:25:32.020 mark carney's opinions were on them during the election in fact we still don't um you know safe

00:25:36.420 supply comes to mind transgender issues it's pride month he's barely mentioned it at all which is

00:25:44.740 actually kind of a refreshing change from the rainbow hysteria that we went through with justin trudeau for

00:25:49.940 the better part of the last decade so yeah i mean in a country where most people are generally very

00:25:55.140 politically apathetic there are a few things quite as attractive as a politician people know nothing

00:26:00.420 about right and that's really kind of what i think was the linchpin of mark carney's campaign

00:26:06.500 and why he was so successful but now as he's moving further to the center i think that it starts to

00:26:11.380 make the ndp look attractive again to people who are more have lefting leftist sensibilities let's say

00:26:17.540 it's it's a decent theory and i think we'll have to wait and see but moving on to our next story

00:26:24.180 here alex for any listeners who might be familiar with to catch a predator uh an on the ontario police

00:26:30.900 force if i'm correct was doing a a similar thing or a similar method to catch uh what was the child

00:26:38.580 predators or what what's the situation here alex yeah so as i understand it from the police statements they

00:26:44.500 did um what they call a child luring uh probe or mega sting and so they posed as children online very

00:26:51.460 similar to the old chris hansen show to catch a predator that was formerly you know on dateline nbc

00:26:58.180 i think they went on to internet chat rooms and they tried to lure adult while it was all men of course

00:27:04.500 um to come meet kids and then they would arrest them it's really what i find fascinating about this

00:27:09.780 story is that they were able to arrest and charge 36 people in only two weeks so this actually brings

00:27:17.460 rise to a few questions for me number one why didn't they do this earlier uh the whole creep

00:27:23.140 catchers phenomenon again it's better part of a decade it's been going on and actually police

00:27:27.860 organizations were criticizing these online vigilante groups that were doing exactly what the police ended

00:27:33.700 up doing and were incredibly successful at in a very short amount of time so that's really my main

00:27:39.460 question why didn't they do this earlier why aren't they doing it more often but kudos to them for

00:27:44.260 doing it at all yeah that's my question too alex i think well myself and probably other people who

00:27:49.540 were watched to catch a predator just assumed by watching that that like the big police organizations

00:27:55.540 like fbi level would be doing things like this like oh that's just what they do of course that's what

00:28:00.340 they do and you assumed like that this was already happening so i'm just so surprised that you're

00:28:05.060 saying that this is like a new thing and it hasn't been ongoing the last like few decades

00:28:09.140 because i just had i was under the assumption that that it would have been well i assume that

00:28:13.220 they do a little bit of it but i mean this big on this level of scale is quite impressive and

00:28:18.420 apparently required cooperation between over 20 different policing organizations so i think that's

00:28:23.300 one of the issues too right is jurisdictionally it might be hard to to work together but again i'm just

00:28:28.900 happy that they're doing it sorry go ahead no no but it's like you know these police agencies they're

00:28:34.820 not really doing their job when it comes to you know dealing with uh potential pedophiles and so

00:28:40.580 you have this sort of gap in the law enforcement market almost so you have these you know ordinary

00:28:47.140 citizens going up and you know you know creating a youtube channel where the whole premise is that

00:28:52.820 they create these videos where they catch these uh quote-unquote predators you know they you see you can

00:28:58.580 find this content you know quite often on youtube uh not and chris hansen is actually doing it on

00:29:04.420 youtube too uh but you have like a bunch of other spin-off uh youtube channels where you have people

00:29:09.460 who you know conduct very similar uh sting operations so you know there's a clear like gap in the market

00:29:15.620 uh you know law enforcement market for you know getting rid of these uh predators off from our streets

00:29:21.460 you know and you know i have a younger sister who's like 10 years younger than i i want to make sure that

00:29:26.980 you know when she walks to school or you know she goes to play at the park that you know she's safe and

00:29:32.660 she doesn't have to we don't have to worry about you know potential predators uh roaming around so

00:29:38.580 if the police did a better job and you know conducted these operations more often i think you know a lot

00:29:44.340 of parents uh would feel uh better about you know sending their kids off to do x y and z sort of like how

00:29:51.700 parents used to do it in the 80s and 90s and stuff like that well i think one of the more disturbing

00:29:56.500 things about this case too is that it's not when they're walking to school that's the most dangerous

00:30:01.140 place now it's in the home right because these predators were all online right so the predator

00:30:06.500 is now in your home essentially and so i think that that's a sobering reminder to parents that you know

00:30:13.300 you shouldn't just trust your kids to to parent themselves on the internet and because the predators

00:30:20.420 are prolific and there's a lot of them yeah and just to add one more point like uh it's it's really

00:30:26.420 important that it's law enforcement you know conducting these sting operations not necessarily

00:30:30.660 like youtubers because like at the end of the day like youtubers they might be doing it for the right

00:30:35.620 reasons but you know they're probably doing it for the fame attention and the money uh you know and so

00:30:40.580 they get into it for the wrong reasons and you know you see some of these videos where they're just like

00:30:44.420 beating up people uh perhaps they're like they're catching a predator look but the actual predator

00:30:49.300 they're catching is someone's like severely autistic or like has like down syndrome and like that you

00:30:54.180 know like and then they're just like assaulting a person who's like autistic and it's like just it

00:30:59.540 just feels like really weird like it's best that we actually like leave this to actual law enforcement

00:31:04.980 authorities who can conduct these operations properly instead of you know chasing money and clout but of

00:31:10.420 course the effectiveness of these programs lives and dies in the courts right so i think one of the

00:31:16.180 things people are really upset about is that when they did the release 34 of the 36 had already been

00:31:22.100 released from custody by the time that they had announced this to the public now it's 33 one of

00:31:27.940 them has been remanded after two new charges which i just brought about yesterday so um yeah yeah i'm

00:31:34.020 sure they'll all they'll all be recharged because they'll just commit crimes again as we've seen with

00:31:38.100 this catch and release policy i mean it's just like it's the same people committing the crimes over

00:31:42.180 and over again and they just keep getting let out so really at this point it's like the rcmp for

00:31:47.380 example like i was talking about if they did this cross-jurisdictionally and they're doing all this

00:31:51.140 stuff just for these people to be released it's like what's the point that that's what i keep seeing

00:31:55.140 these police organizations say what do you want us to do we arrest these people they're out the next day

00:32:00.260 like what do you want us to do well we i mean it's they're in a terrible situation it sends a really

00:32:06.500 bad message too right because you know there there is such a thing as sex tourists right so if canada

00:32:12.180 has a lax criminal justice system especially when it comes to pedophiles then we become a safe zone

00:32:17.220 for sex tourists right and that's obviously not what we want if we want to keep our kids safe so

00:32:22.340 i implore everybody to put pressure on their local judges and to keep track of what they're doing and

00:32:27.940 i think that's the best way that we can change the system wow we're really kicking off the weekend on a

00:32:33.940 dark now they well yeah and i mean it's all problems you have to understand them right so

00:32:41.460 sticking with the sex theme sort of uh alex you for those who don't know alex has been uh

00:32:48.900 sort of participating in the hockey canada trial so he knows what's going on uh and we're reaching the

00:32:54.500 the end stages of this because if i'm correct the defense recently presented all of their arguments

00:32:59.700 and now the crown is going to be presenting their arguments so yeah what what have you taken away

00:33:03.940 from this trial so far alex so many things it's a it's a really it's a bizarre trial um for so many

00:33:13.540 reasons i think one of the most stomach churning things about this trial is putting it into the

00:33:20.980 context of what we were just talking about the fact that we have this revolving door justice system

00:33:25.460 for predators and monsters and here we are i assume that this case cost the ontario prosecution

00:33:31.140 services well over a million dollars to investigate and then put on trial a 19 year old getting a

00:33:40.340 well i guess he would be 26 now but we're putting him on trial for a quote unquote blowy in a hotel room

00:33:46.980 seven years ago i don't know i don't know if this ever should have gone to trial at the same time i also

00:33:53.460 understand the spirit of believing victims of course and so i will stop short of saying that

00:33:59.940 it shouldn't have gone to trial i just question maybe the priorities of the prosecutors given how

00:34:05.780 many other people are seeing their charges dropped due to what the ontario prosecution services says is a

00:34:11.620 lack of resources yeah no i understand the contrast in what you're saying wherein these players are are

00:34:19.220 getting put through this public trial this huge trial whereas as we just talked about child

00:34:25.220 predators are are literally let out of bail then on bail the next day i mean this is crazy yeah no

00:34:31.220 have you paid attention to the to the hockey canada trial at all i've been paying attention to it in

00:34:36.820 passing but what really you know stands out to me is that you know every time i walk by my grandma

00:34:43.380 who's watching six o'clock news you know you get another update of the hockey canada trial and it

00:34:47.860 feels like i've been hearing about this for years because i have been hearing about it for years it's

00:34:52.500 been it's been so long yeah as you said this is an incident that happened seven years ago and you know

00:34:57.540 it's really frustrating for the victims and the accused to not receive a verdict on this i know uh there

00:35:05.700 were some complications and the trial that just couldn't be helped but you know when you're waiting you

00:35:10.740 you know years upon years uh for a verdict it takes a toll on you especially if you're you know

00:35:16.500 the potential victim and you have to go up on the stand multiple times and you have to you know have

00:35:20.980 this in the news cycle over and over again and if you're uh you know the the hockey players and even

00:35:27.380 and especially if you know you're innocent and you have to be dragged through the mud uh for years upon

00:35:33.460 years and have your name in newspaper headlines and stuff like that it's it's really it must be really

00:35:38.820 tough especially uh on them and their families i wouldn't really wish it on anyone uh so it you

00:35:45.700 know i think for the benefit of everyone uh it's best we get this over with uh as quickly as possible

00:35:51.460 i know there'll be another month until uh we hear a verdict so uh let's hope that's a quick and speedy

00:35:58.340 month and you know let's let's get this over with i think it's best for uh the nation that we don't

00:36:03.380 dwell on this for another year yeah i know it's interesting you say that just quickly uh because

00:36:09.620 even if everyone in this trial is innocent and that's the case i mean the emotional toll that

00:36:14.020 they would have had to gone through over these seven years they they are paying a a severe price

00:36:18.100 for that in itself like charges aside that that enough in itself but i mean that's the saying the

00:36:23.860 wheels of justice turn slowly right anyways alex yeah uh the the if i can just add one thing about that

00:36:30.180 the headline for that story because that was the a quotation from daniel brand who is the lawyer for

00:36:35.380 alex formanton who said she just wants money uh my feelings on this trial have evolved over time so

00:36:41.380 just looking at it holistically i don't believe that that's actually the case at all i think it's

00:36:45.700 a rather audacious claim because she already settled a civil suit with hockey canada in 2022

00:36:51.700 the the defendant or sorry not the defendant the complainant who's identified as em in this case

00:36:57.300 really has nothing to gain from doing this other than feeling understood so so i think that some of

00:37:04.420 the the claims that the defense lawyers have made and some of the arguments that they've made have been

00:37:09.620 i think damaging to i just don't i don't find them convincing i'll just leave it at that at the same

00:37:16.740 time does any of the behavior that is being alleged occurred here is it does it pass a bar of

00:37:21.620 criminality i'm not i find that nebulous as well so this this brings me returns me to my original point

00:37:28.980 why are we even doing this right like i i think at the heart of the matter is that you have two

00:37:34.420 different movements you have this me too movement right which is and i understand the spirit of it

00:37:39.300 like completely and genuinely the idea that you should believe all sexual assault survivors because

00:37:44.340 frankly like people just don't falsely report sexual assault that often i mean even the the

00:37:50.100 statistics that show it happens relatively often i think the highest i've ever seen is two to eight

00:37:54.900 percent of accusations are false that's that's high enough right if it ruins somebody's life i mean

00:38:01.380 you know if one out of 50's lives are being ruined i mean that's nothing to just need that but i just

00:38:06.100 don't think that it's this really common thing that happens um that people are falsely accusing others

00:38:11.780 to destroy their lives so i get the me too movement of believing all survivors but it runs headlong

00:38:18.420 into the presumption of innocence right these two concepts can't possibly coexist right they're

00:38:24.820 they're mutually untenable and and so i think that in a way this trial maybe is a good thing because

00:38:30.580 it will remove some of the ambiguities that we have regarding that conflict of interest and as well as

00:38:35.860 you know some of the ambiguities surrounding consent generally yeah that's something just quickly

00:38:40.660 to touch on that i've always struggled with was of course we we learn from a child that innocent

00:38:46.900 intel proven guilty this is a core value in our society and yet i don't feel that sports in

00:38:53.540 general uh encompasses very well like we see these people get accused of things that in no way are

00:38:59.140 proven yet and they're kicked off the team or whatever they they have to be put through the ringer

00:39:03.700 so like you said these these two things can't be true at once uh just quickly if you want to uh this

00:39:10.020 is up to you because obviously it's just your opinion but obviously we're going to hear the verdict i

00:39:14.420 think in about a month what do you expect uh the judge is going to come back with so i first of all

00:39:20.660 i'm happy that it's going to be jury or sorry trial by judge and the reason that i'm happy for that is

00:39:26.020 that when you get a jury verdict you just get the verdict there's never an explanation that comes along

00:39:30.500 with it and in a trial like this where i think there is a genuine public interest in removing ambiguity

00:39:35.540 around consent i think it will be helpful to have the judge give their reasons for the decision

00:39:40.740 based off of the evidence i've seen and i'm not a legal expert this is actually the first sexual

00:39:45.540 assault trial i've ever covered um so i i would take my opinion with a grain of salt but i could

00:39:51.780 foresee a situation in which so all of the players have been charged with one count of sexual assault

00:39:57.940 and one player michael mcleod who was the player who invited the other men into the hotel room he is

00:40:04.580 charged with an additional count of party to an offense so i could foresee this bizarre outcome

00:40:11.780 happening where he would be guilty of party of an offense but not guilty of sexual assault along with

00:40:17.940 the other five players which then obviously brings rise to the question of well what is the offense yeah

00:40:25.220 now i saw this during the coups trial obviously a very different trial very different circumstances but

00:40:29.940 they were charged with conspiracy to commit murder and possessions of a weapon for a dangerous purpose

00:40:34.580 the jury came back with not guilty on conspiracy to commit murder but guilty on possession of a

00:40:40.500 weapons for a dangerous purpose which brought rise to the question well what is the dangerous purpose

00:40:45.940 right so these things do happen um and i think that there is kind of some pressure on the judge to

00:40:53.460 impart justice in some capacity so yeah i don't think it's beyond the bounds of believability

00:40:59.140 that everybody will be acquitted on the sexual assault charges and that mcleod will be guilty

00:41:03.460 on the party to an offense and we're all left a little befuddled yeah do you think this pressures

00:41:08.100 the judge in any way because they might be thinking uh this is going to set some sort of precedent

00:41:13.060 going forward in in cases like this like do you think they feel that feel that pressure because

00:41:16.980 they're really i don't know building the framework for for for future trials here i imagine so i i've

00:41:23.620 looked into some of the case history in previous trials by judge uh involving this this judge and

00:41:30.100 she is a very competent judge that's a very kind person from my perception having watched the trial

00:41:36.420 and somebody who really has an understanding and appreciation for the presumption of innocence

00:41:41.700 and not rendering a guilty verdict unless she's convinced beyond all reasonable doubt

00:41:47.620 so just so to answer your question does she is there pressure for her to establish some type of

00:41:51.620 precedent i believe that there is and i think that it is and possibly does pass the bar of illegality

00:41:58.740 i think it's certainly immoral to have consensual sex with a girl and then when she goes to the

00:42:03.620 bathroom invite all of your friends in um i i think that that may actually qualify as an offense it's a

00:42:11.700 pretty unique situation i can't really see too many circumstances in which that would ever happen

00:42:16.740 um but yeah i mean if she feels compelled morally then i could see her wanting to establish a precedent

00:42:23.860 there because i think that that behavior is wrong and and we should call it out as such

00:42:28.500 and my predictions whatever alex's is yeah no i was going to give you the final word that's it

00:42:33.700 eh yeah that's it all right i'd like to thank my colleagues noah jarvis and alex zolton

00:42:38.260 or just remember everything you heard today was off the record

00:42:47.300 awesome say that more often that'll make it a lot easier to do off the record just

00:42:51.380 whatever alex says i agree it's a weird case man i don't know i don't know yeah no i'm i'm just

00:42:57.460 i'm just excited i mean for the organization that you got to be on the case i think that's awesome

00:43:02.180 oh thank you i appreciate that i was excited that they let me do it like i wasn't sure they would

00:43:06.900 yeah yeah so especially because you kind of came in halfway through right i did i did i missed you

00:43:12.740 weren't there from the start which i'm really bummed actually that i missed it and i i i don't know

00:43:17.940 if i said it on the show i wish i did if i missed it but she is a very credible witness

00:43:23.540 like she is not self-victimizing she's not sensationalizing and she's actually taken

00:43:28.820 accountability a bunch of times said like oh this is kind of my fault too so i think what we

00:43:33.460 were dealing with is that like society itself doesn't know what the lines of consent are

00:43:40.820 do you know what i mean yeah what sort of uh like ruling do you want the judge to come back with on

00:43:46.820 the consent uh issue i think that he should be guilty of party to an offense

00:43:52.580 but i know that that doesn't make sense yeah but it's like i'm also kind of like a kind of try to

00:43:59.460 make like a people pleaser everybody happy kind of person generally but what sort of jurisprudence

00:44:03.460 do you want the judge to establish regarding like what qualifies his consent so what it is

00:44:09.620 so you could say i think the the the charge party to an offense doesn't capture what he did wrong

00:44:19.140 but she based off of the evidence that i can see certainly did not consent to all of these men

00:44:24.340 coming into the room so it could even be the the offense you could see could be voyeurism right

00:44:29.460 because she was naked and he invited all these men into the room to basically gawk at her and tell her

00:44:34.180 to masturbate on the floor and we don't need a voyeurism charge successful against any of the men

00:44:40.100 in order to establish that as a potential offense right right that would be a whole other trial

00:44:45.700 but yeah i think like that was definitely wrong and there's just there's i haven't seen any evidence

00:44:52.420 that convinces me in any way that she agreed to having all those men come in once they came in

00:44:57.540 she says she went into autopilot and you know was goading yeah that's the thing because she definitely

00:45:03.780 uh at least feigned consent when they were there right but she didn't consent to them coming in the

00:45:08.740 room so there's two things that's that's the weird thing right yeah yeah and like i'm absolutely

00:45:13.780 certain that she did say like are you pussies gonna fuck me and everything but you know what

00:45:18.740 people get drunk and they have too much fun sometimes and like whatever it is what it is

00:45:24.100 and she takes accountability for that right like she's like she's not the other thing was i i was

00:45:29.700 reading one of your articles didn't you say like she was in some way pressured to bring this

00:45:33.220 suit forward by her parents or something like that that's a consideration too yeah so she had a

00:45:38.020 boyfriend at the time so her mother um was the one who originally went to the police and then her

00:45:43.700 father-in-law was kind of pressuring her and that actually came up as well

00:45:47.620 in cross-examination where they said they characterized her as a people pleaser and they

00:45:51.620 said like are you just doing this to make your family happy and she said yeah that's possible

00:45:56.900 you know so yeah she she often says yeah that's possible which has been really damaging to her case

00:46:03.620 right they've kind of like taken and that's the other thing that's interesting too is that you

00:46:07.460 have five really high paid and like highly competent defense lawyers so it's like a five on one the best

00:46:14.660 yeah yeah it's the best of the best and so that's why i'm quite sympathetic now like my at first i thought

00:46:20.180 that the defendants were all innocent for sure and as the trial has progressed i've felt less and less

00:46:24.980 that that's would you say that's comparable to like the oj trial like they just have stacked lawyers and

00:46:29.780 yeah i don't know what her is her lawyer comparable to that or or no yeah i would say that that is a

00:46:34.340 good comparison or like the coots one again would be another example where like all of the the crown

00:46:39.540 had all of the good lawyers right and the coots guys were kind of like out in the lurch

00:46:45.460 this is yeah what about what about her lawyer though is are they any good yeah very good very

00:46:50.100 competent but she's playing it's like playing speed chess against five people right because all of

00:46:54.820 those defense lawyers are because carlson could be like 500 people at once but yeah yeah but like

00:46:59.300 they all have their own arguments they all have their own theories and so you're playing like five

00:47:03.460 different games at once and that can't possibly be easy it's been a real uphill battle for her as

00:47:07.780 well given that almost all the evidence is witness testimony from a drunk knight seven years ago

00:47:12.900 right like how are you going to prove anything beyond all reasonable doubt when that's all the evidence

00:47:17.220 you have yeah that's tough yeah so i think that she's performed like regardless of the outcome

00:47:22.660 i think she performed really admirably and but do i think this should have gone to trial no not really

00:47:31.860 no well uh well you'll you'll be our resource on that you know for the rest of the trial i'm glad

00:47:37.860 yeah it's i also find interesting how uninteresting it is like everybody thought there was this big

00:47:43.140 raucous gangbang but like a couple guys got like 30 second blowjobs and two guys got like laid in the

00:47:48.580 bathroom and it doesn't sound like any of them were well actually came up in court none of them

00:47:54.500 were particularly good performers short and sweet eh that's what you mean it was supposed to be a

00:48:02.580 there's four guys watching there's a bit of pressure too right like it really was just teenagers

00:48:07.300 awkwardly exploring their sexuality like the goalie for instance he was getting a blowjob for like 30

00:48:12.100 seconds and he's like i actually made eye contact with one of the guys in the room so i like lost my

00:48:16.340 direction of course right it's like it's not like it's not like pornography like a big raucous gangbang

00:48:22.820 or anything right like this is pretty it was pretty lame like the details i shouldn't use that word i

00:48:27.940 mean there's a better word i could use i'm sure it was pretty vanilla and like awkward and yeah do you

00:48:34.500 think the like on july 27th or whatever when the verdict is like how big do you think that news will be

00:48:39.540 i guess it depends on the i think it'll be a nothing burger because even if like he gets guilty on that

00:48:45.380 one count party to an offense i don't think there is a mandatory minimum sexual assault there is

00:48:50.740 right like i think it was really yeah it's like five years prison time or something um but party to

00:48:56.100 an offense i think that five hundred dollar fine like after yeah yeah like a couple like two weeks

00:49:01.060 of community service ridiculous after the bigger news story the bigger news story will be if somebody

00:49:06.820 signs one of the players that that's because the canadians care more but like i was just saying

00:49:11.700 about the sports thing you're innocent until proven guilty not only that these people are

00:49:15.380 innocent like proven innocent and then they can't get signed that would be bullshit i would be if i

00:49:21.780 were in their shoes like i went through seven year goddamn trial prove myself innocent and you won't sign

00:49:26.500 me crazy yeah they worked their whole lives to be in the nhl this is no like small feat yeah for sure that

00:49:34.500 is very true i wonder yeah like because really the government has no place in telling people

00:49:41.140 what two consenting adults can and cannot do but you yeah i don't know at the same time i think

00:49:46.660 inviting five people well it was like 10 people at one point mind you this is also important detail

00:49:53.060 most of them came in because they wanted pizza which if you know like i think we're all young enough

00:49:58.500 to remember like what it was like to be a 19 year old boy pizza is a very compelling reason to do

00:50:02.820 anything it still is as far as yeah man if you got i'm there yeah i just gotta i just gotta double

00:50:08.660 check the rooms i'm going into i guess so this one player that the splits guy i mean as far as i'm

00:50:14.820 aware he just came in for pizza and everyone's like do the splits footer and he did the splits over

00:50:20.180 and he walked out seven years on trial for that seven years like his whole career is over yeah that's so crazy to me

Off the Record - June 15, 2025

Most finance ministers fail taxpayer report card ｜ Off The Record

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