Order of Man - 086： Rich Roll ｜ Pursuing the Warrior Path

00:00:00.000 We all have a path to travel on in this life. Some of us have found it and others are still

00:00:04.120 searching for it, but I can tell you that the pursuit of that path is one of the most rewarding

00:00:07.900 experiences of my life. I know that my guest today, Rich Roll, would agree. We talk about

00:00:12.600 the power that comes from stepping outside of your comfort zone, how to keep driving in the

00:00:16.420 face of adversity, what to expect when you break free of society's norms, and how you can pursue

00:00:21.160 your warrior path. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and

00:00:26.960 boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:33.040 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who

00:00:39.820 you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can

00:00:45.700 call yourself a man. Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and founder

00:00:50.900 of Order of Man. Whether this is the first time that you've listened to the show or you've been

00:00:54.140 a long-time listener, I want to welcome you to the Manly's podcast available. Each week,

00:00:58.680 guys, I interview the world's most successful men on the topics of self-defense and leadership,

00:01:03.480 fitness, nutrition, communication, psychology, and every other topic that you want to address,

00:01:08.600 and today is no different. I have the one and only Rich Roll on today, but before I introduce

00:01:14.100 you to him, I do want to talk with you about a topic completely unrelated for a minute. I want

00:01:18.240 to introduce you to my friends and the show sponsor, Sheath Underwear. I never thought,

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00:01:55.400 Now with all that said and done, I do want to introduce you to my guest today. Mr. Rich Roll

00:01:59.160 Rich is a two-time top finisher at the Ultraman world championship and first person to complete

00:02:03.900 the Epic five, which is five Ironman distance triathlons on five Hawaiian islands in under

00:02:09.080 a week. His inspirational memoir, finding ultra rejecting middle age, becoming one of the world's

00:02:13.640 fittest men and discovering myself was an Amazon number one bestseller and has inspired

00:02:18.000 thousands of people across the planet to embrace his plant-based diet. Rich is a frequent guest

00:02:24.120 on CNN. He was named one of the 25 fittest men in the world by men's fitness and is the

00:02:28.860 host of the ritual podcast topping the charts. Always guys on iTunes. He's also a graduate

00:02:33.320 of Stanford university and Cornell law school, and he is inspiring people worldwide as a transformative

00:02:38.000 example of healthy living. He also wrote a cookbook and lifestyle guide, the plant power

00:02:42.200 way. And he hosts a video course, the ultimate guide to plant-based nutrition and the art of

00:02:46.640 living with purpose. Rich, what's going on, brother? Thanks for joining me on the show

00:02:51.440 today. Hey Ryan. So great to be with you today. Thanks for having me. You bet. You bet. I know

00:02:56.700 a lot of the guys are going to be excited to hear from you. I want to start most of the guys

00:02:59.680 that are listening to this probably are familiar with you and your podcast and some of the things

00:03:02.720 you're doing, but I would be really interested to hear your take on what it means to be an ultra

00:03:06.800 endurance athlete and ultra. Well, uh, first of all, I would say that it suits me well because

00:03:12.800 I'm not very fast, but I can go all day. So it's the perfect, uh, sport and outlet for me, but you

00:03:19.020 know, ultra endurance sports are, are very much, um, of course they're, you know, very enduring,

00:03:24.920 uh, endurance related fitness and, uh, you know, fitness challenges, but there's a huge mental game

00:03:31.780 that goes into ultra endurance. Cause at some point when you're on the third day of a five day

00:03:36.760 adventure, or, you know, at the end of a, you know, a 12 hour, uh, event, it really becomes

00:03:43.600 about where your head is at. Uh, it transcends the kind of physical aspect of sport in that regard.

00:03:49.280 And, and that's what attracts me to it. It really strips you down to who you are at your very core and

00:03:54.680 forces you to kind of confront, uh, some things emotionally. And I see it really as a template for

00:04:01.420 personal growth. Yeah, I can definitely see that. I've gone through some experiences as well. I

00:04:06.480 don't, I don't think anything to the level that you are, but I can attest that the mental game is

00:04:09.880 definitely a big component of this. What are some of the things that you maybe have learned about

00:04:14.140 yourself through pushing yourself through some of these long type events that you've been doing?

00:04:18.620 I mean, I think the main thing that I've, that I've realized is that, is that I'm capable of a lot

00:04:23.760 more than I allow myself to believe. And I think that's a universal thing. I think we all limit

00:04:28.940 ourselves in, in, in certain ways. Uh, and when you really put yourself on the line and, and stretch

00:04:35.200 the boundaries of what you think you're capable of and, and push through, through those, it's just

00:04:40.480 an amazing experience and helping you connect with the innate capacity that we all have these

00:04:46.880 reservoirs of, of human potential that extend far beyond athletic performance to every area of our

00:04:53.280 life. So for me, you know, ultra endurance sports has been this kind of foundational aspect, uh, you

00:04:59.700 know, kind of a growth, a growth incubator for every area of my life from relationships to career

00:05:07.040 to, you know, you name it. Is that because what's required of you in, in a, in a, uh, an event is very

00:05:14.400 similar to what might be required of you in some other aspect of life, like relationships, for example,

00:05:18.240 like you mentioned. Yeah, I think it's, it just stretches you, you know what I mean? And, and,

00:05:22.880 and you get, you have to get used to what it feels like to be uncomfortable and, and acclimate to that.

00:05:28.880 And it's that place where you allow the growth to occur, right? So once you, you know, when you get

00:05:35.540 used to doing these crazy races, then you get used to being uncomfortable and, you know, whether it's

00:05:41.100 discomfort in a relationship or a career situation, the more you can acclimate to that discomfort,

00:05:47.520 uh, the more I think you are prone to, or open to trying new things and pushing yourself and in

00:05:54.300 various ways that, uh, perhaps extend beyond your current comfort zone. Why is it then that,

00:06:01.160 that we limit ourselves? Because I, you're speaking my language here and I completely agree. And I've

00:06:05.020 done this for myself as well, is that I feel like there's been points in my life where I've

00:06:09.040 reached plateaus that maybe I'm even comfortable with. Why do we as a species limit ourselves and our

00:06:14.500 potential that we have? You talk about reservoirs of human potential. What does

00:06:17.480 that actually look like?

00:06:18.280 Well, I think that, that it's a myriad of factors. I mean, I think social pressures and

00:06:23.260 just the way that we're all raised is, is probably a predominant, you know, factor in that, uh, you

00:06:29.580 know, why are you pursuing the career that you're pursuing? Is it because, uh, you know, it's what

00:06:34.940 your dad did or what your friends are doing or what your teachers in school told you was a good

00:06:39.800 thing to do? Uh, you know what I mean? I think so many of us are way more on autopilot than

00:06:47.200 than we believe just because of the gestalt of, you know, the life that we live in, you

00:06:53.120 know, modern society. Uh, and so I think it takes, it takes courage and some balls to kind

00:06:58.800 of step outside of that, or at least to question it. You know, I know I'm a former corporate

00:07:03.780 lawyer. I lived that life of social expectations and, and, and all of that for many, many, many

00:07:09.880 years and did it, you know, without thinking about it for a long time until I just reached

00:07:15.420 a crisis point with it and couldn't do it any longer. It was like, you know, pain was

00:07:18.960 my motivator to look outside the box. And, and when you step outside it, it's not always

00:07:24.440 a crowd pleaser. You know, it's, it's the kind of thing where people look at you differently

00:07:29.060 or they question what you're doing, question your sanity, all these sorts of things. And I

00:07:33.220 think those externalities play a factor in keeping all of us kind of in line and in our

00:07:38.960 lane, you know, and it's not until you step outside of it that you realize just how powerful

00:07:43.160 those forces are. So, you know, I always tell people to, to experiment with stepping outside

00:07:49.160 of, of whatever your comfort zone is. And that doesn't mean that it's easy, but I think

00:07:53.860 it's a, you know, it's a good way to, to connect with who you really are. You know, what, what

00:07:59.340 is it that, that gets you excited in the morning and, and, you know, wants you, you know, gets

00:08:05.100 you to a place where you want to embrace your day and your life in a, in, in a new and more

00:08:09.680 personally meaningful way. And I think if you're just kind of going about your day, the

00:08:14.320 way you always do, uh, it's really hard to connect with that.

00:08:18.460 Sure. That makes sense. Why do you think society, or maybe it's not even society, but

00:08:22.900 what are your thoughts about the reason that we are, for lack of a better term, told to stay

00:08:27.520 inside of our lane and do what we're told or conform and what that actually looks like?

00:08:31.360 Wow. That's like a big kind of meta question, you know, you know, I think it's just, I think

00:08:37.460 it goes hand in hand with, with the way society is structured. You know, it's, it's a, you know,

00:08:44.320 there are control systems in place and, you know, many institutions that reinforce the status

00:08:51.580 quo, whether it's, you know, Oh, you go to college when you graduate high school, because

00:08:56.420 that's just what you do. Uh, you know, how many people question that, you know, we just say,

00:09:01.360 well, that's what, if you want to, if you want a decent career, that's what you got to

00:09:04.560 do. Well, maybe not, you know what I mean? What is right for you? Uh, college is certainly,

00:09:09.380 you know, a fantastic experience for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that it's

00:09:13.660 for everybody, you know? So I just think that, you know, it's, you pay your taxes and you go

00:09:18.680 to your, you try to get the best job and you try to get good grades. All of these things

00:09:22.220 are just part of how we live our lives. Um, I, you know, what created those, I mean, you'd

00:09:27.020 have to go back historically and anthropologically into the very fabric of how, you know, governments

00:09:33.180 and religions and these institutions that really kind of structure how we live were, were

00:09:38.220 created initially to keep, you know, to maintain control over people for lack of a better phrase.

00:09:45.040 Right. So, um, the more you can kind of question those paradigms, I think the more likely you are

00:09:52.180 to really be able to take stock and inventory of what is important to you.

00:09:57.900 It sounds like you came to a conclusion in your own life. You know, you're, you're an attorney and

00:10:02.260 you've got this path that you're on that again, society has probably told you that this is the

00:10:06.040 way to do it. But you talk about the pain that you felt as well. How did that manifest itself for

00:10:10.540 you? Uh, well, it was both physical, emotional, and, and spiritual. You know, I was a guy who always

00:10:17.920 chased the American dream. You know, I, I did well in high school. I was a standout athlete in high

00:10:24.200 school. I was a nationally ranked swimmer and recruited at colleges all over the country.

00:10:28.520 I ended up going to Stanford and swimming on two NCAA championship teams. While I was there,

00:10:33.840 I went to law school at Cornell. Like I played the game well and ended up at a prestigious Los Angeles

00:10:40.640 law firm on the partnership track. And my whole life was kind of oriented around chasing that,

00:10:45.840 you know, climb the corporate ladder, show up early, work late, you know, go the extra mile.

00:10:51.200 And the implicit promise, of course, at the end of that rainbow, isn't just, you know, financial,

00:10:57.220 uh, you know, wellbeing, uh, and security, but this implicit promise of satisfaction and happiness.

00:11:05.020 And I wasn't finding that, you know, I was looking around at the law firm where I worked and realized

00:11:10.600 I didn't aspire to have the lives of any of the people that I was working with. And

00:11:15.520 and I was sort of compensating for my discontent in my professional career by

00:11:20.920 accumulating stuff. I couldn't afford, you know, buying a fancy car and all that kind of stuff. But

00:11:26.240 that hole in my spirit just couldn't be filled that way. Right. So I had to have like an existential

00:11:33.340 crisis over, you know, how I was living. And, and as I was sort of mulling that over, I had a bit of a

00:11:41.140 health scare because I gained 50 pounds. I was a junk food addict. I was medicating my emotions

00:11:46.280 through food. And late one night, shortly before I turned 40, it all kind of came to a head. It was

00:11:52.300 like this perfect storm where my existential crisis crashed into, you know, my lack of wellbeing. And I

00:11:59.120 was defeated by a simple flight of stairs. You know, I'd been at one time a world ranked swimmer

00:12:04.460 and couldn't make it up a simple flight of stairs without pausing, you know, winded tightness in my

00:12:09.980 chest and really fear of being on the precipice of having a heart attack. And it was a very specific

00:12:14.980 moment in which I realized, like, I just couldn't live the way I was living anymore. And that began

00:12:20.040 my journey, which was hardly an overnight success story, but my journey towards trying to find a way

00:12:25.880 to live more meaningfully and, and, you know, live healthy and find a way to be energized so that I

00:12:32.540 could enjoy my life. Do you think that it has to come to a point? I mean, your, your stories is

00:12:37.720 sounding very familiar with my story as well. And I think there's a lot of parallels. Do you think it

00:12:41.720 has to come to this point of where we just, that pain is so unbearable or intolerable that we'd change

00:12:47.300 or can we, do we have the ability, I guess, as humans to change before things get horrible?

00:12:53.200 Well, we all have a choice in every decision that we make, every thought we entertain, every action

00:12:58.960 we undertake to, uh, you know, to make a better choice than, than what we have been doing. I mean,

00:13:04.000 that's available to us at all times with everything, you know, in every moment of every day.

00:13:10.640 Unfortunately, it's very difficult because of the way human beings are wired and, you know, pain is

00:13:15.940 the ultimate motivator. In my experience, it's the one thing that gets people to really change the

00:13:21.780 things they don't want to let go of. Um, it's just more difficult to do it when you don't have that

00:13:27.540 kind of experience, but it's certainly possible. It's just not, I think it's just a, it's a, it's

00:13:33.140 taller mountain to climb. Yeah, definitely. And I think too many men probably recognize something

00:13:39.460 needs to change, but maybe the pain isn't present enough or the fear of actually making that change

00:13:46.020 is keeping them from moving forward. What's your experience with that? Right. I mean, if that pain

00:13:50.900 that you're experiencing is just a low grade hum, it's just a lot easier to continue down the path that

00:13:56.440 you've chosen, right? Like how, you know, until things get, get really shaken up, you know, shook

00:14:02.840 up, you know, most people don't like to, uh, look at themselves honestly in the mirror and do a really

00:14:09.300 hardcore inventory of how they're living. You know, I think most people have good values and are

00:14:15.340 compassionate. Uh, but we all take actions throughout our day that are probably at odds with the person

00:14:20.420 that we wish we were, or think that we could be, or maybe are at our core. So it's about bringing

00:14:27.240 your actions in line with those values. And, you know, I don't have the magic bullet to doing that,

00:14:32.980 but I think the more honest you can be with yourself about who you are and what you're doing,

00:14:37.680 uh, that's, that's the way to kind of crack the seal and start digging into it.

00:14:42.820 I imagine exercise has always been an outlet for you because of your, your history with swimming and

00:14:48.340 everything else. How did you get into these endurance events? Is that something you decided

00:14:52.320 to do as a hobby or is this something you say, Hey, this is how I'm going to change my life.

00:14:56.220 What did that look like? Well, what happened was, yeah, I had been, you know, obviously very active.

00:15:01.200 I was a swimmer in high school and college. Uh, but you know, I let that go when I went to law school

00:15:05.280 and became a lawyer, it just became about, you know, my career and I'd really let go of that aspect of

00:15:11.500 myself. And, and, you know, that part of me that, that had always brought me a lot of joy. Uh, and so

00:15:19.000 what happened was in the wake of that staircase episode, I started playing around with diet, uh,

00:15:25.060 and trying to find a way of eating that would be healthier and, and would allow me to basically,

00:15:30.900 you know, lose this gut that I, you know, put on around the midsection and be, and really just be

00:15:36.120 able to enjoy my children at their energy level. I have four kids, uh, and I ended up adopting a 100%

00:15:42.600 plant-based diet, a vegan diet. Uh, and it agreed with me in a pretty dramatic way. You know, it was

00:15:49.120 pretty, it was pretty incredible how quickly, uh, my body started to feel better and my vitality, uh,

00:15:58.300 you know, returned to me. Um, and that gave me the energy to once again, go outside and start moving

00:16:05.240 my body once again, and, and really connecting with that lost part of myself that, like I said

00:16:10.360 earlier, you know, it brought me so much happiness. So it wasn't that I made this decision. I'm going

00:16:15.240 to be this ultra endurance athlete, or even return to being competitive in any regard. It was really

00:16:19.820 just a way of me connecting with myself in a very tactile, you know, and physical way, uh, that I,

00:16:26.580 that had gotten away from me, but in a very short period of time, like I lost all the weight and I

00:16:31.220 started to feel fantastic. And every day I was able to run faster and run further. And my body

00:16:36.880 was repairing itself and in a really expedited way, something I hadn't even experienced when I

00:16:41.400 was swimming in college. And, and, and I was just struck by the incredible resiliency of the human

00:16:48.160 body to, you know, to heal if treated properly, you know, food really is medicine. And it was so

00:16:54.880 profound that it kind of led me to this question about my own, uh, my own potential, right? Like

00:17:01.740 what am I truly capable of? If, if in a matter of three or four months I could change so drastically

00:17:06.560 physically, then, you know, what am I overlooking in my life that, you know, in areas where I have

00:17:12.520 more capacity than perhaps I originally imagined. And it kind of became this obsession of trying to

00:17:18.280 figure out how to test the outer limits of, of my capabilities, emotionally, mentally, spiritually,

00:17:23.860 physically. And that's what led me to ultra endurance. Cause it just seemed like this

00:17:28.160 incredible template for exploring that. Um, and that's how I got involved in those races.

00:17:34.020 It was really, it wasn't about like trying to win a race or how fast I could go. It was really

00:17:39.740 an exploration of self that, you know, in a, in a very spiritual way, I would say.

00:17:44.840 What was one of the first events that you did that really tested yourself that really pushed

00:17:48.720 you outside of that comfort zone?

00:17:49.900 Yeah. So the first thing I did was, uh, this race called Ultraman in 2008. And that was about 0.95

00:17:55.620 two years after, uh, this staircase incident. And after about only, only seven months of real

00:18:02.440 rigorous training, but the Ultraman is a, the Ultraman world championships is a double Ironman

00:18:08.260 distance triathlon. It's 320 miles that over, over three days you circumnavigate the entire big

00:18:15.740 island of Hawaii. So the first day is a 6.2 mile swim followed by a 90 mile bike. And then the second

00:18:23.800 day you race your bike 171 miles. And the third day you run 52.4 miles of double marathon.

00:18:31.780 Oh my goodness. 0.94

00:18:32.820 So it's a ridiculous event. Uh, and I went into that in 2008, you know, not that well prepared and,

00:18:39.300 and, and really not desiring to be competitive. I just wanted to finish it and have an experience,

00:18:43.880 but I ended up being the second fastest American and I finished 11th overall in that race. And

00:18:49.760 that's when I realized, Oh, I have like a facility for this. Like I want to, you know, I hadn't,

00:18:54.420 I had a great experience, but I also didn't think that I had answered that question that I'd set out

00:18:59.320 for myself about the perimeter of my capabilities. Cause I thought that I could do more and go faster

00:19:05.480 and be better. And so I just sort of continued. And I went back to that race the following year. 0.94

00:19:10.520 I was the fastest American, uh, and sixth overall, despite a bike crash that took me out of,

00:19:16.400 out of contention for like an hour and a swollen knee. And it's a whole long story,

00:19:21.360 but I didn't think I was even going to finish. I was leading the race by 10 minutes after the first

00:19:25.160 day, but things kind of fell apart after that. But anyway, but you still made up that ground.

00:19:29.900 It sounds like some of the ground, some of the grounds. Yeah. But, but you know, it's,

00:19:34.320 it's as an athlete, if everything goes your way, you don't learn that much about yourself. And,

00:19:40.040 you know, like I said, I got into it to, to really connect with myself in a deep and profound way. 0.99

00:19:44.620 And, you know, when everything goes to shit, then you have to really, you're forced to 0.97

00:19:49.200 reckon with yourself and make decisions. And I think those are what reveal character. 0.97

00:19:54.800 And that experience gave me everything that I was looking for and more. So I wouldn't

00:19:59.140 change anything about it.

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00:20:55.460 can thank me later. Now, let me get back to my interview with Rich.

00:20:58.420 Rich, what does your team look like at that point? I mean, is this something that you're

00:21:03.380 basically on your own? You're doing this thing. What does your support unit look like around you?

00:21:06.960 Yeah. So Ultraman is this very interesting race. It's been around for, I don't know,

00:21:12.440 25 years or something like that, but it's unlike Ironman. There's no sponsor dollars. There's no

00:21:18.100 prize money. There's no media coverage. They don't even close the roads during the race. So you're

00:21:22.900 cycling in traffic. So it's very old school in that regard. And I think it keeps it really pure and

00:21:29.480 it's beautiful in that respect. But every athlete has to bring their own crew with them. So every

00:21:36.280 athlete is crew supported. You have your crew in a minivan that follows you around, that's got spare

00:21:43.040 bike parts and all your gear and your nutrition and all of that. And they kind of follow you and feed you

00:21:48.100 and take care of you. So my crew in 2009 was my wife and my two boys.

00:21:54.780 How old were your boys at the time?

00:21:56.900 Let's see, 2009. So that would have been, that was seven years ago. So like, you know, young, like

00:22:03.320 14 and 12, something like that.

00:22:06.000 Okay. Yeah, sure. Sure. And what, and what about, uh, so that's the support unit with, with your racing,

00:22:11.560 but what about even just getting into this? I mean, there are other guys doing this with you. Do you

00:22:15.320 have a group of, of men or mentors? What does this look like outside of just the racing itself?

00:22:20.240 Yeah, sure. So I hired a coach. Um, that's the first thing I did because there's no way you can

00:22:25.180 tackle something like this without somebody who understands the landscape better than you. And,

00:22:29.820 you know, I was hardly, uh, you know, an expert triathlete. I'd never really owned a bike before

00:22:35.460 my 40th birthday. So this was all new to me, despite, you know, despite a career as a swimmer,

00:22:40.260 like I knew how to train and all of that, but, you know, I needed somebody who really understood

00:22:44.680 how to prepare for something like this. So I think it's really important to have somebody like that

00:22:48.780 in your life for, you know, all the various aspects of what you're trying to excel in. But

00:22:53.640 anyway, you know, he created a program for me and, and, you know, so he was my main guy. Most of my

00:22:59.460 training was by myself because nobody else was interested in going out for a six hour run with

00:23:05.040 me. I bet that was hard to find. Um, but you know, I, I enjoy, I enjoy training alone too. It's that

00:23:11.440 time with myself. And like I said, you know, this was a, this was a process of really connecting with

00:23:16.560 myself and, and, you know, during this period of time, it's not like I had sorted out

00:23:20.520 my existential crisis completely. And so I needed that bandwidth to really work on, you know,

00:23:27.760 ponder and meditate on the other areas of my life and how I could change them.

00:23:32.460 So are you still a practicing attorney then at this point when you first did this race?

00:23:36.480 Yeah. Uh, yeah. I practiced up until 2012. So, you know, juggled lots of things. I mean,

00:23:42.380 I was training, I was raising kids. I was a husband, I was practicing law. I was training

00:23:48.540 for these races and, and, you know, for perspective, I mean, training for Ultraman

00:23:52.580 was like a job. I mean, we're talking 20, 25 hours a week of training. So at the time I had my own

00:23:59.640 law firm though. So it's not like I had to show up for a boss. Like I could sort of make my own

00:24:04.740 hours and orient, you know, my professional career around the training so I could make it all work.

00:24:10.060 But then, you know, even in, you know, in 2010, I did something called Epic Five where I did five

00:24:14.400 Ironmans on five Hawaiian islands in under a week. And I went back to Ultraman in 2011. And when I

00:24:20.120 was training for that, in addition to, you know, being a parent and a husband and a lawyer, I was

00:24:25.940 also writing my first book, Finding Ultra. So, you know, I was juggling lots of different stuff at the

00:24:31.380 same time. How did you find time for yourself? This is a question that I get from a lot of guys

00:24:36.380 that, that have goals or ambitions or things they want to even do for themselves. How did you

00:24:40.460 personally find the time and then be able to explain that to your family and how this was all

00:24:45.840 going to go down and work for you? Well, I had the support of my wife. You know, she understood

00:24:50.240 the importance and the significance of what I was trying to do, not just in the athletic context,

00:24:56.220 but she understood that it was important to me to help me figure out what, you know, where I was

00:25:01.180 headed in my life. And so I'm very grateful to have her support. Like without that, I couldn't have

00:25:06.200 done it. Right. In terms of the time allotment and making time, you know, I think if something's

00:25:11.500 important to you, you make time. It's really a question. It's not a question of not having time.

00:25:15.780 It's really a question of priorities. You know, people say to me all the time, well, I would do this

00:25:19.980 or that, but I don't have time and you don't understand my life. And, you know, look, like I said,

00:25:24.860 I wrote a book, I practiced law. I was a parent and trained for Ultraman at the same time. Like, you

00:25:29.580 know, if you, if it means enough to you, you will find a way. And in order for me to kind of structure

00:25:35.380 my life around maximizing my potential for success in these goals that I was pursuing, I had to get

00:25:42.220 really honest with myself about how I was spending my time. And so what I did to kind of kick that off

00:25:48.960 was I started journaling how I spent my time throughout over a period of a week. And I broke

00:25:55.960 it down into 15 minute increments just to give me like a really objective, honest perspective on

00:26:01.680 what I was actually doing. Cause I think we walk around and we're like, Oh, I don't have any free

00:26:05.900 time. Yeah. We think we're busy, but yeah. Oh, wow. I spent 45 minutes on Facebook. And then,

00:26:11.280 you know, I watched this TV show at night and, you know, I, I had this lunch where I had to drive

00:26:17.520 across town and meet with this guy and yeah, it was work related, but you know, I knew it wasn't

00:26:21.840 going to lead to any new business and it was kind of a wank, you know, like, sure. So I get that. So,

00:26:28.140 you know, I looked for opportunities to streamline. So, you know, television at night had to go by the

00:26:32.700 wayside, no more screwing around on the internet, uh, meetings that could be pushed to phone calls.

00:26:37.820 I did that. And, you know, phone calls, I could be pushed to email. I did that like anywhere where

00:26:42.400 I could strip down and strip away stuff that was not moving me forward in the way that I wanted to

00:26:48.000 had to get cut. And when I cut all those, I realized I had a lot more time than, than I

00:26:54.080 originally realized. And I think, you know, it's a great experiment that anybody can try out and check

00:26:59.700 out. And I think you'll be surprised when, uh, you get down to the brass tacks of how we actually are

00:27:05.920 spending our time. Yeah. I bet that's pretty insightful. How did, what type of resistance

00:27:10.220 did you run into as you started to cut these things out? Cause I can hear guys thinking right

00:27:13.640 now, well, if I cut my meetings out or if I, I move a phone call to an email, maybe clients will

00:27:18.600 be disappointed. Was the resistance that you came up against that you had to overcome?

00:27:22.060 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can remember training, like being on my bike and my phone would ring

00:27:26.780 and I'd have to pull over and like negotiate a deal, you know, for one of my clients. And I would be

00:27:32.960 thinking like, if they could see what I was doing right now, I'm in my bike kit, you know, on the

00:27:37.980 side of the road somewhere in the middle of nowhere, like they would, they would all fire me. Like I

00:27:41.960 thought I was going to lose all my clients, you know, but I realized like, as long as the work got

00:27:46.660 done, nobody really cared, you know? And so I, I, I kept very unconventional hours, but I was very

00:27:52.800 responsible on making sure that I'd met all my deadlines. And like I said, I was self-employed. So I

00:27:56.940 understand that it was, you know, I had more flexibility in doing that with most people, but

00:28:01.200 you know, I did come up with against a lot of resistance. I think anytime you step outside

00:28:05.440 the box, like I said earlier, that's going to happen. So, you know, a lot of my friends were

00:28:10.160 like, what are you doing? You're like vegan now. What does that mean? Like you're, you know,

00:28:14.340 you're a weirdo and, and, oh, you're going to, you're going to like do this crazy race. Like 1.00

00:28:18.700 you're being irresponsible. Like, why don't you just, you know, work, you know, you should be getting

00:28:23.260 more clients. And, you know, we, we suffered some financial setbacks as a result of this, you know,

00:28:28.860 it was not easy at all. You know, that's why I call it the warrior path. Like, you know,

00:28:34.580 just because you have this, if you have an outlandish goal, don't expect everybody to line

00:28:39.220 up behind you and support you. It doesn't work that way. So it requires, you know, a great deal

00:28:44.100 of conviction. And I think that forces you to really, uh, um, gird your loins and, and invest in

00:28:51.880 yourself and, and, and your vision for, you know, what you want your life to look like.

00:28:57.280 When you, when people ask you what you do now, I mean, it's easy when you were an attorney and a

00:29:01.120 practicing attorney, that's an easy answer. What do you tell them now?

00:29:04.320 Yeah. I always struggle with that. You know, I have the great luxury of being able to do a lot

00:29:08.080 of things and it doesn't, it, you know, it's a, it's a career that's of my own styling and design,

00:29:13.860 and it doesn't fit into any particular box. So often I'll answer the question depending upon who my

00:29:18.860 audience is. Like usually I just say writer, you know, cause I've written two books. So I'll say that,

00:29:23.560 but you know, or I hate like lifestyle entrepreneur to sound so flaky. Like I, I never say that. I'll

00:29:30.000 just say, you know, wellness advocate or, you know, athlete writers, you know, I don't know.

00:29:34.680 I, I, I don't have the perfect answer to that.

00:29:37.160 Yeah. I'm curious because those are questions I get and I, and, and I usually don't even

00:29:41.480 really like to answer that question all too often just because I don't know how to address it.

00:29:45.780 When did you decide to make the leap from practicing full time to the work that you're doing now?

00:29:50.480 Yeah. So, uh, I, I officially let go of practicing law completely the day that my first book came

00:29:57.300 out, finding ultra. And it was a, it was a trepidatious decision because I didn't have that

00:30:03.220 much money in the bank and was unsure of what the future would bring. But, um, I knew that if I

00:30:09.580 continue to straddle two different worlds that I was holding myself back. And at some point, you know,

00:30:14.540 you got to take a leap of faith and you got to jump. And so, uh, it was just time, you know,

00:30:19.720 and, and again, I had, I had, I struggled for quite some time. It wasn't long after that,

00:30:24.320 that I started the podcast and I did the podcast for two years before, you know, the audience was

00:30:29.320 large enough to monetize it and it became like a business. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I'd been kind of

00:30:35.680 slowly letting go of practicing law, but you know, there was that temptation. Well, I'll just keep my

00:30:40.780 bar membership active and, you know, if somebody calls and I can do a deal and make some easy money,

00:30:45.100 but I knew I had to really just let it go. If I wanted to fully actualize into this new,

00:30:50.480 you know, incarnation of, of who I wanted to be and how I wanted to live.

00:30:54.860 That's a great response, but I would say, sorry to interrupt, but I would say, you know,

00:30:59.720 people, there's this idea like, Oh, you just, if you look me up on the internet, it kind of makes

00:31:04.480 it sound like it all happened really quickly. And it was, it was, it wasn't, it was like a 12 year

00:31:09.200 process of slowly evolving and changing. Um, you know, I didn't quit my job right away. I held onto

00:31:16.420 my law career probably longer than I should have. And I get kind of annoyed, you know, in this sort

00:31:22.740 of self-help space when people are just encouraged to like, you know, quit their job and chase their

00:31:27.740 passions. Like you have to have some grounding over that. I think, yes, at some point you have to

00:31:32.600 take a leap of faith, but there are, you know, responsible ways of doing it, or at least, you know,

00:31:37.460 more responsible ways of doing it that don't involve you just being, you know, completely,

00:31:41.800 uh, you know, out of your mind when you, when you, when you make that leap without any plan

00:31:47.580 whatsoever. Well, I know because I hear that now. And I think, is that how you did it? Well,

00:31:51.580 no, I didn't do it that way, but yet here you are telling other people to do it this way. So I can see,

00:31:56.020 see why that would be frustrating to hear. Yeah. So what have you learned about yourself over this?

00:32:00.420 Obviously you've changed physically. I mean, that that's a obviously noticeable, uh, change for

00:32:05.200 yourself, but what about mentally, emotionally, what does that look like now that you've really

00:32:09.240 started to pursue your passion, get in health, uh, live this vegan lifestyle. And then of course,

00:32:12.800 the ultra endurance events that you're participating in the thing I've learned. Well, like I said, I

00:32:17.040 think, you know, there's a couple sort of cornerstones of that. The first I already mentioned,

00:32:20.940 which is that, you know, we're all capable of much more than we allow ourselves to, to believe.

00:32:25.880 The second being that, you know, food is medicine, uh, and there's so much conventional wisdom

00:32:31.660 out there about diet and nutrition that is flawed and incorrect. And that leads me to

00:32:36.080 question other, uh, conventional wisdom paradigms across the board and, and be more skeptical about

00:32:43.480 the information that we digest and be more critical about where it comes from and, and, you know, how it

00:32:49.700 came to be. Uh, and the other thing, and this is a, you know, kind of the, maybe the biggest point

00:32:54.660 is that, you know, I, I have realized that, that happiness is the wrong word, but living a life,

00:33:01.240 a satisfying life of meaning for me comes from being of service. And when I orient my life around

00:33:09.020 being of service, whether it's through a book or a podcast or, um, you know, just helping somebody

00:33:14.140 out in need, uh, that, uh, not only is my life better and not only does my life flow better and

00:33:21.640 function better, but I'm just a happier person. So, you know, all of these rules and ideas that I had

00:33:28.860 in my previous life about how to be happy, which is, you know, climb the corporate ladder and make

00:33:35.000 the most money you can and try to have financial security and all of that, all that did was make

00:33:39.480 me very unhappy and it was very self-serving. And I think when I get out of myself and just try to

00:33:45.580 be available to other people and to serve them to the best of my abilities,

00:33:49.680 that's what transformed my life. So it's, it's, for me, it's less about living my life, you know,

00:33:55.560 living according to my passion. And it's about how can I be of service to others?

00:34:01.200 What do you say to the man who might say as a response to that, I would love to serve. I would

00:34:06.840 love to follow my passion. I would love to do these things for other people, but right now,

00:34:10.720 you know, I'm not even barely putting food on the table or I'm living paycheck to paycheck.

00:34:13.980 What do you say to a guy like that?

00:34:15.300 Well, I'm compassionate to that person and I get it. You know, I understand that.

00:34:19.800 And again, I think it goes back to, you know, what we alluded to earlier, which is this is

00:34:25.540 not about just up and quitting your job. This is about trying to enhance the quality of your daily

00:34:30.980 experience. And so if you are working a nine to five and just trying to put food on the table and

00:34:36.040 you don't have a lot of free time, you still have the ability to pick up the phone and check in with

00:34:40.840 an old friend who might be going through a hard time. You still have the ability to carve out 15 minutes

00:34:46.700 to meditate in the morning or to go on a walk or to go for a jog or to do, you know, whatever form of

00:34:52.820 exercise brings you some sense of, uh, you know, contentment in your life. Like we all have these,

00:35:00.080 you know, slivers of opportunity to enhance and improve the quality of our, our moment to moment

00:35:06.720 and day to day existence. So it's about trying to incorporate more of those into your life and

00:35:11.740 being open to where those might lead you. You know what I mean? Like, so if you decide, Hey,

00:35:17.140 you know, I really, you know, I want to be able to help people in this regard, or, you know, I have

00:35:21.080 this hobby that I really like doing. It doesn't put any money on the table, but I enjoy doing it.

00:35:26.120 Well, try to prioritize that a little bit more than maybe you have and be open to where it might lead

00:35:31.840 you. And again, it's not about quitting your job or, you know, just sort of revamping everything.

00:35:36.660 But I think the more you kind of allow yourself, uh, to indulge in these things, I think it starts

00:35:43.060 to shift your trajectory and your perspective and it brings additional new opportunities in,

00:35:48.820 in, into your life over time. Yeah. I think too many men are looking for the entire

00:35:53.780 map to be laid out before them, the roadmap to, you know, from point a to success or fulfillment

00:35:59.060 or satisfaction in their lives. And the reality is, I mean, it only illuminates itself as you take

00:36:04.600 one step at a time in my experience. Yeah. The only step you can take is the next step and

00:36:09.040 everybody wants, you know, to growth hack and they want the overnight, you know, answer and the tell

00:36:14.020 me exactly how do you, how you do this and how do you get from where I am to where I want to be.

00:36:18.720 And only you can answer that it's different for everybody. And the truth of the matter is it

00:36:24.200 doesn't happen overnight, regardless of whatever article you read on the internet or whoever,

00:36:28.880 you know, example you're pointing to as inspiration. Like you have to start unpacking that for

00:36:33.760 yourself. And, you know, in my experience, it's a spiritual journey. Like you cannot give something

00:36:40.180 that you don't have. You have got to connect with who you are. You have got to develop an honest,

00:36:45.960 uh, capacity for self-understanding. And that's the inside work. It begins with meditation. Maybe

00:36:51.820 it's therapy for some people. Maybe it's 12 step for other people. Maybe it's some form of,

00:36:56.880 you know, faith. I don't know. Everybody is different in that regard, but I think you really have to

00:37:01.700 invest in that as a priority, as the number one priority. And that's where you start to get the

00:37:07.740 answers that are going to drive your decision tree. You talked a little bit about finding resources.

00:37:14.160 You talked about a coach, and I think this will definitely help people along the journey. How do

00:37:18.480 you personally decide which information is worthy of consuming and what is not? Because I know that

00:37:24.900 there's a lot of misconception about obviously nutrition, exercise, and just about every area of life.

00:37:29.900 Uh, two things. I mean, first you have to, you know, experiment on yourself. You know, like I said,

00:37:36.000 everybody's different. Um, so you have to find what agrees with you and that, that only happens

00:37:41.340 not through somebody else telling you, but through you having direct experience. So I, I encourage

00:37:47.620 everybody to experiment. The second thing I would say is that I think it's important for everybody to

00:37:53.220 have a board of directors, uh, or a board of advisors. So I have people that I trust and respect

00:38:00.380 that I call or meet with for the various compartments and aspects of my life. There are

00:38:06.760 certain people that I call when I have relationship questions or other people that I call and trust and

00:38:11.300 rely on for business and career advice. And then, you know, I have a coach for my athletic pursuits.

00:38:17.320 They don't have to be professional relationships, uh, and they don't have to be formal mentors.

00:38:24.400 Uh, but I think you need to, you know, seek out and connect with people that you look up to like,

00:38:30.320 Oh, look at this guy. He's been married for 15 years. He seems to be a great dad. He seems happy

00:38:36.480 in his life. Like, what is he doing? It doesn't have to be any, it doesn't have to be Tony Robbins or

00:38:41.160 Gary V is just like anybody in your community. Right. And seek those people out. And, and I think

00:38:48.300 men, you know, have a hard time asking for help. We're in a culture that, uh, stresses that we're

00:38:54.560 supposed to have the answers to everything. And that to ask questions or to say, I don't know is

00:38:59.420 a sign of weakness. And that's a mistake. You know, if you want to grow, if you want to advance,

00:39:05.120 you have to be able to say, I don't know, and ask for help and guidance. And all I know is that,

00:39:12.620 you know, I spent years trying to pretend like I had everything figured out. And all that did was

00:39:17.640 lead to, you know, disaster and misery. And it was when I finally got to the point because of pain

00:39:23.220 that I was able to raise my hand and say, I need help. Or I, you know, can you help me? Uh,

00:39:29.460 that my life started to improve.

00:39:31.300 So valuable and something we talk about as well all the time, because it is so critical that we

00:39:36.180 have those mentors and those, uh, role models and people, like you said, it doesn't have to be

00:39:39.800 formal mentors, but people that we can look up to and bounce ideas off of. So Rich, we're winding

00:39:44.160 down on time. I want to ask you a couple of questions as we do wind down. The first one I

00:39:47.360 prepared you for a little bit, and that is what does it mean to be a man?

00:39:51.220 It's a great question. I'm sure, I'm sure I could, you know, if you asked me this on a different

00:39:56.100 day, I'd probably give you a different answer. I don't know that I have a stock and pat answer to

00:39:59.880 that, but I think that sure that being a man means, uh, living your life in accordance with

00:40:05.800 your values, like walking, whatever talk that you put out there, showing up when you say you're

00:40:10.980 going to show up, like being, um, accountable for your actions and living your life, you know,

00:40:16.460 in accordance with that value set. And I think that that value set and that value set being dictated by

00:40:23.780 your best, most authentic self. So again, it goes back to doing that inside work and really

00:40:29.080 understanding who you are, what your gifts are, what brings satisfaction into your life

00:40:33.840 and, and orienting, you know, and prioritizing your life around those values and taking action

00:40:40.180 on them. Awesome. So powerful and wholeheartedly agree with that. So Rich, I know you've got some

00:40:45.240 things going on. Obviously I want to give the guys a resource and a way to connect with you. And

00:40:48.760 then I think you've got a retreat coming up in early 2017. Will you tell us how to connect with

00:40:52.800 you and learn a little bit more about the things that you have going on? Yeah, sure. So you can

00:40:56.080 find me at richroll.com. That's like my website for everything that I'm doing. My podcast,

00:41:00.780 the Rich Roll podcast is on iTunes. I'm at Rich Roll on Twitter and Instagram, all those places.

00:41:07.840 So I'm pretty easy to track down and, and connect with on the internet. Um, we have a retreat coming

00:41:13.060 up in Western Australia, February 20th through 27th, seven days of life transformation. It's a small

00:41:19.500 group. We're taking 40 people through a pretty intense, uh, week long, uh, excursion. And if you're

00:41:25.360 interested in that, uh, you can find out more information at plantpowerworld.com.

00:41:31.860 Awesome. We'll make sure we link everything up and give the guys the resources we need. Rich,

00:41:35.060 I just want to let you know, I appreciate you. I really appreciate your work, the work you've

00:41:37.880 done on yourself because that's, uh, translated over into helping thousands of other people,

00:41:41.440 myself included. And, uh, it's been an honor to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us

00:41:44.620 today. Yeah. Thanks so much, Ryan. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

00:41:48.460 All right. There you have it guys, Mr. Rich Roll teaching us about how you can chart your own

00:41:52.640 warrior path real briefly. As we wrap things up today, I do want to share three things that I

00:41:56.300 have not yet mentioned. First, make sure you join over 10,000 men. Now guys inside of our

00:42:01.520 closed men's Facebook group by heading to facebook.com slash groups slash order of man

00:42:06.080 second. And this is something I haven't asked for a while. So I do ask that you take a couple of

00:42:09.920 minutes and do this. If you would, please leave us a rating and review on iTunes. This really helps

00:42:14.940 us get the word out about the order of man movement. And then the third thing guys,

00:42:19.140 and I mentioned this every week, make sure you check out our mastermind. This is called

00:42:22.660 the iron council. It's going to help you with three things. It's going to bring accountability

00:42:25.880 to your life. It's going to help you build a band of brothers. And then of course, you're

00:42:28.600 going to get the coaching from me and all of the other guys inside of the group. All of those

00:42:32.260 things are needed when leveling up your relationships and your health and your wealth, your life,

00:42:36.880 any goal that you have, you're going to need those three components. So if you're interested

00:42:39.940 in that, go to order of man.com slash iron council, get registered. I'll shoot you an email

00:42:44.620 as soon as you do with the next steps and get you introduced to the 170 other members

00:42:49.000 inside of the council. Now, guys, with all that said, I look forward to talk with you on Friday

00:42:52.500 for our Friday field notes. I've got a good one for veterans day this week, but until then take

00:42:56.600 action and become the man you were meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

00:43:02.400 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:43:06.100 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - November 08, 2016

086： Rich Roll ｜ Pursuing the Warrior Path

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