Order of Man - 087： Rise of the Sufferfests with Scott Keneally

00:00:00.000 No doubt by now you've either heard of obstacle course racing or you have participated in one.

00:00:04.720 Now, whether you take pleasure in submitting yourself to pain and discomfort or not,

00:00:08.660 I can tell you that these types of races have helped me push beyond my perceived limitations.

00:00:13.200 Today, writer and director Scott Keneally joins me to talk about his new documentary,

00:00:17.640 Rise of the Sufferfest, the driving force behind the incredible growth of obstacle course racing

00:00:22.240 and what you can learn about yourself through participating in a race of your own.

00:00:26.320 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:32.300 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time.

00:00:36.780 You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.

00:00:41.800 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:00:46.000 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:51.340 What is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and founder of Order of Man.

00:00:55.740 And then I want to welcome you to the manliest podcast available.

00:00:59.020 We're here to make you better men. That's it. And that's all.

00:01:01.800 So we talk with some of the most successful people on the planet from Navy SEALs to entrepreneurs to psychologists to world-class athletes

00:01:09.340 and anyone else that has a message for you and one that you need to hear as a man.

00:01:14.320 Now, I've got a great one lined up for you today,

00:01:16.060 and I'm going to be covering a topic that has been instrumental in changing my life.

00:01:19.560 But before I get too much into that, I do want to tell you three ways that you can get more information

00:01:24.560 that we're talking about here on the show today.

00:01:26.520 First, you need to go check out the show notes for this show, which can be done at orderofman.com

00:01:30.360 slash 087.

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00:02:20.960 Now, with all that said and done, I do want to introduce you to our guest today, Scott Keneally.

00:02:24.920 He is the writer and director behind Rise of the Sufferfest,

00:02:28.340 a documentary about the global obstacle course racing phenomenon.

00:02:31.880 It explores the history of the sport, the psychology behind it,

00:02:34.760 the personalities that drive it, and asks what it says about the world we're living in specifically,

00:02:39.100 why everybody seems to suddenly be paying for pain.

00:02:42.660 He is a self-proclaimed beta male, and in 2011, he tackled his first Tough Mudder.

00:02:47.300 His articles and interviews documenting his experiences have been featured on the cover of Outside Magazine,

00:02:52.220 60 Minute Sports, and a speaking engagement at Stanford Business School.

00:02:55.780 Scott is a treatment writer for some of the top directors in music videos and commercials,

00:02:59.100 and over the past 15 years, he has collaborated on videos for Rihanna, Madonna, Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus,

00:03:04.880 and Paris Hilton. But today, he's here to talk with us about his documentary,

00:03:09.140 Rise of the Sufferfest, and why all of us should consider embracing the suffering.

00:03:15.460 Scott, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:03:17.440 Thanks for having me, man.

00:03:18.720 Hey, so I watched your documentary. This was probably a couple weeks ago,

00:03:21.420 and it's pretty cool to have you on the show. What got you into obstacle course racing?

00:03:25.200 Narcissism.

00:03:25.520 Oh, yeah?

00:03:27.160 Yeah, you know, I like writing humor essays, so I thought it'd be very funny to write a story about

00:03:32.080 training up, tackling a paramilitary assault course, and, you know, publishing a confessional 0.99

00:03:37.860 about being a beta male, getting his ass handed to him. 0.99

00:03:41.260 Sure. 0.99

00:03:41.780 And so I, you know, and I also wanted, like, the profile pic.

00:03:45.060 Of course, everybody wants that, right?

00:03:46.260 Yeah, so I had those two objectives in mind when I signed up for my first Tough Mudder in the fall of 2011.

00:03:52.900 And so the Tough Mudder was your first, was that your first event then that you ever done

00:03:56.900 with regards to obstacle course racing?

00:03:58.740 Yeah, absolutely. It was probably like...

00:04:00.160 Have you done anything before? Anything like this at all? Marathon running, anything like that?

00:04:04.160 No, I mountain biked, like, you know, recreationally, and I played football in college,

00:04:09.040 but very, very briefly. So yeah, this was the first thing I'd really done in many, many years.

00:04:14.620 And I spent about a, you know, a good month and a half because I was terrified of Tough Mudder,

00:04:18.860 like, really dedicating myself to training.

00:04:21.440 Yeah. What did that training look like for you?

00:04:23.320 A lot of trail runs. And my wife is a, she teaches high intensity interval training.

00:04:29.300 So I would go to some of her classes, which sucked every single time.

00:04:33.540 Yeah. Get your butt kicked there for sure, right? 1.00

00:04:35.320 Totally. 1.00

00:04:35.780 Yeah. What was the experience like? I've actually never done a Tough Mudder. I've done Spartan races,

00:04:39.740 I've done some endurance events, but I've never done a Tough Mudder. What was that like?

00:04:42.440 Um, terrifying and painful and enlightening at the same time. Uh, there's a lot of fun. I mean,

00:04:49.560 I think of all the different race series that I've done, I have the most fun at Tough Mudders 0.98

00:04:53.660 because I do gravitate towards those psychological challenges because maybe, maybe because they make

00:04:58.300 the most fun bar stories afterwards. Um, sure. So it's, it's, uh, you know, it was beautiful. I loved it,

00:05:05.120 but you know, there were, there are points in the course where I just didn't know if I could make it

00:05:08.400 over this obstacle or through the electrical wires. So it was really challenging and ultimately

00:05:13.620 because of how difficult I found parts of it, it was, uh, really rewarding.

00:05:19.040 Yeah. I think that's the most, that's been the thing for me is that the hardest stuff I've ever

00:05:22.360 done. I did the Spartan Nogogi, which you're probably familiar with is a 60 hour endurance

00:05:26.280 event. Um, I did that several months ago and yeah, the hardest things I've ever done are always the

00:05:31.320 most rewarding. So I definitely can understand that. What was the, you talk about the psychological

00:05:35.480 challenges. Tell me a little bit about that. Uh, well, there's a, you know,

00:05:38.400 so tough mudder will challenge your, let's say fear of tight spaces. So you're crawling through 0.78

00:05:43.340 sewer pipes, um, fear of heights, balance beams over cargo nets, fear of electricity. You know,

00:05:49.280 you're getting shocked, um, ice water, hypothermia, diving into garbage bins filled with ice water and,

00:05:55.720 um, fire. A lot of these things aren't necessarily physical challenges, although they're physical in

00:06:00.580 nature and that you have to move your body through them. But, you know, I think pray a lot more

00:06:05.860 towards people's fears of, of these experiences. Was the electricity the hardest part for you then?

00:06:11.460 I mean, it sounds like maybe that was a difficult challenge. I mean, absolutely. In the sense that

00:06:15.140 this was 2011 before tough mudder was, you know, tough mudder and like very little reference point.

00:06:21.240 I didn't know anyone who had done one. So, and when you're standing there waiting to go and you see

00:06:26.200 people running through and getting shocked and blacking out and like face planting in the mud and

00:06:30.500 screaming, you know, everyone's screaming. It was, you're just like, you're just like, what the hell

00:06:34.120 is going on here? Um, so it was pretty terrifying and it definitely hurt when you, when you ran

00:06:40.020 through there, just like getting stung by bees. And you made it through, you didn't pass out or

00:06:44.140 black out or anything like that? I made it through with an epic profile pic. Yeah. I think I've actually

00:06:49.120 seen, did you have that in the documentary probably, right? Where you actually ran through,

00:06:52.540 was that in 2011? Was that your first event? Yes. So I don't know if the guys know what we're

00:06:56.420 talking about. They probably do just because of the intro, but we're talking about rise of the

00:06:59.420 Sufferfest, which is your documentary. Why, like what prompted you then to create this documentary?

00:07:04.180 I've watched the documentary. I know a little bit about the backstory and what you're doing.

00:07:07.560 Tell me a little bit about that. While I was researching and reporting that humor essay about

00:07:12.960 doing my first Tough Mudder, that piece, that essay landed on the cover of my local alt-weekly,

00:07:17.740 the North Bay Bohemian, North of San Francisco. And, but while I was researching Tough Mudder,

00:07:22.340 I stumbled upon the scandal surrounding its origins. And I flung myself into investigating that

00:07:28.980 researching that. And about a year later, my expose landed on the cover of Outside Magazine.

00:07:35.340 That piece like led to pretty widespread media attention. It was picked up by a bunch of

00:07:40.620 various media outlets and also 60 Minutes. I sent it to a producer over there. They really liked the

00:07:46.120 story and they hired me to help consult on a segment. Interesting.

00:07:49.320 So at this point, I, I felt like I, you know, as a writer, you're always maybe looking for your beat

00:07:53.720 or your niche or your, the thing that you have an expertise in. And I'd spent so much time researching

00:07:58.880 this, immersing myself in the community, talking to people that at that point, I was just pretty

00:08:03.620 fascinated with it. I thought maybe I'd write a book, a book about maybe the man who started the

00:08:07.720 whole thing, who is the kind of tragic hero of the industry, Mr. Mouse. And then it kind of broadened

00:08:13.340 from there. And I, I thought it was a, you know, obviously it's a very visual medium, these,

00:08:18.000 these events. So I thought it'd be fun to tell the story of this subculture in a film form documentary.

00:08:24.480 Yeah. And you did a great job on, I really enjoyed the documentary. What's a, what's been the,

00:08:28.220 is I think it's called Mr. Mouse. I think it's called the, uh, is it the tough guy? I can't

00:08:31.940 remember what you called it. Yeah. Tough. It's called tough guy.

00:08:34.200 So that event looks horrifying to me. I mean, I've, I've done Spartan races. I look at them,

00:08:38.340 I get nervous, I get, get the butterflies, but that event like literally scares me. Tell me,

00:08:42.340 tell me a little bit about maybe the most difficult events you've done and what that actually looks like.

00:08:46.080 The first tough guy was hands down, I'd say the hardest, most challenging,

00:08:51.120 terrifying event I'd, I'd done. I don't, I mean, no one really likes being cold. And the day before,

00:08:57.640 when I got to England, I'm there the day before on course, standing on a pond that I would be

00:09:02.820 dunking my head underwater, dunking my head under several times the following day.

00:09:07.600 The ice was super thick. It rained a lot that night. So it broke up some of the ice, but not all of it.

00:09:13.320 And so that course, you know, it's an eight or nine mile course and you are in and out of water

00:09:17.500 the whole time. And with the winds in England, and this is, this is the end of January, mind you,

00:09:23.080 in the Midlands of England, it's just already cold. And now you've got this water that you have to

00:09:27.040 compete with and air temperature and water temperature are both probably around, you know,

00:09:30.640 37 degrees. So it was, you know, when I crossed the finish line of that event and that also a lot

00:09:36.240 of Tough Mudder's obstacles were modeled after Tough Guy, hence the lawsuit and the scandal that I

00:09:42.540 mentioned before. Um, sure. So, you know, there are large A-frames that you have to cross over.

00:09:47.800 You're walking on a balance beam that's 40 feet above, above the ground with like maybe a cargo

00:09:52.300 net 10 feet below the balance beam. And then you're, you know, you're up in this massive structure and

00:09:56.260 it's windy and cold and you're trying to walk across this thing. It was everything about it was

00:10:00.780 really a big, big mind. I don't know if I can curse here, but it was a big mind fuck. 1.00

00:10:06.560 I know where you're, yeah, I know where you're going with this. All right. 0.99

00:10:08.880 So I, uh, and then, you know, the sewer pipes, their actual cement sewer, sewage pipes, it was

00:10:14.480 really uncomfortable. Everything about the event was uncomfortable. And then by the time I got to

00:10:18.280 the finish line, my core body temperature chipped away so much that I, you know, there wasn't that

00:10:23.500 sense of achievement and triumph that you have when you cross a Tough Mudder or Spartan Race finish line.

00:10:27.960 It was a real sense of panic. Like, do I need to go to the ER? Like, this doesn't feel right. I feel

00:10:34.680 too cold. I can't talk. I'm slurring my words. This seems like unnatural and I need medical attention.

00:10:40.440 So it was a different, an entirely different experience, that event.

00:10:44.640 Did you go to the hospital?

00:10:45.380 No, I didn't.

00:10:46.300 You stuck it out, huh?

00:10:47.400 Yeah. My wife got me back to our hotel and I sat in a hot bathtub, still shaking like an hour later,

00:10:54.400 unable to, I don't know. I'm really wondering when this is going to end. Yeah.

00:10:59.900 How far, how long did that last?

00:11:01.440 I think it was about 90 minutes after the race where I finally felt like I was okay.

00:11:06.380 Starting to recover a little bit.

00:11:08.120 Oh my goodness. Yeah. I think you actually have that part in the video, in the documentary as well.

00:11:11.920 Yep. I do.

00:11:12.860 So I want to ask, and I know this is on a lot of people's mind, especially those who've never done

00:11:16.100 any type of obstacle course racing. And my father-in-law says it all the time when I go do a race,

00:11:19.960 he's like, you're going to pay money to do that? Which is one of the core questions that you ask in the

00:11:23.260 documentary. Tell me a little bit about why, like maybe even the culture, the type of people that

00:11:28.200 would do this. I have my own reasons, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

00:11:31.580 I think in general, I feel like most of the people who do this are just normal people with

00:11:36.940 desk jobs. And they don't, you know, there's all sorts of, there are lots of athletes and

00:11:42.920 extreme athletes. And that's a much smaller percentage of the people who actually participate

00:11:47.580 in these things. So I think the vast majority of them are desk jockeys and pencil pushers and don't

00:11:52.820 have these types of experiences in their life. And so they're, they're really stepping outside

00:11:57.640 their comfort zone. They're really gaining something at that finish line because they've

00:12:01.400 gone through something that's so different from what's in their normal HR existence. So, you know,

00:12:06.300 it really appeals to corporate America and people with, I guess, normal jobs and enough disposable

00:12:11.600 income to pay to crawl through mud.

00:12:14.980 And, you know, I don't know if you are familiar with the quote, I quote this all the time,

00:12:18.640 John Eldridge, he says, deep in his heart, every man has a battle to fight and adventure

00:12:21.840 to live in a beauty to rescue. And I think this is what we want. Like I spent time in

00:12:26.840 the military and a lot of people asked me about what my service was like in Iraq and

00:12:30.800 as difficult and as challenging as it was, it was probably the time that I felt one of

00:12:34.160 the, one of the most alive points of my life, if you will. And I think we can get a glimpse

00:12:39.320 of a small experience of that when we start to participate in these obstacle course races.

00:12:43.020 Yeah. And Nicholas Carr touches upon it in the film and also in a lot of extra footage

00:12:46.940 that I have that I'd like to figure out a way to repurpose. He's a tech writer. He's

00:12:50.880 a Pulitzer Prize finalist. And he just talks about how like essentially our lives, the goal

00:12:55.100 has been to remove all the obstacles. You know, Silicon Valley wants us to have a frictionless

00:12:59.200 existence. And we think we want that. But, you know, the bottom line is that humans were

00:13:03.940 designed to face challenges. There are reward mechanisms for overcoming challenges. And we

00:13:09.060 feel most alive when we are actually engaged in difficult challenges. And I think that's the

00:13:13.940 thing that we, that we lose when we, in these digital modern lives that we live, this convenience

00:13:18.940 of culture where you can just get anything on demand anytime. You don't have to leave your

00:13:23.600 house. You know, everything is just so easy for us. And I think ultimately that leaves all

00:13:27.960 of us feeling very unfulfilled.

00:13:29.780 Is this the most effective way to get some of that fulfillment and that challenge? Or are

00:13:34.640 there other things that people are doing that maybe rival obstacle course racing? Or what's

00:13:39.420 your experience with that?

00:13:40.020 Well, I think this is one, I think, symptom of a society at a step. I think you have,

00:13:44.740 I mean, you look at the maker movement. Those people are also, I think, finding, you know,

00:13:49.880 happiness and a feeling of competence through learning how to make things, whether it's artisanal

00:13:54.280 mustard or you're creating some sort of battle bot robot thing.

00:13:57.740 Sure, sure.

00:13:58.500 But, you know, the people who are not just buying things off the shelf and are engaged in

00:14:04.180 creation, I think that's another outlet for this. Very much so.

00:14:07.720 So, where do you suggest that somebody start? I mean, I know there's going to be a lot of

00:14:12.020 guys. Everybody's listened to me. They know my experience. I'm a proponent of obstacle

00:14:15.900 course racing. I like to get abused and beat up a little bit. I find it exciting and fascinating

00:14:21.040 and it makes me feel alive. So, everybody knows that who listens to this podcast. But where would

00:14:25.140 somebody get started if they're looking at doing something like this?

00:14:27.700 It depends on, you know, the fitness level. If you want to just dip your toes in,

00:14:31.580 the Warrior Dash provides a really great experience for people. It's a 3K, no, it's a 5K. So,

00:14:37.680 a little over three miles, sometimes even shorter, maybe has, I'm not sure how many obstacles,

00:14:41.600 but not too many and they seem fun. And I've personally never done a Warrior Dash. It's kind

00:14:46.140 of like the gateway drug into obstacle racing, so to speak. Kind of just went straight for it with

00:14:50.580 Tough Mudder. Spartan races, you know, appeal to a different type of person. These are much more

00:14:56.400 like physically challenging. It's almost like, you know, they feel like CrossFit-based obstacles.

00:15:02.220 They're about grip strength and, you know, strength and endurance. And then, you know,

00:15:07.120 Tough Mudder has gimmicky, very fun obstacles. And they're of a longer length. Spartan has three

00:15:14.000 different race lengths. So, there's something there for everyone. But, you know, if you fail an

00:15:18.260 obstacle, you have to do 30 burpees. Which is brutal.

00:15:21.000 Which is brutal. I mean, right.

00:15:22.640 It doesn't sound horrible, except for when you realize that you just ran 6 or 9 or 12 miles,

00:15:29.000 and then that destroys you literally for the rest of the race.

00:15:31.360 Yep. It's a, yeah, I quit a three-mile Spartan race, as you had seen in the movie.

00:15:36.600 Right.

00:15:36.880 Literally, my spirit was broken, too many burpees, and I just felt like my body was going into shock.

00:15:43.020 Which obstacles did you miss, if you don't mind me asking?

00:15:45.360 Spear. Pretty much always, I miss the spear.

00:15:47.440 The spear is brutal. I mean, it's not a hard thing, you know, physically demanding,

00:15:52.320 but it is difficult to stick that spear.

00:15:54.100 It's difficult under pressure for me, which is really annoying, because I built a spear

00:15:58.300 target at my house.

00:15:59.800 Oh, you did? Yeah.

00:16:00.660 And at home, I can nail it 85% of the time. You put me in a race, and I'm at like 5%.

00:16:05.760 Of course.

00:16:06.500 But this is the last time I missed it. I went, I did my burpees, and then I tried it four more times,

00:16:11.340 and of course, now there's nothing on the line. I hit it four times in a row at the last race.

00:16:14.840 Yeah, of course.

00:16:15.560 So, spear, I think the zip wall with the grips, I slipped off that.

00:16:21.020 Was that the Z wall, right? 0.97

00:16:22.520 Yeah, at the time, it was just a traverse wall.

00:16:24.440 Okay.

00:16:24.840 And, oh, the rope climb, I failed that in spectacular fashion.

00:16:29.660 Was it water at the bottom?

00:16:31.180 It was water at the bottom, and I was at the very, very top, and I couldn't pull myself up even.

00:16:36.320 You know, I was at the top knot, and I couldn't even get myself up.

00:16:39.580 And, you know, there's a large crowd of people at this point, because I declared to the world I was making this movie,

00:16:45.340 and so a lot of people had recognized me on the course.

00:16:48.040 And so they're cheering me on, and I'm the only one on the ropes, and I couldn't do it, and I knew I couldn't do it.

00:16:52.120 I made this fake attempt to ring the bell, but I knew I wasn't going to hit it.

00:16:55.460 And then I went kerplunk, splashing from the top.

00:16:57.840 So I could hear the voices like, like, yeah, you got this to, oh.

00:17:02.600 Yep, yep.

00:17:03.500 And I just wanted to stay underwater as long as possible.

00:17:06.320 Like a sinkhole could have opened up right then and there, and I would have been psyched.

00:17:09.800 And they put those rope climbs right by the, where all the spectators are, of course, right?

00:17:15.000 Yes, of course, right there.

00:17:15.820 Yeah.

00:17:17.320 All right, guys, let me take a quick break to tell you again about our elite mastermind, The Iron Council.

00:17:21.700 I've received a lot of questions and interest over the past several weeks, and if you're sitting on the fence about joining,

00:17:26.300 I'm here to tell you nothing is going to change in your life until you do.

00:17:30.700 So with that said, I want you to sign up for The Iron Council.

00:17:33.400 I want you to join us and the rest of the men who want to do more than they talk.

00:17:38.060 The ones who commit to a plan of action.

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00:17:43.680 I, along with the rest of the members, are here to help you build a deeper relationship with your wife and your kids.

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00:17:59.740 Make sure you join us. 0.88

00:18:00.840 You can do that at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:18:03.360 Now let's get back to my interview with Scott.

00:18:06.480 I want to jump back to the tough guy race because it is really fascinating.

00:18:10.340 I mean, I've seen the video.

00:18:11.260 I know a little bit about Mr. Mouse and his personality, which seems interesting to put it mildly.

00:18:17.380 Tell me a little bit about why he has basically the founder, you know, the grandfather of creating this movement, but just hasn't hit that mainstream like some of these other events have.

00:18:27.820 He was popular.

00:18:28.720 Tough Guy had always gotten a lot of press internationally because it was so bizarre.

00:18:32.620 We're talking, you know, MTV came out.

00:18:34.580 ESPN came out.

00:18:35.440 They did a short film and a story.

00:18:37.460 So it had traction with media pre-Facebook.

00:18:41.140 But once Tough Mudder came along and, you know, commercialized the Tough Guy model, you never really heard about Tough Guy again because, you know, Mr. Mouse doesn't have the, let's say, commercial awareness that Tough Mudder had or Will Dean or even Joe DeSena.

00:18:55.440 You know, it's not necessarily about that for him, but they found a way to take his idea and really blow it up to the Facebook generation.

00:19:02.200 Yeah, the event, yeah, I think just did not hit mainstream because of just various limitations.

00:19:07.140 It's not, they're not a bunch of MBAs and business people in his office.

00:19:11.320 It's him type, writing everything up by hand and having like a secretary type things up.

00:19:16.740 I mean, it's something out of like the 1500s.

00:19:19.040 Yeah.

00:19:19.440 The operations there.

00:19:20.880 And I think I remember hearing about his, the newsletter with the donkeys or something like that.

00:19:25.520 Yeah, he sends out a quarterly newsletter called the Jelly Leg News, which is obscure to say the least.

00:19:32.480 It's, you know, sometimes it has race information and literally sometimes it has stories about the love of a donkey or, you know, random war heroes that Mr. Mouse likes or various experiences of his.

00:19:44.400 It's, it's charming and expensive.

00:19:47.700 He's, he's still mailing these things out by postage.

00:19:51.420 And he says in the film that he spent $60,000 on postage that year, which is, which is like insane when you think about how far $60,000 would go at that time on Facebook.

00:20:03.520 Yeah, exactly.

00:20:04.340 To get, to promote the event for sure.

00:20:06.700 What's the significance?

00:20:07.540 I wanted to ask you about this, about Jelly Leg.

00:20:09.920 What, what, what is that?

00:20:10.820 What's the significance there?

00:20:11.740 Uh, there's a, there's some hills that you go up and down, up and down, up and down.

00:20:15.440 I mean, I think originally Jelly Leg might have something to do with runners, like your wobbly legs.

00:20:20.100 Sure.

00:20:20.360 Okay.

00:20:20.840 Yeah.

00:20:21.020 In the context I've heard, there's a slalom section where you're, you're going up and down a steep hillside on his property.

00:20:28.580 And at the end of it, you are left with Jelly Legs, which is, which is very true. 0.99

00:20:32.900 Yeah, I bet.

00:20:33.560 I bet it is.

00:20:34.400 What, so how does, how do the other guys, I mean, you talk about, is it Will, is he the, is he the, uh, the founder of, of Tough Guy?

00:20:39.840 I mean, excuse me, Tough Mudder?

00:20:41.080 He is, yeah.

00:20:41.240 Okay, so what, what is the, obviously, I'm sure there's some bad blood there, but the, the thought behind Will and Joe, what they think about Mr. Mouse and his, his, his, basically his movement and what he started?

00:20:52.640 I think they both have respect for it.

00:20:54.660 Obviously, there is some bad blood between Will and Mr. Mouse.

00:20:56.620 They had a very bitter legal battle, um, which you could read about if, uh, I guess maybe in the show notes, my cover story for Outside.

00:21:03.500 Yeah, we'll link it up.

00:21:04.600 So, you know, Will and Joe, or Will and Mr. Mouse have a, they're not close or anything by any stretch.

00:21:09.360 Joe and Mr. Mouse, they both have a mutual respect for one another.

00:21:14.380 And I think, you know, they, they both appreciate what Mr. Mouse did.

00:21:17.660 He was the first, the first along to, to, to do this, to build an obstacle course and a permanent course or a course on your farm.

00:21:24.220 And they just, uh, made their own version of it.

00:21:27.220 Um, and this has certainly left Mr. Mouse feeling, you know, he feels left behind and, you know, in a way, rightfully so.

00:21:32.620 So it's a bit of a tragic story, which I, I definitely tried to get across in the film.

00:21:37.440 Part of what I really appreciated about Mr. Mouse was just his, he just is so far out of the box.

00:21:42.000 And, and just, he's like, he is from another era with another set of values.

00:21:45.440 And, you know, he's not as commercially minded or driven.

00:21:48.880 Tough guy to him is more of a, it's a way to teach these kinds of experiences to people to, you know, it's, it's more of a lesson.

00:21:54.940 And I think some people might argue that Tough Mudder and Tough and Spartan Race are more of a commercial enterprise, which no knock against it.

00:22:01.860 You got to, these are expensive races to put on, but I think Mr. Mouse's spirit is in a different place and that he does this for a different reason.

00:22:09.640 I definitely think there's an opportunity for both.

00:22:11.460 I mean, I'm a firm believer, obviously, of capitalism and the ability to, to capitalize and monetize something that you've created and something that will help other people.

00:22:18.520 So there's, there's definitely a line that I think can be straddled, if you will.

00:22:22.700 Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:23.760 I have no.

00:22:24.000 What?

00:22:24.320 Yeah, I have no problem with the commercialization and sponsorships and everything at Tough Mudders and Spartan Races.

00:22:30.100 I think, you know, I want them to succeed and that's a big part of the equation for them.

00:22:35.380 What do you see as the, as the direction for obstacle course racing?

00:22:38.700 First of all, I guess, is it, does Mr. Mouse have any desire to adapt or, or, or move forward into this newer way of doing things?

00:22:46.200 Or do you feel like it'll always be the way it currently is?

00:22:48.800 Well, he has said that this year, the 30th anniversary of Tough Guy, it will be the last Tough Guy.

00:22:53.300 Hmm.

00:22:54.300 So I don't know what his plans are afterwards.

00:22:56.680 It's, you know, it's hard.

00:22:58.080 His plans change.

00:22:59.960 Sure.

00:23:00.280 Maybe it's a marketing ploy to sell out this year.

00:23:02.620 And if it is good on him, I'm sure no one who, who does it because they think it's the last is going to be upset that it is the last.

00:23:09.680 But, right.

00:23:10.180 So I, you know, I know he, Mr. Mouse would like to see this in the Olympics as Joe would, but I don't, you know, I don't really know what he's going to do after this January.

00:23:17.940 And I think that probably is the, the direction.

00:23:20.980 And it sounds like I've had a conversation, a couple of conversations with Joe about him wanting to get this in the Olympics.

00:23:25.500 Is that the future of obstacle course racing?

00:23:27.320 I think it's a, it's a very real possibility that not anytime in the next 10 years, but, you know, sometime within my lifetime, this will be an Olympic sport.

00:23:34.840 And, you know, it'd have to change in a lot of different ways from what it is right now.

00:23:38.560 And, you know, from what it is that I love about it, but still there could be a fun version that's, that's just shorter spectator friendly.

00:23:45.160 And I still think, you know, we'll still have these trail runs through woods and whatnot, but, you know, there are some ways to do it, but obviously has to be TV friendly and has to be spectator friendly.

00:23:53.820 And at the moment, it's not super set up that way.

00:23:57.920 How do you feel like it, it would need to change?

00:24:00.040 I mean, specifically what, obviously there are standardized type things that we would need to incorporate.

00:24:04.640 I know that there's, I'm assuming that Spartan race is a little bit closer just because they have national standings and rankings and things like that.

00:24:11.960 But, but how, how would that work if it were to work out in the Olympics?

00:24:15.260 Well, not only that, you'd need standardized courses across the world.

00:24:19.680 So it'd have to be in, I think maybe 47 or 50 countries and you'd have to have the same, you know, you can't have sandbags.

00:24:26.060 You can't have the spears the way they have them where, because each hay bale you're throwing it into would have to be identical.

00:24:32.340 The obstacles themselves would have to be very, very standardized.

00:24:35.640 There wouldn't be different weighted sacks or different size logs.

00:24:38.940 You know, I think there are two ways from what I understand.

00:24:41.200 One would be in an arena.

00:24:42.940 So in a stadium, you have a course that people can qualify across the world at the same, you know, everything is the same.

00:24:48.680 And that would also be TV friendly.

00:24:50.060 But mountain biking courses would be another, another like possibility for how these races could be outside of an arena.

00:24:55.880 Because they are TV friendly and you could have a, I mean, obviously you can't have the same mountain bike course across the world.

00:25:02.140 But as far as Olympics, an Olympic competition, you could do it on a mountain bike course because it's already set up for TV.

00:25:08.660 Yeah, no, that makes sense.

00:25:09.620 So what do you, I mean, just to come back to some of the reasons why and what people are finding out about themselves.

00:25:14.180 I mean, are you learning new things about yourself as you are participating in these races?

00:25:17.860 How have you developed as a person through doing this?

00:25:20.180 Put it this way, like there's a point in the movie and in my experience with this where I quit a three-mile Spartan race in shame that I just didn't have it in me.

00:25:29.960 And I felt pretty gutless and I felt really low.

00:25:33.220 So even that experience, I learned that I'm not the man that I want to be or anywhere near it.

00:25:38.760 I walked off a three-mile course in shame and humiliation.

00:25:43.540 And so that's instructive and it led me to want to take my life more seriously.

00:25:49.360 It was embarrassing.

00:25:50.440 I mean, I was frankly embarrassed with myself.

00:25:52.580 So lesson number one.

00:25:54.440 And then, you know, from that I started doing CrossFit.

00:25:57.200 I started training more and running more and taking it more seriously because if it's not fun for me to be out there, you know, I don't want to do it.

00:26:04.460 And then like last fall around this time, I signed up for World's Toughest Mudder, which is a 24-hour race.

00:26:11.080 You do a five-mile course as many times as you can in 24 hours.

00:26:14.320 And over the course of that, whatever it is, a year and a half or almost two years, I went from a guy who couldn't finish a three-mile race to a guy who was standing after 50 miles and 24 hours.

00:26:25.740 And that was like seriously one of the more profound moments of my life.

00:26:29.260 And I count that 50 miles as, you know, next to my marriage and fatherhood and this movie as maybe the four things I'm most proud of.

00:26:38.020 I feel like I have a resiliency that I didn't know that I had within me.

00:26:41.860 I can apply that to my life.

00:26:43.700 And in a lot of ways, I've learned that I'm more than, you know, that maybe it's like the, just the mental barriers that stop you.

00:26:51.400 Like your body, my mind would generally quit far, long before my body will.

00:26:55.660 And I think World's Toughest Mudder proved that, that, you know, whenever my mind wanted to quit, my body could still keep going.

00:27:01.640 But you just have to kind of control your mind a bit.

00:27:04.460 And how did you do that for yourself?

00:27:05.800 I think it was just sheer will and desire.

00:27:08.460 Like I knew it would mean a lot to me.

00:27:11.000 I wasn't really thinking about the movie.

00:27:12.440 We had to kind of finish the movie and that only was included as an epilogue because I did hit the 50 miles and that seemed important.

00:27:18.920 But I just had this thing in my head and I had a son and I wanted, you know, maybe do it for him.

00:27:24.460 Have this thing that I look back on and that by all objective measures is a pretty badass thing to be able to pull off.

00:27:30.100 For sure.

00:27:30.460 And so I feel like I wanted to redeem myself in a way that, you know, sure, you know, I could say I did the Spartan World Championship 16 mile beast.

00:27:38.600 And, you know, that sounds, I know that, I mean, that's a brutal race. 1.00

00:27:41.840 This is about a month before World's Toughest Mudder.

00:27:44.220 And I knew that was an achievement to finish that.

00:27:46.080 But to the outside observer, that doesn't necessarily mean as much as I did 50 miles.

00:27:51.940 So, yeah, there's something about that benchmark.

00:27:53.600 Yeah, I think I'm like good at the really big things like, you know, better at those because they're so extreme.

00:27:58.800 And I think I tend towards those things.

00:28:01.760 Well, I can definitely relate for, you know, doing it with your son.

00:28:04.080 When I did that 60-hour Spartan, the Agogi, the endurance event, that was what kept me going is there was a couple of times where literally, I mean, it's scary to look back now how close I was to actually ringing that bell and quitting.

00:28:15.300 But at that point, the only thing that kept me going was my wife and my kids.

00:28:19.260 They took a picture and they sent it to me before and they said, hey, we know you can do it.

00:28:22.140 And they had a big poster with, you know, go dad, 60 hours.

00:28:25.100 It was pretty cool.

00:28:26.560 And those moments is what kept me driving, what kept me pushing, even though I did want to quit and give up.

00:28:31.040 Yeah, that's a crazy race. 0.99

00:28:32.460 And that's like, you know, that's on my bucket list sometime in the near, you know, futures, giving one of those back.

00:28:38.900 I don't, you know, I have to, I think, clear another mental hurdle in my head to be able to take on something like that.

00:28:44.300 But, yeah, good on you, man.

00:28:46.140 Well, you know, and just to maybe give you some insight into that, it really, I mean, you obviously physically you can complete it.

00:28:52.120 It's not as physically demanding as it is mentally demanding.

00:28:54.520 And when you're on sleep deprivation for 60 hours and things like that, and food deprivation, all that kind of stuff, your mind starts to really do some things to you.

00:29:02.120 So it's definitely a different type of challenge.

00:29:04.580 It's not like a traditional Spartan race for sure.

00:29:06.400 Got it.

00:29:06.940 So what's the difference?

00:29:07.720 You talk about redeeming yourself from the three-mile Spartan that you ran.

00:29:11.220 What's the difference between you, somebody who says, I want to redeem myself and learn from that experience and get better and use that as fuel and motivation,

00:29:19.500 and then somebody who maybe just throws in the towel and says, this is not for me.

00:29:22.480 I'm going to quit.

00:29:23.120 I don't want to do this anymore.

00:29:23.840 What would you say the difference is?

00:29:25.320 Yeah, I mean, it's just a different type of people.

00:29:27.020 I think a lot of people are quitters, and I think there are people who maybe I just demand a lot from myself.

00:29:33.820 I have a family.

00:29:34.780 I've always had big outsized dreams for my life.

00:29:37.920 And to me, quitting, I mean, it was hard to make this movie.

00:29:41.220 I mean, after, you know, I tried kickstarting this thing, and that was a big failure.

00:29:45.600 I fell a quarter million dollars shy of my Kickstarter goal.

00:29:49.840 So, and I, you know, it's a very public thing.

00:29:51.740 I'm asking all my friends and Spartan Race is posting it out to, like, you know, their people.

00:29:56.120 And I tried to let the whole world know that I was doing this thing.

00:29:59.280 And usually at that point, if you fail, I don't think very many movies that fail so spectacularly ever see the light of day on a Kickstarter.

00:30:08.160 So, for me, like, I guess there's something inside I believe that I have.

00:30:12.860 It seems cheesy, like these, like, you know, everyone has greatness inside or whatnot.

00:30:16.660 Like, it seems cliche, and it also seems like a marketing ploy for some podcasters.

00:30:21.780 We don't use that, by the way.

00:30:24.180 But I, you know, I just always have felt that way.

00:30:27.240 I always wanted to do something great in this world.

00:30:29.220 And I always, you know, maybe my mom made me feel special.

00:30:32.080 Maybe whatever it is, I just, I can't put myself out there so publicly and then just hide in the corner and not own up to it.

00:30:41.620 Like, you know, one way for me to address that failure at the DNF at the Spartan Race was as I finally, by the time I got to the car, the embarrassment and humiliation faded a little bit, and I started laughing.

00:30:53.580 And I realized I could write an essay for Outside Magazine about it, and I did.

00:30:58.340 And it was shared, like, 23,000 times on social media.

00:31:01.920 So, I ended up getting that, like, you know, it was a humor essay about, like, being a just enougher and how I need to demand more for myself.

00:31:07.820 And I guess using comedy to process my failures has always been a, you know, a powerful tool for me to get back on the horse.

00:31:17.000 As if life is a chronic bedwetter, that was always a, something I was so embarrassed about.

00:31:21.620 I was wetting my bed into college.

00:31:24.040 I think I remember you saying that.

00:31:25.160 And did you talk about that in the video?

00:31:26.540 I can't remember.

00:31:27.100 Yeah, I did.

00:31:27.640 Okay, yeah.

00:31:28.200 Yeah, that's right.

00:31:28.600 So, that for me was, obviously, I mean, I'm a college bedwetter.

00:31:32.080 What could be worse?

00:31:33.200 You know, like, laying there, hoping your roommate wakes up and goes to class so you can, like, flip the mattress and pour Clorox on it.

00:31:38.880 And, like, it was just a nightmare.

00:31:41.220 But years later, like, I just started writing about it.

00:31:43.740 And I started laughing as I was writing about it.

00:31:45.680 And I realized, like, oh, like, this is good.

00:31:48.360 Let me use this, this, like, dark night of the soul for comedy.

00:31:52.340 And I published, this is the first magazine story I published nationally.

00:31:56.180 And, you know, it was so cathartic to me that I think that's just the answer.

00:32:00.280 It's like being able to see the upside of failure and using it as an opportunity as opposed to the thing that makes you just stop in your tracks.

00:32:08.540 Yeah, definitely.

00:32:09.260 Well, I know when we talk about this a lot, there's power in just being vulnerable and just owning every aspect and element of your life.

00:32:14.460 And when you can do that and drop the ego, push that aside and just say, here's me and here's what I failed at, here's what I'm good at.

00:32:20.340 I think a lot of people understand that.

00:32:21.880 And it gives them permission to do the same because all of us have failed.

00:32:24.140 All of us have come up short.

00:32:25.500 And I think that vulnerability is powerful for other people.

00:32:28.640 It definitely shows in your documentary and the conversation that we're having today.

00:32:31.800 Thanks.

00:32:32.460 So what's next for you, man?

00:32:33.520 I mean, you've got, this seems to be pretty successful.

00:32:37.180 What's on the doc next for you?

00:32:38.780 I think maybe next I'd like to maybe do a documentary or a docu-series about manning up and learning how to do man stuff before my son, Raleigh, is old enough to realize daddy doesn't know how to do anything.

00:32:49.180 And so in a lot of ways, it could zoom in on the, you know, some of the themes from this film, like the masculinity crisis.

00:32:58.640 You know, most men don't know how to do man things like we, whereas our grandfathers could fix basic electronics in the car and build things.

00:33:06.460 You know, there just really aren't many of my friends who know how to do these things.

00:33:10.540 I think it's important to have those certain basic, you know, survival man skills.

00:33:15.560 And I don't have them.

00:33:16.860 And I think it would be fun to explore that in, you know, a documentary sort of format.

00:33:22.440 Yeah, that'd be cool.

00:33:22.940 Let us know when you get that going because we can definitely promote or help in any way on our end because obviously the conversation of masculinity and those type of things are valuable to the discussion we're having as well.

00:33:31.220 So let us know.

00:33:31.820 Cool.

00:33:32.720 Scott, I appreciate you, man.

00:33:33.640 Obviously, I could talk about this stuff all day.

00:33:35.100 It's important to me.

00:33:35.680 It's an important component of my life that I've only found recently.

00:33:37.820 So I really appreciate you coming on.

00:33:39.200 I've got a couple of questions as we wind down.

00:33:41.240 And the first one is, what does it mean to be a man?

00:33:44.500 Well, if you're Tucker Max, who I interviewed for the film and did not actually use the footage, but I did love his answer to this.

00:33:51.420 There are three F's of manhood.

00:33:53.380 There was food.

00:33:54.640 So obviously gathering food for your family. 1.00

00:33:57.000 Fucking, being able to make a family. 1.00

00:33:59.020 And fighting, being able to defend your family. 0.99

00:34:02.300 So I think basic competence in those arenas are important signifiers of manhood.

00:34:09.280 I don't know if I would have put it like that, but definitely can see that.

00:34:12.640 So very cool.

00:34:13.380 Appreciate that, Scott.

00:34:14.600 Hey, Scott, I just want to let you know, man, I appreciate you.

00:34:16.440 I appreciate your work and what you're doing.

00:34:18.500 It's been a big part of my life.

00:34:20.060 Obviously, we've talked a little bit about that.

00:34:21.620 And I'm anxious to see where you go with this and how we might be able to assist you down the road.

00:34:25.880 I just want to let you know that.

00:34:27.220 And thank you for being on the show.

00:34:28.440 Tell us how we can connect with you and find out more about your work and the things you're doing.

00:34:32.080 I have my own website, scottkeneely.com.

00:34:35.160 And then also, as far as if you guys want to watch the film, go to our website, sufferfests.com.

00:34:40.460 And you could either download directly from us or get it on iTunes, Google, or Amazon.

00:34:44.900 And I hope you do check out the movie.

00:34:46.400 I did pour my heart and soul into making it.

00:34:47.880 And I obviously hope as many people see it as possible.

00:34:50.720 Yeah, right.

00:34:51.240 Well, we can tell that you definitely put your heart and soul into it.

00:34:54.300 And I appreciate you doing that.

00:34:55.500 And then we'll make sure we link up all that in the show notes.

00:34:57.280 Scott, again, I appreciate you being on the show, bro.

00:34:58.760 Thanks so much.

00:34:59.300 Take care.

00:35:00.980 Man, there it is.

00:35:01.800 Mr. Scott Keneally, writer, director of Rise of the Sufferfest.

00:35:05.020 You can get the show notes and resources at orderofman.com slash 087.

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00:35:28.920 Now, the last thing I want to tell you again, check out our mastermind, the Iron Council.

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00:35:54.280 Guys, I look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes.

00:35:56.820 But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.

00:36:00.560 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

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Order of Man - November 15, 2016

087： Rise of the Sufferfests with Scott Keneally

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