Order of Man - December 06, 2016


090： Negotiate Like a Professional ｜ Chris Voss


Episode Stats

Length

44 minutes

Words per Minute

195.82468

Word Count

8,736

Sentence Count

509

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary

Chris Voss, former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI, joins me to talk about the characteristics of a great negotiator, how powerful your words can be, and why you should be going for a no instead of a yes.


Transcript

00:00:00.160 Negotiation is a skill all of us as men can and should improve.
00:00:03.400 So whether you're talking a criminal into releasing hostages like my guest today has done
00:00:06.980 or negotiating a pay raise or promotion, the art and science of negotiating is going to serve you well.
00:00:12.600 Today, my guest, former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI, Chris Voss,
00:00:17.520 joins me to talk about the characteristics of a great negotiator,
00:00:20.560 how powerful your words can actually be,
00:00:23.080 why you should be going for a no as opposed to a yes,
00:00:25.760 and how to use what he calls tactical empathy to your benefit.
00:00:29.020 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
00:00:32.140 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:35.060 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:00:39.540 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong.
00:00:44.580 This is your life. This is who you are.
00:00:47.120 This is who you will become at the end of the day.
00:00:50.020 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:54.400 Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,
00:00:56.420 and I am the host and the founder of Order of Man.
00:00:58.320 And as always, I want to welcome you to the manliest podcast available.
00:01:01.700 If you're new to the show, again, I want to welcome you.
00:01:04.160 Each week, we interview the world's most successful men,
00:01:06.960 men who are going to help you take your life to the next level
00:01:09.800 when it comes to your relationships, your money, and your business,
00:01:14.080 your fitness, your nutrition, and every single aspect of your life.
00:01:17.880 This is our interview show, but we also, guys, have a Friday show
00:01:21.040 that we release each week, which is a recap of some of my thoughts
00:01:24.080 and ramblings throughout the week.
00:01:25.360 So just subscribe to the Order of Man podcast.
00:01:28.140 Subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode.
00:01:31.280 Now, for those of you who are looking for some additional resources,
00:01:34.140 and I know there's a lot of you out there,
00:01:35.900 I want to give you three resources that you can get more into this conversation
00:01:39.300 that we're going to be having today
00:01:40.260 and every other conversation that we are having within the Order of Man.
00:01:43.860 First, you can get the show notes, as always,
00:01:46.780 for this show at orderofmen.com slash 090.
00:01:50.460 And second, make sure that you join our closed men's Facebook group.
00:01:54.680 We are just shy now of 12,000 men,
00:01:57.420 and we are having some real and serious conversations
00:02:00.080 about what it means to be a man and how you can be a better one,
00:02:03.220 which is why you're probably listening to this podcast.
00:02:05.660 So you can check that out at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofmen.
00:02:09.580 And third, make sure you check out our elite mastermind, The Iron Council.
00:02:12.480 This is a group of men working each and every day to becoming a better man.
00:02:16.480 I'm going to give you some more details during the break,
00:02:18.120 but until then, understand that The Iron Council
00:02:19.760 is all about giving you the guidance, the tools, the direction,
00:02:23.140 everything that you need to achieve at high levels.
00:02:25.440 And you can learn more about that at orderofmen.com slash ironcouncil.
00:02:28.580 Now, with all that said and done and out of the way,
00:02:30.480 let me introduce you to our guest today, Chris Voss.
00:02:32.920 He is the founder and CEO of the Black Swan Group Limited
00:02:35.240 and author of Never Split the Difference,
00:02:37.340 Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It.
00:02:39.920 He used his years and experience in the international crisis
00:02:42.020 and high-stakes negotiations to develop a unique program
00:02:45.120 and team that applies these globally proven techniques
00:02:48.300 to the business world.
00:02:49.820 Prior to 2008, Chris was the lead international kidnapping negotiator
00:02:53.080 for the FBI, as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative
00:02:57.040 for the National Security Council's hostage working group.
00:03:00.020 During his government career,
00:03:01.020 he also represented the U.S. government
00:03:02.600 at two international conferences sponsored by the G8
00:03:05.380 as an expert in kidnapping.
00:03:07.200 Chris also served as the lead crisis negotiator
00:03:09.400 for the New York City Division of the FBI.
00:03:11.020 He was a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist Task Force
00:03:13.860 for 14 years.
00:03:15.120 He was trained in the art of negotiation
00:03:16.620 by not only the FBI, but Scotland Yard
00:03:18.820 and Harvard Law School.
00:03:20.340 He's also a recipient of the Attorney General's Award
00:03:22.580 for Excellence in Law Enforcement
00:03:24.280 and the FBI's Agent Association Award
00:03:26.340 for Distinguished and Exemplary Service.
00:03:28.900 Chris currently teaches business negotiation
00:03:30.440 in the MBA program as an adjunct professor
00:03:32.660 at the University of Southern California's
00:03:34.340 Marshall School of Business
00:03:35.300 and Georgetown University's
00:03:36.860 McDonough School of Business.
00:03:38.180 Chris, how are you doing today?
00:03:40.320 Thanks for joining us on the show.
00:03:42.040 I'm doing great, Ryan.
00:03:43.080 Thanks for having me on.
00:03:44.160 You bet, you bet.
00:03:44.840 I've been following your work and what you do
00:03:46.300 and I've heard you on some other podcasts,
00:03:47.900 so I'm looking forward to having the conversation here.
00:03:49.940 My first question for you is,
00:03:51.540 how does one even become a professional negotiator?
00:03:55.100 Well, you know, what was that Rocky Balboa line?
00:03:58.560 I can't sing or dance, right?
00:04:00.820 That's what it is, huh?
00:04:01.720 Yeah, well, you get into your organization,
00:04:04.660 like in law enforcement,
00:04:06.380 you become a hostage negotiator,
00:04:08.140 but being, you know,
00:04:09.380 becoming a part of the organization,
00:04:11.440 that agency,
00:04:12.380 and a hostage negotiator
00:04:13.600 is always an additional duty.
00:04:15.520 And I think probably that in any organization,
00:04:19.480 you become a negotiator as an additional duty.
00:04:23.180 I was an FBI agent
00:04:24.720 and I had been a member of the SWAT team
00:04:26.940 and that was an additional duty.
00:04:28.940 I'd always been interested in it.
00:04:30.400 But I had a problem with my knee
00:04:32.460 and so then before I completely blew my knee out entirely,
00:04:36.700 I decided to look at something else
00:04:38.020 and I love crisis response.
00:04:39.840 You know, I didn't want to sit back
00:04:41.720 while other stuff did,
00:04:43.480 other people did stuff.
00:04:44.760 I wanted to get in the game
00:04:46.000 when decisions needed to be made.
00:04:48.900 Sure.
00:04:49.300 Are there other elements of crisis response
00:04:51.480 and is this something that maybe
00:04:52.700 you've always been drawn to?
00:04:54.560 I don't know if this is an ability
00:04:56.540 to communicate and have the gift of gab
00:04:59.540 or this is the ability
00:05:00.600 to want to debate with others?
00:05:03.860 Like, where does this talent come from
00:05:05.280 or is it a skill that's purely developed?
00:05:07.520 No, exactly.
00:05:08.200 You know, that's a great distinction.
00:05:09.480 It's not wanting to debate with others.
00:05:11.620 It is the ability to communicate
00:05:13.420 or it is the ability to want to accomplish things.
00:05:16.440 I mean, when I was a uniformed police officer
00:05:19.460 in Kansas City, Missouri,
00:05:20.680 before I was an agent
00:05:22.420 and, you know, uniformed cops respond
00:05:25.440 to the front lines.
00:05:27.340 You know, when everybody's running away
00:05:29.180 from a crisis,
00:05:30.120 the uniformed cops are running towards it.
00:05:32.240 And, you know, I enjoyed responding
00:05:34.440 when things needed to get done now,
00:05:37.900 when decisions needed to be made,
00:05:39.920 when if decisions weren't made,
00:05:42.440 then bad things were going to happen.
00:05:43.860 If somebody didn't intervene,
00:05:45.260 something bad was going to happen.
00:05:47.480 And as an FBI agent,
00:05:49.340 it's a little more measured approach.
00:05:51.720 FBI agents are investigators.
00:05:53.700 They tend to respond after things have happened
00:05:56.560 to try to figure out, you know,
00:05:58.400 who committed the crime
00:05:59.460 or what crime is getting ready to be committed
00:06:01.560 and stop that crime before it happens.
00:06:03.880 But it's either before or after.
00:06:06.280 It's not in the middle of.
00:06:08.240 And as a member of the SWAT team,
00:06:10.100 I enjoyed responding in the middle of
00:06:12.380 when things are happening now,
00:06:13.400 when decisions had to be made.
00:06:15.300 And so then, you know, I had no idea.
00:06:18.980 I wasn't initially attracted to negotiations.
00:06:21.100 I had no idea how great it was going to be,
00:06:23.220 how much I was going to love it,
00:06:24.200 how much I was more built for negotiations.
00:06:27.100 So I was very happy, actually,
00:06:28.760 that I had one of the best things
00:06:30.080 that ever happened to me
00:06:30.800 was having knee problems
00:06:31.800 because negotiation is far more influential
00:06:37.160 and it's far more subtle.
00:06:38.900 And in reality, you know,
00:06:40.820 when there's a crisis in law enforcement,
00:06:42.480 typically the SWAT guys and the negotiators show up
00:06:46.080 and then the SWAT guys sit back
00:06:47.900 while the negotiators talk the bad guy out.
00:06:50.640 So as a hostage negotiator,
00:06:52.360 I did way more work
00:06:53.380 than I ever would have done as a SWAT guy.
00:06:55.240 Sure. Yeah.
00:06:55.600 Because you were involved in every incident
00:06:57.480 as opposed to having to wait for somebody else
00:06:59.760 to solve the problem or not
00:07:01.160 and then be involved, right?
00:07:02.500 Right. Exactly. Yeah.
00:07:03.800 What makes you built for it?
00:07:05.060 You talk about being built for this
00:07:06.420 and this knee problem was a blessing in disguise,
00:07:09.260 it sounds like.
00:07:09.800 Like, why are you built for this
00:07:11.120 as opposed to maybe somebody else?
00:07:12.960 Well, you know, I think it was more...
00:07:15.400 SWAT is like all teamwork
00:07:17.620 and to be a great negotiator,
00:07:19.800 you have to be both good on a team
00:07:21.640 and good as an individual.
00:07:23.480 And you need a lot of initiative.
00:07:25.540 Like with SWAT,
00:07:27.160 the only guy who has initiative
00:07:28.360 is a SWAT commander.
00:07:30.580 You know, the team has to function as a unit
00:07:32.500 and move as a unit.
00:07:33.440 And there isn't a tremendous amount of room
00:07:35.160 for initiative
00:07:35.960 when you're functioning as a SWAT guy
00:07:38.120 because the other people on the team
00:07:41.480 aren't going to know what the hell you're doing
00:07:42.660 if you're displaying initiative.
00:07:44.120 Right. Basically, you're following orders
00:07:45.500 and the plan that maybe you've already laid out
00:07:47.160 and the roadmap that you've already identified.
00:07:49.580 Right. Right. Yeah.
00:07:50.560 It's a very tight team.
00:07:53.360 A negotiator requires a lot more initiative
00:07:56.160 and autonomy.
00:07:57.940 And the switch might be flipped
00:07:59.740 and you may need to be required
00:08:01.000 to be part of a team
00:08:02.320 at the next moment.
00:08:04.440 So, you know, I found I like both.
00:08:07.100 It's very much like being
00:08:08.260 somebody wants to ask me,
00:08:10.420 describe to me what a great consultant was.
00:08:13.900 And they said, well, you know,
00:08:15.060 somebody who operates really well alone
00:08:17.060 and somebody who operates really effectively
00:08:18.620 in a team.
00:08:19.320 And that's what a great negotiator does.
00:08:21.660 A negotiator does both of those things.
00:08:24.100 So, and I like operating.
00:08:25.940 I like being my autonomy.
00:08:27.700 I like my independence.
00:08:29.280 And I like to be able to have initiative
00:08:31.860 and move ahead of everyone else
00:08:33.260 if I have the opportunity to do that.
00:08:35.060 What's the most rewarding experience
00:08:36.820 of a conflict resolution?
00:08:39.200 I mean, obviously,
00:08:39.980 I assume that a successful outcome,
00:08:42.700 but is there more to it
00:08:43.920 than just that that's rewarding for you?
00:08:45.980 Yeah. Well, you talk somebody out
00:08:47.780 using just the power of your words.
00:08:49.880 You get a guy to put down his gun
00:08:51.460 and come out.
00:08:52.580 You know, that's,
00:08:53.500 I gotta tell you,
00:08:54.900 it's intoxicating to be able to be
00:08:58.420 in the middle of a situation
00:08:59.920 where people could get shot,
00:09:01.960 people could die.
00:09:03.080 And just the power of your voice
00:09:05.080 turned the entire situation
00:09:06.900 and changed everything.
00:09:08.380 So there was a,
00:09:10.060 there's never been a single negotiator
00:09:11.520 that I, that I taught
00:09:12.740 when I took them through training
00:09:14.700 that I didn't know
00:09:15.480 that if that moment came
00:09:16.520 when they talk somebody out,
00:09:17.940 when guns were pointed at all directions
00:09:20.520 and not a shot is fired
00:09:22.200 because of the sound of your voice.
00:09:23.560 I mean, that's, it's gratifying
00:09:25.860 and it's intoxicating.
00:09:27.160 Yeah, I can see how that would be
00:09:28.160 a pretty exciting,
00:09:29.860 pretty thrilling adventure,
00:09:31.180 I guess you could say.
00:09:32.380 When you're training these guys,
00:09:34.320 is there things that you notice
00:09:35.720 that will identify
00:09:37.180 whether or not they are going to succeed
00:09:39.040 or maybe they're not the best
00:09:41.100 for this position they're training for?
00:09:43.560 Well, the biggest thing is openness.
00:09:45.300 And interestingly enough,
00:09:46.300 you know, it's a characteristic.
00:09:47.480 It's also referred to as coachability,
00:09:49.180 but it is in fact
00:09:50.940 a psychological characteristic.
00:09:52.460 Adam Grant talks about it
00:09:53.800 in his book Originals.
00:09:55.540 In the very first chapter,
00:09:56.760 he talks about people
00:09:57.680 who possess the characteristic
00:10:00.060 of openness,
00:10:01.060 the ability to be coached,
00:10:02.580 the ability to learn.
00:10:04.040 So Adam Grant talks about it
00:10:05.420 in his book Originals.
00:10:06.520 I looked at for it unconsciously
00:10:08.880 among negotiators.
00:10:11.300 And interestingly enough,
00:10:12.400 I'm sitting on a baseball scout,
00:10:14.040 sitting next to a baseball scout,
00:10:15.860 not on a baseball scout,
00:10:17.080 next to a baseball scout.
00:10:18.320 Sure.
00:10:18.500 On a plane the other day,
00:10:20.320 and he's telling me that
00:10:22.060 the characteristic of openness
00:10:24.400 is more important than talent.
00:10:26.060 I mean, when they're looking
00:10:27.200 for a major league baseball player,
00:10:29.060 of course they're looking for talent,
00:10:30.380 but if the guy's not coachable,
00:10:31.960 it doesn't matter.
00:10:32.960 He's never going to get
00:10:33.940 to the next level.
00:10:35.400 So, you know,
00:10:36.060 they've got to be coachable.
00:10:37.140 And then resilience
00:10:38.780 is the other thing.
00:10:39.820 Every hostage negotiator,
00:10:40.960 if you negotiate enough cases,
00:10:43.340 somebody's going to get killed.
00:10:45.240 It's just,
00:10:46.000 those are just the odds.
00:10:47.480 And, but, you know,
00:10:48.420 it's a small enough percentage
00:10:49.740 of the time
00:10:50.500 that if you've only been
00:10:51.940 in three or four cases
00:10:53.280 in three or four situations,
00:10:55.020 you know,
00:10:55.460 everybody probably came out okay.
00:10:57.260 And, you know,
00:10:58.100 you think that you're
00:10:59.040 God's gift to negotiation
00:11:00.860 because every situation
00:11:01.880 you touch turns
00:11:02.480 comes out fine.
00:11:04.420 And once you start approaching
00:11:05.920 the 10 situation mark,
00:11:07.740 somewhere along those lines,
00:11:09.840 things are going to go sideways.
00:11:12.220 And I always look for the negotiators
00:11:14.180 that could recover from that.
00:11:15.820 You know,
00:11:16.040 if something went bad
00:11:17.580 and the situation turned,
00:11:21.340 you know, fatal,
00:11:24.200 there were one or two reactions
00:11:25.640 from negotiators.
00:11:26.560 Either they're like,
00:11:27.180 you know what?
00:11:27.500 I don't need,
00:11:27.960 I don't need this.
00:11:29.180 I got other things I can do.
00:11:30.840 I just don't need this.
00:11:32.080 That's one reaction.
00:11:33.280 The other,
00:11:33.760 the guys I was looking for
00:11:35.580 are the ones that are like,
00:11:36.720 I'm never going to let
00:11:37.420 this happen again.
00:11:38.820 I'm going to do
00:11:39.700 whatever I have to do.
00:11:40.680 I'm going to learn
00:11:41.140 whatever I have to do,
00:11:42.580 learn,
00:11:43.020 you know,
00:11:44.040 if I somehow
00:11:45.320 I was intimidated by command
00:11:47.000 that I wasn't forceful enough
00:11:48.200 with command last time around,
00:11:49.840 I'm never going to let
00:11:50.920 this happen again.
00:11:52.280 And those are the guys,
00:11:53.280 the ones,
00:11:53.740 guys and gals
00:11:54.580 that were willing
00:11:55.840 to double down
00:11:56.980 and get better
00:11:58.400 as a result of catastrophe.
00:12:00.360 Those,
00:12:00.820 those were the really
00:12:01.900 talented people.
00:12:03.220 How does a person
00:12:03.940 avoid taking this personal
00:12:05.880 or putting all
00:12:07.380 of the responsibility
00:12:08.120 for a negative outcome
00:12:09.320 on their own shoulders?
00:12:10.200 Yeah,
00:12:11.520 you know,
00:12:11.860 I'm not entirely sure.
00:12:13.020 That's a good question.
00:12:14.180 And maybe that's why
00:12:15.220 some people couldn't take it.
00:12:17.040 You know,
00:12:17.220 I think it's the,
00:12:18.120 you know,
00:12:18.520 compartmentalize it
00:12:19.920 in some fashion.
00:12:21.300 People that trust
00:12:22.320 in a process
00:12:23.000 and,
00:12:23.660 you know,
00:12:23.760 step back.
00:12:25.280 You know,
00:12:25.720 I,
00:12:26.020 to some degree,
00:12:26.840 if you're in a situation
00:12:28.320 that's gone bad,
00:12:29.200 you're always going to
00:12:30.120 feel responsible for that.
00:12:31.540 You're always going to
00:12:32.260 feel accountable,
00:12:33.460 especially if you didn't
00:12:34.280 see it coming.
00:12:35.640 Now,
00:12:35.780 and there's situations
00:12:37.640 now I've done this,
00:12:38.720 I did it long enough
00:12:39.460 that they become
00:12:40.760 relatively predictable.
00:12:41.680 Just,
00:12:42.140 you know,
00:12:42.280 just because you know
00:12:43.100 what's going to happen
00:12:43.620 doesn't mean you can
00:12:44.220 change the outcome.
00:12:45.680 And if you see a train wreck
00:12:47.300 coming at you,
00:12:48.880 you know,
00:12:49.580 you can do the best
00:12:50.360 that you could possibly do
00:12:51.380 and there's still
00:12:52.040 a pretty good chance
00:12:52.660 it's going to go bad anyway.
00:12:54.120 Right,
00:12:54.200 because you can't always
00:12:54.960 control that train.
00:12:56.440 Yeah,
00:12:56.660 you can't,
00:12:57.040 exactly.
00:12:57.580 You can't control a train.
00:12:58.460 You can see where
00:12:58.980 the train's going.
00:12:59.700 That doesn't mean
00:13:00.140 you can get it
00:13:00.540 on another track.
00:13:01.580 And that,
00:13:02.380 that,
00:13:02.700 I think that would be,
00:13:03.500 I was,
00:13:03.860 that would be hard
00:13:04.620 and that was what
00:13:05.660 I would teach,
00:13:06.760 you know,
00:13:06.960 baby negotiators
00:13:07.820 if you will start now
00:13:08.880 because I wanted them
00:13:10.380 to know that,
00:13:11.040 you know,
00:13:11.460 it wasn't always
00:13:12.260 saving people's lives.
00:13:13.560 There's going to be a,
00:13:14.940 there's going to be situations
00:13:15.960 you're going to get
00:13:16.520 in the middle of
00:13:17.120 that,
00:13:17.420 that this is going
00:13:18.420 to go bad.
00:13:19.660 You know,
00:13:20.100 we can try and steer
00:13:21.000 it out of the way
00:13:21.540 but you have to accept
00:13:22.560 that this is not
00:13:23.260 all going to be roses.
00:13:24.300 So,
00:13:24.940 you need to get into it
00:13:26.140 with your eyes wide open.
00:13:28.700 So,
00:13:28.820 at that point,
00:13:29.240 I'm imagining
00:13:29.720 when you can recognize
00:13:30.840 this is going to go bad,
00:13:31.700 it's just a point
00:13:32.360 of minimizing
00:13:32.920 the collateral damage?
00:13:34.020 Is that right?
00:13:35.280 Minimizing the collateral damage
00:13:36.660 and then,
00:13:37.340 yeah,
00:13:37.600 and the collateral damage
00:13:38.520 is always the families.
00:13:40.100 You know,
00:13:40.360 they're always families
00:13:41.600 and whether it be
00:13:42.980 a kidnapping
00:13:43.500 or a contained situation
00:13:44.980 and contained
00:13:46.280 is like a bank
00:13:47.060 where you got them surrounded.
00:13:48.040 Okay.
00:13:48.300 there's always the collateral damages
00:13:53.080 on families
00:13:54.600 and kidnappings
00:13:55.520 in particular,
00:13:56.260 international kidnappings,
00:13:57.880 you know,
00:13:58.260 the data shows us
00:13:59.320 that the families
00:14:00.040 suffer post-traumatic stress
00:14:01.940 at the same rate
00:14:02.620 as the victims do.
00:14:04.100 So,
00:14:04.640 there's actually
00:14:05.020 much more collateral damage
00:14:06.740 in a kidnapping
00:14:07.780 because there's one victim,
00:14:10.000 you know,
00:14:10.320 there's anywhere
00:14:10.760 from three to 20 family members
00:14:12.740 that are going to go
00:14:13.360 through PTSD.
00:14:15.260 Yeah,
00:14:15.680 that makes it difficult.
00:14:16.520 So,
00:14:16.720 are you dealing with
00:14:17.320 a lot with the families
00:14:18.240 then as well as,
00:14:19.240 you know,
00:14:19.380 working with authorities
00:14:20.220 and,
00:14:20.580 and of course,
00:14:21.280 the,
00:14:21.500 the victim,
00:14:22.180 I guess,
00:14:22.400 in some cases
00:14:23.000 and that actually
00:14:23.700 committing the crime?
00:14:25.100 Yeah,
00:14:25.280 absolutely.
00:14:26.860 Kidnappings in particular
00:14:28.000 and I,
00:14:28.380 and I probably work
00:14:29.020 more kidnappings
00:14:29.800 than anybody else
00:14:32.640 in the U.S.
00:14:33.920 I mean,
00:14:34.120 there's a few guys
00:14:34.780 internationally
00:14:35.420 that have worked
00:14:35.980 as many cases
00:14:36.780 in as many places
00:14:38.080 as I have.
00:14:39.580 Yeah,
00:14:39.960 kidnappings are about
00:14:40.740 the families
00:14:41.440 and the,
00:14:42.560 the entire ball game
00:14:43.660 is the families,
00:14:44.480 you know,
00:14:44.700 the families are 90%
00:14:45.900 of the game
00:14:46.460 which a lot of people
00:14:48.040 can't understand
00:14:48.740 after the fact
00:14:49.660 that they're paying
00:14:50.540 more attention to it
00:14:51.580 recently as much more
00:14:53.320 as we've learned
00:14:54.020 about psychological reaction
00:14:55.900 and post-traumatic stress
00:14:57.800 with family members
00:14:58.500 but yeah,
00:14:59.200 dealing,
00:14:59.800 doing a lot of dealing
00:15:00.500 with families
00:15:01.060 and just being there
00:15:02.080 for a family
00:15:03.160 in their darkest hour
00:15:04.380 because there's,
00:15:05.540 you know,
00:15:05.760 the devastation
00:15:06.520 of a kidnapping
00:15:07.060 on a family
00:15:08.040 to give you an example
00:15:10.140 in,
00:15:11.620 you know,
00:15:11.860 both in Iraq
00:15:12.680 when kidnapping
00:15:13.360 was out of control
00:15:14.180 in Iraq
00:15:14.740 for kidnapping
00:15:15.480 for ransom in Colombia
00:15:16.620 when it was a much worse
00:15:17.600 problem than it is now.
00:15:19.960 An entire family
00:15:21.160 is more likely to move
00:15:22.540 as a result
00:15:23.160 of a kidnapping
00:15:23.880 than if one
00:15:24.920 of their family members
00:15:25.780 is murdered.
00:15:26.940 The data shows us
00:15:28.360 and that's what happened
00:15:29.440 to Colombia
00:15:30.020 through the 80s
00:15:30.940 and through the 90s
00:15:32.020 until things really begin
00:15:33.540 to settle out
00:15:34.020 in the last 10 years.
00:15:35.580 A victim,
00:15:36.400 a family would have a,
00:15:37.720 someone in their family
00:15:38.300 get kidnapped,
00:15:38.900 the entire family
00:15:39.620 would leave the country.
00:15:42.300 Whereas if somebody
00:15:43.880 got killed,
00:15:44.560 they would be more
00:15:45.320 than likely to stay
00:15:46.260 and that had
00:15:46.780 a tremendous brain drain
00:15:48.360 on Colombia
00:15:50.380 because they lost
00:15:51.740 thousands
00:15:52.480 of professionals
00:15:53.840 to other countries
00:15:55.040 because of kidnappings
00:15:57.080 and it really destroyed
00:15:58.280 their economy
00:15:58.880 which they're still
00:15:59.460 trying to recover from.
00:16:00.840 Why is a family
00:16:01.600 more likely to leave
00:16:02.460 in a kidnapping situation
00:16:03.840 versus a murder?
00:16:05.400 Well,
00:16:06.160 I don't know
00:16:07.860 all the entire reasons
00:16:09.340 for that.
00:16:09.820 I mean,
00:16:10.000 some of it is
00:16:10.840 in a homicide,
00:16:12.980 even a senseless homicide,
00:16:14.620 a crime of passion
00:16:15.500 was a crime of passion
00:16:16.540 against a person.
00:16:18.440 Then that was consummated
00:16:20.200 and it was over
00:16:21.100 and the objective was met.
00:16:23.700 But in a kidnapping,
00:16:24.840 you nail one member
00:16:26.120 of the family,
00:16:26.760 there's a pretty good chance
00:16:27.480 the other people
00:16:27.980 are going to get grabbed next.
00:16:29.600 Interesting.
00:16:30.140 Because if you ransomed
00:16:31.220 out a brother,
00:16:31.960 you ransomed out an uncle,
00:16:33.320 you ransomed out a doctor,
00:16:35.240 now there are other
00:16:36.160 family members
00:16:36.940 that are there
00:16:37.500 for the taking
00:16:38.300 and the situation
00:16:40.420 was so horrific
00:16:41.500 for the family,
00:16:42.760 they just can't
00:16:43.700 tolerate it again.
00:16:44.800 They would rather
00:16:45.960 leave behind
00:16:47.000 everything they own
00:16:48.240 than to go through
00:16:49.760 that again
00:16:50.360 with another family member
00:16:51.480 and that's why
00:16:52.220 they pick up
00:16:52.700 and they left Colombia.
00:16:54.720 All the professionals
00:16:55.500 left Iraq
00:16:56.280 in the early part
00:16:58.020 from 2002
00:16:59.680 to 2010.
00:17:02.540 There aren't any
00:17:03.140 professionals left in Iraq
00:17:04.260 which is one of the reasons
00:17:05.160 why that country
00:17:05.860 descended into the kind
00:17:06.740 of chaos that it did
00:17:07.640 because the doctors,
00:17:09.180 the lawyers,
00:17:09.580 the businessmen,
00:17:10.280 they're like,
00:17:10.600 we're out of here.
00:17:11.140 We're not sticking around
00:17:11.840 for this.
00:17:12.540 Right, right.
00:17:13.060 They don't need to stay there.
00:17:13.940 So I want to shift gears
00:17:15.220 here a little bit
00:17:15.780 because I think
00:17:16.380 there's some obvious
00:17:17.240 applicable lessons
00:17:19.000 that we can extract
00:17:19.740 from what you teach
00:17:20.860 in your book.
00:17:22.140 I hope so.
00:17:23.160 I hope so.
00:17:23.840 Otherwise,
00:17:24.260 why would you have
00:17:24.760 written it, right?
00:17:26.680 Because the odds
00:17:27.900 of us becoming
00:17:28.680 a professional negotiator
00:17:29.820 are slim to none.
00:17:31.140 So I want to talk
00:17:32.320 with you about
00:17:33.360 maybe some of
00:17:34.100 the applications
00:17:34.780 of the things
00:17:35.280 that you've learned
00:17:35.800 over your career
00:17:36.560 as a negotiator
00:17:38.680 and how we can apply
00:17:39.940 this into our lives.
00:17:41.100 Let me jump in
00:17:41.740 because, I mean,
00:17:42.380 in reality,
00:17:42.980 we're all professional
00:17:43.940 negotiators.
00:17:44.780 I mean,
00:17:45.760 we were all in,
00:17:47.360 we're probably
00:17:47.920 in five negotiations
00:17:49.120 today.
00:17:49.760 If the word yes
00:17:50.760 is in play,
00:17:51.520 you're in a negotiation.
00:17:52.480 The most dangerous
00:17:53.040 negotiation
00:17:53.620 is one you don't
00:17:54.780 know you're in.
00:17:55.480 If the words
00:17:56.300 I want
00:17:57.200 are in your head,
00:17:59.120 you're in a negotiation
00:18:00.080 because you're trying
00:18:00.920 to influence an outcome,
00:18:02.560 you're trying
00:18:02.900 to get something,
00:18:04.140 you're trying
00:18:04.480 to use your words
00:18:05.600 to get it,
00:18:06.160 and that means
00:18:06.900 you're in a negotiation.
00:18:07.800 The most dangerous
00:18:08.280 negotiation
00:18:08.840 is the one
00:18:09.220 you don't know
00:18:09.600 you're in.
00:18:09.880 So, in reality,
00:18:11.440 we're all de facto
00:18:12.680 professional negotiators
00:18:14.320 for our own lives.
00:18:16.320 Men, if you have not yet
00:18:17.420 checked out
00:18:17.940 the Iron Council,
00:18:18.800 this is the perfect month
00:18:19.720 as thinking about
00:18:20.820 New Year's resolutions
00:18:21.580 is on just about
00:18:22.760 everybody's mind.
00:18:23.800 So, whether you're
00:18:24.300 a New Year's resolutions
00:18:25.100 guy or not,
00:18:26.280 if you really want
00:18:27.080 to change in your life,
00:18:28.420 something is going
00:18:29.240 to have to change.
00:18:30.220 The challenge, though,
00:18:30.940 is that sometimes
00:18:31.660 you just don't know
00:18:32.780 what you don't know.
00:18:34.020 And this is where
00:18:34.540 the Iron Council comes in.
00:18:35.560 You'll have access
00:18:36.060 to 170 high-achieving men,
00:18:37.780 including me,
00:18:38.360 as I am very involved
00:18:39.860 in the group,
00:18:40.460 but you'll also have access
00:18:41.560 to the 12-week battle plan,
00:18:43.100 which is going to help you
00:18:44.040 identify key objectives
00:18:45.320 and resources,
00:18:46.200 and you'll have access
00:18:47.440 to over a year's worth
00:18:48.620 of content and material
00:18:49.600 designed to give you
00:18:50.600 the guidance,
00:18:51.440 direction,
00:18:52.380 and clarity
00:18:53.000 to crush it in life.
00:18:54.380 So, you can learn more
00:18:55.200 about the Iron Council
00:18:56.280 and get signed up
00:18:57.060 at orderofman.com
00:18:58.120 slash ironcouncil,
00:18:59.140 which, by the way,
00:18:59.920 will direct you
00:19:00.560 to our newest website.
00:19:02.380 Again, you can check that out
00:19:03.320 at orderofman.com
00:19:04.440 slash ironcouncil.
00:19:05.300 I hope to see you there,
00:19:06.740 but let's get back
00:19:07.280 to my interview
00:19:07.860 with Chris.
00:19:09.800 How does one
00:19:10.980 come to terms with,
00:19:12.660 and I don't know
00:19:13.120 if this is the right term
00:19:14.080 necessarily,
00:19:14.740 but I look at
00:19:15.440 what you've done
00:19:16.060 as a career
00:19:16.620 as managing
00:19:18.460 a negative situation
00:19:19.540 versus a negotiation
00:19:20.960 that a civilian
00:19:22.200 might find themselves in
00:19:23.440 is managing
00:19:24.520 what could potentially
00:19:25.440 be a win-win situation.
00:19:27.180 How do you reconcile
00:19:29.100 the two?
00:19:30.260 Well, yeah,
00:19:30.800 and they're great clues
00:19:32.320 to manage
00:19:33.080 in a negative situation
00:19:34.420 into a win-win,
00:19:35.720 and one of those
00:19:36.800 great clues are,
00:19:38.220 you know,
00:19:38.620 there was Danny Kahneman
00:19:40.240 wrote a book called
00:19:41.380 Thinking Fast and Slow,
00:19:43.240 and he and Amos Tversky
00:19:44.620 developed a theory
00:19:45.780 called Prospect Theory,
00:19:46.980 which they won
00:19:48.000 the Nobel Prize for
00:19:50.300 in behavioral economics,
00:19:52.440 and what I love
00:19:53.520 about this is,
00:19:54.480 like,
00:19:54.580 this is the common man's
00:19:56.040 approach to life.
00:19:56.980 This is not
00:19:57.600 the PhD's approach
00:19:59.320 to life.
00:19:59.820 Kahneman and Tversky
00:20:00.800 said, you know,
00:20:01.720 how do people
00:20:02.240 actually react?
00:20:03.260 I mean,
00:20:03.440 what makes us tick?
00:20:04.860 How do we make
00:20:05.540 our decisions
00:20:06.180 instead of what
00:20:07.360 the game theory guys
00:20:08.640 and the prisoner's
00:20:09.400 dilemma guys
00:20:10.380 and all the stats guys,
00:20:13.200 you know,
00:20:13.460 like,
00:20:13.720 you should do this
00:20:14.340 because this is rational.
00:20:16.180 Well,
00:20:16.540 we don't do it like that,
00:20:18.180 and the biggest thing
00:20:19.600 is that they found,
00:20:20.860 and there were two aspects
00:20:22.000 to this Nobel Prize
00:20:23.560 winning idea.
00:20:24.880 We're motivated
00:20:25.560 more by loss,
00:20:27.020 and loss
00:20:28.060 stings twice as much
00:20:30.220 as an equivalent gain
00:20:31.580 and we're more likely
00:20:33.260 to take a risk
00:20:34.280 to avoid a loss
00:20:35.580 than we ought
00:20:35.980 to achieve an outcome.
00:20:37.660 So,
00:20:38.120 instead of trying to sell
00:20:39.580 or take a risk
00:20:41.820 for loss
00:20:42.340 instead of achieve a gain.
00:20:44.740 So,
00:20:45.100 you want to sell somebody,
00:20:46.780 you say,
00:20:47.400 okay,
00:20:48.420 do nothing
00:20:49.240 and here's what you lose.
00:20:50.980 Interesting.
00:20:51.720 Okay.
00:20:52.540 Sit tight,
00:20:54.100 don't change a thing,
00:20:55.820 and here's what it's going
00:20:58.000 to cost you
00:20:58.920 if you do nothing.
00:21:01.020 And then all of a sudden
00:21:01.840 people go like,
00:21:02.520 holy cow,
00:21:03.360 you know,
00:21:03.840 I got to make a move,
00:21:04.620 I got to make a decision
00:21:05.440 because if I don't,
00:21:06.620 I'm going to lose.
00:21:08.540 And that's prospect theory.
00:21:10.000 There was a businessman
00:21:11.440 that sold
00:21:12.660 retirement packages
00:21:14.820 to companies
00:21:16.320 because they're trying
00:21:17.800 to put golden handcuffs
00:21:18.860 on their executives.
00:21:19.820 Right,
00:21:20.120 right.
00:21:20.400 If you give an executive
00:21:22.820 a great retirement package
00:21:24.320 but he's got to stay
00:21:25.640 with you to keep it,
00:21:27.220 then you're going to hang
00:21:28.040 on to that executive
00:21:28.920 because you're negotiating
00:21:30.460 his future,
00:21:31.140 his future vision
00:21:31.880 of his life.
00:21:32.780 You can pay that guy less
00:21:34.020 if the retirement package
00:21:35.760 is good.
00:21:36.800 I'm assuming this is where
00:21:38.340 the concept
00:21:39.060 and the idea
00:21:39.620 of fear of missing out
00:21:41.160 comes into play,
00:21:41.940 correct?
00:21:42.380 Yes,
00:21:42.840 yes,
00:21:43.260 yes,
00:21:43.480 yes,
00:21:43.720 yes,
00:21:43.920 exactly.
00:21:44.940 F-O-M-O,
00:21:45.800 right,
00:21:46.060 which is huge
00:21:46.820 in our society.
00:21:48.020 And so this guy
00:21:48.720 would just go to companies
00:21:49.900 and say,
00:21:50.400 look,
00:21:50.620 let me review
00:21:51.280 your retirement plan
00:21:52.520 and yeah,
00:21:54.520 it won't cost you a dime
00:21:55.720 and if I think it's fine,
00:21:57.300 I won't make any recommendations.
00:21:59.240 And of course,
00:21:59.700 you go through the plan
00:22:00.620 and then you come back
00:22:01.440 and you say,
00:22:01.840 okay,
00:22:02.980 this is what the status quo
00:22:04.300 is costing you.
00:22:05.480 Don't change any one
00:22:06.640 of these plans,
00:22:07.360 leave them exactly
00:22:07.940 as they are
00:22:08.540 and here's how much
00:22:09.780 it's going to cost
00:22:10.780 your executives
00:22:11.400 each and every single day.
00:22:13.120 And that scares
00:22:13.600 the hell out of people.
00:22:14.480 They're like,
00:22:14.740 oh my God,
00:22:15.160 we've got to make a change.
00:22:16.760 And it's counterintuitive
00:22:17.740 because in sales,
00:22:18.900 most of the time,
00:22:19.600 we're supposed to say,
00:22:21.020 here's what you're going to get.
00:22:22.400 You know,
00:22:22.600 here's the gain
00:22:23.340 that you're going to make.
00:22:24.700 You know,
00:22:24.920 you're going to get
00:22:25.440 all this great stuff.
00:22:27.000 I mean,
00:22:27.300 I'm out here in Los Angeles
00:22:28.800 and I wanted to approach,
00:22:32.660 I wanted to have somebody
00:22:33.640 approach Mark Wahlberg
00:22:34.920 on my behalf
00:22:35.780 to come and speak
00:22:36.820 in my negotiation course.
00:22:38.840 And the person
00:22:39.500 that I had make the approach,
00:22:41.340 I thought he had it figured out.
00:22:43.680 And unfortunately,
00:22:44.280 he didn't understand
00:22:45.320 and he fell back
00:22:46.620 to his old
00:22:47.240 sell,
00:22:48.060 sell,
00:22:48.380 sell.
00:22:48.820 Ah,
00:22:49.220 yes.
00:22:49.620 And so he contacted
00:22:50.840 Mark Wahlberg's agent
00:22:52.040 and his people
00:22:54.040 and said,
00:22:54.780 do you think Mark Wahlberg
00:22:56.060 would like to speak
00:22:56.860 at a prestigious business school?
00:22:59.280 So that's the dumbest
00:23:00.480 approach in a planet.
00:23:01.840 You're asking Mark Wahlberg
00:23:03.780 if he wants prestige.
00:23:05.820 Right.
00:23:06.320 Someone that already
00:23:07.000 has some of that.
00:23:08.280 Yeah,
00:23:08.540 he's got more
00:23:09.520 than what he needs.
00:23:10.240 He's like,
00:23:10.540 I got too much to do
00:23:11.600 as it is now.
00:23:12.320 You're selling me prestige?
00:23:13.960 Exactly.
00:23:14.200 That's ridiculous.
00:23:15.160 But it was selling the gain
00:23:16.500 because the agent
00:23:18.840 that I had working for me
00:23:19.840 at the time
00:23:20.260 who now no longer
00:23:21.040 works for me,
00:23:22.160 he was embedded
00:23:23.360 in this old school stuff
00:23:24.980 where we sell the gain.
00:23:26.520 What would have been
00:23:27.020 a better approach?
00:23:28.440 Does the world see you
00:23:30.160 as a great negotiator?
00:23:32.040 Hmm.
00:23:32.860 Because the answer
00:23:33.460 to that is no.
00:23:34.160 No.
00:23:34.580 Right.
00:23:35.060 He hasn't proved himself
00:23:35.940 as that.
00:23:37.120 Right.
00:23:37.940 So the world
00:23:39.500 and the world
00:23:40.060 does not see him
00:23:40.780 as a great negotiator.
00:23:41.540 They see him
00:23:41.940 as an incredibly
00:23:43.900 entertaining actor.
00:23:45.460 But in my view,
00:23:46.500 he's got to be
00:23:47.020 one of the best negotiators
00:23:48.020 in Hollywood
00:23:48.500 because look at
00:23:49.520 who collaborates
00:23:50.380 with this guy.
00:23:51.580 I mean,
00:23:51.740 he's had everybody
00:23:52.740 from Denzel Washington
00:23:53.760 to The Rock
00:23:54.440 to Jerry Jones
00:23:55.500 to Mark Cuban
00:23:56.440 either be on,
00:23:58.380 to Bono,
00:23:59.880 either be in a movie
00:24:00.760 with him
00:24:01.200 or be on his TV show.
00:24:02.640 Right.
00:24:03.380 This guy's ability
00:24:04.460 to negotiate
00:24:05.220 is out of control.
00:24:06.160 I don't think
00:24:07.160 there's anybody
00:24:07.640 in Hollywood
00:24:08.200 who's collaborated
00:24:08.980 with as many
00:24:09.840 different people
00:24:10.600 as he is.
00:24:11.580 And in my view,
00:24:12.200 that makes
00:24:12.460 a great negotiator.
00:24:14.120 That's interesting.
00:24:14.580 How does somebody
00:24:15.160 apply this fear
00:24:16.720 of missing out
00:24:17.260 or this,
00:24:17.560 I guess,
00:24:18.520 negative component
00:24:19.180 or missing out
00:24:19.740 type component
00:24:20.380 to something
00:24:21.380 as applicable
00:24:22.060 as negotiating
00:24:23.640 a raise
00:24:24.180 or a promotion
00:24:26.260 within their
00:24:26.760 current company?
00:24:28.240 Well,
00:24:28.620 all right.
00:24:29.140 So a great question
00:24:30.440 to ask your boss
00:24:31.140 is do you want me
00:24:31.780 to fail?
00:24:33.280 Yeah,
00:24:33.880 sure.
00:24:34.880 And then,
00:24:35.480 because you'd be
00:24:36.520 stunned at what people
00:24:37.480 are willing to say
00:24:38.420 no to.
00:24:39.940 And to say no
00:24:40.620 to that is to
00:24:41.160 protect them
00:24:41.640 from loss.
00:24:42.760 So they're going
00:24:43.480 to say no
00:24:44.020 to that.
00:24:44.980 They ain't a boss
00:24:45.920 on a planet
00:24:46.540 who,
00:24:47.940 even if he just
00:24:48.520 fired you,
00:24:49.920 you could have
00:24:50.360 asked him,
00:24:50.760 did you want me
00:24:51.380 to fail?
00:24:52.260 You know,
00:24:52.820 no one is ever
00:24:54.180 going to say yes
00:24:54.940 to that.
00:24:55.500 Right,
00:24:55.860 right.
00:24:56.360 So,
00:24:56.960 and yes is protection.
00:24:59.320 I mean,
00:24:59.680 no is protection.
00:25:00.620 Yes is commitment.
00:25:01.900 When we say yes
00:25:02.860 to something,
00:25:03.340 we worry about
00:25:04.060 what we're getting
00:25:04.600 ourselves into
00:25:05.340 and our mind
00:25:06.260 and we hesitate
00:25:07.200 and we back off.
00:25:09.200 You're just
00:25:09.720 trying to get people
00:25:10.980 to say yes
00:25:11.460 there's just such
00:25:12.080 a problem with it.
00:25:13.180 Do you want
00:25:13.520 to make more money?
00:25:14.920 Oh,
00:25:15.200 I know where this
00:25:15.960 is going.
00:25:16.500 Right.
00:25:17.100 You start jumping
00:25:17.820 to conclusions
00:25:18.420 in that question.
00:25:19.740 Right.
00:25:20.300 Immediately.
00:25:20.800 Where's this guy
00:25:21.340 going?
00:25:21.620 What's he trying
00:25:22.060 to lead me into it?
00:25:23.100 Do you want me
00:25:23.520 to fail?
00:25:23.980 No,
00:25:24.200 of course I don't.
00:25:25.620 Do you want
00:25:26.020 to fail?
00:25:26.720 Have you given
00:25:27.540 up on this?
00:25:28.900 Is this a bad idea?
00:25:30.160 Is this ridiculous?
00:25:31.640 As soon as you
00:25:32.200 start triggering
00:25:32.820 no's,
00:25:33.480 the dynamic
00:25:33.940 completely changes.
00:25:35.000 People are
00:25:35.360 protecting themselves
00:25:36.100 from loss
00:25:36.740 and since they
00:25:37.920 also since they
00:25:38.780 just protected
00:25:39.340 themselves from loss
00:25:40.560 now they're more
00:25:41.860 willing to listen
00:25:42.580 because having
00:25:43.080 protected themselves
00:25:44.120 they feel centered
00:25:45.520 and safe
00:25:46.580 which means
00:25:47.660 their ears
00:25:48.080 will open up.
00:25:49.420 So at that point
00:25:50.000 how do you go
00:25:50.660 from getting
00:25:51.220 somebody to say
00:25:51.880 no I don't want
00:25:52.360 you to fail
00:25:52.680 and now transitioning
00:25:53.540 into getting a yes
00:25:54.780 I am going
00:25:55.300 to give you a raise
00:25:55.980 or yes I am going
00:25:56.700 to promote you?
00:25:58.140 Well,
00:25:58.440 the path to yes
00:25:59.520 is paved
00:26:00.240 with the words
00:26:01.180 that's right
00:26:02.060 which is not
00:26:03.260 your right.
00:26:03.880 I mean ultimately
00:26:04.520 at some point
00:26:05.120 in time
00:26:05.460 you want agreement
00:26:06.180 you don't necessarily
00:26:07.000 want people
00:26:07.540 to say yes
00:26:08.080 what you really
00:26:09.040 want them to do
00:26:09.660 is say
00:26:10.020 that's right
00:26:11.440 because when they
00:26:12.380 say that's right
00:26:13.080 they say it
00:26:13.700 like I did
00:26:14.680 just now
00:26:15.280 they have just
00:26:16.500 agreed that
00:26:17.320 something is
00:26:17.880 a complete truth
00:26:19.260 and they've
00:26:19.740 embraced it
00:26:20.460 and when you
00:26:21.640 get,
00:26:22.340 it's Covey's
00:26:23.240 advice from
00:26:23.920 way back when
00:26:24.560 when Stephen
00:26:25.420 Covey
00:26:25.900 the seven habits
00:26:26.780 of highly
00:26:27.200 effective people
00:26:28.140 said seek
00:26:28.940 first to understand
00:26:29.660 then be understood.
00:26:31.140 If you want
00:26:31.880 to get your point
00:26:32.500 across to somebody
00:26:33.200 else they have
00:26:34.920 to feel like
00:26:35.400 they've been
00:26:35.800 understood by you
00:26:36.820 at which point
00:26:37.400 in time they
00:26:37.940 drop their guard
00:26:38.600 and they start
00:26:39.000 to listen.
00:26:40.440 The only thing
00:26:41.600 people say
00:26:42.480 when they feel
00:26:43.540 that they've
00:26:44.320 been understood
00:26:44.840 is that's right.
00:26:47.600 They don't say
00:26:48.200 you're right
00:26:48.920 because you're
00:26:49.880 right is the
00:26:50.420 equivalent of
00:26:51.020 look I really
00:26:52.440 like you but
00:26:53.020 please shut up
00:26:53.520 I can't take it
00:26:54.060 anymore.
00:26:54.360 Sure,
00:26:54.660 sure.
00:26:55.060 Is this kind
00:26:55.800 of like trying
00:26:56.520 to in a way
00:26:57.400 make it their
00:26:59.060 idea?
00:26:59.700 Is that what
00:27:00.000 we're talking
00:27:00.320 about here?
00:27:00.740 You know
00:27:02.200 the second
00:27:02.920 step of that
00:27:03.500 it becomes
00:27:03.980 their idea.
00:27:04.520 The first
00:27:04.920 we say
00:27:05.480 that's right
00:27:06.020 when something
00:27:06.580 we believe
00:27:07.280 something is
00:27:07.800 a complete
00:27:08.460 and indisputable
00:27:09.640 truth.
00:27:10.100 Right,
00:27:10.160 a principle.
00:27:11.140 A principle
00:27:11.640 and so then
00:27:12.700 since we
00:27:13.480 pronounced it
00:27:14.200 the principle
00:27:14.700 we pronounced
00:27:15.620 it we then
00:27:16.460 embrace it
00:27:17.000 on the second
00:27:17.480 step so you
00:27:18.300 hit the nail
00:27:19.040 on the head.
00:27:19.800 Yes,
00:27:20.160 okay,
00:27:20.520 I'm understanding
00:27:21.080 now.
00:27:21.660 Talk to me
00:27:22.100 about are there
00:27:22.820 some hard and
00:27:23.420 fast rules
00:27:23.980 that you
00:27:24.740 apply to
00:27:25.680 negotiations
00:27:26.400 that we
00:27:27.180 would be able
00:27:27.540 to apply
00:27:27.880 in our
00:27:28.120 everyday
00:27:28.360 lives?
00:27:29.900 Well,
00:27:30.200 the first
00:27:31.100 thing is that
00:27:31.600 I intentionally
00:27:32.500 trigger people
00:27:33.220 into saying
00:27:33.660 no all the
00:27:34.220 time.
00:27:34.540 I don't try
00:27:34.880 to get people
00:27:35.420 to say yes
00:27:36.040 and then
00:27:37.160 I try to
00:27:38.200 demonstrate
00:27:39.580 that I
00:27:40.140 understand
00:27:40.480 what they're
00:27:40.840 going through
00:27:41.340 by telling
00:27:42.420 them what
00:27:42.740 their perspective
00:27:43.340 is.
00:27:43.680 I never
00:27:43.980 say the
00:27:44.380 words I
00:27:44.760 understand.
00:27:45.660 I understand
00:27:46.380 is very
00:27:46.820 dismissive
00:27:47.540 and actually
00:27:48.700 we never
00:27:50.200 say I
00:27:50.760 understand
00:27:51.380 except when
00:27:52.540 we really
00:27:53.020 disagree.
00:27:54.300 So I
00:27:54.760 understand
00:27:55.440 is also
00:27:55.940 code for
00:27:56.660 please shut
00:27:57.520 up.
00:27:57.760 I'm going
00:27:57.980 to correct
00:27:58.360 you.
00:27:58.940 Right,
00:27:59.180 right.
00:27:59.920 And how
00:28:00.480 could you
00:28:00.840 fully
00:28:01.120 understand
00:28:01.680 what another
00:28:02.080 person is
00:28:02.500 going through
00:28:02.860 as well?
00:28:04.000 You know,
00:28:04.600 exactly.
00:28:05.440 That's a
00:28:05.940 great point.
00:28:06.560 I don't
00:28:06.760 think you
00:28:07.460 can.
00:28:07.860 You can
00:28:08.080 get really
00:28:08.680 close but
00:28:10.120 most of
00:28:11.260 the time
00:28:11.640 they want
00:28:12.160 you to
00:28:13.420 see that
00:28:13.900 the two
00:28:14.220 of you
00:28:14.460 really are
00:28:14.940 different.
00:28:16.000 And they're
00:28:17.060 not interested
00:28:17.640 in you
00:28:18.400 trying to
00:28:18.800 prove that
00:28:19.280 you have
00:28:19.680 all this
00:28:20.000 insight into
00:28:20.580 them but
00:28:20.840 they want
00:28:21.140 to feel
00:28:21.460 that you
00:28:21.720 do.
00:28:22.720 I mean,
00:28:23.080 a long
00:28:23.740 time ago,
00:28:24.360 Mario Cuomo
00:28:25.080 was a great
00:28:25.560 politician and
00:28:26.480 he's a
00:28:27.520 rest in a
00:28:27.900 crowd that's
00:28:28.400 waiting on
00:28:28.940 Winnie Mandela
00:28:29.660 to show up
00:28:30.120 in New York
00:28:30.520 in the early
00:28:30.920 90s.
00:28:31.960 And Cuomo
00:28:32.300 is not just
00:28:33.200 a, he's not
00:28:34.460 just a, to
00:28:35.020 this group in
00:28:35.860 New York, he's
00:28:36.960 not just a
00:28:37.440 Caucasian
00:28:37.920 politician, he's
00:28:38.800 an Italian
00:28:39.420 politician.
00:28:40.580 And that's a
00:28:41.080 completely
00:28:41.440 different thing
00:28:43.300 in New York
00:28:43.860 City because
00:28:44.360 at the time
00:28:44.760 there was
00:28:45.020 tremendous
00:28:45.380 tension between
00:28:46.420 the black
00:28:46.740 community and
00:28:47.140 the Italian
00:28:47.440 community because
00:28:48.140 some black
00:28:48.860 men had been
00:28:49.260 chased into
00:28:49.720 the freeway in
00:28:50.480 an Italian
00:28:50.900 neighborhood.
00:28:51.700 So there
00:28:52.060 was flashpoint
00:28:53.720 tensions and
00:28:54.560 Cuomo stood
00:28:55.180 up in front of
00:28:55.720 this group that
00:28:56.360 was waiting on
00:28:56.920 Winnie Mandela
00:28:57.660 and he said,
00:28:59.300 you know, you're
00:29:00.340 in a society that
00:29:01.740 has not given
00:29:02.320 you a chance.
00:29:04.140 You're in a
00:29:04.780 society that has
00:29:06.160 allowed a country
00:29:07.300 like South
00:29:08.420 Africa to have
00:29:09.720 apartheid for the
00:29:10.820 last 50 years.
00:29:12.380 And he began to
00:29:13.520 lay out point by
00:29:14.720 point by point
00:29:15.680 what their
00:29:16.720 perspective was on
00:29:17.720 the world.
00:29:18.260 and at the
00:29:19.860 beginning of
00:29:20.620 his speech it
00:29:22.700 was clear that
00:29:23.440 they were on
00:29:24.160 the verge of
00:29:24.800 throwing things
00:29:25.540 at him.
00:29:26.560 And in less
00:29:27.660 than four minutes
00:29:28.560 into him he
00:29:29.340 had them cheering
00:29:30.280 for him and
00:29:31.980 clapping and
00:29:33.100 approving everything
00:29:34.000 he said because
00:29:35.300 all he let him
00:29:36.300 he never said
00:29:37.440 I understand
00:29:39.000 where you're
00:29:39.400 coming from.
00:29:40.040 I'm on your
00:29:40.580 side.
00:29:41.840 All he did
00:29:42.900 was say this
00:29:44.100 is how the
00:29:44.620 world looks to
00:29:45.400 you.
00:29:46.460 And by
00:29:46.720 stating that
00:29:47.580 that's why
00:29:48.800 Cuomo kept
00:29:49.500 getting re-elected
00:29:50.720 term after
00:29:52.360 term after
00:29:53.040 term.
00:29:53.420 He could have
00:29:53.760 been governor
00:29:54.220 of New York
00:29:54.700 for as long
00:29:55.240 as for a
00:29:56.340 thousand years
00:29:56.960 if he wanted
00:29:57.540 to.
00:29:57.820 He just got
00:29:58.220 tired of being
00:29:58.720 governor and
00:29:59.280 decided not to
00:29:59.820 run anymore.
00:30:01.040 Is this a level
00:30:02.080 of empathy?
00:30:02.880 Because I'm
00:30:03.200 sure he doesn't
00:30:04.080 know, right?
00:30:05.320 He doesn't
00:30:05.720 completely understand
00:30:06.680 but he can see
00:30:07.500 that perspective.
00:30:09.420 It's absolute
00:30:10.500 empathy.
00:30:11.140 It's what
00:30:11.420 Daniel Goleman
00:30:12.920 coined the
00:30:14.000 phrase emotional
00:30:14.680 intelligence.
00:30:15.400 In his latest
00:30:15.900 book, Focus,
00:30:17.560 he talks about
00:30:18.220 the three types
00:30:18.920 of empathy and
00:30:19.600 one of them
00:30:20.080 he refers to
00:30:20.720 as cognitive
00:30:21.360 empathy and
00:30:21.980 that's exactly
00:30:22.560 what it is.
00:30:23.580 You don't have
00:30:24.060 to feel it
00:30:24.720 at all to
00:30:26.080 be able to
00:30:26.460 see it, to
00:30:27.020 be able to
00:30:27.380 identify it.
00:30:28.360 And he said
00:30:28.960 that this is
00:30:30.440 in fact what
00:30:31.380 sociopaths are
00:30:32.740 best at.
00:30:33.260 That's why
00:30:33.560 sociopaths are
00:30:34.320 so good at
00:30:34.840 manipulating us
00:30:35.640 because they
00:30:36.500 can see our
00:30:37.080 emotions and
00:30:38.240 then they can
00:30:38.700 manipulate them
00:30:39.460 from us and
00:30:40.040 clearly they don't
00:30:40.800 feel those same
00:30:41.440 emotions.
00:30:41.980 So it's not
00:30:42.400 about feeling,
00:30:43.080 it's about
00:30:43.360 seeing it.
00:30:44.040 Right.
00:30:44.260 Let's talk
00:30:45.340 about your
00:30:45.760 book which is
00:30:46.580 called Never
00:30:46.980 Split the Difference
00:30:47.840 which is
00:30:48.340 interesting to
00:30:48.780 me because I
00:30:49.560 think the way
00:30:50.560 that I would
00:30:51.260 typically view
00:30:52.200 negotiation would
00:30:53.140 be somewhat of
00:30:53.900 a compromise and
00:30:54.880 you're in a way
00:30:55.760 telling us that
00:30:56.380 it's not.
00:30:56.920 Tell me a little
00:30:57.280 bit about the
00:30:57.680 premise of the
00:30:58.140 book.
00:30:58.380 Yeah, because as
00:30:59.420 a hostage negotiator
00:31:00.520 how am I
00:31:00.860 supposed to
00:31:01.240 compromise?
00:31:01.920 If there are
00:31:02.200 four hostages
00:31:02.920 in a bank
00:31:03.440 what am I
00:31:03.800 supposed to do?
00:31:04.300 Say I'll
00:31:04.540 take two and
00:31:05.240 we'll call it
00:31:06.000 a day?
00:31:06.400 Yeah, great
00:31:06.820 point.
00:31:07.680 So I learned
00:31:08.280 my negotiation
00:31:09.140 from the very
00:31:09.720 beginning on
00:31:10.700 the following
00:31:11.680 premises.
00:31:12.320 I'm not going
00:31:12.760 to compromise.
00:31:14.020 I want the
00:31:14.480 other side to
00:31:15.000 like me and
00:31:16.120 I want them to
00:31:16.660 deal with me
00:31:17.200 again.
00:31:17.540 I'm not going
00:31:17.980 to lie to
00:31:18.600 them and if
00:31:19.440 I give up
00:31:19.980 anything it's
00:31:20.560 going to be
00:31:20.900 tiny.
00:31:21.440 I'm going to
00:31:21.600 get massive
00:31:22.320 things in return.
00:31:23.300 I'm going to
00:31:23.560 give up a pack
00:31:24.700 of cigarettes for
00:31:25.400 a human being.
00:31:28.380 So being
00:31:31.900 restricted like
00:31:32.800 that from the
00:31:33.280 very beginning
00:31:33.880 then we had to
00:31:34.620 learn these
00:31:35.540 emotional intelligence
00:31:36.460 skills to get
00:31:37.180 people to do
00:31:37.800 stuff.
00:31:38.880 And that's what
00:31:39.320 hostage negotiation
00:31:40.180 is.
00:31:40.700 It's emotional
00:31:41.220 intelligence on
00:31:42.000 steroids.
00:31:42.620 It's weaponized
00:31:43.400 empathy if you
00:31:44.180 will.
00:31:44.700 I like that.
00:31:45.400 It makes sense.
00:31:45.740 Military grade
00:31:46.780 empathy.
00:31:47.400 That's why we
00:31:47.760 call it tactical
00:31:48.540 empathy because it
00:31:50.000 gets things done.
00:31:51.960 And if the
00:31:52.280 patterns in
00:31:53.300 crisis situations
00:31:54.820 are only more
00:31:56.900 intense but the
00:31:57.540 same,
00:31:58.380 then can we
00:31:59.480 use this stuff
00:32:00.260 in day-to-day
00:32:01.180 life?
00:32:01.580 And I've got to
00:32:02.140 tell you something.
00:32:03.800 I've been in
00:32:04.500 staff meetings and
00:32:05.340 offices where people
00:32:06.420 were every bit as
00:32:07.380 nuts as they were
00:32:08.220 in prison riots.
00:32:09.820 Sure, sure.
00:32:10.900 I've experienced
00:32:11.580 that too.
00:32:12.020 I'm sure a lot of
00:32:12.440 guys have.
00:32:13.420 Yeah, so it's
00:32:14.140 just the application
00:32:16.180 and we know so much
00:32:17.500 more about empathy
00:32:18.240 now.
00:32:18.560 We don't even need
00:32:19.120 to call it empathy.
00:32:20.020 That's why we call
00:32:20.640 it tactical empathy.
00:32:22.000 Like I know what's
00:32:22.820 going to happen in
00:32:23.540 your brain when I
00:32:24.920 use certain skills
00:32:25.960 and I know that you
00:32:27.140 could be headed one
00:32:27.860 direction and I
00:32:28.980 can move you 10,
00:32:29.800 15, 20 degrees in
00:32:31.160 another direction and
00:32:32.500 pretty soon if I keep
00:32:33.440 adding to that, I
00:32:34.220 get you going a
00:32:34.880 harder than 80 degrees
00:32:35.840 in a different
00:32:36.300 direction.
00:32:37.260 Only if I'm patient.
00:32:38.540 Patience is a
00:32:39.220 weapon.
00:32:40.360 And in a society
00:32:41.620 where we're in such
00:32:43.020 a hurry and an
00:32:43.680 information overload,
00:32:45.320 like if you can
00:32:46.000 grasp that patience
00:32:47.080 is a weapon, you
00:32:48.480 are now one up on
00:32:49.540 everybody around you
00:32:50.480 anyway.
00:32:51.180 Interesting.
00:32:51.940 Yeah, I've never
00:32:52.360 thought about it that
00:32:52.960 way but that makes a
00:32:53.600 lot of sense.
00:32:53.880 How do you avoid
00:32:54.880 because you said you
00:32:56.700 want the other person
00:32:57.940 or party to like you
00:32:59.040 and maybe I'm jumping
00:33:00.420 to conclusions or
00:33:01.220 making an assumption
00:33:01.860 here but how do you
00:33:03.080 avoid being judgmental
00:33:04.680 of the person you
00:33:05.500 might be communicating
00:33:06.560 with or are you
00:33:07.900 judging them?
00:33:08.420 How does this work?
00:33:09.500 You know, there's
00:33:09.860 something crazy that
00:33:11.380 goes on in the brain
00:33:12.240 and I haven't seen the
00:33:13.040 brain science that
00:33:13.800 explains it exactly yet
00:33:15.020 but as soon as I start
00:33:16.200 focusing on what you're
00:33:18.100 feeling as opposed to
00:33:20.300 whether or not it's
00:33:20.920 right or wrong,
00:33:21.660 number one, it calms
00:33:22.720 me down and I just
00:33:24.360 know it does, I don't
00:33:25.100 know why and the
00:33:26.560 other thing is as soon
00:33:27.960 as I focus on what's
00:33:29.120 driving you as to
00:33:30.180 whether or not where
00:33:31.120 you're going is right
00:33:31.900 or wrong, the judgment
00:33:33.400 gets dropped and I'm
00:33:35.660 just opening my brain
00:33:37.560 to what's really going
00:33:38.340 on and actually if I
00:33:40.680 focus on what's
00:33:41.480 driving you, I get a
00:33:42.280 better handle on where
00:33:43.060 you're going to go
00:33:43.700 anyway and so it makes
00:33:45.580 me smarter and I'm
00:33:47.120 usually able to get
00:33:47.880 two or three steps ahead
00:33:49.000 of the game as soon as
00:33:50.260 I focus on what's
00:33:51.300 driving you because I
00:33:52.160 can predict your
00:33:52.840 direction and I like
00:33:55.180 being able to see where
00:33:56.140 you're going before you
00:33:57.140 do.
00:33:57.960 I could see how this
00:33:58.680 would be very addicting
00:33:59.780 because now you're
00:34:00.260 talking about being
00:34:00.920 moves ahead which is
00:34:02.020 strategy and that's
00:34:03.940 something that definitely
00:34:05.000 appeals to me so I
00:34:05.760 could see how this
00:34:06.280 would be addicting.
00:34:07.240 One of the things you
00:34:07.780 talk about in the book
00:34:09.460 is the new rules so I'm
00:34:10.920 assuming that there are
00:34:12.140 old rules, I'd like to
00:34:13.580 know what some of those
00:34:14.440 old rules are and how
00:34:15.520 those have changed when
00:34:16.640 it comes to negotiations.
00:34:18.260 Well the old rules are
00:34:19.320 that we can come to a
00:34:20.140 wise agreement.
00:34:21.340 I mean what kind of
00:34:21.800 nonsense is that?
00:34:22.680 Sure, yeah.
00:34:23.460 Some people don't want
00:34:24.220 to, right?
00:34:25.020 Or let's separate the
00:34:26.140 person from the problem.
00:34:28.280 You know all this
00:34:28.920 cerebral rational
00:34:30.680 nonsense, the vast
00:34:32.720 majority of the
00:34:33.420 negotiation theory is
00:34:35.200 based on reason,
00:34:37.880 rationality.
00:34:39.240 Well who's
00:34:40.240 reasonable?
00:34:41.440 We make our decisions
00:34:42.540 based on what we care
00:34:43.740 about.
00:34:44.140 not with, and then we
00:34:46.620 come construct a reason
00:34:47.760 after the fact.
00:34:49.240 You know our reason is
00:34:50.480 what we have constructed
00:34:51.680 to justify what matters
00:34:53.320 to us.
00:34:54.540 Which then means by
00:34:55.820 definition we're doing
00:34:57.600 stuff based on what we
00:34:58.580 care about and I don't
00:35:00.360 understand how that's not
00:35:01.400 a synonym for emotional
00:35:02.640 decision making.
00:35:03.620 Right, yeah.
00:35:04.420 Sounds emotional to me.
00:35:05.920 Yeah.
00:35:06.820 So let's start that with,
00:35:08.800 let's start with that with
00:35:09.980 our new rule that people
00:35:12.420 are driven by their
00:35:14.000 passions and, and that's
00:35:16.580 why now people who have
00:35:18.060 high levels of emotional
00:35:19.020 intelligence succeed, you
00:35:21.660 know, far more than
00:35:22.760 anybody else does.
00:35:23.800 You know, the saying your
00:35:24.700 resume gets you in the,
00:35:25.800 in the door, your emotional
00:35:27.560 intelligence gets you
00:35:28.620 hired and then gets you
00:35:29.780 promoted or your lack of
00:35:31.740 it gets you fired.
00:35:33.120 So there's an extreme
00:35:34.620 amount of limitation to
00:35:36.040 rationality and success is
00:35:38.940 really based on emotional
00:35:40.140 intelligence which
00:35:41.160 fortunately now is
00:35:42.300 becoming what we're
00:35:44.100 recognizing in, in
00:35:45.480 American business.
00:35:46.740 So the new rules are
00:35:47.540 basically our new level of
00:35:48.940 understanding that we've,
00:35:50.140 we've found out over time
00:35:51.820 and data and research and,
00:35:53.080 and study, right?
00:35:54.520 Right.
00:35:55.320 And then, and then,
00:35:56.560 then let's add in, you
00:35:58.120 don't have to be talking to
00:35:59.180 be in control.
00:36:00.280 Explain that.
00:36:00.920 You know, you, you, you
00:36:02.280 steer, you steer things
00:36:04.840 with a variety like, there's
00:36:07.000 such a thing called guided
00:36:07.980 discovery questions.
00:36:09.860 Like if I want you to see,
00:36:11.580 see that what you're doing
00:36:13.460 makes no sense, you know,
00:36:15.460 my temptation is, look,
00:36:16.860 can't you see that what
00:36:17.640 you're doing makes no sense?
00:36:18.680 Right.
00:36:18.840 You're an idiot.
00:36:19.500 You're doing this wrong.
00:36:20.300 All of that kind of stuff.
00:36:21.340 Right.
00:36:22.200 Instead I say, okay, you say
00:36:23.640 you want to succeed and you
00:36:25.580 show up to late for work
00:36:27.100 every day.
00:36:27.960 How do those things add up?
00:36:30.100 You know, that's, that's
00:36:31.220 forcing you to look at the
00:36:32.560 situation.
00:36:33.720 You say, you say you want to,
00:36:35.440 you say you don't understand
00:36:37.040 where you don't get promoted
00:36:37.960 on your job and you're on
00:36:40.260 Facebook all afternoon.
00:36:42.020 Yeah.
00:36:42.900 How, how does being on
00:36:44.100 Facebook help you get ahead
00:36:46.120 in the world?
00:36:47.200 Right.
00:36:47.600 Just helping them see things
00:36:48.640 in new light.
00:36:49.700 Helping them see things in a
00:36:50.880 new light.
00:36:51.260 There was, there was a girl
00:36:51.980 I was dating, uh, about a
00:36:54.140 year and a half ago and she's
00:36:55.860 on, she's on, uh, the
00:36:57.600 internet watching this video
00:37:00.060 of this animal that's being
00:37:02.040 in another country that's just
00:37:03.600 not being well cared for.
00:37:04.800 And it was just making her
00:37:06.160 feel miserable because her
00:37:07.440 heart is going out to this
00:37:08.380 animal.
00:37:09.380 And I'm sitting there saying
00:37:10.360 I'm like, and I say, and I
00:37:11.980 say to her, how does watching
00:37:12.960 that make you a better
00:37:13.660 person?
00:37:14.440 Because it was putting her in
00:37:15.680 an emotional downward spiral,
00:37:17.560 which is then going to mean
00:37:18.420 she's going to be, she's not
00:37:19.500 going to be thinking as well.
00:37:20.380 She's going to be in a bad
00:37:21.120 mood for the rest of the day.
00:37:22.560 I mean, there's, there's nine
00:37:23.440 or 10 things that are quite
00:37:24.900 obvious coming out of that.
00:37:26.220 She's watching it because she
00:37:27.240 thinks she's got compassion for
00:37:29.100 animals and compassion for
00:37:30.300 people.
00:37:31.020 What it is, is contributing to
00:37:32.540 her being a very angry
00:37:33.520 person.
00:37:34.020 Interesting.
00:37:35.060 Okay.
00:37:35.820 So I, and instead of, I want
00:37:38.780 to say, can't you see what
00:37:39.760 this is doing to you by
00:37:40.660 watching that stupid video?
00:37:41.940 That's what I will say.
00:37:42.920 Of course.
00:37:44.080 But instead I say, you know,
00:37:45.360 how's this making you a
00:37:46.240 better person?
00:37:47.220 And she realized it was
00:37:48.500 actually working because she
00:37:50.060 wanted to be a better person,
00:37:51.200 but it was doing, having the
00:37:52.200 opposite effect on her that
00:37:53.020 she wanted.
00:37:53.740 I mean, that, that's, that's
00:37:54.800 how we, and then you got to
00:37:55.980 shut up because I'm not
00:37:56.820 talking, trying to make my
00:37:57.800 point.
00:37:58.120 I'm asking a good question
00:38:01.060 which causes someone to
00:38:03.440 critically think about
00:38:04.660 something.
00:38:05.040 And then I'm shutting up and
00:38:06.060 steady, stepping back and
00:38:07.460 letting them reach their own
00:38:08.200 conclusion, which there's
00:38:09.100 really only one conclusion
00:38:10.020 anyway.
00:38:10.440 They just don't know it.
00:38:11.500 They haven't seen it yet.
00:38:12.120 And now they'll come to that
00:38:13.240 conclusion.
00:38:13.860 And this is, I think this is a
00:38:14.800 great model for coaching.
00:38:16.000 Anybody who's listening, who
00:38:17.000 is a great coach, who is
00:38:18.180 helping other people, even
00:38:19.640 just leading your family.
00:38:20.640 I think it is important that
00:38:21.680 you have your kids and your
00:38:22.800 wife and whoever you're
00:38:23.620 dealing with come to their
00:38:24.400 own conclusions, right?
00:38:26.000 Exactly.
00:38:26.460 Because people are much more
00:38:27.560 on board when it's their
00:38:29.740 conclusion.
00:38:30.860 Makes sense.
00:38:31.100 It gets us to hold back,
00:38:32.560 this hold back to this thing
00:38:33.600 of the difference between
00:38:34.140 that's right and you're right.
00:38:35.240 Because when you say you're
00:38:36.100 right to someone, it's your
00:38:38.480 conclusion.
00:38:39.140 I haven't embraced it.
00:38:40.520 Well, Chris, this has been
00:38:41.540 fascinating.
00:38:42.180 We are winding down on time.
00:38:43.660 I do want to ask you one
00:38:44.660 practical question and that is
00:38:46.480 outside of reading the book
00:38:47.520 because we're going to give the
00:38:48.380 guys an opportunity to know
00:38:49.440 where to get this book and how
00:38:50.640 to connect with you.
00:38:51.820 What are some or maybe even
00:38:53.340 just one or two practical
00:38:55.000 steps that somebody could
00:38:56.320 implement today that would
00:38:58.240 help them be a better
00:38:59.740 negotiator?
00:39:01.240 Well, first of all, let the
00:39:03.080 other side go first.
00:39:04.460 Do the effective pause.
00:39:05.520 There's a pretty good chance
00:39:06.200 they're going to talk
00:39:06.660 themselves into what you want
00:39:08.020 anyway.
00:39:08.820 So give them a chance to talk
00:39:10.120 themselves into your deal.
00:39:11.060 Some people have referred to
00:39:12.360 negotiation as the art of
00:39:13.500 letting the other side have
00:39:15.020 your way.
00:39:16.600 Well, this is how you do it.
00:39:17.860 You got to be willing to let
00:39:19.040 them talk.
00:39:20.620 And then secondly, instead of
00:39:21.580 trying to get them to say yes,
00:39:23.280 see what it takes to get them
00:39:24.800 to say that's right.
00:39:26.140 You know, don't move forward in
00:39:27.640 any interaction and again, know
00:39:30.500 the difference between that's
00:39:31.620 right and you're right.
00:39:32.920 Just today in your conversations,
00:39:34.840 anybody that listens to this,
00:39:36.060 instead of trying to get things
00:39:38.020 done today, try to collect
00:39:40.400 that's right.
00:39:41.200 See how many you can get
00:39:42.140 through the day and then see
00:39:43.300 how your day changes.
00:39:44.800 Just do that for 24 hours.
00:39:47.320 See what happens.
00:39:48.080 Do it for one day.
00:39:48.840 I promise you, you're going to
00:39:50.380 be delighted.
00:39:51.560 Interesting.
00:39:52.140 All right.
00:39:52.380 I'm going to take you up on
00:39:53.140 that challenge and hopefully
00:39:53.880 the guys listening will as
00:39:55.000 well.
00:39:55.760 So as we're winding down on
00:39:56.780 time, I do want to ask you a
00:39:57.980 question I ask all of my
00:39:59.000 guests, Chris, and that is
00:40:00.060 what does it mean to be a
00:40:01.500 man?
00:40:02.760 Being willing to take the
00:40:04.140 heat for stuff you think is
00:40:05.760 right.
00:40:06.600 You know, being willing to say
00:40:08.380 stuff and have a lot of
00:40:09.500 people say, that's wrong.
00:40:11.620 How could you say that?
00:40:13.340 You know, it's easy to stand
00:40:15.280 up for what's right when you're
00:40:16.300 not being criticized, but
00:40:17.660 taking the heat for stuff that
00:40:20.020 you believe in your heart, you
00:40:21.280 know, that you think will have
00:40:22.640 negative consequences.
00:40:23.900 Somebody, a number of years,
00:40:26.400 several years ago, a retired FBI
00:40:28.740 agent that I revered, a
00:40:31.740 put a joke on, on the
00:40:32.920 internet that I viewed to be
00:40:34.320 racist and I knew how well
00:40:37.620 regarded he was and I hit
00:40:38.960 reply all and I said, I used
00:40:41.980 to respect you.
00:40:43.780 I don't appreciate this kind of
00:40:45.680 a joke.
00:40:46.160 I find it racist, lose my email
00:40:49.260 and never send me another
00:40:50.500 email.
00:40:51.220 And I was, and I, and I, and
00:40:53.180 I sent that out.
00:40:54.160 I knew how well regarded he
00:40:55.920 was.
00:40:57.260 And I didn't realize a number of
00:41:00.680 people actually sent the exact
00:41:01.960 same email after I sent mine.
00:41:04.400 But, but I remember thinking
00:41:05.420 saying like, if, if I criticize
00:41:06.960 this guy in front of everybody,
00:41:08.640 you know, maybe it makes me look
00:41:11.220 like a jerk, but I just, I
00:41:13.760 like, I, I, I couldn't, I
00:41:15.460 couldn't tolerate it.
00:41:16.300 I, I, I had to say something and
00:41:17.900 I expected it to take a lot of
00:41:19.160 heat for it.
00:41:19.980 And in fact, I got more support
00:41:21.600 than I, than I anticipated.
00:41:23.240 I love that response.
00:41:24.340 That's powerful stuff.
00:41:25.280 And Chris, I want to let you
00:41:26.460 know, I appreciate you taking the
00:41:27.440 time to come on the show and
00:41:28.320 impart some of your wisdom.
00:41:29.120 Let us know how we connect with
00:41:30.540 you, how we find the book, how
00:41:31.640 we find out about what you have
00:41:33.040 going on.
00:41:33.480 And, and of course, use the
00:41:34.680 information you're sharing to
00:41:35.600 improve our lives.
00:41:36.720 All right.
00:41:37.160 The best way to keep up on
00:41:38.340 everything is, you know, my
00:41:40.060 company puts out a twice a month
00:41:42.220 advisory negotiation newsletter,
00:41:43.880 and we include links to where
00:41:47.120 our training is going to be.
00:41:48.520 It shows you where the website
00:41:49.880 is.
00:41:50.560 It shows you where you can get a
00:41:52.140 great price on the book.
00:41:53.260 And the newsletter is free.
00:41:54.680 It doesn't cost anything.
00:41:55.860 It's complimentary.
00:41:56.520 And it comes out twice a month
00:41:58.000 and there's sort of nuggets in
00:42:01.220 every newsletter.
00:42:02.140 They're digestible short pieces on
00:42:04.660 how to negotiate better every
00:42:06.560 single day.
00:42:07.580 And the easiest way to get the
00:42:09.180 newsletter is to text the words
00:42:11.400 that's right.
00:42:12.140 And it's all one word, no spaces,
00:42:14.160 no, no punctuation, T H A T S R I G
00:42:18.260 H T to the number two, two, eight,
00:42:20.720 two, eight.
00:42:21.080 And it's that's right.
00:42:22.840 No spaces, no punctuation to two,
00:42:25.560 two, eight, two, eight.
00:42:26.680 It'll take you to the website,
00:42:28.140 which is black swan ltd.com.
00:42:30.780 But it's the quickest, most direct
00:42:32.620 route to all the resources that we
00:42:34.400 have.
00:42:34.960 And the book, of course, the best
00:42:36.800 prices on Amazon.
00:42:37.780 But we show you that, you know,
00:42:39.780 through our stuff also.
00:42:41.040 So I love helping people get more
00:42:44.700 out of life.
00:42:45.900 Awesome, Chris.
00:42:46.300 Well, we'll make sure we link all
00:42:47.320 that up in the show notes so the
00:42:48.320 guys can check that out.
00:42:49.180 Chris, again, I appreciate you.
00:42:50.220 I appreciate your wisdom.
00:42:51.280 I appreciate you sharing some of
00:42:52.340 this today.
00:42:52.800 And I know it's going to impact a
00:42:53.780 lot of guys who are listening to
00:42:54.700 this.
00:42:54.820 So thanks again for being on the
00:42:55.740 show.
00:42:56.560 Thanks for having me on, Ryan.
00:42:57.720 It was an absolute pleasure.
00:42:59.840 There you have it, man.
00:43:00.700 Mr. Chris Voss teaching us about
00:43:02.220 what it takes to be a better
00:43:03.660 negotiator.
00:43:04.660 I know that the skills that he
00:43:05.740 talked about are going to help
00:43:06.900 you achieve more in your life.
00:43:08.360 So make sure you go buy his
00:43:09.720 book, read it, and then apply.
00:43:11.320 You have to apply this stuff.
00:43:12.420 So apply what you learn.
00:43:14.040 If you need the link for the book
00:43:15.120 or any of the other resources, which
00:43:16.620 Chris did mention a few, you can go
00:43:17.960 to orderaman.com slash
00:43:19.260 zero nine zero.
00:43:21.020 In the meantime, please, if you
00:43:22.240 would leave us an iTunes rating
00:43:23.320 and review, this is going to let
00:43:24.440 me know that you are here, that
00:43:26.320 you're enjoying the show, and it's
00:43:27.820 going to help us get the word out
00:43:28.980 about what we're doing here at the
00:43:30.320 Order of Man.
00:43:30.980 So here's where you go from here,
00:43:32.140 guys.
00:43:32.400 If you want to join the discussion
00:43:33.400 on this topic and all of the
00:43:34.900 discussions that we're having, go
00:43:35.900 to facebook.com slash groups
00:43:37.300 slash Order of Man.
00:43:38.500 And again, if you're a man who
00:43:40.240 wants to take action, you want to
00:43:42.140 line yourself up with the best men
00:43:44.380 for the best year of your life.
00:43:45.760 You need to join us inside the
00:43:47.240 Iron Council at orderofman.com
00:43:48.740 slash ironcouncil.
00:43:50.120 Guys, I look forward to talking
00:43:51.120 with you on Friday for our Friday
00:43:52.420 Field Notes, but until then, take
00:43:53.700 action and become the man you were
00:43:55.760 meant to be.
00:43:56.600 Thank you for listening to the
00:43:57.800 Order of Man podcast.
00:43:59.520 You're ready to take charge of your
00:44:00.840 life and be more of the man you were
00:44:02.640 meant to be.
00:44:03.520 We invite you to join the order at
00:44:05.360 orderofman.com.
00:44:06.700 We'll be right back.