Order of Man - 096： Leadership： Vision, Influence, & Impact ｜ David Burkus

00:00:00.000 As you know by now, leadership lies at the core of what it means to be a man.

00:00:03.820 We've all had great leaders. We've all had horrible leaders.

00:00:06.520 But my guest today, David Berkus, talks with us about what it means to be a leader,

00:00:09.820 how to align your vision with others, how to be more influential,

00:00:12.840 and how to make an impact in the lives of those who matter most.

00:00:16.060 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.

00:00:18.940 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:21.880 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:25.960 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong.

00:00:31.400 This is your life. This is who you are.

00:00:33.900 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:00:36.840 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:41.060 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler,

00:00:43.140 and I am the host and the founder of Order of Man.

00:00:45.200 If you guys are new to the show today, I want to welcome you.

00:00:47.560 But if you've been here with us since the early days, which was a couple of years ago now,

00:00:51.980 I want to welcome you as well.

00:00:53.640 Either way, you guys are listening to the manliest podcast available today.

00:00:57.360 We interview the world's toughest, the strongest, smartest, most successful men.

00:01:01.940 We extract their lessons, their wisdom, and then we deliver it directly to you.

00:01:06.360 Now, we do all of this with the goal of helping you become a better man.

00:01:10.320 That's it. I'm on a mission to be a better father, a better husband,

00:01:13.100 a better businessman, a better community leader.

00:01:14.860 I know you are too. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here.

00:01:16.900 We are here to help.

00:01:17.720 So I've got a great one lined up for you today on the topic of being a more effective leader.

00:01:22.160 But real quickly, let me give you a couple of resources

00:01:24.840 that you'll probably want to delve into a little bit deeper.

00:01:27.700 First, we're going to make all the show notes available, the links, the resources,

00:01:31.020 all of that stuff for this show on our website.

00:01:33.300 And you can find that at orderofman.com slash 096.

00:01:37.080 And second, be sure you join our closed Facebook group.

00:01:39.180 We've got 17,000 men over there.

00:01:40.740 We are growing by about 1,000 members per week now,

00:01:43.420 which means that there is a ton of value being shared there.

00:01:46.500 And you can do that at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman.

00:01:49.760 And third, make sure you go check out what we're doing inside of our exclusive mastermind.

00:01:53.520 This is called The Iron Council.

00:01:54.900 It's a brotherhood of 200 plus men who want to take being a better man to the next level.

00:01:59.040 So we're sharing the tools, the resources, direction, systems,

00:02:02.080 and above all, we're sharing the accountability to help you and me

00:02:05.460 and all the other guys do just that.

00:02:07.040 So I'm going to share a little bit more during the break.

00:02:08.600 But for now, you can get the details and the information at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:02:13.740 Now, I want to get into the discussion today with my guest, David Berkus.

00:02:17.220 He's somebody I came across as I was looking for successful men to come on the show.

00:02:21.060 You're going to hear that in the podcast today that I was able to connect with someone

00:02:23.980 who is incredibly qualified to speak with us on the subject of leadership.

00:02:27.760 He's an author.

00:02:28.800 He's a podcaster.

00:02:30.160 He's also an associate professor of management at Oral Roberts University.

00:02:33.640 But he wrote a book that I really enjoyed under new management.

00:02:36.140 And he challenges the traditional vision of business management.

00:02:40.460 And he proves that they're outdated and they just don't work.

00:02:43.380 So he gets into that a little bit on the show today.

00:02:45.100 But he's also a speaker.

00:02:46.120 He's worked with Fortune 500 companies in the Naval Academy.

00:02:49.620 And he also contributes to Business Review and Inc.

00:02:52.100 Today, he's here to talk with us about management, leadership,

00:02:54.880 and how to cast your vision and make an impact.

00:02:58.740 David, what's going on, man?

00:02:59.740 Thanks for joining me on the show today again.

00:03:01.460 I am fantastic.

00:03:02.840 I'm cold.

00:03:04.040 But other than that, I'm fantastic.

00:03:05.460 I don't know what happened as we were recording this.

00:03:07.100 We had this like cold snap.

00:03:08.420 And I had no idea it was as cold outside as it is.

00:03:11.360 But it's all right.

00:03:12.080 You know, it grows toughness.

00:03:13.360 It grows manliness.

00:03:14.080 That's right.

00:03:14.560 That's what we're all about here.

00:03:15.400 So where are you located then?

00:03:17.200 I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is not supposed to be below freezing.

00:03:21.440 Well, really, any time of year, but especially right now.

00:03:24.340 Well, you're just going to have to deal with that, I guess, right?

00:03:26.360 I guess.

00:03:26.920 Yeah, I know.

00:03:27.560 Everybody that's in like Alaska and listening is like, oh, I'm playing the world's smallest violin.

00:03:31.640 Yeah.

00:03:31.920 So, you know, you know that.

00:03:33.120 But no, I'm a little further south.

00:03:34.600 I don't have to worry about that stuff.

00:03:36.160 Yeah.

00:03:36.300 Now, where are you again?

00:03:37.340 I'm in southern Utah.

00:03:38.640 Oh, yeah.

00:03:39.100 So like nobody feels sorry for you ever.

00:03:40.920 No, no, it's beautiful.

00:03:42.020 I mean, it gets a little hot in the summer.

00:03:42.920 But outside of that, we're pretty good.

00:03:44.820 Nice.

00:03:45.140 So, David, I want to talk with you about leadership.

00:03:47.360 And obviously, this is a pretty broad term.

00:03:49.500 I think there's a lot of definitions.

00:03:50.920 I think there's a lot of misconception even about what leadership is and how this actually

00:03:54.480 works.

00:03:54.840 Can you help us wrap our heads around what leadership means to you so that we can maybe

00:03:59.600 create some of the framework for the discussion that I want to have with you today?

00:04:03.040 Yeah.

00:04:03.440 So you're asking someone whose background is an academic.

00:04:06.480 Um, my doctorate was in strategic leadership.

00:04:09.280 And so, uh, my tendency is to give you an incredibly nuanced definition.

00:04:13.040 I mean, true story.

00:04:13.900 One of the people that was my, um, you know, one of my big advisors when I was in my doctoral

00:04:18.440 program once wrote a paper called an integrative definition of leadership.

00:04:21.820 Basically, he and a coauthor tried to assemble every single definition of leadership out there

00:04:26.820 and come up with one cohesive thing that would find all.

00:04:31.040 It was over 600 words long, right?

00:04:32.740 Um, so I'm very, it was, it was comprehensive.

00:04:36.340 It was integrative, not all that practical.

00:04:38.240 You know, I think probably the biggest thing that people do when they define leadership is

00:04:42.880 they take the sort of John Maxwell definition, you know, leadership is influence, nothing

00:04:46.420 more, nothing less.

00:04:47.200 And, and I think there's a whole lot more and a whole lot less to that.

00:04:50.560 But let's start with that, this idea, this ability to sort of influence or inspire people.

00:04:55.380 And then I think there's a couple of responsibilities that come with that.

00:04:58.080 I think you actually have to, um, inspire them to work toward an objective.

00:05:02.380 It's not enough just to be motivating.

00:05:04.320 You have to be motivating people to actually progress towards something that is mutually

00:05:09.240 desired.

00:05:10.060 In other words, it's not enough just to have influence.

00:05:12.220 If we have influence, but we don't actually lead people to where everybody agrees is a good

00:05:16.800 place to go, then we end up like, you know, the used car salesman that sells you a lemon

00:05:20.380 or worse.

00:05:21.720 We end up like a, a dictator that history has taught us is sort of really, really quite bad.

00:05:26.300 So there's a lot of, um, quite bad.

00:05:28.640 That's the understatement of like forever.

00:05:30.540 But so I would, I would say if I had to think of a concise, uh, short, narrow working definition,

00:05:37.260 it would be the ability to influence or inspire people to work toward a mutually desired objective.

00:05:42.820 And, you know, there's a lot I'm leaving out in there, but the important thing is I'm putting

00:05:46.800 in enough to say that not only is it influence, it's influence that comes with a moral or an

00:05:51.720 ethical responsibility to take people where they want to be.

00:05:54.760 No, this is a good point and a good distinction because I think we almost cross into that

00:05:59.120 line of influence versus manipulation.

00:06:01.280 And although maybe you can define that differently, I think manipulation falls on the negative end

00:06:07.520 of the spectrum versus influence, which is a win-win type situation.

00:06:11.760 Exactly.

00:06:12.380 I mean, with, with respect to John Maxwell, he would never actually say that leadership is

00:06:16.720 just, uh, the ability to influence.

00:06:18.400 And I don't care what you do morally with that influence, but we leave ourselves too open to

00:06:23.000 that room.

00:06:23.660 If we use a definition, like it's just influence, nothing more, nothing less.

00:06:27.660 Right.

00:06:27.860 So I think we're all, we all know that there are certain other ethical boundaries in there.

00:06:32.520 There are certain other responsibilities you take on when you become a leader.

00:06:35.840 And that's, I think that has to be in the definition almost as a reminder, right?

00:06:39.880 You would think that no one needs to be reminded, but no one needs to be, we can say no one

00:06:44.520 needs to be reminded to do a lot of ethical things and yet we still have a lot of people

00:06:48.900 who don't follow those.

00:06:49.980 So, you know, no one, the speed limit sign, no one needs to be reminded what the speed

00:06:53.860 limit is every mile and yet people still speed, right?

00:06:56.460 So those reminders are incredibly beneficial.

00:06:59.200 Well, then I think you start getting into this point of now you are, let's say somebody's

00:07:02.780 a formal leader, for example, or even an informal leader, and they have a clear objective

00:07:06.720 of what they want to accomplish and maybe they want to obey the road signs.

00:07:10.080 How do you help others articulate and see the vision that you have and then get them

00:07:15.680 on board so they actually want to go to that place as well?

00:07:18.780 Okay.

00:07:19.020 So I'll be honest with you.

00:07:20.100 I think you've got it backwards.

00:07:21.560 Okay.

00:07:21.740 I think, I think that we spend so much time talking about casting a vision and getting

00:07:26.200 buy-in and all of that sort of thing.

00:07:27.760 And I don't think that's how true, formal or informal, true leaders actually operate.

00:07:34.040 I think one of the biggest things is figuring out how, I mean, no one does anything because

00:07:39.040 it's in your best interest, right, Ryan?

00:07:41.120 Right, right, of course.

00:07:41.460 No one listens to this podcast because it would really help Ryan earn sponsorship dollars

00:07:45.960 or something like that.

00:07:46.560 No one does that.

00:07:47.660 They do it because of their interests.

00:07:49.140 And so when leaders start from that position of my job is to help people realize what's in

00:07:55.260 their best interest.

00:07:56.480 And when those things align, suddenly we're a community, suddenly we're a team pursuing an

00:08:00.560 objective.

00:08:01.100 And you see the same thing in informal leaders too.

00:08:03.560 You know, one of, one of the interesting things that's forgotten from history are all of these

00:08:07.920 instances of, of some of the best leaders were reluctant, right?

00:08:10.900 Martin Luther King Jr., for example, he got into the civil rights movement because they

00:08:16.060 needed to borrow his church to hold these rallies.

00:08:18.880 And he resisted for a really long time before he realized that his assets, his resources,

00:08:24.360 and his leadership ability was needed to right this, this wrong, right?

00:08:28.600 But he didn't want to get involved at first until he saw that so many people were relying

00:08:33.360 on things that he had that he then took responsibility for helping those people get that objective.

00:08:38.320 So, so I do, I think it doesn't start from you and what you want and how do you persuade

00:08:42.160 people to work toward what you want?

00:08:44.040 It starts from them and what do they want?

00:08:46.500 And can you align what you, what your, uh, desired objective is with what they want?

00:08:51.280 And if not, then they're not your followers.

00:08:53.620 They're not your tribe. 0.62

00:08:54.720 Keep moving until you find the one that is.

00:08:56.680 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:08:57.260 So how do you then identify what it is somebody else wants?

00:09:01.040 Is it a matter of asking or is there more to this?

00:09:03.720 You know, I think the best leaders, they don't have the, they don't ask what they do is they

00:09:07.620 find a way to sort of crystallize it, right?

00:09:09.740 Your, your Simon Sinek's of the world would say they find the why, but they find a way

00:09:13.880 to put to words what that unfelt thing is.

00:09:17.200 So a lot of it starts with just listening to the conversation, listening to the desires,

00:09:21.040 listening to the yearnings, listening to the, oh, it'd be great ifs, and then finding

00:09:25.300 a way to crystallize that into a compelling vision that unifies enough people.

00:09:30.420 But really it starts with that listening idea and seeing what the uniform threads are and

00:09:34.460 then finding a way to paint that picture.

00:09:36.820 And the, the beautiful thing is once you do that, you don't have to get buy-in because

00:09:40.000 they were already bought in.

00:09:41.160 It's their thing.

00:09:42.300 Yeah.

00:09:42.420 You've just helped them articulate what they've already been feeling and wanting in their,

00:09:46.080 their own lives.

00:09:47.160 Exactly.

00:09:47.680 And then the next step is then articulating the, okay, so we all agree that we want this.

00:09:52.400 Here's how we get it.

00:09:53.420 And here's the plan.

00:09:54.300 And then again, you don't need to get buy into that plan because you started from a place

00:09:57.620 of, I know you want to get here and I have a plan.

00:10:00.420 Let's go.

00:10:01.520 So is the planning process then, I think we might be getting a little ahead, but since

00:10:04.540 we're talking about it anyways, this planning process, how much are you including other

00:10:10.020 people who potentially could be quote unquote, your subordinates, if you're in a formal working

00:10:15.040 environment, how much do you allow them to be part of that planning process versus you

00:10:19.780 planning it out and then implementing what's that balance look like?

00:10:22.380 Yeah.

00:10:23.220 So, I mean, we'd have to kind of split this out here from when we're talking about leaders

00:10:26.420 of social movements to leaders of organizations, et cetera.

00:10:29.520 When, when it comes to formal organizations and we talk about that plan, now we're really

00:10:33.840 talking about strategy.

00:10:35.080 We're not talking about a vision or a dream or that sort of thing.

00:10:37.980 We're talking about what is the strategy from the organization.

00:10:40.740 And there are fundamentally two schools of thought in strategy.

00:10:44.380 There's sort of the planning school and the emergent school.

00:10:46.800 The planning school says, you know, you have the senior leadership team.

00:10:49.360 They know, uh, they know everything.

00:10:51.280 They have the highest up perspective.

00:10:52.760 They've got the 30,000 foot view.

00:10:54.320 Their job is to, uh, define what that plan is and then hand it down to the mid-level managers

00:11:00.520 whose job is to execute that plan.

00:11:02.180 And, and that all works great.

00:11:04.500 It works really, really well on paper.

00:11:06.800 Except of course, around the mid nineties, people then started to write all this literature

00:11:10.380 about execution and that, you know, the strategy was solid.

00:11:14.000 The execution is where we failed.

00:11:15.400 Well, no, a strategy that doesn't take into account the needs of people who are executing

00:11:20.360 it is a failed strategy.

00:11:22.040 So the others, the other school of strategy is more the emergent strategy, which is we,

00:11:26.740 we know what we, uh, what we want and we have a good inkling of how to get there, but we're

00:11:31.640 not going to formalize the plan.

00:11:33.180 What we're going to do is we're going to take like what my friend Peter Sims would call little

00:11:36.620 bets.

00:11:36.960 We're going to take a lot of different experiments as we're going to, we're going to head out

00:11:39.700 in a couple of different ways.

00:11:41.180 We're going to see what's working and then we're going to adjust.

00:11:43.660 And so a lot of companies, you see this in the tech world a lot with, with bold agile

00:11:47.680 and also with keeping a lot of products in beta for a long time.

00:11:51.640 Their strategy may not be formally defined until a year or two out when interaction with

00:11:57.420 the customers and interaction with the market has helped them kind of have that strategy

00:12:00.820 emerge out of it.

00:12:01.900 Now I tend to be from that emergent school.

00:12:04.200 I don't have a problem with the planning school, but I tend to be from that emergent school because

00:12:08.520 as the great management thinker, Mike Tyson said, everybody's got a plan until they get

00:12:13.300 punched in the face.

00:12:14.320 Of course.

00:12:14.760 And so I think the emergent school has a little bit better response, being open to being wrong,

00:12:19.440 making pivots and being consistently flexible.

00:12:21.660 That said, if you are of the planning school, then from the very beginning, soliciting opinions

00:12:27.160 and getting a good cross section of everybody involved in the organization is highly necessary.

00:12:31.380 I know that's a really long answer to say that everyone is necessary, but depending on your

00:12:36.440 personality and your persuasion, you might be planning or you might be emergent.

00:12:39.620 Everyone from all levels is involved in both.

00:12:42.880 The only difference is when they're involved in planning.

00:12:45.180 They ought to be involved from the very beginning so we can come up with a plan we execute.

00:12:49.280 And in emergent, they're obviously already involved because we're setting out lots of

00:12:52.620 little bets and then we're responding.

00:12:54.300 So we need that feedback.

00:12:55.640 So how might this differ then from a social movement?

00:12:59.300 For example, a movement like this, Order of Man, or even maybe in the family unit as well.

00:13:04.420 So I think social movements are almost always an emergent strategy format.

00:13:09.440 And one of the reasons for that is that there's not a lot of literature and not a lot of models

00:13:14.740 of planning school working.

00:13:16.520 But also the planning school has its grounding steeped in looking at a competitive environment,

00:13:22.860 trying to figure out what other competitors are going to do.

00:13:25.340 Therefore, we need to do this in order to attain market share.

00:13:27.680 We need to occupy this position in the mind of our consumers, all of those sort of things.

00:13:32.180 And I mean, the only sort of social thing I could see that really might follow that would

00:13:37.820 be something like an election, like a campaign for a senator or president or anything like

00:13:43.680 that.

00:13:44.000 That might have a little more formal planning strategy.

00:13:46.720 But most social movements, most grassroots efforts, most podcast communities, all of those

00:13:51.880 sort of things necessarily become that kind of emergent thing.

00:13:55.220 You start doing something because you're driven to do it.

00:13:57.840 Other people resonate, but they also provide feedback.

00:14:00.220 And you modify and adjust and keep going.

00:14:02.480 And I would imagine, Ryan, without knowing too much about your life and your past history,

00:14:06.640 I'd imagine this is not the only experiment you've ever had.

00:14:09.780 And I'd imagine some of them didn't work out that well, but they had lessons in them

00:14:13.740 for how to further order of man.

00:14:15.480 I mean, this podcast is a prime example.

00:14:17.080 I started a podcast previous to this that was a financial planning podcast, and I love the

00:14:21.120 medium.

00:14:21.640 I didn't like the content so much.

00:14:23.280 So we adapted and we moved.

00:14:25.060 And now we've created what you're listening to right now.

00:14:27.020 Oh, yeah, no.

00:14:28.080 And, you know, I'm the same way with growing as an author, growing kind of my audience and

00:14:32.380 the people that enjoy my work.

00:14:34.440 You know, we started as a podcast with a totally different name till we found out we were infringing

00:14:38.240 on someone's trademark.

00:14:39.560 But even in that, we experimented around with PDFs and e-books and even publishing, self-publishing

00:14:45.060 hardcover books.

00:14:45.940 And the stuff that didn't work, we just kind of let it fall by the wayside.

00:14:49.240 And the stuff that did work, we invested more of our time and energy in that.

00:14:52.140 How much of this leadership style and these two types of planning, if you will, is personality

00:14:59.120 and how much of it is just, hey, you learn this and you adapt it and you can make this

00:15:04.200 your own?

00:15:05.220 So I don't know that I have any solid data showing a personality influencing a preference

00:15:11.140 for which one you'd go at.

00:15:13.240 I think a lot of it is actually just what you were what you were raised or trained to

00:15:17.900 envision.

00:15:18.460 I think a lot of people I mean, there is like there's some personality research on a phenomenon

00:15:22.720 called conscientiousness, which essentially is like a a personality trait of how ordered

00:15:27.060 and how much like how many of your ducks you you have in a row and all those sort of things.

00:15:30.980 But I'm not aware of any research that shows a preference towards one or the other.

00:15:35.180 I think it really we learn so much from the people that came before us.

00:15:39.040 We learn to be a leader from our leaders.

00:15:40.900 And so I think a lot of it stems from that idea of just who did you train with and who did

00:15:45.260 you learn from?

00:15:45.980 You know, I was very much the planning school and not really into the emergent strategy ideas

00:15:51.360 until a thinker named Roger Martin, a professor at University of Toronto and a former consultant

00:15:56.140 and a huge mind in the business space really sort of, I guess, grabbed me by the brain and

00:16:02.180 spun me around 180 degrees and really showed me this other way.

00:16:04.940 So, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with we learn leadership from the leaders that

00:16:08.400 we have.

00:16:09.340 So when you talk about grabbed you by the brain, I like that phrase, by the way, grabbed you by

00:16:12.380 the brain, spun you around 180 degrees, was this just an awareness or did he put you into

00:16:17.340 an environment that literally caused you to think differently about the way that you approach

00:16:21.160 leadership?

00:16:22.540 So I began, you know, Roger was really a mentor from afar to me for a long time, didn't even

00:16:28.480 know it.

00:16:28.900 Right.

00:16:29.160 I was just reading his work and loving it, et cetera.

00:16:32.000 And that inspired me to kind of reach out to him.

00:16:33.940 And I wish I actually could remember, I think we met at a conference and I probably looked

00:16:39.100 like a total fanboy because I knew he was going to be at that conference and I was also

00:16:43.040 going to speak at that conference.

00:16:44.060 So I emailed him and then I brought like copies of his books and all that sort of stuff and

00:16:47.800 asked him to sign him.

00:16:48.980 So, yeah, total fanboy.

00:16:50.320 Yeah, we're all in there.

00:16:51.260 Yeah, I know.

00:16:51.980 Right.

00:16:52.120 I'm I'm still there.

00:16:53.360 Right.

00:16:53.560 Like I have a lot of a lot of author friends and, you know, people that that dramatically outsell

00:17:00.500 me that I'm still like, I love your work.

00:17:01.920 Would you sign this new copy of this book?

00:17:03.580 Blah, blah, blah.

00:17:04.280 So I'm still there.

00:17:04.960 Right.

00:17:05.260 Even though, like, I consider them colleagues now, they're just way better at it than I

00:17:09.380 am.

00:17:10.000 So and that that began a conversation and it was a lot of times it was a lot of back

00:17:13.800 and forth.

00:17:14.300 And then, you know, being invited to go watch him talk at other places and hearing what

00:17:18.100 he had to say.

00:17:18.820 And, you know, so a lot of it was after that point was him more deliberately pointing things

00:17:24.400 out or asking questions to me.

00:17:25.620 But it started with that kind of mentorship from afar.

00:17:28.180 Yeah.

00:17:28.280 I mean, the reason I ask this is because I know for a lot of the men that are listening

00:17:32.180 that are in leadership positions are really curious how to get people thinking differently

00:17:36.580 about a different subject or to change the way that maybe they've been raised to believe

00:17:41.320 over a lifetime or over decades of believing one way.

00:17:44.780 And you're now asking them to do it differently.

00:17:46.820 And I know that can be a challenge.

00:17:47.980 What do you say to that?

00:17:49.160 You know, I mean, changing people's minds is quite odd, right?

00:17:53.680 Because there's the logical and there's the emotional.

00:17:56.160 And truthfully, I think if you attack either, you trigger people's defenses.

00:18:00.720 I think your best bet is to start with the emotions.

00:18:03.960 But I think your best bet is actually to just kind of if you're trying to change people's

00:18:07.460 mind is to start with questions.

00:18:10.740 Start with, you know, why do you believe that?

00:18:12.960 And you'll eventually like there are the logical reasons.

00:18:15.620 And the more you say, why, why, why, why, why, you'll get at the emotional ones.

00:18:19.020 And then, you know, at a certain point, once you sort of have uncovered all of that, then

00:18:24.040 you can start pushing back on whether certain assumptions are true.

00:18:27.320 Like, so if I'm trying to change someone's mind, I'm, I'm usually asking them a lot of

00:18:31.760 exploratory questions and trying to figure out what their underlying assumptions are and

00:18:36.100 what the emotions behind why they feel that way are.

00:18:38.560 You know, a lot of people might have a really logical reason for believing something and then

00:18:42.400 you tear it down, not tear it down, but you, you, you investigate further and you find

00:18:46.620 that there's an emotion or an experience that's also what persuaded them to, to take on that

00:18:51.360 opinion.

00:18:51.620 And then, then you just start to, to kind of lightly challenge those assumptions.

00:18:56.020 And, you know, sometimes you might try and change someone's mind and end up proving them

00:19:00.420 right.

00:19:01.060 Right.

00:19:01.220 And then you change your own mind and that's fine.

00:19:03.520 But again, I think you do it from that standpoint.

00:19:05.280 You, you don't do what I watch far too many people do, especially, you know, we just are coming

00:19:10.620 out of an election cycle here in the U S and you find that people are just reiterating

00:19:14.300 talking points to each other that never really changed, changes people's minds.

00:19:18.640 Arguments don't change people's minds.

00:19:20.180 Questions do.

00:19:21.420 Interesting.

00:19:21.620 How do you avoid just to talk about the opposite end of the spectrum?

00:19:24.780 How do you avoid these types of questions and crossing the line of being too probing

00:19:30.200 or just flat out annoying as opposed to, I really do care about you or.

00:19:35.160 You're not going to like this answer.

00:19:36.220 It's really simple.

00:19:36.620 That's what I want to know.

00:19:37.320 Here you go.

00:19:37.900 Here you go.

00:19:38.260 Ready?

00:19:38.420 You got a pen.

00:19:39.400 You care.

00:19:40.820 And then, and then if you like people worry about this off at, Oh, I'm going to look

00:19:44.440 really authentic.

00:19:45.000 No, if you're generally interested in someone, you're not going to look authentic.

00:19:47.740 If you're not generally interested in them, then you shouldn't be doing this.

00:19:51.300 Right.

00:19:52.060 But you, if you can authentically, the only way to authentically demonstrate that you

00:19:56.300 care about someone is to care about them.

00:19:57.860 And then if you do that, you, the odds that you're going to be seen as inauthentic and uncaring

00:20:03.300 and that sort of stuff are very slim.

00:20:04.660 It won't, it will still happen.

00:20:06.200 People get misread all the time, but you know, let's make up a stat.

00:20:09.560 That 90% certainty that if you authentically care about someone and you're having a real

00:20:15.160 open and honest conversation with them, it's not going to be misinterpreted as you just

00:20:19.200 trying to be manipulative.

00:20:20.300 Now, when you're manipulative, there's no possible chance that you're going to get interpreted

00:20:24.620 as being authentic.

00:20:25.900 Sure.

00:20:26.340 People can see right through that and they understand what's going on.

00:20:29.300 Exactly.

00:20:29.880 Exactly.

00:20:30.300 We've, we've all been in that interaction where it's overly obvious.

00:20:33.380 They're just trying to sell us on something.

00:20:36.280 Men, just a quick pause to introduce you to the iron council.

00:20:39.220 This month, we're talking all about time management inside our elite mastermind.

00:20:42.880 We are covering efficiency, effectiveness, the tools, strategies, and the resources to

00:20:47.120 use your time to its maximum.

00:20:49.560 Each and every month, we cover a completely new topic to help you take your life to the

00:20:53.240 next level from communication to leadership, from time management to physical fitness.

00:20:58.040 We cover it all inside the iron council and give you all the tools, the insights, the

00:21:01.640 strategies, again, the resources to help you take your life to the next level.

00:21:05.320 So you'll have access to the other 200 plus men inside of the iron council, all on their

00:21:10.060 own journey.

00:21:10.560 And you'll have the opportunity to learn from me and from them, how you can be a better

00:21:14.440 father, husband, businessman, leader, whatever it is you're trying to improve in your life.

00:21:18.700 If you're interested in learning what we're all about, head to order of man.com slash iron

00:21:22.300 council, where you can get our schedule, what's included in the membership, and then reach

00:21:25.900 out with any questions you may have.

00:21:27.380 We hope to see you inside the iron council.

00:21:29.100 But for now, let me get back to my interview with David.

00:21:31.320 So now we're talking about communication in the way that we obviously care about people

00:21:36.620 in the way that now we're communicating with them.

00:21:38.560 What are some communication pointers or tips or ideas that you have with regards to being

00:21:43.940 a leader and helping others get to that vision, whatever that win-win situation you guys have

00:21:48.000 decided is?

00:21:49.300 You know, I think so much of the work of leadership as opposed to management is concerned with

00:21:54.160 understanding the emotions and the motivations behind people.

00:21:57.580 And so I think you listen for that and you ask questions based on that.

00:22:00.780 So, you know, if I just if I asked you about like, Ryan, what's your what's a hobby you

00:22:05.180 do outside of sort of work and family that you're really engaged in?

00:22:08.860 For me, it's woodworking.

00:22:10.080 I'll be out in my shop.

00:22:11.400 You'll be out in your shop.

00:22:12.340 And when you say, I mean, big projects, little projects.

00:22:14.620 Tell me a bit about what you work on.

00:22:16.700 Mostly just restoring furniture, small projects.

00:22:20.040 I built the bunk beds for my boys, for example.

00:22:22.520 Oh, that's got to be really cool.

00:22:23.600 I, you know, I've got a friend that does sort of restorations and really, really enjoys

00:22:28.180 kind of taking older antique pieces, pieces people have sort of discarded and bringing

00:22:33.180 them back to life and having sort of that new life.

00:22:35.720 Is that a bit what you're talking about?

00:22:37.020 Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:37.740 I love it.

00:22:38.720 Oh, that's really, really cool.

00:22:39.960 So you see, I mean, I literally I asked you to.

00:22:42.500 So I asked a couple of questions and then I tried to relate it to something that I already

00:22:46.500 knew or experienced.

00:22:47.380 I have now, I am awful with tools and woodworking, my my the best tool I have is my phone, right?

00:22:55.020 To call someone who knows what they're doing.

00:22:56.560 But I reached out to try and find something similar.

00:22:58.820 So I'm asking you questions and I'm trying to get at motivations and emotions, right?

00:23:03.160 And trying to figure out, you know, there's a there's a couple different possible motivations

00:23:06.500 for woodworking, right?

00:23:08.100 And I'm trying to get at what the one is.

00:23:09.820 So now if I'm trying you if I'm trying to persuade you to kind of, you know, do anything,

00:23:13.640 I'm going to probably frame it inside of that.

00:23:17.240 You know, this is another opportunity, just like you do with with woodworking and with

00:23:20.960 restoration to take an idea that really hasn't been fully developed and really get it to scale

00:23:25.900 and bring it out in the community.

00:23:27.020 So I'm going to use very similar language now that I understand your emotions and your

00:23:31.800 motivations.

00:23:32.800 I'm going to use similar language to try and show you how something might be in your best

00:23:36.840 interest.

00:23:37.220 But again, it starts from caring, right?

00:23:39.440 If I really, truly believe that this actually is in your best interest, then I'm going to

00:23:43.620 be seen as authentic.

00:23:44.700 If I don't, then I'm going to just be seen as, well, he's just trying to use stuff he

00:23:48.920 knows about me to manipulate me.

00:23:50.360 And there's a good reason I'll come off looking that way because I am because that is what

00:23:53.620 you're trying to do.

00:23:54.460 Exactly.

00:23:55.200 Exactly.

00:23:55.620 But but so the way that you ask questions, you ask questions around why people do things,

00:23:59.780 what the motivations are.

00:24:01.440 If you think you've got it, I like to often check in and try and find some common ground.

00:24:05.580 In my case, I had to reach to another buddy of mine that restores stuff.

00:24:08.700 But again, trying to find that common ground.

00:24:10.820 And that gives me some insights.

00:24:11.800 I mean, you could have also said, no, that's totally not it.

00:24:14.200 I like to cut the tree down and bring something out of nothing.

00:24:16.720 And I learned something different about you, right?

00:24:18.440 So it's all about that kind of idea of I'm looking for as I'm asking you questions, I'm

00:24:23.460 asking you questions to get at your emotions and your motivation, not to get at, you know,

00:24:28.100 just the the bland reason that you I like woodworking because it occupies my hands and my

00:24:33.060 brain.

00:24:33.320 And so I don't have to think about, you know, other things or something like that.

00:24:36.340 Right.

00:24:36.560 Sure.

00:24:37.260 No, this is fascinating because I think a lot of I think a lot of men maybe understand

00:24:41.400 this to a degree and start asking these questions and engaging a conversation.

00:24:45.180 And then it's like, where do you go from there?

00:24:47.180 And you have this awkward like, OK, good.

00:24:49.420 You're a woodworker.

00:24:50.280 Now, what do I do with that information?

00:24:51.740 So I'm glad you filled in the gap because I think that is critical.

00:24:54.600 And we have to have vision as leaders.

00:24:55.900 So, you know, and I think, you know, so much of the way men tend to interact.

00:25:01.680 Right.

00:25:01.960 So one of my one of my pastors, who's also a marriage and family counselor, will use this

00:25:06.180 analogy all the time that like women, women relate face to face and men relate side by

00:25:12.020 side.

00:25:12.460 In other words, women, you know, women can have that conversation, that deep emotional 0.54

00:25:15.680 conversation, et cetera.

00:25:16.720 It's something that I have no idea, nature, nurture, any of that.

00:25:20.580 I can't explain it.

00:25:21.800 But for some reason, you know, it's a gross stereotype as well and overgeneralization.

00:25:25.720 So there are always exceptions.

00:25:26.880 But in general, there's something that trains them to kind of be able to have those conversations,

00:25:31.060 whereas men tend to bond side by side doing things.

00:25:34.360 You know, it's one of the reasons you have like the Boy Scouts, for example, where we

00:25:37.120 take a bunch of of boys trying to become men and give them a bunch of different activities

00:25:41.200 that they can share.

00:25:42.020 Or one of the reasons sports are so important to kind of the male culture is not actually

00:25:44.980 about the sport.

00:25:45.920 I mean, you're almost all of them are the same.

00:25:47.900 You're running a ball around a field.

00:25:49.440 There's a couple of rules that change, but that's pretty much it.

00:25:52.220 Right.

00:25:52.620 But it's the idea that we're using the shared activity as a means to bond side by side.

00:25:56.880 The challenge in that in that bonding side by side is that when you're playing a sport,

00:26:01.300 for example, or when you're out camping or doing those sort of activities, those activities

00:26:05.960 usually replace conversation.

00:26:07.600 So we often fall out of practice in having these conversations about emotions and motivations

00:26:12.480 as well.

00:26:13.500 Yeah, no, I can see how that'd be the case.

00:26:14.840 Now you're talking about bonding and forging bonds with other men.

00:26:17.980 I'm really curious about how close a leader should get to somebody that he may be leading.

00:26:22.300 Is there is there a line?

00:26:23.520 What does that line look like?

00:26:24.600 Because there's the old school theory that, and maybe this is still a theory, that you

00:26:28.040 should have a lot of distance between you and the people you're leading.

00:26:31.020 And then there's the idea that you should be very close and know and have an intimate

00:26:34.160 relationship with those people.

00:26:36.400 Yeah.

00:26:36.700 I mean, so there's the, you know, I was speaking at the Naval Academy one time.

00:26:40.100 I got to dine at the officer's club, which is this room and this, you know, area where

00:26:44.600 you're just no one enlisted is allowed, right?

00:26:47.300 Officers don't socialize, et cetera, et cetera.

00:26:49.960 I can understand certain reasons for that in certain fields.

00:26:54.060 I think in general, most of us have a much more, we're all one team and I might be the

00:26:58.900 team leader, but that only gets me a, a, a tiny degree more, um, status or power than

00:27:05.240 everybody else.

00:27:05.780 I think that, um, and leading from the middle of the pack tends to be where, especially

00:27:10.620 in business and in hobbies and in life, et cetera, that tends to be, um, the better

00:27:15.280 approach.

00:27:15.960 Now, like I said, there are other situations, you know, the, one of the reasons the military

00:27:19.540 is so strict on that is that when, when your life is on the line and you need to get information

00:27:24.160 quickly, hierarchies become great systems for giving orders and conveying information

00:27:28.700 back up.

00:27:29.560 But when kind of you're in a business setting and the stakes are a lot lower and also you

00:27:34.100 kind of have the benefit of time to analyze certain things, I think you can have a much

00:27:38.420 more congenial relationship and a much more sort of team focused and leading from the middle

00:27:43.600 of the pack.

00:27:44.060 And a part of that is me talking about my own personal preference too.

00:27:47.540 You know, I deliberately eschew most kind of power scenarios.

00:27:51.160 Um, I might still have influence in a lot of the organizations that I'm a part of, but

00:27:54.260 I'd much rather have the autonomy that comes with not having a formal title.

00:27:57.620 So that might also be my own personal preferences.

00:27:59.340 I'll admit.

00:28:00.220 Yeah, no, I like that.

00:28:01.280 And I tend to agree with you, which is part of the reason that we have this order, right?

00:28:04.620 The society, it's an organization.

00:28:06.000 It's not just any one man who, who has it all figured out and who's directing everybody

00:28:09.900 else.

00:28:10.240 We do this collectively.

00:28:11.000 So I can attest to what you're saying.

00:28:13.020 That makes a lot of sense.

00:28:13.920 You talk about titles.

00:28:15.100 I mean, that's the last thing you said.

00:28:16.980 Why is it that we chase titles so much as opposed to just being natural leaders?

00:28:21.840 Because I think a lot of people think that they can only be a leader when they have a

00:28:25.000 title.

00:28:26.220 Yeah, I honestly have no idea.

00:28:28.440 Um, I mean, as to why I definitely agree that it's, it's something in there and then

00:28:32.260 it might be, you know, go back to like, it might be more primal.

00:28:34.880 If you look at most, um, primate species, et cetera, there are, um, there's pecking orders

00:28:39.900 and hierarchies and that kind of stuff.

00:28:41.660 The, the interesting thing is I think one of the challenges is as, as Jeffrey Pfeffer,

00:28:47.260 a brilliant, um, psychologist based out of Stanford would say, you can have power or

00:28:51.680 you can have autonomy, but you can't have them both.

00:28:54.360 In other words, as soon as you sort of attain power, there, there comes a responsibility

00:28:58.540 to be accountable to those that you have power over.

00:29:01.380 There comes a responsibility to take care of them, protect them and also interact with

00:29:05.860 them.

00:29:06.060 So they have a little bit more control over your schedule.

00:29:08.240 You know, most, most days I'm, uh, interacting in a university setting and I'm not a chair or

00:29:14.080 a dean or the president, et cetera.

00:29:15.300 But I watch how those people's schedules are just dominated by legitimate requests by the

00:29:21.080 followers.

00:29:21.580 I'm kind of like, I don't, I don't know that I want that.

00:29:23.740 I would rather have my autonomy.

00:29:25.260 So, so I think it goes back to something that's kind of just encoded in who we are as a, as

00:29:31.160 homo sapiens.

00:29:31.960 But that said, I, I think sometimes the intelligent choice is to choose to influence and lead without

00:29:37.700 a title and understand that you're not going to have as much say and as much authority as

00:29:43.020 those people who do, but you're going to have a whole lot more autonomy and you can use that

00:29:46.760 autonomy to do great work.

00:29:48.940 So this leads me to wonder and even question, because I think a lot of times men will chase

00:29:53.720 those titles because of the increased income opportunities.

00:29:57.620 Are you seeing still, and I know this has been the case in the past, but is there still

00:30:02.080 a continued correlation between your official title and your level of income?

00:30:06.740 I mean, there, there usually is.

00:30:08.840 I, you know, my, my last book under new management, I looked at a lot of different, you know, kind

00:30:12.860 of counterintuitive, crazy company practices.

00:30:14.840 And this one didn't make the cut, but one of the things I'm grateful for is over the

00:30:18.460 last 10 or 15 years, there's really been a trend in organizations to create ways for

00:30:25.180 people to demonstrate progress and increase in, in pay levels as they get better in a skill

00:30:29.740 without climbing the hierarchy.

00:30:31.560 Right.

00:30:31.860 So, you know, one of the tragedies in a lot of sales organizations is you'll see like,

00:30:35.520 oh, this person was a great salesperson.

00:30:36.940 And then we be, we promoted them and we gained a crappy manager and we lost a great salesperson.

00:30:42.080 Well, now there's a lot of organizations that are saying, okay, well, we'll continue at the

00:30:46.540 longer you stay with us and the more you have success with us, we'll continue to increase

00:30:49.340 your pay.

00:30:49.840 You'll get benefits similar to a manager, all of those sorts of things in order to reward

00:30:54.140 those people who don't want that, that power.

00:30:56.220 So we're seeing that trend, but yeah, I mean, you're definitely right.

00:30:59.280 If you want stock options and million dollar paydays, then you got to try and be the CEO.

00:31:04.320 That said, there's a whole bunch of research that supports the idea that all of that money

00:31:09.400 doesn't make you any happier.

00:31:10.980 You know, money, money does buy happiness, but it tends to level off somewhere between

00:31:14.620 70 and $80,000 US, $2016.

00:31:18.160 And after that, it doesn't really buy any more happiness.

00:31:20.680 So trading, uh, the, the time, the loss of your own calendar, the, the responsibilities,

00:31:27.740 all of those sorts of things for that extra money.

00:31:30.480 I'm not sure that's a worthwhile trade-off unless you really do believe that the organization

00:31:35.060 or the movement needs you in that leadership role.

00:31:37.860 You know, that's, and that's the thing, you know, I often say this about presidential

00:31:40.760 candidates and, uh, senators and congressional people, et cetera.

00:31:44.400 It's like, I want the guy or girl who doesn't want the job, but really feels like we need 0.95

00:31:49.500 them right now and we need their skillset.

00:31:51.400 I'm always looking for that person.

00:31:52.560 I very rarely find that person, but I'm always looking for that person because that's who

00:31:56.660 I want to support.

00:31:57.500 Yeah.

00:31:57.620 It doesn't, doesn't necessarily want the job or doesn't even need the job, which I think

00:32:01.760 eliminates a lot of the conflict of interest that, uh, that inherently comes with the,

00:32:05.280 the position.

00:32:06.320 Exactly.

00:32:06.900 Exactly.

00:32:07.440 Yeah.

00:32:07.580 So I, I, I want to talk with you about the differences between management, the term and

00:32:12.460 the word management and leadership.

00:32:14.120 Are those synonymous or are those completely different things?

00:32:17.560 So there is a distinction in my mind.

00:32:19.960 It's a distinction without much practical difference, right?

00:32:22.920 So in general, when we talk about managers, we're talking about, um, managing behavior.

00:32:27.640 We're talking about trying to get certain outcomes.

00:32:29.760 We're talking about, uh, controlling certain resources and allocating them appropriately, all

00:32:34.420 of those sorts of things.

00:32:35.240 And when we're talking about leaders, we're talking about inspiring and influencing people

00:32:38.900 to work towards something.

00:32:39.920 So we're talking about much more emotion and motivation like we've been talking about before.

00:32:44.000 That said, I don't know many people who are amazing managers who don't also have some

00:32:50.160 level of leadership ability.

00:32:51.300 And I don't know very many, um, amazing historical leaders who didn't either also have great management

00:32:57.160 skills or knew that their second in command needed to have those skills.

00:33:00.520 So in terms of leading a movement or leading a big organization, you need both skills, uh,

00:33:06.620 when you need them is kind of up to you and your positions, your hierarchies, et cetera.

00:33:09.940 But in general, I mean, I think we, we've spent a lot of time pushing back against the idea

00:33:15.020 of management and saying that leadership is better.

00:33:16.940 The truth is we ought to be practicing and learning both.

00:33:20.920 Interesting.

00:33:21.400 How do you, how do you propose that somebody practice the skills to be better managers and

00:33:26.360 leaders?

00:33:26.680 So, I mean, in terms of leaders, it's this, again, it goes back to this emotion, this caring,

00:33:32.660 this, um, ability to kind of start to understand what's behind other people and then see if

00:33:37.280 you can speak to their motivations and emotions.

00:33:39.720 Um, and that's, I mean, that's really something you can practice anywhere.

00:33:42.240 You can practice it, you know, in, in small groups and hobbies inside an organization,

00:33:47.180 et cetera, management.

00:33:48.540 It really, honestly, you have to have some level of responsibility for something to practice.

00:33:53.200 I mean, yeah, you can manage your own time and your own resources and that's good

00:33:56.240 practice, but when it's other people who you're sort of in charge of making sure budgets flow

00:34:01.800 to, et cetera, that's, um, that's a little bit bigger, bigger deal.

00:34:05.200 So if you're not in that management role yet, is there a nonprofit you can volunteer for?

00:34:10.540 Is there a small scale project you can decide to run point on in your organization?

00:34:14.800 Just a small way to begin to get that feeling that comes with responsibility and that need

00:34:19.740 to learn these different, these different things with planning and budgeting and all of those

00:34:23.720 sort of stuff.

00:34:24.280 Those are, those are really hard skills to practice outside of organizations.

00:34:28.500 Fortunately, there are usually smaller scale projects or smaller scale organizations that

00:34:33.640 would love to have you volunteer for that.

00:34:35.280 Yeah.

00:34:35.520 Okay, good.

00:34:36.200 Yeah.

00:34:36.380 I like that.

00:34:36.740 That makes sense.

00:34:37.560 I mean, obviously you're well-versed in this stuff.

00:34:39.140 How did you even get involved in discussion and research of leadership?

00:34:45.440 Oh, it's so accidental.

00:34:46.980 Um, so, I mean, I, and I would say I come from this weird background where I, I liken my

00:34:52.740 role in this entire field to that of much more of a coach, right?

00:34:56.780 So, uh, I'm an OU football fan, right?

00:34:59.180 And so Bob Stoops, I probably don't want him behind the huddle.

00:35:02.100 I don't want him throwing the ball.

00:35:03.240 I want Baker Mayfield there.

00:35:04.440 So he might be the leader.

00:35:06.120 However, Stoops is responsible for seeing the entire field, relying on experiences acquired

00:35:11.460 from years of different, um, observations and providing counsel and guidance.

00:35:15.760 And that's, that's a bit more where I come in from that.

00:35:18.440 I come in that from two sides.

00:35:19.760 Uh, the first is the academic.

00:35:21.320 I mean, I trained, um, as an organizational psychologist that involves doing experiments

00:35:25.980 and working with lots of different, um, organizations to, to make lots of different observations about

00:35:30.440 this.

00:35:31.020 But really one of the biggest things that I observed, even in my undergraduate years, I

00:35:35.740 came to college as an English major and I thought I was going to write like novels and

00:35:40.460 all of those sorts of things.

00:35:41.300 And what, what happened was I fell in love with authors like your Daniel Pink.

00:35:45.740 And Malcolm Gladwell and Chip and Dan Heath and these people who could find a way to tell

00:35:50.860 social science research like a story because humans are kind of hardwired to understand

00:35:56.380 things better when they're in stories.

00:35:58.320 Um, they found a way to sort of say that and it became a very useful resource to the leaders

00:36:02.420 who were on the field.

00:36:03.320 Right.

00:36:03.660 And so that became the, wow, I want to do that.

00:36:05.500 I studied storytelling as an undergraduate, you know, English and creative writing major.

00:36:09.140 So I just now need to go understand the science.

00:36:11.780 And that led to the graduate school endeavors.

00:36:13.980 Again, the goal was, was not to be that person that was, Oh, I was the CEO of Coca-Cola for

00:36:19.440 10 years.

00:36:19.920 And so now you should listen to me.

00:36:21.420 It was much more, Hey, I think there's a bunch of ideas that are coming out of the world

00:36:25.740 of social science research that if we can find a way to put a solid handles on people

00:36:30.300 would be able to use them as tools much better.

00:36:32.340 So if I understand correctly, you, you look at your position, what you do as the ability

00:36:37.080 to bridge the gap between the knowledge and the science and, and all of that, and then

00:36:41.860 actually make this practical.

00:36:43.260 Am I understanding that correctly?

00:36:44.860 Exactly.

00:36:45.380 Exactly.

00:36:45.840 My, my, uh, podcast is called radio free leader and that's a callback.

00:36:49.600 It's a pun because podcasts don't air on the radio.

00:36:52.620 So they're by nature radio free, but also it's a callback to radio free Europe.

00:36:56.960 And the idea that, uh, we needed a broadcast free, accurate news coverage over the iron

00:37:02.780 curtain, you know, into, into the communist areas so that people could be liberated, uh,

00:37:08.080 at least in their minds, even if we couldn't liberate them physically for a little while.

00:37:11.500 And so same idea, radio free leader.

00:37:13.220 I'm trying to, to broadcast ideas from the ivory tower into the corner office in the hopes

00:37:18.260 that they can be of use to people who were, who were on that field, making those decisions.

00:37:22.060 Yeah.

00:37:22.520 Well, David, as we wind down, I do want to, obviously we've talked a lot about what leaders

00:37:26.300 are, what they do, how they behave, how they respond.

00:37:28.880 What are some things that we need to maybe consider avoiding or just be aware of as we

00:37:32.960 go into leadership type positions?

00:37:35.340 So like we were, we've kind of, uh, I wouldn't say hinted at, but actually beat over the head

00:37:39.320 with often is this idea that, I mean, the first thing is honestly to care.

00:37:43.600 You will, the, yes, there are, there's money and there's titles and there's all sorts of

00:37:48.140 fun things that come in perks when you climb up the hierarchy, but you will burn out unless

00:37:52.660 you legitimately care about the movement or the organization that you're trying to further.

00:37:57.380 The other thing is you won't be seen as authentic unless you legitimately care.

00:38:01.140 So it starts with that.

00:38:02.060 Really check your own motivations for wanting to engage in this leadership journey, because

00:38:06.380 if you don't deeply care about it, you're not going to have enough to sustain you when

00:38:09.980 things get hard.

00:38:11.400 Yeah.

00:38:11.520 I can see how that would be probably the foundation for leadership and everything else that you're

00:38:15.640 going to do regardless of the position or where you find yourself.

00:38:19.260 Right.

00:38:20.100 Exactly.

00:38:20.680 Exactly.

00:38:21.220 Yeah.

00:38:21.500 Well, good.

00:38:22.040 We are winding down on time.

00:38:23.500 I do want to ask you a couple of additional questions.

00:38:25.600 The first one is what does it mean to be a man?

00:38:29.820 You know, I think what it means to be a man is probably the same thing that it means to

00:38:33.580 begin your leadership journey, which is that you take on a realization that you're accountable

00:38:39.420 and responsible for others.

00:38:40.820 Right.

00:38:41.120 So I don't really know that I was 18 with no responsibility.

00:38:45.700 I was 21 with no responsibility.

00:38:47.680 I got married and yeah, I had responsibility to a staff, but like, I don't really think

00:38:51.600 that my right of passage into manhood, I don't think it happened until my wife and I

00:38:55.940 gave birth to our first son and, and look down and realize like, wow, we're responsible

00:38:59.900 for something greater than ourselves now.

00:39:02.620 And I, you know, I think that's also when you become a leader is when you recognize that

00:39:05.600 you have a responsibility to the people around you and they're counting on you for something.

00:39:09.020 But I definitely think it applies to man, manly to student manhood versus boyhood is

00:39:13.460 when you realize that you are responsible for much more than just yourself.

00:39:17.880 Yeah.

00:39:18.080 I love it.

00:39:18.600 And obviously something we talk a lot about responsibility and accountability.

00:39:21.340 So right in line with what I believe too.

00:39:23.420 So like you needed to be affirmed anyways, right?

00:39:27.300 It's, it's always encouraging to be affirmed.

00:39:29.140 Thank you.

00:39:29.580 Good, good.

00:39:30.240 Well, Hey, I know you've got a lot going on.

00:39:31.700 I know you've got some things come up.

00:39:32.900 I want to give you an opportunity to tell us about how we connect with you, how we know

00:39:36.400 a little bit more about the work that you're doing.

00:39:38.120 And then you've got a summit coming up that you wanted to mention as well.

00:39:40.320 So tell us how we learn more about this stuff.

00:39:43.000 Yeah, totally.

00:39:43.600 So the, I mean, the short version is if you have enjoyed the last, you know, 30 minutes

00:39:47.800 or so of us talking, uh, I have a podcast too called radio free leader.

00:39:51.120 So you're probably listening on your phone.

00:39:52.680 Just search for that or search for my name and you'll find it.

00:39:55.080 Of course, if you hated the last 30 minutes, then please don't, don't search that out.

00:39:59.220 And we'll have somebody next week.

00:40:00.800 So just don't worry about this show.

00:40:02.400 Ah, yeah, exactly.

00:40:03.320 Exactly.

00:40:03.780 So, so, um, so there's that on the web.

00:40:06.300 It's davidberkus.com, B-U-R-K-U-S.

00:40:08.420 And, you know, the biggest thing is we're planning in, in February, we are launching

00:40:11.940 this thing called the work smarter summit.

00:40:13.620 It's about a week's worth of content.

00:40:15.560 We're kind of, rather than dripping out a podcast over a year, I'm driving myself wild by interviewing

00:40:20.740 all of these people all at once.

00:40:22.640 Um, and we're just kind of going to have a week dedicated to how do you work smarter,

00:40:26.820 not harder?

00:40:27.240 How do you lead smarter?

00:40:28.340 How do you work better on a team?

00:40:29.500 All of those sorts of things with some really, really cool guests that I was, I was so blessed

00:40:33.220 that they said yes.

00:40:34.020 And so we're putting all that together and launching that in February.

00:40:36.780 So you want to check that out as well, worksmartersummit.com.

00:40:39.620 And I'm sure Ryan on an order, man, I'll have links to it, et cetera.

00:40:42.540 And the show notes, I'm not to steal your next line.

00:40:45.300 Yeah.

00:40:45.420 Now, what do I say?

00:40:47.200 Um, good night, everyone.

00:40:48.440 Yeah, that'll work.

00:40:49.280 All right, David.

00:40:49.900 Hey, man, I appreciate you.

00:40:50.960 I appreciate you coming on.

00:40:51.840 I know leadership is, is critical in a lot of guys' lives.

00:40:54.480 And I know that there's going to be more men listening to this that I hope are going

00:40:57.260 to be better leaders because of the conversation we've had.

00:40:59.760 I appreciate your time.

00:41:00.740 Appreciate your wisdom.

00:41:01.380 Thanks for coming on the show today, man.

00:41:03.080 Oh, thank you so much for having me.

00:41:04.520 There it is, man.

00:41:06.680 David Burke is sharing some insights with us with regards to being a better leader.

00:41:10.420 If you're interested in learning more about his work and even the summit that he mentioned,

00:41:13.600 head to orderaman.com slash 096.

00:41:15.960 We're going to have all the notes and all the links that you need.

00:41:18.700 And while you're there, make sure you learn how you can connect with the men who want to

00:41:21.800 succeed and also want you to succeed.

00:41:23.680 This is available inside of a mastermind group, the Iron Council.

00:41:27.360 Again, you're going to get all the tools, the resources, the skills, the accountability.

00:41:30.860 You need to be as effective as you can with your time.

00:41:32.940 That is the topic of the month.

00:41:34.620 You can learn more and join us at orderaman.com slash Iron Council.

00:41:38.160 I'll look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes.

00:41:40.900 But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.

00:41:44.520 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:41:47.460 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

00:41:51.520 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

00:41:54.600 Thank you.

00:41:55.560 Thank you.

00:41:55.600 Thank you.

00:41:56.140 Thank you.

00:41:57.520 Thank you.

00:41:58.100 Thank you.

00:41:58.940 Thank you.

00:41:59.760 Thank you.

00:42:01.900 Thank you.

00:42:02.480 Thank you.

00:42:03.440 很有侍 in the腹.

00:42:04.700 Thank you.

00:42:05.900 Thank you.

00:42:06.760 Thank you.

00:42:07.320 Thank you.

00:42:17.880 Thank you.

Order of Man - January 17, 2017

096： Leadership： Vision, Influence, & Impact ｜ David Burkus

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Order of Man - January 17, 2017

096： Leadership： Vision, Influence, &#x26; Impact ｜ David Burkus

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

096： Leadership： Vision, Influence, & Impact ｜ David Burkus