Order of Man - 098： Trial by Fire ｜ John Spera

00:00:00.000 Stress is something all of us as men deal with on a daily basis, and unless you and I can find a way

00:00:04.480 to manage that stress effectively, we just will not be able to show up in the way that others are

00:00:09.280 relying upon us to show up. Firefighter John Spira with Fit to Fight Fire joins me to talk about what

00:00:13.940 it takes to handle ourselves in stressful situations, how to get better at adapting,

00:00:18.640 something that he calls belief filtering, and how to build up emotional, mental, and physical resiliency.

00:00:24.660 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge

00:00:29.700 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:35.560 easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who

00:00:43.280 you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:49.840 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and founder of Order

00:00:53.460 of Man. I don't care how long you've been listening to this show, I want to welcome you to what I would

00:00:58.000 consider to be the manliest podcast available. Now, I know that I'm a bit biased, but I can tell

00:01:02.620 you that we are growing so much over the past several months. In fact, this month, we're going

00:01:07.280 to have a 30 plus percent increase in listeners from men all over the planet who are tuning into

00:01:12.320 the podcast that you're tuning into right now. Now, I tell you this for two reasons. First,

00:01:17.420 I need to make sure I give credit where credit is due. I want to thank you. I want to thank you if

00:01:21.440 you've been listening for any amount of time, and also the support, the emails, the iTunes reviews

00:01:26.140 that you've left. We could not make this happen without you. And second, I tell you this so you

00:01:31.760 can take heart knowing that the message we're sharing about how to be a better man is really

00:01:36.160 resonating with men across the globe. So again, I want to thank you for tuning in every single week.

00:01:41.920 Now, before I get too much into this discussion today, I want to give you a couple of quick

00:01:46.540 resources. And the first is the show notes. I make show notes available and the links available

00:01:50.760 every single week. And then it can be found at order of man.com slash zero nine eight. And second,

00:01:56.100 if you've not already done this, I know there's a lot of you who have, and there's some of you who

00:01:59.860 have not join our closed Facebook group. We've got just under 19,000 men in that group now who are

00:02:05.960 having thousands of real conversations about what it means to be a man. And third, and this is a little

00:02:11.760 different today. We've got our second live event, the uprising it's coming up. It's April 27th

00:02:16.780 through the 30th of this year, 2017. And I want you to be among the first to know about it.

00:02:21.780 I'm going to give you some more details about the uprising during the break, but for now know that

00:02:25.800 you can get the details and watch some of the incredible footage from last year's event at

00:02:30.000 order of man.com slash uprising spots are filling up quick. I think we've got eight or nine spots

00:02:35.060 available. So make sure you jump on it as quickly as you can. And again, you can do that at

00:02:38.960 order of man.com slash uprising. Now I want to introduce you to my guest today. I'm so honored to be

00:02:43.860 interviewing my friend and someone I've followed for a long time firefighter, John Spira.

00:02:48.220 As I said, he's somebody I've been following for some time now, and I've been blown away by his

00:02:52.720 work ethic and his ability to lead others, especially in stressful situations. I know we

00:02:58.360 have a lot of men here who listen to this show who are firefighters, military members,

00:03:03.320 and other first responders. I've got to say that I respect you and anyone who steps into the line of

00:03:08.640 fire, literally in the case of my guest today, he's a firefighter and a paramedic in Aurora,

00:03:12.880 Colorado. And his team was actually tasked with responding to the Aurora, Colorado theater

00:03:17.280 shooting in 2012, I believe it was, but he's going to talk with us a bit about that experience

00:03:22.040 and the drive that he has to be the best he can be, which you'll hear in his voice when he talks

00:03:26.080 about and says the level of our training will make the difference between life and death for others.

00:03:32.660 John, what's going on, brother? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:03:35.160 Hey, Ryan, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

00:03:37.260 Yeah. You know, we've been connected for a couple of years, I think since we started order of man,

00:03:41.160 and I've been following the work that you're doing with Fit to Fight Fire. And I got to say,

00:03:45.320 I'm pretty excited about having you on the show and talking about some real world application.

00:03:50.180 I think that's going to be the most valuable part of this discussion today.

00:03:53.160 I'm looking forward to sharing some of my experiences and some of the things that

00:03:56.740 we're doing in the fire service. So yeah, let's get it done.

00:04:00.680 Yeah. And I know there's a lot, obviously, within the fire department of fire service that

00:04:03.920 you're doing that is going to be applicable, not only to the first responders that are listening,

00:04:07.040 but anybody who's listening. And one of the things that I really like what you talk about

00:04:11.300 is how to make better decisions, especially under stress. Can you maybe talk with us a little bit

00:04:17.080 about just the premise of why this type of work and conversation is so important for you?

00:04:22.560 Yeah, it's really important because as a first responder, you know, we're going to be

00:04:26.560 under stress on the fire ground and EMS call. A lot of times that stress is caused by uncertainty

00:04:34.120 and maybe a little bit of fear. And the body's response to that is to narrow the peripheral,

00:04:42.440 diminish the hearing. Sometimes it kind of feels like you're in a tunnel. So it will compromise

00:04:47.900 our ability to make good decisions if we're not prepared for that. So one of the things we look at is

00:04:53.140 it's really hard for me as a instructor to get another firefighter to believe they're going to die

00:05:00.940 safely or believe that their life's in danger or whatever it may be safely. But what we can do

00:05:07.120 is we can replicate that stress by introducing physical exercise. Now it's working on a different

00:05:14.340 mechanism, but you still get the elevation of the heart rate, the respiratory rate. You will somewhat

00:05:21.100 feel like you're in a tunnel if you work yourself hard enough and then start introducing skills and

00:05:26.920 scenario based decision making when you're elevated, when you have that increased heart rate,

00:05:31.640 respiratory rate. And we believe, and I've experienced this personally, I can share an

00:05:35.520 experience with you on a call that I had where 14 years of that training prepared me for the biggest

00:05:41.960 call of my life. Yeah. So it was the Aurora theater shooting. And right here in the city of Aurora,

00:05:49.620 where I worked for the fire department, we had a active shooter come into the theater and shoot 70

00:05:55.400 people. So we happened to be first on scene of that incident. And I was one of the first

00:06:00.460 firefighter paramedics on the incident. And up until that point, I had trained myself in different

00:06:07.200 environments where even if it was just a crew based workout, we knew we're going to work out in the

00:06:11.720 morning. We talked prior to the next shift and we'd say, Hey, I want you to bring five questions in

00:06:16.660 on a note card that I don't know about. No one knows about all of our questions should be somewhat

00:06:22.240 different. And in the middle of the workout, start asking these questions. And it could be

00:06:26.060 something as simple as the signs of flashover, which is a condition on the fire ground that we're

00:06:30.320 concerned with, or the pediatric dose of a certain medication. So in the middle of this workout,

00:06:35.240 where you're pushing yourself, you're suffering, you're being asked questions that are pretty

00:06:39.680 important. So here I am on this call. And we're faced with hundreds of people running from the theater

00:06:45.360 covered in blood. And a lot of the things I had trained on, I was a SWAT medic on two different

00:06:51.000 fire departments. So I had 20 active shooter trainings prior to that night, probably 19 more

00:06:55.760 than most firefighters. But a lot of the things I trained on the check the box type of training that

00:07:00.940 we sometimes do, I couldn't utilize because the environment was so dynamic and nothing was textbook

00:07:08.160 that I really did have to think on my feet. We didn't have the ambulances we needed to transport

00:07:13.740 the patients that we had. So we had to adapt and overcome. We had to utilize police cars totally

00:07:19.020 outside of protocol. But that was something that we had to do because at the end of the day,

00:07:23.400 they needed a surgeon. So that training and a belief system of that training and applying that

00:07:28.640 type of training over the years really was what I fell back on that night at that call.

00:07:35.680 Yeah. I mean, that can be difficult. And obviously you can't replicate this stuff. You talk about

00:07:39.140 simulating as best you can. How does somebody who's not only a first responder, but even just a civilian

00:07:45.080 simulating or even know what they should be simulating in order to prepare for the unknown

00:07:51.400 and the uncertainty we might face? Yeah. So let's just take, let's say you're a husband and a father

00:07:56.820 and you want to protect your family, which is the number one responsibility, in my opinion,

00:08:01.020 is to be able to protect your family. Well, we could have all of these theories and classes we take

00:08:06.680 and all of, you know, all the things we do to be that person. But if we're not putting ourselves in

00:08:12.280 some sort of stressful environment prior to exercising those skills, we really aren't able

00:08:18.840 to measure ourselves and see where we're prepared. So I'm a firm believer in using exercise, physical

00:08:24.460 exercise to elevate the body prior to maybe even going to the range and going to the range and firing

00:08:30.780 your weapon. Maybe it's, you know, dropping down and doing some sort of physical activity before you

00:08:36.080 you get your pistol out and start putting rounds on the target. Or maybe it's, you know, we have a

00:08:42.560 natural disaster. Are you planning for that natural disaster under stress? Or are you just sitting at

00:08:48.240 the table talking about what you're going to do? Because when the roof gets pulled off your house,

00:08:52.640 so I believe elevating yourself and creating scenarios within your environment, your life,

00:08:58.640 your family, whatever it may be, will allow you to, you know, handle those situations much better when

00:09:04.260 they happen. Yeah, this is a great point because I can even give you a small example of this. Just

00:09:08.620 the other day, I had just got done with a pretty intense workout and I came home and my wife started 0.99

00:09:13.860 talking to me and I literally could not understand what she was saying. And I just kind of nodded my

00:09:19.260 head. Yeah. Okay. I'll do that. Whatever. Anyway, she came back to me a couple hours after I had fully

00:09:22.780 recovered from my workout. And she said, do you remember about whatever the conversation was? And I said,

00:09:27.260 uh, no, remind me. And I think this is a small example of what you're talking about. Like I wasn't

00:09:32.880 thinking clearly at the time because of that elevated pressure and stress of my exercise.

00:09:38.420 Yeah, absolutely. And it's a, it's a, it's the next level type of training. I understand that.

00:09:44.680 But if we're truly trying to be the best version of ourselves, whether it's on the fire ground,

00:09:49.220 within our household, whatever it may be, business, you know, business, if you could elevate yourself and

00:09:56.500 run through some business scenarios, I mean, and whatever you could possibly think about

00:10:00.760 working into your workouts, because I believe inside that workout that you voluntarily

00:10:06.260 are suffering because you are, you're voluntary, you're signing up to suffer and you think through

00:10:12.180 things in that environment and think about how easy it's going to be for you when you don't have

00:10:18.100 that stress, right? Let's just talk about a conversation with somebody you're trying to

00:10:23.680 build a business with or build a relationship with. And you've had that type of scenario, that type

00:10:28.580 of conversation in your mind with others within that gym. And now you're doing it with no stress

00:10:33.860 at all. It's like running with the wind at your back, as opposed to in that training environment,

00:10:38.940 you got the wind in your face. I'm really curious about why I've had some amazing guests,

00:10:45.380 Colonel Grossman on the show to talk about how the body responds to stress. I'm sure you're familiar

00:10:49.280 with some of his work on combat and on killing. And he talks about what the body does in a stressful

00:10:55.160 situation, which is something that you actually alluded to as we started this conversation.

00:10:59.180 And it almost seems like the body's natural response is at direct odds with being able to

00:11:06.340 address the situation that you might find yourself in, in a level headed manner. Do you agree with that?

00:11:12.920 And why is that the case?

00:11:14.440 It's a, it's a survival mechanism. So the body, you know, over hundreds of years has adapted to deal

00:11:20.780 with stress. You're either going to fight or flight, you know, it's your fight or flight response.

00:11:24.840 It's your sympathetic nervous system that kicks in when you feel fear, elevated heart rate,

00:11:30.620 elevated respiratory rate, all those things are taking place. Now it's supposed to prepare you

00:11:36.100 for that moment, but how many people are actually in that moment today, right? In our, in our environment,

00:11:41.800 in our life. Yeah. So back in the day, it served its purpose because we were dealing with that stuff

00:11:46.160 all the time, hundreds of years ago, hunting for food, uh, protecting our tribe, all those things

00:11:51.520 that we did. But today's man, we're rarely in that environment. So it feels like we're at odds,

00:11:56.560 but it's actually doing what it's supposed to be doing. We're just not really prepared for that.

00:12:01.360 Yeah. And, and, and to go back on one of the things that you had said earlier too,

00:12:04.460 is you're talking about this, the, the simulation that you're, you're, you're simulating here,

00:12:09.360 but then you also talked about and mentioned the belief system of this. Talk to me about what you

00:12:13.960 meant by belief system. So in my world, in the fire service, you know, I take an oath that I'm

00:12:20.780 going to protect our communities, serve and protect our communities. So I believe at the beginning of

00:12:27.880 anything, whether you want to get in better shape, build a business, whatever, whatever it is you want

00:12:32.500 to do. The first thing we really have to develop the foundation of it all is our mindset, our belief.

00:12:38.160 What does what we're about to do represent? Because until we could really get solid on that,

00:12:45.100 then everything else is, is really, it doesn't matter because there's going to be reasons why

00:12:49.140 we don't do things. Excuses are going to come up. And if we don't have a strong belief system,

00:12:52.540 a mindset prior to that, most of the time the excuses are going to win. So we're not going to

00:12:56.820 participate in that type of training. So we need to, so for, for the, for myself and the way I train

00:13:03.000 our people is we believe our training and our level of fitness will make the difference between

00:13:08.940 life and death for others. That's a very strong belief system. So when we filter a decision, we

00:13:14.900 filter it through that belief. So if I want to sit down and watch television and I actually know I

00:13:19.160 haven't trained today and I haven't did what I haven't done what I was supposed to do, I'll filter

00:13:23.580 that decision through that belief. I believe that my fitness and my training will make the difference

00:13:28.400 between life and death. It's an automatic, I'm up and I'm doing something to make myself a better

00:13:33.800 man, a better firefighter and move in that direction. So I think it all starts with the

00:13:38.880 belief, the mindset. Once you get that right, I think everything else is, it's just different

00:13:44.080 protocols you choose to participate in. So if I hear you correctly, what I'm hearing you say is that

00:13:49.180 if people aren't doing what they want to do and what they know they should be doing, is there a

00:13:55.280 I'm assuming it's either a disconnect between their belief or they haven't even identified a

00:14:01.420 strong enough belief system. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. How do you find, well, I was

00:14:06.220 going to say, how do you find this for yourself? But I don't want to ask that question because I

00:14:09.880 don't think it's something that you just stumble upon like a rock one day. I think it's something

00:14:13.580 you probably develop. Talk to me about whether it's finding, developing, articulating that belief

00:14:19.200 system for yourself. Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the environment you're brought

00:14:24.200 up in, the challenges you face, the adversities you overcome, the books you read. What do you

00:14:31.360 choose to consume on a daily basis? What are you listening to? What are you reading? Who are your

00:14:36.380 influences in the world from the time you're a kid to you're a man? I think all of those things

00:14:41.800 come together and allow you to form a belief system. So I think it could be intentional. I think

00:14:47.040 you can intentionally begin to form a belief system based on the things you choose to consume.

00:14:51.320 And I don't know that enough people are doing that in today's world. I think a lot of people

00:14:56.120 are just going about their day. They turn the radio on. They listen to, you know, something that

00:15:00.360 influences them. They turn the TV on. They listen to something that influences them. They don't read

00:15:04.780 a book. They're surrounding themselves with the wrong people. And at the end of the day, they're like,

00:15:08.820 well, I don't have a strong enough belief system. Well, you don't have a strong enough circle of

00:15:12.600 influence and you're not consuming the right things to actually develop that belief system in the first

00:15:16.440 place. I wholeheartedly agree. And obviously this has changed for me in my life when I began to

00:15:22.320 surround myself with the right information. And obviously this continues to grow and grow and I

00:15:27.060 become stronger. So I completely understand and agree with what you're saying. How do you identify

00:15:32.380 the type of people that you should be following or even the influences that you should be consuming?

00:15:37.960 So for me, I look at who do I want to be? You know, who is it at the end of the day? Who do I

00:15:44.200 want to be for my family? Who do I want to be for the fire department? Who do I want to be for the

00:15:49.100 community? And I look out into the world and I find those people. I find those people that are what I

00:15:55.660 want to be. And then I begin to read their books. I begin to listen to what they have to say, whether

00:16:01.300 it's a video or a podcast. And through that, they've already done it. The plans are ready. The

00:16:07.060 blueprints there. Now I'm going to have my own style. I'm going to have my own personal life

00:16:10.740 experience. I'm going to have all these things that I bring to the table, but I'm consuming the

00:16:16.080 right information. So I look out into the world and I look at people and I decide who do I want to be

00:16:21.820 like? I have an idea of who I want to be, but then I find those people and that's who I allow to

00:16:25.860 influence me. Let's go back to the, this topic of making decisions under stress, because I really do

00:16:32.820 think this is really important and critical. You talk about adapting and overcoming. And I think

00:16:39.500 that people are so stuck in their ways at times, and it's very difficult for them to figure out even

00:16:46.060 or even see what they should be doing to adapt or improvise. How do you suggest somebody get better

00:16:52.420 at adapting to uncertainties in life? I could come from the fire service background and then hopefully

00:16:59.360 apply it to everybody. But for us, it's being put in situations that we have no, um, heads up on.

00:17:07.580 We try a training scenario that I have no information on, and maybe I don't have the resources I need on

00:17:13.880 purpose so that I have to critically think through, okay, I have to solve this problem. I'm not going to

00:17:19.880 quit. I'm not going to give up and look at that as a challenge. Like this is a good thing. I want to be

00:17:25.140 that person who could overcome all of these challenges without the resources, without, without

00:17:30.540 knowing ahead of time. So to apply that to the everyday world, you'd have to be creative. You'd have to

00:17:36.520 figure out ways, whether it's a business meeting or, you know, having to think on the fly. Hey, you have

00:17:41.560 to do a presentation on five minutes, and it's a topic that you know nothing about. Embrace that. Embrace

00:17:47.040 that. Say, I'll do it. There's five of you in a room. We need somebody to talk about this in front of a

00:17:51.480 panel or whoever it may be who wants to do it. Be that person. Be the first person to raise your

00:17:56.040 hand and say, I will do it. And then put yourself in that situation because you may fail, but that's

00:18:02.740 okay because we realize that failing is important. And, but with the lessons that come, I'll give you

00:18:07.000 an example. Yesterday, they asked me to drive a forklift on the drill ground and move these two

00:18:12.180 burn cells, which were large burn cells. I had just got trained up on the forklift, right?

00:18:16.500 I was, I was, I was fearful on how to, was I going to be able to do this? Was I going to be

00:18:21.960 able to do something that I just got trained on, but really haven't put the practice in just yet

00:18:25.980 because we've been so busy. And I said, I'll do it. Let's do it. And I figured it out. And I got

00:18:30.680 that burn cell. It was this large burn cell. I couldn't even see where I was driving the forklift,

00:18:34.180 but at the end of moving these two burn cells across the drill ground to a different location,

00:18:39.320 real simple for some people. But for me, it was okay. I had to figure out how to get this burn

00:18:44.840 cell strapped to a forklift that I had to do all these things I had never done before.

00:18:48.720 What do you mean by a burn cell?

00:18:50.400 A burn cell is a, it's a box that they build so that we could light it on fire. Whether we want

00:18:56.540 to put a Christmas tree on there to give an example of what would happen if a Christmas tree got too dry

00:19:02.020 and you didn't water it. And it has, so we use these cells and they're probably 10 by 10 rooms,

00:19:07.200 but it's a, it's a wooden box that's on this little forklift. And I had to strap it to the forklift.

00:19:12.300 And the first thing I said to myself is adapt and overcome in my head.

00:19:15.800 Yeah.

00:19:16.020 Now it's not a life and death situation, but it's something that I could carry over to all

00:19:20.140 aspects of my life.

00:19:21.400 This sounds more like a mantra that you've just adhered to and adapted in your life.

00:19:26.800 It really is. And it wasn't my original thought. It came, it's really the foundation of the fire

00:19:32.300 service is adapt and overcome. Cause no call that we go on is, goes the way we really want it to.

00:19:38.900 Cause there's so many variables. There's so many variables, temperature, you know,

00:19:43.400 things start freezing. The building construction has some changes to it that weren't supposed to

00:19:48.900 take place prior to it catching fire. There's all kinds of things that change. So it really has come

00:19:54.120 through the fire service and I've just applied it to other areas of my life.

00:19:58.840 Gentlemen, I just want to take a quick moment and introduce you to our second

00:20:02.080 live event, the uprising, which is going to be held April 27th through the 30th, 2017.

00:20:06.840 This event is going to sell out quickly. In fact, I think we have eight, maybe nine spots left. So

00:20:12.260 if you're interested, get signed up quickly at order of man.com slash uprising. In the meantime,

00:20:17.300 I want you to know that this event is designed to help you take your life to the next level.

00:20:21.340 Last year was such an incredible event and we decided to up the game a little this year. We'll

00:20:25.780 be shooting, doing some tactical scenarios, some workouts, some instruction from athletes, Navy

00:20:30.060 seals, survival experts, and entrepreneurs all designed to help you walk away with some actionable

00:20:35.040 tools, the strategy skills so that you can be a better protector, a better provider,

00:20:39.240 a better presider over yourself, your family, and the people you care about. So you're going to

00:20:43.380 connect with 24 other men who want to succeed at high levels, just like you do. And we'll make

00:20:48.060 sure to throw in a few surprises just to keep you on your toes. So again, head to order of man.com

00:20:51.920 slash uprising to claim your spots, do it quickly because we are going to sell out soon. And now with

00:20:56.700 that said, let's get back to my interview with John. I'm sure not only those type of variables,

00:21:02.500 but then you add the human dynamic and the human element and that just completely throws another

00:21:07.220 dimension into this thing, I bet. Absolutely. Yeah. And the other, the other thing I really

00:21:12.500 try to share in this whole, cause it kind of brings us all together. I believe our desire

00:21:18.700 to be the best version of ourselves, whether it's a husband, a father, a firefighter, whatever it may be,

00:21:26.360 our desire to be the best version of ourselves has to be stronger than our fear of failing.

00:21:31.120 Once we get to that point, then I think all other things, and it doesn't mean you don't fear it

00:21:36.060 because I had fear driving a forklift yesterday. How ridiculous is that? But it was true. I'm being 0.88

00:21:39.980 honest. That was something I didn't want to, I don't want to look bad. I don't want to roll the

00:21:44.440 forklift over with the burn cell. So I think once you get to that point where your desire to be the

00:21:50.620 best version of yourself is stronger than the fear of failing, I think there's a lot of things that

00:21:54.860 you could accomplish. One of the things that I really like about what you're saying. So we talk about

00:21:59.720 this a lot. We talk about what fear actually represents and fear is there to serve us,

00:22:04.860 right? I mean, fear at the end of the day is going to tell you that you're about to do something

00:22:08.900 incredibly stupid that may kill you or that you're doing something that will make you just a little 0.99

00:22:14.780 bit uncomfortable for the moment. And I think it's our job as men to determine, is this fear, 1.00

00:22:19.780 this emotion that I'm experiencing right now, telling me to not do it because I might die or

00:22:24.580 because I'm about to do something that's going to expand me in some way?

00:22:28.320 Oh yeah, absolutely. That's a great way to put it.

00:22:30.600 How do you avoid taking the path of least resistance? Because it would have been very

00:22:34.720 easy for you in this case with a burn cell on the forklift to shrink back in the corner and let

00:22:39.520 somebody step up. Is this just a matter of practice? Is it just making the intentionality?

00:22:45.180 How do you develop this? And I think it is a skill and the ability to continue to step up when you do

00:22:51.680 experience that fear. Well, I think a lot of it comes down to experience. I have had experiences

00:22:57.600 where I have not stepped up. And I remember walking away from those experiences thinking

00:23:02.700 just how I felt. I felt like I wasn't fulfilling my full potential. I felt like I allowed the fear

00:23:11.780 of failing to determine what could have been a great outcome. And I know what that feels like.

00:23:17.060 And now I know what it feels like to overcome that. So it's application. It's like when that

00:23:22.400 moment arises and you have the opportunity, take it, take that opportunity because there's greatness

00:23:29.400 on the other side of that. There really is. That's where we, I think, learn the most is when we

00:23:34.400 overcome that fear. So for me personally, it's been the experience of not doing it and knowing what

00:23:39.400 that feels like and the experience of doing it and knowing that what that feels like and choosing to

00:23:44.180 overcome that fear and move forward. And it still comes up. It's still, it's not going to go away.

00:23:49.080 That's something anyone who says they're not afraid or fearful of anything, they're not being truthful

00:23:55.340 because that's, that's impossible. What they're, what they may be saying is they're, they're able to

00:24:00.920 manage it. But if you really look at it closely, it's not that they're not afraid. They're just doing

00:24:06.480 a really good job managing that fear. Yeah. I like that. And that's something actually Tim Kennedy said a

00:24:11.540 while back on one of our shows, as he said, anybody who tells you they're not fearful is lying,

00:24:15.680 which is pretty much exactly what you just said. So I can attest to the truth of that. Certainly in

00:24:19.680 my life as well. This sounds like a lot of self-reflection on your part, which is, I think

00:24:24.320 something men in general struggle with mostly because they don't give themselves the margin and

00:24:29.960 the time that they need to reflect upon how their day went. What does your reflection process look

00:24:36.060 like? I don't know if you guys do something like an after action review, but I'd be really curious

00:24:39.860 about that process for yourself. Yeah. So on the fire ground and I'll share the fire ground in my

00:24:45.300 personal, the fire ground, we, you know, we have the call. We typically, as the crew, we'll talk

00:24:51.360 about the call amongst the crew and our crews are four. We have four on the engine and four on the

00:24:55.760 truck. So we'll talk about it. How did the call go? If you have a good team and a good crew, you're

00:25:01.840 going to be honest with each other without having your feelings hurt. You know, I think we could have

00:25:05.280 done this better. So it starts at the crew level. The department then will go, go ahead and go

00:25:09.920 through an after action report. And we kind of go through what can we have done better? Do we have

00:25:14.260 the resources we need? Did we train our people correctly? We look at everything. So that gets

00:25:19.620 taken care of first at the crew level within the firehouse. And then we move, if it's a larger type

00:25:24.880 of call, like the theater shooting, it'll actually go to a national after action report, which we had

00:25:30.080 to identify things that we could have done better and things that we did well. Now, personally,

00:25:35.860 at the end of the day, you know, I like to journal. I like to journal a little bit in the morning and

00:25:41.100 then I'll journal at the end of the day. And I'll kind of look at how I journaled in the morning. I

00:25:45.680 have a list of things I want to do the night before I'll make that list journal in the morning. And at

00:25:50.080 the end, at the end of the day, I'll go back through what I wanted to accomplish. I'll actually

00:25:54.280 identify fears I had, whether or not I overcame them or not. And I kind of look back and say,

00:25:58.940 okay, I could have done a better job in this area. I'm really happy how things went in this area.

00:26:02.860 And it's basically our composition notebook. I have composition notebooks that you buy for a buck.

00:26:07.260 Right. And that's really how I track it. So I can measure myself and see if I'm overcoming those

00:26:13.220 fears, if I'm taking the chances I should be taking to have the patience I needed with my children

00:26:18.500 today. You know, all those things that we all need to work on as men. You brought up a really good

00:26:23.660 point. You said one of the things you said about with regards to your crew is that if you have a good

00:26:27.500 crew, you'll be willing and able to share what really needs to happen without getting your

00:26:31.340 feelings hurt. How do you give other people permission to share fully so that you can really

00:26:37.900 improve? Well, I think you have to be that person first. If we're not being honest with ourselves,

00:26:43.880 if we're walking around, like we have it all together, we don't make mistakes. We're the,

00:26:47.640 we're the best firefighter in the world, whatever it may be, then you don't invite people to be honest

00:26:52.880 with themselves because you're trying to be this perfect person, which nobody is. So I think

00:26:59.220 being honest and talking to the crew and letting them know, you know, I could have done a better

00:27:03.460 job here creates that environment. The first thing that has to come first all the time is the

00:27:08.720 mission. The mission for us is exceptional service to the community provided by well-trained

00:27:12.960 professionals. That's our mission statement. So if we could really always keep that at the front

00:27:17.680 and then create an environment starting with yourself, where you're willing to be honest with

00:27:21.980 others and talk about your failures and the things you could have done better, it's going to invite

00:27:26.100 them to do the same thing. And then you create this environment where that's, they're able to say

00:27:30.440 those things to you. And now you're able to say those things to them because initially you were

00:27:33.960 saying them to yourself. How do you reconcile being the man in charge for lack of a better term,

00:27:40.920 the chief, whatever you want to call it, then being vulnerable and saying, guys, I don't have

00:27:44.540 this all figured out. But then the next breath literally could be the next breath. Say you have

00:27:48.380 to follow me like I'm, I'm in charge right now. We have to do it this way in literally a life and

00:27:53.460 death situation. How do you reconcile the two thoughts? Well, I think you gain trust by being

00:27:58.940 honest. I think your behaviors beforehand will play a big role. And just so you know, I'm not a chief.

00:28:03.560 I'm not even an officer. My leadership comes from a firefighter paramedic position, which I think is

00:28:08.860 important for people to know. You don't have to be of rank to influence people and be a leader

00:28:13.880 in your department, in your community, whatever it may be. You just have to become the best version

00:28:18.740 of yourself and be willing to step up when needed. But I think when you, to answer your question,

00:28:24.740 when you're honest with yourself and with others and they trust, the trust is built. But prior to

00:28:31.500 that, those behaviors of who you are as a person, they're going to still follow you. If you're doing

00:28:35.820 things right, if your daily method of operation is to train, to work out, to study, to be there,

00:28:43.880 be there for your crew, but you're making sure that you're taking your crew's concerns into

00:28:50.260 consideration, all of those things you do on the front end, that when you are vulnerable and say,

00:28:55.940 hey, look, I made a mistake, but moving forward, I need you guys to do this. Follow me is a lot

00:29:01.560 easier because they're buying in. They're buying into you as a person. Now, not every person could do

00:29:06.800 that because somebody may not have done their work on the front end to be that person to say,

00:29:11.220 hey, I made a mistake. Now follow me. And they're like, well, you haven't done anything.

00:29:14.560 I expect you, I expect you to make a mistake. You haven't done anything to prepare yourself for

00:29:18.720 this moment. Yeah. Or even you haven't done anything. Yes. You may be recognized a mistake

00:29:23.940 and congratulations for being able to admit that. But are you willing to do the work required to

00:29:28.680 make sure that doesn't happen in the future? Absolutely. I think too many times people will say,

00:29:33.240 that's my mistake. I own it as an excuse to come across as that person who is humble.

00:29:39.680 Right. Right. But guess what? You didn't do anything on the front end and chances are,

00:29:43.440 you're not going to do anything on the back end. So I don't buy it. You're not owning anything and

00:29:47.360 you're not taking responsibility. You've picked a word and now you're using that to come across as

00:29:52.280 humble, but that's not humble. That's unprepared. Yeah. That's a great point because that is a word,

00:29:57.540 extreme ownership, responsibility. These are words that we use quite a bit,

00:30:00.960 but they're also used, they're words that are used and often they just get thrown around so

00:30:06.140 flippantly that they're losing a lot of their meaning about what that actually means. And so

00:30:10.120 we can say whatever we want to say, but at the end of the day, what is it that you are doing

00:30:14.560 that's proving that you actually have taken ownership and responsibility for your life and

00:30:18.360 the situation? Absolutely. So John, you talk a lot about the physical component,

00:30:23.260 obviously with what you're doing and even our conversation here, but I think there's other

00:30:26.860 components of this decision-making process. And I want to talk briefly about these other two

00:30:32.080 components that I've thought about. One is emotional resiliency. And I think this is something

00:30:36.580 that's really lacking in society today. And I'm sure that you even see it on your calls

00:30:40.620 and people who may not be experiencing life and death type situations, but their emotions have

00:30:47.680 gotten the better of them and caused this situation to intensify or get worse because they're

00:30:53.700 just not emotionally tough. I'm really curious about your thoughts on this.

00:30:58.920 Yeah. So I'll go back to that call. We saw a lot of horrible things and people having the worst day

00:31:04.620 of their life and it affected different firefighters differently. But I believe if you're intentionally

00:31:10.620 working to overcome those things before those things happen, so I call it a maintenance program.

00:31:16.640 What's your maintenance program look like? How are you dealing with stress? Because dealing with

00:31:20.540 stress is kind of the same as dealing with emotions. So what are you doing on a daily basis to prepare

00:31:26.120 yourself for that moment of emotion or stress, whatever it may be? Again, exercise will come back

00:31:32.520 up. You know, what are you allowing to influence you on a daily basis? What does your nutrition look

00:31:37.320 like? How are you getting the right amount of sleep? How are your relationships? All of these things,

00:31:42.080 you know, what do you fall back on if you have a bad day? Are you turning to alcohol and drugs? Are you

00:31:46.860 turning to something that's going to improve you as a man? Are you reading a book? Are you doing

00:31:50.540 spending time with your family? Do you have a hobby that you like to participate in? So I think that

00:31:55.480 maintenance program has to be intentional. Like what, how are you dealing with stress and how are

00:32:00.600 you dealing with emotions? If you have emotions, are you blaming other people? Are you turning to food

00:32:05.120 and overeating? I think that's the key is to be intentional of creating a maintenance program so

00:32:10.460 that when those things arise, you're not just randomly choosing things to deal with it.

00:32:15.300 How do you recognize if those emotions, I mean, obviously the maintenance program and the

00:32:18.960 after action report and the things that you're talking about are going to help with that. But

00:32:22.280 how do you recognize if you are hurting yourself through your lack of emotional resiliency and

00:32:29.760 toughness? Cause I think, I think sometimes what happens is we get so consumed in our day-to-day

00:32:34.200 operations and we almost are not almost, we are delusional with how effective we are or how level

00:32:40.200 headed we are. How do you recognize this in yourself and where you actually need to improve?

00:32:43.560 Well, I think we could measure ourselves, you know, with the help of others. I think if you

00:32:49.360 have a, a group, like I have a group of men that I consider close friends and, um, I I'll ask them,

00:32:56.460 you know, what can I be doing better? You know, where am I at right now? I'm, I'm willing to ask

00:33:00.120 those tough questions to sometimes get those tough answers. So I think if you have a network of,

00:33:05.140 for me, it's a network of firefighters that I trust because all the things we talked about earlier,

00:33:10.100 I've done with, with these men and I look to them for guidance and mentorship and to keep me on track

00:33:15.820 because I know I'm not strong enough to do it by myself. Yeah. I mean, I think having, Oh, go ahead.

00:33:20.220 Sorry. No, you're okay. I mean, I, I know that I know who I am. I'm very aware of who I am, my

00:33:25.760 weaknesses and, um, I need help. So I look to others to be honest with me, people I trust. I'm not going

00:33:31.260 to call a random person and say, Hey, what do you think about me? But it's definitely those that you

00:33:35.540 trust people that you trust and also people that have credibility with whatever it is you're

00:33:40.340 talking about, right? You're not going to talk about an underperformer about how to perform better.

00:33:44.700 Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. That makes sense. Anything specifically that we can be doing

00:33:49.380 any exercise or activities or even questions that you're asking to build up that mental or

00:33:53.680 that emotional resiliency and toughness. I like the idea of being willing to lay it on the line,

00:34:00.500 being willing to go into a workout and really push yourself. I have workouts that I rate from

00:34:06.820 a scale of one to 10, 10 is my wife has to pick me up. I shouldn't be driving. Typically I sit in

00:34:11.900 about a six or a seven, but every now and then twice a month, I like to bring up a 10 dial up a 10 and

00:34:17.500 really push myself to the point of complete exhaustion. Because I think that's your authentic

00:34:22.100 self. I think when you strip yourself down of all the things that are going on in the world

00:34:26.340 and you really challenge yourself and you still pull that last five or 10% of effort out when you

00:34:32.280 think you're done, there's so much that comes from that. So I would challenge men to be willing to do

00:34:38.920 that. I think a lot of times we fool ourselves and say, yeah, I'm exercising. And some exercise is

00:34:43.600 obviously better than no exercise, but what does that look like? Are you really growing or are you

00:34:47.700 just checking the box? So I think in that environment, and it doesn't have to be every day because you'll

00:34:53.560 break down the body can't handle that. But I think there's so much growth in those sessions. I know

00:34:59.360 for me, that's been the case. And those that I work with the same thing. Yeah. And I know a lot of guys

00:35:04.920 will say things like, well, I tried my hardest and I did my best. And I've always got to question that

00:35:09.440 like, did you really like, what does that even mean? And quite honestly, is that even possible to do

00:35:14.380 your best? Yeah. I mean, your best, you should be there. You should be. I believe you probably can

00:35:19.640 never get there. If you're truly trying to be the best man, the best husband, I don't think you could

00:35:26.380 ever get there. Cause I think if you get there, then you stop working to get there. Right. Is that

00:35:30.180 even possible to be your best? I don't know. Yeah. I, I think once you say, okay, I've arrived,

00:35:35.780 then you start going to this decay phase as opposed to the growth phase. So I think you're always chasing

00:35:41.260 that. I think that's what we need to be doing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it sounds like one of the

00:35:45.560 things that I'm hearing you say too, is that you, when you go into these workouts or you, or you

00:35:49.940 decide to do something that that's going to be difficult, it's about making that decision about

00:35:55.200 how you're going to behave before you actually get into the situation in which you're going to put

00:35:59.020 yourself. Absolutely. And making a commitment that I'm not going to quit. You know, that's not an

00:36:04.140 option today. I can't quit on the fire ground. If I have a victim, you know, and I'm bringing that

00:36:09.640 victim out of the structure and I'm just tired. Well, tired doesn't matter, right? In my world,

00:36:13.960 that doesn't matter. I still need to keep moving. I still need to keep working. So yeah,

00:36:18.540 making that decision not to quit and understanding what it's going to take to accomplish, you know,

00:36:23.500 pushing yourself to complete exhaustion and still moving a little bit more, even when you think

00:36:28.660 you're done. And I think a lot of times if you could surround yourself with people of that similar

00:36:33.200 mindset and that similar belief, that it'll be easier. Cause if you get in that group environment,

00:36:37.460 like you, I know you participate in CrossFit and you could really see the value in looking over and

00:36:42.420 seeing somebody else suffering right alongside of you. Of course. There's so much that happens in

00:36:46.800 that, just that look, there's just such a jolt that goes inside yourself that allows you to go,

00:36:51.940 okay, they're suffering with me. We're going to, I'm going to, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to

00:36:55.120 get this done. Has there been a situation or a call that you've been on where you've been either close

00:37:01.540 to throwing in the towel and wanting to quit and just continue to drive on? And how did that look and

00:37:06.720 turn out? Well, to be honest with you, I haven't been on that call. Even the theater shooting,

00:37:11.260 um, I was, I wasn't at that point. I never thought quitting was an option now in training and training

00:37:17.680 environments. And maybe I haven't been on that call because of the training, or maybe it just

00:37:21.540 hasn't been that call yet. It's hard. I'd have to really look at that. But in training, I have

00:37:26.220 in training scenarios. I have been to that point of, I don't know how I'm going to get this 200 pound

00:37:31.720 mannequin up a flight of stairs out of the basement after I just did 15 minutes of work in full gear on

00:37:37.180 air, but I can't quit because this could be one of my brothers or sisters. This could be

00:37:41.380 someone's, you know, family member. So just digging deep and all the things that had happened before

00:37:47.160 that moment, all the behaviors, all the training, all of the reading, all the things that happened

00:37:51.000 before that moment of making that decision, allowed that decision to, to go in the direction of getting

00:37:56.140 that person up the stairs and out of the, out of the structure. I love it, man. And I've seen some

00:38:01.220 of your workouts, you post some of your workouts and I think that I have it tough. And when you do it

00:38:05.820 in full gear, how much is all your gear way combined if you were to put everything on?

00:38:09.560 Yeah. So it could be anywhere, you know, with just the bunker gear and the SCBA. So the air pack,

00:38:14.440 you're looking at 60 to 70 pounds, but then you add tools in your hand, flashlights, hose,

00:38:20.580 you're well over a hundred pounds and I'm not a big guy. I'm 165, 170 pounds. So that's, you know,

00:38:26.980 half my body weight. So you have to train in that environment and you have, you know, I don't do

00:38:32.740 workouts in gear every day, but I try to do it at least once a week because that's the expectation

00:38:38.040 that I'll be able to perform at that level in my gear. Right. If you're not, if you're not working

00:38:42.240 out with that gear, you're going to short yourself when that call comes. Absolutely. Yeah. Makes

00:38:46.380 sense. Yeah. Go check out the videos cause they're pretty intense and pretty wild. Some of the stuff

00:38:50.020 that you're doing. Well, John, I got to tell you, I appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on the

00:38:52.860 show. I want to, uh, I want to wrap things up with a couple of different questions. Uh, the first one

00:38:57.420 is what does it mean to be a man? Uh, this question is, I've heard you ask this question

00:39:03.600 before, but for myself, it's, uh, taking responsibility for all those that depend on

00:39:10.500 you. And for what that means for me is for me to take responsibility for all those that depend on me,

00:39:15.820 my wife, my children, I have to bring my a game. I have to be the best version of myself. So what it

00:39:21.440 means to be a man to me is always working to be the best version of yourself. So you could protect

00:39:26.800 and take care of those who depend on you. Love it, man. And obviously something we

00:39:31.520 wholeheartedly agree with here. So appreciate that. So I know you've got a, uh, a class coming

00:39:35.680 up. I want to make sure you have the opportunity to share that and then let us know where we can

00:39:39.180 find you and more of the work that you're doing. Okay, great. I appreciate the opportunity to share

00:39:43.940 that. So we'll be in, um, San Diego and that's going to be February 8th at firehouse world. So it's a

00:39:51.020 firehouse, uh, magazine puts on a conference and we're going to be at firehouse world teaching

00:39:56.400 a decision-making under stress. So basically what we talked about today will be in a classroom

00:40:01.740 format. It'll be about an hour and 45 minutes. We do want to do some practical application too.

00:40:06.320 If people are willing to participate, uh, stress the body through physical exercise and then run

00:40:10.720 through some scenarios so that they could see the value in taking that type of training back to their

00:40:14.880 department to connect with me. Our biggest presence right now is on Facebook and Instagram.

00:40:21.080 I haven't really expanded beyond that. So if you just look up fit to fight fire on either one of

00:40:26.340 those platforms, we have a small presence on Twitter. Just haven't put a lot of time into

00:40:30.360 that yet. And then my, um, email is JJ Spira S P E R A at yahoo.com. So, uh, time permitting,

00:40:38.240 I'll, I'll answer all emails as quickly as I can. Awesome. John, I appreciate you. I appreciate

00:40:43.100 your service to, uh, the community and, and what it is you're doing and of course how you're showing

00:40:47.920 up. Thanks for joining us on the show today, man. Uh, thank you very much. I've been listening

00:40:52.080 to the podcast for a while, so it's, it's an honor to be a, be a guest. I appreciate it,

00:40:55.680 Brian. There you have it, man. Mr. John Spira teaching us a bit about what it takes to handle

00:41:00.860 ourselves under the most stressful situations. I encourage you to go check out his work with

00:41:05.620 fit to fight fire. I know that you're going to be blown away as I have been with what he's doing.

00:41:09.980 I want to thank him. I want to thank you. If you're a firefighter, a first responder,

00:41:13.740 a military member, whether that's currently or past military member for your service and the

00:41:19.080 sacrifice to the people that you care most about. Again, guys, just a quick reminder about our second

00:41:23.400 live event, the uprising. We're going to sell out those 25 spots this year. I think we've got eight,

00:41:27.240 maybe nine spots left and I want to see you there. And at the end of the day, we're going to be

00:41:30.940 completing some activities, challenges that are going to be exactly what you need to take your

00:41:35.920 life to the next level. So you can learn more. You can claim your spot at order of man.com slash

00:41:40.740 uprising. I'm going to look forward to talk with you on Friday for our Friday field notes,

00:41:44.300 but until then take action and become the man you were meant to be. Thank you for listening to the

00:41:49.300 order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant

00:41:54.320 to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - January 31, 2017

098： Trial by Fire ｜ John Spera

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