098： Trial by Fire ｜ John Spera
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Summary
Firefighter John Spira joins me to talk about what it takes to handle stressful situations, how to get better at adapting, something he calls belief filtering, and how to build up emotional, mental, and physical resiliency.
Transcript
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Stress is something all of us as men deal with on a daily basis, and unless you and I can find a way
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to manage that stress effectively, we just will not be able to show up in the way that others are
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relying upon us to show up. Firefighter John Spira with Fit to Fight Fire joins me to talk about what
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it takes to handle ourselves in stressful situations, how to get better at adapting,
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something that he calls belief filtering, and how to build up emotional, mental, and physical resiliency.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge
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your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not
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easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who
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you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and founder of Order
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of Man. I don't care how long you've been listening to this show, I want to welcome you to what I would
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consider to be the manliest podcast available. Now, I know that I'm a bit biased, but I can tell
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you that we are growing so much over the past several months. In fact, this month, we're going
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to have a 30 plus percent increase in listeners from men all over the planet who are tuning into
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the podcast that you're tuning into right now. Now, I tell you this for two reasons. First,
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I need to make sure I give credit where credit is due. I want to thank you. I want to thank you if
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you've been listening for any amount of time, and also the support, the emails, the iTunes reviews
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that you've left. We could not make this happen without you. And second, I tell you this so you
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can take heart knowing that the message we're sharing about how to be a better man is really
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resonating with men across the globe. So again, I want to thank you for tuning in every single week.
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Now, before I get too much into this discussion today, I want to give you a couple of quick
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resources. And the first is the show notes. I make show notes available and the links available
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every single week. And then it can be found at order of man.com slash zero nine eight. And second,
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if you've not already done this, I know there's a lot of you who have, and there's some of you who
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have not join our closed Facebook group. We've got just under 19,000 men in that group now who are
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having thousands of real conversations about what it means to be a man. And third, and this is a little
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different today. We've got our second live event, the uprising it's coming up. It's April 27th
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through the 30th of this year, 2017. And I want you to be among the first to know about it.
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I'm going to give you some more details about the uprising during the break, but for now know that
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you can get the details and watch some of the incredible footage from last year's event at
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order of man.com slash uprising spots are filling up quick. I think we've got eight or nine spots
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available. So make sure you jump on it as quickly as you can. And again, you can do that at
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order of man.com slash uprising. Now I want to introduce you to my guest today. I'm so honored to be
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interviewing my friend and someone I've followed for a long time firefighter, John Spira.
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As I said, he's somebody I've been following for some time now, and I've been blown away by his
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work ethic and his ability to lead others, especially in stressful situations. I know we
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have a lot of men here who listen to this show who are firefighters, military members,
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and other first responders. I've got to say that I respect you and anyone who steps into the line of
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fire, literally in the case of my guest today, he's a firefighter and a paramedic in Aurora,
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Colorado. And his team was actually tasked with responding to the Aurora, Colorado theater
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shooting in 2012, I believe it was, but he's going to talk with us a bit about that experience
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and the drive that he has to be the best he can be, which you'll hear in his voice when he talks
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about and says the level of our training will make the difference between life and death for others.
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John, what's going on, brother? Thanks for joining me on the show today.
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Hey, Ryan, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
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Yeah. You know, we've been connected for a couple of years, I think since we started order of man,
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and I've been following the work that you're doing with Fit to Fight Fire. And I got to say,
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I'm pretty excited about having you on the show and talking about some real world application.
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I think that's going to be the most valuable part of this discussion today.
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I'm looking forward to sharing some of my experiences and some of the things that
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we're doing in the fire service. So yeah, let's get it done.
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Yeah. And I know there's a lot, obviously, within the fire department of fire service that
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you're doing that is going to be applicable, not only to the first responders that are listening,
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but anybody who's listening. And one of the things that I really like what you talk about
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is how to make better decisions, especially under stress. Can you maybe talk with us a little bit
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about just the premise of why this type of work and conversation is so important for you?
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Yeah, it's really important because as a first responder, you know, we're going to be
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under stress on the fire ground and EMS call. A lot of times that stress is caused by uncertainty
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and maybe a little bit of fear. And the body's response to that is to narrow the peripheral,
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diminish the hearing. Sometimes it kind of feels like you're in a tunnel. So it will compromise
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our ability to make good decisions if we're not prepared for that. So one of the things we look at is
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it's really hard for me as a instructor to get another firefighter to believe they're going to die
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safely or believe that their life's in danger or whatever it may be safely. But what we can do
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is we can replicate that stress by introducing physical exercise. Now it's working on a different
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mechanism, but you still get the elevation of the heart rate, the respiratory rate. You will somewhat
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feel like you're in a tunnel if you work yourself hard enough and then start introducing skills and
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scenario based decision making when you're elevated, when you have that increased heart rate,
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respiratory rate. And we believe, and I've experienced this personally, I can share an
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experience with you on a call that I had where 14 years of that training prepared me for the biggest
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call of my life. Yeah. So it was the Aurora theater shooting. And right here in the city of Aurora,
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where I worked for the fire department, we had a active shooter come into the theater and shoot 70
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people. So we happened to be first on scene of that incident. And I was one of the first
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firefighter paramedics on the incident. And up until that point, I had trained myself in different
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environments where even if it was just a crew based workout, we knew we're going to work out in the
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morning. We talked prior to the next shift and we'd say, Hey, I want you to bring five questions in
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on a note card that I don't know about. No one knows about all of our questions should be somewhat
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different. And in the middle of the workout, start asking these questions. And it could be
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something as simple as the signs of flashover, which is a condition on the fire ground that we're
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concerned with, or the pediatric dose of a certain medication. So in the middle of this workout,
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where you're pushing yourself, you're suffering, you're being asked questions that are pretty
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important. So here I am on this call. And we're faced with hundreds of people running from the theater
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covered in blood. And a lot of the things I had trained on, I was a SWAT medic on two different
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fire departments. So I had 20 active shooter trainings prior to that night, probably 19 more
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than most firefighters. But a lot of the things I trained on the check the box type of training that
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we sometimes do, I couldn't utilize because the environment was so dynamic and nothing was textbook
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that I really did have to think on my feet. We didn't have the ambulances we needed to transport
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the patients that we had. So we had to adapt and overcome. We had to utilize police cars totally
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outside of protocol. But that was something that we had to do because at the end of the day,
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they needed a surgeon. So that training and a belief system of that training and applying that
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type of training over the years really was what I fell back on that night at that call.
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Yeah. I mean, that can be difficult. And obviously you can't replicate this stuff. You talk about
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simulating as best you can. How does somebody who's not only a first responder, but even just a civilian
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simulating or even know what they should be simulating in order to prepare for the unknown
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and the uncertainty we might face? Yeah. So let's just take, let's say you're a husband and a father
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and you want to protect your family, which is the number one responsibility, in my opinion,
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is to be able to protect your family. Well, we could have all of these theories and classes we take
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and all of, you know, all the things we do to be that person. But if we're not putting ourselves in
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some sort of stressful environment prior to exercising those skills, we really aren't able
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to measure ourselves and see where we're prepared. So I'm a firm believer in using exercise, physical
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exercise to elevate the body prior to maybe even going to the range and going to the range and firing
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your weapon. Maybe it's, you know, dropping down and doing some sort of physical activity before you
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you get your pistol out and start putting rounds on the target. Or maybe it's, you know, we have a
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natural disaster. Are you planning for that natural disaster under stress? Or are you just sitting at
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the table talking about what you're going to do? Because when the roof gets pulled off your house,
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so I believe elevating yourself and creating scenarios within your environment, your life,
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your family, whatever it may be, will allow you to, you know, handle those situations much better when
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they happen. Yeah, this is a great point because I can even give you a small example of this. Just
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the other day, I had just got done with a pretty intense workout and I came home and my wife started
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talking to me and I literally could not understand what she was saying. And I just kind of nodded my
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head. Yeah. Okay. I'll do that. Whatever. Anyway, she came back to me a couple hours after I had fully
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recovered from my workout. And she said, do you remember about whatever the conversation was? And I said,
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uh, no, remind me. And I think this is a small example of what you're talking about. Like I wasn't
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thinking clearly at the time because of that elevated pressure and stress of my exercise.
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Yeah, absolutely. And it's a, it's a, it's the next level type of training. I understand that.
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But if we're truly trying to be the best version of ourselves, whether it's on the fire ground,
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within our household, whatever it may be, business, you know, business, if you could elevate yourself and
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run through some business scenarios, I mean, and whatever you could possibly think about
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working into your workouts, because I believe inside that workout that you voluntarily
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are suffering because you are, you're voluntary, you're signing up to suffer and you think through
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things in that environment and think about how easy it's going to be for you when you don't have
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that stress, right? Let's just talk about a conversation with somebody you're trying to
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build a business with or build a relationship with. And you've had that type of scenario, that type
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of conversation in your mind with others within that gym. And now you're doing it with no stress
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at all. It's like running with the wind at your back, as opposed to in that training environment,
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you got the wind in your face. I'm really curious about why I've had some amazing guests,
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Colonel Grossman on the show to talk about how the body responds to stress. I'm sure you're familiar
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with some of his work on combat and on killing. And he talks about what the body does in a stressful
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situation, which is something that you actually alluded to as we started this conversation.
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And it almost seems like the body's natural response is at direct odds with being able to
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address the situation that you might find yourself in, in a level headed manner. Do you agree with that?
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It's a, it's a survival mechanism. So the body, you know, over hundreds of years has adapted to deal
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with stress. You're either going to fight or flight, you know, it's your fight or flight response.
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It's your sympathetic nervous system that kicks in when you feel fear, elevated heart rate,
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elevated respiratory rate, all those things are taking place. Now it's supposed to prepare you
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for that moment, but how many people are actually in that moment today, right? In our, in our environment,
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in our life. Yeah. So back in the day, it served its purpose because we were dealing with that stuff
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all the time, hundreds of years ago, hunting for food, uh, protecting our tribe, all those things
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that we did. But today's man, we're rarely in that environment. So it feels like we're at odds,
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but it's actually doing what it's supposed to be doing. We're just not really prepared for that.
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Yeah. And, and, and to go back on one of the things that you had said earlier too,
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is you're talking about this, the, the simulation that you're, you're, you're simulating here,
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but then you also talked about and mentioned the belief system of this. Talk to me about what you
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meant by belief system. So in my world, in the fire service, you know, I take an oath that I'm
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going to protect our communities, serve and protect our communities. So I believe at the beginning of
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anything, whether you want to get in better shape, build a business, whatever, whatever it is you want
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to do. The first thing we really have to develop the foundation of it all is our mindset, our belief.
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What does what we're about to do represent? Because until we could really get solid on that,
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then everything else is, is really, it doesn't matter because there's going to be reasons why
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we don't do things. Excuses are going to come up. And if we don't have a strong belief system,
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a mindset prior to that, most of the time the excuses are going to win. So we're not going to
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participate in that type of training. So we need to, so for, for the, for myself and the way I train
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our people is we believe our training and our level of fitness will make the difference between
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life and death for others. That's a very strong belief system. So when we filter a decision, we
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filter it through that belief. So if I want to sit down and watch television and I actually know I
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haven't trained today and I haven't did what I haven't done what I was supposed to do, I'll filter
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that decision through that belief. I believe that my fitness and my training will make the difference
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between life and death. It's an automatic, I'm up and I'm doing something to make myself a better
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man, a better firefighter and move in that direction. So I think it all starts with the
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belief, the mindset. Once you get that right, I think everything else is, it's just different
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protocols you choose to participate in. So if I hear you correctly, what I'm hearing you say is that
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if people aren't doing what they want to do and what they know they should be doing, is there a
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I'm assuming it's either a disconnect between their belief or they haven't even identified a
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strong enough belief system. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. How do you find, well, I was
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going to say, how do you find this for yourself? But I don't want to ask that question because I
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don't think it's something that you just stumble upon like a rock one day. I think it's something
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you probably develop. Talk to me about whether it's finding, developing, articulating that belief
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system for yourself. Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the environment you're brought
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up in, the challenges you face, the adversities you overcome, the books you read. What do you
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choose to consume on a daily basis? What are you listening to? What are you reading? Who are your
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influences in the world from the time you're a kid to you're a man? I think all of those things
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come together and allow you to form a belief system. So I think it could be intentional. I think
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you can intentionally begin to form a belief system based on the things you choose to consume.
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And I don't know that enough people are doing that in today's world. I think a lot of people
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are just going about their day. They turn the radio on. They listen to, you know, something that
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influences them. They turn the TV on. They listen to something that influences them. They don't read
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a book. They're surrounding themselves with the wrong people. And at the end of the day, they're like,
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well, I don't have a strong enough belief system. Well, you don't have a strong enough circle of
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influence and you're not consuming the right things to actually develop that belief system in the first
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place. I wholeheartedly agree. And obviously this has changed for me in my life when I began to
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surround myself with the right information. And obviously this continues to grow and grow and I
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become stronger. So I completely understand and agree with what you're saying. How do you identify
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the type of people that you should be following or even the influences that you should be consuming?
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So for me, I look at who do I want to be? You know, who is it at the end of the day? Who do I
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want to be for my family? Who do I want to be for the fire department? Who do I want to be for the
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community? And I look out into the world and I find those people. I find those people that are what I
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want to be. And then I begin to read their books. I begin to listen to what they have to say, whether
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it's a video or a podcast. And through that, they've already done it. The plans are ready. The
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blueprints there. Now I'm going to have my own style. I'm going to have my own personal life
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experience. I'm going to have all these things that I bring to the table, but I'm consuming the
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right information. So I look out into the world and I look at people and I decide who do I want to be
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like? I have an idea of who I want to be, but then I find those people and that's who I allow to
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influence me. Let's go back to the, this topic of making decisions under stress, because I really do
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think this is really important and critical. You talk about adapting and overcoming. And I think
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that people are so stuck in their ways at times, and it's very difficult for them to figure out even
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or even see what they should be doing to adapt or improvise. How do you suggest somebody get better
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at adapting to uncertainties in life? I could come from the fire service background and then hopefully
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apply it to everybody. But for us, it's being put in situations that we have no, um, heads up on.
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We try a training scenario that I have no information on, and maybe I don't have the resources I need on
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purpose so that I have to critically think through, okay, I have to solve this problem. I'm not going to
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quit. I'm not going to give up and look at that as a challenge. Like this is a good thing. I want to be
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that person who could overcome all of these challenges without the resources, without, without
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knowing ahead of time. So to apply that to the everyday world, you'd have to be creative. You'd have to
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figure out ways, whether it's a business meeting or, you know, having to think on the fly. Hey, you have
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to do a presentation on five minutes, and it's a topic that you know nothing about. Embrace that. Embrace
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that. Say, I'll do it. There's five of you in a room. We need somebody to talk about this in front of a
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panel or whoever it may be who wants to do it. Be that person. Be the first person to raise your
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hand and say, I will do it. And then put yourself in that situation because you may fail, but that's
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okay because we realize that failing is important. And, but with the lessons that come, I'll give you
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an example. Yesterday, they asked me to drive a forklift on the drill ground and move these two
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burn cells, which were large burn cells. I had just got trained up on the forklift, right?
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I was, I was, I was fearful on how to, was I going to be able to do this? Was I going to be
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able to do something that I just got trained on, but really haven't put the practice in just yet
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because we've been so busy. And I said, I'll do it. Let's do it. And I figured it out. And I got
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that burn cell. It was this large burn cell. I couldn't even see where I was driving the forklift,
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but at the end of moving these two burn cells across the drill ground to a different location,
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real simple for some people. But for me, it was okay. I had to figure out how to get this burn
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cell strapped to a forklift that I had to do all these things I had never done before.
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A burn cell is a, it's a box that they build so that we could light it on fire. Whether we want
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to put a Christmas tree on there to give an example of what would happen if a Christmas tree got too dry
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and you didn't water it. And it has, so we use these cells and they're probably 10 by 10 rooms,
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but it's a, it's a wooden box that's on this little forklift. And I had to strap it to the forklift.
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And the first thing I said to myself is adapt and overcome in my head.
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Now it's not a life and death situation, but it's something that I could carry over to all
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This sounds more like a mantra that you've just adhered to and adapted in your life.
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It really is. And it wasn't my original thought. It came, it's really the foundation of the fire
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service is adapt and overcome. Cause no call that we go on is, goes the way we really want it to.
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Cause there's so many variables. There's so many variables, temperature, you know,
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things start freezing. The building construction has some changes to it that weren't supposed to
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take place prior to it catching fire. There's all kinds of things that change. So it really has come
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through the fire service and I've just applied it to other areas of my life.
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Gentlemen, I just want to take a quick moment and introduce you to our second
00:20:02.080
live event, the uprising, which is going to be held April 27th through the 30th, 2017.
00:20:06.840
This event is going to sell out quickly. In fact, I think we have eight, maybe nine spots left. So
00:20:12.260
if you're interested, get signed up quickly at order of man.com slash uprising. In the meantime,
00:20:17.300
I want you to know that this event is designed to help you take your life to the next level.
00:20:21.340
Last year was such an incredible event and we decided to up the game a little this year. We'll
00:20:25.780
be shooting, doing some tactical scenarios, some workouts, some instruction from athletes, Navy
00:20:30.060
seals, survival experts, and entrepreneurs all designed to help you walk away with some actionable
00:20:35.040
tools, the strategy skills so that you can be a better protector, a better provider,
00:20:39.240
a better presider over yourself, your family, and the people you care about. So you're going to
00:20:43.380
connect with 24 other men who want to succeed at high levels, just like you do. And we'll make
00:20:48.060
sure to throw in a few surprises just to keep you on your toes. So again, head to order of man.com
00:20:51.920
slash uprising to claim your spots, do it quickly because we are going to sell out soon. And now with
00:20:56.700
that said, let's get back to my interview with John. I'm sure not only those type of variables,
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but then you add the human dynamic and the human element and that just completely throws another
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dimension into this thing, I bet. Absolutely. Yeah. And the other, the other thing I really
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try to share in this whole, cause it kind of brings us all together. I believe our desire
00:21:18.700
to be the best version of ourselves, whether it's a husband, a father, a firefighter, whatever it may be,
00:21:26.360
our desire to be the best version of ourselves has to be stronger than our fear of failing.
00:21:31.120
Once we get to that point, then I think all other things, and it doesn't mean you don't fear it
00:21:36.060
because I had fear driving a forklift yesterday. How ridiculous is that? But it was true. I'm being
00:21:39.980
honest. That was something I didn't want to, I don't want to look bad. I don't want to roll the
00:21:44.440
forklift over with the burn cell. So I think once you get to that point where your desire to be the
00:21:50.620
best version of yourself is stronger than the fear of failing, I think there's a lot of things that
00:21:54.860
you could accomplish. One of the things that I really like about what you're saying. So we talk about
00:21:59.720
this a lot. We talk about what fear actually represents and fear is there to serve us,
00:22:04.860
right? I mean, fear at the end of the day is going to tell you that you're about to do something
00:22:08.900
incredibly stupid that may kill you or that you're doing something that will make you just a little
00:22:14.780
bit uncomfortable for the moment. And I think it's our job as men to determine, is this fear,
00:22:19.780
this emotion that I'm experiencing right now, telling me to not do it because I might die or
00:22:24.580
because I'm about to do something that's going to expand me in some way?
00:22:28.320
Oh yeah, absolutely. That's a great way to put it.
00:22:30.600
How do you avoid taking the path of least resistance? Because it would have been very
00:22:34.720
easy for you in this case with a burn cell on the forklift to shrink back in the corner and let
00:22:39.520
somebody step up. Is this just a matter of practice? Is it just making the intentionality?
00:22:45.180
How do you develop this? And I think it is a skill and the ability to continue to step up when you do
00:22:51.680
experience that fear. Well, I think a lot of it comes down to experience. I have had experiences
00:22:57.600
where I have not stepped up. And I remember walking away from those experiences thinking
00:23:02.700
just how I felt. I felt like I wasn't fulfilling my full potential. I felt like I allowed the fear
00:23:11.780
of failing to determine what could have been a great outcome. And I know what that feels like.
00:23:17.060
And now I know what it feels like to overcome that. So it's application. It's like when that
00:23:22.400
moment arises and you have the opportunity, take it, take that opportunity because there's greatness
00:23:29.400
on the other side of that. There really is. That's where we, I think, learn the most is when we
00:23:34.400
overcome that fear. So for me personally, it's been the experience of not doing it and knowing what
00:23:39.400
that feels like and the experience of doing it and knowing that what that feels like and choosing to
00:23:44.180
overcome that fear and move forward. And it still comes up. It's still, it's not going to go away.
00:23:49.080
That's something anyone who says they're not afraid or fearful of anything, they're not being truthful
00:23:55.340
because that's, that's impossible. What they're, what they may be saying is they're, they're able to
00:24:00.920
manage it. But if you really look at it closely, it's not that they're not afraid. They're just doing
00:24:06.480
a really good job managing that fear. Yeah. I like that. And that's something actually Tim Kennedy said a
00:24:11.540
while back on one of our shows, as he said, anybody who tells you they're not fearful is lying,
00:24:15.680
which is pretty much exactly what you just said. So I can attest to the truth of that. Certainly in
00:24:19.680
my life as well. This sounds like a lot of self-reflection on your part, which is, I think
00:24:24.320
something men in general struggle with mostly because they don't give themselves the margin and
00:24:29.960
the time that they need to reflect upon how their day went. What does your reflection process look
00:24:36.060
like? I don't know if you guys do something like an after action review, but I'd be really curious
00:24:39.860
about that process for yourself. Yeah. So on the fire ground and I'll share the fire ground in my
00:24:45.300
personal, the fire ground, we, you know, we have the call. We typically, as the crew, we'll talk
00:24:51.360
about the call amongst the crew and our crews are four. We have four on the engine and four on the
00:24:55.760
truck. So we'll talk about it. How did the call go? If you have a good team and a good crew, you're
00:25:01.840
going to be honest with each other without having your feelings hurt. You know, I think we could have
00:25:05.280
done this better. So it starts at the crew level. The department then will go, go ahead and go
00:25:09.920
through an after action report. And we kind of go through what can we have done better? Do we have
00:25:14.260
the resources we need? Did we train our people correctly? We look at everything. So that gets
00:25:19.620
taken care of first at the crew level within the firehouse. And then we move, if it's a larger type
00:25:24.880
of call, like the theater shooting, it'll actually go to a national after action report, which we had
00:25:30.080
to identify things that we could have done better and things that we did well. Now, personally,
00:25:35.860
at the end of the day, you know, I like to journal. I like to journal a little bit in the morning and
00:25:41.100
then I'll journal at the end of the day. And I'll kind of look at how I journaled in the morning. I
00:25:45.680
have a list of things I want to do the night before I'll make that list journal in the morning. And at
00:25:50.080
the end, at the end of the day, I'll go back through what I wanted to accomplish. I'll actually
00:25:54.280
identify fears I had, whether or not I overcame them or not. And I kind of look back and say,
00:25:58.940
okay, I could have done a better job in this area. I'm really happy how things went in this area.
00:26:02.860
And it's basically our composition notebook. I have composition notebooks that you buy for a buck.
00:26:07.260
Right. And that's really how I track it. So I can measure myself and see if I'm overcoming those
00:26:13.220
fears, if I'm taking the chances I should be taking to have the patience I needed with my children
00:26:18.500
today. You know, all those things that we all need to work on as men. You brought up a really good
00:26:23.660
point. You said one of the things you said about with regards to your crew is that if you have a good
00:26:27.500
crew, you'll be willing and able to share what really needs to happen without getting your
00:26:31.340
feelings hurt. How do you give other people permission to share fully so that you can really
00:26:37.900
improve? Well, I think you have to be that person first. If we're not being honest with ourselves,
00:26:43.880
if we're walking around, like we have it all together, we don't make mistakes. We're the,
00:26:47.640
we're the best firefighter in the world, whatever it may be, then you don't invite people to be honest
00:26:52.880
with themselves because you're trying to be this perfect person, which nobody is. So I think
00:26:59.220
being honest and talking to the crew and letting them know, you know, I could have done a better
00:27:03.460
job here creates that environment. The first thing that has to come first all the time is the
00:27:08.720
mission. The mission for us is exceptional service to the community provided by well-trained
00:27:12.960
professionals. That's our mission statement. So if we could really always keep that at the front
00:27:17.680
and then create an environment starting with yourself, where you're willing to be honest with
00:27:21.980
others and talk about your failures and the things you could have done better, it's going to invite
00:27:26.100
them to do the same thing. And then you create this environment where that's, they're able to say
00:27:30.440
those things to you. And now you're able to say those things to them because initially you were
00:27:33.960
saying them to yourself. How do you reconcile being the man in charge for lack of a better term,
00:27:40.920
the chief, whatever you want to call it, then being vulnerable and saying, guys, I don't have
00:27:44.540
this all figured out. But then the next breath literally could be the next breath. Say you have
00:27:48.380
to follow me like I'm, I'm in charge right now. We have to do it this way in literally a life and
00:27:53.460
death situation. How do you reconcile the two thoughts? Well, I think you gain trust by being
00:27:58.940
honest. I think your behaviors beforehand will play a big role. And just so you know, I'm not a chief.
00:28:03.560
I'm not even an officer. My leadership comes from a firefighter paramedic position, which I think is
00:28:08.860
important for people to know. You don't have to be of rank to influence people and be a leader
00:28:13.880
in your department, in your community, whatever it may be. You just have to become the best version
00:28:18.740
of yourself and be willing to step up when needed. But I think when you, to answer your question,
00:28:24.740
when you're honest with yourself and with others and they trust, the trust is built. But prior to
00:28:31.500
that, those behaviors of who you are as a person, they're going to still follow you. If you're doing
00:28:35.820
things right, if your daily method of operation is to train, to work out, to study, to be there,
00:28:43.880
be there for your crew, but you're making sure that you're taking your crew's concerns into
00:28:50.260
consideration, all of those things you do on the front end, that when you are vulnerable and say,
00:28:55.940
hey, look, I made a mistake, but moving forward, I need you guys to do this. Follow me is a lot
00:29:01.560
easier because they're buying in. They're buying into you as a person. Now, not every person could do
00:29:06.800
that because somebody may not have done their work on the front end to be that person to say,
00:29:11.220
hey, I made a mistake. Now follow me. And they're like, well, you haven't done anything.
00:29:14.560
I expect you, I expect you to make a mistake. You haven't done anything to prepare yourself for
00:29:18.720
this moment. Yeah. Or even you haven't done anything. Yes. You may be recognized a mistake
00:29:23.940
and congratulations for being able to admit that. But are you willing to do the work required to
00:29:28.680
make sure that doesn't happen in the future? Absolutely. I think too many times people will say,
00:29:33.240
that's my mistake. I own it as an excuse to come across as that person who is humble.
00:29:39.680
Right. Right. But guess what? You didn't do anything on the front end and chances are,
00:29:43.440
you're not going to do anything on the back end. So I don't buy it. You're not owning anything and
00:29:47.360
you're not taking responsibility. You've picked a word and now you're using that to come across as
00:29:52.280
humble, but that's not humble. That's unprepared. Yeah. That's a great point because that is a word,
00:29:57.540
extreme ownership, responsibility. These are words that we use quite a bit,
00:30:00.960
but they're also used, they're words that are used and often they just get thrown around so
00:30:06.140
flippantly that they're losing a lot of their meaning about what that actually means. And so
00:30:10.120
we can say whatever we want to say, but at the end of the day, what is it that you are doing
00:30:14.560
that's proving that you actually have taken ownership and responsibility for your life and
00:30:18.360
the situation? Absolutely. So John, you talk a lot about the physical component,
00:30:23.260
obviously with what you're doing and even our conversation here, but I think there's other
00:30:26.860
components of this decision-making process. And I want to talk briefly about these other two
00:30:32.080
components that I've thought about. One is emotional resiliency. And I think this is something
00:30:36.580
that's really lacking in society today. And I'm sure that you even see it on your calls
00:30:40.620
and people who may not be experiencing life and death type situations, but their emotions have
00:30:47.680
gotten the better of them and caused this situation to intensify or get worse because they're
00:30:53.700
just not emotionally tough. I'm really curious about your thoughts on this.
00:30:58.920
Yeah. So I'll go back to that call. We saw a lot of horrible things and people having the worst day
00:31:04.620
of their life and it affected different firefighters differently. But I believe if you're intentionally
00:31:10.620
working to overcome those things before those things happen, so I call it a maintenance program.
00:31:16.640
What's your maintenance program look like? How are you dealing with stress? Because dealing with
00:31:20.540
stress is kind of the same as dealing with emotions. So what are you doing on a daily basis to prepare
00:31:26.120
yourself for that moment of emotion or stress, whatever it may be? Again, exercise will come back
00:31:32.520
up. You know, what are you allowing to influence you on a daily basis? What does your nutrition look
00:31:37.320
like? How are you getting the right amount of sleep? How are your relationships? All of these things,
00:31:42.080
you know, what do you fall back on if you have a bad day? Are you turning to alcohol and drugs? Are you
00:31:46.860
turning to something that's going to improve you as a man? Are you reading a book? Are you doing
00:31:50.540
spending time with your family? Do you have a hobby that you like to participate in? So I think that
00:31:55.480
maintenance program has to be intentional. Like what, how are you dealing with stress and how are
00:32:00.600
you dealing with emotions? If you have emotions, are you blaming other people? Are you turning to food
00:32:05.120
and overeating? I think that's the key is to be intentional of creating a maintenance program so
00:32:10.460
that when those things arise, you're not just randomly choosing things to deal with it.
00:32:15.300
How do you recognize if those emotions, I mean, obviously the maintenance program and the
00:32:18.960
after action report and the things that you're talking about are going to help with that. But
00:32:22.280
how do you recognize if you are hurting yourself through your lack of emotional resiliency and
00:32:29.760
toughness? Cause I think, I think sometimes what happens is we get so consumed in our day-to-day
00:32:34.200
operations and we almost are not almost, we are delusional with how effective we are or how level
00:32:40.200
headed we are. How do you recognize this in yourself and where you actually need to improve?
00:32:43.560
Well, I think we could measure ourselves, you know, with the help of others. I think if you
00:32:49.360
have a, a group, like I have a group of men that I consider close friends and, um, I I'll ask them,
00:32:56.460
you know, what can I be doing better? You know, where am I at right now? I'm, I'm willing to ask
00:33:00.120
those tough questions to sometimes get those tough answers. So I think if you have a network of,
00:33:05.140
for me, it's a network of firefighters that I trust because all the things we talked about earlier,
00:33:10.100
I've done with, with these men and I look to them for guidance and mentorship and to keep me on track
00:33:15.820
because I know I'm not strong enough to do it by myself. Yeah. I mean, I think having, Oh, go ahead.
00:33:20.220
Sorry. No, you're okay. I mean, I, I know that I know who I am. I'm very aware of who I am, my
00:33:25.760
weaknesses and, um, I need help. So I look to others to be honest with me, people I trust. I'm not going
00:33:31.260
to call a random person and say, Hey, what do you think about me? But it's definitely those that you
00:33:35.540
trust people that you trust and also people that have credibility with whatever it is you're
00:33:40.340
talking about, right? You're not going to talk about an underperformer about how to perform better.
00:33:44.700
Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. That makes sense. Anything specifically that we can be doing
00:33:49.380
any exercise or activities or even questions that you're asking to build up that mental or
00:33:53.680
that emotional resiliency and toughness. I like the idea of being willing to lay it on the line,
00:34:00.500
being willing to go into a workout and really push yourself. I have workouts that I rate from
00:34:06.820
a scale of one to 10, 10 is my wife has to pick me up. I shouldn't be driving. Typically I sit in
00:34:11.900
about a six or a seven, but every now and then twice a month, I like to bring up a 10 dial up a 10 and
00:34:17.500
really push myself to the point of complete exhaustion. Because I think that's your authentic
00:34:22.100
self. I think when you strip yourself down of all the things that are going on in the world
00:34:26.340
and you really challenge yourself and you still pull that last five or 10% of effort out when you
00:34:32.280
think you're done, there's so much that comes from that. So I would challenge men to be willing to do
00:34:38.920
that. I think a lot of times we fool ourselves and say, yeah, I'm exercising. And some exercise is
00:34:43.600
obviously better than no exercise, but what does that look like? Are you really growing or are you
00:34:47.700
just checking the box? So I think in that environment, and it doesn't have to be every day because you'll
00:34:53.560
break down the body can't handle that. But I think there's so much growth in those sessions. I know
00:34:59.360
for me, that's been the case. And those that I work with the same thing. Yeah. And I know a lot of guys
00:35:04.920
will say things like, well, I tried my hardest and I did my best. And I've always got to question that
00:35:09.440
like, did you really like, what does that even mean? And quite honestly, is that even possible to do
00:35:14.380
your best? Yeah. I mean, your best, you should be there. You should be. I believe you probably can
00:35:19.640
never get there. If you're truly trying to be the best man, the best husband, I don't think you could
00:35:26.380
ever get there. Cause I think if you get there, then you stop working to get there. Right. Is that
00:35:30.180
even possible to be your best? I don't know. Yeah. I, I think once you say, okay, I've arrived,
00:35:35.780
then you start going to this decay phase as opposed to the growth phase. So I think you're always chasing
00:35:41.260
that. I think that's what we need to be doing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it sounds like one of the
00:35:45.560
things that I'm hearing you say too, is that you, when you go into these workouts or you, or you
00:35:49.940
decide to do something that that's going to be difficult, it's about making that decision about
00:35:55.200
how you're going to behave before you actually get into the situation in which you're going to put
00:35:59.020
yourself. Absolutely. And making a commitment that I'm not going to quit. You know, that's not an
00:36:04.140
option today. I can't quit on the fire ground. If I have a victim, you know, and I'm bringing that
00:36:09.640
victim out of the structure and I'm just tired. Well, tired doesn't matter, right? In my world,
00:36:13.960
that doesn't matter. I still need to keep moving. I still need to keep working. So yeah,
00:36:18.540
making that decision not to quit and understanding what it's going to take to accomplish, you know,
00:36:23.500
pushing yourself to complete exhaustion and still moving a little bit more, even when you think
00:36:28.660
you're done. And I think a lot of times if you could surround yourself with people of that similar
00:36:33.200
mindset and that similar belief, that it'll be easier. Cause if you get in that group environment,
00:36:37.460
like you, I know you participate in CrossFit and you could really see the value in looking over and
00:36:42.420
seeing somebody else suffering right alongside of you. Of course. There's so much that happens in
00:36:46.800
that, just that look, there's just such a jolt that goes inside yourself that allows you to go,
00:36:51.940
okay, they're suffering with me. We're going to, I'm going to, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to
00:36:55.120
get this done. Has there been a situation or a call that you've been on where you've been either close
00:37:01.540
to throwing in the towel and wanting to quit and just continue to drive on? And how did that look and
00:37:06.720
turn out? Well, to be honest with you, I haven't been on that call. Even the theater shooting,
00:37:11.260
um, I was, I wasn't at that point. I never thought quitting was an option now in training and training
00:37:17.680
environments. And maybe I haven't been on that call because of the training, or maybe it just
00:37:21.540
hasn't been that call yet. It's hard. I'd have to really look at that. But in training, I have
00:37:26.220
in training scenarios. I have been to that point of, I don't know how I'm going to get this 200 pound
00:37:31.720
mannequin up a flight of stairs out of the basement after I just did 15 minutes of work in full gear on
00:37:37.180
air, but I can't quit because this could be one of my brothers or sisters. This could be
00:37:41.380
someone's, you know, family member. So just digging deep and all the things that had happened before
00:37:47.160
that moment, all the behaviors, all the training, all of the reading, all the things that happened
00:37:51.000
before that moment of making that decision, allowed that decision to, to go in the direction of getting
00:37:56.140
that person up the stairs and out of the, out of the structure. I love it, man. And I've seen some
00:38:01.220
of your workouts, you post some of your workouts and I think that I have it tough. And when you do it
00:38:05.820
in full gear, how much is all your gear way combined if you were to put everything on?
00:38:09.560
Yeah. So it could be anywhere, you know, with just the bunker gear and the SCBA. So the air pack,
00:38:14.440
you're looking at 60 to 70 pounds, but then you add tools in your hand, flashlights, hose,
00:38:20.580
you're well over a hundred pounds and I'm not a big guy. I'm 165, 170 pounds. So that's, you know,
00:38:26.980
half my body weight. So you have to train in that environment and you have, you know, I don't do
00:38:32.740
workouts in gear every day, but I try to do it at least once a week because that's the expectation
00:38:38.040
that I'll be able to perform at that level in my gear. Right. If you're not, if you're not working
00:38:42.240
out with that gear, you're going to short yourself when that call comes. Absolutely. Yeah. Makes
00:38:46.380
sense. Yeah. Go check out the videos cause they're pretty intense and pretty wild. Some of the stuff
00:38:50.020
that you're doing. Well, John, I got to tell you, I appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on the
00:38:52.860
show. I want to, uh, I want to wrap things up with a couple of different questions. Uh, the first one
00:38:57.420
is what does it mean to be a man? Uh, this question is, I've heard you ask this question
00:39:03.600
before, but for myself, it's, uh, taking responsibility for all those that depend on
00:39:10.500
you. And for what that means for me is for me to take responsibility for all those that depend on me,
00:39:15.820
my wife, my children, I have to bring my a game. I have to be the best version of myself. So what it
00:39:21.440
means to be a man to me is always working to be the best version of yourself. So you could protect
00:39:26.800
and take care of those who depend on you. Love it, man. And obviously something we
00:39:31.520
wholeheartedly agree with here. So appreciate that. So I know you've got a, uh, a class coming
00:39:35.680
up. I want to make sure you have the opportunity to share that and then let us know where we can
00:39:39.180
find you and more of the work that you're doing. Okay, great. I appreciate the opportunity to share
00:39:43.940
that. So we'll be in, um, San Diego and that's going to be February 8th at firehouse world. So it's a
00:39:51.020
firehouse, uh, magazine puts on a conference and we're going to be at firehouse world teaching
00:39:56.400
a decision-making under stress. So basically what we talked about today will be in a classroom
00:40:01.740
format. It'll be about an hour and 45 minutes. We do want to do some practical application too.
00:40:06.320
If people are willing to participate, uh, stress the body through physical exercise and then run
00:40:10.720
through some scenarios so that they could see the value in taking that type of training back to their
00:40:14.880
department to connect with me. Our biggest presence right now is on Facebook and Instagram.
00:40:21.080
I haven't really expanded beyond that. So if you just look up fit to fight fire on either one of
00:40:26.340
those platforms, we have a small presence on Twitter. Just haven't put a lot of time into
00:40:30.360
that yet. And then my, um, email is JJ Spira S P E R A at yahoo.com. So, uh, time permitting,
00:40:38.240
I'll, I'll answer all emails as quickly as I can. Awesome. John, I appreciate you. I appreciate
00:40:43.100
your service to, uh, the community and, and what it is you're doing and of course how you're showing
00:40:47.920
up. Thanks for joining us on the show today, man. Uh, thank you very much. I've been listening
00:40:52.080
to the podcast for a while, so it's, it's an honor to be a, be a guest. I appreciate it,
00:40:55.680
Brian. There you have it, man. Mr. John Spira teaching us a bit about what it takes to handle
00:41:00.860
ourselves under the most stressful situations. I encourage you to go check out his work with
00:41:05.620
fit to fight fire. I know that you're going to be blown away as I have been with what he's doing.
00:41:09.980
I want to thank him. I want to thank you. If you're a firefighter, a first responder,
00:41:13.740
a military member, whether that's currently or past military member for your service and the
00:41:19.080
sacrifice to the people that you care most about. Again, guys, just a quick reminder about our second
00:41:23.400
live event, the uprising. We're going to sell out those 25 spots this year. I think we've got eight,
00:41:27.240
maybe nine spots left and I want to see you there. And at the end of the day, we're going to be
00:41:30.940
completing some activities, challenges that are going to be exactly what you need to take your
00:41:35.920
life to the next level. So you can learn more. You can claim your spot at order of man.com slash
00:41:40.740
uprising. I'm going to look forward to talk with you on Friday for our Friday field notes,
00:41:44.300
but until then take action and become the man you were meant to be. Thank you for listening to the
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order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant
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to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.