Order of Man - 10 Rules for Respectful Discussion

00:00:00.000 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:00:05.020 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time.

00:00:10.520 You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life. This is who

00:00:17.280 you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:00:22.860 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Nickler.

00:00:27.820 I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here and welcome

00:00:32.680 back. This is a podcast dedicated to helping you become a more thriving husband, father,

00:00:38.840 business owner, community leader, just a man in general. So to that end, we're going to talk about

00:00:45.020 discussions today. Last week, we talked a little bit about building up influence, credibility,

00:00:50.460 and authority. Having civil discussions, having the right kind of discussions with the right types of

00:00:56.440 people is a big part of the communication process, which in turn is going to help you build more

00:01:02.520 influence, credibility, and authority. And that's what we're all after in varying degrees. And it's

00:01:07.360 frankly what we should be after. Some people don't like the idea that others are after influence or

00:01:12.900 credibility or even authority, which sometimes they interchange with or make synonymous with power.

00:01:18.520 But it isn't wrong. It isn't unethical to want to influence other people, especially in a positive

00:01:25.140 light, because that is your role as a father, as a husband, as an employer potentially, or a team

00:01:32.100 leader, or servicing clients or serving in your community is to be influential and lead these people

00:01:37.880 to a place they could not have imagined going on their own. That's what I would define leadership as.

00:01:42.980 And in order to do that, you have to be influential, credible, and have the authority to do so.

00:01:48.700 So today, we're going to dive deeper into an article that I came across. It's called The Ten

00:01:53.160 Commandments of Respectful Discussion. I'm going to slaughter this name, but it looks like the

00:01:57.160 gentleman's name who wrote this is Antti, or Antti, A-N-T-I-I, Mousticalio, Mousticalio,

00:02:04.720 Antti Mousticalio. Probably slaughtered that, but there you go. You can look it up if you want.

00:02:09.360 Before I get into the 10 points, I do want to just share really quickly that we do have

00:02:13.440 a legacy event, a father-son event coming up September 22nd through the 25th in my home state

00:02:20.660 of Maine on my property here. We have 50 acres. We've got a big, beautiful barn that was built

00:02:25.160 in the early 1900s that's been restored and remodeled. You and your son will stay here on

00:02:31.400 the property in the barn, in fact, and we're going to put you through a rite of passage sort

00:02:36.280 of experience where we're going to challenge you and your sons, push you guys physically,

00:02:40.420 mentally, emotionally. This is for boys between the ages of eight to 15. If you want to help usher

00:02:46.200 your young man into manhood, which is definitely needed in society today, and it's just not

00:02:50.420 happening enough, then head to orderaman.com slash legacy. Orderaman.com slash legacy. Again,

00:02:57.420 September, excuse me, 22nd through the 25th. I hope to see you there. All right, guys,

00:03:01.740 let's get into this. So again, 10 commandments of respectful discussion based on an article I read

00:03:06.440 over the past couple of days. Number one is maintain a humble attitude. If you're going to

00:03:11.960 get into a discussion with somebody, you have to be humble about it because if you're not humble

00:03:16.920 and you're just going in there trying to prove that you are right, there's really no point to

00:03:22.340 even having the discussion. And by the way, what I'm going to share with you today, it goes for both

00:03:26.540 parties. If you recognize that the other party isn't humble, isn't really interested in seeing

00:03:32.260 your perspective or seeing it in a new light, then that's probably a pretty good indicator that you

00:03:37.820 should not have that discussion because it's going to lead to nowhere and it's going to be a waste of

00:03:42.040 your time and a waste of the other person's time. So go into this conversation that you want to have

00:03:46.340 with a humble heart, with a humble attitude, being ready and willing to accept that maybe they have

00:03:53.000 some things right or at least see somebody else's perspective to help round yours out. Now, as I

00:03:59.100 talk about these things, each one of these is for me just as much, if not more so for anybody else,

00:04:05.380 because I know in my dialogue and discussion, sometimes I do pretty well and most of the times

00:04:12.320 I don't at all. So this is a good reminder for me just as much as anybody else. You don't need to

00:04:18.520 be out there to prove your point to everybody, right? There's times where you're going to want to

00:04:22.740 make some points that you want to make sure are strong and that are considerate so that you can

00:04:29.220 help sway people to your side of seeing things, but you're not going to do that if you're driven

00:04:33.980 by ego and pride and arrogance. So number one, have a humble attitude. Number two, keep your

00:04:39.860 cognitive biases in check. We all have biases. It's just the natural state of life. You have an

00:04:47.540 experience, you have backgrounds, you have perspectives, you have religious beliefs, you have a

00:04:52.740 doctrine that you follow. There's a lot of things that we have had in our lives that cause us to

00:04:59.540 believe and think the way that we believe and think. In fact, everything you've gone through

00:05:03.800 in your life, everything you've read, heard, seen, experienced has gotten you to a position where

00:05:09.260 you're in your mind, you believe what you believe because of those experiences that you've had.

00:05:14.000 But we need to understand that they're limited. It doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means they're

00:05:20.040 limited. And you're seeing something from one perspective and maybe not considering that there's

00:05:26.800 an infinite other amount of other perspectives. Again, it doesn't mean you're wrong, but there's

00:05:32.980 always another factor to see. We've all seen video of whether it's like police video or criminal

00:05:39.240 activity. And we look at something from one angle and you think you have everything figured out and

00:05:44.380 then you spin it around and you see another angle from a different camera, a different phone.

00:05:49.160 And now all of a sudden the scenario looks completely different. So remember that you are a by-product of

00:05:56.220 your experiences, your religious teachings, the things that your parents taught you, your education,

00:06:03.220 your culture, your upbringing, you're a product of that. And again, you don't have to change your

00:06:09.000 mind necessarily just because you're having a conversation with somebody, but it is wise to

00:06:13.060 make sure that you consider that maybe there's alternative perspectives. One thing I've often

00:06:18.320 considered is that as I've got into discussions and even debates with people is that occasionally I

00:06:25.540 might resort to mocking that person or name-calling even that person. And it's just, I got to imagine

00:06:36.940 that for the most part, most people aren't dumb. Like they're most people are at least semi-intelligent.

00:06:44.620 They have some experience. And so if we break them down to almost non-human or not even realize that

00:06:54.100 they have a different perspective, then we won't be able to round out our discussion points and our

00:06:57.880 arguments and the way that we see things ourselves. So again, keep your cognitive biases in check.

00:07:03.240 Uh, number three, this one's very important. Be mindful of how your emotions affect you because

00:07:10.740 they do, right? Somebody says something to you or somebody hits on an important topic, something

00:07:15.700 that's crucially important to you. Topics could be, uh, transgenderism. It could be critical race theory,

00:07:22.180 uh, abortion rights, gun rights. There's so many polarized and charged topics right now. Um, and you

00:07:29.140 know, you might have an experience with something that causes you to believe what you believe. I'll

00:07:34.020 give you an example. If you have been the victim or know somebody very close that has been a victim

00:07:40.460 of gun violence. Okay. Well, that's going to be an emotionally charged conversation for you. It's not

00:07:47.120 that you shouldn't have the conversation, but you got to realize that you're going to be more emotionally

00:07:51.660 charged than somebody who's never been victim of gun violence or has only seen, uh, or, or utilized a gun

00:07:58.440 in a, in a positive situation like hunting or a sport shooting, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. But

00:08:06.420 remember your emotions, especially on those charged ones are going to cloud your thinking. So what I try

00:08:12.060 to do again, I'm not perfect. I'm sharing these rules with me just as much as anybody else is maybe

00:08:18.100 just breathe. And if you feel yourself getting emotionally charged, take a step back. If you at

00:08:23.400 some point want to re-engage, you can, but also know you don't always have to re-engage and you don't

00:08:28.420 always have to have an opinion about something. One thing I'm trying to do on social media in particular

00:08:32.880 is not responding to everything, especially that negative criticism. Like I don't have to have a

00:08:38.940 response to everything. Social media makes it seem as though we do. And we want to get points for, you

00:08:45.500 know, getting them or playing the gotcha game, but really you don't have to have an opinion about

00:08:49.920 everything, especially if you know, you're going to be emotionally charged because we, all we do is

00:08:53.860 we end up looking foolish. We don't look intelligent. We don't look rational. We don't

00:08:57.720 look wise. We don't look calculated. We just look kind of dumb. So keep those emotions in check.

00:09:03.480 And if you can't just disengage from the conversation altogether. Number four, be just

00:09:08.860 with opposing views. This one can be very challenging because a lot of the times opposing views are at

00:09:16.780 direct odds with yours. That's why they're opposing views. And so what we'll do is we'll resort to name

00:09:23.060 calling or we'll dismiss a view, or maybe somebody actually brings up a really good point. Again,

00:09:29.380 you don't have to agree with it, but maybe it's a really good point that you ought to consider.

00:09:34.020 Okay. You have to be fair with that, that point that's being made. If it's a good point,

00:09:39.760 if it's a valid point, you can agree with a point without agreeing with the entire premise of the

00:09:46.880 disagreement, right? Somebody might say something like, oh yeah, you know, I hadn't considered that

00:09:51.640 before. Let me think on that. And maybe you still feel the same way, but let's be honest with the

00:09:58.600 way that people respond. And if they bring up something that's valid in an honest way, then I

00:10:04.740 think it's okay to say, oh yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. I've done that with people

00:10:09.140 that I've had disagreements with. And not only is it a great way to pull down some barriers,

00:10:14.400 it's actually just the right thing to do because they are right in some cases. And we need to be

00:10:20.660 able to acknowledge that. And again, this helps us by rounding out our ability to see things and then

00:10:26.340 to be able to have these types of conversations, which will garner the influence, credibility,

00:10:30.180 and authority you desire. So be just with opposing views. Number five, stay on topic. Stay on topic.

00:10:37.180 Like if you're having a discussion with somebody about gun rights, keep it about gun rights. No

00:10:43.240 need to go into all these little tangents and all these little spinoffs that have nothing to do with

00:10:47.640 or are completely irrelevant to the conversation. There's a lot of straw man type arguments where

00:10:52.920 somebody will bring up a point that has literally nothing to do with the discussion at hand. And usually

00:10:58.800 that's a trick to be able to shift the conversation off topic because that party or that person feels

00:11:04.560 like maybe they're losing ground in the particular topic at hand. Look, we can have the other

00:11:09.800 conversation down the road if you want, but for now, here's what we're talking about and stay on

00:11:15.160 point. Again, let me remind you that the other party that you're communicating with needs to be able

00:11:20.920 to do these things too. And if they can't, it's perfectly acceptable to say, I'm out. Because you

00:11:27.120 recognize these people aren't being honest. They aren't staying on point. They are overly emotional

00:11:32.940 potentially. They aren't humble about learning new information. And again, what is the point of

00:11:37.140 doing this? So evaluate and critique your own performance in respectful dialogue, but also

00:11:42.580 consider how the other party is coming across. Number six, be civil. Like how often do we hear

00:11:49.120 a point that we don't agree with? And then immediately we start to undermine that person's

00:11:53.300 character by calling him dumb or you're an idiot or we mock them. Again, I've done this. I'm not

00:11:59.180 saying I'm perfect by any means. I'm saying I need this as much as anybody else, but we resort to

00:12:04.740 that. Okay. But that has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Okay. So let's actually debate

00:12:11.160 the topic. If we're talking about abortion, for example, probably you don't want to say,

00:12:17.320 oh, well, you're just a murderer. Okay. Like where do you think the conversation is going to go at that

00:12:23.280 point? Now you might believe that is murder, but let's talk about the point, the discussion.

00:12:29.340 Why is that murder? I wouldn't resort to name calling because it's just not going to help the

00:12:34.560 conversation. Same thing happened during COVID. You know, what did people who didn't agree with

00:12:43.180 people not getting vaxxed or not wearing masks, they said, you're grandma killers. Okay. Like where do

00:12:49.820 you see it going from there? It's not, the conversation is not going to get better when we

00:12:54.880 start just slinging and hurling insults at each other. Be civil. Don't attack the person, debate the

00:13:02.440 argument and the discussion points at hand. And if you have a solid discussion point, it should stand

00:13:09.140 on its own merit. You don't need to diminish or like people will see through other people.

00:13:13.880 A great example, personally, I think that did that was the new documentary called,

00:13:19.420 what is a woman by Matt Walsh. He simply asked questions and then he let those individuals

00:13:25.320 dig themselves into holes that they couldn't dig themselves out of. And all he had to do was ask

00:13:30.320 questions. He didn't have to poke at them. He didn't have to name call. He didn't have to resort

00:13:35.160 to any of that. And he let the people dig their own graves. This is the point. Be civil in your

00:13:41.480 discussions. Number seven, help your discussion partner save face, right? Because nobody likes to lose

00:13:49.280 a discussion. Nobody likes to lose a debate. Everybody that goes into a debate wants to walk

00:13:55.340 away with more credibility, more influence with that other person, or maybe people, the other people

00:14:00.260 that are engaged or sitting around the dinner table, that person wants to walk away with more

00:14:04.940 influence and credibility. You wouldn't have those points, those discussion points and conversations

00:14:09.480 if that wasn't what you were interested in. So it's a respectful thing. And it will also keep the

00:14:17.120 lines of communication open if you can help that other person save face, right? Like soften the

00:14:23.820 blow, pull the punch a little bit, if you will. Okay. You don't need to completely demolish somebody

00:14:29.520 and just run them over. Like there's people that I've had conversations with that are highly,

00:14:34.560 highly intelligent that could probably run laps around me on certain discussion points because

00:14:39.140 potentially they're more educated or they're better with their words or any number of reasons

00:14:44.500 that could probably bury me. Hey, figuratively bury me. But why would you do that? Because if you do

00:14:51.120 that, you run the risk of never being able to have a conversation with that person again.

00:14:55.640 I think about it with Jordan Peterson. He talked about, and I'm just sharing this information based

00:15:02.520 on what he talked about. I don't know the specific study, but he talked about the study that was done

00:15:06.140 with rats, I believe. And the bigger rat and the smaller rats would play. Well, the bigger rat had to let

00:15:11.760 the smaller rat win every once in a while. Otherwise, the smaller rats would just stop

00:15:16.020 playing. Well, this is the same thing when it comes to dialogue and discourse. If you railroad the other

00:15:20.920 person, if you don't give them opportunity to speak, if you mock and poke and ridicule them every time

00:15:25.700 they open their mouth, if you talk over them, you don't allot them the time they need to make their

00:15:29.780 point, they're just not going to play with you anymore. They're not going to discuss. And isn't that

00:15:34.320 what we want? Don't we want to have discussions? And don't we want to have discourse that's going to help

00:15:38.820 move the needle in the right direction? Hopefully the direction that we feel like we should take it.

00:15:43.540 Then that's going to require you to help other people save face, even by saying thank you, or,

00:15:49.260 hey, that was a good point. I don't agree with your premise, but that point you made, that was pretty

00:15:52.660 solid. Or even afterwards, a phone call, a message, a text. Hey, you know, I know we had a disagreement

00:15:58.700 in this thing, but I just really wanted to let you know that I appreciate the way that you communicated

00:16:03.160 with me. You're respectful with me. And I really enjoyed doing that. Okay. That's how you help

00:16:08.000 people save face and also maintain your influence with that other party. Let's go to number eight.

00:16:16.080 Do away with rhetorical attacks. Again, we're going to discuss the points. We're going to talk about it

00:16:22.980 reasonably. We're not going to use hyperbole. We're going to use metaphors and analogies that

00:16:29.800 actually makes sense. And we're not just going to spew off our talking points or rhetoric that

00:16:36.240 maybe has nothing to do with it, or the thing that we heard from so-and-so, but we can't really back it

00:16:40.600 up. Be thoughtful in the way that we communicate, keep to the point at hand, keep focused, and discuss

00:16:46.840 those points as they come up. We got two more, guys, two more. So number nine is, we've alluded to

00:16:53.280 this a little bit, but demand that the other person be civil as well. Demand that the other person

00:16:59.400 be civil as well. And when you say demand, what I think the author here is suggesting is not that

00:17:06.980 you command that they do that, but that there's consequences for not being civil. So in a discussion,

00:17:13.720 if somebody's not going to be civil with me, the consequence is you're not going to talk with me.

00:17:18.180 And that's what I would say. Hey, Joe, we're having this discussion. I think both of us are getting a

00:17:23.200 little heated. I'm trying to maintain civility. I don't want to resort to name-calling or personal

00:17:30.280 attacks. And I would ask that you do the same. And if you can do that, cool. I want to keep having

00:17:34.480 the conversation. But if you can't, and it keeps going in the direction that it's going right now,

00:17:38.520 I'm out. I wish you all the best, but I'm not going to engage in this. And again, be willing to

00:17:44.900 walk away and step out of a conversation if it comes to this point. Number 10 is to be understanding.

00:17:50.940 Again, this goes back to what we were saying earlier. You come to the table with a perspective,

00:17:55.980 an experience, a viewpoint, a belief, a culture. Well, so does that other party. And I don't think

00:18:01.520 that the overwhelming majority of the people you're going to have discussions with

00:18:05.640 are out to get you. I don't think they're evil. I don't think they're hateful. I don't think

00:18:10.280 they're violent. I actually have a lot of people accuse me of that. I'll make comments on social

00:18:14.660 media, for example, and they'll say that's hateful rhetoric. That's violent rhetoric. Well,

00:18:19.820 I'm not a violent person. I'm not filled with hate. I might say something you don't agree with,

00:18:24.480 but that doesn't naturally and inevitably mean it's hateful or violent or phobic. It just means

00:18:31.020 that we see it differently. And so if I expect somebody to afford me that courtesy, then I should

00:18:36.440 be willing to afford other people the same courtesy. The other little rule that I have that's helped

00:18:42.440 me is that when somebody makes a point, this goes back to emotion. And I feel myself getting

00:18:48.060 charged because of what or how they said it. I try to afford that person grace by thinking to myself,

00:18:53.120 maybe that individual is just really bad at delivery, right? How many times have you gotten,

00:18:58.000 for example, on a phone call and the other party just seems off and you think it has,

00:19:04.300 maybe it has something to do with you. Maybe they don't like you. Maybe they're mad at you.

00:19:07.800 And so you ask, Hey, is everything okay? You seem mad. Are you mad at me? And they're like,

00:19:12.000 Oh no, I only got two hours of sleep last night because we have a family emergency and I spent,

00:19:17.060 you know, six hours at the hospital with my wife. So yeah, this morning I'm really tired. Okay.

00:19:21.940 Got it. Like that's where understanding comes into play that maybe there's some reasons this person

00:19:26.980 sees it the way they see it. Maybe they're communicating the way they communicate and

00:19:30.840 maybe they're just not great at communication. None of us are amazing at it. We can all improve.

00:19:36.320 And so I try to, as best I can afford people the grace that I would hope they would afford me.

00:19:43.320 You know, oftentimes I'll post something on social media that somebody doesn't like. They'll agree

00:19:48.420 with 95, 99% of what I say in this one post out of thousands, they don't like. And they'll say,

00:19:55.840 I'm unfollowing. I'm unsubstant. I can't believe you would think that you're this and you're that.

00:20:01.340 I usually agree with everything you say, but you're just so off base. And they go wild over this.

00:20:05.760 It's like, okay, maybe just a little understanding that maybe I could have said it wrong. Maybe I

00:20:12.820 didn't mean it the way that you interpreted it. Maybe we actually do disagree. And so do we throw

00:20:18.340 the baby out with the bathwater? The understanding, I think it'll go a long way. So I really enjoyed

00:20:23.900 this article because I needed it more than anybody else. So I've, I've wrote these out. I'm just going

00:20:30.560 to put it here on my desk. And as I want to have conversations with people, specifically with

00:20:35.740 people I disagree with, because I can do these things with people I agree with. It's when I

00:20:39.320 disagree with people, I need to remember these. I'm going to add two other things right here.

00:20:44.320 I guess one, one of them we already talked about is point number, my, my number 11, this wasn't in

00:20:50.000 the article, but this is my number 11 is don't fold. Okay. You don't, you don't have to fold.

00:20:56.640 You don't have to throw in the towel. You don't have to waver. And you don't even have to compromise

00:21:01.240 in order to have a civil conversation. I think sometimes we tend to believe that if I want to

00:21:08.520 live by my convictions, then I have to be a jerk about it. And then alternatively, we believe that

00:21:14.420 if I want to be respectful and courteous and polite to another party during a discussion,

00:21:18.200 that I have to be willing to concede ground. No, you don't at all. And you shouldn't. If you believe

00:21:24.480 the way that you believe you can have a lively spirited, respectful discussion with other people

00:21:29.600 without compromising your own beliefs in your own values. And we should do that. Too many people in

00:21:35.640 society are folding and caving and buckling because other people are uncomfortable. Other people are

00:21:42.920 emotionally charged. Maybe they're going to make wild outlandish claims about you. Maybe they're even

00:21:48.280 going to threaten violence against you, but you cannot fold. Now you can be open to new information.

00:21:55.680 You can be open to rounding out your perspective in the way you see things, but you are not required

00:22:00.260 to fold in order to, in order to be a respectful and courteous discussion partner. And then the other

00:22:06.240 point I made in here that we, that we already talked about was be willing to walk away. Again, you,

00:22:11.020 you don't need to have a response to everything. Not everything is worthy of your time,

00:22:15.420 retention, energy, or words. And if somebody is not going to adhere to these things, then move on.

00:22:22.560 There are people you can have disagreements and discussions with that are willing to abide by

00:22:27.400 these rules. And those are the kinds of people we want to talk with because that's what's actually

00:22:31.520 going to implement the change that we want to see. All right, guys, I think we can all do a better

00:22:36.180 job in this department. I certainly can. So I'm going to be working on this. You guys hopefully

00:22:40.000 will see that. Um, I, I have even one thing I've tried to do is clean up my language. I'm working

00:22:44.740 on that. I'm not perfect, but I am trying to, uh, remove some swear words from my, uh, my rhetoric

00:22:51.940 because I think that's another important thing. So, um, I'm working on that as well. So I have plenty

00:22:57.320 of room to improve. I'm going to keep working on it. I would pick one to two to three to four of these

00:23:01.200 things that you can work on that you can improve. Cause maybe there's a couple of points in here that

00:23:05.280 really, really impact you take those work on one this week, work on another one next week and so

00:23:10.660 on and so forth. And let's discuss these important topics in a respectful, polite, courteous way so

00:23:17.080 that we can build up that ultimate influence, credibility, and authority. Uh, with that guys,

00:23:22.180 I'm going to sign out again, a reminder, we have our legacy experience, September 22nd through the 25th.

00:23:27.400 Uh, that's on my property here in Maine. And, uh, that's for boys between the ages of eight to 15 with

00:23:33.220 their fathers or stepfathers, adopted fathers, foster fathers, uh, or maybe their uncle. Uh,

00:23:39.020 maybe it's a family member, a grandfather, uh, or, or some sort of a mentor who has the capacity

00:23:44.820 and the role where it's appropriate to do that. We'd love to have you out order of man.com slash

00:23:49.100 legacy. All right, you guys, I'll be back next week until then go out there, take action and become

00:23:54.520 the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take

00:23:59.820 charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

00:24:04.460 at order of man.com.

Order of Man - June 17, 2022

10 Rules for Respectful Discussion ｜ FRIDAY FIELD NOTES

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