103： A Practical Approach to Improving Your Health ｜ Ben Greenfield
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Summary
New York Times bestselling author Ben Greenfield shares with us how to carve out the time for our health, what key metrics we should be tracking, a powerful mindset each of us can implement, and how to take a more practical approach to controlling your health.
Transcript
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You're busy, I'm busy, we've got so much going on, and if you're anything like me,
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it seems that taking care of my health is the easiest thing for me to push to the back burner.
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My guest today, New York Times bestselling author Ben Greenfield,
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shares with us how to carve out the time for our health, what key metrics we should be tracking,
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a powerful mindset each of us can implement, and how to take a more practical approach to
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controlling your health. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears
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and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time,
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every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.
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This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,
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you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,
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and I am the host and founder of Order of Man. I hope all is going well for you as you have by now
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probably kicked off your week. Exciting news for us at Order of Man this week and this morning.
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We have officially sold out of the uprising. I say that's exciting because you will not have to
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hear me talk about it, at least for the next couple of months. We have already started planning a new
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event. This event is going to be for the fall. It's actually going to be a father-son event. I'm
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not going to give you all of the information right now, but I want you to stay tuned for the details on
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a father-son event that we're going to be doing in the fall. And also, while we're at it,
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speaking of those details, this interview is packed with details. So, if you want the specifics,
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the links, the things that we talk about for this show, you can do that and get that information
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at orderofman.com slash 103. And then also, if you would, if you haven't already done this,
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I know there's a lot of guys that listen to this show that have not done this yet.
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Make sure you request access to our closed Facebook group. I think we've got close to 24,000
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men in that group. We grow by about 1,000 per week. All of us are working on improving our lives,
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and you can do that at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman. And one last announcement
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before I introduce you to my guest today, I wanted to mention our show sponsor. You haven't really
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that's orderofman.com slash 511, as in 511. Now, let me introduce you to my guest today,
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Mr. Ben Greenfield. I know a lot of you guys know him. He is a beast when it comes to the physical
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events that he's participated in. I actually ran across him and his work as I've done my own
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obstacle course, races, my endurance event. I've told you a little bit about that. I can tell you
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that this is a guy who really does put his money where his mouth is. He's a New York Times bestselling
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author. But as you'll hear in this interview, he's also somebody who's willing to do as much as he
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talks about others doing. He considers himself to be a guinea pig when it comes to health and
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nutrition, sleep, fitness, you name it. You're going to hear about some of his experimentations
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in this conversation. And he takes an extremely practical approach to staying on top of his
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health goals. In fact, as we were conducting this conversation, this interview, he was walking
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on a treadmill and he's here to share with you how some of that practical approach to his health goals
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will help you become more practical with yours. Ben, what's going on? Thanks for joining me on the
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show today. What is going on? I'm sipping my little bottle of Perrier here. My vice of choice. I know
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it's horrible. I could be doing like weed and beer, but just Perrier and walking on my treadmill,
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talking to you. Good. Well, I'm glad you're here, man. I know this has been a little bit in the works
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and I've followed you for some time now. So anxious to have our conversation about health and how to be
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healthier for men. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. I want to talk with you
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specifically about this though. I don't buy it. No, I won't. I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll be okay.
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I think I'll survive. I want to talk with you about idea of practicality. And I know this is
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something that's, that's big for you because I think what a lot of guys see, especially those
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who maybe even want to just start getting off the couch, look at some of these guys and think,
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oh, I have to take this to the ultimate extreme, or I just have to stay here. And the practicality
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side of it, I think falls or sneaks through the cracks. What are your thoughts about that?
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What do you mean the practicality? The ability to stay healthy, live a healthy lifestyle,
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but not take it to the obsessive extreme. Because I think a lot of guys fear they just
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don't have the time and attention to be able to do that. You don't need much time. I mean,
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like I'm, I'm walking, talking to you. I'll probably walk by noon today. What is it like 11?
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I'll walk like 20,000 steps, just talking on the phone, doing my work. Right. Or, you know,
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even if I don't have access to a treadmill or like a treadmill workstation,
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which is really not that expensive to build, I've got a kettlebell in my office. I got a heavy bag
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over here that I can hit. I got a foam roller. I can pretty much kind of like move and jive and shake
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all day long. And by the time I get to the end of the day, doing some kind of an epic workout
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or doing some kind of an epic workout at the beginning of the day, it's an option, right?
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It's like the icing on the cake. If I do want to say like go to a Spartan race or a marathon or
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triathlon or something like that, but it's not that hard to just like stay in shape all day long
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while you're at your office. It's, uh, you know, I, I have some clients I've worked with who just go
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and talk to their bosses and, and they tell them, Hey, look, I want to toss a few things in my cubicle.
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Can I throw like a Veridesk or something like that on my desk? Do you mind if I bring one of these
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little like woodway treadmills in, or just like toss a kettlebell under my desk, do some swings every now and
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again? I mean, stuff like that, when it comes to practicality, really, that's the key is not
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getting overwhelmed by feeling like you have to step into some kind of a box or a gym and do like
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a prescribed exercise program. So, so when it comes to practicality, I mean, that that's, that's one
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thing from an exercise standpoint, from a nutrition standpoint, you know, again, I think, you know,
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when I get, I get, it's kind of funny, you know, I'm like a blogger and a podcaster in the health
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industry. So I'll get like cookbooks sent to my house fricking every day. I mean, like I got
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coming out the yin yang and, and you know, you go through some of these cookbooks or some of these
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diet books and like half the book is recipes, right? And it can just be incredibly intimidating
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because like, Oh, I want to start this new diet, but there's like a hundred new recipes I have to
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learn. Frankly, like the, the most successful people I talk to, we're eating like the same thing
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every day, almost every meal or variants of the same thing. Like I have just like my go-to smoothie
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and my go-to lunchtime salad and, you know, my, and my go-to dinner of some kind of roasted
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vegetables and meats. And it's kind of like rinse, wash and repeat. And I mean, it's all stuff that
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tastes good. It's not like I'm eating cardboard or sipping like man in a can out of a, out of a
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shaker cup. But at the same time, like from a practical standpoint, it just works. It doesn't
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have to be that complex. Now, granted there is kind of like this, this, uh, you know,
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it's like an Ayurvedic medical concept. I was talking with a guy about this on my podcast
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recently of like eating, um, in season, right? So in the winter, yeah, I'll, I'll take my normal
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salad and I'll just like dump it in a big pot with some broth and heat it up. Right. With, with,
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and, and so I'll have more like a stew or a soup in the winter.
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Yeah. More like a cold salad in the summer, in the spring, or, or, you know, sometimes
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for example, you know, in the spring or the summer, like I'm, I'm doing, you know, with
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dinner or, you know, in the morning smoothie, a little bit more fruit, right? Like some berries
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or some, some peaches, stuff like that. You know, when, when, when the body's able to handle
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those more in the warm summer months or the spring months, but, you know, ultimately, you
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know, those are just two examples of practicality. I mean, it's really, it's really about
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simplifying more than making things super complex. And then also, you know, to close the loop
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on this. Yeah. There are all like these biohacks out there. Like I'm constantly, you know, on
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my blog or my podcast talking about, you know, like laser lights that you hook up to your
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head to increase nitric oxide production inside your skull or colostrum or, you know, some kind
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of other, you know, liposomal glutathione or something like that. And people are like, Oh,
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how do you keep track of all this? Frankly, that kind of stuff, it's like, it just becomes
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habit. It becomes routine, right? So when I'm reading in my bed at night, it's super sexy.
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I reach over and I put my little laser light cap on while I'm reading. Uh, unless my wife
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and I are going to get it on, in which case I try to do something more sexy, like go put
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on my Darth Vader underwear. But, but ultimately, you know, it's not like I think about that
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and plan for it and have to write it down. It's just like there. And I just put it on
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and do it. A lot of this stuff, you know, once, once it becomes part of your life, it's
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like automatic, it's habitual. It's like, you know, brushing your teeth. I can remember
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when I was a kid, I still remember like brushing my teeth was like something I had to remember
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to do. Right. And it was like, I had to go out of my way to do it. Now I just like subconsciously
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reach for the toothbrush. Cause I've been doing it for like 30 years, you know, reach for
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the toothbrush, put the toothpaste on. It's not like I complain at the end of the day,
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taking care of my teeth is so complex, right? You just brush your teeth.
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Right. Right. That's kind of my perspective on that.
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Well, and I imagine too, I mean, you're, you're building upon a foundation, right? And I think
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a lot of the guys that maybe are just getting off the couch or trying to even get back in
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shape from being out of shape for several years, you know, listen to somebody and might think,
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oh, you have to start with all this complex stuff when in all reality is just doing the
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basics very, very well. And then building upon that. Correct.
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Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's about creating systems, habits, routines. Um, and you know,
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it's, it's the way that I do it. So, you know, I introduce new things a lot, you know, there,
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there's some new exercise, some new workout, some new computer programs, some new recipes,
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some new supplement, whatever. If I, if I'm, if I'm trying out some new thing or some variation,
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when I say new recipe, usually all that means is like, there's some new superfood I found that I
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want to put into an existing recipe. I already have like recently, recently, you know, I discovered
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fennel, like fennel seeds is a really good digestif. So it's not like I went and found
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some brand new complex recipe for fennel seeds. I just started, you know, ordering them and putting
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it on my salad and making sure you could, you could just like eat them raw and they were still
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absorbable. Um, but anytime I find something like that, uh, typically what I do is I have an Evernote
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document set up for each day of the week or like Monday through Sunday. And I know my general
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activities that I do on Monday or like Monday is a day where I do some strength training.
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Monday is a day that I'll generally like say for, for example, for podcasts, right? So if somebody
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reaches out to me and wants to do a podcast interview, there's like specific days of the
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week, like a Monday or a Wednesday that'll do podcast interviews. And like Fridays and Saturdays
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are the days that, that I'll write. Tuesdays are the day that I'll shoot video, right? So if somebody
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wants to do a video or wants me to shoot a video or have an idea for a video, I don't just like sit
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down and do it right away and put it on some never ending checklist. I have an actual bucket
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that goes into. And it's the same thing when I find something new that I want to do, I choose a day
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that I'm going to try that new thing and I write it down and try it. And then if it turns out to be
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something that I want to implement and make a part of my life, I mean, it sounds kind of simple and
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stupid, but what I do is I use that little reminders feature, you know, on the, on the phone that
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also syncs with your computer, by the way, if you've got like a, you know, iOS setup or whatever,
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so it'll pop up on your computer and, or pop up on your phone. It'll just remind you, for example,
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put fennel seeds on your salad today. You do that for like, you know, people say 28 days or 30 days
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is the time to create a habit. It's not even that long. You do that for like a week and you don't
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have to remember to put like fennel seeds on your salad anymore. You just start doing it. And I mean,
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like as simple and stupid as that sounds like that's kind of my method is I've got the Evernote for
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each day. And then I've got that little reminder app. Yeah. It sounds like it's just a process
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of experimentation, correct? You mean experimentation to see what, what works for
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your body or? Right. Because I imagine everybody's a little bit different too. I mean, what works for
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you, the timing that works for you, the days that work for you, what you put in your body is going
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to be slightly different than what it's going to be for me. Yeah. And, and for that, I mean, you know,
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a lot of people are just like, Oh, listen to your body, see how it feels. All I do is, is like for
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five minutes every morning I roll over, I put a heart rate monitor on. Cause like in the morning I do a
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little bit of like light reading in bed and some journaling before I get out of bed and go like,
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you know, run away from the lion that's jumping out from the email inbox and my computer.
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You got to avoid that man. Exactly. Especially in the morning. So I journal,
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well, I'm journaling, I have this heart rate monitor hooked up and I just do what's called
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an HRV measurement, which is a, that's heart rate variability. It's a measurement of your nervous
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system. And a lot of times, like if that's low, it means that you are over-trained or you're beat up
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or you're under-recovered or something you did the day before isn't really agreeing with your nervous
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system. So I'm, I'm about like listening to your body, but I'm, I also like to do like a little
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bit of quantification like that. The other thing that I do is I wear, I wear a ring while I sleep
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and it collects my heart rate data while I'm asleep. And I can wake up and just like take a
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super quick glance. I'm not like super anal, like out there with a spreadsheet and my glasses and my
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pencil, like obsessing over the data, but I take a quick glance and it's like if my heart rate's like
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massive through the night or I had like no REM sleep or something like that, then I know that,
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Hey, that, that might not have been whatever a thing I, whatever new thing I did yesterday,
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right? My body isn't liking like perfect example is, um, have you ever heard of, of, uh, kratom?
00:14:13.740
Uh, I haven't. No. Okay. So kratom is like this drug that the U S government just tried to schedule
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as like a class one controlled substance, but it's just like an herb, right? It's a member.
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I believe it's a member of either the chocolate or the coffee family. I don't remember, but it's
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kind of like a bitter alkaloid based powder. And it's got, it, it, uh, traditionally has been used
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to replace, uh, like opioids and to even wean people off addiction of things to things like
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alcohol and opioids. So it's a painkiller. And I threw on my back doing some gymnastics the other day
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and I had never taken kratom before, but my friend whose house I was staying at, uh, had like,
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like a few bags of, of kratom, like powdered kratom in his kitchen. So I asked if I could,
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if I could try it. Cause I was kind of desperate to just like do something to kill my back pain.
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So I took it at like two o'clock in the afternoon and not only did my back pain disappear, but I felt
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freaking like fantastic the rest of the day. Amazing. And you know, so, so that's an example of
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something that I put into my body that helped me to feel good. And then I looked at my heart rate
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and my sleep the next day and my, like my rapid eye movement sleep was off the charts and I had
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like awesome lucid dreaming and my heart rate variability was really high. And you know,
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that's, that's where I know, Hey, not only did I feel good on this thing, but it appears that it,
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it didn't interfere at all with things like sleep and nervous system. And in fact, help that. So
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that's where I'll check the box and be like, okay, next time I hurt something, this would be
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something acceptable to, to put into my body. And it's not like I rush off and buy a whole bunch and
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start taking that every day. But it's like, that's another tiny little tool that I added to
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my Swiss army knife or to my toolbox that I know works for me. And I mean, you, you know,
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you go through life doing things like that and eventually you develop your protocols and your
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medicine cabinet and your exercise routines and everything accordingly. But it's a matter of kind
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of like intelligently moving through life and you know, every new chapter in, in your book of life
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that you turn over, you're just a little bit more progressed in terms of your, your evolution as a
00:16:13.840
complete human being. Well, so what other metrics are you measuring or would you say are maybe even
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critical metrics that we should be measuring? You talk about heart rate variability, you talk about
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REM sleep, what other metrics should we be looking at? Sure. So the main things I do are I, I test my
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gut via what's called like a three day, it's a three day stool panel, more or less loop into the
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equivalent of a, of a hot dog tray that gets sent to your house and store that for, for three days,
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doing it each day. It goes in these little bottles and then you ship it via the, the FedEx prepaid
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label that comes along with it. And on each day you keep it in the refrigerator and tell your kids
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or your wife or your loved one or anyone who happens to be in the house, that is not food.
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That is my crap. Uh, but you send it off and it tells you like parasites, yeast, fungus, bacterial
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balance, a whole bunch of interesting things about what's going on in your gut. And so I, I do that
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once a year, occasionally when I've traveled somewhere really gnarly, like, you know, I used to do a
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triathlons in Thailand, right? Where I'd swim in this nasty, gnarly water. And I inevitably always
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come back with, with like, my stomach would just not be acting normally. So a lot of times when I'll
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run a test like that, when I've been somewhere gnarly and find out, you know, I've got whatever
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H pylori or some kind of an amoeba or, you know, need to do like a, that's some kind of an herbal
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cleanse. But it's also just really useful. Like if you're somebody who ever gets, you know, constipation
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or diarrhea or bloating, you don't know what causes it. Like it's, it's useful. I think to
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do that test just like once a year as a really good way to do like a check-in on the gut. So
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that's one thing I'll do. Another one that's just like a once in a lifetime test would be a DNA test,
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right? Where, and this is saliva, right? You drip saliva into a tube. I found that that's sniffing a
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jar of peanut butter does it for me, right? When the tube arrives in my house, I sniff the peanut
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butter and that just starts salivating like crazy.
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Yeah, exactly. So, um, you send that off and you get information back, you know, usually
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like 23andMe is a company that will do this and you'll find out, you know, some fascinating
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things about your ancestry, but then also really interesting anecdotes like how well you metabolize
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B vitamins or whether you're a fast or a slow coffee metabolizer or, you know, what your,
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your addictive potential for something like, like say nicotine or, you know, all these really
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interesting things that, you know, like I found out I had a really higher than normal risk for
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prostate cancer, right? So when I found that out, I started just every single day with my salad. I'll
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include like some fresh raw tomatoes for the lycopene content, which helps with, with, with, uh, your,
00:18:40.620
your prostate specific antigen and your prostate health. And so it helps you make little health
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decisions like that too. Or, or I also, I also tested, uh, showing that, that my genetics indicated I
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have a higher than normal risk for type two diabetes. So I go out of my way to do things that
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stabilize blood sugar levels, right? Like I keep some apple cider vinegar around and I have a little
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bit of that in water when I wake up and I do like some, some Ceylon cinnamon, which helps to lower
00:19:04.640
blood sugar if you have it before you eat like a carbohydrate dense meal. So, you know, little
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things like that. I'm a, I'm a big fan of doing like at least once in a lifetime, a DNA test, which
00:19:15.960
is a saliva test. And then probably the other, the other two things that I quantify, one would be blood,
00:19:21.380
right? We live in an era now where you can get like a complete blood panel for anywhere between
00:19:26.960
500 and a thousand dollars. It would have cost like 10,000 plus dollars at the, the Princeton
00:19:31.440
longevity Institute or something like that 10 years ago. So, and you can order this kind of stuff
00:19:37.020
practically, you know, to your own house or, you know, what's called a requisition form that you
00:19:42.000
wander into a local lab. It was like three labs within five miles of my house. If I just use like
00:19:47.560
the search function on one of these websites, like wellness FX or, or direct lab. So you bring
00:19:52.700
the form in, they draw the blood. And within two weeks you get a PDF of like every little thing
00:19:57.700
from vitamin D to testosterone to thyroid. So that, that's one, like I'm because I'm guinea
00:20:03.880
picking so much and I'm like a health blogger, I'll do something like that. And you know,
00:20:09.260
I, I, my recommendation is like to do something like that once a year, but I'll do something like
00:20:13.560
that, like four to five times a year, just cause I'm constantly kind of like throwing all sorts
00:20:16.580
of new things in my body. I like to just keep a, keep a running tally, but I don't think any,
00:20:20.900
everybody needs to do that. But like once a year, that's prudent. And then the last one is to like,
00:20:27.180
when you get your blood tested, that's a snapshot of what's going on. Let's, let's take cortisol,
00:20:32.940
for example, right? If you get your blood tested and you get a test in the morning, which is usually
00:20:37.060
what you do. Cause you, you test when you're in like a fasted state, it shows your cortisol in the
00:20:41.600
morning, but it doesn't show what's happening with your cortisol all day long or what's happening
00:20:45.240
with your testosterone all day long. Cause hormones specifically are things that fluctuate all day
00:20:49.440
long and they're supposed to fluctuate in specific patterns and doing like a one-time blood test
00:20:53.840
doesn't show that. So the other thing I recommend, you know, once a year or like if you're an athlete
00:20:59.260
and you're feeling beat up, you know, once, you know, it could be just once every few years that
00:21:03.480
you do something like this, but it's called, um, it's a urine test. I used to recommend like a saliva
00:21:08.580
test for hormones, but now the urine test is better. There's one called a Dutch test.
00:21:12.380
I did a whole podcast about it on my show and like how it works and stuff. But basically it just gives
00:21:18.660
you everything, like every hormone, like cortisol and testosterone and like freaking melatonin and
00:21:23.960
all this stuff. But you pee and every time you pee, you just pee on a strip, right? Like five times
00:21:29.380
during a 24 hour cycle. When you do pee, you just make sure you pee on a strip and then you just send
00:21:34.800
these strips in. And then that's exactly what is called a dried urine test. So they analyze your urine
00:21:39.460
for hormones because you actually dump most of your hormone metabolites out in your urine.
00:21:44.580
And so, so those are, those are the biggies that I measure is I do the sleep with my ring
00:21:48.780
and then I do the, the little five minute measurement. When I get up, I test my gut once a year,
00:21:56.760
do my blood, you know, a handful of times, do the saliva test once in a lifetime. And then every once in a
00:22:02.740
while, especially if you're an athlete, do that, do that hormone test. And those are like the main
00:22:06.480
forms of self-quantification that I'll use to keep a running tally on my body.
00:22:11.240
Right. And then you can just take that information and act accordingly. What do you know the,
00:22:14.380
the ring that you wear? Do you know what that is? And I can make sure we, we link that up in the
00:22:17.580
show notes for the guys if they're interested. Yeah. I wrote a few articles on it and I even did
00:22:21.440
a podcast with a guy who invented it. I discovered it at like a biohacking conference I was speaking at
00:22:26.480
in Finland. It's called the Aura and O-U-R-A. The reason I like it is like the Fitbit and the
00:22:32.720
Jawbone, a lot of these devices, they constantly transmit a Bluetooth signal.
00:22:36.480
Right. They're constantly like pinging and looking for a phone specifically.
00:22:39.780
And they've shown that, that like constant Bluetooth radiation can cause things like DNA
00:22:43.720
damage and blood brain barrier leakage and rats and some things that make me a little bit reticent
00:22:49.220
to just like constantly have a signal transmitting in my body. So that's why I wear the ring because
00:22:53.800
it has like a built-in internal computer that allows you to just like have it in airplane mode.
00:23:00.020
And then when you decide you want to sync the data to your phone, you could turn it like the
00:23:04.080
airplane mode off, sync it, and then put it back in airplane mode. So you're not constantly
00:23:08.320
irradiating your body, but it's still collecting data about your body.
00:23:13.480
Gentlemen, just a quick break for an introduction to the Iron Council. This is our exclusive
00:23:17.620
mastermind. If you have not already heard of it, it's designed for men like you
00:23:21.060
who are looking for the tools and the resources to take their lives to the next level. So we've got
00:23:25.740
the guidance, the direction, and the platform to help you level up in all areas of your life.
00:23:30.500
But specifically, we cover four major components. Condition, which is your overall health and the
00:23:35.560
conversation that we're having today. Calibration, which is about getting right with your mind and
00:23:40.040
your soul. Connection, which is about building deep relationships with the people you care about.
00:23:45.100
And contribution, which is focused on helping you add value in this world so you can make more
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money and be more impactful. So if you're interested in connecting with other like-minded men,
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getting some guidance from me and the rest of the gentlemen inside the council who have
00:23:58.500
figured some of this stuff out, join us. You'll get the tools, the guidance, the direction,
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the resources, maybe even the kick in the pants that you need to help you crush your biggest
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objectives this year. You can learn more and join us at order of man.com slash iron council.
00:24:12.820
Now let me get back to my conversation with Ben.
00:24:17.080
Right. Yeah. I think I actually heard Dave Asprey talk about this. He talked about his cell phone
00:24:21.360
being in his pocket and how his bone density had actually either reduced or changed in the,
00:24:26.880
in the same leg where his phone was. So I never thought about it like that, but it sounded like
00:24:31.280
it's more and more serious too. Oh yeah. Like your bones, your, your sperm count,
00:24:35.080
the temperature up by your head. If you're using it in your head. I mean like, yeah,
00:24:38.760
I'm pretty careful with, with stuff like that. Interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about maybe shift
00:24:43.480
over to even the mindset. I think there's a lot of guys out there who actually want to improve their
00:24:49.460
fitness. They want to improve their health. And I think they're having a very difficult time
00:24:53.660
getting started or just getting over that initial hurdle. And how do you get your mind right when it
00:24:58.220
comes to getting, getting going? I mean, honestly, the way that I do it is I write it down.
00:25:03.120
We have this weird human, uh, mechanism to where something that gets written down is actually
00:25:10.580
something that we accomplish. And if you want to take that one step further on that, which is
00:25:14.680
measured is managed, right? So if let's say you want to start into a workout routine, I'll do this
00:25:20.420
because I just kind of changed up the, my workout routine. So on Sunday night before the week starts,
00:25:26.480
I sit down and I make sure that I've written down what the actual plan is for each day of that week.
00:25:31.560
So I'm never waking up out of bed. I'm never like finishing the end of the day and having to engage
00:25:37.020
in decision-making fatigue, right? Like, what am I going to do with the workout today or the gym
00:25:41.880
today? Or, you know, when I wake up, like, should I work out today? Should I not work out? It's just
00:25:47.600
like all written down there for me. So all I have to do is just go into automatic mode
00:25:51.000
and do what is written down right there. And then we just talked about measuring, right? So if you're
00:25:56.960
measuring as you do it, that's all that much more motivational, right? If you're glancing at your
00:26:01.500
sleep cycles, if you're glancing at your steps, if you're glancing at your, you know, your, your
00:26:06.440
nervous system, things like that, it sucks you into becoming a little bit more committed to what it
00:26:12.720
is that you're doing. So I write stuff down and then I measure it. And those are really like,
00:26:17.260
if I'm not writing anything down, if I'm not measuring, typically stuff's not getting done.
00:26:21.020
And then the final key that I use is I always have something on the horizon that scares me a
00:26:26.700
little bit. And that provides me with some extrinsic motivation. So I'm always like signed
00:26:31.720
up for some kind of like, you know, whether it's a spearfishing trip or a hunt or a triathlon or,
00:26:37.960
uh, uh, an obstacle course race, or like my wife and I are signed up right now for a mixed doubles
00:26:43.400
tennis tournament in a couple of weeks. So I always have something I'm, um, I'm signed up for
00:26:47.980
that, that makes me get out of bed to do what it is that I need to do or finish up the day
00:26:54.560
and not just like plop on the couch and watch Hulu or whatever, because I know I have that thing
00:26:59.820
coming up that is going to be really uncomfortable and even more scary and embarrassing if I'm not
00:27:05.140
prepared for it. So I pretty much always have something coming up on the calendar that I got to be
00:27:10.900
ready for. That's a great idea. I know I've personally done that. And we talked briefly
00:27:14.860
about the Agogi and that is one thing I did that I was completely inadequately prepared for
00:27:20.540
when I signed up, but I was not going to fail when I got that done. So it really forced me to
00:27:25.800
get out of bed and do exactly what I knew I should be doing all along. Right. What's the, uh, what's
00:27:30.720
the craziest physical experience, I guess you'd say for lack of a better term that you've been
00:27:35.220
able to participate in? Uh, it's always changing because I'm always doing something new,
00:27:39.920
probably the hardest one was the Navy SEAL Kokoro thing. It was like the Navy SEAL
00:27:43.760
kind of like a week for civilians. Yeah. Mark Devine's Kokoro. That was pretty tough. I mean,
00:27:48.520
it's like 24 mile night hikes followed by like getting thrust into the ocean for like eight hours
00:27:55.620
in a row until you're hypothermic. And then you'd get out and you go to like CrossFit Murph with a 50
00:28:00.840
pound pack on it. Just like, it's just a beat down the whole time with absolutely no rest,
00:28:05.160
no recovery. And you really, you get to see what it feels like to be a Navy SEAL or what it would feel
00:28:11.600
like to, to train like the world's elite warriors, just the taste of it, you know, just beats you up
00:28:16.620
and spits you out. And that, that was a pretty hard event. You know, I, uh, I interviewed Mark
00:28:21.060
Devine on my podcast later on about it and wrote some follow-up articles about it. But I would say,
00:28:26.560
I would say that was tough. You mentioned the Egoji, the one that was 38 degrees below zero in Vermont,
00:28:32.420
where, you know, if you pulled on your pants to take a crap, your butt cheeks get frostbite.
00:28:37.640
You know, that we had to like prepare frozen fish, just sticking up out of the snow to even
00:28:43.340
eat during that race. And like that, you know, that it was just crazy, crazy cold. That was
00:28:48.700
another pretty tough one. Um, and then the final one that comes to mind, just fricking Ironman Hawaii,
00:28:54.700
dude. I did that race six times and it's just so hot. And because it's like the world championships
00:29:00.560
of triathlon, everybody there is so fast, right? The whole field moves fast. So there's no option
00:29:05.060
to just kind of like take your time through the race. I mean, it's, that one's another one,
00:29:09.100
you know, the, the rubber on the bottom of your shoes is melting and it's hot and you're covered
00:29:13.160
in salt water. So everything's chafing and, uh, you know, and you're just, you're dried up like a,
00:29:18.540
like a raisin with rhabdomyolysis at the end of that thing, you know, where you're like peeing
00:29:23.220
Coca-Cola color. And it's just like, it beats you up and spits you out. And, you know,
00:29:28.040
for a couple of weeks, you just, your body's just reeling after that thing.
00:29:31.260
I don't argue that any of that stuff's healthy, but you know, it's a good way to grow some hair
00:29:34.440
on your chest. I mean, let's talk about the takeaways. You talk about growing hair on your
00:29:37.820
chest, but, but realistically, I mean, what are, what are your takeaways when you do events like
00:29:41.560
this? Because you keep going back for more. And so I'm really curious about what that draws and
00:29:45.780
then some of the lessons that you're extracting from this. Well, it makes you a stronger version of
00:29:49.660
yourself. It makes you a, an inspiration to people who maybe are just in couch potato mode,
00:29:55.300
but that, you know, they see you doing something like that and it inspires them to go out and do a,
00:29:58.460
do a 5k or, you know, just, just get up and take better care of their bodies. Ironically,
00:30:03.980
as you're out there beating your body to shreds, you're inspiring somebody to just like get up and
00:30:07.940
start to eat healthy. You know, it's a way to increase your tolerance or your threshold for
00:30:13.680
discomfort, for stress, to really make yourself a little bit more anti-fragile, to scratch that
00:30:19.600
primal itch to actually go out and experience something very much like war or battle or slaying
00:30:25.820
a dragon or climbing a mountain, you know, your own personal Mount Everest. There's a lot of kind
00:30:31.440
of like built in human characteristics that something like that satisfies when it comes to our craving to
00:30:37.520
just like get out of the office, right. And go experience life, you know, in a little bit more
00:30:42.360
primal way. And, uh, you know, for, for me, part of it too is like my business is to figure out how
00:30:49.560
to get the most out of the human body and brain and to tell other people about it. In order for me to
00:30:54.360
do that, sometimes I need to take the human body and brain to their absolute limits, right. To the,
00:31:00.220
to the brink of exhaustion or, you know, danger or complete burnout. And then tell people what works
00:31:08.020
and what doesn't when it comes to being able to string the body through something like that.
00:31:11.620
Has there been a moment where you were genuinely scared for your health?
00:31:16.000
Nah, I mean, not, I mean, you always know you're beating yourself up and it's going to really hurt
00:31:19.940
for a few weeks after, you know, when you're spraying your ankle and you still have 20 miles
00:31:23.120
to go or, you know, I've been in some situations where I've gotten really hypothermic and super
00:31:28.320
cold and you just keep reminding yourself like you'll pass up before you die. You'll pass up before
00:31:32.800
you die. There's, there's an ambulance there. So like I've never, I've never found myself in a
00:31:38.180
situation where I'm just stranded out in the middle of nowhere with nobody knowing
00:31:41.560
where I am and I'm, you know, stuck in the cold or something like that. I, I fortunately
00:31:45.060
have not had to deal with that. Um, so, so no, I've, I've never, I've never really been
00:31:49.600
in a situation where I really, truly thought I was going to die. I've just been in situations
00:31:54.300
with, with extreme discomfort, right? Like, like getting GRD in Thailand and having to do
00:31:59.920
a race while, you know, blowing poo out my backside and stopping in farmer's fields to,
00:32:04.420
to wash and rinse and, you know, just being again, shriveled up like a raisin, you know,
00:32:08.360
stopping off in the airport in Korea for IVs on the way home, you know, all this stuff to,
00:32:12.420
to nurse you back to life. But I mean, that, that's probably one advantage that I have is
00:32:16.520
I have a master's degree in human physiology and, uh, have studied biochemistry and microbiology
00:32:22.620
and anatomy and physiology just intensively for a very long time. That was my formal education
00:32:28.960
in college. So I kind of know like, like what it takes to kill a human being. And generally when I'm
00:32:34.440
in those types of situations, I do have that knowledge to know that most of what I'm doing
00:32:38.360
is really not something that's going to kill me. It's just going to kind of deplete the body for a
00:32:42.380
little while. And maybe even along those lines, you talk about not being alone. What, what does your
00:32:46.360
support team even look like? Are you training with a partner? Do you do these events with other
00:32:50.900
people? I'm really curious about that support team for you. No, I don't really train with a
00:32:54.980
partner or train with a team or go to a box or go to a gym or anything like that. Cause I'm just
00:32:58.840
busy. So all my training's at the drop of a hat, right? Like if I, if I've got a one hour opening
00:33:03.960
and a one hour window during the day, I'm not going to spend 10 minutes each way driving to the gym,
00:33:09.380
five minutes tapping my fingers, waiting for my workout partner, you know, and then another 10 minutes,
00:33:14.180
like socializing after the workout is done. I get in, get out quick, get it done. So, you know,
00:33:19.820
most of my training is done completely alone, which I like, you know, I'm kind of introverted
00:33:23.820
anyway, so I don't, I don't mind. That's the way I always have been. Right. I just dig going,
00:33:27.420
you know, I'll go on a three hour hike by myself and just enjoy life. Right. Uh, and then in terms
00:33:32.720
of what, you know, during these events, I mean, everything I just talked about, like there's
00:33:35.940
always support crew there. Like there's always somewhere there, there's an ambulance or there's
00:33:39.220
a hospital or there's a medical crew. It's pretty seldom that, you know, unless it's like a water
00:33:44.300
deal where people will, you know, pass out during a triathlon and die during the swim
00:33:48.900
portion just cause you, you know, people don't see it. That's, that's pretty rare, but in most
00:33:53.640
cases, somebody is always around to be able to more or less, you know, catch you when you fall
00:33:58.560
in any of these events that are organized. And even when I'm out hunting, you know, with, with,
00:34:03.840
you know, a guide or some friends who are hunting, like you still, you've got, you've got radios,
00:34:09.140
you've got walkie talkies, even if you're out in the middle of nowhere, somebody has a satellite
00:34:12.540
radio to be able to call in a helicopter if you need it. So now you're never like completely forsaken
00:34:18.140
it alone. What are some of the, maybe some, some missteps that you see people taking as they are
00:34:23.700
embarking on getting into better shape, getting their mindset, right? Their nutrition, all of
00:34:27.280
this stuff. Are there some common pitfalls that we need to make sure we avoid? The, the main thing
00:34:31.720
in terms of pitfalls is, uh, I guess the one, the one biggest thing that I see over and over again
00:34:37.280
is that all or nothing approach, right? Like I didn't get my, my yoga and my sauna and my cold shower
00:34:43.280
and my high intensity interval training or weight training session in today. And, and so I'm just
00:34:49.900
going to throw up my hands and go watch TV. Whereas you could say, I'm going to do a four
00:34:55.460
minute to bat a set of burpees, right? Which would be 20 seconds on 10 seconds off as much as you can
00:35:00.680
squeeze into four minutes. And you would be surprised at how much those little tiny things to
00:35:05.840
make your body better still do the trick. And so, yeah, I mean, I'll have some days where I'm super
00:35:11.140
busy and I just tell myself, you know what, screw it. Workout's not going to happen today. You know,
00:35:15.700
just about everything I have planned for that is not going to happen, but you know what? I can do
00:35:18.940
a hundred jumping jacks at the end of each hour and string myself through this day. And you know
00:35:23.280
what? That's better than nothing. So I would say the biggest pitfall is the, the all or nothing
00:35:27.560
approach, especially if people want to like eat super healthy. It's like, you know, whatever you're
00:35:32.260
super duper busy. You find yourself at Subway, right? Like make lemonade out of lemons, you know,
00:35:38.520
order, order the coolest sandwich you like, toss out the bread, eat it and consider that day to be
00:35:45.420
a day where you might do a little bit of intermittent fasting, right? So, I mean, there's,
00:35:48.700
there's always workarounds. It never had any, you know, and that would be as opposed to you being
00:35:52.880
able to get to whole foods and make yourself your giant kale salad with all the superfoods on it,
00:35:56.720
blah, blah, blah. It's like, sometimes you just kind of roll with the punches and, and knowing that
00:36:01.280
that's okay, I think is going to help overcome these, you know, typical pitfalls.
00:36:05.940
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And one of the things that I've seen a lot of guys too is,
00:36:08.960
is they'll compound the problem, right? So they'll, they'll get behind and then they'll start stacking
00:36:14.240
these days of getting behind day after day after day. And then eventually they're just out of the
00:36:18.420
habit and then three years pass and they're realizing, oh, I need to get up and get going
00:36:22.200
again. Right, exactly. Yeah. Well, so if, if somebody's getting started, let's say they,
00:36:27.000
even if they're participating, like I think the, maybe the lowest hanging fruit would be to
00:36:31.260
compete in some sort of obstacle or endurance event. And let's say somebody wants to get started
00:36:35.920
with that from, Hey, I'm on the couch to, I need to go participate in this event. Like you're
00:36:40.500
talking about having these targets out in the future. What would be the first thing somebody
00:36:43.980
should do? Find an event and sign up for it. I mean, that's, that's really the first thing to do
00:36:48.240
is get it on the calendar. And what I tell people is once you get it on the calendar, like tell all
00:36:52.100
your friends about it, post it on Facebook, like paint yourself into a corner, right? So don't just
00:36:55.880
sign up for the triathlon and keep that a secret to yourself. Like take a photo of the registration
00:36:59.140
page and post that to Instagram and like tell your friends on Facebook and maybe start like a
00:37:03.240
training blog and do things that, that kind of put the pressure on you to not just sign up for
00:37:09.020
things. Cause, cause there's this weird human psychological response that we have to signing
00:37:13.720
up for things that give us the satisfaction, oddly enough of having already done the event,
00:37:19.220
right? So if I sign up for an Ironman, like my body will pat itself on the back for having signed up
00:37:24.300
for an Ironman, even though I haven't done the race or trained for it. So that's where telling people
00:37:28.160
about it, you know, hiring a coach or putting some form of extrinsic motivation and joining
00:37:34.000
a team, joining a club, joining a group, doing something that keeps you accountable and that
00:37:38.480
embarrasses you. If you don't finish the event or do the event, I think that's key.
00:37:44.320
Yeah. I can see how that'd be critical because even as I participate in that, uh, that Spartan
00:37:48.020
event, there was no way I couldn't finish because we've literally got thousands of guys that are
00:37:52.480
listening that know I'm actually going to go out and do it. And if I don't hit that 60 hours,
00:37:56.600
that's going to be pretty. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A funny story about that is that, uh,
00:38:02.240
when I would do Ironman triathlon, I would like preload up a bunch of tweets to my Twitter account,
00:38:07.520
like pre-schedule a bunch of tweets that, you know, like, Oh, I'm riding my bike past the
00:38:11.240
a hundred mile mark. And now I'm starting the marathon. So I would know where I like stuff was
00:38:15.840
going to be going out on Twitter and I would just know I had to be at that specific place at that
00:38:19.640
specific time. So it kept me really like on top of things in terms of everything from like
00:38:23.820
making sure my nutrition was dialed in my pacing was dialed in, you know, and, and granted, you know,
00:38:30.400
a couple of times it came back to bite me in the ass when I would like get a flat tire, right. And
00:38:34.320
be like 10 minutes behind of what I had tweeted where I would be. And, you know, but, but ultimately
00:38:38.820
I think the pros outweigh the cons of, of setting it up so that you do have that huge amount of
00:38:44.500
extrinsic motivation, especially for those tougher events. Yeah. And that just that added level
00:38:48.400
of accountability. Yeah. I get that. I'm going to have to try that. Well, Ben, Hey, I know we're
00:38:51.800
winding down on time. I want to ask you a couple of questions as we wind down today. And the first
00:38:55.460
one is what does it mean to be a man? I think that, that being a man, and it's not like women
00:39:01.160
don't have to deal with this as well. Cause I mean, they got to freaking push something the size of a
00:39:05.180
watermelon out their vagina. So they, you know, they, they have to put up with suffering too.
00:39:09.220
But part of being a man is, is being resilient, uh, being anti-fragile, being, uh, being able to
00:39:15.960
withstand stressors. And what I mean by that is as a man, you should be able to go like sit in a
00:39:21.000
really hot sauna for 30 minutes. And when it starts to get hot, just like sit there and take
00:39:24.860
it and be able to breathe or tap your feet or just stay in there and not walk out as a man.
00:39:29.080
You should be able to hop into a cold shower and just like take a cold shower without freaking out
00:39:33.240
and whimpering like a baby. I'm giving these examples. Cause I hang out with guys or I've
00:39:37.380
hung out with guys who, who lit like, as soon as it starts to get hot in the sauna, they're like,
00:39:40.440
I gotta go, I'm getting hot. I'm like, stay in here. That's what getting like, you're in the sauna
00:39:44.700
because getting hot is what makes you stronger and creates all these heat shock proteins and nitric oxide,
00:39:49.260
like suffer it out, dude, you know, focus the mind. Same thing with the cold shower. You don't
00:39:54.260
freak out. You just start doing deep nasal breathing and train your body how to suppress
00:39:58.220
that mammalian dive reflex. And when you do that, your vagus nerve gets stronger and your nervous
00:40:03.760
system gets stronger. And, you know, I, I personally rarely touch the hot water handle on my shower. I
00:40:08.580
always take an icy cold shower, usually a couple of times a day. So being able to withstand stressors
00:40:14.060
like heat stressors, like cold, um, you know, and, and, and, uh, being able to, for example, another one
00:40:21.560
that I see frequently is guys are hungry and they're like, I gotta eat. Just get used to like suppressing
00:40:26.860
hunger. You know, I weigh 175 pounds. My natural body weight is 190. I spend life eating 80% of what I
00:40:35.400
want to eat. I spend life always with a slight amount of hunger that keeps me on the edge. And the reason
00:40:41.840
that I do that is cause I still compete professionally in obstacle course racing. So I just
00:40:46.220
know that 15 extra pounds of hauling my ass up a hill just hurts. It hurts. I don't have to carry
00:40:51.240
it around, you know? And so I just want to be a faster run. If I wanted to get swole, I'd start
00:40:55.240
eating more and I'd get up to 190. You know, I used to be 215 cause I used to bodybuild and I would
00:40:59.600
just eat copious amounts of food until I didn't want to eat anymore. Right. But, but things like hunger
00:41:04.460
and cold and heat, I think a man should be able to embrace those and do so, do, do so without
00:41:11.320
either complaining about it and also without like bragging about it necessarily, which may sound
00:41:16.860
ironic because I, I realized it sounds like I just bragged about my ability to be able to whatever,
00:41:21.880
push myself away from the table and I'm 80% full, but being able to do that stuff and not like go
00:41:25.780
around to everybody inside and be like, Oh, I'm fasting today. I've, I'm so hungry, but I'm fasting.
00:41:32.080
Hey, look at me. So just being able to do that stuff and do it and do it because you know,
00:41:36.860
you're making yourself resilient, not so you can impress your coworkers or whatever.
00:41:40.520
So yeah, those are the biggies because most guys I've found can push themselves pretty hard in the
00:41:44.720
gym, right? And can do the kettlebell swings till they're red in the face, but then like
00:41:49.260
can't handle the cold shower or the heat or the hunger. So just make sure you're covering a wide range
00:41:54.920
of stressors, not just the ability to be able to make muscles burn. I love it. Yeah. And that's
00:41:58.940
something obviously we're, we're on board with. You talk about resilience and
00:42:01.740
mental fortitude and toughness. So right in line with what, what we, what we believe as well. So
00:42:05.720
Ben, I want to let you know, I appreciate you coming on the show. Tell us how we can connect
00:42:09.340
with you because obviously we just, we didn't get into very much at all. And there's so much more we
00:42:13.340
can get into depth. And I know a lot of guys will be interested in doing that.
00:42:16.480
Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, the quickest way to find out what I do and my podcast,
00:42:21.440
my blog and everything is just, uh, Ben Greenfield fitness.com. Um, and at Ben Greenfield
00:42:27.400
fitness.com I've got, you know, podcasts and blogs and all sorts of free material over there for you
00:42:32.720
to peruse. And then, um, I also have a book like 500 plus pages jam packed with biohacks for
00:42:38.600
digestion and sleep and hormones and, uh, fat loss and muscle gain and all sorts of stuff.
00:42:44.380
That's, that's called beyond training. And that is that beyond training book.com right on. Yeah.
00:42:50.740
We'll send all the guys over there for more information, Ben. I just want to, again,
00:42:53.340
let you know, appreciate you. Uh, hopefully we'll bump into each other at some future obstacle race.
00:42:57.780
I'd be good to shake hands, but I appreciate your work and how you're showing up because it's helping
00:43:01.480
me be a better man. And I know the value you provided today is going to help the guy. So
00:43:04.540
thanks again for coming on. Thanks for having me on, man. There it is guys. Such a powerful
00:43:09.760
conversation with New York times, bestselling author, Ben Greenfield. If you haven't bought his book,
00:43:14.960
if you haven't checked out his site and the resources he mentioned, I would suggest that you do that.
00:43:19.460
It will definitely help you improve your level of fitness, exercise, nutrition, health, all of it.
00:43:25.300
Again, just a quick reminder about the iron council. This is our exclusive mastermind again,
00:43:30.420
designed to help you take your life to the next level in those four key areas, which is condition,
00:43:36.720
calibration, connection, and contribution. If you're interested in learning more about what we're
00:43:41.140
doing, head to order of man.com slash iron council. You can get all the details that you may need.
00:43:46.960
You can ask me any questions that you may have, and you can claim your spot inside the iron council.
00:43:52.300
Gentlemen, I look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field notes,
00:43:55.640
but until then take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:43:59.480
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:44:04.080
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.