107： The Art and Science of Giving Gifts ｜ John Ruhlin
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
227.12111
Summary
In this episode, author of Giftology, John Rulon joins me to talk about how powerful gift-giving can be, how to build credibility and influence through the power of appreciation, and how to avoid it coming across as manipulation.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Every single one of us has received a gift in our lives that have made us feel like the most important person on this planet.
00:00:05.440
And knowing that, it's easy to see how giving gifts to others will make them feel.
00:00:09.780
But how often do we tap into the power of gratitude and appreciation and gift-giving?
00:00:14.680
My guest today, author of Giftology, John Rulon, joins me to talk about how powerful gift-giving can be,
00:00:20.100
how to build credibility and influence through the power of appreciation,
00:00:23.560
some important factors to consider when gift-giving,
00:00:25.680
how to avoid it coming across as manipulation, and the art and science of giving gifts.
00:00:31.160
You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
00:00:34.140
Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:37.080
When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:00:41.500
You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:00:49.120
This is who you will become at the end of the day.
00:00:51.700
And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:57.300
My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order of Man.
00:01:06.500
So if you are a man and you are looking to improve your life, this is the show for you.
00:01:11.840
I've just got to say today that I am honored to get your messages and your notes, your emails,
00:01:17.400
telling me how the strategies my guests and I share are changing your life.
00:01:22.360
And that's exactly why we started this project, which has now become a movement.
00:01:26.820
And that just wouldn't be the case without you listening in each week.
00:01:30.640
So I first and foremost want to thank you for that.
00:01:33.500
If you want some additional resources on the show that we're about to delve into today,
00:01:41.040
And if you want to delve more into the topic of appreciation and gift giving a little bit
00:01:45.620
more than what we get to on this show, join 25,000 other men who are having some incredible
00:01:53.880
And you can do that at facebook.com slash groups slash order of man.
00:01:57.820
And something that I talk with you guys about every single week is our mastermind.
00:02:01.420
This is only for men who are ready to take their lives to the next level.
00:02:04.780
I cannot guarantee that if you join us, you're actually going to even see results.
00:02:11.640
But what I can tell you is that if you're willing to do the work and implement the guidance
00:02:17.100
and the direction that we offer, you're going to see some big improvements in your life.
00:02:21.440
So if you are interested in finding more about that and what's included, you can check that
00:02:28.240
Now I want to introduce you to my guest and somebody who has become a friend of mine over
00:02:35.220
In fact, last week I had the opportunity to spend some time with John and I can tell you that
00:02:39.480
this is a man who understands how powerful appreciation and gratitude can be.
00:02:45.460
A cool experience we recently had is that when I was out of town last week with John,
00:02:49.220
one of John's friends who happened to be hosting this event that I was at,
00:02:52.660
sent my wife a set of glasses with our initials etched on them and a singing bowl.
00:02:58.400
You'll have to Google that if you don't know what that is, but that's something my whole
00:03:01.880
But my wife ended up sending me a message and said, if I'm going to get cool gifts while
00:03:06.260
you're gone, I'm going to send you away more often.
00:03:08.280
So you can see that the strategies that he's going to share today actually work.
00:03:14.500
He's got some incredible, incredible clients, including the Cubs, the Jaguars, Wells Fargo,
00:03:22.100
But more importantly, as I said before, John has become a good friend and he's here to talk
00:03:37.260
Time kind of blends together when you're as busy as I know both of us are.
00:03:41.160
So it's been a while, but I'm anxious to have you on the show.
00:03:46.720
So obviously, we're talking about gift giving today.
00:03:49.060
I really want to ask just to lead this off, and I think this will give us some framework
00:03:52.700
for the rest of the discussion, is why you feel gift giving is so critical, so important.
00:03:57.780
I think a lot of times as guys, we hear the word gifts or gratitude or whatever else.
00:04:02.460
We automatically hit the snooze button or check out.
00:04:08.740
And I think that every man would say that relationships are important.
00:04:12.660
It could be a mentor relationship, investors, employees, clients, their spouse.
00:04:16.980
So if relationships matter, how you show in a tangible form, how you show appreciation
00:04:23.420
and gratitude to that relationship really kind of determines, in many ways, the tangible
00:04:29.160
If you look back thousands of years ago, let's say biblical times, kings would give other
00:04:33.560
kings thousands of cattle or their prized horse or whatever it was because that was the
00:04:39.920
representation of the value that they placed on the relationship.
00:04:42.620
And so I think that when we hear the word gifting, especially in 2017 in Western culture,
00:04:47.800
we automatically think of swag and corporate gifts and crap that nobody wants or that doesn't
00:04:56.320
But really, gifting is – I call them artifacts.
00:04:59.120
I hate the word gift even anymore because it's a representation of the value of the
00:05:03.240
relationship and oftentimes can be really, really significant representations of that.
00:05:08.600
Yeah, well, I know you're obviously a man who practices what he preaches because after
00:05:14.080
our first conversation, I get a surprise gift in the mail, which was a K-Bar knife.
00:05:19.980
And I will say it did have a logo, but it was not your logo.
00:05:26.020
And then, of course, you got the Cutco knife, which my wife has used every day up until this
00:05:30.900
So I definitely see what you say, which kind of leads me to my thought beforehand and maybe
00:05:36.860
to play devil's advocate here a little bit because I think a lot of the times people
00:05:41.140
view this as either unnecessary or superficial.
00:05:47.000
Well, I think that first off, the way that I give a gift is open-handed and I think that
00:05:51.900
when you give a gift based upon the value of the relationship – and I value your time.
00:05:56.160
Like when we sit down with somebody, whether it's for coffee or dinner, oftentimes time is
00:06:04.320
And so 30 minutes an hour for a lot of people is worth $100 an hour, $1,000 an hour.
00:06:10.660
And so I think when you can acknowledge people for their most valuable asset that they gave
00:06:19.900
Regardless of whether you do business together, partner together, even talk ever again, I think
00:06:24.620
that when you can step out and say, you know what, I can acknowledge the other person's
00:06:30.440
It actually shows a huge level of respect and honor for that other person and their
00:06:39.120
But when people hear that, they're like, wow, you're right.
00:06:43.780
And when somebody wants to pick my brain, like, I hate that feeling of somebody wanting
00:06:48.860
And I try to turn that on its head and say, you know what, and somebody gives me that,
00:06:52.940
And oftentimes the gifts that we send are $100 to $500 gifts because that's the value I place
00:06:59.500
Yeah, well, and obviously that's how I felt after the gift that I had received by surprise
00:07:04.920
from you, which kind of leads me to the point as well.
00:07:08.420
You know, you sent that gift after we had conversed, after we had had a conversation.
00:07:12.900
But in reading your book, Giftology, you even talk about sending gifts maybe before the value
00:07:20.520
I wonder if this ever comes across as manipulation or if it is genuinely appreciated by everybody
00:07:26.820
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's people out there that are very cynical and are like,
00:07:34.040
But what's funny is people will, like, I just spoke at an event to a group of CEOs and somebody
00:07:38.620
came up and said, hey, I'm the person that you sent XYZ to.
00:07:42.180
And I'm like, I don't even remember sending that to you.
00:07:46.880
And because, I mean, I send out, you know, a quarter million dollars a year worth of gifts
00:07:52.700
And I'm a big believer in eating your own dog food and modeling the best practice.
00:07:56.480
You can't be a, you know, say, teach people to be generous and then not be generous.
00:08:00.200
That doesn't work out real well, especially at home.
00:08:03.840
You don't want to be a great gift giver in business and not be a great gift giver at home.
00:08:07.080
And so I think that, you know, the manipulation side, I mean, there is an element of like,
00:08:10.500
we all, if you have a business or you work for any sort of business, like,
00:08:15.000
you know, profit's not a bad word and we all want good things to happen.
00:08:17.800
I think the big thing for us is I play it with the 50-year mindset, play it for the long game.
00:08:22.260
Gary Vaynerchuk will talk about, you know, he's an attention broker.
00:08:25.880
And I feel like when you're generous, I'll sometimes send a gift on the front end
00:08:32.240
And there is an element of like, hey, I want to make sure that they don't cancel.
00:08:35.500
So there is a selfish motive, but there's other, there's the other motive of they're
00:08:40.940
I want to thank them on the front end so that there's a understanding going into it.
00:08:44.700
I don't take their time lightly or for granted.
00:08:47.400
And so I kind of view myself as an attention broker as well.
00:08:50.140
Like I'm pre-buying their attention and acknowledging how valuable that is.
00:08:55.340
I think it's almost more transparent to say, hey, dude, I, you know, I'm hopeful that good
00:09:01.120
But when somebody gets a gift from me, you'll notice like I'm not asking for anything in the
00:09:05.040
note, it's not like, hey, I would love a referral, you know, as a result of this gift, or I'm
00:09:10.240
not alluding towards anything other than I'm just trying to acknowledge the other human
00:09:16.340
And in doing so, I think people feel the intention when you give gifts the right way.
00:09:20.260
So that leads me to the balance between being strategic with this and then gifting just because
00:09:30.000
Yeah, well, I think that there are times when I just send cool stuff to people and I really
00:09:36.120
I just, I was being interviewed by somebody and they had a huge audience and millions of
00:09:41.900
But I just hit it off with a guy and he was a lot of fun.
00:09:44.700
And he mentioned, you know, a sauna because that's part of my morning routine is I use a
00:09:54.980
And his podcast had to do with fire and whatever else.
00:10:03.980
There really was no, like, he had already had me on the show.
00:10:06.540
Like, it wasn't like I was trying to manipulate the situation.
00:10:11.380
And I think that when you start to become a, you know, when you kind of exercise what
00:10:15.320
I call the gratitude muscle on a regular basis, you just start to see life differently
00:10:21.020
And there's times when you're just like, that's a perfect gift for that person.
00:10:23.540
Or that's a, here's an opportunity to do something crazy for this person.
00:10:32.920
I'm like, what would be the coolest way to bring Gary into St. Louis?
00:10:36.900
Like, you know, he doesn't come to St. Louis every day and he's from New York and he gets
00:10:40.440
I'm like, I want to helicopter him in from the airport into the location.
00:10:45.680
Now the sucky part is the only airport or the only helicopter company in St.
00:10:49.760
Louis that I could do that with was fully booked.
00:10:52.160
But I promised him that the next time he comes to St.
00:10:56.240
We're going to helicopter him into whatever the venue is.
00:10:58.920
Just because, because it's fun and it makes for a good story.
00:11:02.760
But I do think that, you know, there is an element of a good chunk of our budget is strategic.
00:11:06.940
It's based upon either the current or lifetime potential value of the relationship.
00:11:12.200
And so when I look at a referral partner or a partnership opportunity or a client or an
00:11:19.200
Like the lifetime value of this employee could be worth millions of dollars to my company
00:11:25.700
So I'm willing to invest X percentage of that value on the front end with the hopes that
00:11:33.500
And oftentimes if you do it the right way, sometimes, you know, you think the value is,
00:11:37.660
let's say a client's going to produce $100,000 in profit over the next 10 years.
00:11:41.280
If you do it well, that might turn into 200,000 and maybe they refer you five people over the
00:11:47.960
And then you, now you start getting into like, you know, half a million dollars in profit
00:11:54.160
So it's not just like warm, fuzzy, fluffy, you know, unicorns and rainbows.
00:11:58.420
And like there is strategy to it, but I do think that there's an element of like just
00:12:03.260
And when you have the opportunity, like one of my mentors that taught me a lot of what I
00:12:07.040
do, like he would just, I could see him kind of asking the question, like, what's the most
00:12:12.840
Like what, basically what's the most I can afford to do?
00:12:15.180
Most people ask themselves the opposite, which is what's the least I can get away with and
00:12:20.240
Like whether you're buying a graduation gift for your niece or nephew or going to a wedding,
00:12:25.720
And I think it's really powerful in all areas of your relationships and your business to say,
00:12:32.200
And you start to dream and you're like, holy crap.
00:12:34.160
But there's, you know, even if you're knocking it out of the ballpark, like a lot of us could
00:12:39.020
We just hold back five or 10% because of that scarcity mindset.
00:12:46.520
Obviously you're talking about flying Gary Vaynerchuk in a helicopter, which I think you're
00:12:53.180
But then the other side of me says, oh my goodness, like this is so much effort, right?
00:12:58.920
And you're having to figure this out and what would be cool for the sauna.
00:13:04.720
So how do you balance between trying to make this a memorable, unique experience versus
00:13:09.820
overwhelming yourself with trying to figure out what this person would like and then coordinating
00:13:16.920
So, I mean, selfishly, we built our business on like companies, leaders, you know, speakers,
00:13:25.520
So, you know, like Gary's not a client yet, but guys like him will say, John, here's my
00:13:32.440
Like I need to do something cool for them, their wives, their assistants, their kids,
00:13:38.020
So there's an element of like, well, we can do that.
00:13:41.740
And so we have that ability to do it for ourselves and other companies.
00:13:45.520
But I would say in general, what I think is, is that people get overwhelmed because they
00:13:49.540
have 5,000 connections on LinkedIn and they have this many connections on Facebook.
00:13:54.220
And they start to think about like, what can I do for 5,000 people?
00:13:58.160
And Gary will be the first one to tell you like business happens one on one.
00:14:01.920
Like his big deals that he closes, like it's oftentimes your year or maybe even decade,
00:14:08.380
the success of that is based upon a handful of people.
00:14:16.520
It sounds cool to say, you know, I have a million followers on Twitter, you know, like
00:14:21.320
But I guarantee there's probably 30 people that have like made his entire last decade that
00:14:28.300
And when you start to say like, how can I take a smaller group of people and go all
00:14:33.460
in with those 10, 20, 50 people, 100 people, like your dream 100.
00:14:38.440
Now, all of a sudden, it's not as overwhelming.
00:14:41.060
And what's amazing is, is when you spend 80% of your budget and time on those 20% of your
00:14:47.120
relationships, now all of a sudden, like you have some roots to those relationships where
00:14:53.920
Like that's where like deepness and specialness and, you know, seven figure deals are closed.
00:15:01.620
And, and frankly, you know, with all the noise of 2017 with Facebook and Snapchat and
00:15:06.860
whatever else, like you want to get somebody's attention, you better go and don't go like
00:15:15.480
Because when you do that, then you stand out, then you're memorable.
00:15:18.780
Then people are like, wow, this person really cares versus my steak dinner is better than
00:15:25.700
And so I think it can be overwhelming if you don't hone in and focus it on a few versus
00:15:33.320
How do you personally identify or even track your quote unquote dream 100?
00:15:39.380
I'm really curious about your, your process for that.
00:15:42.200
I mean, we have a CRM just like anybody else, but a lot of it is, you know, it's old school
00:15:47.820
Like here's the, you know, like a John Roman, like he'll tell you, like he's focused on adding
00:15:53.220
the most value to his eight closest relationships this year, you know, and eight people, you
00:15:58.720
don't need a spreadsheet or anything else for that.
00:16:01.960
I think that, you know, for me too, like I have, you know, hundreds and even thousands
00:16:06.660
of clients, but there's, you know, there's 20 of them that really, you know, I don't
00:16:10.060
say that matter, but that from a move the needle perspective, it's a lot of what we teach
00:16:16.260
It's like, take, cause everybody's so focused on all this technology stuff and all of that's
00:16:21.640
But I've just found that like, you know, it's like, it's like, yeah, you could send out,
00:16:25.880
you know, a newsletter to a million people or you could write 20 handwritten notes that
00:16:30.560
And I found that the old school take the time, be thoughtful because it's so uncommon now.
00:16:37.100
It's not rocket science, but it's just a matter of staying focused and writing down
00:16:40.720
in a journal or maybe have an Excel spreadsheet or maybe you have a really fancy, you know,
00:16:44.540
like we use contactually for certain things and hatch buck and we have these cool CRMs
00:16:50.680
But at the end of the day, a lot of it is what we do is old school.
00:16:53.200
Like, you know, I spent the entire day yesterday, mainly with Gary and his crew.
00:16:56.660
You know, I didn't worry about the other 20,000 people that I know.
00:17:01.220
I was focused on him taking care of his crew, making sure they were comfortable, making sure
00:17:08.960
Like I was focused on one person and his two most important guys right there.
00:17:13.120
And I think there's real, I think people are craving that more now than ever in 2017.
00:17:18.760
I want to get to this, what you talked about with that uncommonality.
00:17:21.940
But before I get to that, just to follow up on this, on this conversation, I've actually
00:17:27.120
got a board right here above my computer and I've got a list of probably 15 people that
00:17:32.480
And I'm looking through this list as we're having this conversation, like, all right, I
00:17:35.220
need to send gifts to all of these guys based on this conversation.
00:17:37.700
How do I find out what's going to be valuable and what's going to be special to these guys
00:17:45.860
Yeah, I think that, I mean, one of the cool things about technology is people put a lot
00:17:51.660
of stuff out there social media wise, and it's pretty easy to find things out.
00:17:56.140
I would say the other thing is, is if you build a relationship with their inner circle, you
00:17:59.740
know, if they have an assistant or a spouse, it's amazing, obviously, what you can find
00:18:04.120
out by just reaching out to their inner circle.
00:18:05.880
And thirdly, I'd say that, you know, when you're dealing with, let's say, influencers,
00:18:10.720
thought leaders, CEOs, you know, leaders in general, they're oftentimes catered to a
00:18:15.660
Like when I travel and golf, I golf at Pebble Beach.
00:18:17.940
Like I get to, you know, fly, you know, first class or sometimes private or, you know, stay
00:18:26.440
If you want to get my attention, though, you take care of my wife, my kids and my assistants.
00:18:32.060
That's like an honor me and make me look like a rock star to them.
00:18:34.940
A hundred dollars spent on them is like spending $10,000 on me because I get, I get all the
00:18:40.980
And I'm not saying nobody can find a gift to send me like that.
00:18:43.580
I'm not trying to come off as like arrogant, but it's hard to get my attention for long
00:18:49.320
And I think a lot of you, probably those 15 guys, you know, maybe they're girls, but
00:18:56.320
But if they're married, you know, my wife gets the worst side of being in business.
00:18:59.760
Like I travel, I speak, like she's dealing with three sick kids under, you know, we have
00:19:03.980
three daughters under six that had, you know, strep and flu.
00:19:07.020
She gets the worst side of being in business many times.
00:19:11.520
So take care of them and you'll take care of me and you get my attention and make me
00:19:16.440
So I would look for, you know, that's why the knives work.
00:19:19.020
Like I can send, you know, a knife set that's, that's beautifully engraved for the family
00:19:23.340
and the spouse and the wife and I can send that same gift, push a button and send it
00:19:30.220
And most of those homes, everybody feel like it's something that's pretty universal.
00:19:33.820
Like everybody eats, entertains as a foodie, host people.
00:19:36.800
So the knives work for almost every, like I have 25 pro sports teams as clients.
00:19:41.780
I've used the knives for almost all of them because there's certain things that make us
00:19:47.360
And I focus on those common hot buttons that most people are like, oh, all of our clients
00:19:52.820
Well, they already have all the golf stuff they could possibly use in 10 lifetimes because
00:19:56.460
everybody knows they like the golf, like go below the surface and come at it from a different
00:20:00.800
angle with the family involved or some of these other ways.
00:20:03.900
And, and that's that we look for those unique angles that we can take and also bring a little
00:20:09.400
So, you know, if we are sending something to a hundred people, it's difficult to send a
00:20:15.440
It's doable, but you really better really be dedicated to, to really going, you know, really,
00:20:25.060
And this is going back to your efficiency with the amount of effort required to plan
00:20:30.540
Well, and this is what you did in my situation is, is my wife, before I jumped on this call
00:20:35.340
was very clear and very articulate about making sure that I thanked you for the gift that
00:20:40.180
you sent because that knife she uses every single day.
00:20:43.040
So I can see what you're saying when you talk about the inner circle.
00:20:46.580
And I'm top of mind, whether you want me to be or not subconsciously.
00:20:50.240
I mean, the psychology is like every time you use that artifact or she does, she's remind,
00:20:54.340
like, there's a pleasant trigger in her mind subconsciously of like where it came from,
00:20:59.600
And even though I don't know her, if I, you know, invited you to something and you're
00:21:08.560
And, you know, and I've had this literally happen.
00:21:10.260
Like their spouses, wives that are like, you can go on any trip you want to, if it's with
00:21:15.060
And they don't even know me, but they feel honored and respected because I took the time
00:21:19.120
to acknowledge them as a part of the, you know, the overall team and knowing that, you
00:21:23.900
know, the spouse and the significant other behind the scenes is oftentimes just as important,
00:21:29.700
And so that top of mind awareness, it's amazing how powerful that can really be.
00:21:35.420
So is this the primary principle then that you've used to build as much influence you
00:21:42.880
Is this the primary strategy for building the type of relationships with the caliber of
00:21:48.300
I mean, they're obviously you can't have a sucky business and give great gifts.
00:21:53.560
You have to be best in class, whatever you are, whether you're selling post-it notes or
00:21:58.800
Like you have to be best in class or world-class and have things dialed in that way.
00:22:02.680
But yeah, I mean, my secret sauce is if you gift like a king, you get treated like a king.
00:22:09.220
And so we've been doing that for 17 years and trying to do it as well as we can in the
00:22:14.320
right way with the right intentions, planting good seeds.
00:22:17.180
And over time, you know, it's another principle, like you reap what you sow, you know, we're reaping
00:22:22.320
the rewards of sending out and showing a lot of generosity and taking care of people and
00:22:28.500
And over time, like if you're trying to play like the short game and make things happen
00:22:32.900
in the next 30 days, that's where you start to get contrived and manipulated and all that
00:22:37.480
But if you're like, hey, I'm in this for the long haul and relationships are going to be
00:22:40.780
one of my most important assets and I'm going to play this long game.
00:22:46.880
You know, without knowing you and a little bit about your story and also reading the book,
00:22:51.960
I think it'd be very easy for me to say, oh, this is easy for you to say because
00:22:56.280
you've got this big company, you've got these influential people you're hanging out with,
00:23:01.900
And so I'm curious if a guy's listening to this and says, hey, you know, I make 50, 80
00:23:09.300
I want to level up my business or start a new business.
00:23:17.080
I started the business, you know, just over 16 years ago in college.
00:23:22.120
Most people assume, you know, when they hear, oh, you're speaking at Google like, oh, did you
00:23:27.420
Like, no, I grew up in Nowersville, Ohio, about a 45 minute south of Canton.
00:23:35.180
And I grew up milking goats every morning before I went to school.
00:23:43.560
I grew up working like very like lower middle income, you know, not poor, like we didn't have
00:23:50.020
But like garage sale specials, like nothing ever was new.
00:23:53.440
When you're one of six kids, like I grew up just kind of like grinding it out and learning
00:23:58.520
And when I went into college, I thought I was going to go be a doctor because I knew I didn't
00:24:02.120
want to do blue collar stuff the rest of my life necessarily and got good grades, was an
00:24:06.740
And, and I started out when I interned with Cutco, the knife company, I wore glasses to
00:24:12.280
And I wore the one tie that I had into the interview.
00:24:15.520
Like that's how green and how unsophisticated I was.
00:24:19.540
Really, a lot of what I learned, I learned from a mentor.
00:24:24.260
He had more referrals than he could possibly handle because he was always giving things
00:24:29.500
And so a lot of what I learned, I learned from him because he was just, he'd find like
00:24:33.780
deals on noodles and buy like a semi-load of noodles and everybody at church next Sunday
00:24:37.560
would end up with like, you know, 20 cases of noodles.
00:24:42.240
I thought he'd give away pocket knives because all of his clients are men.
00:24:44.580
They're like CEOs of home builders and insurance companies and lumberyards.
00:24:47.900
And he was the one that gave me the idea about the spouse because he's like, can I get
00:24:53.520
And I'm like, you're going to give grown men paring knives?
00:24:58.140
And, uh, and he's like, uh, you're wondering why, right?
00:25:00.840
And I'm like, I'll sell you as many as I want, Paul.
00:25:04.700
And, uh, he said, I found that if you take care of the inner circle, the family, everything
00:25:10.380
At that point in time, I started to invest about $200 a month of my own money, which as
00:25:16.540
a college kid, $200 might as well have been $2 million.
00:25:22.200
I would buy like a carving set or whatever it would be.
00:25:27.280
I'd want to get their attention that I'd find out the wife's name, engrave that family name.
00:25:30.900
And I put a little card inside said, carve out five minutes for me.
00:25:35.860
And oftentimes I'd get the meeting and I'd walk in to a boardroom at like 21, 22 years
00:25:41.700
The, uh, a 60 year old guy walks into the boardroom and he's like, I'm really, I thought
00:25:45.780
you'd be like 50 years old season sales executive.
00:25:52.040
And I'm like, no, I'm here to help you and your thousand sales reps do exactly what I
00:25:56.120
I'm here to show you how gratitude could be a competitive advantage for you.
00:25:59.840
And so we'd walk out of there with deals, oftentimes, you know, a thousand sets that Cutco actually
00:26:04.660
thought they were fraud orders because they'd never seen an order that big.
00:26:08.300
And by the time I was a senior in college, I was their largest distributor out of a million
00:26:11.400
and a half in the 70 year history of the company because I was using it as a strategic
00:26:16.520
So, but I say all that to say that I started out with, you know, buying a gift once a month
00:26:22.500
And so it didn't start out with giving away quarter million dollars a year with the gifts.
00:26:26.520
It started out with one gift at a time because that's, or maybe two gifts at a time because
00:26:32.100
Then maybe it's a, this year you're going to say, I'm going to spend $500 for the entire
00:26:36.480
I'm going to buy five gifts at a hundred dollars a piece to the most important people.
00:26:39.760
And maybe some of the relationships are your inner, maybe you've ignored interpersonal relationships.
00:26:44.660
Like this isn't just a, you know, a business, even though the giftology, the book is a business
00:26:50.260
strategy book and companies use it, pro sports teams use it.
00:26:54.300
The concepts, you know, whether you're selling widgets or whether, you know, you're walking
00:26:58.760
down the street, we're all human beings trying to connect with other human beings.
00:27:02.240
So it doesn't matter your industry, your company size.
00:27:06.860
We have $20 billion companies as clients because it has to do with people, people buy
00:27:11.820
So I would say you don't have to be born in a certain city or have the right connections.
00:27:16.660
In fact, I think a lot of the reason I developed the concepts that we did was out of just bare
00:27:21.940
necessity of I'm not like, even though I speak all over the world now, like I was the most
00:27:31.340
I literally would have diarrhea for a week leading up to the, um, the speaking engagement,
00:27:36.560
Like I would literally like I would, my insides would turn inside out.
00:27:39.620
Like I hated it, but over time I saw the impact of doing it and how much our business grew
00:27:45.460
and how, you know, what, what people were inspired to go do as a result.
00:27:48.660
And so I overcame that horrible fear that I had.
00:27:53.560
But the bottom line is on the gifting side, you can start small.
00:27:56.480
The big key, I talked about the gratitude muscle.
00:27:59.320
The big key is identifying the people and being consistent day in and day out, week in and
00:28:05.340
Even if you fall off the horse, keep doing it and know that this is how the universe
00:28:13.940
We're wired to be, you know, love is not just for a certain type of human being.
00:28:20.180
And if that's true, then anybody can be good at this if they put their, you know, the intention
00:28:26.680
Men, just a quick break to tell you about our exclusive mastermind.
00:28:33.920
This is a brotherhood of men all working to improve their lives in four key areas.
00:28:38.700
Condition, which is health calibration, which is yourself connection, which is the relationships
00:28:43.200
you have and contribution the way that you're giving back and the way that you are providing
00:28:48.380
This week, I asked the men inside the council, what was the biggest benefit to being a member?
00:28:54.220
And the thing that kept coming up were number one, brotherhood, number two, accountability
00:29:00.720
So if you're looking for those things and you want the guidance and the tools and the
00:29:04.860
direction and the clarity that you need to take your life to the next level, this is
00:29:10.200
This month, we're talking about and exploring the concept of stoicism and how to use it to
00:29:16.940
So if you're interested in joining us in that conversation and hundreds of other conversations
00:29:20.700
that we're having and really taking your life up a notch, you can join us at orderofman.com
00:29:27.940
Again, that's orderofman.com slash iron council.
00:29:30.860
Now, let me get back to my conversation with John.
00:29:34.900
I like that you talk about intention because I think it would be very easy for somebody to
00:29:39.180
listen to this and say, okay, I've got to figure out the formula, right?
00:29:41.820
Like I've got to game the system in a way that's going to produce maximum results.
00:29:45.560
And obviously there's an element, you talk about metrics to that, but the intentionality
00:29:49.300
and the motive behind what you're doing sounds a little bit more sincere than I think a lot
00:29:57.840
You meet somebody and within 30 seconds, sometimes with even 10 seconds, do I like this
00:30:03.420
Like there's certain cues and subconscious things going on and gifting magnifies and puts
00:30:10.400
And so if you're doing things with the wrong intentions, people feel that and nobody likes
00:30:16.540
to be manipulated, but everybody likes to be appreciated and treated VIP and special.
00:30:20.540
I mean, that's, you know, American Express and the black card and the VIP line at Disney
00:30:25.520
Like everybody at some level loves to be treated special.
00:30:31.060
And if you get the gifting right, you're really putting a tangible reminder in their hands that
00:30:35.760
this person cares about me and is thoughtful enough to have taken the time, energy, resources,
00:30:44.920
People are like, oh, I'd done the gifting thing before and it didn't work.
00:31:01.180
It's like I could give the same Rolex two different ways.
00:31:06.420
In one way, it would feel like it was an honor, depending upon who it was given to,
00:31:10.100
when it was given, why, what was on it, how it was packaged, what the note said.
00:31:14.640
All of those things are just as important as the item itself.
00:31:19.740
What's the most unique gift that you've ever given?
00:31:23.740
That you have ever, both, I guess, that you've ever given and that you've ever received.
00:31:31.200
One of the, yeah, one of the more fun ones that I've received recently.
00:31:34.140
I had somebody reach out to me that listened to like, I think, Lewis Howell's podcast and
00:31:41.440
And they somehow got my email address, emailed me and said, John, you don't know me.
00:31:45.180
I know this is kind of creepy, but I'm putting myself out there.
00:31:50.760
And so I want to do something really nice to honor you and especially your wife.
00:31:56.300
And this is what I've read in it and done in it.
00:31:58.400
And they really just kind of poured their heart out.
00:32:00.540
And I looked at it on a Friday night on my phone.
00:32:04.660
I put my phone down probably no less than five times.
00:32:07.160
And finally, I'm like, what's the worst that can happen?
00:32:12.700
And the guy emails back like a week later and said, hey, the gifts are ready.
00:32:18.140
So I set up a meeting like 530 so I could bail out at six to go home if I had to.
00:32:26.240
And in walks his kid at 530 and he's got like a Tupperware, big Tupperware tub and whatever
00:32:32.560
I'm like, what's going to come out of this thing?
00:32:35.800
And I used to make fun of mugs because I was like, nobody needs a freaking corporate
00:32:44.740
He pulls out this hand-carved, beautiful mug that literally tells my wife's entire life
00:32:59.980
Being on the farm and basketball is a passion of mine.
00:33:04.580
And then he pulls out two vases that he carved that told our life story together.
00:33:12.200
And I'm like, I can't, I'm thinking in my head, like, what a schmuck am I?
00:33:34.260
He's like, it's an eight and a half hour drive.
00:33:36.280
You drove eight and a half hours for basically a five minute meeting to handle everything?
00:33:45.500
Like my dad, I promised my dad I wouldn't drive back.
00:33:51.560
You know, I'd stayed too long, you know, like probably a couple hours with him.
00:33:54.500
And my wife was like, she's used to that kind of crap with me.
00:34:12.400
She's like, that kind of person has to stay at our house.
00:34:15.140
So now we're like using him as one of our top go-to guests for clients.
00:34:20.360
And people are just like, they're getting him for their wives, for their husbands, for
00:34:24.720
They're just blown away because it's like, you know, everybody drinks tea or coffee or
00:34:31.380
And yet it's like this piece of art that I call it a practical luxury.
00:34:35.540
It's like you can use it and it reminds you of who you are and where you've come from.
00:34:44.620
You know, people blow that on expensive bottle of wine that's consumed in 15 minutes.
00:34:48.780
And yet now you have something that you'll have and probably passed down to your kids
00:34:53.560
And so even the most mundane object, if done well and right and with all the details, can
00:34:59.940
And so that was one of the cooler ones, not only that I've received, but we've now started
00:35:05.400
to do it for some of our closest friends and clients and family and partners.
00:35:09.820
And people are just like, there's nobody that's getting it and not tearing up.
00:35:15.080
Let's go with that story for a second, because it sounds like this has turned into not only
00:35:19.740
a relationship, but a business opportunity for this young man.
00:35:24.680
Is this something that you've offered now to your clients?
00:35:29.720
How do we follow up when we give a gift of this caliber?
00:35:32.860
Yeah, well, I think it was obvious that there was a hope on his side.
00:35:36.580
He did it, you know, with good intentions, but like anything, like he hopes for profit and
00:35:40.680
he knew that when, when, when, um, when I got the gifts, I connected the dots and I'm
00:35:47.520
He's like, well, right now they're taking like four or five hours each, but we could scale
00:35:51.740
that down and probably get them done, you know, with some help and some apprentices and
00:35:55.400
whatever else down to excellent, you know, an hour or two and, you know, and add other
00:35:59.640
And he's like, but the funny thing is, he's like, I won't sell them to people unless they're
00:36:06.560
So he has like, you know, his heart's in the right place and he's doing things the right
00:36:13.020
I'm like, dude, I know like this will never, I shouldn't say never, this is not likely to
00:36:16.780
be a huge business, but I think this is a really special gift.
00:36:19.000
And I would like to figure out how both of us can win in something like this and honor
00:36:26.240
And, and we win and our clients win and the recipients win.
00:36:29.540
And I'm naturally a connector and I try to find the win-win and angle for everybody automatically.
00:36:34.740
But I think in general, like, you know, when you give a gift like that, you know, sometimes
00:36:39.640
there's a lot of patience involved of like, you don't want to, last you want to do is send
00:36:47.920
And you can take and ruin the gift if you don't do it the right way.
00:36:51.520
Now we can, you know, for our clients, we will confirm that they receive the gift because
00:36:55.400
sometimes I would say one, 2% of our gifts either get stolen or UPS does something crazy
00:37:00.240
with it or, you know, like you just never know.
00:37:02.400
And so you do want to confirm that they actually receive it.
00:37:04.200
Cause sometimes you're thinking like, did they get the gift?
00:37:08.420
But there's also an element of like, they might be traveling for a month or maybe their
00:37:12.580
And so I think there's an element of, you know, and that's where people are like, well, I
00:37:17.840
And I'm like, well, first off, that's one gift.
00:37:21.260
And like, you know, you said, if you told me you sent a hundred gifts and didn't get any
00:37:24.840
feedback, then I would say you're probably sending the wrong gift or doing things.
00:37:32.320
And you can't necessarily like, I even tell like our financial advisor clients and other
00:37:35.740
people that are in, you know, higher level relationship building, you need to be committed
00:37:40.960
If you think that you're just going to send out gifts one time or for one year and all
00:37:44.520
of a sudden, like this, everything's going to happen massively.
00:37:48.440
Like even Gary yesterday was speaking, he's like, I did a wine library.tv and I made $2,900
00:37:54.420
in sales over the first 18 months and he was pouring in, adding value.
00:38:00.100
I'm sure you saw this with your podcast and other things that you're doing.
00:38:03.220
I went for nine months before I made a dime, a nine months of just everything into this
00:38:14.820
Like you got to give yourself time for the gifts to work and to jog the memory and for
00:38:18.880
the spouse to be impacted and, you know, for people to use it and other people to comment
00:38:27.040
Maybe they're going through a divorce right now or their kid or their parents got Alzheimer's
00:38:32.600
And so it's not that you gave a sucky gift or that the relationship isn't there, but people
00:38:39.380
And oftentimes your priorities are not their priorities.
00:38:43.420
And even given a thoughtful gift, while it might be memorable and thoughtful and stand out,
00:38:47.640
you know, you have to give yourself that, that kind of long game viewpoint, um, in order
00:38:52.760
And most people are impatient and they want the quick fix and they want the hack and you
00:38:58.720
know, this, you know, gifting while can accelerate things, but it's not like you still have to
00:39:02.980
do the work and you still got to allow enough time for things to happen.
00:39:07.140
Well, I think we're just scratching the surface.
00:39:08.960
And to me, it sounds like even a process of experimentation and just being creative.
00:39:13.300
I'm thinking here now, and I've got, like I said, this list in front of me, I've got
00:39:16.680
My brain's just turning, like I can do this and this and this.
00:39:19.000
So this has been a really fascinating conversation.
00:39:21.500
And again, I know it can get a lot deeper, but for the sake of time, we'll wind things
00:39:25.060
I do want to ask you a couple other questions, John, as we wind down.
00:39:28.120
And the first one is what does it mean to be a man?
00:39:32.320
I mean, I think that, uh, in my context, I think about a man leading their family and
00:39:38.000
you know, I know not everybody on your show is married, but I, when I think of a man,
00:39:41.000
I think of like a leader, spiritual leader, oftentimes breadwinner, the shepherd of their
00:39:46.740
kids and shepherding their hearts and kind of modeling work ethic.
00:39:50.600
Those are the things that come to mind, strength and protection.
00:39:53.220
Like, and at the same time, being the person that cares for a significant other's wife's
00:39:58.900
Like those are, when I think about being a man and the things that I'm called to do
00:40:02.420
and get better at and succeed at that, uh, those are the areas that, uh, that are on my
00:40:11.740
How do we learn more about the work that you're doing?
00:40:14.180
Well, I would say one thing that we created, you know, for your listeners that might be
00:40:17.940
Sometimes people like I can't afford John or whatever else.
00:40:20.540
And whether that's true or not, like they want to go do it on their own and experiment,
00:40:23.580
but they just need kind of like when you take your kids bowling, like they just need
00:40:28.280
So they bought, you know, the ball doesn't go in the gutter.
00:40:31.800
And so we created a PDF, the top 10 worst gifts to avoid giving.
00:40:35.720
And so we created this PDF, this, I think that people can kind of relate to, so they
00:40:39.380
can at least, whether it's for themselves or their marketing team.
00:40:42.100
And if you go to giftology book, all one word, so giftology book.com slash order of
00:40:47.000
man, you can get that free download and take it and use it.
00:40:50.020
And at least kind of give you some, some guidelines.
00:40:52.540
If you don't want to go buy the book or check it out, the books available on audible and
00:40:56.860
Kindle and everything else on Amazon, they want to check it out there.
00:40:59.740
And the outsourced gifting company is ruling group.
00:41:05.820
And that tells like some of the cool projects we've done with like the Chicago Cubs and,
00:41:10.700
And then more of the speaking thought leadership is John ruling, all one word.com.
00:41:15.600
And that's more like me speaking at fortune and those kinds of places.
00:41:20.920
I got to say, I'd be a little nervous to download your 10 worst gifts to give.
00:41:27.620
In fact, I know I did this week because one of my gifts was declined by somebody that I
00:41:32.900
And I'm like, oh yeah, that probably wasn't a great gift to send.
00:41:35.900
Oh, Hey man, even I'll tell you, like I fall on my face, like the way you learn and try
00:41:41.860
and error and like, and here's the thing there, there are like for every rule that we make,
00:41:46.140
there are times that are outliers that, you know, the rules are made to be broken.
00:41:49.520
So like I say, Apple is one of the worst gifts you can give because everybody has like iPhones
00:41:55.560
But there are times where, you know, you find out somebody broke their iPhone and you surprise
00:42:02.400
So take the 10 worst gifts to give with a grain of salt.
00:42:06.040
Like it's not an absolute every single time always, but they're general guidelines of,
00:42:11.220
you know, what makes a good gift and what makes a bad gift.
00:42:13.900
And really giftology, we go into deep detail on our entire game plan.
00:42:17.580
So you can kind of, you know, you want the quick version, download the PDF.
00:42:21.060
You want the more in detail version, go get the book.
00:42:23.680
And I would, I would suggest they do that as well.
00:42:26.020
I mean, I, it's been valuable for me just in the what month or so that I've been using
00:42:33.660
I do feel like we have a deeper connection than a lot of my podcast guests, just because
00:42:37.160
we have connected through, through a gift and your generosity as well.
00:42:41.620
So I can tell that this is something that definitely works and it's connected us and got to let
00:42:47.660
Well, I can't wait to see it at Roman's front row.
00:42:51.640
So dude, we'll get a chance to bond even deeper and have some fun and talk about what it means
00:43:03.800
If you are not convinced about the power of appreciation and gratitude and giving gifts,
00:43:11.260
John has used some of his strategies, some of these techniques that he talked about with me.
00:43:15.040
I've used them with some of my friends and clients.
00:43:18.040
So if you are interested in learning more about what he's up to, make sure you check out his
00:43:24.920
You can find the link to that book and some of the show notes again at order of man.com
00:43:31.640
In the meantime, and guys, if you are ready to take your life to the next level again, make
00:43:36.540
sure you join us inside of our mastermind, the iron council.
00:43:39.380
Remember this month, we are going to be talking all about the concept of stoicism.
00:43:43.540
And most importantly, how we can implement, implement what we talk about to enhance our
00:43:49.540
lives and the lives of those that we have a responsibility for and the lives of those
00:43:54.000
If you're interested in learning more about what we're up to and all that is included
00:43:57.440
in your membership, head to order of man.com slash iron council.
00:44:02.600
I'll look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field notes.
00:44:05.760
But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:44:09.840
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
00:44:13.720
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:44:17.740
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.