Order of Man - April 18, 2017


109： No More Mr. Nice Guy ｜ Dr. Robert Glover


Episode Stats

Length

45 minutes

Words per Minute

189.8471

Word Count

8,675

Sentence Count

534

Misogynist Sentences

13

Hate Speech Sentences

10


Summary

Dr. Robert Glover joins me to talk about the myth of the nice guy, common negative symptoms the Nice Guy experiences, how to implement the healthy male rule, and how you can eliminate the nice Guy once and for all. This episode is sponsored by The Iron Council, an organization dedicated to reclaiming what it means to be a man.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 If you are anything like me, you are a recovering nice guy, or maybe you're still a nice guy.
00:00:05.140 A lot of men may hear that and wonder what's wrong with being nice, and there's nothing
00:00:08.460 wrong with being nice until it comes at the expense of your own well-being.
00:00:12.640 My guest today, author of the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, Dr. Robert Glover, joins me
00:00:16.840 to talk about the myth of the nice guy, common negative symptoms the nice guy experiences,
00:00:21.840 how to implement the healthy male rule, and how you can eliminate the nice guy once and
00:00:27.060 for all.
00:00:27.480 You're a man of action, you live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly
00:00:32.500 chart your own path.
00:00:33.780 When life knocks you down, you get back up, one more time, every time.
00:00:38.200 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:00:43.260 This is your life, this is who you are, this is who you will become.
00:00:47.520 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:53.020 Men, what is going on today?
00:00:54.180 My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, Order of Man.
00:00:59.100 This is a brotherhood.
00:01:00.100 This is an organization.
00:01:01.240 It's a group of men, all dedicated to reclaiming what it means to be a man.
00:01:05.460 Gentlemen, I am sure that you recognize just as much as I have that the world is in need
00:01:10.220 of more and more men.
00:01:11.860 More fathers to step up in their homes, more husbands to fulfill that role in a marriage,
00:01:17.780 more virtuous leaders in business, stronger men in the community, just better men in general.
00:01:22.240 So if you have a desire to be that kind of man, you are in the right place.
00:01:26.960 If not, stick around, and maybe by the end of the show, you will have a desire to be that
00:01:31.740 kind of man.
00:01:32.360 I've got a great one lined up for you today like I always do, but I just want to give
00:01:36.400 you a couple of quick announcements, and then we'll get into this.
00:01:39.380 First things first, if you would, I don't ask this very often, but it really does help.
00:01:43.380 Please, if you would, leave us an iTunes rating and review.
00:01:46.680 This is a great, relatively painless way for you to say thank you and spread the message
00:01:52.940 of the order, and also let the men in your lives know what it means to be a man and how
00:01:58.160 you might be making improvements in your life.
00:02:00.060 Second, make sure you join the almost 26,000 men now inside of our Facebook group.
00:02:06.960 We're having some incredible, incredible conversations about masculinity, including
00:02:10.600 the topic of today, which is that of being a nice guy.
00:02:13.900 You can do that at facebook.com slash groups slash order of men.
00:02:17.900 And third, if you're looking for something more than just this show or a couple of surface
00:02:22.760 level type conversations, if you're looking to find a program that's going to help you build
00:02:27.560 the life that you want as a man, I want you to consider joining our mastermind, the Iron
00:02:32.480 Council.
00:02:33.280 This is such an incredible brotherhood of men.
00:02:35.420 I've been blown away with the caliber of men who have joined us already.
00:02:38.780 It's great accountability to help you get where you want to be.
00:02:42.120 So you can find out more about that at order of men.com slash Iron Council.
00:02:46.540 Guys, I was only recently introduced to my guest's work just a couple of months ago, but after
00:02:52.720 reading his bestselling book, it's also a controversial book.
00:02:56.140 And if you've read it, you understand why it's no more Mr. Nice Guy.
00:02:59.940 I knew, I knew that I had to get Dr. Glover on the show.
00:03:03.820 This book spoke to me.
00:03:05.120 I am a recovering nice guy myself, as is Dr. Glover and the strategies that he shares
00:03:10.820 in the book saved my life and also saved my marriage roughly nine years ago.
00:03:16.820 This man has helped thousands of nice guys transform from behaving like these passive
00:03:22.520 victims that we see all over society today to empowered.
00:03:26.260 And the term that he uses is integrated males.
00:03:28.900 He's got books, online classes, courses, groups, workshops.
00:03:32.480 All of them are designed to help men take a more assertive role in their lives.
00:03:36.560 And today he's here to talk with us about overcoming the nice guy syndrome.
00:03:42.700 Robert, thank you for joining me on the show today.
00:03:44.880 Ryan, it's good to be with you.
00:03:46.200 Thanks for the invitation.
00:03:47.300 You bet.
00:03:47.660 This is a conversation, a long time in the works, although we've just been recently connected.
00:03:52.620 But I know a lot of the guys that listen to this podcast and read the blog are very
00:03:57.020 interested in the work you're doing.
00:03:58.620 I want to set some context for the discussion that we are going to have today about being
00:04:03.660 a quote unquote nice guy.
00:04:05.400 When I use that term and when you use that term, what are you referring to when it comes
00:04:09.780 to being a nice guy?
00:04:11.220 Okay, Ryan, when I use the word nice guy with a capital N and a capital G, I'm referring
00:04:17.360 to a guy who has a belief system, a paradigm, a roadmap that says, I've got to do it right.
00:04:23.320 I've got to make everybody happy.
00:04:25.100 I can't rock the boat.
00:04:26.540 I can't make a mistake.
00:04:28.200 It's a passively pleasing person who doesn't believe that he is just okay, just as he is.
00:04:34.820 So he's either got to become what he expects other people, what he thinks other people want
00:04:39.960 him to be and or hide things that he thinks other people might react negatively to.
00:04:45.340 And I think this falls in line with what you refer to as the nice guy myth, which you alluded
00:04:51.880 to, right, is being good means that I'll be accepted if I understand that correctly.
00:04:56.380 Well, the nice guys, we'll just kind of dive into this.
00:04:59.540 One of the core concepts that I write about around nice guy syndrome is that every nice
00:05:04.780 guy, as I define it, tends to operate by three covert contracts.
00:05:09.820 And these covert contracts all take the form of an if and a then.
00:05:15.160 And so if I do A, then B should always happen.
00:05:20.600 And nice guys have three fundamental covert contracts.
00:05:23.980 The first one, number one, is if I'm a nice guy, everybody will like me and love me.
00:05:30.260 And we can tack on to that.
00:05:31.900 The people I desire to have sex with will desire to have sex with me.
00:05:35.320 So if I'm nice, people will like me and love me.
00:05:38.920 The second covert contract of nice guys is if I meet other people's needs without them
00:05:45.760 having to ask, then they will meet my needs without me having to ask.
00:05:51.220 So nice guys tend to be givers.
00:05:52.900 We give a lot.
00:05:53.980 We do a lot.
00:05:55.040 We give surprises.
00:05:56.360 We think if I do these nice things for other people, they'll appreciate me and then they'll
00:06:00.720 give me back what I need.
00:06:02.000 And then the covert contract number three is that if I do everything right, then I should
00:06:09.220 have a smooth, problem-free world.
00:06:12.100 And nice guys think, OK, if I connect all the dots, cross all the T's, dot all the I's,
00:06:17.480 then everything should always work out OK.
00:06:20.460 My boss shouldn't get upset at me.
00:06:22.820 My girlfriend shouldn't dump me.
00:06:25.360 I shouldn't get sick.
00:06:26.460 My car shouldn't break down.
00:06:27.740 And nice guys really do believe these three core contracts with the world, with the universe,
00:06:34.440 with women, with everybody should work.
00:06:37.420 But the problem is they're all built on false assumptions.
00:06:41.020 And maybe the biggest, the two biggest problems are often the nice guy doesn't even know what
00:06:47.180 his contracts are, that he's operating out of these covert contracts that are all about
00:06:51.800 giving to get, and nobody else around them knows that the contracts exist, so they don't even know
00:06:57.980 what's expected of them.
00:06:59.860 Right.
00:07:00.120 You know, it's really fascinating.
00:07:01.460 I'm listening to you talk about this and the fact that a quote-unquote nice guy doesn't even
00:07:05.740 know about these things.
00:07:06.700 It's actually, I hear these covert contracts, and I think, isn't this obvious?
00:07:11.820 But apparently it's not.
00:07:13.380 I mean, you've been in this field of work for a long time.
00:07:15.400 How do we get to this stage where we think this way?
00:07:20.860 Because this goes against all that I believe, and maybe I've just developed a certain belief
00:07:26.220 system of my own over time.
00:07:27.460 How do we get to this stage of being a nice guy?
00:07:29.680 We all have internal belief systems, and becoming a nice guy probably starts out the same way
00:07:35.040 that the rest of us all develop our world paradigm.
00:07:38.040 When we are young, we're completely and totally dependent on our caregivers, and none of us
00:07:44.860 are born into perfect families with perfect parents or into a perfect world.
00:07:49.840 You know, maybe there's, I mean, any number of issues that might occur when we're children,
00:07:54.360 and often it's nobody's fault.
00:07:57.020 Maybe you're born and you're sick or needy, or your mother's depressed, or your dad's off
00:08:04.260 working, or dad isn't there, or you have a sick sibling that needs your parents' attention,
00:08:09.460 and you're kind of neglected, or, you know, maybe there's addiction in your family.
00:08:13.260 Who knows?
00:08:14.400 Maybe there's rigid religiosity.
00:08:18.460 Can't even spit the word out.
00:08:20.180 You know, but the thing is, we all are born to imperfect parents, and what happens with all
00:08:27.180 children, all children are by nature narcissistic.
00:08:30.560 They believe they are the center of the world.
00:08:32.680 Now, they don't think this, they're just wired that way, and a lot of this has to do with
00:08:37.440 just human evolution, that human beings have a long maturation process, meaning that as,
00:08:44.340 you know, some species of animals, you know, as soon as the baby pops out, they're on their
00:08:49.640 own.
00:08:50.300 With humans, we need someone to take care of us, for most of us, at least into our teenage
00:08:54.880 years.
00:08:55.480 And because of that, we are very dependent on our caregivers, and the state of our caregivers
00:09:02.980 determines the state of our well-being.
00:09:06.140 So all children, when they have either a negative or painful experience, whether it's an abandonment,
00:09:12.720 whether they're hungry and don't get fed soon enough, or their diaper's dirty and they don't
00:09:16.740 get changed, or, you know, mom's anxious, or dad yells, or, you know, any number of things,
00:09:23.320 children always internalize, I caused that.
00:09:27.000 That's my fault.
00:09:28.420 That's on me.
00:09:29.280 Now, they don't think this, because the human brain doesn't, as probably most of us know,
00:09:33.760 doesn't develop a verbal ability until, you know, two years old or so, and doesn't start
00:09:39.600 differentiating self from others until around two.
00:09:41.980 We tend to call that the terrible twos, which is a terrible name, and maybe we'll talk more
00:09:47.920 about that, because it has to do with our ability to differentiate as a self, and to know
00:09:52.680 what we want, and to go after that in life.
00:09:55.720 But also, the brain, say, in the average male, doesn't finish developing until around age 25.
00:10:02.920 But what is online in our operating system is a very primal part of our brain, centered
00:10:08.820 around the brainstem, called the amygdala.
00:10:10.800 And when things happen to us, the amygdala is the part of our brain wired in for self-preservation.
00:10:18.240 It's the fight, flight, freeze part of ourselves.
00:10:21.880 So that part is completely online when we're born.
00:10:25.120 So it gets activated by anything that feels like it could be a possible threat to us.
00:10:30.680 And depending on our genetic temperament, some of us tend to fight, some of us tend to run,
00:10:36.660 some of us tend to just cower and freeze.
00:10:39.280 Okay, as children, we don't like these negative feelings.
00:10:43.820 So all of us develop at least two types of defense mechanisms.
00:10:48.660 The first one is to try to cope with the negative feelings that we're having.
00:10:52.940 We try to do something to make ourselves feel better.
00:10:55.940 Maybe we cry.
00:10:57.020 Maybe we quit crying.
00:10:58.380 Maybe we suck our thumb.
00:11:00.100 Maybe, you know, we do various things to try to soothe and comfort ourselves.
00:11:04.280 The second thing that we try to do is we try to come up with a strategy.
00:11:08.820 Now, remember, most of this is before we can even have an analytical brain.
00:11:12.120 We just have an emotional brain.
00:11:14.660 Right.
00:11:14.840 And we just want to eliminate that negative emotion and encourage the positive emotions.
00:11:18.660 And we want to prevent those negative things from happening in the future.
00:11:23.500 So everybody develops this two-sided roadmap of life.
00:11:28.760 We do X to try to feel better when we feel bad, and we do Y to try to prevent the things
00:11:36.200 from happening in the future that made us feel bad now.
00:11:39.160 And as I said, we develop this roadmap, this strategy, these defense mechanisms, before
00:11:47.240 our analytical brain even comes online.
00:11:49.540 So what happens, these responses are very much wired into that emotional part of our
00:11:55.660 brain, that primitive part.
00:11:57.020 And then as the rest of our reasoning brain, our prefrontal cortex, comes online and continues
00:12:02.880 to develop into our early 20s, that primitive part of our brain is wired into, is hardwired
00:12:09.340 into the prefrontal cortex.
00:12:11.100 So it tends to influence all of our decision-making as children, teenagers, and adults.
00:12:16.920 So we often don't know why we reacted to this when our boss had that look on his face, or
00:12:22.720 why a certain type of woman turns us on, or why if we get rejected, we're devastated for
00:12:29.760 so we don't know why, but it's deeply wired into our emotions.
00:12:34.360 And then we kind of keep falling back to do those things that we learn to try to prevent
00:12:39.240 the pain or soothe the pain when it's there, and try to prevent it from happening in the
00:12:43.200 future.
00:12:44.420 One pattern for doing that is to be a nice guy.
00:12:47.920 That is, to try to never do anything that might upset your parents, to be needless and
00:12:52.880 wantless, so you don't get negative responses to your needs.
00:12:56.680 It's trying never to rock the boat, trying to always perform well so that you'll get
00:13:01.620 approval.
00:13:02.600 I mean, any number of manifestations of that pattern.
00:13:06.160 And if you grew up in a family and had more than one sibling, or more than just you, you
00:13:11.520 probably saw various patterns in your siblings of how they coped, and some might have been
00:13:16.000 similar to yours, and some might have been very different from yours.
00:13:19.240 You might have, if you were kind of the complacent, go-along-to-get-along child, you might have had a brother
00:13:24.880 or sister that was the rebellious, raising hell, you know, fuck you, I'll do what I
00:13:29.400 want, you can't control me.
00:13:30.740 It sounds like you know my family dynamic growing up.
00:13:34.920 I've seen a lot of similar dynamics.
00:13:36.780 I'm sure you have.
00:13:38.080 So how does a man go about recognizing this in himself?
00:13:42.620 Because you talk about paradigms, and I think sometimes we subscribe to these paradigms or
00:13:47.600 use them as coping or survival mechanisms like you talk about, and it would be very difficult
00:13:52.940 for us to recognize that we can actually change the way we think and therefore behave.
00:13:57.720 You know, most of us are not really good at looking inward at ourselves.
00:14:02.020 I mean, whether we call this self-evaluation, consciousness, you know, present moment awareness,
00:14:07.160 most of us are not real good at it.
00:14:09.540 We're kind of on the inside being driven by impulses and thought processes that we don't
00:14:15.480 evaluate.
00:14:16.100 We just assume every thought and impulse and reaction we have is appropriate, and everybody
00:14:22.960 would respond this way because we're feeling it.
00:14:26.480 Right.
00:14:26.580 And so for most of us, it isn't until we get really stuck or something just comes unraveled
00:14:34.300 on us or what we're doing isn't working and we've just been trying to do more of the same
00:14:39.580 of it to get it to work, it usually takes some kind of just severe stuckness or crisis
00:14:45.940 or something breaks, and then maybe we go looking for some answers.
00:14:51.140 Without maybe even knowing it, we go looking for some awareness to help us understand what's
00:14:56.040 happening, or we go looking for more tools to put in our toolbox to help us handle.
00:15:01.220 And what I found with most of the men who find me, they tend to find me at maybe about
00:15:08.000 one of three different junctures in life.
00:15:11.180 One, and this is often true with the younger men, is when they're really frustrated with
00:15:15.820 dating, when they just can't seem to get women's attention or they're just too shy or anxious
00:15:21.460 around women and, you know, never get out of their comfort zone or, you know, what women,
00:15:26.540 you know, maybe they do interact with, they end up in the friend zone.
00:15:29.180 And so for some guys, it really is, they just don't know how to find a mate.
00:15:33.800 They don't know how to find love and get laid.
00:15:35.920 So they go looking for answers.
00:15:37.560 And that's where some men find me.
00:15:39.580 Other men find me when their relationships just are not working very well.
00:15:44.640 And that's really when I started discovering my own nice guy patterns is when I just kept
00:15:49.100 trying harder and harder and harder to please the woman I was with.
00:15:52.380 And she just seemed to be unhappy.
00:15:54.820 I couldn't do enough.
00:15:55.760 I couldn't do it right.
00:15:56.720 I couldn't predict her moods and emotions.
00:15:59.360 It was never good enough.
00:16:01.100 She never wanted to have sex, even though she'd been highly sexual before we got married.
00:16:06.280 After we got married, it was like, you know, we'd go months without it.
00:16:10.000 And she'd be hostile towards me if I wanted it.
00:16:12.960 And I'm just thinking, you know, what's wrong with this picture?
00:16:15.680 Right.
00:16:16.020 Just as an aside, it was when I started working on those issues of when I started going to
00:16:21.600 therapy, mainly to figure out why me being a nice guy didn't make my wife treat me better.
00:16:26.360 And I started getting some insight into my paradigm.
00:16:30.360 I'm by training a marriage and family therapist.
00:16:32.580 So in my practice, I started noticing a lot of men coming in with their wives or girlfriends
00:16:37.520 saying the exact same things I was saying.
00:16:39.660 I'm a nice guy.
00:16:40.920 I'm I'm I'm so much better than the jerk she used to be with.
00:16:44.000 You know, I treat her well.
00:16:45.140 I raise her kids.
00:16:46.540 You know, I don't cheat on her.
00:16:48.340 You know, I you know, I'm good to her.
00:16:50.500 But it's never enough.
00:16:51.800 She's never happy.
00:16:52.700 She's always depressed.
00:16:53.760 She's always angry.
00:16:54.780 You know, she never wants to have sex.
00:16:56.480 I'm like, man, I can finish these guys sentences for them.
00:16:59.280 And that's when I started realizing I wasn't alone.
00:17:02.760 Maybe we can talk more about that a little bit if you want of how how that led to me writing
00:17:06.520 the book.
00:17:07.200 But then the third time, third kind of point in life for a lot of men seem to come to me
00:17:12.160 is often at the end of a long term relationship.
00:17:15.300 Maybe they're in their 40s or 50s, been married 20 something years.
00:17:19.720 Maybe their kids are about grown or grown.
00:17:22.640 And and finally, they or their wife, you know, just, you know, pull the string on and get divorced.
00:17:29.240 And here they are.
00:17:30.140 You know, they've been married for years.
00:17:31.980 They don't know what went wrong.
00:17:33.840 They don't know how to go out and start over and start relationships.
00:17:37.780 They know they could, you know, they know there's so much more open to them.
00:17:41.740 So a lot of guys kind of when they were like a divorce or an end of a relationship and kind
00:17:46.800 of midlife stage, a lot of men find me at that time as well.
00:17:51.000 Yeah.
00:17:51.420 I mean, this makes sense because I know for me, you said we a couple of times, as in
00:17:56.420 you are maybe a recovering nice guy, which you've alluded to.
00:17:59.420 And I can definitely fall into that camp as well.
00:18:02.320 I've talked with a lot of the guys that listen to this podcast about my separation with my
00:18:07.940 wife, which was roughly nine years ago.
00:18:10.320 And it was and you can attest to this and because of the work that you're doing, it was
00:18:14.260 literally the darkest time in my life.
00:18:16.900 But I needed that to realize that I had placed so much emphasis on everybody but myself.
00:18:22.920 And what was really fascinating to me is when I went to work on myself and quote unquote
00:18:27.960 became maybe a little bit selfish, it was very fascinating to see how my wife responded
00:18:33.620 to that.
00:18:35.060 I'd like to get your take on this idea of being selfish because I assume a nice guy doesn't
00:18:40.880 want to be selfish and he wants to be pleasing and serving to other people.
00:18:45.200 But I think there's a healthy balance.
00:18:47.200 Yeah.
00:18:47.280 If you want to manipulate a nice guy to get him to do what you want, call him selfish because,
00:18:53.340 you know, oh, no, no, I'm not selfish.
00:18:55.260 Remember those covert contracts?
00:18:56.760 I do this.
00:18:57.440 I do this.
00:18:58.100 I do this.
00:18:59.120 You know, I'm not selfish.
00:19:00.120 And we don't want to perceive of ourselves or be seen by others in a negative way.
00:19:05.580 And in our culture, the word selfish pretty much only gets used when people want to manipulate
00:19:10.860 somebody else to do what they want.
00:19:12.520 And I talk in the book that I tell guys, hey, I, when I look up the word selfish in
00:19:18.600 the dictionary, I want to see your picture.
00:19:20.820 Now, what I'm talking about, and I'm not talking about, you know, the asshole that only
00:19:25.920 cares about himself and doesn't give a fuck about anybody else.
00:19:29.200 I'm talking about a mature, individuated adult who has a healthy self-interest in
00:19:35.960 themselves.
00:19:36.440 And they've surrounded themselves, I call them cooperative reciprocal systems.
00:19:41.800 We've surrounded ourselves with other people, with professionals, with organizations in which
00:19:47.820 everybody involved gets something of value out of it.
00:19:51.660 With our friends, there's a give and take.
00:19:54.100 We enjoy being with them.
00:19:55.260 They enjoy being with us.
00:19:56.960 A love relationship where we're both getting something out of it of value or we wouldn't be
00:20:01.440 there.
00:20:02.220 You and I have a reciprocal relationship right now.
00:20:04.920 You're getting something out of it.
00:20:06.800 I'm getting something out of it.
00:20:08.300 Your listeners will get something out of it.
00:20:10.420 Maybe my book sales will get something out of it.
00:20:13.080 It's a reciprocal relationship.
00:20:15.140 And we have these with our doctors, our accountants, our attorneys, our trainer at the gym.
00:20:21.800 As long as everybody's getting something of value and it's very overt, that works well.
00:20:27.180 That's being selfish.
00:20:28.420 That's having a healthy self-interest.
00:20:30.140 And the funny thing is, contrary to the nice guy paradigm, see, nice guys seem to be pretty
00:20:36.400 empty because we're walking around with this covert contract waiting for somebody else to
00:20:40.240 fill us up.
00:20:41.160 We're emptying the bucket out for everybody else, but we're not putting anything back in.
00:20:45.880 And maybe we haven't surrounded ourselves with other people to help put something back
00:20:50.280 in the bucket.
00:20:51.280 And here's a little secret.
00:20:53.120 Nice guys are terrible receivers.
00:20:55.260 We are not very good at letting people give to us or do things for us.
00:20:59.800 We feel guilty.
00:21:01.060 We feel indebted.
00:21:02.120 We feel like people are going to think we're bad.
00:21:04.940 I mean, all kinds of negative stuff comes up for nice guys when it comes to receiving.
00:21:09.700 But here's the paradox.
00:21:11.820 If you are, I call it creating your great cake of a life.
00:21:15.240 If you're out there doing good things for yourself, connecting with men, pursuing your
00:21:19.820 passions, getting to the gym on a regular basis, you have some kind of self-awareness, self-improvement,
00:21:26.440 spiritual practice in your life, you're giving your gift to the world, you're going to be
00:21:31.240 a really attractive man.
00:21:34.120 And that has nothing to do with your physical features, even though it does affect your physical
00:21:38.460 features and how your face looks, how you stand, how you walk, how you carry yourself.
00:21:43.980 Well, people will find that really attractive without them even knowing you or knowing why
00:21:49.420 they're attracted to you.
00:21:50.760 Yeah.
00:21:51.300 One of the things, if I can real quick is, I think this is a common thread within the
00:21:56.120 book, is this idea, because you go through a couple of case studies, quite a few actually,
00:22:01.780 and it seems like the underlying thread is that the women in these types of relationships
00:22:06.060 with nice guys feel overwhelmed.
00:22:08.740 They feel swamped, because it's not like this man wants necessarily to be in this relationship.
00:22:15.200 It's like he needs to be, and therefore this woman, in this case, seems like she's now the
00:22:20.920 caretaker of this child, I guess is how I would say it.
00:22:25.380 Yeah.
00:22:25.660 You've hit the nail on the head.
00:22:27.120 And of course, every nice guy is different.
00:22:29.200 Every relationship dynamic is different.
00:22:31.220 But one of the analogies I use, people that are closer to my age will remember this.
00:22:36.640 I don't remember what year it was, but I remember when Ross Perot was running for president.
00:22:41.860 And he kept referring, and he had this kind of characteristic thing.
00:22:45.400 He said, you hear that big, loud sucking sound?
00:22:48.540 He said, that's the federal government sucking money out of your pocket.
00:22:53.020 And I use that analogy for nice guys when they approach relationship.
00:22:58.040 It's this big sucking sound, because they're so empty inside.
00:23:01.800 It creates this vacuum, and like you said, we need to create this codependent relationship
00:23:07.460 with another, so that as we take care of them, we'll be taken care of.
00:23:12.600 And I'm a straight guy, and most of the men I've worked with in counseling are straight,
00:23:17.000 but I've worked with a number of gay guys as well.
00:23:19.360 So I'll usually refer to the male-female interaction.
00:23:22.660 But it's the same.
00:23:23.860 If we're approaching somebody from this place of emptiness, oftentimes the other person can
00:23:30.760 feel that.
00:23:31.660 They don't know what it is they feel.
00:23:33.880 And I know a lot of times women especially can be really perceptive to that, those negative
00:23:38.820 feelings that comes from that big old sucking sound of the emptiness of the man.
00:23:43.900 And what happens for a lot of nice guys is we develop this internal belief system.
00:23:48.860 Oh, women just aren't attracted to me.
00:23:51.760 And we think it's something physical about us, or we're boring, or we're losers, and
00:23:55.820 they can see it.
00:23:56.940 But one of the core things is we're just not bringing anything to the table.
00:24:01.020 We're just bringing that big empty sucking sound that most women or most people of the
00:24:06.740 opposite sex, whether we're straight or gay or whoever we're approaching, it'll feel
00:24:11.060 negative to them.
00:24:11.880 And even if they think we're a nice person, they'll want to push that away.
00:24:15.320 And then we think, oh, see, everybody can see what a loser I am.
00:24:19.500 I don't know what your experience was with your ex-wife, but I found that a lot of guys
00:24:23.400 after they split and start taking care of themselves, maybe go to a men's group, they
00:24:28.720 start getting to the gym, they start rediscovering the passions they'd given up to be in the relationship
00:24:33.600 and maybe start spending more time with men, maybe take a little road trip or two.
00:24:38.640 And then all of a sudden, they start looking like this really attractive guy to the ex.
00:24:43.300 And especially if you tell her no a time or two, then you look even more attractive to
00:24:48.660 them.
00:24:49.320 And then we're going, what's going on here?
00:24:51.800 Why didn't she have this interest in me back when I wanted to be with her?
00:24:55.780 Well, I can tell you, fortunately, my wife and I salvaged our marriage and we have been
00:24:59.840 married.
00:25:00.220 This year will be 13 years.
00:25:02.040 And in large part, thank you.
00:25:03.620 Yeah.
00:25:03.780 In large part to me not needing her and her not needing me and us being able to stand on
00:25:09.460 our own two feet without each other.
00:25:10.800 Yeah, that's healthy interdependency.
00:25:13.680 That's way different than codependency or another term for it is borrowed functioning.
00:25:19.480 You know, we just kind of lean on each other so much because we can't stand on our own and
00:25:24.780 we just wear each other out and we don't bring anything to the party.
00:25:29.140 And so the other person gets bored with us and we all get resentful with each other because
00:25:34.340 we think the other person isn't doing what they're supposed to do to make us happy.
00:25:38.280 And then we just pick at each other.
00:25:40.520 So yeah, I've been there.
00:25:41.640 I've done that.
00:25:42.500 Yeah.
00:25:42.720 So I was going to ask you the question of how do you begin to bring something to the
00:25:46.840 table?
00:25:47.140 But after hearing you reframe this a little bit, I don't think it's about bringing
00:25:50.840 something to the table.
00:25:51.860 I think it's just about being yourself and filling your own cup.
00:25:55.320 Am I understanding this correctly?
00:25:56.880 Yeah.
00:25:57.180 And as you do that, you've got something to offer other people and not just intimate
00:26:02.980 relationship, but to your friends and to the world as well.
00:26:06.120 When you're filling your cup up and kind of living in your authentic self and doing what
00:26:12.720 feels right to you, giving your gift to the world, leaning into challenges, it's going
00:26:19.260 to make you an attractive person.
00:26:20.820 And now I'm 61 years old as we talk.
00:26:25.220 I try to take care of myself.
00:26:27.020 I exercise.
00:26:28.200 I'm good to myself.
00:26:30.120 And I just got married in November.
00:26:32.680 Congratulations.
00:26:33.360 And it's my third try at it.
00:26:35.400 I'm thinking I stumbled in finally to what I was trying to stumble into other times before.
00:26:41.480 But for example, my wife is 22 years younger than me.
00:26:44.620 And I didn't go looking for a younger woman.
00:26:46.520 In fact, I wasn't even looking for her.
00:26:47.840 She told me the first time she saw me, she saw me walking up the street and she said
00:26:52.600 she felt immediately attracted to me.
00:26:56.200 Just how I was walking up the street towards where she was standing.
00:27:00.480 And she felt an immediate attraction.
00:27:03.560 My experience has been as I dated on and off over say about the last, I got divorced from
00:27:10.620 my second ex-wife in 03.
00:27:13.080 So over the last 14 years or so, I've consistently heard women tell me, and by the way, most of
00:27:19.220 the women attracted to me seem to be significantly younger than me.
00:27:22.660 I don't go looking for them.
00:27:23.980 I don't have an ego thing around that.
00:27:26.180 Women my own age don't seem to see me, I guess.
00:27:29.540 But, and these women always tell me they were attracted to just something.
00:27:33.840 They just felt something.
00:27:35.040 The way I walked, you know, they'll say, well, like, you know, your shaved head or your
00:27:39.440 hands.
00:27:40.040 And I'm thinking, wait a minute, you didn't just like, you know, decided you wanted to
00:27:44.480 be with me because you like my hands and my head.
00:27:46.820 And there's plenty of guys that have good hands and a shaved head, right?
00:27:51.100 Yeah.
00:27:51.420 Or, or walk the way I walk.
00:27:53.240 And so it's not really those things I really think is more energetic than that.
00:27:59.220 That when you're comfortable in your own skin and you're walking the planet at peace
00:28:04.400 with yourself and you're bringing a gift to the world around you and you've got an
00:28:09.600 energy about you, people will be attracted to that.
00:28:13.680 And they may not even know why.
00:28:15.220 They'll put a name on it, but who knows?
00:28:18.040 It's energetic.
00:28:20.760 Gentlemen, let me take a quick pause to tell you briefly about our exclusive mastermind,
00:28:25.160 The Iron Council.
00:28:25.940 If you are not familiar with it yet, I do invite you to see what we're all about.
00:28:29.060 And find out exactly, exactly what's included in your membership at orderofman.com slash
00:28:34.620 Iron Council.
00:28:35.760 In the meantime, I want you to know that if you're seriously committed to being a better
00:28:40.980 father, a better husband, businessman, community leader, just a better man overall, sometimes
00:28:45.780 all that you might be lacking is the right set of tools and the right information.
00:28:50.780 We've got exactly what you need, including weekly challenges that are designed to push
00:28:55.640 you outside of your comfort zone.
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00:29:02.380 the accountability structures in place to ensure that you're taking your life to the
00:29:07.060 next level in an area that you have identified, that you've personally identified as being
00:29:11.140 important to you.
00:29:12.140 If you are interested in joining us and claiming your seat at the table, you can do that at
00:29:16.420 orderofman.com slash Iron Council.
00:29:18.900 Again, that's orderofman.com slash Iron Council.
00:29:21.200 Now let's get back to the conversation with Dr. Glover.
00:29:26.540 I want to jump back to the win-win conversation we were having a couple of minutes ago.
00:29:31.460 And one of the things that you had said inside of these, I think I'm saying the term correctly,
00:29:36.020 the cooperative reciprocal systems.
00:29:37.860 Did I say that right?
00:29:38.940 Yeah.
00:29:39.080 You know, I turn it around every which way as well.
00:29:41.260 I can never remember, you know, when I've written it, how did I write it?
00:29:45.360 So yeah.
00:29:45.860 So whether it's cooperative reciprocal systems or reciprocal cooperative systems or systems
00:29:50.620 of cooperative reciprocal, it doesn't matter.
00:29:53.020 We all get it, right?
00:29:54.800 You got the words right.
00:29:55.840 So I want to talk about creating win-wins.
00:29:58.640 And one of the things, the terms that you used was over, just making sure that everybody
00:30:02.840 understands and is on the same page.
00:30:05.580 This is obviously a communication conversation we're having now.
00:30:08.880 How does somebody who may be passive or even passive aggressive, which I assume nice guys
00:30:13.700 are, both of those, become more assertive in what he might need in a relationship, whether
00:30:19.860 that's with a boss or a coworker or an intimate relationship?
00:30:24.100 Well, I will say how it began for me.
00:30:26.120 And it began for me in therapy.
00:30:28.440 Really what therapy is, it's an act of going to another person and saying, I need something
00:30:33.640 and I'm going to pay you to help me get that.
00:30:36.120 And we may not even know what it is.
00:30:37.820 Maybe we need understanding or insight or new skill sets or acceptance or the feeling
00:30:45.580 of being loved and valued, you know, and maybe all of those things.
00:30:49.820 And for me, it was actually a fairly slow process of basically beginning to show up and, okay,
00:30:56.800 I'm paying good money for this hour or I'm paying good money for these two hours of a group
00:31:01.560 that I'm in and starting to take up some space and make my needs known and accept what other
00:31:09.260 people gave me, even though I was paying for it.
00:31:12.200 As I said, nice guys are really bad receivers and I'm speaking from personal experience.
00:31:17.480 So for me, it began in therapy and it began with me saying, I'm going to go pay somebody
00:31:23.140 and spend time taking good care of me.
00:31:26.300 And since then, like I've hired personal trainers or, you know, the past personal golf coach,
00:31:32.760 you know, golf swing coaches or, you know, personal, I've hired accountants.
00:31:37.860 And so basically, it really begins with you making your own needs a priority and starting
00:31:44.560 to do good things for you and then consciously starting to surround yourself with people who
00:31:50.160 are available to give to you.
00:31:51.900 Whether you're paying them or you just notice whenever you're with them, you and them seem
00:31:57.880 to have a good time and enjoy it.
00:32:00.180 For me, it began with just making the decision, I'm going to go pay somebody to give to me.
00:32:05.020 And then I just started doing that more and more.
00:32:08.160 And for example, in some of my online classes that I teach, one of the most common assignments
00:32:14.300 that I will give people is to ask three people a day to do something for you that you can
00:32:21.560 do yourself.
00:32:22.620 Interesting.
00:32:23.660 That's one of those breaking through type assignments you talk about in the book, I
00:32:26.460 believe.
00:32:27.260 Yeah.
00:32:27.700 And it involves you doing something out of your comfort zone and then listening to those
00:32:32.480 voices that scream at you and then pay attention.
00:32:35.100 What are those voices saying actually?
00:32:37.120 Oh, you can't do that or you can do it yourself or people think you're lazy or people think you're
00:32:41.940 selfish or people are too busy, they don't have time.
00:32:44.980 So then all of a sudden, those deep emotional memories that got stored up when we were young
00:32:49.260 will start screaming at us when we make a conscious decision to step out of the paradigm, to do a
00:32:55.280 very conscious act that goes 180 degrees opposite of our paradigm.
00:33:00.880 So this is going to the notion of facing your fears, right?
00:33:05.460 Doing things that are uncomfortable, doing things that are outside of your comfort zone, which
00:33:09.120 you talk about as being a huge step towards becoming, or I should say becoming more assertive
00:33:15.940 or less of that nice guy, right?
00:33:18.360 It's essential.
00:33:19.440 One of the most life-changing books I've ever read, I read it when I was going through my
00:33:24.880 first divorce and I say it saved my life, is a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway
00:33:29.720 by Susan Jeffers.
00:33:31.760 I mean, I have such fond affection for this woman.
00:33:33.860 She passed away of cancer just a few years ago and I never met her, never talked to her,
00:33:37.540 tried to find her address to send her an email, never could.
00:33:41.520 But man, I give this woman credit for just shifting my life because she basically says
00:33:46.160 in this book, she talks about three levels of fear and whether it's a fear of I'll be
00:33:50.920 embarrassed or a fear I'm going to get sick or a fear that I'm going to lose something
00:33:54.660 important to me or a fear I'm going to die.
00:33:56.900 She says at the core of all fears is a core belief that I can't handle it.
00:34:02.840 I can't handle being embarrassed.
00:34:04.100 I can't handle getting rejected.
00:34:05.720 I can't handle somebody being mad at me.
00:34:07.340 I can't handle getting sick or I can't handle the idea of dying.
00:34:12.160 And there's enough in the book that she talks about how to work with that.
00:34:15.400 But a takeaway for me was just an internal mantra that no matter what happens, I'll handle
00:34:21.100 it.
00:34:21.680 And I've been repeating that for 30 years.
00:34:23.920 And a core thing that she talks about, as long as you're alive and challenging yourself,
00:34:29.680 i.e. growing as a human being, you're going to have fear.
00:34:33.660 It's never going to go away.
00:34:35.260 And one thing with nice guys, we don't like to feel afraid.
00:34:38.480 We have a fairly low tolerance for frustration and anxiety.
00:34:42.200 So we tend to play it safe and do what worked last time.
00:34:45.540 But nothing ever changes in our life.
00:34:47.960 And the most significant changes come when we just start doing the little things that
00:34:53.160 scare us.
00:34:53.740 And I've made that my personal roadmap since I turned 40.
00:34:59.660 So for 21 years now, if it scares me, I think, OK, what do I need to do to lean into this
00:35:05.600 thing?
00:35:05.840 I don't want this thing controlling me.
00:35:07.880 It sounds like what I'm hearing you say when you talk about this is that nice guys probably
00:35:13.460 tend to be very controlling and even attempt to control things outside of their control,
00:35:19.080 which I'm sure causes a lot of frustration.
00:35:21.200 You're talking about being more spontaneous and just letting things go in a way, it sounds
00:35:24.660 like.
00:35:25.500 Yeah.
00:35:25.680 I guess, you know, me, that's my like I said, I'm on my third marriage, my third family.
00:35:33.320 And for some reason, everybody that knows me, including my mother and my granddaughter,
00:35:38.340 who's 10, tend to refer to me as being controlling.
00:35:41.600 And I always say, no, I'm not controlling.
00:35:44.040 I just like things the way I like them.
00:35:46.180 But the big difference is I don't try to control anybody else.
00:35:49.520 I used to.
00:35:50.160 I used to with my covert contracts, that subtle manipulation or not so subtle, as you
00:35:56.000 mentioned, leads to a lot of passive aggressiveness.
00:35:58.600 It can lead to something that my ex-wife used to refer to as victim pukes, where you think,
00:36:04.560 hey, I've done my share of the contract.
00:36:06.460 You haven't been doing yours.
00:36:07.640 I've been resentful about this for months now.
00:36:09.860 I'm going to puke out every resentment I have, you know, and you're not going to even
00:36:13.880 know where it's all coming from or why.
00:36:15.840 So, yes, nice guys do tend to be controlling, even though that's kind of like the
00:36:20.140 word selfish.
00:36:20.940 We think, oh, don't say I'm controlling.
00:36:22.420 That makes me a bad person.
00:36:23.960 Probably we're all controlling in some form or another.
00:36:28.300 And, yeah, I think that some of the important lessons in life are learning to let go of control
00:36:33.060 of what we don't have control over and take charge of what we do have some control over.
00:36:38.200 For me, that might mean, well, facing some fears.
00:36:41.100 I can't control the outcome, but I can control my choice and how I deal with it.
00:36:45.820 And even though some people may say you're controlling to try to manage you and get you
00:36:51.240 to do what they want, the truth is when you live life on your terms and say, okay, I'm
00:36:56.860 doing it my way and it'll either work or it won't work.
00:36:59.820 In my experience, it just goes a hell of a lot better than trying to, you know, lick your
00:37:04.280 finger and hold it up and see which way the wind's blowing and try to do it everybody else's
00:37:07.940 way.
00:37:08.200 That never works.
00:37:10.020 So even if that comes across as looking like, well, you're a little bit controlling or, you
00:37:15.460 know, you always got to have it your way.
00:37:17.100 I'm actually a very generous, flexible person.
00:37:20.260 But it begins by asking myself, what do I want?
00:37:24.380 What's important to me?
00:37:25.760 What feels right to me?
00:37:27.840 And then doing it.
00:37:29.260 And that's actually my definition of maturity or integrity or differentiation.
00:37:35.020 I use the same definition for all those three terms is asking yourself, what do I want?
00:37:40.440 What's important to me?
00:37:41.560 What feels right to me?
00:37:43.420 And then doing it, even when you get resistance from the outside, i.e. people telling you you're
00:37:49.060 controlling or selfish or resistance from the inside between your own ears of saying, oh,
00:37:55.200 you know, you're being selfish or you're going to piss some people off or somebody's
00:37:59.300 going to be disappointed with you.
00:38:00.760 You got to do it on your terms.
00:38:02.320 There's no other way to do it.
00:38:03.440 And I think one of the things that I really liked about the book you talked about towards
00:38:07.940 the end, and I think this ties into what we're talking about here is the healthy male
00:38:12.040 rule, which is a very simple question, essentially, that I think will help you move forward with
00:38:19.380 a maybe more of a clear path when you do come up against some of this resistance.
00:38:23.300 Do you mind going through that?
00:38:24.920 Actually, I haven't read my book in 15 years.
00:38:27.940 I'll tell you what it says.
00:38:29.020 This almost never happens.
00:38:30.920 Okay.
00:38:31.260 Well, what is the healthy male rule?
00:38:32.820 What did I say?
00:38:33.520 Essentially, the question is, what would a healthy male do?
00:38:38.260 That's the question.
00:38:40.080 That's a great question to ask.
00:38:42.220 What would a healthy male do?
00:38:44.460 And I do ask myself that.
00:38:46.300 And I usually ask myself one of two questions when I feel stuck or afraid is I'll ask, what
00:38:51.940 would a healthy male do?
00:38:53.660 And I will ask myself, if I had no fear in this situation, what would I do?
00:38:58.800 And it's amazing how simple and quickly the answers often come when you just ask, if I
00:39:04.740 had no fear, well, what would a healthy male do in this situation?
00:39:08.060 The answer is usually right there.
00:39:10.580 It's just our anxiety, our fear, our shame is blocking us from just accessing it as easily
00:39:18.220 as it is.
00:39:19.580 Right, right.
00:39:20.540 Well, Robert, this is a fascinating discussion.
00:39:22.960 We aren't even, we've talked about a lot.
00:39:25.240 We've gone a lot of different places, but I know there's so much more to this and I've
00:39:28.480 applied a lot of it in my life and still have a lot to go.
00:39:31.520 As we wind down on time, I want to ask you a couple of additional questions.
00:39:34.540 The first one being, what does it mean to be a man?
00:39:38.380 You know, you told me ahead of time you were going to ask me that question and I haven't
00:39:42.080 even thought about it until you asked about the healthy male rule.
00:39:45.860 I want to tell a story, if I can, to answer it.
00:39:49.060 And it's not even, well, it is a story about me peripherally, but here's the story.
00:39:55.120 I'm going to guess 10 or so years ago, maybe a little longer ago than that, I was with a
00:40:00.180 buddy and we were at a 4th of July celebration in Tacoma, Washington.
00:40:06.400 I lived in that area at the time and they closed off the main street along the waterfront.
00:40:11.360 They had air shows, they had booths with food, fireworks at night.
00:40:15.500 So about 200,000 people during the day and night show up for this Freedom Fest in Tacoma.
00:40:22.760 And I was walking with my buddy, it was actually a warm, sunny day in July, which is actually
00:40:27.060 kind of unusual in Seattle, believe it or not.
00:40:29.740 And we're walking along, just talking, and it's just, it's crowded.
00:40:34.000 A lot of people in the street that were as closed off.
00:40:36.920 And we came up on a group of teenage boys.
00:40:39.660 I don't know how old they were, 15, 16, not real old.
00:40:43.180 And there was two boys kind of with their fists up, kind of circling each other, kind
00:40:49.240 of, you know, squaring off with each other.
00:40:51.240 And my friend and I walked up on that and there were several, I mean, it was quite a fairly
00:40:56.180 large group of people standing around kind of watching this thing and nothing was really
00:41:00.560 happening.
00:41:01.400 And kind of from my own internal point of view, I watched and one of the boys looked a little
00:41:06.580 bit tougher and more aggressive.
00:41:07.960 And it looked like he had several buddies with him.
00:41:10.620 The other guy looked somewhat more scared and anxious, but maybe it was a situation he
00:41:17.380 just figured, okay, I'm taking enough.
00:41:19.240 I can't back down.
00:41:20.620 But like I said, they hadn't really come to blows, but they were circling each other with
00:41:24.620 their fist up and I'm with my buddy and I didn't even know what to do.
00:41:28.960 You know, there's a lot of gangs in the area.
00:41:31.620 You don't know what you're going to walk in the middle of.
00:41:34.440 And so I was just standing there and I could tell they really didn't want to fight.
00:41:38.640 Otherwise, they probably would have already been fighting.
00:41:41.160 And they're both posturing.
00:41:43.000 And about that time, an African-American man, about my height, about six foot tall, with
00:41:49.100 his like two-year-old daughter up on his shoulders, you know, straddling his shoulders.
00:41:53.440 He's holding her hands and she's sitting on his shoulders.
00:41:56.480 He just comes walking up as calm as he could be, walks right between the two boys and said,
00:42:02.680 you guys break this up and get out of here.
00:42:04.980 And just keeps on walking.
00:42:07.660 And both boys had a look of relief on their face like, oh, fuck, we don't have to fight.
00:42:13.180 We have an out now.
00:42:14.640 And the guy just kept walking and the boys, you know, took off different directions.
00:42:19.140 And I looked at my buddy and I said, I want to be like that guy.
00:42:23.460 He just defined for me what I want to be like, what that healthy male looks like that.
00:42:28.500 I mean, he didn't get aggressive.
00:42:30.160 He had his little daughter on his shoulders, but he was clear.
00:42:33.900 He was direct.
00:42:35.100 He did exactly what needed to be done in that situation.
00:42:38.720 And believe it or not, I still get tears in my eyes when when I relive that, you know,
00:42:43.360 talk about it, because to me, it's like, I don't know where he came from or where he went.
00:42:48.340 Maybe he didn't even exist.
00:42:50.100 I don't know.
00:42:51.480 But he changed my life.
00:42:53.420 And for me, to be a man is a person who in every situation is conscious, is present,
00:43:01.940 takes action, and in some way makes the world a better place for him having been there.
00:43:08.160 Such a powerful story.
00:43:09.340 Such a powerful explanation.
00:43:10.760 I love it.
00:43:11.360 I love it.
00:43:11.860 Great.
00:43:12.620 Well, Robert, how do we connect with you?
00:43:14.060 If we want to learn more about the book, if we want to learn about your work, if we want
00:43:17.460 to connect with you, how do we do that?
00:43:19.480 Okay.
00:43:19.820 As simple as getting on the internet and going to drglover.com.
00:43:24.780 That's D-R-G-L-O-V-E-R.com.
00:43:28.680 I've got an online university with self-help courses that I offer year-round.
00:43:33.620 People can check those out.
00:43:34.820 I've got over 200 podcasts available on pretty much every subject, especially around dating,
00:43:40.420 but around love and life and relationship and work and career.
00:43:44.760 You can access my book there as well.
00:43:47.880 I've got a blog.
00:43:49.820 So, yeah, just go to drglover.com and poke around and see if anything looks helpful to you.
00:43:56.300 Good.
00:43:56.520 We'll make sure we link that up.
00:43:57.700 I do have to let you know that I appreciate you.
00:43:59.600 I do appreciate your work.
00:44:01.040 As I was reading your book, in a way, you were writing my past existence and the book
00:44:06.860 really resonated with me.
00:44:07.980 And certainly, some of the concepts that you shared have definitely helped me in not only
00:44:12.640 my relationship, but growing this business.
00:44:14.460 So, I do have to tell you, I appreciate you and definitely I'm appreciative of your time
00:44:19.380 and you coming and imparting some of your wisdom today.
00:44:21.320 Thanks for coming on the show.
00:44:22.880 Well, you're welcome.
00:44:23.660 And, of course, I always do like hearing that, that how I've walked the planet has made a
00:44:28.280 difference.
00:44:28.680 So, thank you for sharing that.
00:44:31.440 Man, I hope you enjoyed that episode.
00:44:33.520 I know that I did.
00:44:34.480 In fact, this may have been one of my favorite podcasts to date.
00:44:38.940 Make sure, if you have not already done this, to go check out Dr. Glover's work.
00:44:43.080 Buy his book.
00:44:43.980 It's a quick read.
00:44:44.880 You will not be disappointed.
00:44:46.060 I promise you that.
00:44:47.080 If you're interested in that book or any of the links that we talked about today, head to
00:44:50.420 orderaman.com slash 109.
00:44:53.520 And in the meantime, and again, if you're ready for that next step, if you're ready to
00:44:57.460 take your life to the next level, make sure you join us inside of our mastermind.
00:45:00.980 Again, this is called The Iron Council.
00:45:02.860 And this month, we're talking about the concept of stoicism.
00:45:06.360 And specifically this week, we're talking about what it means to take action with regards
00:45:11.220 to stoicism and, of course, how we can use that action to enhance our lives.
00:45:15.760 If you're interested in learning more about what we're up to and all that is included in
00:45:18.720 your membership, head to orderaman.com slash ironcouncil.
00:45:22.220 I hope to see you inside.
00:45:23.640 I will look forward to talking to you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes.
00:45:26.860 But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:45:31.540 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
00:45:34.500 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:45:38.160 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.