Order of Man - 109： No More Mr. Nice Guy ｜ Dr. Robert Glover

00:00:00.000 If you are anything like me, you are a recovering nice guy, or maybe you're still a nice guy.

00:00:05.140 A lot of men may hear that and wonder what's wrong with being nice, and there's nothing

00:00:08.460 wrong with being nice until it comes at the expense of your own well-being.

00:00:12.640 My guest today, author of the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, Dr. Robert Glover, joins me

00:00:16.840 to talk about the myth of the nice guy, common negative symptoms the nice guy experiences,

00:00:21.840 how to implement the healthy male rule, and how you can eliminate the nice guy once and

00:00:27.060 for all.

00:00:27.480 You're a man of action, you live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly

00:00:32.500 chart your own path.

00:00:33.780 When life knocks you down, you get back up, one more time, every time.

00:00:38.200 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:43.260 This is your life, this is who you are, this is who you will become.

00:00:47.520 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:53.020 Men, what is going on today?

00:00:54.180 My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, Order of Man.

00:00:59.100 This is a brotherhood.

00:01:00.100 This is an organization.

00:01:01.240 It's a group of men, all dedicated to reclaiming what it means to be a man.

00:01:05.460 Gentlemen, I am sure that you recognize just as much as I have that the world is in need

00:01:10.220 of more and more men.

00:01:11.860 More fathers to step up in their homes, more husbands to fulfill that role in a marriage,

00:01:17.780 more virtuous leaders in business, stronger men in the community, just better men in general.

00:01:22.240 So if you have a desire to be that kind of man, you are in the right place.

00:01:26.960 If not, stick around, and maybe by the end of the show, you will have a desire to be that

00:01:31.740 kind of man.

00:01:32.360 I've got a great one lined up for you today like I always do, but I just want to give

00:01:36.400 you a couple of quick announcements, and then we'll get into this.

00:01:39.380 First things first, if you would, I don't ask this very often, but it really does help.

00:01:43.380 Please, if you would, leave us an iTunes rating and review.

00:01:46.680 This is a great, relatively painless way for you to say thank you and spread the message

00:01:52.940 of the order, and also let the men in your lives know what it means to be a man and how

00:01:58.160 you might be making improvements in your life.

00:02:00.060 Second, make sure you join the almost 26,000 men now inside of our Facebook group.

00:02:06.960 We're having some incredible, incredible conversations about masculinity, including

00:02:10.600 the topic of today, which is that of being a nice guy.

00:02:13.900 You can do that at facebook.com slash groups slash order of men.

00:02:17.900 And third, if you're looking for something more than just this show or a couple of surface

00:02:22.760 level type conversations, if you're looking to find a program that's going to help you build

00:02:27.560 the life that you want as a man, I want you to consider joining our mastermind, the Iron

00:02:32.480 Council.

00:02:33.280 This is such an incredible brotherhood of men.

00:02:35.420 I've been blown away with the caliber of men who have joined us already.

00:02:38.780 It's great accountability to help you get where you want to be.

00:02:42.120 So you can find out more about that at order of men.com slash Iron Council.

00:02:46.540 Guys, I was only recently introduced to my guest's work just a couple of months ago, but after

00:02:52.720 reading his bestselling book, it's also a controversial book.

00:02:56.140 And if you've read it, you understand why it's no more Mr. Nice Guy.

00:02:59.940 I knew, I knew that I had to get Dr. Glover on the show.

00:03:03.820 This book spoke to me.

00:03:05.120 I am a recovering nice guy myself, as is Dr. Glover and the strategies that he shares

00:03:10.820 in the book saved my life and also saved my marriage roughly nine years ago.

00:03:16.820 This man has helped thousands of nice guys transform from behaving like these passive

00:03:22.520 victims that we see all over society today to empowered.

00:03:26.260 And the term that he uses is integrated males.

00:03:28.900 He's got books, online classes, courses, groups, workshops.

00:03:32.480 All of them are designed to help men take a more assertive role in their lives.

00:03:36.560 And today he's here to talk with us about overcoming the nice guy syndrome.

00:03:42.700 Robert, thank you for joining me on the show today.

00:03:44.880 Ryan, it's good to be with you.

00:03:46.200 Thanks for the invitation.

00:03:47.300 You bet.

00:03:47.660 This is a conversation, a long time in the works, although we've just been recently connected.

00:03:52.620 But I know a lot of the guys that listen to this podcast and read the blog are very

00:03:57.020 interested in the work you're doing.

00:03:58.620 I want to set some context for the discussion that we are going to have today about being

00:04:03.660 a quote unquote nice guy.

00:04:05.400 When I use that term and when you use that term, what are you referring to when it comes

00:04:09.780 to being a nice guy?

00:04:11.220 Okay, Ryan, when I use the word nice guy with a capital N and a capital G, I'm referring

00:04:17.360 to a guy who has a belief system, a paradigm, a roadmap that says, I've got to do it right.

00:04:23.320 I've got to make everybody happy.

00:04:25.100 I can't rock the boat.

00:04:26.540 I can't make a mistake.

00:04:28.200 It's a passively pleasing person who doesn't believe that he is just okay, just as he is.

00:04:34.820 So he's either got to become what he expects other people, what he thinks other people want

00:04:39.960 him to be and or hide things that he thinks other people might react negatively to.

00:04:45.340 And I think this falls in line with what you refer to as the nice guy myth, which you alluded

00:04:51.880 to, right, is being good means that I'll be accepted if I understand that correctly.

00:04:56.380 Well, the nice guys, we'll just kind of dive into this.

00:04:59.540 One of the core concepts that I write about around nice guy syndrome is that every nice

00:05:04.780 guy, as I define it, tends to operate by three covert contracts.

00:05:09.820 And these covert contracts all take the form of an if and a then.

00:05:15.160 And so if I do A, then B should always happen.

00:05:20.600 And nice guys have three fundamental covert contracts.

00:05:23.980 The first one, number one, is if I'm a nice guy, everybody will like me and love me.

00:05:30.260 And we can tack on to that. 0.92

00:05:31.900 The people I desire to have sex with will desire to have sex with me. 0.97

00:05:35.320 So if I'm nice, people will like me and love me.

00:05:38.920 The second covert contract of nice guys is if I meet other people's needs without them

00:05:45.760 having to ask, then they will meet my needs without me having to ask.

00:05:51.220 So nice guys tend to be givers.

00:05:52.900 We give a lot.

00:05:53.980 We do a lot.

00:05:55.040 We give surprises.

00:05:56.360 We think if I do these nice things for other people, they'll appreciate me and then they'll

00:06:00.720 give me back what I need.

00:06:02.000 And then the covert contract number three is that if I do everything right, then I should

00:06:09.220 have a smooth, problem-free world.

00:06:12.100 And nice guys think, OK, if I connect all the dots, cross all the T's, dot all the I's,

00:06:17.480 then everything should always work out OK.

00:06:20.460 My boss shouldn't get upset at me.

00:06:22.820 My girlfriend shouldn't dump me. 1.00

00:06:25.360 I shouldn't get sick.

00:06:26.460 My car shouldn't break down.

00:06:27.740 And nice guys really do believe these three core contracts with the world, with the universe,

00:06:34.440 with women, with everybody should work. 0.86

00:06:37.420 But the problem is they're all built on false assumptions.

00:06:41.020 And maybe the biggest, the two biggest problems are often the nice guy doesn't even know what

00:06:47.180 his contracts are, that he's operating out of these covert contracts that are all about

00:06:51.800 giving to get, and nobody else around them knows that the contracts exist, so they don't even know

00:06:57.980 what's expected of them.

00:06:59.860 Right.

00:07:00.120 You know, it's really fascinating.

00:07:01.460 I'm listening to you talk about this and the fact that a quote-unquote nice guy doesn't even

00:07:05.740 know about these things.

00:07:06.700 It's actually, I hear these covert contracts, and I think, isn't this obvious?

00:07:11.820 But apparently it's not.

00:07:13.380 I mean, you've been in this field of work for a long time.

00:07:15.400 How do we get to this stage where we think this way?

00:07:20.860 Because this goes against all that I believe, and maybe I've just developed a certain belief

00:07:26.220 system of my own over time.

00:07:27.460 How do we get to this stage of being a nice guy?

00:07:29.680 We all have internal belief systems, and becoming a nice guy probably starts out the same way

00:07:35.040 that the rest of us all develop our world paradigm.

00:07:38.040 When we are young, we're completely and totally dependent on our caregivers, and none of us

00:07:44.860 are born into perfect families with perfect parents or into a perfect world.

00:07:49.840 You know, maybe there's, I mean, any number of issues that might occur when we're children,

00:07:54.360 and often it's nobody's fault.

00:07:57.020 Maybe you're born and you're sick or needy, or your mother's depressed, or your dad's off

00:08:04.260 working, or dad isn't there, or you have a sick sibling that needs your parents' attention,

00:08:09.460 and you're kind of neglected, or, you know, maybe there's addiction in your family.

00:08:13.260 Who knows?

00:08:14.400 Maybe there's rigid religiosity.

00:08:18.460 Can't even spit the word out.

00:08:20.180 You know, but the thing is, we all are born to imperfect parents, and what happens with all

00:08:27.180 children, all children are by nature narcissistic.

00:08:30.560 They believe they are the center of the world.

00:08:32.680 Now, they don't think this, they're just wired that way, and a lot of this has to do with

00:08:37.440 just human evolution, that human beings have a long maturation process, meaning that as,

00:08:44.340 you know, some species of animals, you know, as soon as the baby pops out, they're on their

00:08:49.640 own.

00:08:50.300 With humans, we need someone to take care of us, for most of us, at least into our teenage

00:08:54.880 years.

00:08:55.480 And because of that, we are very dependent on our caregivers, and the state of our caregivers

00:09:02.980 determines the state of our well-being.

00:09:06.140 So all children, when they have either a negative or painful experience, whether it's an abandonment,

00:09:12.720 whether they're hungry and don't get fed soon enough, or their diaper's dirty and they don't

00:09:16.740 get changed, or, you know, mom's anxious, or dad yells, or, you know, any number of things,

00:09:23.320 children always internalize, I caused that.

00:09:27.000 That's my fault.

00:09:28.420 That's on me.

00:09:29.280 Now, they don't think this, because the human brain doesn't, as probably most of us know,

00:09:33.760 doesn't develop a verbal ability until, you know, two years old or so, and doesn't start

00:09:39.600 differentiating self from others until around two.

00:09:41.980 We tend to call that the terrible twos, which is a terrible name, and maybe we'll talk more

00:09:47.920 about that, because it has to do with our ability to differentiate as a self, and to know

00:09:52.680 what we want, and to go after that in life.

00:09:55.720 But also, the brain, say, in the average male, doesn't finish developing until around age 25.

00:10:02.920 But what is online in our operating system is a very primal part of our brain, centered

00:10:08.820 around the brainstem, called the amygdala.

00:10:10.800 And when things happen to us, the amygdala is the part of our brain wired in for self-preservation.

00:10:18.240 It's the fight, flight, freeze part of ourselves.

00:10:21.880 So that part is completely online when we're born.

00:10:25.120 So it gets activated by anything that feels like it could be a possible threat to us.

00:10:30.680 And depending on our genetic temperament, some of us tend to fight, some of us tend to run,

00:10:36.660 some of us tend to just cower and freeze.

00:10:39.280 Okay, as children, we don't like these negative feelings.

00:10:43.820 So all of us develop at least two types of defense mechanisms.

00:10:48.660 The first one is to try to cope with the negative feelings that we're having.

00:10:52.940 We try to do something to make ourselves feel better.

00:10:55.940 Maybe we cry.

00:10:57.020 Maybe we quit crying. 0.98

00:10:58.380 Maybe we suck our thumb.

00:11:00.100 Maybe, you know, we do various things to try to soothe and comfort ourselves. 0.95

00:11:04.280 The second thing that we try to do is we try to come up with a strategy.

00:11:08.820 Now, remember, most of this is before we can even have an analytical brain.

00:11:12.120 We just have an emotional brain.

00:11:14.660 Right.

00:11:14.840 And we just want to eliminate that negative emotion and encourage the positive emotions.

00:11:18.660 And we want to prevent those negative things from happening in the future.

00:11:23.500 So everybody develops this two-sided roadmap of life.

00:11:28.760 We do X to try to feel better when we feel bad, and we do Y to try to prevent the things

00:11:36.200 from happening in the future that made us feel bad now.

00:11:39.160 And as I said, we develop this roadmap, this strategy, these defense mechanisms, before

00:11:47.240 our analytical brain even comes online.

00:11:49.540 So what happens, these responses are very much wired into that emotional part of our

00:11:55.660 brain, that primitive part.

00:11:57.020 And then as the rest of our reasoning brain, our prefrontal cortex, comes online and continues

00:12:02.880 to develop into our early 20s, that primitive part of our brain is wired into, is hardwired

00:12:09.340 into the prefrontal cortex.

00:12:11.100 So it tends to influence all of our decision-making as children, teenagers, and adults.

00:12:16.920 So we often don't know why we reacted to this when our boss had that look on his face, or

00:12:22.720 why a certain type of woman turns us on, or why if we get rejected, we're devastated for

00:12:29.760 so we don't know why, but it's deeply wired into our emotions.

00:12:34.360 And then we kind of keep falling back to do those things that we learn to try to prevent

00:12:39.240 the pain or soothe the pain when it's there, and try to prevent it from happening in the

00:12:43.200 future.

00:12:44.420 One pattern for doing that is to be a nice guy.

00:12:47.920 That is, to try to never do anything that might upset your parents, to be needless and

00:12:52.880 wantless, so you don't get negative responses to your needs.

00:12:56.680 It's trying never to rock the boat, trying to always perform well so that you'll get

00:13:01.620 approval.

00:13:02.600 I mean, any number of manifestations of that pattern.

00:13:06.160 And if you grew up in a family and had more than one sibling, or more than just you, you

00:13:11.520 probably saw various patterns in your siblings of how they coped, and some might have been

00:13:16.000 similar to yours, and some might have been very different from yours.

00:13:19.240 You might have, if you were kind of the complacent, go-along-to-get-along child, you might have had a brother 1.00

00:13:24.880 or sister that was the rebellious, raising hell, you know, fuck you, I'll do what I 1.00

00:13:29.400 want, you can't control me. 1.00

00:13:30.740 It sounds like you know my family dynamic growing up.

00:13:34.920 I've seen a lot of similar dynamics.

00:13:36.780 I'm sure you have.

00:13:38.080 So how does a man go about recognizing this in himself?

00:13:42.620 Because you talk about paradigms, and I think sometimes we subscribe to these paradigms or

00:13:47.600 use them as coping or survival mechanisms like you talk about, and it would be very difficult

00:13:52.940 for us to recognize that we can actually change the way we think and therefore behave.

00:13:57.720 You know, most of us are not really good at looking inward at ourselves.

00:14:02.020 I mean, whether we call this self-evaluation, consciousness, you know, present moment awareness,

00:14:07.160 most of us are not real good at it.

00:14:09.540 We're kind of on the inside being driven by impulses and thought processes that we don't

00:14:15.480 evaluate.

00:14:16.100 We just assume every thought and impulse and reaction we have is appropriate, and everybody

00:14:22.960 would respond this way because we're feeling it.

00:14:26.480 Right.

00:14:26.580 And so for most of us, it isn't until we get really stuck or something just comes unraveled

00:14:34.300 on us or what we're doing isn't working and we've just been trying to do more of the same

00:14:39.580 of it to get it to work, it usually takes some kind of just severe stuckness or crisis

00:14:45.940 or something breaks, and then maybe we go looking for some answers.

00:14:51.140 Without maybe even knowing it, we go looking for some awareness to help us understand what's

00:14:56.040 happening, or we go looking for more tools to put in our toolbox to help us handle.

00:15:01.220 And what I found with most of the men who find me, they tend to find me at maybe about

00:15:08.000 one of three different junctures in life.

00:15:11.180 One, and this is often true with the younger men, is when they're really frustrated with

00:15:15.820 dating, when they just can't seem to get women's attention or they're just too shy or anxious

00:15:21.460 around women and, you know, never get out of their comfort zone or, you know, what women, 0.98

00:15:26.540 you know, maybe they do interact with, they end up in the friend zone.

00:15:29.180 And so for some guys, it really is, they just don't know how to find a mate.

00:15:33.800 They don't know how to find love and get laid. 1.00

00:15:35.920 So they go looking for answers.

00:15:37.560 And that's where some men find me.

00:15:39.580 Other men find me when their relationships just are not working very well.

00:15:44.640 And that's really when I started discovering my own nice guy patterns is when I just kept

00:15:49.100 trying harder and harder and harder to please the woman I was with.

00:15:52.380 And she just seemed to be unhappy.

00:15:54.820 I couldn't do enough.

00:15:55.760 I couldn't do it right.

00:15:56.720 I couldn't predict her moods and emotions.

00:15:59.360 It was never good enough.

00:16:01.100 She never wanted to have sex, even though she'd been highly sexual before we got married. 0.98

00:16:06.280 After we got married, it was like, you know, we'd go months without it.

00:16:10.000 And she'd be hostile towards me if I wanted it.

00:16:12.960 And I'm just thinking, you know, what's wrong with this picture?

00:16:15.680 Right.

00:16:16.020 Just as an aside, it was when I started working on those issues of when I started going to

00:16:21.600 therapy, mainly to figure out why me being a nice guy didn't make my wife treat me better.

00:16:26.360 And I started getting some insight into my paradigm.

00:16:30.360 I'm by training a marriage and family therapist.

00:16:32.580 So in my practice, I started noticing a lot of men coming in with their wives or girlfriends

00:16:37.520 saying the exact same things I was saying.

00:16:39.660 I'm a nice guy. 1.00

00:16:40.920 I'm I'm I'm so much better than the jerk she used to be with. 0.99

00:16:44.000 You know, I treat her well. 0.99

00:16:45.140 I raise her kids.

00:16:46.540 You know, I don't cheat on her. 0.60

00:16:48.340 You know, I you know, I'm good to her.

00:16:50.500 But it's never enough.

00:16:51.800 She's never happy.

00:16:52.700 She's always depressed.

00:16:53.760 She's always angry. 0.78

00:16:54.780 You know, she never wants to have sex. 1.00

00:16:56.480 I'm like, man, I can finish these guys sentences for them.

00:16:59.280 And that's when I started realizing I wasn't alone.

00:17:02.760 Maybe we can talk more about that a little bit if you want of how how that led to me writing

00:17:06.520 the book.

00:17:07.200 But then the third time, third kind of point in life for a lot of men seem to come to me

00:17:12.160 is often at the end of a long term relationship.

00:17:15.300 Maybe they're in their 40s or 50s, been married 20 something years.

00:17:19.720 Maybe their kids are about grown or grown.

00:17:22.640 And and finally, they or their wife, you know, just, you know, pull the string on and get divorced.

00:17:29.240 And here they are.

00:17:30.140 You know, they've been married for years.

00:17:31.980 They don't know what went wrong.

00:17:33.840 They don't know how to go out and start over and start relationships.

00:17:37.780 They know they could, you know, they know there's so much more open to them.

00:17:41.740 So a lot of guys kind of when they were like a divorce or an end of a relationship and kind

00:17:46.800 of midlife stage, a lot of men find me at that time as well.

00:17:51.000 Yeah.

00:17:51.420 I mean, this makes sense because I know for me, you said we a couple of times, as in

00:17:56.420 you are maybe a recovering nice guy, which you've alluded to.

00:17:59.420 And I can definitely fall into that camp as well.

00:18:02.320 I've talked with a lot of the guys that listen to this podcast about my separation with my

00:18:07.940 wife, which was roughly nine years ago.

00:18:10.320 And it was and you can attest to this and because of the work that you're doing, it was

00:18:14.260 literally the darkest time in my life.

00:18:16.900 But I needed that to realize that I had placed so much emphasis on everybody but myself.

00:18:22.920 And what was really fascinating to me is when I went to work on myself and quote unquote

00:18:27.960 became maybe a little bit selfish, it was very fascinating to see how my wife responded 1.00

00:18:33.620 to that.

00:18:35.060 I'd like to get your take on this idea of being selfish because I assume a nice guy doesn't

00:18:40.880 want to be selfish and he wants to be pleasing and serving to other people.

00:18:45.200 But I think there's a healthy balance.

00:18:47.200 Yeah.

00:18:47.280 If you want to manipulate a nice guy to get him to do what you want, call him selfish because,

00:18:53.340 you know, oh, no, no, I'm not selfish.

00:18:55.260 Remember those covert contracts?

00:18:56.760 I do this.

00:18:57.440 I do this.

00:18:58.100 I do this.

00:18:59.120 You know, I'm not selfish.

00:19:00.120 And we don't want to perceive of ourselves or be seen by others in a negative way.

00:19:05.580 And in our culture, the word selfish pretty much only gets used when people want to manipulate

00:19:10.860 somebody else to do what they want.

00:19:12.520 And I talk in the book that I tell guys, hey, I, when I look up the word selfish in

00:19:18.600 the dictionary, I want to see your picture. 0.99

00:19:20.820 Now, what I'm talking about, and I'm not talking about, you know, the asshole that only 1.00

00:19:25.920 cares about himself and doesn't give a fuck about anybody else. 1.00

00:19:29.200 I'm talking about a mature, individuated adult who has a healthy self-interest in 0.97

00:19:35.960 themselves.

00:19:36.440 And they've surrounded themselves, I call them cooperative reciprocal systems.

00:19:41.800 We've surrounded ourselves with other people, with professionals, with organizations in which

00:19:47.820 everybody involved gets something of value out of it.

00:19:51.660 With our friends, there's a give and take.

00:19:54.100 We enjoy being with them.

00:19:55.260 They enjoy being with us.

00:19:56.960 A love relationship where we're both getting something out of it of value or we wouldn't be

00:20:01.440 there.

00:20:02.220 You and I have a reciprocal relationship right now.

00:20:04.920 You're getting something out of it.

00:20:06.800 I'm getting something out of it.

00:20:08.300 Your listeners will get something out of it.

00:20:10.420 Maybe my book sales will get something out of it.

00:20:13.080 It's a reciprocal relationship.

00:20:15.140 And we have these with our doctors, our accountants, our attorneys, our trainer at the gym.

00:20:21.800 As long as everybody's getting something of value and it's very overt, that works well.

00:20:27.180 That's being selfish.

00:20:28.420 That's having a healthy self-interest.

00:20:30.140 And the funny thing is, contrary to the nice guy paradigm, see, nice guys seem to be pretty

00:20:36.400 empty because we're walking around with this covert contract waiting for somebody else to

00:20:40.240 fill us up.

00:20:41.160 We're emptying the bucket out for everybody else, but we're not putting anything back in.

00:20:45.880 And maybe we haven't surrounded ourselves with other people to help put something back

00:20:50.280 in the bucket.

00:20:51.280 And here's a little secret.

00:20:53.120 Nice guys are terrible receivers.

00:20:55.260 We are not very good at letting people give to us or do things for us.

00:20:59.800 We feel guilty.

00:21:01.060 We feel indebted.

00:21:02.120 We feel like people are going to think we're bad.

00:21:04.940 I mean, all kinds of negative stuff comes up for nice guys when it comes to receiving.

00:21:09.700 But here's the paradox.

00:21:11.820 If you are, I call it creating your great cake of a life.

00:21:15.240 If you're out there doing good things for yourself, connecting with men, pursuing your

00:21:19.820 passions, getting to the gym on a regular basis, you have some kind of self-awareness, self-improvement,

00:21:26.440 spiritual practice in your life, you're giving your gift to the world, you're going to be

00:21:31.240 a really attractive man.

00:21:34.120 And that has nothing to do with your physical features, even though it does affect your physical

00:21:38.460 features and how your face looks, how you stand, how you walk, how you carry yourself.

00:21:43.980 Well, people will find that really attractive without them even knowing you or knowing why

00:21:49.420 they're attracted to you.

00:21:50.760 Yeah.

00:21:51.300 One of the things, if I can real quick is, I think this is a common thread within the

00:21:56.120 book, is this idea, because you go through a couple of case studies, quite a few actually,

00:22:01.780 and it seems like the underlying thread is that the women in these types of relationships 0.56

00:22:06.060 with nice guys feel overwhelmed.

00:22:08.740 They feel swamped, because it's not like this man wants necessarily to be in this relationship.

00:22:15.200 It's like he needs to be, and therefore this woman, in this case, seems like she's now the 0.99

00:22:20.920 caretaker of this child, I guess is how I would say it.

00:22:25.380 Yeah.

00:22:25.660 You've hit the nail on the head.

00:22:27.120 And of course, every nice guy is different.

00:22:29.200 Every relationship dynamic is different.

00:22:31.220 But one of the analogies I use, people that are closer to my age will remember this.

00:22:36.640 I don't remember what year it was, but I remember when Ross Perot was running for president.

00:22:41.860 And he kept referring, and he had this kind of characteristic thing.

00:22:45.400 He said, you hear that big, loud sucking sound?

00:22:48.540 He said, that's the federal government sucking money out of your pocket.

00:22:53.020 And I use that analogy for nice guys when they approach relationship.

00:22:58.040 It's this big sucking sound, because they're so empty inside.

00:23:01.800 It creates this vacuum, and like you said, we need to create this codependent relationship

00:23:07.460 with another, so that as we take care of them, we'll be taken care of.

00:23:12.600 And I'm a straight guy, and most of the men I've worked with in counseling are straight,

00:23:17.000 but I've worked with a number of gay guys as well.

00:23:19.360 So I'll usually refer to the male-female interaction.

00:23:22.660 But it's the same.

00:23:23.860 If we're approaching somebody from this place of emptiness, oftentimes the other person can

00:23:30.760 feel that.

00:23:31.660 They don't know what it is they feel.

00:23:33.880 And I know a lot of times women especially can be really perceptive to that, those negative

00:23:38.820 feelings that comes from that big old sucking sound of the emptiness of the man.

00:23:43.900 And what happens for a lot of nice guys is we develop this internal belief system.

00:23:48.860 Oh, women just aren't attracted to me. 1.00

00:23:51.760 And we think it's something physical about us, or we're boring, or we're losers, and 0.96

00:23:55.820 they can see it.

00:23:56.940 But one of the core things is we're just not bringing anything to the table.

00:24:01.020 We're just bringing that big empty sucking sound that most women or most people of the 1.00

00:24:06.740 opposite sex, whether we're straight or gay or whoever we're approaching, it'll feel

00:24:11.060 negative to them.

00:24:11.880 And even if they think we're a nice person, they'll want to push that away. 0.98

00:24:15.320 And then we think, oh, see, everybody can see what a loser I am.

00:24:19.500 I don't know what your experience was with your ex-wife, but I found that a lot of guys

00:24:23.400 after they split and start taking care of themselves, maybe go to a men's group, they

00:24:28.720 start getting to the gym, they start rediscovering the passions they'd given up to be in the relationship

00:24:33.600 and maybe start spending more time with men, maybe take a little road trip or two.

00:24:38.640 And then all of a sudden, they start looking like this really attractive guy to the ex.

00:24:43.300 And especially if you tell her no a time or two, then you look even more attractive to

00:24:48.660 them.

00:24:49.320 And then we're going, what's going on here?

00:24:51.800 Why didn't she have this interest in me back when I wanted to be with her?

00:24:55.780 Well, I can tell you, fortunately, my wife and I salvaged our marriage and we have been

00:24:59.840 married.

00:25:00.220 This year will be 13 years.

00:25:02.040 And in large part, thank you.

00:25:03.620 Yeah.

00:25:03.780 In large part to me not needing her and her not needing me and us being able to stand on

00:25:09.460 our own two feet without each other.

00:25:10.800 Yeah, that's healthy interdependency.

00:25:13.680 That's way different than codependency or another term for it is borrowed functioning.

00:25:19.480 You know, we just kind of lean on each other so much because we can't stand on our own and

00:25:24.780 we just wear each other out and we don't bring anything to the party.

00:25:29.140 And so the other person gets bored with us and we all get resentful with each other because

00:25:34.340 we think the other person isn't doing what they're supposed to do to make us happy.

00:25:38.280 And then we just pick at each other.

00:25:40.520 So yeah, I've been there.

00:25:41.640 I've done that.

00:25:42.500 Yeah.

00:25:42.720 So I was going to ask you the question of how do you begin to bring something to the

00:25:46.840 table?

00:25:47.140 But after hearing you reframe this a little bit, I don't think it's about bringing

00:25:50.840 something to the table.

00:25:51.860 I think it's just about being yourself and filling your own cup.

00:25:55.320 Am I understanding this correctly?

00:25:56.880 Yeah.

00:25:57.180 And as you do that, you've got something to offer other people and not just intimate

00:26:02.980 relationship, but to your friends and to the world as well.

00:26:06.120 When you're filling your cup up and kind of living in your authentic self and doing what

00:26:12.720 feels right to you, giving your gift to the world, leaning into challenges, it's going

00:26:19.260 to make you an attractive person.

00:26:20.820 And now I'm 61 years old as we talk.

00:26:25.220 I try to take care of myself.

00:26:27.020 I exercise.

00:26:28.200 I'm good to myself.

00:26:30.120 And I just got married in November.

00:26:32.680 Congratulations.

00:26:33.360 And it's my third try at it.

00:26:35.400 I'm thinking I stumbled in finally to what I was trying to stumble into other times before.

00:26:41.480 But for example, my wife is 22 years younger than me.

00:26:44.620 And I didn't go looking for a younger woman.

00:26:46.520 In fact, I wasn't even looking for her.

00:26:47.840 She told me the first time she saw me, she saw me walking up the street and she said

00:26:52.600 she felt immediately attracted to me.

00:26:56.200 Just how I was walking up the street towards where she was standing.

00:27:00.480 And she felt an immediate attraction.

00:27:03.560 My experience has been as I dated on and off over say about the last, I got divorced from

00:27:10.620 my second ex-wife in 03. 1.00

00:27:13.080 So over the last 14 years or so, I've consistently heard women tell me, and by the way, most of

00:27:19.220 the women attracted to me seem to be significantly younger than me. 1.00

00:27:22.660 I don't go looking for them.

00:27:23.980 I don't have an ego thing around that.

00:27:26.180 Women my own age don't seem to see me, I guess.

00:27:29.540 But, and these women always tell me they were attracted to just something. 1.00

00:27:33.840 They just felt something.

00:27:35.040 The way I walked, you know, they'll say, well, like, you know, your shaved head or your

00:27:39.440 hands.

00:27:40.040 And I'm thinking, wait a minute, you didn't just like, you know, decided you wanted to

00:27:44.480 be with me because you like my hands and my head.

00:27:46.820 And there's plenty of guys that have good hands and a shaved head, right?

00:27:51.100 Yeah.

00:27:51.420 Or, or walk the way I walk.

00:27:53.240 And so it's not really those things I really think is more energetic than that.

00:27:59.220 That when you're comfortable in your own skin and you're walking the planet at peace

00:28:04.400 with yourself and you're bringing a gift to the world around you and you've got an

00:28:09.600 energy about you, people will be attracted to that.

00:28:13.680 And they may not even know why.

00:28:15.220 They'll put a name on it, but who knows?

00:28:18.040 It's energetic.

00:28:20.760 Gentlemen, let me take a quick pause to tell you briefly about our exclusive mastermind,

00:28:25.160 The Iron Council.

00:28:25.940 If you are not familiar with it yet, I do invite you to see what we're all about.

00:28:29.060 And find out exactly, exactly what's included in your membership at orderofman.com slash

00:28:34.620 Iron Council.

00:28:35.760 In the meantime, I want you to know that if you're seriously committed to being a better

00:28:40.980 father, a better husband, businessman, community leader, just a better man overall, sometimes

00:28:45.780 all that you might be lacking is the right set of tools and the right information.

00:28:50.780 We've got exactly what you need, including weekly challenges that are designed to push

00:28:55.640 you outside of your comfort zone.

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00:29:07.060 next level in an area that you have identified, that you've personally identified as being

00:29:11.140 important to you.

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00:29:16.420 orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:29:18.900 Again, that's orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:29:21.200 Now let's get back to the conversation with Dr. Glover.

00:29:26.540 I want to jump back to the win-win conversation we were having a couple of minutes ago.

00:29:31.460 And one of the things that you had said inside of these, I think I'm saying the term correctly,

00:29:36.020 the cooperative reciprocal systems.

00:29:37.860 Did I say that right?

00:29:38.940 Yeah.

00:29:39.080 You know, I turn it around every which way as well.

00:29:41.260 I can never remember, you know, when I've written it, how did I write it?

00:29:45.360 So yeah.

00:29:45.860 So whether it's cooperative reciprocal systems or reciprocal cooperative systems or systems

00:29:50.620 of cooperative reciprocal, it doesn't matter.

00:29:53.020 We all get it, right?

00:29:54.800 You got the words right.

00:29:55.840 So I want to talk about creating win-wins.

00:29:58.640 And one of the things, the terms that you used was over, just making sure that everybody

00:30:02.840 understands and is on the same page.

00:30:05.580 This is obviously a communication conversation we're having now.

00:30:08.880 How does somebody who may be passive or even passive aggressive, which I assume nice guys

00:30:13.700 are, both of those, become more assertive in what he might need in a relationship, whether

00:30:19.860 that's with a boss or a coworker or an intimate relationship?

00:30:24.100 Well, I will say how it began for me.

00:30:26.120 And it began for me in therapy.

00:30:28.440 Really what therapy is, it's an act of going to another person and saying, I need something

00:30:33.640 and I'm going to pay you to help me get that.

00:30:36.120 And we may not even know what it is.

00:30:37.820 Maybe we need understanding or insight or new skill sets or acceptance or the feeling

00:30:45.580 of being loved and valued, you know, and maybe all of those things.

00:30:49.820 And for me, it was actually a fairly slow process of basically beginning to show up and, okay,

00:30:56.800 I'm paying good money for this hour or I'm paying good money for these two hours of a group

00:31:01.560 that I'm in and starting to take up some space and make my needs known and accept what other

00:31:09.260 people gave me, even though I was paying for it.

00:31:12.200 As I said, nice guys are really bad receivers and I'm speaking from personal experience.

00:31:17.480 So for me, it began in therapy and it began with me saying, I'm going to go pay somebody

00:31:23.140 and spend time taking good care of me.

00:31:26.300 And since then, like I've hired personal trainers or, you know, the past personal golf coach,

00:31:32.760 you know, golf swing coaches or, you know, personal, I've hired accountants.

00:31:37.860 And so basically, it really begins with you making your own needs a priority and starting

00:31:44.560 to do good things for you and then consciously starting to surround yourself with people who

00:31:50.160 are available to give to you.

00:31:51.900 Whether you're paying them or you just notice whenever you're with them, you and them seem

00:31:57.880 to have a good time and enjoy it.

00:32:00.180 For me, it began with just making the decision, I'm going to go pay somebody to give to me.

00:32:05.020 And then I just started doing that more and more.

00:32:08.160 And for example, in some of my online classes that I teach, one of the most common assignments

00:32:14.300 that I will give people is to ask three people a day to do something for you that you can

00:32:21.560 do yourself.

00:32:22.620 Interesting.

00:32:23.660 That's one of those breaking through type assignments you talk about in the book, I

00:32:26.460 believe.

00:32:27.260 Yeah.

00:32:27.700 And it involves you doing something out of your comfort zone and then listening to those

00:32:32.480 voices that scream at you and then pay attention.

00:32:35.100 What are those voices saying actually?

00:32:37.120 Oh, you can't do that or you can do it yourself or people think you're lazy or people think you're

00:32:41.940 selfish or people are too busy, they don't have time.

00:32:44.980 So then all of a sudden, those deep emotional memories that got stored up when we were young

00:32:49.260 will start screaming at us when we make a conscious decision to step out of the paradigm, to do a

00:32:55.280 very conscious act that goes 180 degrees opposite of our paradigm.

00:33:00.880 So this is going to the notion of facing your fears, right?

00:33:05.460 Doing things that are uncomfortable, doing things that are outside of your comfort zone, which

00:33:09.120 you talk about as being a huge step towards becoming, or I should say becoming more assertive

00:33:15.940 or less of that nice guy, right?

00:33:18.360 It's essential.

00:33:19.440 One of the most life-changing books I've ever read, I read it when I was going through my

00:33:24.880 first divorce and I say it saved my life, is a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway

00:33:29.720 by Susan Jeffers.

00:33:31.760 I mean, I have such fond affection for this woman.

00:33:33.860 She passed away of cancer just a few years ago and I never met her, never talked to her,

00:33:37.540 tried to find her address to send her an email, never could.

00:33:41.520 But man, I give this woman credit for just shifting my life because she basically says 0.99

00:33:46.160 in this book, she talks about three levels of fear and whether it's a fear of I'll be

00:33:50.920 embarrassed or a fear I'm going to get sick or a fear that I'm going to lose something

00:33:54.660 important to me or a fear I'm going to die.

00:33:56.900 She says at the core of all fears is a core belief that I can't handle it.

00:34:02.840 I can't handle being embarrassed.

00:34:04.100 I can't handle getting rejected.

00:34:05.720 I can't handle somebody being mad at me.

00:34:07.340 I can't handle getting sick or I can't handle the idea of dying.

00:34:12.160 And there's enough in the book that she talks about how to work with that.

00:34:15.400 But a takeaway for me was just an internal mantra that no matter what happens, I'll handle

00:34:21.100 it.

00:34:21.680 And I've been repeating that for 30 years.

00:34:23.920 And a core thing that she talks about, as long as you're alive and challenging yourself,

00:34:29.680 i.e. growing as a human being, you're going to have fear.

00:34:33.660 It's never going to go away.

00:34:35.260 And one thing with nice guys, we don't like to feel afraid.

00:34:38.480 We have a fairly low tolerance for frustration and anxiety.

00:34:42.200 So we tend to play it safe and do what worked last time.

00:34:45.540 But nothing ever changes in our life.

00:34:47.960 And the most significant changes come when we just start doing the little things that

00:34:53.160 scare us.

00:34:53.740 And I've made that my personal roadmap since I turned 40.

00:34:59.660 So for 21 years now, if it scares me, I think, OK, what do I need to do to lean into this

00:35:05.600 thing?

00:35:05.840 I don't want this thing controlling me.

00:35:07.880 It sounds like what I'm hearing you say when you talk about this is that nice guys probably

00:35:13.460 tend to be very controlling and even attempt to control things outside of their control,

00:35:19.080 which I'm sure causes a lot of frustration.

00:35:21.200 You're talking about being more spontaneous and just letting things go in a way, it sounds

00:35:24.660 like.

00:35:25.500 Yeah.

00:35:25.680 I guess, you know, me, that's my like I said, I'm on my third marriage, my third family.

00:35:33.320 And for some reason, everybody that knows me, including my mother and my granddaughter,

00:35:38.340 who's 10, tend to refer to me as being controlling.

00:35:41.600 And I always say, no, I'm not controlling.

00:35:44.040 I just like things the way I like them.

00:35:46.180 But the big difference is I don't try to control anybody else.

00:35:49.520 I used to.

00:35:50.160 I used to with my covert contracts, that subtle manipulation or not so subtle, as you

00:35:56.000 mentioned, leads to a lot of passive aggressiveness.

00:35:58.600 It can lead to something that my ex-wife used to refer to as victim pukes, where you think,

00:36:04.560 hey, I've done my share of the contract.

00:36:06.460 You haven't been doing yours.

00:36:07.640 I've been resentful about this for months now.

00:36:09.860 I'm going to puke out every resentment I have, you know, and you're not going to even

00:36:13.880 know where it's all coming from or why.

00:36:15.840 So, yes, nice guys do tend to be controlling, even though that's kind of like the

00:36:20.140 word selfish.

00:36:20.940 We think, oh, don't say I'm controlling.

00:36:22.420 That makes me a bad person.

00:36:23.960 Probably we're all controlling in some form or another.

00:36:28.300 And, yeah, I think that some of the important lessons in life are learning to let go of control

00:36:33.060 of what we don't have control over and take charge of what we do have some control over.

00:36:38.200 For me, that might mean, well, facing some fears.

00:36:41.100 I can't control the outcome, but I can control my choice and how I deal with it.

00:36:45.820 And even though some people may say you're controlling to try to manage you and get you

00:36:51.240 to do what they want, the truth is when you live life on your terms and say, okay, I'm

00:36:56.860 doing it my way and it'll either work or it won't work.

00:36:59.820 In my experience, it just goes a hell of a lot better than trying to, you know, lick your

00:37:04.280 finger and hold it up and see which way the wind's blowing and try to do it everybody else's

00:37:07.940 way.

00:37:08.200 That never works.

00:37:10.020 So even if that comes across as looking like, well, you're a little bit controlling or, you

00:37:15.460 know, you always got to have it your way.

00:37:17.100 I'm actually a very generous, flexible person.

00:37:20.260 But it begins by asking myself, what do I want?

00:37:24.380 What's important to me?

00:37:25.760 What feels right to me?

00:37:27.840 And then doing it.

00:37:29.260 And that's actually my definition of maturity or integrity or differentiation.

00:37:35.020 I use the same definition for all those three terms is asking yourself, what do I want?

00:37:40.440 What's important to me?

00:37:41.560 What feels right to me?

00:37:43.420 And then doing it, even when you get resistance from the outside, i.e. people telling you you're

00:37:49.060 controlling or selfish or resistance from the inside between your own ears of saying, oh,

00:37:55.200 you know, you're being selfish or you're going to piss some people off or somebody's

00:37:59.300 going to be disappointed with you.

00:38:00.760 You got to do it on your terms.

00:38:02.320 There's no other way to do it.

00:38:03.440 And I think one of the things that I really liked about the book you talked about towards

00:38:07.940 the end, and I think this ties into what we're talking about here is the healthy male

00:38:12.040 rule, which is a very simple question, essentially, that I think will help you move forward with

00:38:19.380 a maybe more of a clear path when you do come up against some of this resistance.

00:38:23.300 Do you mind going through that?

00:38:24.920 Actually, I haven't read my book in 15 years.

00:38:27.940 I'll tell you what it says.

00:38:29.020 This almost never happens.

00:38:30.920 Okay.

00:38:31.260 Well, what is the healthy male rule? 0.97

00:38:32.820 What did I say?

00:38:33.520 Essentially, the question is, what would a healthy male do?

00:38:38.260 That's the question.

00:38:40.080 That's a great question to ask.

00:38:42.220 What would a healthy male do? 0.85

00:38:44.460 And I do ask myself that.

00:38:46.300 And I usually ask myself one of two questions when I feel stuck or afraid is I'll ask, what

00:38:51.940 would a healthy male do?

00:38:53.660 And I will ask myself, if I had no fear in this situation, what would I do?

00:38:58.800 And it's amazing how simple and quickly the answers often come when you just ask, if I

00:39:04.740 had no fear, well, what would a healthy male do in this situation?

00:39:08.060 The answer is usually right there.

00:39:10.580 It's just our anxiety, our fear, our shame is blocking us from just accessing it as easily

00:39:18.220 as it is.

00:39:19.580 Right, right.

00:39:20.540 Well, Robert, this is a fascinating discussion.

00:39:22.960 We aren't even, we've talked about a lot.

00:39:25.240 We've gone a lot of different places, but I know there's so much more to this and I've

00:39:28.480 applied a lot of it in my life and still have a lot to go.

00:39:31.520 As we wind down on time, I want to ask you a couple of additional questions.

00:39:34.540 The first one being, what does it mean to be a man?

00:39:38.380 You know, you told me ahead of time you were going to ask me that question and I haven't

00:39:42.080 even thought about it until you asked about the healthy male rule.

00:39:45.860 I want to tell a story, if I can, to answer it.

00:39:49.060 And it's not even, well, it is a story about me peripherally, but here's the story.

00:39:55.120 I'm going to guess 10 or so years ago, maybe a little longer ago than that, I was with a

00:40:00.180 buddy and we were at a 4th of July celebration in Tacoma, Washington.

00:40:06.400 I lived in that area at the time and they closed off the main street along the waterfront.

00:40:11.360 They had air shows, they had booths with food, fireworks at night.

00:40:15.500 So about 200,000 people during the day and night show up for this Freedom Fest in Tacoma.

00:40:22.760 And I was walking with my buddy, it was actually a warm, sunny day in July, which is actually

00:40:27.060 kind of unusual in Seattle, believe it or not.

00:40:29.740 And we're walking along, just talking, and it's just, it's crowded.

00:40:34.000 A lot of people in the street that were as closed off.

00:40:36.920 And we came up on a group of teenage boys.

00:40:39.660 I don't know how old they were, 15, 16, not real old.

00:40:43.180 And there was two boys kind of with their fists up, kind of circling each other, kind

00:40:49.240 of, you know, squaring off with each other.

00:40:51.240 And my friend and I walked up on that and there were several, I mean, it was quite a fairly

00:40:56.180 large group of people standing around kind of watching this thing and nothing was really

00:41:00.560 happening.

00:41:01.400 And kind of from my own internal point of view, I watched and one of the boys looked a little

00:41:06.580 bit tougher and more aggressive.

00:41:07.960 And it looked like he had several buddies with him.

00:41:10.620 The other guy looked somewhat more scared and anxious, but maybe it was a situation he

00:41:17.380 just figured, okay, I'm taking enough.

00:41:19.240 I can't back down.

00:41:20.620 But like I said, they hadn't really come to blows, but they were circling each other with

00:41:24.620 their fist up and I'm with my buddy and I didn't even know what to do.

00:41:28.960 You know, there's a lot of gangs in the area.

00:41:31.620 You don't know what you're going to walk in the middle of.

00:41:34.440 And so I was just standing there and I could tell they really didn't want to fight.

00:41:38.640 Otherwise, they probably would have already been fighting.

00:41:41.160 And they're both posturing.

00:41:43.000 And about that time, an African-American man, about my height, about six foot tall, with

00:41:49.100 his like two-year-old daughter up on his shoulders, you know, straddling his shoulders.

00:41:53.440 He's holding her hands and she's sitting on his shoulders.

00:41:56.480 He just comes walking up as calm as he could be, walks right between the two boys and said,

00:42:02.680 you guys break this up and get out of here.

00:42:04.980 And just keeps on walking. 0.99

00:42:07.660 And both boys had a look of relief on their face like, oh, fuck, we don't have to fight. 0.99

00:42:13.180 We have an out now. 0.98

00:42:14.640 And the guy just kept walking and the boys, you know, took off different directions.

00:42:19.140 And I looked at my buddy and I said, I want to be like that guy.

00:42:23.460 He just defined for me what I want to be like, what that healthy male looks like that.

00:42:28.500 I mean, he didn't get aggressive.

00:42:30.160 He had his little daughter on his shoulders, but he was clear.

00:42:33.900 He was direct.

00:42:35.100 He did exactly what needed to be done in that situation.

00:42:38.720 And believe it or not, I still get tears in my eyes when when I relive that, you know,

00:42:43.360 talk about it, because to me, it's like, I don't know where he came from or where he went.

00:42:48.340 Maybe he didn't even exist.

00:42:50.100 I don't know.

00:42:51.480 But he changed my life.

00:42:53.420 And for me, to be a man is a person who in every situation is conscious, is present,

00:43:01.940 takes action, and in some way makes the world a better place for him having been there.

00:43:08.160 Such a powerful story.

00:43:09.340 Such a powerful explanation.

00:43:10.760 I love it.

00:43:11.360 I love it.

00:43:11.860 Great.

00:43:12.620 Well, Robert, how do we connect with you?

00:43:14.060 If we want to learn more about the book, if we want to learn about your work, if we want

00:43:17.460 to connect with you, how do we do that?

00:43:19.480 Okay.

00:43:19.820 As simple as getting on the internet and going to drglover.com.

00:43:24.780 That's D-R-G-L-O-V-E-R.com. 1.00

00:43:28.680 I've got an online university with self-help courses that I offer year-round.

00:43:33.620 People can check those out.

00:43:34.820 I've got over 200 podcasts available on pretty much every subject, especially around dating,

00:43:40.420 but around love and life and relationship and work and career.

00:43:44.760 You can access my book there as well.

00:43:47.880 I've got a blog.

00:43:49.820 So, yeah, just go to drglover.com and poke around and see if anything looks helpful to you.

00:43:56.300 Good.

00:43:56.520 We'll make sure we link that up.

00:43:57.700 I do have to let you know that I appreciate you.

00:43:59.600 I do appreciate your work.

00:44:01.040 As I was reading your book, in a way, you were writing my past existence and the book

00:44:06.860 really resonated with me.

00:44:07.980 And certainly, some of the concepts that you shared have definitely helped me in not only

00:44:12.640 my relationship, but growing this business.

00:44:14.460 So, I do have to tell you, I appreciate you and definitely I'm appreciative of your time

00:44:19.380 and you coming and imparting some of your wisdom today.

00:44:21.320 Thanks for coming on the show.

00:44:22.880 Well, you're welcome.

00:44:23.660 And, of course, I always do like hearing that, that how I've walked the planet has made a

00:44:28.280 difference.

00:44:28.680 So, thank you for sharing that.

00:44:31.440 Man, I hope you enjoyed that episode.

00:44:33.520 I know that I did.

00:44:34.480 In fact, this may have been one of my favorite podcasts to date.

00:44:38.940 Make sure, if you have not already done this, to go check out Dr. Glover's work.

00:44:43.080 Buy his book.

00:44:43.980 It's a quick read.

00:44:44.880 You will not be disappointed.

00:44:46.060 I promise you that.

00:44:47.080 If you're interested in that book or any of the links that we talked about today, head to

00:44:50.420 orderaman.com slash 109.

00:44:53.520 And in the meantime, and again, if you're ready for that next step, if you're ready to

00:44:57.460 take your life to the next level, make sure you join us inside of our mastermind.

00:45:00.980 Again, this is called The Iron Council.

00:45:02.860 And this month, we're talking about the concept of stoicism.

00:45:06.360 And specifically this week, we're talking about what it means to take action with regards

00:45:11.220 to stoicism and, of course, how we can use that action to enhance our lives.

00:45:15.760 If you're interested in learning more about what we're up to and all that is included in

00:45:18.720 your membership, head to orderaman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:45:22.220 I hope to see you inside.

00:45:23.640 I will look forward to talking to you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes.

00:45:26.860 But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.

00:45:31.540 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:45:34.500 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:45:38.160 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - April 18, 2017

109： No More Mr. Nice Guy ｜ Dr. Robert Glover

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