Order of Man - 111： Upgrading Your Career ｜ Kevin Kermes

00:00:00.260 Study after study has shown that most men are dissatisfied with their career in some

00:00:05.060 form or another, and yet finding new and more meaningful work seems to be more difficult

00:00:09.620 than ever.

00:00:10.420 My guest today, Kevin Kermis, talks with us about why that is, how you can make your current

00:00:14.700 position more meaningful, how you can make more money, how you stand out in a crowded

00:00:18.440 marketplace, and how you can upgrade your career to one you love.

00:00:22.320 You're a man of action.

00:00:23.820 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:27.980 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:32.660 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:37.720 This is your life.

00:00:38.840 This is who you are.

00:00:40.260 This is who you will become.

00:00:41.980 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:47.260 Men, what is going on today?

00:00:48.480 My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order

00:00:53.300 of Man.

00:00:53.720 I want to be the first to welcome you to what I would consider, and of course I'm biased,

00:00:57.980 the manliest podcast available today.

00:01:00.780 As I'm sure you know by now, we interview the world's most successful men, Navy SEALs,

00:01:05.120 elite warriors, New York Times bestselling authors, and so many more.

00:01:08.920 We extract their lessons and we deliver them straight to you.

00:01:12.240 Many of you also know we just got done with our second ever live event, The Uprising, and

00:01:17.780 it was such a huge success.

00:01:18.940 We had 30 men come in from all over the nation, and we focused on the physical and the mental

00:01:24.000 and emotional aspects of what it means to be a man.

00:01:27.140 I know each of them walked away with a new set of tools to take their lives to the next

00:01:31.160 level.

00:01:31.520 I was excited to have them out.

00:01:33.720 If you are interested, and I've had a lot of interest over the past several weeks, in

00:01:37.240 our next event, I want you to stay tuned because over the coming weeks, we will have some more

00:01:42.300 details for you.

00:01:43.480 And I promise you, we will sell out of the event.

00:01:46.500 We sold out of this last one pretty quickly.

00:01:48.480 And again, we've got a waiting list.

00:01:49.740 So stay tuned.

00:01:50.580 I'll let you know when that is.

00:01:51.840 In the meantime, make sure that you join the, I believe, without looking at it right

00:01:56.600 away, there's roughly 28,000 men.

00:01:59.400 We're almost at the 30,000 mark.

00:02:01.420 These guys are having some amazing, amazing conversations about what it means to be a man.

00:02:07.700 And this is all done inside of our Facebook group.

00:02:09.980 There are literally dozens of conversations happening each and every day.

00:02:14.280 You're going to get some feedback.

00:02:15.360 You're going to be able to answer your questions.

00:02:16.620 And you're going to be able to have some conversations that frankly, just aren't being

00:02:20.100 had anywhere else.

00:02:21.360 So if you want to join again, the 28,000 men, you can do that at facebook.com slash groups

00:02:27.320 slash order of men.

00:02:29.240 And second, there's always a smaller percentage, of course, but there's always a smaller percentage

00:02:34.140 of men who really want to take their lives to the next level.

00:02:38.140 And they want to go a step beyond just having those conversations.

00:02:40.940 And that is where our mastermind comes in, the iron council.

00:02:44.720 This is an opportunity for men to do, to do more than they talk about doing.

00:02:49.460 This is an opportunity for them to get the guidance and the resources and the direction

00:02:53.960 from roughly 270 other men.

00:02:57.040 And we're all working.

00:02:58.840 We're all pushing.

00:02:59.900 We're standing shoulder to shoulder and really trying to accomplish big things when it comes

00:03:03.420 to our relationships and our financial situation and our health.

00:03:06.760 And if you are interested in learning more about that exclusive mastermind, you can do so

00:03:11.600 at order of man.com slash iron council.

00:03:14.560 Now I am looking forward to introducing you to my guest today.

00:03:17.660 His name is Kevin Kermis.

00:03:19.100 He's the founder of career attraction.

00:03:21.280 And after watching some of his videos, digging through his blog, learning more about what he

00:03:25.700 was up to, I can tell you that this is the perfect man to talk about why your career

00:03:31.120 might not be as rewarding as you would like it to be.

00:03:34.240 And more importantly, how you can actually make it that way.

00:03:36.840 Kevin and his partner have more than 30 years coaching clients, including executives.

00:03:42.580 He's placed executives in fortune 100 companies.

00:03:45.360 Uh, they help corporations find great employees.

00:03:47.780 In fact, they've helped more than 14,000, 14,000 people stand out in what you and I know

00:03:54.240 to be a crowded marketplace.

00:03:55.920 He helps them make more money and of course, get the fulfillment they deserve in their careers.

00:04:02.460 Kevin, what's going on, man?

00:04:03.520 Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:04:04.780 Hey, thank you for having me.

00:04:05.880 I've seen a lot of studies out there and the numbers quite honestly are staggering.

00:04:10.040 I've seen up to 70, maybe even 80% of people who are surveyed are unhappy with their job

00:04:15.960 and their career.

00:04:16.740 I'm curious why that is.

00:04:18.380 The study, I think it was done a couple of years ago by Gallup and it ranged from fully

00:04:22.400 engaged to completely disengaged.

00:04:24.600 So the percentage, and I think it's like 82, 83% of people are considered actively disengaged,

00:04:30.120 which, and I'm sure if you have anybody at work that's sitting around you championing

00:04:33.760 mediocrity on a daily basis, you know, these people are, right?

00:04:37.360 Yeah, sure.

00:04:37.760 And the reality is, is that I think we, in many cases, I mean, I know I've been there

00:04:41.440 before, you know, where does it, where does it come from?

00:04:43.680 And more importantly, like, what do you do about it?

00:04:46.020 And I tend to believe that it comes from people focusing on the wrong things when they're looking

00:04:51.760 at trying to find work that they love or work that fulfills them and not the follow your

00:04:56.580 passion stuff, but stuff that satisfies your soul.

00:04:59.500 And you and I were talking before we came on about serving in the military.

00:05:02.040 If you've been in roles like that, that purpose is a really hard thing to find when you get

00:05:06.080 out and hard to align with.

00:05:07.420 And I think that extends to all of us.

00:05:10.200 In many cases, it starts out with individuals targeting jobs simply based off of job title,

00:05:15.820 job description versus digging.

00:05:17.700 Income, I imagine.

00:05:18.500 Right.

00:05:18.880 Yeah.

00:05:19.140 Income's a big one.

00:05:20.020 I had a conversation with a potential client the other day who all he was focused on was,

00:05:23.480 I've been looking at X, Y, and Z jobs because that's how much I need to make.

00:05:26.280 Right.

00:05:26.560 And I said, well, that's, that's awesome, man.

00:05:28.060 But unless you can make a compelling case to any future employer, how that investment

00:05:32.900 in you, you're going to return 10 X plus easily.

00:05:37.220 Nobody cares.

00:05:38.260 Right.

00:05:38.500 Like, it's fantastic that you've already allotted where your W2 is going, brother, but nobody

00:05:43.280 else cares.

00:05:44.540 That's right.

00:05:44.800 So some of it's that, you know, kind of having a, having a bigger picture about where it

00:05:48.180 fits in and what you really want to do.

00:05:49.980 Cause as my years as a headhunter and I did that for about 10 years, I don't care how good

00:05:54.340 anybody was, there was no way you can sustain when you don't like what you're doing.

00:05:59.860 There's like, there's a limited lifeline to that.

00:06:01.920 And that holds true for any of us.

00:06:03.280 You talk about satisfying your soul.

00:06:04.860 That's the term you use.

00:06:05.760 What's the difference between finding work that satisfies your soul versus the passion

00:06:10.160 thing, which it sounds like you're not in favor of.

00:06:12.020 I mean, for some people, right, it's just how they define those words.

00:06:14.700 So maybe a distinction without a difference, you know, passion to me is, okay, I love to

00:06:18.620 surf.

00:06:19.100 I love to surf and I love to fish.

00:06:20.540 I don't do either one of those things well enough to where anybody in their right mind

00:06:23.840 is going to pay me to do them.

00:06:25.500 And, and I also think that if I were to do them and I was getting paid, now it may suck

00:06:31.760 the fun out of them for me.

00:06:33.280 Cause now it's become a job.

00:06:34.860 I always, when we'll look at people, we have clients who come to us and we start looking

00:06:39.140 at, they know they want to make a pivot.

00:06:40.600 They know they want to move somewhere else and they're not quite sure what that looks like.

00:06:43.400 And pivots used to be maybe indulgences or, or things that we weren't necessarily going

00:06:48.980 to have to, they were kind of a choice.

00:06:50.400 And now as rapidly as things change, change is a constant for all of us.

00:06:54.840 Like that's, that's not even, it's not even a paradigm shift in terms of the work.

00:06:58.640 Like it's just, it's a reality in life, right?

00:07:01.020 When you kind of take that into consideration, I think that what you need to do is detach from

00:07:07.240 the job description, detach from the job that you're in and focus on the things that you

00:07:11.280 do really well, the outcomes that you produce for other people.

00:07:14.640 And to me that typically it's very rare that there is not alignment between that and stuff

00:07:20.340 that you really enjoy doing.

00:07:21.600 It's a really rare situation where there are things that we do exceptionally well that we

00:07:25.460 don't enjoy doing.

00:07:26.400 That's where we try to focus in with people and that's where we, you know, we encourage

00:07:29.700 people to focus.

00:07:31.060 So if I understand you correctly, it sounds like passion might be more something that may

00:07:35.060 be a hobby, but work that satisfies the soul might be maybe your ability to provide value

00:07:40.640 to others that you happen to like as well.

00:07:43.220 Absolutely.

00:07:43.580 And this is an exercise I did coming out of the army and granted it was like more years

00:07:47.700 ago than I care to admit.

00:07:49.240 I was a rifle platoon leader and then a rifle company executive officer.

00:07:52.920 And I put together my resume and I thought I knew all the things that I did that were

00:07:57.260 valuable and it was all the stuff that I was proud of.

00:07:59.520 But particularly as an XO, because I had four different commanders, I went to each one of

00:08:04.720 them and said, okay, when you think of me, what do you think of?

00:08:07.400 And what is it that I did that made your life easier?

00:08:09.700 And I honestly can't tell you what the response was, but I do remember at that time, and this

00:08:14.200 is before I ever became a headhunter, realizing, man, you know, these are the guys who hired

00:08:19.000 me, essentially.

00:08:20.180 Their perception of my value is different than mine.

00:08:23.420 But the reality is their perception matters because that's my market.

00:08:26.900 Right.

00:08:26.980 I'm never going to hire myself.

00:08:28.940 You know, we do this all the time.

00:08:30.400 You know, we go through these exercises with clients around messaging and, you know, they'll

00:08:34.180 say, God, do you like the message we come up with?

00:08:36.120 I'm like, yeah, I love it.

00:08:37.260 But it doesn't matter what I think because I'm not the market.

00:08:39.600 So now we need to go out and test it.

00:08:41.400 And the market's going to tell us.

00:08:42.500 The market's going to tell us what resonates, what doesn't, where they find value.

00:08:45.380 And you got to listen to that.

00:08:46.640 And where people fight that, it's, I mean, it's like trying to fight gravity.

00:08:50.780 Sure.

00:08:51.020 No, I agree with you.

00:08:51.900 I mean, that perception is of others is so, so critical, whether you're trying to find

00:08:55.720 a job or even sell something to somebody.

00:08:57.900 Right.

00:08:58.120 How do you, how do you identify or begin to even maybe observe what other people's perception

00:09:04.020 of you is so that you can maybe find more meaningful?

00:09:07.940 Oh, that's such a great question.

00:09:09.800 Right.

00:09:10.120 So when the whole personal brand thing came out, I remember this came out when we launched

00:09:14.060 our company in 2008 and personal brand thing is starting to become big and everybody

00:09:18.360 would talk about, oh, I want a personal brand.

00:09:20.060 And I had a friend of mine who did this work and said, you know, the reality is you have

00:09:23.620 one.

00:09:24.180 It's just a question of whether you have any control over people.

00:09:26.320 A personal brand is opinion.

00:09:28.260 And a personal brand is an opinion that then is shared when people are like, hey, man, do

00:09:31.840 you know this guy, Ryan?

00:09:32.880 What do you think about him?

00:09:34.060 As people are doing their backdoor reference checks on people or as just the degrees of separation

00:09:40.940 that between all of us.

00:09:42.440 Right.

00:09:43.100 I think that going to people who you've worked with before, worked for before, if you've had

00:09:48.080 vendors and anybody who's coming into contact with you and asking them candidly.

00:09:53.120 Now, here's the thing.

00:09:54.000 You have to be selective about how you do this because some people are not going to be honest

00:09:57.620 with you.

00:09:58.080 Right.

00:09:58.200 It's just sort of like going and asking for professional advice.

00:10:01.120 But what you mean, and I just before you move on, I want to clarify on this and make sure

00:10:05.460 I understand correctly.

00:10:06.120 When you say they're not going to be honest with you, I imagine they're going to be overly

00:10:10.540 nice to you as opposed to real.

00:10:12.880 Exactly.

00:10:13.540 OK.

00:10:13.920 All right.

00:10:14.140 I want to make sure I got so kind of quantifying the feedback.

00:10:16.940 Right.

00:10:17.140 And that feeds into the next point, which is asking for professional feedback from people

00:10:22.160 who aren't qualified to give it to you.

00:10:24.760 I'll use like an anecdotal example and then one that's kind of an analogy.

00:10:29.140 So the so the first one is I think about it.

00:10:31.380 I'm sure you've experienced this in business when when you're going and asking for advice

00:10:34.740 on where you're going to pivot or maybe the next evolution for order of man.

00:10:38.000 You're typically going to people who have achieved the things that you want to achieve, not someone

00:10:42.260 who hasn't done it.

00:10:43.460 Even in communities, when you ask for opinions on things, you've got to make sure that the

00:10:48.480 feedback you're getting are from the most qualified people.

00:10:50.620 So the mastermind, the community, the Iron Council that you have, that's the best place

00:10:54.320 for you to go get feedback because these are customers.

00:10:57.200 These are clients.

00:10:57.980 These are people who have voted with their wallets.

00:10:59.860 And these are the people that I want to attract more.

00:11:01.800 Exactly.

00:11:02.640 Right.

00:11:02.900 Exactly.

00:11:03.260 So that's the most qualified feedback.

00:11:05.560 And I know, by the way, whether you work for yourself or you work for somebody else is

00:11:09.360 just, well, first of all, we all work for somebody else.

00:11:11.580 Don't kid yourself.

00:11:12.620 You were all serving someone else or serving some outcome.

00:11:15.980 It's semantics.

00:11:16.960 All this stuff applies whether you are an entrepreneur or whether you're working in a Fortune 100 company.

00:11:21.840 I mean, that is an absolute truth.

00:11:24.140 As you're looking at that feedback, you want to find people who've done the things that you

00:11:28.020 that you've done that have gone the places that you want to go.

00:11:31.640 People who have worked with you versus friends and family.

00:11:34.720 I mean, if I ask my mom the best things about me, I mean, I'm going to feel fantastic.

00:11:38.800 Right, of course.

00:11:39.360 But it might not serve you very well.

00:11:40.840 I'm not sure I'm going to pay the mortgage with that, right?

00:11:43.240 Right, right.

00:11:43.720 That's it.

00:11:44.300 And the flip side, I use this example all the time of having sold houses in the past.

00:11:48.820 And one of my chief frustrations that I've always had with real estate agents is, you

00:11:52.240 know, you hold an open house and they give you this feedback.

00:11:54.120 And then when I say, OK, well, if I fix X, Y, and Z for these people, would they buy?

00:11:57.080 And they say no, because they're looking at a house that's $300,000 cheaper than yours.

00:12:00.660 Well, that's not qualified feedback.

00:12:03.060 And it's harder to weed that out.

00:12:04.880 It's particularly harder to weed that out when if you take this and take it to the extreme

00:12:09.340 when you're in the midst of a job search and you're trying to look for feedback on why

00:12:12.680 you didn't move forward in the process somewhere, it's compounded with people are not going

00:12:16.860 to tell you the truth because they are.

00:12:18.940 How do you get this feedback?

00:12:19.780 Because let's say you're interviewing over and over and over again and you're trying to

00:12:23.380 find a position.

00:12:24.060 I mean, you're not going to get much feedback from somebody who chooses not to hire you.

00:12:27.220 So how do you find out how your skills are when it comes to presenting yourself?

00:12:31.180 Is it just a matter of going to other people like you're talking about?

00:12:34.080 I work backwards from the outcome.

00:12:35.620 So the outcome is getting an offer.

00:12:37.620 So if you're if you're getting the offer and you're getting the offer that's aligned with

00:12:40.940 what you want and the work is aligned.

00:12:42.860 So, you know, the question is, can you do the job?

00:12:44.820 Do you want to do the job?

00:12:46.580 And if we're looking at it through the lens of the person hiring you and I'm not talking

00:12:50.360 about HR recruiters, I'm talking about the individual you work for.

00:12:53.120 And let me so let me back up on that.

00:12:55.180 So much of the advice that is out there comes from recruiters and HR professionals.

00:13:00.760 And these people do not hire you.

00:13:02.520 And moreover, they are disconnected from the actual pain that you're going to address because

00:13:06.480 a job description is never going to tap into what's keeping your future boss up at night.

00:13:11.820 What is the thing that they're sitting there thinking, OK, Ryan left.

00:13:14.700 Ryan was a top performer.

00:13:15.940 I need to replace him.

00:13:17.500 And every day that this position is open, I've got to offload that work on to other people.

00:13:21.220 There's a limited tensile strength for that.

00:13:23.680 It's slowing down productivity.

00:13:24.980 It's keeping me from getting a raise.

00:13:26.560 It's reflecting on me with my boss that I'm not able to get top talent in here.

00:13:30.540 Maybe it's reflecting that I've lost top talent.

00:13:32.960 Conversely, if somebody had to be fired because they were underperformers, those things, it's

00:13:37.480 like a breakup, right?

00:13:38.940 Sure.

00:13:39.120 First thing that you focus on is you focus on the issues of your ex because that is the

00:13:43.560 most palpable.

00:13:44.800 You can taste that.

00:13:45.760 You know exactly what that feels like.

00:13:47.480 If you go all the way back to starting this process, the information and the data and

00:13:52.440 the intel that you're getting, if it is driven off of an online job description, nobody's

00:13:56.940 sharing that.

00:13:58.020 And it's certainly nobody sharing as you get into more senior roles where the gaps really

00:14:02.100 are in their leadership or the severe problems that a privately or publicly traded company

00:14:06.600 is having in marketing, in sales, in operations, whatever that the position is going to fill.

00:14:11.780 So how do you get to the heart of the matter knowing that there's probably more going on than

00:14:15.840 just what the description is looking for?

00:14:17.700 Right.

00:14:17.940 So this comes full circle and that's figuring out what is the thing that lights you up?

00:14:22.800 Where's the value that you provide?

00:14:24.620 You're a precision instrument.

00:14:26.500 What is it?

00:14:27.040 Seth Godin wrote a book, Linchpin, years ago, which is about being a linchpin and not the 0.85

00:14:31.060 cock.

00:14:31.300 It is.

00:14:31.660 I mean, I read that and I was like, oh my God, this is kind of like, this is what my work's

00:14:35.980 been all centered about.

00:14:36.540 Yeah, it's so powerful.

00:14:37.440 And it's an awesome book.

00:14:38.720 So I highly recommend everybody read it.

00:14:40.180 And that's it.

00:14:40.840 Start with that.

00:14:41.920 Figure out what it is you do really well.

00:14:44.260 And instead of trying to be all things to all people, which all of a sudden, by the

00:14:47.980 way, positions you as a commodity.

00:14:49.840 Sure.

00:14:50.560 Right now you're lumped in with everybody else.

00:14:52.560 Figure out what your message is.

00:14:54.100 Do exactly what you see entrepreneurs doing exactly.

00:14:57.340 You are not morphing the message at order of man to whomever comes in the door.

00:15:01.780 You are crystal clear on who you serve, what you can do for these men, and you don't deviate

00:15:07.360 from it.

00:15:07.940 Everyone should do that.

00:15:09.540 And the fear that somehow or another you're going to miss out, which I know is powerful.

00:15:13.360 It's exceptionally powerful.

00:15:14.480 I mean, you had a guest on talking about how powerful the fear of missing out is, right?

00:15:18.160 Yeah, of course.

00:15:18.820 That was an awesome interview, by the way.

00:15:20.900 And the fear of missing out detracts people from the one thing, those things that you do

00:15:26.520 exceptionally well are the things that are going to get you paid exponentially higher.

00:15:30.460 And not everyone is going to resonate with that.

00:15:32.440 But when you lead with that message, then that person who's sitting in there with that

00:15:36.000 position open, who is the decision maker, is going, oh my God, this is the person I need

00:15:41.020 to talk to because what they are talking about is the exact problem I'm dealing with right

00:15:45.880 now.

00:15:46.500 And everything else, all those other job descriptions, there's no question about why did you leave

00:15:50.760 the last job?

00:15:51.980 Well, what happened here?

00:15:53.180 Why is your tenure this?

00:15:54.760 Why didn't you manage more people?

00:15:56.140 You're now talking about the thing that is the biggest number one emotional driver for the

00:16:00.640 person who's going to hire you.

00:16:01.900 And just like when we buy stuff, we hire people because we are chasing an emotional outcome.

00:16:06.400 It's no different.

00:16:07.140 How do you communicate that effectively in a short period of time?

00:16:11.100 Because like, for example, it sounds like you've listened to the podcast, you know a

00:16:15.240 little bit about our message, and I've been going for two years versus, hey, I've got 20

00:16:19.500 minutes with you to impress you enough to give me another chance, a second interview or whatever

00:16:24.840 it may be, or a callback, whatever.

00:16:26.380 So there are two things.

00:16:27.180 I'll say number one, in terms of a broader message, before you even get to that meeting,

00:16:31.200 there's a technique that I use called the XYZ technique, which is I help X do or understand, 0.98

00:16:37.140 understand Y so that Z.

00:16:39.660 So I help X.

00:16:41.020 X is the audience you serve.

00:16:42.900 So you wouldn't say just companies.

00:16:44.400 You would get more specific.

00:16:45.960 A good friend of mine, Ryan Lee, taught this to me years ago, going two layers down.

00:16:50.400 So whatever your market is, go two more layers down.

00:16:53.440 So it's not just companies.

00:16:54.540 Maybe it's early stage companies.

00:16:55.960 Maybe it's early stage technology companies.

00:16:58.040 Maybe it's early stage technology companies that are past their Series A funding.

00:17:01.920 Sure.

00:17:02.500 Or like order a man, it might be married men with children or something like that. 0.53

00:17:07.240 Right.

00:17:07.540 Exactly.

00:17:08.500 That it gets clearer where people are going, that's me, that's me.

00:17:12.140 The problem should be that thing that keeps them up at night.

00:17:14.480 So it's not I help companies increase revenue, decrease expenditures.

00:17:18.060 Like that's blah.

00:17:19.660 It needs to be that thing that, yeah, it's going to weed out a lot of people.

00:17:23.640 But it's not about what you're losing.

00:17:25.820 It's about what you're gaining.

00:17:26.820 It's about connecting with those people that say, I have that specific problem.

00:17:29.760 And then the outcome is what they covet.

00:17:33.320 What is the thing that you want somebody to ultimately, and this is where you've got to

00:17:37.000 take this out and test it and there are iterations of it, but you need somebody to go, that's

00:17:41.080 me.

00:17:41.400 That's my problem.

00:17:42.260 And oh my God, if only life looked like that and get very targeted.

00:17:46.820 So that's kind of the broader thing that you want to be able to hand off to.

00:17:49.720 These are the things that your spouse, that your wife should be able to say when somebody

00:17:54.040 says, hey, what does Ryan do?

00:17:56.020 This is what he does.

00:17:57.260 Sure.

00:17:57.560 I, I, you're, and I'll share the story really quickly.

00:17:59.600 Years ago, I was at a party with my wife.

00:18:02.060 My wife is my number one, biggest advocate, bar none, exceptionally smart woman. 1.00

00:18:06.140 And one of her friends was describing what her husband did.

00:18:08.380 And she said, I don't know.

00:18:10.320 It's really hard to explain.

00:18:11.820 He'd have to explain it for you.

00:18:13.280 Now, this is not an issue of her not understanding it.

00:18:16.020 It is that, well, this is how I saw it.

00:18:17.980 I'm like, what a missed opportunity.

00:18:19.840 Your number one, biggest advocate doesn't articulate to people who are asking what you do, what you

00:18:25.200 do, which, which if you look at it, like you've got all these people who can carry

00:18:28.540 your message forward.

00:18:29.540 To me, I think that's a big lesson for all of us to arm that message and arm those advocates

00:18:34.960 with that message.

00:18:35.600 And that goes beyond our spouses all the way into colleagues and anybody we're ever going

00:18:39.280 to bump into.

00:18:39.820 So going back to the question you asked before, when you're sitting in that interview, one

00:18:44.200 of the things that people are always going to ask is the tell me about yourself question,

00:18:48.180 which is just like, and the older you get, I turned 47 this year.

00:18:52.000 Tell me about yourself.

00:18:52.960 I'm like, where do you want me to start?

00:18:56.700 And I guarantee you 99% of it you don't care about.

00:18:59.880 Turn it around and say, you know, listen, I've got a long background in talent acquisition.

00:19:04.340 I was a headhunter, started a couple search firms, sold them.

00:19:06.860 I've had this company since 2008, we reverse engineer.

00:19:09.860 But what I have found is I'm really good at these three things and to be able to break

00:19:16.460 them down very quickly.

00:19:18.080 Or if you have a broader skill set, I mean, I would contend with you that if you've got

00:19:22.540 more than three things, you're probably watered down, right?

00:19:25.900 Way too broad.

00:19:26.980 I'd ask them and say, look, I've got a, I've got a really broad background, turn it around

00:19:30.480 and make it about them.

00:19:31.340 People love to talk about themselves, right?

00:19:33.420 Well, I was going to say, it sounds like what they might really be asking is tell me about

00:19:38.500 something in your background that would help us get what we want to have.

00:19:42.480 That's probably the real question they're asking.

00:19:44.400 It is.

00:19:45.120 So you just turn that question around on them and say, tell me in this role, like what

00:19:48.740 are the, what are the things you're looking for?

00:19:50.160 Why is the role open?

00:19:51.820 What is it that is critical to the success in this role?

00:19:54.920 I'm sure you got a lot of people walking in here with 20 plus years experience, 10 years,

00:19:58.480 15, whatever, whatever the range is, like what's critical stuff?

00:20:01.420 What's got to happen in the first 90 days?

00:20:03.020 And then they start talking about their problems.

00:20:05.120 So you're not defending your resume.

00:20:06.760 You're not having the same conversation everybody else is having.

00:20:09.360 More importantly, you're having the conversation that is about the thing that is most important

00:20:12.420 to them.

00:20:13.000 What you'll find out is whether they've actually thought through that because a lot of times

00:20:16.900 companies haven't thought through that.

00:20:18.800 They haven't really considered it.

00:20:20.300 It basically sounds like a fundamental shift between somebody going in to be interviewed versus

00:20:25.620 me as the person, quote unquote, being interviewed, actually interviewing the company.

00:20:30.020 Reactive versus proactive.

00:20:31.880 Yeah.

00:20:32.100 You're driving the conversation because you're also sitting there.

00:20:35.120 I know everybody says this, but I don't think a lot of people believe it.

00:20:37.820 You're sitting there assessing whether or not it's what you really want to do.

00:20:41.680 One of the first things I experienced when I was a headhunter is you get the wish list

00:20:44.960 that the company says they want.

00:20:46.740 And I would always go visit clients.

00:20:48.140 And it was hilarious because I worked in finance and accounting initially.

00:20:51.220 It's a history major with a Spanish minor.

00:20:52.680 I like I high five myself and I balance a checkbook.

00:20:55.660 So it blew my mind that I had companies paying me an absurd amount of money to place controllers

00:21:01.420 and CFOs with them.

00:21:02.500 But they would always say back then it was big five accounting.

00:21:04.720 Now it's big four.

00:21:05.620 Yeah.

00:21:05.760 We want somebody with a big five accounting background.

00:21:07.600 I go in there.

00:21:08.360 I'd meet everybody, including the CFO.

00:21:10.640 None of them had it.

00:21:11.660 So what they were telling me is their perfect prom date, but they didn't have it.

00:21:15.580 And for me, the reality was like if I line those people up in there, they're going to walk

00:21:18.860 in and go, I want to find people from Anderson, E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG, PwC.

00:21:23.140 Like they're not going to find any of those people.

00:21:25.240 They're not going to find them.

00:21:26.340 So it was never going to work.

00:21:27.620 So it was a matter of efficiency for me.

00:21:29.880 But if you take that forward to, again, just driving things off of a job description,

00:21:34.780 most of the time you're just chasing your tail.

00:21:38.260 Gentlemen, I just wanted to take a quick minute, a quick pause in this conversation to tell you

00:21:42.760 again about our exclusive mastermind, The Iron Council.

00:21:45.240 This, as you know by now, is a brotherhood of men who are interested in surrounding themselves

00:21:50.780 with those on a very similar mission with regards to their families and their businesses,

00:21:55.660 their financial situation, and their life in general.

00:21:59.300 There is nothing that can replace a group of strong and dedicated men who have your back

00:22:04.740 and who are willing to say and do the things that need to be said and done to help you achieve

00:22:09.640 success.

00:22:10.240 So if you're ready to improve your life, your relationships, your business, your health,

00:22:14.240 your bank account, I invite you personally to join The Iron Council.

00:22:17.980 You're going to get all of the tools, the guidance, the resources, the direction that

00:22:21.280 you need to take your life to the next level.

00:22:23.880 And you can learn more about what we're up to and claim your spot at orderofman.com

00:22:27.700 slash Iron Council.

00:22:29.120 This month, we're talking all about wealth building, and I hope to see you there.

00:22:32.800 Now, let me get back to my conversation with Kevin.

00:22:37.000 How do you develop the confidence to do this?

00:22:39.540 Because I don't think I would have a problem doing that.

00:22:41.580 It certainly doesn't sound like you would have a problem doing that because this is your

00:22:44.360 life's work. 0.96

00:22:44.960 But how does somebody who maybe even desperately needs a position go in with the balls, frankly,

00:22:51.500 to interview a company versus the other way around?

00:22:54.040 I'm going to channel my inner Jocko Willink and just say, you just do it.

00:22:58.660 You make the decision to shift and create this as a habit.

00:23:02.920 You just do it.

00:23:03.600 But this is definitely one of those places where you are going to run into the lizard

00:23:08.720 brain kicking back against you constantly because there's a lot of friction.

00:23:14.860 There is the internal friction of, am I good enough?

00:23:17.800 Am I really smart enough?

00:23:19.100 You can always find, I mean, unless you are just massively self-absorbed, you can always

00:23:23.540 find somebody who's better than you.

00:23:25.020 There's no doubt.

00:23:25.860 I mean, on the broad continuum, are you the absolute best?

00:23:29.000 I don't know.

00:23:29.780 Are you the best athlete sitting in front of them right now?

00:23:32.340 Well, you could be, right?

00:23:34.360 So you could be the best.

00:23:35.560 And that's all that really matters.

00:23:37.300 But to your point, yeah, I mean, the statistical likelihood that you are the absolute best,

00:23:40.940 whatever in the world that means, right, is like slim and none.

00:23:44.780 But that's where we start tearing ourselves down.

00:23:47.680 And what I would say to those people who are introverted, and I am, contrary to how I may

00:23:52.500 sound, I'm absolutely introverted.

00:23:54.280 I go to one-on-one events or, you know, like I was in Baltimore for the last couple of days

00:23:58.700 meeting with people.

00:23:59.740 I'm zapped after that.

00:24:01.080 If you find that you are introverted, and this is challenging to you, just make the

00:24:06.020 conversation about them.

00:24:08.220 Just find out as much as you possibly can about them and asking questions.

00:24:12.880 You're going to find where there's a fit.

00:24:14.700 That's when you're telling stories that are germane to what their issue is and are going

00:24:19.680 to have value for them and are going to help them.

00:24:22.120 And if nothing else, even if, and this is the one thing I would say, is you're doing this

00:24:25.540 as a practice.

00:24:26.800 You're becoming a hub.

00:24:27.960 What do you mean by that?

00:24:29.620 If you look at how information flows, which is the most valuable thing in terms of relationships,

00:24:34.900 I know what's important to you.

00:24:36.600 If I know what's important to all of the people who are kind of in my inner circle, then as

00:24:41.640 information passes through me, I can connect other people, which is how I stay top of mind.

00:24:47.000 If you're new to the concept, the best place in the world to start is when you're out looking

00:24:51.340 for a job and you find out about opportunities that aren't a fit.

00:24:54.480 You don't stop with not gathering information about them anymore.

00:24:57.860 You gather more information because now that's collateral.

00:25:00.420 That's collateral that you can trade with other people.

00:25:02.660 It's information you can take out to headhunters who are good, who you want to stay top of mind.

00:25:06.880 And instead of always asking them what they can do for you, you're demonstrating what you

00:25:10.800 can do for them.

00:25:11.780 To me, the information is one of the most powerful collateral that you can have.

00:25:15.580 It almost sounds like the analogy that I would use is going to a car dealership for a negotiation.

00:25:20.700 You should not go into a negotiation with a car dealership without having some really

00:25:24.740 good information about the worth of the vehicle, the cost, the wiggling room, all of that stuff.

00:25:29.800 And that knowledge is power.

00:25:31.440 Absolutely.

00:25:32.160 I want to back up in this conversation because I think it's really easy to look externally

00:25:35.540 and the grass is greener on the other side.

00:25:37.340 And so a lot of guys will say, oh, if only I had that job or only if I wasn't here trapped

00:25:41.440 by whatever limitations I'm in right now.

00:25:43.280 But I do think there's something to be said for looking internally.

00:25:47.420 And I'm really curious how a man who may be dissatisfied with his current position or

00:25:52.720 his current employment might make the most of where he currently is.

00:25:57.080 I'm not a big believer in, you know, like some cost.

00:25:59.960 I think that's one of the biggest fallacies out there.

00:26:02.080 Right.

00:26:02.340 But if you're inside an organization, you have spent time there.

00:26:06.140 There are definitely things that you find positive about the organization.

00:26:10.380 If you feel like you're aligned with them, right, because that that's the stuff that

00:26:13.580 really matters.

00:26:14.060 Like when we get down to purpose, you can functionally go do what you do anywhere.

00:26:17.600 But are you aligned with the other people or, you know, if you got the right environment

00:26:21.120 around you, you owe it to yourself to figure out are some of the things that are holding

00:26:25.180 you back things that you could potentially fix.

00:26:27.720 Right.

00:26:27.900 I mean, I would honestly say I would imagine that most people who are listening to this

00:26:31.420 podcast are going to fall into that category of having some level of self-awareness,

00:26:36.760 if not a high level of self-awareness or desire to heighten their level of self-awareness,

00:26:41.260 because it's it's about improving yourself.

00:26:43.900 It's about becoming a better version of you.

00:26:45.800 And that's a that's a never ending process.

00:26:48.280 And I know you've talked about this and I know you talk about this in the Facebook group

00:26:51.540 a good bit.

00:26:52.240 The thing, in my opinion, that will propel you forward or hold you back more so than the

00:26:57.320 work you do is who you surround yourself with.

00:26:59.880 There is like no heavier anchor in the world than having people who are not on the same

00:27:06.340 azimuth that you are.

00:27:07.720 Sure.

00:27:07.900 I'm not talking about like Pollyanna supportive, like, oh, it's great.

00:27:10.980 It's fantastic.

00:27:11.660 I love what you're doing.

00:27:12.560 But people who share the same core values.

00:27:14.540 Right.

00:27:15.320 And truly believe in it and want to help you move forward in whatever it is you're doing,

00:27:19.680 whether it's one small area you want to improve in or you want to make some massive

00:27:22.920 shift.

00:27:23.880 Yeah.

00:27:24.060 I mean, this makes sense, obviously, just the ability to surround yourself with people who want

00:27:28.100 to go in the same direction as you is critical.

00:27:30.820 How do you begin to explore some of the activities and interests and then start crafting maybe

00:27:38.080 your job search around the things that you might be passionate about or would satisfy your

00:27:42.880 soul?

00:27:43.080 Well, I think going back to what you the last question, first of all, start where you are.

00:27:47.260 Here's the reality.

00:27:48.640 In most organizations, particularly small and midsize companies, the the beg for forgiveness

00:27:54.180 approach is a much better, much better one to take than saying, here's my job description

00:28:00.140 and I can't go outside.

00:28:01.940 You know, my I've got my left and my right limit and that's I can't go beyond those versus

00:28:06.940 saying identify there's a problem and don't necessarily go ask for something to be given

00:28:13.100 to you.

00:28:13.740 Maybe go to your boss with it with a slow you identify that there's an area that you want

00:28:17.480 to you want to grow into inside your company.

00:28:19.340 You identify that there's a problem.

00:28:21.260 Go to your boss and and say, look, I see that X isn't being done well or I think that there's

00:28:27.720 an ability to improve this by five, ten percent.

00:28:30.920 I would like to do X, Y and Z.

00:28:33.140 I've got it all mapped out.

00:28:34.100 I don't need the resources.

00:28:35.080 Just let me go.

00:28:35.700 You're not asking for anything other than an opportunity to a improve productivity, drive

00:28:40.940 increased revenue, decrease costs for an organization.

00:28:44.040 Well, that's B. A is you are giving you on your own dime in your own time.

00:28:49.460 Are offering to make your boss look better.

00:28:52.460 And think about I tell you how refreshing that is.

00:28:54.720 Yeah.

00:28:55.040 You don't want anything because here's the thing you want.

00:28:57.060 You want the outcome.

00:28:58.640 You want the because once you've got the outcome, once you have done something, now you've got

00:29:02.840 a narrative to take forward and people will get caught like when when people are unemployed

00:29:07.060 and we run into this all the time where they say, well, I want to do X.

00:29:10.400 I've been doing it, but I haven't been getting paid for it.

00:29:12.640 Nobody cares whether you've gotten paid for it or not.

00:29:14.920 They care whether you've done it well.

00:29:16.260 Right, right.

00:29:16.820 Like that, that's, that's infinitely whether you've produced the outcome is infinitely 0.98

00:29:20.160 better than you used to get paid for it and you sucked at it. 0.94

00:29:22.520 Right.

00:29:23.180 So, so is there a danger then in going into this and expecting something out of it or

00:29:29.840 where's the balance between, Hey, I'm going to do this because I want to prove my worth

00:29:33.120 versus I expect a raise or I expect a promotion or I expect them to create this position for

00:29:38.240 me.

00:29:38.600 There is the quid pro quo in this is that what's valuable to you is that you get

00:29:42.400 the experience, you get the outcome, right?

00:29:45.020 So let's scratch experience.

00:29:46.180 You get the outcome.

00:29:47.060 You've produced this outcome.

00:29:48.520 Now you have something to negotiate with.

00:29:50.440 Hey, I've done this.

00:29:51.880 I see it's the consulting model, right?

00:29:53.660 Consultants come in and they fix one thing and then they're able to diagnose and they've

00:29:59.340 got a value proposition around the fact that they've delivered a specific outcome and

00:30:02.900 they can say, you paid us X and we gave you a five to 10 X return.

00:30:06.600 Now we'd like to do that elsewhere.

00:30:09.400 And most of the time it's sure.

00:30:11.340 Cause actually you've just generated the money to be able to fund, which you can further do.

00:30:15.000 This is no different to be able to go to your boss and say, I did this.

00:30:18.500 What I'd like to talk about is doing this on a broader scale.

00:30:21.080 And since that's going to increase my responsibility and you've got to do your math, you've got to

00:30:25.380 figure out what's it worth, what's it producing for them, lay it out for them, make the case

00:30:29.840 because in most cases they're not, I mean, unless they own the company and even if they

00:30:33.460 own the company, just make it simple for them.

00:30:35.380 The more thinking they, it's like anything else in life, the more thinking they have

00:30:38.440 to do about it, the more processing they have to do, make it a no brainer, lay it out for

00:30:42.640 them.

00:30:42.960 And then if here again, if the lizard brain's kicking in and saying, ah, they wouldn't do

00:30:47.220 that.

00:30:47.840 Fine.

00:30:48.600 You've got the outcome.

00:30:50.000 Now you can go market the outcome externally because I guarantee you there's somebody out

00:30:53.620 there that's willing to pay for it.

00:30:55.080 Right.

00:30:55.340 Yeah.

00:30:55.560 And that's, that's the front end of the pivot.

00:30:57.400 So they have, instead of it's very, to me, it's very short, short sighted to look at taking

00:31:03.700 a project like that on and think, well, I'm not getting paid for it.

00:31:06.760 If you can produce the outcome, now you have something of value that, that no one can take

00:31:11.620 away from you.

00:31:12.220 No one can, no one can demote you.

00:31:13.980 Nobody can, they can't take this away from you.

00:31:16.160 Like they can take title away, money away, job away.

00:31:18.860 You have it.

00:31:19.380 It's tangible.

00:31:19.960 It's like, that's, and that is true stability.

00:31:22.920 Well, I was going to say, I imagine there's a level of comp, not imagine.

00:31:25.460 I know there's a level of confidence and swagger that comes from doing a job well done outside

00:31:31.560 of you getting monetarily compensated for it.

00:31:34.180 Absolutely.

00:31:35.140 Absolutely.

00:31:35.840 Yeah.

00:31:36.100 Talk to me.

00:31:36.640 I'm going to rewind here a little bit because one of the terms you used, which we use in

00:31:40.140 my financial planning practice is this idea of sunk cost fallacy, which is the inability

00:31:45.880 or desire not to give up on something because you've invested so much time or resources in

00:31:50.040 it.

00:31:50.140 But talk to me about what you mean and why that is something guys should try to avoid.

00:31:54.560 The study I always think about is when Netflix first came on the scene and Blockbuster, you

00:32:00.120 know, was the, was the brand to beat and Blockbuster doubled down on physical stores while they were

00:32:05.280 clearly watching their customers stop coming in and order DVDs online and get them delivered

00:32:10.500 to their house.

00:32:11.100 And that decision to stick with this large brick and mortar structure that they could

00:32:18.180 clearly see wasn't working because they had spent all this money on it was exceptionally

00:32:23.440 short-sighted.

00:32:24.480 Right.

00:32:24.780 And, and now, now they don't exist.

00:32:26.320 So same thing happens in our careers.

00:32:28.420 We say, well, I've got 15 years doing X, no one's going to hire me.

00:32:33.020 I'm not going to be able to move.

00:32:34.240 I'm not going to be able to change.

00:32:35.900 Here's what I will say for all of that.

00:32:38.380 If you're, if you're kind of mired in where you are, I think it's a Bureau of Labor and

00:32:42.260 Statistics did this study.

00:32:43.680 I, you know, I've got a son who's three daughter, who's 20, my three-year-old, when he enters

00:32:48.260 the world of work, 70% of the jobs that he will do are estimated to not exist now.

00:32:53.920 Interesting.

00:32:54.240 So the, so the pace at which we change, you tell me, could you have told me five years

00:32:58.800 ago, this is how you'd be generating revenue and running a business?

00:33:01.640 I couldn't even tell you that two and a half years ago.

00:33:03.720 Right.

00:33:03.920 If you told, if you told me when I came out of the military, what I was doing now, first

00:33:07.780 of all, I wouldn't have understood what you were talking about.

00:33:09.740 Like a low home would have set in like 30 seconds after you started talking to me.

00:33:13.820 That's the pace at which things are changing.

00:33:15.980 So change is a constant.

00:33:17.840 So the more that, the more that people get defensive about, well, in my industry, this is how it

00:33:23.020 works.

00:33:23.860 Or my industry only allows me to move this far, or I do X and I could never do Y that limited

00:33:31.400 thinking, not only is a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of you've already, you've already

00:33:36.740 made the decision on how far and where you're going to go.

00:33:39.680 But moreover creativity, there's a, there's a great book out there by Tyler Pearson who

00:33:45.540 wrote a book talking about the, and I can't remember the, the name of the title of the

00:33:49.980 book now to apologize for that.

00:33:51.800 Cause I feel like I'm rambling on, but we'll find it.

00:33:54.300 We'll link it up.

00:33:54.860 He talks about the fifth, like basically the fifth economy, which is it's, it's knowledge.

00:33:59.500 It's problem solving that is invaluable.

00:34:01.860 And that goes right back to Seth Godin's linchpin, the ability to solve problems and

00:34:06.700 the ability to creatively solve problems will do nothing but open doors for you.

00:34:11.900 So irrespective of what industry you're in, the second that you believe that you have

00:34:16.380 these limitations, which that that's the manifestation of some cost is believing that

00:34:20.860 somehow or another, because you have this much time in an industry, you have this much

00:34:24.160 time in a role, or you've only done this for a job is the thing that commoditizes you.

00:34:30.500 So now you're competing against everybody inside particular salary brackets versus the high

00:34:35.280 performers that we talked to.

00:34:36.660 They're not moving from one job to another for a 10% increase.

00:34:39.780 Sometimes they are doing a 50%, a hundred percent, 200, 300% increase.

00:34:45.400 It's that exponential.

00:34:47.060 Yeah.

00:34:47.360 Yeah.

00:34:47.640 I mean, we had a guy just within our iron council.

00:34:49.600 He just made a message or post the other day.

00:34:51.860 He said he was offered a promotion at work and initially they offered a 5% pay increase,

00:34:57.500 but through his understanding of his own value, he actually turned it down.

00:35:02.360 They came back a couple of days later and said, we'll give you a 45% pay increase for

00:35:07.120 you to take this position.

00:35:08.240 Yeah.

00:35:08.900 Incredible stuff.

00:35:09.860 Well, Hey Kevin, we are scratching the surface here.

00:35:12.540 Obviously we can go on and on and on about this, but for the sake of time, we've got to

00:35:15.780 wind things down, but this has been an enlightening conversation.

00:35:18.520 I want to ask you a couple other questions as we do cap this off.

00:35:21.340 The first one is what does it mean to be a man?

00:35:24.360 I always, my vision is the sheepdog.

00:35:27.160 I mean, that's it.

00:35:28.040 And I know most guys are familiar with that and that is being strong enough to protect

00:35:32.120 the pack, not being timid.

00:35:34.340 That's my mindset.

00:35:35.360 Whether that's your, whether it's your family, it's your business, it's your friends.

00:35:39.120 It's again, the business that you do.

00:35:41.420 I think, I think it extenuates to everything.

00:35:44.020 Yeah.

00:35:44.080 I love it.

00:35:44.480 And obviously something that we, uh, we subscribe to as well.

00:35:47.340 And we've talked about it with a couple of different guys on the podcast as well.

00:35:50.520 So I agree with you.

00:35:51.300 I, I tend to look at it that way as well.

00:35:53.760 Kevin, I appreciate you, man.

00:35:54.560 I appreciate you coming on.

00:35:55.640 Tell us a little bit more about where we can connect with you.

00:35:58.620 And I know you've got an ebook available, maybe even make mention of that.

00:36:01.500 So the guys can check that out if they're interested.

00:36:02.940 Yeah, sure thing.

00:36:04.400 So careerattraction.com.

00:36:06.820 You can also Google my name, Kevin Kermes, K-E-R-M-E-S, but careerattraction.com.

00:36:12.320 You can download our bestselling career upgrade roadmap.

00:36:15.600 This is the step-by-step process that has been validated over more than 14,000 clients

00:36:20.840 that we've worked with and help them find work they love in less than 90 days.

00:36:25.760 80% of the people have found jobs in less than 90 days.

00:36:28.120 So it's not, it's not one of these books that, that stops halfway through and says, oh, by

00:36:32.720 the way, if you write us a check, we'll give you more.

00:36:34.640 Sure.

00:36:34.840 It's, it is, it, it's it.

00:36:36.540 I mean, it, it's everything we, and we talk about this constantly.

00:36:38.840 What, what we charge for is to work with our consultants.

00:36:42.240 We operate like a big four consulting firm working one-on-one with clients in trying to

00:36:47.180 accelerate their job search, be their trusted advisor, accelerate some of the professional

00:36:51.400 outcomes that they're looking to achieve.

00:36:52.980 But we also share the information and the framework openly.

00:36:56.840 If you want to do it self-directed, you know, we just want more people to be successful.

00:37:01.020 Right.

00:37:01.340 Well, I appreciate that.

00:37:02.180 And I appreciate you taking some time to come on the show and talk with us today.

00:37:04.780 We'll link up all that in the show notes.

00:37:06.380 The guys can check that out.

00:37:07.340 Kevin, thank you again for coming.

00:37:08.640 Hey, thank you very much.

00:37:10.100 I appreciate it, man.

00:37:10.980 Thanks.

00:37:13.040 There it is, man.

00:37:13.860 Mr. Kevin Kermis here to talk with us about improving your career, making more money,

00:37:18.280 standing out in a crowded marketplace.

00:37:19.860 If you want to know more about what Kevin is up to, and I highly, highly suggest that you

00:37:23.720 do this, I would tell you to head to order a man.com slash one, one, one as an episode

00:37:30.000 111.

00:37:31.040 You're going to get all the links and everything that you need in the show notes there.

00:37:34.560 Also, if you are ready to take your life to the next level, make sure again, that you

00:37:38.240 join the 270 other dedicated, ambitious, motivated men inside of the iron council.

00:37:43.600 This month, we're talking all about wealth building.

00:37:46.820 So if you want to build more wealth in your life, you want to get out of debt, whatever it

00:37:50.180 may be, you want to start a business.

00:37:51.260 We're going to be talking about all of those things inside of the iron council this month.

00:37:54.400 And I promise we're going to help you take your life to the next level, specifically

00:37:57.620 this month, take your wealth to the next level.

00:38:00.400 Again, you can do that at order of man.com slash iron council guys.

00:38:05.360 I will look forward to talk with you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then

00:38:09.220 take action and become the man you are meant to be.

00:38:13.120 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

00:38:16.000 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:38:19.800 We invite you to join the order and order of man.com.

Order of Man - May 02, 2017

111： Upgrading Your Career ｜ Kevin Kermes

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript