Order of Man - 112： Brett McKay ｜ Six Roles of the Modern Man

00:00:00.140 I have now asked over 100 men what it means to be a man, and I've received over 100 answers.

00:00:05.620 It seems that defining what it means to be a man is a very difficult thing to do, but

00:00:09.640 regardless of what it means to be a man, I think it's safe to say that every man has

00:00:13.680 certain roles he will fulfill throughout his lifetime, and how he executes in each of these

00:00:18.600 roles will define who he is as a man.

00:00:21.440 My guest today, a man that needs no introduction, Brett McKay, joins me to talk about how masculinity

00:00:25.960 has evolved over the past 50 to 100 years, the soft and hard skills every man should become

00:00:31.120 proficient with, where our views of masculinity come from, and how you can master the six roles

00:00:36.400 of the modern man.

00:00:37.440 You're a man of action.

00:00:38.940 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:40.400 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:43.340 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:47.780 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:52.860 This is your life.

00:00:53.920 This is who you are.

00:00:55.040 This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:00.140 you can call yourself a man.

00:01:02.660 Gentlemen, I hope you are doing well today.

00:01:04.540 My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of the podcast that you are

00:01:08.080 listening to right now, The Order of Man.

00:01:10.580 I want to welcome you to the show, whether this is the first time that you're hearing

00:01:14.600 us or you've been around for more than two years.

00:01:16.680 It's actually really hard to believe that we've been going at this for two years now, but

00:01:20.940 either way, we are glad that you're with us.

00:01:22.580 We are with you, because our goal here on the podcast is to bring you the world's most

00:01:27.400 successful men.

00:01:28.680 We extract their hard-fought and hard-learned and hard-earned lessons, and we deliver them

00:01:32.800 straight to you.

00:01:33.740 And today is no exception.

00:01:35.540 But before I do get into the conversation, I'd like to give you a couple of resources

00:01:39.340 that you can follow up on if you want to know a little bit more about what we're up

00:01:43.360 to in The Order of Man.

00:01:44.240 First, if you're looking for the links and the resources that Brett and I mentioned in

00:01:48.320 this show, you can get those at orderofman.com slash 112 as in episode 112.

00:01:53.960 Second, if you have not yet joined the conversation we're having about masculinity over on Facebook

00:01:58.220 with over 28,000 other men now, you can do that at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman.

00:02:05.640 And third, if you're not looking necessarily for a conversation, but the tools and the skills,

00:02:10.080 the accountability, the brotherhood that you're going to need to take your life up a notch,

00:02:14.080 you are going to be interested in our exclusive brotherhood, The Iron Council.

00:02:17.880 I'm going to tell you a little bit more about it during our break, but for now, know that

00:02:20.760 you can get the details at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:02:24.320 Now today, I have the honor of introducing you to, again, the founder of The Art of Manliness,

00:02:29.840 Mr. Brett McKay.

00:02:30.900 I did have him on the show over a year and a half ago, and since then, Brett and I have

00:02:34.640 become friends, and he is a man who I know practices what he preaches.

00:02:39.400 If you don't already know, The Art of Manliness is the world's largest online magazine.

00:02:44.580 It's dedicated to helping men develop the skills needed to succeed as men, and I think it's

00:02:48.720 apparent at this point that Brett's work is a major source of inspiration for my work

00:02:53.660 here with The Order of Man.

00:02:55.460 When I found out that Brett was launching a new book, The Illustrated Art of Manliness,

00:02:59.680 I knew that I immediately needed to connect with him for round two of our discussion.

00:03:06.280 Brett, what's going on, man?

00:03:07.400 Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:03:08.920 Hey, thanks for having me, Ryan.

00:03:10.040 Yeah, I'm excited about it.

00:03:10.900 This is round two.

00:03:12.280 I think, man, we must have done round one.

00:03:14.500 I didn't look.

00:03:15.120 I probably should have looked, but it's probably been about a year.

00:03:17.560 Yeah, it has been.

00:03:18.440 I think it might have been longer than that, too.

00:03:20.180 Time goes so fast.

00:03:21.080 Who knows?

00:03:21.660 Well, I'm excited to have you on.

00:03:22.780 I'm excited, obviously, to talk about masculinity and what it means to be a man.

00:03:25.680 This is a space both of us are hyper-involved with, so anxious to delve into this conversation.

00:03:31.400 I really wanted to start.

00:03:32.420 I had a couple of guys ask me some questions about, because I told them I was going to be talking

00:03:36.060 with you, and they are really curious, and I'm curious as well, about your thoughts as

00:03:40.380 to how masculinity has evolved and how it has changed over the years.

00:03:45.820 That's where I think I want to start the conversation.

00:03:48.560 Yeah, so where are we talking about?

00:03:50.040 What's the starting point we're basing this, our conversation off of?

00:03:53.760 Yeah, that's a really good point, because we can go back thousands of years, or we can

00:03:57.420 go back even a decade.

00:03:58.580 I would say maybe just over the past even 50 to 100 years, how it's evolved and changed,

00:04:03.560 because I certainly think that it's changed at a greater pace even over the past maybe

00:04:07.480 20 or 30 years.

00:04:08.980 You know, 100 years ago, if you were to ask a guy on the street what manliness means, they

00:04:14.540 would give you an answer very similar to what an ancient Greek or an ancient Roman would

00:04:19.420 give you.

00:04:20.340 That idea of manliness is based in the classical idea of manliness.

00:04:24.340 What we're doing on The Art of Manliness is trying to revive this classical idea of manliness.

00:04:28.320 By classical, I mean ancient Greek, ancient Rome.

00:04:30.560 That's what I studied when I was in college.

00:04:32.000 I was a letters major, which is connected to the classic department at the University

00:04:36.760 of Oklahoma.

00:04:37.660 And so I was steeped in these texts, and I thought I was really curious as I was reading

00:04:42.180 the Iliad, or Ovid, or Roman Stoics, that they would often bust out and say, like, he

00:04:49.020 had a manly character, or he showed his manliness.

00:04:52.300 And when you read it, you knew they weren't talking about manliness how we talk about manliness.

00:04:58.460 And when you delve deeper what the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans thought what manliness

00:05:03.020 meant, manliness was, it was a sense of character that you develop through developing certain

00:05:08.900 virtues.

00:05:10.000 And in fact, the Latin word for virtue is virtus, which is manliness for the ancient Romans.

00:05:16.800 And so to develop virtus, you know, the Romans believed you were born a homo, which means

00:05:21.760 man, or male, basically, and you became a weir, which is man, it's V-I-R, and you do 0.95

00:05:28.860 that by developing virtus.

00:05:30.500 And to become a weir, or a veer, if you want to say it that way, you had to become strong

00:05:37.140 physically.

00:05:38.000 You had to develop courage, both martial courage on the battlefield, as well as moral courage,

00:05:45.080 take part in the public arena of political life in Rome.

00:05:48.500 You had to develop prudence, which is basically just being reasonable, using your wisdom to

00:05:54.700 make good decisions.

00:05:56.220 You needed to practice temperance, was having control of your passions, your appetites.

00:06:01.800 And if you did these things, you were considered to be manly.

00:06:06.240 You had manliness.

00:06:07.620 That idea of manliness was with us for most of Western history.

00:06:12.020 You see this throughout the medieval times, the Renaissance, and even up through the 19th

00:06:16.840 century, because everyone at those times, they were steeped in classical literature.

00:06:21.560 So yeah, you can see this in the 18th century.

00:06:24.180 People were writing about George Washington.

00:06:26.440 They talked about the manliness of Washington.

00:06:29.120 And they weren't saying that Washington had an awesome beard and had this filled with bravado

00:06:34.580 and whatever.

00:06:35.800 It meant that he had developed this comportment, this temperament of courage, of prudence, of

00:06:43.940 self-control over his passions and his appetites.

00:06:47.140 That's what they're talking about.

00:06:48.440 We had that up until, I would say, until the 1950s.

00:06:52.200 And then after World War II, you see this idea of manliness disappear.

00:06:56.780 And it's a whole variety of reasons caused that.

00:07:00.700 Just the social changes that happened in the 1960s and the 1970s, sort of our ideas of gender

00:07:06.080 and sex changed.

00:07:08.380 And then also, it's not just that.

00:07:09.940 It's just our overall culture change.

00:07:12.320 We put in more of an emphasis on bravado.

00:07:14.480 We put more of an emphasis on self-assertion.

00:07:17.920 We put more emphasis on doing your own thing and being your own person, following your truth

00:07:23.980 and whatnot.

00:07:24.480 Now, we don't really have an agreed upon idea of manliness.

00:07:28.620 So now you're seeing all sorts of things out there being put out as this is what it

00:07:33.400 means to be manly.

00:07:34.560 So you'll see folks who say, oh, to be manly means, you know, you have lots of guns and

00:07:40.580 you fly in a plane and you just exercise all this bravado.

00:07:43.500 You're big and strong and buff and you have a beard, you have facial hair.

00:07:48.120 Then you have other folks, oh, manliness is softer.

00:07:51.160 We're going to try to create this new guy, this new man, right?

00:07:54.480 And usually it's very, very emotional, very soft, very tepid, almost more feminine. 0.79

00:08:01.080 The big change is that there's so many different conceptions of manliness that it's hard to

00:08:04.940 have an agreed upon idea of manliness, which makes the conversation really confusing.

00:08:09.160 But I would argue that despite that, I think people still resonate with that classical idea

00:08:14.500 of manliness.

00:08:15.440 Whenever they see a man display that, they find it attractive, they find it appealing,

00:08:21.620 and they like it.

00:08:23.500 They want to be around men like that.

00:08:25.440 It's almost as if we inherently understand and know what a man is, although it'd be very

00:08:29.740 difficult for us to articulate what it is.

00:08:31.860 Right.

00:08:32.300 That's the thing.

00:08:32.740 We've lost the vocabulary.

00:08:33.680 And it's not just manliness.

00:08:35.160 I mean, it's just we've lost the whole moral vocabulary in our culture where we recognize

00:08:39.780 when we see goodness, we recognize when we see strength, but we have a hard time articulating

00:08:44.700 it.

00:08:45.380 What do you see as being the biggest problems that men are facing where we have this lack

00:08:50.480 of vocabulary or even understanding of what it even means to be a man?

00:08:54.280 Do you see some common threads between your audience and your listeners?

00:08:57.980 I know I certainly do, but I'd be curious about your thoughts on that.

00:09:00.560 There's men who grew up without dads or who had a dad who wasn't very involved, a father

00:09:06.200 figure, some sort of older male figure that talked to these things, not just talked about

00:09:10.400 it, but lived those things, because I think most people learn through example.

00:09:14.540 So you have a lot of men on my site who read it like they consider the art of manliness

00:09:19.120 for like their second dad or the dad they didn't have.

00:09:21.780 And so they're learning not just skills, but just a mindset, a way to view the world that

00:09:27.240 they didn't pick up, but they wish they had picked up.

00:09:29.300 So that's one thing I've seen.

00:09:32.040 It's provided a missing thing in a lot of people's lives.

00:09:36.040 The problems that men face, crime, juvenile delinquency, drug addiction, things like that,

00:09:42.060 that to me, I mean, it's a complicated, those are all complicated issues that have complicated

00:09:46.180 factors.

00:09:47.060 One factor is mostly men are in jail.

00:09:50.240 Mostly men are having sorts of problems.

00:09:52.340 And I think a part of that is they didn't have any direction.

00:09:55.400 So here's the thing, like on the site, we distinguish between masculinity and manliness.

00:09:59.600 And masculinity, we sort of, this is a very crude dichotomy, but masculinity is sort of

00:10:05.860 this male energy that we have thanks to biology, testosterone.

00:10:09.540 Some guys are more masculine than others, and it's just due to genetics.

00:10:13.020 Nothing you can, you know, there's not too much you can do about it.

00:10:15.560 Without any sort of direction, that masculinity can become destructive.

00:10:20.020 It's sort of like electricity, right?

00:10:21.540 If you don't funnel that electricity or contain it, it can become deadly.

00:10:25.960 Manliness, on the other hand, is that culture that we create to funnel that masculine energy

00:10:30.780 to productive causes or productive things.

00:10:34.240 Without that culture of manhood or manliness, masculinity can be really bad.

00:10:39.720 I mean, that's why you see guys doing terrible things.

00:10:43.140 Sure.

00:10:43.480 And that's probably part of the reason we see even a modern rise in feminism as well, 1.00

00:10:48.980 is I think a lot of the times we look at what traditionally men have done by the way of

00:10:53.640 being evil and violent, like you said, talking about the masculinity versus the manliness is

00:10:58.980 a good distinction.

00:10:59.660 I've never heard it put that way.

00:11:01.120 I mean, that's kind of the way we put it.

00:11:02.960 So if you don't have that direction, you might, as a society, like get hurt.

00:11:06.880 And I think it's interesting, like even, like, it's funny, you even see this in animals.

00:11:11.140 I'm not saying that animals have like a culture.

00:11:13.720 I mean, some anthropologists argue that monkeys might have a culture.

00:11:16.120 But like in elephants, right, this is really interesting in these parks in Africa where

00:11:21.640 there's a lot of poaching of the males for their tusks.

00:11:25.100 So they got these bull elephants just wiped out by poachers.

00:11:28.640 And then these young elephants who came of age without any like older males around them,

00:11:34.800 you know, kind of keeping them in check.

00:11:36.040 They just became like these murderous elephants.

00:11:38.100 Like they would just start charging people, start killing animals like these little bulls.

00:11:42.800 Like Lord of the Flies for elephants.

00:11:44.300 Right.

00:11:44.620 For elephants. 0.99

00:11:45.240 And so they're like these park rangers, like what the crap is going on here? 0.98

00:11:48.660 This is not good. 0.99

00:11:49.960 Well, what they did is they brought in a bunch of older male bulls. 0.99

00:11:54.180 And the whole problem with the juvenile delinquent male elephants stopped because these older

00:12:00.060 males were able to kind of put them in check. 0.98

00:12:02.780 I'm not saying exactly like we're like elephants, but I think it's similar.

00:12:05.760 Like if you don't have that guidance from older males who pass on a certain decorum, kind

00:12:11.920 of keep things in line, then you get in trouble with masculinity. 0.99

00:12:15.820 Right.

00:12:16.040 Yeah, I can definitely see that.

00:12:17.440 And it's obviously been true in my life.

00:12:18.980 You know, I grew up without a permanent father figure in my house.

00:12:21.240 And for a long time, I really floundered with what I should do.

00:12:23.840 And so deliberately and intentionally surrounding myself with other men who are succeeding was

00:12:28.640 critical in my life.

00:12:29.840 So I can certainly see how that would apply.

00:12:31.860 I want to talk with you about this book that you put together, which is The Illustrated

00:12:35.800 Art of Manliness.

00:12:36.660 And I've got a copy here, which I have read through with my son.

00:12:40.100 I want to talk with you about, I don't even know if this is the right term, but maybe some

00:12:44.140 archetypes that you've identified.

00:12:46.620 And I want to break these down because I think it's important that we consider these things

00:12:49.780 in the context of what it is we want to do.

00:12:52.460 Is archetype even the right word or are these just characteristics or skills that we need to

00:12:56.240 develop?

00:12:56.580 What would you say?

00:12:57.060 Yeah, I'd say they're like roles that a man typically takes on in his life.

00:13:02.140 Now, so I want to run through these really quickly so we have some context on what we're

00:13:06.120 talking about.

00:13:06.660 So you've talked about the adventurer, the gentleman, the technician, the warrior, the

00:13:11.780 family man, and the leader.

00:13:13.480 I'm assuming that most men probably gravitate naturally to one over the other, correct?

00:13:20.600 Right, right.

00:13:21.260 There's something in here for everybody.

00:13:23.380 But see, our overall goal with the book is kind of – so just giving some background

00:13:27.700 on The Illustrated Art of Manliness.

00:13:28.800 These are all illustrated guides.

00:13:30.200 We started this whole series on the site about in 2010 where we took different skills and

00:13:35.580 then we broke them down in these sort of – these vintage-inspired from Popular Mechanics

00:13:39.760 illustrations.

00:13:40.940 They're done by Ted Slampiak.

00:13:42.100 He's a really talented illustrator.

00:13:44.120 And so, yeah, I mean we have everything from how to start a fire with no matches to how to

00:13:50.480 dress well to how to be an effective leader or how to be a good dad.

00:13:54.800 Some men, they're going to gravitate to one section or the other.

00:13:57.260 Other men, they're going to find that they're attracted to the whole thing.

00:14:00.680 But what we're trying to – overall, we tried to get a good balance in the book of both

00:14:04.880 hard and soft skills and trying to really encapsulate this idea of savoir faire or faire.

00:14:12.120 It's a French word.

00:14:12.960 It just means to like – sort of like James Bond, like this guy that can handle himself

00:14:17.440 in whatever situation he finds himself because he has the skills to do that.

00:14:22.140 So whether he's out in the woods or he's with a bunch of political dignitaries and

00:14:27.860 like that, he can handle himself effectively and competently.

00:14:31.420 So we're trying to create this sort of well-rounded man.

00:14:34.640 When you talk about being a well-rounded man, I know it's difficult because you're

00:14:38.040 busy, I'm busy.

00:14:38.680 Everybody listening to the show is busy and we have so many things that we've got going

00:14:41.420 on.

00:14:41.700 How do you strike the balance or find where you should be putting your energy into one

00:14:45.080 of these roles that you're talking about?

00:14:47.200 I think it's – I'm a big believer in not trying to do everything at once because

00:14:50.340 you can't do everything at once because if you do, you do everything at once poorly.

00:14:53.840 Right, right.

00:14:54.440 So like you're going to have different seasons in your life.

00:14:56.600 We're going to be able to focus on different things.

00:14:58.440 When you're young and single, you're going to have more time to spend on things that

00:15:03.000 interest you and really develop those skills that – from a wide variety of spectrums.

00:15:08.540 Spectrum, I mean.

00:15:09.580 And as you get older and you take on more responsibilities, you're going to have less time.

00:15:12.860 But within those responsibilities that you take on, you're probably going to develop

00:15:17.460 skills.

00:15:18.200 So when you become married, you're going to have to learn how to develop some interpersonal

00:15:22.560 skills you might not have had before.

00:15:24.520 When you have kids, you're going to have to learn how to be a dad, develop your patience,

00:15:29.040 develop the sort of attributes.

00:15:30.480 And those things carry over to other aspects of your life.

00:15:32.600 I feel like a lot of men in particular downplay the carryover from family life to their work

00:15:37.840 life or the other parts of their life.

00:15:39.300 Those skills, those virtues you develop within the home, that can carry over to your business

00:15:45.120 life.

00:15:45.760 You learn how to be more patient with others.

00:15:47.860 You learn how to manage conflict.

00:15:50.560 And that can carry over to the work life.

00:15:52.700 And then once your kids get older, you probably know this, they become less dependent on you.

00:15:57.260 So time frees up.

00:15:58.480 And so you're able to devote yourself to things.

00:16:00.180 And your career is going to change.

00:16:01.360 Some parts of your career are going to be super intense.

00:16:03.120 You're not going to have a lot of time.

00:16:04.320 You have to put that on the back burner.

00:16:05.380 But then time frees up and then you can devote yourself a little bit and then time starts

00:16:09.620 speeding up again.

00:16:10.520 You got to put things on the back burner.

00:16:12.000 So I'm just a big believer in rolling with the different seasons of your life and just

00:16:16.460 being flexible.

00:16:17.620 Yeah.

00:16:17.680 And I think the other thing, too, is outside of just seasons, the priorities change.

00:16:21.060 You know, if I were to look at my younger life, adventure would have been important to

00:16:24.740 me, wanting to travel and do all the things I could have done without having children.

00:16:27.620 But I look at it now and my one year old, almost one, just took his first steps yesterday.

00:16:32.840 And to me, that there's an excitement in that as well.

00:16:35.860 And so the priority has completely shifted.

00:16:38.380 But I do agree with you.

00:16:39.520 If you're good at one, you're naturally going to improve the other.

00:16:44.320 Let's talk about each one of these really quick.

00:16:46.160 Let's talk about adventure.

00:16:47.620 When you talk about adventure, I think this is an area of life that a lot of men are missing,

00:16:52.880 especially because they are so busy with other things.

00:16:55.200 What do you mean and what are you talking about when you're talking about being an adventurer?

00:16:58.320 In this, we're being very explicit in our way of using adventure.

00:17:03.180 Like we're talking Indiana Jones going off and doing crazy things out in the wild.

00:17:08.540 When you find yourself in precarious situations, you're able to MacGyver yourself out of it.

00:17:14.260 But I think adventure is vital to a man because I think men are inherently drawn to adventure.

00:17:19.360 Adventure entails an element of risk.

00:17:21.880 And like you can't have manliness without risk.

00:17:25.080 And I think adventure is a chance for men to prove themselves.

00:17:28.640 Like they put themselves in a situation where they're not – they don't fully know what's going on.

00:17:32.620 And so they have to rely on their wits.

00:17:34.180 They have to rely on their brawn to get them through it.

00:17:36.720 So it's a test basically.

00:17:38.620 A ritual.

00:17:39.100 I think we talked about rituals last time that you were on the show, in fact, if I remember correctly.

00:17:43.240 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:43.840 Coming of age ritual.

00:17:45.020 I mean that's what it's all about.

00:17:46.200 It's – you put yourself in this test to see how – see if you have the medal to pass it.

00:17:50.340 We tied this section to that poem If by Roger Kipling.

00:17:53.800 Yeah.

00:17:53.980 Like adventure is all – it's just one big if.

00:17:56.960 Like you don't know what's going to happen.

00:17:59.000 But you can still lose and still show yourself a man, right? 0.76

00:18:02.640 Because like as long as you play the game right, you play the game with bravery, with a good face, and you give it your all.

00:18:09.380 Like you've won the game.

00:18:11.320 And that's what that poem is all about.

00:18:12.760 And I think that's kind of the approach that men should take with adventure.

00:18:16.920 Don't expect to win all the time.

00:18:18.820 But just play the game right and you'll be okay.

00:18:20.860 You know what I found too with this adventure component is just trying new things.

00:18:25.260 Like I know there's a lot of guys out there who for whatever reason aren't willing to try something new.

00:18:29.840 And I found that just by saying yes to a few things that normally I wouldn't say yes to has really opened my eyes to some new adventures and new activities that I wouldn't have known otherwise.

00:18:41.120 We're a big proponent on the side of micro-adventures.

00:18:44.620 It's this idea – a lot of people guys think, oh, if I'm going to go on an adventure, I've got to like buy all this equipment and travel to the Himalayas or whatever.

00:18:50.700 You don't have to do that.

00:18:51.660 There is adventure in your backyard if you look for it.

00:18:54.180 And so one thing we do in our family is during the spring, summer times when the weather's night, we make it a goal to go on at least one micro-adventure a weekend.

00:19:02.680 So we'll just pick out some place in Oklahoma that we haven't visited and we'll go take a day trip and go do that.

00:19:08.720 And it can be as simple as taking a hike in a nature preserve you've never been to.

00:19:13.640 One time we went down to the Illinois River here in Oklahoma and we went rafting.

00:19:17.600 I bought a raft on Amazon, flated it, and we just like floated down the Illinois River and that was cool.

00:19:22.780 And it could be as simple as one time we went and saw this roadside – Route 66 roadside attraction near here.

00:19:28.480 It's this giant blue whale in Katusa, Oklahoma.

00:19:30.940 And that was our micro-adventure. It was cool.

00:19:33.480 I'm hoping people will not think they have to go on these big grandiose adventures.

00:19:37.120 You can find adventure in your own backyard if you're creative and resourceful.

00:19:40.620 Yeah, definitely.

00:19:43.340 Gentlemen, let me just take a quick pause to tell you about our mastermind, The Iron Council.

00:19:47.220 When you join with us, you're going to be joining an exclusive brotherhood of men who are doing the work required to excel in their families and their businesses, their communities, every area of life.

00:19:57.620 So each month we focus on a very specific topic and delve deep, deep into that topic.

00:20:02.660 We create the framework for the discussion.

00:20:04.520 And more importantly, we help you with the action that you're going to need to take to reach new heights in your life.

00:20:09.540 We're going to give you the tools, the skills, the guidance, the direction, the focus that you need to make more money, connect with your wife and your children, launch that business, lose a spare tire, just about any other goal that you might have in your life right now.

00:20:21.980 So if you are interested in learning more about The Iron Council and claiming your seat at the table, you can do that at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:20:31.060 Again, that's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:20:34.460 Now let me get back to my conversation with Brett.

00:20:38.140 Well, let's flip the script a little bit and let's talk about the other side of this, which is being a gentleman.

00:20:42.800 And, you know, you talk about James Bond, Indiana Jones, which certainly displayed both characteristics of gentleman and adventure.

00:20:49.380 Talk to me about what you mean when you say gentleman and how we might be able to improve our ability to be gentleman.

00:20:55.780 I think the word gentleman, thanks to the internet in the recent years, has kind of gotten watered down.

00:21:00.680 We've lost them.

00:21:01.320 A lot of times we just associate being a gentleman as you wear nice clothes and that's it.

00:21:05.180 Our definition of gentleman that we push on the site and in this book is ancient.

00:21:09.560 We kind of do this cultural mishmash of the concept of gentleman.

00:21:13.340 So the ancient Greeks had this concept of gentleman.

00:21:15.840 It's called the kalos kagoth or something like that.

00:21:19.100 In order to gain that status, you had to be able to, you know, you had to be well-dressed.

00:21:23.200 You had to be able to take part in culture discussion, exhibit these sort of virtues of even temper, prudence, things like that, but also have physical strength.

00:21:30.340 You had to be strong and be able to do well in combat or in the athletic games.

00:21:35.200 So it's all about personal excellence, right?

00:21:36.920 But then the ancient Chinese had this idea, this Confucian idea of gentleman, and he described it as being a gentleman as a being who wishes to be established himself, who's done the well himself, made himself the best, seeks also to establish others.

00:21:52.040 Wishing to be enlarged himself, he seeks also to enlarge others.

00:21:55.260 So our idea of gentleman is like you seek to improve yourself, you dress well, you do these things not just for you, but to uplift others, right?

00:22:05.260 You practice good etiquette, you practice, you know how to dress, not so much for yourself, but it's just like to make the experience better for others and like make them feel comfortable and uplifted when they're around you.

00:22:17.540 So that's the idea of gentleman that we're trying to hit with this book.

00:22:20.620 Yeah, I mean, it's so valuable because I think there's a trend even society that says it's all about me, right?

00:22:26.400 Me, me, me.

00:22:27.220 Don't worry about what anybody else says.

00:22:28.760 I've got to take care of me first.

00:22:30.080 And while I certainly believe that there's elements of validity to that, there's also this side that we as men are here to serve others.

00:22:37.140 And if we aren't helping in some capacity, whether that's our family or coworkers or people in our community, quite honestly, what good is having us around?

00:22:44.160 So there's a great anthropologist, David Gilmour, wrote a book called Manhood in the Making.

00:22:49.660 And one attribute he found, he did a sort of cross-culture analysis of what manliness meant in different cultures.

00:22:55.900 And he found some common elements.

00:22:57.520 That's where the whole protect, provide, procreate thing came from.

00:23:00.920 But he also found one of the defining concepts was a man is useful.

00:23:05.560 Like that's the thing that separates the men from the boys.

00:23:07.740 Boys are consumers. 0.54

00:23:09.760 They just take from the communal pot, right?

00:23:12.340 Men actually contribute to the communal pot. 0.91

00:23:15.680 Like they actually bring something to the table.

00:23:18.820 So for me, yeah, manliness goes hand in hand with service.

00:23:24.180 And whether that's in your community or in your family, it's bringing more to the table than what you take.

00:23:29.520 Yeah, I love it.

00:23:30.040 I love it.

00:23:30.460 And that actually leads into the next component which you talk about, which is technician.

00:23:34.200 Because now you're talking about service.

00:23:35.600 You're talking about doing things.

00:23:36.520 But I think there's this component of mastery when it comes to being a man as well.

00:23:40.440 And I know I've talked personally with a lot of guys who feel like even, for example, they can't fix things around the house.

00:23:45.940 And they actually feel less masculine because of that.

00:23:48.480 Talk to me about being a technician.

00:23:50.340 Technician is sort of this catch-all term we came for for just being a handyman.

00:23:53.780 The skills we had in there went beyond being a handyman.

00:23:56.740 So we had to come with some other, some broader woman technician. 1.00

00:23:59.900 But yeah, I mean another defining characteristic of manliness that this David Gilmore found was that men need to be competent.

00:24:05.880 Like they need to be competent in the skills that make them useful in their society.

00:24:10.960 In our Western democracy, the skills that – or technological democracy, like the skills of competence involve things like how to fix a car or how to fix things around your house, how to handle tools.

00:24:24.620 And like, yeah, I mean even if you're a guy, you don't need to do those things, right?

00:24:29.400 You can pay someone else to do that.

00:24:31.080 Hire that stuff out, yeah.

00:24:31.600 Hire that stuff out because it's efficient, right?

00:24:33.400 You still feel like, boy, I feel less manly because I don't know how to – because I've had that happen in my own life.

00:24:39.320 I'll have this problem in my house.

00:24:40.780 I'll try to fix it myself.

00:24:42.520 I'll spend like four hours and make six trips to Home Depot.

00:24:46.500 Make it way worse than it ever was to begin with.

00:24:48.820 Right.

00:24:49.160 Spending tons of money.

00:24:50.320 I could have had this thing fixed in half an hour and for less amount of money.

00:24:53.960 And then I had the guy come in here and he does it.

00:24:55.600 I'm like – and he fixes it in 30 minutes. 0.98

00:24:57.360 You're like, boy, I am just this incompetent boob.

00:24:59.800 So, yeah, I mean I think there's a desire in all guys to know how to do those things, to be effective in the world, to not just be passively engaged with the technology that surrounds them or their environment, but having the power to actually do something.

00:25:15.000 I mean it feels good.

00:25:15.900 I mean even if it's more cost-efficient to hire somebody to do it, like it just feels good to do this stuff by hand.

00:25:23.980 Like it feels good to build things yourself.

00:25:26.300 Even if it's like crap, you just enjoy the process because there's something very visceral about working with your hands.

00:25:33.200 There's something very visceral about seeing this problem that you had in your house and you spend an hour or two on it and you fix it and you can say like, man, I did that. 0.97

00:25:41.700 Like that was me.

00:25:42.580 There's something powerful that comes from that feeling.

00:25:44.640 So, I think, yeah, every guy should look for those opportunities because it can really – it just feels good.

00:25:50.100 I mean there's no other reason.

00:25:51.160 I mean for me, there's no utilitarian reason for me to like do this stuff on my own.

00:25:56.120 But the reason for me is like it just feels good to know I can do those things.

00:25:59.340 You know, in addition to that, one of the things that I found is I do projects and engage in activities that I have no business participating in.

00:26:05.320 And I found that it exercises a different part of my brain which causes me to think differently about maybe business or the way that I approach my workouts or the way that I might have a conversation with my son.

00:26:16.640 And so, there's definitely that added value of creating new patterns or thoughts in your mind that has been helpful for me.

00:26:23.500 Yeah.

00:26:23.700 A lot of the stuff too.

00:26:24.360 The reason why it does that, it's mindless, right?

00:26:26.680 Like hammering a nail is like super mindless once you know how to do it pretty well.

00:26:31.640 And so, you kind of get – you kind of let your mind wander and drift while you're still doing this task so you can start thinking about other things that you otherwise wouldn't think about because you're engaged – you direct your attention to other things.

00:26:43.700 But like these sort of manual activities can often let your brain wander so you can think about those sorts of things.

00:26:49.080 Yeah.

00:26:49.320 Yeah, it makes sense.

00:26:50.120 Let's talk about warrior.

00:26:51.420 Now, this one is – tends to be kind of a hot topic from my perspective.

00:26:56.060 Even the word warrior and I get a lot of pushback, not usually from men, that say warriors are not important or not everything is a battle.

00:27:05.100 And I think this is that kind of quintessential man that we look at and maybe have some negative connotation or perception.

00:27:10.220 When you talk about warrior, what do you mean?

00:27:12.200 I'm talking about like in the – what we mean by warrior, a man who can fight and defend himself and his family.

00:27:18.600 Men are wired to fight.

00:27:21.300 Men are stronger than females for a reason and that is to fight. 1.00

00:27:25.160 I mean that's – I've had lots of guests on my show that have talked about the biology of male aggression and the physiology of most men.

00:27:33.720 And again, like I'm saying, this is like – this is – we're speaking in generalities.

00:27:37.200 There's some men who just aren't –

00:27:38.580 Of course.

00:27:39.020 And there's some women who are just like – they're freaking jacked and they're just assertive and aggressive and they do awesome. 1.00

00:27:44.800 But generally men are the fighting sex. 0.82

00:27:47.700 But this warrior thing, we're trying to go beyond just like fighting.

00:27:51.220 But it's just about harnessing that warrior spirit in what you do, working on your body, building your body up, becoming strong.

00:27:58.020 Because I think that process of developing your strength, developing that sort of aggressive – by aggressive, I mean not – I don't mean like violent necessarily.

00:28:06.820 But I mean that just approach to life.

00:28:10.260 That balance between masculinity and manliness that you're talking about.

00:28:12.560 Right.

00:28:13.020 It carries over to other aspects of your life.

00:28:15.220 Look, I barbell train.

00:28:16.880 It's my hobby that I do.

00:28:18.980 And it's been fun.

00:28:20.020 It's been enjoyable to get stronger physically.

00:28:22.540 But it's carried over to other aspects of my life.

00:28:25.480 It's taught me how to be patient.

00:28:27.960 There's some – I'll go months without hitting the PR and it's frustrating.

00:28:32.000 But I have to just keep doing the work and understanding that my – it's going to take time for my body to adapt and get stronger.

00:28:39.060 Whenever I've taken a firearms course or a self-defense course, it causes me to think about life differently, approach life differently with a little more assertiveness than I otherwise would have maybe.

00:28:51.480 So yeah, that's what we're trying to get with it.

00:28:52.500 And again, we also have just very practical things in this book, just like what to do in an active shooter situation, how to defend yourself from a knife attack, which, man, I've talked – when I was researching this book, I talked to tons of experts.

00:29:04.180 And they all agreed that the knife attack is the worst thing you can find yourself in.

00:29:08.160 Really?

00:29:08.600 By far.

00:29:09.300 What's the reasoning for that?

00:29:09.980 Just because it's so intimate and you're going to get hurt even if you come out alive?

00:29:14.320 Right.

00:29:14.600 Like a gun – like a gun only fires at what it's pointing at.

00:29:17.680 Right.

00:29:18.160 And so if it's – I mean there's not a lot of room for error with a firearm.

00:29:21.440 So you can run away, do some zigzagging.

00:29:24.040 What if the guy has got a gun on you and he might miss?

00:29:26.380 But with a knife, like the guy can just slash at you and just –

00:29:29.160 Yeah, swing wildly. 0.93

00:29:30.560 You're going to get hit.

00:29:31.720 And like when you get hit by a knife, it is ugly.

00:29:34.660 If you want to see what a knife can do, just Google knife attack wounds and prepare yourself.

00:29:40.620 Yeah, it's brutal.

00:29:41.160 It's brutal.

00:29:41.660 So yeah, basically the big – the number one rule if you get – approach the knife is just run away.

00:29:46.800 Had Tim Kennedy tell me that.

00:29:48.280 Just run.

00:29:49.260 Yeah, one of the baddest men on the planet telling you to run away.

00:29:52.360 Right, right.

00:29:53.320 Interesting.

00:29:53.860 I know.

00:29:54.140 In fact, I think in the book it talked about – what was it?

00:29:57.260 Run, hide, engage or – I might not be using the correct terminology.

00:30:01.840 Yeah, that's sort of what to do in active shooter.

00:30:03.140 It's sort of – it's become pretty common advice now.

00:30:06.220 I mean this is what the FBI recommends and Homeland Security is.

00:30:09.800 Yeah, run is your first option if you get away.

00:30:12.040 Hide is another one.

00:30:13.260 And then as a last resort, fight.

00:30:14.740 And then when you fight, just use extreme violence on the person.

00:30:18.580 Yeah, interesting.

00:30:20.220 Well, okay.

00:30:20.640 So now we're going to shift gears again.

00:30:22.000 We're all over the place.

00:30:22.820 But I think it's important we cover these roles and that is that of a family man.

00:30:27.020 And I said we switch roles – switch, but maybe not.

00:30:29.760 I mean it's important to be all these things if we're going to be an effective family man, correct?

00:30:33.820 Right, right.

00:30:34.480 You know, you got to be competent in your house, be able to take care of your house.

00:30:37.880 So you got to be a technician.

00:30:39.080 You want to be a gentleman.

00:30:40.100 I mean if you want to have a family, you have to woo a lady. 1.00

00:30:42.900 And in order to do that, you have to have a bit of refined gentleman in you.

00:30:46.680 And if – you know, adventure that you're going to pass on adventure to your kids.

00:30:49.940 So yeah, the family man, this is not just being married, not just being a dad.

00:30:52.700 We talk a lot about that.

00:30:53.480 But it's also being a good uncle.

00:30:55.360 We talk about that.

00:30:56.380 A lot of guys, they downplay the importance of the role of an uncle in a child's life.

00:31:01.240 But they're really important.

00:31:02.100 They've actually done studies on this.

00:31:03.360 I mean uncles are adult figures who are family.

00:31:06.900 But they're not like parents where – or grandparents where there's this sort of power thing going on.

00:31:12.860 Right.

00:31:13.140 They can have the fun part of it, right?

00:31:14.880 Exactly.

00:31:15.300 They can have – like uncles are there to like show the stuff that kids are supposed to learn that their parents aren't going to teach them.

00:31:21.900 And when their parents aren't there, right?

00:31:23.800 Right.

00:31:24.260 Exactly.

00:31:24.720 I think you did an article that I really liked or maybe it was a video series about some cool tricks that uncles can show.

00:31:31.400 Yeah, we've done a lot of like illustrated guides on the cool uncle tricks and we have some of those in here.

00:31:35.980 It's like – so it's like the goofy stuff like how to float, how to bounce a roll, how to blow – make a whistle from grass.

00:31:42.220 I mean it's just like the cool stuff that kids are supposed to learn.

00:31:44.820 Yeah.

00:31:45.160 But I don't – I mean I don't know if that stuff – like I remember I picked up a lot of that stuff just on the playground in school.

00:31:50.260 But I don't think that stuff is getting passed around much anymore.

00:31:52.880 So we're relying on uncles.

00:31:55.220 If you're an uncle, you have the sacred responsibility of teaching your nieces and nephews how to blow stuff up with fireworks.

00:32:01.260 And things like that.

00:32:02.200 I love it.

00:32:02.560 And you know my oldest son just had his birthday.

00:32:05.160 He just turned nine years old and we went over to my in-law's house and his uncle, my wife's brother was there and gave him his present and it was a little airsoft pistol.

00:32:14.580 I'm like of course that's what he would get him, which I don't have a problem with that but that's his role, right?

00:32:18.480 That's right.

00:32:18.980 That's what they're there for.

00:32:20.300 Yeah.

00:32:20.960 Cool.

00:32:21.260 And then the last one is leader, being a leader and leadership.

00:32:24.600 Talk to me about maybe some things that we ought to consider as we want to lead more effectively whether that's at home or in the community or at work.

00:32:32.540 Leadership, we're all going to have a role as a leader whether it's in our family or at work or even at school.

00:32:38.820 You might have – take on the responsibility of a leader.

00:32:41.660 So we talk about how to develop charisma.

00:32:45.460 A lot of people think charisma, that sort of thing is very superficial.

00:32:47.920 That's how you gain trust and influence with people so they'll actually follow you.

00:32:52.180 And so charisma is just all about making other people feel comfortable.

00:32:55.620 It's not about looking awesome and making yourself look really cool or if you want to hang out with you.

00:33:00.060 You just make other people feel comfortable around you.

00:33:02.180 That's the key to charisma.

00:33:03.840 We also talk about just planning and organizing.

00:33:06.700 We put in the Eisenhower decision matrix in there.

00:33:09.360 Yeah.

00:33:09.740 Learning how to decide what between urgent and important and focusing what's on important.

00:33:14.080 And there's just a lot of like office etiquette things in here that you might have to use when you're in the office.

00:33:19.060 So like how to plan a meeting that doesn't bore people and is actually effective, how to make business pitches, which you'll have to do not even just in work but in life.

00:33:28.960 You're on the PTA or you're in church.

00:33:31.020 You're going to have to make pitches to people and somehow persuade them that your idea is a good idea.

00:33:35.740 So those are vital skills to have.

00:33:37.220 So that's what we focus on in that leadership section.

00:33:39.940 I love it, man.

00:33:40.480 I love it.

00:33:40.900 This is all powerful stuff.

00:33:42.060 And obviously, you and I could go on probably all day about this, I'm sure, and we're only just touching what actually could be addressed here.

00:33:49.960 But I really appreciate you talking about this stuff.

00:33:51.940 You know, there's one question I was thinking about before we hit record on this podcast.

00:33:55.720 And I usually prep all of my guests with the question I ask, what does it mean to be a man?

00:34:00.100 But I think you've kind of answered that for the last 35 minutes.

00:34:03.280 So you might be the only guy who I do not ask that question specifically.

00:34:06.960 Sweet.

00:34:07.360 Glad I got out of that one.

00:34:08.680 Yeah, I'm going to let you off the hook on that.

00:34:10.020 You're probably the man that I've had on the show that's most qualified to answer that question, though.

00:34:15.280 Well, I appreciate that.

00:34:16.380 I mean, I'm by no means an expert on this.

00:34:18.560 I'm figuring – I mean, that's why I started the site of big reasons to figure this stuff out for myself.

00:34:23.200 But I'm happy – it's just what I'm doing is I'm sharing what I'm learning along the way.

00:34:27.600 It's been nice to see that other folks have gotten something out of it as well.

00:34:31.020 What do you think the draw is for – obviously, this has really just exploded for you.

00:34:36.440 I've been amazed at the growth that we've experienced over the past couple of years.

00:34:40.100 What is the draw for men to really latch on to this and why now?

00:34:44.840 Basically, there's a void.

00:34:46.020 The reason I started The Art of Manliness is because I was tired of the content being put out there for men. 0.72

00:34:52.400 It just seemed very vapid, very superficial.

00:34:55.220 I think men are craving more.

00:34:57.700 They're craving something with substance.

00:34:59.040 They want to know how to live a good life and they want – you can find this sort of insight from any person despite their sex.

00:35:07.940 But I think men are looking for something that has a – not all men but I think a lot of them are looking for something that has a masculine twinge to it, something they can relate to.

00:35:16.700 And so that's what we're trying to do in The Art of Manliness is putting our idea of what we think means to be a good man, a strong man.

00:35:24.760 And other guys have found that, yeah, they like that.

00:35:27.660 They found that they were missing that in their life.

00:35:30.080 Yeah.

00:35:30.560 Well, I know it's certainly been valuable for me.

00:35:33.260 Brett, how do we connect with you if somebody may not know how to do that or how do we pick up the Illustrated Art of Manliness or anything else you might want to mention right now?

00:35:42.600 Sure.

00:35:42.880 No, the Illustrated Art of Manliness is on sale at Amazon or wherever internet is sold.

00:35:47.240 We can go to artofmanliness.com.

00:35:49.380 You can see all our content there.

00:35:50.820 We've got over 3,000 articles on the site that we've published over the past nine years.

00:35:54.880 I don't really do too much on Twitter.

00:35:56.400 I'll just share my content there.

00:35:57.940 I do a lot of Instagram.

00:35:58.780 I enjoy that, at Art of Manliness on Instagram.

00:36:02.400 We're developing a new project called The Strenuous Life, which is a platform where basically we're trying to help guys put into action the things they read about on The Art of Manliness.

00:36:10.520 So you can check that out at strenuouslife.co.

00:36:15.320 Right on, Brett.

00:36:16.160 Well, I appreciate you.

00:36:17.180 I know I told you this last time, and we've obviously communicated between then and now.

00:36:21.520 I just got to let you know I appreciate you.

00:36:23.000 I appreciate you starting this project.

00:36:24.460 Well, you started in, what, 2008?

00:36:26.060 Is that right?

00:36:26.740 Yeah, 2008, January 2008.

00:36:28.220 Yeah, so coming up on almost 10 years now, and man, you have done an amazing job.

00:36:32.480 You've been obviously very influential in my life and in the project I've started here, and I know you're impacting millions of men across the planet.

00:36:39.540 So I just want to let you know I appreciate you and acknowledge you for all your hard work and what you've done.

00:36:44.100 I appreciate that, Brett.

00:36:45.100 Hey, thanks, Ryan.

00:36:45.640 I appreciate it.

00:36:46.240 There it is, man, my conversation with Brett McKay about the six roles each of us play at some level, at some capacity.

00:36:54.420 I would encourage you to follow Brett's work.

00:36:56.320 I'd encourage you to pick up a copy of his book, The Illustrated Art of Manliness, and I would encourage you to implement the skills Brett covers.

00:37:02.300 You can get the links from this interview and the link to the book at orderofman.com slash 112, but in the meantime, if you are a high-achieving man or, at a minimum, you are ambitious, you're motivated, you're ready to go.

00:37:15.680 You can join our exclusive mastermind, The Iron Council.

00:37:18.440 Again, we've got the tools and the questions, the answers, the resources, the guidance that you're going to need to take your life to the next level.

00:37:24.380 And most importantly, we've got some accountability structures in place that are going to help you ensure to stick to what you talk about sticking to.

00:37:32.900 So you can see what we're all about and join us at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:37:37.400 I will look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes, but until then, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

00:37:45.180 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:37:48.200 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

00:37:51.880 we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - May 09, 2017

112： Brett McKay ｜ Six Roles of the Modern Man

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