Order of Man - 115： Keeping the Fire Alive ｜ Sarah Jones

00:00:00.000 Let's face it, relationships tend to lose their luster after a while, but that doesn't necessarily

00:00:04.360 mean that has to be the case. In fact, most relationships and marriages can keep the spark 0.96

00:00:08.900 alive for a lifetime, as my guest today points out. Sarah Jones is backed by popular demand 0.97

00:00:14.080 to teach us how to rekindle that spark, keep things fresh, add variety into the relationship,

00:00:19.340 how do you encourage your partner to try new things, and how to keep the fire alive.

00:00:24.040 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:28.700 charts your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:34.400 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is

00:00:41.040 who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:00:46.760 you can call yourself a man. Guys, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,

00:00:51.660 and I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast. Each and every week,

00:00:55.740 we are interviewing the world's most successful men. We're extracting their hard-fought and hard-earned

00:01:00.200 lessons and packaging them up for you to implement in your life. This is where I typically would say

00:01:05.720 that this week is no exception, except for this week is an exception. I am interviewing a woman.

00:01:11.300 In fact, the woman I am interviewing today is the only woman I've interviewed on this show.

00:01:15.500 Her name is Sarah Jones, and I actually had her on the show about a year ago, but she is back again

00:01:20.240 by popular demand. But before I do get into that conversation, I do want to give you a couple of

00:01:25.380 quick resources. First, if you are looking for the links and the resources mentioned in this show,

00:01:31.060 you can get those at orderofman.com slash 114. And second, if you have not joined in the conversation

00:01:37.400 we're having about masculinity over on Facebook with roughly 30,000 men now, you can do that at

00:01:44.080 facebook.com slash groups slash order of man. And third, we are going to be hosting our first

00:01:50.460 ever order of man meetup in Kansas city on August 12th. We do not have a lot of spots for this. In

00:01:57.120 fact, I think we're about 20% full as of right now, the recording and release of this interview,

00:02:02.640 this podcast, and I haven't really talked much about it up to this point. So we are going to fill

00:02:06.780 up quick. We're going to be hosting a live podcast with the one and only Steven Mansfield. He's the

00:02:11.800 author of building your band of brothers and Mansfield book of manly men. We've had him on

00:02:16.180 the show twice. I'm going to be there. Steven's going to be there. There are going to be some

00:02:19.680 self-defense options, some shooting options available. Some other guest speakers are going

00:02:23.600 to be there. It's going to be a great day. So again, that's on August 12th in Kansas city.

00:02:28.300 If you are interested, you can get your ticket at orderofman.com slash event. Do a quick because

00:02:34.200 we are going to fill out again. That's orderofman.com slash event. Now with that said, let me

00:02:38.920 introduce you to my guest today. Her name again is Sarah Jones, and she is the founder of introverted

00:02:43.760 alpha. I had such a positive response when she joined us last time, which again was about a year

00:02:48.460 ago. You can find that show at orderofman.com slash zero five nine. And I received quite a few

00:02:55.720 requests to get her back on the show. So when she reached out to me with some ideas that she wanted

00:02:59.760 to share with you, I knew this was a no brainer to have her back on to talk about men and women,

00:03:04.980 how we interact, why things get stagnant in relationships and how to keep that from happening.

00:03:11.220 So I hope you enjoy. I know that you will. Sarah, how are you? Thanks for joining me on the

00:03:16.840 show again. Thanks so much, Ryan. I'm really excited. Happy to be here. This is round number

00:03:21.460 two. So, you know, I didn't tell you, you were the first woman to come on our show and you are

00:03:25.740 the first woman to be the second woman on our show. Keeping in first place. I like it. I like it. 0.99

00:03:32.660 And I have nothing wrong with bringing a woman on the show. There's nothing wrong with that at all,

00:03:36.340 but it's got to be the right person. And you are the right person based on our previous

00:03:40.580 conversation. I'm really looking forward to having our follow-up conversation.

00:03:44.200 Thank you so much. That means a lot because I really love what you do. And every guy that I've

00:03:48.580 that has found me through you, Ryan, is just a super A plus plus guy.

00:03:52.940 Good. That's what I like to hear. We attract the best. It sounds like.

00:03:56.560 Yeah, definitely.

00:03:57.460 Good. The conversation I wanted to have with you today is about relationships. Obviously,

00:04:01.680 that's your area of expertise. But I think we want to talk about, I know, for example,

00:04:06.860 just maybe to give you a backstory, I've been married for, it'll be 13 years this year. And

00:04:11.600 I know a lot of guys who are in relationships that for whatever reason have become stagnant

00:04:18.300 or boring, maybe even a little bit and complacent. And I really want to talk about that today.

00:04:25.220 Why is that the case? Why is it that we become so complacent in our relationships?

00:04:29.720 Mm-hmm. Great question. And yeah, great realization too. It's so interesting, right? Because

00:04:34.840 you know, when we first start dating someone, it's like everything's new and exciting. And we just

00:04:38.820 imagine it's always going to stay that way. But I was actually at a conference last month with

00:04:43.720 Esther Perel, who is just a genius on what those dynamics in relationship and how come they do become

00:04:51.820 complacent. And the way she explains it, and this really resonated with me, is that there are two

00:04:58.040 strong human drives regarding relationship. One is adventure and spontaneity and sexiness and

00:05:06.440 adventure. And then the other one is safety and security and stability. And it's only recently,

00:05:13.360 as she explains, in the past 150 years, I forget the exact number, but very recent that we've wanted

00:05:19.200 both from the same relationship.

00:05:21.360 Interesting. Okay.

00:05:22.320 Because before marriage, well, first of all, there's other places and cultures that don't 0.98

00:05:26.880 even have monogamous marriage. For a long time in the West, we have, but for a long time,

00:05:31.560 it was about politics and stability for a family. It was an economical decision.

00:05:35.880 Sure.

00:05:36.100 So only recently are we like wanting to be in love with our best friend and wanting to have

00:05:40.820 the stability and also all of that fire and passion with the same person. It is something new

00:05:46.720 that we even want. And of course, it's challenging. If you look at having these two very different

00:05:51.700 desires from the same relationship, it is challenging.

00:05:56.140 I guess that leads to the question, do we look for these things outside of this? Because quite honestly,

00:06:02.400 I'm not willing to do that with, with my marriage. Is there other relationships that we need to maybe

00:06:06.660 get some of this from, or how does that work? Or is it striking the balance with your one partner?

00:06:11.540 It's actually just a tiny bit of each. One thing that is really interesting. And there was a study

00:06:17.980 about when someone in a couple saw their partner as their most attractive, when they felt most

00:06:24.180 attractive to that person. Often, I think the number one time was when they saw their partner

00:06:29.480 in their element, doing what they do best. If they are giving a presentation or they were at a party

00:06:35.000 and they were just being very social. And then when there's a, cause it's that amount of distance to

00:06:39.740 be able to be the observer of your partner. So at home, you know, doing the dishes in our pajamas,

00:06:44.700 it's like, we're, there's not very much distance compared to out. Something's happening. There's a

00:06:51.200 context. There's all these other people. There's a craft even, even if it's just a social craft

00:06:56.260 that you see your partner doing. And it's like, you can see them through fresh eyes.

00:07:00.320 There's an element of basically involving activities outside of the household. So not

00:07:07.380 outside of the relationship, but outside of the house and outside of maybe the relationship being

00:07:12.540 central. So it's attractive to see your partner doing something that they love that maybe doesn't

00:07:17.580 even concern you. And it's not, it's not a threat, but it's just a little bit of that exciting

00:07:22.280 difference. I think that practically it's just like going out, experiencing things together and

00:07:27.460 noticing where your partner really comes alive and where you may not have even seen them in that

00:07:33.080 way before. How do you recognize that when maybe you haven't been that observant as to where your

00:07:38.060 partner really thrives or quite honestly, maybe she has put some of those own personal interest on the

00:07:44.560 back burner for you or the family? Two amazing questions. First one is how do you become that

00:07:51.300 observant? It's so interesting because people were so dynamic. And when we see the same thing over and

00:07:56.780 over again, we start to just take it for what it is. Like it loses its newness. You know, I just moved

00:08:03.220 into my home. I love this place. I've been here for about six weeks. In the beginning, I would notice

00:08:08.120 everything. There was always new things I noticed. And now I just take it for what it is because it's

00:08:12.640 here. And it's just a part of the human cognition. That's helpful that we're not always just like

00:08:17.920 overwhelmed by new stimuli. If we've seen the same thing over and over, okay, great. That's what that

00:08:22.740 thing is. I can put it in a box. I know what that is, you know, and rather than seeing it in such a

00:08:27.660 fresh way that requires a lot of bandwidth. I think a similar thing can happen in our partnerships where

00:08:33.620 it's like, oh yeah, you know, this is Kate. I know Kate. I love Kate. This is Kate. When in reality,

00:08:38.360 Kate is a very complex person, much more complex than my house. Very complex, very intricate,

00:08:44.780 always changing, especially if personal development is a priority. But even regardless,

00:08:51.760 always changing, always new. And those things, there was a story of a couple who was out to

00:08:58.620 dinner with the wife's girlfriend. So it was the three of them having dinner. And the wife's

00:09:04.880 girlfriend was not married, did not have kids. The couple, the married couple did have kids and

00:09:10.460 they had several glasses of wine. And after a while, the wife says, you know, sometimes I'm

00:09:17.060 jealous of you. You know, of course I love my family, but I feel like there's a part of myself

00:09:21.740 that I've given up. There could have been another path for me, you know, without my marriage, without

00:09:26.560 my kids, like there could have been something else. And sometimes I feel jealous of you. And it was

00:09:31.840 just this pensive, transparent saying. And, and her husband was so attracted to her in that moment.

00:09:39.440 So, because he had been feeling the same thing, but he felt guilty about it. He didn't think that

00:09:44.220 that was okay to think or to say. They never talked about it, but hearing her talk about it,

00:09:49.320 then now later he could bring it up and then they could bond over that. Of course they love their

00:09:53.000 family. Oh my God, they love their kids. They love being together, but they're also whole,

00:09:57.440 complete individual people that could have had another life. You know, it's just kind of like

00:10:01.220 that little bit of distance where it's like, okay, you know what? We're together. We're committed.

00:10:05.460 We love each other. But also this is a whole other person. It's very complex. And it's interesting

00:10:11.440 to just think of in that way. But I think a reason why we don't, there's a couple of reasons. Number

00:10:16.020 one, it's just not what it naturally occurs to our brains. Cause we can take things for granted

00:10:20.640 when we see them a lot, cause that's just part of our bandwidth situation. The other thing is it can

00:10:25.680 be challenging to see our partners that way because we, we do crave that stability and security.

00:10:30.160 And so imagining like all the things that they could be. And that kind of leads into your second

00:10:34.360 question. Like what if she has parts of herself that she's put on hold, you know, for the sake

00:10:38.820 of the family, that is, would be an amazing conversation to have with her. And especially

00:10:43.420 because a lot of women, it's just such a default for a lot of women. And what ends up happening is 1.00

00:10:48.680 we don't always realize that we're feeling a little resentful about that. Like we don't even know,

00:10:53.200 but then there can be responses within the marriage of like pulling back in subtle ways

00:10:59.800 and nobody really knows what's going on. But what's happening is that the wife feels kind

00:11:04.580 of resentful or not fully like she can really be all of her, which of course, you know, over

00:11:10.360 time that can take a toll. So it's important just to sit, you know, just to be able to talk

00:11:15.380 about it and even float it as an idea. Like, Hey, you know, I listened to this podcast today

00:11:19.380 and they talked about this and I wonder, I wonder if you may have been feeling that way

00:11:23.800 and just float it to her. Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I think there's even something to be

00:11:27.660 said to the story that you had just told about the attractiveness to somebody who doesn't

00:11:33.120 necessarily need us all the time. And I think that's probably what the husband and both the

00:11:38.160 wife were experiencing. So what are your thoughts about keeping the relationship fresh, not only by

00:11:43.780 doing things together, but by doing your own thing as well? When you do your own thing,

00:11:48.420 you can keep this other parts of yourself alive and you can involve your partner or not, you know,

00:11:53.120 or you can, you can have some new things that you undertake together. You're going to have some

00:11:56.360 things that you do on your own. And I think a lot of people, especially if that's not been the modus

00:12:00.780 operandi in their relationship, that can feel very threatening. It's like a weekend apart or something

00:12:06.280 just feels threatening, not necessarily because they don't trust their partner or something,

00:12:09.480 but just because there's that closeness, like that absolute closeness is part of that stability of

00:12:14.320 like, okay, you know, you're here, we're together. We do. So then to branch out, it can be intimidating

00:12:19.540 to think I'm not the totality of everything that my partner wants and needs and vice versa,

00:12:23.960 but it's so liberating to like, I think the thing that makes it easier is that even though it can be

00:12:28.460 challenging right in that first moment, you can feel confronting immediately. It's like, Oh,

00:12:33.020 actually, Whoa, I like this much better. Okay. This is great because it's way too much pressure to be

00:12:38.380 the sum total everything to somebody else. It's way too much. Right. And I think it drains a lot

00:12:43.820 of your energy too. Cause I know that there's guys out there who said, you know, my wife needs all of

00:12:48.120 my attention, all of my time. And frankly, I just, I just can't do it anymore. And I think this is where

00:12:52.320 we start to see some of these relationships, you know, get extinguished. Exactly. You know,

00:12:56.740 one thing that I learned from Esther was that, you know, when she says that, so she's worked with a lot

00:13:03.360 of people who have had affairs or a partner has had affairs. So they come to her and they're like,

00:13:07.960 okay, what do we do? We rebuild this or what do we do? And she says that when, when she talks with

00:13:14.360 the person who had an affair privately, or even as a couple, they'll say a variation on this. They'll

00:13:20.660 say, you know, I wasn't running from you. I was running from the person that I had become

00:13:26.920 in partnership with you. Sure. Like that I had been, you know, not as alive denying myself in

00:13:35.340 some way. And that felt bad. And obviously like an affair is not the solution, but she did explain

00:13:41.120 how, when there is that, I mean, imagine how much distance that creates and even affairs had been

00:13:45.440 extremely, extremely charged for me, even just to like say that word or think about it. It's only

00:13:51.640 through studying her work and going to her events and, and just also talking about it more

00:13:55.820 inside my own partnership. And just, it's become less like of a extreme anxiety. Every time I even

00:14:02.440 hear or say the word, it's like, okay, this is actually something that happens. It's always

00:14:05.940 happened, but how can we be aware so that it doesn't just happen? How can we still be alive

00:14:11.660 and keep it fresh by attending to our own selves and sharing with our partner, you know, Hey, this is

00:14:16.600 something that I really want to do, or Hey, I sense that you're really wanting to do this. Let's talk

00:14:21.160 about how we can make that happen. And it can seem kind of insignificant, like, okay, there's so many

00:14:25.380 other things to do. There's the kids, there's this house, you know, we're adding on to this or that

00:14:29.520 there's always other things, but it's actually just important not to underestimate just having

00:14:34.560 one thing outside, either shared or separate. And, you know, you guys can talk about that together.

00:14:40.520 Is this something that you're wanting to do on your own? And that can be challenging, not only for your

00:14:45.520 partner, but for you too. It's like, what? I thought we, I thought that I would always be happy to have

00:14:51.020 you right there. But sometimes, you know, if you're wanting that space, that's totally okay.

00:14:55.280 And that's because you're a human, you're a person that is your own person and your partner can never

00:15:00.680 be all of the same things that you are or have all of the same interests that you have.

00:15:04.160 Okay. So this, this is actually bringing up a couple of different scenarios and conversations,

00:15:09.600 specific conversations that I've had with men. One of the conversations I have is how do you deal

00:15:15.020 with or convince even for lack of a better term, a partner who may not be on board with you going

00:15:21.880 out and doing your own thing and wants to be there with you present all the time, nonstop.

00:15:28.740 I bet that that's common. And I think it's especially because as women, it's just like, 0.99

00:15:34.420 I didn't even realize I've been realizing it in layers myself over the past couple of months. It's

00:15:38.960 like how much as women, we really think that we're just there to please the man. And we don't think 0.97

00:15:46.180 it in the front of our heads, like that we would ever say that, but just in the back of our heads,

00:15:50.740 just being raised that way and seeing that and thinking that. So for her, what's likely happening

00:15:57.900 is that she hasn't thought about what she wants to do. And even her husband's process on how he

00:16:05.060 speaks, this is a very important point. So let's say a guy goes to his wife and says, honey, I've

00:16:10.400 been really wanting to pick up hunting again. I haven't done it in years. I loved it. It's so

00:16:14.920 relaxing and fun for me for all these reasons. And she's like, great, I'll go with you. And he's

00:16:19.940 like, no, no, like you need to think about what it is that you want to do. But when he, if he were

00:16:25.080 to say that in that moment, if he were to say, well, Hey, how about when I go out hunting with my

00:16:29.360 buddies, you can go do something with your girlfriends. But the thing is, if he suggests that in that

00:16:34.240 moment and that that's the only time they talk about it, I think of course, you know, it'd be

00:16:37.800 okay if he suggested that in the moment, but then talk about it later. Because if he suggests that

00:16:41.620 in that moment, she's already triggered in feeling some kind of insecurity that made her even want to

00:16:47.960 say, great, I'll go with you. Right. Some sort of neglect, maybe even, or something like that.

00:16:51.900 Yeah. Right. Okay. So then if he's like, oh, you need to go find your own thing, that feels like so

00:16:55.980 much pressure. It's like, how can she think about what she wants when she's scared? Nobody can think

00:17:02.140 about what they want when they're scared. And then it feels like so much pressure. And then

00:17:06.560 if she's just wanting to please and whatever, then that even makes that go into overdrive.

00:17:11.000 Cause now she's like, oh, now I'm not doing a good enough job thinking about what I want. But then

00:17:14.980 there's this whole other stress. She's like, I'd rather just not think about what I want and avoid

00:17:19.040 this whole stress. But if both partners aren't thinking about what they want and taking steps towards

00:17:24.920 that, it will always feel out of balance. If one partner goes to pursue something and the other one

00:17:30.080 doesn't. Well, you talk about this scary thing. Like to me, I hear that. I'm like, what's the

00:17:34.300 reason? Like, why would anybody be scared? But I'm sure there's experiences that a woman might

00:17:38.860 had or, or a man that may have caused them to think, you know, maybe have some jealousy issues

00:17:44.080 or some neglect issues that they haven't fully worked towards. How do you start to get to those,

00:17:49.960 the root of those things? Is it therapy? Is it just having these open conversations? What does that

00:17:54.420 look like? The book mating and captivity is an incredible read. I absolutely recommend that book

00:18:01.180 because she talks about these two desires of adventure and sexiness and all of this, but then

00:18:06.380 security and stability on the other hand. And one thing I really love about the way that that book's

00:18:11.360 written is that it doesn't assume that there's a problem with one person or the other. And so many

00:18:18.320 things come to a full stop when one or both people assume that one or both people have this big

00:18:25.920 problem, you know? Yeah. Just to play devil's advocate. Isn't that kind of true? Like, isn't

00:18:30.780 there really a problem in the past that's causing some of these issues? It's much more complex than I

00:18:36.900 completely fully know. And I'm not a trained therapist and being at a weekend with all trained

00:18:41.060 therapists, I was like, Oh my God, you guys are so smart in ways that I'm just not. It was kind of

00:18:45.160 amazing. I got lots of free therapy that weekend. It was, it was great. And intimidating. I'm sure

00:18:49.480 at the same time, it was crazy. They've been practicing for 30 years. I'm like, Oh my God,

00:18:53.460 that's amazing. I have not. And I'm not even doing that. So of course there are, I mean, you know,

00:18:58.980 there's a reason why people explore these things in therapy. There are things to explore in therapy,

00:19:04.440 but the stance should be, if the stance is something like a little bit looser, a little bit more like

00:19:11.180 forgiving a little, or a little bit less stigma. Cause I think the stigma of like, Oh no, now I

00:19:16.720 have a problem. Now the problem 10 X is. And we need to fix you and everything. Yeah. It's like,

00:19:22.000 Oh, exactly. Exactly. So it's taking a stance that's more curious and even playful where it can be,

00:19:28.420 or at least just curious and more relaxed is so helpful because if one partner is thinking, okay,

00:19:34.320 well, gosh, you know, why would she be intimidated by this? There must be something wrong in there that

00:19:40.120 we've got to go in and fix it. Whereas for her, maybe the problem is that she just doesn't feel

00:19:45.860 like she knows how to express herself and what she wants. Maybe she wants to want something.

00:19:50.780 She wants to want you to go hunting, but there's just something. And maybe it's not this super huge

00:19:57.460 long history thing because even all of the common knowledge that we have, or I guess it's not common

00:20:01.800 for everybody, including myself, but the knowledge that therapists have built up in all these studies.

00:20:06.320 I mean, even that has gone through lots of metamorphoses because there keeps on being 0.64

00:20:10.980 new and new findings. That's why I just, I challenge any way that my thinking is rigid or

00:20:16.720 like with the clients I work on, we don't work on their relationship necessarily yet. We're just

00:20:20.420 working on dating anyway. And they're, when their thought pattern is rigid or when my own thought

00:20:24.920 pattern is rigid, I'm like, okay, how can I relax a little? And just asking those questions,

00:20:30.020 like, how can I X? How can I, it's like an open-ended how question that's not asking like,

00:20:37.340 what's wrong with me, which is a very bad question. That's going to get some bad answers. Cause we can

00:20:43.480 all ask a question to ourselves right now and feel real bad instead of saying, I wonder what is it that

00:20:51.180 I would like? What is it that I, that I want to want just these more open-ended things. I think for,

00:20:56.240 especially for women, it's important to have that space because when we feel like our whole job is, 1.00

00:21:02.780 is to please and just to fit into some kind of a mold, that's the opposite of space. There's no space.

00:21:09.380 It's so confining and we don't even always realize it. And we can be thinking one thing,

00:21:15.220 but then feeling this other way. And sometimes it's a more roundabout realizations too,

00:21:20.680 like women's versus men's process or not to say women and men, the masculine process and the

00:21:25.980 feminine process, masculine process can be much more linear and more logic driven with the Myers

00:21:32.340 Briggs. If you're a thinking type versus a feeling type, those are completely different ways of

00:21:36.600 processing information, our own thoughts and feelings, what we want to do. So for a man to say,

00:21:43.080 okay, well clearly, you know, I noticed I'd been missing hunting and so I want to go back. And I

00:21:46.720 don't, you know, if you wanted to go do something, I would be down for that. I don't, I don't really see

00:21:50.800 what the thing is. So to have compassion of like, okay, well, even though I don't understand it right

00:21:55.320 now, there must be something going on that I can respect in you because you are an intelligent woman

00:22:01.600 who I love and who I've loved for a long time. And you may not have the words right now to even

00:22:08.140 express how you're feeling, but I know that there's something in there. I know that there's

00:22:12.040 something beautiful in there. That belief in your partner is a miracle. I know that there's something

00:22:18.620 beautiful in there. We don't need to like jackhammer it out. We can let it come out. But the way we do

00:22:23.480 that is through questions. I wonder what it is that you might like to do. No pressure, just an open

00:22:30.760 question with like a glass of wine, just a question. I wonder what that might be. And if she feels

00:22:36.800 resistance to even exploring that, then you can say, looks like this might be kind of scary for you.

00:22:42.880 What do you think might be scary about it? Like questions like that are so good. And

00:22:48.320 coaching, those questions are great and leads to a lot of change. And those are simple questions

00:22:53.040 that can be explored with one person to another in a coupleship of like, okay, I wonder what's there.

00:22:59.540 And, and for you to say, okay, she's going through her process, whatever it is that we discover is

00:23:05.220 great. I just want to know her at, and I want for her to know herself. I just started working with,

00:23:12.580 with a client the other day. And he was like, Sarah, I don't even know if I want to date and

00:23:20.160 get married. And I don't even know if I want that because I have so much pressure that's telling me

00:23:24.800 to do that. My church, everybody at churches is this unspoken rule that if I'm past the age of 30

00:23:30.200 and I'm not partnered, that there must be something wrong with me. And I feel that pressure every day,

00:23:35.440 especially every time I go there. And I feel pressure from my family. They're like, they didn't want,

00:23:39.920 my parents didn't want me to date growing up, but now all of a sudden, where's my wife? And he's

00:23:43.820 like, I feel so much pressure to the point that I don't even know what I want. So I said to him,

00:23:47.800 okay, how about this? The program happens in three phases. The second two phases are focused on dating.

00:23:53.020 How about we just do the first phase only for you, which is just about knowing yourself,

00:23:57.700 knowing what you want, some good mindset tools to be able to navigate that and to differentiate

00:24:02.920 between what you want versus what you feel pressure to do. And if you want to continue and learn how to

00:24:08.040 date great. And if you don't also great, we don't have an agenda for you. We don't need for you to

00:24:13.320 want any certain thing. Whatever you want is wonderful. We just want to know what that is.

00:24:18.220 We want for you to know what that is. And there's no right answer. Whatever is what you genuinely want

00:24:23.940 is the right answer. And we'll delight in that money. It is a sensitive subject. I know that this is

00:24:31.100 one area, a lot of men listening to this podcast could really use some help in. I know it's not the most

00:24:35.920 important thing, but it ranks right up there at the top. And it just so happens that money is the

00:24:40.880 very thing. It's the exact thing that we're talking about inside of our exclusive mastermind,

00:24:44.780 the iron council this month. When you join us, you are going to be joining 280 other men who are

00:24:50.560 motivated, ambitious, and they're dedicated to accomplishing their goals. You're also going to

00:24:55.320 join in the conversation about how to build wealth in your life and gain access to the tools and the

00:25:00.360 insights that you need to take charge of your financial situation. Again, money is not the most

00:25:05.060 important thing, guys, but I've had money in my life and I've been without, and I can tell you

00:25:09.540 that understand how money works and having more of it in my life has always, always been the better

00:25:14.760 of the two. If you want to learn more about and reserve your seat at the table inside the iron

00:25:18.820 council, you can do that at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com

00:25:25.080 slash iron council. Now let's get back to that conversation with Sarah.

00:25:28.360 Yeah. I want to come back to this idea of pressure and societal norms and what a couple should be

00:25:35.540 doing, but I really wanted to touch on the point that you made about asking questions because I

00:25:40.000 know specifically with my wife, if we either have a disagreement or even if she comes with what I

00:25:45.220 would consider a problem, which in my mind warrants a solution, but that's not always the case. And we can

00:25:51.060 talk all day about that. I've noticed that rather than offering solutions, offering those questions

00:25:57.340 without, without grilling either, you know, you don't want it to be an interrogation, but asking

00:26:02.360 those questions like, well, why do you feel that way? Why is this the case? It seems to really,

00:26:07.200 really help her work out through her own challenges or whatever she may be experiencing. And it certainly

00:26:12.560 helps me not be so frustrated because we don't come to any sort of conclusion at the end of our

00:26:16.440 conversation. Ryan, I love that. I totally see how that can make her feel good. And I think it works

00:26:23.220 for both of you for this reason, because if you just offer a solution, she may feel like that's just

00:26:28.200 being lazy. Like, Oh, here, here's a solution. Okay. Bye. Because there's a problem underneath there.

00:26:34.100 There's something going on. It's more complex than just that. Great thing is you get to keep your

00:26:39.200 problem solving hat on because you're curious and digging into all the reasons why, and you're respecting it

00:26:45.420 as an intricate thing that, that it is, you know, her, her process, you're respecting it by asking

00:26:51.100 those questions, but you're still making progress because you're still helping her get to the bottom

00:26:55.240 of her own thing. And by asking questions, you're showing her and yourself that the answer to her own

00:27:02.800 stuff lies in her and you're helping to draw that out. So it's very respectful. It's fun, right? To ask

00:27:09.040 those questions and be curious about her. And it's also very productive because if you weren't asking

00:27:14.100 those questions, it might be hard for her to ask them for herself or to know what to ask. Because when

00:27:19.140 somebody else asks us good questions, it's such a gift, especially if it's something that's challenging

00:27:23.220 emotionally to think about. If anything's challenging, it's tempting to just push it to the back burner

00:27:28.120 and deal with the things that are more urgent, right? So by you asking her those questions, you're giving

00:27:32.940 her a gift of the space to think about what the answers might be. And I love that you're doing that.

00:27:38.800 And I think that that's, I just think if there's only one thing that anybody listening takes away

00:27:42.700 is like, if there's something going on, asking your partner questions to get to know her better

00:27:47.800 and still be seeking a solution, but going to expanding the questions first and letting her

00:27:54.460 arrive at her solution. Right. Which I think takes a level of even just emotional maturity,

00:28:00.100 understanding that other people are just as intelligent as you are and probably have the

00:28:05.800 solutions to their own questions and problems and letting them figure it out for themselves.

00:28:09.940 I mean, this is something that we talk about in the context of raising children. It's something we

00:28:14.480 talk about in the context of maybe a consultant or a coach or even a sales professional within an

00:28:19.600 organization is allowing people to come to their own conclusions is very, very powerful.

00:28:24.040 It really is. And I feel really happy that I think that's catching on more and becoming more of the

00:28:29.720 norm. Like I love that we're talking about it right now because I just think it's,

00:28:32.780 it's an evolution. If you want to talk about like the business side of it, sales and whatever,

00:28:37.220 it's like, gosh, you know, 30 years ago in commercials, they were just hitting us over

00:28:41.400 the head with stuff. And then it became more kind of like suave. But then now I, at least this is how

00:28:46.860 I strive to do it. And I'm, you know, you too, it's like, we're not trying to pull anything over on

00:28:51.580 anybody or just offer like this quick fix without listening. Cause that's good sales too, right? To

00:28:56.220 really listen and then co-create a solution, suggest something and let them make their decision.

00:29:01.920 It's the same thing in relationships.

00:29:04.620 Well, I want to jump back to the conversation of pressure because I think this is something a lot

00:29:09.200 of couples succumb to, whether that's societal pressure or pressure from parents. You talk about

00:29:13.980 the gentleman who from his church, for example, he's supposed to be married. Why do we succumb to

00:29:19.300 these pressures of the way that we should behave and interact within a relationship that frankly is

00:29:24.660 between two people, not anybody else?

00:29:27.060 I think it's because if, when we know what we really want, that becomes the compass and it

00:29:34.320 becomes compelling enough to let all the noise be noise. Okay. Cause we're not grasping for an

00:29:41.420 answer, not grasping for something. But if we're not as sure, if we don't have as compelling of a

00:29:47.380 mission of a personal mission, a personal development mission, or just experiencing life the way that we

00:29:52.000 most want to or a relationship, we don't have that vision for what we're creating, then we're going

00:29:57.160 to be seeking it. And if we don't seek it thoughtfully through self-inquiry and talking

00:30:01.940 about it in very transparent and curious ways, then we're going to accidentally seek it from all

00:30:07.980 of the myriad of very readily available pressure and advice from other people. I think that that's

00:30:14.340 kind of what it is because it's hard. It's, it's hard to go along with no compass. And so we want,

00:30:20.280 want something. So that's why it's so important to be thoughtful about, okay, well, what do I want?

00:30:25.340 What is a fresh relationship look like for me? And asking, knowing that there's no wrong answer,

00:30:31.400 whatever you want. And even if you and your partner come up with different answers for that,

00:30:35.080 that seem that they're not coming together over time, if you talk about it more, talk about it more,

00:30:41.540 talk about it more, you may find that it's actually very compatible and it actually is so rich because

00:30:46.440 you have these two perspectives. And then when you bring them together, it's actually very rich

00:30:50.800 compared to borrowing a perspective from somebody that has a lot of opinions.

00:30:55.920 Right, right. And you've internalized. And of course, it's important to you.

00:30:59.000 Let me shift gears here a little bit, because one of the things I definitely want to ask you about,

00:31:03.680 and I think this pertains more to somebody who might be in a dating relationship as opposed to a

00:31:08.440 marriage. Because I think, in my opinion, once you've committed to and married a person,

00:31:13.240 you shouldn't take the easy way out. And I know there's divorces and things that happen because

00:31:17.440 of circumstances. And I get that. But with all that you can, I think that a husband and a wife

00:31:22.680 should stay together. But that being said, when you notice that maybe your vision isn't completely

00:31:28.300 in line with your partner, are those things deal breakers? Because I hear a lot of guys say,

00:31:34.060 well, I really love her. And I admire this about her and this and this, but we're not quite in line

00:31:37.920 here. Is that something that should just be a deal breaker for the relationship? Or how do you work

00:31:42.140 through this stuff?

00:31:43.360 I think that fundamental views on important things are just like how the world works. And

00:31:49.460 there's basically two things. Fundamental views on how things work. It doesn't have to match up

00:31:54.380 exactly, but it should at least be complimentary. It shouldn't be opposite, because that's really

00:31:59.860 important. That's really, really important. And then on the other side is your vision for the

00:32:05.280 future and what you want. For example, do you want to have kids or not have kids? Gosh, you know,

00:32:09.480 you better both want the same thing. And people can change later, change their minds later, whatever.

00:32:13.900 But it's the more that you think about that ahead of time and really honestly explore that with

00:32:18.820 yourself and do your due diligence to determine whether she has two in terms of the kind of lifestyle

00:32:25.440 that you actually want. Because there's so many cool things that we could be doing. You know,

00:32:29.980 we could have, you know, X many kids and travel the world, visit every country and start three

00:32:34.980 businesses. I mean, but life is such that you got to choose what's most important. And for the things

00:32:41.780 that shape your life together, those are important things to talk about. And if they're very different,

00:32:46.600 you know, if she wants to be on the road all the time and you don't, but each of you wants to be

00:32:50.920 together, well, you know, that may be something where you're not the right match. In fact, I have

00:32:55.980 a friend who I just talked to her yesterday. She's, she's dating someone and his home base is in New

00:33:00.860 York. She knows she doesn't want to live there. And when they talked about that, they realized,

00:33:04.920 well, then I guess this isn't a match. They're still kind of, you know, they're not like a hard

00:33:09.040 line. Okay. We're not together anymore, but they're kind of easing towards that because she knows that

00:33:13.720 she doesn't want to be there. Even though he hasn't said he knows he does, she can tell that he does.

00:33:19.020 Right. So then that's it because it's life. It shapes your life. These, these small things that

00:33:24.340 seem like a small detail are important. Well, and I think just to come into the conclusion and

00:33:29.160 understanding that that's okay too, because I think we go back to the societal norms and the

00:33:33.800 pressure is like, Oh, you found this amazing woman and she's perfect in every way. And she has this, 0.87

00:33:38.300 and you guys have so much in common and she's successful or she's intelligent or bright or beautiful.

00:33:43.020 And you're going to throw it all away because you don't jive on this one thing. It's okay. If it

00:33:47.000 doesn't jive, it doesn't jive. There's, there's other people out there.

00:33:50.180 There are, there totally are. Exactly. I totally agree with you. I don't, I don't think that that

00:33:54.880 could be stated enough because those things, they shape your life, you know, decades and it's very

00:34:01.260 important to be thoughtful. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay. So as we wind down, I want to just maybe ask you

00:34:07.740 about some ideas because I think it'd be really cool just to generate some thoughts for guys as they're

00:34:13.340 trying to infuse a little bit more passion, excitement, energy, romance, even potentially in

00:34:19.500 their relationship. What are some just really cool ideas that a guy can incorporate in his

00:34:25.060 relationship to add a spark, if you will? One great thing is a change of scenery, doing something new

00:34:30.780 together. There's been lots of studies about how when we do something new as a couple, we associate

00:34:35.660 that newness back to the coupleship. So that's a really fun thing. You know, being a tourist in your

00:34:40.860 own city or looking up like the top fun things to do where you live or taking a road trip or just

00:34:45.860 going on an adventure together, big or small is great because you're, then you see each other in

00:34:51.200 new context because you're out of the house and onto a brand new place you've never been before.

00:34:55.920 Yeah. I love that idea. I love that idea of just trying something new. I know we do that all the

00:35:00.700 time. We always find new things. So very valid advice for sure. As we wind down, I did prepare you a

00:35:07.820 little bit for this question I'm about to ask you. And you know, because you've been on the show

00:35:11.120 before that I do ask all of my guests, what does it mean to be a man? That might be difficult for

00:35:15.520 you to answer the way I word it, but I'd be really interested in your perspective, a woman's perspective

00:35:21.040 on what she believes it means to be a man. Yeah. You know, I think Ryan, that it touches a lot on what

00:35:27.980 we've been talking about, about knowing yourself, being thoughtful, being okay with a little bit,

00:35:33.300 or sometimes a lot of discomfort to get to what's most important. I think that, that the themes that

00:35:38.840 you explore and the commitment that you have to integrity and having that strong compass, I think

00:35:45.220 that's been a part of our conversation as well. And that's a part of, of what I see that it means

00:35:49.980 to be a man is making decisions that you want to make rather than having decisions made for you.

00:35:55.900 I love it. Yeah. Definitely powerful and being your own man. Well, Sarah, I just got to let you know,

00:35:59.400 I appreciate you. If somebody's listening to this and they say, I need to learn more,

00:36:03.220 I need to figure out what she's up to. I need some help or guidance in a certain area that she's

00:36:06.700 talked about. How do we connect with you? So you can go to introvertedalpha.com

00:36:12.120 and you can sign up for my free gifts. I have a free ebook about how to find what's most attractive

00:36:18.680 about you. I have married men also writing me that they've read it and that it's been enlightening for

00:36:23.120 them. So not, not just for singles, that would be the best place to get in touch. And then I send emails

00:36:27.900 really frequently. They're just really fun and casual and it's a good way to stay connected.

00:36:33.080 Awesome. We'll make sure we link all of that up in the show notes so the guys can check that out.

00:36:36.820 Sarah, I appreciate you. I appreciate your work. I know what you're doing has been very impactful in

00:36:41.600 a lot of the guys in our audience and their lives. And I appreciate the way that you're showing up for

00:36:47.060 them. This is something that is much needed. So thanks for joining us today.

00:36:49.940 Thank you so much, Ryan. I loved it. I loved it as always. Thank you.

00:36:53.440 There it is guys. My conversation with Sarah Jones, there was a ton of valuable information

00:36:59.980 in this one to keep that fire alive in your relationship. I hope, I hope, I hope that you

00:37:04.640 take the stuff to heart and more importantly, that you implement it in your relationship. I have,

00:37:08.820 I've implemented some of the things that we talked about and I can definitely tell there's a difference

00:37:12.340 between my wife and I. So make sure you check out her work. You can grab the links and the resources,

00:37:17.160 everything that you might need at order of man.com slash one one four. In the meantime,

00:37:22.180 if you're interested in joining us at our live one day meetup, do that quick. You can register

00:37:27.160 at order of man.com slash event. And if you're interested in joining our exclusive band of

00:37:32.320 brothers inside the iron council, you can do that at order of man.com slash iron council guys. I am

00:37:38.600 going to look forward to talk with you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then take action

00:37:42.960 and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

00:37:48.580 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:37:52.600 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - May 30, 2017

115： Keeping the Fire Alive ｜ Sarah Jones

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