127： How to Market Yourself ｜ Noah Kagan
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Summary
Noah Kagan is the founder of app sumo and sumo, and the CEO of mint.io. He is also the co-host of the podcast, The Order of Men, and is a man of action. In this episode, Noah shares his story of how he built a business from the ground up, and how he was able to break into the corporate world.
Transcript
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Whether you own a business or you're working your way up the corporate ladder,
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learning how to more effectively market yourself is critical. Guys, this one is a little different
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as you listen in on the conversation I have with my friend Noah Kagan. We talk about business,
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side hustles, living from your purpose, and I even get into a small discussion about my religion,
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which is something I don't talk a whole lot about. But the underlying theme to the conversation that
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we have today is how to be more effective when it comes to marketing yourself.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly
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chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You
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are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.
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This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,
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you can call yourself a man. Men, what is going on today? My name is
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Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. Whether you are
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listening in for the first time today or you're a long-time veteran of The Order of Man podcast,
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I want to welcome you. The truth is that, guys, we just wouldn't be where we are today without you.
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In fact, just last week, we hit 3 million downloads, which is a huge number and, of course,
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a testament to every single one of you who listen to this show. So I want to thank you for that.
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Also, I do, at the same time, want to ask you for a favor. We still have a lot of work to do and a
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lot of room to do it. Please invite other men in your life, your dad, your brother, friends,
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colleagues, co-workers, any men that you know who would benefit from what we're sharing here at The
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Order of Man. I don't have any announcements for you guys today as we just wrapped up our first live
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meetup, which was such a huge success. I had such a great weekend with the guys, 75 guys from all over
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the country. We are going to be releasing the date and the location of our next event in the coming
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weeks. So make sure if you miss this one and you want to be out there that you be on the lookout
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for that. In the meantime, if you are looking to expand upon this conversation and any conversation
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that we have here on the podcast, you can do that in two different places. The first one is in our
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Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash order of men and more formally and maybe a little
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bit more structured is our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council. And you can learn more about
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that and join us at order of man.com slash iron council. I'm going to tell you a little bit more
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about it during our break in the show. Guys, my guest today, as I mentioned before is Noah Kagan.
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Some of you will recognize the name others will not, but if you run a website in some form or the other,
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and you have a business, I'm sure that you're already using the tools that he created for his
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business. He is the founder of app sumo and sumo. He was employee number 30 at Facebook and employee
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number four at mint. If you want to read some interesting stories, look into how he separated
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from each of those companies. In other words, the guy knows what he's doing. He knows how to market
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himself and he knows how to do things on a large scale. So with that, sit back, take notes if you
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need to and listen in and in a way be a fly on the wall with my conversation with Noah Kagan on
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marketing yourself. How did you get into what you're doing, man? I mean, I know you were at
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Facebook, you were at mint and then, and then what? Like where did it go? Yeah. My journey,
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I always try to relate it to the people listening to, cause sometimes I hear people's stories and
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I'm like, well, yeah, I'm at my job that sucks or I'm running my thing. And so I've always want to
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try to share what I've learned. And my, my dream was literally to go to the beaches of Thailand and
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have sex on the beach and like work on an internet company. Like no joke. Like I was literally,
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I wanted, I don't know how PG 13 is, but I want to hand jobs for food or whatever. Like I just
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went in my laptop and chilling on the fucking beach. That was my dream. So at night and in the mornings
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and weekends, I was building Facebook games. You remember that annoying fucking like Farmville
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shit? Yep. Yep. Yeah. So I was one of the first guys cause I saw that there was an opportunity there.
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I'm generally not the first. Is this when you were with Facebook or is this outside of that?
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It was at Mint. Okay. Right afterwards. But a lot of people, I mean, you have kids, so I actually
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respect people more that have kids and start their own things. Cause like I don't have kids
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and my, my brother has a kid and the amount of extra time they take is just insane. Especially
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if you want to be a good parent, if you want to be a bad parent, then it's fine.
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It's cool. You're good. Actually, Dale talked about that this morning. He said, you know,
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I could probably go like an extra two speeds with my business, but I deliberately and intentionally
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choose not to because I have this other priority that's important to me. So I, yeah, it's what
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you're saying is valid for sure. Well, also the thing with being a, I think my friend came up with a
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theory called, uh, you know, everyone's looking for productivity hacks. It's like,
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have a kid. It's like, dude, when you have a kid, I've got five hours to work. And if I don't get
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my shit done in five hours, like it is not happening. Yeah. Yeah. So I might get the girl
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I'm seeing pregnant just so I can see if this works. Just long term experiment, brother. Like
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you better be sure that's, that's the thing you want to do. So yeah, I mean, long story short,
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yeah. Mornings, nights, weekends. And I built the Facebook game and I think if everyone wants to quit
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their job, you know, and I don't think everyone should quit their job. It's some jobs are actually
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great. Yeah. And most of the time running your own company isn't as glamorous as it seems. I'm sure
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you know that it's, it's not lonely at the top. Cause I mean, top is relative, but there's good
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things about being a part of a company and a team. And so you have to work from like, well, how much
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money do I need to run my own, my own deal? You just do like your minimum, like basically your
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minimum expenses for the month. Is that how you do that? Yeah. So I was like, well, if I'm living in
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Thailand and I want a little bit of savings, I basically calculated $3,500 a month and everyone's got
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their own number. Right. And so I'm not, I think a lot of people think you, when you start a company,
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you've got to quit your job and just go do it. And that's just never how I've been. I'm much more
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calculated about, all right, either a, am I making that amount of money in terms of monthly taken
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or B is it showing me that I can make it? I've never just quit and like hoped it works.
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I don't know if anybody has, like everybody talks about that, but then you're like, well,
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so what'd you do? Oh, well, my story was different. I didn't do it that way. I didn't burn the
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bridges. I did it this way. Yeah. I think you should do that.
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Yeah. Good luck. Well, I think the burn the bridges strategy, you know, or I think I like
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the phrase burn the plank. So you have to just go off of it. Right. I think that's actually really
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good. I think so many times when people are starting businesses, they just kind of like half
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asset so that when it fails, they're like, you know, I really didn't try that hard. It's like,
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well, why did you go in expecting it to fail? Right. Right. That's like, why, why get married
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expecting to get a divorce? Or, you know, yeah, you know, the one I hear a lot is, is like, well,
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you know, I've, I've got 12 months of expenses saved up. I'm going to go do this. And then they
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don't do anything. And it's like, well, I still have eight months of expenses saved up. I still
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have three months like, oh man, now I need to get to do something. And they have to go back to work
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because they never got started, even though they had things aligned to be able to do it.
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I think the simple solution tying everything we've talked about is, you know, what's worked for me in my
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career and help makes relatively successful companies. You know, I'm proud of them is pick something
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that you're interested in. So the companies that have done well for me and I've stuck around is that I just
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solved my own problems. I didn't try to fix other people's problems. I don't try to create products
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specifically designated for women because I don't know what women want a lot of the time.
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So, I mean, so the understanding is like, well, what, and it's not just about women or whatever
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genders or race. It's like, yeah, it's like, well, what, what do I want for myself? And it's like,
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well, I wanted cheap deals. I wanted good deals on products. So I started AppSumo and then I wanted
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tools to grow my email list. And we started sumo.com and it's very easy to promote those things and
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stick with them when you want them for yourself. And then the second thing is you're saying like
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the podcast stuff, like as I started my show, Noah Kagan, I just really just love fucking talk. It
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gives me like a great excuse to meet people I want to meet for sure. Yeah. And I don't make any money
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off it. I have no products on it or anything. And it's just like, that's something I like doing.
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So to your point, which I think is great is like, find something you want, stick with it for a long
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time and keep improving, like keep experimenting with like, all right, now try this type of guest or try this
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type of format. And, you know, over a long period of time, if you can stick with it,
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you will get whatever you want. Yeah. I mean, that's worked up to this point for us. So I guess
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the question then is when are we going to have like a taco review website out or something like that?
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On my side, I really do eat a lot of tacos. I know. That's what I'm saying. I'm like,
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you solve your own problems. Here you go. Here's a perfect opportunity.
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I think there's, you know, I talked to a friend about this and I think there's things that are
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personal and I think there's things that are business. And I do think sometimes we want to
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do a personal thing as part of our business, but it's like, that's your personal stuff.
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Yeah. Yeah. I think you can, you should definitely merge who you are in your company. And I said
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this yesterday and it was, I think it's very true. Companies are basically physical representations of
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the founder. So the company really, if you're disorganized and your company will be disorganized.
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If you're got your shit together, your company will probably have a shit together. And so I've
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thought about, do I want to open a taco stand or a taco website? I don't think that's how I want to
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spend the next five years. Yeah. You just want to eat tacos, right? Yeah. I mean, I want to talk about
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tacos and it's just more of like, I just really eat a lot of them.
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I built a, uh, I, this was a couple of months ago. I built a grow box for my wife cause she
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wanted to plant her garden in eight of these grow boxes. And our neighbor came over and said,
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Hey, will you build me one of those? I'll pay you. I'm like, no, I like, I like working out in the
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shop, but the minute I have to do it for somebody else and be in a contract and payment and everything
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else like that strips everything that I like about being out in the shop on these projects. So I
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declined that. So I can see there's a difference between, Hey, this is what I enjoy. Let's just
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keep it as an enjoyment or a hobby versus, Hey, let's try to make this a career.
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Yeah. I remember a story. I met a guy who's like a, not a Somalia, but like loved wine and
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we're doing a workshop about how to start a business. And he said, you know, I really want
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to do, uh, teach people like classes for wine. And I said, well, does anyone here want to sign
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up for it? And no one wanted it. Yeah. And then, then we were like, all right, well, what do
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people want? And they're like, man, I, if I have a date, I just want to be able to like
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look up which bottle of wine to buy. And then everyone's like, yeah, dude, I would pay for
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this. I'll give him money. I'll pay, I'll give you money right now to tilt, to tell me
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this stuff. And the guy, what I respect, he was like, no, I'm not interested in that.
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And, uh, and it's not necessarily personal business, but I think there's something there
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about staying true to what you really want versus just like, cause everybody else is wanting
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it. And that's the challenge in business, especially what I've been noticing is that you have
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this Venn diagram of like shit I really want to do. And then there's a reality of what
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actually people want to give me money for and figuring out that happy medium for yourself.
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How do you do that? If you don't know what it is, if you don't know what you want,
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no, if you don't know if they'll pay for it. I think that's a problem I'm noticing with
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people is that a lot of people think they have marketing problems in business. And I love
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marketing. It's like my favorite thing is to find great people or products and promote
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them. And a lot of times when someone's marketing isn't working, it's not the marketing.
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It's just that the product sucks. They're like, Oh, I need more marketing help. And it's
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like, no one wants what you're having. Like no one wants it. So there's no amount of people
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help. Did you watch that restaurant show he had? He'd go in there and be like, Oh,
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our food's wonderful. And he's like, let me taste your food. He's like, no, that's your
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problem. Your food is horrible. So are you saying that the product sells itself?
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Yeah, it's not completely like if you write a great article and no one reads it, it's not
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a great article. If you write a shitty article and a bunch of people read, it doesn't mean
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it's a great article, but it means at least you have that attention to it and then you can
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get better. And hopefully it's not a bad article. But the point overall is that you actually
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have to go out and tell the world about what you're making. And if it's not great, most
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things aren't great right away. Right? So if it's like a total sham thing, then that's
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on you and I don't want to be a part of that. But if you, I think most people in general
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are promoting probably like 20% of what they actually should be doing if they've made something
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that they're proud of. Right? So if you've created software or a course or like a content
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thing, I think more people could probably spend a lot more time telling the world about
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it if it's actually as good as they believe it is. Yeah. And so this sounds like it's
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my problem, man. You're talking to me now. I think it's a lot of our problem. I think
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there's people who definitely are known for like hyper self-promotion and you know, some
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of it's valid and some of it's not, but there's something there where like they have the confidence
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or at least the moxie to go try it out. Right. And maybe I'm speaking to myself too. No,
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I mean, and it seems like, you know, you see these guys who do promote themselves and
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they're, they're, they're past that line of maybe like pride and they get into arrogance
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and a little bit of ego driven. And so you see that and you're like, Oh, I don't want
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to be that. But then at the same time, like there's no denying a lot of these guys have
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some success, right? Yeah. I think everyone just, and my debate, someone said this and
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I think it's very well with Greg McCown from essentialism book, which is amazing. He says,
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do you want to be a King or do you want to be a King maker? And I think some people have
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to decide, do they want to be like a promoter and like yourself where you help promote different
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things? Or do you want to be making products that are, you know, physical service products,
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whatever it is. But I think overall, like if you've made something you're semi proud of,
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more people should do a better job of letting others know about it. And what I've noticed,
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especially with businesses that we don't actually want to let people know because if they reject
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us, we think they're rejecting us. Right. As opposed to the product or whatever. Exactly.
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Well, so a story recently for me is my friend Dustin. He runs Fitfly Shaker and I've been
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telling the story cause I love the guy, but no one wants to buy his product.
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What is it? So I think I'm not using it right now. So a Fitfly Shaker is that he works out a lot.
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And so it's a disposable bag that you can put protein in and you take it to the gym,
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fill it up with water, take your protein drink after the workout and then throw it away.
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Okay. Yeah. Make sense? Yeah, I get it. So a lot of gym people don't do that cause they either
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have the protein bottles and it's not, you have to buy your own protein. Yeah. So you have your own
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water bottle or you have your own bottle or you don't do it. Right. And then you throw it away. So some of
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people are like, Oh man, that's a dick dude. You're wasting the environment, but you have
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the confidence. And so I think when you start a business, there's that contrast of if you go on
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Amazon and search travel water bottle, there's thousands of reviews of travel water bottles
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that are the same exact product. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Almost identical. And when starting a
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business, I think that's where you have to recognize like, yeah, you can go promote the shit
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out of something, but if no one's wanting it, then you're gonna have a fucking tough time. And so you
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have to actually just be aware. And I've, the way I've been thinking about it for my own life is when
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I'm having problems, I think sometimes I just think up, down, like my head goes up and down,
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like binary. Sure. And I'm like, Oh, I'm only looking up and down. Is there a lateral thing?
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So is there somewhere to the left and right, like around me to actually solve the problem I'm facing?
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Cause I think I just get so, I think of it like dinner. I'm like, I'm going to have this fucking
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dinner. I'm going to go get that, the sushi tonight. There's a place at Uchiko. And then my friend's
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like, Hey, I really want to go get Italian. And it's just so hard for me to get out of my like binary scope.
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Yeah. Yeah. If, uh, do you know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is? Yeah. So he talks about this. He talks
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about it in the context of dimension. So what he says, he says, we live, imagine that we live like
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on this piece of paper, for example. Right. And so everything that we say is on or everything that
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we do and experience is on this piece of paper. But what if something reached down and actually
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grabbed you from this, this separate dimension, which is space, right? Reach down. And I think that's
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what you're talking about here. Like, this is where I geek out on this stuff, but, um, it's a
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separate dimension and it's a new perspective and one that you can't see in your current little box
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or piece of paper that you're living on. I think that's great, man. Hey, so maybe the moral of the
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story for yourself and myself is that go out and tell one more person than you usually do about what
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you made. That's kind of the short of it. I mean, when I, I think when we've done something that
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we're proud of, we know it. Like when you've done great work, when you've done a good podcast
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episode or a great article, or you put together something with your mastermind, like we, you know,
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right. You know, and if you don't know, go find great people or great things to admire so that you
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can improve your own like a barometer of greatness. Yeah. That's a good point. How do you expand?
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And you, you say barometer and I've heard it, you know, a lot of different ways, but how do you expand
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your current level of thinking personally? Like what do you do to expose yourself to new information or new
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thoughts? A few different things personally. So number one, I, I look for experts that I can pay.
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Why, why is paying important? Cause I could, cause if you said I look for experts, everybody would
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nod their head, but you said, and pay, talk to me about that. Yeah. So two, I'll just give you two
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examples for myself. So like, let's say for my YouTube channel, I want to grow my YouTube channel
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and I'm curious. It's a fun experiment. It's kind of like, to your point, I want to have an experiment
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with it and I can go watch a bunch of videos, which I'm doing. And I'm reading a bunch of blog posts,
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which I'm doing and I'm doing the videos myself and I'm looking at the data and it's going okay.
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But other people have already figured it out. And for, you know, this guy, Tim Schmoyer,
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he runs a creator's channel, video creator. And for $400, you can hang out with him for an hour
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and he's already gone through to the promised land and he will show you the things and teach me the
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things that have already happened. And the same thing with my podcast. What are the top 10 podcasts?
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They're all NPR, right? All of them. One of them is Joe Rogan. It's like Joe Rogan or something like
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that. But yeah, exactly. So I was thinking to myself, well, why don't I just learn how the hell
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they do their shows? Cause they've already figured it out. And so I found one guy that's there and I
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spent two hours with them and we reviewed my existing shows, my outlines and my future shows.
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And he like dramatically changed the way I did my podcast. And the reason I pay, it's not even a lot
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of money. People are like, well, you've got money. It's easier for you. It's like 500 bucks,
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which sounds like a lot, but take $500 divided by three years per month. Right now you're talking
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like a few bucks a month and save a few months up for that if you don't have the money. But either
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way, that's a way of doing it. So that's been one way that's really dramatically. So coaches or
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experts are really paying for that. What are things if I recognize greatness? I think the second thing
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for myself, and this is one is a very simple for everyone to do today is how much effort, not even
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effort, effort, shit. How much time are you putting into it? So I've noticed a direct correlation
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from the amount of time I work on something to the actual quality of the output. Right.
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So I look at my articles that I've spent literally on okaydork.com. I like on marketing articles. I've
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spent certain articles probably like 40 to 80 hours. Yeah. And not all of it does great. Don't get me
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wrong. Like that's where you have to go get the word out. But most of them, the ones that don't spend a
00:17:49.000
lot of time on one out of 10 does really well. But the ones I spend a lot of time on almost,
00:17:53.700
you know, 50 to 100%, those are going to do great. Did I see one? I saw one just,
00:17:57.860
this must've been a couple of months ago, a Tony Robbins event that you walked out of.
00:18:01.740
Yeah. Yeah. So how much time did you spend on that? The rest of the weekend, right?
00:18:06.380
Dude, I spent, well, actually that's funny you say that. So I left the Tony Robbins event. I spent
00:18:10.080
hours in the morning, probably four hours writing the first like rough draft. Interesting. Then I worked
00:18:14.820
on it with a few people over the next three months. Really? Yeah. And the thing is people read it and be
00:18:20.120
like, oh, this is a good article. You know, Tony must've just, you know, pooped it out. He's a great writer. I'm
00:18:23.240
like, I am a shitty writer. Like I was an ESL. So why still do it? If you're not, if you're not
00:18:28.180
great at writing, why still do it? I'm not as much actually. So what I've been working on more this
00:18:33.160
year is like, what's my sweet spot? When am I stronger at? Talking to you gives me energy and
00:18:36.740
it gives me ideas and I get excited and motivated. And so the video and the podcast is where I spent
00:18:42.200
more of my time. And so I've been hiring people around me that let them spend their time in their
00:18:46.980
sweet spot. So that's kind of like an overall business life kind of concept. It's like,
00:18:51.420
and I hate the fucking cliche of it, but it's like, what are you really great at? Just do that
00:18:55.440
only. What do you suck at? Hire fucking someone else or don't do it. And so I found a writer who
00:19:01.240
I loved is writing. And I was like, Hey, can you list, take my podcast or my videos and write the
00:19:06.500
content and then I'll edit it. But he'll save me a lot of time and he's better at it than me. So why
00:19:11.200
should I try to do something like, it's like, we were like, Oh, I don't want to be weak at it. It's
00:19:15.120
like, yeah, well, I don't want to go to medical school to be a doctor. And so I kind of specialize in
00:19:20.420
what I'm great at. And that's helped me excel. Why did you say effort is shit?
00:19:25.340
Because I don't think you can pay bills with effort. And I think if you have effort with the
00:19:30.280
wrong blueprint, you're probably not going to get the right result. Right. Gary Halbert,
00:19:33.780
who's amazing. If you haven't read the boron letters, it's free. I love doing the, I guess,
00:19:37.520
because my Jewishness, the free stuff. But the boron letters are these free articles.
00:19:41.720
Yeah, my pleasure. I actually made a video about it. Anyways.
00:19:44.300
Um, did you really, are you kidding? Are you serious? I have a, the, about a Jew stuff video
00:19:49.840
I have. Well, so it's funny. I was thinking about this on my YouTube channel where if you're doing
00:19:54.860
stuff in the middle, like here's an interesting thing for everyone to think about. What's the
00:19:58.440
last meal you remember? And you probably remember maybe like for yourself, what's the last meal you
00:20:02.760
remember besides today? Well, barbecue last night with it being Memorial day. And then why was that
00:20:09.440
memorable? Probably because it was Memorial day. Yeah. So we tied to it that it stood out.
00:20:14.780
So in general, we don't remember most of our meals. Like if I asked, I had a month. Yeah. Yeah. If I
00:20:19.920
asked you had a month ago, you wouldn't remember, but I said, Hey, what's, you know, what's been a
00:20:22.500
meal you remember this year? You're like, Oh, Memorial day was great. Or like for me, like I got to eat
00:20:27.520
at this fancy restaurant, Alinea, which was on my bucket list. And that, and that was just magical for me.
00:20:32.140
And that was last year in June. And I don't even remember the exact day, but I, it's like, okay,
00:20:35.940
so why is that different than normal meals? And I think about it with my content and the things I'm
00:20:40.720
doing just even professionally in any aspect is that the stuff in the middle doesn't get remembered.
00:20:44.820
Right. But the things on the edge and the things where you either put in a lot of time or a lot
00:20:48.520
of quality or make it a little more unique towards yourself is what gets remembered. So I was thinking
00:20:53.040
about, you know, content and marketing and business. And I was like, you know, I am Jewish. And a lot of
00:20:57.500
people are like, man, how did Jews make so much money? And so I was like, what if I made some videos
00:21:01.580
and experimented with videos about like how Jews make money? Yeah. And I don't know.
00:21:06.480
Do they do well? I just filmed it last night. So we'll, we'll find out soon. My mom is fucking
00:21:11.800
hilarious. So she said, Oh, it's cause we have a, we're born with it. We're, it's genetic.
00:21:16.120
We have this. That's funny. My mom's like, there's a success gene in Jews. I was like,
00:21:20.900
mom, that's, that's not possible. But if it is interesting because, so I've got a financial
00:21:24.800
planning practice that I own and I used to work with a big insurance company out of New York
00:21:28.900
and the top producers, top producers, like, like multimillion dollars producers were always Jewish
00:21:35.860
out of New York or the surrounding areas, which was really interesting.
00:21:40.000
Oh, and why did you think that? So what, what did you think was different about the Jews and the
00:21:42.880
other ones? Uh, the only thing like from an outside perspective that I maybe thought of,
00:21:47.480
and I don't know if this is true or not, is the community that maybe that they're more tight knit or
00:21:52.880
that was the only thing that came to mind for me is that somehow they're tapped into a community.
00:21:58.100
Like, like I tend to be religious and, and within our community, anybody who is LDS, I'm Mormon.
00:22:05.280
We have a tighter knit community for the church. And I think that spills over to other areas of
00:22:10.580
Okay. I can answer my story about business stuff and I can talk about the effort thing, but
00:22:14.160
why are all Mormons rich? Like people talk about the Jews being rich. Like I've never personally,
00:22:21.060
You know why I have, I will tell you there are poor Mormons, but I think to your point,
00:22:27.340
and I think the reason you probably see that is because the culture and the value system
00:22:34.040
naturally produces success, success in business, success in relationships, success with health.
00:22:40.060
And not to say that everybody within the religion is perfect and has it all figured out, but the
00:22:45.680
principles that the gospel teaches, our gospel anyways, uh, translate perfectly to success in
00:22:52.240
That's awesome. I mean, I think that's probably a commonality with Judaism and I think some Asian
00:22:56.840
cultures, it's not to say that there was like, we're better. I'm not saying maybe I hope each
00:23:01.800
person in the religion thinks the religion is great and I'm not a very religious person,
00:23:05.240
but it's like, there's certain elements that I think anyone can take away from that. Like,
00:23:09.380
okay. In Mormonism, like they have a community that where they want to help each other.
00:23:12.160
I don't know if Jews are as tight around that probably a little bit, but there's definitely
00:23:16.060
elements, education, community, you know, sacrifices, shit like that. Like we all have
00:23:20.400
in common that it's helped us succeed. But anyway, so I'm trying out some of the videos
00:23:24.280
with that. Cause yeah, I think to your point, I'm only really speaking to these people and
00:23:28.680
I'm kind of curious, like, all right, there's a, you know, you know, like 15 million Jews,
00:23:31.820
like maybe let me just speak to them for a bit and see how that works. And then if it doesn't
00:23:35.000
work fine, like I'll go back to my Christian friends. No, I'm joking. But it's just worth it.
00:23:40.080
It's just the experiments around that. And to your point about the effort thing,
00:23:44.640
I just think Gary Halbert, why I mentioned him is that he said a great line about it.
00:23:48.320
He said, you can paddle as fast as you want up the wrong river and never get where you want.
00:23:52.860
Yeah. But you can paddle whatever speed you want up the right river and you'll get to the
00:23:56.080
destination. And it's kind of like, I think about the difference between efficiency and
00:24:00.980
effectiveness. Like you can be very efficient paddling up the wrong river, but are you effective
00:24:05.460
getting to the actual tool? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think how quickly do you get out of the river?
00:24:09.860
That's the wrong one and get into a different river. Cause maybe you're just swimming against a
00:24:13.720
temporary current and you just need to overcome that. I think that's generally the biggest
00:24:19.100
differentiator I've known from the people I admire and successful people to my own definition
00:24:23.240
versus others is that everyone, including myself faces shitty days. Yeah. It's like impossible not to.
00:24:29.100
And it's the people that persevere over, you know, through it, not around it, but through it
00:24:34.900
that generally get the things they want. Yeah. That's just the definition of what I've seen.
00:24:39.340
Not even definition. That's just like the reality of what I've seen for myself is that
00:24:42.380
maybe a simple way anyone can think about it. It's doing the things when you don't want to do them
00:24:46.400
is why you're going to become successful. And I think someone said a better quote than that,
00:24:50.120
but it's basically what I've realized. Like the days I don't want to go to the gym are the days I go
00:24:53.800
the days I don't feel like doing some podcast editing or some marketing part or meetings or whatever it is.
00:24:58.640
It's the days I need to do them. That's where you earn it, right?
00:25:01.900
Yeah. You don't earn it when you're just like sitting at home. Like, well, I don't feel like
00:25:04.840
it today. And I think in general, what I've noticed for myself is every time I put in the work
00:25:09.860
and I put in the effort and I put in the sacrifice, that's when I'm most proud of what I accomplish.
00:25:14.040
I've never done something where I just, you know, I kind of half-assed it and it did really well.
00:25:17.600
And I'm like, man, I'm so proud of that. I did so good. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're generally proud
00:25:22.600
of when you work your ass off. Like if you try to do a race, like a 5k or whatever it is,
00:25:26.480
you're like, man, I trained, I worked hard. I finished it. I'm proud of myself.
00:25:29.520
But if you just go and like, you know, I did it and whatever, like I don't think most people
00:25:32.840
would feel that good about it. Gentlemen, just a quick pause to tell you about our exclusive
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00:25:43.640
you all the tools and resources you need to accomplish big things in your life. When I started
00:25:49.480
this journey of becoming a better man, nine years ago, I had no manual, no blueprint for the things
00:25:55.720
that I needed to do and the information that I needed to have. And in many ways, I'm still
00:26:00.560
searching for the best way to do things, but I can tell you that having the roadmap that we've laid
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00:26:11.800
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I invite you to join us inside the iron council. You can find more at order of man.com slash iron
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council. Now let's get back to that conversation with Noah. Okay. So I want to go back. Cause you
00:26:36.160
were talking about doing something different, standing out. We went off on a whole nother
00:26:39.600
tangent about religion, which was good. Cause it's something I don't talk a whole lot about.
00:26:44.120
What's the line between taking that hardline stance and just saying a bunch of shit that you might
00:26:51.080
not even really truly believe to rile people up. Cause I think there's people that believe that
00:26:55.360
that's the way you should approach it. Cause quite honestly, it could actually work.
00:27:00.500
Like if I posted a bunch of pictures of, of me and a bunch of babes and we're drinking beer and
00:27:06.100
shooting guns and it could actually work except for, I don't necessarily agree with that lifestyle.
00:27:12.540
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that would fit LDS.
00:27:15.160
Maybe like, I don't know. Um, I was thinking maybe the original LDS stuff supposedly, um,
00:27:21.020
some history there for sure. Yeah. Uh, I, I think about that. So I'll tell you candidly,
00:27:26.460
like I think about some of these people like Tai Lopez. Yes. Uh, great point. Yep. And I,
00:27:30.720
I posted, I posted, I said, who do people like following? And they're like, Tai Lopez. And I'm
00:27:35.080
like, why? And I kept, I asked people why? And they said, well, cause he's got this crazy
00:27:39.140
lifestyle. He's got all these crazy bitches and he's doing cars and making money. And I
00:27:45.160
I think what I think, and it's appealing to me, not, not all that stuff, but it's appealing
00:27:49.760
the, that, that is what gets attention. Right. And so you have to deal with some reality of
00:27:54.240
what people want to hear, but I think you have to figure out how to do it in your own
00:27:57.580
true, I don't even people say true or authentic. You just have to be yourself in it and be true
00:28:00.860
to yourself. So I think it's kind of like, what are the elements of why that works and how
00:28:05.540
do you do it in a way that works for you? But for me, not, but, and for me, it's saying,
00:28:10.620
well, who do I really want to be in the future? Who is living the life or,
00:28:15.160
acting in the way, you know, you guys have Christ some, and as well, you, I'm sure you
00:28:19.100
have business people. So I think about Jeff Bezos personally. Uh, I don't know him. I
00:28:23.360
don't text him at all. Not yet. Maybe we Snapchat each other, but I don't see him flaunting women
00:28:28.640
or flaunting money or, you know, buying houses and having to show off him on Instagram with
00:28:33.660
a bunch of filters. I see him working and making amazing things that are helping a lot of people.
00:28:38.140
And he seems really excited about it. Yeah. And subsequently people want to know more
00:28:42.020
about what he is and what he's doing. And, and that's what I admire. And so I have to
00:28:45.840
come back and remind myself, like, you know, you have your, we all have our own flavor of
00:28:49.500
a dish. We're all our own unique dish. You know, I think in terms of where I want my dish
00:28:54.520
to go, it's like, it's more on that path versus the people who I think are really rich in life.
00:28:59.580
They don't show off their money. They don't like the rich ones don't have to prove that
00:29:05.080
they're rich. And I think when you work backwards from where you want to be, it makes it kind of
00:29:10.260
easier to say, well, do I want to do that stuff? Not really. That's not really who I am or who I
00:29:15.280
want to be. And so it makes it a little easier to make those decisions. It's really interesting
00:29:19.280
because we live in it. We live in a weird position where you and I are out to get attention,
00:29:26.120
quite honestly. Right. And yet there's this balance with, I don't need attention. I just
00:29:32.300
want to focus on the things that I want, like being able to swim in the pool with my kids or
00:29:37.220
coach their teams where I necessarily wouldn't get that attention. Although on this other side,
00:29:42.200
I'm trying to get attention. That's a weird place to be for sure.
00:29:46.360
Well, so the two things I think about that is that like, what's I think about purpose and purpose is
00:29:50.880
like one of these like quarter life crisis things. I think we're around the same age, but purpose is
00:29:54.140
like, oh, what's my purpose? It's like, I'm not going to go into that because that could take a
00:29:57.480
long time. Yeah. But I think when you're trying to get attention in general, like creating shows or
00:30:01.200
creating products, whatever it is, my main concern lately and my main thought around it, excuse me,
00:30:06.600
is where's the alignment around what you're doing? Meaning, so if you're trying to get a bunch of
00:30:11.000
attention, what, why? Yeah. What's the point of it? Yeah. A lot of them probably tie in some of
00:30:15.460
these guys had really shitty high schools. They were probably made fun of. And now it's like, it's,
00:30:19.040
it's redemption. It's like, oh, well, finally I can prove that I have validation now, right? Yeah. And there's
00:30:24.060
a lot of that. I mean, my parents love me. I have a Jewish mother, a lot of guilt. It was great.
00:30:28.120
You know, I love, I mean, I love my parents in high school. I wasn't the coolest. I wasn't the
00:30:31.500
dorkiest at a good high school experience, a little emo, you know, just standard high school stuff.
00:30:35.020
Yeah. Smoke some cigarettes, the usual shit. And you know, I don't feel the need about that,
00:30:39.680
but I definitely wonder about the attention thing. So that, that's kind of the, the main part I think
00:30:44.100
about, which is just like, how does this help my main purpose? So my purpose is growing Sumo.
00:30:48.660
It's like, we have two products. One, we promote other products. The other one,
00:30:51.400
we give people the tools to promote themselves. And so I have to remind myself, all right, let
00:30:55.440
this attention is to really help that. And when I finally had clarity around that two weeks ago,
00:30:59.840
cause I just kind of think, I'm like, why the fuck do I care if I get more views? Right. Like
00:31:03.200
a thousand people see something versus two, that who fucking cares? Right. I was like, oh, well,
00:31:06.680
earlier about the, the articles on the site. It's like, I don't, I don't know. Like,
00:31:10.360
what does it matter? 200 versus 2000, right? Exactly. But if it aligns up to what your actually goal
00:31:15.220
is, the second thing I would say, man, is, uh, and this is maybe for myself,
00:31:18.620
is that see how it is. So let's say that you want to try to like fake that kind of life and
00:31:24.480
you want to get a lot of attention. Try it out. Go like go a week where you go crazy and you're
00:31:29.480
like, all right, I'm going to post pictures in cars. I'm gonna do all this fake shit. And maybe
00:31:33.280
it's not real. Maybe it is real and see how it goes for you. And then you can make that decision
00:31:37.140
whether that's something you want to continue or not. That's yeah. That's talk about experimentation,
00:31:40.960
right? Well, I think the one 80 strategy is an interesting way to, I kind of call it the test
00:31:45.800
shit out strategy, uh, or one 80 strategy is like go the complete opposite. Try it the fuck out
00:31:50.820
and see how it goes. Yeah. Yeah. I think you can do it on smaller increments. So what I've tried to
00:31:56.220
do now is instead of buying something, that's a house or a car, can I rent it for a week? Can I
00:32:00.660
Airbnb it? Can I use tarot.com? Can I borrow it from a friend? Can I go on some dates instead of just
00:32:05.920
getting married right away? And then you're like, actually, no, I fucking love attention. Can I take one of
00:32:10.480
my, one of my siblings kids for the weekend and see if I really want kids of my own? Right.
00:32:14.840
I actually did that and it sucks. Dude, you guys, it's tough to be a parent, man. Much respect to
00:32:21.340
them. No, I don't know. Like, you know, maybe the thing is the part three, which I don't know. I'm
00:32:28.100
curious for yourself as well as like, if you didn't have to live with, if you could live without
00:32:31.900
apologies, like if you could live this life where there's not apologizing for saying, Hey, you know
00:32:37.080
what? I fucking don't like these people. And Tai Lopez, like, I think he sells snake oil and you
00:32:41.580
say that kind of shit and you're just like, yo, this is who the fuck I am. Some people are going
00:32:44.580
to like it. Some people are not. And I think we have created this culture of over self-deprecation
00:32:50.060
and over hypersensitivity to free speech, to like things that we want to say. And it kind of moves
00:32:56.300
everyone to the middle society. And I would say ultimately society wants us all to be in the
00:33:00.940
middle. It's the safest. Society wants us to stay in line. Of course. I think if we can start all
00:33:05.560
thinking about how do we just not fucking apologize for who we want to be and including
00:33:08.800
myself, I still get self-conscious about stuff. You know, the more that we can just keep not
00:33:12.780
apologizing, it doesn't mean we go be rude, like go out there and be like, yeah, fuck this person
00:33:16.040
and fuck this. Like, I'm not trying to, uh, you know, not about the negativity, but just not
00:33:20.460
apologizing for who you really want to be yourself. Yeah. Uh, I think it would create a really good
00:33:24.060
society and really great discussion and ideas and products and things like that. It's so ingrained
00:33:28.660
in us to be the same as everybody else, whether that's through elementary school. I remember when I joined
00:33:32.600
the military, uh, I had some, some section chiefs and some, some sergeants telling me what I needed
00:33:37.740
to do as I went into basic training and there at the end of the day, their advice was blend in,
00:33:43.640
don't get noticed. And it served me very well in the military. But then I've been thinking about it.
00:33:48.960
I'm like, man, that's like a horrible way to live in civilian life. Like you want to fit in,
00:33:55.200
you want to, and I know why the military would teach that doctrine, but when it comes to your
00:33:59.880
civilian life and you wanting to thrive in your marriage or your business or any element of life,
00:34:04.540
the last thing that you want to do is fit in with everybody else.
00:34:08.780
How have you, how, how do you think the military has affected you running your company?
00:34:12.480
Discipline, hands down discipline. Really? Well, let me back, not back up, but let me add
00:34:17.040
something else to that. It's discipline and playing for keeps. Like I spent, I spent, uh, 2005 and a lot
00:34:23.300
of 2006 in Iraq and all the decisions that I made and all my training and everything else up to that
00:34:28.700
point literally spelled the difference between life and death for me or, or the guys within our
00:34:33.600
unit. And so I see a lot of people taking life, not serious enough. And not that you can't have
00:34:40.660
fun or enjoy it. That's not what I'm talking about. But what I'm saying is like, people aren't serious
00:34:45.120
about their business. They're not serious about the relationship with their kids. They're not serious
00:34:50.260
about their marriage. And so they make all these decisions, whether that's stepping out on their wife
00:34:54.340
or deciding they don't want to work one day. And they make these decisions. Like you're not playing
00:34:59.880
for life and death. You're not playing for keeps. And in my perspective, we are like everything that
00:35:04.800
I do on a daily basis has a, an impact on the way the rest of my life. And even since we're talking
00:35:12.300
about religion, afterlife is going to be as well. So I think it's really important that we play for
00:35:17.460
keeps and that we understand and recognize that the game you're playing right now is serious business
00:35:21.500
and treat it that way. Dude, I love that. So you, you felt like that, that was a big message
00:35:26.980
that you didn't have as much before the military. You know, I don't know if I didn't have it, but it
00:35:31.640
certainly wasn't ingrained in me because I wasn't fighting for life and death. Right. And especially
00:35:35.780
as a child, you know, I joined the military when I was 18 years old as a child, like what responsibilities
00:35:40.160
do you have? You know, my kids need to walk the dog. They need to do some dishes. They need to scoop
00:35:43.900
the poop out of the yard, but like they don't really have any responsibilities. So anything that they do up to
00:35:49.920
this point isn't, there's no really ramifications or repercussions of their negative choices. And
00:35:55.340
we try to teach them that, but until you're in an experience where shit literally hits the fan and
00:36:00.100
somebody could die because of the inability that you have to make the correct decision or the lack
00:36:07.280
of training that you've lived up to this point, it's going to spell that difference. It's going to
00:36:11.440
be hard for you to recognize how serious this game actually is. How was that actually integrating
00:36:16.580
back into society? That was hard, really hard because at the end of the day, like, what are
00:36:21.340
you drinking right now? Uh, this, this one? Yeah. Oh no, the other one. This one? That one. Or this
00:36:28.320
one? The green one or the blue one? No, the one in your left hand there. Oh, it was, it was a cold
00:36:33.600
brew coffee with coconut, unflavored coconut vanilla milk. Okay. So check this out. So this is what was so
00:36:40.880
hard is you get back from Iraq and you see people and their biggest choices in life are like, am I
00:36:47.620
going to use vanilla bean or am I going to use some other flavor in my Frappuccino? And so like, for me,
00:36:53.480
I was like, what the hell? Like, why are people worried about this trivial nonsense? And so it was
00:36:58.120
very, cause I'm literally fighting for life and death. I'm trying to keep other people alive. Like
00:37:02.520
we're doing serious business and I'm back here and people are bickering and worrying about the dumbest
00:37:07.740
shit that has no basis in reality. And so it was very difficult for me to integrate back in.
00:37:13.100
And I think that's where a lot of these veterans have a hard time is coming back and they're like,
00:37:16.940
I'm trying to stay alive. I'm trying to keep people alive. I'm trying to do my job. I'm trying
00:37:20.980
to protect this nation. I'm trying to serve honorably. And now I have to come back and worry
00:37:24.680
about, you know, what shirt to wear, for example. And it just seems really, really trivial and it's
00:37:30.380
hard to get over. Dude, that is such a great message. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a great
00:37:36.420
message. Sometimes we, we, I think we're sweating all this stuff. Oh, it's like, is that really the
00:37:41.380
most important thing? Exactly. Exactly. That's a great point. Cause I think a lot of times what
00:37:45.220
ends up happening is we get so caught up in things that don't really matter. And that might even be a
00:37:50.260
business decision. Like, Oh, should I do this strategy or should I do this Facebook ad or that?
00:37:54.880
I'm like, just do something. Like, I don't, I don't care which one you pick, just pick one and go.
00:38:01.800
And then you can adjust and adapt along the way. But people just get so bogged down in the stuff
00:38:07.420
that just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I completely agree, man. That's,
00:38:11.260
it's hard. It's like, well, what's really important? It's, and then you have to figure
00:38:14.740
that out for yourself. You have to take that time to be like, well, my family's important. My
00:38:17.560
business is important. And in my business, what's even, what are the things I want to spend my time
00:38:21.020
on and what do I not? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm not going to go ahead. Please. No,
00:38:25.380
no, please keep going to say you talked about, I think you've used the term integration. Is that right?
00:38:29.360
Like, did you say integrate where you're trying to integrate the things that you're doing in life?
00:38:33.080
I can't remember the exact term you used. Uh, congruency as well. Yeah. We strive for too.
00:38:37.600
It's like, if you can be congruent in who you are at work and who you are at home and who you are at
00:38:41.460
the office and who you are in the bedroom and who you are when you're showing up to your coaches to
00:38:46.020
coach your kids' games, I think that's where you're going to find the most happiness. And I think
00:38:49.300
that's what you were alluding to earlier is, is being the same person, whether you're in business or
00:38:53.640
your relationship or the community, that's certainly where I found fulfillment in my life.
00:38:57.720
Yeah. Congruity. Congruity. That word. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's important. I think what the
00:39:06.100
story, not I think the story you said earlier really resonates with me where I fucking hate when
00:39:09.740
someone doesn't like their job. Like that truly bothers me because it's very controllable. And I
00:39:14.480
know there's people that are like, man, I'm stuck at Walmart. I, you know, I worked at Office Max.
00:39:18.440
I worked at Macy's. I've worked retail and I've worked not glamorous jobs a lot of years. And that's
00:39:23.120
part, you know, that's part of the grind, but everyone has a ability to take control of their life.
00:39:26.700
And I like when I'm working on things I'm excited about and I have integration and congruity
00:39:32.000
across my personal and my professional life. I think everyone should. Yeah. For me,
00:39:35.980
I know it comes from my mom hating her work as a nurse so much. I've never heard anyone complain
00:39:39.980
so much. Uh, and I love my mom, but it's like, I was like, I don't want, it's like you live one
00:39:43.580
life. Why not at least do the things you want to do or at least do your best to try to get there.
00:39:48.120
I think so many people are worried about, well, how do I make this work? Especially those that have
00:39:52.080
other responsibility, like a family or something like that, where they're like, I need to make
00:39:55.740
this work. I have to, I have to sacrifice. Right. And that's the big word. I have to sacrifice my
00:39:59.840
own wellbeing for my families. And what's really interesting is I hear these guys and they almost
00:40:04.200
assume in a way that these are mutually exclusive. Like your family can't be happy without you being
00:40:10.380
miserable. Like that's, what's taught. I think that's what a lot of people think is a lot of men,
00:40:15.820
especially it's like, you have to be miserable. You have to grind, you have to put in the work.
00:40:19.520
And there's times where you're going to have to do that and sacrifice, but you don't have to be
00:40:23.460
miserable just so your family can be satisfied or fulfilled or have what they need. There's a way
00:40:27.880
to find both. And I think that's the, that's the point of life. Find both.
00:40:32.660
I read this book recently and it hasn't gotten a lot of attention. It's a friend's, a friend helped
00:40:36.780
write the book. It's called I got there. And it's a, this guy, JT McCormick, and it's just basically
00:40:42.440
how he grew up like straight hood, no money, abusive. Dad was gone. Mom was in and out. And you know,
00:40:49.380
he got there and it's just great little, it's a great quick read about, you know, if you want
00:40:53.700
something like, are you putting in the work? Yeah. Maybe that's like, that's the overall
00:40:57.220
message for this. It's one, stop apologizing for being yourself and go put in the work.
00:41:01.800
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. All right, man. We got to wind this down. So yeah, dude. Otherwise I'm
00:41:06.960
going to probably have to come over for dinner. Well, you can do that too. Let's do it. We'll talk
00:41:10.040
about Jewish and Mormonism and we'll talk about the fun stuff, man.
00:41:18.100
Austin, Texas. Okay. Man, I was out there two months ago. It's awesome. I was out to
00:41:23.860
Lake Travis near the Lake Travis area. Yeah. Man, it's beautiful out there.
00:41:28.320
The middle of America is like, you know, it's funny cause I'm from the West coast. I'm from,
00:41:31.440
you know, I worked at these high tech companies. I'm not going to still say high tech anymore.
00:41:34.800
No, I just, I'm like, I work on software programs with CD-ROMs.
00:41:39.560
Puppy discs. Uh, but you know, America is in the middle. Yeah. Like 10% is on the outside,
00:41:47.980
20% the outside. Like, and I think if you're trying to be successful in business, to me,
00:41:51.800
I've noticed that like, man, if you can get Utah and Texans and people buying from these kinds of
00:41:56.320
places, like you're doing well. Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people kind of forget about that.
00:42:00.620
Yeah, it is. They're not these populated areas, but there's a large bulk of actually,
00:42:03.840
I think the American spirit in the middle of the country for sure. So
00:42:06.700
right on, man. All right. So tell everybody how they can connect with you. I know we didn't even
00:42:11.520
like really get into like specifically what you do, but I know I use your tools in the past and
00:42:16.740
guys, like if you're listening to this podcast or whatever it ends up being, however, we're going
00:42:20.780
to put this out in the world. Um, I can tell you, you know, I've, I've used Noah's programs and apps
00:42:26.220
and they've helped me grow this to where it is today. So I got to tell you, I appreciate you guys
00:42:30.020
connect with you. Thanks man. Only the guys. Cause we only have guys listening. That's right.
00:42:34.080
Or if there's women listening, then you can use them too, I guess. Yeah. Or tell your husband to
00:42:39.620
use them. Women are a lot of times better than men in a lot of things. I'm like making babies
00:42:43.580
their way. There's a reason God gave them the responsibility. I truly, I'm like, we would
00:42:47.700
totally fuck that one up. We'd be like, Oh, you know, playing with our stomachs. I'd be like
00:42:50.640
playing drums on yours too long. And I fucked that up. Anyways, if the men listening to this only knew
00:42:56.680
how many decisions order of man go through my wife, they would, might be disappointed
00:43:02.680
in me. Well, I think that that's actually probably how it is too. It's given, it's also given props
00:43:07.680
to the, you know, supportive people in our lives. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Uh, yeah. The
00:43:11.340
short, uh, I help run two companies. If you're looking for products to grow your business app,
00:43:15.360
sumo.com it's a group on for geeks. And then we, all the tools we use to grow app sumo, uh, are
00:43:20.960
now sumo.com. So it's email free tools to grow your email list. And then I have, if people want
00:43:26.060
to hear more of my voice, like my nasally Jew voice, which I've actually kind of like it.
00:43:30.260
I kind of like my voice. It's growing on me. Thanks dude. Uh, I don't know when we started,
00:43:34.480
I'm like, I don't know, but now I feel pretty good. Oh man, I could do a whole episode to you
00:43:38.020
talking to you about, uh, you know, the real, the lessons learned about starting a podcast.
00:43:41.580
But yeah, so I know a Kagan presents a podcast and no Kagan on YouTube or two things I've been
00:43:45.960
experimenting, chatting with people like yourself and shit. Like after this conversation, I'm like,
00:43:49.500
start thinking about different stories and then put that kind of stuff out there.
00:43:52.540
Right on, man. I'll link it all up so the guys can check it out, but guys go check out his work.
00:43:56.060
You will not be disappointed. Thank you very much. It was fun.
00:44:00.020
There it is guys. You got to be a fly on the wall with my friend, Noah Kagan and I talking about
00:44:04.060
marketing yourself a bit more effectively. Do yourself a favor though. Go follow him,
00:44:08.240
learn everything that you can from him. You will be glad that you did. And in the meantime,
00:44:12.580
make sure you do two things right now. First, join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups
00:44:18.340
slash order of man. And then second, make sure you take a look at our exclusive brotherhood,
00:44:22.740
the iron council, whether you join or not is up to you, but I'd have you,
00:44:26.060
at least take a look at it, learn more about what we're up to and find out what the other 320 men
00:44:31.140
inside of the iron council and that brotherhood are up to and how they're improving their lives on a
00:44:36.200
large scale. Also guys, keep an eye out for future order man meetups, some very cool new
00:44:41.480
resources that are going to be available in the next few weeks. And the last thing I asked this
00:44:46.160
last week as well, if you would, please take a minute and leave us an iTunes rating and review.
00:44:51.760
We read all of those. And of course they go a long way in growing and spreading the message
00:44:56.640
of the order of men. I will look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field
00:45:01.140
notes, but until then take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening
00:45:06.700
to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you
00:45:11.720
were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.