Order of Man - 132： Decoding and Deciphering Human Behavior ｜ Chase Hughes

00:00:00.000 Someone asked me several weeks ago, if you could have one superpower, what would that

00:00:03.520 superpower be?

00:00:04.440 To which I responded, the ability to read people's minds.

00:00:08.100 As it turns out, one doesn't need to be a superhero in order to possess the ability

00:00:12.300 to understand what other people are thinking and to a degree, use that knowledge to produce

00:00:17.600 desired outcomes.

00:00:18.980 My guest today, the founder of Ellipsis Behavior Laboratories and the author of the Ellipsis

00:00:23.820 Manual, Chase Hughes, joins me to talk about reading body language and thoughts, becoming

00:00:28.300 a human lie detector, how to activate trust in others, and how to decode and decipher human

00:00:34.240 behavior.

00:00:35.140 You're a man of action.

00:00:36.660 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:38.100 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:41.040 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:45.480 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:50.560 This is your life.

00:00:51.640 This is who you are.

00:00:53.080 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:00:55.660 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:00.120 And what is going on today?

00:01:01.460 My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order

00:01:05.540 of Man.

00:01:06.220 I have a great show for you lined up today.

00:01:08.440 It's becoming a pattern that I just continue to say I have a great show lined up for you.

00:01:12.400 We just have some amazing guests, so take it for what it is.

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00:01:19.760 and elite and talented men on the planet.

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00:01:46.360 As a side note, one of the things I don't mention guys a whole lot, and then we will get into

00:01:50.120 the show here is that we have a store, The Order of Man store.

00:01:53.920 It's really been picking up over the past couple of months, so I thought I ought to share

00:01:57.300 the details with you just in case you don't already know about it.

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00:02:12.220 So make sure you go ahead and check that out by going to store.orderofman.com.

00:02:17.680 Again, that's store.orderofman.com.

00:02:19.940 I do want to get right into the show today because I am so excited about our guest and

00:02:24.120 the topic that we're going to cover.

00:02:25.800 I personally use a lot of what he talks about in my own life.

00:02:29.480 I'm interviewing Chase Hughes.

00:02:30.940 He is a Navy veteran.

00:02:32.840 He's also an author and speaker on behavioral analysis and body language and behavior engineering.

00:02:38.120 He founded Ellipsis Behavior Laboratories in 2011 and has since developed the Behavioral

00:02:44.140 Table of Elements, which after pouring over this for some time now, knowing that we were

00:02:48.040 going to have a conversation, this is probably the most extensive behavioral analysis tool

00:02:53.360 that I have ever seen.

00:02:55.360 He is also the creator of other systems like the Hostile Hospital and Tactical Psychology.

00:03:00.740 And if that's not enough, Chase is also in the process of developing new programs for

00:03:05.440 the U.S. government.

00:03:06.780 He volunteers his skills by training members of anti-human trafficking teams, which we will be

00:03:12.100 talking about in the coming weeks and months around the world.

00:03:15.060 He's published two books on human behavior and over 29 articles now and papers on behavior

00:03:21.020 and behavior analysis.

00:03:22.460 Today, he is here to talk about the concepts from his new book, The Ellipsis Manual, Analysis

00:03:27.660 and Engineering of Human Behavior.

00:03:31.640 Chase, thanks for joining me today.

00:03:33.480 Ryan, what's up, man?

00:03:34.260 It's good to be here.

00:03:35.020 Yeah, I know we've been talking for a while and I've read through some of your work.

00:03:38.560 It's well-researched and like we talked about a minute ago, pretty dense.

00:03:41.980 So getting through all of it can be a challenge in and of itself, but definitely worth it.

00:03:46.900 You've developed essentially a workbook or a guide for, and correct me if I'm wrong, interrogation

00:03:54.380 and lie detection is the way that I read it.

00:03:56.340 Is that the best way to describe it or would you describe it differently?

00:04:00.540 Pretty much.

00:04:01.240 I think the first half of the book is kind of dedicated to that.

00:04:04.080 And the second half is dedicated to producing compliant behavior in people.

00:04:10.460 So the question then is, because these are operative type strategies, this is CIA type

00:04:17.680 strategies that we're talking about here.

00:04:19.360 I guess the question then lends itself to how does this apply to the quote unquote real

00:04:24.420 world where it might be applicable to somebody who may not be in one of these organizations

00:04:28.040 or branch of the military, for example.

00:04:31.200 Absolutely.

00:04:31.660 The techniques in the book might be at an advanced level, and we kind of use that as

00:04:37.420 an example.

00:04:38.620 But those techniques are in no way some kind of field or trade craft that specifically

00:04:44.200 applies to an intelligence community or an interrogation scenario.

00:04:48.260 You could use them to get out of a speeding ticket or talk your way into a new job.

00:04:53.360 Yeah.

00:04:53.640 And so obviously we talk a lot about influence and behavior.

00:04:57.860 You even talk about profiling in the book and the information itself.

00:05:01.040 So how applicable or how reasonable is some of this stuff?

00:05:06.000 Because when I read, for example, body language, and we can maybe start the conversation there.

00:05:10.800 For me, it's really hard to determine if somebody's really signaling something or they may be giving

00:05:18.480 you a false indicator, for lack of a better term.

00:05:22.000 How realistic is this?

00:05:23.760 Because my background is sales.

00:05:25.740 And so as I was growing up in sales and we had the body language experts come in, they'd

00:05:29.560 say, well, if your client does this, they mean this.

00:05:31.420 And if you do this, they mean this.

00:05:32.560 And it's like, eh, there might be something completely different.

00:05:34.840 How applicable is this really?

00:05:36.420 Right.

00:05:36.980 And that's the problem, I think, with a lot of the articles and stuff that you see on

00:05:41.020 LinkedIn or anywhere on the internet, that it's one thing equals one thing.

00:05:46.060 Sure.

00:05:46.740 Where that's almost never the case.

00:05:48.340 There's a few exceptions with facial expressions, for example.

00:05:52.480 But when you start to combine those and you want to definitely look at a group of gestures

00:05:58.860 instead of one gesture, if you have a chance to.

00:06:02.120 And instead of making an estimation on one gesture, you're taking it into context of what's

00:06:06.780 being said, what's going on in the background, and how many other gestures match or correlate

00:06:12.900 with what you're seeing.

00:06:14.000 So it sounds kind of complex, but over the course of a few weeks of just studying this

00:06:19.200 stuff, a lot of our students get really good at spotting the emotions that are going on

00:06:24.860 and how receptive or how blocked off somebody is to what's going on in front of them.

00:06:31.000 I'm sure that you're familiar with Patrick Van Horn and his work with Left of Bang.

00:06:35.120 Are you familiar with his work?

00:06:36.540 Vaguely, yes.

00:06:37.260 Okay.

00:06:37.540 The reason I bring it up is because he talks about something that you're talking about now,

00:06:40.980 and I think the term that he uses, if I remember correctly, is clustering the way people are

00:06:46.140 behaving.

00:06:46.820 So if you take one indicator, for example, like somebody crossing their arms, that's not

00:06:50.900 a great indicator.

00:06:51.680 But if you combine that with, let's say, rolling your eyes, then that paints an entirely different

00:06:56.000 picture than just one isolated gesture alone.

00:06:59.080 Absolutely.

00:06:59.820 So yeah, the crossed arms thing, instead of the eye rolling, if someone was trying to hide

00:07:04.040 it, you would usually see tight lips or someone squeezing their lips together a little bit,

00:07:08.440 which signals withheld opinions most of the time.

00:07:11.640 But as far as the crossed arms go by themselves, what if it's 45 degrees outside?

00:07:16.120 The person might just be cold.

00:07:17.520 Right.

00:07:18.520 Which talks about the baseline that you recommend that we establish as well, it sounds like.

00:07:23.740 Yes.

00:07:24.080 So a lot of people have repetitive behaviors that they do all the time.

00:07:28.060 And those behaviors can usually just be negated when you're talking to a person.

00:07:32.820 So if someone taps their foot all the time, that's irrelevant during the conversation.

00:07:37.980 That's just one of their natural habits.

00:07:39.940 How do you establish a baseline in somebody you just meet?

00:07:42.240 Let's say you walk into a new company for a job interview and you're going to be meeting

00:07:45.940 with the HR department or manager.

00:07:48.080 He's hiring you.

00:07:48.900 She's hiring you, whatever it may be.

00:07:50.700 How do you determine a baseline on that individual you've never met before?

00:07:54.060 That's a fantastic question that we usually address in training.

00:07:56.960 And that if you have a very limited amount of time, the best option you have is to completely

00:08:02.960 decide not to establish a baseline whatsoever and read what you can and look for clusters.

00:08:09.840 So this leads me to the question that I was really interested in asking because how much

00:08:14.660 of this is inherently just understood because we intuitively can read people as human beings

00:08:20.400 and how much of this actually needs to be learned?

00:08:22.880 Like I know, for example, when my wife is pissed off. 1.00

00:08:26.320 Now, that might be because I've been with her for 15 years or it might just be because

00:08:29.660 I'm a human being and I've been designed and programmed to understand when somebody's

00:08:33.200 pissed.

00:08:34.040 I think it really comes into practice.

00:08:36.000 And I think a lot of us, especially women, have a lot of intuition when it comes to reading

00:08:41.840 nonverbal cues, eye movements and face movements.

00:08:44.940 There's a lot of unconscious competence when it comes to that.

00:08:49.760 But when you want to get to the advanced levels and see exactly what's going on and take

00:08:54.240 it into a process to where you can see how receptive someone is in the moment to what's

00:08:59.020 being said, that's when you start to see through the social masks.

00:09:04.460 So I think one thing you'll learn is that we're all suffering so much.

00:09:08.660 The one thing you're going to start to see when you start profiling behavior is how much

00:09:12.380 suffering is around you.

00:09:14.640 Everybody's suffering and that seeing the way someone hides their suffering is usually

00:09:21.220 the most powerful and revealing piece of information you can get about a person.

00:09:26.460 And I think in the book you talk about using human needs and you actually go through those

00:09:31.260 basic human needs and then the weaknesses that are associated with them.

00:09:34.560 Is that what you're referring to now?

00:09:35.960 Uh, no, I was, I was referring to when you can see the body language of someone trying

00:09:41.900 to hide a feeling of insignificance or insecurity and you can see those tiny gestures.

00:09:47.740 For instance, if you mentioned, uh, this guy's really rich and the person showed a tiny little

00:09:53.800 insecurity gesture, you can know that that person has a little bit of insecurity around

00:09:57.760 money.

00:09:58.460 So what do you do that?

00:09:59.640 Let's just use that context.

00:10:01.140 What would you do in that situation?

00:10:03.020 Would you reframe the way you're talking about money?

00:10:05.240 Uh, would you avoid the conversation altogether?

00:10:07.580 I'm sure it's context based, but generally speaking, how do you then use this information?

00:10:12.660 The information can be used in a whole lot of different ways.

00:10:15.380 So if you wanted to make the person feel a little more insecure while you were talking

00:10:19.760 about money, you could make like accidental foot contact under the table to ramp up their

00:10:24.520 insecurity.

00:10:25.520 Or you could talk about a program you watched the other day on how, when people finally let

00:10:29.840 go of those feelings, they start to live a better life.

00:10:33.000 And you can see that person just kind of relax a little bit.

00:10:35.980 So I guess it's based on the outcome that you're trying to produce, correct?

00:10:39.980 Yes, absolutely.

00:10:41.440 So it's really interesting because as I was reading this manual, you had a disclaimer in

00:10:45.420 there that basically talks about the ethics behind using the information that you talk about.

00:10:50.680 Can you walk me through some of the ethic type responsibilities that we have when we are

00:10:55.200 privy to this type of information?

00:10:56.560 I think most people are going to use this for sales or maybe some slight influence.

00:11:01.640 But towards the end of the book, I, with a lot of research, including research from Dr.

00:11:06.800 George Estabrooks, we revealed and kind of reconstructed the process to create a Manchurian

00:11:13.960 candidate, which is inherently dangerous, I guess, if you would want to program someone to do

00:11:19.500 something.

00:11:20.120 Sure.

00:11:20.260 And I think you have that sense of responsibility.

00:11:24.320 I would suggest that no one does it.

00:11:26.800 You have a sense of responsibility that you assume that's called loco parentis, or you assume

00:11:31.200 full custody and control of that person that means you're responsible for what they do.

00:11:36.160 And you should ethically be responsible for what they do.

00:11:39.140 So my original intent was to design that Manchurian candidate programming into something that had

00:11:46.460 a therapeutic aspect to it.

00:11:48.180 And I think you even got into the idea of hypnosis, correct?

00:11:52.680 Yes.

00:11:52.960 There's a lot of hypnosis.

00:11:54.160 Maybe like 15% of the ellipsis manual discusses or kind of talks around or about hypnosis.

00:12:00.480 Yes.

00:12:01.220 So how feasible then is it to create in your terminology, this Manchurian candidate or even

00:12:07.400 somebody who is impacted by what you're doing and what you're saying in a significant degree?

00:12:14.740 I know that I can be influential with, for example, the people listening to this podcast

00:12:19.160 or somebody who might be in our Facebook group or one of our masterminds, but how much can

00:12:24.240 somebody really be influenced to do things maybe they wouldn't even do on their own?

00:12:29.000 I think probably the degree of influence is really going to depend on the person that's

00:12:36.020 performing the influence.

00:12:38.740 The operator is what we call them in the book.

00:12:42.120 And that amount of authority that they have over the person and the suggestibility of the

00:12:47.880 person that's being operated on, the subject, plays a tremendous role.

00:12:52.600 So you see all these studies about hypnotizability and suggestibility.

00:12:56.500 It's all done in a laboratory setting, reading off of a piece of paper, the same script with

00:13:02.200 the same environment.

00:13:03.120 None of these doctors know anything about profiling or body language.

00:13:07.500 They don't customize or tailor anything that they're saying to meet the needs or the insecurities

00:13:13.040 of the person that they're talking to.

00:13:15.140 And I think the outcome is dependent on the skill level of the operator.

00:13:20.060 And just understanding the terms and everything that you've gone through in the programming that's

00:13:23.660 gone into what you're talking about in the ellipsis manual.

00:13:26.520 Sure.

00:13:27.680 And if you followed it word for word, if you took the Manchurian Candidate script that's

00:13:32.780 in the book and you took that word for word, there's hours of what we call entrainment,

00:13:37.680 which develops a hyper-suggestibility in a person to you only.

00:13:43.020 It doesn't make them hyper-suggestible to commercials or whatever, just to you and your voice.

00:13:48.260 And I imagine this takes a lot of time and probably some advanced techniques when you

00:13:55.180 think of, for example, and I'm not suggesting this necessarily, but you hear the term waterboarding,

00:13:59.700 for example.

00:14:00.360 So interrogation techniques that probably cross the line of ethical and unethical.

00:14:06.880 Yes.

00:14:07.280 And there's no techniques in the book that are unethical or hurt another person.

00:14:11.740 I'm a firm believer in the phrase, we rise by lifting others.

00:14:15.320 And I really wanted to create something there.

00:14:18.600 And aside from all the dangerous stuff, I think it's like creating any weapon.

00:14:23.240 99% of the people are going to use it for good.

00:14:26.280 And there's always going to be some crazy dude who's going to use it for violence or

00:14:30.380 to hurt another person. 0.85

00:14:31.640 Of course.

00:14:32.100 Of course.

00:14:32.720 Yeah.

00:14:32.840 There's always that select few who would go that route with it.

00:14:35.980 So then I'm curious about the line between ethical and unethical, not necessarily outcomes,

00:14:41.740 but the motives.

00:14:42.800 How does somebody use the information we're going to talk about throughout the rest of

00:14:45.680 this show in an ethical manner?

00:14:48.400 If you're using it to build someone up, then I think you're on the right side of the road.

00:14:53.580 Simple as that.

00:14:54.160 I think a lot of people have ulterior motives or you make someone do something that they

00:14:58.020 normally wouldn't do, or you make someone do something that might not be in their best

00:15:01.360 interest.

00:15:02.540 That's where you start getting into that gray area.

00:15:04.620 So let's talk then specifically maybe about some of the greatest indicators that you would

00:15:10.940 see in people that would indicate maybe they haven't quite developed a sense of trust in

00:15:17.920 you.

00:15:18.100 Because I think at the end of the day, that's what the guys listening to this podcast are

00:15:21.300 going to want to hear, right?

00:15:22.680 They're going to want to learn how to be more influential in people's eyes.

00:15:26.840 So what are some techniques that we might be able to incorporate to do that?

00:15:31.060 And then part two of that question is, how do we recognize when somebody is receptive

00:15:36.520 to our influence and is not receptive to our influence?

00:15:39.280 Awesome.

00:15:40.040 I divided every single behavior gesture into four categories, and those are closed, open,

00:15:45.720 unsure, and aggressive.

00:15:46.720 So every single body language movement you'll read about in a book is one of those four.

00:15:54.080 And in the behavioral table of elements that I invented or created a few years ago that

00:15:59.720 we use to profile interrogations and whether or not people were being honest or dishonest

00:16:04.860 has all of that stuff.

00:16:06.380 It looks like the periodic table.

00:16:08.260 And instead of going through some giant list and listing all of those, I'll give that to

00:16:12.300 you guys.

00:16:12.700 I'll give you an HD version of that for your listeners to download if you want.

00:16:17.760 And I would say, if you want to spot, I think what you're asking is openness or maybe some

00:16:23.480 receptivity to what you're talking about.

00:16:26.240 You want to look for those gestures on the behavioral table that are listed as open gestures.

00:16:30.940 These are when people expose their neck or their palms and when someone's crossing their

00:16:36.040 legs, which is kind of counterintuitive, but that usually indicates they're more receptive.

00:16:40.040 Why is that?

00:16:40.580 Because you're right, that is counterintuitive and it goes against what I would think and

00:16:44.760 what I've heard.

00:16:45.980 Right.

00:16:46.320 Crossing the legs usually indicates that someone's comfortable.

00:16:49.520 And I know some of the magazines and a lot of the articles that are out there on the internet

00:16:53.820 say that anytime something is closing or coming together, especially when it's protecting the

00:16:58.920 genitals, means that someone is closed off. 1.00

00:17:01.560 What you're saying then in that case is not that they're closing off, but that they're actually

00:17:05.920 relaxing and becoming more comfortable.

00:17:07.460 Maybe not as rigid as they normally would be in a new environment.

00:17:09.860 Yes.

00:17:10.580 When people cross their legs, they're usually indicating that they're more comfortable in

00:17:14.840 that environment.

00:17:15.580 And if you see a group of people that are crossing their legs and someone that they don't like

00:17:19.420 or that they don't trust comes into that group, and this has been proven by Barbara and

00:17:25.160 Alan Peay's research and Desmond Morris' research, that they will uncross their legs when a person

00:17:31.480 they don't like comes into the group.

00:17:32.840 This actually makes sense now that you say this, because if it were me, I'm just thinking

00:17:36.940 about if it were up to me and this was me in this situation, if there was a man that

00:17:41.740 was approaching me and or my family or people I cared about, I would become uncomfortable

00:17:47.020 very quickly, uncross my legs in order to react quicker than I would be able to had my

00:17:52.260 legs been crossed.

00:17:53.420 Yes.

00:17:54.140 Yeah.

00:17:54.320 That makes a lot of sense.

00:17:55.200 Yeah, I get that.

00:17:55.820 Okay.

00:17:55.980 Keep going with the trust.

00:17:57.460 I kind of interrupted you and went off on the tangent, but receptiveness to your influence.

00:18:01.660 So when you spot that receptiveness and when a person is being open, that's the best time

00:18:06.640 to have that conversation.

00:18:07.640 I think that's what you're getting at, Ryan.

00:18:09.740 And that is one of the sales tactics that we teach at our seminars is anytime you give

00:18:15.740 someone a compliment, it should be right after a subject or a person you're talking to exposes

00:18:21.160 their palms.

00:18:21.840 So anytime during a conversation, you see someone expose their palms, they're exposing

00:18:27.660 a little bit of vulnerability.

00:18:28.820 They're showing some vulnerability and you want to compliment them right then to kind

00:18:33.880 of reward them for that vulnerability.

00:18:36.340 What would a compliment look like?

00:18:37.540 Because you're not going to say, I see that you've opened your hands and you're more receptive

00:18:40.840 to my influence now.

00:18:41.880 So what would that actually look like?

00:18:43.780 I would say you're not going to compliment the movement of their hands at all.

00:18:46.660 Right, right.

00:18:47.540 I would say one of the top things you could try to say to people, and this is one of the

00:18:51.820 the most, the greatest compliments you can give.

00:18:54.580 And it's really effective, especially when you mean it.

00:18:58.200 And I would encourage you not to say it unless you guys mean it, but complimenting someone

00:19:02.640 on how genuine they are by saying something like, it's really rare to meet someone who

00:19:07.720 is completely just open and totally authentic.

00:19:10.940 And it's just really refreshing talking to you.

00:19:14.100 Yeah.

00:19:14.580 And I imagine if you don't genuinely mean that, then somebody is going to be able to spot

00:19:19.440 that the same way you would be able to spot some of their behaviors and the things that

00:19:22.960 are coming out of their mouth.

00:19:24.480 Maybe.

00:19:25.100 And I think one of the errors that we all make when we learn behavior and we learn body 0.99

00:19:29.740 language, especially me when I was like some 24 year old idiot kid, you know, learning 0.99

00:19:35.220 this stuff. 0.99

00:19:35.760 I thought everyone else had the same knowledge that I did.

00:19:40.660 Mm hmm. 0.92

00:19:41.300 And like I would make a mistake and I'd be like, oh, crap, they're going to notice. 0.79

00:19:45.480 Like they're going to see through everything I'm doing.

00:19:47.740 Sure.

00:19:48.080 And it's 90 percent of the time the people you're talking to don't study behavior.

00:19:52.400 They don't study body language.

00:19:53.520 So they're kind of behind.

00:19:55.240 Well, I know even just a small example of that.

00:19:57.680 I was I was on stage this last weekend and as I was presenting, I lost my cue a little

00:20:03.760 bit and kind of lost where I was.

00:20:05.440 And I thought, oh, man, they're going to notice this.

00:20:07.400 But I got in my head.

00:20:08.200 I'm like, no, they're not going to notice it.

00:20:09.740 The only one that notices or knows that you're off right now is you because you're the one

00:20:13.560 doing the planning and have thought about this.

00:20:15.600 They have no idea what's going on right now.

00:20:18.040 That's true.

00:20:18.680 Very true.

00:20:19.840 And I think we overestimate how much people can read in our own bodies in general, not even

00:20:25.340 when we mess up.

00:20:26.200 Just when we're sitting there having a conversation, I think we overestimate how much nervousness

00:20:31.240 other people can see.

00:20:33.160 Well, and I imagine, too, if you're in your own head that way where you're thinking about

00:20:37.540 what they might or might not be thinking about, you're probably not actively engaged in what

00:20:42.900 you should be doing, which is trying to analyze their behavior.

00:20:46.340 Yes.

00:20:47.080 And that's why I think everybody should make it a point to discover a fact about a stranger

00:20:54.240 every single day.

00:20:56.300 Just a simple something unique about them or how does that what does that look like?

00:21:01.020 So you ask the barista whether or not she grew up here or how many free coffee she gives

00:21:06.480 away every day or whether or not she likes working there.

00:21:09.760 And is this just an exercise in trying to find that information out or what is the purpose

00:21:14.380 of doing that?

00:21:14.920 I would say the exercise would be to get out of your head and that would help you with

00:21:19.720 what we were just talking about, with that feeling that other people can see what's going

00:21:24.520 on in your head.

00:21:25.380 And I know that this is true even as we're doing this podcast and not so much anymore.

00:21:30.860 But as I started podcasting two and a half, almost three years ago, I remember writing

00:21:36.060 down and thinking to myself, OK, what do I need to say next?

00:21:39.200 And what's the next question?

00:21:40.340 What's the order of this conversation versus the type of conversation we're having now is

00:21:44.400 me actually listening to what you're saying and then responding based on whatever your

00:21:49.600 answer might be?

00:21:50.900 Yeah, I remember I had a wallet card when I was like 20 years old with like conversation

00:21:56.140 starters on it.

00:21:57.100 Oh, yeah.

00:21:57.700 Carry that around.

00:21:59.400 Which is that I mean, is that something that somebody should even consider doing?

00:22:03.080 Because I know there's a lot of guys who listen to this who feel a little bit more

00:22:07.560 reserved, closed off and not so open to maybe meeting new people and putting themselves out

00:22:13.800 there.

00:22:14.980 Absolutely.

00:22:15.660 I would say that no one should think that they're above that.

00:22:18.800 And it was a great way for me to start because it got me out of my head.

00:22:22.440 It got me out from behind my eyes, which is where I lived a lot of times in conversation.

00:22:27.100 Yeah.

00:22:27.640 And I like that you say this is a great place to start.

00:22:30.120 This is not the ending place, right?

00:22:32.080 You shouldn't have to do this for the next two decades.

00:22:34.520 You should just be doing it until you're comfortable without that cue card or outline of a podcast

00:22:39.720 conversation in the context we're talking about here.

00:22:42.040 Right, right.

00:22:45.140 Men, just a quick break for a word from our sponsor and exclusive brotherhood that you

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00:23:51.780 And separate from the conversation of the softest underwear that you will ever own,

00:23:56.760 I want to tell you about a concept I experienced the other day as I was driving down the road.

00:24:01.160 I looked down for just a minute.

00:24:02.780 We've all done it to pick something up that I had dropped.

00:24:05.260 And when I looked up, I realized that my truck had drifted to the left side of the road.

00:24:10.160 Fortunately, I didn't hit anything, but it was an interesting experience that I think all

00:24:14.260 of us deal with, not just when we're driving, but in life.

00:24:16.580 If you've ever caught yourself saying, or thinking that there's got to be more to the

00:24:20.700 life than this, or how did I end up here?

00:24:23.280 Or I thought it would be different than this.

00:24:26.380 You probably experienced the quote unquote drift of life.

00:24:29.980 And in order to combat that, you need three things, three things, clarity, accountability,

00:24:35.000 and a course of action.

00:24:37.080 And interestingly enough, all three of those elements can be found inside of our exclusive

00:24:41.260 brotherhood, the iron council.

00:24:42.660 This is exactly why I created the iron council to help you get clear, to hold your feet to

00:24:48.640 the fire and to give you a track to run on.

00:24:51.540 So that said, I want to invite you to learn more and join us inside of the exclusive brotherhood,

00:24:56.960 the iron council and overcome that drift that you're likely experiencing in your life.

00:25:01.320 Head to order of man.com slash iron council to learn more and to claim your seat at the table.

00:25:07.060 Now, with that said, guys, let's get back to my conversation with chase Hughes.

00:25:12.660 When you talk about activating trust, which is a term that you use, how do you then activate

00:25:17.740 that trust?

00:25:18.620 Because when I hear the word activate, to me, it's like you're turning on that trust.

00:25:23.380 So there's something that you're doing with or to maybe another person or in order to garner

00:25:28.020 more trust from them.

00:25:29.460 The trust activation sequence could probably be a whole nother podcast.

00:25:34.400 And so if we had to make, and maybe we'll do part two of this, but if we had to give a

00:25:39.540 30,000 foot view, what would that look like?

00:25:41.740 If we were to give a 30,000 foot view, the activation of trust would look like you are

00:25:47.700 using all of the body language tricks or the body language mechanics to your advantage to

00:25:54.460 where the other person is building trust throughout the conversation.

00:25:57.120 And you're talking about trust while gesturing towards yourself throughout the conversation.

00:26:02.240 And you're doing several other things to make sure that you have that rapport.

00:26:07.200 You make sure the person is interested in what's going on with you.

00:26:11.120 And especially if it's a woman, I know a lot of your listeners are men.

00:26:15.600 The number one signal that they want to look for to confirm that there is interest there

00:26:21.200 is as soon as they look away from the woman, you will see hygienic gestures.

00:26:27.060 What do you mean by that?

00:26:29.100 That would be a girl licking her lips, adjusting her clothing, putting her hair back behind her 1.00

00:26:34.220 ears, sitting up straighter, any kind of gesture designed to improve her appearance.

00:26:39.920 Because the opposite would be indifference, correct?

00:26:43.000 Yes.

00:26:43.560 So that's when you look away, she'll make those adjustments.

00:26:46.980 So you're deliberately looking away to allow her the space to do that?

00:26:50.560 Is that what you're saying?

00:26:51.620 Yes.

00:26:52.400 And that's the same way you get someone to start following your behavior that you won't

00:26:56.400 see on the internet and you won't see in books.

00:26:58.420 Like if everyone studied matching and mirroring.

00:27:01.360 Mirroring, yes.

00:27:02.200 I've heard that a lot.

00:27:03.140 All the time I hear that.

00:27:04.780 Yes.

00:27:05.260 And it's kind of overdone, I think, a lot.

00:27:09.140 And I think there's only a few key concepts you need.

00:27:12.220 But to get someone to really mirror you and to get started mirroring you, it's hard to

00:27:17.560 get them started while you're looking at them.

00:27:19.420 Because think of the last time you were at a dinner table or at a restaurant with somebody

00:27:23.980 and they realized their posture was bad, but they sat up really straight right in front

00:27:28.440 of you and you had that urge to sit up straight yourself and be like, oh, my posture is not

00:27:32.460 very good either.

00:27:33.280 But I'm not going to sit up straight because they just did it and they're going to think

00:27:35.880 I'm copying them.

00:27:37.840 Like you go into your head and say, well, I'm not going to do this.

00:27:41.300 So the best thing to do to get someone to start copying your gestures is make the movement.

00:27:47.280 So do that sitting up straight thing to increase your posture and then look away to give them

00:27:52.380 that social gap, that little permission to do it without you looking.

00:27:57.240 How do you do that in a way that because the one thing that I seem to be worried about,

00:28:01.600 especially as I'm busy, let's say I'm at a conference or I just got done with presenting

00:28:05.840 on stage and I've got people that want to engage with me, but I've got other people that

00:28:10.980 are lining up to talk.

00:28:11.940 Like, how do you do this in a way that's respectful, but giving that person full attention,

00:28:17.080 but then also letting them know maybe it's non-verbally that there's other people I need

00:28:21.940 to talk with as well.

00:28:24.120 Any suggestions for that?

00:28:25.900 That was a long question.

00:28:27.020 So you wanted to know how to let the person like end the conversation quickly because I

00:28:31.740 know the exact feeling that you're talking about.

00:28:34.080 Yes, quickly and respectfully.

00:28:35.960 Yes.

00:28:36.260 So like right at the end of the seminar where there's 10 people kind of waiting in a weird

00:28:39.840 S-shaped line to talk to you.

00:28:41.740 Right, exactly.

00:28:42.940 The thing that I do myself, I've never planned out a method for this, surprisingly, is that

00:28:48.360 while I'm talking to the other person, I'll usually lean back and point at one person,

00:28:53.360 even if they're not looking at me.

00:28:55.160 And that gives that other person an indicator that you recognize there's other people and

00:28:59.620 maybe they'll recognize there's other people as well.

00:29:01.920 Yes.

00:29:02.460 And that's just what I do.

00:29:03.900 Yeah, I like that.

00:29:04.560 I'm going to try that.

00:29:05.160 That actually makes a lot of sense.

00:29:06.540 Okay, so I want to jump back because we skimmed over something that I think is important and

00:29:10.760 that was a main point in the book from what I saw and that is human needs and understanding

00:29:17.300 that all humans, and this is psychology, so that all humans have a base level of needs

00:29:21.880 and then we can use those needs as a way to fulfill what it is they want and in turn get

00:29:27.440 what it is we want.

00:29:28.840 Can you walk me through some of the human needs that people have that we need to latch on to?

00:29:33.340 Absolutely.

00:29:33.700 I think that the needs that we identified in the book, there's seven core needs and there's

00:29:38.780 17 needs on the first needs map that we trained to that was designed for government.

00:29:44.620 Those needs that we identified are in no way an academic study on human needs.

00:29:51.000 We listed them there because those needs drive most of human behavior and those needs are the

00:29:57.820 easiest to turn into a lever to start causing behavior instead of just observing it.

00:30:03.980 Sure.

00:30:04.680 So once you can profile a need, so let's say someone seeks appreciation.

00:30:09.740 A person that has a need for appreciation, so there's three main needs and you'll probably

00:30:15.400 recognize these and these are appreciation, approval, and acceptance.

00:30:19.020 Sure.

00:30:19.480 Makes sense.

00:30:19.900 So it's always one of those three followed by one of the other needs, which are like freedom

00:30:24.860 or strength, respect, pleasure, intelligence.

00:30:28.500 And it's not necessarily a need for intelligence.

00:30:30.880 It's a need to be seen as intelligent, which makes a critical difference.

00:30:35.500 And yes, I can see how that would because you don't necessarily need to be intelligent to

00:30:40.940 appear intelligent.

00:30:42.200 And I've certainly ran across people like that.

00:30:44.480 In a way, this, and I realize this is not Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but in a way we're

00:30:48.860 talking about these needs of being appreciated and needed first and foremost, before we're

00:30:54.020 getting more in depth, like the idea of freedom and intellect and these types of needs that you're

00:30:59.000 talking about.

00:30:59.540 Am I understanding that correctly?

00:31:00.580 Like we're going to harness and focus on these foundational needs first and then move to

00:31:03.940 the advanced needs, if I'm saying that correctly.

00:31:06.840 Sure.

00:31:07.100 Yes.

00:31:07.500 So you would work on appreciation, approval, and acceptance first.

00:31:11.080 And you can hear that.

00:31:12.740 Ask someone a random question about something they did in their life and you will hear in

00:31:17.720 that answer, in that one answer, you will hear that human need, that primary human need.

00:31:23.080 And needs are kind of fluid.

00:31:24.580 So you need to continue to ask questions or continue to listen.

00:31:28.580 But usually you can get someone's prime need within one or two sentences.

00:31:32.820 So let's say if it was appreciation, they need to be appreciated by others.

00:31:36.960 That would lead to a fear and a weakness.

00:31:40.580 And if you're a therapist or even if you're looking to influence someone, but a therapist

00:31:45.560 could use those to get a faster outcome from a person.

00:31:48.780 So the fear of a person who seeks appreciation is abandonment.

00:31:53.360 And their weakness would be rejection or loss.

00:31:56.540 And so how would a therapist use that fear and the weakness to get to the root cause or

00:32:04.120 the problem quicker?

00:32:05.820 I think in a very elementary sense, they would be able to frame the person's continued behavior

00:32:12.360 as leading to abandonment and possible rejection and loss from the people they seek appreciation

00:32:18.320 from.

00:32:18.660 So if you don't change, you will continue to experience your fear that you're so worried

00:32:24.600 about.

00:32:25.200 Yes.

00:32:25.780 And I can see how this might actually translate over into a hiring type situation where if

00:32:31.540 their biggest fear is not making their quotas or not making their sale or rejection, which

00:32:37.000 could potentially mean losing their job.

00:32:38.740 Then if you can figure that out and position yourself as the solution, I imagine that's why

00:32:44.140 we're doing this in the first place.

00:32:46.300 Yeah, for sure.

00:32:47.240 So just one more example.

00:32:49.520 So if someone was an intelligence need, and this is something especially in the entrepreneur

00:32:54.260 community that you'll see, the biggest fear for a person with an intelligence need is dismissal

00:33:00.640 or being dismissed or having your information dismissed.

00:33:03.820 Okay.

00:33:04.320 Yeah.

00:33:04.640 And usually one of their lever points or the biggest lever point is confirmation and compliments

00:33:10.620 on their intellectual abilities.

00:33:12.800 And that will help them not feel that need as much.

00:33:14.900 Is that what you're suggesting?

00:33:15.860 Yes.

00:33:16.120 So I took this from interrogation.

00:33:19.260 So like if we had a guy who was a super alpha male, and usually the people you see that you

00:33:24.440 might call a super alpha male are not the super alpha males.

00:33:28.640 They just have a need to be seen as an alpha male, which is very different because it's usually

00:33:34.280 the tiniest dogs that bark the most.

00:33:36.640 Right.

00:33:36.780 Because somebody who is a quote unquote alpha male doesn't have to beat on their chest and

00:33:41.500 tell everybody they're the alpha male.

00:33:43.080 Right.

00:33:43.560 And the people beating on their chest are just like the tiny chihuahua that's barking so

00:33:47.660 no one messes with them.

00:33:49.460 So what's the role then?

00:33:50.680 You're talking about interrogation and this is, and maybe this is not even a legitimate

00:33:54.340 thing, but we see it in the movies all the time, which is the idea and the notion of good

00:33:57.920 cop, bad cop.

00:33:58.980 Talk to me about that.

00:33:59.720 Is that even a real thing?

00:34:00.660 Oh, absolutely.

00:34:02.260 There have been hundreds of research papers and actual studies done that even if you

00:34:09.120 know that good cop, bad cop is being done to you, you're still extremely unlikely to

00:34:15.740 fully resist it.

00:34:17.360 Why is that?

00:34:17.860 Why is it so difficult?

00:34:19.540 Because you want it to be.

00:34:21.020 I guess you imagine you want somebody to be on your side.

00:34:23.480 Yeah.

00:34:24.060 We have that natural need to seek approval from one person.

00:34:28.360 And if there's only one person that's helping us, we're going to do everything we can to

00:34:31.820 get ourselves out of the scenario.

00:34:33.340 And if that guy looks like our only way out, even if we know it's good cop, bad cop, our

00:34:38.860 brain just takes over and says, no, that's the way out.

00:34:41.340 I'm going.

00:34:42.060 That's really interesting.

00:34:42.960 Yeah.

00:34:43.260 Well, it sounds like even knowing the answer to that question doesn't really matter based

00:34:47.160 on the research you're talking about.

00:34:48.540 Yeah.

00:34:49.100 And especially like if you have a guy in there in the interrogation room, that's big, tough

00:34:53.160 guy.

00:34:54.100 They're always the easiest to crack.

00:34:55.920 I would go in there and I would have, let's just use a police interrogation. 0.63

00:35:00.860 I would have a piece of my shirt tail hanging out, a coffee stain on my shirt.

00:35:04.940 I would pay one of the officers to yell at me as I was walking into the room.

00:35:08.900 I might trip on purpose or mispronounce words or stutter or look really nervous.

00:35:14.560 Or sometimes I would just have like a little shaved down pencil that was only like three

00:35:19.000 inches long.

00:35:20.200 Like I forgot my pen that day.

00:35:22.000 And I would just have like a torn up piece of paper to take notes on instead of a really

00:35:25.700 formal looking interrogation form.

00:35:28.120 Interesting.

00:35:28.580 So let their guard down a little bit more.

00:35:30.820 Right.

00:35:31.240 So they don't have to prove that they're alpha.

00:35:33.120 They already feel like it with just me and him in the room.

00:35:36.080 He feels like the king.

00:35:37.300 So he gets he gets a lot more comfort.

00:35:39.360 So I make that deliberate sacrifice of a pawn or a couple of pawns to get the game going.

00:35:44.780 Yeah.

00:35:45.020 Very interesting.

00:35:46.200 Well, Chase, this has been fascinating.

00:35:47.500 I want to talk with you about some real tactical strategies because I don't want to leave the

00:35:51.900 guys hanging.

00:35:52.460 We've talked a lot about psychology and we've talked about this and that and bounced around

00:35:55.500 a little bit.

00:35:56.400 What are some very tactical, actionable steps that men can use immediately to incorporate

00:36:03.880 some of what you're talking about?

00:36:05.440 Yeah, I can give you a few here.

00:36:07.480 Let's start out with physical contact with somebody that you've just met.

00:36:11.820 But you should never, ever make physical contact while they're talking about something that's

00:36:16.900 negative.

00:36:18.140 Interesting.

00:36:18.820 OK, because you're basic.

00:36:20.100 Are you in a way, are you agreeing to what they're saying or supporting what it is they're

00:36:24.140 saying and encouraging them to do more of that?

00:36:26.160 Perhaps.

00:36:26.780 But I think more importantly, you're associating your touch with negative feelings right off

00:36:31.220 the bat.

00:36:31.700 OK, makes sense.

00:36:33.320 Cool.

00:36:33.840 Good.

00:36:34.140 What else?

00:36:35.180 I would say make it a point to start focusing on the fact that you're talking to a brain,

00:36:40.160 not just a person.

00:36:42.480 So when I say don't think of a pink elephant, I have literally caused a electrical action

00:36:49.880 inside your brain.

00:36:51.240 Right.

00:36:51.620 To create that pink elephant. 0.99

00:36:54.360 Yes.

00:36:54.980 So just seeing and trying to imagine that electricity every time you're talking and look at a person

00:37:01.040 and try to visualize their brain sitting in there because that's what you're really

00:37:04.320 talking to.

00:37:04.960 Does that come across disingenuous or does that just take time?

00:37:09.180 Because I imagine that's a really weird exercise to be good at initially the first

00:37:14.940 time you try it.

00:37:15.620 And it might come across like this is a really weird dude as opposed to this is another human

00:37:19.380 being I'm having a conversation with.

00:37:21.760 I think depending on the look on your face.

00:37:24.560 But all I'm suggesting is that you try to imagine that you're speaking to the person's

00:37:29.140 brain and that the words have a very, very significant impact on where the electricity

00:37:35.580 is going.

00:37:36.180 Yeah, interesting.

00:37:37.140 Yeah, because if you if you have a face like you're sitting on the toilet, then people,

00:37:40.700 yeah, they're going to think you're a weird guy for sure.

00:37:42.400 I get that.

00:37:43.380 Yeah.

00:37:43.660 All right.

00:37:43.980 What else?

00:37:44.420 What else you got for us?

00:37:45.760 Try to see the needs in every interaction.

00:37:47.820 Every time you talk to somebody, try to place them on the needs map.

00:37:50.720 And this is not something I'm selling on your podcast.

00:37:53.180 It's widely available.

00:37:54.500 If you just Google human needs map, Chase Hughes or ellipsis human needs map, it's all over

00:37:59.780 the place.

00:38:01.360 Try to start seeing those in conversations.

00:38:03.380 It will really make a difference.

00:38:05.420 If that's the only thing you study, you will grow tremendously.

00:38:09.780 You know, this is really funny that you say this and talk about this.

00:38:12.740 One of the things that I've always had, and this is in full disclosure to you and full

00:38:16.540 disclosure, even to the guys listening to this podcast.

00:38:18.440 Part of the reason I think we've had so much success in the growth of Order of Man is because

00:38:23.360 the social media element, a lot of people think it's sad and it's too bad that people

00:38:28.940 are looking for validation on social media.

00:38:31.280 And rather than focusing on, is it bad or sad or whatever it may be, my thought has always

00:38:35.840 been, I can use this medium to support the needs of human beings.

00:38:39.640 So if their need is to feel validated by liking and or responding to a comment, if I can make

00:38:45.920 a simple response that validates them, they're much more likely to latch on to the movement

00:38:51.900 that we're trying to create here.

00:38:53.360 Am I understanding this correctly?

00:38:55.120 Absolutely.

00:38:56.020 I didn't mention social media, but that's a fantastic place to start looking for it.

00:39:00.520 And you can make someone's day.

00:39:02.340 Yeah.

00:39:02.820 Very simple.

00:39:03.620 Just a quick, even just a thumbs up or, hey, thanks, or I appreciate you or thanks for

00:39:08.240 commenting goes such a long way, I've noticed, even just on social media.

00:39:11.840 It's really, really fascinating to me.

00:39:13.540 Yeah.

00:39:14.260 Great.

00:39:14.720 How about one more tip?

00:39:15.560 You got one more tip for us?

00:39:17.040 So next, I would say, think of yourself as a mood sculptor instead of a fact giver.

00:39:22.520 A lot of people get into this thing of exchanging facts, which is not fun in a conversation.

00:39:28.220 And I would encourage you to start thinking of the moods that you're creating in others, especially

00:39:33.380 when you're talking to the opposite sex.

00:39:36.440 Okay.

00:39:36.840 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:39:37.660 And basically, you're placing yourself in their shoes, thinking about how you can influence

00:39:43.020 their thoughts or their feelings and or their behavior.

00:39:47.040 Yes.

00:39:47.420 Okay.

00:39:48.180 I like that.

00:39:48.620 Next, I would say, never let anybody make a big behavioral decision, like when you're

00:39:53.560 closing a sale or closing anything, while their back is touching a chair.

00:39:58.780 Really?

00:39:59.720 Explain that to me.

00:40:01.200 Anytime we get excited and pumped up to take action, our back comes off of a chair.

00:40:05.020 So you want to make sure if they're sitting down, that their back is off the chair before

00:40:09.140 you start asking the question.

00:40:10.440 So you get them in the right physiology.

00:40:12.520 How do you get their back off the chair? 0.66

00:40:14.100 That is something that if you are doing the mirroring, or you tell them to lean in like

00:40:18.900 you're about to tell them the secret, or if you just lean in and they start to mirror

00:40:23.440 that behavior, or you start talking in a lower tone.

00:40:25.980 I was going to say, just whisper and then they have to lean in to hear you, right?

00:40:28.800 Yes.

00:40:29.480 Makes sense.

00:40:30.300 Well, Chase, this has been fascinating, man.

00:40:31.740 And I know we can go on and on all day about this and we're just skimming the surface based

00:40:36.440 on what I've seen you and the research I've done in the book that I've read.

00:40:39.900 How do we connect with you?

00:40:42.160 Actually, before we get to that, let me ask you the question I prepped you for about a

00:40:44.960 half an hour ago.

00:40:45.720 And that question is, what does it mean to be a man?

00:40:49.300 Ryan, I think being a man is assuming the burden for people around you without feeling

00:40:55.180 the need to talk about it and doing the best you can to lift others up.

00:40:59.720 I love it.

00:41:00.940 I love it.

00:41:01.540 You know, it reminds me of a quote Marcus Aurelia said, let's stop arguing about what

00:41:06.980 it means to be a good man and just be one.

00:41:10.160 Very good.

00:41:11.020 Right on.

00:41:11.480 I love it, man.

00:41:12.200 Well, how do we connect with you, learn more about what you're doing and the work that you've

00:41:16.260 been engaged with?

00:41:17.780 Our website is ellipsisbehavior.com.

00:41:20.780 The book is The Ellipsis Manual Amazon.

00:41:23.240 And on Twitter, I am at TheChaseHughes.

00:41:26.540 Right on, Chase.

00:41:27.140 We'll make sure we link that up.

00:41:28.400 We'll give the guys access to the book and the notes for this show, all of that stuff

00:41:32.780 so they can find out more about what you're doing.

00:41:34.700 I love your work.

00:41:35.380 I got to tell you, this psychology and human behavior has been something that's been very

00:41:39.280 fascinating to me that I've just recently started digging into.

00:41:42.720 And I know that it's improved my life, my ability to be a salesman, a marketer, and just

00:41:47.860 have deeper connections, better connections with people because I'm more able to serve them.

00:41:52.360 So appreciate you, man.

00:41:53.180 I appreciate all you're doing.

00:41:54.280 Thanks, Ryan.

00:41:55.160 Had fun.

00:41:55.620 There it is, gentlemen, my conversation with Mr. Chase Hughes.

00:41:59.520 I hope that you enjoyed this one as much as I did.

00:42:01.860 So much valuable information inside of this show.

00:42:04.480 And I encourage you to check out the work that Chase is doing and pick up a copy of his

00:42:09.780 book, The Ellipsis Manual.

00:42:11.360 And of course, let him know that you heard about him and his book and his work on our show.

00:42:15.800 You can head to orderofman.com slash 132 for a copy of his book and the notes and the links,

00:42:21.520 basically everything that you need if you want more information about what we talked about

00:42:25.320 today.

00:42:25.940 And last but not least today, guys, make sure you check out our exclusive brotherhood again,

00:42:30.320 the Iron Council.

00:42:31.080 I talked about the drift earlier.

00:42:32.660 I know for a long time I wondered how I ended up with the life that I have.

00:42:36.740 And a huge part of that was a lack of clarity, a lack of accountability, and a lack of a clear

00:42:43.220 course of action.

00:42:44.120 So you're going to get all three again inside of our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council. 0.66

00:42:48.020 You can learn more and join the brotherhood at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:42:52.460 Guys, I will look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes.

00:42:55.660 But until then, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

00:42:59.780 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:43:02.760 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

00:43:06.780 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - September 26, 2017

132： Decoding and Deciphering Human Behavior ｜ Chase Hughes

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