132： Decoding and Deciphering Human Behavior ｜ Chase Hughes
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Summary
In this episode, Chase Hughes, founder of Ellipsis Behavior Labs and the author of The EllipsIS Manual, joins me to talk about reading body language and thoughts, becoming a human lie detector, and how to activate trust in others.
Transcript
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Someone asked me several weeks ago, if you could have one superpower, what would that
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To which I responded, the ability to read people's minds.
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As it turns out, one doesn't need to be a superhero in order to possess the ability
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to understand what other people are thinking and to a degree, use that knowledge to produce
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My guest today, the founder of Ellipsis Behavior Laboratories and the author of the Ellipsis
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Manual, Chase Hughes, joins me to talk about reading body language and thoughts, becoming
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a human lie detector, how to activate trust in others, and how to decode and decipher human
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Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
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You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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This is who you will become at the end of the day.
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And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order
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It's becoming a pattern that I just continue to say I have a great show lined up for you.
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We just have some amazing guests, so take it for what it is.
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I do want to get right into the show today because I am so excited about our guest and
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I personally use a lot of what he talks about in my own life.
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He's also an author and speaker on behavioral analysis and body language and behavior engineering.
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He founded Ellipsis Behavior Laboratories in 2011 and has since developed the Behavioral
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Table of Elements, which after pouring over this for some time now, knowing that we were
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going to have a conversation, this is probably the most extensive behavioral analysis tool
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He is also the creator of other systems like the Hostile Hospital and Tactical Psychology.
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And if that's not enough, Chase is also in the process of developing new programs for
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He volunteers his skills by training members of anti-human trafficking teams, which we will be
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talking about in the coming weeks and months around the world.
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He's published two books on human behavior and over 29 articles now and papers on behavior
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Today, he is here to talk about the concepts from his new book, The Ellipsis Manual, Analysis
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Yeah, I know we've been talking for a while and I've read through some of your work.
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It's well-researched and like we talked about a minute ago, pretty dense.
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So getting through all of it can be a challenge in and of itself, but definitely worth it.
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You've developed essentially a workbook or a guide for, and correct me if I'm wrong, interrogation
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Is that the best way to describe it or would you describe it differently?
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I think the first half of the book is kind of dedicated to that.
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And the second half is dedicated to producing compliant behavior in people.
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So the question then is, because these are operative type strategies, this is CIA type
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I guess the question then lends itself to how does this apply to the quote unquote real
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world where it might be applicable to somebody who may not be in one of these organizations
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The techniques in the book might be at an advanced level, and we kind of use that as
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But those techniques are in no way some kind of field or trade craft that specifically
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applies to an intelligence community or an interrogation scenario.
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You could use them to get out of a speeding ticket or talk your way into a new job.
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And so obviously we talk a lot about influence and behavior.
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You even talk about profiling in the book and the information itself.
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So how applicable or how reasonable is some of this stuff?
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Because when I read, for example, body language, and we can maybe start the conversation there.
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For me, it's really hard to determine if somebody's really signaling something or they may be giving
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you a false indicator, for lack of a better term.
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And so as I was growing up in sales and we had the body language experts come in, they'd
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say, well, if your client does this, they mean this.
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And it's like, eh, there might be something completely different.
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And that's the problem, I think, with a lot of the articles and stuff that you see on
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LinkedIn or anywhere on the internet, that it's one thing equals one thing.
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There's a few exceptions with facial expressions, for example.
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But when you start to combine those and you want to definitely look at a group of gestures
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instead of one gesture, if you have a chance to.
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And instead of making an estimation on one gesture, you're taking it into context of what's
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being said, what's going on in the background, and how many other gestures match or correlate
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So it sounds kind of complex, but over the course of a few weeks of just studying this
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stuff, a lot of our students get really good at spotting the emotions that are going on
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and how receptive or how blocked off somebody is to what's going on in front of them.
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I'm sure that you're familiar with Patrick Van Horn and his work with Left of Bang.
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The reason I bring it up is because he talks about something that you're talking about now,
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and I think the term that he uses, if I remember correctly, is clustering the way people are
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So if you take one indicator, for example, like somebody crossing their arms, that's not
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But if you combine that with, let's say, rolling your eyes, then that paints an entirely different
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So yeah, the crossed arms thing, instead of the eye rolling, if someone was trying to hide
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it, you would usually see tight lips or someone squeezing their lips together a little bit,
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which signals withheld opinions most of the time.
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But as far as the crossed arms go by themselves, what if it's 45 degrees outside?
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Which talks about the baseline that you recommend that we establish as well, it sounds like.
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So a lot of people have repetitive behaviors that they do all the time.
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And those behaviors can usually just be negated when you're talking to a person.
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So if someone taps their foot all the time, that's irrelevant during the conversation.
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How do you establish a baseline in somebody you just meet?
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Let's say you walk into a new company for a job interview and you're going to be meeting
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How do you determine a baseline on that individual you've never met before?
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That's a fantastic question that we usually address in training.
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And that if you have a very limited amount of time, the best option you have is to completely
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decide not to establish a baseline whatsoever and read what you can and look for clusters.
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So this leads me to the question that I was really interested in asking because how much
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of this is inherently just understood because we intuitively can read people as human beings
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and how much of this actually needs to be learned?
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Like I know, for example, when my wife is pissed off.
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Now, that might be because I've been with her for 15 years or it might just be because
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I'm a human being and I've been designed and programmed to understand when somebody's
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And I think a lot of us, especially women, have a lot of intuition when it comes to reading
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nonverbal cues, eye movements and face movements.
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There's a lot of unconscious competence when it comes to that.
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But when you want to get to the advanced levels and see exactly what's going on and take
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it into a process to where you can see how receptive someone is in the moment to what's
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being said, that's when you start to see through the social masks.
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So I think one thing you'll learn is that we're all suffering so much.
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The one thing you're going to start to see when you start profiling behavior is how much
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Everybody's suffering and that seeing the way someone hides their suffering is usually
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the most powerful and revealing piece of information you can get about a person.
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And I think in the book you talk about using human needs and you actually go through those
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basic human needs and then the weaknesses that are associated with them.
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Uh, no, I was, I was referring to when you can see the body language of someone trying
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to hide a feeling of insignificance or insecurity and you can see those tiny gestures.
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For instance, if you mentioned, uh, this guy's really rich and the person showed a tiny little
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insecurity gesture, you can know that that person has a little bit of insecurity around
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Would you reframe the way you're talking about money?
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Uh, would you avoid the conversation altogether?
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I'm sure it's context based, but generally speaking, how do you then use this information?
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The information can be used in a whole lot of different ways.
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So if you wanted to make the person feel a little more insecure while you were talking
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about money, you could make like accidental foot contact under the table to ramp up their
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Or you could talk about a program you watched the other day on how, when people finally let
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go of those feelings, they start to live a better life.
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And you can see that person just kind of relax a little bit.
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So I guess it's based on the outcome that you're trying to produce, correct?
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So it's really interesting because as I was reading this manual, you had a disclaimer in
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there that basically talks about the ethics behind using the information that you talk about.
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Can you walk me through some of the ethic type responsibilities that we have when we are
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I think most people are going to use this for sales or maybe some slight influence.
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But towards the end of the book, I, with a lot of research, including research from Dr.
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George Estabrooks, we revealed and kind of reconstructed the process to create a Manchurian
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candidate, which is inherently dangerous, I guess, if you would want to program someone to do
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And I think you have that sense of responsibility.
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You have a sense of responsibility that you assume that's called loco parentis, or you assume
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full custody and control of that person that means you're responsible for what they do.
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And you should ethically be responsible for what they do.
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So my original intent was to design that Manchurian candidate programming into something that had
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And I think you even got into the idea of hypnosis, correct?
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Maybe like 15% of the ellipsis manual discusses or kind of talks around or about hypnosis.
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So how feasible then is it to create in your terminology, this Manchurian candidate or even
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somebody who is impacted by what you're doing and what you're saying in a significant degree?
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I know that I can be influential with, for example, the people listening to this podcast
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or somebody who might be in our Facebook group or one of our masterminds, but how much can
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somebody really be influenced to do things maybe they wouldn't even do on their own?
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I think probably the degree of influence is really going to depend on the person that's
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And that amount of authority that they have over the person and the suggestibility of the
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person that's being operated on, the subject, plays a tremendous role.
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So you see all these studies about hypnotizability and suggestibility.
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It's all done in a laboratory setting, reading off of a piece of paper, the same script with
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None of these doctors know anything about profiling or body language.
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They don't customize or tailor anything that they're saying to meet the needs or the insecurities
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And I think the outcome is dependent on the skill level of the operator.
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And just understanding the terms and everything that you've gone through in the programming that's
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gone into what you're talking about in the ellipsis manual.
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And if you followed it word for word, if you took the Manchurian Candidate script that's
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in the book and you took that word for word, there's hours of what we call entrainment,
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which develops a hyper-suggestibility in a person to you only.
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It doesn't make them hyper-suggestible to commercials or whatever, just to you and your voice.
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And I imagine this takes a lot of time and probably some advanced techniques when you
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think of, for example, and I'm not suggesting this necessarily, but you hear the term waterboarding,
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So interrogation techniques that probably cross the line of ethical and unethical.
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And there's no techniques in the book that are unethical or hurt another person.
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I'm a firm believer in the phrase, we rise by lifting others.
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And aside from all the dangerous stuff, I think it's like creating any weapon.
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99% of the people are going to use it for good.
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And there's always going to be some crazy dude who's going to use it for violence or
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There's always that select few who would go that route with it.
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So then I'm curious about the line between ethical and unethical, not necessarily outcomes,
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How does somebody use the information we're going to talk about throughout the rest of
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If you're using it to build someone up, then I think you're on the right side of the road.
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I think a lot of people have ulterior motives or you make someone do something that they
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normally wouldn't do, or you make someone do something that might not be in their best
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That's where you start getting into that gray area.
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So let's talk then specifically maybe about some of the greatest indicators that you would
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see in people that would indicate maybe they haven't quite developed a sense of trust in
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Because I think at the end of the day, that's what the guys listening to this podcast are
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They're going to want to learn how to be more influential in people's eyes.
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So what are some techniques that we might be able to incorporate to do that?
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And then part two of that question is, how do we recognize when somebody is receptive
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to our influence and is not receptive to our influence?
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I divided every single behavior gesture into four categories, and those are closed, open,
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So every single body language movement you'll read about in a book is one of those four.
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And in the behavioral table of elements that I invented or created a few years ago that
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we use to profile interrogations and whether or not people were being honest or dishonest
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And instead of going through some giant list and listing all of those, I'll give that to
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I'll give you an HD version of that for your listeners to download if you want.
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And I would say, if you want to spot, I think what you're asking is openness or maybe some
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You want to look for those gestures on the behavioral table that are listed as open gestures.
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These are when people expose their neck or their palms and when someone's crossing their
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legs, which is kind of counterintuitive, but that usually indicates they're more receptive.
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Because you're right, that is counterintuitive and it goes against what I would think and
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Crossing the legs usually indicates that someone's comfortable.
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And I know some of the magazines and a lot of the articles that are out there on the internet
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say that anytime something is closing or coming together, especially when it's protecting the
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What you're saying then in that case is not that they're closing off, but that they're actually
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Maybe not as rigid as they normally would be in a new environment.
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When people cross their legs, they're usually indicating that they're more comfortable in
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And if you see a group of people that are crossing their legs and someone that they don't like
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or that they don't trust comes into that group, and this has been proven by Barbara and
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Alan Peay's research and Desmond Morris' research, that they will uncross their legs when a person
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This actually makes sense now that you say this, because if it were me, I'm just thinking
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about if it were up to me and this was me in this situation, if there was a man that
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was approaching me and or my family or people I cared about, I would become uncomfortable
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very quickly, uncross my legs in order to react quicker than I would be able to had my
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I kind of interrupted you and went off on the tangent, but receptiveness to your influence.
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So when you spot that receptiveness and when a person is being open, that's the best time
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And that is one of the sales tactics that we teach at our seminars is anytime you give
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someone a compliment, it should be right after a subject or a person you're talking to exposes
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So anytime during a conversation, you see someone expose their palms, they're exposing
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They're showing some vulnerability and you want to compliment them right then to kind
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Because you're not going to say, I see that you've opened your hands and you're more receptive
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I would say you're not going to compliment the movement of their hands at all.
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I would say one of the top things you could try to say to people, and this is one of the
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the most, the greatest compliments you can give.
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And it's really effective, especially when you mean it.
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And I would encourage you not to say it unless you guys mean it, but complimenting someone
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on how genuine they are by saying something like, it's really rare to meet someone who
00:19:10.940
And it's just really refreshing talking to you.
00:19:14.580
And I imagine if you don't genuinely mean that, then somebody is going to be able to spot
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that the same way you would be able to spot some of their behaviors and the things that
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And I think one of the errors that we all make when we learn behavior and we learn body
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language, especially me when I was like some 24 year old idiot kid, you know, learning
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I thought everyone else had the same knowledge that I did.
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And like I would make a mistake and I'd be like, oh, crap, they're going to notice.
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Like they're going to see through everything I'm doing.
00:19:48.080
And it's 90 percent of the time the people you're talking to don't study behavior.
00:19:55.240
Well, I know even just a small example of that.
00:19:57.680
I was I was on stage this last weekend and as I was presenting, I lost my cue a little
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And I thought, oh, man, they're going to notice this.
00:20:09.740
The only one that notices or knows that you're off right now is you because you're the one
00:20:13.560
doing the planning and have thought about this.
00:20:19.840
And I think we overestimate how much people can read in our own bodies in general, not even
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Just when we're sitting there having a conversation, I think we overestimate how much nervousness
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Well, and I imagine, too, if you're in your own head that way where you're thinking about
00:20:37.540
what they might or might not be thinking about, you're probably not actively engaged in what
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you should be doing, which is trying to analyze their behavior.
00:20:47.080
And that's why I think everybody should make it a point to discover a fact about a stranger
00:20:56.300
Just a simple something unique about them or how does that what does that look like?
00:21:01.020
So you ask the barista whether or not she grew up here or how many free coffee she gives
00:21:06.480
away every day or whether or not she likes working there.
00:21:09.760
And is this just an exercise in trying to find that information out or what is the purpose
00:21:14.920
I would say the exercise would be to get out of your head and that would help you with
00:21:19.720
what we were just talking about, with that feeling that other people can see what's going
00:21:25.380
And I know that this is true even as we're doing this podcast and not so much anymore.
00:21:30.860
But as I started podcasting two and a half, almost three years ago, I remember writing
00:21:36.060
down and thinking to myself, OK, what do I need to say next?
00:21:40.340
What's the order of this conversation versus the type of conversation we're having now is
00:21:44.400
me actually listening to what you're saying and then responding based on whatever your
00:21:50.900
Yeah, I remember I had a wallet card when I was like 20 years old with like conversation
00:21:59.400
Which is that I mean, is that something that somebody should even consider doing?
00:22:03.080
Because I know there's a lot of guys who listen to this who feel a little bit more
00:22:07.560
reserved, closed off and not so open to maybe meeting new people and putting themselves out
00:22:15.660
I would say that no one should think that they're above that.
00:22:18.800
And it was a great way for me to start because it got me out of my head.
00:22:22.440
It got me out from behind my eyes, which is where I lived a lot of times in conversation.
00:22:27.640
And I like that you say this is a great place to start.
00:22:32.080
You shouldn't have to do this for the next two decades.
00:22:34.520
You should just be doing it until you're comfortable without that cue card or outline of a podcast
00:22:39.720
conversation in the context we're talking about here.
00:22:45.140
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Now, with that said, guys, let's get back to my conversation with chase Hughes.
00:25:12.660
When you talk about activating trust, which is a term that you use, how do you then activate
00:25:18.620
Because when I hear the word activate, to me, it's like you're turning on that trust.
00:25:23.380
So there's something that you're doing with or to maybe another person or in order to garner
00:25:29.460
The trust activation sequence could probably be a whole nother podcast.
00:25:34.400
And so if we had to make, and maybe we'll do part two of this, but if we had to give a
00:25:41.740
If we were to give a 30,000 foot view, the activation of trust would look like you are
00:25:47.700
using all of the body language tricks or the body language mechanics to your advantage to
00:25:54.460
where the other person is building trust throughout the conversation.
00:25:57.120
And you're talking about trust while gesturing towards yourself throughout the conversation.
00:26:02.240
And you're doing several other things to make sure that you have that rapport.
00:26:07.200
You make sure the person is interested in what's going on with you.
00:26:11.120
And especially if it's a woman, I know a lot of your listeners are men.
00:26:15.600
The number one signal that they want to look for to confirm that there is interest there
00:26:21.200
is as soon as they look away from the woman, you will see hygienic gestures.
00:26:29.100
That would be a girl licking her lips, adjusting her clothing, putting her hair back behind her
00:26:34.220
ears, sitting up straighter, any kind of gesture designed to improve her appearance.
00:26:39.920
Because the opposite would be indifference, correct?
00:26:43.560
So that's when you look away, she'll make those adjustments.
00:26:46.980
So you're deliberately looking away to allow her the space to do that?
00:26:52.400
And that's the same way you get someone to start following your behavior that you won't
00:26:56.400
see on the internet and you won't see in books.
00:26:58.420
Like if everyone studied matching and mirroring.
00:27:09.140
And I think there's only a few key concepts you need.
00:27:12.220
But to get someone to really mirror you and to get started mirroring you, it's hard to
00:27:19.420
Because think of the last time you were at a dinner table or at a restaurant with somebody
00:27:23.980
and they realized their posture was bad, but they sat up really straight right in front
00:27:28.440
of you and you had that urge to sit up straight yourself and be like, oh, my posture is not
00:27:33.280
But I'm not going to sit up straight because they just did it and they're going to think
00:27:37.840
Like you go into your head and say, well, I'm not going to do this.
00:27:41.300
So the best thing to do to get someone to start copying your gestures is make the movement.
00:27:47.280
So do that sitting up straight thing to increase your posture and then look away to give them
00:27:52.380
that social gap, that little permission to do it without you looking.
00:27:57.240
How do you do that in a way that because the one thing that I seem to be worried about,
00:28:01.600
especially as I'm busy, let's say I'm at a conference or I just got done with presenting
00:28:05.840
on stage and I've got people that want to engage with me, but I've got other people that
00:28:11.940
Like, how do you do this in a way that's respectful, but giving that person full attention,
00:28:17.080
but then also letting them know maybe it's non-verbally that there's other people I need
00:28:27.020
So you wanted to know how to let the person like end the conversation quickly because I
00:28:31.740
know the exact feeling that you're talking about.
00:28:36.260
So like right at the end of the seminar where there's 10 people kind of waiting in a weird
00:28:42.940
The thing that I do myself, I've never planned out a method for this, surprisingly, is that
00:28:48.360
while I'm talking to the other person, I'll usually lean back and point at one person,
00:28:55.160
And that gives that other person an indicator that you recognize there's other people and
00:28:59.620
maybe they'll recognize there's other people as well.
00:29:06.540
Okay, so I want to jump back because we skimmed over something that I think is important and
00:29:10.760
that was a main point in the book from what I saw and that is human needs and understanding
00:29:17.300
that all humans, and this is psychology, so that all humans have a base level of needs
00:29:21.880
and then we can use those needs as a way to fulfill what it is they want and in turn get
00:29:28.840
Can you walk me through some of the human needs that people have that we need to latch on to?
00:29:33.700
I think that the needs that we identified in the book, there's seven core needs and there's
00:29:38.780
17 needs on the first needs map that we trained to that was designed for government.
00:29:44.620
Those needs that we identified are in no way an academic study on human needs.
00:29:51.000
We listed them there because those needs drive most of human behavior and those needs are the
00:29:57.820
easiest to turn into a lever to start causing behavior instead of just observing it.
00:30:04.680
So once you can profile a need, so let's say someone seeks appreciation.
00:30:09.740
A person that has a need for appreciation, so there's three main needs and you'll probably
00:30:15.400
recognize these and these are appreciation, approval, and acceptance.
00:30:19.900
So it's always one of those three followed by one of the other needs, which are like freedom
00:30:28.500
And it's not necessarily a need for intelligence.
00:30:30.880
It's a need to be seen as intelligent, which makes a critical difference.
00:30:35.500
And yes, I can see how that would because you don't necessarily need to be intelligent to
00:30:42.200
And I've certainly ran across people like that.
00:30:44.480
In a way, this, and I realize this is not Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but in a way we're
00:30:48.860
talking about these needs of being appreciated and needed first and foremost, before we're
00:30:54.020
getting more in depth, like the idea of freedom and intellect and these types of needs that you're
00:31:00.580
Like we're going to harness and focus on these foundational needs first and then move to
00:31:03.940
the advanced needs, if I'm saying that correctly.
00:31:07.500
So you would work on appreciation, approval, and acceptance first.
00:31:12.740
Ask someone a random question about something they did in their life and you will hear in
00:31:17.720
that answer, in that one answer, you will hear that human need, that primary human need.
00:31:24.580
So you need to continue to ask questions or continue to listen.
00:31:28.580
But usually you can get someone's prime need within one or two sentences.
00:31:32.820
So let's say if it was appreciation, they need to be appreciated by others.
00:31:40.580
And if you're a therapist or even if you're looking to influence someone, but a therapist
00:31:45.560
could use those to get a faster outcome from a person.
00:31:48.780
So the fear of a person who seeks appreciation is abandonment.
00:31:56.540
And so how would a therapist use that fear and the weakness to get to the root cause or
00:32:05.820
I think in a very elementary sense, they would be able to frame the person's continued behavior
00:32:12.360
as leading to abandonment and possible rejection and loss from the people they seek appreciation
00:32:18.660
So if you don't change, you will continue to experience your fear that you're so worried
00:32:25.780
And I can see how this might actually translate over into a hiring type situation where if
00:32:31.540
their biggest fear is not making their quotas or not making their sale or rejection, which
00:32:38.740
Then if you can figure that out and position yourself as the solution, I imagine that's why
00:32:49.520
So if someone was an intelligence need, and this is something especially in the entrepreneur
00:32:54.260
community that you'll see, the biggest fear for a person with an intelligence need is dismissal
00:33:00.640
or being dismissed or having your information dismissed.
00:33:04.640
And usually one of their lever points or the biggest lever point is confirmation and compliments
00:33:12.800
And that will help them not feel that need as much.
00:33:19.260
So like if we had a guy who was a super alpha male, and usually the people you see that you
00:33:24.440
might call a super alpha male are not the super alpha males.
00:33:28.640
They just have a need to be seen as an alpha male, which is very different because it's usually
00:33:36.780
Because somebody who is a quote unquote alpha male doesn't have to beat on their chest and
00:33:43.560
And the people beating on their chest are just like the tiny chihuahua that's barking so
00:33:50.680
You're talking about interrogation and this is, and maybe this is not even a legitimate
00:33:54.340
thing, but we see it in the movies all the time, which is the idea and the notion of good
00:34:02.260
There have been hundreds of research papers and actual studies done that even if you
00:34:09.120
know that good cop, bad cop is being done to you, you're still extremely unlikely to
00:34:21.020
I guess you imagine you want somebody to be on your side.
00:34:24.060
We have that natural need to seek approval from one person.
00:34:28.360
And if there's only one person that's helping us, we're going to do everything we can to
00:34:33.340
And if that guy looks like our only way out, even if we know it's good cop, bad cop, our
00:34:38.860
brain just takes over and says, no, that's the way out.
00:34:43.260
Well, it sounds like even knowing the answer to that question doesn't really matter based
00:34:49.100
And especially like if you have a guy in there in the interrogation room, that's big, tough
00:34:55.920
I would go in there and I would have, let's just use a police interrogation.
00:35:00.860
I would have a piece of my shirt tail hanging out, a coffee stain on my shirt.
00:35:04.940
I would pay one of the officers to yell at me as I was walking into the room.
00:35:08.900
I might trip on purpose or mispronounce words or stutter or look really nervous.
00:35:14.560
Or sometimes I would just have like a little shaved down pencil that was only like three
00:35:22.000
And I would just have like a torn up piece of paper to take notes on instead of a really
00:35:31.240
So they don't have to prove that they're alpha.
00:35:33.120
They already feel like it with just me and him in the room.
00:35:39.360
So I make that deliberate sacrifice of a pawn or a couple of pawns to get the game going.
00:35:47.500
I want to talk with you about some real tactical strategies because I don't want to leave the
00:35:52.460
We've talked a lot about psychology and we've talked about this and that and bounced around
00:35:56.400
What are some very tactical, actionable steps that men can use immediately to incorporate
00:36:07.480
Let's start out with physical contact with somebody that you've just met.
00:36:11.820
But you should never, ever make physical contact while they're talking about something that's
00:36:20.100
Are you in a way, are you agreeing to what they're saying or supporting what it is they're
00:36:24.140
saying and encouraging them to do more of that?
00:36:26.780
But I think more importantly, you're associating your touch with negative feelings right off
00:36:35.180
I would say make it a point to start focusing on the fact that you're talking to a brain,
00:36:42.480
So when I say don't think of a pink elephant, I have literally caused a electrical action
00:36:54.980
So just seeing and trying to imagine that electricity every time you're talking and look at a person
00:37:01.040
and try to visualize their brain sitting in there because that's what you're really
00:37:04.960
Does that come across disingenuous or does that just take time?
00:37:09.180
Because I imagine that's a really weird exercise to be good at initially the first
00:37:15.620
And it might come across like this is a really weird dude as opposed to this is another human
00:37:24.560
But all I'm suggesting is that you try to imagine that you're speaking to the person's
00:37:29.140
brain and that the words have a very, very significant impact on where the electricity
00:37:37.140
Yeah, because if you if you have a face like you're sitting on the toilet, then people,
00:37:40.700
yeah, they're going to think you're a weird guy for sure.
00:37:47.820
Every time you talk to somebody, try to place them on the needs map.
00:37:50.720
And this is not something I'm selling on your podcast.
00:37:54.500
If you just Google human needs map, Chase Hughes or ellipsis human needs map, it's all over
00:38:05.420
If that's the only thing you study, you will grow tremendously.
00:38:09.780
You know, this is really funny that you say this and talk about this.
00:38:12.740
One of the things that I've always had, and this is in full disclosure to you and full
00:38:16.540
disclosure, even to the guys listening to this podcast.
00:38:18.440
Part of the reason I think we've had so much success in the growth of Order of Man is because
00:38:23.360
the social media element, a lot of people think it's sad and it's too bad that people
00:38:31.280
And rather than focusing on, is it bad or sad or whatever it may be, my thought has always
00:38:35.840
been, I can use this medium to support the needs of human beings.
00:38:39.640
So if their need is to feel validated by liking and or responding to a comment, if I can make
00:38:45.920
a simple response that validates them, they're much more likely to latch on to the movement
00:38:56.020
I didn't mention social media, but that's a fantastic place to start looking for it.
00:39:03.620
Just a quick, even just a thumbs up or, hey, thanks, or I appreciate you or thanks for
00:39:08.240
commenting goes such a long way, I've noticed, even just on social media.
00:39:17.040
So next, I would say, think of yourself as a mood sculptor instead of a fact giver.
00:39:22.520
A lot of people get into this thing of exchanging facts, which is not fun in a conversation.
00:39:28.220
And I would encourage you to start thinking of the moods that you're creating in others, especially
00:39:37.660
And basically, you're placing yourself in their shoes, thinking about how you can influence
00:39:43.020
their thoughts or their feelings and or their behavior.
00:39:48.620
Next, I would say, never let anybody make a big behavioral decision, like when you're
00:39:53.560
closing a sale or closing anything, while their back is touching a chair.
00:40:01.200
Anytime we get excited and pumped up to take action, our back comes off of a chair.
00:40:05.020
So you want to make sure if they're sitting down, that their back is off the chair before
00:40:14.100
That is something that if you are doing the mirroring, or you tell them to lean in like
00:40:18.900
you're about to tell them the secret, or if you just lean in and they start to mirror
00:40:23.440
that behavior, or you start talking in a lower tone.
00:40:25.980
I was going to say, just whisper and then they have to lean in to hear you, right?
00:40:31.740
And I know we can go on and on all day about this and we're just skimming the surface based
00:40:36.440
on what I've seen you and the research I've done in the book that I've read.
00:40:42.160
Actually, before we get to that, let me ask you the question I prepped you for about a
00:40:45.720
And that question is, what does it mean to be a man?
00:40:49.300
Ryan, I think being a man is assuming the burden for people around you without feeling
00:40:55.180
the need to talk about it and doing the best you can to lift others up.
00:41:01.540
You know, it reminds me of a quote Marcus Aurelia said, let's stop arguing about what
00:41:12.200
Well, how do we connect with you, learn more about what you're doing and the work that you've
00:41:28.400
We'll give the guys access to the book and the notes for this show, all of that stuff
00:41:32.780
so they can find out more about what you're doing.
00:41:35.380
I got to tell you, this psychology and human behavior has been something that's been very
00:41:39.280
fascinating to me that I've just recently started digging into.
00:41:42.720
And I know that it's improved my life, my ability to be a salesman, a marketer, and just
00:41:47.860
have deeper connections, better connections with people because I'm more able to serve them.
00:41:55.620
There it is, gentlemen, my conversation with Mr. Chase Hughes.
00:41:59.520
I hope that you enjoyed this one as much as I did.
00:42:01.860
So much valuable information inside of this show.
00:42:04.480
And I encourage you to check out the work that Chase is doing and pick up a copy of his
00:42:11.360
And of course, let him know that you heard about him and his book and his work on our show.
00:42:15.800
You can head to orderofman.com slash 132 for a copy of his book and the notes and the links,
00:42:21.520
basically everything that you need if you want more information about what we talked about
00:42:25.940
And last but not least today, guys, make sure you check out our exclusive brotherhood again,
00:42:32.660
I know for a long time I wondered how I ended up with the life that I have.
00:42:36.740
And a huge part of that was a lack of clarity, a lack of accountability, and a lack of a clear
00:42:44.120
So you're going to get all three again inside of our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council.
00:42:48.020
You can learn more and join the brotherhood at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.
00:42:52.460
Guys, I will look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday Field Notes.
00:42:55.660
But until then, take action and become the man you are meant to be.
00:42:59.780
Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
00:43:02.760
If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,
00:43:06.780
we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.