Order of Man - 135： Jocko Willink ｜ Discipline Equals Freedom

00:00:00.000 There is no shortage of motivational events and courses, seminars, quotes, memes, you name it.

00:00:07.040 Don't get me wrong, motivation has its purpose, but discipline is a far greater asset on your

00:00:12.500 path to accomplishing big things in your life. Where motivation falls short, discipline picks

00:00:17.900 up the slack. Today, I am joined by a man that needs no introduction, Jocko Willink,

00:00:23.020 to talk about connecting future ambitions with present actions, why every man must find his

00:00:28.760 mission, how to overcome fear and procrastination, and his mantra, discipline equals freedom.

00:00:34.280 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:00:39.160 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:45.020 easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:00:52.220 This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:00:56.540 you can call yourself a man.

00:00:58.860 Man, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this

00:01:03.680 podcast, The Order of Man. I can't tell you guys how excited I am to finally, finally be releasing

00:01:09.240 this podcast. I've been talking about it for about a month now and telling you to subscribe

00:01:13.940 because we've got some amazing guests coming on. We always do, but my lineup this month is killer.

00:01:19.360 Last week, we had Gary John Bishop, the author of Un-F Yourself, and I told you to fill in the blank.

00:01:24.620 You can do it again. Today, we have Jocko Willink, the author of Discipline Equals Freedom,

00:01:29.080 The Field Manual. And next week, we have Lewis Howes, the author of The Mask of Masculinity.

00:01:34.720 So, powerhouse lineup. I want to let you know that I appreciate you for tuning in and for listening

00:01:40.600 as long as you have to The Order of Man podcast. Without you, we would not be able to interview

00:01:45.180 guys of this caliber. So, I want to thank you. Now, a couple of things before I get into the

00:01:51.020 interview for today. First, would you mind sharing this? I don't ask for you to share this

00:01:55.800 a lot, but this one really is going to resonate with you and the other men in your life, whether

00:02:00.340 that's your father or your brothers, friends, colleagues, coworkers. It could even be random

00:02:05.060 strangers on Facebook, but either way, share it and make sure to tag me and Jocko when you do.

00:02:10.960 Second, I want to give a quick shout out to our show sponsor, NetSuite by Oracle. I'm a business

00:02:16.500 owner. A lot of men who listen to the show are business owners. And NetSuite is trying to make

00:02:20.540 it easier on us to become great owners of businesses. They're helping track revenues and

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00:02:32.140 I don't have a lot of time to sit on the phone with customer support, figuring all of the software

00:02:36.640 and all of the stuff out. So, they're committed to getting me and you up and running as quickly

00:02:40.680 as possible so we can focus on the things that actually matter, like bringing you great

00:02:45.460 podcast guests. So, all of that, they're going to set you up with a free guide called

00:02:49.900 Overcoming Your Five Obstacles to Growth. You can go to netsuite.com slash man to pick

00:02:54.480 that up and see what they're all about and pick up the last business solution you'll ever

00:02:58.160 need. Again, it's netsuite.com slash man. That's netsuite.com slash man. Gentlemen, as

00:03:04.520 I said before, I have been looking forward to releasing this conversation, this podcast with

00:03:09.860 you with my return guest, Jocko Willink. I'm sure that most of you know who Jocko is, but

00:03:13.960 just in case that you've been living under a rock for the past four or five years, let

00:03:18.440 me introduce you to him real briefly. He is a former Navy SEAL and commander of Task Unit

00:03:23.500 Bruiser, which is the most decorated special forces unit of the Iraqi war. We actually had

00:03:29.000 some overlap time when I was in Ramadi. We talk about that towards the end of the show.

00:03:32.980 He is a recipient of the Bronze and Silver Star. He's a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt. He's

00:03:38.340 a New York Times bestselling author of three books and arguably one of the most disciplined

00:03:43.100 men on this planet. I, like you, have been following him ever since I ran across his book,

00:03:47.380 Extreme Ownership in Barnes and Noble, and have been fortunate enough to develop a close

00:03:52.120 enough relationship with him and his team that when I heard he was coming out with a

00:03:55.440 new book, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, I was able to get a message to him and

00:04:00.180 get him back on the show. Gentlemen, strap in, get your notepads out, and get ready to tune

00:04:06.000 into one of the most qualified men I know to talk about how discipline will give you the freedom

00:04:10.940 that you are after. Jocko, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:04:17.320 How's it going?

00:04:18.000 It's going good. Yeah, it's been a while. It's been about, you know, I didn't look. I should

00:04:21.580 have looked, but it seems like we are about a year, maybe a little over a year ago since

00:04:26.180 we last talked on the podcast, and I know the guys really enjoyed that conversation.

00:04:29.800 Thanks. Appreciate you having me on.

00:04:31.280 Yeah, so we've got a new book coming out, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

00:04:35.420 When did this whole notion of Discipline Equals Freedom become your mantra, if you will?

00:04:43.780 I would say it's hard for me to actually pinpoint a date and time when I began to actually say

00:04:50.460 those words. I was still in the SEAL teams. I think it was when I was starting to have to

00:04:56.760 explain to the young junior officers how to do better. And as I was doing it, as I was trying

00:05:04.860 to explain that to them and try and verbalize to them in a simple way, sort of the code that I tried

00:05:11.180 to live by, you know, along with the military tactics of cover, move and keeping things simple

00:05:17.380 and decentralized command and prioritize and execute and taking ownership of things. Along with those,

00:05:23.280 I would talk somewhat about my personal mode and operating system. And when I tried to explain

00:05:31.280 that to them, I at some point said, if you want freedom, then you need to have discipline and

00:05:38.020 discipline equals freedom. And that is where it came from.

00:05:42.100 You say you want these guys, you wanted these guys to do better, you know, as they started to

00:05:46.480 adopt this principles. And I know it's a simple phrase, right? And I know there's a lot more to it,

00:05:51.020 and we're going to get into that. But as these guys started to adopt this mantra,

00:05:54.860 I mean, did things change quickly? What was the result of implementing more discipline in their

00:05:59.660 lives? Well, I mean, it's obvious when anyone starts to implement discipline in their lives,

00:06:06.460 that their lives get better. Sure. And you see that on every level from the way they handle their

00:06:12.120 finances, to their physical conditioning, to their actual internal health, to the way they do their job,

00:06:20.460 to the way they, you know, take care of their family. When you live a disciplined life,

00:06:24.840 you do better across the board. And it's really interesting because if you say discipline equals

00:06:30.060 freedom, then you almost have to assume that the opposite of that is bondage and slavery. And yet

00:06:36.460 we see so many men and women who have anything but discipline and gravitate towards letting life get

00:06:43.000 a hold of them versus the other way around. Yeah. Well, one of my classic ways that I explained this

00:06:48.320 to my son was when we were walking down the street, you know, we saw some guy that was clearly a bum,

00:06:55.180 probably addicted to drugs and alcohol, clearly homeless. And, you know, I mean, I feel bad for

00:07:00.440 the guy. But at the same time, I explained to my son that this guy made decisions along the way that

00:07:05.840 he thought he was going to free himself. He was just going to, you know, I'm not going to work. I'm

00:07:09.700 not going to go to that job. I'm not going to show up on time. I'm going to do whatever I want.

00:07:12.960 And I'm going to, I'll do whatever I want. I'll drink this alcohol. I'll do these drugs.

00:07:17.500 I'll, I'll, I don't need to pay the rent on time. You know, I'll just do whatever I want. I'll be

00:07:22.000 free. And, and now, like you said, he's a slave. He's a slave that has nowhere to live. He's a slave

00:07:28.480 to the weather. He's a slave to trying to beg for food and for, for water and for medical attention.

00:07:35.780 He's a slave to people that are willing to give him things as opposed to owning things and making

00:07:41.580 things happen for himself. So I think that's the, the, the strongest example of where total freedom

00:07:48.220 results in, you know, a devastated life is if you look at many, many people that have lost their way

00:07:54.720 and lost their path in life and they end up, you know, addicted to drugs and alcohol and living on

00:08:01.420 the streets because they have had no discipline. Let's define the, the word freedom. When you,

00:08:06.800 when you say freedom, what are you experiencing in your life? And what do you mean that other people

00:08:13.400 can experience in their lives when you're talking about freedom?

00:08:16.120 Well, freedom is the broad term for me that encompasses being able to do what you want.

00:08:21.640 Primarily number one is being able to do what you want. And, and the more discipline you have in your

00:08:26.820 life, the more you will be able to do what you want. And that's not true. Initially, initially the

00:08:32.340 discipline, it might be things that you don't want to do at the time, but the more you do things that

00:08:38.400 you don't want to do, the more you do the right things, the better off you will, the better off

00:08:42.840 you will be in the more freedom you will have. So again, the, the, the classic examples that I talk

00:08:48.580 about all the time are financial freedom. Number one, because if you want to have financial freedom,

00:08:52.460 what you need to have is financial discipline. And the more you, the more attention you pay to how you

00:08:58.060 spend your money and the more disciplined you are in, in saving money and not buying things that

00:09:02.660 you don't need, the better off. And the more financial freedom you are going to have. The

00:09:07.960 other one that I talk about all the time, because everyone understands it is free time. Everyone

00:09:12.440 wants to have more free time. And if you want to have more free time, there's only one real way to

00:09:18.460 get there. And that's to have more disciplined time management, not only creating a schedule of what

00:09:24.240 it is you want to do during a day and then sticking that to that schedule, but also saying no to things

00:09:29.800 that don't benefit you in any way, saying no to things that aren't going to help you improve as 0.99

00:09:34.880 a human being saying no to spending an hour and 47 minutes watching stupid YouTube videos that are 1.00

00:09:42.960 actually taking you backwards mentally. Yeah. Those are the kinds of things you need to say no to if 1.00

00:09:47.140 you want to have more free time. And I imagine too, and I know this has been true for me is that

00:09:52.120 the more that I exercise discipline in my life, for example, the discipline of getting out of bed

00:09:57.620 earlier and going into the gym, the longer that I exercise that discipline, the less discipline that

00:10:03.120 is actually required for me to continue doing that thing. Yes, that is true. The more your

00:10:08.940 disciplines become just habits, the easier it becomes and the less effort you have to put into it.

00:10:14.720 And what that allows you to do is step out and find new things that you might be weak at

00:10:19.380 and use your, use your extra discipline to get control of those things.

00:10:23.940 When you talk about the things that you're weak at, I think there's two schools of thought and I

00:10:28.700 think it's probably somewhere in the middle, but a lot of people will talk about, don't worry about

00:10:32.680 what you're not good at. Just double down on what you are. And then other people will say,

00:10:36.540 always focus on your weaknesses so you can build those up. Where do you fall? Or is it somewhere in

00:10:40.300 the middle? I think you definitely want to capitalize on your strengths for sure. You know,

00:10:44.400 if you and I were to get into a fight and I knew that you were a really good boxer

00:10:47.340 and I was a really good grappler, well, then I would take you down to the ground and submit you

00:10:52.860 there. Now that's what I would do in a fight. Meanwhile, while I'm training, guess what I'll do? 0.72

00:10:58.660 I'm going to become a better boxer. I'm also going to maintain my grappling skills, but I'm also,

00:11:03.740 but I'm going to focus on the areas that I'm weak to make sure that they don't get exposed

00:11:07.440 in the event that that situation arises. So I think definitely capitalize on your strengths and

00:11:12.780 work on your weaknesses. They're not mutually exclusive. You can do both.

00:11:15.440 I will say that one of my goals in life is not to get into a physical altercation with you though.

00:11:21.820 Unless we're training, I would take part in that for sure.

00:11:25.920 Come on down to San Diego.

00:11:27.320 Right on. I'm definitely going to take you up on that. So Jocko, have you always been disciplined?

00:11:31.700 I mean, where does this come from? Is this ingrained in you? Were you born disciplined? Were

00:11:35.720 there times in your life where you were not disciplined?

00:11:37.640 Oh yeah. I was kind of a crazy kid growing up. I actually was pretty rebellious. And for me,

00:11:47.300 growing up in a small New England town, probably the most rebellious thing that I could do was join

00:11:51.840 the military because most kids either stayed in town and became house painters or landscapers,

00:11:59.080 or they went off to college and pursued some kind of a career. Not many people from where I'm from

00:12:05.420 joining the military. So that's one of the most rebellious things I could do was join the military.

00:12:10.020 And I think what led to that was I always, I was a little bit of a rebel against kind of the

00:12:15.280 mainstream kids that I grew up around that were smoking pot and listening to hippie music. And I

00:12:22.700 actually went in the other direction and was into kind of hardcore music and metal music. And that

00:12:30.020 attitude that I learned from that kind of music sort of directed me in, in this thought process when

00:12:36.880 I was young and it just kind of carried through. And I would say that phase of my life, it was pretty

00:12:42.600 hardcore for, for when I was a kid, but it's still, you know, I still think about that. I still listen to

00:12:47.100 the same music. I still, I still believe in, in trying to do the right thing and try and maintain

00:12:52.880 discipline in what I'm doing.

00:12:54.420 How did your perspective change when you joined the military?

00:12:59.440 Joining the military was great for me because it was a blank slate when you're a kid. And well,

00:13:04.540 when I was a kid and I think a lot of kids have this problem. And I say kids, I mean,

00:13:08.840 people between the ages of seven and 27. I think that it's hard sometimes to connect the present with

00:13:19.300 the future. And I know me, I didn't realize that I didn't realize where that, that what I was doing

00:13:25.600 at this moment in time as a 14 year old or 15 year old kid absolutely affect what affect where I would

00:13:31.820 end up in the future. And what was great was when I joined the military, all of a sudden they paint

00:13:36.860 this very clear path for you. And for me, the path that I was trying to get on was trying to be a

00:13:41.940 seal. And, and when I got into bootcamp, they said, okay, if you do these things, you will get this,

00:13:48.040 you will be on the path to be a seal. If you don't do these things, you will be off the path.

00:13:52.860 So it was very simple for me. Okay. I need to do these exercises. I need to run this amount of

00:13:58.040 time. I need to swim this amount of time. I need to fold my uniforms that are way, the way they're

00:14:02.140 telling me to fold them. I need to study the material that they're telling me to study. If I

00:14:06.380 want to stay on the path to becoming a seal. So once, once I found that path, I could focus my

00:14:11.620 energy on it. And that's what I did.

00:14:13.660 So then you're suggesting that if somebody were to find a path that's appealing to them or,

00:14:18.880 or, or moves them for whatever reason, then that's going to help them be more disciplined

00:14:22.540 because they work themselves backwards into the tactics that need to be completed.

00:14:26.420 Yeah. And I think that's one of the hard things for younger people is you don't, I had a very

00:14:32.620 clearly defined path that I did define it for myself. I wanted to be a seal. And so that's a very

00:14:37.760 clearly defined path for me. A lot of people, they don't know what it is that they actually want to do.

00:14:42.600 And so when you don't know what you want to do, there's no path to be on. So you can just

00:14:46.660 wander wherever you want. And what I would, I would say is even if you don't know where you

00:14:51.520 want to go, there are certain fundamental things that are going to help you no matter what path you

00:14:56.260 want to be on being physically fit, being mentally strong, being learning as much as you can about as

00:15:02.200 much different topics and, and variable things in the world that you can doing all those things

00:15:09.320 will make you a better person, make you more prepared for whatever endeavor it is. You're

00:15:14.360 going to end up trying to pursue. I want to talk about mental strength, because I think if we take

00:15:19.880 the route of physical strength, I don't think that's guesswork. I think everybody knows you go

00:15:23.600 into the gym, you move your body, you push around heavy things, you run, you do the thing.

00:15:27.100 But I, I get a lot of questions about how to develop mental strength. What are your suggestions?

00:15:32.560 Yeah. If you want to be mentally tougher, be tougher. That's it. There's no mystery there.

00:15:39.580 You, the things that are hard to do that take mental toughness, do them. You don't feel like

00:15:44.000 doing the work that you're supposed to do, do it anyways. You don't feel like getting up in the

00:15:47.940 early in the morning, get up early in the morning. You don't feel like spending that

00:15:51.480 one and a half hours writing for the book that you're trying to write. You write the freaking book 0.99

00:15:56.840 that you're supposed to write. That's what you do. There's no, there's no magic pill. There's no 1.00

00:16:01.760 brain waves that you can hook into a machine. There's no meditation that's going to get you

00:16:09.060 there. What you do is the things that you don't feel like doing, do them anyways. Just be tougher.

00:16:13.280 I love that. I love that answer because I'm actually dealing with the,

00:16:16.220 the example that you just shared, which is writing a book. And I know for me, it's like

00:16:20.700 write 1500 to 2000 words per day, man, that's a challenge sometimes, but I know how I feel when I

00:16:26.120 get it done in the sense of accomplishment when I just do it. And it literally is just a decision

00:16:31.380 that I've made to sit down, get my butt in the chair behind the computer and get the words

00:16:35.460 cranked out. Yeah. And when I'm writing, I only write a thousand words a day, which takes me about

00:16:39.260 an hour. And after that I get, I don't, I want to go do something else. So 2000 words a day,

00:16:44.720 I'm guessing that probably takes you around two hours, unless you're just a really fast writer.

00:16:48.680 No, it takes me about two and a half hours.

00:16:50.920 Well, there you go. So that's how you get it done. And like you said, I think it's important for

00:16:56.000 people to remember what it feels like to when you do get done. And that way,

00:17:00.380 when you don't feel like doing it, you can fast forward your brain a little bit and say, okay,

00:17:03.820 well in two and a half hours, I'm going to feel really good that I got this done.

00:17:07.680 And, and you can add that, add to that fact that in 30 days, you're going to have 60,000 words,

00:17:15.080 which is almost a whole book. So think about that and sit your ass down and start writing. 0.98

00:17:21.460 I mean, it isn't, it's amazing that we as human beings have the capability of projecting 0.97

00:17:26.420 ourselves into the future consciousness, essentially, and deciding what the future

00:17:30.560 is going to hold based on our actions today.

00:17:32.720 Yeah. Pretty cool.

00:17:33.980 One of the things that you had mentioned was the discipline that comes with the military.

00:17:39.980 I've seen a lot of guys who get out of the military and they continue that discipline

00:17:45.100 lifestyle. You're one of them. I'm sure a lot of guys on the teams with you are,

00:17:48.560 are among those ranks as well. But then there's other guys who really struggle

00:17:52.420 when they get out of the military. It's almost as if they lose either their sense of direction or

00:17:57.100 something goes wrong. And I'm curious what the difference is between guys who maintain that

00:18:00.980 discipline and guys who potentially fall apart.

00:18:04.060 For me, guys that maintain discipline are guys that move on to their next mission. And the guys

00:18:09.840 that lose discipline are the guys that can't find or don't find their next mission. So if you're

00:18:15.420 getting out of the military, what you need to do is figure out what your next mission is going to be.

00:18:19.120 And I don't care what it is, whether you're going to build a house, whether you're going to start a

00:18:23.860 nonprofit organization, whether you're going to get a job, whether you're going to make a bunch

00:18:27.780 of money doing that job, whether you're going to go and walk around the world with a backpack

00:18:32.060 feeding people, whatever it is, your next mission is going to be. That's what you need to do,

00:18:37.300 because I think that mission will reveal the path that you need to be on. And military guys can tap

00:18:43.620 into the fact that they know what it takes to be disciplined. They can tap back into that to

00:18:48.900 accomplish their next mission as long as they figure out what that next mission is going to be.

00:18:52.960 What do you consider your life's mission right now?

00:18:56.360 Right now, I'm trying to just pass on some of the lessons that I've learned and that I'm

00:19:00.060 continuing to learn in my life. I've been really fortunate to have had some great experiences and

00:19:06.080 to have the opportunity to pass those experiences on to other people and then explore new experiences,

00:19:12.160 always reading and trying to educate myself and learn more about the world so I can pass that on.

00:19:16.480 I know that just by watching you, obviously, in the morning, you're up by 4.30. Is that every

00:19:22.640 morning, by the way, seven days a week, 4.30? Yes. What does the rest of your schedule for the

00:19:28.200 morning look like? How do you get ramped up for the day and develop a system for discipline?

00:19:33.780 Wake up, brush your teeth, work out. That's where it starts. Wake up, brush your teeth, work out.

00:19:41.060 So those things are what you have to do. And for me, like you said, you talked earlier about

00:19:48.240 having habits. Those are my habits. So that's what I do. Now, once I'm done with that, I've got a lot

00:19:54.220 of different businesses going on and a lot of different things happening. Obviously, I've got

00:19:58.960 a consulting company called Echelon Front where we go around and work with companies actually all over

00:20:05.120 the world now, which is awesome. So I have to talk to clients, return calls to clients, email clients,

00:20:11.480 look through information that they've sent me. So I have to do that. I have to write each day. I have

00:20:16.560 to prepare for the podcast that I do, which takes a lot of time to prepare for. And of course, I have

00:20:22.520 to do jujitsu and surf, which are very important things. And then I got a family, so I spend time with

00:20:28.320 them. That's what my day is. My day is just get up and go and get the things done that I know I need

00:20:33.300 to get done. You talk about surfing and I've seen some pictures. I imagine that's a sense of

00:20:37.900 release and relaxing, if you will. I don't know if you can relax. I don't know. Based on what I've

00:20:44.280 seen, it's like, man, does the guy ever slow down? And I'm really curious about downtime, free time,

00:20:49.500 scheduling, time to recharge in your life. What does that look like for you?

00:20:53.260 Usually jujitsu and when the waves are good surfing, that's what. But the thing that's good

00:20:57.240 about jujitsu is you can do it every day. You don't need good waves. You just need people to train

00:21:01.500 with, which I have a lot of because I have a gym in San Diego. And so we have a thousand people to

00:21:07.640 train with every day, which is awesome. So that's a great form of relaxation. And if the waves are

00:21:12.840 good, you can relax surfing. And so you actually build that into your day. It sounds like every

00:21:16.960 day, essentially. Well, jujitsu is, yes. Surfing, again, depends on what the ocean wants to do.

00:21:24.940 As we talk about discipline today, I want to very quickly make a mention of our exclusive

00:21:30.020 brotherhood, the Iron Council. We talk a lot about accountability in the group and how powerful

00:21:34.620 it can be, but more powerful than that are the tools and resources that you're going to be tapping

00:21:39.640 into to develop more discipline in your life. As much as I would like you to be a lifelong member

00:21:45.920 of the Iron Council, I'd rather you pick up the tools and the skills to go out into the world,

00:21:50.620 out on your own, lead your family, lead your business, your community, and your life. We've

00:21:55.680 developed a quick start guide to get you up and running quickly and have built a program that

00:22:00.120 will walk you through everything that you need to do to create your own 90 day battle plan.

00:22:04.340 This plan is going to help you identify some objectives and then narrow down to the tactics

00:22:09.180 to ensure that you complete these objectives. And then of course, giving you everything that

00:22:13.500 you need to develop more discipline in your life. So if you want to learn more and you want to claim

00:22:17.920 your seat in the Iron Council, you can do so at orderofman.com slash Iron Council. Again,

00:22:23.200 that's orderofman.com slash Iron Council. Now let's get back to the conversation with Jocko.

00:22:30.660 What role does accountability play? Because I look at accountability sometimes and it's kind of a weird

00:22:36.680 thing for me because essentially if you're looking for accountability from others, you're relying upon

00:22:41.280 what others are going to do and if they're going to show up. I think there's a deeper level of

00:22:45.280 accountability, which is to yourself, but I'm really curious how you use or if you use accountability

00:22:50.420 to keep yourself disciplined when you don't want to be. You know, from a leadership perspective,

00:22:54.620 I always say that accountability is a tool, but it should not be your leading tool. And I work with

00:23:00.400 companies, I've worked with a lot of companies along the way that their answer to every problem

00:23:04.020 that they're having is that they just need to have more accountability. Right. And that sounds great

00:23:07.880 because let's face it, if you're my employee and I need you to do X, Y, and Z every day,

00:23:14.220 and every day I sit there and watch you do X, Y, and Z, and I check the box that you've done X and

00:23:19.020 I check the box that you've done Y and I check the box that you've done Z, I've held you accountable

00:23:23.100 to doing them and they get done a hundred percent because I watched you. Well, the problem comes in

00:23:27.900 that I don't just have you as my employee. I've got a team of 15 people and I've got other things that

00:23:33.400 are happening. So I can't watch 15 people do ABC, DEF, LMNOP, QRZ, and I can't hold everyone

00:23:42.420 accountable. So accountability in a leadership, from a leadership perspective, it doesn't really

00:23:47.680 work because no leader has the time to hold everyone accountable for every single task that

00:23:52.900 they're doing. So what we actually want to do is we want to lead people. That's what our goal is,

00:23:57.260 is as a leader, I want Ryan to know that, Hey, here's my task for the day. This is what I'm doing.

00:24:03.400 And this is why it's important that it's, that I need to get them done. This is how it falls into,

00:24:07.800 into helping the rest of the team. This is why the rest of the team is counting on me to do these

00:24:11.920 things. And this is why strategically, if I don't do these things, the whole team is going to be let

00:24:16.500 down. And therefore you are intrinsically motivated to get the things done. Not because I'm, I'm

00:24:22.460 imposing discipline or accountability on you, but, but, but because you understand the mission and you

00:24:27.160 want to accomplish it. And when I have a 15 people that are, have that attitude, we got a team that is

00:24:31.980 rocking and rolling and doing outstanding. Now, of course that doesn't mean that I never check on you

00:24:36.720 and maybe, you know, when I, when we first start working together, maybe I'm checking you every

00:24:41.000 two or three days to make sure you did X, Y, and Z. But then after, you know, a month of working with

00:24:46.520 you, and I know that you understand why you're doing what you're doing. And I know you're, you're

00:24:49.620 a solid worker and you're getting after it. And I know that if you have a problem, you'll raise your

00:24:54.140 hand and say something to me. Well, then I don't have to check on you and I have to hold you

00:24:57.000 accountable every day because you've, you've been led and, and now you're taking leadership yourself

00:25:01.440 and making things happen. So from a leadership perspective, accountability, it's a tool

00:25:06.100 that you have to use sometimes, but it's also kind of a crutch. It certainly shouldn't be the

00:25:10.960 main tool of leadership. Now, from an individual perspective, well, for me, it's just about

00:25:17.580 discipline. And, and people say, how do you get discipline that you get discipline just by,

00:25:22.040 by executing discipline. You don't allow, you don't rationalize with yourself. You don't have

00:25:26.660 any conversations with yourself about, well, I'm tired today or, well, it was a late night last night

00:25:31.860 or, well, it won't matter if I just miss one workout or, well, I can put off writing this

00:25:36.700 stuff tomorrow, or I can put off this job until next week. All those little rationalizations that

00:25:42.200 you do with yourself are just lies. And what you do is you tell them to be quiet and then you obey

00:25:47.860 the discipline, which is going to make you a better person. Powerful. And I know coming back to what you

00:25:52.580 said from a leadership perspective, it sounds very in line with what you talked about in extreme

00:25:57.560 ownership of that idea, notion of decentralized command, meaning that you don't have to hover

00:26:01.880 over people. You don't have to micromanage people. You lead them effectively and allow them to do their

00:26:05.980 work. That is affirmative. Makes sense. You also talk a lot about some of the weaknesses. And I think

00:26:11.160 you, you cover this in the book as well. You talk about the hurdles as being a weakness and

00:26:18.320 procrastination. Let's talk about procrastination for just a minute, because this is something I know a

00:26:22.440 lot of guys deal with. And I think I know your answer to this, but I'm really curious how a man can

00:26:27.060 better overcome his procrastination. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you know what my answer is too.

00:26:31.580 I'm not really hard to figure out. If you, if you're supposed to do something, you do it.

00:26:36.440 That's it. And, and, and one thing that is good, and if you need to do this, it's, it's a good tool

00:26:42.840 that'll help you out. Write the stuff down that you know you're supposed to do tomorrow. And then when

00:26:47.600 you wake up, you do the stuff that you're supposed to do. That, that, that's, that's, that's what you do.

00:26:52.520 I, you know, I used to make checklists after checklist, after checklist of things that

00:26:57.000 I needed to do. And when I was in the military, I did that. The, I don't have as many things to do

00:27:03.520 now because they're all just bigger chunks of things, but, but yeah, it's a great, it's a great

00:27:10.300 way. And then what you do is you wake up in the morning, you look at the list of the things that

00:27:13.840 you're supposed to do and you do them. So if I'm hearing you correctly, basically when you're

00:27:17.880 talking about writing these things out the day before or whatever it may be, you're basically

00:27:22.000 eliminating barriers to you actually getting that thing done. Yes. I know for me when, when,

00:27:27.320 when working out, wasn't a priority as big of a priority as it is now for me, it was simply a

00:27:32.780 matter of knowing what I was going to work out to the next morning. It was having my gym close out,

00:27:36.800 having my drink out, having everything ready to go prior to me waking up and actually going into the

00:27:41.560 gym. Yeah. And that sounds great. And that sounds cool. And a lot of people talk about that and you

00:27:46.360 should definitely do that. And if you, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, get up, get up out of bed and do

00:27:50.940 what you're supposed to do, work out. That's it. And also make sure if you need to download

00:27:54.640 psychological warfare. Yeah. Psychological warfare will get you out of bed from, from most,

00:28:00.520 for just about anybody. I know for me, I wake every once in a while, I'll wake up and I'm like,

00:28:04.680 I don't want to get up. And I just hear these words like, what would Jocko do? And then I just

00:28:08.580 get up and I go do the work. Check. What about fear? I know a lot of guys are afraid. You know,

00:28:14.420 I started this business, for example, two and a half years ago, you you've written three books now,

00:28:19.080 by the way, my son, I told my son, I was going to be talking with you today. And he said,

00:28:22.620 tell him that the way of the warrior kid is awesome. He loved that book. So I just wanted

00:28:26.120 to pass that message along. Well, thank you. Appreciate it. That I actually, I actually really

00:28:31.600 enjoy that book and it's kind of cool to read because I wrote it from the perspective of a

00:28:35.620 10 year old kid. So it's almost like I didn't write it. And when I read it, I think, wow, this kid's

00:28:40.480 cool and he's having a cool experience. But then I think, oh yeah, I actually wrote that, wrote that. So

00:28:45.180 yeah, it's a great book. And the feedback I've gotten from that book has been, been just very

00:28:50.180 fulfilling to see kids that are starting to train jujitsu, starting to eat better food, starting to

00:28:56.500 study harder in school, starting to ask their parents for a pull-up bar so they can get stronger.

00:29:01.660 It's, it's been great. That's been very rewarding.

00:29:04.040 I know for me, it's been, it's been valuable in my family's life because I look around at society and I

00:29:09.780 look around at school and I look around at the things that our kids have to deal with. And

00:29:13.820 man, it's tough. And I just want to equip and empower them with all the tools they need to be

00:29:17.920 able to stand on their own two feet. And it's becoming more and more difficult. It seems like.

00:29:22.100 Yeah. Well, that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book. You know, one of the reasons why I wrote

00:29:25.360 Way of the Warrior Kid was because when I was raising, I got four kids and as I was raising my

00:29:29.800 kids and I would be out shopping for books for them, it was like every book was encouraging the kids

00:29:37.160 to be weak. And the one that pushed me over the edge was a book about pirates. And I grabbed it

00:29:43.760 from my son and I got, you know, I picked it up and I'm looking through it and I think, you know,

00:29:48.940 it's a pirate book. I mean, pirates, how pirates are pirates, right?

00:29:53.100 They're not weak. They're anything but weak.

00:29:55.060 Right. They're attacking people and they're, they're, they're pirates. And I get this pirate book 0.83

00:30:00.420 and these pirates were anything but pirates. They were, they were just really pathetic human 0.99

00:30:05.260 beings. And so I said to myself, this is ridiculous. And that's one of the things that 1.00

00:30:09.860 pushed me to, to write Way of the Warrior Kid so that that kids could say, you know what? It's okay

00:30:14.080 to, to want to be strong. It's okay to want to be smart. It's okay to want to do better in school.

00:30:19.840 It's okay to want to stand up to your, to other people if they're trying to pick on you. Yeah,

00:30:25.500 that's okay. And, and the outcomes in the book are, I think prove that that's, that actually is a,

00:30:31.480 is a very good way to live. So I want to come back then to what I was going to mention. And I

00:30:36.080 went off on a, on a tangent there and that is the notion of fear. Was there any doubt in your mind,

00:30:43.040 uncertainty, voices that said you have no business writing a kid's book? I mean, what did that actually

00:30:47.360 feel like for you as you were considering writing this book or, or any of either of your other books as

00:30:51.780 well? Not really. I mean, the, the old, I guess the closest you would say was writing the first

00:30:57.580 book, Extreme Ownership. And the only thing is, you know, I was raised in a culture of the quiet

00:31:02.380 professional and we don't talk about what we do. And so that book, I mean, obviously I was writing a

00:31:08.560 book with my, with my brother, Leif Babin. And we talked about that for a long time before we actually

00:31:13.580 said, okay, let's do it. And, and what we knew that we needed to do was number one, represent the,

00:31:19.460 the, the, the, the seal teams, the way that we thought they, and knew they should be represented

00:31:24.060 and also make sure that we point out that the seal teams are just one military organization

00:31:31.720 of all the military who are out there risking their lives and making incredible sacrifices

00:31:38.000 for this nation and for our freedom. And so we wrote heavily about the forces and the soldiers and

00:31:45.620 Marines that we worked alongside of in the battle of Ramadi. And, and I think the other piece is,

00:31:50.960 you know, from my, from my brothers that are still in the seal teams, you know, when they started reading

00:31:56.260 the book and the reason that I think it's been, that it's accepted by within the seal community

00:32:01.160 is because we didn't, we didn't try and make ourselves out to be something that we weren't.

00:32:08.980 You know, the guy that's in that book that I, me, that's me. That's what I was like when I was in the

00:32:14.040 seal team. That's what I was like now. I didn't embellish anything or, or, and, and, you know,

00:32:18.500 you've read the book. The book is not about how, how great I was. The book is actually,

00:32:22.500 a lot of it is actually about mistakes that I made and what I learned from it and what mistakes

00:32:27.180 Leif made and what he learned from them. And so that's why I think there was a little fear with

00:32:32.320 that book and, and how my brothers in the seal teams would react to it. But once guys started

00:32:38.360 reading it, the feedback was awesome. And so for the kid's book, I had didn't, did no fear at all.

00:32:44.080 None. I I'm writing what I want and I know that kids out there need it and discipline equals freedom.

00:32:50.100 Same thing. You know, I'm doing, I'm doing what I want and, and I'm putting word out there for people

00:32:56.320 to the best of my ability to, to try and help them sort themselves out and move further along in

00:33:01.620 their lives. And, and it's through lessons that I've learned because I've been, you know, far from,

00:33:06.300 I'm far from perfect. And it's the same thing with my podcast. You know, my podcast is what I want to

00:33:11.140 talk about. And people have told, given me all kinds of advice since the beginning on what I

00:33:16.120 should do and shouldn't do. And, uh, I, I always listened to people's advice, but I, I go with my

00:33:21.800 gut of what I want to talk about, what people I want to talk to, what events in history I want to

00:33:26.680 cover. There's been people told me, don't make it too long, bring on guests. So you're not,

00:33:31.900 you're not the only voice and don't talk about all this violence and horrible things. And if you

00:33:37.680 listen to my podcast, it's, it's very long. There's not many guests. And I talk about some

00:33:42.420 pretty awful and horrendous things that have happened in the world. So I'm, I'm not afraid

00:33:47.980 of, of doing what I'm doing. Cause I think I'm doing it for the right reasons.

00:33:52.060 Well, and if I don't want to put words in your mouth, but based on what I'm hearing you say,

00:33:55.140 it sounds like your goal and your mission. And of course, what I've seen of you drives you to do

00:34:00.500 these things in the face of maybe getting some pushback from the seal and special operations

00:34:04.600 community, or the average listener to your podcast, it's the mission that drives you past

00:34:09.760 the fear. Is that accurate? Yeah. And like I said, with the seal teams,

00:34:13.940 of course, in the beginning, I didn't know what people's reactions was going to be because they

00:34:18.420 didn't know what I was going to be doing. But once, once people saw what I was doing and there's,

00:34:22.960 you know, I hear from seals, every podcast that comes out, my brothers, they send me a text and say,

00:34:28.180 yeah, it was great, man. And, and so it's awesome. It's, it's, it's great stuff. And

00:34:32.880 yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not really afraid of what's going to happen. If someone doesn't like

00:34:36.760 what I'm doing, I'm okay with it. What do you suggest to somebody who might be,

00:34:40.400 because I think there is a lot of people out there who have grand visions and ideas for what

00:34:44.420 they want to do in the future. And for whatever reason, they're scared about failure or scared about

00:34:50.560 the, the, the feedback or the ridicule from others. What do you say to somebody like that?

00:34:55.200 Well, you know, if you're that scared of something, maybe you should just not do it and go away and

00:35:01.060 hide somewhere else where, where no one will bother you in a nice comfort, comfortable place,

00:35:05.420 maybe with some nice pillows and a down blanket.

00:35:10.580 So just get over it is what you're saying.

00:35:12.980 Yeah. I mean, if you believe in what you're doing and you're doing it for the right reasons,

00:35:15.840 there's nothing to be afraid of. What's the worst case scenario? So someone doesn't like what

00:35:19.940 you're doing. Okay, cool. They can, I mean, especially if it's something, it's anything,

00:35:24.940 what are you going to do? You're not forcing something down someone's throat. If you don't

00:35:28.280 want to listen to this podcast, just turn it off. You don't want to look at the, what I built. Don't

00:35:32.180 look at it. You don't want to buy what I made. Don't buy it. You know, that's the way it is.

00:35:36.280 That's the last thing you should be worried about is like what other people are going to think of what

00:35:40.180 you're doing, which actually there's a dichotomy of that because, you know, as you could hear in my,

00:35:45.120 when I just said about the SEAL teams, even though I don't really care what people are

00:35:48.360 thinking, the people that you do care about, you want to do something that is going to make them

00:35:52.380 proud. And so if you're thinking that what you're going to do is going to be viewed poorly by people

00:35:58.280 that you respect, well, then maybe you should rethink what you're trying to do. But if you

00:36:02.060 think people that you respect are going to like it, then you're on the right path. And if it's people

00:36:05.960 that you don't care about or people that you don't respect and they don't like you, good. That's a

00:36:09.180 badge of honor. Bring it. You bring up a really good distinction because I think there is this notion that

00:36:14.720 we shouldn't care what anybody thinks and F everybody else and I'm going to do my own thing.

00:36:19.540 And yet here you are talking about taking into consideration what the people you care about think

00:36:25.380 and have to say.

00:36:27.100 Well, yeah, if I respect someone, then I respect their opinion. And if somebody tells me, hey,

00:36:32.940 you did this, that wasn't cool. And here's why. And there is someone I respect and I respect their

00:36:38.300 opinion. And perhaps I need to make some adjustments because their perspective being detached from what I'm

00:36:43.200 actually doing might be better than mine. So I have no problem listening to people that I respect.

00:36:49.020 And I think, you know, it's just part of being a humble human being. If you just say, hey, screw everyone

00:36:52.900 else. I'm the man. I'm going to do whatever I want. And your opinion doesn't matter. Well, I guess you can

00:36:58.620 just do whatever you want and we'll see how that works out for you.

00:37:01.640 Right. So what coming back to discipline, what do you feel like comes first? Because I think there's this

00:37:07.180 idea that you just have to get your mind right first. And then there's the idea that says, no, you just go

00:37:12.160 take action and then the mindset will follow. Is it one or the other? Is it both? How does this work?

00:37:17.700 Well, it's pretty simple. Those two things actually support each other. And I talk about this

00:37:23.780 with in a bunch of different ways. There's dichotomies, right? So if there's a day where

00:37:29.380 you're mentally not feeling like doing something, guess what you do? You physically just go do the

00:37:33.220 work. You just go do what you're supposed to do. And there's times where you physically don't feel

00:37:38.100 like something and you just mentally have to go and make it happen. So those two things support

00:37:42.800 each other. And if one of them is, is a little weak one day, well, you just, you know, I talk

00:37:46.780 about going through the motions, you know, for, for instance, for a workout and you can do this with

00:37:50.780 anything. You can go, you can go write a thousand words that you didn't feel like writing. And maybe

00:37:55.220 you can only salvage 280 of those words, but guess what? You got 280 words that you didn't have before.

00:38:00.860 If you, if you feel all tired and weak and you don't feel like working out,

00:38:04.260 just go to the gym and go through the motions. And people say, go through the motions with a

00:38:08.960 negative connotation. But for me, going through the motions means you still did it. So go in there,

00:38:13.960 go through the motions. I'd rather do that than stay in bed and sleep and be warm and cozy when I

00:38:22.580 could be getting stronger mentally and physically. It sounds like it's more of an emphasis on the

00:38:27.780 effort and the actual process of doing rather than what that actually is going to produce.

00:38:32.880 Actually, what you are going to produce is something as opposed to nothing. So if you,

00:38:38.720 like I said, if you write a thousand words and you can only keep 250 of them, well,

00:38:43.600 that's better than zero. And if you go to the gym and you break a sweat and you gain a little,

00:38:48.320 maybe if you didn't even lift any weight, you just gained some flexibility, just went in there

00:38:51.200 and stretched. You did produce something which is better than nothing. And you also, importantly,

00:38:57.220 you overcame that mental weakness. You maintain the discipline and those things build up over time.

00:39:03.120 You talk about discipline your body and you free your mind. Is this the place that you feel like

00:39:09.520 a lot of people should start? Start with the body, start training, start exercising,

00:39:13.720 start feeding your body the right fuel. Is this a great place to start when you want to develop more

00:39:17.560 discipline? It's a great place to start. It doesn't take it. You know, that's another thing I say is

00:39:22.120 people say, what do you, how do I get up in the morning? Get up. Don't think about it. Don't

00:39:25.980 rationalize it. Physical is a great place to start. And it's clearly the body and mind are

00:39:32.180 connected because the body is, the mind is inside your body and there's no doubt that they're

00:39:39.000 connected. And so if you don't know where to start, yeah, get up and start moving your body

00:39:42.680 and then start figuring out what you're going to do with your mind and find a path for that as well.

00:39:47.500 Right on. Well, Jocko, we're bumping up against time. I know we've talked about a lot. Obviously,

00:39:51.920 guys, you want to just pick up a copy of the book, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. You will

00:39:55.880 not be disappointed. Jocko, I want to ask you a couple of questions as we wind down. The first one,

00:40:00.360 and I've heard you answer this before. I'm curious about your answer this time. And that question is,

00:40:03.940 what does it mean to be a man? You know, to me, being a man is doing what it is you're supposed

00:40:12.660 to do. And I think people get wrapped around all these different things, but you as a person,

00:40:19.720 you know what it is you're supposed to do in your life. You know what's going to make your

00:40:23.440 life better. You know what's going to move you in the right direction. You know what's going to help

00:40:27.840 not only you, but also your family, your community, society, and the world. You know

00:40:33.540 what the right things to do are. And in my mind, a man is the person who does those things on every

00:40:40.180 level, from the individual level to his family level, to taking care of his community and his

00:40:45.800 nation. Powerful, powerful. How do we connect with you? How do we pick up a copy of the book? And

00:40:51.300 where do we find out more? You can get the book anywhere that they sell books. So anywhere that

00:40:56.580 they sell books, you can get the book Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. It's a different

00:41:00.860 kind of book. There's no book has been like this before. It's different. As far as finding me,

00:41:06.200 my podcast is called Jocko Podcast. You can find it on jockopodcast.com or you can search iTunes or

00:41:13.580 Google Play or any of the other podcast platforms. I'm on social media. I'm on Twitter at Jocko Willink.

00:41:24.060 I'm on Instagram at Jocko Willink. I'm on Facebook as Jocko Willink. And I'm on the interwebs a lot.

00:41:32.820 So if you reach out, I'll reach back. Right on. So what you're saying is we can find

00:41:36.920 you wherever, wherever we are, we can find you. Yeah. I'm not hard to find after a lifetime in

00:41:42.240 the shadows. I am no longer very difficult to find. What's that transition actually been like

00:41:47.840 for you transitioning from, like you said, the shadows to now this public figure in this public

00:41:52.020 life? It's been, it's been interesting and it literally happened. It would happen very,

00:41:57.320 very quickly. I was on Tim Ferriss's podcast and you know, his podcast gets millions and millions

00:42:03.980 of downloads. And so that was incredibly fast. And then two months later, I was on Joe Rogan's podcast,

00:42:13.220 which he gets millions and millions. And so those, those two things really kind of brought me out in

00:42:18.880 the public, uh, light along with my book, which, you know, what I wrote with life extreme ownership

00:42:23.220 that that happened. And then with my podcast now it's, it's, it's been, it's crazy. It's what's

00:42:30.020 cool about it though, is the people that I talk to and communicate with are, are great people. And I

00:42:34.580 learn a lot from everybody that communicates with me and talks to me and reaches out to me and tweets me

00:42:38.900 or sends me a book. I got so many books now for, to review on my podcast. They're just piled up.

00:42:45.120 It's, it's awesome. And I'm always learning from all these different people and it's great to

00:42:48.760 interact with people. Right on. Well, Jaco, I want to tell you, I appreciate you. Of course,

00:42:52.760 I appreciate your service and sacrifice to, to our country and in your service there. I appreciate how

00:42:58.380 you show up, uh, your level of discipline and the way that you're doing things has been inspirational

00:43:04.900 for me, starting this podcast, launching this business, writing my own book now.

00:43:08.860 And, uh, I just want to take a minute and thank you for the way that you show up.

00:43:13.120 Well, thanks man. And, uh, thanks for your service. I know you were in Ramadi, uh, maybe a year or two

00:43:19.060 before me. I think I left, well, I think I actually left thinking about this. Um, it was June of 06 that

00:43:27.060 I left. Okay. So we, we actually overlapped. There was, there was a little bit of an overlap.

00:43:31.620 Yeah. Cause I got there in, so, Oh yeah. Cause you were, you, you were under the one,

00:43:35.880 one AD then. Oh, sorry. Not the one, one AD. You were under the two, two, eight,

00:43:39.020 the two, two, eight under, uh, the triple deuce out of Utah, but then we attached to the unit out

00:43:43.420 of Pennsylvania. Yep. That's, that's the two, two, eight out of Pennsylvania under Colonel

00:43:47.000 Gronsky at the time. Who's now a general. Yeah. What a great group of guys. I always talk about

00:43:51.200 the national guard unit that was on the ground when we showed up, the two, two, eight and folks like

00:43:55.140 yourself and how awesome it was to see just good Americans out there who had, you know, day jobs back in

00:44:01.460 America who were out there at the time in the, in the toughest part of the world, uh, taking a fight

00:44:05.900 to the enemy. So thanks for, thanks for getting out there and getting after it, brother. Right on,

00:44:09.440 man. And I'm going to take you up on the, uh, on the jujitsu training and schooling, if you will,

00:44:14.320 uh, sometime in the future, in the near future as well. Coming in. All right, brother. Talk soon.

00:44:18.540 All right, man. There it is, guys. What did I tell you? Powerful interview and conversation

00:44:24.160 with a powerful man who is probably one of the most qualified men to talk about discipline

00:44:28.540 and how you and I can develop more of it. Uh, we talked about a lot today. We covered his

00:44:33.940 newest book, which if you're listening to this today, the day it's being released, his

00:44:38.120 book just came out. So you want to make sure you get a copy of that. You can get the link

00:44:41.800 for that book. Discipline equals freedom field manual and the way of the warrior kid and extreme

00:44:47.460 ownership and his alarm clock track, which we talked about psychological warfare on our website

00:44:53.420 at order of man.com slash one three five as an episode 135. Again, guys, if you would,

00:45:01.140 please be sure to share this one. As I know more men need to hear the message of discipline.

00:45:05.680 And if you pick up a copy of the book or just enjoyed the interview, make sure you let Jocko

00:45:10.000 and I know we're both active on Twitter. So make sure you tag us there. And then last thing,

00:45:15.280 the iron council, if you want to develop more discipline in your life, sometimes having the

00:45:19.580 tools and the framework and maybe even a gentle nudge will help get that kickstarted for you.

00:45:25.660 So head to order of man.com slash iron council to learn more. I will look forward to talking with

00:45:31.160 you on Friday for a Friday field notes, but until then take action and become the man you are meant

00:45:36.140 to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

00:45:41.400 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

00:45:49.580 Thank you.

Order of Man - October 17, 2017

135： Jocko Willink ｜ Discipline Equals Freedom

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