136： Lewis Howes ｜ The Mask of Masculinity
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Summary
New York Times bestselling author Lewis Howes joins me to talk about why men are failing on so many benchmarks, how to recognize and confront what is holding you and I back as men, and why the masks we wear hinder our personal growth.
Transcript
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Recognizing that we as men wear masks might just be one of the most difficult self-evaluation
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processes that we can go through. It's difficult because sometimes we've been wearing the mask for
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so long that it actually becomes part of who we are and how we define ourselves. My guest today,
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New York Times bestselling author Lewis Howes, joins me to talk about why men are failing on
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so many benchmarks, how to recognize and confront what is holding you and I back as men,
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why the masks we wear hinder our personal growth and the nine masks of masculinity.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your
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own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily
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deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is
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who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself
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a man. Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and the founder of
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this podcast, The Order of Man. I am sure that you are aware by now that we have had a killer,
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a killer lineup over the past couple of weeks. First, Gary John Bishop. Last week we had Jocko
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Willink and this week we've got Lewis Howes. It's like the perfect trifecta or hat trick,
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if you will, of podcast guests. I'm glad you're tuning in and catching all of this. It's what we're all
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about. Interviewing some extremely successful men, unpackaging their ideas and their thoughts
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and their insights, systems, processes, whatever it may be, and then we're delivering them straight
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to you. So if you haven't already done so, make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. You
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keep tuning in and we will keep bringing on a killer lineup. Guys, just a couple of quick
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announcements and housekeeping items today. First, if you wouldn't have not already done this,
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head over to facebook.com slash groups slash Order of Man and join our Facebook group. We've
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got almost 38,000 men now having some follow-up conversations about this podcast and about any
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other conversation you might want to have. And second, if you gain any value from this conversation
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or Lewis Howes' new book, give us both a shout out on Twitter or Instagram, Facebook, wherever you do
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your social media thing. Let us know what you thought about the show. I always like hearing from
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the men and how these podcasts are impacting their lives. Guys, I want to jump just right into this
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show today since it's such a good and an interesting topic. I'll admit when Lewis sent me a copy of his
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book, I resisted. I resisted the first chapter too. I talk about it a little bit in the podcast and the
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interview itself. But the more that I read through it, the more that I was fascinated with this idea
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and notion of the masks that we wear. If you don't already know, my guest today, Lewis Howes,
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is a New York Times bestselling author. I know a ton of you are already familiar with his work and
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what he's up to with his own company and podcast, which is listened to millions, millions of times
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per month. And it's called the School of Greatness. We had Lewis on the show a while back. I don't
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remember right off hand how long ago it was, but he has released his newest book, The Mask of
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Masculinity. What I enjoyed about this book is that Lewis really pulled back the curtain in his own life.
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And you can tell by the way that he's analyzed who he is and what makes him tick, that this is a
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process that he doesn't just talk about. This is a process that he's actually been through and
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uncovered for himself. He had a lot of success as a professional athlete, which hints at the mask
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that he was used to wearing, only to find himself injured and wondering how he could redefine himself
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and tap into who he really was. So gentlemen, get ready, prepare to challenge some of the thoughts
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about who you are. And let's unpack this idea of The Mask of Masculinity.
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Lewis, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the show.
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Round number two. I'm really looking forward to this one, man. I got to tell you, and I told you
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this a minute ago, this one pushed me outside of my comfort zone. I got to tell you, as I was reading
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through the book, The Mask of Masculinity, I caught myself saying, no, that's not right. No, this is not
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true. No, that can't be how it is. And I resisted this book, but I almost wonder if it's like,
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this is my mask speaking. You know what I mean?
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Some type of Stoic mask. They're hiding behind a literal mask of facial hair.
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That's right. That's right. Yeah. I know we talk about nine different masks, and of course,
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we're going to break this down a little bit better. But yeah, I went through all of these masks,
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and yeah, I've got some in all of them, I'm sure. But out of all nine of them, the Stoic mask is
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definitely the most prevalent for sure. Do you feel like you are sensitive or show emotions or
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share your feelings when something comes up? Or do you kind of just act like you've got it all
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That's a good question. And this is why the book challenged me so much is because
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I caught myself saying, no, guys, don't do that. And so as I started thinking about why
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that was the case, I don't know. I feel like we've got this certain role as men that we need
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to adhere to. And for me, showing emotion in a way detracts from that role. And so that's why
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this was so challenging for me in a good way, in a good way.
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Yeah. I mean, listen, I think it's life's a dance and it's an art. It's not this like paint by
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numbers thing where you're like, OK, in this situation, I have to be strong and never show
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emotion. And then when I'm alone by myself, when no one can see me, then I can, you know,
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be upset or scream out loud or cry or whatever I want to feel. I think it's a dance and it
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evolves over our entire life. When we're kids, are we suppressing our tears and emotions or
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are we allowing them to flow through us and on to the next moment because we express them?
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And I think as we become conditioned as young boys that are told not to cry and to suck it up
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and to be a man and don't be a pussy, don't be a little girl, all these things. When we hear these
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things over and over again, we start to wear this mask of, OK, if I express myself, I'm going to be
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wronged and shamed and made fun of and looked less than a man. And so therefore, let me never show
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emotion. Even when I'm super freaking hurt, even when I'm pissed, even when I want to kill someone,
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even when I feel like they're bullying me, even when I feel like my girlfriend just screwed me over,
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I'm going to feel like I have it all put together and just put on this armor and weight of suppression.
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How does that support men? That's what I want to know is how does that? I think there's a time and
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a place to express ourselves and share our emotions. But I want to know is how does that support a man
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who isn't capable of expressing themselves over the long haul when it continues to build up
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this wall of inability to just relate to people? You know, I'm talking about extreme cases when men
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don't share themselves or express themselves in any sensitive way. And it's just from rage and anger.
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That's how they tend in general to express what the stoic mask is like, okay, at some point it's all
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going to build up inside where you've got to let something out and then you go kill someone or you
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go get, you go get a bar fight because you just like, can't hold back the emotional breakdown or
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whatever it may be. It's like, that's the one you like are afraid is going to go get a gun and shoot
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people in a movie theater because they've been bullied and picked on and they've been suppressing
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their emotions for so long and they look stoic, like they got it all figured out and there's
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no emotion, but then something snaps and all the rage comes out. So this is extreme obviously,
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but I'm just thinking about what are the things that those masks that hold us back from actually
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feeling clear in our hearts. And that's what I feel like it is. It's all the emotions that we feel
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from every moment. And men feel just as many emotions as women from my experience. I don't
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remember crying less than a girl when I was three, four, five, seven years old. I probably cried
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more. You know what I mean? I was scared. I was always insecure. I was always felt alone. Didn't
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feel like anyone loved me. I didn't feel like anyone had any friends. I felt like I was the dumbest
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person in school and I just like was always sad. And I learned to not express that, you know,
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late in elementary school because it wasn't cool. And I learned to stuff down those emotions.
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And I remember I was so driven to prove all the boys and girls and whoever wrong about me from my
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childhood, from them making fun of me, then them saying I was stupid, then saying I wasn't good
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looking. Whatever it was, I was like, I'm going to prove the world wrong. I'm going to become the
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biggest, fastest, strongest human that I can be, the best athlete I can be. So I'm the most desired
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man in the world because of my sports experience, because of my achievements, because of my,
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the money that I make. And I use those things to build up my self-worth. And when I would achieve
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these things, what I would achieve all American status and pro football, it was like, I was
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miserable and angry within moments after achieving these lifelong goals and dreams. And what I realized
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about four or five years ago is that these achievements didn't bring me the fulfillment
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and the intimacy and the love and the connections and the relationships that I wanted. It just made me
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feel like it still wasn't enough. And I had to go for more. And that's why at 30, I finally realized
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like, okay, Lewis, something isn't working. Like I'm constantly achieving things at the highest levels,
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everything I write down on my goals and circle and hang on my wall and, you know, train for decades
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and make come true. They aren't enough. Something isn't working. And at 30, I finally woke up to the
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fact that, huh, maybe all these things I've been doing and maybe these lies I've been told my whole
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life about what it means to be manly or a man or whatever, isn't really true. And let me look into
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this more. And, and that's really kind of how the journey started for me. Yeah. I love it. So would
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you say that your, your prevalent mask then, and I'm sure, like I said, you have elements of all of
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these things is the, uh, the athlete mask. Yeah. The athlete mask for sure. You know,
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the aggression mask, I would say I had, and, you know, still have for moments and, uh, the alpha
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mask, the invincible mask at some times. And even though like, it's funny, the know-it-all mask,
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I used to think I knew it all, all the time, even though I was probably like the dumbest kid in school,
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I put on this persona of like, no, I know this. I know what I'm talking about. And, um, to kind of
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prove my worth. The thing is I've worn all these masks. There's nine different masks that men wear
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and, or have worn, and I've worn them all at different stages of my life. And I'm going to
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wear them all probably for the rest of my life at different stages as well. I think it's going to be
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impossible to remove the mask fully. But what I have done is been so aware of them that I'm able to
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notice when they show up or when I feel like I'm triggered in a situation that when I put it on,
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I'm able to breathe, take a deep breath and ground myself. And I think the, you know, a true man is a
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man who can be so self-aware and be aware of everything around him, everything and everyone
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around them. He can assess the situation. He can see what's happening. He can see the fears in other
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people. He can see the insecurities in other people. He can see the, the, the struggle that may
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happen in the future. He can assess it with so much calm, poise and grace because he sees it in
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himself. And he is aware of his own masks and the things that hold him back in his own insecurities,
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in his fears. He doesn't try to hide them. He doesn't try to say they're not there. He embraces him.
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He's like a Batman that it says, I embrace the bats of my life and I'm going to conquer them
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by embracing them and putting them in the forefront of my life, not hiding behind it,
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but actually I'm going to put a bat suit on and say, this is my biggest fear. So let me live in
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this fear. And that's what I think is powerful. When a man is able to assess any situation, when he's
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able to connect with all types of human beings, it doesn't matter what age, what gender, gender
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non-conforming, he is able to come from a place of love and acceptance and, and just be able to
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assess things with grace and then move through that experience and that moment with a level of
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service. And I think that's what it means to be a man. I think you bring up a really good distinction
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here because you're talking about noticing the masks. You're talking about recognizing when you're
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wearing that mask. I think in reading the book and just understanding who you are and a little bit
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about you that, that these masks aren't necessarily bad. Like for example, I think about the stoic mask
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and I think about a first responder or a firefighter, a soldier who yes, can recognize the fear, but still
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has to run into the burning building. And so that mask, I think, and I don't want to put words in your
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mouth, but from my perspective is appropriate at times. How do you find the balance between wearing
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the appropriate mask and then setting the mask down and, and, and getting a little deeper?
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Absolutely. I mean, like, listen, these masks drove me to be where I'm at today.
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They, they helped me get to where I am, but they also held me back from having inner fulfillment and
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inner peace. It drove me to be a great athlete. So I wore this mask. However, I was just unable to
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take it off in so many situations. So I wasn't able to connect or listen to other people and hear where
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they were coming from throughout life because I was so focused on my needs, my vision, my goals,
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and projecting that I'm going to be the best athlete in the world. A hundred percent of the
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time. When I was broke, I put on the material mask. I was like, okay, I'm going to focus on the car.
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I'm going to focus on the big house. I'm going to focus on the fancy watch. I'm going to focus on
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the private jets. I'm going to focus on like, this is what I want. I want to achieve these things.
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I want to have millions of dollars and it drove me to make a lot of money. Like I was, you know,
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in a few years I made my first million dollars after being broke on my sister's couch and it
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drove me, but it also drove me to getting no sleep. It drove me to getting 60 pound, gaining 60 pounds
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and people calling me fat Lewis when I was always an athlete and healthy. It drove me to missing out
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on having true intimate connections because I was so focused on money and making more money at all
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costs. And it hurt my brand because I did things that weren't in alignment to who I was, but just
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to make the money. And it made me feel very unfulfilled at the end of the day. The money in my bank account
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was nice and the mask drove me to actually make more money. But what else was I missing out on
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in life? And that's what I think it is. It's being aware and saying, okay, I'm going to put on this mask
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right now and I'm going to get in the gym and train because this is my vision to be a greater athlete
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or lose the weight. But if I'm living in that mask a hundred percent of my days and I'm unable to relate
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to other human beings and I'm unable to connect and I make it all about me and it's a selfish needs that I
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feel like we missed the point and we're never going to be fully fulfilled and have inner peace. And that's really
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what this is about. It's like, how can we feel like there's not this huge weight on our shoulders
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as men that we're carrying this burden all the time and we've got to be strong for everyone else
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around us? Why can't we learn to allow the burden to just fall off our shoulders and gracefully move
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through our experiences in life with a loving demeanor, with an open heart, with the ability to take
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slow, deep breaths as opposed to be tight and tense. There's so many men that I see, stoic men,
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that are just like so tight and tense. It's like when we are in this place of wearing a mask,
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we're never ever able to get in fully flow state because we're doing something that isn't
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We're forcing. We're forcing. And therefore there's always going to be tightness and tension
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through forcing and putting on a mask because we're projecting something that isn't our authentic
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selves. Anytime we try to do something that isn't us, we will never be able to get into full flow
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state. And the only way to achieve at the highest levels and to feel the ultimate rush is to be in
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flow. You know this. And so it's like, why do anything else except for be in flow the majority
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amount of time that we can? And that's what it's all about.
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I think in hearing you and of course going through the book and doing the research,
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like I think that guys run into trouble and you, you bring up a lot of really good case studies of
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men that from what I can tell you still admire, but you can recognize their mask that they're
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wearing is that you get into trouble when you define yourself by the mask that you wear rather
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than it just being a temporary action or way that you behave in a certain environment or
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Yeah. That's makes sense. One of the things you talk about is that men aren't fundamentally flawed or
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broken. I really appreciate you saying that because I think there is this misconception and
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a lot of times I think people will either think that, that they're the, you know, the alpha,
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for example, the alpha mask, or they're broken and flawed. And yet you talk about being somewhere
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in the middle of that. We're not flawed or broken. We just have some things that we need to work on.
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Yeah. And I think we're conditioned to be someone we're not. We're conditioned to show up in a way
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that society, peers, friends, parents, whatever coaches condition us to be a something they want
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us to be. And therefore we start to step into a different way of being that isn't truly authentically
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who we are. And it may please other people. It may meet their needs, but it hurts our needs and it hurts
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us. And I believe it's hurting the world in a big way when men aren't willing to say, you know what,
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this is who I am. I know who I am. I know my, the things I need to work on. I know what I'm really
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great at and it's okay. This is who I am. And I'm going to live in this place and I'm going to
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constantly learn, develop and grow. How does it hurt the world? You talk about hurting the world.
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How do you, how do you see that playing out? Oh man. I mean, look at all of the negative news on
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Facebook constantly that's happening. All of these things that are happening, wars, violence,
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racial issues, gender issues, they all happen from a place of fear and people being afraid and
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wanting other people to conform to their ways, to their, their, their viewpoint of the world,
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as opposed to being an acceptance of who someone is. Now, if someone's physically hurting something
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or, you know, breaking the laws and things like that, I get it. But when someone's just being
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themselves and believing in what they want to believe in, and they're not hurting anyone,
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but someone just says, no, that's not right. That's not, that's, that's not good. I don't
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want you to do that. I don't want you to have that community because it's bad. It's not what we
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believe in or something. And then they start wars and they start freaking marching across the country
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with torches or whatever the people are doing. And they're, you know, there's so many, so much
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conflict, so much conflict right now, as opposed to acceptance. And I think a real man is able to be
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graceful and accept others for who they are, as long as they're not hurting someone or attacking
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physically harming, you know, their tribe, their home, their family. But if people just are being
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themselves in the world, why attack them? Why, why go after them? It's usually because we're insecure
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about something where we feel unsafe because someone doesn't believe the same thing we believe.
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Yeah. I mean, you talk about the common thread in all nine masks that you go through is being
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weakness and fear. And I think that's what you're alluding to now.
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Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think a real man is confident in who he is and is confident that
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not everyone's going to think the same way he does and it's okay.
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How do you recognize what mask you're wearing? It's hard because we are in this own box. And I talk
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about the stoic mask, just to go back to the first question you asked me about which one I wore.
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And I'm thinking about this just through our conversation. My dad was out of the picture by the time I was
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three years old. I was raised by my mom and my sister was around. And so I was raised by women. So I almost
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in a way, look at this and think, okay, am I overcompensating? Because I only see from the
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outside what a man looks like. And I can only see that stoic side versus it being engaged with a man
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on a daily basis, right? My father on a daily basis and understanding the pain and struggle
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Yeah. I have a lot of the stoic mask in me as well because I just, my brother went to prison when I
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was eight and I was sexually abused when I was five. And my father, even though he would cry at
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certain times, like during movies or certain moments in life, I would see him tear up.
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But then other times he was so angry and aggressive and, you know, he'd be loud and scream and fight
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with my mom. And so I was just constantly confused. I was just like, uh, I see the soft tender side of
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my dad and he told me he loved me and tuck me in a bed at night. But then he would just like snap
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and scream at me and like beat me and, you know, do other stuff that I was just like,
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what, you know, there's these two sides. It was like almost bipolar in some sense where he was
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like so loving until he got divorced. He and my mom got divorced. And then he was like the most
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loving human being in the world. There was never a moment of him being upset, yelling, angry,
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passive aggressive. He came from such a place of acceptance, love, and service from the age of
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14 to 22 until he got into a car accident and was in a coma for three months. He's still,
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he's still alive today, but he is a shell of himself. He doesn't, he can't have an emotional
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conversation and, and connect. And he's like a 14 year old brain now. So it's kind of, so it's like
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my dad is still alive, but he's, I don't have a relationship with him where there's, it's like,
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I'm there to support him type of thing. And so for me, it's just kind of a journey of like,
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how do you fucking live life? You know, how do you like, how are we supposed to live this life
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based on, you know, you grew up without a father in your life and had to kind of be the man of that
00:22:42.860
household, I'm assuming, and, and be tough and, you know, be okay when everyone else is stressed out
00:22:48.300
or things are hitting the wall. You had to be, you know, stoic to make sure that someone had a rock
00:22:54.100
to lean on. And that's probably what conditioned you for a lot of your experiences in your life.
00:22:59.760
And it's, it's just a challenge, man, because there's no easy answer to this. The way to
00:23:04.600
understand the mask is, you know, look at the nine masks and say, okay, which one of me resonates the
00:23:10.140
most? You know, in each chapter, I talk about a different example of a man who kind of personifies
00:23:15.900
or has personified that mask at one point. And I think you kind of know when you look at it and
00:23:21.100
you see these, you kind of know what mask you're going to know. I mean, yeah, you're going to know
00:23:24.620
if you're, if you're a comedian, who's always like coming from a place of humor, every, every
00:23:29.860
situation in your life, you have to say a joke, you have to dismiss it. And you're always the funny
00:23:36.180
guy or the class clown. You're, you probably have the Joker mask on because you, um, you know,
00:23:42.100
you want to, you're, which means you're probably suffering and have a deep pain inside. And that's why
00:23:48.180
you're using humor to deflect a lot of these things because you don't want to address the
00:23:52.440
pain or the, the feelings that you have. These are all things to not feel. They're all things
00:23:59.680
to use to not address our fears, our insecurities, the things that we feel we're ashamed of or
00:24:06.800
guilty of the unforgivable things that we've done or haven't done. That's what it is. We lean,
00:24:13.340
you know, the sexual mask is the man who's defined by constantly conquering any woman that he can.
00:24:19.540
You know, maybe he, you know, I'm just making an example here, but maybe he never had a girl like
00:24:24.800
him before. And so it became his goal to just constantly conquer women subconsciously. You
0.71
00:24:29.700
know, it's just like, I'm going to conquer women. I'm going to keep, it's never going to be enough.
1.00
00:24:32.880
And why settle for one when I can have them all? And why get intimate when someone's going to break
00:24:38.300
my heart? Like they did when I was 16. So I'm never going to fully commit. And I'm just going
00:24:43.680
to keep having fun. I'm going to seduce every woman. So they all desire me and then I'm going
0.98
00:24:47.680
to leave them. So they can't leave me and hurt me. You know, it's just these things, these patterns
00:24:52.260
that we go through. There's the invincible mask, which is a man who does not feel fear. A man that
00:24:58.320
takes all the risks in the world, whether that's, you know, uh, betting as a life savings on a company
00:25:03.940
or cliff diving or skydiving constantly, uh, smoking and drinking excessive amounts, whatever
00:25:10.140
it may be, he feels invincible. Like nothing can take him down. And he's just, he's just
00:25:16.060
constantly doing, he's in the doing constantly as opposed to feeling, being, interacting, having
00:25:22.600
conversations with people, learning. And it's all about just, I'm going to take on the world
00:25:27.420
and nothing can take me down until his parachute doesn't open and he dies.
00:25:33.940
Gentlemen, I could talk with you until I'm blue in the face about the iron council, which
00:25:37.920
I have in the past and how powerful it is. But rather than do that today, I'm going to
00:25:42.280
have one of our members, Joshua Laycock, share his experience of the brotherhood with you.
00:25:46.900
When I joined the iron council, I gained access to all the things I'd expected would be there.
00:25:50.780
You know, the brotherhood, the discussions, the video calls, it was great. The thing that
00:25:54.500
was wild was what happened when I stepped away from the computer. It was the way I started
00:25:59.120
to speak with myself. I don't know. I started to see myself for who I really was and who
00:26:03.000
I wanted to be as a man. That was the unexpected part of being in the iron council. And it really
00:26:08.640
is very hard to put a price tag on that. I don't know. It was, it was the self-reflection
00:26:12.020
that it stirred up in me. I started to see myself in a different light. I didn't always
00:26:16.860
like what I saw. It can be hugely uncomfortable when you start to peel away those layers.
00:26:21.360
But out of that, I don't know. I also started to see and then realize the potential I knew
00:26:25.440
I had for the first time in a very long time to reach my life's goals. I think the experience
00:26:30.740
is different for everyone and that's what makes it such a powerful thing. For me, the
00:26:34.460
iron council was not only about working towards becoming a better man, but also discovering
00:26:39.180
the kind of man I already was. And I just didn't realize was there all along.
00:26:43.320
So there it is guys, straight from the mouth of one of our members. If you are interested
00:26:47.400
in learning more about the iron council and what we're all about, head to orderofman.com
00:26:52.400
slash iron council. Now let's get back to my conversation with Lewis.
00:26:58.280
Why is this so difficult for guys? I mean, it's difficult for me. I'll, I'll be straight
00:27:02.560
up with that, but it seems like for men in particular, it's very difficult for us to share,
00:27:07.800
to feel, to open up, to expose our weaknesses or the word that we hear a lot is vulnerability.
00:27:13.380
Why do you think this is so difficult for guys?
00:27:15.680
You know, here's the thing. I don't want to say that men have it harder than women.
00:27:19.980
We, both men and women have our own difficulties. And this is just kind of like the, the pressure
00:27:26.780
that men face with the gender, the, the roles, the, the, the expectations of men and the expectations
00:27:36.600
from peers, what they say to them, the coaches mentality from locker rooms, parents expecting
00:27:41.720
young boys to turn into something, uh, girlfriends saying they want someone sensitive and open
00:27:47.580
and vulnerable. But then when they are, they're like, why don't you just man up? Yeah. And no,
00:27:52.540
you need to be strong for me. You need to, I need to feel comfortable that I can be invulnerable in
00:27:56.420
your arms. And so I need you to man up right now. And so when a man hears this over and over and over
00:28:02.200
again, and when someone's not happy with who they are by being sensitive, someone, you know,
00:28:07.760
pushes them aside and is uncomfortable having those conversations with a man when they're
00:28:11.980
showing emotion or having a vulnerable, tender moment and the man doesn't feel accepted,
00:28:17.660
of course, we're going to put on this mask. Like we've got things figured out because
00:28:22.300
we want to feel loved and accepted just like women or, uh, humans, uh, non-gender conforming
0.59
00:28:29.140
human beings. We all want to feel accepted for who we are. And when we're not accepted for who we
00:28:35.220
are, we project through a mask to be something we're not so that we're accepted by other people
00:28:41.000
with that mask. And then we just started living with that math. That becomes our identity.
00:28:45.700
The men in general wear an identity that is not authentically who they are. And I think that's
00:28:52.200
where the challenge of inner suffering and unfulfillment and this feeling of like never
00:28:57.980
feeling good enough comes into play. If our inner world is suffering, it doesn't matter how much we
00:29:03.400
achieve on the outer world. I look at, uh, Robin Williams, probably the, one of the top comedian
00:29:09.220
actors of all time who everyone made everybody laugh, who brought a smile, a tear, happiness to
00:29:17.500
every human being who watched a film to show, uh, interacting with him in person. And yet he was
00:29:24.600
unable to find inner peace and inner fulfillment. Right. Why, why was he unable? And he took his life.
00:29:31.920
Why was someone who makes the whole world happy, unable to find inner happiness himself? I don't know,
00:29:38.260
but maybe I can guess that he probably didn't address a lot of the things he was feeling inside
00:29:43.660
because he used his Joker mask to project certain things. And he was accepted by wearing that Joker
00:29:50.760
mask. People loved him for wearing it. So why would he ever want to not experience that love when everyone
00:29:56.480
loved him for that projection that he was putting out there? Why change it? It's working. It's working
00:30:02.620
for him. He's a celebrity. He's making tons of money. Any door he wants to open, he can have it.
00:30:07.280
Everyone wants a piece of him for wearing the mask, but it wasn't his a hundred percent authentic
00:30:12.680
self. I'm assuming I'm guessing. And therefore he was unable to just share his feelings because
00:30:19.820
maybe, maybe we're like, Oh, I don't know this side of you. And I'm just guessing here. And I,
00:30:24.000
and I may be completely wrong, but I'm guessing that maybe he wanted to share his feelings at some
00:30:28.480
point. And people were like, I just want the funny Robin back. Like, where's the funny guy?
00:30:32.360
It's almost as if taking off the mask becomes more of a risk than just continuing to wear the mask
00:30:38.640
that's proven to, in his case, work. And a lot of our cases to work to some degree.
00:30:42.980
It's the biggest risk in the world to take off the mask and to look at ourselves and say,
00:30:46.900
who am I? Who am I really? I've been defined as a man by wearing this mask for however many years.
00:30:54.020
And it's worked. It's worked. I got the supermodel girlfriend because I was driven by money and
00:31:01.620
materialism. I, or I was a great athlete or whatever. I got the girl. It worked. I built a
00:31:09.300
billion dollar business. It worked. I, uh, you know, won a Superbowl. It worked. But why do some
00:31:17.260
of the greatest athletes, greatest musicians commit suicide when they retire? You know?
00:31:22.640
Right. And we say things like, well, they threw it all away. We were on top of the world and yet
00:31:26.940
they probably weren't inside. It's a sad example of the lead singer on Lincoln Park, which recently
00:31:32.740
happened. It's like, what's his name? Chester. Um, I'm not sure his last name, but I think it's
00:31:37.020
Chester's first name, but it's just like the saddest thing in the world to me that, and I don't know
00:31:42.060
all the details. I don't know really what happened, but from things I've heard, it's just like,
00:31:46.480
this guy was on top of the world. This guy sold out stadiums and people love their music and they've
00:31:53.000
been performing for, I don't know, over a decade. Oh yeah. At least at the top of the world, all the
00:31:57.240
money in the world had four, I think four kids, amazing wife, like had great friends. Like if you
00:32:04.180
look at his life, he had it all, but what was missing inside that drove him to feel unfulfilled,
00:32:12.000
that drove him to feel like it's still not enough. It's still not enough or I'm not good enough or I
00:32:18.220
need to do this. Like, I don't know what he was feeling and I don't want to try to assume like I
00:32:23.020
have any clue, but it's just, you know, the pressures that men feel. And then we get caught
00:32:30.280
up wearing the mask and then when we are accepted for it and people love us for that mask, it's hard
00:32:35.820
to say, huh, but that's not really who I am inside to yourself. And if they only knew the amount
00:32:41.980
of insecurities that I did have, and if they only knew the shame that I do feel, and if they only
00:32:47.140
knew what I've really been through, would they love me still? Would they accept me still? Would
00:32:52.720
they be my friend? Would I lose all the money? This is the thing that I faced four years ago when I
00:32:58.840
finally, for 25 years, I didn't tell anyone that I was sexually abused because I was so shameful,
00:33:05.640
guilty, insecure, embarrassed, all these things I was feeling. And I was like, if anyone
00:33:11.960
ever knew this about me, that this happened when I was five, that I was taken to a bathroom and raped
00:33:17.700
by a man that I didn't know. If anyone ever knew that, my life would be over. My business would
00:33:25.000
crumble. My girlfriend would break up with me. My parents would disown me. My friends would think I
00:33:32.580
was a weak man because I was abused. Like, this is the conversation I had for 25 years.
00:33:39.280
And these are cognitive distortions. Have you heard of that term or looked at that at all?
00:33:43.180
Yeah. It's unreal. The conclusions that we jump to that are just absolutely not founded in any
00:33:48.840
reality. That's it. And here's the thing. At 30 years old, I was going through a dark, dark time.
00:33:56.700
Like, listen, now I'm a white male in America and I had money and all these other things,
00:34:01.860
but my inner world was going through a dark time. It was like, why do I feel so like I was suffering
00:34:08.720
inside? There was zero peace in my heart, in my mind. I was going through a bad breakup that was
00:34:15.220
just super emotional, up and down, back and forth. And I was taking all this anger that was built up,
00:34:21.140
that I was like, I felt like I had to be patient and loving and kind all the time. And I just like,
00:34:25.440
had this anger because I couldn't express myself to my girlfriend or anyone. I feel like I couldn't
00:34:29.700
express my feelings. And so I would go play pickup basketball and just, it was kind of like an outlet
00:34:35.080
for all this built up emotion to take it out on people in the basketball court. And every time I'd
00:34:40.140
go out there, I would scream at people. I would shove people. I would step to people. It's like,
00:34:44.720
I wanted to fight. I wanted them to like touch me so that I could just find a way to unleash as much
00:34:51.100
anger as possible and show how powerful of a man I was against these other lesser men.
00:34:58.360
And one day we were in a heated basketball game and I ended up fouling this guy back and forth.
00:35:06.480
We were trash talking. He was bigger than me, older than me. And we get to a point during this game
00:35:12.860
where kind of enough was enough for him, I guess. And we were just kind of hard fouling each other and
00:35:17.500
this and that. He ended up heads butting me. And it was like the, all the triggers came out and it
00:35:23.280
was like the ultimate alpha aggression male. I've seen that red too, man. I know what that looks like.
00:35:29.500
It was like, I was another human being. And I stepped into this raging person and just pummeled
00:35:36.740
this guy to the point where finally it was broken up by a couple of people got us off each other.
00:35:42.100
And I looked at the guy's face and I was like shaking, trembling, shaking of the fear of what
00:35:47.580
I just did to this person's face. And I remember running back to my place like a scared little boy
00:35:53.420
and like shaking, looking in the mirror. And I was like, who the fuck are you? Like, who are you?
00:36:00.440
Why did you do this? What is wrong with you? And that's when things started to open up for me to be
00:36:05.840
like, okay, I need to look within. This is not okay. I could lose everything by getting into some stupid
00:36:11.500
pickup fight. I could one, someone could stab me, shoot me, break a bone. You know, they could
00:36:17.960
arrest me. I could be, you know, my whole reputation could be gone because I wasn't able to
00:36:24.020
express myself in a more loving way. And I allowed myself to wear this mask and build it up for 25 years
00:36:32.660
and start unleashing it on people because I was angry at what had happened to me.
00:36:36.460
What were some of the first steps that you took? I mean, you came to that conclusion,
00:36:39.280
you're sitting there looking in the mirror and you're like, this has got to change. What does that
00:36:45.740
Luckily, I went to a workshop, an emotional intelligence leadership workshop, probably kind of,
00:36:50.480
you know, similar environment to the stuff you guys do at a order of man where you guys do your
00:36:56.300
intimate kind of three day workshops. This was a workshop that was a five day experience.
00:37:01.960
It was one of the greatest things I've ever done for myself. It was, and I almost left after the
00:37:07.000
second day because I was just like, it was confronting my ego. Everything was confronting
00:37:12.060
my ego. And I was kind of like, I already know all this stuff. This is all, you know,
00:37:16.820
I teach this person. The same thing I went through as I, as I started to read your book,
00:37:20.680
it sounds like. Exactly. Yeah, I get it. And I was like, I know this stuff. I teach this shit,
00:37:24.720
right? And, um, there were, it was a bunch of exercises, games, real life scenarios. And you're with
00:37:31.600
a group of, I don't know, 50 or 70 people and you're partnering up with strangers. You're doing
00:37:37.380
small group exercises and it's all designed to confront things that don't work for you that hold
00:37:44.900
you back in your life and that have been holding you back your whole life. So a lot of it is
00:37:49.780
addressing like your childhood, your parents, like addressing things that you've never said to your
00:37:54.560
parents that you want to say. It's just like communicating these feelings or these experiences
00:37:58.580
that we've never been able to let go and that have been holding us back or that have been weighing
00:38:02.760
us down and that have been building these masks up on us. And there was a few instances of this
00:38:09.500
experience that just finally got me to open up a little bit. Like I was so guarded and so like,
00:38:14.660
nah, these people don't know me and I've got it all figured out. And who are the other people in
00:38:19.580
this group? It's kind of weird. We played a game. The premise of the game at the end of it,
00:38:25.080
the lesson, the moral of the story was there was two teams and both teams ended up losing the game
00:38:30.720
and the object of the game was to win. And so for me, when I heard this rule that the object was to
00:38:36.100
win, I went into my mode of, I need to win at all costs, whatever it takes. That's the rule of the
00:38:41.840
game. That's the objective. That's what we want to do. That's it. It's to win. At the end of the game,
00:38:46.220
it was like total chaos. Both teams lost. And the lesson was you guys, this is how you live in your
00:38:53.560
life. You guys are constantly coming from a place of, I need to win and the other team needs to
00:38:57.500
lose. Or I need to win in my relationship and that means my girlfriend needs to lose. Or I need to
1.00
00:39:01.880
win in my, you know, the company needs to win. And they were like, you can both win. You know,
00:39:07.960
there was a way for both teams to win this game. And yet we were so in our heads of like, oh no,
00:39:13.040
only one winner. Then it woke me up like I'd heard the concept of win-win before, but for whatever
00:39:18.560
reason, it didn't make sense to me until this moment when I experienced it. And I was in my bed
00:39:24.180
at night after this day of the workshop. And I remember being like, wow, where in my life have I
00:39:30.900
always come from this place of I need to be right. I need to win. And that means someone else needs to
00:39:35.700
be wrong and they need to lose. And how has that shown up pretty much in every situation in my life?
00:39:41.780
The loneliness that I felt by like me being right and me winning, that mean everyone else had to be
00:39:48.820
second place. I was like, no longer am I going to come from this place. I'm going to come from a
00:39:54.460
place of win-win in every situation and business, making sure that any deal that I get what I need
00:40:01.300
and they get what they need, but I'm not trying to screw anyone over in my relationship, working on
00:40:06.280
place of, okay, hearing the other person, them hearing me and saying, where can we both feel good in
00:40:11.220
this conversation, in business and relationships, in sports where I'm the most competitive, I can
00:40:18.080
still win. And the other person can, even if I went on the scoreboard and they lose, can I do it
00:40:24.360
with grace? Can I do it so that I'm a good sport and a good, as opposed to rubbing it in their face
00:40:29.980
and being aggressive the whole time and making them feel like a piece of crap. And can I lose from a
00:40:34.160
place of, oh, what's the lesson? What did I learn where I still won something?
00:40:38.120
Even sports. I mean, you take a look at sports and this is a thought that has crossed my mind
00:40:42.020
recently is that it is a competition. Yes, but it's also cooperation because if you look at on
00:40:47.200
the football field, we all, both teams adhere to a set of rules. That's cooperation in order for
00:40:52.780
everybody to get better. That's it, man. That's it. There was a moment also in this workshop, which
00:40:58.380
was getting to my, my moment of the tactical stuff. There was a moment where we'd gone through a few
00:41:04.160
days of exercises and kind of going through stuff in the past that doesn't work for us.
00:41:09.580
And the facilitator of the workshop was like, okay, we're moving forward. We've addressed
00:41:13.840
everything in your past that has hurt you or upset you or made you this way or made you guarded or
00:41:19.620
whatever it may be. And we're going to move forward. We're going to move forward in creating a new vision
00:41:24.620
for your life in the future of who you want to be and what do you want to create in the world?
00:41:28.620
And he said, if there's anything you have not addressed yet, and we went over a lot of crap.
00:41:34.460
So like people were, you know, in tears, people are like going through all this stuff, like
00:41:38.000
constantly. It was like, it was emotional. It was a, you know, there's different exercises where
00:41:42.680
you're just like screaming. It was like kind of out there, but it was like super effective.
00:41:46.920
And he goes, if there's anything at all in the past that you have not addressed,
00:41:52.020
now is the time to address it or you'll never get to talk about it again.
00:41:55.160
In front of everybody you have to bring in front of everyone. He was like, now's the time. He's
00:41:58.820
like, now's the time to let it like to share. Otherwise we're moving forward. So you better
00:42:02.880
clear everything in the past. Otherwise it's going to hold you back still. And I was like, okay,
00:42:06.980
thinking about it, I was like, oh, you know, my brother went to prison for four years. Yeah,
00:42:11.260
that sucked. My parents got divorced, you know, bullied, being in the special needs classes,
00:42:15.360
like all these things I addressed. And I was like, oh, that time I was raped in the bathroom by a man.
00:42:20.040
And I was kind of like, oh, why have I never talked about this? Yeah. Why have I always like
00:42:25.320
just put it to the side? And I was like, if I don't share this now, I'll probably never share it.
00:42:30.520
So I, I like just, my body stood up. I stood up in front of the room. I couldn't look anyone in
00:42:35.700
the eyes. I looked down the entire time because I was so ashamed and terrified at what I was going to
00:42:39.700
say. And I walked through for the first time, moment by moment, every detail of what happened to me
00:42:46.420
when I was five. And then I sat down afterwards and just kind of like my body, I had zero control.
00:42:53.240
I was just bawling. My body was like shaking. And luckily there were these two women on either side
1.00
00:42:59.400
of me that were like hugging me and holding me and they were crying. And it was just like,
00:43:04.060
I felt so ashamed and I felt so scared of what people were going to think about me that I ran out
00:43:10.600
of the room and outside. Like it was in like a hotel ballroom and I ran outside of the hotel
00:43:17.300
into kind of like this back alley. And there was like a fence and I, I just put my head against
00:43:22.320
the fence and my arms, like in my, in my head. And I was just like looking down, like just crying.
00:43:26.840
Cause I was just like so terrified of, you know, sharing this and having people see this is who I am.
00:43:34.200
And one of the most beautiful things happened to me that still gives me chills when I think about
00:43:38.960
it. One by one, men came up to me from that room that came outside and they hugged me. They looked
00:43:46.440
me in the eyes and they were like, you are my hero. I was sexually abused and I've never been able to
00:43:52.220
talk about it. And I've judged you this whole workshop as this like jock egotistical man.
00:44:00.220
Yeah. They were like, I've just been judging you. And for you to do that is like one of the most
00:44:05.860
amazing things. And it makes me think completely different about you. I respect you. I trust you
00:44:11.780
now. I like, you're my hero. And one by one they said things, you know, similar to that. And it was
00:44:18.720
just like, wow, you mean by actually sharing who I am or experiences I've been through and revealing
00:44:25.400
these things about me and taking off the mask and saying, this is who I am.
00:44:30.220
Take it or leave it. It actually built deeper trust, deeper connection, deeper intimacy,
00:44:36.840
um, and deeper levels of leadership. Like people were like, I will follow you anywhere. And I was
00:44:44.180
like, really? Like, like, yeah, the exact opposite of what you thought happened. I was like knowing my
00:44:49.280
deepest, darkest secrets and knowing my, my biggest fears and my biggest insecurities. Now you want to
00:44:54.580
follow me. I was like, not that I was looking for people to follow me, but they were like, I just trust
00:44:58.980
you. And whatever you do, I'm behind. And I was like, wow. And as I started to go down and this
00:45:03.800
was four years ago. And as I started to, I started to share one by one with my family members, which
00:45:08.640
was terrifying. Then one by one with friends. Then I started sharing more and more openly. And I,
00:45:14.520
and I eventually shared on my podcast publicly about seven, eight months later. And just like the
00:45:20.680
amount of impact it has made by doing one simple thing, being authentically myself, it has changed
00:45:28.720
the course of my relationships. It has changed the course of my business. It changed the results of my
00:45:34.820
accomplishments that I achieve. I feel so much more fulfilled when I achieve these things that I've
00:45:40.640
always wanted. And it's just been the biggest game changer by taking off the masks or being aware
00:45:46.640
of them when I, cause I still wear them. It's not like I'm this perfect human being, but being aware
00:45:51.380
of it and saying, you know what? You're right. I'm, I'm, I'm being like an arrogant asshole right
00:45:56.460
now, or I'm, I'm like focused on this and you know, let me take a moment. Let me own this. You know,
00:46:01.800
let me take responsibility and apologize. And here's what I'm committed to moving forward. And it's just
00:46:06.760
been like this. Again, it's a dance. It's an art. There's a lot of pressures for men. I get it.
00:46:12.660
But when we start to just take off the mask a little bit, I'm telling you, your relationships
00:46:17.180
are going to transform. And the key to success in life is relationships. And the key to successful
00:46:22.780
relationships is being authentically you. I love it, man. I love it. And obviously we didn't,
00:46:27.940
we're only able to break down the specific tactics for each one of these masks, which you do put in
00:46:33.160
the book. And I appreciate that. But I think at the end of the day, a lot of what you talked about,
00:46:36.780
as far as what you can do comes down to being real with yourself and then figuring out a way to be
00:46:41.420
real with others. So I definitely appreciate that. Well, Lewis, we're bumping up against time,
00:46:45.400
man. I want to ask you just a couple of questions as we wrap things up here today. The first one,
00:46:49.560
and we've been talking about this for the last 45 minutes or so, is what does it mean to be a man?
00:46:55.480
To be in service, to be authentically and fully yourself, to strip off the masks and to live a life
00:47:03.480
of service. Powerful, man. Powerful. How do we connect with you? How do we buy the book? How do we
00:47:08.420
connect with you? How do we learn about everything that you've got going on? And it is a lot. I
00:47:12.280
follow you. It is a lot that you have going on. How do we figure this stuff out, man?
00:47:15.600
Yeah. I mean, you can get the book anywhere, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or go to maskofmasculinity.com
00:47:21.580
and they'll send you to all the places that get the book. And I share more on my podcast as well
00:47:27.740
Right on. We'll link that all up. And we got some exciting things you and I planned for some Facebook
00:47:31.920
lives and some other stuff. So stay tuned into that and then we'll make sure that happens.
00:47:37.100
Lewis, I got to tell you, man, I've been following you for years. I've followed you when you shared
00:47:41.620
your story and when you inspired me to share a lot of my personal demons and stories as
00:47:47.580
well. So you have been personally impactful in my life. I want to tell you, I appreciate
00:47:52.840
Thanks, my man. And you've got an opportunity to really impact a lot of men with your group.
00:47:57.320
And just to talk about the stoic mask, you have really, you're from a place of leadership
00:48:03.680
because you're running these groups and these groups of men and this Facebook group
00:48:08.200
and the site that the more you continue to take off that mask, you're going to give other
00:48:13.600
men permission to be the man they've always wanted to be. So I encourage you to, when you
00:48:18.560
recognize that, is to dive in a little deeper and say, you know, let me do the most uncomfortable
00:48:23.000
thing right now. And obviously know when to dance and when the right timing is and things
00:48:27.640
like that. But I think the more you do that, the more you're going to make a bigger impact
00:48:31.480
on your community and you're going to see your community grow in a tremendous way.
00:48:35.800
Right on, man. I appreciate that. And I appreciate you. Thanks for coming on.
00:48:40.440
There it is, guys. I told you it would be a good one. I think you'd agree that it was.
00:48:44.520
I hope you're challenging some of the things that you think about the way that this world
00:48:47.720
works and the way that you operate in it. That's the point of the show to get us all thinking
00:48:52.880
differently about our lives. If you're listening to this the day this podcast is being released,
00:48:58.000
Lewis's book is available right now. Today, you can head to order of man.com slash one
00:49:03.040
three six to get a link to the book along with everything else that you might want from this
00:49:08.100
episode. And again, if you would make sure to shoot me and Lewis a message on Facebook
00:49:12.220
or Twitter, Instagram, wherever you do the social media thing, and let us know what you
00:49:16.720
thought about this show in his book. And as I sign out today, remember what our member of
00:49:21.400
the iron council Joshua had to say about his experience in the brotherhood. If you are interested
00:49:25.720
in learning more, claiming your seat at the table, head to order of man.com slash iron council
00:49:30.620
order of man.com slash iron council. I will look forward to talking to you on Friday for our Friday
00:49:36.420
field notes, but until then take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening
00:49:43.100
to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you
00:49:48.120
were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.