Order of Man - 137： The Fight Against Child Sex Trafficking ｜ Tim Ballard

00:00:00.000 Today, guys, I've got a different kind of podcast lined up for you.

00:00:03.120 My guest is Tim Ballard, and he is the founder of Operation Underground Railroad, which is

00:00:07.560 a nonprofit organization designed to save children around the world from child sex trafficking.

00:00:13.420 Initially, my wife introduced me to Tim's work, and after following him for some time,

00:00:17.640 I'm inspired by the good he's doing in the world in the wake of some horrific atrocities

00:00:22.520 more men need to know about. 1.00

00:00:23.900 Today, we talk about stories of his team's rescues, how these young children are being

00:00:28.120 helped to recover, how to find a calling in life, how to avoid the flinch when going

00:00:33.720 undercover, and the fight against child sex trafficking.

00:00:37.060 You're a man of action.

00:00:38.560 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:40.000 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:42.940 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:47.360 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:52.420 This is your life.

00:00:53.520 This is who you are.

00:00:54.920 This is who you will become.

00:00:56.280 And at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:01.960 Men, what is going on today?

00:01:03.120 My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order

00:01:07.260 of Man.

00:01:08.380 Whether you're new to the show or you've been here for years, which is actually really

00:01:13.100 strange to say that we've been going that long, but we have, I want to welcome you to

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00:01:20.960 podcast available today.

00:01:22.560 Today, we're talking about everything that makes a man a man, specifically with his ability

00:01:27.400 to protect himself and those that he cares about, provide financially, mentally, emotionally,

00:01:33.180 and spiritually, and preside or lead himself, those he loves and those he has an obligation

00:01:38.920 for.

00:01:39.740 Now, just a couple of quick announcements today.

00:01:42.500 If you haven't already done so, make sure you join our closed Facebook group.

00:01:46.480 We've got hundreds of guys joining each and every week.

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00:02:00.000 And second, if you do enjoy my conversation today, I'm sure that you will with Tim Ballard,

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00:02:09.220 Both of us want to hear from you and always enjoy knowing what you think about the work.

00:02:14.000 And also guys, make sure if you would share this episode with your friends, your relatives,

00:02:18.460 your colleagues, your coworkers, whoever, this is how we get the word out about the work

00:02:22.400 of the order.

00:02:23.240 Now, before I get into the meat of the discussion today with Tim, I do want to thank our show

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00:03:42.860 All right, guys, with that said, let me introduce you to a man who I admire because not only did

00:03:47.960 he see a problem, he actually did something about it.

00:03:51.580 My guest today is Tim Ballard.

00:03:53.060 He's the founder of Operation Underground Railroad.

00:03:55.300 It's a nonprofit designed to rescue the victims of child sex trafficking.

00:04:00.580 To date, Tim and his team have rescued 745 victims.

00:04:05.400 They've assisted in the rest of 365 traffickers around the world.

00:04:09.720 Originally, Tim was working for 12 years as a special agent with the Department of Homeland

00:04:14.400 Security, but because he was frustrated with the red tape and the inability, he had to actually

00:04:20.960 remove these children from the horrible situations that he was responsible for investigating.

00:04:26.120 He set out on his own.

00:04:27.400 In 2013, he left that department and founded Operation Underground Railroad.

00:04:32.080 Today, we're going to talk about that process, the good he's now doing in the world, how to

00:04:36.960 take action on the problems that you see in the world, and how to get involved in this fight.

00:04:43.140 Tim, what's going on, man?

00:04:44.180 Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:04:45.740 Thank you.

00:04:46.200 It's an honor to be here.

00:04:47.020 Yeah, I've been following you and, of course, what you've been up to for some time now.

00:04:50.940 And I've had hundreds of conversations with some very successful men, but every once in

00:04:54.800 a while, I'm privileged and have the honor of speaking with somebody who I think is a

00:04:58.840 true man because he's actually doing something towards being a better man and something that

00:05:03.000 I consider important in the role that we play as men.

00:05:05.520 So I appreciate and I'm honored to have you on the show today.

00:05:07.420 Well, thank you so much.

00:05:08.300 That means a lot.

00:05:08.880 Thank you.

00:05:09.500 So we like to jump right into things because we don't have a lot of time.

00:05:12.800 But the question I want to lead off with is, and maybe even just helping us understand

00:05:18.080 the seriousness of child sex trafficking, because I think there's a misconception about

00:05:22.900 how prevalent this actually is.

00:05:24.380 And in doing research, as I was preparing for this interview, it's pretty staggering.

00:05:27.940 So if you could just enlighten us a little bit to what is actually going on in the seriousness

00:05:31.660 of what we're dealing with.

00:05:33.160 It's the greatest plague maybe ever to hit the earth, in my opinion.

00:05:36.520 And the sad part about it is it really is hidden.

00:05:39.120 People don't know how massive it is.

00:05:40.820 I mean, there are more people alive today in slavery than ever before in the history

00:05:46.000 of the world.

00:05:46.560 In fact, you could add up all the slaves that ever existed during the 300, 400 year of the

00:05:51.700 transatlantic slave trade, not to take away at all from the horrific thing that that was.

00:05:55.900 But you could add all those people who were in slavery over 400 years, and there's still

00:06:00.400 more alive than all of them combined.

00:06:03.280 One staggering statistic that kind of puts it into perspective, with the money that's made

00:06:07.940 in human trafficking every year, you could buy every single Starbucks franchise, every

00:06:13.700 single NBA team, and still have enough money to send every American child to college.

00:06:19.500 Oh my goodness.

00:06:19.940 So it is that enormous.

00:06:21.880 And millions of these people in slavery are children, about five to six million are children.

00:06:26.680 And our organization focuses mostly on how to find them, how to go for them first.

00:06:31.380 And so that's what we dedicate ourselves to.

00:06:32.800 I mean, this is just, I caught myself the other day, knowing that we were going to have

00:06:36.620 this conversation, wondering and asking myself, how is this even possible in 2017?

00:06:42.980 Obviously, the money is the lure.

00:06:45.140 If that wasn't there, it wouldn't exist.

00:06:46.820 But how is it that this sort of thing is even possible?

00:06:50.260 It's a great question.

00:06:51.360 It's something I've pondered often.

00:06:52.920 I've been doing this for about 15 years now.

00:06:54.600 And it's hard for me to comprehend a person's desire to abuse a child this way, whether it's

00:06:59.720 through slave labor, or whether it's sex abuse. 0.93

00:07:03.100 I've interrogated dozens of these guys who create the demand, these people who are buying

00:07:06.960 kids.

00:07:08.100 And what I've come to realize is there's a sex addiction going on like never before,

00:07:13.260 which creates the demand for this.

00:07:15.260 It starts with people who are so hooked into pornography, a fraction of those people, it

00:07:20.700 becomes a drug for them.

00:07:21.960 And I'm not an expert in psychology, but based on the guys I've talked to, and they tell me,

00:07:26.020 you know, the guys who we arrest.

00:07:27.380 And they say, look, I became a sex addict, and the adult porn just wasn't doing it for

00:07:30.980 me anymore.

00:07:31.580 And so I started moving on to something else.

00:07:33.220 And the brain functions in a way that pornography serves as a download of chemicals like dopamine.

00:07:39.420 That's what they want, right?

00:07:40.680 And so like marijuana, you eventually progress to something more effective because your brain's

00:07:45.120 getting used to the old stuff, right?

00:07:47.120 And that's how these guys talk about it.

00:07:48.380 And the science backs it up.

00:07:50.080 They need to shock their system to get that rush, to get that brain drop, that chemical drop.

00:07:54.180 And so they start looking up 20-year-old girls, and then 15-year-old girls, then 10-year-old

00:07:59.480 girls. 0.97

00:07:59.960 And then before you know it, they're traveling to Thailand or to Mexico to have sex with a 0.99

00:08:03.940 10-year-old girl. 0.99

00:08:04.980 And that is happening in mass.

00:08:06.920 I mean, the demand is through the roof, which gives us these ridiculously high numbers.

00:08:11.820 And that's what we're combating.

00:08:13.500 I think I can see with pornography because I think it's very easy to hide your actions and

00:08:18.040 the behavior and websites that you're visiting.

00:08:20.180 But to me, you talk about sex trafficking.

00:08:23.260 How do you hide?

00:08:24.080 Is it just the countries that are not as engaged as I can see that maybe we are?

00:08:28.920 And I'm sure that the United States has a long way to go.

00:08:31.000 Is that all it is?

00:08:32.200 It's exactly what it is.

00:08:33.180 The U.S. does have a long way to go, but the U.S. is leading the charge.

00:08:36.880 I'm proud to have worked with Homeland Security investigations for 12 years, and I almost worked

00:08:42.220 exclusively child trafficking cases.

00:08:44.140 But the real supply is coming from these countries that don't have sufficient response.

00:08:50.540 They don't have well-equipped or resourced law enforcement officers.

00:08:54.220 We're in about 15 countries now, and almost every country we've been in, when we did that

00:08:59.380 operation with them, we always worked with the police.

00:09:01.720 That was their first child trafficking operation.

00:09:05.620 I'd say 90% of the time.

00:09:06.920 They just don't have the resources, and they don't know what to do or how to begin.

00:09:10.940 And we come in and basically say, look, there's 15 different pieces in rescuing a child, and

00:09:16.820 we have all 15.

00:09:17.800 Which pieces do you need?

00:09:19.140 And we start giving them, whether it's the technology, the training, the computers to

00:09:22.820 find the kids who are being sold on social media sites, or whether it's undercover operators

00:09:27.580 to play the part of the American sex tourist who needs to sit on this beach until someone

00:09:32.180 offers a child, and we catch the whole transaction on hidden cameras.

00:09:35.880 So we offer them this, and the idea is to empower these governments.

00:09:38.960 Once they figure out how to do it, we can kind of start pulling out, and they are now empowered

00:09:43.680 and equipped to move forward.

00:09:45.940 I think that's really valuable, because I think, and I'm not going to use the right

00:09:49.220 term, because I was about to say easy, and based on the research, I don't think this is

00:09:52.000 easy.

00:09:52.360 But I do think it's easy to just say, hey, we'll do it all forever, and never really

00:09:57.260 empower any government or agencies to actually take care of this stuff on their own.

00:10:00.360 And I think this is how we begin to eradicate it, when we give people the tools and the knowledge

00:10:03.920 and the equipment and experience to be able to do it for themselves.

00:10:06.980 That's exactly right.

00:10:07.740 In fact, I can follow that up with an example.

00:10:09.280 So we did about four operations in a part of Colombia, and every time we pulled out and

00:10:15.560 did less and less, they did more and more.

00:10:17.640 By the time we left, they were doing operations on their own, using our techniques.

00:10:21.720 So then we went back into the country about four or five months after we'd done our initial

00:10:26.140 operation, and we went to the same places where kids would be getting sold.

00:10:30.720 In this particular region in the country, you'd be talking to street vendors who will

00:10:35.060 sell you anything from cocaine to bracelets, and 70% of those know a child trafficker.

00:10:39.980 So if you just make the right question, they'll send you to them.

00:10:42.840 Well, these guys who I know otherwise would have been for a commission, they'd be sending

00:10:46.620 us to the child traffickers.

00:10:48.620 They were telling us, they were warning us, you can't buy kids here.

00:10:52.700 You can't have this conversation with me.

00:10:54.760 Have you not seen the news?

00:10:56.100 Have you not seen that these Americans are getting arrested? 0.99

00:10:58.240 And I'm sitting back, I'm like, yeah, that was me.

00:11:00.240 I was getting arrested.

00:11:01.000 I was undercover.

00:11:02.040 And I was with a Colombian officer who was undercover at the time with me, and he grabbed

00:11:06.320 me and we walked around the alley in the old town of Cartagena.

00:11:09.380 And he said, Tim, he had tears in his eyes.

00:11:11.620 He says, Tim, this is working.

00:11:13.180 Do you see this is working?

00:11:14.940 We are actually rescuing kids who will never know they needed rescuing because the traveler 1.00

00:11:20.840 didn't travel and the trafficker didn't traffic.

00:11:23.560 I mean, we are laying down a deterrent.

00:11:25.240 We are scaring people into entering this black market.

00:11:29.540 And so you hit it on the head.

00:11:30.700 Once you get law enforcement empowered to where they are doing, let's say, one or two

00:11:35.300 operations every month, let's say they rescue 10, week one, two, week three.

00:11:40.120 It doesn't matter, but just keep these guys on the run to where they're scared.

00:11:44.080 Because right now, in most countries, they're not scared. 0.98

00:11:46.320 They have no problem traveling to some of these countries and engaging in sex with children. 0.95

00:11:50.060 And the traffickers have no problem because there's never been a consequence.

00:11:52.400 We are now providing the consequence for the first time.

00:11:55.640 And that's how we're going to eradicate this.

00:11:57.600 I imagine that's such an empowering feeling and exciting feeling for you, for these vendors

00:12:01.240 to say, hey, we can't even have this conversation.

00:12:03.180 And deep down, you're like, your heart is swelling with the work that you've done.

00:12:06.280 That's got to be a cool feeling.

00:12:07.660 Yeah, it is the best feeling in the world to watch a child come out of captivity.

00:12:12.440 I'm really interested in something you said.

00:12:14.300 You said these vendors who are selling anywhere from cocaine to bracelets are now being paid

00:12:18.580 a commission.

00:12:19.240 And I imagine, and I don't know, I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume the

00:12:22.660 situation, but I can't imagine everybody is a quote-unquote bad guy.

00:12:26.720 Like, are these guys trying to take care of their family?

00:12:28.480 Or like, what would possess a street vendor to engage indirectly in this type of behavior?

00:12:35.140 It's so interesting.

00:12:36.360 I'll talk to these guys.

00:12:38.080 They will sit with me and show me pictures of 10 little girls who are ages 11, 12, 13,

00:12:43.240 or younger.

00:12:43.760 And tell me how great they are.

00:12:45.980 Tell me how experienced they are.

00:12:47.640 Or they're a virgin, so they can cost more.

00:12:49.800 And I've got kids, and I see my kids in these kids' eyes.

00:12:53.520 It just breaks me up.

00:12:54.240 And I've got to keep the smile on my face and keep going.

00:12:56.820 And then this guy will turn around and show me pictures on the same phone of his little

00:13:01.640 girl who's in a beautiful dress and on her bicycle.

00:13:04.200 Oh, I got this beautiful daughter.

00:13:05.620 And I'm thinking, how do you live, man?

00:13:08.980 Like, what is your soul like?

00:13:10.880 They just compartmentalize, and it's just a business for them.

00:13:13.680 Now, they know it's evil, because they'll always give us, hey, you know, be careful.

00:13:17.500 This is highly illegal.

00:13:18.380 We can go to jail.

00:13:19.320 So you got to do this to evade the police, and this and that.

00:13:21.720 I mean, they know for sure that what they're doing is super wrong.

00:13:25.140 Of course.

00:13:25.380 But something happened in their brains and their minds, and I don't know what it is.

00:13:29.220 I mean, it's almost demonic, like a demon's taking them over.

00:13:31.840 In my little mind, that's what I picture.

00:13:33.400 Like, you have to be a demon, man, because I don't know how you can sell this kid and then 0.98

00:13:38.060 talk about your wife and kid and not see the crazy irony and inconsistency here. 0.97

00:13:44.340 How do you not jump over the table and just, like, wring these guys' neck?

00:13:47.380 Like, I don't say that in vain.

00:13:48.580 Like, I'm genuinely curious how you maintain composure in these types of things.

00:13:52.320 Is it just an understanding of what the objective is or what?

00:13:55.280 In the beginning, that was very difficult for me.

00:13:57.860 I got better and better at it.

00:13:59.120 The government put me through a lot of undercover training, and the more we did it,

00:14:02.320 the easier it became, but we have little tricks.

00:14:04.920 Like, if he's showing me a kid in person or a kid on a phone, I just picture that little

00:14:08.620 kid's eyes.

00:14:10.000 I have a lot of kids.

00:14:10.760 I have seven kids of my own.

00:14:12.080 Wow.

00:14:12.540 And if I understand correctly, have you adopted a couple of children that you've rescued as

00:14:16.300 well?

00:14:16.820 They're coming home this fall.

00:14:18.120 The two of the kids we actually rescued, they're going to be joining our family.

00:14:20.960 Very exciting.

00:14:21.920 Yeah, it's been an amazing experience.

00:14:23.540 But because I have so many kids that range, you know, from 16 down to one, I can always put one

00:14:29.480 of my kids' faces with one of the victims we're working on.

00:14:31.540 And in the beginning, I used to see their eyes, right?

00:14:34.080 My kids' face and their face.

00:14:35.260 I hated it because it just disturbed me so much.

00:14:38.220 But then I learned to kind of harness it and use it and think, like, I love this kid.

00:14:43.000 This kid is like my daughter.

00:14:44.980 And that's what I focus on when I want to reach across the table and pull these guys'

00:14:48.380 eyeballs out, is if I do that, this child, you know, my daughter in my mind will not

00:14:55.160 be rescued.

00:14:56.180 I have to let them continue. 1.00

00:14:58.180 They have to hang themselves. 0.87

00:14:59.240 I have to make sure that I let this conversation keep going, even if it lasts for days or weeks

00:15:04.320 and sometimes it's been months to seal the deal.

00:15:06.600 I've got to let them keep talking and I've just got to bear it or else I'll lose this

00:15:11.240 kid.

00:15:11.620 Because if I lose great character, he's gone and the kid's gone.

00:15:14.500 So that's my little trick that I use is I think I'm doing it for my daughter and there's

00:15:18.580 nothing I can't do for my daughter.

00:15:20.240 And that's what keeps me calm.

00:15:21.880 That's what lets me still smile in the face of evil and give the guy a hug and go have

00:15:26.860 dinner with him and go to his home.

00:15:28.800 Other operators have used different techniques, but that's what I do.

00:15:32.340 So you bring up other operators.

00:15:33.620 I know the guys that are doing these missions with you are special operations guys, mostly

00:15:38.560 it sounds like.

00:15:39.480 Are they having similar experiences?

00:15:41.100 How does it contrast with maybe some time in the military?

00:15:44.020 What are these guys saying?

00:15:45.420 We have an extensive vetting process.

00:15:47.320 We want the special operators definitely there to help us with security.

00:15:52.400 And if we can get one of them undercover ready, even better.

00:15:57.080 That's the best guy I want undercover.

00:15:59.240 Just because they're more rounded.

00:16:00.500 Is that why?

00:16:01.820 Yes, they've seen things.

00:16:02.960 They've experienced. 0.96

00:16:04.000 If the crap hits the fan, I know they know what to do to protect the other operators, 0.95

00:16:07.140 to protect the kids if the kids are there. 0.98

00:16:09.140 So they're the guys I want there.

00:16:10.920 However, a lot of them, more than half of them actually don't make it through the undercover

00:16:15.000 vetting process.

00:16:15.640 They'll still be in the van giving us top cover, but we run everybody through a very

00:16:20.280 extensive training where we'll take them to a city and we'll tell them, look, go into

00:16:25.120 this bar.

00:16:26.080 There's a guy with a red hat on.

00:16:27.760 We have information that he sells kids.

00:16:29.460 That's all we know.

00:16:30.580 Go talk to him.

00:16:31.700 And we record the whole thing, right?

00:16:33.160 So we can critique it later.

00:16:34.260 It's very intense.

00:16:35.280 This is a plant, basically.

00:16:36.440 This is somebody on your team or?

00:16:38.260 Yeah, and he knows.

00:16:39.180 Okay.

00:16:39.420 He knows he's being vetted.

00:16:40.620 Okay.

00:16:41.180 It's a tryout, if you will.

00:16:42.540 Yeah, makes sense.

00:16:43.240 So they'll go sit down with this guy, and this guy is one of our trained operators who's

00:16:47.020 been there, done that, has a lot of acting experience, oftentimes, as an undercover operator

00:16:51.020 do.

00:16:51.880 I've seen guys walk out crying because he'll enforce a conversation where they're going

00:16:55.820 to have to talk about the five-year-old girl like it's a computer or a bike or a vehicle.

00:17:00.960 And if you can't do that, and when I went to undercover school, they told me, or schooled

00:17:04.860 this.

00:17:04.980 They said, look, we cannot make you an undercover operator.

00:17:07.760 No one can.

00:17:08.300 And we're just here to assess whether or not you can do this.

00:17:11.980 And if you can, then we can build on that.

00:17:14.640 And it's true. 0.56

00:17:15.620 That's what I found.

00:17:16.400 And I don't know why, but some people can sit in a room with someone selling a kid and

00:17:20.120 befriend the guy, and others just can't do it.

00:17:22.580 Our ultimate operator is the former special ops guy or the former CIA guy or the former

00:17:27.800 home and security agent who's done this.

00:17:30.000 When they pass that test, they are dynamite.

00:17:32.260 That's our A-team.

00:17:33.020 Are these guys volunteering, or are you going out and recruiting?

00:17:36.100 How does that work?

00:17:37.180 We'll send a general query out, and we'll get dozens and dozens of resumes.

00:17:41.620 And we have a team who goes through and vets out and picks the top 15 based on experience

00:17:46.700 and based on the resume.

00:17:48.260 Those 15 will come, and then we'll probably only end up using five of them in the end.

00:17:53.480 Okay.

00:17:54.200 When you go on these rescues, and I want to talk maybe a little bit about how these work,

00:17:57.740 and of course, the second part of this, which I think is huge, is the rehab and aftercare

00:18:02.360 that you talk about, have you had these missions go sideways, and how do you deal with that

00:18:08.560 when it happens?

00:18:10.500 Fortunately, we've never had it go sideways, and this is including in my career, to where

00:18:14.040 the bad guys knew who we were and pulled their guns out on us or something.

00:18:17.640 Yeah.

00:18:17.820 I've been very blessed that that's never happened.

00:18:20.540 We've always been able to.

00:18:22.240 If that happens, I mean, if we get to the point that we're in the deal, they're about

00:18:26.520 to sell us a kid, and we've done something to give up our cover, and then we've really

00:18:30.400 screwed up.

00:18:31.280 And I can't imagine these guys are trained operators. 1.00

00:18:33.980 They're scumbags just trying to make some money. 0.99

00:18:36.780 Or are they better than that? 1.00

00:18:38.140 They're businessmen.

00:18:38.800 I mean, we've had some deals where they're businessmen, but they'll bring their kind 0.91

00:18:41.480 of henchmen.

00:18:42.100 Oh, okay.

00:18:42.760 We were in one country where they actually were hiring off-duty police officers to kind

00:18:46.440 of be their henchmen.

00:18:48.540 So we have to be ready for that.

00:18:49.440 But mostly these guys, they're businessmen.

00:18:51.660 They're no different in terms of how they're appearing outward or how they're speaking.

00:18:56.280 They're no different than the guy who's selling you coconut water on the beach.

00:19:00.620 The difference is extreme. 0.99

00:19:02.120 These guys are dark, evil people.

00:19:03.900 But it's the weirdest thing how you look at them, and they're just functioning like, well, I'm

00:19:07.260 just selling kids, because that's what brings home the bacon, you know? 0.69

00:19:09.560 It's almost just like, based on what you're saying, it sounds like it's just a commodity

00:19:13.000 to them, and it's no big deal.

00:19:14.760 It's a commodity.

00:19:15.820 It's exactly right.

00:19:16.900 And how human beings can get themselves to that point is what I haven't figured out,

00:19:20.920 but I know that they are at that point.

00:19:22.960 There are times when something goes wrong in terms of, shoot, we didn't get the evidence

00:19:28.380 we needed, and how do we get this guy to say that without entrapping him?

00:19:32.160 That's when we have kind of things go sideways, where it's like, what do we do?

00:19:35.740 This guy's not saying enough for the legal system to take it to the next level, to get

00:19:40.020 the right warrant.

00:19:41.320 That's the part that can be very, very frustrating.

00:19:43.460 We're not a vigilante group.

00:19:44.440 We always work with the host country under their laws, and sometimes it's very difficult

00:19:49.480 to hit that threshold to where there's a prosecutable crime.

00:19:53.020 Even though we know that this guy's selling kids, he's smart enough not to talk.

00:19:57.800 And that's when you have to have the best undercover operators who know how to not violate the

00:20:01.880 laws of entrapment and say too much and still get the evidence you need.

00:20:05.700 It's heart-wrenching.

00:20:06.740 There's been times when we've had to walk away because we just couldn't get enough to

00:20:10.580 legally go to the next step, and it breaks your heart.

00:20:16.000 Guys, I'm sure you get sick of me telling you how great our exclusive brotherhood, the

00:20:19.940 Iron Council, is.

00:20:20.880 So rather than me tell you how great it is, I'm going to have one of our members tell you.

00:20:25.340 This man, he is number 16 in our membership.

00:20:27.680 So he's a longtime member, so I think you will agree with and like what he has to say

00:20:32.220 about the Iron Council.

00:20:33.980 When you can get your head around the fact that your calibration and your condition is

00:20:38.240 completely connected to your connection and contribution, what that means is that your

00:20:42.540 family life is completely connected to your business life and on and on.

00:20:48.000 When you can get your head around that and start executing small steps along with a brotherhood

00:20:53.880 of guys that are doing exactly the same thing, that's when your life is going to change.

00:20:57.680 And it's turn around.

00:20:58.600 You'll get your life back.

00:20:59.720 You'll get your wife back.

00:21:01.140 And that's what the Iron Council is all about.

00:21:03.240 If you are interested in learning more about the Iron Council and what we're all about,

00:21:07.480 head to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:21:09.880 Again, orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:21:13.180 Now let's get back to my conversation with Tim.

00:21:16.820 I've noticed there has been a couple of missions that I've seen just in the research that I did

00:21:20.700 where zero arrests, zero rescues.

00:21:23.080 And I can imagine based on the intimacy of the work that you're doing, that would be

00:21:26.940 a very difficult thing not to be able to complete something like that.

00:21:30.060 We had a case once where actually the kids were outside the house.

00:21:35.640 The traffickers were going to bring the kids into the house and we were going to do the

00:21:39.720 party.

00:21:40.240 It was a sting party. 0.52

00:21:41.580 They thought it was going to be a sex party with little girls, 12, 11, 13.

00:21:45.880 We got called by the prosecutor's office.

00:21:47.860 Stop.

00:21:48.440 Call off the operation.

00:21:49.320 There's a problem with one of the pieces of evidence or whatever it was.

00:21:52.960 And we had to make an excuse and watch that van turn around and drive back down the street.

00:21:57.820 And I wept all night.

00:22:00.060 I went home to my hotel and just wept.

00:22:02.280 I had seen the kids.

00:22:04.240 Fortunately, on that case I'm referring to, we actually came back several weeks later and

00:22:08.440 rescued all of them and more.

00:22:10.700 You're dealing with countries who have never done this before and they want to make sure

00:22:14.140 they do it right.

00:22:15.140 They want to make sure they don't set a bad legal precedent.

00:22:17.120 That's some of the more difficult maneuvering is getting them set up.

00:22:21.780 We just hired a former prosecutor who works in our office full time to be able to consult

00:22:27.620 our partners in our host countries to make sure that they can really figure this out,

00:22:32.240 set the right legal precedent to make sure that this is not just one hit, but this becomes

00:22:36.740 hundreds of hits and we're able to eradicate this.

00:22:40.080 Well, I know you're a man of faith.

00:22:41.540 I'm really interested in your perspective and how your faith plays into the mission that

00:22:45.980 you're doing.

00:22:46.420 I can only assume that this is well beyond money or a career for you.

00:22:51.480 This is a calling for lack of a better term.

00:22:53.580 I'm really interested in your perspective and faith on this.

00:22:56.860 I can say I wouldn't be brave enough at all to do this kind of work, especially as a private

00:23:02.160 organization, which there was a lot of reason to think this is not going to work.

00:23:05.740 But it truly, you know, for my wife and I, it felt like really we were supposed to do

00:23:10.700 this and we are a praying people in a family and we felt we have to do this.

00:23:15.220 You know, it's funny because in this area of criminal investigation, a lot of people

00:23:19.720 lose their faith and I get it. 0.97

00:23:21.640 They say, how could a God allow for the rape of these little children? 1.00

00:23:26.800 Sure. 0.99

00:23:26.980 How can this be?

00:23:28.840 And so I totally get it.

00:23:30.020 But my personal experience has been the opposite, where the closer we get on these cases, I

00:23:35.020 actually feel heaven's love for these kids.

00:23:38.080 And I feel it's very real.

00:23:39.720 I feel doors open that shouldn't open.

00:23:42.300 You know, miracles happen that shouldn't happen.

00:23:44.840 And so I feel God closer to us.

00:23:47.980 And as we go into these dark places, there's a sense of light in these dark places that really

00:23:53.420 keeps our team going and we are not a denominational kind of group.

00:23:57.720 In fact, we have everything from atheists to Jewish folks to Christians of all kinds.

00:24:03.560 But everybody knows that if you're going to come on the operation, there's going to be

00:24:06.400 a prayer, you know, there's going to be a prayer before, there's going to be a prayer

00:24:08.800 after, because we do rely on that light that we feel is guiding us and helping us to do

00:24:13.780 this work.

00:24:14.580 You know, outside of obviously what you're doing with the missions and being hyper involved

00:24:18.580 in the operations and things like that, what do you feel like is the most important

00:24:22.620 factor for you with regards to the general public being on podcasts like this?

00:24:28.300 I know you've got a podcast, for example.

00:24:30.100 Is it just bringing awareness to it?

00:24:31.560 What more do you feel like you can do to bring attention to this?

00:24:35.760 You know, it's funny.

00:24:36.400 I love history.

00:24:37.180 I do a lot of studying and it comforts me to learn that there's people in history who

00:24:41.360 are my heroes who did things way more difficult than we're doing.

00:24:44.920 And, you know, that's why we call ourselves Operation Underground Railroad.

00:24:47.020 We find so much inspiration in that movement of brave people who put away petty things

00:24:51.720 and of all colors and creeds and got together and helped to alleviate a wicked and evil element

00:24:56.820 in the nation.

00:24:58.100 And what's interesting is you study that movement.

00:25:00.360 It wasn't the government of the United States that one day raised their hand and said, you

00:25:04.540 know what, after 400 years, we're going to stop enslaving people.

00:25:08.060 You know, that's not what happened.

00:25:09.140 Right.

00:25:09.680 What happened was a grassroots movement.

00:25:12.000 People like Harry Beecher Stowe wrote books like Uncle Tom's Cabin.

00:25:16.560 Millions got involved and they got so loud.

00:25:19.300 And these are people of all kinds, business guys, traders, commercial folks, stay-at-home

00:25:23.860 moms who had seen enough and read enough and they started organizing.

00:25:27.800 That's what happened.

00:25:28.800 It got so loud and so powerful, this abolitionist movement, that the government finally said,

00:25:33.940 you know what, we've got to do something.

00:25:35.160 And that truly was the beginning of the end.

00:25:37.480 And so in the beginning of this podcast, I explained how this problem is every bit as

00:25:42.120 bad as slavery has ever been.

00:25:44.100 And the numbers are actually more.

00:25:45.860 And so I would expect the solution is going to be the same.

00:25:48.520 We need a grassroots movement.

00:25:50.680 We need people in every country to rise up and say, enough is enough.

00:25:54.520 I'm not going to live in a world that allows for this to happen to children or adults.

00:25:59.220 And we're going to rise up.

00:26:00.340 So this is one benefit we have that we didn't have in the government where we couldn't come

00:26:03.740 out and talk about it.

00:26:04.800 We can now talk about it, you know, with the permission of our host government partners,

00:26:08.620 of course.

00:26:09.280 But we talk about it.

00:26:10.140 We tell the stories.

00:26:11.120 We bring cameras into the dark places where kids are being sold.

00:26:14.320 We're trying to become the new Uncle Tom's cabin, you know, through our media.

00:26:18.540 And we encourage other groups and we applaud other groups who are doing the same thing.

00:26:22.320 Because once people see it and they start moving, now we can conquer it.

00:26:26.180 Now we can end it.

00:26:27.520 And so the awareness piece is absolutely paramount in our mission.

00:26:30.720 It's really interesting.

00:26:32.080 In 2005, 2006, I was in Iraq and the Iraqi people weren't bad people.

00:26:37.520 There was a few insurgents that had managed to penetrate areas that we were in.

00:26:41.640 And these people were so scared and they didn't like what was going on, yet they wouldn't tell

00:26:46.280 us where the insurgents were.

00:26:48.200 And I think based on what you're saying, it sounds like maybe we're getting to the point

00:26:51.760 where these people recognize there's injustice.

00:26:53.740 And hopefully they're getting to the point where they feel comfortable saying, this is what's

00:26:58.580 happening.

00:26:58.980 This is where it's happening.

00:26:59.940 This is how it's happening.

00:27:01.420 And I think you're leading that movement.

00:27:02.560 Am I understanding that correctly?

00:27:03.520 Getting the public involved with this stuff?

00:27:05.840 Absolutely right.

00:27:06.800 Everybody knows it's real and they know there's a team to join that will join with you and

00:27:11.160 hold your hand and tell you it's okay.

00:27:12.980 Let's talk about this and let's get these kids out. 0.94

00:27:15.220 That's exactly what we're talking about.

00:27:16.920 You've alluded to this a couple of times.

00:27:18.700 And I think if I understand correctly, you have a degree in political science.

00:27:21.900 Is that right?

00:27:22.880 Yes.

00:27:23.520 So you walk an interesting wire because you know a little bit about what's going on behind the

00:27:27.880 scenes and government red tape.

00:27:29.180 You were in government for a lot of years and now you're in the civilian sector.

00:27:32.720 Is it more advantageous to do this through civilians coordinating with governments or

00:27:37.300 vice versa?

00:27:37.860 How does this look like?

00:27:38.780 Where's the balance?

00:27:39.960 It's the partnership.

00:27:41.160 And that's one reason we left.

00:27:42.200 There were so many times when I was a government agent where I thought to myself, oh my gosh,

00:27:46.900 I could save 10 kids right now if I could pick up the phone and call somebody who had

00:27:51.980 the ability to get to this bar in Guatemala or get to this brothel down in Columbia.

00:27:58.140 Because oftentimes I'd be in a situation where I'd have a lead, but it was outside the jurisdiction

00:28:02.700 of the United States.

00:28:03.480 And so I couldn't.

00:28:05.060 I mean, if I was my own boss, I'd be telling myself, you can't fly down there, Tim.

00:28:09.240 That's outside of your jurisdiction.

00:28:10.420 We don't have a congressional mandate.

00:28:12.640 In fact, it will violate the constitution if you go out there.

00:28:15.020 And I thought, oh, but if I could just call someone who could and they could make the touches

00:28:18.900 on it that would then allow me to come in.

00:28:21.020 That's part of the reasoning for creating a private organization is I recognize, man,

00:28:24.600 if we could come together.

00:28:26.420 Let me give you an example.

00:28:27.040 The most kids I ever rescued as a government agent was seven in one op.

00:28:31.300 And that was huge.

00:28:32.000 I was like, oh my gosh, we can't believe we did that.

00:28:34.340 The most we rescued in OUR in one day on an operation was over 120.

00:28:39.700 Oh my gosh.

00:28:40.700 And I'm not taking the credit for it.

00:28:42.220 It was just as much the US government.

00:28:44.300 It was the host government, the foreign government we're working in.

00:28:46.760 It was the aftercare partners that we had.

00:28:49.000 There was an NGO and then us.

00:28:51.140 And all together, that's why it happened.

00:28:53.020 We have to try to recreate that powerhouse of a task force, for lack of a better term.

00:28:59.180 And in fact, we are making some great headway.

00:29:01.440 We've helped support a bill by Senator Orrin Hatch.

00:29:03.760 It just passed last week.

00:29:05.760 And basically, the whole idea is to formalize a relationship so that imagine if there's an

00:29:10.620 anti-trafficking center somewhere, whether it's in DC or wherever in the world, that has

00:29:15.700 elements from the private sector, the public sector, governments from around the world represented.

00:29:20.200 And you sit around and create these mega operations and the aftercare to go along with it.

00:29:25.840 That's what needs to happen.

00:29:27.460 Because right now, where we go from country to country, we have to reinvent the wheel.

00:29:31.020 Every time we go in, we have to start from scratch, convince them that this works.

00:29:34.760 We're actually working real aggressively with Senator Hatch's office and other great partners

00:29:38.780 on the Hill right now to actually create something that formalizes as much as we can,

00:29:43.980 that relationship between private and public sector, because that's the combination

00:29:48.060 that will make an enormous difference.

00:29:50.640 Yeah. I mean, I imagine there's pros and cons to both and you're highlighting that so I can

00:29:53.680 see the power of partnering and hitting both of those sides of things. Did you leave then

00:29:58.400 the Department of Homeland Security and start this movement or was there a gap between there?

00:30:02.880 How did that timeline work?

00:30:04.300 I started right away. I literally...

00:30:06.140 So you left for this cause.

00:30:07.700 I left for this. Yeah. So what had happened was enough cases. I had gained enough intel of

00:30:12.940 operation of potential rescues that simply fell out of the jurisdiction of the US. And I'm not

00:30:17.740 saying anything negative, by the way, about the US government. They can only go so far. There's

00:30:21.440 legal mandates and they just can't. As it is, they're going above and beyond. Every country I've

00:30:26.260 been in, the US government is going above and beyond even what they probably should do to help

00:30:31.120 the host countries to help these kids. But there comes a time where it just stops. You know,

00:30:35.100 they can do a thousand things we can't do and we can do a hundred things they can't

00:30:38.800 do. So together, it's just, it puts it all together. Yeah. I left one day and the next

00:30:43.600 day started Operation Underground Railroad. And from day one, my best partners were my former

00:30:48.560 colleagues. In fact, the boss that I had to say goodbye to and turned my badge and gun to

00:30:53.360 as I was crying on his desk and everyone else said, you're crazy. And this guy's name is John 0.92

00:30:58.000 Lyons. He said to me, Tim, I think you're crazy too, but I think you're crazy only if you 0.99

00:31:03.020 don't try this. Yeah. Because there are gaps that you can fill and together we can do things. 0.98

00:31:08.940 Two years later, John Lyons called me. He says, I've been watching you. I want to come work for

00:31:13.420 you. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. He now works for me. He runs all the operations. And this is the kind

00:31:18.200 of conversion we want everyone to get is look, let's join forces. We've got to come together.

00:31:22.540 One of the things you're alluding to, and I say this quite a bit is that leaders go first. So it's

00:31:25.740 really interesting to hear you where people say you're crazy and take that risk and go first and then see

00:31:30.920 a former boss recognize what you're doing and then decide to follow what you're doing. That's pretty

00:31:36.340 cool. It was an amazing day when I got to bring him over here and he's actually changed us for the

00:31:41.980 better in so many ways. It's amazing. But yeah, this is what we're trying to do is it's all about

00:31:45.980 forging these partnerships. Tim, we're winding down on time a little bit here. I want to stretch this

00:31:49.980 out just a little bit because I want to talk about the aftercare because I think that's really

00:31:54.040 important. I think it'd be really easy to see how traumatizing this can be for these children

00:31:58.360 in the moment and during the situation. And of course it is, I'm not downplaying that, but I

00:32:03.060 think there's probably a lot of ongoing issues as well. Can you talk to me about what that aftercare

00:32:08.640 looks like and what's included in that? The aftercare is absolutely the most important part

00:32:13.340 of our mission. Increasingly so is the more kids we rescue, we go back to these countries. We don't

00:32:19.060 leave and just think it's all going to be okay. We only do a rescue in a country if we know that

00:32:25.240 that aftercare piece is in place and we take an active role in that. We're not experts in

00:32:29.860 aftercare. In other words, we don't have a team of therapists that go in, but we have the best

00:32:34.320 vetting unit that I know of. They go into the country first. When we're called on to go into

00:32:38.960 a country, we send our aftercare team first. And their job is to find partners, NGOs, private

00:32:45.260 organizations that have therapists, that have the basic needs covered, that have opportunities to

00:32:50.740 offer these girls and these kids because we have to go into a rescue under the assumption

00:32:55.080 that every kid we rescue has nowhere to go. That's not the case. Usually there is a loving family

00:33:00.460 that can take these kids, but too often the family was part of it or they're non-existent.

00:33:05.920 So we have to really get that piece in place beforehand. And we'll spend months, even up to a

00:33:10.720 year or more, I think in one country we did, before we'll do a rescue because then those kids have to

00:33:15.660 come back to a place where they can be rehabilitated. And we continue to come back and

00:33:20.720 make sure they have what they need. And we'll write grants to our aftercare partners so they can

00:33:25.120 provide occupational training, for example, or provide anything that they need. It truly is the

00:33:30.880 most important part of our operation. There is no rescue if the kids can't be rehabilitated or if

00:33:35.660 there's any chance that they get thrown somehow back into the trafficking rings.

00:33:39.460 Right. I imagine if that's not set up, it just creates a void in a vacuum to be filled again.

00:33:43.600 Absolutely. Absolutely right.

00:33:44.960 So then it sounds like this aftercare is funded by your organization or is that in partnership

00:33:49.320 with some of these outside government agencies or how does that work?

00:33:53.340 Usually we'll find a group that we vet. And if we like that group, generally they're underfunded,

00:33:58.640 almost always they're underfunded. So we'll tell them, look, we love what you're doing. We want

00:34:03.300 to go do a rescue in this city and we think we're going to rescue potentially 20 kids. What do you need

00:34:09.040 so that you can offer what you're offering to these five to 20 more? They tell us what they need

00:34:13.920 and we make sure that part of our rescue budget goes to that. So we get it all set up. They're ready

00:34:20.200 to go. They literally have beds made before we start doing the operation so we know that there's

00:34:26.180 somewhere for them to go. And then after the rescue happens, we follow up. We have an aftercare team

00:34:31.300 that basically lives on an airplane and all they do is fly from one country to another country,

00:34:36.040 checking in on the kids that we've rescued, making sure they have what they need. And if they don't,

00:34:40.260 we make sure we get what they need to them until they eventually, you know, this is their home and

00:34:45.100 we're their family. And that's how we look at it. Very cool. Well, Tim, obviously we can talk a lot

00:34:49.840 more about this, but we're winding down on time and we're going to encourage everybody to check out

00:34:53.520 your organization and what you're doing. As we wind things down, I do want to ask you a couple of

00:34:57.480 questions. First question is what does it mean to be a man? It means that you are constantly looking

00:35:03.580 for the downtrodden, the captive. You're constantly looking for those people who are lost, who are

00:35:11.380 hurt, and that you act, that you go do something. You liberate the captive. You feed the hungry. You

00:35:17.860 heal the wounded. But to be a man, I think, requires that you're proactively looking for those

00:35:23.520 opportunities, not just waiting for something to fall in your lap, but you're looking for them and

00:35:28.040 you're willing to go into the dark place where they are to provide that ministry to them.

00:35:33.080 Powerful stuff. Well, let's be proactive here as the guys listening in, because I think there's

00:35:36.680 some opportunities here to get involved in different capacities. So I think we need to

00:35:40.320 know how to connect with you, how to learn more about your organization and how to get involved

00:35:44.560 to different degrees. We would encourage everyone to come check us out at OURrescue.org. We're very

00:35:50.980 transparent about what we do. We tell what we can about what we do and always with operational

00:35:55.360 security in mind. We have a lot of footage. We film what we can. We want people to know this is real

00:36:00.000 and convert them to our cause. So we'd encourage people to check that out. Also, you can check out

00:36:04.220 our podcast, Slave Stealer Podcast, where we go on and tell people about these stories

00:36:08.380 and reminding them again how they can get involved to help us fight the darkest thing to ever hit the

00:36:12.700 world. We'll make sure we link everything up so guys know exactly where to go. Tim, I appreciate

00:36:17.480 you more than anything. I just appreciate you being willing, as you said, to go in those dark places

00:36:22.200 and be proactive about stepping up and being a man. So I admire you. I respect you. And I'm excited to be

00:36:28.160 able to have the chance to talk with you and appreciate your work. Thank you so much. It's

00:36:31.700 been an absolute honor. I'm a fan of your show and it's an honor to be here. Thanks so much.

00:36:36.360 Gentlemen, there it is. My conversation with Tim Ballard. I think that you can agree that this is

00:36:40.760 an inspiring interview, not just because of the work Tim is doing, but because he's shown us the

00:36:45.740 path to doing something about the biggest problems that you and I see in the world. And at the end of

00:36:50.500 the day, men are problem solvers. And this is a guy who is solving some big, big problems in the

00:36:55.540 world. Again, if you would head over to Twitter or Instagram or Facebook, wherever you're doing the

00:37:01.120 social media thing and let me and Tim know what you thought about the conversation. And if you want

00:37:05.920 the links, if you need the links that we talked about today, head to order of man.com slash one

00:37:10.680 three seven. And as we wind things down today, guys, remember what our member of the iron council

00:37:16.500 Reese had to say about his experience inside of our brotherhood. If you are interested in learning

00:37:20.960 more head to order of man.com slash iron council, order of man.com slash iron council. I will look

00:37:27.520 forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then take action

00:37:31.740 and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

00:37:37.580 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:37:41.360 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - October 31, 2017

137： The Fight Against Child Sex Trafficking ｜ Tim Ballard

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