Order of Man - 139： Wild at Heart

00:00:00.000 Deep in his heart, every man longs for a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to

00:00:05.140 rescue. This is one of my favorite quotes about masculinity, and if you've been following us for

00:00:10.240 very long, you've heard it from me a thousand times. Today, I'm honored and have the privilege

00:00:14.540 of talking with the author of that quote and one of my top five recommended books on masculinity,

00:00:19.780 Wild at Heart. His name is John Eldridge. We talk about the secret to a man's soul,

00:00:24.460 the single greatest question every man needs to have answered, society's attack on gender,

00:00:28.760 how to embrace authentic masculinity and why every man is wild at heart.

00:00:34.300 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:39.160 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily

00:00:45.140 deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you

00:00:52.680 will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:59.220 Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host of this podcast,

00:01:03.700 The Order of Men. I am stoked to be joining with you today, as I always am, but particularly today,

00:01:09.420 since I have one of my favorite authors on the show and a man who has an incredible,

00:01:13.840 an incredible handle on what we as men are experiencing in life. If you are new to the show

00:01:19.380 today, you picked a great one to join us on. We are interviewing the world's most successful men.

00:01:25.020 We're extracting their lessons, their insights, their ideas. We're delivering them straight to

00:01:29.780 you. We've had some incredible guests. I think most of you can agree on the show. If you haven't

00:01:34.460 gone back and listened to shows like Jocko Willink, Tim Kennedy, Andy Frisilla, Brett McKay,

00:01:40.420 so many more, I'd encourage you to go back and tune into those shows. And if you would,

00:01:44.400 please also make sure to leave us a rating and review as I read every single one of those. And of

00:01:49.580 course, appreciate it when you do. Now I'm not going to bombard you with announcements today.

00:01:54.540 We always have a lot going on. Sometimes it seems like too much, but right now I've got my head down

00:01:59.180 on a couple of different things. Number one is our live meetup in Nashville, January 26th and 27th.

00:02:06.380 And it's also going to be a book launch party for the book that comes out in February. So make sure if

00:02:11.140 you would go check that out and join us register at order of man.com slash Nashville. That's order of

00:02:17.020 man.com slash Nashville. Now I want to introduce you to my guest again. I'm honored to have him on

00:02:21.960 the show. His name is John Eldridge. When I set out on this journey to become a better man, his book

00:02:27.700 wild at heart was one of my go-to resources for understanding of who I am as a man and how men

00:02:34.420 show up in this world. Now at the time, I never thought that I'd actually have the chance to have

00:02:39.100 a conversation with him, but after some back and forth and getting our schedules pinned down, we were

00:02:43.300 finally able to lock something in. John is an author, a counselor, a teacher. He's been working

00:02:48.840 with men and teaching them how to transform their lives for more than two decades. It's really

00:02:53.580 interesting to see that the book wild at heart still strikes a nerve with me and thousands and

00:02:58.660 thousands of men across the world, more than 15 years after he wrote it. This is a testament to

00:03:04.060 John's understanding of what we as men are really after in our lives and how to become the men that we

00:03:09.480 are meant to be. John, welcome to the show. So glad to have you on today. Yeah. Thanks, Ryan.

00:03:15.520 Really glad to be with you. Wild at heart, which is the discussion that we're going to have today

00:03:20.020 is one of my favorite books on the topic of masculinity and one that I recommend to all the

00:03:25.480 guys that I talk with. I'm thinking about this. It's actually been over 15 years since you wrote this

00:03:30.500 book, but I think it continues to be something that is very impactful in men's lives. What do you

00:03:35.920 attribute the duration of popularity of this book to? Well, I think because it hit on some really

00:03:43.060 universal themes. One of the cool stories of wild at heart is not just that it's kind of carried on

00:03:50.300 over the years, but it's in a bunch of foreign languages in countries that you'd think, oh, that's

00:03:57.400 not going to work. You know, culturally, like it's in Slovakia. It's the bestselling book for men in

00:04:03.040 Slovakia. Interesting. It's in Colombia. It's being used down in the Amazon. I mean, just places that you

00:04:10.220 just go, okay, hang on a second. Something, something in wild at heart touched a chord that

00:04:16.760 seems pretty universal to guys. And what do you think that is? I think first off giving guys

00:04:23.100 permission to be men, I think there's a lot of books out there that have advice and there's a lot

00:04:30.360 of books out there with here's what you ought to be, but pressure doesn't exactly inspire.

00:04:37.700 There's something in the realm of permission to get in touch with your own passions, get in touch with

00:04:45.100 your core, you know, being as a man and feel free to live from that. I think that's one of the deep

00:04:54.460 things guys are really connecting with. Why do you think it's been so difficult? Because I hear some

00:04:59.360 people will say things like there's an attack on masculinity and others will say, well, it's just

00:05:04.100 the nature of modern times. What do you think that is attributed to? Oh, no, no. We are in a time of

00:05:10.680 massive gender collapse. It's not just an attack on masculinity, because it's also attack on

00:05:17.020 femininity. I mean, I was looking at a cover story of a magazine earlier this year on gender. And that

00:05:25.460 picture was about eight young people, young millennials in their 20s. And the spectrum was,

00:05:34.600 you might be male, you might be female, you might be transgendered, you might be lesbian,

00:05:40.480 you might be gay, you might be queer. And that message that the world has embraced right now

00:05:47.240 is that gender is a spectrum. It's not a fixed thing. It's fluid, it's movable. And you can kind

00:05:54.360 of choose what you want your gender expression to be. So even the idea of masculinity now is something

00:06:04.100 that it's not so much attack as it's, it's just completely dismissed.

00:06:08.620 Hmm. Why do you think that's the way that it is? I mean, we can talk a lot about whether it's

00:06:13.940 governments or the media or big business. I mean, there's a lot of things that are play here. But

00:06:19.020 why do you think in general, there is this notion and gravitation towards gender fluidity?

00:06:25.440 Well, these are really good questions, by the way, because we're diving straight into some of the

00:06:30.240 deepest things in life.

00:06:31.920 We don't mess around here. We get right into it.

00:06:33.800 No, you don't. Okay, so you have to understand that on two levels. First off,

00:06:39.060 human brokenness is more profound right now than it may have ever been on the earth. You just,

00:06:46.540 you just take incidences, for example, of sexual abuse, sexual trauma, early in life,

00:06:53.380 has increased over the past century. And that does serious damage to your view of your gender,

00:07:03.100 who you are, either as a man or as a woman. So you have to understand the effect of trauma

00:07:08.420 on a widespread cultural basis, both for men and women, particularly sexual trauma. But you also have

00:07:16.080 to understand, if you believe in any kind of battle, there is a massive war against humanity. I mean,

00:07:25.340 there is there is real evil, and evil hates humanity. And it is attacking us in the core of

00:07:32.920 our being, which I think gender is is absolutely core to the human race, like everything you do,

00:07:39.140 you do as a man, or you do as a woman, like masculinity is so core to how men are created,

00:07:46.440 that when evil attacks us there, it brings in a level of confusion and doubt. And then you just add

00:07:53.680 the sociological layer, you just add the crisis of fatherlessness, gender identity is bestowed by the

00:07:59.940 father, boys look to their dad, or to the key man in their life, to learn who they are as men,

00:08:08.440 they can't get it from their moms, they can't get it from other boys, they sure can't get it from

00:08:13.320 girls, although they try. And so you also just have that sociological layer of the crisis of

00:08:18.820 fatherhood, so many men growing up without a real dad in their life. You put those things together,

00:08:27.300 and it's a train wreck. Yeah, it's really interesting. One of the chapters in the book,

00:08:31.360 you actually talk about this with the rise of boys being raised without fathers. And that was me,

00:08:36.740 I was raised primarily by my mother, and my sister was in the picture. And it was really

00:08:42.420 fascinating to go through this chapter in the book and, and realize in a way that I wanted to be

00:08:47.660 free from her little boy, if you will. And that chapter resonated with me so much, so much so that

00:08:55.300 I remember getting on the phone with my mom, not long after I originally read the book, and I've read

00:08:59.660 it multiple times now. And she would call me honey, and sweetie and sweetheart. And for the first time,

00:09:05.840 I realized, like, that's not who I want to be. That's not who I identify as a man. And so I

00:09:12.260 remember having the conversation of please don't use those words anymore, because I do want to be

00:09:17.520 free. I do want to be masculine. And you're keeping me here as a little boy, it seemed like.

00:09:21.920 Wow, that's huge. That's just huge.

00:09:24.880 Yeah, really interesting perspective. You know, you also talk about with this attack, you know,

00:09:29.800 I look at pornography, for example, and then also just the breakdown of the family unit and

00:09:34.780 society's attack on the family. Do you see those as being key perpetrators, I guess, on this attack

00:09:40.080 as well? Well, okay, so here, this is going to help guys understand the pornography thing, because

00:09:45.140 the core issues of pornography have nothing to do with sex. The experience of coming alive

00:09:53.480 as a man is so rare in our culture right now, that when a guy experiences pornography, I mean,

00:10:03.220 it fires things inside of us. Yeah, sure. Right? And there's a sense of aliveness that he does not

00:10:10.740 experience anywhere else in his life, not at his work, not in his friendships, not maybe at church,

00:10:16.860 if he's into that, not at home. And so the core issue is the more that a man is wholehearted as a

00:10:25.880 man, the more that he knows who he is, and he has a deep, settled experience of being alive as a man,

00:10:33.200 pornography begins to look like cotton candy. Like it's just, it doesn't work. It's not what I'm

00:10:39.200 looking for. It's, it's a false high. It's like meth.

00:10:43.320 Yeah. How does a man then begin to know who he is?

00:10:48.280 Well, you got to start in a couple of places. And actually, like you asked, why did you think

00:10:52.660 Wild at Hearts continue to do so well as a book? I think because the very first, the very first thing

00:10:58.140 it does for guys, the subtitle is discovering the secret of a man's soul. That the first thing to say

00:11:03.980 to guys is you have an interior world. And your inner world is more important than your external world.

00:11:12.400 And most of the stuff online, if you look up, you know, how to be a real man or, you know,

00:11:18.060 seven tips for growing as a man, most of it's external stuff. You know, it's learn to work on

00:11:23.360 your car or learn to handle money, that kind of thing. Good things, by the way. But Wild at Heart

00:11:29.660 and books like it that are popular, that do well, help men with their inner world. So when you ask,

00:11:36.540 what does it mean to find out who you really are as a man? We got to start with the interior life.

00:11:41.420 And we got to back up to little boys. And you got to say every little boy

00:11:45.080 is basically asking one question. He's asking, do I have what it takes? The search for validation

00:11:53.080 fuels a man's behavior, just about every day of his life. Like right now in this podcast,

00:11:59.780 I'm very aware of as a man, I want to do very well. The search for validation is huge. Now as a

00:12:06.260 little boy, do I have what it takes? And whether he gets a good answer to that question is just huge.

00:12:13.300 So how do I kind of know who I am as a man come alive as a man? Who answered your question? Now for

00:12:20.340 you, it was your mom. And it was sweetie and sweetheart and honey. And while those are very

00:12:26.320 endearing, by the way, that that's precious stuff. It doesn't answer the question. It tells the boy he's

00:12:32.680 sweet. It tells the boy he's tender, but it does not tell the boy that he has what it takes.

00:12:40.120 Right?

00:12:40.960 Sure.

00:12:41.620 Okay. So for guys listening to this and they're going, oh man, how did you get your question

00:12:46.940 answered? Did your dad answer it? And a lot of guys didn't have a dad there to answer it. Or if

00:12:52.020 their dad was there, they got a horrible answer. They got, my dad, my dad used to call me worthless.

00:12:57.260 Hmm. Now it was partly playful. He was also kind of a dick sometimes, but, but the thing is you tell

00:13:04.300 a boy that enough over the course of his life, Hey, worthless is what he would say to me when I'd

00:13:08.480 walk in the room that begins to answer the question. Do I have what it takes? No, you don't

00:13:14.120 have what it takes. And so this core question, am I a man? You got to start with who has named you,

00:13:21.960 who got to answer that question so that they can do like you did with your mom. You got to say,

00:13:27.000 you know what? I actually reject that answer. I'm not just sweet. I'm not just a good boy.

00:13:33.400 I'm not soft. You can begin to reject that answer and you begin to search for a real one.

00:13:39.340 It's really fascinating that you talk about this because I have made a commitment to coach my

00:13:44.000 boys, baseball, football, and basketball teams. And we just got into basketball.

00:13:48.120 And it's really interesting to watch my two oldest boys who my six-year-old, they don't keep score

00:13:52.820 at this age at nine. They do at six. They don't. And it was really funny. We just had our last

00:13:56.980 basketball game. After the game was over, the six-year-old boys immediately, first question

00:14:02.200 after the game was over, coach, who won? Which I think to your point is a version of asking,

00:14:07.940 do I have what it takes? Did I beat the other team? Did I do what I needed to do?

00:14:12.320 Totally. Exactly. Right. And so in a culture where everybody gets a trophy, not helpful.

00:14:18.700 Not helpful because it doesn't bring the affirmation he's looking for. Who won? Did we kill

00:14:23.560 him? Did we do it? Like, am I powerful is another way of saying the same question. Am I powerful? A man

00:14:30.160 wants his words to be powerful. He wants his actions to be powerful. He wants his decisions

00:14:36.120 to matter. You know, and you get into it like a corporate job, man, and you don't get to make

00:14:41.540 decisions. And your words, you got to be really careful with your words. The world emasculates men.

00:14:48.220 And so like in a ball game like that, you're looking for some place to know, did we do it?

00:14:52.880 Did we kill him? Am I powerful? Did we win? Right? Let's look at the other side of this because

00:14:58.500 I know that there's going to be people saying this and I can even hear this is that looking to some

00:15:04.160 sort of external metric or validation of a man's worthiness is an unhealthy practice. What are your

00:15:09.820 thoughts there? Yes and no. Okay. So yeah. How much money you make doesn't matter. Right. Right.

00:15:16.180 How beautiful your date is doesn't matter. Some of those things are false and the world is full of

00:15:22.180 it. I was just watching, uh, uh, watching the world series and, and some of the commercials on

00:15:26.900 there. I mean, they know who's watching, right? So most of the commercials are just designed for men,

00:15:31.060 you know, Matthew McConaughey's driving this new, I think it's a Lincoln and you know,

00:15:36.400 he's dressed to the T and he's got the ladies and everything else. Exactly. Exactly. And the

00:15:41.740 message is if you get that, you're a man. So that stuff's not helpful. That is the world's version

00:15:48.040 of it. But yes, of course there are external metrics in the sense of does your life matter?

00:15:54.960 Are you making a difference? What is your impact on the world? You know, again, world series commercials,

00:16:00.840 the new call of duty video game commercial, it is brilliant. It is so brilliant. Cause it just

00:16:07.760 appeals to the core of men. And it's, you know, it's a, it's a world war two type battle video game.

00:16:13.100 And, and the idea being, you know, it's talking about brotherhood and courage and valor, right?

00:16:20.680 Okay. That stuff is huge. They are tapping into the spine of men. Like, yeah, you want your life

00:16:28.760 to matter? Do I live with courage? Do I live with valor? Do I have brotherhood in my life? Some of

00:16:35.100 those external things are, are important to ask. Yeah, this makes total sense. And I think part of

00:16:40.260 the reason why this book has done so well, and of course, even your continued work and my work as

00:16:45.840 well, because I think to some degree we recognize this. I want to go back because you talked about

00:16:50.380 going to the internal versus external. I think most men probably look to external sources,

00:16:56.920 external validation, get the car, get the money, get the girl, get the vacations, get the house,

00:17:00.960 get the thing, right? Is it that it's just more time consuming or harder, or they don't know how

00:17:07.000 to turn inside versus outside? Why is it such a challenge for men to turn inwards?

00:17:12.120 Well, there's a couple of things. One is fear. Fear is big. And the other is he probably doesn't

00:17:18.080 have a guide. Men were meant to be fathered. We were meant to be initiated, you know, the ideal

00:17:25.300 experience. And you look back through, this is just so true over culture and over history. You

00:17:30.680 know, whether you look at the Vikings or the Irian Jaya in New Guinea, or you just take any,

00:17:36.840 any people group, they had a means of initiating boys. And it was older men showing the younger men

00:17:45.200 and the boys how to do it. And so, especially when you're talking about your inner world. Okay,

00:17:50.760 so fear and the lack of a guide. Because the core issue is this, every man has a wounded heart.

00:17:59.260 And the wounds that he's taken are primarily in the place of validation. No, you don't have what

00:18:05.460 it takes, you know, and I could, you know, the stories that I have from counseling guys are pretty

00:18:10.780 horrific. But the violence, the sexual assault, the abandonment, the heinous things done and said to

00:18:17.900 boys in their journey to become men, every man has got a wound in his soul. Every man does, you don't

00:18:24.080 get through this war without it. And to go back into that wound and say, and it's almost always a

00:18:31.180 father wound, by the way, because again, the father was meant to bestow the masculine identity. To go back

00:18:37.260 into that wound feels like a scary thing. It feels like, man, I just feel weak when I'm there. I don't

00:18:43.760 know what to do with it. It's a risk, right? It's a big risk. And that's why I write. That's

00:18:50.140 why you do your podcast. Like we're trying to offer a guide. We're trying to help guys say,

00:18:55.620 no, no, no, you can do this. You can do this. The fight for your heart is your biggest fight.

00:19:00.900 And as you begin to get more and more of your heart back, you are going to be an unstoppable force.

00:19:07.520 So it is totally worth the risk. If you've never had any sort of rite of passage, and I'll just go

00:19:14.040 back to my childhood. I didn't have this. My dad wasn't around to tell me you're a man now.

00:19:18.480 But I got a lot of that through my time playing sports in high school. My mom was fortunately had

00:19:24.580 enough insight and knowledge and ideas to put me in sports with other men and boys. I joined the

00:19:29.560 military when I was 18 years old and got a lot of it there. But how does a man who never received

00:19:33.900 some sort of passage receive this or create this for himself?

00:19:39.160 Yeah, I think you just gave a couple big examples. It's available. It's available, guys. It's

00:19:45.120 available. But you do have to be intentional. And some of it comes through the company of other men.

00:19:52.620 And so get yourself in the company of good men. You know, if it's guys going out bird hunting,

00:19:59.260 or if it's guys who are fixing cars in a shop, or if it's guys who love to do a, you know, a hike

00:20:05.960 every weekend, and they love to just go into the mountains or whatever, you know, it could be it could

00:20:10.400 be down at the Y shooting hoops, like, get yourself in the context where that can take place. But the

00:20:18.140 issue we're kind of skirting around here a little bit is, and I thought Dennis Prager was fascinating on

00:20:23.720 this. He's a Jewish scholar, really brilliant guy. And, and he was trying to explain the Old Testament.

00:20:29.580 And he said, the reason that God is presented as Father, has almost entirely to do with the fact that

00:20:38.020 young men need initiation. And so he was really dialed into the sociological realities of the need for

00:20:46.440 initiation, the failure of modern era to offer it. And his whole point, I think is very, very true, is that

00:20:53.340 there is a father, there is a father, who can speak into your life, and who can provide initiation

00:21:01.540 experiences, if you will let him. And so, you know, you got, we're obviously into faith questions and

00:21:08.600 issues like that. But that's a big, big offer, frankly, of the gospel is you can still be fathered.

00:21:15.700 Yeah, makes sense. Makes total sense. And if I can add one more suggestion and thought in here,

00:21:20.720 one of the things that I've been really involved with lately is teaching young men in our church

00:21:26.240 and in our neighborhood. And there's also some sort of joy and satisfaction of helping a lot of

00:21:32.180 these boys who frankly won't get it outside of their opportunity to engage with me. There is an

00:21:37.180 opportunity for me to participate in that to a degree as well. And I would just tell every man who's

00:21:43.300 listening, like get involved in the community because there are other young boys and young men

00:21:47.280 who need what you may not have had growing up. Yeah. And that's so good. That's so good. Because

00:21:52.600 the initiation will take place as you're offering it. And also just ask yourself, like, where would

00:21:58.180 you love to grow? Where would you love to be strengthened? You know, if you're the kind of guy

00:22:03.200 that wasn't raised around sports, maybe you'd like to go take a class and learn how to, you know,

00:22:09.220 I don't know, shoot a ball, throw a curveball, like, go deliberately into those places that you want to get

00:22:16.220 stronger. You know, if you never had woodshop in school as a kid, you know, there's a lot of

00:22:21.040 classes on that offered in city college now in the evening. So you can put yourself into those

00:22:26.340 training experiences that will strengthen your inner life. And this is so valuable. I've got my

00:22:33.600 first hunt. I've never hunted in my life. I've got my first hunt coming up next week. Later in the

00:22:38.780 year, I'm going to Tim Kennedy's sheepdog response training where I get to shoot guns and roll around

00:22:45.400 on the mat with him and other guys. Like I'm, I'm really excited about this kind of stuff because

00:22:49.380 yes, it pushes me outside of my comfort zone, but it's exactly what I think is needed to develop more

00:22:54.120 masculinity in my life. Yeah. I love that. I love that intentionality. Chase it, go find it.

00:23:03.260 Gentlemen, just a quick timeout. The battle that John has referenced in this podcast is one that I

00:23:08.780 set out on for myself years ago. What I found was there was no battle plan, no guidance,

00:23:14.560 no direction, and no one to take this journey of becoming a better man with me. So I actually just

00:23:20.020 set out to create it. And that's exactly what I did when I created the iron council. This is our

00:23:24.800 exclusive brotherhood dedicated to giving you the tools and the resources and the battle plan required

00:23:29.660 to thrive in your life. And when you join us, you'll be banding together with brothers in arms who are in

00:23:35.580 the same battle as you, the battle for your career, the battle for your marriage and family and the

00:23:41.320 battle for your life. So if you're ready to join us, gain the knowledge and the skills and the tools

00:23:46.340 to arm yourself with the resources that you're going to need to engage in this fight, you can join us

00:23:51.000 inside of the iron council at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com

00:23:56.360 slash iron council. Now let's get back to the conversation with John. One of the other things that

00:24:02.700 you had mentioned in the book, and I can't remember exactly where it is in the book, but you talk about

00:24:06.740 essentially doing the opposite. And that's probably not the right word, but doing the opposite of what

00:24:11.160 you're accustomed to. So if you're accustomed to being the guy that sits in the corner and doesn't

00:24:16.300 really share any of his insights or wording, then be the guy who actually now goes out and shares and

00:24:21.580 is more vocal about his ideas. I think sometimes just doing something different than you've ever

00:24:25.680 done or have done. Yeah, no, this is huge because of the lack of validation and because of the wounding,

00:24:31.520 because of the scripts that we were handed, you know, in school, in sports, whatever. Most men are

00:24:37.820 now faking it. Most of what you meet when you meet a man is a brilliant disguise. In the book,

00:24:44.880 I call it the poser. Every guy has perfected the poser. And so for one guy, it's he's really smart.

00:24:52.740 And for another guy, he's really funny. And for another guy, he's just always silent. You know,

00:24:58.000 another guy, he's he's awesome at sports. And that's what he leads with. But the point is, you're

00:25:03.300 hiding behind the poser. And when I talk about do the opposite, you have these inclinations, like

00:25:10.440 you've always got to be in control. You got to let that go. If you want to find a genuine strength, like

00:25:16.320 if you want to grow in genuine courage and strength, you've got to stop doing the things you do

00:25:24.320 to hide. So stop stop cracking jokes all the time. You know, you don't have to be the funny guy all

00:25:30.120 the time. Yeah. Or for another guy, like you were saying, if you're just silent, and you never speak

00:25:35.400 up, it's time to speak up. You're hiding behind that. And so the idea of doing the opposite of

00:25:40.940 what you normally do is the idea of coming out of hiding. One of the quotes that you had mentioned

00:25:45.580 in the book, I actually wrote this down in my notes. As I was preparing for our conversation,

00:25:48.920 it says the world of posers is shaken by a real man, and they'll do whatever they can to get you

00:25:53.480 back in line. Now, I think this is kind of talking about the inverse relationship, right? Somebody

00:25:57.740 else being a poser and our tendency to fall in line with what somebody else believes about us or the

00:26:04.440 way that we should act. Oh, totally. I had lunch with a guy last week who's a really good guy.

00:26:10.960 And we were chatting about hunting because he happens to be like really into hunting. But after lunch,

00:26:16.060 I found myself totally exhausted. Like I was just fried. And I had to ask myself, why? Why? And the

00:26:23.280 reason is this is because I had to hide most of who I am to hang out with this guy. Like in other

00:26:30.120 words, he's got a way of doing life. He's got a chit chat. He's got a banter. He's got and the

00:26:34.940 message is you stay within this boundary. Don't talk about heavy stuff. Definitely don't start talking

00:26:42.600 about God. And don't go outside this boundary. And I was so exhausted afterwards of trying to live

00:26:49.640 within his little circle. And guys, like the world is full of this stuff. You work with posers. You go

00:26:57.380 to church with posers. Your family reunions are full of posers. And the pull to be a poser yourself

00:27:04.800 is pretty strong and something you have to intentionally resist.

00:27:10.280 And you talk about also, and I'm just paraphrasing here, but stepping into your strength and knowing that

00:27:17.020 people are going to be intimidated by you being fully who you are.

00:27:21.500 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what? One of the most disruptive things one of my mentors said to me

00:27:28.720 years and years ago, because I was hiding, I was posing, I was, oh man, just doing all that stuff.

00:27:35.040 Every guy does. And here's what he said to me. He says, let people feel the weight of who you are

00:27:41.720 and let them deal with it. And to this day, like that reverberates in my soul. Like just,

00:27:50.440 you have a strength to offer the world. You are a man. Offer it. And don't be so worried about

00:27:59.280 how they handle it. They may not be able to handle it. That's okay. Be who you are.

00:28:05.520 I like that. Cause I've always thought, you know, people are going to respond,

00:28:08.840 but the way that they respond to what you're doing is just a representation of the way they

00:28:14.300 feel and who they are. It doesn't really say anything about who you are.

00:28:18.420 Totally. Totally. And the world is threatened by a real man. I mean, let's just be honest. You know,

00:28:22.740 you, you're in a, you know, staff meeting at work and everybody's just, you know, kissing up to the

00:28:27.940 boss and, and you raise your hand and say, you know, I don't think that's a good idea.

00:28:32.600 I don't think this company ought to go in that direction. People are going to be threatened by

00:28:37.680 that. People are threatened by a genuine strength. But the thing is, is that the world needs a genuine

00:28:43.540 strength. There is a quality to masculinity that I think is powerfully pictured in the firemen and

00:28:51.320 the pararescue, the guys who went up the stairs of the World Trade Center when everybody else was

00:28:57.360 running down on nine 11, like everybody's piling down those stairwells, obviously try and get out

00:29:03.440 of there. But there was a group of guys who went up and that choice, that choice of courage and self

00:29:11.040 sacrifice is the essence of masculinity. It's such a good point. You know,

00:29:16.680 what's really funny is it seems to me that society and media and the government and everybody else will

00:29:22.500 ridicule and mock masculinity until something goes wrong. And you look around and you see when

00:29:28.280 things go wrong. I think of pictures and stories that I heard about these, these hurricanes in Texas

00:29:33.400 and Florida and Puerto Rico. And you see these authentic men doing what it is men do. And nobody

00:29:40.840 complains when things are going wrong. It's only when things are perfect. It's kind of interesting.

00:29:44.780 I love that. There was a fabulous story on the, they called it the Cajun Navy. And during the flooding

00:29:52.880 down in Texas, dudes, regular dudes showed up with their boats and they were guys that knew how to handle

00:30:01.320 the water. They knew how to tie a knot. They knew how to pull somebody out. They knew how to navigate

00:30:06.940 through because they've been doing it all their life, right? These are fishermen. These are guys who are

00:30:12.060 familiar with boats and it was thousands of just guys in their small personal craft that performed

00:30:21.640 most of the rescues. And that's what you're saying. It's like the world doesn't, the world doesn't want

00:30:26.760 masculinity until it needs it. And then it's like, please show up, please rescue us.

00:30:32.040 Yeah. Is this now, is this the notion of authentic masculinity or is it deeper than this or something

00:30:36.900 else? Help me understand that. Yeah, it is because having a genuine strength to offer the world is

00:30:45.160 what it means to be a man. And for those guys, it was expressing it in courage and the handling of a

00:30:51.660 boat, but it can be expressed in so many different ways. What we're talking about is we're talking about

00:30:57.520 the masculine journey and we're talking about coming out from the false self, putting down the poser,

00:31:03.680 seeking the initiation that you need as a man to grow as a man and offering what you have to the

00:31:11.920 world. So one of my favorite quotes, I quote this all the time. The guys are going to hear this and

00:31:16.540 they're going to roll their eyes because I say it all the time. And that's your quote. And it's deep

00:31:20.060 in his heart. Every man longs for a battle to fight, an adventure to live and a beauty to rescue.

00:31:24.180 I'd like to break down each one of these. When you're talking about a battle to fight,

00:31:28.060 what types of battles are we talking about here that men can engage in?

00:31:30.860 Oh my gosh, they're coming at you every day. They are coming at you every day. Every guy wakes up

00:31:38.320 to this. You've got battles in your home, battles for relationship. If you want friendship, you have

00:31:45.200 to fight for it. If you want a marriage, you have to fight for it. If you have kids, Ryan, you know,

00:31:50.700 you have to fight for their hearts and fight for it is the only best description because

00:31:56.380 there's the busyness. There's the self-absorption. There's the, oh man, I don't want to have this

00:32:03.080 conversation tonight. I just want to watch the game. There's the doubt. Do I have what it takes

00:32:09.840 to be a good father? Do I have what it takes to handle my wife's emotions? Do I have what it takes

00:32:17.600 to talk to my 16 year old daughter about her boyfriend? The reason we avoid these places is

00:32:22.820 usually fear, fear and self-preservation. And so they are battles because you have to,

00:32:29.440 you have to operate in courage to move into those places. There's battles at work. There's battles in

00:32:36.980 your community. If your kids are in school, I guarantee you there's a fight for their education.

00:32:42.300 And then how about your dreams? How about your own dreams of what, what you want your life to be like?

00:32:48.980 How about some of those things you've wanted to chase or to see happen? You're going to have to

00:32:53.740 fight for your dreams. And every one of these is a place to develop the warrior in you.

00:33:00.780 I really like that you'd use that term battle because I think it's very easy for us to get

00:33:05.360 into the monotonous grind of life. And we've got this task and this chore and we've got to take the

00:33:10.640 trash out and we've got to do X and Y and Z. And I know for me personally, when I framed it as a

00:33:15.860 battle, for example, I wake up in the morning and don't want to roll out of bed. And I look at my

00:33:20.080 mission as being a protector, a provider and a presider to my family and those that, that I have

00:33:23.900 an obligation for. I think I'm more equipped mentally to go into the battle of just waking

00:33:29.600 up and going into the gym because I look at it as something engaging versus something I'm not even

00:33:34.860 remotely interested in participating in. Yeah. Yeah. See, you just got to reframe it. Most guys are

00:33:40.300 looking at that stuff right now and they're calling it hassles or chores, right? Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:46.520 I just got so much to do. There's just so much hassle to my life. You go, wait, wait, wait. Those

00:33:51.540 aren't hassles. Those are battles and you are being trained as a warrior. And the only way, the only

00:33:58.520 way you can really train warriors is to put them in a real fight. Makes sense. Total sense. How about

00:34:04.580 the second component of that, which is an adventure to live? I mean, you look around and guys aren't

00:34:09.160 living adventures, right? They're stuck in cubicles and they're, they're just beat up to death,

00:34:13.460 literally. And they're just not experiencing anything exciting in life. Totally. You know,

00:34:19.140 who's nailed this? Yeti coolers. If you get online and you Google, you watch any of the Yeti cooler films,

00:34:27.340 that, that company is putting out these phenomenal short films, guys being guys out on adventures.

00:34:35.240 And it may be a three minute film, but it grabs your soul. They understand adventure is a spiritual

00:34:43.640 longing in the soul of every man. And the smaller adventures are stuff you just go do. You know,

00:34:52.180 we're going to, we're going to go take a backpacking trip. We're, we're going to, you know, go sailing

00:34:56.460 this weekend. We're going to go out and go spear fishing. We're going to go bird hunting. And that

00:35:01.020 stuff's great. And that stuff feeds your soul. But if you'll notice your life begins to face bigger

00:35:06.980 and bigger adventures, will you take these risks? Adventures are always about risk taking. Are you

00:35:12.980 going to start that company that you've been talking about? You're going to start that church

00:35:17.400 that you've been dreaming of? You're going to, you're going to start that afterschool education

00:35:21.640 program that you were talking about, Ryan, like entering into the larger scale adventures.

00:35:27.440 It doesn't just nourish you. It calls you out. It calls you out. My son and I were just on a

00:35:35.240 caribou hunt in the Northwest territories. The best part was when everything went south.

00:35:42.740 We were in this small boat with a guide and we were coming across this lake and the wind was blowing

00:35:47.860 and the white caps were heavy and the rain was blowing sideways and the bow line gets caught in the

00:35:52.640 motor. And suddenly we are without power. The wind kicks the boat sideways immediately. The waves

00:35:58.700 start coming in. You know, I'm doing the quick analysis of, okay, I think I'm going to get

00:36:03.340 hypothermia, but I'm pretty sure I can swim to shore. What do I grab when this boat sinks? And the guy

00:36:09.920 looks at us and he says, can we paddle? Can we make it to shore? And so you pull the paddles out.

00:36:14.440 One of them's half broken and we're paddling for all our lives. That was the best part of the trip.

00:36:19.720 But yeah, it wasn't the sunshine, right? It wasn't dessert. It was that. It was those

00:36:28.100 environments because it calls you out as a man. It is. It's so true. You know, a couple of years

00:36:34.320 ago, I took some boys in the community on a 17 mile hike, high adventure hike. There was a couple

00:36:39.780 of points where it was miserable and they were complaining and they were tired and they want to

00:36:44.160 hike and they were sore and they've got these 30 to 50 pound rucks that they're carrying around.

00:36:48.880 But now it's been, let's see, it's been about two years, maybe even three years now and they still

00:36:54.620 talk about it. But like you said, they don't talk about doing s'mores at, at the fire. They talk about

00:37:00.520 when it was raining and how we were tired and they didn't have any sleep. And they say it with a smile

00:37:05.700 and a twinkle in their eye. It's pretty incredible to see and participate in.

00:37:09.760 Exactly. Bingo. You ask guys to tell you about some of the best moments in their lives. They're going to

00:37:16.360 tell you stories like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about this third one. And I'm really

00:37:21.460 curious. This is one of the things that I really wanted to address is when we talk about a beauty

00:37:25.120 to rescue, obviously I think we're talking about women, but is it, is it more than that? Is it

00:37:29.980 different than that? Is it in addition to women? Help me understand this. Okay. So the core of the

00:37:36.740 masculine journey is the development of a genuine strength. And I mean, a soul strength. I'm just

00:37:42.940 talking about having big muscles because I've met a lot of guys who, you know, spend their life at

00:37:47.400 the gym and they're cowards inside. It's the development of a genuine strength on behalf of

00:37:53.780 others. Okay. And so I'm looking at this story, the SEAL team that went down to rescue Jessica Buchanan

00:38:01.960 down in Somalia. She'd been taken by Somali pirates and the SEALs come in and they kill all of the nine

00:38:11.540 heavily armed kidnappers. They free the, uh, the gal Buchanan and a second aid worker. And then

00:38:17.300 they're waiting, they're waiting for the extract, the helicopter to come in and get them out of there.

00:38:23.300 But they know they're still in danger. And they tell Buchanan to lie down on the ground and the SEAL,

00:38:29.160 they all lied down on top of her. They literally shielded her from gunshots with their own bodies.

00:38:35.620 Like that's it. That's the core. Now they were rescuing a beauty, so to speak, but it wasn't

00:38:41.280 their beauty. They didn't even, they didn't even know this gal, right? They were just acting like

00:38:45.700 men in a situation that needed them. So yes, I think it, I think it's very core to how men love

00:38:53.280 women. I think it's very core in, uh, dating and in marriage. Yup. But it's also deeply core to,

00:39:01.620 if you have daughters and who you are as a father to them, but then it goes out,

00:39:06.900 it goes out into the community. It goes out into those who are in a position to need you

00:39:12.420 and you coming through for them. Yeah. It makes so much sense. I mean,

00:39:16.680 we're scratching the surface on the conversation that we could have. And of course the book is

00:39:21.340 incredible and your followup work is incredible as well. Killing Lions and some of the other books

00:39:24.840 that you've written. We are unfortunately bumping against time as we wind down, John, I do want to ask

00:39:29.460 you a couple of additional questions. The first one we've been talking about it, but if you had to

00:39:33.640 wrap it up, what would you say it means to be a man? It means to develop a genuine strength

00:39:42.200 that you offer on behalf of others. Love it. Simple, powerful. Love it. All right. How do we

00:39:50.520 connect with you? How do we learn more about what you're doing? The work that you're up to purchase a

00:39:54.560 copy of the book. I know you've got a new book coming out as well. Is it, it might already be out.

00:39:58.360 All Things New. Has the book been released yet? Yeah. Yeah. Came out in September. Yeah, guys,

00:40:03.380 I would say ransomedheart.com is our website. You could also just type in wild at heart and

00:40:09.860 they'll get you there. There's some killer podcasts. There's some series we have for men.

00:40:15.480 There's some free films, a ton of free stuff on there, resources for men that'll really feed your

00:40:22.220 soul. We'll make sure we link everything up so the guys know exactly where to go. And then of course,

00:40:26.400 I'll keep recommending your book and your work to the guys that I work with. John, I really

00:40:30.900 appreciate you. I've been looking to this conversation for months now and you did not

00:40:34.940 disappoint. And I'm really looking forward to building relationship and following you more

00:40:40.300 and learning more about your work. So appreciate you and your knowledge and insight and taking time

00:40:44.380 with us today. Yeah, I'm honored, Ryan. Let's do it again.

00:40:48.860 Man, there it is. Such a powerful conversation with someone I admire and respect as John and his work

00:40:54.040 have been instrumental in helping me become a better man. If you've enjoyed this show,

00:40:58.540 I'd encourage you to pick up a copy of John's book. You will not be disappointed and make sure

00:41:03.820 that you let me and John know what you thought about the conversation by sharing with us on Twitter

00:41:08.400 or Facebook, Instagram, wherever you are. That goes a long way in helping the show reach more men.

00:41:13.040 And of course, I enjoy the feedback from you. Also, if you need the links for the show,

00:41:17.260 including a link to the book wild at heart, you can do that at order of man.com slash

00:41:21.820 one three nine. Now remember, as I close things down today, we have our meetup coming up in

00:41:27.560 Nashville, January 26th and 27th, 2018. And you can get registered for that at order of man.com

00:41:33.880 slash Nashville. And then also make sure you take a look at the iron council where you'll band with

00:41:38.460 other men who are in the same battle as you. You can do that at order of man.com slash iron council,

00:41:44.220 order of man.com slash iron council guys. I will look forward to talking with you on Friday for

00:41:49.180 our Friday field notes, but until then take action and become the man you are meant to be.

00:41:54.400 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

00:41:59.020 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - November 14, 2017

139： Wild at Heart ｜ John Eldredge

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