142： Developing, Operating, and Expanding a Business ｜ Cameron Herald
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Summary
Cameron Harrelleld is a speaker, an author, a business coach, and entrepreneur. He grew his company from $2 million in revenue to over $106 million in six short years. In this episode, we talk about how he did it.
Transcript
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Running a business can be a challenge. I know I own two of them. At times,
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things seem to be firing on all cylinders. And at other times, it seems like I'm just barely
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hanging on. But regardless of where you are with your business, and even if you're an employee of
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a business, there is always, always something to be learned in how to run the operation more
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effectively. My guest today, Cameron Herold, grew 1-800-GOT-JUNK from $2 million in revenue to over
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$106 million in revenue in just six short years, among other amazing business accomplishments.
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Today, we talk about developing a board of advisors, attracting top quality talent,
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creating work-life balance, which I know is a big one for a lot of you, including myself,
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the art of delegation, and how to develop, operate, and expand a business.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart
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your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
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You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is
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who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,
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Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and founder of this
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podcast, The Order of Man. I am glad that you are tuning in with us today. As always,
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you probably know by now that this is a show about becoming a better man, and if you didn't know
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that, you now know what we're all about. We are interviewing the world's most successful men.
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We're distilling their tips and their tricks and tactics and strategies, and then we're
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delivering those straight to you. We have got a great one lined up for you today, as we always do.
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This is on the topic of running a business and an organization more effectively, and whether you're
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a business owner or an employee, you're going to get so much, so much value out of this one
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like I did, so make sure you have your notepad out and you're ready to go. I do, before we get to
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that, want to give you some details on our meetup, which is going to be coming up in Nashville on
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January 26th and 27th, 2018. I've had quite a few people reach out and message asking about it,
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so if you want the details, you can head to orderofman.com slash Nashville to get registered
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and get the details for that. This is also going to be a book launch party. A lot of you guys know
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the book is coming out in February, 2018, so if you get registered, you're actually going to get
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a signed copy a couple days before it's available to everybody else, and of course, you're going to
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get the brotherhood and the camaraderie that is going to be happening. Again, Nashville, 2018,
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January 26th and 27th. It's at orderofman.com slash Nashville. I hope to see you there.
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Now, outside of that, make sure that you subscribe to the show so you never miss a single episode,
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and if you would, please share this podcast with your brother and your father and your friends and
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your colleagues, whoever needs to hear this show. I don't ask that you share a whole lot, and of
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course, it helps to go a long way in expanding the mission of the order and getting the reach out
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there and making sure that more men are getting the information that I think more of us need to
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find out and know about. With that said, guys, let me introduce you to my guest today. His name is
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Cameron Harreld. He is a speaker, an author, a business coach. He works with CEOs and CEOs around
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the world. What I like most about Cameron is his no BS approach to building and scaling businesses.
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He has such an ability to cut to the heart of the matter and eliminate anything, anything that keeps
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businesses from growing. As you did hear earlier, Cameron grew 1-800-GOT-JUNK from $2 million in
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annual revenue to $106 million in annual revenue and has led and operated multiple other $100 million
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businesses. You'll see why that is as you hear Cameron and I talk about scaling businesses,
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the things that keep businesses from thriving, how to make the most of every single minute,
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and to maximize results with employees, officers, and the organization as a whole.
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Cameron, what's going on? Thanks for joining us on the show today.
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Hey, Ryan. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
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Yeah, you bet. I'm excited to talk with you. I've followed you and your work for some time and
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seen what you've done with businesses. I'm really excited because there's a lot of guys who are
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either in the world of entrepreneurship, they own businesses, or they're just getting started.
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And I think having this discussion will really help them have some tools and resources to take
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this thing to the next level if that's what they want to do. So I want to lead this discussion off by
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asking what entrepreneurship even is. I think there's a lot of maybe misconceptions about
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entrepreneurism and what it looks like, how we define that, and maybe even why that's important
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I think entrepreneurship is that when someone sees a problem or an opportunity and decides to
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almost take it into their own hands and is also willing to put some risk at stake. They're willing
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to go out and take their own rewards, but they're also willing to risk along the way. And from the
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outside world, a lot of people think that entrepreneurs are risky. I think entrepreneurs themselves feel that
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it's less risky because they're more in control of their own destiny.
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Yeah, that's a really good distinction. I know for me, I used to be in the corporate world and
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work for other companies. I don't anymore, but that was always a risky proposition from my perspective
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because I did see this as somebody in a way having my fate in their hands and not really a whole lot
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Yeah. And you never know. You're going to wake up first thing in the morning and all of a sudden
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somebody says they're downsizing or you've been fired or they found someone younger or prettier or
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smarter. And it's like, well, shit, how did that happen? I was loyal to you right up until a minute
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ago. Sure. But in the business world, when you're your own entrepreneur, you're the one who's calling
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a shot. So you're never going to get fired. You might get tired. You might get stressed. You might
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run out of cash, but you're at least in complete control. I think we have to be maybe a little
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careful. And I don't know if that's the right word necessarily, but I think especially in this
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digital age that we live in, the podcast world we live in, I think everybody's so quick to say
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everybody should be an entrepreneur and everybody should own a business. So I'd like to know a little bit
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about maybe who should and who should not even consider owning a business or starting their own
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side hustle, if you will. Yeah. I only think about 3% of people should actually be an entrepreneur.
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I did a Ted talk around this seven years ago. It's still on the main ted.com website about raising
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kids as entrepreneurs. And it talks about the fact that, you know, it's nurture and nature that you
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actually have to have the core behavioral traits of entrepreneurship within you. And then you can learn
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how to be a better entrepreneur or business owner. Most entrepreneurs are ADD. So they actually see
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everything that's going on. They don't get completely obsessed with one thing. So that
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attention deficit disorder is actually not a disorder. It's a superpower. Most entrepreneurs
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are bipolar and it's the high energy is why people follow us. The stress and the depression is just
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because we're feeling it all magnified and we kind of crash afterwards. Many entrepreneurs are on the
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spectrum for Tourette's, which is, you know, this thinking out loud. And that's actually an endearing
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trait when people can see where we're going and they understand what we're thinking. And those are
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typically traits. And then we're also kind of calculated. We're good at sales. We're strong
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leaders. So a lot of people don't have those traits. If you do, then you can learn how to run
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a business. But, you know, running a business isn't easy. It's probably one of the more stressful
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things. Yes, you can have free time, but you're also working all the time. There's a lot of skills
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that you have to learn as an entrepreneur. So I think 3% of people should be entrepreneurs.
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It's really interesting that you would bring up three, quote unquote, what the world perceives as a
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disorder, ADD, bipolar, and Tourette's. You basically described me in a lot of ways. And I
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know that I've certainly had times in my life where those have worked to my advantage. And of course,
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times they have not worked to my advantage. So one of the things that you mentioned, though,
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is that entrepreneurs are good at sales. Is that necessarily a prerequisite? Or is this somebody
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who might be able to, you know, start a business, for example, and bring somebody in to do the sales,
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if you will? Or is this like a necessity? No, the sales side is a skill that you can learn and get
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better at. But the sales aptitude or the sales personality, like you're going to have those
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personality traits. You know, you're not going to find very many salespeople that are analytical,
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amiable, and are quiet, right? Most salespeople are dominant and they're expressives. So that's
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a personality trait. Leaders, you're either a leader or you're not. And I had somebody say,
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well, the guy's only 21 years old. How would you know if he's a leader? I'm like, really?
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By 21, I'd been the head cub, head scout. I'd run my newspaper route. I hired people to run
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newspapers. I ran the pro shop at the golf club. I was a busboy who got promoted to a waiter. I was
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on student council three years. And then I was on the leadership team of the student council in my
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last year. I was on the sports executive. And that's by the time I was 18. Oh, then I started
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a fraternity. Like, really? By the time you're 21, you know if you're a leader or not. Don't tell me
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you have to be 30 to figure it out. That's a trait, right? You can learn to become a better leader,
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but you're either a leader or you're not. You're either the one who's organizing your kids in the
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schoolyard or you're not. And those are traits of entrepreneurship that I think if you can see
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them in someone, you can say, wow, those are really strong skills and traits. Let's groom them.
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Typically, what happens in the school system is we say, wow, that person isn't like everybody else.
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We should try to make them like everybody else. We should tell them to sit still and pay attention
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and memorize stuff and sit in the back of the room with the other kids and go to detention because
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they're acting out. Well, entrepreneurs do act out. Entrepreneurs do talk a lot. Entrepreneurs
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do think out loud. Entrepreneurs do problem-solve. Entrepreneurs like the shortcuts. We like the
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cheat sheets. We are going to be a little bit scattered. And we're just not supposed to be
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like teachers. We're not wired like teachers. We're not wired like engineers. We're not wired
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like doctors. So they diagnose this as having a disorder. But if you look at Henry Ford and
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Richard Branson and Steve Jobs, like all diagnosed as bipolar or hypomanic. Richard Branson is dyslexic
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and bipolar. Like, give me a break. These are disorders? No, these are superpowers.
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If I read you the 11 traits of bipolar disorder right now, I can virtually guarantee that if
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you're an entrepreneur, you're going to say yes to nine or 10. If you're an accountant or
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an engineer or a teacher, you'll probably say yes to one or two. Interesting. Yeah, we'll
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have to look that up. Maybe we can even make a link in the show notes because that would
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be interesting to actually run through that because I think there's power in just having
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an understanding of who you are and why you behave the way that you behave. And then I
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think you can create a life around those patterns and behaviors, right? Yeah, totally.
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And if you recognize that these are strengths, like attention deficit disorder, if you recognize
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that ADD means you're scattered, that you see everything, that you're distracted by everything.
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Well, in the business world, that means I can see what's happening with the customer,
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the market, the economy, my employees, financials, the pulse, the culture. I can kind of see what's
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happening with the wrong customers, good customers. I get it, right? But I don't get too obsessed with
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anything. And if I do, I get really obsessed for maybe 15 or 20 minutes and then I get bored and I
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delegate it to somebody. Shit, that's actually a good entrepreneur, right? But if you're so focused,
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laser focused like an engineer is, you miss everything else. Well, great. So now you're
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really focused, but you've missed what's really happening.
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So based on what I'm hearing you say, I think self-awareness is probably a critical skill as
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well. Because if you are that quote unquote ADD and scattered maybe a little in your thoughts or
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onto the next object very quickly, I think you need to at least to some degree be aware of that
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so that you can then delegate to somebody who might be more of an analytical or some other
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trait that you aren't as strong with. And that's where the skills start to come in,
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that you start now hiring people to surround you that have different personality profiles for you.
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You hire some high D's and some high S's. You hire people with Colby profiles that are high
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fact binders and follow throughs because you're more of a quick start. So you start recognizing that
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you need to hire skill set and personality profiles to strengthen you so that you can pass off to those
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people. Much like a quarterback. You know, a quarterback may not be the fastest runner or
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the best receiver, but he can pass to those people or hand off to those people. So you start
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recognizing that as an entrepreneur as well. Where the classic student, the really strong A student
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believes that they have to be the smartest person, that they have to memorize everything and know
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everything. They make terrible entrepreneurs because they're always trying to be the smart one.
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It's why a lot of MBAs are never really good as entrepreneurs. And a lot of the C students are
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fantastic entrepreneurs because they figured out the cheat sheets and the shortcuts and to delegate.
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Or that in this particular instance, I don't need an A, I just need to pass so I can get the degree
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and do the thing, right? Right. I call it minimum viable everything. You don't just need a minimum
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viable product. Like how about just a great website or a good website? How about a good marketing campaign?
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Not a great one. Just get stuff out the door instead of obsessing about everything about being
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perfect. Let's just get it out the door. Yeah. We just released a podcast interview with
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John Acuff, who I'm sure you're familiar with. And he talks about the myth and the demise,
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I guess, if you will, of perfection and how crippling it can be towards your growth. It's really
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interesting you talk about this because I just started coaching my oldest son's football team
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and we had our first practice last week and he was a little down on himself because some of his
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teammates are fairly quick. He's a big kid. He's not very fast. And so he was judging himself
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based on what other people were doing. But I thought to myself and had the discussion with him,
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I'm like, look, dude, you're a big kid. You're strong. You're big. If anybody gets in your way,
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you can push them around. And there's something to be said for that. Those kids won't be able to
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do the same things you do. I think it's critical. We understand our strengths.
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Exactly. And in the school system, we're always beat up and told to work on our weaknesses,
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get a tutor because you suck at French or get a tutor to be a stronger or a faster athlete. Well,
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how about no? How about we actually just become a strong one? There's a guy, Bill Eaton,
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who was the number two blocker of all time in the NBA. And he was seven foot four,
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played for the Utah Jazz. And he's like, I can't run up and down the court. The coach goes, don't,
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you should never go past center court. You're too freaking big. Like just walk from the basket
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to center court and from center court to the basket, walk back and forth. Don't run. You'll
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kill yourself. So that's what he did. And here's a guy in the NBA who couldn't run,
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but he wasn't supposed to run. But in the school system, they would have tried to make him a runner.
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Interesting. So in addition to delegation, finding the right people, understanding your
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strengths, what are some things that entrepreneurs should either be aware of as they are launching
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their business or scaling their business? Or we can even talk about separately, what are some
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pitfalls to avoid? The most important thing, and most entrepreneurs fail at this, but the most
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important thing is vision. And it's articulating a vision in a way that everyone around you, your
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customers, your suppliers, your employees, potential employees, that everyone can see what
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you can see. So I actually cover it in really good detail in two of my books, in Double Double
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and also in The Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs. I talk about a concept called a vivid vision.
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And the vivid vision is a four or five page written document that describes your company
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in vivid detail three years from today. So almost like you lean out to December 31st,
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three years from now, and describe your company in vivid detail. You describe marketing and IT,
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describe finance and operations. You describe what the customers are saying about you,
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what your employees are saying. You talk about what the media is writing about you. And you
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don't worry about how it happens because you're not sure how it happened. But you describe it in
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that detail and then your team can figure out how to make it come true. Typically what happens now is
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entrepreneurs give them a mission statement and a BHAG, your core purpose, but no one's really clear on
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what the business looks like. So if you can have that real clear vision, then people can figure out how.
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I've done things similar to what you're talking about, probably not as in depth or to the degree
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that you're talking about. And I've done these mission statements and these sorts of things
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and to play devil's advocate and a little bit in my experiences, I do it and it feels good and it
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feels warm and fuzzy for a week or two or whatever it may be. And then I forget about it or don't even
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address it with anybody down the road. How do we ensure that we are communicating this vision and
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then actually implementing what it is it talks about? Vision without execution is hallucination.
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And that was kind of Thomas Edison. So here's how it works. I took a model of a contractor or a home
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builder and applied it to the business world. If I was building a house, the homeowner is really the
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CEO. The homeowner knows what they want the house to look like. They've got pictures and drawings and
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sketches. That's kind of the vivid vision of what the home looks like. Now the contractor takes all
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those visions and goes away and comes up with a plan, the blueprints to make the vision come true.
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So in the business world, we need to now take the vivid vision and create the three-year,
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two-year, and one-year plan and then the quarterly plan for the first year.
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And then you hand that plan or the blueprints to the workers and the workers can now build the
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homeowner's dream. So now you hand the plan to your employees and you hire employees that have got the
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skills and the right culture fit to make happen what they're supposed to do. Hire people who have
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done what they have to do. And then you coach and train them and they grow.
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So do you suggest that this contractor, if you will, that's a term you used, would be somebody
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else that you've hired and when should you consider making that decision? Because when you get started,
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a lot of times it's, I'm the CEO, I'm the COO, I'm everything, right?
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Correct. So you may play now the homeowner role of getting the vision articulated, which is your
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vivid vision. And then you're going to play the leadership team role of building the plan to make
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your vision. So you'll create your own plan for three years, two years, and one year, really focusing
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on the one-year plan. And then you'll actually be the employees or the workers to start building it.
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So you'll look at different aspects, different parts of the plan, and you'll figure out which
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projects to work on first. It's horrible watching employees and watching companies work on the
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wrong stuff. They're working on projects that are either the big shiny object or they're exciting or
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cool, but they don't have the core foundational pieces in place first. You know, core values,
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core purpose, your BHAG, the right meeting rhythms, the right employee recruiting and hiring and
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onboarding systems, even if you're hiring remote or fractional people. So I kind of try to outline a lot
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of that in Double Double for people as well. You talk about BHAG. I'm not familiar with that term.
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Can you walk me through that? Sure. It's a Jim Collins term for big, hairy, audacious goal.
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Ah, okay. Best example is it's a 20 or 30 year out goal, one that the external world might think is
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crazy, but internally you think is possible. And one that will really drive people and inspire people.
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So a great example of a BHAG is about 30 years ago, Microsoft's BHAG was a computer on every desktop.
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And then about 10 years later, they abridged that to say a computer on every desktop and in every
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household. Now I'm 52 years old. So 30 years ago when I was 22, that was a ludicrous goal.
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Right. Like there was no reason. Absolutely crazy. Yeah. There was no reason in 1987 for a computer
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on every desk. In fact, we had two of them at our office of about 30 people and people were laughing
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going, what do you have two computers for? That's so stupid. And we're like, yeah, whatever.
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Well, here's what else is interesting. So their BHAG of a computer on every desk and later in every
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household was a big stretch, but they didn't even make computers. So their big, hairy, audacious
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goal was to create software that would give people the desire to have computers. And then they licensed
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DOS, the operating system to computer companies and their software. So that even though they didn't
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make computers, their BHAG was about that. It wasn't about a million customers.
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And I hear that. And I think a lot of the times, like we maybe lack that vision or that
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understanding. I mean, how does a company like that, or even just a one man shop get to that
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point where they're starting to have visions like that of these goals?
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You start to come up with something that just feels right. So my BHAG for my company is to
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replace vision statements with vivid visions worldwide, because I just know that vision
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statements, mission statements don't work. And every time a company or a government or anybody
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writes a vivid vision for themselves, for their family, for their business, it actually really
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aligns everyone. So that's my BHAG is to replace them. Now, I can't do it on my own.
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But with the media, with the books I'm writing, you know, Forbes covered me in their physical
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magazine about the vivid vision. The more that people start using it and sharing it with their
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employees, with their suppliers, with their customers, the more it's starting to come true.
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I'm speaking at an event for all the female McDonald's franchisees. I'm the only male speaker to ever
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speak at this conference of about 300 people. And McDonald's has just rolled out
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their prototype of what the ideal McDonald's location looks like three years from now.
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They're literally showing this envisioned future of a McDonald's location with healthier food,
00:19:26.860
more organic farm to table, like really interesting stuff. And they're trying to get
00:19:31.080
the franchisees to wrap their minds around it while they're showing them what the future looks like.
00:19:36.440
How do you build in flexibility with a plan like that? Not only this three-year vision,
00:19:40.000
but then you also talk about working backwards into a one-year plan.
00:19:43.160
How do we make sure that we're incorporating flexibility and new technologies and these
00:19:49.140
Well, that's all the how. If you know where you're going, the how you get there,
00:19:53.100
you can incorporate. So if I'm building a home, I don't want to just build a home and go,
00:19:57.260
here, what do you think? The homeowner will be like, yeah, it's really nice,
00:20:00.160
but I wanted a craftsman style. You built me a postmodern.
00:20:03.160
Now, if we decide that we're going to use new tools or new saws or new leveling equipment or new
00:20:08.200
automation, that's all cool. But at least we have people going in the right direction.
00:20:12.240
People tend to worry that this is going to hamstring someone. Not at all. It actually
00:20:18.140
gets employees excited. I'll give you an example. Have you ever heard the story of the three guys
00:20:22.880
that are sitting out on the sidewalk and they're making bricks? Guy comes up and he goes,
00:20:27.020
what are you doing? He goes, well, I'm making bricks. And they asked the second guy, what are
00:20:30.040
you doing? He said, well, I'm making a wall and I'm actually making the bricks to make a wall.
00:20:34.120
And they asked the third guy, what are you doing? He said, I'm making a cathedral to worship God and
00:20:37.340
I'm making the wall for the cathedral and I'm actually making the bricks that'll build the wall.
00:20:40.620
Who is more inspired and more excited about their day-to-day job? Well, it's the guy who knows
00:20:45.460
where they're going and what they're building. And in the business world, if you're showing up and
00:20:49.020
you're doing pay-per-click and you're focusing on your digital search, but you're not really sure
00:20:52.400
what you're building, at some point it just becomes about search and it starts to lose meaning.
00:20:57.520
And Gen Y especially wants meaning. They want to have value in what they're doing and understand why
00:21:02.100
Well, and I imagine too, if you have this vision and you have this idea of what you want,
00:21:06.820
and that's the what, for example, then the how, you can basically morph and mold and adapt
00:21:12.180
the how in order to accomplish the what along the way, right? And you have something to measure
00:21:17.940
Bingo. Exactly. When you're excited about where you're going, then people can figure out how
00:21:21.520
they're going to get there. And that's when your employees all of a sudden get excited and
00:21:24.540
aligned and they'll figure out and iterate along the way. And if you have this massive change in the
00:21:28.880
world, like a global financial crisis, and all of a sudden the vision of your company completely
00:21:32.500
changes, like you go from being a home builder to a restaurant chain, well, shit, at least everybody
00:21:37.480
knows that and you can get everybody to pivot really quickly. But if they're not really sure
00:21:41.340
where you're going in the first place, they don't even understand why the changes are coming.
00:21:44.960
Right. Yeah. I mean, we've been running Order of Man for two and a half years and we've made some
00:21:48.440
pivotal changes and course corrections along the way, just in a short period of time, because we
00:21:52.380
recognize very quickly that the path we were on is not going to help us, A, fulfill the requirement or the
00:21:57.640
accomplishment that we want, or B, it's not going to help us do it fast enough. And so we've been
00:22:01.480
able to pivot based on that. So that makes sense to me. It makes a lot of sense. I want to go back
00:22:05.500
to something that we were talking about, and that is having somebody else like the contractor, for
00:22:09.820
example, to help you with some of these plans. How do we know when it's time to bring on some help?
00:22:16.800
You know, we've been used to going at it alone and doing everything on our own. What is that point
00:22:21.460
where you should consider bringing on some people and who is that that you should consider bringing on?
00:22:25.220
And by the way, it's another reason why I can't stand the school system is because it's raised all
00:22:29.740
of these people to think that they have to work hard. They have to be the smart person. They have
00:22:33.580
to do it on their own instead of problem solving, working together as a group, realizing that
00:22:37.080
everybody can work on parts of the project. And it's better to have everybody working on it than
00:22:41.580
doing it all yourself. Well, I imagine it's a pride and ego thing too, right? It can be. But again,
00:22:46.940
when you think that most entrepreneurs are ADD bipolar and where most of them were B and C
00:22:51.040
students, they've been beat up emotionally for 18 years, feeling like they had to be the smart
00:22:55.560
ones. As soon as you let go of the pride thing and realize, you know, Steve Jobs didn't build Apple
00:23:00.460
by himself. Is he proud of what he built? Fuck yeah. Right. But he got other people to do it.
00:23:05.140
You know, you teach your son, if he's going to be the best football team, there's no I in team,
00:23:09.440
right? Like you've got to be the best person in your space, but you have to rely on the other people
00:23:13.200
on the field and both sides of the team. So in a business, it's the same thing. I think it's smarter
00:23:18.240
to be the lazier entrepreneur and to delegate and to outsource. I had a client that I coached. I
00:23:23.880
coached big companies and CEOs all over the world. And one of the CEOs I was talking to said, I need
00:23:28.440
to hire someone to do this. I'm like, no, you need to get this done. And he goes, you're right. He
00:23:33.140
goes, I actually don't need a person. I just need this stuff done. So as soon as you realize that I
00:23:37.640
have stuff on my plate this year or this quarter, no, you have stuff that needs to be done. It's not
00:23:43.560
necessarily on your plate. Right. Even the emails that come in, you can delete them,
00:23:47.480
delegate them, drag them to a folder, or you can deal with them later, but you don't have to do
00:23:52.520
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00:24:52.380
This time of year, you're probably thinking a lot about new year's resolutions and what you want
00:24:56.620
2018 to look like for you. But if you're anything, anything like me, you know, that new year's
00:25:01.340
resolutions rarely work out. Uh, that said inside of our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council,
00:25:06.660
we've created a system that allows you to approach things a lot differently and actually produce the
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00:25:21.960
very clear course of action that actually, again, gets the job done. And when you band with us,
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00:25:51.160
slash iron council again, order of man.com slash iron council. Now let's get back to the conversation
00:25:56.760
with Cameron. It sounds like based on what you're saying is that obviously,
00:26:01.120
the mission is critical, right? Get the job done. And however you're going to handle that,
00:26:05.080
whether that's bringing somebody on to help or you doing it yourself or delegating or not doing it
00:26:08.780
all, just getting the job done and progress moving forward. Exactly. And now we get to decide who is
00:26:13.540
going to do it and what's the best use of our three resources, people, time, and money. You only have
00:26:17.640
those three resources. My wife, Kim is amazing at this stuff. She's so good at actually having an idea and
00:26:23.820
starting the idea and delegating to people. It's extraordinary. I learned so much from watching her on her
00:26:28.360
ability to do this. It's amazing. Whereas I get stuck in the radical individualist that I'll work
00:26:34.300
hard and I'll work hard and I'll work hard. I tend to burn out faster. She tends to get more stuff done
00:26:39.400
because she can delegate quicker. Now you have to watch the resources, right? How much do you want
00:26:43.440
to spend on certain things and what things do you want to be doing? But her ability to delegate is
00:26:47.940
amazing to watch. So if you can bring that into the business world, we need to get stuff done,
00:26:52.060
but not necessarily us doing it. Yeah. Because if you delegate everything too soon,
00:26:56.360
yes, you've given yourself the resource of time, but it may have come at the expense of people and
00:27:00.860
or money. Or working on the wrong stuff. Just because we're working on it doesn't mean it's
00:27:05.880
the right stuff right now. Maybe it's stuff we should have done a year from now. If you think
00:27:09.780
about building the home for a second, imagine the guy who gets all excited. Hey, I just installed all
00:27:14.340
the cabinets and put the wolf stove in. The guy's like, dude, we haven't even done the electrical yet
00:27:17.920
or we haven't got the floors done. I'm glad you have the cabinets hung, but we haven't got the floors put in.
00:27:22.760
Which is frustrating because my father-in-law and his sons are in commercial construction and I
00:27:28.220
watch the level of frustration when they do heating and air, they do some plumbing. But when the finished
00:27:33.260
guys or the electrical guys come ahead of them, not only do they have to rip out all the electrical
00:27:37.740
and cut wires and do everything else to do their job. So that's taking extra time and money. So it's
00:27:41.980
not just the cost of doing it in the first place. It's doubling or tripling that because you have to
00:27:45.920
do it again. So all of those are the business lessons that small entrepreneurs need to realize.
00:27:50.940
And that's when I think it is the person who's strong with the ADD because they see everything
00:27:58.480
versus the guy who's just such a good cabinet installer. That's like, install the cabinets,
00:28:02.700
install the cabinets, install the cabinets. Like, dude, we're not ready for cabinets. Don't
00:28:08.320
We are going to appreciate you when we get to that point. We're not there yet.
00:28:11.220
Right. So that's where the classic, someone who's very, very strong with the intention deficit
00:28:15.360
superpower, right? Maybe it's ADS, is better than the person who doesn't see everything because
00:28:21.520
they're a little bit more aware. This art and skill and maybe even science of delegation,
00:28:25.820
is this a natural trait? Is this like the nurture versus nature thing? Or is this a skill that can be
00:28:30.860
developed? I think it's a little bit of a trait. I'm going to say it in the right way, but
00:28:34.440
you have to be inherently a little bit lazy. And I say this with huge respect because again,
00:28:39.940
like my wife that I just talked about being good at delegating, I don't want her to think
00:28:42.440
that I think she's lazy. No, I think we get it. Yeah. I think we understand.
00:28:45.060
Yeah. I have another business friend of mine who started his company 3,000 miles from where he
00:28:49.340
lives because he didn't want to have to go into the office and he wanted to have to be able to
00:28:52.880
delegate. So I think if you're inherently a little bit lazy, you don't want to work that many hours,
00:28:57.820
you don't want to work that hard, you will start to delegate. And you realize that, you know what,
00:29:02.480
my time is better spent on bigger impact things. I get paid $30,000 to do a speaking event. My time is
00:29:09.240
better spent standing on stage than it is doing $20 an hour tasks. So the more $20 an hour tasks
00:29:14.920
I can delegate to free up time to find speaking events, right? Or find someone who can find
00:29:19.540
speaking events. That's better use of my time. I really like this notion of laziness and I've
00:29:23.940
certainly experienced it. I mean, within my own business and family and life, for example,
00:29:28.980
you know, there's, there's, here's my deal. I don't want to work so much so that I can't enjoy
00:29:34.580
time with my family. So my goal is not to be busy. My goal is to not be busy and yet produce
00:29:39.580
better results than I was in the past. And we tend to do better with that in our personal
00:29:44.740
lives. We tend to hire the cleaner or the person to do laundry or the person to cut our grass.
00:29:50.240
Then you can take to the next level. What about the person to change all the light bulbs,
00:29:53.660
to wash your car and to get your car filled up with gas? Like, why are we spending any of that time,
00:29:57.660
right? If you start delegating all that, now how about in the business world? How about someone to
00:30:01.380
check all of my emails and reply to 75% of my emails for me, to book all my appointments, to
00:30:06.420
concierge everything, to book my hotels and book my flights? Like you get all these $20 an hour tasks
00:30:11.280
off your plate to either free up time or to give you a life or to de-stress yourself so that you can
00:30:17.280
work in that maximum zone. And the way that you protect yourself with the bipolar, with the high
00:30:22.180
mania and the low stress depression is I want to work when I've got the most energy and I can't
00:30:26.960
have that good energy if I'm exhausted from the rest of my business life or personal life.
00:30:32.360
I've struggled with that a lot. Like I have struggled. I'm doing a ton of personal growth
00:30:36.260
right now related to my stress level, my anxiety level, my worry level, my workaholic stuff,
00:30:41.700
because it's been impacting everything in my personal life and my business life.
00:30:45.560
Yeah. I mean, I'm going through the same types of experiences and growing pains. And now we're
00:30:50.640
trying to scale order of man and everything else and trying to figure out, is this the right time to
00:30:54.380
bring somebody on? Should I not? What resources do I have? At what expense does this come? And so,
00:30:58.680
man, I'm right there with you. I know a lot of guys listening probably are as well.
00:31:02.240
You had talked about Miracle Morning. We here at Order of Man are a fan of Hal Elrod. He's been on
00:31:06.780
the show before. And I know you came out with a book. I think it was what, about six months ago
00:31:11.140
Yeah. It's about six months ago. Hal and I co-authored the Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs
00:31:15.280
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that sounds like you were talking about is working in
00:31:18.860
some sort of a vivid vision into maybe the Miracle Morning with what you're doing in the morning. Or
00:31:23.100
can you walk me through how that would differ for an entrepreneur versus somebody else?
00:31:28.660
Hal actually talks about the savers and the morning habits. And then what I talked about
00:31:32.460
was almost the rest of the day for the entrepreneur. A lot of the reading. So when Hal talks about the
00:31:37.300
reading in the morning that you want to be doing, what I want them to be reading is their vivid vision.
00:31:42.500
Imagine if you had a vivid vision for your company that you reread every single day. Imagine if you had
00:31:48.020
all of your employees read it every single month. So everyone knew where we were going,
00:31:51.440
but they were focused on today. You talked about that earlier that, you know, I have a vision,
00:31:55.440
but then I kind of put it away after a while. Well, imagine if you read it every single day.
00:31:59.520
If you took five minutes to read the four-page vision for your company. Powerful stuff when
00:32:04.820
you constantly are thinking about the future because it starts becoming your filter for every
00:32:08.300
decision. I also talk about the principles of focus and just really working and focusing on the
00:32:13.080
right things. Focusing your time, focusing your energy, your efforts, and getting rid of a lot of
00:32:17.680
the stuff that's on our plate. So I spend a lot of time in the book talking about that.
00:32:20.640
And then the third area I talk about is hiring the second-in-command. And at some point when
00:32:25.760
your business gets to be a certain scale, you really want to hire that yin and yang,
00:32:29.760
that second person. And you don't necessarily even have to give them equity, but it's a person
00:32:32.760
who can literally take all the stuff off your plate that you might be excellent at, but drain
00:32:36.860
you of your energy so that you're only working on stuff that is high energy and high expertise for
00:32:41.780
you. This is really good stuff because I actually just brought on that position within our organization.
00:32:46.760
And I will admit it was stressful at first for the first 60, 90 days, very stressful
00:32:50.880
trying to unload my plate with the things that I shouldn't be doing and focus on the things I
00:32:55.420
should. But these last 60 days or so, 30, 60 days have been very liberating for me knowing that I no
00:33:01.700
longer have to do any of this stuff that frankly I didn't enjoy in the first place.
00:33:05.600
Exactly. Yeah. And once you start releasing yourself of that, it can get pretty powerful.
00:33:09.360
Yeah. One of the things that I know that you focus on quite a bit is the notion of
00:33:15.080
meetings. And of course, there's the adage that meetings suck and nobody wants to participate in
00:33:19.240
meetings. And certainly when I have discussions with my team, at times it can be a miserable
00:33:23.460
process, not only for me, but them as well, I'm sure. Can you give me some tips and ideas on how
00:33:28.660
us as entrepreneurs can maybe more efficiently or better run the meetings that I feel like are
00:33:34.940
probably pretty important to have? That was my second book was meetings suck. And the reason I
00:33:39.180
wrote it, I was coaching a CEO one day and he was saying, you know, our meetings suck and my
00:33:42.580
employees are complaining about meetings. And I said, well, how much training have we ever given
00:33:46.100
your employees? Have they had at least an hour's training on how to run meetings, how to participate
00:33:50.540
and attend meetings and on what meetings to run? He goes, nope, almost none of them. I said,
00:33:54.520
how about your leadership team? Have they ever been trained on how to run meetings or what meetings
00:33:57.760
to run? He goes, yeah, I don't think so. I'm like, well, then of course your meetings suck.
00:34:01.220
You have no training. Like it's like sending a kid off the little league baseball.
00:34:04.840
Without knowing how to catch a ball and throw a ball and hold the bat, they're going to come
00:34:08.540
back from their first few practices saying, dad, you know, baseball sucks. Well, no, it only sucks
00:34:12.600
because you don't know the basics. Right. So I wrote meetings suck and broke it into really three
00:34:16.640
sections. The first is how to run meetings. The second is how to attend and participate meetings.
00:34:22.560
And then the third is exactly what meetings to run to build a highly growth focused and strong
00:34:27.120
culture company. So it's really written for all employees at all companies to read. Give you some of
00:34:32.240
the basics. Every meeting has to have a clear purpose. Just the one sentence. Why are we here?
00:34:37.400
Every meeting can have a maximum of three outcomes. And what are the three main things we're going to
00:34:41.000
get done? And if it's more than three, book a different meeting. Try to limit the number of
00:34:45.700
people you invite to a meeting. And we have to really get better at the whole kumbaya group hug of
00:34:50.480
inviting everyone. The reality is most people don't want to be at the meeting anyway. They'd rather be
00:34:54.880
back at their desk, either doing their work or getting caught up.
00:34:57.240
Well, in my experience, sometimes that even bogs down the system in producing results for the
00:35:03.000
Exactly. So what you want to do is invite the core people to the meeting that you need to have at the
00:35:08.260
meeting that will be highly engaged at the meeting and let everybody else work on their work and get
00:35:12.880
better at saying, no, it's not like I don't like you. I love you out, but I just want you to work on
00:35:16.600
these projects instead of coming to this meeting that I don't think you're going to be able to input
00:35:19.320
on. Is it from there just the idea of delegating and allowing those managers or participants of
00:35:24.380
the meeting to disseminate that information? Because it sounds like chain of command type
00:35:28.220
It's chain of command. It's also when you roll out the meeting to people with the purpose,
00:35:31.720
outcome and agenda, what are we covering and what order are we covering it and how many minutes are
00:35:35.060
we going to spend on each agenda item? I want employees to say, you know what? I saw the outcome
00:35:39.120
and agenda and purpose. I don't really think I need to be there. I'm going to opt out and go,
00:35:42.740
fuck yeah, that's awesome. Like I'd rather have you opt out than show up and not really be
00:35:47.060
and highly engaged. You can save probably 12 to 20% of your company payroll just by running
00:35:53.160
highly effective meetings and by having the right people showing up and running them in the right
00:35:56.580
way. Interesting. I think you got through three of them. So, and I think I cut you off there.
00:36:00.880
Sure. No agenda, no attenda, right? If I'm not going to, if I'm going to request someone to show up
00:36:04.500
for a meeting and by the way, a meeting is anytime you have two or more people showing up for a phone
00:36:08.120
call, video call or an in-person meeting. So two or more people. If I don't say what we're covering
00:36:12.580
and how many minutes we're covering it and what we're covering in what order,
00:36:15.420
why would I say yes to attend? So just allow people to say, I'm not sure if I'm coming until
00:36:20.240
you show me what the agenda is. Every meeting has to start exactly on time. And we really have to
00:36:25.800
stop this whole, like, sorry, I'm late. Sorry, I'm late actually means F you. I'm selfish. I'm
00:36:30.400
disrespectful. My time's more valuable. Right. You would never show up for an Olympic swim race
00:36:34.720
if you were a swimmer and come running out onto the pool deck at eight o'clock for the eight o'clock
00:36:39.160
gun and go, Oh, sorry, I'm late. Like, no, you'd be there. Now I'm here. We can begin now.
00:36:43.040
Right. So if you're not five minutes early, you're late. And this is a saying that I learned
00:36:47.140
from my father-in-law. And the whole point is to show up at the meeting, have your head checked,
00:36:51.740
put the phone down at the door on a table by the door. You check your phone. If you can't leave
00:36:55.740
your phone at the door for a half hour to be at a half hour meeting, don't come to the meeting.
00:36:59.500
I want you fully focused on the meeting. When you go back out of the meeting room,
00:37:02.880
you can pick up your phone and do your work again. And then every meeting has to stop five minutes
00:37:07.320
prior to the scheduled ending time. That's what allows people to show up on time for things. So if
00:37:12.140
we're on a call from 10 o'clock till 11, we finish at 1055. That allows us to go down the hall,
00:37:18.060
talk to our assistant, go to the bathroom, get a cup of coffee, sit down at our desk and start
00:37:24.120
Those are some of the core basics. And that doesn't require a lot of change.
00:37:26.700
It just requires you at the start of the meeting saying, Hey, just a reminder,
00:37:29.280
we finished five minutes early so we can show up on time for everything.
00:37:31.820
Your customers will love that. Your suppliers will love that. And your employees will be finally going,
00:37:36.540
Yeah. It just sounds like putting a little structure behind what it is you're trying to accomplish.
00:37:39.940
I can see how I would be incorporating this this week. In fact, because I've got a couple of
00:37:43.860
business meetings that I need to conduct and I really like this and we'll be implementing this for
00:37:47.840
sure. And I teach my employees and my suppliers and my customers that if you say, sorry, I'm late,
00:37:53.720
what it really means is F you. I'm disrespectful. My kids don't even say it anymore. They don't even
00:37:58.100
say like, sorry about something because they realize like, Oh, sorry, I didn't clean the kitchen.
00:38:01.460
No, it means you're being an asshole because you knew you were supposed to do it. So start respecting me.
00:38:06.220
Right. And clean the kitchen, get it done. Stop saying sorry, correct the behavior.
00:38:09.320
Exactly. So the behavior is, but the only way people can show up on time is to finish the
00:38:14.600
meeting before five minutes early. Otherwise you can't, if we're on from 10 till 11 and we finish
00:38:19.960
right to 11, my 11 o'clock phone call, I'm now late for or my 11 o'clock meeting. I'm now late for
00:38:25.620
it. You can't finish something at the same time as starting something else. It's impossible.
00:38:29.220
This is just a level of mutual respect between you and potentially employees.
00:38:33.100
It's mutual respect and it's also a system. So I try to put a system in place instead of blaming
00:38:37.180
the people, people don't fail systems fail. That's Michael Gerber ism. But the idea is how
00:38:41.520
do you put a system in place to allow everyone to show up on time? Well, the system is you finish
00:38:46.300
everything five minutes early, easy. And like it works in every single company.
00:38:51.180
Yeah. I mean, this makes so much sense. Well, Cameron, I know you'd go on all day and we could
00:38:54.860
talk about this all day and there's certainly value to this. I want the guys to be able to connect
00:38:58.460
with you and get a little bit more information. So I'm going to give you a chance to do that.
00:39:01.600
Before we get into that, I do want to ask you the question that I presented a little bit
00:39:05.840
earlier. And that question is, what does it mean to be a man?
00:39:08.960
Yeah, that it's funny. You said that at the beginning. I'm like, wow,
00:39:11.620
I'm struggling with this one right now. And I'm struggling with it possibly because of the age
00:39:16.520
I am. I'm going to be 52 next month. And I was raised in an era where men were tough and held
00:39:22.080
their emotions and they were blue jobs and pink jobs and men worked and women were at home.
00:39:27.520
I grew up with a mother who raised me and did the baking and made our clothes and cut our hair.
00:39:32.140
And she was a homemaker. But now I'm married to a woman who is industrious and entrepreneurial and
00:39:38.640
sexy and smart and fun. And she does some of the blue jobs. In fact, she does a lot of the blue
00:39:42.620
jobs around the house. And I kind of like doing some of the pink jobs around the house and I'm
00:39:46.380
more in touch with my emotions. So I think what it means to be a man now is really embracing
00:39:50.280
the full spectrum, right? And embracing all aspects of our sexuality, our sensuality, our brain,
00:39:56.180
our being in touch with others, being in touch with ourselves. It's a little more complex than it
00:40:00.400
used to be. Yeah, I agree. Certainly. And I know it's complex because we've got a hundred and
00:40:04.900
I think 40 men at this point all give us a very different answer, but I appreciate each and every
00:40:10.180
one of them. I'm sitting looking at a picture of you and you've got this huge man beard on and then
00:40:14.020
you've got this gel in your hair. And my grandfather would be like, what's the dude doing with all that
00:40:17.560
gel? He looks like a girl, but then he'd be going, but his beard, he looks like a guy. So what it means
00:40:23.840
to be a man is changing in my world. Yeah, certainly agree. Well, Cameron, I appreciate you. I appreciate that
00:40:28.560
insight and certainly valuable as well. How do we connect with you, learn more about you,
00:40:32.260
pick up a copy of your books, just figure out what you're up to, if you will.
00:40:35.900
Sure. So all the books are available on Audible, iTunes, or Amazon. So Double Double,
00:40:40.480
Meeting Suck, and The Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs are all available on those three
00:40:43.820
areas. And then my main website, CameronHerald.com is where they can see my speaking events or get more
00:40:48.760
of the resources. It's probably the best areas. Right on. We'll make sure we link that up so the guys can
00:40:53.040
find all of that stuff. And I got to tell you, I appreciate you. I was excited about this interview
00:40:56.500
anyways, in this conversation we were going to have, but there's some information in here that
00:41:01.000
I'm actually going to apply this week. So this has been helpful for the guys, I'm sure. And it's
00:41:05.120
certainly been helpful for me. So I want to thank you for who you are. Thank you for how you show up
00:41:08.980
and let you know. I appreciate your time. Thanks, Ryan. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
00:41:13.580
Gentlemen, Mr. Cameron Herald. I hope that you're walking away from this one with as much as I am. I took a ton
00:41:18.620
of notes and I know I'm going to be implementing a ton of this stuff into my own two businesses. If you enjoyed
00:41:24.120
what Cameron and I had to share today, please let us know on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook,
00:41:28.700
wherever you are. I really enjoy the feedback that I get from you guys. And it helps me put
00:41:33.180
together a podcast that you enjoy and gain a lot of value from. Remember, as we wind things down
00:41:38.440
today, we have our meetup slash book launch party in Nashville, January 26th and 27th, 2018.
00:41:44.860
You can get registered at order of man.com slash Nashville. And also make sure you take a look at the
00:41:50.960
iron council where you're a band with other men who are in the same battle as you are.
00:41:55.120
You can do that at order of man.com slash iron council. I will look forward to talking with
00:41:59.640
you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then take action and become the man you are meant
00:42:04.600
to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:42:11.600
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.