143： The Appearance of Power ｜ Tanner Guzy
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Summary
In this episode of The Order of Man, my good friend Tanner Guzzi joins me to talk about what it means to be a "masculine" in the modern world, and why it's important to have good style.
Transcript
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Every time I bring up a conversation about style as it relates to masculinity, I'm met with
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hesitation because quote-unquote real men don't care about what they wear. While that sounds good
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to say, it just isn't true. If it were, we'd all walk around naked or in a baggy t-shirt and
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sweatpants everywhere we go. Besides, your style is a powerful tool in building influence,
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gaining confidence, and creating opportunities for yourself. My guest today is my good friend
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Tanner Guzzi with Masculine Style. I have learned more from him about what I wear, what it says
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about me, and how it's perceived by others in the last couple of years than I have the rest of my
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life. And while it's hard to quantify the results dressing well produces, there's no doubt there's
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a connection between what I look like and my income, confidence, and influence. You're a man
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of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When
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life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily
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deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This
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is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call
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Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of
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this podcast, The Order of Man. Whether you are new to the show or you've been around for
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years, you are listening to the show about becoming a better man. I know I'm biased, but
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when I set out on this journey to become a better man almost three years ago, I would have never
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imagined that it would have grown to what it is today. And it's a testament to the fact
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that we as men want a place that hasn't been impacted by the rampant dismissal of men that
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we see perpetuated by much of society today. The fact is that the world is starving, starving
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for real men who step up as protectors and providers and leaders in their family, their
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businesses, their communities, every area of life. And that is what we're all about
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here. So each week we interview the world's most successful men on the home front, the
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business front, the front lines, wherever that we're expected to show up. And we extract
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their lessons, insights, and all of the information so you and I can replicate their results.
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Now, before I get into the meat of today's show, I do want to let you know that we still
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have some tickets available for our meetup. This is going to be held January 26th and 27th,
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2018. It's coming up quickly. That's going to be held in Nashville. In addition to the
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keynotes and the brotherhood and the camaraderie that comes with that. This is also a book launch
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party and everyone who tends will get a signed copy of my new book, which is going to be released
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February 1st. So do not wait to get your tickets. We are going to sell this thing out.
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You can head to orderofman.com slash Nashville again, orderofman.com slash Nashville. Gentlemen,
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my guest today again is my friend Tanner Guzzi. Tanner and I met years ago. In fact, he was the
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second guest that I ever had on this show. I used to balk at the idea of dressing well,
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because I thought it was more about what's inside a man than what he's wearing. And while of course
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that's true and there's validity to that, our style says a lot about who we are. Tanner is a deep
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thinker, which I certainly appreciate. And he goes well beyond how to wear a suit and what shoes go
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best with what pants. He delves deep into the why and the psychology of what we wear and how it
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produces results in our lives. And that's what we're all about here, producing results. And if I can
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take just one thing about what I wear and improve that, and it's going to help me in my life, you can
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bet I'm going to do it. Tanner is going to show us how. Tanner, what is up, man? Glad you're back on the
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show. Dude, Ryan, so good to be back on here with you. I was actually looking at this last night
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because I knew we were going to have this conversation. Do you know what number episode
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that you were first on? Cause this is a repeat visit for you. Right. Was I number two? I think
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you were number three. Number three. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. It is crazy. It's been almost two
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and a half years since we had a followup conversation now. Well, and obviously all of your success is
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attributable to that one conversation that you and I had in episode three. So without that,
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I just don't think we would be where we are today. Well, we've obviously built a friendship
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over the past couple of years or so, almost three years now. And I've got to tell you,
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I've learned more about you or from you, I guess I should say about style and how to incorporate this
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in your life than I've ever learned in my entire life about what it says about the things that we
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wear. So I'm really interested and excited to have this conversation. I appreciate it. And I,
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yeah, I'm just, I'm excited to talk about this with you, your insights on the relationships
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between what it is that makes men, men. It's going to be fun to talk about how style plugs into all
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that. Well, it's really interesting because when you talk about men being men, I think the last thing
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on a lot of men's mind and more specifically, probably our audience's mind is this notion of
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dressing better. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, most guys that would be within the very bottom tier of how
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you would define a man who's either a good man or being good at being a man is what he wears.
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Why do you think that's the case? Cause I think about this, even if I were to rewind,
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you know, five years or so ago, when I think about dressing better, I'm looking at a picture
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of you on your Skype profile right now, and you've got the suit and the tie and you look the part,
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but that's not necessarily what it means to dress better. Although I think a lot of men probably
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think that's what it means. Yeah. And I think that's one of the big reasons why there's this
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disconnect. I think part of it is that we get into this idea of a suit and a tie is the
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only way to dress well, or it's the only way to have style. Therefore, if I don't fit within that
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particular mold, then style is irrelevant. And there are plenty of guys who are masculine men
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who don't fit into the suit mold. Therefore there's no causal relationship or even a correlation
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between the two. So it shouldn't matter. Where did that come from then? Because there's no denying
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the fact that men believe that. Where did that notion come from?
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I would argue that that's attributed to two things. The first one was the idea of the cultural
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revolution that happened with the baby boomer generation. Because prior to that, the majority
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of men within Western civilization, and especially within the United States, whether you were a blue
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collar worker or white collar, or you were a movie star or a politician or anything else, you wore suits.
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It was just the uniform of men is that they wore suits. And yes, they would be made of different
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materials or they would be cut differently based on the decades or styles or the environments in which
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you worked or things like that. But it was a largely homogenous uniform. And then when this cultural
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revolution amongst the baby boomers started to happen, and they rejected everything that had to
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do with traditionalism, obviously, the uniform of traditionalism was one of the first things that
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went out the door. Now you couple that with everything that's happened within the United States
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and Western culture since then, where we're no longer a homogenous culture, but we really are so
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diverse. And there's so many different ways that value is measured and status is measured and all
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these different things about how you fit in with the world are determined. And so even if it wasn't
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this rejection of suiting as far as we don't like tradition, but just this idea of, you know, that's
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not appropriate in so many different cultures, or it's not how status or achievement or mastery or
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anything else is actually expressed anymore. You know, you look at like the tech industry, if you live
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in the San Francisco Bay Area, a suit does not signal that you're successful, it's actually kind
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of the anti uniform for the guys who are successful there. And so you've got the overarching idea of
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rebellion, plus the diversification of different societies. And all of a sudden, the suit doesn't
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mean what it used to. So there's no reason to think of it as the standard uniform of masculinity.
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How do these trends get established? Because you're talking about Silicon Valley, and the trend is
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no longer the suit. And the fact that we've gone away when it comes to baby boomers from that
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traditional suit and tie type look, how do these trends get established? Because I've seen some
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people wear some wild stuff that just doesn't stick. And I've seen other things like come into fashion
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and out of fashion into style out of style, how does it actually stick? So this is one of the things
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that actually cover in the book that I think is really interesting to think about. Because a lot of
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times, especially when you talk to guys who are into style, and they're trying to kind of start
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new trends, or they're following new trends, they will give this idea that as long as you're
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confident, you can wear whatever you want. And that's very kind of common within the style community.
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But it doesn't work like that. Because you can confidently show up to work one day at a bank
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wearing a pink gorilla suit. And it doesn't matter how confident you are, it's going to have very big
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negative effects on your ability to do your job to be taken seriously by your co workers, your clients,
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even your own self perception. Confidence is irrelevant when it comes to that regard.
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And so when it comes to trends, and who they're started by, and how they take on,
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what it really is, is it's a balance of a man's status within a particular culture or subculture,
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and how he's trying to distinguish himself. And so it's men who are of high status,
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who will use their appearance as a way to separate themselves from everybody else who's beneath them.
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And then the people who are beneath them will start to adapt to recognize that all these guys are
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dressing differently. I want to be like these guys who are higher up. So I will dress like they do.
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And then you eventually have the laggers on who at first don't care at all, but then they finally
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start to recognize it. And then at this point, everybody's dressing the same way. So then the
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top status guys who now have to distinguish themselves another way, will subconsciously start
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a new trend or start dressing in a way that's different as a way to separate themselves from
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And they do it, I'm sure in a set of parameters, right? Because you talk about the pink gorilla
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suit, for example, there's no way that I'm going to go out in front of my audience wearing a pink
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gorilla suit, but I might do something else. And I can't even think of what that is right offhand.
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Well, the beard, I mean, the beard's a great example.
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It's a perfect example where I do it within a expected set of parameters. And yet it's different
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enough that it is distinguishing, right? Because if you think about it this way, let's take the
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beard, for example. Your beard is something that is very unique and it's part of how you identify
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yourself. But it's also not so out there that other men who subscribe to Order of Man, who are
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part of the Iron Council or anything else, it's not so unique that if they were to grow out a beard like
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yours, then they would be very obvious Ryan Mickler copycats. Whereas if you were somebody who was
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more interested in being an iconoclast as opposed to a leader, the two references I use for this in the
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book are Conor McGregor and Dennis Rodman. These guys have no interest in having people actually
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follow them, but they are relatively high status. Obviously, Conor McGregor is about as high status
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as it gets in the UFC right now. And so he's dressing in a way that's so different that if
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people were to try and emulate his style, it would actually be a signal of their low status because
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it shows that they're directly copying him as opposed to having any plausible deniability where
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it's like, oh no, he's got a beard. I've got a beard. We're beard buddies. We're cool like that.
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It just happens to be the case, right? As opposed to very intentional about that.
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Right. It's one of those things that we don't talk about it. It's totally gouged to talk about
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this directly and overtly. It's something that has to be navigated subtly and subconsciously and
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there needs to be plausible deniability. And so that's where you get guys who will throw bombs and
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it's like, okay, if you're going to dress like me, it's very obvious that you're copying me and
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therefore acknowledging that I'm higher status than you are.
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What is the reasoning behind that? Because I see what in your examples, Dennis Rodman,
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Conor McGregor, and I think you guys look absolutely ridiculous and there's no practicality to what
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you're wearing, but that just might be my personality too.
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Right. And really, if you think about it, it's this idea of, are they trying to be leaders or are
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they trying to be rebels and iconoclasts that totally separate themselves from everybody else?
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Because if your goal is to piss off everybody else around you and make sure that you are recognized
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as the one outlier, then there's huge benefits to dressing in a way that's a complete outlier.
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But in order to have that actually work to your advantage, you have to have the status or the
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skill set or the mastery or anything else to actually back up the attention that you're getting.
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Because some brand new guy to the NBA or to the UFC who can't actually fight or play ball,
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who dresses like that, then he's just called out as a poser. But these guys who are good enough that
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they can distinguish themselves, then it actually works to their advantage.
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And I think also there's the intentionality and the thought process about it. I mean,
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if you look at what we're trying to do, order of man, you hear order, you think society,
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brotherhood, organization, which is inclusive, right?
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Right. So my goal is not to alienate or put myself above or anywhere else, but where the tribe
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is. And so I feel like as the leader, I guess you'd say of the organization, like I still want
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100%. If you were to go back to just doing financial planning, which is what you were doing
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before order of man, and you were to have the long beard where you were within your practice and
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where you were within the overall financial planning tribe or community, it's not like all of a sudden
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I can show up to a financial planning practice in Des Moines and these guys have long Ryan
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Mickler beards, right? Because you weren't high status within that particular tribe or organization,
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but you can very much do that as the leader of the order of man subculture and have men start to
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identify with that and start to adopt similar aesthetics because you've established yourself as
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a leader and your aesthetic is not so far removed from what they would associate with the order of man
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that they will be accused of being flagrant copycats by embracing what your style is.
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Well, let me give you the alternative to this because I actually had four appointments yesterday
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specifically for my financial planning practice, which is few and far between. I just don't do that
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many appointments now that I've been so busy with order of man and the iron council.
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And I wore to those meetings exactly what I would wear on a day-to-day basis. I had my jeans on,
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I had a flannel shirt on, I had my red wing boots on, of course my beard and everything else.
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And yet I walked into the meeting with a sense of confidence that I don't think I possessed three
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years ago. I wouldn't even bore that to a meeting, but you know what? It was kind of like the,
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I don't care, this is who I am. And I think that confidence exude in the actual meeting,
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although it wasn't expected as a traditional financial advisor uniform, if you will.
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100%. And I think that that actually helps solidify the point rather than providing any
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contrast to it because the idea of confidence and authenticity has to be partnered up with these
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other factors that are coming into your style because you can completely 100% embrace the uniform
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of a given tribe if you belong to it. But if you feel like, like if it actually negatively
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affects or impacts your own internal presence, the way that you view yourself, the way that you fit in,
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then that can largely negate a lot of the benefits that come from actually dressing in a way that you
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fit in. And so again, you dressing the way that you do isn't impacting the overall aesthetic of the
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financial planning community at large, but it does have a huge positive impact on your ability to be
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professional and successful with your clients because it's authenticity partnered up with not being so
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out of the norm. Again, not wearing the pink gorilla suit that you're completely typecasting yourself
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You know, I think it's really interesting too, because the other thing that I think it has the
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opportunity to do is create some sort of mystery or attraction or at least curiosity. Like who is
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this bearded financial advisor and why does he think that he can dress like that when everybody
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else dresses differently, which I think is a good thing.
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100% I love that you brought that up. This is actually something I was talking about with my wife of
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all people this morning. And it's the idea that we know what one dimensional characters on TV shows
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and movies look like. And so many men in the world, the way that we dress is that we tell this story of
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being a one dimensional character. I'm into guns and self defense. And so I dress like I'm tactical or
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I'm into books and I'm into video games and comics. And so I dress like a nerd this way or anything else.
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And we just tell these one dimensional stories, but interesting characters in television or any stories
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or interesting men in real life, we have multiple dimensions to us. You may be somebody who's
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physically capable and intellectually capable and financially capable, and you have all these
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different things. And if you can create an aesthetic that actually tells that full story,
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And I think there's also a level of duality. You know, I think about Jocko Willink, for example,
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who is the warrior archetype. He dresses the part, he looks the part, his Instagram and Twitter
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messages and posts are the part. And yet he's also somebody who has a degree in English and is very
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well versed in history and knowledge and intellect in general.
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Exactly. Exactly. Because you take those expectations of the dumb brute or the smart weakling
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and he says, no, I'm screw that. I'm going to be all of it. And he combines it in a way that works.
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Interesting. So let's talk about one of the things you talked about is confidence. And so
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my question is, where does confidence come from? Is it the ability to pull something like this off?
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Or is the way that we look a manifestation of the internal confidence we already have?
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So confidence comes from accomplishing difficult things. You know, obviously that's not related to
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style directly, but I think any confidence that a man attains is because you put yourself outside of
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your comfort zone, you conquer whatever it is that you're trying to conquer, and therefore you recognize
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that you're more capable than you initially thought you were. Right?
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Sure. Yeah. No, this makes total sense. I mean, we talk about this all the time is just do hard
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things. If you're not confident, just do the thing that you're confident about. But I guess the reason
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that I asked that question is because we've all heard the term fake it till you make it.
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Absolutely. So that's where this idea comes in. And it's fun because I was listening to our last
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conversation in preparation for this, just to make sure that we don't, you know, go back and hit on the
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points or anything else. And it was fun to realize that a lot of what you and I had talked about in
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that first conversation has morphed into things that I'm better able to articulate now three years
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later. And one of the things that we did discuss was this idea of balancing authenticity with
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ambition. And that's where this idea of faking it until you make it really can come in because you
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want to dress in a way that puts you a little bit out of your comfort zone. It puts you a little bit
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higher status than what you actually are. It puts you in this position where you actually have to
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change your behavior in order to accurately match up with what the story is that you're telling with
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your clothing and your appearance. And then you actually change your behavior to match the story that
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you're telling with your clothing and your appearance. Now, if you go too far away from that and you can't
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actually deliver what it is you're promising, that's where the dissonance comes in. That's why there's a
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problem. But if you can give yourself a little bit of a push by dressing in a way where you and the
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people around you have higher expectations of yourself, that's where faking it till you make
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it really can come in. It's interesting that I actually had, and we may have talked about this
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in our first conversation. I know I've told somebody else about this. I had a baseball coach who every
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single year we would get the best uniforms, the brand new uniforms, and we'd all have to buy them as
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opposed to other schools that just provided them. And his philosophy and theory, and he always said
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this is, if you look good, you play good. And I believe there was an element of truth to that.
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We had the newest uniforms, the nicest uniforms. We always were the best dressed and looking team
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on the field. And I think our level of play was elevated to some degree because of that approach.
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Right. And then there's nothing to do with what anybody else thinks of you. It's how it affects
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your own perception of yourself and not only what you're capable of, but what you're expected to do
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as a result of putting different clothes on your body.
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Let's talk about the term aesthetics, because this is a term that I know I've heard you say before,
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and a lot of people in the style industry, if you will, will throw that word around.
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I'm a little weary of the word itself, just because I believe that this goes so much deeper than
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the way that we look and our appearance. And it's not all about how we look. I know there's a lot of
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guys who are listening to this now that are probably rolling their eyes thinking,
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it doesn't really matter what you look like. Being a man is way more than just how you look.
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So help me understand where this aesthetic idea actually comes from. And is it valuable in the
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Yeah. Well, and first of all, I would 100% agree with our proverbial guys who are rolling their eyes
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and saying that, because one thing that I will never argue is that the way a man looks is the
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most important, or even that it's a primary thing that we should be concerned about, because it's not.
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The value of a man is created by much more than how we look, but it can be measured and
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communicated by how we look. And that's something that is important, not only to ourselves, but also
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to those around us. And I think one of the things that does make aesthetics so important
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is the understanding. And this is where a lot of the disconnect comes from, because if you think
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about fashion, or if you think about following trends, or even kind of what we were talking about
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earlier, as far as, you know, recognizing where things are going within your tribe and trying to
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signal high status and all that stuff, the thing that can be frustrating about that for a lot of
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men is that it's all very external. It's all very much other men determining value, and therefore I
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have to adapt in order to be able to follow it. And we don't want to do that if we don't have to do
00:21:10.680
that. Whereas true style, and that's where we're talking about this idea of balancing authenticity
00:21:14.940
with aspiration and being able to tell a story that's multidimensional, really good style comes from
00:21:20.240
knowing who you are and what your value is internally, and then discovering a way to be
00:21:25.580
able to express that externally. And not only so that other people can see that and make an accurate
00:21:30.860
assessment of who you are and what you bring to the table, but also so that you can see that and
00:21:35.760
have that reinforced in your head every time you look in the mirror, every time you catch a reflection
00:21:39.920
in an office building, every time you see a photo of yourself. If you see a guy who's got his act
00:21:44.400
together, who lives deliberately, who's able to make the world what he wants it to be, or at least make his
00:21:49.560
world what he wants it to be, as opposed to somebody who's passive or is a slob, or whose
00:21:54.480
main priority is getting through life in a way that's as comfortable as possible. Those are two
00:21:58.620
very different stories that you're telling yourself. And aesthetics has a huge impact on how we perceive
00:22:04.480
ourselves and therefore what we do with ourselves. And I think everybody wants to look good. I don't
00:22:10.480
think there's anybody else. And it's really funny. There's this trend, you know, it's like, I don't care
00:22:14.220
what I look like. And this doesn't mean who I am. But what's really interesting is I think the majority
00:22:18.340
of guys who would even say something like that, just by the notion of them saying that are actually
00:22:22.760
probably trying to illustrate or communicate that they don't care, which means that they're more
00:22:27.020
intentional about the way they look than they portray to be. Yeah, it's antipathy. And antipathy
00:22:31.600
requires more emotional investment than true indifference does. You know, love and hate are not opposites
00:22:39.580
of each other. Love and hate are actually very close to each other. It's when you don't care about
00:22:43.540
something at all. You know, that's the opposite of loving something. And most guys, if they would
00:22:48.180
say, I don't care what I look like, it's like, okay, well then put on a dress or put on the pink
00:22:52.020
gorilla suit or do something that's totally out there and tell me that you don't feel uncomfortable
00:22:56.180
dressing that way. And obviously they will. The guys who truly don't care, they would happily wear
00:23:01.060
that just as happily as they would wear a suit or anything else. And those kind of men are very few
00:23:05.320
and far between. Or they would make their decisions based solely on what is the most comfortable,
00:23:10.380
meaning they'd walk around naked or in boxers. Exactly. Yep. Yeah, this makes sense. Now the
00:23:16.300
title of your book is called the appearance of power. I'm really interested in this because when
00:23:19.860
I hear that title appearance of power, it's almost like I'm trying to be validated by being powerful
00:23:25.760
from some external source, like to appear powerful rather than to be powerful. Help me understand that.
00:23:31.240
Yeah. And that was very intentionally a play on words because once again, I acknowledge that
00:23:35.840
power does not come from appearance. You can look at con men who are very much not who they project
00:23:42.320
themselves to be. And one of the ways that they're so successful in getting their marks to believe them
00:23:46.600
and invest in them is by dressing the parts. And you can have people who dress and look like they're
00:23:52.160
great, successful men and they were 100% or not. And you can have people who dress and look like
00:23:57.960
they're bums and they actually are very successful and very involved fathers and good husbands and all these
00:24:02.280
other things. And so there's not a direct correlation, but we believe there is a direct
00:24:07.380
correlation because it does happen so often that those two are actually interconnected.
00:24:13.300
And so the title of the book came about from recognizing that if you start off with what
00:24:17.900
your own power is, you start off by defining what you are as a man, how masculinity is defined by you
00:24:23.980
and by the men and women who are important to you in your life, by your tribes, and you recognize
00:24:29.100
how that kind of power has been projected, then you can use that as a way to maximize your
00:24:36.560
relationships with other people, to maximize your own self-perception and to increase the amount of
00:24:41.380
success that you have in your life. And I think this is a huge component of influence as well. And I think
00:24:46.640
every man who's listening to this, whether they want to dress well or not, probably to some degree
00:24:51.160
believes in the notion of being influential in the lives of their family or community or employees or
00:24:56.860
employers, whatever it may be. Yeah, 100%. Because I mean, unless you're truly like a hermit,
00:25:03.340
most of us are tribal. We want to be around people who matter to us. And that doesn't mean that we want
00:25:08.620
to care what everybody's opinion of us is. But we do want to be around people who matter to us and honor
00:25:15.120
within that group of people, which is basically their opinion mattering to me and my opinion mattering
00:25:20.000
to them. That's a normal thing. That's a good thing. And one of the ways that that's measured
00:25:24.620
is through how we dress. I mean, you can take it to something as simple as if you go to your
00:25:31.140
favorite college football team's game and you're wearing the colors of the rival team,
00:25:36.280
you are being dishonorable and you're signaling that you don't actually belong to that tribe.
00:25:40.820
And you're going to be ostracized by the tribe as well.
00:25:43.640
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I hope to see you inside. Now let's get back to my conversation with Tanner.
00:27:57.580
What is the distinction between power and appeal? Because you talk about that and make that
00:28:04.500
distinction in the book itself. And I'm really curious as to how you describe and explain this.
00:28:09.440
So I think this is another thing that's really good as far as going back to one of the first
00:28:13.520
questions of why do most men kind of chape at the idea of caring about their appearance.
00:28:18.640
And that's because for most of us who are younger than the baby boom generation, the entirety of our
00:28:24.520
existence has been that caring about the way that you look is for women and not caring about the way
00:28:29.500
that you look is one of the ways that you can express your masculinity, right?
00:28:33.760
Sure. I think that's probably a pretty modern thought. Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay. So part of that
00:28:38.820
is because we have this idea that the only way to care about the way that you look is to try to be
00:28:44.200
more appealing. It's to be sexier. It's to be younger. It's to be trendier or more fashionable or more
00:28:50.140
youthful. And all of those things are very, very good if you're a woman and you're trying to maximize
00:28:55.800
your relationships with other people. But when it comes to being a man, youth is a liability over
00:29:01.620
trendiness and the instability that can be communicated through trendiness can be a liability
00:29:07.000
in experience and all these other things. Those are not core to masculinity. They're counter to it.
00:29:11.660
But if you can dress in a way that does communicate power or achieve status or respectability or
00:29:17.900
self-respect or longevity, then communicating that through your clothing, that's dressing in a way
00:29:23.300
that's powerful rather than appealing. And that's a huge benefit for most men.
00:29:27.580
So if I'm understanding you correctly, appearing to be powerful or actually being powerful is more of
00:29:33.040
a masculine, generally speaking, more of a masculine trait versus being appealing, which would be more
00:29:37.820
of a feminine trait. 100%. This does make sense because I see the value in being powerful. Men want to
00:29:44.900
find other men. And biologically, we've evolved and been programmed to operate this way, to be
00:29:50.080
protectors, providers, and presiders. And the men who are powerful are those things, generally speaking.
00:29:56.660
So I could see why men would want to be powerful as opposed to appeal to other people. It's really
00:30:01.120
interesting because I see a lot of men who take more of the appeal approach. And this is what I think
00:30:08.060
of when I hear the term peacocking, for example. It's to appeal, interestingly enough, to other
00:30:13.900
men, not necessarily to women. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 100%. Again, and that's another thing that's really
00:30:19.540
kind of funny about how we are as men, because a lot of times, and both men and women are guilty of
00:30:25.140
this. A lot of times we think that we dress for the opposite sex, but really what we do is we dress for
00:30:31.080
the same sex because that's where jockeying for status and position and utility, you know,
00:30:36.460
validation and everything else comes from. And then that's reinforced by how attractive we are to the
00:30:41.720
opposite sex. And that's the same thing with the validation from the same sex is a higher priority than
00:30:47.580
an attraction from the opposite sex. Yeah. And most guys don't want to admit that. Interesting. But I
00:30:52.300
really think that that's the case. And I mean, you take that on a very distilled level. Okay, take the
00:30:58.240
gym rats, for an example. When you look at what the majority of women actually respond to when it comes to
00:31:03.660
the build of a man, it's going to be something that's more along the lines of like Brad Pitt in
00:31:08.540
Troy or, you know, something like that. Or Ryan Mickler from Order of Man. Ryan Mickler from Order of
00:31:12.780
Man. That's obviously the aesthetic ideal right there. But then you get these guys in the gym who
00:31:16.740
are going for, you know, Arnold or they're going for as big and as built as they possibly can. And at
00:31:21.520
some point it becomes no longer that women are responding to it, but it's a way for them to measure and
00:31:27.520
determine how masterful they are and how strong they are, which are things that are more
00:31:32.800
validated by other men within their peer group than they are by the women within their peer group.
00:31:37.800
Interesting. Well, and I also think too, if you have, again, these are just generalities, right?
00:31:42.860
If you have a group of 200 men within an organization or a structure or a society or community or whatever
00:31:48.680
it may be, if there's a handful of men that rise to the top through the validation, if you will,
00:31:54.520
in lack of a better term, from the other men, I think women probably also notice that and can see
00:32:00.420
how the other men respect those five and that makes them attractive.
00:32:05.300
Right. Yep. Absolutely. And that's why you can get these different subcultures where
00:32:09.260
it may be something that to most of us, we just look at and go, those guys are weird. Like I don't
00:32:14.720
see the value in that. And that's why you can have very attractive women at Comic-Con or, you know,
00:32:20.920
Magic the Gathering tournaments or things like that. And they still latch onto the men within those
00:32:25.800
subcultures who can demonstrate the highest status amongst the other men within those subcultures.
00:32:32.120
Well, let's talk about how to do this. And I certainly don't want to come across as
00:32:35.940
we're gaming the system because I think when you do try to game the way that you look,
00:32:40.580
it comes across to what your point earlier is disingenuous and inauthentic. And I think people
00:32:46.140
can see right through that. What I might wear is going to be completely different than what you
00:32:49.920
might wear. And if we try to switch roles, I think both of us would probably look fairly ridiculous.
00:32:56.100
So how do we begin to come up with a strategy for articulating who we believe ourselves to be and
00:33:05.280
So I love that you use the word strategy because really that's what it comes down to.
00:33:09.340
When most men start to think about how they want to improve their style, they may look at,
00:33:14.900
okay, well, I don't like the way that I look now. So I'm going to maybe start wearing suits or I'm
00:33:19.080
going to go watch a YouTube video or I'm going to read a book or a blog or something else. And
00:33:22.960
the problem with most of these approaches that they get is they get a lot of information,
00:33:27.400
but most of the information is tactical. It's how to take a specific item or specific group of items
00:33:32.720
and wear them in a way that they work well with each other. But those tactics may be totally
00:33:37.480
inappropriate for a particular man and his situation in life and what he's trying to do.
00:33:42.780
For example, somebody who is 19 and he's in college and he's trying to find a girlfriend
00:33:47.100
should not be wearing the same clothes as a man who's 35 running his business and he's trying to
00:33:52.480
find new clients and he's an attorney. Very, very different goals. And so the first thing that
00:33:57.640
men really should do if they want to start improving their style, and what's so cool about
00:34:01.420
this is it's not gaming the system. It's just taking a proactive as opposed to a reactive approach
00:34:06.420
is if you figure out what your goals are, what it is that's missing in your life or that's just
00:34:11.780
incomplete in your life that you believe that improving your appearance can help contribute to
00:34:17.200
making those things better. And then from there, you break it down into these are my goals and here
00:34:21.920
are some different strategies. And I actually outlined six different primary strategies in the book
00:34:26.280
that help men in any situation and they've been applicable across different cultures and throughout
00:34:31.500
different points in history. And so you look at those different strategies and then you can
00:34:36.660
actually start to apply some tactics and see if those will work for you.
00:34:40.400
I'm really trying to think about my scenario because there's no doubt in my mind and I'm
00:34:44.420
sure dozens of others that I have improved my style over the past five years.
00:34:48.900
But I don't know how strategic I've actually been about it other than I like this, I don't
00:34:54.440
like that, I like the way this guy looks or those boots are cool or those jeans look good
00:34:58.640
and that shirt is right. I don't really know how strategic I've actually been in this process.
00:35:03.860
Yeah. And that's what's cool is it's one of those things for a lot of guys that can actually
00:35:07.120
be a hang up because you see so many men who are naturals who are able to just dress well
00:35:11.180
or dress authentically and are able to do it. So my question to you on that would be
00:35:16.040
what benefits do you think you would have had if you would have been able to do that in
00:35:20.880
a few months as opposed to over five years? And how much money do you think you would have
00:35:25.620
saved if you would have been able to do it that quickly and knowing what you were purchasing?
00:35:30.500
And lastly, do you think you've already arrived at the ultimate benefit of your appearance
00:35:35.300
or do you think that there's still more that you could improve on by taking a more strategic
00:35:39.180
and goal-oriented approach with it? I want to go to your question about
00:35:42.360
the money saved because there's definitely that, but then there's also the money that I've left on
00:35:46.220
the table as well. And I believe that the ability that I've had to improve my appearance,
00:35:52.040
maybe slower than I ought to, is a direct translation to potentially the income that I can earn as
00:35:59.660
And I certainly haven't arrived. I think the way that we look is fluid, right? And it changes and
00:36:04.240
it evolves and it grows and it morphs. And I'm sure if I looked at the very first video that I did
00:36:07.840
when I started Order of Man, I'd probably ask myself, what the hell was I wearing?
00:36:12.120
In five years, I'll probably say the same thing about the video I did today, you know? So I do
00:36:16.440
believe it's always evolving. And I think the quicker that we can do this, the better off we'll
00:36:20.440
That brings up another really good point because you're right. If your appearance isn't evolving
00:36:25.160
as you do, then either one, you haven't evolved as much as you thought you have, or two,
00:36:30.700
you're leaving opportunities on the table to further the benefits of that evolution. And so
00:36:35.860
you're missing things out. And as your life evolves over the next 5, 10, 20, 25 years,
00:36:41.380
do you want to continue to haphazardly try and get it right? Or do you want to develop a more
00:36:47.980
strategic goal-oriented approach so that you can always be maximizing the benefits that come from
00:36:53.320
having your aesthetic evolution match the evolution of all the much more important components of who you
00:37:00.080
Well, one of the things we always, always talk about is intentionality. And a lot of the times
00:37:03.780
we're talking about, you know, the way we plan our goals or the way that we eat or the way that we
00:37:07.640
work out or the way that we communicate with our spouses. But very rarely does it come from this
00:37:11.560
context of the way that we look and what we wear. But I think it's, it's a crucial part of it,
00:37:16.200
intentionality and being deliberate about the way that you show up.
00:37:19.080
Yep. Especially because it does communicate things to yourself, to your spouse, to your kids,
00:37:23.340
to your boss, to your clients, to everybody. And if you need to be intentional about the
00:37:28.380
language that you're using, the tone of your voice, your body language, how present you are
00:37:32.580
with these other components, you're just contradicting yourself. If you're not applying
00:37:37.080
that same intentionality to the clothing that you put on your body, especially because just like
00:37:44.800
Right. Yeah, it is. You're in the thing, whether you want to be or not, you're doing it.
00:37:50.700
Yeah. Good call. Well, for the sake of time, we don't have time to go through the strategies that you lay
00:37:55.100
out in the book. Although I have read the entire book. And in fact, I gave a little blurb slash
00:37:59.260
endorsement for the book. I think that highly of it and the work that you're doing. But there is one
00:38:03.620
that really stands out to me that I wanted to ask you about. And that is taste. I really wanted you
00:38:08.440
to break down this concept and idea of taste because that one was a little bit more difficult
00:38:14.240
Okay. So taste in these six different strategies is the fourth one. So you've built upon other layers of
00:38:21.080
what works with your body, your different style archetypes, and then the tribes,
00:38:24.380
the expectations around you. And then taste is where it really starts to come together with
00:38:28.460
this idea of authenticity. Because if you're just wearing the clothing that's expected of you
00:38:35.000
within one particular group that you belong to, then you're nothing really more than just a drone.
00:38:41.600
And in some environments, in some situations, that can be a good thing. You think about the
00:38:45.740
military, for example, like there's no room for personal taste in uniform or even appropriate in
00:38:51.240
It's totally inappropriate. That's detrimental to the goals of what you're trying to accomplish
00:38:58.520
But most of us don't fit within that. And even when you're within what some people would consider
00:39:04.360
a more rigid hierarchy like a white collar business where, yeah, you're expected to wear
00:39:08.540
a shirt and tie or a suit every day, there's still room for personal taste as far as expressing
00:39:13.320
different things about what makes you you, how you add those second and third dimensions so that
00:39:18.360
you're not just a one dimensional character. Maybe you pull some aesthetic cues from other
00:39:23.580
tribes or other groups that you belong to. Maybe you're using that taste as ways to demonstrate
00:39:28.900
things like mastery or courage. Or maybe you're more interested in strength or in honor, you
00:39:35.520
know, communicating these kind of different masculine tactical virtues. And so taste is really
00:39:39.800
taking everything that you know about who you are and what value you bring to the world,
00:39:44.480
and then finding out a way that you can express that through your clothing. And one of the reasons
00:39:49.200
I think you struggled with that and why I think that that is so hard is because you can't just go out
00:39:54.160
and buy a shirt that says mastery. That doesn't communicate anything. It's so much more subtle and
00:40:00.560
subconscious and indirect and all of that. And that's where there definitely is a need for
00:40:05.580
experimentation and giving yourself permission to make mistakes and try things and figure out where
00:40:10.500
the lines and the boundaries are. But by learning how to combine what it is that makes you a good
00:40:16.220
man internally, and then seeing other men who may share those values and seeing if they have
00:40:22.060
things that are kind of common denominators or common threads in the way that they dress or the way that
00:40:27.040
they look and then starting to implement some of those things. It's ways for you to start to
00:40:31.240
experiment with what your own personal taste is.
00:40:33.700
So I've got two examples of how I see what you just laid out would work in my life and did work out in
00:40:38.480
my life. In high school, when we went to prom, there was about five of us. You wear the tux and
00:40:43.800
you do the thing and you wear what you're supposed to wear, but all of us decided to wear chucks
00:40:47.220
as our shoes. And this was appropriate, right? We wore the tux. We met the requirement. We met the
00:40:52.960
standard. And yet as the quote unquote jocks of the school, we were rebelling and we were saying
00:40:58.300
that we are independent of the rest of you, number one, and we are above following the rules even to
00:41:04.980
some degree. Perfect. So that was one example. The other one that I did is in the military ball.
00:41:09.840
When I was in the military, we wore our dress uniform and all of us in the section that I was
00:41:15.600
part of actually wore red bow ties as opposed to, I think it was just a black tie is what we were
00:41:20.800
supposed to wear. And yet again, same thing. We are representing unity within our section and we
00:41:25.660
were rebelling saying that we can do whatever we want. You guys have to follow the rules. We're not
00:41:29.660
going to 100%. Absolutely. And it doesn't even always have to be rebellious as far as like a
00:41:35.280
complete rejection of other people or anything else. Cause even like, why do you like your long
00:41:39.960
beard more than you liked it when it was shorter? What is appealing about that to you?
00:41:43.980
I don't know. I don't know if I can even articulate what that is. I think I just,
00:41:47.440
I like it. I, you know, one of the things that I do like about it is the fact that I can have
00:41:51.880
conversations with other people about specifically my beard. It's a great icebreaker and a short beard
00:41:57.100
didn't do it like a long beard does. Right. Okay. That makes perfect sense. And now you've
00:42:01.140
had it for so long. You've been seen enough with it that it become part of who you are as Ryan
00:42:05.880
Mickler and what's represented with order of man and everything else. You could still do order of
00:42:10.260
man just as well. If it were something else besides the beard that communicated what the beard does,
00:42:14.940
but your own personal preference was you're going to grow the beard out long. That's a great
00:42:18.760
manifestation of the tribal expectation or even the expectation of your rugged archetype. But then the
00:42:25.380
manifestation of it is done through a beard as opposed to something else.
00:42:28.980
Let's talk about the archetypes real quick as we kind of wind down here. Talked about the rugged
00:42:32.960
archetype, which I would consider me falling into that archetype. What are the, define that first for
00:42:38.600
me and then talk to me about the other two archetypes. So the archetypes are the easiest way to start to
00:42:43.680
separate yourself from the other men around you, or even just from other potential ideas of what good
00:42:49.100
style could be. Because again, good style is not just wearing a suit. You can have guys who manifest
00:42:54.000
and demonstrate really good style in different points in history or in different cultures or even
00:42:59.880
within, you know, the United States in 2017. There's different ways to express that. And so if you can
00:43:04.720
first identify how you primarily interact with the world around you, for someone like you, rugged, where
00:43:10.340
you enjoy working with your hands, you enjoy pushing yourself physically, you enjoy bending nature to your
00:43:16.440
will, the rugged archetype makes sense. The other two are refined and rakish. And men who fit within that
00:43:21.660
refined archetype, that's where I fall. I like rules. I like structure. I like society. I like
00:43:26.280
civilization. I like being able to navigate things based on dress codes and finances and all this
00:43:32.200
other stuff. And you fit within some degree to that archetype as well. And then the third one is
00:43:37.080
going to be rakish. And these are the guys who primarily identify by being rebels and rule breakers
00:43:42.240
and iconoclasts. And they want to give the middle finger to everybody else around them. And each one of
00:43:48.300
those has very different aesthetics that comes with it. And what's interesting is I think based
00:43:54.140
on what you're saying and what I've seen in the conversations we've had, you can be rakish, for
00:43:58.480
example, in a suit just as easily as you could be rakish in a cutoff sleeveless shirt, for example.
00:44:05.320
Yeah. Go to a demolition derby wearing a three-piece suit and tell me that that's not giving the
00:44:09.760
aesthetic middle finger to everybody around you.
00:44:12.100
Right. And we even see that to your point earlier about Conor McGregor. I mean,
00:44:15.740
dressed to the nines to go fight. He's going to fight and maim and hurt somebody. And he dresses
00:44:22.000
like a king. It's pretty interesting. Exactly. Exactly.
00:44:26.240
Well, Tanner, we're bumping up against time, man. This has actually gone by really, really quick.
00:44:30.320
And I know we could get into so much more. I would just encourage the guys to go out and buy the book,
00:44:34.540
The Appearance of Power. Really good book, fairly quick read, and has a lot of great information about
00:44:40.200
what we've been talking about, including the six strategies that we didn't get to cover,
00:44:44.380
unfortunately. Tanner, I want to ask you a couple of questions. The first one is,
00:44:50.060
I love what you provided as far as the definition of provide, protect, and preside.
00:44:55.560
I think in order to be a man, you need to be somebody who's capable of being an agent that acts
00:45:01.580
as opposed to just being something passively waiting to be acted upon. A man is someone who does,
00:45:07.900
who becomes, rather than somebody who just responds or waits for things to happen to him.
00:45:14.580
Powerful. I love it, man. I love that definition. And I agree with that. How do we connect with you?
00:45:19.040
How do we pick up a copy of the book and just learn more?
00:45:21.140
So if you want to pick up a copy, you can go to appearanceofpower.com. It'll give you an
00:45:25.100
opportunity to go through there. You can also look it up on Amazon. As far as connecting with me,
00:45:29.620
that's a great place to do it. There's an opportunity to sign up for a newsletter where I give out
00:45:33.360
consistent information about how to apply these strategies and different tactical approaches or
00:45:37.680
how to think about this stuff differently. And then also social media would be Twitter,
00:45:42.680
YouTube, and Instagram, and all of those. It's just at Tanner Guzzi.
00:45:46.140
Right on. We will link that up. And then also, depending on when this show is being released,
00:45:50.180
guys, there's also Menfluential. And Tanner, I'm assuming you're going to be there. I will be there.
00:45:55.120
And it's in February. I'll get you guys the details so you have that, but you'll be able to connect with
00:45:59.040
us and so many other guys. So make sure you check that out as well. Tanner,
00:46:02.980
I've got to tell you, man, I appreciate our friendship, getting to know you,
00:46:06.520
the conversations we've had, and of course, all of your work. It has been instrumental in my life.
00:46:11.300
If we were to rewind, like I said, five years ago, there's no way in a million years I thought
00:46:15.520
that this would have the type of impact that it has on my level of confidence and my influence and
00:46:20.960
my income and my ability to show up more fully as a man. So I appreciate you for all that you've
00:46:25.300
provided to me, man. I love to hear that. I mean, honestly, Ryan, you are such a good example of
00:46:29.860
what it means to be a good man and a man who's good at being a man. And I love that. I've been
00:46:33.920
able to get to know you over the years and seen the success that you've built. And I expect so
00:46:38.280
much more from you. And it's fun to just be on this journey together, dude.
00:46:43.520
Gentlemen, Mr. Tanner Guzzi, like I said, I have learned so much from this man about what I wear
00:46:48.240
and how it will help me accomplish my objectives. And I know you will too. I would encourage you to
00:46:53.260
pick up a copy of Tanner's book. I have read the entire thing. It is a great book. It's called
00:46:56.840
the appearance of power. If you need the link, head to order of man.com slash one, four, three
00:47:01.800
to get that. And of course the rest of the notes from this show. Also, if you enjoyed the show,
00:47:05.980
please let us know, let me and Tanner know on Instagram and Twitter, Facebook, wherever you
00:47:11.240
are. And also tell us what your biggest takeaway was. In the meantime, we have our meetup slash book
00:47:17.420
launch party in Nashville, January 26th, 27th, 2018. You can get registered at order of man.com slash
00:47:24.320
Nashville. And make sure you take a look at the iron council. This is the brotherhood I mentioned
00:47:28.440
earlier. You're going to band with other men who were accomplishing and striving to accomplish
00:47:33.400
the same things that you are. You can do that at order of man.com slash iron council guys. I will
00:47:39.620
look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then take action
00:47:43.580
and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
00:47:50.120
you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:47:54.160
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.