Order of Man - 145： Retire Early ｜ Deacon Hayes

00:00:00.180 Finances is such a huge component of living your life to the fullest, but in my experience,

00:00:04.400 it's often one of the most overlooked. And this isn't because men don't believe it's not

00:00:08.140 important, but because it's often so complex and challenging to get your money to work for you.

00:00:14.040 One of the most commonly asked questions I get is what book would I recommend for personal

00:00:18.420 finances? And although there's a ton to choose from, there hasn't been one that I consistently

00:00:23.080 feel good about recommending. And that is until right now, my friend Deacon Hayes,

00:00:27.460 the author of You Can Retire Early, joins me to talk about developing a personal financial plan,

00:00:32.460 how to sift through all the financial noise, three investment vehicles to consider,

00:00:36.840 including a quick conversation on cryptocurrency and how you too can retire early.

00:00:42.220 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:46.640 chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you

00:00:52.500 are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is

00:00:59.000 who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:04.720 you can call yourself a man.

00:01:07.220 Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of

00:01:11.320 this podcast, The Order of Man. I am glad that you are joining us from wherever you are. Big things

00:01:17.140 going on for us and the mission of The Order. We are picking up steam with the podcast, and I want

00:01:22.440 to thank you for sharing and being part of what we're doing here. I've really been focused over

00:01:27.240 the past couple of weeks on our podcast guests for the first quarter of 2018, and I'm happy to tell

00:01:33.140 you that we've got some incredible, incredible guests lined up. I'm going to be announcing those

00:01:37.500 soon, but either way, make sure you subscribe if you have not yet done so. Outside of that, guys,

00:01:42.720 a couple of quick announcements before we get into the discussion today. Make sure that you hurry

00:01:46.660 and get registered for our book launch slash meetup party in Nashville, January 26th and

00:01:51.880 27th, 2018. We are filling up those spots, new registrants every single day, and I want

00:01:57.140 to make sure you get a ticket to that. This is also the book launch party for the book that's

00:02:01.080 going to be released in February, and you as an attendee of that event are going to get

00:02:05.360 a advanced signed copy. You can do that at orderofman.com slash Nashville. Outside of that,

00:02:11.800 you can join the conversation. We're having big conversations over on Facebook. 40,000 guys

00:02:16.640 now over there, and we're having conversations about health and business and money and finances

00:02:21.860 and you name it. We're having conversations about being a better man over there. And then

00:02:25.940 of course, our exclusive brotherhood. And I say exclusive because we've really narrowed

00:02:30.640 this down to a very select few men who really want to level up in their lives and take their

00:02:36.520 lives to the next level, especially heading into 2018 with new year's resolutions. We're going

00:02:41.120 to teach you a system that actually works in keeping those resolutions, those goals, those

00:02:45.720 objectives as we call them. I'm going to talk about it more during the break, but that's

00:02:49.360 the iron council. And you can join us at orderofman.com slash iron council. Now today, my guest is personal

00:02:56.660 finance blogger and author Deacon Hayes. I actually met Deacon years ago, years ago when I launched

00:03:03.000 my very first podcast that many of you probably don't even know about. We've since had the opportunity

00:03:09.000 to talk about blogging and podcasting, and of course money, which is something that we're

00:03:13.520 both passionate about. He's been featured in Yahoo finance, us news, investopedia, CNN money,

00:03:19.420 and many more. And has recently wrote a book called you can retire early. You're going to

00:03:24.600 hear in this conversation why Deacon is well qualified to talk about money and finances and

00:03:29.200 learn through his approach that the financial conversations and the planning that you need

00:03:34.220 to be doing really aren't as complex as many institutions and organizations would have you

00:03:39.780 believe. So guys, get the notepads out, get out your dusty old financial plans if you have one

00:03:44.800 and learn how you can retire early. Deacon, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:03:51.560 Hey, Ryan. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

00:03:53.560 I've been following you since the early days of my podcasting journey, which was a lot of guys think

00:03:58.700 it's two and a half years. It's not. It's more like three and a half years because I actually had a

00:04:02.380 financial advisory podcast, which is where I got familiar with your work about three,

00:04:06.700 four years ago. That's awesome. Yeah. I remember you had, I think it was Wealth Anatomy.

00:04:10.420 That's what it is. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm glad that we could connect on here. It's

00:04:14.640 been a long time coming. Yeah. And I think we met at FinCon if I remember correctly too. So

00:04:19.460 pretty cool to be having this conversation. Yeah. I love FinCon, man. I definitely think we

00:04:23.460 met there. It was that community has changed my life. So, and I'm sure just like the order of men 1.00

00:04:27.260 has changed a lot of these guys' lives. Well, I'm amazed at how open the financial advisory

00:04:32.000 community is when you're talking about doing this stuff online and writing books and podcasting

00:04:35.680 everything like that, because in the traditional financial advisory practice that I own, that I

00:04:40.040 still own, it's a little bit more guarded and I've noticed it's a lot more open with what you guys

00:04:44.680 are doing. So I appreciate that of you and the movement for sure. Yeah. And I think that's what

00:04:48.320 it's about. It's about transparency, right? It's like, we don't want to hide things, right? We want

00:04:51.920 to help people understand how they can get to where they want to be in life, right? So I think you're

00:04:56.640 right though. It's definitely transitioned over the years. Well, let's get into this conversation.

00:05:00.800 Retirement is kind of a, well, it's a buzzword and we hear it. And I think it has so many

00:05:04.680 definitions. I've heard guys say, you know, I retired when I was 20. That doesn't really,

00:05:09.240 to me, mean retirement. It just means they stepped away from their job and did something

00:05:12.260 that they wanted to do. So I think there's a lot of definitions of retirement. So help me

00:05:16.480 understand the context and the framework for the rest of the discussion today.

00:05:20.360 When I talk about retirement, what I'm talking about is being able to have the financial resources

00:05:24.600 to do what you want when you want to. The idea is, like you said, for these people that are in their 0.83

00:05:30.140 twenties, it's not that they're going to not work ever again. It's that they have the freedom

00:05:34.780 to choose when they work, who they work for. If they work for anybody, they could go serve in a

00:05:40.340 nonprofit status. They could go start a business. They can do woodworking. I mean, whatever they

00:05:43.920 want to do, it's being able to have the financial resources to do what you want when you want to do

00:05:48.560 it. When you say financial resources, are you talking about passive financial resources,

00:05:53.040 meaning the income is coming in to provide for your everyday expenses and some buffers there.

00:05:57.940 And then you're just free, like you said, to do what it is you want to do.

00:06:01.600 Yeah, exactly. So not having to work, you only work if you want to. And the funny thing is,

00:06:06.500 is a lot of the people that I've interviewed or talked to about early retirement,

00:06:09.840 they're not looking to not work. They just don't want to work doing what they were doing,

00:06:13.620 right? So, you know, even though they are retired and they have that passive income to

00:06:17.800 provide for them and their family, a lot of times they say, Hey, I want to do something

00:06:21.300 productive that adds value. So they end up doing something else and making even more money.

00:06:25.140 And I think that resonates with the guys that listen to this, because frankly,

00:06:27.680 they wouldn't be listening to the show if they didn't have some sort of ambition

00:06:30.540 for the way that they approach life. Very rarely have I met somebody who's like,

00:06:35.360 I don't want to work. I just want to sit around and eat Cheetos all day. Like they want to do

00:06:39.280 something of value and be meaningful in their lives.

00:06:42.840 I resonate with that as well. It's, you know, you kind of have these talents, these gifts,

00:06:46.520 these abilities that you want to use. You want to help serve others with them. And a lot of times

00:06:51.360 we get trapped in a situation that we create ultimately where we're like, ah, I hate this job,

00:06:56.260 or I hate this opportunity. I wish I was doing something else. And so this whole movement of

00:07:00.380 financial independence and early retirement is more towards, Hey, how do you unlock those

00:07:04.540 abilities to where you can actually focus your time doing what you love and make money in the

00:07:09.300 process? So tell me where you are in this process, because in reading the book, you are not quite

00:07:14.140 there if I understand that correctly, but you're on this path. So help me understand where you are

00:07:18.300 currently. It is kind of complex. So technically we could call ourselves early retired. The reason why I

00:07:25.120 don't is because I have a lot of like ambitious goals, you know, and there's things that I'd love

00:07:29.140 to do and provide for my family that we don't have right now, you know, as far as freedom and as far

00:07:34.140 as income coming in each month to do what we want, when we want, we have that. But there are other

00:07:38.760 things like we want to buy a cabin so that we can, you know, do that a couple of times a year with

00:07:42.920 our family and want to be able to go on international vacation. So there are these kind of like add on

00:07:47.180 things to our early retirement that we're not there yet.

00:07:50.660 So when you talk about the cabin and the vacations and the things like that,

00:07:53.520 this kind of alludes to the next question that I wanted to address. And you actually

00:07:56.980 cover this in depth, which is finding your why. Is that what you're talking about here? Because I

00:08:02.280 think when I hear that, I think it's such an overused word that it's lost a lot of its meaning

00:08:07.640 and significance. Yeah. You know, I watched that video from Simon Sinek about, you know, yeah.

00:08:13.640 And that changed my life because it really was, it was just understanding like what drives us to do what

00:08:18.520 we do. Why are we going to do this? You know, if you're going to retire early, what's your purpose?

00:08:23.200 Because the reality is if you don't have that, it's all for nothing. You know,

00:08:26.260 you're going to get there and you're going to be like, I'm bored out of my mind. Right?

00:08:29.100 So you have to say, okay, no, really, why would I want to do this? Well, I want to put my kids

00:08:32.960 through at least half of their college. We don't want to pay for their full college. We want to get

00:08:36.160 them halfway there. We believe in kind of that mutual responsibility. We want to be able to travel

00:08:41.080 the world and take our kids with us. We know we want to be able to give back in a major way.

00:08:45.400 You know, I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for other people pouring time, energy, resources,

00:08:49.580 money into my success. And so I wouldn't be able to do that for other people. So figuring out what

00:08:54.360 that why is for you is so important because when times get tough and they will get tough,

00:08:58.560 it's inevitable. You're going to stick through it. If you don't have that why you're going to

00:09:01.940 easily give up and you're going to be back at square one. How do you make a why a very tangible

00:09:06.860 thing for you? Because I think, for example, if you talk about traveling and want to be there for

00:09:11.400 your family and want to go to the games and want to have a great relationship and a life of

00:09:16.320 significance, those are very surface level things that I think everybody would probably agree to

00:09:21.940 that. But I'm not quite sure if it's deep enough to connect you when things are going poorly and

00:09:27.280 things are difficult. Yeah. So I'm looking at some pictures right now. So I have one. I was on a trip

00:09:33.540 in Morocco helping rebuild some homes after an earthquake. Another one where we're down in Mexico

00:09:38.160 with like literally some of my best friends that I still hang out with today. We were helping do some

00:09:42.620 work down there. And like my wife and some of my best friends and, you know, like having those

00:09:47.900 visual reminders of like, hey, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like I want to continue to

00:09:51.980 be working towards those opportunities and having those experiences and helping others. And so,

00:09:57.280 you know, put it on the fridge, put it in the visor of your car, put it on your desk, whatever

00:10:00.900 those whys are, whether it's pictures, whether it's written word, something that kind of keeps you

00:10:05.780 in the game, you know, without those reminders, you're right. It can be easy to kind of lose sight and

00:10:09.860 not really feel real. Has your why changed over time? I've certainly articulated more clearly and

00:10:17.240 even my priorities have changed. How has your why changed over time? Yeah. I mean, I think originally

00:10:22.040 it was more vain, right? It really was kind of about success, money, those kinds of things. And so

00:10:27.080 as I kind of progress in the journey and realize it's not about me, right? Like it is about my family,

00:10:32.800 my kids, my friends, other people that, you know, I've got a buddy who started a personal finance

00:10:38.760 website and he made 10 grand last month for the first time, helping him get from zero to 10 grand

00:10:44.120 a month, you know, like things like that get me just fired up because I'm like, I'm helping people

00:10:49.320 transform their lives. You know, the money doesn't even matter anymore. It's just a byproduct of doing

00:10:54.140 the right things. Right. And so that's kind of a huge shift for me is it's not the success. It's not

00:10:59.220 the money. It's how can I serve others with my gifts, talents, and abilities. And that shift has been

00:11:03.280 huge. How did you get into this? I think it's very easy for a lot of people to look from the

00:11:07.680 outside in and think, Oh, Deacon's always been good with his money. He probably learned growing

00:11:12.000 up or he just has an organized personality or maybe even an obsessive personality.

00:11:15.960 But I'd love to hear how you actually got into this. And then of course, started teaching it to

00:11:21.400 other people. I wish I had that upbringing where like I learned about money, but I didn't. And you

00:11:25.960 know what? I think that actually probably made my passion stronger. Both my parents got divorced and

00:11:30.900 they both did not know how to handle money at all. So they both had their houses foreclosed on,

00:11:35.620 both filed bankruptcy, both separately. So growing up, I didn't really know anything good

00:11:40.400 about money. In fact, when my wife and I got married, we had $52,000 in debt outside of mortgage

00:11:45.400 debt. And for us, that was a lot. We had a car payment, we had credit card debt, we had student

00:11:50.560 loan debt. And we're like, Oh my gosh, we're starting out life in the negative. And this is this is

00:11:55.360 normal now, right? I mean, that just seems so weird to us.

00:11:58.000 Probably higher, which is sad.

00:12:00.380 Right. Yeah. Because if you were to combine two car payments and then, you know,

00:12:03.500 school and everything else. Yeah, absolutely.

00:12:05.440 Yeah. Yeah. So we're like, okay, we got to figure this out. So at the time I was selling wood flooring,

00:12:10.620 it wasn't very, it wasn't exciting. You know, it was a decent paying job, but it wasn't something

00:12:15.240 that I was passionate about. And we decided, okay, I'm going to research people that are successful

00:12:19.120 with money, like Dave Ramsey, Ron Blue, Jim Cramer, Warren Buffett, all these different guys,

00:12:23.800 read all these books. And then we're going to execute, we're going to make a plan. And I'm a big fan of

00:12:27.860 smart goals. So we set an 18 month goal and said, Hey, okay, let's pay off this 52 grand in 18 months

00:12:33.080 using these strategies. And when, you know, we did it. And that was that aha moment of like,

00:12:38.400 how can I help other people do this? Right. Set out a goal, map out a plan to achieve it

00:12:43.360 and change their life forever. You know? And so that's kind of how it all got started.

00:12:46.940 How do you sift through the noise? Because we've got you, we've got your book,

00:12:50.340 we've got thousands of other bloggers and podcasters. We've got, you know, Jim Cramer,

00:12:53.920 Dave Ramsey, like you mentioned. And sometimes I think there's a lot of great information out there.

00:12:58.620 And frankly, there's a lot of poor information out there. How does one begin to sift through the

00:13:03.160 noise and figure out what's going to work well for them and their plan specifically?

00:13:07.360 Yeah, that's a really good point. So I'll say I took a lot more from Dave Ramsey than I did Jim

00:13:11.340 Cramer. I'm not a, I'm not, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. I'm not a single stock guy, but I wanted to

00:13:16.760 have the balance, right? Like I want to be knowledgeable. And so it really is kind of having that filter of

00:13:22.200 like, don't just take one source, right? Like kind of compare the sources and say, Hey, you know what,

00:13:26.920 what Jim's talking about is a little bit riskier than what Dave's talking about, right? Having the

00:13:31.240 discernment to know that, you know, cause I used to be a financial planner like you and you get people

00:13:36.300 that can take an advantage of easily because they have someone that comes to them with this great

00:13:39.620 opportunity and it's a limited time offer and they got to do it now. And then they get taken,

00:13:43.540 you know, and you got, you got to just step back and say, Whoa, put the red flags up. I got to take a

00:13:47.700 breather. Let me compare this against what else is going on. Oh, you know what? Index investing is a

00:13:52.000 lot safer. It's a lot more proven and it's a lot more, you know, hands off. I'm going to probably

00:13:56.900 pick that over this, you know, oil opportunity in Arabia, you know? Well, I think there's a lot

00:14:02.480 to be said for instincts too, and your gut feeling. And I think when it comes to money, a lot of times

00:14:07.100 people ignore that because they get excited and their emotions get in the way, right? I'm greedy

00:14:11.240 or I'm fearful. And so they make these decisions outside of what their instinct in their gut is

00:14:16.400 actually telling them, which is probably the prudent advice they should be following.

00:14:20.360 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the truth. And I think sometimes we discard that and, you know,

00:14:25.540 we say, well, you know what, this is a limited time opportunity. So therefore I'm going to go

00:14:29.400 away with my instincts and I'm going to just go for it. I'm going to roll the dice. And yeah,

00:14:33.100 I think we got to step back and say, Whoa, why do I have that check in my gut? Probably because this

00:14:37.180 is too good to be true. Let's take that 24 hour rule and let's sleep on it and then not make a decision

00:14:42.200 right away. So this is one of the pitfalls, just going by your emotions, for example,

00:14:46.320 making rash decisions, especially when you think the offer is probably too good to be true.

00:14:50.800 What are some other pitfalls people are falling into when it comes to building wealth,

00:14:56.100 securing their retirement?

00:14:57.820 I think really it's kind of the keeping up with the Joneses, right? I think that a lot of people,

00:15:02.060 they see their friends getting the brand new cars, the brand new trucks, the nice house,

00:15:06.980 you know, all those things. And I just think to myself, like, gosh, it takes a lot of time to build

00:15:12.460 up the wealth to have those things, right? You can't just have them when you get your first job.

00:15:16.220 And it really is kind of saying, okay, what do I really want out of life? And going back to that,

00:15:20.000 why, right? If putting your kids through college is more important than owning a Lexus or a Mercedes

00:15:25.820 or a lifted truck, then you got to say, I don't want the car payment. I'm going to put that money

00:15:30.460 instead in my kid's college, right? You need to have a plan. And then you need to go back to when

00:15:35.120 you're making those decisions. Okay. I can't afford a $600 a month car payment because I'm putting

00:15:39.260 200 bucks a month in each one of my kids' college funds, right? So really, I think people don't sit

00:15:44.200 down to do that. And so that's a huge pitfall because then kids want to go to college and like,

00:15:48.520 sorry, buddy, we haven't saved for you. Well, you know, if you start when they're born,

00:15:52.720 you're going to have tens of thousands, you know, if not a hundred thousand dollars for them to go to

00:15:56.160 college, starting with as little as 50 bucks a month or, you know, something like that. So I think

00:16:00.500 the reality is, is just really having that why and then developing the plan to make sure that

00:16:05.140 you actually achieve the goals that you want to achieve.

00:16:07.280 I think this is a really good point because I'm somebody who prides myself on being

00:16:11.300 practical. For example, I drive a 99 Toyota Tacoma and outside of that, I have a 76 International

00:16:17.920 Scout. Those are my two vehicles. And even for somebody like myself who prides himself on being

00:16:23.880 practical and making prudent decisions. And of course, I've been in the financial planning

00:16:27.220 industry for a decade. I still get tempted when I see the guy with the new truck drive by and I'm

00:16:33.060 like, man, I really want that. But then I think I'm like, do I want that? Like, is that really

00:16:37.040 that important to me? And the answer more often than not is no, I'd rather go on the vacation with

00:16:42.140 my family, or I'd rather put that money aside, or I'd rather spend it here than there. And so I can

00:16:47.460 see why having an alternative or what you really want is a benchmark to measure your purchasing

00:16:52.560 decisions against. All right. I want people to envision this. Envision like you drive the new

00:16:57.700 car off the lot. You've got a suitcase of cash of like $6,000 in your front seat. And as soon as you're

00:17:03.460 driving away from the car dealership, just start grabbing handfuls of cash and throw it out the

00:17:08.100 window, like all the way home, right? Because literally, that's what we did. When I first got

00:17:12.680 married, my boss said, you need to have a reliable car. He put an ad on my desk and said, you could 0.99

00:17:17.200 afford this. And I did that. I went and bought that exact car. And I literally lost $6,000 within

00:17:22.560 the first year. And I was like, I can't afford to lose $6,000. I'm in my mid-20s, right? Like $6,000 is a lot

00:17:28.200 of money. So really, I want people to envision that because that's what's happening, right? I would

00:17:31.840 rather invest that, like you said, in my kid's college, in vacations, in retirement, whatever it

00:17:37.800 might be, instead of throwing it away. You're talking a lot about a personalized plan,

00:17:42.020 individualized plan. You're a financial advisor. I'm a financial advisor. Where does this come into

00:17:46.960 play? Because I don't believe that everybody even needs a financial advisor. And I'd like to hear your

00:17:51.560 thoughts on that and the distinction of when maybe you should and when you should not.

00:17:55.220 Yeah. So just a quick clarification. So I'm not a financial advisor anymore. I used to be.

00:17:59.460 Oh, okay. I misunderstood. All right.

00:18:00.700 No, and that's okay. But I like to say that because I kind of realized, like, I want to be

00:18:04.080 just the average guy. Like, I have maybe a different level of knowledge, but I can definitely

00:18:07.940 relate to the average person when it comes to creating a plan and putting all that stuff

00:18:11.120 together. Well, and you've got a different perspective that the quote-unquote average guy

00:18:15.000 does not have being in the industry. Right, right. So I say it's important for everybody,

00:18:19.480 but the level of detail is up to you, right? So some people can get by with just saying,

00:18:24.540 hey, let's just have a basic budget sheet that says income outgo, and this is what's

00:18:28.420 left over. And then the leftover just goes in these different buckets that we want to achieve,

00:18:32.020 right? As simple as that. Other people have like a hundred page deal. I'm a very simple guy. So

00:18:36.880 literally I do have what I call a financial game plan. It's a one page form that basically has all

00:18:41.800 of our stuff on one piece of paper and just making it very simple. If it's simple, it's easier to

00:18:47.020 actually follow through. If it's complicated, the less likely you are to actually succeed with it.

00:18:50.920 So for me, I think everybody should have one. Sit down. If you have a spouse, sit down with them

00:18:55.920 and dream a little, right? It's okay to dream. Say, would you like to have that cabin? Would you

00:19:00.380 like to go on these vacations? How much is that stuff going to cost? How much is it going to cost

00:19:04.720 put your kids through college or half a college? And then figure out on paper, what do you need to

00:19:09.580 be doing every month to get there? It sounds complex, but really when you look at it, each goal is just

00:19:15.960 one number. The cabin is X, college is X, traveling is X. And then you just say, I just need a certain

00:19:22.280 amount of money each month to get there. That's it. It's that simple.

00:19:25.860 And I imagine too, it has to do with your capability, right? And you've got to be real

00:19:29.180 with yourself too. Are you actually going to do it? If the answer is yes, and you've proven

00:19:33.700 that you are going to sit down and put together this one page plan or however elaborate you want it to

00:19:38.360 be, then there may be a case for you doing it on your own. But if you're not going to do that,

00:19:43.140 and you're truthful about it, don't hide that fact and maybe bring in some outside help and

00:19:47.480 support to get you to where you want to be. You're right. And there's some people that are

00:19:51.380 literally, they're good with Excel. They're good with being consistent and accountable and that

00:19:55.980 kind of thing. And if not, I mean, definitely seek outside help, whether it's a CPA, a financial

00:20:00.380 planner, whatever it might be for whatever your situation is, but someone that's more knowledgeable

00:20:04.140 to you that can basically kind of guide you through those steps because I know that I don't know

00:20:08.400 everything. So even I have a CPA, I don't do my own taxes, right? I go and I seek

00:20:13.120 help from people that know more than me. And so I definitely encourage people to do that if that

00:20:17.580 makes sense for them. We're obviously talking about money and financial planning today. And

00:20:23.480 one of the most critical parts of any financial plan is your life insurance. Should you leave

00:20:27.960 this earth sooner than you or your family would have anticipated, but just because you buy insurance

00:20:33.860 doesn't mean you need to pay too much for it. And this is where our sponsor health IQ comes in.

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00:21:19.640 guys. I can't even begin to describe how powerful having a track to run on can be. I know it's easy

00:21:26.520 to think that we can go at it alone and figure everything out without the help of others. And it may

00:21:31.340 actually work for a little while, but if you're looking for something new out of life, finding

00:21:36.420 that track to run on and a system, a system that's been proven to work is critical. And this is where

00:21:42.180 the iron council comes in. This is our exclusive brotherhood where we give you the track to run on

00:21:47.060 and show you the tools and the systems that hundreds of men have used to build more wealth in their

00:21:52.000 lives, enhance the relationships, improve their health, so many areas of their life. But that said,

00:21:57.100 just because you will have a system through the iron council, don't think that we're going to do it

00:22:01.060 all for you. We're simply giving you the tools and armed with those tools. We're going to be

00:22:06.300 teaching you how to take charge of your own life so that you can see the results that you want to

00:22:10.680 see. If you're interested in joining with 330 other men who are on the same track as you head to

00:22:16.460 order of man.com slash iron council to learn more and to lock in your seat at the table. Again,

00:22:21.580 that's order of man.com slash iron council. Now with that said, let's head back to the conversation

00:22:27.400 with Deacon. I want to go back to your previous debt situation because you said $52,000 in 18 months,

00:22:35.480 which is a tall order and pretty awesome that you were able to complete that. And I know you talk a

00:22:40.280 lot about debt and overcoming debt and how to pay it off in the book. How did you do that specifically?

00:22:45.280 Because there are guys out there that have less equal to, or even more debt than that, that would

00:22:49.600 love to be out from underneath that. A couple of things. First, we put together this game plan,

00:22:54.280 right? And so one of the things that I wanted to know was, okay, what are my debts and what are my

00:22:58.740 assets? You know, one of my debts was that brand new car I was talking about. And it was also an

00:23:03.560 asset, right? Because it had some equity in it or not. It didn't have any equity, but it was valuable,

00:23:07.900 right? Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, okay, that's about a $400 a month payment. If I could get out from

00:23:13.720 underneath that, I could take that 400 bucks and I can apply it towards our credit card debt, right?

00:23:18.280 So here I had this car that was upside down. I think it was about a thousand bucks because we had been

00:23:22.440 paying a little bit extra on it. And so I'm like, okay, let me figure out how to sell this upside

00:23:26.600 down car. So we have an extra $400 of breathing room per month. And so we sold a bunch of stuff

00:23:31.600 online on eBay, Craigslist to come up with that thousand bucks and sold that car. And in the same

00:23:36.400 process, my wife had a car that was worth five grand. So it was paid for. So we're like, okay,

00:23:40.620 let's buy two beater cars for five grand total with a little bit of wiggle room. So I think we paid

00:23:45.500 like 42, 50 or something. So we had some extra money left over to repair them because they're older cars.

00:23:50.420 And so that's what we did. It took a few months to get that process rolling, you know, between

00:23:54.860 selling two cars and buying a new car, actually buying two new cars, two new used cars. And so

00:24:00.560 that was a big deal. And that really put wind in our sails. At the same time, I got a job delivering

00:24:05.260 pizzas at night. So here I am working full time, 40, 50 hours a week. And then afterwards at nighttime,

00:24:10.620 I would go deliver pizzas. So I was doing that. I was also doing garage sale arbitrage. So I'd go to

00:24:15.720 garage sales, I'd scan stuff with my phone and I'd say, okay, this is selling for X,

00:24:20.420 it's on Amazon for 50 bucks. They're asking five bucks for it at the yard sale. So I bought it for

00:24:24.360 five, sold it for 50. I would do pretty much anything I could to come up with extra cash.

00:24:29.320 So it was kind of going above and beyond the norm, right? Like the norm is what got us in our debt.

00:24:34.460 And so for us to get out of it, it took us doing things, you know, that kind of put us outside of

00:24:38.080 our comfort zone. Well, definitely. And there's definitely an extreme measure to this, but I think

00:24:42.700 that's what it takes to alter the trajectory that you're currently on. This is almost like a physics

00:24:47.800 lesson. Like in order for you to change directions, there has to be a greater force against the

00:24:52.040 direction that you're going right now. Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think for us,

00:24:56.440 you know, once we had that solid why, like, okay, we don't want to end up kind of like our parents,

00:25:01.240 right? Where they just didn't handle their finances well. And so that built up some strength and then,

00:25:05.760 hey, you know what? We don't want to wait 10 years to pay off our student loans or 20 years,

00:25:10.000 right? We don't want to have car payments forever. So like all of that stuff kind of built up the

00:25:13.880 force to say, okay, let's start moving in a different direction so that we can accomplish

00:25:18.340 this in a short period of time. And I love that you're being creative about how to not only pay

00:25:22.680 the debt down, but then also to increase revenue. Because I think there's a lot to be said for

00:25:26.800 developing and articulating the creative muscle when it comes to building more wealth in your life.

00:25:32.520 Because I think a lot of people just think, well, I'll cut back spending and I won't live a better

00:25:36.640 life. And while there's validity to that, that's not the ultimate goal is to shoestring your entire

00:25:42.540 budget for the rest of your life. I'd rather live in a position of abundance, knowing that

00:25:46.200 the $5 purchase isn't really going to make that big a difference in the grand scheme of things.

00:25:50.420 But that can only happen if I've got the increasing income to support those types of

00:25:56.060 small decisions and purchases. And that was one of the things, we were going to hunker down for that

00:26:01.160 18 months, right? And then after that 18 months, my wife had a friend that lived in Singapore.

00:26:06.180 And so we're like, okay, we're going to save up money after we pay off our debt so that we can go pay

00:26:11.440 cash for a trip to Singapore, Hong Kong, and Indonesia. And so we were able to do that.

00:26:16.820 That was one of those things where it's like, yeah, we're not looking to live on a shoestring

00:26:19.980 budget the rest of our lives. We're looking to set ourselves up so that we have choices,

00:26:23.540 so that we have freedom, so we could do things that we wouldn't normally be able to do.

00:26:27.880 I love it. Yeah. One of the scenarios that we just went through personally,

00:26:31.260 and as of the release of this podcast, we're actually probably in Hawaii right now.

00:26:37.380 And my wife and I, as we were planning this trip, we're looking at places to stay. And there was

00:26:41.860 some hotels and there was some Airbnb type things that we were going to stay at around the price

00:26:46.220 that we were looking for. And then there was this really cool bamboo house that we wanted to rent,

00:26:51.420 but it was about 40 or 50% more than what we wanted to pay. But we looked through the budget

00:26:57.260 and we realized, man, this is a great opportunity. We had the money to do it and the resources,

00:27:01.800 and we just made it happen because we had that flexibility. And like you said, the option

00:27:05.760 to be able to do that should we want to. That's the type of abundance that I want to live in.

00:27:10.400 Yeah. And I'm with you, man. I mean, I think that's the thing is,

00:27:12.820 it is kind of value. Like, what do you value? And if you say, okay, this is a once in a lifetime

00:27:17.700 experience with my family, and this is important to us, and we're really good when it comes to other

00:27:22.800 things, and we have the money to do this, then go for it. But I think that making sure people know

00:27:27.840 what that value is, right? Like some people think it's like getting the new rims on the truck or the lift

00:27:32.200 or whatever, and they don't have the money, right? So making sure that you set yourself up for

00:27:36.260 financial success first before making those types of choices.

00:27:39.740 Well, and one of the things that you talk a lot about as well is this myth that the more that you

00:27:44.280 have, the more stuff that you have, that somehow you'll be happy. I found the exact opposite to be

00:27:49.120 true for me.

00:27:50.080 Yeah, me too. I love that movie. I think it's called like Becoming Minimalist or something like that on

00:27:54.860 Netflix. And it's a little extreme, but I think they had this less is more mentality,

00:27:59.440 right? Like the less stuff you have, the less you have to manage, the less stuff you have to

00:28:03.500 clean, you know, worry about. I mean, and so it is, it's one of those things of like,

00:28:07.700 just really focusing that on what does matter. What matters is relationships. What matters is

00:28:11.960 family. What matters is serving others and having purpose, you know? And so those things like far

00:28:17.380 trump having a bunch of stuff for me.

00:28:19.400 There's so much that we could talk about. I'm having a hard time figuring out what we should actually

00:28:23.500 address because you do go so into depth in this book and cover so much. I want to talk with you

00:28:28.460 about the different investment options. Generally speaking, I know there's probably an infinite

00:28:33.240 number of things we can invest in, but you break it down to the top three investment categories.

00:28:38.500 Can you break those down for us?

00:28:40.260 The top three are going to be real estate, stock market, and business. I actually do all three.

00:28:45.480 You know, I'm a big fan of diversification and not just saying, Hey, I'm just going to do one and be

00:28:48.500 really good at it. And it sounds a little bit counterintuitive because I am all about focus,

00:28:51.980 but I think that having your hand in these different pots. So when it comes to real estate,

00:28:56.020 really just talking about, okay, how could I own real estate? And I'm a risk averse guy.

00:29:00.080 So with the least amount of debt possible, so figuring out how to have enough of a down payment.

00:29:04.520 And so we'll just run through a quick scenario of, okay, if you could get four rental properties

00:29:08.760 and net a thousand dollars a month, that gets you 48 grand a year, right? So then you say,

00:29:13.000 how do I get my first one? Then how do I get my second one? Then I get my third one. How do I

00:29:16.040 get my fourth one? And then how do I pay them all off? The other scenario is the stock market,

00:29:19.300 the Warren Buffett way, if you will, or John Bogle, where it's, Hey, you know what? I'm going to

00:29:23.760 invest my money into companies that are doing well. I'm a big fan of index investing, which is

00:29:28.320 basically, I think of the S and P 500 is the 500 largest companies in America. There's an index

00:29:33.340 that you can just buy into that. And you own a piece of 500 companies, right? You just set it

00:29:37.280 and forget it. And so that's another way. And the other one, which is my favorite and probably yours

00:29:41.220 too, Ryan is business is being able to say, Hey, I'm going to use my gifts, talents, and abilities to

00:29:45.100 help other people and make money in the process. And then figuring out how to delegate the tasks that

00:29:50.280 someone else can do. And then you can focus on the things that you're really good at.

00:29:53.820 And so those are the three paths towards early retirement and kind of investing your resources.

00:29:58.760 Let's talk about the elephant in the room also. And this is something that's been talked about so

00:30:03.520 much, and that is cryptocurrency. You know, as of the time that we're recording this,

00:30:07.620 Bitcoin is at almost $13,000. Where do you see this fitting in? And is this a viable

00:30:12.920 consideration for our financial plan?

00:30:15.460 Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say if you ever wanted to speculate on something like

00:30:20.460 Bitcoin, no more than 10% of your investments, but myself, I'm 0%. I think that there's definitely,

00:30:27.620 I mean, the Winklevoss twins or Winklevi as a billion dollar cryptocurrency guys.

00:30:33.440 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously they made a ton of money, right? I think that it is speculative.

00:30:37.760 It's not something that's proven, right? Like you can look at the stock market,

00:30:40.600 you can look at real estate, you can look at business models, and you can look for a hundred,

00:30:44.060 if not 200 years and say, okay, this has had this type of return, you know, if you do it this way,

00:30:50.620 where Bitcoin doesn't have that track record. So I think really looking at the investment

00:30:53.940 opportunities that come your way and say, you know, what's the track record? How likely is it

00:30:57.760 to happen? If someone's considering it, I would do 10% or less of your investable assets.

00:31:02.780 I personally have money in Bitcoin, which is significantly less than 10% of my investable

00:31:07.580 assets. I do look at it as speculation. It is not investing. If somebody says to me,

00:31:12.200 am I investing in cryptocurrency? The answer is no, but I am speculating in cryptocurrency because

00:31:16.700 it's kind of fun, quite honestly, but I don't look at it as a viable, at this point,

00:31:21.080 a viable option within my financial strategy. Yeah. And I think that's a healthy way to view it,

00:31:25.380 right? My fear is though, is that someone will say, Hey, you don't want to take my life savings

00:31:29.420 and invest it because I can double it. Right. And I'm like, no, don't do that. Right.

00:31:32.960 But I think your view of like, okay, it's less than 10%. It's speculation. I'm not relying on this

00:31:37.860 money to retire or provide for my family. That's a more healthy view to have.

00:31:42.200 One of the things that you talk a lot about as well is an environment that actually helps you

00:31:46.580 achieve what it is you want to achieve. And we all know the adage, you are the average of the

00:31:51.160 five people that you spend the most time with and show me your five closest friends and I'll show you

00:31:55.400 the six, those kinds of things. But there's so much value in setting up an environment to succeed.

00:32:01.720 How do you do this when it comes to your financial plan?

00:32:03.960 I mean, the first thing that people can do is obviously get your spouse on the same page.

00:32:08.360 So sitting down with them and not telling them or dictating them, this is what you're going to do.

00:32:12.780 You got to do it together and say, dream together, you know, that type of thing.

00:32:16.180 If you don't have a spouse, you know, find somebody that's good with money that, you know, 0.92

00:32:18.840 a friend or family member that you can be accountable to. Right. And just kind of saying,

00:32:22.800 Hey, this is what I want to do. And I'd love for you to, you know, we have a phone call once a month

00:32:27.000 or every couple of weeks, just kind of go over it. Really surround yourself with people that are going in the

00:32:32.180 same direction. You know, when it comes to that, the other thing I have a math before we move on

00:32:35.820 to the next one, of course, I want to ask you how often you meet with your wife specifically to talk

00:32:40.760 money. We specifically do about once a month now, but we will, when it comes to purchases that maybe

00:32:47.700 are outside of our budget, you know, it could be like Christmas and things like that. We might like

00:32:52.000 weekly talk about specific things, right? We kind of have a threshold of 300 bucks. Like if it's over

00:32:57.340 300 bucks, we're going to sit down, we're going to talk about it. If it's within our categories,

00:33:00.860 we don't worry about it. So really, you know, that once a month minimum early on though,

00:33:05.400 like, so for people that are listening, never done this before, we're doing it weekly.

00:33:08.260 Right. And that's exactly what we were doing. And we still do weekly, but our meetings are

00:33:11.940 significantly shorter because we know we're all on the same page. We have the same vision

00:33:17.000 and there just might be some extraordinary type expenses or income or whatever that might be coming

00:33:22.080 up based on the time of year. And I think that's smart, you know, and I think we're going to start

00:33:26.200 transitioning back to that. We just had our second kid. So we have two kids under three,

00:33:30.440 congrats by the way. Thanks man. So life's been hectic,

00:33:33.420 but obviously I'm not about excuses. I'm about saying, okay, let's get back to a more steady

00:33:37.840 routine and something that's going to keep us even better on track, you know? So the more we meet,

00:33:42.320 the better we are with our finances as simple as that. So I interrupted you. Keep going. You talked

00:33:46.680 about making sure that you've got some sort of accountability partner, whether that's a spouse

00:33:50.160 or a friend or whoever it may be. What's next? A mastermind. You know, I have people that are kind

00:33:55.880 of in a similar place in life as me that have businesses that are similar to mine. And we talk

00:34:00.720 about like, where do we want to go? How are we going to get there? What are we going to work on

00:34:04.080 right now this week? We meet weekly. What are we going to work on right now this week? That's going

00:34:08.980 to push the needle forward. Right? So that's been helpful for me, not only in the financial space,

00:34:13.820 but in the business space. And even if you don't own a business, right? Like you could still do that.

00:34:18.240 You could say, okay, here are some goals that I have for me and my family and meeting with guys on a

00:34:22.880 regular basis just to make sure that you're on track. And that's been huge for us.

00:34:27.080 Yeah, that's definitely powerful. I know having people in my corner that I can have conversations

00:34:31.280 with. And of course, just the resource of having those people available has been powerful for me.

00:34:36.220 You know, one of the questions that I get a lot with in my financial planning practice and just

00:34:40.480 people in general is the concern that people have that they'll take one step forward and then two

00:34:46.780 steps back. You know, they start saving money, for example, and then their kid breaks their arm and

00:34:50.260 they have to spend all that money to cover the medical bills. How do you suggest people deal

00:34:54.720 with the setbacks that come up and just the trials to building your wealth?

00:34:59.960 One of the first things is having an emergency fund. So having three to six months of emergency

00:35:03.940 money. So literally if you made, let's say $2,000 in expenses per month, that you need to have at

00:35:09.020 least six to 12 grand sitting in a bank account. That was life-changing for us because when we first did

00:35:13.420 that, we had never had that much money in a bank account, right? We always live kind of paycheck to

00:35:17.100 paycheck. And then when stuff happened, like our AC unit went out, we got four grand in the bank.

00:35:22.600 We just take it out and pay for it. You know, like we weren't used to that, but it took us a long time

00:35:26.880 to build that up. Right. The cool thing is, is like, once you get that momentum built, right? Like you

00:35:31.400 hammer the debt and then you move on to making that three to six month emergency fund, it just becomes

00:35:36.020 kind of second nature. So right now I'm sure some people are listening to like, oh my gosh, that's a lot

00:35:39.980 of money. Right. But you just start at step one, which is make the plan. Step two, start executing on the plan.

00:35:46.300 Step three, start fine tuning and tweaking where the errors are, you know, and making it better and

00:35:50.980 then keep executing until you get rid of the debt and then focus on the emergency fund. So really that

00:35:55.400 emergency fund is the best way to have this buffer between you and all of those unknowns.

00:36:00.520 Yeah. And you know, guys listening to this and I've certainly fallen into this category where it

00:36:04.300 just becomes at some point a little overwhelming thinking about, oh, I've got to have the emergency fund

00:36:08.900 and I've got to be contributing to my 401k and I've got to be doing this and I've got to be at this

00:36:12.960 level and I've got to be X times my income at this certain age. And there's all kinds of little formulas

00:36:17.680 and calculations that are crafted. But I think at the end of the day, it's just about creating the habits

00:36:22.240 of discipline that will set you up and put you in the right position. If all you can save, for example,

00:36:26.600 is 25 bucks a month and that's what's going toward your emergency fund. Great. The habit is being developed.

00:36:31.660 You can increase contributions from there, but develop those powerful habits that are going to set you up

00:36:36.500 right. Yeah. And you know, I actually read a book called The Power of Habits by Charles Duhigg.

00:36:40.880 Yeah. That was amazing. Have you read that one? I have. It's a great book.

00:36:44.700 Yeah. So I definitely echo that. I mean, creating those habits and understanding,

00:36:48.240 it just starts with that one decision today, right? Sure. And the other side of it too,

00:36:52.260 is I think when you start implementing these habits and you see the results from the habits that

00:36:57.200 you've implemented, it starts to become a game. So for example, you might have $48,000 set aside and

00:37:03.980 you're like, how can I hit 50? And you do everything that you can. Maybe you sell a few

00:37:07.440 things or you increase contributions, you do whatever you can to hit 50. And then you see

00:37:11.740 that and you're like, cool, how can I hit 55? And so having those habits and then of course,

00:37:16.200 turning this into a game, I think is also very helpful. Yeah. That's another good point. So

00:37:20.960 really I have a spreadsheet for everything, you know, and I don't think people need to go this crazy,

00:37:24.940 but just tracking your progress was huge. We actually had it on our fridge. So we started at 52,000

00:37:30.300 in an Excel spreadsheet and say like, forget if it was January or whatever. And then the next

00:37:33.880 month we're at like 51,000, right? The next month we're at like 48,000, you know, and then we sell

00:37:38.740 the car at like 30,000. We're like, oh my gosh, how can we get this going faster? So really, yeah,

00:37:43.020 that tracking and having like whatever works for you, you know, if it's visual, if it's being able

00:37:47.720 to have those meetings with your wife, just making sure that you start doing those today.

00:37:51.240 So you use a spreadsheet. Is there other software that you'd recommend? Now there's a lot of programs.

00:37:55.880 Mint is one of them and you actually walked through some suggestions in the book. What would you

00:37:59.660 recommend as far as financial software guys can look into? I love personal capital. Basically,

00:38:05.260 it will allow you to do a couple of things. So it would let you do the budgeting side,

00:38:08.200 but it also will let you do an analysis from your investing side. So it's a little bit deeper than

00:38:12.460 Mint, but Mint is great for like husband and wife team where they're not that tech savvy and they want 0.65

00:38:17.980 something where it's like, I just want to know how much I have left in my budget for food or whatever.

00:38:21.520 Mint's great as well. Right on. Well, hey, Deacon, you're speaking my language right here. I could

00:38:25.520 probably lose track of time and let this go forever. I'm not going to do that for the sake of the

00:38:29.120 guys listening are like, oh, these geeks talking about finances and money. But guys, here's the

00:38:33.560 deal. If you want to learn more about it, just go out and buy the book. It's a very, very good book.

00:38:39.060 A lot of great information in here. And one of the questions I get all the time is what books,

00:38:43.740 what resources are available for building wealth, financial planning, paying off debt. This is

00:38:49.300 genuinely a very, very good resource. Deacon, I want to ask you a couple of questions as we wind down.

00:38:54.620 And the first one is what does it mean to be a man?

00:38:58.080 What I'd say is being able to protect, to provide. I mean, as far as when I look at my family and

00:39:04.320 thinking about like the influence that I have right on my kids, on my wife and those around me,

00:39:10.040 those are huge for me. And then to serve with, you know, my gifts, talents and abilities, you know,

00:39:14.240 other people in society. And so those would be the three things that I'd say being a man is.

00:39:18.420 Well, that ties in exactly with what I believe it is to protect, provide, preside, which is another

00:39:23.240 way to say leadership. So I think you and I are on very similar beliefs with regards to that. And

00:39:27.700 of course, money too, it sounds like. So we're on similar paths, man.

00:39:30.780 Yeah, absolutely, man. And I definitely am a big fan of what you're building here and your community.

00:39:34.880 And this is great.

00:39:36.780 Right on. How do we connect with you, find the blog, pick up the book,

00:39:39.460 just learn more about what you're up to?

00:39:41.060 If people want to find me, I'm at wellkeptwallet.com. We actually have a promotion right now. If you go to

00:39:45.800 wellkeptwallet.com slash retire, you get my course debt-free in 18 months for free.

00:39:50.800 So literally I designed it to help people get out of debt in a short period of time. So I just walk

00:39:54.240 them through like smart goals and how to achieve these goals in a short period of time. That'd be

00:39:57.980 the best place, wellkeptwallet.com slash retire.

00:40:00.280 Right on. We'll link that up so the guys know exactly where to go. Deacon, I appreciate you,

00:40:03.780 man. Of course, appreciate the way that you show up. Pretty cool to be able to have this conversation

00:40:07.600 four or five years after we met at FinCon. And of course, following you for a long time,

00:40:11.700 I appreciate the work that you do. And this money component is such a critical

00:40:15.780 and often overlooked component of us being able to step into our role fully as men. So I appreciate

00:40:22.040 the work that you're doing. Yeah. Thanks so much, Ryan. I appreciate it. And thanks for having me on

00:40:25.620 the show. Gentlemen, there it is. If you want more information on this show, including a link to the

00:40:32.140 book, and I highly, highly recommend the book, somewhat of a quick read, very informative. And I

00:40:37.700 know it's going to provide a lot of value in your life as you're trying to build more wealth in it.

00:40:41.920 Uh, you can go to order of man.com slash one four five show notes are over there. Quotes are over

00:40:48.060 there. The link to the book is over there. Everything's over there. And then also while

00:40:51.680 you're online doing that, I would encourage you to drop me and, or Deacon a line and tell us what

00:40:57.220 you thought of the show. Tell us what you're going to implement and do different in your life.

00:41:00.500 Having heard what we discussed today about money and finances, you can do that on all the social

00:41:06.460 media channels at order of man. And I'm looking forward to hearing from you there. Outside of that

00:41:11.180 guys, you've got the Facebook group. We've got the meetup order of man.com slash Nashville. Love to

00:41:15.620 see as many of you as possible there. We just locked in the event center that we're going to be

00:41:20.520 doing at very, very cool venue, very unique venue. I always try to do something a little

00:41:24.340 different than some of these other conferences do over and over and over again. So make sure you head to

00:41:29.000 that order of man.com slash Nashville. And then of course our exclusive brotherhood. And when you

00:41:34.100 join our exclusive brotherhood, I forgot to mention this. You actually get an extra day at the

00:41:38.880 meetup specifically reserved for members of the iron council. There's a fireside. There's a dinner with

00:41:44.060 me a little bit more exclusive there. So if you get joined there, you're actually going to get that

00:41:48.500 for free when you head to the meetup. So if you're going to head to the meetup anyways, I'd encourage

00:41:52.380 you to also join the iron council. You can do so at order of man.com slash iron council guys. I will

00:41:58.440 look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then take action

00:42:02.380 and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

00:42:08.140 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:42:11.920 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 26, 2017

145： Retire Early ｜ Deacon Hayes

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