145： Retire Early ｜ Deacon Hayes
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Summary
In this episode, my friend Deacon Hayes joins me to talk about developing a personal financial plan, how to sift through all the financial noise, three investment vehicles to consider, including a quick conversation on cryptocurrency, and how you too can retire early.
Transcript
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Finances is such a huge component of living your life to the fullest, but in my experience,
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it's often one of the most overlooked. And this isn't because men don't believe it's not
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important, but because it's often so complex and challenging to get your money to work for you.
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One of the most commonly asked questions I get is what book would I recommend for personal
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finances? And although there's a ton to choose from, there hasn't been one that I consistently
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feel good about recommending. And that is until right now, my friend Deacon Hayes,
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the author of You Can Retire Early, joins me to talk about developing a personal financial plan,
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how to sift through all the financial noise, three investment vehicles to consider,
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including a quick conversation on cryptocurrency and how you too can retire early.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly
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chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you
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are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is
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who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,
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Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of
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this podcast, The Order of Man. I am glad that you are joining us from wherever you are. Big things
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going on for us and the mission of The Order. We are picking up steam with the podcast, and I want
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to thank you for sharing and being part of what we're doing here. I've really been focused over
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the past couple of weeks on our podcast guests for the first quarter of 2018, and I'm happy to tell
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you that we've got some incredible, incredible guests lined up. I'm going to be announcing those
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soon, but either way, make sure you subscribe if you have not yet done so. Outside of that, guys,
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a couple of quick announcements before we get into the discussion today. Make sure that you hurry
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and get registered for our book launch slash meetup party in Nashville, January 26th and
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27th, 2018. We are filling up those spots, new registrants every single day, and I want
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to make sure you get a ticket to that. This is also the book launch party for the book that's
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going to be released in February, and you as an attendee of that event are going to get
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a advanced signed copy. You can do that at orderofman.com slash Nashville. Outside of that,
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you can join the conversation. We're having big conversations over on Facebook. 40,000 guys
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now over there, and we're having conversations about health and business and money and finances
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and you name it. We're having conversations about being a better man over there. And then
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of course, our exclusive brotherhood. And I say exclusive because we've really narrowed
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this down to a very select few men who really want to level up in their lives and take their
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lives to the next level, especially heading into 2018 with new year's resolutions. We're going
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to teach you a system that actually works in keeping those resolutions, those goals, those
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objectives as we call them. I'm going to talk about it more during the break, but that's
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the iron council. And you can join us at orderofman.com slash iron council. Now today, my guest is personal
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finance blogger and author Deacon Hayes. I actually met Deacon years ago, years ago when I launched
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my very first podcast that many of you probably don't even know about. We've since had the opportunity
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to talk about blogging and podcasting, and of course money, which is something that we're
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both passionate about. He's been featured in Yahoo finance, us news, investopedia, CNN money,
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and many more. And has recently wrote a book called you can retire early. You're going to
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hear in this conversation why Deacon is well qualified to talk about money and finances and
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learn through his approach that the financial conversations and the planning that you need
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to be doing really aren't as complex as many institutions and organizations would have you
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believe. So guys, get the notepads out, get out your dusty old financial plans if you have one
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and learn how you can retire early. Deacon, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.
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Hey, Ryan. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
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I've been following you since the early days of my podcasting journey, which was a lot of guys think
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it's two and a half years. It's not. It's more like three and a half years because I actually had a
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financial advisory podcast, which is where I got familiar with your work about three,
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four years ago. That's awesome. Yeah. I remember you had, I think it was Wealth Anatomy.
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That's what it is. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm glad that we could connect on here. It's
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been a long time coming. Yeah. And I think we met at FinCon if I remember correctly too. So
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pretty cool to be having this conversation. Yeah. I love FinCon, man. I definitely think we
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met there. It was that community has changed my life. So, and I'm sure just like the order of men
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has changed a lot of these guys' lives. Well, I'm amazed at how open the financial advisory
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community is when you're talking about doing this stuff online and writing books and podcasting
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everything like that, because in the traditional financial advisory practice that I own, that I
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still own, it's a little bit more guarded and I've noticed it's a lot more open with what you guys
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are doing. So I appreciate that of you and the movement for sure. Yeah. And I think that's what
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it's about. It's about transparency, right? It's like, we don't want to hide things, right? We want
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to help people understand how they can get to where they want to be in life, right? So I think you're
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right though. It's definitely transitioned over the years. Well, let's get into this conversation.
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Retirement is kind of a, well, it's a buzzword and we hear it. And I think it has so many
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definitions. I've heard guys say, you know, I retired when I was 20. That doesn't really,
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to me, mean retirement. It just means they stepped away from their job and did something
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that they wanted to do. So I think there's a lot of definitions of retirement. So help me
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understand the context and the framework for the rest of the discussion today.
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When I talk about retirement, what I'm talking about is being able to have the financial resources
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to do what you want when you want to. The idea is, like you said, for these people that are in their
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twenties, it's not that they're going to not work ever again. It's that they have the freedom
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to choose when they work, who they work for. If they work for anybody, they could go serve in a
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nonprofit status. They could go start a business. They can do woodworking. I mean, whatever they
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want to do, it's being able to have the financial resources to do what you want when you want to do
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it. When you say financial resources, are you talking about passive financial resources,
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meaning the income is coming in to provide for your everyday expenses and some buffers there.
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And then you're just free, like you said, to do what it is you want to do.
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Yeah, exactly. So not having to work, you only work if you want to. And the funny thing is,
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is a lot of the people that I've interviewed or talked to about early retirement,
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they're not looking to not work. They just don't want to work doing what they were doing,
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right? So, you know, even though they are retired and they have that passive income to
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provide for them and their family, a lot of times they say, Hey, I want to do something
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productive that adds value. So they end up doing something else and making even more money.
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And I think that resonates with the guys that listen to this, because frankly,
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they wouldn't be listening to the show if they didn't have some sort of ambition
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for the way that they approach life. Very rarely have I met somebody who's like,
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I don't want to work. I just want to sit around and eat Cheetos all day. Like they want to do
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something of value and be meaningful in their lives.
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I resonate with that as well. It's, you know, you kind of have these talents, these gifts,
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these abilities that you want to use. You want to help serve others with them. And a lot of times
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we get trapped in a situation that we create ultimately where we're like, ah, I hate this job,
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or I hate this opportunity. I wish I was doing something else. And so this whole movement of
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financial independence and early retirement is more towards, Hey, how do you unlock those
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abilities to where you can actually focus your time doing what you love and make money in the
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process? So tell me where you are in this process, because in reading the book, you are not quite
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there if I understand that correctly, but you're on this path. So help me understand where you are
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currently. It is kind of complex. So technically we could call ourselves early retired. The reason why I
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don't is because I have a lot of like ambitious goals, you know, and there's things that I'd love
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to do and provide for my family that we don't have right now, you know, as far as freedom and as far
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as income coming in each month to do what we want, when we want, we have that. But there are other
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things like we want to buy a cabin so that we can, you know, do that a couple of times a year with
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our family and want to be able to go on international vacation. So there are these kind of like add on
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things to our early retirement that we're not there yet.
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So when you talk about the cabin and the vacations and the things like that,
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this kind of alludes to the next question that I wanted to address. And you actually
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cover this in depth, which is finding your why. Is that what you're talking about here? Because I
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think when I hear that, I think it's such an overused word that it's lost a lot of its meaning
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and significance. Yeah. You know, I watched that video from Simon Sinek about, you know, yeah.
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And that changed my life because it really was, it was just understanding like what drives us to do what
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we do. Why are we going to do this? You know, if you're going to retire early, what's your purpose?
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Because the reality is if you don't have that, it's all for nothing. You know,
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you're going to get there and you're going to be like, I'm bored out of my mind. Right?
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So you have to say, okay, no, really, why would I want to do this? Well, I want to put my kids
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through at least half of their college. We don't want to pay for their full college. We want to get
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them halfway there. We believe in kind of that mutual responsibility. We want to be able to travel
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the world and take our kids with us. We know we want to be able to give back in a major way.
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You know, I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for other people pouring time, energy, resources,
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money into my success. And so I wouldn't be able to do that for other people. So figuring out what
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that why is for you is so important because when times get tough and they will get tough,
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it's inevitable. You're going to stick through it. If you don't have that why you're going to
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easily give up and you're going to be back at square one. How do you make a why a very tangible
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thing for you? Because I think, for example, if you talk about traveling and want to be there for
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your family and want to go to the games and want to have a great relationship and a life of
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significance, those are very surface level things that I think everybody would probably agree to
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that. But I'm not quite sure if it's deep enough to connect you when things are going poorly and
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things are difficult. Yeah. So I'm looking at some pictures right now. So I have one. I was on a trip
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in Morocco helping rebuild some homes after an earthquake. Another one where we're down in Mexico
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with like literally some of my best friends that I still hang out with today. We were helping do some
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work down there. And like my wife and some of my best friends and, you know, like having those
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visual reminders of like, hey, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like I want to continue to
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be working towards those opportunities and having those experiences and helping others. And so,
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you know, put it on the fridge, put it in the visor of your car, put it on your desk, whatever
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those whys are, whether it's pictures, whether it's written word, something that kind of keeps you
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in the game, you know, without those reminders, you're right. It can be easy to kind of lose sight and
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not really feel real. Has your why changed over time? I've certainly articulated more clearly and
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even my priorities have changed. How has your why changed over time? Yeah. I mean, I think originally
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it was more vain, right? It really was kind of about success, money, those kinds of things. And so
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as I kind of progress in the journey and realize it's not about me, right? Like it is about my family,
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my kids, my friends, other people that, you know, I've got a buddy who started a personal finance
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website and he made 10 grand last month for the first time, helping him get from zero to 10 grand
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a month, you know, like things like that get me just fired up because I'm like, I'm helping people
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transform their lives. You know, the money doesn't even matter anymore. It's just a byproduct of doing
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the right things. Right. And so that's kind of a huge shift for me is it's not the success. It's not
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the money. It's how can I serve others with my gifts, talents, and abilities. And that shift has been
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huge. How did you get into this? I think it's very easy for a lot of people to look from the
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outside in and think, Oh, Deacon's always been good with his money. He probably learned growing
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up or he just has an organized personality or maybe even an obsessive personality.
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But I'd love to hear how you actually got into this. And then of course, started teaching it to
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other people. I wish I had that upbringing where like I learned about money, but I didn't. And you
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know what? I think that actually probably made my passion stronger. Both my parents got divorced and
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they both did not know how to handle money at all. So they both had their houses foreclosed on,
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both filed bankruptcy, both separately. So growing up, I didn't really know anything good
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about money. In fact, when my wife and I got married, we had $52,000 in debt outside of mortgage
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debt. And for us, that was a lot. We had a car payment, we had credit card debt, we had student
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loan debt. And we're like, Oh my gosh, we're starting out life in the negative. And this is this is
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normal now, right? I mean, that just seems so weird to us.
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Right. Yeah. Because if you were to combine two car payments and then, you know,
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Yeah. Yeah. So we're like, okay, we got to figure this out. So at the time I was selling wood flooring,
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it wasn't very, it wasn't exciting. You know, it was a decent paying job, but it wasn't something
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that I was passionate about. And we decided, okay, I'm going to research people that are successful
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with money, like Dave Ramsey, Ron Blue, Jim Cramer, Warren Buffett, all these different guys,
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read all these books. And then we're going to execute, we're going to make a plan. And I'm a big fan of
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smart goals. So we set an 18 month goal and said, Hey, okay, let's pay off this 52 grand in 18 months
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using these strategies. And when, you know, we did it. And that was that aha moment of like,
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how can I help other people do this? Right. Set out a goal, map out a plan to achieve it
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and change their life forever. You know? And so that's kind of how it all got started.
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How do you sift through the noise? Because we've got you, we've got your book,
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we've got thousands of other bloggers and podcasters. We've got, you know, Jim Cramer,
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Dave Ramsey, like you mentioned. And sometimes I think there's a lot of great information out there.
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And frankly, there's a lot of poor information out there. How does one begin to sift through the
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noise and figure out what's going to work well for them and their plan specifically?
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Yeah, that's a really good point. So I'll say I took a lot more from Dave Ramsey than I did Jim
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Cramer. I'm not a, I'm not, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. I'm not a single stock guy, but I wanted to
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have the balance, right? Like I want to be knowledgeable. And so it really is kind of having that filter of
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like, don't just take one source, right? Like kind of compare the sources and say, Hey, you know what,
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what Jim's talking about is a little bit riskier than what Dave's talking about, right? Having the
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discernment to know that, you know, cause I used to be a financial planner like you and you get people
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that can take an advantage of easily because they have someone that comes to them with this great
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opportunity and it's a limited time offer and they got to do it now. And then they get taken,
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you know, and you got, you got to just step back and say, Whoa, put the red flags up. I got to take a
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breather. Let me compare this against what else is going on. Oh, you know what? Index investing is a
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lot safer. It's a lot more proven and it's a lot more, you know, hands off. I'm going to probably
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pick that over this, you know, oil opportunity in Arabia, you know? Well, I think there's a lot
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to be said for instincts too, and your gut feeling. And I think when it comes to money, a lot of times
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people ignore that because they get excited and their emotions get in the way, right? I'm greedy
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or I'm fearful. And so they make these decisions outside of what their instinct in their gut is
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actually telling them, which is probably the prudent advice they should be following.
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Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the truth. And I think sometimes we discard that and, you know,
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we say, well, you know what, this is a limited time opportunity. So therefore I'm going to go
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away with my instincts and I'm going to just go for it. I'm going to roll the dice. And yeah,
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I think we got to step back and say, Whoa, why do I have that check in my gut? Probably because this
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is too good to be true. Let's take that 24 hour rule and let's sleep on it and then not make a decision
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right away. So this is one of the pitfalls, just going by your emotions, for example,
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making rash decisions, especially when you think the offer is probably too good to be true.
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What are some other pitfalls people are falling into when it comes to building wealth,
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I think really it's kind of the keeping up with the Joneses, right? I think that a lot of people,
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they see their friends getting the brand new cars, the brand new trucks, the nice house,
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you know, all those things. And I just think to myself, like, gosh, it takes a lot of time to build
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up the wealth to have those things, right? You can't just have them when you get your first job.
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And it really is kind of saying, okay, what do I really want out of life? And going back to that,
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why, right? If putting your kids through college is more important than owning a Lexus or a Mercedes
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or a lifted truck, then you got to say, I don't want the car payment. I'm going to put that money
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instead in my kid's college, right? You need to have a plan. And then you need to go back to when
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you're making those decisions. Okay. I can't afford a $600 a month car payment because I'm putting
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200 bucks a month in each one of my kids' college funds, right? So really, I think people don't sit
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down to do that. And so that's a huge pitfall because then kids want to go to college and like,
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sorry, buddy, we haven't saved for you. Well, you know, if you start when they're born,
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you're going to have tens of thousands, you know, if not a hundred thousand dollars for them to go to
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college, starting with as little as 50 bucks a month or, you know, something like that. So I think
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the reality is, is just really having that why and then developing the plan to make sure that
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you actually achieve the goals that you want to achieve.
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I think this is a really good point because I'm somebody who prides myself on being
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practical. For example, I drive a 99 Toyota Tacoma and outside of that, I have a 76 International
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Scout. Those are my two vehicles. And even for somebody like myself who prides himself on being
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practical and making prudent decisions. And of course, I've been in the financial planning
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industry for a decade. I still get tempted when I see the guy with the new truck drive by and I'm
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like, man, I really want that. But then I think I'm like, do I want that? Like, is that really
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that important to me? And the answer more often than not is no, I'd rather go on the vacation with
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my family, or I'd rather put that money aside, or I'd rather spend it here than there. And so I can
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see why having an alternative or what you really want is a benchmark to measure your purchasing
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decisions against. All right. I want people to envision this. Envision like you drive the new
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car off the lot. You've got a suitcase of cash of like $6,000 in your front seat. And as soon as you're
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driving away from the car dealership, just start grabbing handfuls of cash and throw it out the
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window, like all the way home, right? Because literally, that's what we did. When I first got
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married, my boss said, you need to have a reliable car. He put an ad on my desk and said, you could
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afford this. And I did that. I went and bought that exact car. And I literally lost $6,000 within
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the first year. And I was like, I can't afford to lose $6,000. I'm in my mid-20s, right? Like $6,000 is a lot
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of money. So really, I want people to envision that because that's what's happening, right? I would
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rather invest that, like you said, in my kid's college, in vacations, in retirement, whatever it
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might be, instead of throwing it away. You're talking a lot about a personalized plan,
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individualized plan. You're a financial advisor. I'm a financial advisor. Where does this come into
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play? Because I don't believe that everybody even needs a financial advisor. And I'd like to hear your
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thoughts on that and the distinction of when maybe you should and when you should not.
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Yeah. So just a quick clarification. So I'm not a financial advisor anymore. I used to be.
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No, and that's okay. But I like to say that because I kind of realized, like, I want to be
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just the average guy. Like, I have maybe a different level of knowledge, but I can definitely
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relate to the average person when it comes to creating a plan and putting all that stuff
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together. Well, and you've got a different perspective that the quote-unquote average guy
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does not have being in the industry. Right, right. So I say it's important for everybody,
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but the level of detail is up to you, right? So some people can get by with just saying,
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hey, let's just have a basic budget sheet that says income outgo, and this is what's
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left over. And then the leftover just goes in these different buckets that we want to achieve,
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right? As simple as that. Other people have like a hundred page deal. I'm a very simple guy. So
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literally I do have what I call a financial game plan. It's a one page form that basically has all
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of our stuff on one piece of paper and just making it very simple. If it's simple, it's easier to
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actually follow through. If it's complicated, the less likely you are to actually succeed with it.
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So for me, I think everybody should have one. Sit down. If you have a spouse, sit down with them
00:18:55.920
and dream a little, right? It's okay to dream. Say, would you like to have that cabin? Would you
00:19:00.380
like to go on these vacations? How much is that stuff going to cost? How much is it going to cost
00:19:04.720
put your kids through college or half a college? And then figure out on paper, what do you need to
00:19:09.580
be doing every month to get there? It sounds complex, but really when you look at it, each goal is just
00:19:15.960
one number. The cabin is X, college is X, traveling is X. And then you just say, I just need a certain
00:19:22.280
amount of money each month to get there. That's it. It's that simple.
00:19:25.860
And I imagine too, it has to do with your capability, right? And you've got to be real
00:19:29.180
with yourself too. Are you actually going to do it? If the answer is yes, and you've proven
00:19:33.700
that you are going to sit down and put together this one page plan or however elaborate you want it to
00:19:38.360
be, then there may be a case for you doing it on your own. But if you're not going to do that,
00:19:43.140
and you're truthful about it, don't hide that fact and maybe bring in some outside help and
00:19:47.480
support to get you to where you want to be. You're right. And there's some people that are
00:19:51.380
literally, they're good with Excel. They're good with being consistent and accountable and that
00:19:55.980
kind of thing. And if not, I mean, definitely seek outside help, whether it's a CPA, a financial
00:20:00.380
planner, whatever it might be for whatever your situation is, but someone that's more knowledgeable
00:20:04.140
to you that can basically kind of guide you through those steps because I know that I don't know
00:20:08.400
everything. So even I have a CPA, I don't do my own taxes, right? I go and I seek
00:20:13.120
help from people that know more than me. And so I definitely encourage people to do that if that
00:20:17.580
makes sense for them. We're obviously talking about money and financial planning today. And
00:20:23.480
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just because you will have a system through the iron council, don't think that we're going to do it
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that's order of man.com slash iron council. Now with that said, let's head back to the conversation
00:22:27.400
with Deacon. I want to go back to your previous debt situation because you said $52,000 in 18 months,
00:22:35.480
which is a tall order and pretty awesome that you were able to complete that. And I know you talk a
00:22:40.280
lot about debt and overcoming debt and how to pay it off in the book. How did you do that specifically?
00:22:45.280
Because there are guys out there that have less equal to, or even more debt than that, that would
00:22:49.600
love to be out from underneath that. A couple of things. First, we put together this game plan,
00:22:54.280
right? And so one of the things that I wanted to know was, okay, what are my debts and what are my
00:22:58.740
assets? You know, one of my debts was that brand new car I was talking about. And it was also an
00:23:03.560
asset, right? Because it had some equity in it or not. It didn't have any equity, but it was valuable,
00:23:07.900
right? Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, okay, that's about a $400 a month payment. If I could get out from
00:23:13.720
underneath that, I could take that 400 bucks and I can apply it towards our credit card debt, right?
00:23:18.280
So here I had this car that was upside down. I think it was about a thousand bucks because we had been
00:23:22.440
paying a little bit extra on it. And so I'm like, okay, let me figure out how to sell this upside
00:23:26.600
down car. So we have an extra $400 of breathing room per month. And so we sold a bunch of stuff
00:23:31.600
online on eBay, Craigslist to come up with that thousand bucks and sold that car. And in the same
00:23:36.400
process, my wife had a car that was worth five grand. So it was paid for. So we're like, okay,
00:23:40.620
let's buy two beater cars for five grand total with a little bit of wiggle room. So I think we paid
00:23:45.500
like 42, 50 or something. So we had some extra money left over to repair them because they're older cars.
00:23:50.420
And so that's what we did. It took a few months to get that process rolling, you know, between
00:23:54.860
selling two cars and buying a new car, actually buying two new cars, two new used cars. And so
00:24:00.560
that was a big deal. And that really put wind in our sails. At the same time, I got a job delivering
00:24:05.260
pizzas at night. So here I am working full time, 40, 50 hours a week. And then afterwards at nighttime,
00:24:10.620
I would go deliver pizzas. So I was doing that. I was also doing garage sale arbitrage. So I'd go to
00:24:15.720
garage sales, I'd scan stuff with my phone and I'd say, okay, this is selling for X,
00:24:20.420
it's on Amazon for 50 bucks. They're asking five bucks for it at the yard sale. So I bought it for
00:24:24.360
five, sold it for 50. I would do pretty much anything I could to come up with extra cash.
00:24:29.320
So it was kind of going above and beyond the norm, right? Like the norm is what got us in our debt.
00:24:34.460
And so for us to get out of it, it took us doing things, you know, that kind of put us outside of
00:24:38.080
our comfort zone. Well, definitely. And there's definitely an extreme measure to this, but I think
00:24:42.700
that's what it takes to alter the trajectory that you're currently on. This is almost like a physics
00:24:47.800
lesson. Like in order for you to change directions, there has to be a greater force against the
00:24:52.040
direction that you're going right now. Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think for us,
00:24:56.440
you know, once we had that solid why, like, okay, we don't want to end up kind of like our parents,
00:25:01.240
right? Where they just didn't handle their finances well. And so that built up some strength and then,
00:25:05.760
hey, you know what? We don't want to wait 10 years to pay off our student loans or 20 years,
00:25:10.000
right? We don't want to have car payments forever. So like all of that stuff kind of built up the
00:25:13.880
force to say, okay, let's start moving in a different direction so that we can accomplish
00:25:18.340
this in a short period of time. And I love that you're being creative about how to not only pay
00:25:22.680
the debt down, but then also to increase revenue. Because I think there's a lot to be said for
00:25:26.800
developing and articulating the creative muscle when it comes to building more wealth in your life.
00:25:32.520
Because I think a lot of people just think, well, I'll cut back spending and I won't live a better
00:25:36.640
life. And while there's validity to that, that's not the ultimate goal is to shoestring your entire
00:25:42.540
budget for the rest of your life. I'd rather live in a position of abundance, knowing that
00:25:46.200
the $5 purchase isn't really going to make that big a difference in the grand scheme of things.
00:25:50.420
But that can only happen if I've got the increasing income to support those types of
00:25:56.060
small decisions and purchases. And that was one of the things, we were going to hunker down for that
00:26:01.160
18 months, right? And then after that 18 months, my wife had a friend that lived in Singapore.
00:26:06.180
And so we're like, okay, we're going to save up money after we pay off our debt so that we can go pay
00:26:11.440
cash for a trip to Singapore, Hong Kong, and Indonesia. And so we were able to do that.
00:26:16.820
That was one of those things where it's like, yeah, we're not looking to live on a shoestring
00:26:19.980
budget the rest of our lives. We're looking to set ourselves up so that we have choices,
00:26:23.540
so that we have freedom, so we could do things that we wouldn't normally be able to do.
00:26:27.880
I love it. Yeah. One of the scenarios that we just went through personally,
00:26:31.260
and as of the release of this podcast, we're actually probably in Hawaii right now.
00:26:37.380
And my wife and I, as we were planning this trip, we're looking at places to stay. And there was
00:26:41.860
some hotels and there was some Airbnb type things that we were going to stay at around the price
00:26:46.220
that we were looking for. And then there was this really cool bamboo house that we wanted to rent,
00:26:51.420
but it was about 40 or 50% more than what we wanted to pay. But we looked through the budget
00:26:57.260
and we realized, man, this is a great opportunity. We had the money to do it and the resources,
00:27:01.800
and we just made it happen because we had that flexibility. And like you said, the option
00:27:05.760
to be able to do that should we want to. That's the type of abundance that I want to live in.
00:27:10.400
Yeah. And I'm with you, man. I mean, I think that's the thing is,
00:27:12.820
it is kind of value. Like, what do you value? And if you say, okay, this is a once in a lifetime
00:27:17.700
experience with my family, and this is important to us, and we're really good when it comes to other
00:27:22.800
things, and we have the money to do this, then go for it. But I think that making sure people know
00:27:27.840
what that value is, right? Like some people think it's like getting the new rims on the truck or the lift
00:27:32.200
or whatever, and they don't have the money, right? So making sure that you set yourself up for
00:27:36.260
financial success first before making those types of choices.
00:27:39.740
Well, and one of the things that you talk a lot about as well is this myth that the more that you
00:27:44.280
have, the more stuff that you have, that somehow you'll be happy. I found the exact opposite to be
00:27:50.080
Yeah, me too. I love that movie. I think it's called like Becoming Minimalist or something like that on
00:27:54.860
Netflix. And it's a little extreme, but I think they had this less is more mentality,
00:27:59.440
right? Like the less stuff you have, the less you have to manage, the less stuff you have to
00:28:03.500
clean, you know, worry about. I mean, and so it is, it's one of those things of like,
00:28:07.700
just really focusing that on what does matter. What matters is relationships. What matters is
00:28:11.960
family. What matters is serving others and having purpose, you know? And so those things like far
00:28:19.400
There's so much that we could talk about. I'm having a hard time figuring out what we should actually
00:28:23.500
address because you do go so into depth in this book and cover so much. I want to talk with you
00:28:28.460
about the different investment options. Generally speaking, I know there's probably an infinite
00:28:33.240
number of things we can invest in, but you break it down to the top three investment categories.
00:28:40.260
The top three are going to be real estate, stock market, and business. I actually do all three.
00:28:45.480
You know, I'm a big fan of diversification and not just saying, Hey, I'm just going to do one and be
00:28:48.500
really good at it. And it sounds a little bit counterintuitive because I am all about focus,
00:28:51.980
but I think that having your hand in these different pots. So when it comes to real estate,
00:28:56.020
really just talking about, okay, how could I own real estate? And I'm a risk averse guy.
00:29:00.080
So with the least amount of debt possible, so figuring out how to have enough of a down payment.
00:29:04.520
And so we'll just run through a quick scenario of, okay, if you could get four rental properties
00:29:08.760
and net a thousand dollars a month, that gets you 48 grand a year, right? So then you say,
00:29:13.000
how do I get my first one? Then how do I get my second one? Then I get my third one. How do I
00:29:16.040
get my fourth one? And then how do I pay them all off? The other scenario is the stock market,
00:29:19.300
the Warren Buffett way, if you will, or John Bogle, where it's, Hey, you know what? I'm going to
00:29:23.760
invest my money into companies that are doing well. I'm a big fan of index investing, which is
00:29:28.320
basically, I think of the S and P 500 is the 500 largest companies in America. There's an index
00:29:33.340
that you can just buy into that. And you own a piece of 500 companies, right? You just set it
00:29:37.280
and forget it. And so that's another way. And the other one, which is my favorite and probably yours
00:29:41.220
too, Ryan is business is being able to say, Hey, I'm going to use my gifts, talents, and abilities to
00:29:45.100
help other people and make money in the process. And then figuring out how to delegate the tasks that
00:29:50.280
someone else can do. And then you can focus on the things that you're really good at.
00:29:53.820
And so those are the three paths towards early retirement and kind of investing your resources.
00:29:58.760
Let's talk about the elephant in the room also. And this is something that's been talked about so
00:30:03.520
much, and that is cryptocurrency. You know, as of the time that we're recording this,
00:30:07.620
Bitcoin is at almost $13,000. Where do you see this fitting in? And is this a viable
00:30:15.460
Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say if you ever wanted to speculate on something like
00:30:20.460
Bitcoin, no more than 10% of your investments, but myself, I'm 0%. I think that there's definitely,
00:30:27.620
I mean, the Winklevoss twins or Winklevi as a billion dollar cryptocurrency guys.
00:30:33.440
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously they made a ton of money, right? I think that it is speculative.
00:30:37.760
It's not something that's proven, right? Like you can look at the stock market,
00:30:40.600
you can look at real estate, you can look at business models, and you can look for a hundred,
00:30:44.060
if not 200 years and say, okay, this has had this type of return, you know, if you do it this way,
00:30:50.620
where Bitcoin doesn't have that track record. So I think really looking at the investment
00:30:53.940
opportunities that come your way and say, you know, what's the track record? How likely is it
00:30:57.760
to happen? If someone's considering it, I would do 10% or less of your investable assets.
00:31:02.780
I personally have money in Bitcoin, which is significantly less than 10% of my investable
00:31:07.580
assets. I do look at it as speculation. It is not investing. If somebody says to me,
00:31:12.200
am I investing in cryptocurrency? The answer is no, but I am speculating in cryptocurrency because
00:31:16.700
it's kind of fun, quite honestly, but I don't look at it as a viable, at this point,
00:31:21.080
a viable option within my financial strategy. Yeah. And I think that's a healthy way to view it,
00:31:25.380
right? My fear is though, is that someone will say, Hey, you don't want to take my life savings
00:31:29.420
and invest it because I can double it. Right. And I'm like, no, don't do that. Right.
00:31:32.960
But I think your view of like, okay, it's less than 10%. It's speculation. I'm not relying on this
00:31:37.860
money to retire or provide for my family. That's a more healthy view to have.
00:31:42.200
One of the things that you talk a lot about as well is an environment that actually helps you
00:31:46.580
achieve what it is you want to achieve. And we all know the adage, you are the average of the
00:31:51.160
five people that you spend the most time with and show me your five closest friends and I'll show you
00:31:55.400
the six, those kinds of things. But there's so much value in setting up an environment to succeed.
00:32:01.720
How do you do this when it comes to your financial plan?
00:32:03.960
I mean, the first thing that people can do is obviously get your spouse on the same page.
00:32:08.360
So sitting down with them and not telling them or dictating them, this is what you're going to do.
00:32:12.780
You got to do it together and say, dream together, you know, that type of thing.
00:32:16.180
If you don't have a spouse, you know, find somebody that's good with money that, you know,
00:32:18.840
a friend or family member that you can be accountable to. Right. And just kind of saying,
00:32:22.800
Hey, this is what I want to do. And I'd love for you to, you know, we have a phone call once a month
00:32:27.000
or every couple of weeks, just kind of go over it. Really surround yourself with people that are going in the
00:32:32.180
same direction. You know, when it comes to that, the other thing I have a math before we move on
00:32:35.820
to the next one, of course, I want to ask you how often you meet with your wife specifically to talk
00:32:40.760
money. We specifically do about once a month now, but we will, when it comes to purchases that maybe
00:32:47.700
are outside of our budget, you know, it could be like Christmas and things like that. We might like
00:32:52.000
weekly talk about specific things, right? We kind of have a threshold of 300 bucks. Like if it's over
00:32:57.340
300 bucks, we're going to sit down, we're going to talk about it. If it's within our categories,
00:33:00.860
we don't worry about it. So really, you know, that once a month minimum early on though,
00:33:05.400
like, so for people that are listening, never done this before, we're doing it weekly.
00:33:08.260
Right. And that's exactly what we were doing. And we still do weekly, but our meetings are
00:33:11.940
significantly shorter because we know we're all on the same page. We have the same vision
00:33:17.000
and there just might be some extraordinary type expenses or income or whatever that might be coming
00:33:22.080
up based on the time of year. And I think that's smart, you know, and I think we're going to start
00:33:26.200
transitioning back to that. We just had our second kid. So we have two kids under three,
00:33:30.440
congrats by the way. Thanks man. So life's been hectic,
00:33:33.420
but obviously I'm not about excuses. I'm about saying, okay, let's get back to a more steady
00:33:37.840
routine and something that's going to keep us even better on track, you know? So the more we meet,
00:33:42.320
the better we are with our finances as simple as that. So I interrupted you. Keep going. You talked
00:33:46.680
about making sure that you've got some sort of accountability partner, whether that's a spouse
00:33:50.160
or a friend or whoever it may be. What's next? A mastermind. You know, I have people that are kind
00:33:55.880
of in a similar place in life as me that have businesses that are similar to mine. And we talk
00:34:00.720
about like, where do we want to go? How are we going to get there? What are we going to work on
00:34:04.080
right now this week? We meet weekly. What are we going to work on right now this week? That's going
00:34:08.980
to push the needle forward. Right? So that's been helpful for me, not only in the financial space,
00:34:13.820
but in the business space. And even if you don't own a business, right? Like you could still do that.
00:34:18.240
You could say, okay, here are some goals that I have for me and my family and meeting with guys on a
00:34:22.880
regular basis just to make sure that you're on track. And that's been huge for us.
00:34:27.080
Yeah, that's definitely powerful. I know having people in my corner that I can have conversations
00:34:31.280
with. And of course, just the resource of having those people available has been powerful for me.
00:34:36.220
You know, one of the questions that I get a lot with in my financial planning practice and just
00:34:40.480
people in general is the concern that people have that they'll take one step forward and then two
00:34:46.780
steps back. You know, they start saving money, for example, and then their kid breaks their arm and
00:34:50.260
they have to spend all that money to cover the medical bills. How do you suggest people deal
00:34:54.720
with the setbacks that come up and just the trials to building your wealth?
00:34:59.960
One of the first things is having an emergency fund. So having three to six months of emergency
00:35:03.940
money. So literally if you made, let's say $2,000 in expenses per month, that you need to have at
00:35:09.020
least six to 12 grand sitting in a bank account. That was life-changing for us because when we first did
00:35:13.420
that, we had never had that much money in a bank account, right? We always live kind of paycheck to
00:35:17.100
paycheck. And then when stuff happened, like our AC unit went out, we got four grand in the bank.
00:35:22.600
We just take it out and pay for it. You know, like we weren't used to that, but it took us a long time
00:35:26.880
to build that up. Right. The cool thing is, is like, once you get that momentum built, right? Like you
00:35:31.400
hammer the debt and then you move on to making that three to six month emergency fund, it just becomes
00:35:36.020
kind of second nature. So right now I'm sure some people are listening to like, oh my gosh, that's a lot
00:35:39.980
of money. Right. But you just start at step one, which is make the plan. Step two, start executing on the plan.
00:35:46.300
Step three, start fine tuning and tweaking where the errors are, you know, and making it better and
00:35:50.980
then keep executing until you get rid of the debt and then focus on the emergency fund. So really that
00:35:55.400
emergency fund is the best way to have this buffer between you and all of those unknowns.
00:36:00.520
Yeah. And you know, guys listening to this and I've certainly fallen into this category where it
00:36:04.300
just becomes at some point a little overwhelming thinking about, oh, I've got to have the emergency fund
00:36:08.900
and I've got to be contributing to my 401k and I've got to be doing this and I've got to be at this
00:36:12.960
level and I've got to be X times my income at this certain age. And there's all kinds of little formulas
00:36:17.680
and calculations that are crafted. But I think at the end of the day, it's just about creating the habits
00:36:22.240
of discipline that will set you up and put you in the right position. If all you can save, for example,
00:36:26.600
is 25 bucks a month and that's what's going toward your emergency fund. Great. The habit is being developed.
00:36:31.660
You can increase contributions from there, but develop those powerful habits that are going to set you up
00:36:36.500
right. Yeah. And you know, I actually read a book called The Power of Habits by Charles Duhigg.
00:36:40.880
Yeah. That was amazing. Have you read that one? I have. It's a great book.
00:36:44.700
Yeah. So I definitely echo that. I mean, creating those habits and understanding,
00:36:48.240
it just starts with that one decision today, right? Sure. And the other side of it too,
00:36:52.260
is I think when you start implementing these habits and you see the results from the habits that
00:36:57.200
you've implemented, it starts to become a game. So for example, you might have $48,000 set aside and
00:37:03.980
you're like, how can I hit 50? And you do everything that you can. Maybe you sell a few
00:37:07.440
things or you increase contributions, you do whatever you can to hit 50. And then you see
00:37:11.740
that and you're like, cool, how can I hit 55? And so having those habits and then of course,
00:37:16.200
turning this into a game, I think is also very helpful. Yeah. That's another good point. So
00:37:20.960
really I have a spreadsheet for everything, you know, and I don't think people need to go this crazy,
00:37:24.940
but just tracking your progress was huge. We actually had it on our fridge. So we started at 52,000
00:37:30.300
in an Excel spreadsheet and say like, forget if it was January or whatever. And then the next
00:37:33.880
month we're at like 51,000, right? The next month we're at like 48,000, you know, and then we sell
00:37:38.740
the car at like 30,000. We're like, oh my gosh, how can we get this going faster? So really, yeah,
00:37:43.020
that tracking and having like whatever works for you, you know, if it's visual, if it's being able
00:37:47.720
to have those meetings with your wife, just making sure that you start doing those today.
00:37:51.240
So you use a spreadsheet. Is there other software that you'd recommend? Now there's a lot of programs.
00:37:55.880
Mint is one of them and you actually walked through some suggestions in the book. What would you
00:37:59.660
recommend as far as financial software guys can look into? I love personal capital. Basically,
00:38:05.260
it will allow you to do a couple of things. So it would let you do the budgeting side,
00:38:08.200
but it also will let you do an analysis from your investing side. So it's a little bit deeper than
00:38:12.460
Mint, but Mint is great for like husband and wife team where they're not that tech savvy and they want
00:38:17.980
something where it's like, I just want to know how much I have left in my budget for food or whatever.
00:38:21.520
Mint's great as well. Right on. Well, hey, Deacon, you're speaking my language right here. I could
00:38:25.520
probably lose track of time and let this go forever. I'm not going to do that for the sake of the
00:38:29.120
guys listening are like, oh, these geeks talking about finances and money. But guys, here's the
00:38:33.560
deal. If you want to learn more about it, just go out and buy the book. It's a very, very good book.
00:38:39.060
A lot of great information in here. And one of the questions I get all the time is what books,
00:38:43.740
what resources are available for building wealth, financial planning, paying off debt. This is
00:38:49.300
genuinely a very, very good resource. Deacon, I want to ask you a couple of questions as we wind down.
00:38:54.620
And the first one is what does it mean to be a man?
00:38:58.080
What I'd say is being able to protect, to provide. I mean, as far as when I look at my family and
00:39:04.320
thinking about like the influence that I have right on my kids, on my wife and those around me,
00:39:10.040
those are huge for me. And then to serve with, you know, my gifts, talents and abilities, you know,
00:39:14.240
other people in society. And so those would be the three things that I'd say being a man is.
00:39:18.420
Well, that ties in exactly with what I believe it is to protect, provide, preside, which is another
00:39:23.240
way to say leadership. So I think you and I are on very similar beliefs with regards to that. And
00:39:27.700
of course, money too, it sounds like. So we're on similar paths, man.
00:39:30.780
Yeah, absolutely, man. And I definitely am a big fan of what you're building here and your community.
00:39:36.780
Right on. How do we connect with you, find the blog, pick up the book,
00:39:41.060
If people want to find me, I'm at wellkeptwallet.com. We actually have a promotion right now. If you go to
00:39:45.800
wellkeptwallet.com slash retire, you get my course debt-free in 18 months for free.
00:39:50.800
So literally I designed it to help people get out of debt in a short period of time. So I just walk
00:39:54.240
them through like smart goals and how to achieve these goals in a short period of time. That'd be
00:39:57.980
the best place, wellkeptwallet.com slash retire.
00:40:00.280
Right on. We'll link that up so the guys know exactly where to go. Deacon, I appreciate you,
00:40:03.780
man. Of course, appreciate the way that you show up. Pretty cool to be able to have this conversation
00:40:07.600
four or five years after we met at FinCon. And of course, following you for a long time,
00:40:11.700
I appreciate the work that you do. And this money component is such a critical
00:40:15.780
and often overlooked component of us being able to step into our role fully as men. So I appreciate
00:40:22.040
the work that you're doing. Yeah. Thanks so much, Ryan. I appreciate it. And thanks for having me on
00:40:25.620
the show. Gentlemen, there it is. If you want more information on this show, including a link to the
00:40:32.140
book, and I highly, highly recommend the book, somewhat of a quick read, very informative. And I
00:40:37.700
know it's going to provide a lot of value in your life as you're trying to build more wealth in it.
00:40:41.920
Uh, you can go to order of man.com slash one four five show notes are over there. Quotes are over
00:40:48.060
there. The link to the book is over there. Everything's over there. And then also while
00:40:51.680
you're online doing that, I would encourage you to drop me and, or Deacon a line and tell us what
00:40:57.220
you thought of the show. Tell us what you're going to implement and do different in your life.
00:41:00.500
Having heard what we discussed today about money and finances, you can do that on all the social
00:41:06.460
media channels at order of man. And I'm looking forward to hearing from you there. Outside of that
00:41:11.180
guys, you've got the Facebook group. We've got the meetup order of man.com slash Nashville. Love to
00:41:15.620
see as many of you as possible there. We just locked in the event center that we're going to be
00:41:20.520
doing at very, very cool venue, very unique venue. I always try to do something a little
00:41:24.340
different than some of these other conferences do over and over and over again. So make sure you head to
00:41:29.000
that order of man.com slash Nashville. And then of course our exclusive brotherhood. And when you
00:41:34.100
join our exclusive brotherhood, I forgot to mention this. You actually get an extra day at the
00:41:38.880
meetup specifically reserved for members of the iron council. There's a fireside. There's a dinner with
00:41:44.060
me a little bit more exclusive there. So if you get joined there, you're actually going to get that
00:41:48.500
for free when you head to the meetup. So if you're going to head to the meetup anyways, I'd encourage
00:41:52.380
you to also join the iron council. You can do so at order of man.com slash iron council guys. I will
00:41:58.440
look forward to talking with you on Friday for our Friday field notes, but until then take action
00:42:02.380
and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
00:42:08.140
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:42:11.920
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.