Order of Man - 159： Embrace the Suffering ｜ Rorke Denver

00:00:00.200 Suffering isn't typically something people like to attract in their lives, but the reality is you cannot fully escape it.

00:00:06.680 It's part of the human experience.

00:00:08.560 So rather than run from the unexpected suffering we're all likely to face,

00:00:12.580 my guest Navy SEAL Commander Rourke Denver suggests we run towards it and embrace it instead.

00:00:17.760 Today we talk about the power of identifying and living by a set of ethos,

00:00:21.440 how to create an extremely powerful ecosystem for success,

00:00:25.120 when you should follow the rules and when you should break them,

00:00:27.600 and how you can embrace the suffering life is bound to present.

00:00:31.780 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.

00:00:34.580 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:37.500 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:41.980 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:47.020 This is your life. This is who you are.

00:00:49.540 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:00:52.460 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:56.220 Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:00:58.260 My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and the founder of this podcast,

00:01:01.640 The Order of Man.

00:01:02.580 Welcome to the movement.

00:01:04.280 We are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of men strong and we are growing every single day.

00:01:08.980 I am honored, I am humbled, and I am inspired that you are here joining us today in this podcast.

00:01:15.780 This podcast is designed to help you expand, to help you grow,

00:01:20.040 to help you become a better man, a better husband, a better father, a business owner, a community leader,

00:01:25.660 whatever area of life that you are trying to improve in.

00:01:29.300 We are here to give you the tools, the guidance, the direction, the resources,

00:01:33.020 and specifically with this podcast, the conversations with other men, like-minded men

00:01:37.920 who are experiencing big, big results in their lives.

00:01:41.440 We have guys like this show today, Commander Rourke Denver, Jocko Willink, Lewis Howes,

00:01:46.680 Andy Frisilla, Grant Cardone, Tim Kennedy, Ryan Holiday, the list goes on and on and on

00:01:51.980 on who we've had in this podcast.

00:01:54.460 And it's just been an incredible, an incredible experience for me to be able to have conversations

00:01:58.820 with these guys.

00:01:59.480 And I hope that you've gained just as much, if not more than I have in being part of this

00:02:04.240 movement for the past three years.

00:02:06.540 And it's even crazy to say that it was March of 2015.

00:02:09.560 So we are officially at the three-year anniversary with this podcast, with this movement.

00:02:15.020 And again, I'm so inspired by what we're doing and how we're growing.

00:02:18.540 And on that note, guys, I would ask if you would, please make sure you subscribe to this

00:02:22.540 show.

00:02:22.880 All right.

00:02:23.160 If you haven't subscribed, go ahead and get subscribed.

00:02:25.340 We've got a killer lineup.

00:02:26.560 I've got about eight new podcasts in the hopper right now, waiting to be released.

00:02:30.620 You are not going to want to miss these things.

00:02:32.460 Powerful, powerful conversations.

00:02:33.760 So make sure you subscribe and then on the lines of growth, make sure if you would, please,

00:02:37.880 I ask that you also share this.

00:02:39.840 All right.

00:02:40.020 If we have good information, if we have information that's going to help us step up the way that

00:02:43.820 we as men need to step up, I believe to some degree, we have some sort of an obligation

00:02:48.060 to make sure that we're sharing that with other men who are after this information and

00:02:53.080 who would benefit from the information that we have as well.

00:02:55.880 So if you would share this episode, share this podcast, go to orderaman.com, share the website,

00:03:01.380 whatever you can do to spread the word and spread the movement to help this thing grow.

00:03:05.880 This is much, much needed in society today.

00:03:08.280 If you've been around for any amount of time, I think you would agree with that.

00:03:11.900 Guys, I want to get into the show, but before I do, I want to give you a couple of very,

00:03:16.540 very quick announcements.

00:03:17.960 Number one, and this is very applicable today.

00:03:20.000 I've talked a lot about the brotherhood because there's a lot of people out there, a lot of men

00:03:23.900 who want to know how to take this mission and this movement a step further.

00:03:28.520 What is the next step after this podcast or after the Facebook group?

00:03:32.160 And the next step is our brotherhood.

00:03:33.680 It's called the Iron Council.

00:03:35.000 And the reason it's very, very applicable today is because my guest, Commander Rourke Denver,

00:03:41.140 just came on to one of our calls that we have every single week with the brotherhood,

00:03:46.660 again, the Iron Council, and we did an hour long Q&A session and it was unbelievable.

00:03:52.280 I got so much great feedback from the men inside of the Iron Council.

00:03:55.620 We have roughly 365, 370 men there now.

00:04:00.320 And the feedback that I receive on this Q&A with Rourke was simply incredible.

00:04:05.660 So if you want to join us, if you want to connect with these other 360 men,

00:04:09.500 and then also connect with our guest experts that we're bringing on each and every month,

00:04:13.600 I've got a great one lined up for the month of April on the subject of finances and budgeting

00:04:19.520 and investing, then make sure you join us.

00:04:22.340 You can do that at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:04:25.560 Again, that's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:04:28.360 And then also last week, I mentioned we've got a new show sponsor, but this is so much

00:04:32.420 more important than just a show sponsor.

00:04:34.300 I was doing that for a while.

00:04:35.480 And quite frankly, I just didn't want to pitch or hawk products that weren't relevant

00:04:39.700 to you.

00:04:40.120 They were great products.

00:04:41.000 They may or may not have been relevant.

00:04:42.700 I'm working with a couple of organizations and more specifically now I'm working with a

00:04:46.500 friend.

00:04:46.760 His name is Pete Roberts.

00:04:47.760 He's with Origin, Maine.

00:04:49.700 And if you guys don't know about Origin, you've got to become familiar with their company.

00:04:55.060 He's got a great podcast.

00:04:56.640 He's got great products.

00:04:58.320 Specifically what they're doing is they're making training gear, compression gear, lifestyle

00:05:02.980 apparel.

00:05:03.820 A lot of you guys are into Brazilian jujitsu.

00:05:06.600 They cover a lot of that with their gear and compression gear as well.

00:05:09.980 But then also, and one of the things that I use quite a bit, in fact, I use it every single

00:05:13.980 day is their nutritional division, which they've partnered up with Jocko Willink.

00:05:19.540 And of course, most of you probably follow or listen to Jocko's podcast.

00:05:23.260 But with Origin, they have joint warfare, which has been really, really good for me as I get 1.00

00:05:29.060 older.

00:05:29.540 I'm 37 now.

00:05:31.560 My joints just aren't quite what they used to be.

00:05:34.040 They're still good.

00:05:34.620 I'm still healthy.

00:05:35.440 But that joint warfare goes such a long way in making these joints feel just a little 0.56

00:05:39.420 bit better.

00:05:39.840 And then I also use their Super Krill, which has been really good as well.

00:05:44.100 And then they have a supplement called Discipline, which I take.

00:05:48.060 And so all of these nutritional supplements are very, very helpful when it comes to my specific

00:05:53.080 training regimen, which I have actually increased and improved over the past two or three months.

00:05:58.060 I've been really active there.

00:05:59.120 And these things help just a little bit more than when I wasn't taking them.

00:06:01.980 So guys, if you're interested in what Origin is doing, at a minimum, just go check out their

00:06:06.600 story.

00:06:07.160 I mean, these guys are absolutely incredible.

00:06:08.960 They're taking America back. 0.87

00:06:10.480 They claim 100% made in America without compromise.

00:06:14.220 So everything they do is made in America. 0.90

00:06:16.360 And I am truly inspired by Pete and his team with Origin.

00:06:19.600 Go to Origin, Maine.

00:06:21.340 And Maine is the state.

00:06:22.600 So Origin, M-A-I-N-E, originmaine.com slash order of man.

00:06:27.340 And then I just talked with Pete.

00:06:28.680 If you use ORDER in all caps, O-R-D-E-R in all caps at checkout, you get 5% off on your order.

00:06:36.000 So guys, again, originmaine.com slash order of man.

00:06:39.480 Go check them out.

00:06:40.340 Now, with that said, let's get into this conversation.

00:06:42.940 And before we do, let me just introduce my guest.

00:06:45.740 I was at an event about a month or so ago.

00:06:48.960 And my guest name today, it was brought up to me at that event three times in about five or 10 minutes.

00:06:54.400 So I was intrigued on who this guy was.

00:06:57.180 I had not heard of him before.

00:06:58.380 I looked him up and immediately knew that I needed to connect with him.

00:07:01.920 His messaging and what he's sharing is very similar to what we're doing here.

00:07:05.020 And then every once in a while, you make a new connection that feels more like an old friend than new acquaintances.

00:07:12.520 And that is exactly how I felt when I started talking with Rourke Denver.

00:07:16.420 This interview is actually the very first time that we talked.

00:07:19.420 This guy is truly incredible.

00:07:21.340 He's a Navy SEAL.

00:07:22.620 He's Ranger qualified.

00:07:24.140 He's a New York Times bestselling author.

00:07:25.960 And then on top of all that, he starred in the movie, Act of Valor.

00:07:29.480 If you've seen it, it's a great movie.

00:07:31.000 I'd recommend watching it.

00:07:32.460 But since he's gone on to creating an amazing business focused on the idea of living life ever onward and always driving forward,

00:07:40.060 he's taking all the lessons he's learned and sharing them with others and the world so they can learn what it takes to lead their own lives,

00:07:46.860 which is obviously a lot of what we're doing here.

00:07:48.660 And then speaking of leadership, this man is an incredible leader.

00:07:52.480 You'll hear that in the interview today and has since become a friend of mine.

00:07:56.580 I believe in finding and connecting with high quality men and Rourke is among the best.

00:08:03.360 Rourke, such an honor to have you on the show.

00:08:04.980 Thanks for joining me today.

00:08:06.340 Thank you, brother.

00:08:07.000 I'm excited.

00:08:07.700 Yeah, we were talking about it just a second ago.

00:08:09.560 Your name got brought up several times in a matter of like five minutes.

00:08:12.800 I was at a conference like three weeks or so ago and your name just kept getting brought up.

00:08:17.320 I'm like, all right, let me check this guy out.

00:08:18.740 And I jumped on Twitter, saw what you were up to, jumped on your site, saw what you were up to.

00:08:22.640 I'm like, oh, yeah, we need to have a conversation with him for sure.

00:08:25.500 No, I think the universe, no matter what your beliefs are, you know, religious, mystical or otherwise, it works in funny ways.

00:08:33.260 As you said, I feel like within under a week, the same thing happened on my end.

00:08:38.180 Your name came up through two friends and then it was like all of a sudden we're talking on email and it was off to the races.

00:08:43.480 So, yeah, it's meant to be.

00:08:44.880 Well, I think people that are doing big things and good things and I try to place myself in that category are bound to meet at some point, right?

00:08:50.960 Sure, for sure.

00:08:51.900 Yeah.

00:08:52.280 Well, hey, as I was doing some research and looking into a little bit about what you were doing and your mission and your purpose and your background, I came across something that I found really interesting, which was on your site.

00:09:01.860 It was your ethos.

00:09:02.840 And I wanted to lead off the conversation with that because I think it'll create some framework and foundation for the rest of the discussion today.

00:09:10.200 And I really think having an ethos and having a model by which to live is really, really important.

00:09:15.460 Can you explain to me a little bit about how you came up with the ethos and why that's so important to you?

00:09:19.920 I think it was kind of riffing on, you know, my time in the military.

00:09:24.420 There's a tremendous number of organizations across, you know, across our greater military.

00:09:29.620 I was a member of the SEAL community for my entire military career and I'm actually finishing up still.

00:09:35.240 I did 13 active duty years in the SEAL teams, a lot of combat experience in those windows of time.

00:09:39.940 And then ended up kind of finishing my active career, running the training at the SEAL training compound out in Coronado.

00:09:47.560 And in my time in the SEAL teams, we actually developed an ethos that hadn't been there when I started.

00:09:53.760 So, I mean, I think if you'd asked the SEAL previous to the codifying of it with an actual written ethos, I think everybody would have given you different answers.

00:10:02.520 You would have seen a lot of commonality, of course, in what we believe in and who we think we are and what we stand for.

00:10:07.940 I happen to know kind of from behind the curtain that one of our senior admirals was at a meeting with other special operations forces, right?

00:10:16.220 So Green Berets and Rangers and these other units.

00:10:18.520 And one of the generals, and I don't know which one it was, but let's say it was the SF general that the Green Beret general said, you know, kind of gave him a hard time, you know, probably having drinks or something, saying, well, you know, you guys haven't even as a community written down what you believe in.

00:10:32.120 I mean, there's the Ranger creed and the ethos that the Green Berets look at.

00:10:36.300 And if you just took Semper Fidelis as the lone pipe hitter ethos of the Marine Corps, those are codified special things. 0.65

00:10:43.620 And it kind of engaged him to say, you know, that's true.

00:10:47.020 We know who we are, but we should have written that down at some point so it can kind of stand the test of time.

00:10:51.920 So we did that as an organization.

00:10:53.940 So, you know, your listeners can Google the SEAL ethos and read it.

00:10:57.640 It's a document that's easy to get your hand on.

00:10:59.460 But it's a special document, you know, talks to the things we believe in and, you know, who we are.

00:11:04.960 And the nice thing is it sets a standard for the new guys, right?

00:11:08.060 The new meets coming into the team that this is what we believe in and this is what you're going to be asked to become a part of and to water that set of values or take from it.

00:11:17.600 And then you're going to see how that works out.

00:11:19.580 And so the idea of an ethos is something that I think is hugely important.

00:11:22.940 So on my website, RoarkDenver.com, I've created this brand called Ever Onward, which is I always signed off with my emails or text to buddies and stuff with Onward.

00:11:33.260 And Ever Onward seemed like the full realization of that thought of kind of always moving forward and always driving for what's next.

00:11:40.200 And, you know, on the battlefield, there's times to go backwards.

00:11:43.060 In general, the group that advances and pushes forward wins the fight.

00:11:46.740 And so on my site, I just created an ethos, not so much so people could read mine.

00:11:52.000 I have my own personal ethos that I feel like I've written for myself, for my family, and I share that with about my family only.

00:11:59.780 But I use pieces of that and then I use pieces of other ethos that I've read and kind of digested to kind of just encourage people, either an individual or an organization, to do that.

00:12:12.000 To take the time to sit down and set to the task of saying, who am I?

00:12:16.140 What do I believe in?

00:12:17.080 What's important to me?

00:12:18.180 And there's something about, I'm sure you know this and would echo this, there is something about writing things down that makes it better.

00:12:27.500 It just makes it concrete.

00:12:29.040 It makes it tangible.

00:12:30.620 It's something that you can reference.

00:12:32.640 I feel like an ethos is a living document.

00:12:34.840 So, you know, you can adjust it as you want.

00:12:36.960 But that's where that came from.

00:12:39.060 No, I like it.

00:12:39.600 I think it's really, really important that we have this framework and this foundation from which to work.

00:12:44.260 Are you referencing this every day?

00:12:46.820 I mean, at this point, it's probably internalized for you.

00:12:49.660 But I think any time a man creates something that he's going to live by, there's probably a process by which he actually adopts this into his life, right?

00:12:57.440 For sure.

00:12:58.200 And I just consider it a living document.

00:13:00.400 You hit the nail on the head.

00:13:01.660 It is definitely part of my DNA.

00:13:04.220 I mean, I think most of the things behavior-wise that I was executing or living in my daily life didn't change because I wrote it down.

00:13:12.860 It just gave a little elegance to it, if nothing else.

00:13:16.220 You know, and then it put it down in a set of, in a system in which or a framework that I could reference.

00:13:21.060 So, you know, I don't open up my personal ethos and read it every morning.

00:13:25.180 Although every morning I kind of start my day with a little bit of, you know, getting myself charged up and ready to go and doing some breathing, doing some things to kind of get myself going.

00:13:33.180 And so I think about it and I'm constantly changing my thoughts.

00:13:36.700 I mean, I think we're best if we are adopting new ideas and new concepts and being willing to not die on that hill with everything you believe in.

00:13:45.840 So there's stuff that are non-negotiables that are never coming off.

00:13:50.080 And there's things that I think of and say, you know, I could adjust that.

00:13:52.680 I could rethink this and look at it a different way.

00:13:55.700 So I think it's important to keep it flexible.

00:13:58.280 I mean, all the great documents, you start looking at our, you know, our Bill of Rights, the Constitution, these different things, they're living things that are meant to be amended.

00:14:06.400 How do you find for yourself that balance between this is not negotiable and this I need to expand my horizons, open up my mindset to these other things?

00:14:13.800 Because I think the biggest challenge that we have in doing that is probably our own ego.

00:14:20.260 For sure.

00:14:20.640 Yeah, no, for sure.

00:14:21.920 I think the non-negotiables are the pillar or kind of elemental things, right?

00:14:28.680 The way I'm going to treat my family and think of my family, the way I'm going to value, you know, friendships and what I consider a friendship to be, the character and the makeup of how I'm going to handle myself out in my public life, which, you know, really mirrors my private life.

00:14:46.020 Those things are not particularly negotiable to me.

00:14:48.840 Now, it doesn't mean I'm not going to think of a new way of doing things or if somebody says, hey, you know, the world's changing, let's adopt and adjust with it.

00:14:56.460 At this point, I think, you know, certainly I would assume your followers agree that the world is adjusting too much at too rapid a pace in the social environment to where we're getting away from the things that have worked for a long time and we know are worth following and worth practicing.

00:15:11.720 But, yeah, I think it's a balance.

00:15:13.260 I think it's a balance of saying, hey, there's non-negotiables.

00:15:15.620 But, again, you don't want to be cussed or, right? 0.99

00:15:17.620 You don't want to die on the hill.

00:15:19.360 So you've got to have the ability to say, you know, maybe I do need to reevaluate that stuff.

00:15:23.880 And that's the good stuff in life when you hit those points where you're like, man, I thought for sure I was right about this and I might not be.

00:15:30.540 So let's look at that again.

00:15:32.100 Yeah.

00:15:32.280 I mean, if you are going to die on the hill, you better make sure it's for the right cause, right?

00:15:35.980 A hundred percent.

00:15:36.900 A hundred percent.

00:15:37.380 And I'm glad you said that.

00:15:39.100 There are things worth dying for.

00:15:40.660 I mean, I read a book called Worth Dying For.

00:15:42.920 And so I believe there's things that I'm going to not sacrifice ever.

00:15:46.660 And then those are important to know as well.

00:15:48.420 Yeah.

00:15:48.560 I think we actually had some overlap time in one of your deployments and my sole overseas deployment.

00:15:55.140 I was in Ramadi in 2005, 2006.

00:15:58.360 I think you were there around the same time, right?

00:16:00.260 For sure.

00:16:00.820 For sure.

00:16:01.180 Yeah, my team, that was my summer 2006 deployment with SEAL Team 3.

00:16:07.140 One of our sister task units, Task Unit Bruiser, has become real famous because of Jocko and a couple of those guys.

00:16:12.780 And, you know, one of our teammates jumped on a grenade and won the Medal of Honor and all that good stuff.

00:16:16.400 They were full-time operating Ramadi.

00:16:18.820 My team was in Habanilla, Fallujah.

00:16:20.920 We'd bridge over to Ramadi and join them for dual hits and things like that.

00:16:24.640 But, yeah, we were definitely in the same dust and mud in the same time.

00:16:27.660 Yeah.

00:16:28.020 Yeah.

00:16:28.220 We've had Jocko on the podcast.

00:16:29.700 Leif's been on the podcast, so we've talked with them.

00:16:32.580 Now, was Active Valor based on those events in Habanilla?

00:16:37.840 It spread across kind of our entire history.

00:16:40.620 We didn't single point any one team, unit, or deployment.

00:16:45.400 We just wanted to pay homage to pillar events or really well-known events kind of in the modern era of warfare.

00:16:51.000 So, you know, certainly somebody jumping on a grenade, that was a nod to Mikey.

00:16:56.060 And, you know, we had Chief Day, one of our SEAL chiefs, got shot 27 times, shot four guys in the room, and walked to the helicopter.

00:17:04.580 So we put that in.

00:17:05.620 So we had a bunch of different things that took place.

00:17:08.620 The reason it was called Active Valor is every individual act in the movie was ripped from our history.

00:17:15.080 We just tried to do it in a geopolitical threat scenario that made sense for a movie.

00:17:20.020 But, yeah, that's the way it was kind of put together.

00:17:23.300 Yeah, I mean, I've seen the movie.

00:17:24.680 It's just been a while.

00:17:25.440 So that gives me a new framework.

00:17:26.640 I'll have to go back and watch it again because I remember enjoying the movie.

00:17:29.420 And certainly it gives you a more – a small taste of the cost of freedom and liberty and some of the heroic actions you and your team have performed.

00:17:38.400 No, and, you know, we're all in it together.

00:17:40.380 I mean, I think the interesting thing about being in the military is – and I'm sure you've had this experience.

00:17:44.960 I'll run into somebody on the street kind of in my post-military life and find out they're a veteran.

00:17:49.820 We start talking and, you know, often it comes out who is who and who is where.

00:17:53.580 And they're like, oh, well, you know, I didn't do anything like you did.

00:17:55.700 And I'm like, you know, it doesn't work that way, man.

00:17:57.520 I mean, if you were a cook on the chow line, I don't get to hit targets on an empty stomach.

00:18:02.800 If you're somebody that works as a mechanic, I don't get to hit targets if my trucks aren't running.

00:18:06.720 And I don't know how to turn wrenches on that stuff.

00:18:08.320 I really don't see a tremendous disparity between, you know, the elite forces that are maybe at the tip of the spear hitting targets

00:18:15.480 and those that are in the rear making it happen.

00:18:17.180 If any one of those pieces of that cog goes down, we don't get to do our job.

00:18:21.540 And I feel that very sincerely.

00:18:23.200 So, yeah, it's been fun being part of that greater context and recognizing that everybody plays a tremendous role in the fight.

00:18:30.820 And I kind of thought that way as an officer.

00:18:32.600 I mean, the fact of the matter is I got very lucky to be on – and, you know, you'll understand this –

00:18:36.400 I was on very violent, aggressive deployments doing what I wanted to do.

00:18:40.560 But it wasn't my job to shoot at bad guys. 0.84

00:18:42.720 I got to shoot at plenty of bad guys and I put bad guys down.

00:18:45.940 But my guys did a lot more than that.

00:18:48.080 And I always took tremendous satisfaction in that happening and saying, you know, their kills or their successes were mine as well.

00:18:53.940 I was leading that group.

00:18:55.660 And you need that person to kind of, you know, organize those energies and move them forward.

00:19:00.280 And so we're all on the same team.

00:19:02.380 You know, it's a special thing.

00:19:03.780 Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that perspective because I think all too often with leaders, they think it's all got to be on them or they think they're above the team or above the other moving parts of the organization.

00:19:13.740 And it sounds like you're not – I think this is probably the reason that you're a successful leader.

00:19:18.440 But I really would like to hear about some of your foundational leadership principles when it comes to leading teams effectively and how to rally guys around a common cause or mission.

00:19:29.640 Yeah.

00:19:30.060 I mean, it's – you know, there's been – I mean, if you go to the leadership section of Barnes & Noble, man, you got, you know, several rows of books to pull from, right?

00:19:37.300 And the funny thing is if you closed your eyes and grabbed 10 books randomly from those blindfolded, you'd find tremendous crossover in these principles.

00:19:46.380 We know you, you know, you have to set the example and can't, you know, hold somebody to a standard that you're not willing to meet yourself.

00:19:53.200 And I think one of the things that I am growing ever onward as a brand and kind of as a concept is to get a little more tangible.

00:20:01.560 Not only here's the principle that you need to adhere to, but here's how to do it.

00:20:06.300 You know, so many of those books just kind of give the top principle and maybe a story that goes with it.

00:20:10.920 But I think a lot of people then sit there and feel like they're kind of left with an empty toolbox because it didn't say, you know, here's how to actually do that.

00:20:18.500 So you want to set the example.

00:20:20.640 You know, you've got to show up.

00:20:21.660 If you want your team to be there at 6 in the morning, if you're showing up at 6.15, forget it.

00:20:26.040 You're dead in the water.

00:20:26.920 That team's never going to be able to get behind somebody that says, I want you to do this.

00:20:30.720 I'm not willing to do it myself.

00:20:32.500 So that's in some ways the easy stuff.

00:20:35.240 I think the stuff that gets a little harder is we all have very different teams to lead.

00:20:40.300 And I don't think there's any cookie cutter way to do it.

00:20:43.360 You know, I've seen and you've seen this in the military.

00:20:45.740 Certainly, you know, I've seen screaming, maniacal, tyrannical leaders that actually were pretty effective, good leaders.

00:20:52.160 I mean, you might not want to spend a lot of time around them, but they got results and got the job done.

00:20:56.200 I've also seen quiet, cerebral, very, you know, strategic level thinkers that made it work.

00:21:02.700 And I saw both those same personality traits absolutely fall apart and be disastrous, right?

00:21:07.480 So there isn't a, hey, you have to do this.

00:21:09.920 I think what we need to figure out as leaders is what is your style?

00:21:14.580 What is your methodology or, you know, personality?

00:21:17.900 And then let's let's build your leadership skill set around that.

00:21:21.940 I mean, I just think if a person that's a screamer is probably not going to do real well whispering and somebody that likes to whisper ain't going to do real well screaming.

00:21:29.660 So we've got to find how you come to the table and come to the fight and then make that work within systems that we know are, you know, kind of like the ethos non-negotiable.

00:21:39.960 I mean, my sense is I looked at three kind of pillar things that I did when it came to leadership.

00:21:46.300 One, I put tremendous value on judgment.

00:21:49.760 I think character is the thing that always gets talked about.

00:21:52.520 I'm huge into character.

00:21:54.480 I mean, if you don't have it, you're going to get nowhere.

00:21:57.340 You might as well keep your horse in the stall.

00:21:59.440 You're probably not going anywhere.

00:22:00.820 But let's put character aside and say when it comes to make an actual decision on the battlefield, you know, if you told me I got a man, a high character with poor judgment,

00:22:09.180 and I had a man of questionable character with great judgment, if I'm going in a gunfight, I'm taking great judgment and questionable character every day of the fight.

00:22:17.640 Sure. It depends on the mission, of course.

00:22:19.460 Yeah, that person is going to make good decisions that's going to get me home at night, you know.

00:22:23.240 So the idea of judgment, which is really just exercising your skill set in whatever your battlefield looks like and seeing, hey, can I make good decisions and the right decisions to win the day or win the cause more often than not?

00:22:36.940 My judgment is where it needs to be, and let me execute that more often and trust myself to do so.

00:22:42.780 There's this concept I have in my mind that I can't come up with a better word than equality.

00:22:47.100 And what I mean by that is my guys always knew I was in charge.

00:22:51.340 I mean, I don't think there was ever a question when you came into a unit that I ran, they'd be like, oh, you know, who in this room is actually calling the shots?

00:22:57.620 I think that will be pretty quickly understood and known that I'm going to be one making the call.

00:23:04.180 That being said, I never made my guys feel like they worked for me.

00:23:08.540 I tried to ensure they knew I worked for them, that the higher I went up the chain of command, the higher I went up the flagpole, the more in service to those folks I was.

00:23:18.260 So if you do that, if people know you're working on their behalf, your efforts and energy and sweat and the labors you put on your back are based on them, you're off to the races.

00:23:28.100 That's somebody anybody can get behind and want to follow.

00:23:31.400 And then the final is trust.

00:23:33.140 So, you know, just developing a level of trust that you're willing to make the call, you're willing to make the decisions that are going to affect the outcome of the team, but they trust you that you're obviously going to have their and the organization and missing focus in line in such a way that everybody wins.

00:23:49.520 So, you know, judgment, equality and trust are three of those things that I kind of always kept as DNA level parts of my leadership journey, I guess.

00:23:57.820 I was watching a video in preparation for our conversation today, and I think somebody had mentioned about you, they were talking about you, that you are a natural born leader.

00:24:08.240 And I'm really curious on your perspective on that.

00:24:10.080 Do you believe that's true?

00:24:11.320 Like, where are you coming from with regards to that statement?

00:24:14.100 Yeah, I think it's a little bit of art and science both.

00:24:17.540 I don't ever want to duck a question, you know, and I think sometimes the 50-50 is a little bit of a cop out, but I sort of believe it's true in this regard. 0.99

00:24:24.900 My percentages are probably off, but I think no question you can develop, learn, and kind of go pursue leadership skill set, traits, experiences that are going to help you become a better leader.

00:24:39.320 I do think there is a born, you know, genetic or bloodline trait that shows itself in certain leaders.

00:24:47.140 I mean, I just think that's undeniable.

00:24:48.920 I mean, we know this from playgrounds and watching kids.

00:24:52.380 You'll see a kid that all of a sudden has rallied every other kid on the playground to go do something.

00:24:56.640 You're like, why is that the case?

00:24:57.840 I mean, nobody taught that kid to be a leader.

00:25:00.660 They just kind of have it.

00:25:01.820 My eldest daughter has it.

00:25:03.520 I mean, I watch her on a playground, and it is insane.

00:25:06.840 I mean, she can just rally people around a cause and get people to do things that they probably wouldn't have done otherwise. 0.92

00:25:12.400 My background was mostly in sports, you know, aggressive sports growing up, playing contact sports and, you know, fighting and playing rough.

00:25:19.400 And I think, you know, I almost always ended up being the captain of the team.

00:25:23.380 A lot of times it has to do with performance.

00:25:25.280 A lot of times the best player on the team ends up being the captain.

00:25:28.340 You know, that certainly wasn't always the case, but I had a few spots where that was the case.

00:25:32.240 But I think I always just naturally fell into a leadership position.

00:25:35.840 I think one of the reasons that was the case is I'm totally comfortable with throwing the book out and not playing by the rules to win in fights and do things.

00:25:43.440 At the same time, on the most basic level, I'm pretty good at just holding the line and upholding the standard.

00:25:50.280 So, you know, if you're in basic training, they expect you to be up at this hour, be shaved, have your boots polished, make sure your belt buckle's ready.

00:25:57.340 Like, I was just good at doing that.

00:25:59.040 I was good at following those instructions.

00:26:00.840 And so rarely did I get the ire of the instructors or the people in your team.

00:26:05.440 They're like, great job, Jimmy.

00:26:06.920 You just screwed it up and now we're all going to pay the man because I usually wasn't that guy.

00:26:12.760 So that helps.

00:26:14.080 And then I think I was always willing to just kind of take the heat, right?

00:26:17.860 Like I want to just be like, hey, I kind of want to be in charge.

00:26:20.760 I'm happy if that burns me more than other people and kind of taking that abuse.

00:26:24.720 So I kind of always gravitated towards leadership positions.

00:26:27.700 And I think I've worked exceedingly hard both through practice and emulating leaders that I respected.

00:26:33.740 And I love literature and history and I immerse myself in that.

00:26:36.940 And, you know, you can take tremendous lessons out of what Caesar did right and what Caesar did wrong.

00:26:41.200 And if you apply some of that or metabolize some of that, you know, it's going to help you on that path.

00:26:45.900 So I think it's a little bit of both.

00:26:47.320 I think there are people that have that X factor and that's very hard to teach.

00:26:51.360 And then there's people that develop all the skills that go with that.

00:26:54.460 I think if you got both, you're in good shape to be an effective leader.

00:26:57.980 Yeah, I really like how you talked about being willing to take the heat, right?

00:27:01.140 I mean, I think leaders naturally are a little bit gluttonous for punishment, right?

00:27:06.020 I mean, they're OK with that.

00:27:07.480 And I think any quote unquote leader who isn't OK with that probably isn't really a leader to begin with.

00:27:14.140 No, look, it's easy to take pot shots at this gal. 1.00

00:27:16.780 And I don't like getting in the political space because it's just bad conversations.

00:27:19.900 But, you know, you look at Hillary Clinton at this point, we're now a year beyond the point that she lost.

00:27:25.760 And she has yet to realize, and I think she would pass a lie detector test, yet to realize that there is only one person to blame for losing that election.

00:27:36.000 And that's looking you in the mirror, right?

00:27:38.060 It didn't have anything else to nobody.

00:27:40.000 I mean, you could talk about what Comey did and these different like peaks and valleys of the political landscape and people's feelings.

00:27:47.600 But I haven't seen a leader worth their salt that when they failed, they didn't just raise their hand and be like, that's on me.

00:27:54.360 I failed.

00:27:55.080 It is what it is.

00:27:55.960 And also the good leaders that when they win, give all the credit to their troops, right?

00:28:00.760 Yeah.

00:28:01.280 Like something good happened.

00:28:02.440 It's like, dude, my boys killed it or my gals did a great job today.

00:28:06.140 The great leaders, you know, when it goes well, they just get out of the way and say, look at how my people shine.

00:28:10.720 And then when the you know what's hitting the fan, they're like, that's on me.

00:28:14.140 That's on me.

00:28:15.060 Without question.

00:28:15.800 The good leaders want the heat.

00:28:17.120 They want the burden on their shoulders and they'll take the spoils. 0.94

00:28:20.900 Yeah.

00:28:21.280 Either way, good or bad.

00:28:22.540 Yeah.

00:28:22.640 I mean, I think it's as evident as just watching a professional football game.

00:28:26.180 You know, you see the guy score the touchdown and does he run back to his team or does he run away from his team and celebrate versus the guy that says, hey, good job to my line.

00:28:33.380 Good job to blocking.

00:28:34.180 Good job to receivers and celebrates with the team.

00:28:36.740 It's like a Dick and Jane book.

00:28:38.140 When you see those people, you're like, man, look at you.

00:28:40.260 You're the guy that you want to be on that team.

00:28:42.280 And, you know, then you see the guy that's the toxic, you know, superstar that's always going to be about him.

00:28:47.360 And they usually just absolutely erode a team.

00:28:51.240 Yeah.

00:28:51.340 I grew up in Niner country in the era of, you know, Montana and Jerry Rice and all those great teams.

00:28:57.680 And that team was just a team, man.

00:28:59.560 Now you see it in this area with the Patriots.

00:29:01.280 I mean, love them, hate them or whatever.

00:29:03.140 That team is absolutely bought in that no one person is more important than the other.

00:29:08.680 We're going to do this together and let's go win the day.

00:29:11.460 It's incredible.

00:29:11.900 And you can see what kind of results it produces.

00:29:14.260 I remember when I was younger, all of my lock combinations were either like 49-16 for Joe Montana or 49-80 for Rice and 16-80.

00:29:22.480 That's all they were.

00:29:23.340 Yeah, man.

00:29:24.060 Yeah.

00:29:24.480 Did I read this right?

00:29:25.300 Are you Ranger qualified as well?

00:29:27.020 I am.

00:29:27.580 Yeah.

00:29:27.740 When I finished SEAL training, I got sent to the East Coast.

00:29:30.980 I was an East Coast SEAL to start back SEAL Team 4.

00:29:33.820 When I showed up my SEAL team before I'd actually even earned my Trident because in that area, you finished BUDS basic SEAL training.

00:29:40.240 You went to your team.

00:29:41.360 You had to be on probation for about six, eight months.

00:29:44.040 They wanted to feel you out and see if you were going to be able to do the job, and then you'd earn your BUDS, your Trident, you know, that makes you an actual SEAL.

00:29:50.780 And when I showed up my team, my commanding officer had just left JSOC, Joint Special Operations Command, which is all those top-tier units together.

00:29:58.800 And he just said, look, if I'm going to have a junior officer on my team, I want them to go speak Army because in that era, pre-9-11, Army dominated everything.

00:30:06.960 They dominated all of special operations, all of main force engagements around the world.

00:30:11.360 And so most of Special Operations Command, all the senior staff positions were Army generals or Command Sergeant Majors.

00:30:18.600 And so he sent all of us junior officers of that team to Ranger School.

00:30:22.320 So, yeah, I knocked out Ranger School.

00:30:24.120 I crushed it mostly based on fear because I was the only guy that went down there that didn't have his trident at that point.

00:30:31.300 So I was like, well, if I screw this up, I'm probably not going to become a frog man.

00:30:35.260 So I went all out, and I feel very lucky to have done it.

00:30:39.160 It was great to get that experience.

00:30:40.500 I love that school.

00:30:41.460 I still have buddies that I obviously went through that with, and it was a neat part of my career.

00:30:45.220 Yeah, I mean, you've got a really interesting and unique perspective seeing both sides of this thing.

00:30:49.580 How do they differ from your perspective?

00:30:52.080 Yeah, they're definitely apples and oranges.

00:30:54.320 I mean, there's a lot of, you know, fundamental things that are, of course, the same, the discipline and the suffering and the focus.

00:30:59.280 They just do it in different ways, and they get at that breakdown process and that suffer process in different ways.

00:31:05.100 SEAL training is, you know, six months to a year to get through.

00:31:07.880 And the physical nature of that, and I mean the true raw, like, PT aspect, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups, runs, logs on your head, boats on your head, I don't think it has an equivalent.

00:31:19.040 I don't say that to be arrogant.

00:31:20.440 You know, I think you can sense I don't have that built into who I am, thinking better or worse.

00:31:25.060 But that level, like just the raw numbers of physical capacity for work, I've never seen anything that even approaches SEAL training.

00:31:33.580 Now, at ranger school, they get heavy packs on your back.

00:31:36.960 They don't give you any food.

00:31:38.980 So starving and kind of misery of suffering with trudging type stuff is their secret sauce. 1.00

00:31:45.140 And don't get me wrong, it's horrible, you know, and you've done that.

00:31:48.440 If you're a Marine or you're an Army folk, you know a little something about putting a ruck on your back and just, you know, working your way up a ridge line.

00:31:56.040 So I loved them both.

00:31:57.720 They just had different methodologies to kind of get to the same place.

00:32:00.740 The thing I liked about ranger school is I think ranger school gets this connotation of being this, you know, because all infantry officers go there.

00:32:08.560 It's kind of this officer leadership school.

00:32:10.700 It's made for the squad leader, right?

00:32:12.440 It's made for that young E3 to E5 that's going to go out and run four to eight guys on the battlefield.

00:32:19.040 And are you going to be the type of person that can step up and make a decision and lead that group to the ranger objective and get the job done?

00:32:25.640 So I kind of love that basic level leadership and basic soldiering skills.

00:32:30.700 So I enjoyed it.

00:32:32.060 And that's how they differ.

00:32:33.040 I mean, the advanced nature of what we do in the SEAL teams isn't really as advanced as people think.

00:32:37.900 I mean, some of my guys might cringe hearing that.

00:32:39.760 But I think when people look at Delta and Team 6 and these top teams, if you want to know what makes them special, they do the basics better than anybody else in the world.

00:32:49.120 That's it.

00:32:49.960 They got some cool gear.

00:32:51.360 Everybody thinks it's some tactic that nobody else knows.

00:32:53.940 It's not.

00:32:54.780 It's just they move, shoot, and communicate better than anybody else.

00:32:57.780 I mean, I think that's so easy to overlook.

00:32:59.580 We think that somehow these people are miraculous or they have some God-given talent that nobody else possesses.

00:33:06.340 And in all reality, they just do, like you said, they do the simple things very, very well.

00:33:12.240 Yeah.

00:33:12.520 No, none of those guys finish a day of work there and then go drive home to Mount Olympus.

00:33:17.160 That's not where they live.

00:33:18.160 They live right next to you and me, and they just do the basics really well, and they will not accept mediocrity.

00:33:24.220 They will push until they can get it right at the highest levels.

00:33:26.960 That went in, and you know this from the combat theater.

00:33:29.900 I mean, I've talked about this a lot, and I think people have really connected with this.

00:33:33.600 I think people think, you know, you rise to the occasion.

00:33:37.020 I think what you do is you degrade your train, right?

00:33:39.840 You don't rise to the moment.

00:33:41.380 You usually fall back to what you've trained to do.

00:33:45.060 Now, I think you'll rise to the level of your peers, so that's an important distinction.

00:33:49.360 You'll rise to the people you spend time with.

00:33:51.820 When I talk to young people, I'm like, hey, and my kiddos more than anybody, I'm like, choose your friends wisely.

00:33:57.420 Choose the people you spend time with wisely because you are going to basically become an average level of their behavior, their traits, their beliefs, and their performance.

00:34:07.040 So you surround yourself with good people.

00:34:08.800 You're going to perform at a high level.

00:34:10.020 They're going to challenge you. 0.90

00:34:10.840 You surround yourself with knuckleheads. 0.99

00:34:12.760 You're pretty much going to be a knucklehead. 0.99

00:34:14.320 That's for sure. 0.99

00:34:14.940 Let's do it.

00:34:44.940 And between that and the leadership team development that we have going on, the camaraderie, the brotherhood with 25 other men, you are going to walk away equipped with a new set of skills, resources, tools, all designed to help you level up as a husband, a father, and a man in general.

00:35:03.520 So again, guys, really quickly, really brief on that.

00:35:06.040 Again, we only have a few spots remaining.

00:35:07.760 This is the last time you're going to hear me talk about it because we're probably going to sell out of it this week.

00:35:11.620 So if you are interested and want to know a little bit more, check it out at orderofman.com slash uprising.

00:35:17.500 Again, orderofman.com slash uprising.

00:35:20.120 I hope to see you there.

00:35:20.980 Now let's get back into the remainder of my conversation with Rourke.

00:35:24.820 Well, I want to go back to a word that you used a couple of times just in the last couple of minutes here.

00:35:28.500 And then I saw this word several times on your site as well.

00:35:30.880 And that word is suffer.

00:35:32.300 Yeah.

00:35:32.560 And I'm always fascinated when I see some common thread lines or common themes or words throughout the way people communicate.

00:35:39.360 Why is that so valuable to you, that word suffer and the idea of suffering?

00:35:43.400 Yeah.

00:35:43.740 I think in the modern era, the reason I've keyed into it is that we've basically, as a culture at large, I feel like, designed a life in which you can insulate yourself almost totally to not suffer.

00:35:56.280 You can be in a static environment from your house to your car to the place you're going where the temperature is right.

00:36:02.800 You're comfortable physically.

00:36:04.140 You're not going to push yourself unless you have to.

00:36:06.180 And rarely does life ask that.

00:36:08.040 I mean, it does it more than you realize.

00:36:09.660 But, you know, in general, we've just like insulated ourselves from suffering.

00:36:13.760 And I think culturally we are seeing the negative manifestations of that protectionist kind of way of doing things.

00:36:20.780 I think we know on just a cellular level that, you know, if I want to get strong, I can make myself strong by doing repeated things that hurt, right?

00:36:30.840 Like I lift heavy stuff off the ground multiple times.

00:36:34.300 I'm going to damage muscle tissue.

00:36:36.260 And then that tissue is going to come together, fix itself, make it bigger and stronger.

00:36:40.860 And, oh, lo and behold, a certain amount of time afterwards, you got biceps.

00:36:45.180 Awesome.

00:36:45.740 So, like, that's something you can control.

00:36:47.520 And I think everything that we do in life, you know, you have some value or some, like, mathematical percentage you give to it in how valuable it is to your experience.

00:36:57.720 And I've got a buddy, my buddy Stephen Ranella, who has this TV show called The Meteor.

00:37:01.800 He's a world-class hunter.

00:37:03.400 Meat eater is the name of the show.

00:37:04.880 Great dude.

00:37:05.860 But he's got this great analogy where he's like, you know, as a kid, like, you go ride a roller coaster.

00:37:11.620 That 30 seconds is super fun.

00:37:13.640 But, like, 20 years from now, you're not going to be talking about how great that roller coaster was because it was one of those things you didn't earn any of the excitement of that moment.

00:37:21.940 But if you went to, like, summer camp and they made you, like, do some crucible on the last day where you go out in the woods at night and you're scared, you know, down to your core and you're uncomfortable and then you come in, you're going to remember that moment because it sucked.

00:37:34.940 And we remember the things that suck and hurt.

00:37:37.860 So we're going to keep talking about this beyond this podcast, you and I, but I'm kind of creating some suffer experiences that I'm going to unleash on the world and folks that want to come get them because that's where the growth is.

00:37:49.200 You know, when you're uncomfortable and things are hard, that's usually where I find out what you're made of, how you're going to react to that.

00:37:56.360 And in my mind, I see it all as almost like getting an inoculation to be tougher for when the hard thing comes, right?

00:38:03.860 I mean, being SEALs and being warriors, you know, yourself included, it's like we've moved the needle on what we can handle in life.

00:38:10.780 Like when things hit me, I'm like, whatever, man, I've seen plenty of tougher things than this.

00:38:15.680 I'm going to just fight through it.

00:38:17.360 And so whatever gets thrown at me, I've made a practice of being uncomfortable so I can handle it.

00:38:23.580 And I think a lot of people are so removed from that, man, I worry for them when things get tough, they're going to crumble.

00:38:30.860 They're going to crumble.

00:38:31.440 I mean, we see it time and time again where people just, like you said, they crumble, they wilt at the smallest sign of adversity and any little struggle.

00:38:38.880 And it's like, really, this is what's derailing you right now?

00:38:42.100 It's because they're not used to harder things.

00:38:44.000 It's scary.

00:38:44.700 Yeah, it's scary.

00:38:45.420 And so we need to get back to that.

00:38:46.920 I mean, I look at, you know, my kids are going through elementary school right now.

00:38:50.740 And I'm like, geez, I feel like I got to create multiple programs here for the kid level to just make things hard because they're never going to grow, get tough.

00:38:58.360 You know what I mean?

00:38:59.020 We're killing our boys. 0.98

00:39:00.140 I mean, some boy just is being a boy. 0.99

00:39:02.260 He wants to whack a stick into a wall or something like that.

00:39:04.420 And all of a sudden we're, you know, nuking them up on drugs and Ritalin and trying to take that out of them.

00:39:09.280 That's bad.

00:39:10.020 And then girls, you know, if they get in a fight, teachers and everybody just want to make it right.

00:39:13.820 I'm like, no, you don't need to make it right.

00:39:15.720 They'll work it out.

00:39:16.800 They're making it right right now in their own way.

00:39:18.960 That's right.

00:39:19.620 So, yeah, no, we're hurting ourselves.

00:39:21.520 And I think there's a thirst for it.

00:39:23.520 I'm sure you're seeing it with your following.

00:39:25.640 But beyond it, you know, I'm doing these, I'm sure we'll talk about these campfires, but I'm going to grow that into more of an experience, whether that's a multi-day or a several-day experience where folks can come and get uncomfortable.

00:39:38.740 You know, get to a spot, but we're going to do stuff that's not going to just crush everybody.

00:39:41.820 I know everybody doesn't want to do SEAL training, but we're going to do some stuff that's going to get you well out of your comfort zone.

00:39:47.320 And I just know those are going to be pillar-type events that somebody can look at as a waypoint and be like, well, you know, I got through that suffer session with Denver.

00:39:56.920 I could probably handle the week schedule that's coming up.

00:39:59.840 I could probably deal with my grocery list.

00:40:03.220 Well, I'm excited to hear what you have going on.

00:40:05.240 Obviously, you've got your campfires that you talked about, but I'm excited for those events.

00:40:08.320 Last time somebody talked about an event like that, I inadvertently signed up for a 60-hour endurance event with Joe DeSena with Spartan Races, and it was miserable.

00:40:17.140 But like you said, you know, it was something that defined me in a small way and created a new framework.

00:40:22.360 I think about that with basic training and playing football in high school.

00:40:26.300 I think about that with my time in the service and serving overseas.

00:40:29.820 I thought about that with that event.

00:40:31.060 So when you get that online or offline, I should say, I'm really interested in participating for sure.

00:40:36.700 No, we'll definitely keep talking about it.

00:40:38.840 And that's why I think you're seeing the adventure races and obstacle course races just explode, right, is because people are, man, I mean, the most, you know, even those people, a lot of them were, you know, running 5Ks or maybe they did a triathlon.

00:40:51.620 And, you know, I'm not taking away from triathlon.

00:40:53.440 You go hard enough on a triathlon, you can hurt yourself quick.

00:40:56.280 But I think people are saying, God, there's something more.

00:40:59.340 And the brilliance of the Tough Mudder and the Spartan Races and all those things is that, you know, you'll see elite athletes there getting after it that are CrossFitters and going, you know, just completely balls out.

00:41:09.680 And then you'll see like a couple of frat boys are like, dude, we got a couple extra pounds too much on us.

00:41:13.620 Let's go knock this thing out. 0.94

00:41:14.920 And they go have fun too, you know.

00:41:16.680 So there's – I think people are seeing there is merit in it.

00:41:20.620 And, you know, if we can get more people to do that, I think they will be getting off the couch and be like, you know what, I can do a little better than the average.

00:41:27.580 Yeah, definitely.

00:41:28.700 Well, one of the other themes that I see running across everything that you've talked about and, of course, on your site and stuff as well is this idea of an ecosystem or culture.

00:41:38.580 Can you walk me through what you mean when you talk about the ecosystem?

00:41:41.900 Yeah, I mean I think culture is going to be a much bigger part of my Ever Onward kind of community or tribe that I'm going to try and grow.

00:41:49.760 And I'm sure it's a big part of your tribe.

00:41:53.080 I mean I think when you share a cultural connection to one another and that can be – you know, you'd love to say that America's culture – I mean I still think we're phenomenal and an outlier in the world.

00:42:03.800 I think we're hurting ourselves.

00:42:05.220 I mean the only thing that's going to wreck this country is ourselves.

00:42:07.560 We're going to do it to ourselves by dividing each other and fighting over things that are really small things as opposed to big things.

00:42:13.760 But I think, you know, the beauty of being in the military, particularly being in an elite unit – but I mean I think every unit enjoys this – is you have this – a lot of people think it's a bad word.

00:42:23.280 But I enjoyed it was the idea of subjugating myself to something bigger than me, right?

00:42:29.920 Like the culture and what we believe in, those ethos that we look at and kind of break down and hopefully adhere to, they're important.

00:42:37.720 And when you're connected to that, you feel it.

00:42:40.080 You feel like you're part of a brotherhood or a sisterhood or a group of folks who have shared vision, shared value, shared ideals that then you feel like you're home, right?

00:42:50.680 I mean I was an athlete my entire life.

00:42:52.820 I never understood why everybody didn't run as hard as I ran in every practice.

00:42:57.280 Like it really bothered me.

00:42:58.360 I'm like why am I the only person that goes max out every time all the time?

00:43:03.360 And when I got to the SEAL teams, I was like here we go.

00:43:05.440 Now I'm with a bunch of people that are going to run hard and go hard no matter what because that's who they are on a very basic level.

00:43:12.580 And so I think culture is what we got to attack.

00:43:15.760 I mean I think right now the current political conversation, right, is that we have a gun problem.

00:43:19.840 And wherever people break out on this, I'm not going to get into two-way arguments or anything like that.

00:43:24.880 We don't have a gun problem.

00:43:26.460 We have a culture problem.

00:43:28.320 I mean the gun is an inanimate object.

00:43:30.060 So I mean we can talk about how capable a weapon system is and should that be in civilian hands or not.

00:43:34.860 No gun ever jumped up and started shooting kids.

00:43:37.440 It's a kid that probably don't have parents that are taking care of them or mostly it's boys.

00:43:42.300 So I'm just going to talk in that context or living on violent video games and being bullied at school.

00:43:47.580 And they snap and then they go do horrible things.

00:43:50.280 We have a culture issue.

00:43:51.520 We have a parenting issue.

00:43:52.600 We don't have a gun problem.

00:43:53.880 We got to attack the culture. 0.99

00:43:55.100 So I think when I talk about the ecosystem and the culture, I want to create this ethos or kind of share with companies and organizations and then just individuals a way of looking at the world and a way of looking at it in kind of some of these pillar concepts that can help you make decisions and give you a lens through which to look on everything you do.

00:44:16.840 I mean I feel like if you have an ethos, it creates this lens that if you look through it, does what I'm going to do next fall into that lens, right?

00:44:26.280 Like when I look through it to this, is it going to still keep me in the position I want to be in?

00:44:30.840 So when I'm making business decisions, it's through the lens of is this good for Everon or is this good for the tribe of people I want to be connected to?

00:44:38.680 And so I just think culture is a huge thing and I got more to come on that for sure.

00:44:42.360 Yeah, I mean this is powerful and obviously we could talk more about this and we are.

00:44:46.340 We're going to talk more about it in our Brotherhood, the Iron Council.

00:44:48.580 We talked a little bit about that.

00:44:50.060 But for the sake of this podcast, we are snugging up against time.

00:44:53.280 I want to ask you some additional questions as we wind things down here.

00:44:56.000 And the first one is what does it mean to be a man?

00:44:59.020 You know, it's funny.

00:44:59.800 I think – funny is not the right word.

00:45:02.040 But I think a lot of people are trying to figure out how to find things and I get that.

00:45:06.520 I mean I think definitions are important.

00:45:08.180 I mean I think the interesting thing about being a man is we can look at a lot of different – I don't know – constructs for what it means to be a man.

00:45:18.160 But I kind of look at it in the simplest terms because I think when you break it down, it looks very simple.

00:45:22.320 So if I think of what's the ultimate realization of a man, I would think of it as a classic gentleman, right?

00:45:29.520 The word gentleman is powerful to me.

00:45:31.980 And if we're looking at like the basic definition of gentleman and dexterity – now somebody is going to write in and tweet that I got it wrong.

00:45:38.260 But basically is a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man, right?

00:45:43.360 So let's just talk about chivalry, courtesy, and honor.

00:45:46.460 I mean if you executed those three things in your life, you don't have a whole lot of problems as to who you're going to be as a man.

00:45:52.760 Oh, you're going to screw some things up on Tuesday for sure.

00:45:55.220 But if you look at chivalry, which in my mind means believing in something bigger than yourself and fighting for those ideals, that's a good place to be.

00:46:03.920 If we're looking at courtesy, now you're taking the time to think of others, the way you treat others, and hopefully it's the way you want to be treated.

00:46:10.900 That's now thinking of your common man or your fellow person.

00:46:14.160 That's a good place to be, and I think that's a pillar.

00:46:16.180 And then if you're talking about honor, now we're into the military and this world that's super – not just the military, but we lived it because it's kind of an everyday thing when you do that.

00:46:27.000 When you start – when I think of honor, I think of terms of kind of living your oath, right?

00:46:32.060 The oaths that you take in this life.

00:46:34.140 Do you live those oaths?

00:46:36.060 And we know a lot of people don't.

00:46:37.840 I mean a lot of people take the oath of marriage, and they're not living up to those ideals, which we know to be part of that.

00:46:43.100 People make an oath, in my mind, if they become a parent, or they make an oath if they become a teacher or a mentor or a coach or a pastor or whatever that is.

00:46:51.400 If you're not living your oath, you're not living up to being an honorable person, and we can have myriads of definition of what that means.

00:47:00.340 So I guess for me, if I answer what it means to be a man, it means to be a gentleman, which would be a chivalrous, courteous, and honorable person.

00:47:06.780 Man, I really like that.

00:47:07.800 I've had 150 people answer that question, and that is by far one of my favorite definitions or explanations.

00:47:15.200 That's really, really powerful.

00:47:16.480 Oh, I love it, man.

00:47:17.700 I love it.

00:47:18.160 Yeah, you bet.

00:47:19.060 Well, how do we connect with you?

00:47:20.300 We've got to learn a little bit more about your campfires or Ever Onward, any of the things and the programs you have available.

00:47:24.840 How do we find out about those things?

00:47:26.400 Yeah, I think your – I mean I think your following is going to love it.

00:47:29.320 But RourkeDenver.com is my new website.

00:47:31.800 That's where my Ever Onward brand lives.

00:47:34.300 So if you go to RourkeDenver.com, I've got the Ethos stuff on there.

00:47:38.600 I've got bio stuff that's interesting.

00:47:40.420 A lot more to come on that site with content and leadership axioms.

00:47:44.900 It also has some of those business offerings and personal offerings that I'm starting to spin up.

00:47:49.640 The first of those is what you mentioned, the campfire sessions.

00:47:52.600 I'm super excited about this.

00:47:54.660 People that have followed me, I do a lot of corporate speaking events.

00:47:58.040 I've had a bunch of people reach out and say, hey, I'm not going to get to come to the event that IBM or Google just booked you for.

00:48:04.580 How do I see you?

00:48:05.340 So I wanted to create a vehicle through which I could get more people access to me and what I think of and believe of.

00:48:11.700 So if you go on my site, you can sign up for these campfire sessions.

00:48:15.300 I charge for them because I want people to buy in.

00:48:17.880 I mean I know that sounds like the cheesy way of saying it.

00:48:20.520 It doesn't hurt my feelings that I'd make money off it.

00:48:22.760 But I want people to buy in and take some ownership because so much of what we do in this world content-wise is free.

00:48:30.520 And that's fine.

00:48:31.400 But I think when you do that, it was fun.

00:48:33.620 I had something like a couple hundred people sign up for the first one and I had a couple hundred people attend.

00:48:38.560 And you're like, you know, you can blow off a lot of things because you can go get it any time.

00:48:42.740 These are set.

00:48:43.520 I have a calendar and my next one is May 6th.

00:48:45.780 And basically what it is, you'll sign up, we'll give you the information on how to get on the live stream, and it's going to be me sitting at a campfire.

00:48:53.200 There's premium seats.

00:48:54.140 You can pay a little more and actually come physically be at the campfire with me.

00:48:57.640 But what I learned from the first one is I'm going to tell, you know, kind of a leadership or a gunfighting story or some story from my background that I think has a learning principle connected to it.

00:49:08.020 And the thing I took away from the last one that I really liked was to just get the interaction with the folks.

00:49:13.100 So I pulled questions that people submitted in advance.

00:49:16.700 I did live questions around the campfire and then I did live questions with folks that were attending the campfire.

00:49:23.460 And you can ask me anything.

00:49:24.960 I don't duck questions.

00:49:26.180 I mean, I can only get so many answers in the period of time.

00:49:28.220 We went about an hour and a half, which I thought was a sweet spot of time.

00:49:31.980 And so the construct right now is May 6th.

00:49:33.960 And I got two more this year that you can sign up for.

00:49:36.200 You can do an individual one.

00:49:37.800 You can buy the lump of them.

00:49:39.480 You know, it's not that expensive.

00:49:40.600 And come join me at those campfires.

00:49:42.100 I'd love to have you there.

00:49:43.020 And I want to grow that tribe.

00:49:44.700 And then I think I'm going to grow this campfire concept in a big way in the coming years.

00:49:49.600 I'm just now scratching the surface, I think, doing some of these primal things like a campfire, which you and I know.

00:49:56.200 I mean, not everybody sat at a campfire and realized that when you're looking at those flames, it turns off all these operating systems in your brain that you don't need.

00:50:04.820 And it lights off these primal kind of caveman systems that you're like, I'm real happy to be warm right now.

00:50:10.840 And I like what that looks like.

00:50:12.300 And it just kind of fosters conversation.

00:50:14.740 So it was real purposeful that I picked the fire concept.

00:50:17.960 And I'm going to try and grow it into a place where I can have campfires going all over this country and get people back to some good things.

00:50:25.080 So that's kind of the first major event.

00:50:27.320 And then I'm going to grow more experience-based stuff as we go.

00:50:30.760 But I want to grow it deliberately and make sure I'm learning as I go and I'm kind of servicing those folks that are going to follow it.

00:50:37.220 So that's me.

00:50:38.840 And you can find all that stuff on rockdenver.com.

00:50:41.860 Right on.

00:50:42.220 We'll link that all up.

00:50:43.300 And I'm certainly going to participate in that.

00:50:44.840 So I'm excited to see what you have going on.

00:50:46.580 I don't stay in touch with every one of my podcast guests, but you're somebody I'm looking forward to continuing a relationship with.

00:50:52.740 And Commander Denver, I just got to tell you, man, I really appreciate your insight.

00:50:56.160 Of course, I appreciate your service to this country and all that you're doing and your insights on the podcast today.

00:51:00.980 So thanks for joining me.

00:51:02.480 No, thanks for having me.

00:51:03.580 I appreciate, brother, your service as well and what you're doing now.

00:51:07.220 I mean, I think this is the way to keep advancing the ball and make this place a better place is if the right people are in the conversation.

00:51:13.320 And we got a whole lot of the wrong people in the national conversation.

00:51:17.020 So if we can crack, if we can crack into it, man, I think we're going to be better for it.

00:51:20.920 Right on.

00:51:21.240 We're getting there.

00:51:21.920 We'll keep going.

00:51:22.840 All right, brother.

00:51:23.460 What is it?

00:51:23.840 Ever onward, right?

00:51:24.840 Ever onward.

00:51:26.660 Gentlemen, there it is.

00:51:27.500 My conversation with the one and only Rourke Denver.

00:51:29.840 I hope that you are walking away with a new perspective, at least just a little bit more uplifted and a little bit more enlightened as to what our responsibility as men is, as leaders, as husbands, as fathers,

00:51:43.660 business owners, community leaders.

00:51:45.220 I know that I walked away with so much from this interview and Rourke and I have been able to maintain contact since our initial conversation.

00:51:52.280 And he's become a friend of mine.

00:51:53.860 And you can see why this guy's very, very powerful.

00:51:56.160 And I'm excited to have him on the show.

00:51:58.360 If you got any value, which I'm sure you did, make sure you connect with me.

00:52:02.660 Make sure you connect with Rourke.

00:52:03.880 Look at what he's up to on his site.

00:52:05.900 Connect with us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever you're doing the social media.

00:52:10.080 And just let us know.

00:52:11.180 Let us know what you thought about the show.

00:52:12.460 And then more specifically, and I ask this every week, let us know what you're taking away from the show.

00:52:17.320 Like what specific actionable steps are you taking away that's going to improve your life?

00:52:23.040 Because it's great to listen to this.

00:52:24.560 It's great to have these conversations.

00:52:26.260 But at the end of the day, if you're not doing anything with it, it's kind of a waste of time.

00:52:32.040 So we want to make sure that you are implementing new ideas and new strategies when you listen to the show.

00:52:36.700 Again, I'm on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.

00:52:40.080 I'm at Ryan Mickler.

00:52:41.340 My last name is M-I-C-H-L-E-R.

00:52:43.360 I'm doing a lot more over there.

00:52:44.480 So if you're on the Order Man Instagram, make sure you switch over to my account, Ryan Mickler.

00:52:49.200 Wherever you are, go ahead and take care of that.

00:52:50.740 And then orderofman.com slash 159 is where you can get the episode show notes for this show.

00:52:56.820 And outside of that, go ahead and take a look at the uprising.

00:52:59.380 Again, it's being held May 3rd through the 6th, 2018.

00:53:02.100 It's a three and a half day immersive experience, retreat, activity, whatever you want to call it,

00:53:08.500 designed to push you, test you, motivate you, inspire you,

00:53:12.100 and then equip you with the tools that you need to thrive in your own life on every capacity,

00:53:16.300 every front that you're working on improving.

00:53:18.920 You can do that at orderofman.com slash uprising.

00:53:22.660 So gentlemen, with that said, and with that interview in the books,

00:53:25.960 I'm glad again that you are joining us, that you are here with us.

00:53:29.260 We need more men in this fight.

00:53:30.460 Please share this episode.

00:53:31.920 Let's grow this thing.

00:53:32.940 Let's really push this thing, grow this movement to a whole new level

00:53:36.740 because there's millions and millions and millions of men who need to hear

00:53:40.300 about what it means to be a man.

00:53:42.360 And then of course, reclaim this idea of masculinity in a society that seems to

00:53:48.160 dismiss it and downplay the importance of us stepping up as men.

00:53:52.440 So again, glad that you're here.

00:53:53.920 Make sure you subscribe.

00:53:54.780 Make sure you share it.

00:53:55.860 I will catch you next week.

00:53:56.940 But until then, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

00:54:01.720 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:54:04.700 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

00:54:08.380 we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.

00:54:11.860 Order of Man, to find out.

00:54:18.120 Thank you.

00:54:18.720 You're at first.

00:54:19.700 You're welcome.

00:54:21.320 And there's always ondergue.

00:54:24.940 You're welcome.

00:54:25.680 You're welcome.

00:54:26.040 But now, I want to be platform.

00:54:27.160 I want to be a member of the Order of Man.

00:54:28.620 You're welcome.

00:54:29.840 You're welcome.

00:54:30.360 You're welcome to be here.

00:54:31.280 This is more of a business trip at the Forever Now,

00:54:34.020 and you're welcome to your這一genommen became.

00:54:36.600 You're welcome.

00:54:37.540 I'll be here to the Labour Order of Man. 0.88

Order of Man - April 03, 2018

159： Embrace the Suffering ｜ Rorke Denver

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript