171： Leading From the Top ｜ Lt. Col. Scott Mann
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Summary
Retired Green Beret Lt. Col. Scott Mann talks about the importance of being a great storyteller, how to play your position well and allow others to do the same, and why leaders need to learn to get out of the way.
Transcript
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Every man will, at some point, be placed in a position of leadership, whether that's in the
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walls of his home, a new project at work, promotion, ecclesiastical services with friends,
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or simply leading himself. And his ability to lead effectively will spell the difference between
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success and failure in any endeavor. Today, I am joined by retired Green Beret Lieutenant
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Colonel Scott Mann to talk about how to be a strong leader. We talk about the importance of
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becoming a great storyteller, how to play your position well, and allow others to do the same
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why leaders need to learn to get out of the way and how you too can lead from the top.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your
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own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily
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deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is
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who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself
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a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and
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founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. This is a podcast, and frankly, it's a movement.
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Guys, it's a movement to reclaim and restore what it means to be a man. So whether you're
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tuning in for the very first time, and I know there's a lot of guys who are tuning in for
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the first time because I've gotten a lot of messages over the past week or two that has
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told me that you have just found this movement. Or if you've been around for three, three and a
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a half years, I want to welcome you. It is my goal to provide you with the tools and
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the guidance and direction and resources. And in this podcast, specifically, the conversations
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with other incredible men who are doing incredible things in their lives and then bringing those
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conversations directly to you so you can take the practical insight, information, and wisdom
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and apply it into your life as a father, a husband, a business leader, a community leader,
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just a better man in general. And that's what we're all about. I've said it before. Society
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seems to at best be dismissing what it means to be a man. And it's my mission and hopefully
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yours as well to reclaim what exactly that means and how we as men show up for our families,
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our businesses, and our communities. I'm going to jump pretty quick into this one. I do want
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to make a quick mention of our show sponsors. I couldn't do it with them and I couldn't do
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it without you, but the show sponsors are Origin Maine. I've been talking about them for the
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really been helpful to have some of these supplements in addition to what I'm doing with
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originmain.com slash order of man, and then use order at checkout. And that's all I have by way of
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announcements today. I have the honor of introducing you, as I said before, to retired
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Green Beret, Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann. This guy is a master at building relationships in
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high stakes and competitive environments. As you might imagine, he spent 23 years in the United
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States army. 18 of those were spent in and as a Green Beret, where he specialized in missions all
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over the world, Columbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, all over. He's also a regular contributor to CNN,
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Fox, Bloomberg, so many others where he shares his insights and experience when it comes to leading
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teams effectively. Obviously, he is a man who's worked in some extremely hostile environments,
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but he's been able to lead missions effectively through his ability to build trust and credibility,
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where most of that has been destroyed. So guys, get your notepads out if you can,
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and you're in the position to do that and get ready to listen into a very effective and strong
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leader, share his insights and how we can become better leaders in our lives.
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Colonel Mann, thank you for joining us on the show today. Glad to have you here.
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Yeah, we got connected through Phil Randazzo with American Dream U, and he's actually been on the show
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before. And I know anybody who is a friend of Phil's and involved in that organization is certainly a
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friend of mine because I know, oh man, he just does a great job connecting with people and finding the
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right people to participate in that movement. So glad you're here.
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Yeah, thanks. And Phil is such a great American. When you think about,
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Ryan, what he's invested in just blood, sweat and tears into that nonprofit to help our warriors
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transition from military service. He is, he's just such a catalyst, such a connector. And he just,
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he puts so much of his heart in it. It's really cool to work with him.
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He is somebody who stands out. So let's talk about this for a second, and then we'll get into
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what I want to talk. And I think we can weave this together here. What do you think it is about
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a man like Phil, who's able to be such a powerful connector and have that drive and
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He serves a purpose so much bigger than himself. If you spend 30 seconds with him,
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you learn very quickly that none of this is about Phil. I mean, he really considers himself a vessel,
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an instrument. He clearly sees a bigger purpose, a bigger outcome. And, you know,
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he just plays his position to do that. The other thing, Ryan, that I think is essential in this day
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and age is he's all about connecting and then getting out of the way. So it's all about human
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connection around the problem set, like he connected you and me. And then he just gets out
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of the way. That kind of catalyst mindset in this day and age, I think is one of the best skills you
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can have in tackling wicked problems. Yeah. I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think
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there's this notion that if somehow I were to share my network with you, that I might be out or
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jeopardizing that network, but that's the furthest thing from the truth. I love being somewhat of a
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hub for making these connections because I really make myself invaluable when I'm connecting two
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people together. I think that's a hundred percent right. You know, even in the book that I wrote,
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Game Changers, about fighting violent extremism in Afghanistan, we frankly learned way too late in
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the war the power of collaboration across agencies, across different parts of the Department of
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Defense. I mean, when you collaborate in this day and age, you're going to get it back 10 X if you
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can just get out of your own way and do it. And, you know, I also think there's something to be said
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for the conversation that you and I were going to have as well. And that's the ability to tell a
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story. You know, I think a lot of the times when we say tell a story, we think that maybe it's fiction
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or it's made up a little bit more dramatic than it actually is, but I don't think that's true. I think
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it's just really painting your past or your experiences in a light that will really help you
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a connect with more people and then be push and drive a movement, whatever that movement is,
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whether it's leading a family and having a family vision to building and growing a business and an
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organization to a nonprofit to even winning a war. Would you agree or disagree or add to that?
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No, I agree a hundred percent. In fact, since getting out of the military, Ryan,
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my evolution has really been as a storyteller. One of the primary things I do now is I teach
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high stakes storytelling as a major component of what I call rooftop leadership and story.
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The thing about story that I think all of your listeners can take away is that it's the oldest
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form of communication in the world and frankly, still the most effective. We're wired for story.
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We've been telling story for a hundred thousand years and we crave it. It's a sense-making tool.
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It adds meaning and memory to an otherwise just vast sea of information overload and the other thing
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that story does is it makes you relatable. When you speak in narrative and when you ask open-ended
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questions that let people tell you their story, it just makes you relatable and it deepens your
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connection with people, even across cultures, across religions, socioeconomic status, you name it.
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Story is a bridging tool. Yeah. It's a great way to make yourself relatable,
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but then articulate a point too is, you know, you can go after the facts and the data. And of course,
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there's a time and a place for that. But I think just the ability to communicate that data and those
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facts in a way that resonates is probably the most important thing. But you said one thing that I'm
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curious about. You said high stakes storytelling. What do you mean by high stakes?
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Well, what I've found is that in this day and age, a lot of our leaders, you know, we have to
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communicate in an environment where there's just no room for failure. I mean, first of all,
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the average audience that we're dealing with, whether it's in a community center or whether
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it's at a fortune 100 company or a nonprofit environment or tribal Afghanistan, you're dealing
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with a low trust, high conflict situation. Trust has eroded so much in our society today that almost
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two thirds of Americans don't trust their neighbor anymore. According to Gallup, the average
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American in this modern world has the attention span of eight seconds, one second less than a goldfish
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and 85% of Americans claim to be distracted and disengaged at work. So if you're going to reach
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someone and move them to take action, the best chance you have is to tell them a story because it
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will automatically hit that visceral part of their solar plexus. That's a hundred thousand years old and
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they'll lean in and they'll perk up and you can actually move them much more effectively.
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I think this is an idea that probably everybody listening to this podcast has heard in some form
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or another. How did you, I don't know if you stumbled across this or if it was very intentional
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and deliberate when it came to communicating in the military, but how did you fall upon this
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information of storytelling being so important?
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So I was a green beret Ryan for, you know, almost 20 years of my 23 year career. And we operate in
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areas that are trust depleted, high conflict and in very small teams. And our, our mission
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is to work by with and through populations that are very different from us, build relationships and
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then mobilize them to fight back. If you've seen the movie 12 strong, that's a great representation of
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that. A lot of the work that we have to do in those rough places, Ryan, you know, those connections
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that we have to make, we don't have any authority over these folks. We're outgunned, but what we can
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do is communicate at an interpersonal level, mainly through narrative where we build connections. So I
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started to see the value as a storyteller in special forces. But when I got out, I connected with this
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guy, Bo Eason. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, a former NFL player and now a speaker. And he
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personally trained me as a storyteller and from the stage. And I just fell in love with it. And the
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effect, the return on investment that it has, as I teach corporate leaders and entrepreneurs,
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it's crazy. When you talk about your product, when you talk about your service, even your nonprofit,
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when you do it through narrative, the yield is ridiculous. So I just started to fall in love with
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it. And I just love telling stories. It's fun. Yeah. You know, it's really interesting as you talk
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about this. I've really tried to become a better presenter and we're going to get into some tactics.
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I want to ask you some questions on that, but I think there's another benefit of being able to
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story, tell a story, especially as a presenter, because I remember early in my financial planning
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career where I would try to present with facts and data and all the raw information. It was a miserable
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experience, not only for the people I was presenting to, but for me as well, because I had to remember all
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this stuff. And somewhere along the way, I came across this realization or somebody shared it with
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me that if I could just present in story form, not only is it going to be more impactful for the
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audience, whether that's a couple sitting across the desk from me or a group of 500, but it also helps
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me as a presenter because I don't need to remember my stories. I mean, it's my life. And so I just
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started telling stories of how I grew up and the experiences that I went through with business and the
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military. And I did it in a chronological order, which helped me as a presenter, not have to
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remember all those facts and data and everything else and just present from, from my heart, really.
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Yeah. You're spot on. When you talk about financial advisory, financial planning,
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any kind of services like that where, you know, estate planning, you know, we have this traditional
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mindset that we need PowerPoint slides, spreadsheets, and a lot of raw data. And I will tell you a lot of
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companies right now are moving away from that. Jeff Bezos has completely banned PowerPoint inside
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Amazon. And now in his meetings, everything that they do is narrative updates. Apple's moving that
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way. Richard Branson has, you know, doesn't use PowerPoint. So a lot of your, you know, your shakers
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and movers don't use it. I will tell you on the science side, because I, you know, I teach storytelling
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as, again, in a high stakes environment to law enforcement and military. And you can imagine in the
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military, the resistance to getting rid of PowerPoint, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Death by PowerPoint,
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right? It's crazy. But you know, what I show them is the book story proof by Kendall Haven talks about
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how every human mind in the world actually processes information through narrative. So if you were to give
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me raw data through PowerPoint or a spreadsheet, what's going to happen is my brain is going to form
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its own narrative about that raw data. And it's the story that I tell myself that will determine
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the outcome. Well, if you take that information that's in that raw data and you deliver it to me
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in your story, if it's structured properly and done properly, it will pass through all of the
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barriers in my mind and it will land right there in my limbic brain. And I will act on the information
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in your story, not one that I create. And so from a science side, and that's why, you know, gangs and
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ISIS and you know, it's, it's an agnostic vehicle, but it works. And our brains require story to take
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action. Alan Weiss, the consultant says logic makes people think emotion makes people act. And I will
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tell you story is a vehicle for emotion. One of the things that I heard, I can't remember where I heard
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this, but they said, if you don't fill in the gap for the people that you're communicating with,
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they're bound to fill in that gap on their own. And what they end up filling the gap in with is
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entirely up to them. So we need to create the narrative. And of course we can talk about being
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an integrity and telling the truth through narrative. Of course, I think that's that hopefully that goes
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without saying, but we can fill that gap in for our audience, or we can allow them to do it themselves.
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And odds are they'll jump to their own conclusions through their own perspectives and baggage that they,
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and we all carry around. That's so well said. And what I typically say when I'm training people to
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achieve relevance in their life, you know, whether you're a small business owner or you work in
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corporate America, or even with your family, we follow relevance in these trust depleted times.
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And if you want to be the most relevant person in the room, you need to own your life. You need to
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own your story. Then you can own the room. If you don't own your story, your story is going to own you.
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Or someone else is going to own your story. And either way, that's not a good outcome because
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then perceptions come into play. And, you know, people form perceptions on you that
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nine times out of 10 are not going to be accurate.
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Right, right. We jumped to conclusions. We read a book by its cover. It's really interesting.
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You're talking about this and I hadn't had this realization until you brought this up,
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but my oldest son, he's 10. Like any child, like any human being, we go through challenges and
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struggles. And I know for him just through experience and trial and error, that the best way to get
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him to understand what he's going through is to share with him a similar experience I had when
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I was his age. And it's really interesting because if I tell him, Oh, don't worry about it. Shake it
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off. Don't be upset. That doesn't help. For example, let's say he struck out during baseball and he gets
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down on himself and I could say, Oh, just walk it off. No big deal. It happens. The best players,
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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't resonate. Rather, what resonates better with him is saying,
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you know, when I was in high school, I had a 300 batting average, which means that every time I went
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up to the plate, I struck out seven times out of 10. And he's like, what? Tell me about, you know,
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and then we can have this conversation. And through those stories, he understands the lesson that's
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supposed to be learned there. Yeah. You've hit on some really important things. And if you want,
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I can just pull the thread on a few tactics here that I think will be helpful is number one is
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stories make us relatable, right? So that's the first thing to remember is that when you tell a
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story, you make yourself relatable to the person that you are talking to. The second thing is stories
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are done in service of others. So for example, when you were talking to your son, that's in the
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service of him. Third, we locate ourselves and other people's stories. We listen to people
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autobiographically. So if you're talking about your struggles in baseball, your son is actually
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thinking about his own struggles. And it's really weird. I tell a story about my dad's battle with
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cancer. And then I asked people at the end of it, what were you thinking about? And they're like,
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well, I'm thinking about my sister's cancer. I'm thinking about my scare with cancer. I was
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thinking, I hope I don't get cancer. When we tell a story, you're talking about a hundred thousand
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years of wiring, Ryan, where, you know, we used to sit around fires and we would talk about,
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you know, if I staggered into the camp, Hey, let me tell you guys why saber tooth tigers make crappy
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pets. I mean, like you'd lean in and you're listening. Yeah. I want to actually want to hear
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that story right now. So, but you know, our struggles are where we are the most relatable
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and you just hit on that. So when we talk about being vulnerable and all that, that's kind of a
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hard thing to get your head around. My advice is when you're telling a story in the service of others,
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don't leave out the struggle. That's the gold of the story. I actually want to hit on that because
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that to me, stories are in the service of others really, really resonates because I think we've
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all been on the receiving end of the opposite of that, which is, let me just run my mouth and talk
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about how great I am and how wonderful I am. And you might be telling a story, but you're not really
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serving others. You're trying to serve yourself. That's so true. And that's the difference between
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a storyteller and a speaker. Someone who's a storyteller is telling a story to serve the people
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in front of them. And, you know, in the storyteller's triangle, there is the teller,
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the audience and the story. And as the teller, you have an obligation to have a relationship with
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your story. You're alive, you're in it. It's a living, breathing thing that you share with others
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and you have a relationship with the audience. And then the audience has a relationship with your
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story and they get to choose whether or not they buy what you're selling or what you're talking
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about. And when you do it in the service of others, what I've found is that levels of empathy
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and reciprocity and human connection that come out of that are immeasurable. And if you can do it in
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a one-on-one setting with your boss, with your teenager, like, or your 10-year-old son, like you
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did, or in a big room with a TEDx talk, as long as you're in the service of others and you're telling
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that story to help other people, nine times out of 10, you're going to have a great result.
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I also think this is probably the distinguishing factor between somebody who is sharing some past
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struggles to lift somebody else up and somebody who's simply whining and complaining. Again,
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it's about the motive. Is this trying to lift me up as the whiner slash complainer,
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or am I telling this story so somebody else can be lifted out of their own struggles?
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It's a great point, Ryan. And in my rooftop leadership group that I have,
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I have, you know, a lot of leaders. For example, one of them, his name is Eric. He lost his teenage
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daughter Zoe to suicide. That guy has every reason in the world to just shut down, right? I mean,
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just go to ground and just say, screw it. But instead, what he does is he is a speaker and a
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trainer on resilience, and he helps people find not just an ability to survive grief, but to thrive in
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it. And guess what story he tells? Well, guess which one he leads off with? Finding his daughter Zoe in the
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closet. The work that he had to do to get there and to be able to do that is almost indescribable.
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It's not enough time on this podcast to talk about that, but what it is living proof of,
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and I've seen it over and over again, and I've done it with my own survivor's guilt from combat,
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is we can leverage our trauma to serve others through story. I'm an absolute believer in that.
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I want to get to that because I think there's a lot of people who deal with that at varying degrees.
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Before we do, I want to drill deeper a little bit into this because, and I'll tell you from my own
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personal experience that the most frequent feedback that I get from people who are listening to this
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podcast and tuning into what we're doing is, Ryan, I really resonate with you. And it's not because
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you hit this new PR on your deadlift or you ran that event or whatever. It's always because you shared
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the separation with your wife or because you shared how you used to be 50 pounds overweight and you've
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lost that weight and kept it off for three or four years. Those are the stories that connect people to
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this movement more so than look at me, look how wonderful and great I am because man, Lord knows
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We are drawn, Ryan, to authenticity. We are drawn to people who are in the grind and in the struggle of
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everyday life. If you think about the movies that you love, for example, Rocky, imagine if Rocky,
00:22:08.840
if the whole movie, if, you know, started off with him knocking out Apollo Creed and then kissing
00:22:13.100
Adrian right in the beginning, we'd walk out of the theater. You know, we locate each other in our
00:22:17.340
struggles. We're wired for struggle and authenticity and clarity and transparency and, and, you know,
00:22:25.480
struggle. If you just kind of keep those close to your heart and invoke them when you communicate to
00:22:32.640
other people and be willing to do that, it's amazing the growth and the connection and the
00:22:37.920
movements that you can incur with that. The irony is the more you talk about how great you are and
00:22:43.540
how perfect everything is and the sea full of selfies out there on social media, we can't connect to
00:22:48.480
that. It's completely dismissible and unwatchable.
00:22:51.660
Sure. Sure. I want to go back to a phrase that you used because I think it was, it would have been
00:22:56.060
easy to overlook or even just tune this podcast out because you said it and that was buy what you're
00:23:01.320
selling. And I think a lot of guys might hear that and think, well, you know, I'm not in a sales
00:23:05.800
position or I'm not trying to grow a business, but I think buy what you're selling could also be
00:23:10.740
proposing to your potential wife. It could be trying to get your children to buy into the family
00:23:18.860
vision. It could be that you're asking for a job promotion and there's so many ways to quote unquote
00:23:26.720
sell yourself, if you will. And it's not just about physical products and services and business,
00:23:32.260
right? I mean, we're talking about everything here.
00:23:35.500
Yeah, absolutely. Daniel Pink in his book to sell as human says that one out of nine Americans in the
00:23:40.180
workplace are involved in true sales, but the other eight out of nine spend 40% of their day
00:23:46.000
training, inspiring, moving, influencing, you know, moving people to take action in their lives that
00:23:52.960
they otherwise wouldn't do 40%. And I think that's absolutely true. You know, the definition of
00:23:58.340
negotiations by Stuart Diamond is two or more people coming together to meet each other's goals
00:24:04.480
or to meet their goals. I mean, life is about transactions, isn't it? And, and it's meeting other
00:24:10.360
people's goals and meeting our own goals and how we communicate that to other people in the form of
00:24:15.760
narrative is absolutely essential to moving people to take action. Whatever that action is, whether that's
00:24:22.020
your teenage daughter coming home from curfew on time, or whether it's getting someone to invest
00:24:26.580
in your nonprofit, we have to move people to take action. And story is a heck of a vehicle to do
00:24:32.260
that. I really think it is. And what you're talking about here is obviously creating win-win
00:24:35.960
situations. I can't, the negotiation can't come at the expense of somebody else. Otherwise it'll fall
00:24:40.920
apart. One of the things you were talking about is communicating across cultures, right? Especially
00:24:46.280
when you're in the Middle East and there's different cultures, but it even happens here. You know,
00:24:49.720
you think about political differences or cultural differences or religious philosophies and
00:24:56.160
viewpoints. And I think at the end of the day, most of us want the same things, right? We all want the
00:25:02.600
same thing. Now, how we go about getting those is different. And of course we have these other
00:25:05.800
little things that cloud our thoughts and judgment, but I think story kind of transcends politics and
00:25:11.480
cultural differences and religion for the most part. Yeah, I think that's right. In fact,
00:25:16.440
in the book game changers, I list four game changers that we used in those rough tribal areas. And the
00:25:21.320
one that I teach today, Ryan, whether it's corporate America, whether it's your entrepreneurship,
00:25:27.260
I don't care. Any situation where you're trying to meet your goals or you're trying to move someone
00:25:32.380
to take action, the golden rule is this, meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.
00:25:37.600
If you're able to do that, really truly see the pictures in their heads first, before you lay out
00:25:42.760
your agenda, before you tell your story, before you state your goals, you will almost guaranteed
00:25:49.840
establish a human connection that will leverage at least enough reciprocity for them to get ready
00:25:56.540
to listen to your goals. It's just a really effective way to engage people, meet them where
00:26:01.380
they are first, not where you want them to be. And it costs you nothing. This is really interesting
00:26:06.760
because I think a lot of men and myself too, let's be honest, have this tendency to want to
00:26:12.280
strong arm conversations and coerce and manipulate people into doing things. And then just put up the
00:26:18.040
stance like, I'm not moving. I'm staying here. They can come meet me over here. If they want to,
00:26:23.040
you won't ever be able to move somebody towards your perspective. If you weren't willing to come to
00:26:29.000
some common ground and come to the tape, the negotiation table, if you will give a little,
00:26:34.360
get a little and move that way. The phrase rooftop leadership that defines my whole organization,
00:26:41.900
I named that after watching team after team after team in Afghanistan, inspire tribal locals to go up
00:26:50.360
on their own rooftops and stand shoulder to shoulder with green berets and seals and infantrymen. When they
00:26:56.400
didn't have to do it, they chose to do it under the most dire circumstances. And it took time and it was
00:27:01.620
clunky. You know, it was leadership where people chose to follow. I think there's really something
00:27:07.940
to that. If you try to, you know, if the only tool in your kit bag is a hammer, well, then every problem
00:27:13.700
you face is a nail. And, you know, after a period of time, what ends up happening is you just create
00:27:19.100
social insurgents all around you. I mean, that's just human nature. If you tell me to do something,
00:27:25.020
then I'm going to resist you. But if you remind me of what's important, then I'll choose to value it and
00:27:34.800
Yeah, I think this actually comes back to you. And I can't remember the exact term that you used. Did you say
00:27:38.520
storytelling triangle? I took a note. I'm not sure if that's the right term. Okay. Yeah. I think there's this
00:27:43.600
really interesting thing where the communicator, I think you said the teller, believes that it's up to the
00:27:51.940
audience to understand the message and correct me if I'm wrong. But from my perspective, if you're
00:27:57.280
trying to communicate a message, the ability to effectively communicate the message is not on the
00:28:02.820
listener. It's on you as the deliverer of that message. So you've got to change tactics every
00:28:07.300
once in a while to make that land. Yeah, absolutely. You need to have complete clarity of your message
00:28:12.800
all the time. That's your job. In fact, people are drawn to clarity, right? I mean, it's one of the
00:28:17.880
things that I teach is that, you know, if you really want to move people to take action,
00:28:21.700
you got to be crystal clear on what you're building. I like to tell folks, you know,
00:28:25.800
talk about what you're building, right? This is what I'm building. Help me build it. And as humans,
00:28:30.500
we're drawn to that. We're social creatures and we were drawn to that. So yes, you got to be clear
00:28:34.960
on that. What I was saying was, as the teller, you have a relationship to your story and your message,
00:28:40.860
and you also have a relationship to the audience, a connection to them. But the audience also has a
00:28:47.600
relationship to your story. And ultimately, it's their choice. It's not yours as to whether or not
00:28:54.120
they embrace your story. And if you think about it, that's kind of a relief because it keeps you
00:29:00.080
from overreaching. And it ultimately lets them be the ones to choose.
00:29:04.380
Well, and I think it takes a little bit of a faith and belief in other people knowing that
00:29:09.820
these people are intelligent enough to make their own decisions. You know, I think leaders
00:29:16.500
sometimes have the tendency to think, I know it's in everybody else's best interest when they have
00:29:22.080
no idea of what this individual may be experiencing. We've got to have faith and a little belief that
00:29:26.700
people are going to make good decisions for themselves and the people they're responsible for.
00:29:31.820
I agree. Tomorrow, I'm going to go to Fannie Mae in DC, and I'm going to give a talk about
00:29:36.080
overcoming the challenges of change. And so I'm going to tell stories from my experience in Special
00:29:42.980
Forces that I saw where change was very prolific and very challenging. I'm going to give all of
00:29:48.900
myself to that story, Ryan. I'm going to physicalize it. I'm going to go back there. I'm going to even
00:29:54.020
revisit some things that are a little hard for me to revisit. But I'm going to give myself to that
00:29:59.980
story and the tell, and I'm going to do everything I can to connect with one person at a time in that
00:30:04.500
room and just constantly ask myself, what do they need? Am I giving it to them? When I'm done with
00:30:10.840
that, I'm going to walk away wishing I had done a better job. And ultimately, they can decide whether
00:30:17.080
or not it served them. And that's just how it goes. Gentlemen, just a quick break before we get back
00:30:23.980
to the conversation. You've heard me talk about this before, and you're probably not going to have
00:30:28.040
to hear me talk about it much more as we have our inaugural Order Man Legacy event that's coming up
00:30:33.260
this fall. Guys, if you have a son between the ages of 8 to 15, you are not going to want to miss
00:30:39.260
this experience. Creating a rite of passage for my sons has been instrumental in helping usher them
00:30:45.240
into manhood. And I recognize a need for that type of experience outside of the walls of my home. And
00:30:50.060
that's why on September 20th through the 23rd, 2018, I'm inviting you to join me in the mountains of
00:30:56.900
Southern Utah for a physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding week for you and your son or your
00:31:02.140
sons. You're going to learn some new skills, gain access to the resources and framework that will
00:31:07.120
help you and your son become better men. And you'll have the opportunity to compete with 19 other
00:31:11.640
fathers and sons in some incredible exercises and activities. So if you are interested, get signed
00:31:18.320
up quickly. Space is running out. We only have seven more spots left, so you've got to do it quick.
00:31:23.140
You can learn more. You can lock in that seat. Again, the dates are September 20th through the
00:31:27.120
23rd, 2018. And you can get locked in at order of man.com slash legacy. Again, that's order of
00:31:33.760
man.com slash legacy. So get signed up after the show. In the meantime, we'll get back to the
00:31:38.960
conversation with Colonel man. Let's talk about your story a little bit because you had talked
00:31:44.520
about having some survivor guilt and I'm sure there's a lot more to that. How did you begin to
00:31:50.280
take the, I'm sure horrific things that you've seen and dealt with and struggled with and go from
00:31:58.300
turning that inward? I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong,
00:32:02.200
but turning that inward to allowing it to get to you versus turning it outward and allowing it to
00:32:08.080
serve other people. And again, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
00:32:11.980
You may have a different way of saying that. You phrased it very well and eloquently,
00:32:15.900
and I appreciate you taking the time to do that. When I, when I got out of the military five years
00:32:20.360
ago, the first couple of years after I retired were pretty dark. I lost, you know, a lot of
00:32:25.740
friends as many of us did. Some of them died doing what I asked them to do. And I don't think that's
00:32:31.040
anything I'll ever get over, but it took me to some very dark places. It, um, it really affected my
00:32:36.020
marriage. It affected how I raised my kids. I'll be honest with you. I, I, I'm, you know, I don't know
00:32:41.860
how I made it through that time. And there were times when I didn't think I would and I would just
00:32:45.940
check out. But along the way, I met some people who helped me find my voice again. And by find my
00:32:54.520
voice, I mean, reconnect to my purpose and something bigger than me and why I came in special forces and
00:33:01.120
realizing that the army didn't get to keep my purpose. That's mine. The tracks that I leave in
00:33:05.760
this world were mine when I came in the army and they're mine when I leave. And, and I just started to
00:33:10.780
reconnect to that and find my voice, Ryan, and to tell my story. I just knew I needed to,
00:33:15.340
to kind of rediscover my own story, my origin story about how I became a Green Beret, what I
00:33:21.500
learned in the process, the men who, you know, went on and didn't make it home and incorporate
00:33:26.460
them into it and what I learned. And as I started to do that, I was really thrilled that people
00:33:31.180
actually wanted to hear it and that there could be service and lessons in that in leadership. And
00:33:36.060
so we even started a nonprofit called the hero's journey, where we help out other warriors
00:33:40.420
rediscover their purpose again and tell their story, whether it's to talk to their families
00:33:45.260
or an employer in an interview. That's how I met Phil. Stories saved my life, man. That's all I
00:33:49.860
know to say. What do you consider to be your purpose now? Maybe it's the same. Maybe it's
00:33:54.540
changed. What do you consider that to be? To make a difference bigger than myself in this world from
00:34:00.060
the bottom up, you know, and I do it in a range of ways. Now I don't do it as a Green Beret anymore.
00:34:04.960
I do it in trying to suggest better ways to fight violent extremism. I do it training leaders here
00:34:10.980
in America at corporate and entrepreneurial levels on rooftop leadership, and I do it on
00:34:15.120
helping veterans come home. So I have a pretty vast body of work like you, but my purpose is to
00:34:21.340
make a difference bigger than myself from the bottom up. That's my purpose. And that will always
00:34:25.840
be true north on my compass. What would you tell a man who's listening to this, who
00:34:30.620
is overcoming his own trials, whether that's war like you are or a potential divorce, or maybe a
00:34:39.100
spouse has died or they've lost a job, somebody who's really struggling, who needs to reconnect
00:34:45.820
with their purpose? What would be the first step? What do they do? The first thing I would say to them
00:34:51.060
is you are definitely here to do something bigger than yourself. There's something there bigger than
00:34:57.260
you. That's not a casual thing. That's a birthright. And each one of us is obligated to find what that
00:35:04.940
is. And the struggle that you're going through is a potential gift to so many people. I have a friend,
00:35:11.700
Romy Camargo, who's a quadriplegic ventilator dependent, wounded in Afghanistan. And he runs a
00:35:18.040
nonprofit center for veterans and civilians for spinal cord injury. And he's treated over 70 people.
00:35:23.360
Five have walked. Half have been veterans. And he can't move from the shoulders down.
00:35:27.720
And he struggles every day. But he'll tell you that bullet saved his life. It gave him
00:35:31.920
that purpose that's bigger than him and a reason to get up every morning. And I've just seen it over
00:35:37.060
and over again. And in the darkest of times, I believe it's those struggles that make the greatest
00:35:42.500
stories and that define us and give us the gifts that serve other people. Because as bad as you're
00:35:47.300
hurting, I guarantee you, there's somebody hurting worse. And if you just look for them and serve,
00:35:55.400
What do you say to yourself when you're having a day where maybe you're revisiting some past
00:35:59.800
memories or getting down on yourself, beating yourself up over something? How do you decide,
00:36:04.500
no, I'm going to get out of bed today. I'm going to go at it. I'm going to attack it. And I'm going
00:36:09.120
Man, you're asking some questions that are putting me on the floor here.
00:36:13.720
Yeah, it is. And guys are experiencing... You know as well as I do, men are experiencing this stuff. So
00:36:19.820
Yeah, no, it's great, man. You know what I do, man, is I tell myself,
00:36:24.260
you know, that Vic and Jerry and Job and all the guys that are not here would kick my ass
00:36:31.340
if I sat around here and just did nothing. They're not here and I am here and I have
00:36:37.200
the opportunity to do something. Maybe it's just the blessing of being in special forces long enough.
00:36:42.600
I saw what a small group of guys can do when they believe in each other and when they believe
00:36:47.300
in something bigger than themselves. And, you know, I was usually a witness to it, not as much
00:36:51.940
a participant as the heroes that didn't make it back, but I saw it and I just, that's what I do.
00:36:56.500
I just tell myself, look, you're here, man. You don't know how much time you got,
00:37:01.820
What role does brotherhood play in your life now? I mean, obviously in the military,
00:37:06.380
and I saw this in my own transition out of the military. And I know there's countless men and
00:37:11.920
women who have experienced this as well. They don't have that camaraderie that they once had.
00:37:17.540
What does that look like now for you on the civilian side?
00:37:21.280
God, I missed it so bad. I missed it so bad. It was probably the thing I missed more than anything.
00:37:26.340
So, you know what I did? I formed this group called Spartans Rising and there's about 75 of us.
00:37:32.200
We meet twice a year. It's a retreat. We go out to the woods in old Florida for two days and we
00:37:38.800
talk about servant-based leadership and we talk about storytelling and impact and it's a true
00:37:44.380
brotherhood. And I try to bring all the skills I learned as a Green Beret for interpersonal
00:37:48.720
communications and team building and give it to them so they can be better husbands, fathers,
00:37:53.260
brothers, leaders. That's what I've done is I just said, you know what, man, I'm going to go find
00:37:58.860
other guys like me and I'm going to build a tribe. And we did. And we've been at it for
00:38:02.020
two years now and it's frigging awesome. And it, again, probably one of the things that saved my
00:38:06.920
life. It's interesting. We just wrapped up a little bit ago, our uprising event, which is a
00:38:13.200
three and a half day immersive experience. We bring guys in from all over the country.
00:38:17.960
We even have a similar name, Spartans Rising and Uprising. And it is pretty powerful when you band
00:38:23.320
men together towards a common objective and purpose. You bet it sure is. We need it, don't we?
00:38:29.020
Oh, a hundred percent. And I don't know where this come from. I don't know if, if it's been
00:38:34.280
glamorized by the big screen or whatever it may be that this idea that we've got to be the lone wolf,
00:38:39.800
right? That we've got to go out alone. And if we, if we ask for help or we ask for assistance or we
00:38:45.520
band together with another man, or we call somebody up and say, Hey man, I'm really struggling over here
00:38:49.740
that somehow it makes us more weak or less, less manly. And you're talking about humans and going back
00:38:57.120
hundreds of thousands of years. Like we've always operated in packs and tribes up until recently,
00:39:02.860
you know, we're more connected than we've ever been in the history of the world. And yet there
00:39:08.140
is a huge disconnect, especially among men that's created some real problems. You look at suicide
00:39:13.220
rates and you look at depression and it's just, it's absolutely crazy. And I think it stems a lot
00:39:19.900
We're too isolated and humans are the most social creatures on the planet. We're actually
00:39:24.620
designed to form teams and you know, nobody wins alone. There's just no way. The one thing I would
00:39:30.740
just add to what you just said very well was, you know, the other thing is we got to make sure that
00:39:35.620
we're looking in our brother's eyes all the time. I've lost six friends to suicide in the last two
00:39:40.700
years, man. And we got to look in each other's eyes and make sure, Hey, you okay? You know, I mean,
00:39:45.580
I don't think we can take that for granted anymore. A lot of us are out there operating,
00:39:49.960
trying to operate alone and unafraid, and it's not healthy. It's not good. And you know,
00:39:55.100
part of being your brother's keeper is taking a more aggressive role and making sure that you're
00:39:59.720
looking in your brother's eyes and making sure he's okay.
00:40:02.360
That's a good point. I think there's a lot of people though, that are afraid to do that
00:40:05.620
because they're worried about what somebody might think. You know, like if I called and noticed,
00:40:11.320
for example, something was going on with you and I called you up and I said something,
00:40:14.500
then there's this thought maybe that I have that somehow you'll be upset or offended or I'll
00:40:20.620
jeopardize our friendship. And so we're so scared to do what we know we probably should be doing to
00:40:26.220
help each other out. It's true. It's true. And I just think we got to get past that. We got to get
00:40:31.500
over that. We got to over communicate and put the devices down and get back. I say, I tell men,
00:40:38.300
get back to your nature. The more connected you are to your nature, the more relevant you are,
00:40:43.020
even more so in this transactional world. You have a huge edge.
00:40:47.320
What do you mean by get back to your, you're not talking about the outdoors. You're talking about
00:40:50.940
human nature, masculinity. I mean, what are you talking about?
00:40:54.480
I'm talking about human nature. I'm talking about that understanding of the visceral primal
00:40:59.280
components that define us. 80% of who we are as humans and men is below the surface, below the
00:41:06.020
waterline. It's the elements of honor and status and vengeance and resource scarcity and narrative
00:41:12.540
and physicality. There's a whole, that's almost another topic, but there's this whole, and I teach
00:41:18.360
this in law enforcement, special forces. There's a whole element that 80% of what we are is below the
00:41:25.180
surface. It's primal, but it's still exactly the same as it was 250,000 years ago. It has not changed.
00:41:34.140
Isn't that interesting? I think there's a lot of people who say that modern times have changed us
00:41:39.200
or who we are. And I think there are some things that certainly have changed, no doubt, but I think
00:41:43.860
human nature, masculinity, femininity is pretty consistent with the way it's always been. Although
00:41:49.640
the way we go about approaching those obligations, responsibilities, and duties may change through
00:41:54.720
the course of time. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, we've evolved socially more in the 250,000,
00:42:00.880
last 250 years than we have in the last 250,000 years that modern man's been around. But let's face
00:42:07.420
it, when that phone goes off, that's just dopamine juicing through your body the same way when we used
00:42:12.380
to grab for a banana. Cortisol, oxytocin that promotes trust, reciprocity, empathy, resource
00:42:19.320
scarcity, all those drivers are just as primal as they've ever been. They're just kind of going haywire
00:42:26.560
in a transactional society because we've lost touch with our own nature. We don't know who we are
00:42:30.540
anymore. Yeah, I think that's why that reset, specifically even like a technology reset,
00:42:35.160
which is ironic because everybody's listening to this podcast using that technology. So there's
00:42:38.520
value for sure. But I think having some of these resets are also really, really valuable.
00:42:43.540
They are. The technology's there. It's helpful, but it's even more helpful if you're connected to
00:42:49.020
your nature and you understand how status and honor and reciprocity and story and active listening,
00:42:56.200
if you know how all those work and then you let that to inform your use of technology,
00:43:01.300
now you're a relevant kind of guy. Right, right. Well, we could go on about this all day for the
00:43:07.040
sake of time. Is there anything that maybe I should have asked or should have covered that I did not
00:43:11.400
cover that would benefit the men listening? I appreciate you letting me be on, Ryan. And I would just say,
00:43:16.120
any opportunity you have to tell your story, even if you're given a PowerPoint presentation to your
00:43:21.420
boss, start with a story. And any opportunity you have to ask someone for their story, whether it's
00:43:27.180
a new arrival to your team, you're recognizing someone for achievement, or even talking to your
00:43:33.260
kid about how his day was, ask open-ended questions that let people tell you their story. That's called
00:43:38.920
narrative competence, and it will really help you be the most relevant person in the room in this day
00:43:44.560
and age. And that's what people follow. Right on. Well, speaking of open-ended questions,
00:43:48.980
let me ask you a couple here. Number one, what does it mean to be a man?
00:43:53.260
It means connecting to your nature. I think knowing where you've come from,
00:43:57.460
where you are now and where you're going and complete clarity on that, or at least a quest for
00:44:02.460
that clarity. And how do we connect with you? If we want to learn more about storytelling,
00:44:06.540
rooftop leadership, how do we get ahold of you? Yeah, just go to rooftop leadership.com.
00:44:11.500
I'm constantly putting new content out there on all of this kind of stuff and would love to have
00:44:17.080
folks join up with the tribe. Right on. Well, Colonel, man, I appreciate you. I appreciate
00:44:20.880
you joining us today. Of course, your service to this nation and each of us individually,
00:44:25.620
and I'm looking forward to getting to know you better. Thanks for spending some time with us.
00:44:29.400
Thank you so much, Ryan. And thank you for what you've built and for all the guys out there
00:44:32.800
listening and gals. Thanks a lot. And it's just an honor to be on. God bless you.
00:44:36.480
Gentlemen, there it is. My conversation and discussion with Lieutenant Colonel Scott, man,
00:44:42.900
I know that you are walking away with so much valuable insight and how to be a more effective
00:44:48.520
leader, but look, let's face it. Unless you're willing to implement and apply the lessons being
00:44:54.320
learned, it's really not going to help all that much. So I want you to take everything that you
00:44:59.460
learned in this podcast through this discussion and actually apply it, apply it with your families
00:45:04.420
and leading your spouses and leading your kids, apply it in the business and leading your employees
00:45:09.040
and, and potentially even your bosses and coworkers. The more that you apply this stuff,
00:45:13.360
the better off you will be and the better off your teams will be. So please let me and Colonel man
00:45:18.820
know how you are applying this information, how you are becoming a better leader. It's always good
00:45:24.080
to know that our work is meaningful and significant, and you're actually using it to improve
00:45:28.720
your lives. So hit me up on Facebook and Twitter at order of man or Instagram. And I've been very,
00:45:36.520
very active over on Instagram lately. You can do that at Ryan Mickler. My last name is spelled M I C H
00:45:41.900
L E R. So that's at Ryan Mickler. Let me know, let Colonel man know what you think. And, uh,
00:45:47.260
we'll go from there. I hope that it's been helpful for you. Uh, I'm going to sign out for today,
00:45:51.580
but in the meantime, please go ahead and take a look at our legacy event. That's for fathers and sons
00:45:56.860
between the ages of eight to 15. It's going to be an amazing, amazing three and a half day
00:46:02.140
experience that will help you and your son forge a tighter bond and then help you usher him as a
00:46:07.240
young man into manhood guys. I'm going to sign out with that today. I appreciate you being on this
00:46:12.660
journey of reclaiming and restoring what it means to be a man. I could not possibly do this
00:46:17.380
without you. So until Friday, take action and become a man. You are meant to be.
00:46:22.420
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:46:27.860
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.