Order of Man - 171： Leading From the Top ｜ Lt. Col. Scott Mann

00:00:00.000 Every man will, at some point, be placed in a position of leadership, whether that's in the

00:00:03.940 walls of his home, a new project at work, promotion, ecclesiastical services with friends,

00:00:09.140 or simply leading himself. And his ability to lead effectively will spell the difference between

00:00:13.680 success and failure in any endeavor. Today, I am joined by retired Green Beret Lieutenant

00:00:18.600 Colonel Scott Mann to talk about how to be a strong leader. We talk about the importance of

00:00:23.880 becoming a great storyteller, how to play your position well, and allow others to do the same

00:00:29.120 why leaders need to learn to get out of the way and how you too can lead from the top.

00:00:34.680 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:39.720 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily

00:00:45.700 deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is

00:00:53.020 who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself

00:00:58.400 a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and

00:01:03.720 founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. This is a podcast, and frankly, it's a movement.

00:01:08.900 Guys, it's a movement to reclaim and restore what it means to be a man. So whether you're

00:01:13.940 tuning in for the very first time, and I know there's a lot of guys who are tuning in for

00:01:17.300 the first time because I've gotten a lot of messages over the past week or two that has

00:01:21.000 told me that you have just found this movement. Or if you've been around for three, three and a

00:01:25.400 a half years, I want to welcome you. It is my goal to provide you with the tools and

00:01:30.000 the guidance and direction and resources. And in this podcast, specifically, the conversations

00:01:34.840 with other incredible men who are doing incredible things in their lives and then bringing those

00:01:39.720 conversations directly to you so you can take the practical insight, information, and wisdom

00:01:45.340 and apply it into your life as a father, a husband, a business leader, a community leader,

00:01:50.440 just a better man in general. And that's what we're all about. I've said it before. Society

00:01:54.800 seems to at best be dismissing what it means to be a man. And it's my mission and hopefully

00:02:00.140 yours as well to reclaim what exactly that means and how we as men show up for our families,

00:02:06.640 our businesses, and our communities. I'm going to jump pretty quick into this one. I do want

00:02:10.500 to make a quick mention of our show sponsors. I couldn't do it with them and I couldn't do

00:02:14.740 it without you, but the show sponsors are Origin Maine. I've been talking about them for the

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00:03:20.780 slash order of man. Again, originmain.com slash order of man. And then make sure you use the code

00:03:26.300 order, O-R-D-E-R at checkout, because you're going to get a discount when you do. So again,

00:03:30.980 originmain.com slash order of man, and then use order at checkout. And that's all I have by way of

00:03:36.620 announcements today. I have the honor of introducing you, as I said before, to retired

00:03:41.620 Green Beret, Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann. This guy is a master at building relationships in

00:03:48.100 high stakes and competitive environments. As you might imagine, he spent 23 years in the United

00:03:53.220 States army. 18 of those were spent in and as a Green Beret, where he specialized in missions all

00:03:59.980 over the world, Columbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, all over. He's also a regular contributor to CNN,

00:04:05.520 Fox, Bloomberg, so many others where he shares his insights and experience when it comes to leading

00:04:10.580 teams effectively. Obviously, he is a man who's worked in some extremely hostile environments,

00:04:16.280 but he's been able to lead missions effectively through his ability to build trust and credibility,

00:04:21.700 where most of that has been destroyed. So guys, get your notepads out if you can,

00:04:26.700 and you're in the position to do that and get ready to listen into a very effective and strong

00:04:31.680 leader, share his insights and how we can become better leaders in our lives.

00:04:35.180 Colonel Mann, thank you for joining us on the show today. Glad to have you here.

00:04:41.000 Hey, thanks, Ryan. It's an honor to be here.

00:04:42.640 Yeah, we got connected through Phil Randazzo with American Dream U, and he's actually been on the show

00:04:47.420 before. And I know anybody who is a friend of Phil's and involved in that organization is certainly a

00:04:52.340 friend of mine because I know, oh man, he just does a great job connecting with people and finding the

00:04:57.460 right people to participate in that movement. So glad you're here.

00:05:01.300 Yeah, thanks. And Phil is such a great American. When you think about,

00:05:05.360 Ryan, what he's invested in just blood, sweat and tears into that nonprofit to help our warriors

00:05:10.620 transition from military service. He is, he's just such a catalyst, such a connector. And he just,

00:05:15.760 he puts so much of his heart in it. It's really cool to work with him.

00:05:18.700 He is somebody who stands out. So let's talk about this for a second, and then we'll get into

00:05:22.300 what I want to talk. And I think we can weave this together here. What do you think it is about

00:05:26.020 a man like Phil, who's able to be such a powerful connector and have that drive and

00:05:31.060 motivation towards what it is he's doing?

00:05:33.700 He serves a purpose so much bigger than himself. If you spend 30 seconds with him,

00:05:38.720 you learn very quickly that none of this is about Phil. I mean, he really considers himself a vessel,

00:05:43.880 an instrument. He clearly sees a bigger purpose, a bigger outcome. And, you know,

00:05:49.980 he just plays his position to do that. The other thing, Ryan, that I think is essential in this day

00:05:54.680 and age is he's all about connecting and then getting out of the way. So it's all about human

00:06:00.420 connection around the problem set, like he connected you and me. And then he just gets out

00:06:04.840 of the way. That kind of catalyst mindset in this day and age, I think is one of the best skills you

00:06:10.160 can have in tackling wicked problems. Yeah. I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think

00:06:14.640 there's this notion that if somehow I were to share my network with you, that I might be out or

00:06:20.360 jeopardizing that network, but that's the furthest thing from the truth. I love being somewhat of a

00:06:25.300 hub for making these connections because I really make myself invaluable when I'm connecting two

00:06:30.220 people together. I think that's a hundred percent right. You know, even in the book that I wrote,

00:06:34.860 Game Changers, about fighting violent extremism in Afghanistan, we frankly learned way too late in

00:06:40.380 the war the power of collaboration across agencies, across different parts of the Department of

00:06:45.800 Defense. I mean, when you collaborate in this day and age, you're going to get it back 10 X if you

00:06:51.200 can just get out of your own way and do it. And, you know, I also think there's something to be said

00:06:55.080 for the conversation that you and I were going to have as well. And that's the ability to tell a

00:07:00.980 story. You know, I think a lot of the times when we say tell a story, we think that maybe it's fiction

00:07:06.280 or it's made up a little bit more dramatic than it actually is, but I don't think that's true. I think

00:07:10.880 it's just really painting your past or your experiences in a light that will really help you

00:07:16.740 a connect with more people and then be push and drive a movement, whatever that movement is,

00:07:22.260 whether it's leading a family and having a family vision to building and growing a business and an

00:07:27.700 organization to a nonprofit to even winning a war. Would you agree or disagree or add to that?

00:07:34.520 No, I agree a hundred percent. In fact, since getting out of the military, Ryan,

00:07:39.040 my evolution has really been as a storyteller. One of the primary things I do now is I teach

00:07:44.460 high stakes storytelling as a major component of what I call rooftop leadership and story.

00:07:50.600 The thing about story that I think all of your listeners can take away is that it's the oldest

00:07:55.360 form of communication in the world and frankly, still the most effective. We're wired for story.

00:08:01.000 We've been telling story for a hundred thousand years and we crave it. It's a sense-making tool.

00:08:06.320 It adds meaning and memory to an otherwise just vast sea of information overload and the other thing

00:08:16.420 that story does is it makes you relatable. When you speak in narrative and when you ask open-ended

00:08:22.000 questions that let people tell you their story, it just makes you relatable and it deepens your

00:08:27.680 connection with people, even across cultures, across religions, socioeconomic status, you name it.

00:08:33.840 Story is a bridging tool. Yeah. It's a great way to make yourself relatable,

00:08:38.200 but then articulate a point too is, you know, you can go after the facts and the data. And of course,

00:08:43.540 there's a time and a place for that. But I think just the ability to communicate that data and those

00:08:49.500 facts in a way that resonates is probably the most important thing. But you said one thing that I'm

00:08:55.860 curious about. You said high stakes storytelling. What do you mean by high stakes?

00:08:59.620 Well, what I've found is that in this day and age, a lot of our leaders, you know, we have to

00:09:06.600 communicate in an environment where there's just no room for failure. I mean, first of all,

00:09:12.000 the average audience that we're dealing with, whether it's in a community center or whether

00:09:16.780 it's at a fortune 100 company or a nonprofit environment or tribal Afghanistan, you're dealing 1.00

00:09:22.520 with a low trust, high conflict situation. Trust has eroded so much in our society today that almost

00:09:29.200 two thirds of Americans don't trust their neighbor anymore. According to Gallup, the average

00:09:33.500 American in this modern world has the attention span of eight seconds, one second less than a goldfish 0.98

00:09:38.780 and 85% of Americans claim to be distracted and disengaged at work. So if you're going to reach

00:09:45.460 someone and move them to take action, the best chance you have is to tell them a story because it

00:09:51.760 will automatically hit that visceral part of their solar plexus. That's a hundred thousand years old and

00:09:57.760 they'll lean in and they'll perk up and you can actually move them much more effectively.

00:10:03.040 I think this is an idea that probably everybody listening to this podcast has heard in some form

00:10:07.600 or another. How did you, I don't know if you stumbled across this or if it was very intentional

00:10:13.380 and deliberate when it came to communicating in the military, but how did you fall upon this

00:10:18.280 information of storytelling being so important?

00:10:20.260 So I was a green beret Ryan for, you know, almost 20 years of my 23 year career. And we operate in

00:10:27.820 areas that are trust depleted, high conflict and in very small teams. And our, our mission

00:10:34.220 is to work by with and through populations that are very different from us, build relationships and

00:10:41.400 then mobilize them to fight back. If you've seen the movie 12 strong, that's a great representation of

00:10:46.940 that. A lot of the work that we have to do in those rough places, Ryan, you know, those connections

00:10:52.320 that we have to make, we don't have any authority over these folks. We're outgunned, but what we can

00:10:57.560 do is communicate at an interpersonal level, mainly through narrative where we build connections. So I

00:11:04.180 started to see the value as a storyteller in special forces. But when I got out, I connected with this

00:11:10.780 guy, Bo Eason. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, a former NFL player and now a speaker. And he

00:11:16.220 personally trained me as a storyteller and from the stage. And I just fell in love with it. And the

00:11:20.920 effect, the return on investment that it has, as I teach corporate leaders and entrepreneurs,

00:11:26.420 it's crazy. When you talk about your product, when you talk about your service, even your nonprofit,

00:11:32.820 when you do it through narrative, the yield is ridiculous. So I just started to fall in love with

00:11:37.380 it. And I just love telling stories. It's fun. Yeah. You know, it's really interesting as you talk

00:11:42.200 about this. I've really tried to become a better presenter and we're going to get into some tactics.

00:11:47.160 I want to ask you some questions on that, but I think there's another benefit of being able to

00:11:51.280 story, tell a story, especially as a presenter, because I remember early in my financial planning

00:11:57.200 career where I would try to present with facts and data and all the raw information. It was a miserable

00:12:03.420 experience, not only for the people I was presenting to, but for me as well, because I had to remember all

00:12:08.580 this stuff. And somewhere along the way, I came across this realization or somebody shared it with

00:12:12.880 me that if I could just present in story form, not only is it going to be more impactful for the

00:12:19.200 audience, whether that's a couple sitting across the desk from me or a group of 500, but it also helps

00:12:25.680 me as a presenter because I don't need to remember my stories. I mean, it's my life. And so I just

00:12:31.940 started telling stories of how I grew up and the experiences that I went through with business and the

00:12:36.940 military. And I did it in a chronological order, which helped me as a presenter, not have to

00:12:41.880 remember all those facts and data and everything else and just present from, from my heart, really.

00:12:46.780 Yeah. You're spot on. When you talk about financial advisory, financial planning,

00:12:50.880 any kind of services like that where, you know, estate planning, you know, we have this traditional

00:12:56.220 mindset that we need PowerPoint slides, spreadsheets, and a lot of raw data. And I will tell you a lot of

00:13:03.920 companies right now are moving away from that. Jeff Bezos has completely banned PowerPoint inside

00:13:09.200 Amazon. And now in his meetings, everything that they do is narrative updates. Apple's moving that

00:13:15.620 way. Richard Branson has, you know, doesn't use PowerPoint. So a lot of your, you know, your shakers 1.00

00:13:19.840 and movers don't use it. I will tell you on the science side, because I, you know, I teach storytelling

00:13:25.140 as, again, in a high stakes environment to law enforcement and military. And you can imagine in the

00:13:30.040 military, the resistance to getting rid of PowerPoint, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Death by PowerPoint,

00:13:34.540 right? It's crazy. But you know, what I show them is the book story proof by Kendall Haven talks about

00:13:39.760 how every human mind in the world actually processes information through narrative. So if you were to give

00:13:47.280 me raw data through PowerPoint or a spreadsheet, what's going to happen is my brain is going to form

00:13:52.700 its own narrative about that raw data. And it's the story that I tell myself that will determine

00:13:58.340 the outcome. Well, if you take that information that's in that raw data and you deliver it to me

00:14:04.260 in your story, if it's structured properly and done properly, it will pass through all of the

00:14:10.300 barriers in my mind and it will land right there in my limbic brain. And I will act on the information

00:14:16.500 in your story, not one that I create. And so from a science side, and that's why, you know, gangs and

00:14:22.620 ISIS and you know, it's, it's an agnostic vehicle, but it works. And our brains require story to take 0.98

00:14:29.980 action. Alan Weiss, the consultant says logic makes people think emotion makes people act. And I will

00:14:35.660 tell you story is a vehicle for emotion. One of the things that I heard, I can't remember where I heard

00:14:41.020 this, but they said, if you don't fill in the gap for the people that you're communicating with,

00:14:45.680 they're bound to fill in that gap on their own. And what they end up filling the gap in with is

00:14:52.000 entirely up to them. So we need to create the narrative. And of course we can talk about being

00:14:58.180 an integrity and telling the truth through narrative. Of course, I think that's that hopefully that goes

00:15:02.680 without saying, but we can fill that gap in for our audience, or we can allow them to do it themselves.

00:15:08.920 And odds are they'll jump to their own conclusions through their own perspectives and baggage that they,

00:15:14.220 and we all carry around. That's so well said. And what I typically say when I'm training people to

00:15:21.180 achieve relevance in their life, you know, whether you're a small business owner or you work in

00:15:26.520 corporate America, or even with your family, we follow relevance in these trust depleted times.

00:15:32.820 And if you want to be the most relevant person in the room, you need to own your life. You need to

00:15:38.360 own your story. Then you can own the room. If you don't own your story, your story is going to own you.

00:15:44.220 Or someone else is going to own your story. And either way, that's not a good outcome because

00:15:48.200 then perceptions come into play. And, you know, people form perceptions on you that

00:15:53.880 nine times out of 10 are not going to be accurate.

00:15:56.520 Right, right. We jumped to conclusions. We read a book by its cover. It's really interesting.

00:16:00.200 You're talking about this and I hadn't had this realization until you brought this up,

00:16:03.400 but my oldest son, he's 10. Like any child, like any human being, we go through challenges and

00:16:08.940 struggles. And I know for him just through experience and trial and error, that the best way to get

00:16:14.020 him to understand what he's going through is to share with him a similar experience I had when

00:16:21.280 I was his age. And it's really interesting because if I tell him, Oh, don't worry about it. Shake it

00:16:26.720 off. Don't be upset. That doesn't help. For example, let's say he struck out during baseball and he gets

00:16:32.420 down on himself and I could say, Oh, just walk it off. No big deal. It happens. The best players,

00:16:36.260 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't resonate. Rather, what resonates better with him is saying,

00:16:41.800 you know, when I was in high school, I had a 300 batting average, which means that every time I went

00:16:48.100 up to the plate, I struck out seven times out of 10. And he's like, what? Tell me about, you know,

00:16:54.200 and then we can have this conversation. And through those stories, he understands the lesson that's

00:16:58.880 supposed to be learned there. Yeah. You've hit on some really important things. And if you want,

00:17:03.460 I can just pull the thread on a few tactics here that I think will be helpful is number one is

00:17:09.360 stories make us relatable, right? So that's the first thing to remember is that when you tell a

00:17:13.820 story, you make yourself relatable to the person that you are talking to. The second thing is stories

00:17:20.280 are done in service of others. So for example, when you were talking to your son, that's in the

00:17:25.100 service of him. Third, we locate ourselves and other people's stories. We listen to people

00:17:30.780 autobiographically. So if you're talking about your struggles in baseball, your son is actually

00:17:36.600 thinking about his own struggles. And it's really weird. I tell a story about my dad's battle with

00:17:41.380 cancer. And then I asked people at the end of it, what were you thinking about? And they're like,

00:17:44.840 well, I'm thinking about my sister's cancer. I'm thinking about my scare with cancer. I was

00:17:48.540 thinking, I hope I don't get cancer. When we tell a story, you're talking about a hundred thousand

00:17:53.780 years of wiring, Ryan, where, you know, we used to sit around fires and we would talk about,

00:17:59.240 you know, if I staggered into the camp, Hey, let me tell you guys why saber tooth tigers make crappy

00:18:03.260 pets. I mean, like you'd lean in and you're listening. Yeah. I want to actually want to hear

00:18:06.740 that story right now. So, but you know, our struggles are where we are the most relatable

00:18:14.480 and you just hit on that. So when we talk about being vulnerable and all that, that's kind of a

00:18:19.160 hard thing to get your head around. My advice is when you're telling a story in the service of others,

00:18:24.420 don't leave out the struggle. That's the gold of the story. I actually want to hit on that because

00:18:29.560 that to me, stories are in the service of others really, really resonates because I think we've

00:18:33.920 all been on the receiving end of the opposite of that, which is, let me just run my mouth and talk

00:18:40.120 about how great I am and how wonderful I am. And you might be telling a story, but you're not really

00:18:45.320 serving others. You're trying to serve yourself. That's so true. And that's the difference between

00:18:50.680 a storyteller and a speaker. Someone who's a storyteller is telling a story to serve the people

00:18:57.700 in front of them. And, you know, in the storyteller's triangle, there is the teller,

00:19:02.580 the audience and the story. And as the teller, you have an obligation to have a relationship with

00:19:07.560 your story. You're alive, you're in it. It's a living, breathing thing that you share with others

00:19:11.700 and you have a relationship with the audience. And then the audience has a relationship with your

00:19:16.660 story and they get to choose whether or not they buy what you're selling or what you're talking

00:19:21.680 about. And when you do it in the service of others, what I've found is that levels of empathy

00:19:27.280 and reciprocity and human connection that come out of that are immeasurable. And if you can do it in

00:19:35.880 a one-on-one setting with your boss, with your teenager, like, or your 10-year-old son, like you

00:19:40.580 did, or in a big room with a TEDx talk, as long as you're in the service of others and you're telling

00:19:46.540 that story to help other people, nine times out of 10, you're going to have a great result.

00:19:50.920 I also think this is probably the distinguishing factor between somebody who is sharing some past

00:19:58.320 struggles to lift somebody else up and somebody who's simply whining and complaining. Again,

00:20:04.500 it's about the motive. Is this trying to lift me up as the whiner slash complainer,

00:20:08.400 or am I telling this story so somebody else can be lifted out of their own struggles?

00:20:13.520 It's a great point, Ryan. And in my rooftop leadership group that I have,

00:20:17.340 I have, you know, a lot of leaders. For example, one of them, his name is Eric. He lost his teenage

00:20:22.620 daughter Zoe to suicide. That guy has every reason in the world to just shut down, right? I mean,

00:20:28.220 just go to ground and just say, screw it. But instead, what he does is he is a speaker and a

00:20:34.480 trainer on resilience, and he helps people find not just an ability to survive grief, but to thrive in

00:20:42.040 it. And guess what story he tells? Well, guess which one he leads off with? Finding his daughter Zoe in the

00:20:46.580 closet. The work that he had to do to get there and to be able to do that is almost indescribable.

00:20:52.660 It's not enough time on this podcast to talk about that, but what it is living proof of,

00:20:56.420 and I've seen it over and over again, and I've done it with my own survivor's guilt from combat,

00:21:01.200 is we can leverage our trauma to serve others through story. I'm an absolute believer in that.

00:21:07.860 I want to get to that because I think there's a lot of people who deal with that at varying degrees.

00:21:11.440 Before we do, I want to drill deeper a little bit into this because, and I'll tell you from my own

00:21:16.780 personal experience that the most frequent feedback that I get from people who are listening to this

00:21:24.440 podcast and tuning into what we're doing is, Ryan, I really resonate with you. And it's not because

00:21:30.420 you hit this new PR on your deadlift or you ran that event or whatever. It's always because you shared

00:21:37.720 the separation with your wife or because you shared how you used to be 50 pounds overweight and you've

00:21:43.900 lost that weight and kept it off for three or four years. Those are the stories that connect people to

00:21:48.800 this movement more so than look at me, look how wonderful and great I am because man, Lord knows

00:21:53.740 I've got a long way to go.

00:21:55.400 We are drawn, Ryan, to authenticity. We are drawn to people who are in the grind and in the struggle of

00:22:03.260 everyday life. If you think about the movies that you love, for example, Rocky, imagine if Rocky,

00:22:08.840 if the whole movie, if, you know, started off with him knocking out Apollo Creed and then kissing

00:22:13.100 Adrian right in the beginning, we'd walk out of the theater. You know, we locate each other in our

00:22:17.340 struggles. We're wired for struggle and authenticity and clarity and transparency and, and, you know,

00:22:25.480 struggle. If you just kind of keep those close to your heart and invoke them when you communicate to

00:22:32.640 other people and be willing to do that, it's amazing the growth and the connection and the

00:22:37.920 movements that you can incur with that. The irony is the more you talk about how great you are and

00:22:43.540 how perfect everything is and the sea full of selfies out there on social media, we can't connect to

00:22:48.480 that. It's completely dismissible and unwatchable.

00:22:51.660 Sure. Sure. I want to go back to a phrase that you used because I think it was, it would have been

00:22:56.060 easy to overlook or even just tune this podcast out because you said it and that was buy what you're

00:23:01.320 selling. And I think a lot of guys might hear that and think, well, you know, I'm not in a sales

00:23:05.800 position or I'm not trying to grow a business, but I think buy what you're selling could also be

00:23:10.740 proposing to your potential wife. It could be trying to get your children to buy into the family

00:23:18.860 vision. It could be that you're asking for a job promotion and there's so many ways to quote unquote

00:23:26.720 sell yourself, if you will. And it's not just about physical products and services and business,

00:23:32.260 right? I mean, we're talking about everything here.

00:23:35.500 Yeah, absolutely. Daniel Pink in his book to sell as human says that one out of nine Americans in the

00:23:40.180 workplace are involved in true sales, but the other eight out of nine spend 40% of their day

00:23:46.000 training, inspiring, moving, influencing, you know, moving people to take action in their lives that

00:23:52.960 they otherwise wouldn't do 40%. And I think that's absolutely true. You know, the definition of

00:23:58.340 negotiations by Stuart Diamond is two or more people coming together to meet each other's goals

00:24:04.480 or to meet their goals. I mean, life is about transactions, isn't it? And, and it's meeting other

00:24:10.360 people's goals and meeting our own goals and how we communicate that to other people in the form of

00:24:15.760 narrative is absolutely essential to moving people to take action. Whatever that action is, whether that's

00:24:22.020 your teenage daughter coming home from curfew on time, or whether it's getting someone to invest

00:24:26.580 in your nonprofit, we have to move people to take action. And story is a heck of a vehicle to do

00:24:32.260 that. I really think it is. And what you're talking about here is obviously creating win-win

00:24:35.960 situations. I can't, the negotiation can't come at the expense of somebody else. Otherwise it'll fall

00:24:40.920 apart. One of the things you were talking about is communicating across cultures, right? Especially

00:24:46.280 when you're in the Middle East and there's different cultures, but it even happens here. You know,

00:24:49.720 you think about political differences or cultural differences or religious philosophies and

00:24:56.160 viewpoints. And I think at the end of the day, most of us want the same things, right? We all want the

00:25:02.600 same thing. Now, how we go about getting those is different. And of course we have these other

00:25:05.800 little things that cloud our thoughts and judgment, but I think story kind of transcends politics and

00:25:11.480 cultural differences and religion for the most part. Yeah, I think that's right. In fact,

00:25:16.440 in the book game changers, I list four game changers that we used in those rough tribal areas. And the

00:25:21.320 one that I teach today, Ryan, whether it's corporate America, whether it's your entrepreneurship,

00:25:27.260 I don't care. Any situation where you're trying to meet your goals or you're trying to move someone

00:25:32.380 to take action, the golden rule is this, meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.

00:25:37.600 If you're able to do that, really truly see the pictures in their heads first, before you lay out

00:25:42.760 your agenda, before you tell your story, before you state your goals, you will almost guaranteed

00:25:49.840 establish a human connection that will leverage at least enough reciprocity for them to get ready

00:25:56.540 to listen to your goals. It's just a really effective way to engage people, meet them where

00:26:01.380 they are first, not where you want them to be. And it costs you nothing. This is really interesting

00:26:06.760 because I think a lot of men and myself too, let's be honest, have this tendency to want to

00:26:12.280 strong arm conversations and coerce and manipulate people into doing things. And then just put up the

00:26:18.040 stance like, I'm not moving. I'm staying here. They can come meet me over here. If they want to,

00:26:23.040 you won't ever be able to move somebody towards your perspective. If you weren't willing to come to

00:26:29.000 some common ground and come to the tape, the negotiation table, if you will give a little,

00:26:34.360 get a little and move that way. The phrase rooftop leadership that defines my whole organization,

00:26:41.900 I named that after watching team after team after team in Afghanistan, inspire tribal locals to go up

00:26:50.360 on their own rooftops and stand shoulder to shoulder with green berets and seals and infantrymen. When they

00:26:56.400 didn't have to do it, they chose to do it under the most dire circumstances. And it took time and it was

00:27:01.620 clunky. You know, it was leadership where people chose to follow. I think there's really something

00:27:07.940 to that. If you try to, you know, if the only tool in your kit bag is a hammer, well, then every problem

00:27:13.700 you face is a nail. And, you know, after a period of time, what ends up happening is you just create

00:27:19.100 social insurgents all around you. I mean, that's just human nature. If you tell me to do something,

00:27:25.020 then I'm going to resist you. But if you remind me of what's important, then I'll choose to value it and

00:27:33.080 meet you where you are.

00:27:34.800 Yeah, I think this actually comes back to you. And I can't remember the exact term that you used. Did you say

00:27:38.520 storytelling triangle? I took a note. I'm not sure if that's the right term. Okay. Yeah. I think there's this

00:27:43.600 really interesting thing where the communicator, I think you said the teller, believes that it's up to the

00:27:51.940 audience to understand the message and correct me if I'm wrong. But from my perspective, if you're

00:27:57.280 trying to communicate a message, the ability to effectively communicate the message is not on the

00:28:02.820 listener. It's on you as the deliverer of that message. So you've got to change tactics every

00:28:07.300 once in a while to make that land. Yeah, absolutely. You need to have complete clarity of your message

00:28:12.800 all the time. That's your job. In fact, people are drawn to clarity, right? I mean, it's one of the

00:28:17.880 things that I teach is that, you know, if you really want to move people to take action,

00:28:21.700 you got to be crystal clear on what you're building. I like to tell folks, you know,

00:28:25.800 talk about what you're building, right? This is what I'm building. Help me build it. And as humans,

00:28:30.500 we're drawn to that. We're social creatures and we were drawn to that. So yes, you got to be clear

00:28:34.960 on that. What I was saying was, as the teller, you have a relationship to your story and your message,

00:28:40.860 and you also have a relationship to the audience, a connection to them. But the audience also has a

00:28:47.600 relationship to your story. And ultimately, it's their choice. It's not yours as to whether or not

00:28:54.120 they embrace your story. And if you think about it, that's kind of a relief because it keeps you

00:29:00.080 from overreaching. And it ultimately lets them be the ones to choose.

00:29:04.380 Well, and I think it takes a little bit of a faith and belief in other people knowing that

00:29:09.820 these people are intelligent enough to make their own decisions. You know, I think leaders

00:29:16.500 sometimes have the tendency to think, I know it's in everybody else's best interest when they have

00:29:22.080 no idea of what this individual may be experiencing. We've got to have faith and a little belief that

00:29:26.700 people are going to make good decisions for themselves and the people they're responsible for.

00:29:31.820 I agree. Tomorrow, I'm going to go to Fannie Mae in DC, and I'm going to give a talk about

00:29:36.080 overcoming the challenges of change. And so I'm going to tell stories from my experience in Special

00:29:42.980 Forces that I saw where change was very prolific and very challenging. I'm going to give all of

00:29:48.900 myself to that story, Ryan. I'm going to physicalize it. I'm going to go back there. I'm going to even

00:29:54.020 revisit some things that are a little hard for me to revisit. But I'm going to give myself to that

00:29:59.980 story and the tell, and I'm going to do everything I can to connect with one person at a time in that

00:30:04.500 room and just constantly ask myself, what do they need? Am I giving it to them? When I'm done with

00:30:10.840 that, I'm going to walk away wishing I had done a better job. And ultimately, they can decide whether

00:30:17.080 or not it served them. And that's just how it goes. Gentlemen, just a quick break before we get back

00:30:23.980 to the conversation. You've heard me talk about this before, and you're probably not going to have

00:30:28.040 to hear me talk about it much more as we have our inaugural Order Man Legacy event that's coming up

00:30:33.260 this fall. Guys, if you have a son between the ages of 8 to 15, you are not going to want to miss

00:30:39.260 this experience. Creating a rite of passage for my sons has been instrumental in helping usher them

00:30:45.240 into manhood. And I recognize a need for that type of experience outside of the walls of my home. And

00:30:50.060 that's why on September 20th through the 23rd, 2018, I'm inviting you to join me in the mountains of

00:30:56.900 Southern Utah for a physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding week for you and your son or your

00:31:02.140 sons. You're going to learn some new skills, gain access to the resources and framework that will

00:31:07.120 help you and your son become better men. And you'll have the opportunity to compete with 19 other

00:31:11.640 fathers and sons in some incredible exercises and activities. So if you are interested, get signed

00:31:18.320 up quickly. Space is running out. We only have seven more spots left, so you've got to do it quick.

00:31:23.140 You can learn more. You can lock in that seat. Again, the dates are September 20th through the

00:31:27.120 23rd, 2018. And you can get locked in at order of man.com slash legacy. Again, that's order of

00:31:33.760 man.com slash legacy. So get signed up after the show. In the meantime, we'll get back to the

00:31:38.960 conversation with Colonel man. Let's talk about your story a little bit because you had talked

00:31:44.520 about having some survivor guilt and I'm sure there's a lot more to that. How did you begin to

00:31:50.280 take the, I'm sure horrific things that you've seen and dealt with and struggled with and go from

00:31:58.300 turning that inward? I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong,

00:32:02.200 but turning that inward to allowing it to get to you versus turning it outward and allowing it to

00:32:08.080 serve other people. And again, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

00:32:11.980 You may have a different way of saying that. You phrased it very well and eloquently,

00:32:15.900 and I appreciate you taking the time to do that. When I, when I got out of the military five years

00:32:20.360 ago, the first couple of years after I retired were pretty dark. I lost, you know, a lot of

00:32:25.740 friends as many of us did. Some of them died doing what I asked them to do. And I don't think that's

00:32:31.040 anything I'll ever get over, but it took me to some very dark places. It, um, it really affected my

00:32:36.020 marriage. It affected how I raised my kids. I'll be honest with you. I, I, I'm, you know, I don't know

00:32:41.860 how I made it through that time. And there were times when I didn't think I would and I would just

00:32:45.940 check out. But along the way, I met some people who helped me find my voice again. And by find my

00:32:54.520 voice, I mean, reconnect to my purpose and something bigger than me and why I came in special forces and

00:33:01.120 realizing that the army didn't get to keep my purpose. That's mine. The tracks that I leave in

00:33:05.760 this world were mine when I came in the army and they're mine when I leave. And, and I just started to

00:33:10.780 reconnect to that and find my voice, Ryan, and to tell my story. I just knew I needed to,

00:33:15.340 to kind of rediscover my own story, my origin story about how I became a Green Beret, what I

00:33:21.500 learned in the process, the men who, you know, went on and didn't make it home and incorporate

00:33:26.460 them into it and what I learned. And as I started to do that, I was really thrilled that people

00:33:31.180 actually wanted to hear it and that there could be service and lessons in that in leadership. And

00:33:36.060 so we even started a nonprofit called the hero's journey, where we help out other warriors

00:33:40.420 rediscover their purpose again and tell their story, whether it's to talk to their families

00:33:45.260 or an employer in an interview. That's how I met Phil. Stories saved my life, man. That's all I

00:33:49.860 know to say. What do you consider to be your purpose now? Maybe it's the same. Maybe it's

00:33:54.540 changed. What do you consider that to be? To make a difference bigger than myself in this world from

00:34:00.060 the bottom up, you know, and I do it in a range of ways. Now I don't do it as a Green Beret anymore.

00:34:04.960 I do it in trying to suggest better ways to fight violent extremism. I do it training leaders here

00:34:10.980 in America at corporate and entrepreneurial levels on rooftop leadership, and I do it on

00:34:15.120 helping veterans come home. So I have a pretty vast body of work like you, but my purpose is to

00:34:21.340 make a difference bigger than myself from the bottom up. That's my purpose. And that will always

00:34:25.840 be true north on my compass. What would you tell a man who's listening to this, who

00:34:30.620 is overcoming his own trials, whether that's war like you are or a potential divorce, or maybe a

00:34:39.100 spouse has died or they've lost a job, somebody who's really struggling, who needs to reconnect

00:34:45.820 with their purpose? What would be the first step? What do they do? The first thing I would say to them

00:34:51.060 is you are definitely here to do something bigger than yourself. There's something there bigger than

00:34:57.260 you. That's not a casual thing. That's a birthright. And each one of us is obligated to find what that

00:35:04.940 is. And the struggle that you're going through is a potential gift to so many people. I have a friend,

00:35:11.700 Romy Camargo, who's a quadriplegic ventilator dependent, wounded in Afghanistan. And he runs a

00:35:18.040 nonprofit center for veterans and civilians for spinal cord injury. And he's treated over 70 people.

00:35:23.360 Five have walked. Half have been veterans. And he can't move from the shoulders down.

00:35:27.720 And he struggles every day. But he'll tell you that bullet saved his life. It gave him

00:35:31.920 that purpose that's bigger than him and a reason to get up every morning. And I've just seen it over

00:35:37.060 and over again. And in the darkest of times, I believe it's those struggles that make the greatest

00:35:42.500 stories and that define us and give us the gifts that serve other people. Because as bad as you're

00:35:47.300 hurting, I guarantee you, there's somebody hurting worse. And if you just look for them and serve,

00:35:53.360 you'll find your way out of it.

00:35:55.400 What do you say to yourself when you're having a day where maybe you're revisiting some past

00:35:59.800 memories or getting down on yourself, beating yourself up over something? How do you decide,

00:36:04.500 no, I'm going to get out of bed today. I'm going to go at it. I'm going to attack it. And I'm going

00:36:07.780 to get after this thing.

00:36:09.120 Man, you're asking some questions that are putting me on the floor here.

00:36:11.760 Well, you know, and...

00:36:12.940 No, it's good.

00:36:13.720 Yeah, it is. And guys are experiencing... You know as well as I do, men are experiencing this stuff. So

00:36:18.400 it's important we discuss it.

00:36:19.820 Yeah, no, it's great, man. You know what I do, man, is I tell myself,

00:36:24.260 you know, that Vic and Jerry and Job and all the guys that are not here would kick my ass

00:36:31.340 if I sat around here and just did nothing. They're not here and I am here and I have

00:36:37.200 the opportunity to do something. Maybe it's just the blessing of being in special forces long enough.

00:36:42.600 I saw what a small group of guys can do when they believe in each other and when they believe

00:36:47.300 in something bigger than themselves. And, you know, I was usually a witness to it, not as much

00:36:51.940 a participant as the heroes that didn't make it back, but I saw it and I just, that's what I do.

00:36:56.500 I just tell myself, look, you're here, man. You don't know how much time you got,

00:36:59.720 but you're here to do something.

00:37:01.820 What role does brotherhood play in your life now? I mean, obviously in the military,

00:37:06.380 and I saw this in my own transition out of the military. And I know there's countless men and

00:37:11.920 women who have experienced this as well. They don't have that camaraderie that they once had. 1.00

00:37:17.540 What does that look like now for you on the civilian side?

00:37:21.280 God, I missed it so bad. I missed it so bad. It was probably the thing I missed more than anything.

00:37:26.340 So, you know what I did? I formed this group called Spartans Rising and there's about 75 of us.

00:37:32.200 We meet twice a year. It's a retreat. We go out to the woods in old Florida for two days and we

00:37:38.800 talk about servant-based leadership and we talk about storytelling and impact and it's a true

00:37:44.380 brotherhood. And I try to bring all the skills I learned as a Green Beret for interpersonal

00:37:48.720 communications and team building and give it to them so they can be better husbands, fathers,

00:37:53.260 brothers, leaders. That's what I've done is I just said, you know what, man, I'm going to go find

00:37:58.860 other guys like me and I'm going to build a tribe. And we did. And we've been at it for

00:38:02.020 two years now and it's frigging awesome. And it, again, probably one of the things that saved my

00:38:06.920 life. It's interesting. We just wrapped up a little bit ago, our uprising event, which is a

00:38:13.200 three and a half day immersive experience. We bring guys in from all over the country.

00:38:17.960 We even have a similar name, Spartans Rising and Uprising. And it is pretty powerful when you band

00:38:23.320 men together towards a common objective and purpose. You bet it sure is. We need it, don't we?

00:38:29.020 Oh, a hundred percent. And I don't know where this come from. I don't know if, if it's been

00:38:34.280 glamorized by the big screen or whatever it may be that this idea that we've got to be the lone wolf,

00:38:39.800 right? That we've got to go out alone. And if we, if we ask for help or we ask for assistance or we

00:38:45.520 band together with another man, or we call somebody up and say, Hey man, I'm really struggling over here

00:38:49.740 that somehow it makes us more weak or less, less manly. And you're talking about humans and going back

00:38:57.120 hundreds of thousands of years. Like we've always operated in packs and tribes up until recently,

00:39:02.860 you know, we're more connected than we've ever been in the history of the world. And yet there

00:39:08.140 is a huge disconnect, especially among men that's created some real problems. You look at suicide

00:39:13.220 rates and you look at depression and it's just, it's absolutely crazy. And I think it stems a lot

00:39:18.680 from us trying to go at it alone.

00:39:19.900 We're too isolated and humans are the most social creatures on the planet. We're actually

00:39:24.620 designed to form teams and you know, nobody wins alone. There's just no way. The one thing I would

00:39:30.740 just add to what you just said very well was, you know, the other thing is we got to make sure that

00:39:35.620 we're looking in our brother's eyes all the time. I've lost six friends to suicide in the last two

00:39:40.700 years, man. And we got to look in each other's eyes and make sure, Hey, you okay? You know, I mean,

00:39:45.580 I don't think we can take that for granted anymore. A lot of us are out there operating,

00:39:49.960 trying to operate alone and unafraid, and it's not healthy. It's not good. And you know,

00:39:55.100 part of being your brother's keeper is taking a more aggressive role and making sure that you're

00:39:59.720 looking in your brother's eyes and making sure he's okay.

00:40:02.360 That's a good point. I think there's a lot of people though, that are afraid to do that

00:40:05.620 because they're worried about what somebody might think. You know, like if I called and noticed,

00:40:11.320 for example, something was going on with you and I called you up and I said something,

00:40:14.500 then there's this thought maybe that I have that somehow you'll be upset or offended or I'll

00:40:20.620 jeopardize our friendship. And so we're so scared to do what we know we probably should be doing to

00:40:26.220 help each other out. It's true. It's true. And I just think we got to get past that. We got to get

00:40:31.500 over that. We got to over communicate and put the devices down and get back. I say, I tell men,

00:40:38.300 get back to your nature. The more connected you are to your nature, the more relevant you are,

00:40:43.020 even more so in this transactional world. You have a huge edge.

00:40:47.320 What do you mean by get back to your, you're not talking about the outdoors. You're talking about

00:40:50.940 human nature, masculinity. I mean, what are you talking about?

00:40:54.480 I'm talking about human nature. I'm talking about that understanding of the visceral primal

00:40:59.280 components that define us. 80% of who we are as humans and men is below the surface, below the

00:41:06.020 waterline. It's the elements of honor and status and vengeance and resource scarcity and narrative

00:41:12.540 and physicality. There's a whole, that's almost another topic, but there's this whole, and I teach

00:41:18.360 this in law enforcement, special forces. There's a whole element that 80% of what we are is below the

00:41:25.180 surface. It's primal, but it's still exactly the same as it was 250,000 years ago. It has not changed.

00:41:34.140 Isn't that interesting? I think there's a lot of people who say that modern times have changed us

00:41:39.200 or who we are. And I think there are some things that certainly have changed, no doubt, but I think

00:41:43.860 human nature, masculinity, femininity is pretty consistent with the way it's always been. Although

00:41:49.640 the way we go about approaching those obligations, responsibilities, and duties may change through

00:41:54.720 the course of time. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, we've evolved socially more in the 250,000,

00:42:00.880 last 250 years than we have in the last 250,000 years that modern man's been around. But let's face

00:42:07.420 it, when that phone goes off, that's just dopamine juicing through your body the same way when we used

00:42:12.380 to grab for a banana. Cortisol, oxytocin that promotes trust, reciprocity, empathy, resource

00:42:19.320 scarcity, all those drivers are just as primal as they've ever been. They're just kind of going haywire

00:42:26.560 in a transactional society because we've lost touch with our own nature. We don't know who we are

00:42:30.540 anymore. Yeah, I think that's why that reset, specifically even like a technology reset,

00:42:35.160 which is ironic because everybody's listening to this podcast using that technology. So there's

00:42:38.520 value for sure. But I think having some of these resets are also really, really valuable.

00:42:43.540 They are. The technology's there. It's helpful, but it's even more helpful if you're connected to

00:42:49.020 your nature and you understand how status and honor and reciprocity and story and active listening,

00:42:56.200 if you know how all those work and then you let that to inform your use of technology,

00:43:01.300 now you're a relevant kind of guy. Right, right. Well, we could go on about this all day for the

00:43:07.040 sake of time. Is there anything that maybe I should have asked or should have covered that I did not

00:43:11.400 cover that would benefit the men listening? I appreciate you letting me be on, Ryan. And I would just say,

00:43:16.120 any opportunity you have to tell your story, even if you're given a PowerPoint presentation to your

00:43:21.420 boss, start with a story. And any opportunity you have to ask someone for their story, whether it's

00:43:27.180 a new arrival to your team, you're recognizing someone for achievement, or even talking to your

00:43:33.260 kid about how his day was, ask open-ended questions that let people tell you their story. That's called

00:43:38.920 narrative competence, and it will really help you be the most relevant person in the room in this day

00:43:44.560 and age. And that's what people follow. Right on. Well, speaking of open-ended questions,

00:43:48.980 let me ask you a couple here. Number one, what does it mean to be a man?

00:43:53.260 It means connecting to your nature. I think knowing where you've come from,

00:43:57.460 where you are now and where you're going and complete clarity on that, or at least a quest for

00:44:02.460 that clarity. And how do we connect with you? If we want to learn more about storytelling,

00:44:06.540 rooftop leadership, how do we get ahold of you? Yeah, just go to rooftop leadership.com.

00:44:11.500 I'm constantly putting new content out there on all of this kind of stuff and would love to have

00:44:17.080 folks join up with the tribe. Right on. Well, Colonel, man, I appreciate you. I appreciate

00:44:20.880 you joining us today. Of course, your service to this nation and each of us individually,

00:44:25.620 and I'm looking forward to getting to know you better. Thanks for spending some time with us.

00:44:29.400 Thank you so much, Ryan. And thank you for what you've built and for all the guys out there

00:44:32.800 listening and gals. Thanks a lot. And it's just an honor to be on. God bless you.

00:44:36.480 Gentlemen, there it is. My conversation and discussion with Lieutenant Colonel Scott, man,

00:44:42.900 I know that you are walking away with so much valuable insight and how to be a more effective

00:44:48.520 leader, but look, let's face it. Unless you're willing to implement and apply the lessons being

00:44:54.320 learned, it's really not going to help all that much. So I want you to take everything that you

00:44:59.460 learned in this podcast through this discussion and actually apply it, apply it with your families

00:45:04.420 and leading your spouses and leading your kids, apply it in the business and leading your employees

00:45:09.040 and, and potentially even your bosses and coworkers. The more that you apply this stuff,

00:45:13.360 the better off you will be and the better off your teams will be. So please let me and Colonel man

00:45:18.820 know how you are applying this information, how you are becoming a better leader. It's always good

00:45:24.080 to know that our work is meaningful and significant, and you're actually using it to improve

00:45:28.720 your lives. So hit me up on Facebook and Twitter at order of man or Instagram. And I've been very,

00:45:36.520 very active over on Instagram lately. You can do that at Ryan Mickler. My last name is spelled M I C H

00:45:41.900 L E R. So that's at Ryan Mickler. Let me know, let Colonel man know what you think. And, uh,

00:45:47.260 we'll go from there. I hope that it's been helpful for you. Uh, I'm going to sign out for today,

00:45:51.580 but in the meantime, please go ahead and take a look at our legacy event. That's for fathers and sons

00:45:56.860 between the ages of eight to 15. It's going to be an amazing, amazing three and a half day

00:46:02.140 experience that will help you and your son forge a tighter bond and then help you usher him as a

00:46:07.240 young man into manhood guys. I'm going to sign out with that today. I appreciate you being on this

00:46:12.660 journey of reclaiming and restoring what it means to be a man. I could not possibly do this

00:46:17.380 without you. So until Friday, take action and become a man. You are meant to be.

00:46:22.420 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

00:46:27.860 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - June 26, 2018

171： Leading From the Top ｜ Lt. Col. Scott Mann

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