5 Archetypes of Immature Masculinity ｜ FRIDAY FIELD NOTES
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Summary
In this episode, I discuss the difference between masculinity and manliness, and why masculinity is not inherently good or inherently bad, and how to change the narrative of the conversation about what is and is not a good guy.
Transcript
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Five archetypes. Ask yourself if you have tendencies in any of these archetypes because
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there are five traps. Five versions of a man that look different on the surface but share the same
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root. Which one closely describes you? The reason I laid this out is to give you something to judge
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yourself on not other men on. It's to give you a mirror. This is a mirror. Then you're going to be
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ahead of the guys who aren't willing to look in the mirror. Most guys spend their whole lives in
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this trap because they never named it and you are naming it today and this weekend.
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Men, masculinity is not inherently good, but it's also not inherently bad.
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This is something that I've talked about at length, and I've got a lot of guys who disagree
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with me because they believe one camp or the other, that it's inherently good or that it's
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inherently bad. Well, it's neither. I'm going to make that case for you today. Essentially,
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the way that I view masculinity is as a force, like fire. It's useful, right? We would all agree
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that fire is useful. It's necessary. And it's even powerful when it's directed towards positive
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aims, but it can also be destructive when it's not. And that distinction really, really matters
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because we as men have spent years in our current modern culture arguing about whether masculinity
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itself is the problem. It's not. If you look at the definition of masculinity, it's simply
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a set of characteristics that we as men possess due to our biological makeup. That's it. It's
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hormonal. That's it. It's not the problem. The problem is what men do with their masculinity.
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The problem is the patterns that men fall into when that force that could potentially be used
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for good goes undirected or directed towards something evil or undisciplined, or like I said,
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just misdirected entirely. And that's what this conversation is about today. It's the conversation
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about masculinity versus manliness. And this is the distinction that I really hope men lock in
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before we get into the archetypes I'm going to address, because it's going to reframe the way
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that you look at everything. And I really want to change the narrative. I don't want to hear
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somebody say anymore that masculinity is inherently good or that it's inherently bad.
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It's just a set of characteristics determined by our biological makeup. It's not socially
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constructed. It's biologically constructed. And manliness is supported societally because it
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works and it really isn't until the relative ease of modernity that women and cowards have even been
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able to call into question what manliness actually is because if you if you strip everything away
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let's take away power let's take away internet let's take away modern creature comforts let's
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take away air conditioning let's take away vehicles and combustion engines and put you into
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a hostile environment where enemies are actively working against you or nature and god is working
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against you in some way women and weaklings turn to manly men they do when it really hits the fan
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nobody ever says where's the strongest woman in the room they don't do that what they do is they
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look for the strongest man and that distinction is very very important because again what i said
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is that masculinity is amoral it has no built-in ethics you know we've been on this planet as as
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as homo sapiens for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years we can look at all sorts
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of examples where we would say that behavior is masculine but it may not be manly and the
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alternative is that that behavior is masculine and it's manly masculinity is the raw material
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it's the drive it's the aggression it's the competitiveness it's the dominance
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it's the territorialness the protectiveness the competitive fire that all of us inherently
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possess inside of us. Every man has it to some degree. Again, it's biological. It's real.
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And there's nothing necessarily wrong with it, but masculinity on its own doesn't make you a good
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man. David Gilmour made this assertion in his book, Manhood in the Making, and Jack Donovan
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actually talks quite a bit about it as well, that there's a difference between being a good man
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an element of virtuousness or righteousness in it.
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It's usually from the woman who dumped the guy.
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Or it's the boss who's like, you know, he's just a really good guy, but he's not getting the promotion.
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Or your kids or your friends or your colleagues or your co-workers think you're really nice.
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the same way it's the same way that being physically strong doesn't just inherently
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make you a great fighter it's just the capacity and manliness is different than masculinity
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manliness is what happens when a man takes that
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that raw masculine energy and he refines it through his character through his discipline
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through through purpose it puts it into work in the service of something beyond himself his
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family his colleagues his clients his co-workers his neighbors his community his country
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manliness is masculinity plus virtuous direction it's masculinity with standards
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masculinity that builds instead of just either dominates or takes away from the environment
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manliness is something that projects instead of just controls it leads instead of just commands
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and dictates the ancient greeks actually had a word for this it's called rsa and it's typically
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translated as virtue or excellence but the original meaning of the word is closer to
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it's hard in translation but it's it's it's more like
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the the the full expression of a thing's highest function i mean that's a good good way to say it
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the full expression of a thing's highest function
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uh the arate for example of a knife is to cut cleanly
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by the way, shameless plug, Montana Knife Company, go check them out because I just
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ordered one of their new folding knives. Amazing. That's a tangent. But the arete of a knife is to
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cut cleanly. The arete of a horse is to run with power and precision. You watch these horses and
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you watch their muscles. It's incredible. The arete of a man, you, is to live and lead
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at your highest possible capacity. That is what manliness is.
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And every archetype we're going to cover today is a version of masculinity, not manliness,
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masculinity without, devoid of manliness. Raw force without any sort of refinement.
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the capacity that you have to do great things but you have low character
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these are the guys who have energy but haven't done the work to direct it to channel it
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it's like the spaghetti on the wall approach you just throw it at the wall and see what sticks
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instead of being sniper like or even worse men who've just abandoned the energy altogether
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and and we call it peace i don't want to rock the boat i don't i don't want to make people feel
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uncomfortable that's feminine behavior guys and in and in women it's beautiful
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women can keep the peace women can make things lovely women can make things enjoyable but they're
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not confrontational dale dale partridge in my podcast i did it with him a couple of weeks ago
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said that there's a difference between feminine behavior and effeminate behavior and the difference
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is that feminine behavior is something lovely in women, but a feminine behavior is men acting like
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women and it's repulsive. And you know, it is because you know, guys who are effeminate.
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All right. So with all that said, let's talk about these five
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immature archetypes of, of manliness. All right. Five traps. So let's name them. Number one
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is what I call the man child. This is the one that I see quite often. And it might be the most
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dangerous because it doesn't really look dangerous at all. This is the man who never fully grows up.
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He's a likable guy. He's the fun guy at the cookout. He's quick with a joke,
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but he's also slow to commitment, right? He's free spirited. He's fun. He's enjoyable. He's
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lively. He just marches to the beat of his own drum. And so it sounds really cool. It might even
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be the guy who's been talking about his business idea for the last six years. Maybe he's in his
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thirties, maybe in his forties, and he's still living like accountability is optional. He's
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never made a name for himself. He's never put any money in his bank account. He's never let anybody.
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He might even still live with his parents. And if he doesn't, his apartment is a mess.
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his finances are a complete disaster his longest relationship ended because she she wanted too
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much and and i don't think the man child is is lazy necessarily he does work he's got hobbies
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he shows up he's excited and energetic about life but only when it's convenient for him
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only when it's fun only when it fits into his schedule but the moment that some factor requires
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sacrifice like a friend needs to help needs help moving or patience for that promotion
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or sustained effort for building a business he just disappears mentally maybe if not physically
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carl young actually talks about this quite often um i i forgive me i'm gonna butcher this this is
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in latin uh he calls it the puerre arturnus again i probably butchered that that's latin for eternal
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youth i've done another podcast years and years ago called peter pan syndrome
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um matthew mcconaughey did a movie on the same subject called failure to lunch
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it's the man who refuses the weight the responsibility of being an adult he wants
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all the freedom of boyhood with all the respect of manhood and he cannot understand why life and
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his friends and his colleagues and his co-workers and his boss and his woman won't give him both
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and here's what guys like this need to know and I really want you to evaluate and ask yourself if
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this is you to some degree boyhood is a stage it's a season I've got three boys I've also got
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a daughter I don't expect my sons to be men I expect them to act like boys with the exception
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of potentially my oldest because he's always been very mature for his age and I have to remind
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myself he's 18 now, but through the years I've had to remind myself he's eight, he's 10, he's 12,
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he's 14, he's 16, he's 18. He's acting his age, which is hard because he acts mature most of the
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time. But the point that I'm making is that boyhood is supposed to end. The Bible talks
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about this often. Put away childish things. If you're a Christian, if you're a believer
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and you're acting like a child then you're not acting in accordance with what the bible says
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and i'm not here to tell you that i always do either i'm just telling you there's a discrepancy
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between the way you're acting and the way god has asked you to show up now i know there might
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be conflicting thoughts where people say well the bible also teaches us to be innocent like a child
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it's not what i'm talking about innocent like a child means the hope and the wonder and the
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curiosity and the positive thinking that children have that's what is being referred to when they
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say the innocence of a child low judgment on other people but when we are commanded to put
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away childish things that means that we're supposed to take responsibility that we're
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supposed to take care of people, that we're supposed to produce more than we consume,
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that not everything is a joke, that there is some weight to the decisions that we're making.
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And that transition from boy to man, guys, it requires you, and I don't know what stage of
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life you're in right now, but it requires you to pick up a burden that you did not carry before.
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It's responsibility for others. This is why getting married and having kids turns boys into
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for some. Some reject it, but some really decide to step up. It's also delayed gratification.
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It's the willingness to do hard things that nobody's cheering for or applauding.
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The man-child is always waiting for permission to grow up.
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He's waiting for the right moment, the right circumstances, the right woman, the right
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inspiration. But that moment never comes, guys. And you know that. I've never in my life been
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100% inspired. I've never in my life met somebody that is 100% perfect. I've never in my life met
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a situation where all of the signs were green and there was no hesitation. I've never had that.
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I don't think you have either. You can correct me if I'm wrong. And the question that you have
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to ask yourself is this, am I really building something or am I just kind of passing time?
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Am I actually solving important problems to me or am I avoiding them?
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Here's another one. Do the people in my life feel more secure because I'm in it or more uncertain?
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They might be laughing and having fun and clapping, but are they more secure or more uncertain?
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Men grow up on purpose. They don't grow up by accident.
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all right number two i beat that one number two is the ghost this is the man who might be
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physically present but he's emotionally and purposely absent and i call him the ghost on
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purpose maybe he pays the bills uh he shows up at dinner by the way guys this is me for a long
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period of time two three four years technically he's there at the game in the bedroom at the at
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the in-laws holiday table but he's not really there he checked out years ago and and it's hard
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sometimes to articulate when you checked out or for others to figure out when you checked out
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you know this is you if your wife has learned not to bring things to you anymore
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that your kids know not to ask for things the ghost has built this life around avoiding friction
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don't ask too much of anyone don't demand too much from yourself keep the peace at all costs
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fly under the radar he's in a way perfected the art of being invisible in his own domain
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your house your business your office wherever you show up
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i remember i was gonna say years ago but decades ago at this point i went to fort
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Oklahoma for basic training I was an artilleryman in the uh in the army national guard
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and I had the opportunity to train with my national guard unit when I was 17 and 18 years
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old before I even went to basic training and I got this advice and it was so invaluable at the
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time but applied broadly it's bad advice and the advice that I got to get through basic training
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was to fly under the radar not to rock the boat not to be too good not to be too bad just kind
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of stay with the average fly under the radar don't let anybody see you that's horrible fucking advice
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guys horrible horrible advice a better way to say that would be to embrace the system right learn
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the system be a good member of the program that's what the military is about it's not to find your
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own individualism. It's to tap into the power of a collective good. But it's not to be average.
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It's like that. And I used to have this quote memorized, but our greatest fear is not that we
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are weak. It's that we were powerful. Because most of the people in our lives, they push us down
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or they pull us down when we get too ahead of our skis and you know what i'd rather be a little
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ahead of my skis and crash than be sitting on my heels and still crash but not get anything done
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the ghost he tells himself that it's strength i don't i don't make problems i don't rock the boat
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and I'm easygoing. But your family doesn't experience that as strength. They experience
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it as absence. Why is dad gone? Why is dad not at my game? Why does my husband not love me?
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Why does he not care about me? What's wrong with him? Why is he not engaged? Is he okay? I'm
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worried about him. If anybody in your life has ever told you that, you're exhibiting characteristics
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of the ghost. You're now indifference. A man who couldn't bother to be lead. And here's what that
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actually will cost you and it did for me in big ways your wife might not feel like she's safe
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not not the danger kind of unsafe but deeper kind the kind where she doesn't really have a man that
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she can lean on because he won't let her he's not going to be that pillar that beacon that stability
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the strength for her maybe his sons grow up without a model for how to engage in this world
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and they're always passive and weak and timid and cowardly and your daughters grow up assuming that
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men are just furniture like you're there but you're not alive you're not a sentient
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fixture of the household and it's probably a man who got burned at some point
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you know he put himself out there maybe emotionally and he got burned maybe relationally
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and she dumped him maybe professionally he got passed over and so it cost him and so he made
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this decision probably unconsciously i'm not gonna let that happen again because if i don't engage i
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can't lose if i don't engage i can't lose right if you never swing the bat you'll never get a fly
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ball that's caught for an hour you'll never get thrown out at first base but you'll strike out
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because you are losing every single day you're just not aware of it happening
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and and what i want the ghost to know is there's a version of leadership that doesn't require
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you to be loud or aggressive or dominant in every room i don't even think that's
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manly necessarily it just requires you to be present engaged willing to be known willing
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to care about something out loud that you can vocalize the men who matter most to the people
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around them are the ones who show up fully not not perfectly but fully
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stop hiding in the corners of your own life and just randomly making little appearances that
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people don't even know are actually quite there or what to attribute it to all right number three
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the third archetype is the tyrant now i want to address the one people assume i'm going to say is
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the goal because it's not it's the tyrant and i'm gonna make a distinction this is the man who has
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confused control with leadership he's dominant yeah sure he's decisive he can make decisions
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he definitely takes charge but underneath all of that there's no vision no service no sacrifice no
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care for the people that he's supposed to be leading. There's just ego. It's just fear and
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it's masquerading as strength. The tyrant rules through intimidation. He keeps people small so
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he can feel big. He makes his own decisions, not because he's the most informed or even capable,
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but because admitting that he doesn't know feels like weakness.
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he confuses the volume of his voice with the quality of his thinking he confuses
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compliance from other people with respect from them
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and the people around him they likely obey but they don't follow i've talked about it often
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compliance versus commitment they comply because they have to not because they want to
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but the moment that that person does not have to comply anymore they they jump ship they abandon
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ship worse they create a mutiny and that tyrant never understands why and then he just pushes
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harder and so it's this nasty cycle but here's the thing about genuine masculine and authority
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it's earned guys it's competence it's consistency it's character it's not intimidation
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it's not the man who has to demand respect from people he hasn't earned it from
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it's not the man who threatens consequences to getting things done what he's actually doing is
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not managing winning he's he's actually in a way managing resentment
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and the tyrant is almost always a very insecure man who's wearing the mask of dominance he's he's
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really terrified that if he shows any level of doubt or uncertainty if he admits that he made
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an error or if he asks for input then he'll be exposed he'll be weakened he'll be diminished
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so he doubles down he gets louder he gets more obnoxious he tightens his grip
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but the strength that you and me are after doesn't require that it doesn't require
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us to have all the answers it doesn't require perfection
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it's you can be strong and say i don't know but i'll find out you can be strong
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and say i was wrong and here's what i've learned from it
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real strength guys can hold people to a standard and still treat others like they matter
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you can be firm without being cruel you can lead without just stomping on people you can hold your
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line without holding people hostage and making sure that they do it like they're your slave they're
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not the goal guys is not to be feared is to be worthy of being followed that's what we're talking
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about in the iron council is how do we take the people who are following us and turn them into
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leaders and it doesn't come from intimidation or fear it comes from credibility and influence
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and authority that they've given to you there's a massive massive difference between those two
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things and every man in your life already knows who you are not just every man but your kids your
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wife they know who you are are you a bully are you a tyrant are you a dictator or are you a leader
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that they want to follow all right number four we got two more number four is the martyr this one
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hits really close to a lot of men and you got to stay with me on this martyrdom sounds great
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right when we look at um nathan hale or jesus christ is the greatest martyr and we look at we
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look at those who have sacrificed for something meaningful we inherently attribute it to good and
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it can be good if you're standing for something righteous but what most guys do is they'll act as
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if they're they're martyr for unworthy causes it's the guy who's turned the sacrifices that
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he's making into a weapon right you work hard really hard you give you carry all the weight
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you show up but you keep score man man do you keep score you don't let anyone forget what you did
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you're suffering how hard it was it's always on display you guys have heard of the humble brag
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it's always on display the exhaustion that you feel is your scorecard this is why if you ask
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a hundred guys on the street today hey how you doing busy busy busy i'm busy busy as if that's
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the goal right your exhaustion is on display every sacrifice is logged and probably eventually
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in an argument at the dinner table or in the bedroom a moment of resentment or in the boardroom
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then you just cash in on it don't you after everything i've done
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nobody appreciates what i do i gave up everything for fill in the blank guys that's not strength
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that's crybaby bullshit this is a transaction that you're logging like a spreadsheet
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you figured out that suffering earns you something
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because if it didn't, you wouldn't act that way.
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maybe it's manipulation, maybe it's moral authority,
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maybe it's compliance like I talked about earlier.
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and this is why I made that dumb decision.
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oh okay well that makes sense and modern society will tell you it's okay it's not okay
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because if you're always the one sacrificing always the one carrying the most
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then you get to absolve yourself of accountability like i did my part i don't know what everybody
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else i don't know i did what i was supposed to do you can't challenge the man who in a way is
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already on his cross but the problem is you nailed yourself to the cross nobody puts you up there
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you did it we actually covered this i think several weeks ago in a friday field notes called
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i think it was something like men who make martyrdom their identity and the core of it
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is this that the martyr uses his pain the same way other men use anger or money or control as
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leverage it's a power move you're you're just trying to wrestle power and you're just wrapping
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up as victimhood, which makes you sound virtuous. And I think it makes you sound weak.
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And here's what makes, I think it particularly destructive. It poisons actual sacrifice. When
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a man genuinely gives, genuinely carries something difficult without needing credit for it, that's
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manliness. That's the difference between a genuine martyr and this faux martyrdom I'm talking about
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right now there are martyrs i'm not saying it's wrong i actually think genuine martyrdom is
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virtuous that a man who does something sacrifices something pays for something up front is willing
00:29:44.260
to take on justice for other people's mercy is virtuous but you know it's not virtue when you
00:29:53.040
need the recognition and accolades and that's arete like i was talking about martyrdom this
00:29:59.880
faux version of martyrdom it corrupts it right you turn you being genuine into guilt tripping
00:30:07.180
you turn endurance into some sort of emotional debt
00:30:11.520
they got that that guy the martyr his family doesn't feel grateful they feel trapped
00:30:17.680
because anytime they say anything it's like walking on freaking eggshells
00:30:22.700
because heaven forbid you know you took out the trash or you worked a little later than you had
00:30:28.520
to and you think you're some great noble martyr you're not you're just doing your work
00:30:38.160
real men give because it's the right thing to do it's what makes them a man not because they're
00:30:44.820
building a case or an argument against their wife or their kids or their colleagues or co-workers
00:30:48.860
or boss just carry the weight put the scoreboard away stop keeping score just carry it like a man
00:30:56.940
all right guys the last archetype i want to talk with you about today is the jester
00:31:01.280
this one's a little hard to spot because from the outside
00:31:06.100
the jester looks like he's doing everything right and i'm talking about the court jester to be
00:31:13.380
specific okay think about what a court jester actually was he performed for kings for nobility
0.95
00:31:19.700
he danced and he joked and he entertained and he made a fool of himself
00:31:23.740
and the whole room loved him right they cheered for him applauded him and clapped and laughed
00:31:29.320
but nobody actually respects the jester like they might laugh at the jester but they all
00:31:35.080
want to be the king nobody followed the jester never nobody brought their problems or trusted
0.93
00:31:43.240
the jester with anything real his entire existence this is also the class clown
00:31:49.780
the entire existence was built around getting other people to cheer that's who this guy is
00:31:56.800
he might even have a following he might have a highlight reel the likes and the comments and
00:32:02.920
the rooms full of people clapping like little seals being entertained and he says all the right
00:32:07.740
things and all the right places at all the right times and he hits every social cue and he massages
00:32:14.880
his identity in real time to whatever he the room needs him to be his brand is dialed in he's got a
00:32:23.920
polished image he's got all the jokes scripted he knows the timing and underneath all of it there's
00:32:30.080
nothing this is why a lot of comedians and i'd have to look at this the data and the research
00:32:35.440
on this but a lot of comedians suffer with depression and mental mental illness because
00:32:43.700
it's their coping humor is their coping mechanism they they developed it so that people wouldn't
00:32:52.220
see through them the comedian or the gesture builds his entire identity on external validation
00:33:01.000
the approval of other people is your guiding compass so to speak and somewhere along the way
00:33:10.800
maybe you've stopped asking if any of it was real because the performance seems to be working
00:33:16.180
and it felt close enough to give you what you felt like you wanted this might be the man who
00:33:23.080
hits 40 and in a moment of quietness wonders if any of it was actually for him
00:33:27.840
the career that he chose because it looked impressive maybe he became an attorney or
00:33:32.900
a doctor or somebody else with some accolades and you thought well this is what i'm supposed to do
00:33:37.840
it's the persona that you've been running for 15 years because it earned you the nod and
00:33:44.900
approval of people's opinion you're not even really sure if you need or want
00:33:49.840
maybe it's even the relationship that felt just kind of bland and transactional
00:33:56.060
because they're always built on what you projected not the real you
00:34:00.000
so our terror called this bad faith i addressed this in a previous podcast
00:34:05.360
performing a role instead of actually living and being it it's really easy relatively speaking to
00:34:13.440
be the jester than it is to do the hard work of figuring out what you believe being willing to
00:34:19.840
say it being willing to have people criticize you or mock you or reject you
00:34:25.640
it's easier to do than figuring out what you actually want who you are when no one's watching
00:34:32.900
and nobody's clapping and nobody's telling you you're okay real men don't perform for the crowd
00:34:39.160
guys they're building something that matters now they take into consideration the people they love
00:34:44.900
and their opinions and their results but they do the right things whether they see anyone sees it
00:34:51.140
or not you got to stop playing to the room you got to start living for the right reasons
00:34:57.400
so let's bring this back let's wrap this all up five archetypes ask yourself if you have
00:35:04.040
tendencies in any of these archetypes because there are five traps five versions of a man that
00:35:08.720
look different on the surface but share the same root it's the common root is a man who has
00:35:17.200
somewhere along the way chose comfort chose avoidance chose performance over the actual
00:35:26.940
honest work of building something real it's the man child like i said earlier who never picked up
00:35:32.860
the weight of adulthood it's the ghost who just disappeared and hid in the shadows it's a tyrant
00:35:38.220
who wanted to control everything but never let any people voluntarily maybe it's the martyr
00:35:43.580
who made sacrifice leverage for his own gain and it's the last the gesture who performed for the
00:35:52.240
crowd instead of building something real. So here's what I want you to sit with this weekend.
00:35:57.540
I'm going to give you two things. Which one closely describes you?
00:36:04.580
Not your worst enemy, not your brother-in-law, not your dad, no, you.
00:36:09.540
The reason I laid this out is to give you something to judge yourself on, not other men on.
00:36:14.940
It's to give you a mirror. This is a mirror. And not all mirrors are as flattering as others.
00:36:49.260
And if you want to take this to the nth degree, then next week we're doing a preview call in the Iron Council where we're going to be talking about these archetypes and we're going to be talking about how to overcome them so we can actually live fulfilled, meaningful, rich, vibrant, significant lives.
00:37:07.100
That's what I want. That's what the guys in the Iron Council want. And I think, in fact, I'd be willing to bet that's what you'd want.
00:37:13.000
so join us at the iron council.com slash preview tuesday june 9th excuse me june
00:37:21.660
9th is it 9th yes june 9th at 8 p.m eastern tuesday june 9th 8 p.m eastern i'd love to see
00:37:28.800
you there all right guys i'm gonna let you go for today but again remember which archetype are you
00:37:36.780
do the self-assessment, take a look at the Iron Council preview, band with us there.
00:37:42.780
We'll be back next week for another great interview. Until then, go out there, take
00:37:46.140
action, avoid these archetypes of immature masculinity, and become a man you are meant to be.
00:37:52.220
Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:37:56.800
and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.