Order of Man - A More Complete Beast

00:00:00.000 What does it mean to be a complete beast? This is a question my guest Jack Donovan

00:00:04.040 attempts to answer in his latest book, appropriately titled, A More Complete Beast.

00:00:08.600 There is a reason the title is likely to resonate with you as a man. Each of us

00:00:12.640 understands that we are both man and beast. Today, we cover so much about the subject of

00:00:17.440 masculinity, including why being a man has to be an intentional choice, the power of what he calls

00:00:23.320 the conquering eye, how to avoid becoming a victim of victims, and how each and every one

00:00:28.720 of us can become a more complete beast. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.

00:00:33.960 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more

00:00:39.660 time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your

00:00:46.900 life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is

00:00:52.600 said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is

00:00:58.200 Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. As I say every

00:01:03.080 single week, I am glad that you are tuning in. We need more men engaged in this fight. More fathers,

00:01:08.840 more husbands, more business owners, more community leaders. I mean, you look around in society,

00:01:13.140 and it has become evident that the gap or the void of real, strong, motivated, ambitious men

00:01:22.560 is very visible, is fully present. And so it's my goal and my objective and my job to help give you

00:01:31.400 the tools and the resources and the guidance and direction to reclaim and restore what it means to

00:01:37.280 be a man in a society that has a hard time understanding why men are relevant, why men are

00:01:44.240 important. And of course, we know they are, but it's my job to bring the mission to the masses.

00:01:49.160 And so with that said, I ask if you're listening in, if you've got any value from this at all,

00:01:54.340 please go on, leave your iTunes rating and review for the show. We're doing a giveaway between now

00:02:00.880 and the end of this month, which is coming up very, very quickly, September, 2018. We're giving away

00:02:07.140 hats, shirts, signed copies of my book, sovereignty, one-on-one calls, you name it. We're giving those

00:02:11.920 away. If you'd be willing to go on and leave a rating and review very quick and easy way to say,

00:02:16.200 thank you for what we're providing here. Again, if you've got any value out of this now, guys,

00:02:20.420 this has been a crazy couple of weeks, just about a week and a half, two weeks ago. Now we got done

00:02:26.280 with our legacy event, which is a father son event. We did that in the Hills of Utah, Southern Utah,

00:02:31.760 which is my hometown, my backyard. And man, what an incredible, incredible event so much so that I'm

00:02:37.540 already thinking about the next one, which is going to be held in spring in the springtime of 2019.

00:02:42.700 So please stay tuned on that because I guarantee that thing will sell out quick based on the

00:02:49.100 feedback we receive, not only from the attendees who a lot of them will be coming back, but also

00:02:54.560 you guys, you listening in and how you can create rites of passages for yourself and your boys. And

00:02:59.340 again, this is called our legacy event. So stay tuned for that. Outside of that, what else? Well,

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00:03:48.380 rash guards, and training gear, head to origin, Maine.com. And this is what you got to do. Use

00:03:52.500 order order at checkout for that 10% discount on anything you get over there. Again,

00:03:58.340 origin, Maine.com use order at checkout. That's it. I think that's all by way of announcements,

00:04:04.040 guys, let's get into the conversation. This is a much requested guest. And I had him on the show

00:04:09.960 about, I want to say it was probably about three years ago. It was one of my very, very first guests.

00:04:14.240 This is a guy that a lot of you are familiar with. And of course I've had him on the show before.

00:04:18.580 His name's Jack Donovan. He is the author of several books. I know a lot of you have read on the subject of

00:04:24.040 modernity and masculinity, including the way of men, a sky without eagles, becoming a barbarian

00:04:31.060 and his latest release, which is a great book. And when we talk about today, a more complete beast,

00:04:36.040 as you may know, Jack is a fascinating man and probably one that you wouldn't expect to hear

00:04:41.740 on this podcast. In fact, I made a joke about Jack, a pagan and myself, a Mormon walking into an

00:04:47.860 ax throwing bar just after this interview that we did that said guys, his views on the subject of

00:04:54.360 masculinity and manliness, although controversial at times resonate with so many of us because

00:04:59.980 they're just spot on and refreshing in a time where more and more of society has a hard time

00:05:06.540 even discussing what it means to be a man. So sit back, take some notes, get ready for a fascinating

00:05:12.000 discussion on the subject of masculinity. Jack, what's up brother? Thanks for joining me on the

00:05:17.160 show today. No problem. Here we are live from the amazing, what is this? Red Lion?

00:05:21.800 Yes, the Red Lion. I think it's the RL they've rebranded.

00:05:24.360 RL. Yes. They've done a wonderful job. It's actually kind of nice. I came here once. I think

00:05:28.660 I've been at this hotel once for a conference or something. So I was glad we could connect.

00:05:31.920 We were actually supposed to do this, what, a couple of weeks ago or last week or something.

00:05:35.220 And I read the book and I was like, no, you're so close and we can just meet somewhere central and we

00:05:40.240 can just do this in person. And I've been doing a lot more interviews. I don't even say interviews

00:05:43.920 anymore. It's conversations in person. It's way better than doing it via Skype, which is what I

00:05:48.640 used to be doing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:50.600 So cool, man. Yeah. I read your book, A More Complete Beast. So awesome. So good.

00:05:55.100 Thank you.

00:05:55.520 Obviously, that's what we're going to be talking about today. But tell me what that even means,

00:05:58.280 because I think that'll set the framework and the premise for the rest of the discussion that

00:06:02.440 we'll have today.

00:06:03.680 A More Complete Beast. It comes from a quote from Nietzsche to begin with. Becoming a more complete man is becoming

00:06:08.960 a more complete beast. They're the same thing. We are creatures that have our own nature.

00:06:12.820 When I talk about becoming a more complete beast, it sounds awesome because everyone wants to be a

00:06:17.280 beast. It does. You've got the marketing and branding side of it down for sure. Because I

00:06:22.160 know guys are going to hear that. Even the podcast title, they're going to be like, I want to listen

00:06:25.060 to this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:26.420 But I know it goes significantly deeper than that.

00:06:28.120 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really not about the deadlifting heavier or whatever. It is about just

00:06:32.220 becoming more of what you are in that quest to become more of what you are as a man. I kind of

00:06:37.140 wanted to investigate that process and making that decision, I think, is very interesting as well

00:06:42.260 because one of the things that we've talked about is that in the modern world, maybe you don't have

00:06:47.620 to be a man. It's not a requirement. Yeah, yeah. Like it used to be, maybe. Yeah, yeah. I mean,

00:06:52.580 there's no bears coming down to kill your family and take your food. Maybe if you live in Baltimore

00:06:57.660 or like... Baltimore, that's the place where bears take people's foods.

00:07:04.260 Metaphorically, I suppose. If you live in a rough neighborhood, then maybe you actually do have to be a

00:07:08.500 lot more concerned with security. There's more risk involved.

00:07:10.860 Yeah, yeah. But I think average guy maybe lives in a cul-de-sac somewhere. No one's out to get you.

00:07:15.140 You know, you can really kind of sleepwalk through life. Never actually have to challenge yourself and

00:07:19.520 be a man and take that role and put yourself in a situation where you're going to be at risk.

00:07:23.660 We're not going to have another great world war where we all are drafted tomorrow to go fight and

00:07:28.440 have this great heroic experience. For the modern man, I think, I guess contemporary man...

00:07:34.160 What would you say? What's the difference when you say,

00:07:35.740 I just need to interrupt, between modern and contemporary?

00:07:39.020 Well, I think modern actually has a kind of place in history, like modernist.

00:07:42.700 Okay, sure.

00:07:42.980 Like it has a little bit of a, more of a charged meaning.

00:07:45.800 Not right now.

00:07:47.040 Yeah, contemporary is just right now.

00:07:48.340 Sure.

00:07:48.620 Guys living right now, you know, if you want to be more manly and be a more complete beast,

00:07:55.000 more of what you are, you're making a choice to do that because no one's forcing you to.

00:07:58.940 Right. Nobody's going to ask you to step up.

00:08:00.500 Yeah, you're not going to have to be initiated in anything. There aren't a whole bunch of people

00:08:03.900 that are going to make you go and behave a certain way. In fact, you're encouraged to not

00:08:08.020 be masculine in many ways.

00:08:09.260 Why do you think that is? I agree with you. I think one of the first things you said is

00:08:13.060 become more of who you are. And yet I think generally society is saying, no, no, no. Don't

00:08:18.640 become more of who you are. Become less of who you are.

00:08:22.420 Most of the messages you get through the mainstream media is to really become more like women.

00:08:26.780 Right.

00:08:27.000 And they don't frame it that way because-

00:08:29.280 Well, it's too obvious.

00:08:30.400 Exactly. Exactly. It's too obvious.

00:08:32.280 Because if you said, hey, be a woman, a guy's going to reject that. If you embrace or try to

00:08:36.980 introduce more effeminate characteristics or qualities into men, like compassion, kindness,

00:08:42.480 love, empathy, those sorts of things that men certainly can display. But if that's all you're

00:08:46.680 asking men to do and be, that's not as challenging or like you said, confrontational as be a woman.

00:08:52.760 Basically, they don't want you to challenge yourself to be a man.

00:08:54.920 Sure.

00:08:55.360 And I think that that's because it makes you a threat to other people. I mean, it's-

00:08:58.700 They view being a man as being a threat? Is that what you're saying?

00:09:00.900 I think so. I mean, imagine if you're, say, the weakest kid in school. And then imagine

00:09:05.940 the people who are the most masculine above you.

00:09:07.740 Sure.

00:09:09.040 There's a mindset that feels kind of oppressed by that.

00:09:11.500 In all fairness, throughout history, the oppression has been perpetrated by those types of individuals.

00:09:17.840 Well, sure. I mean, the strong-

00:09:19.360 But that doesn't make it wrong.

00:09:20.800 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, the strong are going to rule the weak. That's

00:09:24.700 kind of what happens.

00:09:25.260 That's how it goes. So, the better solution is, from my perspective, is not to pull down

00:09:29.860 the strong. It's to lift up the weak. Like, stop being weak.

00:09:32.780 Yeah. Be better. I mean, and I think that that's the choice that we're talking about. Like,

00:09:36.520 do you want to just be the lowest version of yourself? The easy version that lays on a couch,

00:09:41.640 doesn't have to do anything, never gets stronger, never challenges himself, just watches TV?

00:09:46.900 Or do you want to go out and seek those challenges and become a better man by yourself? I think that's

00:09:52.360 the challenge that we're talking about. And if you become better, then imagine all those other

00:09:56.560 people around you who are sitting on the couch. That's kind of threatening to them, right?

00:09:59.400 Sure.

00:10:00.000 It calls out their weakness.

00:10:02.140 Well, you're asking them now to look in the mirror, which is other men and, well, I don't look like that

00:10:06.880 guy and I'm not performing like this guy and I don't have the relationship or the fitness or the

00:10:11.440 wealth or the whatever that the strong usually acquire. Trying to be better doesn't mean that

00:10:16.140 you're going to end up on the top of the mountain. Of course.

00:10:18.320 You know, you can be a better version of yourself. For men, being a better version of yourself is

00:10:23.640 being more masculine, kind of tapping into those qualities that we have.

00:10:27.280 How do you define masculinity? Because I know there's a lot of people out there who confuse,

00:10:32.280 well, from my perspective, the difference between masculinity and manliness, and we can talk

00:10:35.580 about that, or masculinity and men, those are not even the same concepts. So how do you define

00:10:40.480 masculinity? That's kind of the whole project of my first book, The Way of Men.

00:10:44.820 Which we talked about, by the way.

00:10:46.240 Yes.

00:10:46.460 Well, it was a couple of years ago.

00:10:47.820 A long time ago.

00:10:48.460 Right when I very first got started.

00:10:50.580 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I always say, if your building was being surrounded by zombies right

00:10:55.460 now, what would you need from the other guys around you? And I think that's very much how men

00:11:00.020 judge each other and always have, like by those evolutionary characteristics. And I break it down into

00:11:04.960 four tactical virtues, strength, courage, mastery, and honor. Those, I think, are different from cultural

00:11:10.080 ideas about being a man. And that's another distinction I make is being good at being a

00:11:14.520 man, which is that strength, courage, mastery, and honor, and being a good man.

00:11:19.080 Right.

00:11:19.380 Which changes from culture and religion, and they're all different rules, and they change

00:11:23.040 all the time.

00:11:23.580 Sure.

00:11:24.160 And I think both are necessary, too, right?

00:11:26.420 I mean, I think it's important that we have, well, I don't want to say virtuous, because there

00:11:29.900 might be some confusion about what we're talking about. Because you're talking about the four

00:11:32.660 tactical virtues, which is, I believe, application, what a man actually provides and creates,

00:11:37.420 versus philosophically being a good man, what he believes and his morals.

00:11:42.320 And that's why I tried to separate him out, is because it ends up being a big gray area.

00:11:46.420 Because that's not really about being a man anymore. Because, you know, if you're talking

00:11:50.480 about compassion, well, that could be a virtue, and it could be a good virtue to have.

00:11:55.060 But it's not specific to being a man.

00:11:57.040 Right.

00:11:57.440 But are the others, I mean, if you look at the tactical virtues, strength, honor, mastery,

00:12:01.140 courage, I mean, those aren't really specific to...

00:12:03.420 I would say that they are rooted in our biology. I mean, men are statistically stronger than

00:12:09.100 women.

00:12:09.720 Right.

00:12:10.140 I mean, that is one of the things that distinguishes us.

00:12:12.160 Sure.

00:12:12.460 So that doesn't go away.

00:12:13.940 And the argument people always make is, I know this one woman who could kick those other

00:12:19.000 guys' butts.

00:12:19.940 Of course.

00:12:20.440 You're cherry picking.

00:12:21.300 Yeah.

00:12:21.520 You're picking the cream of the crop with one metric, strength, with females, and comparing

00:12:25.260 it to the weakest of the men when it comes to strength.

00:12:27.700 Yeah, I'm sure there are female MMA fighters who have trained their entire life who could

00:12:33.340 beat me up.

00:12:34.200 That's not what we're talking about.

00:12:35.420 Exactly.

00:12:35.520 We're talking about in big groups of people.

00:12:37.460 Right.

00:12:37.560 Because that's what we're generalizing.

00:12:38.680 We're talking about big groups of people.

00:12:40.160 Right.

00:12:40.760 Historically, and I think in any culture anywhere in the world, strength and masculinity are together.

00:12:46.320 Right.

00:12:46.780 Because it is one of the things that defined us.

00:12:48.340 And men are kind of getting weaker today.

00:12:50.700 And I think the sex differentiation is getting smaller.

00:12:53.980 You mean more, maybe you do mean biologically, but just the way that we perform, the way

00:13:00.160 that we behave, the way we act.

00:13:01.680 In what ways?

00:13:02.360 Well, possibly biologically.

00:13:03.620 I mean, there is a decline in testosterone.

00:13:05.480 That's true.

00:13:05.920 That's going down.

00:13:06.660 Sure.

00:13:06.800 And so you can kind of actually see that in people's faces, I think.

00:13:09.780 But again, it's not everybody.

00:13:11.540 It's a trend.

00:13:13.280 Right.

00:13:13.680 You know, there are a lot of different things that you can talk about in that way.

00:13:16.380 I don't know.

00:13:18.760 I think it is really important that we do talk about the tactical virtues, what makes men

00:13:23.240 men.

00:13:23.400 And I think that people get so, for whatever reason, they get so upset when you talk about

00:13:28.600 what it actually means to be a man or masculinity in general, or when you start talking about

00:13:34.700 these tactical virtues.

00:13:36.080 The point that we were talking about earlier is that men aren't needed as much, right?

00:13:41.340 And so I think what you're saying is that this is more of deciding to be a man is more

00:13:46.980 of a decision than a necessity.

00:13:48.780 Yes.

00:13:49.340 How it used to be.

00:13:50.400 Yes, absolutely.

00:13:51.200 How do you begin to step more into this and make it a choice that masculinity and manliness

00:13:57.760 is now a virtue that a guy strives to become more of?

00:14:03.380 I mean, I think those tactical virtues are kind of a good place to start.

00:14:06.660 I mean, obviously, if you're not very strong, that's an easy one to work on.

00:14:10.880 I mean, you can become stronger.

00:14:12.260 That quote, I think it's a repertoire quote that stronger people are just more useful in

00:14:15.440 general or harder to kill.

00:14:17.400 Harder to kill.

00:14:18.000 Yeah, which may or may not be true, but it depends on what you're trying to kill that

00:14:24.340 individual.

00:14:25.060 Yeah.

00:14:25.280 I mean, I've been choked out with my own bicep before, so I don't know if that works.

00:14:28.780 Right.

00:14:28.860 Yeah.

00:14:29.340 There's only so much muscle can do.

00:14:31.160 Exactly.

00:14:31.740 Exactly.

00:14:32.680 Strength can mean a lot of things.

00:14:34.220 You don't want to go down that rabbit hole making everything the same.

00:14:37.740 People do that with definitions, especially today, that all of a sudden, strength can

00:14:42.180 mean anything.

00:14:42.800 I think you actually called me out on that.

00:14:44.620 Oh, really?

00:14:44.940 Because I said something like, what did I say?

00:14:48.260 Oh, I said, humility is strength.

00:14:50.360 Oh.

00:14:50.780 And you're like, no, strength is strength.

00:14:52.440 Humility is a virtue or a characteristic.

00:14:54.340 Right, right.

00:14:54.700 Which is great.

00:14:55.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:14:56.040 But it's not strength.

00:14:57.260 Yeah, yeah.

00:14:57.640 Which I thought was interesting.

00:14:58.580 I was fascinated.

00:14:59.220 It made sense to me.

00:14:59.800 And a lot of feminists do that kind of stuff.

00:15:01.700 Like, strength is whatever we say it is today.

00:15:03.780 Right.

00:15:03.900 Because strength is recognized as a high value.

00:15:06.820 Men do this, and women do this, and everybody does it, and it's a terrible habit.

00:15:11.180 You take a word that has a high value, and then you try and make it mean whatever you

00:15:15.020 already are.

00:15:16.020 Yeah.

00:15:16.720 And it's terrible.

00:15:18.140 Right.

00:15:18.280 It's a bad habit, and it's like, well, strength is strength.

00:15:21.100 And okay, we're going to say that strength is lifting X amount of weight or whatever.

00:15:25.100 Other virtues that you may possess, they're fine too.

00:15:27.580 Also good.

00:15:28.040 But they may not be strength.

00:15:29.920 But I think we do the opposite.

00:15:31.200 You see people, somebody they disagree with, and they'll say, well, you're a Nazi.

00:15:34.580 It's like, do you understand what that word means?

00:15:37.220 Right.

00:15:37.480 Because just because I think X, Y, and Z does not categorize me as a Nazi.

00:15:42.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:43.860 There haven't been a Nazi since 1945.

00:15:45.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:46.100 And so I think we do it both ways.

00:15:47.880 Like, we try to just completely villainize individuals by making them or associating them

00:15:54.120 with words and concepts that have nothing to do with what that individual is thinking

00:15:59.240 or behaving.

00:16:00.360 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:01.460 Exactly.

00:16:02.780 It goes either way.

00:16:03.620 So as far as becoming a more complete beast, I guess, obviously, you can become stronger,

00:16:08.980 and then you can put yourself in situations where you have to do things that you don't

00:16:13.500 want to do.

00:16:14.060 Yeah.

00:16:14.300 You know, for a lot of people, that might be like martial arts and, you know, getting

00:16:17.560 punched in the face.

00:16:18.380 Or even just going to give a toast at a wedding or speak in public.

00:16:21.740 I mean...

00:16:22.060 Something uncomfortable.

00:16:22.860 Right.

00:16:23.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:23.800 It doesn't have to be...

00:16:24.320 I mean, physical is great.

00:16:25.220 You should probably do that.

00:16:26.240 That's important.

00:16:26.880 But it doesn't necessarily have to be only that.

00:16:29.220 Exactly.

00:16:29.680 Exactly.

00:16:30.100 It's just putting yourself in a situation that you feel in danger in some way.

00:16:33.980 My buddy Greg, he's like a former Special Forces guy, and he was like, oh, we should

00:16:38.200 do rock climbing.

00:16:38.840 And I'm like, I'm not a big fan of that.

00:16:40.640 Did you do it, though?

00:16:42.760 We haven't met up yet.

00:16:43.620 Maybe we'll do it.

00:16:44.100 Maybe we won't.

00:16:44.600 I've done a little...

00:16:45.420 You got to do it, man.

00:16:46.240 I did a little belaying or whatever with somebody before and whatever.

00:16:48.740 It's just not my favorite.

00:16:49.840 I'm like, I'd rather get punched in the face.

00:16:51.840 You guys ought to trade.

00:16:52.720 He comes and you get to punch him in the face, and then you'll go rock climbing with him.

00:16:57.300 Anyway, doing things that are outside of your comfort zone and pushing yourself, those

00:17:01.360 are the ways that you become more confident with what you're able to do.

00:17:04.940 Right.

00:17:05.660 That's a big issue, because a lot of guys deal with confidence, and they're like, how do I build

00:17:08.780 confidence?

00:17:09.180 You're not entitled to confidence.

00:17:11.340 There are some people who I believe are maybe a little bit more prideful or arrogant, but

00:17:16.960 I don't even think that's confidence.

00:17:18.420 I think that's an inflated sense of ego.

00:17:20.180 But if you want genuine confidence, you have to earn it by doing things that you didn't

00:17:24.160 previously think you could have done.

00:17:25.780 Absolutely.

00:17:26.620 Absolutely.

00:17:27.260 That's all we're talking about here, really, is gaining that confidence and become a more

00:17:32.140 valuable member of whatever group you're part of.

00:17:34.260 Mastery, I think I use that as a kind of a blanket one, because I think just men generally

00:17:39.200 appreciate skills in each other.

00:17:41.540 If you're in a primitive tribe, it's not necessarily the strongest guy or the most courageous guy,

00:17:44.860 but the guy who can use the bow and arrow the best is really valuable.

00:17:48.980 Right.

00:17:49.320 But it's interesting, because people have a problem with that.

00:17:51.580 If you look around, I think people want the quality so bad, they're willing not to get

00:17:57.620 better at the bow and arrow, for example, or even metaphorically, but that they will

00:18:04.000 tear the other guy down because they want an equal outcome.

00:18:07.920 Even though there's different qualities and characteristics and strengths and virtues that

00:18:13.220 we all inherently possess, there's things that you're better at naturally than I am.

00:18:17.380 So, we'll never have a level playing field, because we all start at a different place and

00:18:21.420 level.

00:18:22.080 Yeah.

00:18:22.260 Life has never been fair.

00:18:24.340 It's never been fair.

00:18:25.860 And it never will be.

00:18:26.680 But isn't that...

00:18:27.280 But to me, I hear that.

00:18:28.420 I'm like, life's not fair.

00:18:29.600 Well, okay.

00:18:30.000 Then that means that I could look at you and think, okay, this guy's got an advantage over

00:18:33.540 me in X, Y, and Z.

00:18:34.900 But to fill in the blank, because that's an incomplete thought.

00:18:38.140 Yeah.

00:18:38.420 The other thought is, then that means I've got an advantage over him in these other areas.

00:18:43.480 Yeah.

00:18:43.660 And I think that's the value of having a band of brothers, is having a tribe, is having

00:18:48.120 your term, a gang.

00:18:49.720 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:50.180 A group of people who work together towards a common objective to achieve something together.

00:18:55.720 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:56.940 Absolutely.

00:18:57.620 I think my framework for looking at the world was influenced to a certain extent from my

00:19:02.300 father.

00:19:03.280 He had a twin brother.

00:19:04.920 My father got polio right before they invented the vaccine.

00:19:09.080 Yeah.

00:19:09.520 One leg is really small.

00:19:10.780 And he just...

00:19:11.540 There's two ways that you can approach that.

00:19:12.840 That you can, A, be a victim for your whole life.

00:19:14.180 Right.

00:19:14.920 And then there's my dad, who tells people he was in a car accident.

00:19:18.940 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:19.660 I just have a limp because I was in a car accident.

00:19:21.000 He didn't want to deal with that.

00:19:21.740 Yeah.

00:19:22.380 What he ended up doing, because he couldn't go work on the railroad like the rest of the

00:19:25.100 family, is he ended up in an office.

00:19:27.260 Then he ended up being a really successful electrical estimator.

00:19:29.800 Right.

00:19:30.160 And everybody else in the family worked in electric, but they're on the railroad.

00:19:32.900 Right.

00:19:33.080 And so he ended up doing really well as an electrical estimator.

00:19:35.380 And so he made use of what he had.

00:19:38.120 And that's the beauty of even modern times, is that that option wasn't available 100 years ago.

00:19:42.840 Right.

00:19:43.180 I should say, limited.

00:19:45.180 Yeah.

00:19:45.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:46.660 I mean, there's less things that you could compensate by doing something else.

00:19:50.360 Sure.

00:19:50.700 But again, I mean, that's not fair.

00:19:53.760 My leg doesn't work.

00:19:55.220 Are you going to live?

00:19:56.180 Yeah.

00:19:56.420 One thing I go back again and again over in the book, living is about thriving.

00:20:00.720 Are you going to try and thrive, or are you just going to complain about how you got a

00:20:03.560 bad hand?

00:20:04.620 Right.

00:20:05.080 I'm going to keep trying to win until I'm dead.

00:20:08.600 Sure.

00:20:09.160 I still want to keep trying to win.

00:20:11.440 If it's okay, something bad happened to you, you can either get stuck in that place, or

00:20:16.720 you can look for, well, what's my next win?

00:20:19.660 What's my next way to move forward?

00:20:21.300 And I think that that's a really important way to think, and that's something I talk

00:20:24.300 about in this chapter called The Conquering Eye, I think, in the book, and I think that

00:20:27.580 that's a really important way that you need to look at the world, and I think that a lot

00:20:30.500 of winners look at the world that way.

00:20:32.600 Well, and you can see, I mean, you can recognize it.

00:20:34.220 I've got a friend, he's actually coming on the podcast in the next several weeks who he's

00:20:37.720 lost both of his legs.

00:20:39.260 Yeah.

00:20:39.440 He's more active and capable than a large percentage of the men that I know and meet

00:20:45.860 and deal with on a daily basis.

00:20:47.300 Yeah.

00:20:47.440 He just got done with a mule deer hunt, shot a really nice buck, and to see what he's been

00:20:53.460 able to go through and what he's been able to accomplish, and I never even heard the guy

00:20:56.740 complain.

00:20:57.800 Yeah.

00:20:58.020 I almost wonder, and this is one of the questions I'm going to ask him, if he believes he's better

00:21:02.160 off with the fact that he's lost both of his legs.

00:21:05.720 I'm really curious.

00:21:06.600 Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I'm really curious because the way that I look at it from

00:21:10.240 the outside looking in is he's done an amazing job, and he's fully capable, as is anybody

00:21:14.900 else.

00:21:15.320 But I think there's a lot of society that, and maybe this is really just self-serving,

00:21:19.840 that will look at an individual like him or anybody who might have some sort of issue

00:21:25.160 like we all have that we've dealt with in the past and want to rescue people that aren't

00:21:28.980 interested in being rescued, or they don't even need to be rescued.

00:21:32.320 There are a lot of people who need to nurture something, so they want to reach out and do

00:21:36.240 that.

00:21:37.180 Those people are much more of an inspiration when they lift themselves up.

00:21:40.720 It's good to have help.

00:21:41.880 Sure.

00:21:42.220 You know, but-

00:21:42.980 And you should be able to accept help.

00:21:44.560 Yeah.

00:21:45.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:46.000 Absolutely.

00:21:47.000 But also, knowing you need to say no, you know, and just do it yourself.

00:21:51.300 Yeah.

00:21:51.760 And I think that's the greater risk.

00:21:53.320 I think more people do that.

00:21:55.320 It's not that they accept help.

00:21:57.540 It's that they cannot or refuse to help themselves.

00:22:02.580 That's the greater danger.

00:22:04.060 Absolutely.

00:22:04.880 Absolutely.

00:22:05.720 Absolutely.

00:22:06.620 So, I guess we were going through the four tactical virtues and how to get better.

00:22:10.340 Sure.

00:22:10.440 I think because we got to mastery, right?

00:22:12.180 We're all over the place.

00:22:12.800 Well, no, this is all good.

00:22:13.680 It's all the same topic.

00:22:14.640 We're all talking about manliness.

00:22:15.480 That's right.

00:22:15.640 So, it's all the same thing.

00:22:17.760 So, I guess that we're keeping it in the framework.

00:22:20.660 Yeah.

00:22:20.800 I guess the other one, I think this is interesting too because honor has a lot of meanings as

00:22:25.780 well.

00:22:26.080 And that's the fourth tactical virtue.

00:22:27.740 And I use a very simple one because honor has a cultural meaning.

00:22:31.960 I think to me personally, my honor means more than this because that's my cultural sense

00:22:38.000 of honor and that has to do with my own philosophical code and moral code.

00:22:41.980 So, you've defined it for you specifically.

00:22:44.640 Yeah.

00:22:44.920 I mean, I think we all have our own version of what that is.

00:22:47.660 We should.

00:22:48.020 Yeah.

00:22:48.380 For me, as a writer, and this is something that I struggle with a lot, is like I've put

00:22:52.600 a lot of words out there in the world.

00:22:54.860 I'm tied to all of them.

00:22:56.780 So, if I change my opinion, I have to find a reason why.

00:22:59.120 I can't just say like, I believe one thing one day, whenever.

00:23:01.420 Yeah, you can't just be flippant about it.

00:23:02.140 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:02.660 I mean, and I feel like I have a responsibility to at least be attempting on a regular basis

00:23:07.900 to live up to things that I've told other people to do.

00:23:11.080 And so, for me, that's a huge part of my own personal honor.

00:23:13.760 In the book, and I think as a more general term, I think about honor as do you care about

00:23:19.620 your reputation?

00:23:21.620 Basically, what the men in your tribe and your group think of you?

00:23:24.980 Because I think you can overextend that to care about what the whole world thinks about

00:23:28.240 you and then that's a terrible thing.

00:23:30.360 Well, because you're worrying about people that have no relevancy in your life.

00:23:35.640 No investment, no skin in the game.

00:23:36.760 Because you hear this, and I think you even address this in the book, if I remember correctly,

00:23:40.260 where there's this like, zero Fs mentality.

00:23:43.180 Like, I don't care about anybody or anything else.

00:23:45.200 Well, hold on.

00:23:46.800 I kind of understand maybe a little bit about what you're saying, but I think there's certain

00:23:50.840 people and their opinions that you probably should care about.

00:23:55.440 Yeah.

00:23:55.540 Like, I care about your opinion because I respect who you are.

00:23:58.820 Right.

00:23:59.040 That doesn't make me any weaker.

00:24:01.440 In fact, now I have another perspective that I can appreciate and take into consideration

00:24:06.800 with defining my honor code.

00:24:08.420 Yeah, exactly.

00:24:09.720 If we're talking about that survival band, you know, if the zombies are coming, the survival

00:24:13.080 band and so forth, I mean, those other guys, their opinion has to matter to you because

00:24:19.320 if it doesn't matter to you, then you're like, we're all going to go down the road and

00:24:23.220 do this thing.

00:24:24.460 And you're like, nah.

00:24:26.600 Like, I'm not doing that.

00:24:27.480 Yeah, I'm not doing that.

00:24:28.720 Well, if it doesn't matter, I mean, because, and then you're untrustworthy.

00:24:31.720 And so if you don't care what they think about you, you're untrustworthy.

00:24:33.780 Well, then you're ostracized from the group.

00:24:35.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:24:36.180 Or you should be.

00:24:37.140 That's the kind of base level of honor being tied into that kind of approval system.

00:24:40.660 And then it kind of builds out into your reputation among men.

00:24:44.620 And for us in, you know, contemporary times, it's your reputation among, as you said, the

00:24:49.480 men who you respect for some reason, not every person on the street.

00:24:54.000 Yeah.

00:24:54.180 You know, I feel that way about like people who, you know, get into bar fights and stuff

00:24:57.000 like that all the time.

00:24:57.640 And it's like, it's like, is any random drunk the one who's going to, you're going

00:25:02.160 to allow that to change the course of your life?

00:25:03.900 Yeah.

00:25:04.280 That's what you're going to use to dictate.

00:25:05.900 That guy's opinions matter.

00:25:07.400 So, you know, like if my friend calls me a name, then we're going to throw it out.

00:25:12.360 You know, well, then we're going to have a problem.

00:25:13.880 We're going to have to talk about it.

00:25:14.780 Or if your friend does, you might actually say, well, maybe he's right.

00:25:17.740 Exactly.

00:25:18.320 Exactly.

00:25:18.540 Take that into consideration.

00:25:19.240 Because I respect his opinion.

00:25:20.640 I mean, you have to choose these people around you who you respect their opinion.

00:25:24.800 And then, you know, if they say something that upsets you, you have, we have to talk

00:25:28.940 that out.

00:25:29.700 Yeah.

00:25:29.980 It's interesting because I see these guys who are like, and I don't know, you know,

00:25:32.660 if you watch like a prison show or a, you know, a jail where these, they do the prison

00:25:37.180 tours or whatever and people are in there.

00:25:38.440 This guy disrespected me.

00:25:39.700 I'm like, who disrespect, like only you decide to be disrespected.

00:25:44.620 Yeah.

00:25:45.080 Yeah.

00:25:45.240 Right.

00:25:45.380 Like I'm not going to give, you know, who disrespects you every day?

00:25:48.040 The prison guard, you know, people never think of that.

00:25:51.480 It's so weird to me.

00:25:52.140 That's funny.

00:25:52.580 That's interesting.

00:25:53.260 Yeah.

00:25:53.760 Yeah.

00:25:53.960 Yeah.

00:25:54.380 But you're cool with that.

00:25:55.260 Right.

00:25:55.840 Yeah.

00:25:56.180 That's, that's okay with you.

00:25:57.320 So this is an interesting thought because you're talking about reputation within your,

00:26:01.560 your gang or your tribe.

00:26:02.580 Yeah.

00:26:03.080 But then you're also talking about not really caring that other people disrespect you or don't

00:26:09.840 appreciate you or what they care about.

00:26:11.660 So it's like, it's, I think it's hard for guys to find like who they should be.

00:26:15.600 Care about and what opinions they should value.

00:26:18.960 Yeah.

00:26:19.320 No, absolutely.

00:26:20.240 Absolutely.

00:26:20.640 And then I think that that's really has to do with them not being very rooted and not

00:26:26.100 really having a like group that they're identified with.

00:26:28.540 Because I think that if you have a community that you're tied into, you kind of know whose

00:26:32.400 opinion you need to respect.

00:26:33.840 You know, we could talk about a kind of a larger metaphorical community of like, you

00:26:37.100 know, like like-minded people who are talking to each other and I would respect their opinion.

00:26:40.780 You know, if you actually have a group that you identify with, I think that's something

00:26:45.000 very alien to a lot of people in contemporary world because they just, they go to their

00:26:49.020 job, they know a few people, then they switch jobs and they, they're not rooted really in

00:26:52.320 any community or anything.

00:26:53.700 It also makes it very easy to not live up to any kind of honor because everyone's disposable.

00:27:00.400 Right.

00:27:01.100 You know, but people aren't disposable.

00:27:02.660 And they won't know you for very long, right?

00:27:03.680 Exactly.

00:27:03.940 There's no long-term consequence for your thoughts, actions, and ideas.

00:27:07.640 Exactly.

00:27:08.220 Exactly.

00:27:08.820 Exactly.

00:27:09.300 And that's part of being a group.

00:27:10.320 I mean, is working out those problems and it's, it's challenging.

00:27:13.060 But I also think there's, I don't know if this is a trend necessarily or just something

00:27:16.920 out there in society that says we have to avoid being part of a tribe or a quote unquote

00:27:23.640 group think.

00:27:24.840 So where's the line?

00:27:27.080 Is there a line?

00:27:28.520 Well, that comes from a variety of places.

00:27:30.240 I think one I would say is American individualism.

00:27:34.940 In America, especially, you have the Clint Eastwood kind of cowboy ideal of he's, he's

00:27:41.680 by himself and he's on his own and he's ever, he's the ultimate individual.

00:27:45.480 Right.

00:27:46.180 And I think that a lot of guys in America, I think, kind of trained to idealize that guy.

00:27:51.380 I mean, you think about Jason Bourne, James Bond.

00:27:54.260 Yeah.

00:27:54.840 They're, they're by themselves.

00:27:56.060 Yeah.

00:27:56.280 They're by themselves.

00:27:57.060 And, and that's the romantic side.

00:27:59.180 And then the other side is the political side.

00:28:00.500 And the political side is that the modern world is defined by globalism.

00:28:05.700 Globalism is anti-tribal.

00:28:07.680 It's anti-identity group.

00:28:09.800 It's identity group in like a superficial way.

00:28:12.220 Our identity group is going to be offended by this or whatever.

00:28:14.400 As far as being an insular group, I mean, there are very few of them that are allowed to

00:28:19.440 survive.

00:28:20.160 You know, everything's about breaking down borders and breaking down walls and, you know,

00:28:23.400 languages disappear.

00:28:25.240 All these things stick.

00:28:26.520 Sure.

00:28:26.840 It's a hodgepodge.

00:28:27.400 You need an insular, you need an insular society to create like a new language and a culture.

00:28:31.260 Culture is actually disappearing.

00:28:32.960 So is that, I mean, is that bad?

00:28:35.740 Is it good?

00:28:36.260 Is it neither?

00:28:37.180 I like culture.

00:28:38.720 Like I, I like different cultures too.

00:28:41.100 I mean, and different cultures actually can't have it unless they're separate.

00:28:45.800 Language is a perfect example.

00:28:47.360 You know, languages start to sound like the same and the same words are used and they overlap.

00:28:52.420 And eventually it goes separate languages, for example, go away, go away altogether.

00:28:57.740 Now we have this kind of global monoculture.

00:28:59.920 So everyone watches the same TV shows and everyone watches the same news and everybody

00:29:04.960 has the same almost perspective because it's kind of piped into our minds like all around

00:29:09.340 the world, go over to Germany.

00:29:11.940 And as soon as I stumble trying desperately to try and speak a little German, they speak

00:29:17.780 back to me in perfect California English.

00:29:19.820 I'm like, where'd you learn that?

00:29:20.900 Oh, family guy.

00:29:21.580 Oh, that's funny.

00:29:24.140 That's funny.

00:29:25.140 Yeah.

00:29:25.460 You know, yeah.

00:29:26.200 Like, and, and it's so, these cultures are disappearing and I'm like, I would love for

00:29:30.100 the Germans to still speak German.

00:29:31.500 Right.

00:29:31.980 You know, and not know what I'm saying.

00:29:32.680 But what's really interesting about this too is that, and I've seen this before and

00:29:36.240 I'll try to think of an example.

00:29:38.080 Let's say you really enjoy a particular culture.

00:29:40.640 Yeah.

00:29:41.140 German, for example.

00:29:42.400 Sure.

00:29:42.780 And so you're like, well, I want to be part of this culture.

00:29:45.360 It's really interesting because what a lot of people do is they're like, so you have to

00:29:48.980 change to accommodate me because I want to be part of you.

00:29:51.960 Right.

00:29:52.620 No, no, no, no, no.

00:29:53.260 No, this is not the way it works.

00:29:54.540 You want to be part of this tribe or this culture, this group.

00:29:58.340 Yeah.

00:29:58.980 You are the one who has to accommodate to us.

00:30:01.540 Exactly.

00:30:01.820 Except for that is not a popular thought.

00:30:04.100 That's taboo.

00:30:05.220 Yeah.

00:30:05.780 Yeah.

00:30:06.100 That is a modern taboo.

00:30:07.500 I mean, because that's the globalism thing is that everyone is supposed to be welcome

00:30:10.620 all the time.

00:30:11.180 And I think that that comes from commerce.

00:30:13.160 You have two gas stations down the street and one of them says, we're only serving this

00:30:16.960 group of people.

00:30:17.740 And one of them says, we're going to serve everyone.

00:30:19.520 Who's going to win?

00:30:20.220 Right.

00:30:20.560 Everyone.

00:30:21.220 Yeah, exactly.

00:30:21.900 Of course.

00:30:22.000 And I think that's the way the world works.

00:30:23.940 Yeah.

00:30:24.440 Right now.

00:30:24.900 And that's kind of the driving force, I think, that has this mentality of the tribalism

00:30:29.180 is bad or that groups are bad and so forth.

00:30:31.680 Because it's a lot of people trying to compete for your business.

00:30:35.540 And I take advantage of it too, you know, because we have to live in the modern world

00:30:38.120 and take every advantage we can.

00:30:39.700 You know, it is what it is.

00:30:41.280 I always say boycott is a bourgeois form of protest.

00:30:43.680 I don't think that you can say, well, I'm not going to do that.

00:30:46.340 And therefore, it's going to stop because that's actually not how it works.

00:30:49.060 Right.

00:30:49.680 There has to be a lot of people that not.

00:30:51.600 Yeah.

00:30:51.880 You have to have a huge block of people to not do it.

00:30:54.980 But I think that happens too over time.

00:30:56.720 Like I think behavior, maybe this isn't the right term, but I think negative behavior,

00:31:01.840 for example, is in a way corrected over time through the beliefs and actions of enough

00:31:06.880 people.

00:31:07.240 I mean, if you look at any metric, whether it's health, wealth, violence, all of those

00:31:13.140 metrics have improved over time because that behavior is corrected through people, through

00:31:19.100 everybody.

00:31:19.960 Right.

00:31:20.460 Right.

00:31:20.880 Right.

00:31:21.100 I tend to think with this kind of stuff we're talking about, the world is going in that

00:31:25.540 particular direction, like I said, because I think money is more powerful than people

00:31:29.900 talking.

00:31:30.840 Yeah.

00:31:31.220 To a certain extent.

00:31:32.080 Yeah.

00:31:32.680 Which is why we say put your money where your mouth is, right?

00:31:34.620 Exactly.

00:31:35.040 Exactly.

00:31:35.440 But I think that, you know, like if you want to change the world, get a billion dollars.

00:31:39.600 You know, to a certain extent, there's a lot of things.

00:31:41.680 And even that's not really even that much.

00:31:43.200 Yeah.

00:31:43.700 To play with.

00:31:44.160 Yeah.

00:31:44.300 It is amazing because I used to think like, oh, a million dollars.

00:31:46.820 I want to be a millionaire.

00:31:47.600 I'm like, a million dollars?

00:31:48.880 So that'll buy you a pretty nice house.

00:31:51.040 Right.

00:31:51.980 And what do you do next year?

00:31:53.560 Yeah.

00:31:53.820 Yeah.

00:31:53.980 And people say, well, that's a lot of money.

00:31:55.520 I'm not saying that.

00:31:56.240 It is a lot of money.

00:31:56.960 Yeah.

00:31:57.240 I would like some.

00:31:57.880 I'm just saying relatively speaking to what it was maybe 20, 30 years ago.

00:32:02.200 So it's really not as much as it used to be.

00:32:04.800 No, not at all.

00:32:05.540 Yeah.

00:32:06.280 Yeah.

00:32:07.760 Interesting.

00:32:08.280 So, well, let's talk about victims because one of the things that you really addressed

00:32:11.420 in the book that I liked is this concept of men as victims.

00:32:16.000 And I've seen that.

00:32:17.040 And I'll be honest, maybe even I've fallen prey to that a little bit, even within this

00:32:20.680 organization, is that one thing that I think men fight against is feminism, right?

00:32:25.660 Yeah.

00:32:25.920 And, oh, feminists are out to get us.

00:32:27.700 And so we got a band together and we were the victims of the victims, essentially.

00:32:32.040 Right.

00:32:32.320 And that's a really interesting concept that I had not thought about before.

00:32:36.740 It's tricky because you end up becoming the thing that you hate.

00:32:39.300 You end up becoming this, like, well, they're always victims.

00:32:41.780 And then you're like, they're against me.

00:32:44.100 Yeah.

00:32:44.400 They're coming to get me.

00:32:45.200 So you're a victim.

00:32:45.620 And they are coming to get you.

00:32:46.620 They absolutely are.

00:32:47.560 Sure.

00:32:47.820 They do not want you to live in the way that you would like to live.

00:32:50.760 So what do you do?

00:32:52.220 But, I mean, I think that you have to see past that because otherwise you're just stuck

00:32:56.500 in that trap.

00:32:57.420 And then you're letting someone else control your destiny and really your identity.

00:33:00.820 Because if your whole identity is being anti-something, that thing actually holds a huge position

00:33:07.220 in your universe.

00:33:08.060 It's almost like you're playing not to lose, in a way.

00:33:11.220 Yeah.

00:33:11.600 Yeah.

00:33:11.800 And I think that you need to more focus on playing to win.

00:33:14.960 And that's kind of the whole maybe inspiration of this book is instead of being anti-something,

00:33:19.820 anti-something, like, well, okay, what kind of world do you want to live in?

00:33:23.620 Right.

00:33:24.000 What do you want to see more of in the world?

00:33:25.860 What's your dream?

00:33:27.200 Stop talking about these people who are making you not be able to do it.

00:33:30.240 Because you know what?

00:33:30.760 Life has always been hard.

00:33:32.140 Mm-hmm.

00:33:32.500 You know?

00:33:32.900 If you want to romanticize that you wanted to live a thousand years ago, well, you might

00:33:36.220 have been a serf.

00:33:37.040 Right.

00:33:37.980 Yeah.

00:33:38.340 You know, like...

00:33:38.980 People talk about it all the time.

00:33:40.660 It's like, no, no, no.

00:33:41.280 I guarantee you living a thousand years ago, regardless of what socioeconomic status you're in

00:33:47.000 right now, I guarantee living a thousand years ago is significantly worse than you are living

00:33:51.740 right now.

00:33:52.800 Regardless, you don't get to live a thousand years ago.

00:33:55.140 You get to live right now.

00:33:56.060 That's true.

00:33:56.460 That's an exercise in futility.

00:33:58.040 Yeah.

00:33:58.300 Yeah.

00:33:58.440 You get to live right now.

00:33:59.480 And so this is your time.

00:34:01.300 And so you have this time and this is all the time you get.

00:34:03.800 And so what you need to do is figure out what kind of life you want to live and what

00:34:08.100 kind of world you want to create around you to the extent of your power.

00:34:12.120 And not worry about all these big things.

00:34:14.220 I mean, everybody wants to talk about...

00:34:15.520 And I don't watch the news anymore for this reason.

00:34:17.940 I don't like these people controlling what my day is about.

00:34:20.840 Sure.

00:34:21.440 What people in New York or LA have decided we're going to talk about today.

00:34:25.660 And it's usually just some writer writes a thing that they've been paid to write and

00:34:31.540 they needed something new to come up with to impress their editor and get more traffic

00:34:35.180 and whatever.

00:34:35.600 And then we're all supposed to talk about that today.

00:34:37.940 And that's supposed to define our day.

00:34:40.260 I'm like, no.

00:34:41.340 But the problem though, I mean, let me look at the other side and play devil's advocate on

00:34:44.740 this a little bit because the alternative, I think, to what you're suggesting, I don't

00:34:49.320 know, maybe it's ignorance or oblivion.

00:34:53.100 And how do we reconcile controlling our own destiny yet being aware of what threats are

00:34:59.160 potentially out there that we need to be aware of?

00:35:01.740 I do think that there is definitely a line to write.

00:35:04.440 I think that, you know, like say if you're running a business, you kind of need to know

00:35:07.300 when the tax laws change.

00:35:08.360 Sure.

00:35:08.600 You know, you need to stay, you can't just like put your head in the sand and like think

00:35:12.460 nothing's ever going to change because it will.

00:35:14.700 And you have to see what's coming down the pike.

00:35:17.240 Obviously, you have to keep your kind of ear out there a little bit.

00:35:20.200 But I think there's a difference between kind of keeping tabs on things and then being involved

00:35:26.960 in their cycle every day.

00:35:28.620 And even maybe just recognizing what is relevant and what is not.

00:35:32.640 Yeah.

00:35:32.980 Yeah.

00:35:33.140 What's just noise?

00:35:33.980 Like the signal to noise ratio or whatever.

00:35:36.240 Like what's just noise?

00:35:37.040 Long ago, I used to know this guy who made a living as a professional hypnotist.

00:35:41.220 He had a thing he used to say was like, you know, if I can't get the president to change

00:35:45.700 the color of his tie, why am I so worried about every single thing that comes out of

00:35:50.280 his mouth every single day?

00:35:51.700 It was something like that.

00:35:52.760 Like you don't have control over these people.

00:35:54.580 Sure.

00:35:55.040 Whether you're mad about what they did or not bad about what they did, you don't have

00:35:59.120 a lot of control.

00:36:00.160 What do you have control over in your life?

00:36:02.380 And you should be spending a lot more time on that than all these things that you don't

00:36:07.040 have any control over.

00:36:08.480 It is probably good to have a general idea of what's going on.

00:36:12.100 Probably in your community, in your state, in the world.

00:36:15.300 With your kids, with your wife, with your family.

00:36:17.040 Well, I mean, that's what's more important.

00:36:18.840 That's the stuff that you could control.

00:36:20.580 That's true.

00:36:20.880 Or at least like exert influence over.

00:36:22.840 Yeah.

00:36:23.060 Sure.

00:36:23.280 I mean, I think that that's what you need to focus on, whether it's your tribe or whatever

00:36:28.440 you're trying to build in life.

00:36:30.080 And that's kind of, again, the idea of the book is being a creative person and creating

00:36:34.120 a world that you want and investing in that instead of like constantly being defined by

00:36:39.620 this anti.

00:36:41.640 Define yourself like with my thing.

00:36:43.300 Like I said, tribalism is good.

00:36:44.740 So I found a tribe.

00:36:45.520 Joined a tribe.

00:36:46.020 I have to be careful because I used to write essays based on the news or whatever was happening

00:36:50.640 and everybody would argue about it today.

00:36:52.280 And now I have to be careful because I've become so insular in some ways that I want

00:36:56.660 to write an article about that argument I had with my buddy the other day.

00:36:59.740 Yeah.

00:37:00.160 You know?

00:37:00.460 Yeah.

00:37:00.700 And sometimes that's good.

00:37:01.760 I mean, I've gotten a lot of material out of like...

00:37:04.060 And you're rewarded for it.

00:37:05.260 Yeah.

00:37:05.420 I mean, let's look at from a creator standpoint.

00:37:07.560 I'm talking about content creation, right?

00:37:10.300 Yeah.

00:37:10.380 Trying to be influential in the community or in the world.

00:37:13.760 You are, for better or worse, rewarded for being controversial, for jumping on the wagon

00:37:21.380 to talk about the noise that doesn't really deserve much attention.

00:37:25.760 Yeah.

00:37:26.140 Yeah.

00:37:26.400 You know, what everybody's talking about today, I mean, if creating content, I mean, if this

00:37:30.060 is the big issue of the day, what's your take on it?

00:37:32.620 Yeah.

00:37:33.120 That's right.

00:37:33.700 That's the goal, right?

00:37:34.800 I mean, like that's something I've tried to get away from.

00:37:37.140 So I don't write a lot anymore.

00:37:38.260 I try to work on other projects, but creating something that I think is cool.

00:37:42.040 I bought some land and me and a bunch of the guys in my tribe have been building things

00:37:46.080 on it.

00:37:46.420 I'm like, what am I thinking about during a week?

00:37:47.680 I saw your chicken coop.

00:37:49.180 Yeah.

00:37:49.560 Yeah.

00:37:49.780 Yeah.

00:37:49.960 Yeah.

00:37:50.120 That's pretty cool.

00:37:50.940 Yeah.

00:37:51.220 It's okay.

00:37:51.860 I mean, they're the most expensive eggs in the world because there's no water on the

00:37:55.000 land.

00:37:55.260 So I have to drive out there twice a week to get the thing to water.

00:37:57.140 That's the thing.

00:37:57.720 People always say like, oh, you know, you go hunting and you're going to save a bunch of

00:38:01.660 money.

00:38:01.920 I'm like, I don't know how these guys are hunting.

00:38:03.980 I don't think so.

00:38:04.300 But like when I travel and I'm away for three or four days, you know, we have chickens and

00:38:10.000 stuff too.

00:38:10.620 And I go in with my in-laws and we slaughter a cow every year.

00:38:13.800 And I'm like, it's not cheaper.

00:38:15.260 I mean, you calculate the land and the feed and the this and the that and the time and

00:38:19.020 the attention.

00:38:19.660 Like, it's just not cheaper.

00:38:20.780 But it brings me fulfillment.

00:38:22.400 Yeah.

00:38:22.560 You're getting some kind of satisfaction out of it.

00:38:24.120 I think that that's...

00:38:24.760 And for me, it's like I've never been around chickens.

00:38:26.460 It's fun.

00:38:26.980 Yeah.

00:38:27.140 This is a little project that I'm doing.

00:38:28.540 I go out there and collect little eggs and eat the eggs.

00:38:30.620 It's good to have some kind of connection to the circle of life, you know?

00:38:34.340 Yes.

00:38:34.720 I 100% agree with that.

00:38:34.780 And that's why I think hunting is good and all that kind of stuff.

00:38:37.040 I mean, it's because you have to have, I think, an appreciation that life comes from

00:38:41.020 death.

00:38:41.280 And I think that that's an important thing to think about.

00:38:43.540 And people are afraid of that.

00:38:45.020 People are just afraid of death, right?

00:38:46.920 Yeah.

00:38:47.240 Because we don't want to talk...

00:38:47.960 That's morbid.

00:38:48.660 I don't want to talk about death.

00:38:49.720 Yeah.

00:38:50.700 Yeah.

00:38:50.880 So they want to have that conversation.

00:38:52.500 Yeah.

00:38:52.700 Yeah.

00:38:52.800 But it's so important because then you...

00:38:54.900 I feel like much unreason comes from not understanding that life comes from death.

00:38:59.780 Right.

00:39:00.040 Like when you think that chicken comes from styrofoam, you don't understand the world.

00:39:05.380 There's a lot of things that come...

00:39:06.820 Because that's not dealing in reality.

00:39:07.740 Yeah.

00:39:08.140 You don't have a firm grounding in things.

00:39:10.560 And I think that that's very dangerous.

00:39:12.080 And can you make great decisions if you're not looking at things objectively?

00:39:15.860 Exactly.

00:39:16.500 Exactly.

00:39:16.720 No.

00:39:17.280 Yeah.

00:39:17.420 You're using your own ideas wherever they come from to formulate your plan of attack.

00:39:23.480 And it's doomed from the beginning because it's not foundational principles you're basing

00:39:28.540 it on.

00:39:29.080 I think I talk about that in Becoming a Barbarian that I'm sure you've maybe heard about the

00:39:32.820 OODA loop.

00:39:33.420 Yeah.

00:39:33.860 Yeah.

00:39:34.220 Yeah.

00:39:34.420 I mean, your orient is wrong.

00:39:35.940 Right.

00:39:36.900 Your orient is wrong.

00:39:38.000 And so you can't make good decisions.

00:39:39.260 Your OODA loop is all messed up.

00:39:40.720 Well, you know what's funny about that is we deal with people like that every single day,

00:39:43.980 every single one of us.

00:39:44.880 Yeah.

00:39:44.980 And we allow them to dictate how we behave.

00:39:48.100 And then we actually get sucked into arguments with people whose orientation is wrong.

00:39:52.240 Yeah.

00:39:52.520 It's like, why would you debate with someone that you don't have some foundational understanding

00:39:59.900 that you can actually debate and have a dialogue with?

00:40:03.540 Yeah.

00:40:03.840 You're starting from different assumptions.

00:40:05.220 Right.

00:40:05.560 About the world.

00:40:06.260 And so like that, where are you?

00:40:07.680 There's nothing.

00:40:08.440 Yeah.

00:40:08.620 There's nothing there.

00:40:09.120 Until you can find that baseline, there's nothing else to discuss here.

00:40:12.360 Exactly.

00:40:12.720 You're just screaming at each other.

00:40:14.440 And I think that's what people love to do that on the internet, like just long Facebook

00:40:18.360 comment wars and so forth.

00:40:19.820 Well, I think there's this really interesting idea of the outrage culture, right?

00:40:24.880 People just love to be outraged.

00:40:27.120 And it comes back to what you were saying earlier, being a victim as if, and I made a

00:40:31.400 post about this the other day, that there's some sort of nobility or honor in being a victim.

00:40:37.900 Which is disgusting.

00:40:39.200 It's pretty pathetic, actually.

00:40:40.760 Yeah.

00:40:41.120 Yeah.

00:40:41.300 It's like not even a thing anymore, but you know, the whole Oprah Winfrey kind of like

00:40:45.240 talk show culture and all that, like, you know, everybody airing out their problems and

00:40:49.640 like, and that's not like, it's bad to talk about your problems, but maybe you don't need

00:40:52.660 to talk about with the whole world.

00:40:54.440 And the other side, why, why are you talking about your problems?

00:40:57.340 Like, what is the ultimate objective?

00:40:58.660 See, here's the other thing I hear a lot about is vulnerability.

00:41:01.320 Yeah.

00:41:01.580 Right.

00:41:01.800 Men have to be vulnerable.

00:41:03.080 Why?

00:41:03.480 Why?

00:41:04.080 Now, granted, there may be a certain time.

00:41:06.340 I'll give you an example.

00:41:07.060 If I'm having a conversation with my son and he's having a hard day at school and maybe

00:41:12.880 he is going through something with a bully, for example, and I went through that as a

00:41:18.340 child and I came out of it, I can open up and tell him a little bit about my story so

00:41:23.140 that it helps him deal with his own thing.

00:41:25.360 But if I'm just airing it out just to like, get attention or air it out, like there's

00:41:29.960 no value in being vulnerable.

00:41:31.920 I mean, I think that's just really being real.

00:41:33.640 This is how life works and this is what happened to me and here's a learning experience that

00:41:36.660 I can help with.

00:41:37.720 Yeah.

00:41:38.300 You know, when it comes to being a victim, I mean, I think that, you know, like people,

00:41:41.420 yeah, they do get some kind of social currency out of it.

00:41:43.900 It's kind of unfortunate.

00:41:44.820 But the vulnerability thing, I think, is really interesting because it explains why it's wrong.

00:41:50.080 The word itself explains why it's wrong.

00:41:52.020 Right.

00:41:52.320 You know, like you're vulnerable, the opposite of strong.

00:41:56.180 Fortified.

00:41:56.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:41:57.280 The opposite of fortified.

00:41:58.580 You are, it is literally rolling over and showing your belly.

00:42:01.520 But I think people would say to that, what's wrong with that?

00:42:05.160 I mean, because one of the first things we talked about today was, you know, the threat

00:42:08.740 of you being in some sort of situation where you're actually in some sort of real danger

00:42:13.640 is significantly lower.

00:42:15.700 So I think maybe that's why it is acceptable to be more vulnerable.

00:42:19.300 Well, yeah, absolutely.

00:42:20.420 Because, you know, if you had to worry about being vulnerable, actually, if something happening

00:42:24.860 when you're vulnerable, you wouldn't do it all the time.

00:42:27.120 I think a lot of men realize this maybe more than women do on a general basis.

00:42:31.640 You know, it's all big curves.

00:42:32.560 But if you're being vulnerable, there are people who will use that against you.

00:42:36.820 Sure.

00:42:37.180 Like, throw out as much information as you want.

00:42:39.440 Right.

00:42:40.160 And someone's going to take that and throw that back at you at some point.

00:42:42.800 They're going to use that to define who you are in their mind.

00:42:44.800 Right.

00:42:45.060 But what you want to do, you know, as a man, obviously, put this idea of who you want to

00:42:50.220 be out there.

00:42:51.440 That should be your face to the world.

00:42:53.420 Who are you trying to be?

00:42:54.520 Who do you want to be?

00:42:55.280 What's the best version of yourself?

00:42:57.280 And put that forward and not the, well, this is the time I was sad.

00:43:01.740 Yeah.

00:43:04.500 Gentlemen, let me interrupt you for just a quick second.

00:43:07.280 I want to talk with you about the Iron Council.

00:43:09.280 Very simply, the Iron Council is a band of brothers who want to help you improve in every

00:43:14.160 single facet of your life.

00:43:16.060 Now, you could do life on your own.

00:43:18.200 You may even experience some moderate level of success.

00:43:21.020 But I'd argue, along with my guest, Jack, that there is power in banding with other men

00:43:25.480 in order to achieve more.

00:43:27.740 When you work shoulder to shoulder with other men who have experienced what you are going

00:43:31.580 through, you tap into a powerful perspective that you may not have considered before and arm

00:43:37.220 yourself with a new set of tools to help you succeed in your family, health, business,

00:43:41.700 and life in general.

00:43:43.300 And when you join the Iron Council, you have access to these tools like accountability,

00:43:47.900 digital resources, our battle planning system, and of course, so much more.

00:43:51.860 So to learn more and lock in your seat to the Iron Council, head to orderofman.com

00:43:56.720 slash Iron Council.

00:43:58.120 Again, that's orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:44:01.120 In the meantime, guys, we'll get back to my conversation with Jack Donovan.

00:44:04.340 You know, what's interesting too is because sometimes I'll post, you know, me working

00:44:09.920 out or me having a bad day or whatever it is.

00:44:11.980 And yeah, I do that to share because I want to help other guys with their stuff.

00:44:15.840 But at the same time, I'm almost just documenting my journey so I can look at it myself and say,

00:44:21.180 okay, here's where I was down and yet I still did my workout or here's where I overcame

00:44:26.120 this.

00:44:26.580 And it's really just in a way, even the things that I say that are uplifting and positive and

00:44:31.620 encouraging is as much to me as it is to anybody else.

00:44:34.780 Like I need to hear that stuff.

00:44:36.400 Absolutely.

00:44:37.160 You know, I talked about this with my buddy Paul Wagner a lot.

00:44:39.400 We write stuff that we need to hear.

00:44:40.860 Yeah.

00:44:41.260 And that's why it connects with people.

00:44:42.560 If you post something that says, I had a rough day, but I still got something done.

00:44:46.440 Someone else is being like, I'm having a rough day.

00:44:48.080 I guess I should go do something.

00:44:49.060 It's inspirational to people.

00:44:50.120 And I think that that's different than being a victim.

00:44:51.920 Oh, sure.

00:44:52.380 I think it makes your advice more valuable when you're like, I don't just like-

00:44:56.920 Yeah, stuff sucks sometimes.

00:44:57.800 I don't like just fall through life and everything great happens to me.

00:45:00.900 You know, like all of us have your hurdles that we have to get past.

00:45:03.620 Yeah.

00:45:04.240 That's so much, I think, more valuable to people than to just wallow in self-pity all the time.

00:45:10.040 Well, I think that's the problem with social media.

00:45:11.680 It's great.

00:45:12.280 And I'm not going to beat up social media.

00:45:13.520 I think social media is great.

00:45:14.660 You know, it connects people unlike we've ever been connected.

00:45:17.380 Magical.

00:45:18.020 Yes.

00:45:18.380 It actually is pretty incredible when you think about the amount of wealth it's built

00:45:22.040 for guys like you and me and other people, the amount of connections that you can make,

00:45:26.740 the fulfillment and satisfaction.

00:45:28.140 I mean, there's just so much that comes from it.

00:45:29.560 But I do believe that one of the problems that we see with social media is that everything

00:45:35.860 is supposed to be perfect, right?

00:45:39.020 It's all through a filtered lens.

00:45:41.080 And we manipulate the little angles and the little lighting.

00:45:44.340 And we put little vignettes and filters on everything.

00:45:47.100 And then the guy who's looking in says, he's ripped.

00:45:50.840 He's always doing cool stuff.

00:45:52.800 Ryan's always working out or doing this.

00:45:55.160 And it's like, so what the hell is wrong with me?

00:45:57.600 Because I'm not always feeling like these guys are.

00:46:01.080 Yeah.

00:46:01.160 And there's a huge disconnect, which I think creates a problem for people.

00:46:04.800 Because there's also the other trend.

00:46:06.400 You know, you have people posting their every bad thing that ever happens to them.

00:46:10.460 Yeah.

00:46:10.980 There's a lot of that on social media too, which is terrible.

00:46:13.120 Yeah, that's true.

00:46:13.480 But I think for the people who try to be inspirational in some way, I always say there are dudes who

00:46:20.440 I follow to make myself feel fat and lazy.

00:46:25.240 For motivation?

00:46:26.160 I think people do that with me.

00:46:27.180 Does that motivate you?

00:46:27.780 Yeah.

00:46:28.520 Yeah, that absolutely motivates me.

00:46:30.220 Like, oh, I really need to pull it together.

00:46:31.760 This guy's been in the gym twice already today.

00:46:33.660 I mean, I follow a lot of like classic physique competitors.

00:46:36.340 Sure.

00:46:36.940 I'm like, I could be doing a lot better.

00:46:38.400 But I guess that's up to you as an individual to discern whether following those types of people

00:46:43.420 are inspiring you to become greater or it's pushing you down because you haven't worked

00:46:49.360 it out in your head.

00:46:50.500 I think that's on us individually, not the fitness competitor, but it's on us to decide,

00:46:56.240 is this motivational and inspirational to me?

00:46:58.040 Yes.

00:46:58.420 I'm going to follow.

00:46:59.260 No, it's not.

00:46:59.940 I'm going to go a different path.

00:47:01.480 Yeah, exactly.

00:47:02.020 And that's the magic of it.

00:47:02.960 You can follow them or not follow them.

00:47:04.400 Yeah.

00:47:04.580 Like some people go, don't post that.

00:47:06.980 I'm like, you're on my feed.

00:47:09.000 Yeah.

00:47:09.300 You don't like what I have to share?

00:47:10.900 Don't follow.

00:47:11.720 Unfollow.

00:47:12.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:13.240 Find somebody who says the exact opposite and there are people out there and that's great.

00:47:16.980 100%.

00:47:17.060 Yeah.

00:47:17.740 Go do that.

00:47:18.360 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:47:19.240 I mean, I don't think they realize that.

00:47:20.700 No, I think they realize it.

00:47:22.120 I just think they like to be upset.

00:47:24.060 I think they like to be outraged.

00:47:25.080 Yeah, people like to be outraged and also like they want to exert control.

00:47:27.960 Or there's another thing, there's another factor that goes into this is that people like 75% of your message and then there's something that bothers them about it and they want you to change the other little thing for them.

00:47:42.000 Yeah.

00:47:42.460 Or they want to share you.

00:47:43.940 I had a guy and I was just like, go away.

00:47:45.940 This guy the other day who was like, well, I don't like that you do this, this, and this, but I think your message is really important.

00:47:50.540 I'm like, if you're afraid to share this with your friends because they might not like me, I probably wouldn't like your friends.

00:47:56.020 Yeah, it's probably not a good fit here.

00:47:58.100 That's fine.

00:47:58.740 It's not a good fit.

00:47:59.660 Yeah, and if there's certain things that you can't get over, that's okay.

00:48:03.340 I mean, I'm on my journey and I'm doing things that are exciting to me.

00:48:07.220 Yeah.

00:48:07.740 And that's what I'm going to keep doing.

00:48:09.480 You don't have to join me on that journey.

00:48:11.700 The one that's always interesting to me is you'll have people that allegedly agree with 99% of the things that you put out, but the only time they'll engage with you is if they disagree with you.

00:48:23.040 Oh, yeah.

00:48:23.340 I follow you religiously.

00:48:25.140 I love everything you're doing, but you're so wrong on this.

00:48:28.360 I'm like, dude, why aren't you engaging on the other stuff, too?

00:48:30.920 I want to have a conversation and dialogue.

00:48:32.760 If you disagree, agree, whatever.

00:48:34.100 Let's do both sides of this thing.

00:48:36.080 Yeah.

00:48:36.520 Well, a lot of times, too, that's also like people have their pet issues and they want to use your platform as their platform.

00:48:44.000 Yeah.

00:48:44.500 And so this is the thing that I'm obsessed with.

00:48:46.640 Yeah.

00:48:46.920 Let's talk about my little issue.

00:48:48.680 Take up all the – because then all your commenters follow them.

00:48:52.840 Yeah.

00:48:53.140 What they're saying.

00:48:53.780 Yeah, that's true.

00:48:54.400 And so they're getting attention without putting on all the legwork.

00:48:56.300 It goes back to one of the points you were talking about earlier and one of the things you say and, of course, I say because it's the title of the book that I wrote is sovereignty, right?

00:49:04.880 Yeah.

00:49:05.060 You're allowing other people to have control, their thumb over you and you're dictating your behavior based on somebody else rather than choosing your own path.

00:49:17.500 Yeah.

00:49:17.920 Yeah.

00:49:18.120 With this kind of stuff that we're talking about, I've always been like, it's almost free to start your own blog.

00:49:23.780 Yeah.

00:49:24.580 Like if you want to talk about something, go talk about it.

00:49:26.960 No one's stopping you.

00:49:27.760 Go do it.

00:49:28.120 Yeah.

00:49:28.140 But you don't want to do that because that's a lot of work and so –

00:49:31.140 That's effort.

00:49:31.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:31.960 And so it didn't shut up.

00:49:33.620 Like I don't care.

00:49:34.880 I want to go back to what we were talking about earlier with this idea of vulnerability and whether we should or shouldn't because one of the things that you had talked about in the book too is this idea of –

00:49:44.780 that somehow masculinity is a mask, that when guys like you and me say, well, it's not always the time and the place to be vulnerable, then somehow that means that we're putting on some sort of exterior facade, right?

00:49:57.420 Some mask.

00:49:58.380 Yeah.

00:49:58.920 I don't necessarily believe that masculinity in and of itself is a mask.

00:50:03.800 I guess it could be used as one but not by default.

00:50:07.060 There's a lot of cultural things that are attached to that and that's a very old feminist argument.

00:50:11.400 It goes back a long ways.

00:50:12.540 And it's one of the biggest ones that they use all the time.

00:50:16.120 Now, masculinity is fake.

00:50:17.880 And that's something I talked about in this book specifically I think that I handled pretty well.

00:50:21.580 They think it's fake because you have to try.

00:50:24.700 Everybody has weaknesses as we've just discussed.

00:50:26.880 Yeah.

00:50:27.060 Everybody has weaknesses.

00:50:27.940 Everybody has trouble.

00:50:29.020 The easiest path is to lay in bed and cry about it.

00:50:32.760 The path of least resistance.

00:50:33.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:34.580 Of course.

00:50:34.620 I mean I've had instances in the past six months where I really just want to go curl up in a ball now.

00:50:40.760 But people give you attention.

00:50:43.340 And they will.

00:50:44.200 But what I'm saying is that that's the easiest path you can always do that.

00:50:48.740 The masculine path is to not.

00:50:51.260 Right.

00:50:51.740 You have to try to get past that.

00:50:53.740 It's not the natural thing.

00:50:55.520 You're pushing yourself to do something that you don't want to do.

00:50:58.500 Like we talked about courage and all those things.

00:51:00.120 It's like you're pushing yourself to be a better version of yourself rather than curling up in a fetal position and crying.

00:51:06.560 But we don't look at it that way because I agree with you.

00:51:09.160 Yeah.

00:51:09.440 Of course.

00:51:10.440 You have to exert yourself.

00:51:11.720 You have to push.

00:51:12.400 You have to try.

00:51:13.200 Yeah.

00:51:13.500 Of course that's on you.

00:51:15.480 But we don't look at that as a negative thing in any other context.

00:51:19.320 Right.

00:51:19.560 If you look at it from a business perspective, if you look at athletes, for example, and you may have used this or maybe I just saw it somewhere else.

00:51:27.840 Yeah, I did.

00:51:28.540 I was like, oh, that was good.

00:51:30.020 Yeah.

00:51:30.580 So I'll let you explain it.

00:51:31.780 I don't want to steal your thunder.

00:51:32.540 Everything that is considered good, actually, you have to try and fail at.

00:51:36.000 Right.

00:51:36.500 To be good at it.

00:51:37.120 I mean, learning a language, playing the piano.

00:51:39.320 Right.

00:51:39.780 You would never look at it like a pianist and say, he's wearing a mask while he's playing the piano.

00:51:44.380 He's faking piano because he doesn't know it yet.

00:51:47.020 That's right.

00:51:47.960 You know, and that's the way they talk about masculinity.

00:51:50.700 Like if your first impulse is to show weakness.

00:51:55.480 To cower or whatever.

00:51:56.380 Yeah, exactly.

00:51:57.480 If that's your first impulse, but you overcome that.

00:51:59.860 Yeah.

00:52:00.480 That's not fake.

00:52:01.560 Right.

00:52:01.820 That is really an inner driving force of yourself that has decided.

00:52:05.760 Right.

00:52:06.360 That it's going to be a better person.

00:52:07.360 I'll give you a great example of this.

00:52:08.980 So a couple of weeks ago, and I posted this video on Instagram because it was classic.

00:52:13.620 We have one of those video cameras outside of the front of our house.

00:52:15.760 Okay, yeah.

00:52:16.080 So if there's motion, it picks it up.

00:52:17.380 Oh, nice.

00:52:17.840 And I'm downstairs.

00:52:18.600 My office is in the basement downstairs.

00:52:20.540 And I hear this commotion upstairs.

00:52:23.060 I'm like, what's going on?

00:52:24.740 So I go up there.

00:52:25.720 Long story short, a neighbor's dog came over, jumped on one of our dogs, started fighting or whatever.

00:52:30.580 And not that big a deal.

00:52:32.060 Just dogs fight.

00:52:33.120 It just happened.

00:52:34.340 My wife sent me the video.

00:52:35.980 It's hilarious.

00:52:36.900 It's funny.

00:52:37.240 You guys go check it out.

00:52:38.240 But it's just a little nuanced thing.

00:52:40.200 But if you look at, it's really interesting.

00:52:41.620 My son was outside and he sees this dog come over and he was going to pet the dog.

00:52:47.660 And then he saw the dog was being aggressive and then jumped on my dog.

00:52:51.900 And knee-jerk reaction, my son got scared and he ran inside.

00:52:56.380 But before he hit the door, you could see it.

00:52:59.240 He stopped and he turned around and he got in that dog's face and he yelled, like, get out of here.

00:53:05.240 And the dog stopped and ran off.

00:53:07.180 And then he kind of ran back inside.

00:53:08.540 And I think this illustrates perfectly what you're talking about.

00:53:10.780 The natural response was, I'm scared.

00:53:13.800 I've got to get out of harm's way.

00:53:15.660 And then something in his mind clicked.

00:53:17.520 No, no, no, no.

00:53:18.400 I got to protect my stuff, which in this case was his dog.

00:53:21.280 Yeah.

00:53:21.460 And so he faced the fear.

00:53:22.960 He turned around and he went and did what he needed to do.

00:53:25.760 No mask there.

00:53:26.920 Yeah.

00:53:27.140 Just a development of character.

00:53:29.000 Yeah.

00:53:29.700 Absolutely.

00:53:30.240 Absolutely.

00:53:30.720 It reminded me, when you were saying that, it reminded me of something that you have to train out when you're boxing.

00:53:36.460 Your natural response when someone punches you is to turn your head away.

00:53:39.060 Right, right.

00:53:39.600 Yeah, you have to turn your head away.

00:53:41.260 And that's actually how you get punched a lot worse.

00:53:43.280 And so you have to learn to not do that anymore.

00:53:45.520 Give him your jaw, right?

00:53:46.280 Yeah, yeah.

00:53:46.740 I mean, are you faking your response there?

00:53:50.000 I mean, this comes back to what we're talking about as making a choice to be more masculine is a virtue.

00:53:55.120 But something inside you is making you want to make that choice.

00:53:57.800 Especially in our society, when we're talking about all the messages that are coming down saying, you don't have to be a man.

00:54:04.360 It's okay.

00:54:05.020 Be more vulnerable.

00:54:05.860 You can cry.

00:54:06.980 Men have never marched and fought in wars for the right to cry.

00:54:10.480 Right.

00:54:10.900 Yeah.

00:54:11.480 They're never – I mean, that's not –

00:54:12.960 They don't fight for it.

00:54:13.940 Men have never wanted that.

00:54:15.500 That's something that other people are pushing on them and saying like, hey, you could cry a little bit.

00:54:20.180 Men don't really actually want to do that because they want to be the better version of themselves.

00:54:25.940 Do you think – because here's an argument I think people will say and I've heard before is that the suppression of emotions or the inability by – we'll use cultural standards or traditional roles to suppress being vulnerable.

00:54:41.980 Do you think that leads to depression, suicide rates, those sorts of things in men?

00:54:48.080 Because that is the argument, that guys have been suppressed for so long that now we're killing ourselves, we're depressed, we're suicidal.

00:54:56.740 I mean, I think we're suicidal because they live in a feminist world.

00:55:00.100 But I mean, honestly, I think that we live in a test-lowering world.

00:55:06.480 What do you mean by test-lowering?

00:55:07.840 What do you mean?

00:55:08.320 If your sports team loses, your test will drop.

00:55:11.600 If your sports team wins, your test will go up.

00:55:14.220 I mean, that's just a basic factor.

00:55:15.860 But do you not think like all – like the way that the world works as far as men and how we relate to our society has any effect on our chemistry?

00:55:24.840 If all you do is work at a customer service job where you say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

00:55:31.400 And you get beat up and counted on and mad.

00:55:32.900 Yeah, you don't think that lowers your test?

00:55:35.000 It's interesting.

00:55:36.260 That's just a theory.

00:55:37.200 I mean, there's no – I haven't done a study.

00:55:39.080 I lean more towards what you're saying because I think the suppression of emotions or the desire to be vulnerable and not being able to – I think the bigger issue is the lack of significance and meaning in a man's life.

00:55:50.160 Absolutely.

00:55:50.960 They talk about military suicides a lot.

00:55:53.200 And if you really look at it, if you talk to a lot of guys, a lot of it isn't about like war.

00:55:59.160 No.

00:55:59.700 It's that they don't have their purpose anymore.

00:56:01.600 They don't have their purpose or it's about like relationships and family drama or like their wife cheated on them or like there's a lot of other stuff that goes on aside from war.

00:56:12.400 Basically, it comes down to that phrase of correlation does not equal causation.

00:56:15.580 Yeah, not always.

00:56:16.240 I mean, it's not always the same thing.

00:56:17.620 Right.

00:56:18.000 You know, I mean – and so, I think women are natural nurturers.

00:56:21.500 A lot of that is women looking at men's problems and seeing them the way that women see them.

00:56:25.800 Mm-hmm.

00:56:26.780 Whereas men would perceive that in a different way.

00:56:28.760 Sure.

00:56:29.440 Neither are wrong.

00:56:30.540 Yeah.

00:56:30.760 Except, I will say this, is that the way that we operate as men is more relevant because we are men.

00:56:37.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:37.900 I mean, you know what I'm saying?

00:56:39.360 I do not know what it is to be a woman.

00:56:41.320 Right.

00:56:41.840 And a woman doesn't know what it means to be a man.

00:56:43.320 Exactly.

00:56:43.780 And I think that that's a very controversial thing to say in modern society.

00:56:47.060 You know, the feminist idea is that we're all really the same and everything else is a lie.

00:56:49.580 Right.

00:56:50.120 But that's clearly not the case.

00:56:51.540 Right.

00:56:51.960 One thing I've said before that I received some pushback on is that a woman cannot fully raise a young boy to be a man.

00:56:57.960 And I stand by that.

00:56:58.720 I was raised by a woman.

00:56:59.940 My dad was out of the picture.

00:57:01.700 Yeah.

00:57:01.760 And even my mom would be the first to admit that she understood and recognized that she could not fully raise me into a man on her own.

00:57:09.920 And so, I was involved in scouting.

00:57:12.080 I was involved in sports.

00:57:13.740 Eventually, I joined the military at a very young age.

00:57:15.760 And I was exposed to other men who helped me foster and develop masculinity within myself.

00:57:21.180 A woman can't do that.

00:57:22.800 And I have guys who will say, they can teach them to do this.

00:57:25.720 And yes, there are elements of life that a woman can certainly teach to a boy, but not everything it means to be a boy and a man because they've never experienced it in their entire life.

00:57:36.880 Right.

00:57:37.320 Yeah.

00:57:37.500 They can't share that kind of experience.

00:57:39.280 Right.

00:57:39.420 Or how to respond or how to harness the chemicals that are racing through your body.

00:57:44.940 It's not the same.

00:57:46.220 No.

00:57:46.580 Not at all.

00:57:47.160 Not at all.

00:57:47.700 I mean, how do you relate to a group of men as a man?

00:57:50.980 Can a woman tell you how to do that?

00:57:52.360 No.

00:57:52.680 Of course.

00:57:53.140 No.

00:57:53.340 Because they've only been in groups of men that women are in.

00:57:56.380 Right.

00:57:57.340 Which is interesting because a lot of guys, and I've said this before, specifically with regards to scouting, where scouting has changed a lot of their rules for transgenders and women and girls allowed in scouting programs.

00:58:09.840 Right.

00:58:10.300 And people say, well, girls can learn that stuff too.

00:58:12.420 No doubt.

00:58:13.180 And maybe they should.

00:58:15.500 It's fine.

00:58:16.200 I don't have a problem with girls learning how to tie knots or go camping.

00:58:19.780 That doesn't bother me.

00:58:20.660 That's not the issue.

00:58:21.460 Yeah.

00:58:21.640 The issue is there needs to be an environment in which boys can learn from boys and men exclusively because when a woman enters the equation, the equation changes.

00:58:33.800 Yeah.

00:58:34.100 Right?

00:58:34.440 We start posturing.

00:58:35.840 We start trying to impress these natural tendencies.

00:58:39.340 Looking for approval.

00:58:40.700 Absolutely.

00:58:41.420 Yeah.

00:58:41.720 Trying to win over.

00:58:43.060 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:43.900 It changes the dynamic.

00:58:45.240 And there is a time and a place for it.

00:58:46.800 Sure.

00:58:46.920 Certainly.

00:58:47.200 But there's also a time and a place for us to be men, with men, only men, so that we can work out our issues together.

00:58:55.540 You know, my boys, for example, they'll fight.

00:58:57.280 My two oldest boys, they'll get in a fight and my wife will run upstairs and be like, stop.

00:59:01.100 Let them work it out.

00:59:02.000 Well, they're fighting.

00:59:03.260 They're wrestling.

00:59:04.520 I mean, yeah.

00:59:05.460 The older one will win because he's bigger.

00:59:07.280 Yeah.

00:59:07.600 And the younger one will start to recognize his role.

00:59:10.540 Hill.

00:59:11.140 This is how we work it out.

00:59:12.280 It's fine.

00:59:12.780 Unless they're in any sort of risk of injuring themselves, they're fine.

00:59:17.040 Right.

00:59:17.200 Just let it be.

00:59:18.760 Let it work.

00:59:19.280 And you know what?

00:59:19.820 It always does.

00:59:20.980 Yeah.

00:59:21.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:23.360 Man, we've been all over the place.

00:59:25.500 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:26.000 We've talked about it a lot.

00:59:26.840 But you know what, guys?

00:59:27.700 Go check out the book, More Complete Beast.

00:59:29.540 Really, really good book.

00:59:30.980 I think I read it in a night.

00:59:31.880 Yeah, it's really short.

00:59:33.300 Really short read.

00:59:33.920 But I was just excited to have this conversation because the things that you had said in the book articulated points that I've kind of always felt a little bit in the back of my mind.

00:59:43.400 But the way that you shared them and articulated them, I was like, yeah, yeah.

00:59:47.680 And I would turn the page.

00:59:48.380 I'm like, yeah, that's right, too.

00:59:49.520 And that's right, too.

00:59:50.720 And so I really appreciated the book that way because it gave me a new perspective and a new framework for the way that I've always kind of thought.

00:59:56.380 But it put some more validity to it.

00:59:57.900 So I really appreciate that.

00:59:59.540 How do we connect with you, man?

01:00:00.480 What do you got going on?

01:00:01.220 I know you've got a conference coming up.

01:00:03.220 Obviously, the book.

01:00:04.640 Where's the best place to go for guys to connect?

01:00:07.480 I'm an Instagram guy, as you know.

01:00:09.040 And my Instagram is at starttheworld.

01:00:11.000 I like that medium because I'm an artist by background.

01:00:14.180 I like to communicate visually.

01:00:15.720 Do you design your own stuff, too?

01:00:17.140 Yes.

01:00:17.760 Because you're wearing it.

01:00:18.520 Yeah.

01:00:18.800 Yeah, okay.

01:00:19.260 I didn't know that.

01:00:19.900 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:20.620 That's awesome.

01:00:21.220 I didn't know that.

01:00:21.700 So that's kind of, in many ways, kind of an interesting art project.

01:00:23.860 Yeah.

01:00:24.300 I had no idea.

01:00:25.540 How do you communicate the things that we're talking about?

01:00:27.260 Well, you can tell.

01:00:28.160 I mean, when you look at your stuff, as far as the aesthetics of the way it looks, I'm like, well, I didn't know it was you.

01:00:32.580 I just said, this guy's got somebody who's good, who's helping him out.

01:00:35.480 Yeah.

01:00:35.640 I didn't know it was you.

01:00:36.320 That's awesome.

01:00:36.900 Yeah, that's my creative thing.

01:00:38.760 Very cool.

01:00:39.160 I do.

01:00:39.720 I do all that stuff.

01:00:40.800 And so, yeah, Instagram and then my website is jackdassdonovan.com.

01:00:45.380 Obviously, I'm speaking at the 21 convention in Orlando in October.

01:00:50.200 I spoke last year and that went really, really well.

01:00:52.520 It was a really cool conference.

01:00:53.640 And didn't that, if I understand correctly, either that one or maybe the year before, it was kind of the catalyst for this book, right?

01:01:00.840 I mean, didn't it come from a presentation you gave?

01:01:02.660 Yeah, no, that speech last year was actually the sketch for this book.

01:01:05.460 Right, right.

01:01:05.680 And then I filled out some of it.

01:01:07.680 It was a really, I think, probably my best speech that I've ever given.

01:01:11.360 So, I mean, it's available online.

01:01:12.780 Yeah, I think I've caught part of it.

01:01:14.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:14.800 It's really good.

01:01:15.520 Yeah, you can watch that online.

01:01:16.960 I think that that's kind of the best introduction to if you want to wonder what the book's about, you know, if you go to 21 Studios.

01:01:22.780 Don't even do that.

01:01:23.420 Just go buy the book.

01:01:24.280 Well, obviously.

01:01:24.940 Do both.

01:01:27.960 Yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:01:29.060 But, you know, I think it's a good introduction.

01:01:31.680 Then, hopefully, the next thing I have coming down that I'm working on right now that I'm really excited about is I'm kind of going to do like a magazine that's like maybe published twice a year.

01:01:40.720 So, I can work in that photography and the elements of design and so forth and then do interviews and philosophical essays and things that are, I think, hard copies of things are important.

01:01:51.620 A good friend of mine who's actually a rare book appraiser, actually, he finally found a way to make money in life because he's a super nerd.

01:01:58.340 He is a brilliant appraiser now and he is flown around the country constantly to evaluate like –

01:02:05.480 Rare books and –

01:02:06.220 Yeah, like books that are like the most expensive books.

01:02:08.680 Right, sure.

01:02:09.080 Like he's picked up – what is it?

01:02:12.020 The printing press.

01:02:12.980 Like the Gutenberg printing press or –

01:02:14.440 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:14.780 He's picked up the Gutenberg Bible.

01:02:16.920 Oh, really?

01:02:17.560 Yeah, he's been in rooms with like the most valuable books in the world.

01:02:21.160 Really?

01:02:21.680 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:22.200 And every once in a while, he'll send me a little picture like that one's worth 15 million and that one's worth –

01:02:27.700 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:28.260 He's like, this is the book that they'll sell to rebuild the entire library.

01:02:32.660 One of the things he's made very clear to me, I think, over time is like all that stuff is still there.

01:02:38.540 Books last.

01:02:39.940 And I've had things that I've written online that were really popular that are no longer available.

01:02:45.220 Right.

01:02:45.600 Because the website went down.

01:02:46.660 Yeah.

01:02:46.840 Or something changes.

01:02:47.600 Something crashed and you didn't have a backup.

01:02:48.320 And it goes away.

01:02:49.100 But books stay around.

01:02:50.260 I mean, there are copies of The Way of Man and some of my other books in libraries.

01:02:55.820 And that stuff stays around.

01:02:56.600 And I think it's really important to put out stuff in hard copy as time goes on.

01:03:01.100 It stays around and you can kind of stay on the desk of time.

01:03:03.340 I think it becomes more valuable too, the less that it's out there and the less that it's –

01:03:07.640 I remember I had the transcript of the book that I had written on my computer and I was proud of it.

01:03:13.840 But it really wasn't until I got the copy of it.

01:03:16.500 Oh, yeah.

01:03:16.760 You get it and you're like – you're holding it in your hands and you can feel it and you can look at it and you can smell it.

01:03:21.760 You're like –

01:03:22.240 Yeah.

01:03:22.420 But it's just – there's just something to be said for that.

01:03:24.400 Somewhere there's going to be a copy of that after you did.

01:03:26.560 Yeah.

01:03:26.760 I think that that's really, I think, something, a way that you can leave a legacy in the world when you're doing the kind of stuff that we're doing is to put it in a hard copy.

01:03:34.840 And so that's why instead of doing everything for online, I'm going to move more towards hard copies.

01:03:39.920 He's like – so I can put out like maybe a couple books a year that have all these things in them.

01:03:44.000 Yeah.

01:03:44.140 So I think – I'm really excited about that.

01:03:46.120 I think that's a good way forward.

01:03:47.660 That's cool, man.

01:03:48.280 Keep us in the loop on that because we'll definitely help out there.

01:03:51.000 Well, I got to ask you.

01:03:51.780 I mean, I know we've been talking about today.

01:03:53.180 But as we cap this thing off, the question is what does it mean to be a man?

01:03:57.600 The classic question.

01:03:58.080 The classic.

01:03:58.640 I've asked it like 200 times now.

01:04:00.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:01.000 The answers never get old because I hear them all.

01:04:02.960 So it's awesome.

01:04:03.680 Right, right, right.

01:04:04.860 What does it mean to be a man?

01:04:06.540 The meaning makes it interesting.

01:04:08.100 I talk a lot about what it is to exhibit masculine qualities.

01:04:13.240 What does it mean to be a man?

01:04:14.320 I think that has to do a lot with the way you perceive yourself as a man in the context of larger group of men.

01:04:22.360 It's an interesting question.

01:04:23.680 I think it becomes who are you and how do you fit into the bigger picture is actually what it means to be a man.

01:04:30.320 The definition is the same across the board.

01:04:32.480 To me, it's strength, courage, mastery, and honor.

01:04:34.380 What it means to be a man is to be a man, to inhabit a male body, to go through life, and experiencing that in the context of in your relationship to other men.

01:04:45.420 Life experiences that women will never have.

01:04:48.260 And I think that's something that I think is important for us.

01:04:51.540 Right on.

01:04:52.180 Love it, man.

01:04:52.800 All right.

01:04:53.320 Cool.

01:04:53.680 Well, we'll call it a wrap.

01:04:54.460 I think this afternoon we're going to meet up with another mutual friend and go throw some axes.

01:04:58.940 Sounds good, man.

01:04:59.760 Right on.

01:05:00.100 Thanks, man.

01:05:00.420 I appreciate you.

01:05:01.340 All right.

01:05:01.860 Awesome.

01:05:03.720 Gentlemen, there you go.

01:05:04.740 My conversation with Jack Donovan.

01:05:06.880 I hope that you enjoyed this podcast.

01:05:08.880 Again, very fascinating.

01:05:10.140 Him and I resonate and get along with and have so many similar viewpoints about what it means to be a man.

01:05:15.820 And it's so refreshing because, as I said earlier, very few people are willing to have the types of discussions that we are having and talk about it in the context, in the way in which we discussed it.

01:05:24.860 So I would definitely encourage you to pick up a copy of Jack's new book, A More Complete Beast.

01:05:30.460 It's a very quick read, but it is jam-packed with so much information.

01:05:35.220 And as I said in the conversation, it articulates the ideas and thoughts that I've had and certainly some of you have had on masculinity very, very well.

01:05:44.300 And I think you'll walk away with a better understanding of who you are as a man and how we're supposed to show up in this life.

01:05:50.300 Again, it's called A More Complete Beast.

01:05:52.880 But go ahead and connect with Jack on Instagram.

01:05:54.840 He's pretty active over there.

01:05:55.800 Connect with me on Instagram, at Ryan Mickler.

01:05:58.660 On Twitter, at Order of Man.

01:06:00.400 Facebook, YouTube.

01:06:01.920 Of course, this podcast.

01:06:03.160 Again, share the podcast.

01:06:04.400 Leave the rating and review.

01:06:05.980 Guys, we really appreciate you being on this path and this journey.

01:06:08.600 I hope that you know that when I set out to give men the tools and the resources that we are, I never had the idea that I was going to actually get more from you and more from my guest than the value that I was trying to provide.

01:06:24.460 And man, I just can't tell you how inspired I am each and every week to see you stepping up as fathers and husbands and community leaders and every facet of your life.

01:06:33.340 It's absolutely incredible.

01:06:34.860 And I have become a better man because of you.

01:06:37.720 So, with that said, I appreciate you being part of The Order.

01:06:41.460 This is an organization.

01:06:42.660 It's a brotherhood.

01:06:43.360 It's a fraternity of men all over the world working to reclaim and restore what it means to be a man.

01:06:48.740 And again, couldn't do it without you.

01:06:50.200 So, with that said, I'll sign out for the day.

01:06:53.080 And until tomorrow for my Ask Me Anything with Kip Sorensen, guys, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:07:01.480 Thank you for listening to The Order of Man podcast.

01:07:03.920 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join The Order at orderofman.com.

01:07:11.660 sub-familyjones.com.

01:07:19.400 Ohh.

01:07:21.080 I'm sorry.

01:07:21.380 I'm sorry.

01:07:21.880 I'm sorry.

01:07:22.940 I'm assistant will begin since you're nombre.

01:07:23.500 And transfer-card replications.

01:07:25.320 InVidix.com.

01:07:25.640 You're in New York City.

01:07:26.440 You're in New York City.

01:07:27.300 I've been the host of Major of Panthers.

01:07:28.260 I've been the host of New York City, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA.

Order of Man - October 02, 2018

A More Complete Beast ｜ JACK DONOVAN

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