Andrew Klavan is an award-winning author of The House of Love and Death, among many other books, as well as the podcast host of The Andrew Klavan Show with The Daily Wire. He s also seen on both sides of the political and spiritual spectrum as a liberal turned conservative.
00:00:00.000Every single man listening to this podcast sees issues with the current culture and yet far too many men are unwilling to do anything about it.
00:00:09.080Whether it's a disdain for current culture commentary or a bad case of apathy, ignoring what we see going on around us isn't going to lead to anywhere positive.
00:00:19.640My guest today, author and podcast host, Andrew Klavan, is a man who is and has been for decades actively engaged in dealing with the decline of our current culture through writing, producing films, and podcast commentary.
00:00:34.640Today we talk about rationalization and justification for doing the wrong things, why so many people tap dance around biological reality, why we're losing this country through the movies and the arts, changing culture through art,
00:00:47.920when and when not to compromise, and ultimately viewing your own life as a work of art.
00:00:54.280You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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00:01:09.480This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.
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00:01:18.600Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host and the founder of this movement, the Order of Man movement and podcast.
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00:02:07.860And we're trying to make a difference and reclaim and restore masculinity in a world that is increasingly dismissive and hostile towards it.
00:02:16.180I've got a great one for you lined up today. Before I do, I just want to mention that I've got my good friends over at Montana Knife Company.
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00:02:33.360I just got back from a hunt last week. I could have used this knife. It wasn't available then, but I am excited for my upcoming Whitetail Hunts,
00:02:40.540which I do have another one that I think we're going to be going on in December.
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00:03:07.800I want you to save some money if you're going to spend some. So use the code ORDEROFMAN to save some money.
00:03:12.140All right, let's get to my guest. His name is Andrew Klavan. I've been a longtime follower of this man and listening to him for years now.
00:03:21.060He is the podcast host of The Andrew Klavan Show with The Daily Wire. The Daily Wire is on my playlist.
00:03:28.660It's Andrew Klavan, Ben Shapiro, and Matt Walsh take up a lot of my consumption of podcast time.
00:03:35.940But anyways, back to Andrew. He is an incredibly talented and award-winning author of his latest book, The House of Love and Death, among many dozens of other books.
00:03:46.500And as a popular podcast host of The Andrew Klavan Show, he uses his wit and humor to address some of the most polarizing cultural topics of the day.
00:03:55.240He's also seen both sides of the political and spiritual spectrum as a man who not only was once liberal turned conservative, but through his own Christian conversion as well.
00:04:06.920So he's well-versed. He's got a lot of great information, very grounded, very principled, and I think you're going to enjoy this podcast.
00:04:15.740Andrew, thanks for joining me on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this one for some time now.
00:04:20.360That's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:04:21.800Yeah, I've had Ben on the podcast. I think we were going to have Matt on the podcast. It was a little before What Is A Woman came out, and then he got busy, I'm sure, with the popularity of that.
00:04:36.560And I was telling you before we hit record on this conversation, between you and Matt and Ben, that consumes a lot of my podcast listening time.
00:04:45.440Well, I'm glad to hear it. I guess I'm glad to hear it. I'm not sure it's good for you, but still.
00:04:49.760I haven't totally got behind Michael Knowles just yet, so I will have to work into that one a little bit.
00:04:57.580Well, if you get behind him, I'd put him in a chokehold. It's the only thing that keeps him quiet.
00:05:01.460Well, I enjoy your take because contrary to the other guys in the Daily Wire lineup, you seem to bring a lot more comedic relief, which I think is a welcomed element of this commentary when it comes to culture and political events and current events.
00:05:23.640It's because everything's just so hard. It's so challenging, and it's so toxic and negative, but you bring this comedic relief that I think is much appreciated, at least on my end.
00:05:34.460Well, I appreciate that. I've always had this strange glitch in my sense of humor that my wife has scolded me about many times, which is that I find corruption funny.
00:05:44.220I know that corruption is in some ways a terrible thing because it can end up doing terrible things to people, but if you just isolate it on its own, it's usually the stupidest thing a human being can do, and yet they do it with such vigor and verve that it's hilarious.
00:05:59.680You know, that people just somewhere along the line, some guy thinks, you know, yeah, I'm going to cheat to get my kid into college, or, you know, I'm going to steal votes or whatever the things that people do, and you just think it's the stupidest possible way forward, and yet people keep doing it.
00:06:14.320It's just something very funny about the human condition.
00:06:16.400Yeah, it is interesting. I mean, we talk about this quite often is that it seems to me that there's this natural man inside all of us that navigates towards that, right?
00:06:30.740The lie, cheat, steal, do whatever you can to accomplish the results without the effort, immediate instant gratification, and we know better, and yet, to your point, we continue to fall into it all the time.
00:06:42.440Yeah, so there's an old joke about what is a lie? A lie is an abomination to God, but a friend in need, and it's like, that's what I think we do, you know, in the moment, in the moment, it helps to lie.
00:06:55.220Down the road, no matter how many times you learn this lesson, down the road, it's going to catch up with you, but people just can't seem to get around it, and it's also, you degrade yourself, you know, people are unhappy when they live like this, and you're actually much happier if you live as straight as you can.
00:07:07.660That's an interesting point. I think that there's a lot to be said for that with regards to mental, not illness necessarily, but just the emotional and mental strain and weight that comes with living a life out of integrity with yourself.
00:07:21.700Yeah, and the way, you know, it puts you in this position of honor among the people who love you, you know, if your wife knows that you are who you say you are, if your kids know that you'll do what you say you're going to do, if your friends get to understand that, you know, you walk with respect and dignity in the world instead of having to constantly feel that you're hiding some deep, dark secret that you can't get out.
00:07:45.980You know, you're just, you're just less afraid all the time. You don't have to worry about so much.
00:07:50.980Right. Yeah. Just a clear light conscience, right?
00:07:54.320Yep, absolutely. And by the way, as you get to be, you know, my age, which is like 172, you know, you start to, it just enhances your life. The past, as long as you have had integrity in the past, it enhances your life in the present. You're just in a much, much better place.
00:08:11.340And I know so many people, I worked in Hollywood for a while and I know so many people who sold out to get something they wanted in the moment and their lives are such, such a dreadful thing. It's like, it's like, you know, in a Christmas carol, the ghost who drags that chain around. That's what they're like. And it's just, I just don't feel like that. And it's, it's a great relief.
00:08:29.780Yeah. Well, how did you get hooked up with the Daily Wire? Because it seems like it's a deviation from the, the route that you were taking with regards to writing books. And then you just mentioned alluded to the fact that you spent time in Hollywood with directing and having some of your, your, your books turned into films. What was that transition like for you?
00:08:48.680Well, it was kind of bizarre. You know, I, I came back, I, I lived in England for seven years. I left in the nineties because I got sick of political correctness. And I just thought, you know, I just want to get out of the country for a year. So I took my family to London for a year and we stayed for seven years.
00:09:04.080And I was a liberal when I left, I was kind of a disgusted liberal, but I was still a liberal. And when I came back, I realized that all the people who were saying the things that I thought I'd been away from American politics. I didn't see the shift, but when I got back, I realized all the people who were saying the things that I thought were conservatives. They were at national review, Rush Limbaugh, who I'd been told was the greatest devil who had ever risen from hell. I was listening to him. I thought, no, this guy's actually kind of making a lot of sense, you know?
00:09:30.840And so it put me in a weird position because I had just started working in Hollywood after a life of writing novels. And after 9-11 happened, Hollywood began to churn out these anti-American films. And they were not just anti-war. They were basically saying our soldiers were rapists, our soldiers were killers, and we were picking on the innocent Muslims and all this stuff.
00:09:54.100And I thought, you know, I don't actually care what your opinion is. It's a free country. You have whatever opinion you want. But it's wrong to make movies that depict our guys as the bad guys while they're being shot at. You know, that's a bad action, no matter what your belief system is, because it's giving propaganda to the enemy.
00:10:11.160And, like, if you look at the great Vietnam films that were anti-Vietnam, but they were all made after the guys had come home. And some of them, like Oliver Stone's pictures, were made by people who had been there.
00:10:21.160And you thought, okay, well, you know, sure, tell me what you saw and what you think, but don't do it while our guys are in the field.
00:10:27.160So I started talking about that. And I started saying, you know, this is bad.
00:10:31.240And my Hollywood career, which had been going exceptionally well, just turned off, you know, like this.
00:10:38.540So my income literally went from, like, six and seven figures to zero.
00:10:43.800And so I wasn't going to stop talking. I mean, there were guys literally getting blown up.
00:10:49.320So the idea that I wasn't getting to write some stupid movie was like nothing, you know, didn't.
00:10:53.940I mean, it was painful to lose the income, but still, you know, I wasn't going to change that.
00:10:59.320And I bumped into a guy who was also a mystery writer named Roger Simon.
00:11:04.280And he was starting a place that was kind of the Daily Wire before there was the Daily Wire.
00:11:08.480It was called PJTV. And he asked me if I would come on and do videos.
00:11:12.420And I said, man, the last thing I want is to be in front of a camera.
00:11:15.400I've lived my life in my room, making up stories, you know, doing research.
00:11:18.820I love that life. I do not want to be a public figure, you know.
00:11:22.100And he said, well, just look at what we're doing.
00:11:24.080So I looked and I don't know if you remember, got Bill Whittle.
00:11:26.360He was just a terrific commentator, very serious and very, you know, fact-based.
00:11:31.560And this is history and all this stuff.
00:11:33.420But he was a high-level talent, but just very, very, you know, dead-faced and into the camera.
00:11:38.840So I called up Roger and I said, I will do this if you let me do Bill Whittle as Monty Python.
00:11:44.380If you just let me make fun of what this guy is doing, you know, because I love it.
00:11:47.760It's great. It's great stuff, but it's just not the way I look at the world.
00:11:50.220I have a much more comical sense of the world.
00:11:51.960And so he said, sure. And I came in and did it and it just kind of took off.
00:11:56.320You know, I was shocked. Like I thought it was still very early internet days.
00:12:00.940And so these satirical videos would get like, you know, over a million hits.
00:12:04.320And suddenly, like I was recognized places.
00:12:07.780And Jeremy Boring, who was a friend of Bill Whittle's, and Ben Shapiro, who I knew kind of in passing, we would see each other from time to time.
00:12:16.060And they came to me and said, you know, after PJTV, after I left PJTV, they said, we're going to start a new enterprise.
00:12:22.460Would you do it for us? And I said, sure. You know, it was fun.
00:12:25.940You know, so I did it for them. We had an enterprise called Truth Revolve.
00:12:30.560And it went very well, but we got fired.
00:12:32.380They basically, it was a donor supported thing and the donors just pulled out.
00:12:37.380And so Jeremy Boring, who's really the genius behind the Daily Wire, he just said, hold on a minute, because I'm going to rebuild this on a capitalist model so we don't have to deal with donors.
00:12:48.840And he rebuilt it in the form of the Daily Wire.
00:13:35.700It was it was a genuine shock to the system.
00:13:38.340I have to tell you, it was a real change of lifestyle.
00:13:41.340But I really did begin to feel because of my absence from the country.
00:13:47.040I felt that our culture was so damaged and so in need of voices of voices who weren't afraid of being canceled or being yelled at or being called names that I thought I had no choice.
00:13:59.520You know, I there was no way out of it, basically.
00:14:02.540Yeah. So it was a different life than I was expecting.
00:14:04.960But it's I've had a great time and the people are great.
00:14:07.320You know, the people, you know, you talk about Ben and Matt and I tease Knowles all the time because he's a buddy.
00:14:12.020But like they're all terrific people. So it's just been an absolute pleasure.
00:14:16.500Yeah. I mean, I can even tell when I watch your listen to your your live backstage podcast.
00:14:21.460You can tell you guys are just good friends hanging out, having a good time.
00:14:24.920And that's the way I think it should be.
00:14:29.240It was just really like the four of us.
00:14:31.180It was Ben and Knowles and Jeremy and me.
00:14:33.920And we spent all our time just talking and arguing and getting around and smoking cigars.
00:14:38.840And then suddenly we were in this corporation.
00:14:41.720You know, it kind of happened while we were getting around.
00:14:43.940And so, yeah, it was a great experience.
00:14:47.040Yeah. Tell me a little bit about I'm fascinated by Jeremy Boring because he's not a public facing person.
00:14:52.720He's, you know, I think from my perspective, anyways, he's behind the scenes while it's you and Michael and Ben and Matt and the crew out there forward facing to the public.
00:15:01.680But he seems like a very fascinating, very intelligent, savvy businessman.
00:15:10.960Yeah, no, he is a really interesting guy.
00:15:13.760He used to kind of he used to be I was talking about this guy, Bill Whittle.
00:15:17.920He used to just hang around with Bill Whittle.
00:15:19.520And so I would I was working with Bill and I would see this guy and I would listen to him and I would think, you know, he's kind of offbeat.
00:15:25.600He's kind of offbeat. Like, you know, it didn't occur to me that he was, you know, a cut above or anything like that.
00:15:31.480But I thought, like, he has actually interesting ideas and conversation with him is interesting.
00:15:35.520And and so what I then began to learn about him was that he had a fascination with the way things work and that which is something that, you know, the mechanics of things, the way things hold together.
00:15:48.960And and he has incredible business instincts.
00:15:53.240He every person who works with him, he has a way of finding what it is about them that appeals to people.
00:16:00.820And I can I can I won't, but I can name people who while they were following him around or letting him kind of, you know, work on their careers, they became famous.
00:16:11.100And the minute they broke with him, they just disappeared.
00:16:13.660He just had a way of saying, you know what it is.
00:16:15.920The thing about you that people want to hear is this.
00:16:19.520And and I, who am very protective of who I am and what I want to say, because I want to speak for myself still, I would learn, you know, like, OK, I'm not going to do anything that's against, you know, my principles or what I believe.
00:16:31.460But if I phrase this this way or I put it this way or I concentrate on this, it's going to get the message out further.
00:16:37.260And he's just got a it's a literal form of genius the way he does that.
00:16:41.880And he saw it and Ben, he understood, like, I've been around broadcasting all my life because my dad was a DJ.
00:16:47.840And I I I knew when I heard Ben that he was a major broadcasting talent, but I would never have known how to build him into the thing that Jeremy built him in.
00:16:58.180And he's just been really, really good at that.
00:17:00.540And I think sometimes I think sometimes the behind the scenes of it, you know, he he likes to be in front of the camera.
00:17:08.160But I think he's just so good at what he does behind the camera that I think it it's kind of a it's just kind of compels him to be doing what he's doing.
00:17:18.460And he's you know, he's there's not not one of us.
00:17:22.800It's only he is the only one who has taken this thing and turned it into what it is.
00:17:29.500The rest of us are talent. You know, we we are we do hopefully good work and all that stuff.
00:17:34.420But he's the one who has manipulated it and worked it into a great business.
00:18:39.180And then, you know, what is a woman obviously blew up probably the most I would say, at least anecdotally, the most impactful documentary, I would say, maybe in the past five to 10 years.
00:19:00.720It's just amazing. And then you have Benke now with children's entertainment. It's just amazing. All of these little moves. And I'm just I'm standing on the sidelines thinking this team is just on top.
00:19:13.360Not only are they on top of it, they're out ahead of it, predicting what needs to be happening and what needs to be created. It's very fascinating.
00:19:19.440You know, the funny thing about this is when I started talking, when I came back from England and I started talking to people, I kept saying, you know, this stuff is not just low hanging fruit, it's fruit lying on the ground because no one will touch it.
00:19:33.760So, so, so for instance, a long time ago, when I was still at PJ TV, I did a video how to solve the Middle East crisis by having the one state solution where you just give everything to the Jews, because they're much better at running things than everybody else.
00:19:50.460Give the whole Middle East to the Jews. Yeah. So I thought that joke is so obvious, the one state solution, that someone must have made it, you know, and I didn't want to steal someone else's joke.
00:20:00.260So I went online and I'm looking for it. I'm looking for it. No one had made the joke. And I thought, wow, you know, and that just happens again and again.
00:20:08.520There's nobody making the obvious jokes about the way leftism destroys everything. Everything it touches turns to crap.
00:20:15.700Every single thing that leftism comes near is done with great self-righteousness and great vigor and, you know, we're the progressives and it just crumbles to dust.
00:20:25.160And no one is making jokes about it because everybody in Hollywood and everybody in the business is a leftist and they're all cowards.
00:20:31.360They, you know, they're afraid to say what is, they're afraid to say what is a woman, you know?
00:20:35.780And so in some ways, in some ways, it's simple, except that it takes a little bit of guts and you have to be willing to be canceled and called racist and all the other things that they call you that, you know, people don't like that, especially people like us who weren't racist.
00:20:49.920Because, you know, we don't like being called, oh, sorry about that. We, uh, we don't like being called those names, but, but if you just are willing to take the heat, um, all those jokes and all those stories are just waiting to be told.
00:21:05.080Yeah. It is interesting when you talk about not, not wanting to say what is a woman. It's very interesting to watch people tap dance around that question.
00:21:13.120Like clearly, clearly they know the answer to the question and they just cannot bring themselves to completing the sentence. It's hilarious. Like you said, it's sad, but it's also hilarious.
00:21:27.460That's it. That's it. Yeah. And, and, you know, it is, it is, it is a, uh, you know, testimony to the power of other people's opinions. Like people want to be liked.
00:21:41.520And now that we're all online, you know, you can be liked by a million people. And so it's a great power that people have over you. And it's, it's amazing that one day some angry and angry, lesbian college professor will say, well, there's no such thing as gender. You just, you just are whatever you identify as.
00:22:00.320And, and, and within, you know, a year that becomes absolute doctrine. It becomes absolute gospel truth. So if I say, well, you know, a man, men and women are different and a man can't become a woman.
00:22:12.120I'm actually demonetized on YouTube. And you want to say to them, well, why, what, what evidence do you have? What science is behind this? It's nothing. There's nothing there. And so it's this, it's this massive power of shaming and censoring and finger pointing that just makes people silent.
00:22:30.020And to me, the fact that a woman can be asked, what is a woman and say, I don't know, it is, is so sad and so shocking, but as you say, also hilarious, you know, and so all those stories and jokes are just waiting to be told.
00:22:44.760Yeah. I was, I was hunting this last week and, and we had shot a couple of deer, me and some friends of mine, and I had shot a doe and I put it up on the rack and skinned it and cleaned it and gutted it and everything else.
00:22:55.420And he had shot a buck and cleaned it and skinned it and gutted it. And I looked over and the difference was noticeable just in size alone, right? Between a buck, the male and a doe, a female.
00:23:07.260And I said to him, I'm like, yeah, but you know, men and women are the same.
00:23:13.820And it's just, it's again, it's hilariously sad that we can look at something that's so biologically evident and people will say, well, you know, but humans is different.
00:23:25.420No, it's not different. It's we're part of nature. We, we, yes, we were more intelligent, you know, than other species out there. And there's social constructs that certainly we have created a culture, for example, would be one of those things, or just community presences is a socially constructed thing, but we can't, that doesn't usurp biological truth.
00:23:47.420Right. And in fact, we build, we build these social constructs out of biological truth. I mean, it's not, it's not that, it's not that God decrees that women wear skirts and men wear pants. We do that because it's beautiful. It makes, it takes something that we love. This is the thing that drives me nuts. I have to tell you, like the love between men and women is the central joy of life.
00:24:10.240I mean, that is the thing that makes life worth living. Every song, every story, every movie, every play book is all about the love of men and women. And these guys have managed to make it problematical, as they would say, simply by theorizing it out of existence.
00:24:25.440Of course, you know, you know, you know, the French, they say, vive la difference, you know, hooray for the difference. You know, it's only these people who think that any difference is somehow bad. These social constructs are there for a reason. They grow out of who we are. They are built on top of who we are. They're not making us anything new.
00:24:44.440I have to tell you, just in terms of the comedy of it all, probably the most controversial thing I ever said was after watching, oh, it was about that monster hunter. I can't remember what it was on Netflix. It was a fantasy about a monster hunter.
00:25:02.080And it had a woman, it had a woman in a sword fight, a medieval sword fight. And I said, a woman would be crushed in a medieval sword fight. A woman would be, I said, they wouldn't even kill her. They just walk through her to get to the man behind her.
00:25:13.820And people went nuts and people were challenging me to sword fights. And I was like, no, you know, you cannot be thinking this. Just take a look at what it looks like. You know, it's not that a sword is so heavy. It's not heavy for five minutes, but on the sixth minute, it becomes very, very heavy.
00:25:31.440And these guys, you know, and it's just hilarious what people will tell themselves if they think it makes the world a better place. And if they think people will hate them, if they don't agree, it's, it's a comedy of lies. Yeah.
00:25:44.720Yeah. I think, I think you alluded to something that's important is what is the, the social risk of buying into this or, or bucking the current system. Right. You know, it's right. If you speak the truth, then there is a risk of you being canceled.
00:26:01.860There is a risk of you at a minimum being called out for being a misogynist or a racist or a homophobe or a transphobe or this or that, which really isn't, maybe it's just the nature of the work that you and I do.
00:26:14.240So at this point, people say, how do you deal with all the things people say? I'm like, I don't really even hear it anymore. It's just so common. I can't even hear it. It just, it just becomes background noise that I've, I've become accustomed to.
00:26:26.600That, well, that is the thing. And you know, your own heart, you know, you don't hate anybody, you know, you're just trying to speak the truth as you see it. And so eventually you either go with that or you're dominated by other people, you know, other people's opinion becomes your conscience instead of your conscience. And, and I think that that's, you know,
00:26:44.240I think that only lasts so long, even in the Soviet union with the full power of the government to enforce it, people ultimately started to say, you know what, this system is working, you know? And I think it took, it took a long time because you went to prison for it here.
00:26:58.800They've almost got to that point. There are times when they'll send you to prison. I mean, they've, they've burst into the homes of people who oppose abortion and things like that. But still, we still have enough freedom where if you start to say, you know what,
00:27:12.660I'm going to start making jokes about this, it really collapses. I mean, these things are just, they're so sensitive to humor. They're so fragile. You know, why, why do trans people, the trans movement is, is a violent movement because all you have to do is say, you know, the emperor isn't wearing any clothes and the whole thing vanishes. The whole make-believe vanishes. You know, all you have to do is look at Rachel Levine and go, this person is psycho.
00:27:37.760You know, this isn't a woman, this is a psycho guy. And, and, and it's just, it's like the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. You know, the scales fall from everybody's own child thing. And the more fragile it is, the more they have to censor you to try and keep it in place.
00:27:52.340Ultimately, I, I think that effort gets just too much for society to bear. And so it matters that there are people like us who aren't afraid, you know, it matters that, that we say these things because then other people start to think like, yeah, that's, that's kind of true. I want to say that too.
00:28:08.340Yeah. Well, and I think comedy is a great approach and this is why I think comedy needs to be protected maybe more so than, than any other form of communication because we, we've historically allowed our comedians to say the things that we don't let anybody else say.
00:28:23.940So it's this little outlet, it's this little vein. And obviously there's a tinge of truth or total truth in every comedic sketch or every joke that's told. And, and that's why it's so powerful that we need to protect that, that comedy, I think.
00:28:36.700Yeah. And, and, and the, they know the, whatever you want to call them progressives, they know this and we don't. And that, that was what I started with. That's what, when I started talking about this, I started saying, you know, you guys don't realize you guys are so worried about some congressional district in Ohio. You don't realize you're losing the country at the movies. You're not losing at the box, at the ballot box. You're losing at the box office. You know, this is, this is where, and they know it. That's why they keep us out.
00:29:05.680That's why they shut us down. That's why if a, if a movie actor, God forbid that some movie star comes out and says, you know, I'm voting for Trump.
00:29:12.800They just absolutely hammer him where, whereas if a politician does it, they attack him, but it's not the same. They know that the culture is where we live and the culture is where our minds and hearts and consciences are shaped.
00:29:24.740And so they just want to keep iron and control on it. And that's why the internet is so important. And that's why they're trying to control the internet. I mean, look at Elon Musk taking over Twitter and making it X.
00:29:35.680The government is now investigating every business he's in. He used to be the hero of the left and now he's being investigated. You know, why? Because they know that the culture is what matters.
00:29:46.040Man, let me take a break from the conversation very quickly. I told you earlier, I recently got back from a week long hunt in Minnesota. And as important as hunting is to me, it pales in comparison to the value in banding with other men in this battle of life.
00:30:01.600Too many men go at it alone. They don't have any friends or colleagues or acquaintances or accountability or brotherhood that they can lean on and rely on in times of comfort and in crisis.
00:30:13.120And that's why I created the iron council as a tool, not only to give you the systems of structure and accountability, but to introduce men from all over the world to the power of a committed brotherhood.
00:30:26.880We're not currently open. So that's the bad news. But if you want to be notified when we open back up again in a week, excuse me, a month and a half, then you could head to order a man.com slash iron council.
00:30:40.900Again, that's order a man.com slash iron council sign up to be notified. And that way, when we open back up and you're ready to hit the ground running for January 1st, you can be the first to be notified again, order a man.com slash iron council. We'll see you inside.
00:30:54.500I think, uh, as you were talking about Hollywood and being ostracized, obviously you, you receive some of that. The one exception to this and not totally, but who's able to have some staying power, I think is somebody like Chris Pratt, who, you know, you, you hear him talk about his conservative values, his Christian principles, and he talks about it openly and publicly.
00:31:14.560And you can, you know, he receives a lot of backlash, but for whatever reason, uh, he's managed to maintain his foothold in Hollywood as an A-list celebrity. That's kind of an interesting phenomenon to me.
00:31:24.700Yeah. Well, he got, I mean, he kind of kept it down. He kept it quiet until he, he got a foothold and he still, he still keeps it, you know, soft. He plays it soft, but that's fine. But, but yeah, he's, he's an exception. Clint Eastwood is an exception. Uh, you know, guys who are, who are untouchable like that. Um, but it's really hard. I mean, even, even guys think of like the most outspoken actor I can think of as John Boyd.
00:31:52.080I, I, I, I know actors who've been taken aside by guys like Boyd and just said, told, you know, like keep your mouth shut until you make it. And then maybe you can start talking because they will crush you. And I, I mean, we used to have a, when I was in Hollywood, we had a thing called the, uh, the friends of Abe, which was a secret society of conservatives. And they called it the friends of Abe because in the old days, when people were ashamed of being gay, they called them friends of Dorothy, you know, like in the wizard of Oz.
00:32:19.740So we were the friends of Abe, like Abe Lincoln, cause we had to keep it quiet. And it, it was embarrassing. Like I used to complain about it. I would say, look, I don't want to be quiet. I, you know, I'm, I'm happy to speak, but a lot of the people in the organization were, you know, lighting guys and voiceover guys and, you know, uh, uh, small time actors.
00:32:39.740And they'd be crushed if it came out. So it was like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. You come and say, you know, hi, my name is Andrew and I'm a conservative. And, and, you know, it was like, no, it was really, it was really awful. Because at the same time you were doing that, you were going into script meetings and pitch meetings.
00:32:58.740And people were saying to you like that George W. Bush, he's a Nazi, isn't he? In the meeting, in a business meeting. And so, and if you did what I would do is I would just say, well, I'm on, I'm on the other side. They would throw, throw me out of the room. I can't, I can't say on the air, some of the things that were said to me.
00:33:16.680And God forbid, if you were a black person and said conservative things, that was, it was heartbreaking the way they were treated, you know? And so, and so the secrecy thing is, was bad for us, but it was there because, you know, they were just, their control over the culture is what matters to them. And they're smart.
00:33:37.980Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, you know, to go back to your comment about being, being black, I think about somebody like Candace Owens. I mean, I, you know, everybody has heard the, the names that she's been called, the, the attacks, the threats that, I mean, it's unreal. And this is the, this is the side of peace, right? That does all of this stuff. I don't understand that at all. I want to go back to something you said, because we skipped over it.
00:34:01.420You said Jeremy Boring had this great ability to know what other people wanted to hear from, from certain people like yourself, for example, what would he say about you? What would he say is your skillset and people wanted to hear from you?
00:34:16.220Well, for instance, I, I came in and the idea with me, we sort of had these plans that, you know, was that I was going to do essentially a kind of late night show. You know, I was not going to be the political commentator and all this. And we, you know, Jeremy came to me and he said, listen, you know, we,
00:34:31.240this is, that's the place we want to get to, but we are just a political site by nature. And you have to kind of focus on that and try to do your humor through that and try to get at the culture through that. And I thought like, okay, you know, you got to fish where the fish are. There's no point in my talking if nobody's listening, you know?
00:34:46.120And so that was really, really helpful to the way I shaped things. You know, again and again, we've, we've been in conversations where we shaped the show and, and made it, you know, you can't be anything but what you are. You can't pretend. I can't pretend to be a clown. I can't pretend to be, you know, an acrobat or anything like that.
00:35:07.200I can only do what I do, but you can put it in certain contexts. And there are certain things that certain avenues that you can take that people are open to. And he's just really been helpful about that. And he's, he really has with everybody done that.
00:35:21.980And it's, for a long time before this, he was the hidden hand behind a lot of stuff like Prager University, all kinds of video stuff that he was, that he was being consulted on. And this was the first time he got a chance to sort of do it for himself. And I think it, you know, the result is obvious.
00:35:40.080Yeah. It's, it's, it's been, it's been unbelievable to, to see how he's, he and you have been able to, to grow this business. Now, I guess, I guess I want to fast forward and bouncing around a little bit here. Cause I have so many different questions and thoughts on this.
00:35:54.940You, you had also mentioned this idea of being in Hollywood where you, you know, this more conservative friends of Abe type group gets ostracized. But if I understand correctly, you, you grew up and came from a liberal background.
00:36:08.500And, and, and, but then you, it's interesting when you talk about moving to England because it was too politically correct here. Did you experience the same thing there? And obviously that was, I'm, I'm assuming before you decided that you were no longer a liberal and you were more conservative in your approach to life and culture.
00:36:27.400Yeah. I mean, what happened was I stopped paying attention to American politics. Yeah. I lived an English life. My kids were in British schools. My friends were British. I read British papers.
00:36:38.500You know, it was the Clinton era. He was having an affair with Monica Lewinsky. I sort of, you know, we all knew about it, obviously, but it just was not what I was paying attention to. I was paying attention to British politics and British idea of British. I watched British television shows. That's what I was doing.
00:36:51.160And so, and so, and so it helped me, it helped detach me from the culture in which I'd grown up. And so I could think for myself, I could just think like, oh, here's, instead of saying, oh, here's Donald Trump and I hate him, or here's Barack Obama and I hate him.
00:37:07.040Here were people I didn't know anything about saying things. And I could just say, well, that doesn't sound right to me. That sounds false to me, you know? And, and I remember vividly a, a very, very famous literary agent who was a friend of mine being interviewed in an American paper saying she would never handle a book by Rush Limbaugh because he was so evil.
00:37:28.460And I wrote her in those days, we didn't have email. We were just starting to get email. I actually wrote her a letter saying, you know, I'm sure he's as evil as you say he is, but actually conservatives are the ones being censored, not the left. And you should actually support people and let them express their ideas.
00:37:45.600So that, like, I didn't even know how far a shift that was. You know, if I had been in America, everybody would have jumped down my throat. But in Britain, like nobody really knew who Rush was. And so, you know, it's just a kind of, it was obvious to me, you know?
00:37:59.800So that was, that was really, it was really helpful to get away. And Britain also was about 10 years behind us in terms of political correctness. Now, I think it's worse over there. But then it was still, you know, the mass immigration hadn't started. It was still very much a British country. It was losing it, but it still had it.
00:38:21.760And I got in a couple of real fights with people. But because I was an American, it wasn't vicious, if you see what I mean, because they kind of thought of me as an alien, a guest, somebody who might come up with something, you know, you know what I mean? It was easier to have those arguments with people. And so it just transformed me without my knowing I was being transformed. It was a very painless process, you know, and helpful.
00:38:50.280And now I go back and they look at, now I'm their conservative friend. When I go back to talk to my British, you know how people have a gay friend, I'm their conservative friend.
00:39:00.820Or a black friend or something, you know? So, but if I had been like that at the beginning, I think it would have been harder for me to make friends because I was in the arts. The arts are kind of typically liberal. And I knew all the people in the British arts, but they just kind of took me as an eccentric American type, I think.
00:39:19.040Right. So when did you start to realize that the path that you're on with regards to liberalism wasn't the path that you wanted to be on or wasn't serving you well? Or did something transpire or did it just gradually happen over time with age and wisdom? Like what did that look like for you?
00:39:36.060Well, at first it was very subtle because what would happen was I would look for people who were thinking the things that I was thinking, right? I was thinking my thoughts because I'd been away.
00:39:45.300And I found them on National Review. They had a thing called The Corner where Jonah Goldberg would speak to some other writer. And I think, yeah, that makes sense to me.
00:39:53.280And when I heard Rush and I thought, no, he's actually kind of funny and sensible and all this stuff. But then 9-11 happened. And 9-11 happened. And there was kind of a pause about two days.
00:40:04.060And then David Letterman, who for your younger audience was like the hip late night comedian at the time. David Letterman came on his show and he said, and I'm from New York. All my family was in New York. So it was a devastating, I was devastating for everybody, but it was personally devastating to me.
00:40:23.140And I was watching David Letterman and he said, you know, I have to think about this out loud. I have to ask myself, why do they hate us? And I thought, are you kidding? You know, they hate us because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. I mean, they're Nazis. These are literal Nazis. They just, you know, I don't have anything against an Islamic person.
00:40:46.220But this version of Islam that they're putting forward is a small, mean, brutal, violent version of this religion. And it's a Nazi religion. And of course, they're supposed to hate us. We should be glad they hate us. It would be terrible if they didn't. It's like asking. It was just like asking why Hitler hated us. He hated us because we were us, you know. And I thought that a top, this was, you know, this was a top late night comedian. He would be Stephen Colbert today, I guess, would be the guy.
00:41:14.180And you think like, you know, why would he even ask himself that? And that was a change from when I left. When I left, there was political correctness. There was silly stuff going around. There was, you know, radical feminism, as we called it at the time. All that stuff was there. But I don't think that a mainstream guy would have gotten up and said, like, we really have to fix ourselves so these fascists stop attacking us. You know, that's a crazy thing to say, you know.
00:41:40.440And so that was kind of the wake up call where I thought, whoa, things have really changed and not in a good way. And this should not be, it should not be, you know, free speech is fine. I don't want him to be arrested for it. But it should not be socially acceptable to put us second to a culture like that.
00:42:00.920And I still feel that way. And that was why when they started to make these movies, you know, Lions for Lambs and Redacted and all these rendition, they all even sounded the same.
00:42:11.620All these movies in which our soldiers were the bad guys, you know, in that situation. And again, you want to be anti-war, that's fine. But our soldiers were not the bad guys. They were the good guys.
00:42:23.540And so what was fascinating about this is to show you what a bubble these people are in. All these movies bombed. Every single one of them bombed. Green Zone, they all bombed.
00:42:33.080And Variety, which is the trade paper of show business, you know, they wrote an article saying, well, people just don't want to see movies about the war on terror.
00:42:42.760No, they don't want to see movies about the war on terror where we're the bad guys.
00:42:47.640And then Clint Eastwood made American Sniper, the biggest grossing R-rated film of all time, one of the biggest grossed R-rated films of all time.
00:42:55.560So help me. Variety put out an article. Gee, we thought people didn't want to see the war, you know, films about the war on terror.
00:43:03.560They couldn't figure it out. It was an absolute mystery to them what the problem was.
00:43:07.760And that was an honest film. It showed you the horrors of war. It showed you all the things that, you know, that it's not fun.
00:43:13.420That you had to kill people, kill children and things like that. It was a genuine depiction of war and what war actually is.
00:43:21.380But we were the good guys, you know, I mean, and the guy says I would stand before the throne of God and defend every time I pulled the trigger.
00:43:32.540And you couldn't help watching them thinking, yeah, of course. Yeah. And, you know, I'd stand right there with you.
00:43:37.080You know, of course you would. And and that's why it was a hit.
00:43:40.520You know, it was a great movie, but it was also a movie that depicted the truth.
00:43:43.920And so this is this is like the problem that I discovered coming back.
00:43:47.560And this was the thing that really changed me because I'm a culture guy. That's what I do.
00:43:51.900I write novels. I have written movies. You know, it's like that. That's my life.
00:43:56.020And I could see that that had become toxic and poisonous, one sided.
00:44:00.920And the people like me were being blacklisted and kept out of it.
00:44:04.860And it was it was bad for the country.
00:44:06.800Yeah, well, I see the same thing with what's going on with Israel and Hamas right now.
00:44:14.100It's like the amount of support that's behind Hamas, like just popular support, cultural support.
00:44:21.600I don't understand the ram the justifications for for what is happening.
00:44:25.780I it's hard for me to fathom. And I'll be the first to admit I'm not I'm not well versed on everything that's going on in the Middle East.
00:44:32.320But I but I think I can look at it and figure out pretty quickly who the good guy is and who the bad guy is, the equation.
00:44:39.620But it seems to me like we're actively fighting against that that reality.
00:44:45.120That's that is I mean, look, again, I'm happy to concede their complexities and all this stuff.
00:44:51.400But if you're out protesting and chanting in favor of people who cook babies alive and rape women on the bodies of their murdered boyfriends, you're on the wrong side.
00:45:04.180You know, it's such a little light should go on in your head.
00:45:06.860But but as part of the comedy of it all, you know, you have these, you know, LGBTQ people saying, oh, hooray for Palestine.
00:45:13.800While the Palestinians are saying, if you come here, we will kill you because we hate LGBTQ people and feminists.
00:45:20.360I mean, I love Susan Sarandon, the actress saying I stand with Palestine, a place where they would dress her like she was the ghost of Christmas yet to come.
00:45:27.460You know, I mean, a place where the kind of movies she's made would get her killed.
00:45:31.080And so the kind of silliness of it and the the obvious blindness of it is evidence of an ideology that has no relationship to reality.
00:45:41.700You know, that's that's what happens when you have an ideology that isn't in tune with reality.
00:45:45.820And that's all culture. It's all culture. It's all people thinking, oh, this is what makes me a good person.
00:45:50.760You know, and and if it's not, if the Daily Wire and other if the Daily Wire doesn't succeed in entering the culture sphere, if other people don't imitate us, we will never win because they will keep convincing each generation anew that this madness is the truth and it will will go down in flames.
00:46:13.320But I'm very I'm hopeful. I'm very hopeful we will change the culture, but it has to be done. It's a work that has to be taken on.
00:46:19.900Yeah, no, I'm hopeful and optimistic, too, especially with you guys leading the charge of of entering cultural conversations, artistic film, like other businesses.
00:46:32.400These are the kind of conversations and businesses and organizations that that need to start.
00:46:36.560I mean, it's yeah, it's absolutely imperative that we try to recapture some of this because we're not going to do it in the military.
00:46:44.020It doesn't seem like anymore. We're not going to do it at the academia level.
00:46:49.260Even the medical community is corrupted and we're not going to do it there.
00:46:53.260So I think we need to begin to infuse some of these conversations into the cultural and art art talks that we've been having.
00:46:59.760You know, when they were Disney was going to make a live action version of Snow White and the actress started going around saying, yeah, but she's not going to, you know, run off the prince.
00:47:11.620That's she's not going to be saved by some man. And, you know, we're not going to have romance and all this stuff.
00:47:16.460So Jeremy announced that he would make a live action version of Snow White in accordance with the actual story.
00:47:22.460And I texted him. He was overseas and I texted him and I told him, I said, I will I will die with your name on my lips.
00:47:29.340I said, I will be calling your name on my deathbed because that is so funny and such a great you know, it's such a great thing for people to see someone say like, oh, if you don't want to do it, we'll do it.
00:47:39.180You know, instead of instead of just complaining, which has been the kind of default mode for conservatives up to this point, you know, and I used to say to people, you know, the culture will only be saved by people who love it.
00:47:51.160The arts can only be saved by people who love the arts. You can't sit around and say, oh, there's too much nudity.
00:47:56.520There's too much this. There's too much of that. And not make beautiful stuff because anyone can complain.
00:48:01.500But to make stuff is what the arts are all about. And I'm thrilled that we're doing it, you know.
00:48:07.020Yeah, I think you well, you guys did the Snow White with Brett, Brett Cooper, right?
00:48:12.460She's they're making it. They haven't made it yet.
00:48:14.700They're making. Yeah. I actually saw something the other day that said that they're Disney is pausing their rendition of Snow White.
00:48:20.580I don't know if that's accurate or not, or if that's just, you know, fake news.
00:48:24.360No, no, apparently it is. I think they were testing it and it was terrible.
00:48:28.660And, you know, there have been a couple of hilarious ones. They have Blade.
00:48:33.140You probably don't remember Blade. It was a great actions trilogy with Wesley Snipes as a good guy vampire.
00:48:40.880So they started remaking it and they have that great actor.
00:48:44.260I can't pronounce his first name. It's Marashala or something. Marashala Ali.
00:49:18.000Yeah. Well, how does your how do you I mean, you've written a ton of different novels and you've got a new one coming out.
00:49:23.600And I'm curious how how writing novels, does that fit into the concept or is that something that is just a thing that you love to do and you want to create?
00:49:33.660And there's no greater purpose to it other than you like to create, entertain and put that type of information out of the world.
00:49:40.060Well, well, I love telling stories and I love writing, writing stories and I love prose.
00:49:45.920I actually love writing prose and I I've always maintained that we can't change the culture by making conservative culture, by having conservatives make culture.
00:49:57.140The way you change the culture is by having artists, which is what I am, who are conservative artists who believe in freedom, artists who believe in men and women, artists who believe in God creating good stuff.
00:51:01.280The new book is called The House of Love and Death.
00:51:03.220And it's part of this this bestselling series about a guy named Cameron Winter, who is essentially, you know, all the stories recently that have been about men have been about antiheroes.
00:51:15.580So you have like The Sopranos, you have Breaking Bad and you have The Shield, guys who are corrupt.
00:51:21.580And the reason for that is when masculinity is outlawed, the only men are outlaws.
00:51:27.160You know, that's that's the only express.
00:51:28.880So what I wanted to do is take a guy who was an outlaw, who was a bad guy, who finally just says, no, wait a minute.
00:51:34.600I'm going to see if I can change that, turn that around.
00:51:37.300So my guy, Cameron Winter, is a guy who has worked for the government.
00:52:01.740And I do like to pound them and see if I can get people to go out and try them because I think they're different.
00:52:07.620Yeah, well, you know, and what I like is admittedly, I up until relatively recently, I haven't read a whole lot of novels.
00:52:13.380It's mostly self-help and personal development, you know, because that's the space I'm in, which is great.
00:52:18.940But I got burnt out on a lot of those books, you know, it was all the same information and telling me things that I pretty much already knew, just a new way of looking at it or a new system in order to enact it.
00:52:30.260But the reason I like novels like yours is because you see yourself in in the individual.
00:52:35.820Right. And you can see what that that individual is working through the the the redeeming qualities, the not so redeeming qualities.
00:52:44.420Like you can find yourself in those characters if they're developed and written well, which I know yours are.
00:52:50.300That's exactly I think that that's exactly right.
00:52:52.800That is exactly the description of what art does.
00:53:01.100And you come away just like you might come out of an actual experience in your life thinking, wow, I really that really changed me.
00:53:07.740I think art does that at a level, too.
00:53:10.160You know, you read enough good stuff, you start to see the world much more richly and deeply.
00:53:15.380And I just think that that is a really, really healthy thing.
00:53:18.340And it's one of the things that has been so toxic about this left wing culture.
00:53:23.480So I'm trying to imagine what men who listen to this podcast might be thinking now.
00:53:27.900And I've heard things like this where, you know, it's nice that you found an outlet and that you've made money and you've been successful in Hollywood and been successful in other ventures.
00:53:36.820And I would love to follow a passion of mine, but, you know, I have to put food on the table.
00:53:40.640And we're talking about changing the culture through art, which many guys that listen have things they'd be interested in doing, but don't feel like they can do that based on their current circumstances.
00:53:51.080What would you say or how would you encourage a man in that position?
00:53:55.200Well, first of all, you have to realize that, like, artists, artists are an important part of the culture.
00:54:02.240You know, they reflect the culture back at you.
00:54:04.500And so you can see it more easily and you can contain it.
00:54:07.980But everybody's part of the culture, like everything you do and the way you live and the way you appear to other people and the things you say and the things you believe in.
00:54:17.660And so if you're a guy like I know a lot of guys, especially in Hollywood, who behind the scenes yammer on about their conservative beliefs, but when they get out into the public, they don't say a word because they're so scared.
00:54:29.940That's part of the culture that affects that is a work of culture, that fear, that silence, that unwillingness to speak your mind is a work of culture.
00:54:38.620If you are a guy who speaks with integrity and acts with integrity and treats the people around you with integrity, you are making a huge, huge difference on the culture.
00:54:47.620It is amazing what one man with integrity can do in a culture.
00:54:52.260It's amazing what people who will speak honestly.
00:54:55.040Look, I don't think we need to speak angrily or meanly or cruelly to anybody.
00:54:59.760I just think you speak the truth and take the hits.
00:55:02.960That changes the culture all the time.
00:55:04.980I think that every single person is carrying the culture like a candle in his hand.
00:55:10.700And if he behaves in accordance with his beliefs, if his beliefs are sound, if he shows himself to be both honest and strong and joyful, that to me is just like throwing a cigarette into a dry forest.
00:55:29.400I mean, that will have more effect than you can possibly imagine on all the people around you, especially the young people, especially in the case of men.
00:55:38.440It will have an effect on the women around you.
00:55:40.340And I think it's just an enormous thing.
00:55:42.800And I think people don't, you know, people get sloppy.
00:55:47.480They stay too stoned to think about it.
00:55:49.780They don't think, you know, what is my life is my contribution to the culture.
00:55:55.160It's important that I live it in a way that makes other people want to live it this way, too.
00:56:00.940You know, and I think that before you even think about the novel you want to write but can't get around to, you should think about your life because it's the one work of art that you have complete control over, not in terms of what happens to you, but in terms of how you react to it and how you show yourself to be.
00:56:17.140Yeah, well, and I also think as you were talking about this, speaking your mind, but also this idea of compromise, I think too often people are compromising their own values or certain things that they shouldn't be.
00:56:30.400Compromise is great, I think, in certain circumstances, but I don't believe that it's inherently virtuous to compromise.
00:56:37.040And I think that people believe that, you know, it's like we need to be nice.
00:56:41.780It's like, no, I'm not really willing to compromise on a lot of this stuff, and yet we make those concessions all the time, which leads us down a negative path, I believe.
00:56:50.840Yeah, no, I mean, it's really interesting.
00:56:52.900If you have like chocolate and vanilla, you can mix them together.
00:56:55.660But if you have chocolate and crap, you can't.
00:57:00.960You know, you're with a person of goodwill trying to find a way forward.
00:57:03.960Yeah, sure, I have no problem with compromise.
00:57:05.920But if I'm with a person, you know, you were talking before about Israel and the people saying the two-state solution, you can't negotiate that with people whose charter literally says we are going to exterminate you.
00:57:17.940There can't be two states, one of which is dedicated to exterminating the other.
00:57:22.900So, yeah, there are plenty of places where people of goodwill can compromise, but there's no place where people can compromise with lies and evil.
00:57:30.040Yeah, I mean, you see that with the calls for a ceasefire.
00:57:33.660It's like, hmm, a little late for a ceasefire.
00:57:36.240You know, that would have been helpful about a month and a half ago before everything kind of went down.
00:57:41.820And now the can has been opened, so to speak.
01:01:16.480I've been looking forward to talking with him for some time now.
01:01:18.860And like I said in the podcast and to him that I've been a longtime follower of his work.
01:01:22.920And I appreciate his humor and the lightheartedness in which he addresses some very serious conversations.
01:01:28.740It brings something to the equation and to the table that I think is much needed in our very contentious political and cultural and societal discussions.
01:01:38.680So, I hope that you will tune in to Andrew.
01:01:41.260You'll check out his podcast, The Andrew Clavin Show, and also his latest book, The House of Love and Death, among many other books that he's written.
01:02:03.700And then it helps us land and secure other incredible podcast guests that can bring information to you that I hope will serve you in some way as you're on your own path to reclaiming and restoring masculinity.
01:02:18.080Take action and become the man you are meant to be.
01:02:20.860Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
01:02:23.680If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.