Order of Man - Becoming a Minimalist ｜ Joshua Becker

00:00:00.000 Every time you turn around, you're bombarded with a thousand ads, a million choices,

00:00:04.500 and an endless supply of options and quote-unquote opportunities.

00:00:08.140 It's becoming increasingly difficult to manage the landscape of the ever-growing decisions that

00:00:13.220 need to be made. Add to that our desire to be seen and perceived a certain way by people

00:00:17.680 we may not even know or like, and it's easy to see why this disease of wanting more is becoming a

00:00:23.540 real problem. My guest today, Joshua Becker, makes the case for why more is less. He argues,

00:00:28.740 and I agree, that having less stuff in our life can truly unlock the key to a more meaningful

00:00:34.140 and purpose-driven life. We talk about the benefits of owning less, why we have the desire to own more

00:00:40.420 than we'll ever need or even use, the burden extra possessions place on our lives, and how you too

00:00:46.300 can become a minimalist. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears

00:00:51.660 and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every

00:00:57.400 time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.

00:01:04.300 This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and

00:01:09.840 done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,

00:01:15.800 and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and this movement, The Order of Man. Guys, this is a

00:01:20.980 movement of helping men become better men. And I've had a lot of people ask what that even means.

00:01:26.620 I have to leave that for you to decide. It's up to each man to decide how he's going to show up for

00:01:32.160 his business, his family, his community, every area and every facet of life that he shows up in.

00:01:37.780 But I will say that we have the framework, the foundation, the foundational elements,

00:01:42.500 if you will, of what it means to be a man. And that is of a protector, a provider, and a presider.

00:01:48.100 Now, how each man fulfills and steps into those roles and into that calling is different. But I

00:01:53.660 believe that is at the core, the foundational principle of what it means to be a man and

00:01:57.860 everything that we're doing here in this podcast and the blog and the movement and the YouTube

00:02:01.340 channel and the social media profiles and everywhere that you can find us is all geared towards helping

00:02:06.900 men become better protectors, providers, and presiders. All of this in a society that I think

00:02:12.700 dismisses and shuns and looks down upon manliness and masculinity. And we are attempting to and doing

00:02:20.140 successfully restoring and reclaiming what it means to be a man. So whether you're new here

00:02:26.340 or you've been listening for three years, I want to welcome you. I want to welcome you to this show.

00:02:32.140 This could not be possible without you. And I am glad that you are here. We've got a good show lined

00:02:37.620 up and it's along the same lines of the show last week, but I thought this would be a good trend.

00:02:42.300 This would be a good theme. And it is that of becoming a minimalist and getting rid of the stuff

00:02:48.460 and the clutter and the chaos and the confusion that comes with having more than we'll ever need

00:02:53.580 or use. Like I had mentioned in the show intro. So before I get to that, I do want to make one quick

00:02:59.140 announcement. I announced this on our Friday field notes last week on Friday, and that is the

00:03:05.140 immersion camp that's going to be put on by origin main. Now this is in September. It's a week long

00:03:12.040 or a three or four day event. If you want to choose that, I think there's a couple of different

00:03:15.660 options, a Brazilian jujitsu training class course, immersion camp, whatever you want to call it.

00:03:22.460 I'm going to be out there for the entire week. I've got another half dozen, probably a dozen by the

00:03:27.060 time all is said and done members of order of man who are going to be there. Pete Roberts,

00:03:30.840 Brian, the founders of origin are going to be there. Jocko with his whole crew,

00:03:34.120 Leif and JP Donnell with echelon front echo Charles as well. They're all going to be there.

00:03:39.260 So guys, if you can make it, I'd love to have you there. And also the beauty of this is that

00:03:43.520 if you come with us, you are going to get an order of man rash guard. I'm having some custom

00:03:49.600 rash guards made for the event itself. And then of course you can take that home. 0.90

00:03:53.600 We don't want that back and join us. All right. So that is August 26th through September 2nd of this

00:04:01.420 year. If you are interested, you can head to origin, main.com, get registered, get signed up,

00:04:07.300 leave me a message. Let me know you did. And we'll, uh, we'll go from there guys. I don't have

00:04:10.680 a whole lot of announcements outside of that because I want to get right into the show today,

00:04:14.260 because as I said earlier, it is important. And I want to introduce you to my guest.

00:04:18.680 His name is Joshua Becker. He is the founder of becoming minimalist and the bestselling author of

00:04:24.140 the more of less. And in the spirit of what we're going to be talking about today,

00:04:28.580 I'm going to keep it very, very short. We were introduced by a mutual friend who had taken much

00:04:32.900 of what Joshua has been teaching and he incorporated into his own life. I did some initial research and

00:04:39.320 immediately recognized a need to adopt the practice of what he terms rational minimalism

00:04:45.360 into my life. I've already begun implementing some of his teachings. And I can honestly say that I have

00:04:50.860 been able to free up more mental and emotional and physical capacity for the more important pursuits

00:04:58.380 in my life. I know you will as well. So take some notes if you have to, if you have to come back

00:05:03.480 and catch a replay and take some notes then, because you're working out or doing yard work or

00:05:08.180 whatever it may be, do that. But guys take this stuff to heart, implement this in your life. And I

00:05:13.140 know, I know you'll see big improvements. Joshua, what's going on, man. Thanks for joining me on the

00:05:19.480 show today. Hey, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me looking forward to this. Yeah. Oh, me too,

00:05:23.480 man. This is such a critical topic. I think there's this society in which we live is this

00:05:28.000 level of just overconsumption. God, it must've been about six months or so ago. I had a very

00:05:33.640 similar thought to what you ran across, which is, do we really need all this stuff? I'm curious

00:05:39.800 why you found living the minimalist life to be so valuable for yourself.

00:05:45.380 Man, I found minimalism 10 years ago. And 10 years ago, I decided that me and my family,

00:05:52.300 we would purposefully own less stuff. And I got to tell you, honestly, Ryan, over 10 years,

00:05:59.820 I cannot think of a single negative effect of that decision. Only positive things that have

00:06:08.800 happened in my life and positive benefits, positive effects of the change in my life.

00:06:16.240 What are some of those positive benefits?

00:06:17.780 Oh man. It's very funny when I, whenever I speak on this, I'll always ask the room full

00:06:23.560 of people, turn to your neighbor and answer this question. If I were to own less stuff,

00:06:29.680 in what practical ways would my life improve? And it's fascinating because I have never asked that

00:06:37.500 question to a quiet room. Like no one struggles answering that question. They turn to their neighbor

00:06:45.040 and they start talking right away. Well, we'd have more time available. We'd have more energy.

00:06:49.020 We'd have more money. We'd have less stress. We'd be living a better life for the environment. We'd be

00:06:54.160 a better example for our kids. We'd experience more gratitude and have opportunity for generosity.

00:07:00.080 It's just very interesting how all of these like very practical, positive benefits of owning less.

00:07:08.040 And most of us never take the time to just sit down and think about them until someone asks us to.

00:07:13.820 Yeah. That's a good point. I know when you asked that question, the knee jerk reaction for me was

00:07:18.360 more focus, you know, time to focus on the things that are actually important versus the things that

00:07:23.200 other people tell me are important or I perceive to be important. But when you drill down into it,

00:07:28.760 they just, they just aren't.

00:07:30.180 Yeah. Just fewer distractions. I mean, in the very short term, like fewer physical possessions around us

00:07:37.900 means that our eyes are less distracted. Our minds are less distracted by all the things around us,

00:07:43.220 but then you multiply it over a lifestyle where if you've just decided that you can be content

00:07:49.680 owning less and that you are happy owning less. And suddenly the focus of the distraction of all

00:07:56.720 the things that we spend our lives chasing, right? Like bigger houses and nicer cars and more clothing

00:08:04.820 and technology and toys and money, like just remove all of that from your life. And suddenly

00:08:12.000 you have what's left, right? Like the things that actually matter, the things that we actually find

00:08:16.700 happiness and fulfillment in.

00:08:19.100 If nobody has a hard time answering the question of why this would improve their lives,

00:08:23.480 why is it so hard for people to do? Or is it, they just don't think about it. It might,

00:08:27.160 it might have to do with that.

00:08:28.040 Yeah. I think it's the latter. Certainly we, we live in a culture that tells us the exact opposite

00:08:33.760 message. I think last I saw the statistic, it was that we see 5,000 advertisements every single day,

00:08:40.880 1 million by the time we reach the age of 21. And they're all telling us at their core that we are

00:08:47.360 not as happy as we could be unless we buy whatever they're selling. Our life isn't as happy as it could

00:08:53.900 be. It's not as fulfilled. It's not as convenient. It's not as luxurious, right? Like this is the heart

00:08:59.020 of every advertisement. And I think what happens is we hear that message so many times and from so

00:09:05.940 many places that we subtly begin to believe it without even realizing that we've bought into it.

00:09:14.060 We start to believe it. And so if you were to ask anyone, Hey, what's most important in your life?

00:09:19.420 Like no one says, what's most important is I just want to own as much junk as possible, right? Like

00:09:26.040 no one answers that when you ask them, but their life is actually, is focused on that. And you can

00:09:33.200 see, you know, their time and their energy and their money is focused on constantly acquiring more

00:09:38.480 and more stuff. And so I think one of the things that makes it so difficult to see or understand is

00:09:44.120 that we've, we've bought into a lie very subtly, very subconsciously. And we don't even realize that

00:09:50.840 we bought into it until, you know, someone turns on a podcast like this and starts thinking a little

00:09:56.000 bit differently about what they've gotten, if it's all been worth it. And this actually reminds me one

00:10:00.740 of the things I heard somebody say, and this made so much sense to me, and this kind of woke me up to

00:10:04.540 this concept and idea is that we wear busyness, like a badge of honor. You know, if you go ask 10 people

00:10:10.780 today, how things are going, it seems like nine out of 10 of those people will say, Oh, it's good.

00:10:15.640 It's so busy as if somehow busy is the objective. Like it's the goal that we should all be striving

00:10:20.700 to. And I don't think that's the case. I want to be effective. I want to be efficient, but I

00:10:24.860 certainly don't want to be busy. Yeah. I think it's a Jeff Schinnenberger in his book, more or less.

00:10:30.020 He, uh, he says busy has become the new fine. Uh, you used to ask people how they were doing and

00:10:35.220 everyone just say that they're fine, but now you ask how anyone's doing and they say that they're busy.

00:10:39.200 I think rather than being busy, I think the goal should be focused, right? Like even what you said,

00:10:47.060 like we do want to live the best life that we can, and we do want to accomplish the most important

00:10:52.960 things with our life. And we do have a desire to be significant and make an impact. The problem is

00:10:59.100 we, we just get busy with so much stuff that doesn't matter as opposed to staying focused on

00:11:05.440 the very few things that actually do. I think that's a good distinction because it is easy to

00:11:10.380 say, let's just take work for example, and think that the next course that you buy or the next

00:11:15.780 conference that you attend or the next product that you own or next technology that you, that you're able

00:11:21.040 to harness that somehow that will improve your productivity. And there's probably a reason we

00:11:27.220 believe that because there is truth to it, but also what expense does that come at? And I think

00:11:33.400 we've got to understand that there's an expense to everything. Sometimes that expense is seen

00:11:37.980 because we're paying for it. And other times it's the closing off of other opportunities that may

00:11:43.080 present themselves because we're so consumed with other things that don't really play into the grand

00:11:46.680 scheme of things. Yeah. And even, you know, stripping it down to what I write, you know, a lot about

00:11:52.780 physical possessions. We've got this idea that, that if I get this, you know, if I acquire this,

00:11:58.660 it's going to improve my life. Um, and we don't like, we count maybe the, the financial cost of

00:12:05.240 what it is. And we look at our bank account and there's enough in there or there's enough on the

00:12:09.720 credit card limit yet to buy this. And it becomes, it becomes the only filter, you know, do I have the

00:12:15.460 money to, to buy this? Meanwhile, we're stockpiling more and a bigger and greater burden, um, that we

00:12:22.540 have to carry on our, our shoulders that we carry every day. I've, I've begun to say that I, I don't

00:12:28.260 think anybody realizes the burden that physical possessions have become on our lives until we take

00:12:36.620 the step to remove them. And as we do, we, we suddenly find up that we were freed up and we,

00:12:42.520 we do have time and we do have energy and we do have money to do those things that are most important.

00:12:47.860 We just unfortunately let them get crowded out.

00:12:50.480 Do you find that a lot of people do this to impress others? I'll be honest. There's times

00:12:55.960 in my life where I have done that, whether I bought some article of clothing, I don't need

00:13:00.480 or a new firearm or, you know, a vehicle that you're driving around or the bigger house that

00:13:04.720 you probably don't really need and won't really use. Is that part of the reason that people do this?

00:13:11.260 Oh, I think there's a whole bunch of reasons that people do it. Um, we, um, we went to our house,

00:13:17.380 uh, we lived in Vermont at the time. We, we ended up going as me and my wife, we had two kids. My

00:13:22.000 son was five. My daughter was two at the time. And, uh, we started going through our house. It took

00:13:27.080 maybe, I don't know, eight or nine months. We got rid of about 60, 70% of our things, things that we

00:13:32.940 just didn't need things. I've never missed. I always tell the story. I took a van load of stuff to

00:13:38.260 goodwill and it felt great. I took a second van load of stuff to goodwill and it felt great.

00:13:43.640 By about the third or fourth van load of things that I was taking to goodwill,

00:13:48.880 like it got more and more difficult internally because at some point on my third drive to goodwill,

00:13:55.300 I looked around at the boxes of stuff in the back and asked myself, why in the world did I have three

00:14:02.360 van loads of things in my house that I didn't need? Like why, why do we buy stuff that we don't need?

00:14:10.740 I mean, what's the, what's the motivation? Why, why would we run around buying a bunch of stuff

00:14:15.400 that we don't need to have to live our lives? And oftentimes I don't think we always like the

00:14:21.380 answers that we find. Um, you know, sometimes it's about impressing people like you mentioned,

00:14:26.420 but I, you know, sometimes I think it's jealousy, um, try to prove that we're successful to other

00:14:32.820 people. Maybe, you know, advertisements maybe have a little more of an effect on us than we ever

00:14:37.820 thought. Maybe we are a little more selfish and greedy and self-centered than we ever would have

00:14:43.320 admitted. Maybe we are looking for security and happiness and the things that we buy. I,

00:14:48.380 I think impressing others is certainly one of the things that pops up for most people,

00:14:52.440 but there's more motivation to it than that for sure.

00:14:55.360 Yeah. I could see just in thinking about this. One of the other things that I might consider

00:14:58.900 would be a scarcity mentality that, Oh, you know, if I don't have this, then

00:15:04.280 something's going to go wrong. Or if somebody else gets this and I don't, then I'll have less and

00:15:09.220 they'll have more. And we start comparing ourselves to what other people are doing as

00:15:12.320 well. I could definitely see how there's a lot to this beyond just a few little factors.

00:15:16.480 The, uh, scarcity mindset is a tough one in a world of abundance.

00:15:20.720 Well, it's interesting just because it's counterintuitive, right? You think that scarcity

00:15:25.720 means you want more to me, that sounds a little counterintuitive, but I imagine it's a large part of this.

00:15:30.180 You know, I talked to someone one time who, um, had a whole basement full of Christmas toys is what

00:15:37.900 she said she had. And she said, I know what the problem is. Every year after Christmas,

00:15:43.160 I see toys on sale. And so I go buy a whole bunch that I'm going to give to my grandkids or

00:15:49.900 neighbors or kids at the church, whatever it might be. And she said, and by next Christmas time,

00:15:54.380 I always forget they're there. Christmas ends and I go to the store and there's all these toys on

00:15:59.280 sale again. And so I, I buy them all again. And it's this mindset of, Oh, this sale isn't going

00:16:06.680 to happen again. There's, there's never going to be this opportunity to do it again or to buy this

00:16:11.900 now. And so she buys it. Meanwhile, that sale comes along every two months or three months or

00:16:17.800 every week if you're at cold and she just ends up with all this stuff, right? It's this scarcity

00:16:23.160 thinking in this world of abundance needs to lots of problems.

00:16:26.480 Yeah. I have a conversation with my wife. I call it the Costco effect where she'll say,

00:16:31.320 it's such a great deal that we need 400 tubes of toothpaste. I'm like, we, we don't need,

00:16:36.820 and we'll never ever consume that much toothpaste. And it's just not worth the saving. And that's,

00:16:43.760 what's interesting is you hear people will say, well, I'm saving money. I'm saving money. Well,

00:16:48.080 it's impossible to save money by spending money. And I think that's what a lot of us fall prey to.

00:16:52.880 For sure. For sure. There's a, there's a time and a space, I suppose, for getting a good deal.

00:16:58.720 Sure. Yeah. 400, 400 would be a lot of tubes of toothpaste for sure.

00:17:02.900 What, what role or research or how much have you dived into the idea of habit and how spending

00:17:12.440 habits play? Because I know people and myself included in the past have literally been addicted

00:17:18.280 to spending money. Is this a big factor that can be overcome that needs to be overcome? What are your

00:17:23.920 thoughts there? I think that owning less is great, but wanting less is even better. I do find that

00:17:35.340 there are different journeys that people have to go through. The journey to own less is pretty common

00:17:42.820 in our world, never in human history of human beings owned as much stuff as they do now. And so

00:17:49.240 there is definitely a rise in popularity of minimalism and decluttering and simplicity and

00:17:56.860 owning less and Marie Kondo and everything, right? Like people are drawn to the idea of owning less.

00:18:03.960 They want to get organized. They want to get decluttered, but it is a, I think a different

00:18:09.200 pathway to saying, okay, not only do I want to own less, but I want to own less for the rest of my

00:18:19.420 life. I have found a better life, owning fewer things, a life that is more focused on things that

00:18:27.240 matter, a life where I get to direct my money and my time and my energy and focus towards the things that

00:18:34.280 I actually want to be directing my life towards. Otherwise, most people, they just declutter

00:18:40.600 everything and then keep spending and they just fill everything back up again and they have to go

00:18:45.980 back and declutter again. This idea of overcoming consumerism, I think does require a little more

00:18:54.420 reorienting or thinking about, you know, what is money for and what is important in my life and what

00:19:02.420 good can I accomplish if I were to free myself from consumerism? I think that that's a different

00:19:08.160 pathway that people really need to soak in. And honestly, I think that's where the greatest

00:19:13.600 benefits are. Like I think that's where we find the greatest significance in life is when we are able

00:19:18.840 to remove that desire for consumerism entirely. And we walk into a store and we're thankful for all

00:19:25.400 the things that we don't want to buy in the store as opposed to, you know, constantly looking for the

00:19:29.780 things that we do want to. This sounds a lot like dieting to me, you know, where people will diet

00:19:35.140 and we're coming up in the summer months. And so they'll diet and they'll get the 30 or the 60 day

00:19:39.480 beach body or whatever it is. And it's not really a change of lifestyle. So it will produce results,

00:19:44.940 no doubt, but it's not a lasting result that I think most people are, or at least say that they are after.

00:19:52.360 Yes, indeed. And ultimately, you know, a lot of dieting, ideally, right? It's about health. I think it's

00:19:58.320 about when you live a certain healthy lifestyle, it's not, again, just so that I can impress

00:20:05.040 everybody with my body necessarily, but it's so that I can live a healthy life, so that I can live

00:20:10.360 a long life, so that I can work hard, so that I can accomplish important things. This, I think,

00:20:15.480 is the true, the better motivation. Less vanity and more health, I think, is what we need if we're

00:20:23.280 dieting or lifting or whatever it might be. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things that

00:20:28.260 you had just said a minute ago that was interesting to me is you brought up the subject of money and

00:20:32.540 what it means and how we use it and interact with it. Can you explain your philosophy behind

00:20:38.260 money? I'm assuming you have one because you brought that up. So I'd like to hear your take

00:20:41.580 on how that plays into your life. Yeah, gosh, how much time we got. I can talk about this forever.

00:20:47.380 We got about 20 minutes. Can you distill it into that? Yeah. Money is a very fascinating thing to

00:20:54.860 me. And my degree, my college degree is in banking and finance, although I ended up becoming a pastor.

00:21:01.620 So there you go. So money and finance is certainly something that I've spent a lot of time thinking

00:21:06.680 about. However, for most of my life, it was, how do I get more money? How do I manage money better?

00:21:13.860 This is the type of thinking that most of us have when it comes to money. And what I've learned is

00:21:20.320 the statistics are, I don't have them in front of me, but it is something like 80% of Americans

00:21:27.500 have financial related stress. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Which I find to be a fascinating statistic

00:21:36.120 considering the fact that we are like one of the wealthiest nations in the history of the

00:21:43.840 world. We have food, we have shelter, we have clothing. The stress is not from we don't have enough

00:21:54.080 money. Like certainly most of us are providing for ourselves just fine. The problem to me is that we

00:22:01.540 have begun looking for money to provide something that it was never going to provide, happiness and

00:22:09.280 security. We think that money will bring us happiness and we think that money will bring

00:22:13.720 security. And we always think that because money hasn't brought us happiness and money hasn't brought

00:22:19.920 us security, that the answer is I just don't have enough money. Yeah, that you need more of it.

00:22:25.020 Yes. And so if my income was at this amount, if my bank account was at this count, if my net worth was

00:22:30.460 this, I would then feel happy and I would then feel secure. And so we work hard, whatever,

00:22:36.480 we get to that next dollar amount. And we find out again that it doesn't bring us happiness and it

00:22:42.560 doesn't bring us security. And so we think to ourselves, oh, I just had the wrong number. I need

00:22:50.200 to make more. I need to have more. And then I will find these things in my finances. And so we're always

00:22:57.380 stressing about it because we don't think that we've ever have enough. I just think that money is

00:23:02.640 never going to provide happiness and money is never going to provide security. There's a level

00:23:09.040 of it, certainly. Don't mishear me. But as much as we're looking for it in those things, we're never

00:23:14.920 going to discover it. And so I think that's where a lot of our stress comes from. It's not that we

00:23:19.940 don't have enough money. It's that we're just looking forward to do things that it was never

00:23:24.120 going to do for us. I think that getting rid of stuff is probably the easy part compared to getting

00:23:31.500 your mindset right around this. And so as you talk about money, I'm thinking about how does a person

00:23:37.160 get to the point where they start to believe that enough is enough, you know, that this position of

00:23:43.280 abundance, I do have enough. I do have what I need. I am taking care of. I am providing for my family and

00:23:47.900 the people I care about. And this pursuit of more is not going to fulfill me. How do you get to that

00:23:54.320 point from a mindset perspective? Let me take a long road to that answer, if you don't mind. I think

00:24:01.280 the short answer is when we become generous with our money, the effect of that is we realize that we

00:24:11.540 have enough money. Like I didn't start there at all. I mean, I just wanted to own less stuff. I

00:24:18.600 was cleaning out my garage on a Saturday morning. I'd spent four or five hours with my five-year-old

00:24:23.940 son was playing alone in the backyard. And I just remember looking at the pile of things in my

00:24:28.840 driveway, knowing, like I would have said that my possessions aren't making me happy, but I saw this

00:24:34.880 pile of dirty, dusty things in my driveway. And out of the corner of my eye, I see my five-year-old

00:24:40.220 son swinging alone in the backyard. And suddenly I had this realization, not only was everything I

00:24:46.060 owned not making me happy, but everything I owned was taking me away from the very thing that did

00:24:51.100 bring me happiness in life. And I was in, like from that very moment, I'm like, I got to get rid of

00:24:57.220 this stuff. I've got to get rid of this burden. I've got to get rid of this distraction. I want to

00:25:01.500 own less. And so I started finding all these benefits, as I mentioned before. At some point then,

00:25:07.860 when I was no longer spending money, always buying more and more stuff or buying whatever was on sale

00:25:16.220 at Best Buy that given week, when I wasn't doing that, I suddenly found that I had money left over

00:25:23.700 to donate to charities, causes that I believed in. And so I didn't necessarily start with a lot,

00:25:32.260 but I gave some money away and I found great joy in it, like great happiness in it, great satisfaction

00:25:40.520 in it. Almost I found more joy in giving my money away to a problem that I wanted to help solve than

00:25:49.280 I ever found in buying a new shirt or a new television for myself. And so I started giving

00:25:56.400 more and more away. And every time I gave away something, gave away some money, I always had

00:26:03.260 still enough food for dinner. And there was always still a roof over my head. And it's usually what I

00:26:10.120 tell people if they don't do any giving. I'm like, just give away $5 this week. Go find a charity that

00:26:16.900 you believe in. Donate $5 this week. At the end of the week, you will still have food on your table.

00:26:22.180 You'll still have a roof over your head. And you will realize that you didn't actually need

00:26:28.200 that $5 that you were okay without it. You already had enough money without it. And this is how I think

00:26:36.300 we begin to overcome this mindset that we have to have more and more and more is that we, we start to

00:26:45.140 give some away and we realize that there's still enough leftover to meet all of our needs. And the

00:26:52.120 answer wasn't that I needed more money because I already had enough all along.

00:26:58.380 That's a really interesting perspective. It leads me to the idea of tithing, which is something that

00:27:03.760 my wife and I pay. And yeah, I think there's some, some spiritual blessings that come with that. We can

00:27:09.400 talk about that another time, but I also think there's this, you said it perfectly, you know,

00:27:14.000 the fact that you can give to a charity or an organization or a church signals not only to the

00:27:20.120 world. And that's not important, but signals to yourself that you have enough and that you can

00:27:24.020 be grateful for what you have. I know it's given us some tremendous blessings by being able to

00:27:29.320 give some of that away to an organization that we feel is, is good. And it's, it's been a good thing

00:27:34.100 for us. Honestly, I think the greatest personal benefit of generosity is, is the realization that,

00:27:41.100 that you already had enough in the first place. I have a 12 week online course where they kind of,

00:27:46.980 where they declutter their homes and unclutter their stuff. And, uh, one of the first questions

00:27:51.820 I always get asked is, Hey, we're getting rid of our stuff. Where should we sell it? You know,

00:27:55.700 how do we sell it? What's the best way to make the most money from this? And I always say, man,

00:28:00.440 if you are minimizing your home, if you are decluttering your stuff, unless you desperately need the

00:28:08.040 money, just donate it. Cause if you're trying to sell it, it just adds burden and stress and time

00:28:16.120 and energy. And you're never really satisfied with how much money you get back from it. But when

00:28:21.540 you begin giving your things away, you find a special joy in that. And you are again, reminded

00:28:27.980 that you, you still already have enough stuff and all of that excess you didn't need. Someone else

00:28:34.960 actually did need it somewhere in your community. I think about this when we look around our house

00:28:40.560 or a garage or whatever it may be. And we think, well, let's have a garage sale. And like you said,

00:28:44.640 let's throw that disclaimer, unless you're doing it because you need to make the mortgage payment

00:28:47.740 or the car payment, or you have some bills or whatever it may be. I think that makes sense.

00:28:51.360 Obviously, if you're not in that position, I would argue, correct me if I'm wrong, that having a yard

00:28:57.600 sale or trying to sell it on eBay or wherever probably goes against the minimalist mindset,

00:29:03.680 not from a possession standpoint, but now you've got to spend the time. Now you've got to spend the

00:29:08.280 energy and you've got to go around town, putting up posters about the yard sale. And you've got to

00:29:11.720 take an entire weekend to sell this stuff instead of hanging out with your kids like you wanted to

00:29:16.360 do in the first place. Like it consumes so many other resources rather than just the possessions

00:29:21.340 themselves. Yeah. Plus I find that generosity becomes very motivating for people that the

00:29:28.000 generosity is not just the product of minimalism, but it's the very motivation and lifeblood behind

00:29:34.180 it. I was talking to a woman one time and she's like, I've done a great job going through my house.

00:29:38.780 Uh, I had a bunch of clothes in my closet and fashion's always been important to me.

00:29:43.640 And I knew it was always going to be the hardest thing to go through is the thing I left for the

00:29:47.320 very end. She said just last week, she was driving downtown and she drove by the, the battered women's

00:29:53.380 clinic, um, shelter in her town. And she said, I don't think I ever noticed it was there before,

00:29:59.900 but I drove by the shelter and it occurred to me that inside there were, I don't know,

00:30:07.120 dozens of women who, who had just left like some in the middle of the night with maybe wearing 1.00

00:30:12.920 nothing but the clothes on their back and they're carrying their, you know, their babies in their

00:30:17.140 arms and they were leaving this terrible situation. And, and here they are now seeking shelter and they

00:30:23.300 have this new life that they have to try to figure out. And she said, my mind flashed to my closet full

00:30:30.780 of beautiful clothing that I never wore. And I just said, what a shame that my clothes could really

00:30:37.720 provide such like beauty and dignity and honor and, and help these women, you know, getting off to a new 0.50

00:30:46.100 start in their life. And, uh, she said it, it changed everything for me. I went home and I couldn't

00:30:52.400 fill bags quick enough, um, just to know the, the blessing that these clothes would be for some of

00:30:58.380 these women, um, compared to what they were for me. I, I'm a big fan of finding a local charity that 1.00

00:31:04.620 you believe in and donating there because I think it has a very much a multiplying effect on the

00:31:10.940 minimizing and decluttering process. A couple of years ago, I did a podcast on creating a rite of

00:31:17.820 passage for our sons. Uh, that message was so well received and there's been such a dismissal

00:31:23.340 of leading boys into manhood by much of society that I decided to take this a step further.

00:31:29.620 That's why on September 20th through the 23rd, 2018, we have decided to host our inaugural order of

00:31:37.620 man legacy event. This is an event designed to forge a stronger bond between you and your son

00:31:43.360 and give you the tools, resources, and guidance to help usher him into manhood. So over the course

00:31:49.400 of three and a half days in the mountains of Southern Utah, you and your sons between the ages

00:31:53.540 of eight to 15 will be participating in a series of events, activities, discussions, all designed to

00:32:00.340 push each of you mentally, physically, and emotionally. And my two oldest sons are also going to be there.

00:32:06.200 So you're going to be able to interact with them and your boys are going to be able to interact

00:32:09.640 with them as well. It's going to be a great event. Uh, you're going to walk away with a greater

00:32:12.860 knowledge of how to help your son become a man, a deeper, more powerful connection with him and the

00:32:18.580 confidence that comes from knowing that you have the tools you need to turn a boy into a man to learn

00:32:25.160 more and to lock in your spot. And you better do this quickly. Cause I think we only have seven or

00:32:29.340 eight spots left visit order of man.com slash legacy. Again, that's order of man.com slash

00:32:36.220 legacy. Do it quickly. I hope to see you there. Now let's get back to the conversation with Joshua.

00:32:43.020 Let's get tactical here. So guys listening to this, they're thinking, yeah, I know I've needed to do

00:32:47.520 this for years. We're on board with this idea or this thought, where do we start? You know,

00:32:52.040 do we start in the, in the walls of our home? I mean, what does this actually look like from a

00:32:55.500 tactical perspective? Well, it starts with all your wife's stuff. Of course. Absolutely.

00:33:01.560 Don't throw away any of the stuff in the man cave or the old recliner that probably should have been

00:33:06.200 thrown away 10 years ago. None of that stuff. No, I, uh, I will only say that for, uh, for people

00:33:11.260 who happen to be married, um, or in a type of, um, relationship. Uh, no, you, uh, it starts with your

00:33:17.440 own stuff. Um, it's always easier to see everyone else's clutter and it's always easy to think that you

00:33:22.900 need to get rid of the kids stuff or what it might be. But, uh, but you can't like,

00:33:27.040 you're the one listening to the podcast. You're the one thinking about this. You've got to go

00:33:30.780 through your own stuff first. A lot of times we try to tackle the hardest spaces first.

00:33:37.220 We're like, man, my garage is just full of stuff. I know that's where I need to start. And that's where

00:33:43.800 I need to declutter. And so they try to tackle the garage and it's such a huge job that they get

00:33:49.880 frustrated and they quit halfway through or, or a quarter in. I like to look for examples where I

00:33:55.960 can tell people that I ran a marathon one time. So thanks for mentioning that.

00:34:00.740 Happy to bring it up.

00:34:01.820 Yeah. I always wanted to run a marathon. Uh, but the idea of running 26 miles always seemed pretty

00:34:06.740 outrageous to me. And I picked up a book, how to run your first marathon. And like the first step was

00:34:12.980 run half a mile and I'm like, Oh, well I can run half a mile. And then the second step was,

00:34:18.200 you know, rest and then run one mile. I'm like, Oh, you don't run 26 miles your first day out.

00:34:25.380 You run half a mile and then one mile and then one and a half and then two. And you build yourself up

00:34:30.440 to these, you know, harder and harder tasks. And so very practical. When I tell people how to get

00:34:36.720 started, I say, go find an easy place that you use that you can fully accomplish. Um, maybe your car,

00:34:45.140 for example, you can probably declutter, you can probably minimize the things in your car in a

00:34:51.420 matter of 15 minutes, CDs and sunglasses and receipts and coins and pens and like just all

00:34:58.720 sorts of stuff that doesn't need to be in your car, finish it, you know, from beginning to end.

00:35:03.560 And then the next time you'll sit in your car, you're like, this feels so much better than when

00:35:10.440 all the junk was in here. Where else can I have this feeling? And so you try your, the living room

00:35:18.220 or your bedroom or the closet, um, and always working easiest to hardest decluttering, um,

00:35:25.120 lived in areas along the way.

00:35:27.740 I imagine this becomes somewhat of a game as well. And that's probably why to some degree,

00:35:31.720 and this might be a psychology lesson, but to some degree you have the harder things later

00:35:35.600 because you've started to build the momentum. You started to build the habits and you've become

00:35:40.760 in a way addicted to eliminating things from your life, which makes those harder spaces

00:35:45.280 more manageable.

00:35:47.320 Yeah. You notice how owning less has improved your life. I mean, it was within the first couple of days

00:35:53.860 I started noticing, gosh, it's like the room can breathe. You know, it's like I'm more calm

00:35:59.980 in the spaces. Think of all the money that I'm saving by not wanting to buy things and fill things

00:36:05.140 up. I became convinced that less is better than more. And then I got to those harder areas. Um,

00:36:14.260 and it looks different for different people, right? The, the books for some people, the camping gear

00:36:20.060 for others, the tools, uh, the sports memorabilia, right? Like it, it looks different for different

00:36:26.060 people, but you become so convinced and you've seen how less is better that suddenly you get to

00:36:33.560 the shed, you get to the tool bench and you're like, okay, now how is less better here? How can

00:36:41.920 I apply these principles here as well? And, uh, I just kind of primes you, I think for those,

00:36:48.000 those more difficult areas where we're like, well, obviously I'm never going to go through

00:36:52.060 my camping gear. But once you've gone through everything else, you're like, yeah, you know what,

00:36:56.280 it might be kind of nice to be able to find things quicker. It might be kind of nice to just have my

00:37:01.140 favorite of these items as opposed to bringing all this other junk. It would take up less space

00:37:06.620 on these shelves. It'd be easier to pack up and leave when I want to go camping. It would actually

00:37:10.760 allow me to do more camping because I was spending less money on stuff. You start to see how less is

00:37:16.520 better in some of those harder areas as well. It's interesting. You bring this up because I've been

00:37:21.360 thinking to myself as we're talking here, I'm like, well, I don't, I don't really have a problem

00:37:24.720 with this. I don't mind throwing stuff away and decluttering and eliminating and keep things

00:37:29.280 orderly and clean until you mentioned books. And, uh, I'm looking at my bookshelf here behind me

00:37:35.340 and it's apparent that, yeah, I do have a problem with this. And there's probably some books that

00:37:40.600 I have never read or partially read or will never read that probably could be cleared from my

00:37:48.100 bookshelf. So I could definitely see what you're talking about here. I went from three bookshelves

00:37:52.220 down to one, uh, when I minimized my office and, uh, it felt great. Honestly, I got rid of,

00:37:58.640 I got rid of like some old, like books from college and research books. And some of those things that I,

00:38:05.860 it's just very interesting. I got rid of all those things. I remember sitting at my desk a few weeks

00:38:10.220 later and a problem kind of came across my desk and I turned my chair to go get the book that I normally

00:38:16.940 would have pulled off my shelf to find the answer to this problem. And the book wasn't there. And I

00:38:22.760 thought to myself, well, all right, I guess I got to find a new solution to this problem. The old

00:38:29.120 solution didn't work anyway. It's why the problem has resurfaced. It was like I was unburdening myself

00:38:34.240 from my past and I was saying, okay, I got to look forward. Let's find a new solution. Let's find a new

00:38:39.940 way to solve this problem. Interesting. What would you say just to shift gears here a little bit

00:38:45.200 was if any, the resistance, man. And I'm talking about mental resistance that you had

00:38:49.900 when you guys started to declutter your life, were there things that you told yourself

00:38:55.160 that made it more difficult than it should have been or had to be, or was there maybe there wasn't

00:38:59.580 any, maybe it felt so good that you're like, you know, this, this, this is the right thing to do.

00:39:04.280 I really was on board. Um, I started journaling actually the blog becoming minimalist, um,

00:39:11.120 was born out of that decision. I started that weekend just to, uh, kind of a diary of sorts

00:39:17.020 of what I was getting rid of and what I was keeping as I was reflecting on what I was getting

00:39:22.120 rid of, what I was keeping, what questions I was being forced to ask of myself, what benefits I was

00:39:27.900 discovering in my life. There was not a lot of resistance other than just the amount of stuff

00:39:35.400 that I needed to go through. Um, and just the time and effort and the garage and the basement

00:39:41.740 and the shed and the home office, some of those things that were just going to require energy to

00:39:47.540 push through. We, uh, we moved into a smaller house about three and a half years later, a move I've

00:39:54.060 loved. I mean, just more money and more time and more focus to spend on whatever, because I'm spending

00:40:00.600 less money on square footage. It's fantastic. When we downsized to a small house, I realized that

00:40:06.600 there was a bunch of stuff that I had been holding onto just because I had the space and I didn't

00:40:11.540 really need it. Uh, and so even three years later, we got rid of a bunch of more stuff when we moved

00:40:17.000 into a smaller home. And so when I think of resistance, like that's probably the first thing

00:40:21.560 that came to my mind. Just, I held onto things because I had the space and the closets to do so.

00:40:27.400 Um, but when I realized that I didn't have the closets going forward, I realized I never

00:40:32.160 needed this stuff anyway. So maybe just some incorrect assumptions about how much I needed to

00:40:38.420 actually keep. Now we talked a lot about physical possessions, but have there been other areas of

00:40:44.280 your life where this mentality rolled over? You know, one I can think of right off hand would be

00:40:48.340 getting rid of and trying to get my inbox down to zero and unsubscribing from every newsletter I

00:40:54.600 possibly can. And that's actually been pretty liberating. Are there other areas of life that

00:40:58.100 you noticed this transitioned into every, every area, every, absolutely. I define minimalism as

00:41:05.620 the intentional promotion of the things I most value by removing everything that distracts me from it.

00:41:13.480 So minimalism is ultimately about promoting those things that are most important to me by removing

00:41:20.120 all the things that actually keep me from doing more of it. For most people, physical possessions

00:41:26.960 is an easy one to see. Yeah, you're right. I got a whole bunch of stuff that I don't need,

00:41:31.580 but it applies to the way we fill our time, the way we schedule our relationships, uh, the goals we have

00:41:40.520 in life, the way we taking care of our health, the way we live our digital lives. Um, not just what we

00:41:48.000 subscribe to, but how we spend our time online, like what is most important to me? What do I want

00:41:54.580 my life to be about? Uh, and then just what's all this other unintentionality that I've allowed to

00:42:01.340 accrue that is actually keeping me from walking down that road. Yeah, that's a great description

00:42:07.740 of it. And I think that obviously that can apply to every area of life. Well, Joshua, we're bumping up

00:42:12.560 against time here. Uh, I do want to ask you a couple of questions as we wind down. Now, one I

00:42:17.620 overlooked and I apologize preparing you for is this question. What does it mean to be a man? I hate to

00:42:23.680 put you on the spot. That's a question we ask all of our guests though. Oh my goodness. I got to come

00:42:28.120 up with that in, uh, in no time, huh? What does it mean to be, uh, what does it mean to be a man?

00:42:33.380 Um, I think a man is someone who lives, uh, within his convictions, uh, lives within his morals,

00:42:43.160 lives a life that is focused on aligning his actions with his values and is not deterred by,

00:42:53.140 uh, outside voices, um, is certainly open to outside voices, um, but is not deterred from walking in

00:43:01.320 alignment, uh, with their values by opinions or influences that might keep them from it.

00:43:07.780 That's pretty good on the fly, man. How's that on the fly? I'm pretty good.

00:43:11.060 That's pretty good. I got to agree with you on that. So well done. Well done. Well,

00:43:14.560 how do we connect with you? One thing we didn't talk a whole lot about was your book,

00:43:18.040 the more of less. So obviously we want to know where to pick up that and contact you,

00:43:22.120 find out more about what you're up to and how we can incorporate this stuff into our lives.

00:43:25.840 I'm online at becoming minimalist.com. Uh, that's the website that everything's

00:43:31.300 seems to run through. Certainly there's, uh, there's several books. The most recent one is

00:43:35.820 probably the most comprehensive. Like you mentioned, the more of less finding the life

00:43:39.460 you want under everything you own can be found anywhere that books are sold. Um, certainly

00:43:43.980 online for sure. And, uh, yeah, everything seems to run through the website. So I would send people

00:43:48.780 there, um, active on social media and active doing other things, but, uh, everything seems to run

00:43:54.160 through that place. Right on. We'll, uh, we'll make sure we make the connection. So guys know where to

00:43:58.320 turn, Joshua, I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you taking some time with us. You've given me some

00:44:02.840 things to think about, and I'm somebody who felt like I had a pretty good handle on this

00:44:06.860 and I do pretty well in certain areas, but there's obviously some room for improvement. So I'm going to

00:44:11.240 be, uh, minimalizing some of my life as well. After this conversation, I appreciate you, brother.

00:44:16.160 Yeah, it's good. Thanks. Appreciate the chance.

00:44:19.060 Gentlemen, I hope that you enjoyed this conversation. I hope that you're walking away with some valuable,

00:44:23.640 practical information and ideas and how to incorporate some of the idea of becoming a

00:44:29.420 minimalist into your life. As I said earlier, it's been instrumental in helping me free up some space,

00:44:35.140 some mental space, some physical space, and it has been a great, great thing. So if you're not

00:44:40.020 already doing this or have a need or desire to do this, or can see to some degree that it might be

00:44:44.680 beneficial in your life when you look around and see all the, the junk and the stuff that I'm sure

00:44:50.220 you're bogged down with, just like I am, take the stuff to heart, implement it in your life.

00:44:54.540 You're going to see big results. It's going to help free up some space to do bigger and better

00:44:58.420 things in your life. And then make sure you connect with Joshua at becoming minimalist.com.

00:45:04.160 You can do it there or social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, wherever you're doing the

00:45:07.960 social media thing, reach out to me. Let me know what you think of the show. Let me know what you'll

00:45:11.500 be doing differently or how you'll be incorporating this information into your life. You can do that on

00:45:17.480 Instagram at Ryan Mickler, or you can do that on Facebook or Twitter, both at order of man. I hope

00:45:24.540 to see you in both places. And then as a parting note, I did want to remind you again, September 20th

00:45:31.140 through the 23rd, 2018 order of man legacy, the inaugural father and son event that we're going to

00:45:37.980 be holding in the mountains of Southern Utah. I've got a great, great three and a half day event

00:45:43.140 experience lined out for you guys. So if you are interested, again, that's order of man.com

00:45:48.420 slash legacy, order of man.com slash legacy. I hope to see you there. Like I said, we've got seven or

00:45:53.900 eight spots. So make sure you do that quickly. So with that said, I will sign out for today.

00:45:58.600 As always, I appreciate you being here. I thank you for being along and part of this journey with me.

00:46:03.200 You, whether you know it or not, helping me become a better man, a better father, a better husband,

00:46:08.200 a better business owner, a better community leader, a better man in general. And I want to make sure

00:46:12.220 that I always give credit where credit is due. And that is due in large part to what you are doing

00:46:17.540 and you holding me accountable as well. Until Friday, gentlemen, take action and become the man

00:46:22.480 you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge

00:46:28.960 of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - June 19, 2018

Becoming a Minimalist ｜ Joshua Becker

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