Order of Man - Being Reasonable in an Age of Unreason

00:00:00.000 Reason seems to be in increasingly short supply, which is unfortunate considering some of the

00:00:05.060 messes that we found ourselves in will only be solved through reasonable thought and ideas

00:00:10.480 and people. Also unfortunate is that those who are the loudest seem to be the most unreasonable

00:00:16.500 and only wish to perpetuate the problems that we have in modern society and culture.

00:00:22.280 Today, I'm joined by the one and only Dave Rubin, New York Times bestselling author of

00:00:26.280 Don't Burn This Book, Thinking for Yourself in an Age of Unreason. What I like most about Dave and

00:00:32.200 also this conversation is that he's willing to talk about the things that you're not

00:00:35.280 supposed to talk about, including the myth of the gender gap, why hate speech should be protected

00:00:41.680 speech, why not everyone is a Nazi as perpetuated by what he calls the quote unquote lefties

00:00:47.940 and ultimately how to be reasonable in a world that seems to be anything but.

00:00:53.200 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart

00:00:58.180 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:01:03.760 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:01:10.060 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said

00:01:15.120 and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:18.160 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder

00:01:22.220 of this podcast and the order of man movement. I want to welcome you here. I want to welcome

00:01:26.700 you back regardless of how long you've been listening to the podcast. This is the place

00:01:30.580 to be. If you're a man and you want to improve yourself and your capabilities and get the

00:01:34.360 knowledge and the information and the skillsets and everything that you might need to thrive

00:01:37.580 and succeed as a man, then this is your outlet. Uh, guys, before we get into it, I would just

00:01:42.380 ask a very quick favor. If you've ever got any value from what we're doing here, please

00:01:47.020 share this podcast, specifically this episode, because there's going to be some things that

00:01:51.120 are controversial in this conversation. And, uh, I know that it's going to be challenging

00:01:55.980 for a lot of people to hear what it is that we're going to be talking about, but it's good.

00:02:00.080 These are the types of conversations, whether you agree or disagree that we need to start

00:02:03.620 having. Uh, because if we don't have these conversations, I think, uh, we're going to find

00:02:08.560 ourselves in a worse spot than maybe we already have. So this is going to be an interesting

00:02:11.940 one, but, uh, regardless, if you found value in this or any other conversation, then just leave

00:02:16.580 a rating review, share it, send a text, whatever you can do to get the word out, because this is a

00:02:21.640 much needed message in society that of reclaiming and restoring masculinity of giving men everything

00:02:27.460 they need to make themselves stronger, wiser, more knowledgeable, more capable, and ultimately,

00:02:34.260 uh, able to lead themselves, their families, their businesses as well. That's what we're all about

00:02:38.740 here. So we've got Dave Rubin on the podcast today. We've had Jocko Willink, Grant Cardone,

00:02:43.460 Andy Frisilla, David Goggins, man, the lineup is phenomenal. When I think back about who we've

00:02:50.320 interviewed over the past five years, uh, I, I feel very blessed and fortunate to have

00:02:54.480 interviewed the incredible men that I have. So we're going to get into the conversation

00:02:58.840 here in just a minute. Uh, I do want to mention my friends and show sponsors origin. Uh, it's

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00:04:17.600 check it out. Origin, Maine as in the state, Maine origin, Maine.com and use the code order

00:04:23.000 or D E R at checkout. And you'll get a discount when you do. All right, guys, let me introduce

00:04:28.500 you to Dave. If you don't already know who he is. Uh, I'm sure many of you are already

00:04:33.040 familiar with him and probably have some preconceived notions, good or bad about who he is and what

00:04:37.760 he stands for. Uh, I've been following him for some time now, and I'm actually pretty fascinated

00:04:42.540 with his journey from a left leaning progressive to a free thinking classical liberal. And I didn't

00:04:49.580 really fully understand what it meant to be a classical liberal. So he actually explains that

00:04:55.400 in the podcast and very fascinating. Uh, he's the host of the Rubin report. He's spent almost

00:05:00.160 two years touring, uh, and opening for his friend and mentor, Jordan Peterson. Uh, his

00:05:05.260 background is actually in standup comedy, but he's been extremely, extremely successful and

00:05:09.740 become well-known for his podcast. And again, he's interviewed guys like Jordan Peterson, uh,

00:05:14.460 Sam Harris, Ben Shapiro, Larry King, Dan Crenshaw, Adam Carolla, just so many more. So his lineup

00:05:19.940 is amazing as well. Anyways, he's here to talk with us today about thinking freely and

00:05:25.160 openly about some of our culture's most polarizing subjects. Enjoy.

00:05:31.660 Dave, what's going on, man? Glad to connect. Looking forward to this conversation today.

00:05:35.520 It's good to be with you. I am talking a lot these days, but, uh, just had a little water,

00:05:41.240 had a little coffee before that. I'm focused, ready to roll.

00:05:44.600 Perfect. Perfect. Any idea on how many, uh, how many interviews you've done over the past

00:05:49.420 week or two? I have no idea, but it's been, it's been really, really crazy. I mean, look,

00:05:55.920 I love what I do and I'm really proud of the book. So I'm, you know, I'm psyched to be doing this.

00:05:59.820 And I actually love, it's been fun talking to some of my, my, some of my crew going on their

00:06:04.540 podcast, you know, guys that I know. And then it's fun talking to people that I don't know that

00:06:08.280 I'm meeting for the first time and chatting with all these people that there's other great

00:06:11.760 interviewers out there. There's people that, you know, look at the world in different ways and all

00:06:15.660 that kind of stuff. But my days have basically been sometimes starting at 4am going until about

00:06:21.440 8pm, pretty much nonstop talking the whole time. So it can get a little weird because, you know,

00:06:26.260 every now and again, if you do with the long form, like we're doing right now, like, wait a minute,

00:06:30.080 did I say that five minutes ago or was that five hours?

00:06:32.240 Yeah. Was that in this conversation or the last three that I had there?

00:06:35.560 Yeah. So I'll try not to repeat myself too much like Joe Biden. I'll see what I can do here.

00:06:40.740 Well, you get what you ask for, right? If you want to put yourself out in the public and you want to

00:06:44.200 have a book that's, that, that reaches a lot of people and that's profitable and makes an impact,

00:06:48.780 then, you know, this is, this is the result, which, you know, you take it.

00:06:52.500 That's it, man. And I'll tell you when I was on tour with Peterson, which obviously is one of the

00:06:55.860 things I write about in the book, right? He always said to me, Dave, if we're going to do this,

00:07:00.740 we got to give it the everything we got. And I know it sounds kind of cliche, but like,

00:07:05.140 I really saw him do that. Like every event, he never owned it in. He took every interview,

00:07:11.720 he shook every hand and, and he lived that for a year and a half. And by extension,

00:07:16.920 I ended up living it for a year and a half. So I feel like I'm like well set up right now

00:07:20.800 to, uh, to be doing it. And yeah, I mean, it's look, if, if nobody, if nobody was digging the

00:07:25.760 book, then I wouldn't be doing a lot of these, but you know, once you do something and if you're

00:07:29.860 proud of it, it's like you want it out there. Yeah, definitely. Well, I did want to congratulate

00:07:34.280 you on, on reaching the New York times bestselling list. It's, it's a book that is unfortunate

00:07:39.220 that has to be shared in a way, you know, it's kind of interesting. It's like, it's,

00:07:43.200 it's a great book. It's a great conversation. It's just too bad. We have to talk about it from

00:07:47.240 this context. Yeah. Um, yes, I agree with you. It's kind of funny. It's like, we just found out

00:07:54.240 actually two minutes ago that we're on the times bestseller list now for the second week in a row,

00:07:58.380 which is obviously, which is great. Um, but in a weird way, thanks. You know, in a weird way,

00:08:04.020 your, your question is right. Cause it's like, you know, the stuff that I'm doling out in this book,

00:08:08.820 whether you agree with me on every little political issue, I would say is almost irrelevant.

00:08:13.180 The heart of the book and the heart of what I believe classical liberal principles are,

00:08:17.640 are common sense. I want you to use your brain. I want you to think about yourself and the world

00:08:22.000 and the life that you want to live in the, the country that you want to live in and figure out

00:08:26.220 how to maximize your happiness, find your purpose. And by extension, you'll do that for your family

00:08:31.360 and your community and everything else. There's nothing controversial in here in, in a,

00:08:35.660 in a world that was sane. Now, the problem is that we live in a world that's off its kilter right now.

00:08:42.300 And then you throw in Corona virus on top of that. And we live in a world that's really

00:08:45.600 sort of out of whack right now. So that's kind of the funny part. And you know, I titled it don't

00:08:50.580 burn this book and I didn't expect them to be out there, you know, like 1941 Germany throwing it in

00:08:56.400 bonfires. Obviously I didn't expect that, or I guess nothing's that obvious these days,

00:09:00.380 but I didn't expect that. But what I did expect and what has happened is that, you know, we've got

00:09:04.920 these like Reddit trolls and some of these underbelly of the internet sites that are attacking Amazon

00:09:09.740 reviews and online retailers. And in effect, that is a modern book burning because you burn a book.

00:09:16.980 I mean, back in the day, why did the Nazis burn books? Well, they didn't want counter ideas to come

00:09:21.280 out. They didn't want ideas that were either in many cases written by Jewish authors, but in more

00:09:26.520 cases that were about freedom or about science, things that they didn't want to get out there.

00:09:31.820 And in, in the modern sense, it's like, why would you assault Amazon reviews or attack online

00:09:38.380 retailers? Uh, you would do it because you want to depress people from seeing the actual content,

00:09:44.700 reading the actual ideas. So in many ways they're proven the point of the book. It's,

00:09:48.120 it's a digital book burning or a modern book burning, but you know, it seems like it hasn't

00:09:52.360 stopped anybody from reading it. So that's good.

00:09:54.100 Well, and, and I think in a lot of ways it actually produces the opposite effect of what

00:09:58.620 they intend, which is kind of funny because in a way this is like trollery of, of master levels

00:10:04.380 here, right? It's like, don't burn this book, which is an invitation to burn the book, which

00:10:08.220 actually helps gain some publicity for the book. So well, well played.

00:10:13.480 Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say I didn't think about all the options, you know what I mean?

00:10:17.800 Like we, we, we kind of, we kind of played it out and we were like, all right, well, we'll see what

00:10:22.380 they do with it. And we do know that one person has actually burned it in anger at least. Um, you

00:10:29.000 know, a couple of people did it like to be funny. Um, but it's all good. You know, the, I, I believe in

00:10:34.380 these ideas, the, the, the things that I talk about in the book, I think are the, the very same

00:10:40.220 principles that our founders set this country up with. Um, you know, they wanted, they wanted limited

00:10:45.980 government and they wanted, uh, individual rights. We haven't always lived up to it in America, but

00:10:51.880 we really have bent the arc of justice in that direction. And if you're a legal citizen of the

00:10:57.220 United States right now, you're legal under, under the law. There's nothing stopping you from doing

00:11:02.080 whatever you want to do, whether you're black, white, gay, straight, whatever it is, nobody cares.

00:11:08.000 It doesn't mean we're all going to be equal. If it meaning that, you know, you might have some

00:11:12.200 physical gifts that I don't have, or some people are born rich. Some people are born

00:11:15.820 poor. That's all the magic of life. That's like the chance you got. But what America has done

00:11:21.260 better than any country to say, Hey, we're here. We're equal. You know, women couldn't vote at one

00:11:25.780 time. Now they can vote black people were slaves. Then they couldn't vote. Then eventually they

00:11:30.000 weren't slaves and could vote gay people couldn't get married. Whatever, whatever the issue is,

00:11:34.220 we've always moved things towards more equality. And we really live in a time right now where nobody's

00:11:40.560 rights are impeded on because of their immutable characteristics. And that's, that's a beautiful

00:11:44.780 thing. And it's, and it's what the founders intended, even if they didn't get it perfect

00:11:49.620 as men of their time. To me, it seems like a lot of people, I would say more predominant on,

00:11:55.960 on the left. And I think we're going to get into the distinction here seem to want to be remained

00:12:00.060 trapped in the past. Like, I'm not going to deny that there was more racism, uh, 50, 70, 80 years ago.

00:12:07.380 I'm not going to deny that there was some, uh, less than honorable conditions in which we've engaged

00:12:15.280 as, uh, as a country generally. But like you said, we're moving forward and maybe it's not as fast as

00:12:21.300 people would like. It's certainly not without collateral damage, but we are trying to correct

00:12:27.580 the behavior. And I think generally we're moving in the right direction and we're doing the right

00:12:32.700 things collectively. Yeah. Well, that, that's not just an idea what you're saying. I mean,

00:12:36.700 the numbers bear it out. I lay out a lot of numbers in this book and we are the least racist society,

00:12:42.500 probably in the history of the world, our entire country. What does it say on the statue of Liberty?

00:12:47.620 They're poor and you're huddled masses. We've brought in everybody from every corner of earth.

00:12:51.940 We throw them here. We don't give them anything. And then what happens in almost every case,

00:12:56.340 almost every case, they make a better life than they had when they were in the other's place,

00:13:00.720 wherever it was. Uh, you know, it doesn't matter where it was, whether it was Europe or Africa

00:13:05.140 or anywhere else or Asia, it just doesn't matter. And then that life is significantly better in the

00:13:13.600 next generation. The next generation usually has it better. This has happened for over 200 years in

00:13:18.680 the United States. So the, the, the certain set of people who keep us in this endless, we're,

00:13:24.000 we're racist, we're homophobic, we're sexist. They're just using that so that they can figure out

00:13:29.520 some sort of governmental control over you. That's it. There is, where do you, where do they

00:13:33.720 want to go? I mean, they never leave, right? They always say they're going to leave, but they never

00:13:37.280 leave. They, they never go to Sweden. They always point to Sweden as the place we should go. Sweden

00:13:41.720 is a tiny, tiny homogenous society that in the last 10 years has some immigration and some migrants.

00:13:48.360 And now we're having all sorts of problems. We have put the, the ingredients of the world into the

00:13:55.000 stew of America. That was the idea of the melting pot. Come here, bring your traditions, bring your

00:13:59.940 foods, your languages, all of these things, but fold it into America, fold it into this idea. I love

00:14:05.460 the phrase when Dennis Prager talks about that America is just an idea. It sounds sort of silly, but when

00:14:11.560 you really think about it, the founders had an idea and all that idea was, was could we free people?

00:14:18.840 Could we free people from a King? Could people live freely and, and pursue happiness? I mean, that's a

00:14:24.140 crazy statement to put in founding documents, but we've got them in ours and, and we have allowed

00:14:29.640 people to do that. And I think there's too many people that think, oh, just because the world isn't

00:14:34.640 exactly as they wish it to be, that this experiment is a failure. And this is the greatest freaking

00:14:39.640 man-made experiment in the history of the world. Yeah. I think where it works best is when we learn,

00:14:45.020 and we're talking about immigration, where individuals assimilate, right? And I think that's part of the

00:14:50.240 problem that we're seeing now is that we're pitted against each other, whether it's through our own

00:14:54.540 actions or incorporating the thoughts and tribalism ideas of other people that, that everything's

00:14:59.880 contentious as opposed to, Hey, you have a new perspective. You have a different thought. You

00:15:03.800 have a different life than I do. And maybe we could actually get together and I can learn some things

00:15:08.460 from you and you can learn some things from me. And we're both better off. We're not enemies.

00:15:12.940 We're actually common allies, shared interests. Uh, but, and I, and I think generally that's how

00:15:18.680 most Americans look at it, but it seems like there's a group of, of people up here that want

00:15:23.880 to say, no, no, no, divide. You're not supposed to be getting together and getting along.

00:15:27.840 Yeah. Well, look, there's many reasons for this. I think social media, obviously it was supposed to

00:15:33.500 make us social. And in many ways it made us anti-social and it polarized us more. And, and, and then,

00:15:39.140 you know, the sort of beauty and the danger of the internet is it allowed so many voices in,

00:15:43.860 which, you know, I'm a free speech guy. So I want as many voices in as possible,

00:15:46.640 but then so many competing interests and competing thoughts and online mobs and burner accounts and,

00:15:51.840 and trolls and all of these things have left us in a really odd spot at the moment where we're all

00:15:57.360 kind of looking around and then you throw Corona in it, but we're all kind of looking around and

00:16:00.800 going, well, what is America right now? What is freedom? What is, and by the way, this is, we,

00:16:05.840 we can talk about this at a much wider, um, through a wider lens than just America because

00:16:11.520 people all over the world are thinking, you know, what's going on with the government that's telling

00:16:16.720 me not to leave my house. Can we trust the government? Should I be more reliant on growing

00:16:21.660 food for myself or being able to defend myself or a series of other things that I actually think

00:16:25.820 are, are good things and important things to think about that maybe we were kind of lulled into

00:16:30.460 not thinking about artificially for a long time. Um, but I agree with your general premise there,

00:16:35.680 which is most people, if you meet most people, and I mean, not just most like 51%, I mean like

00:16:42.800 90%, certainly in America, they don't care what color you are and they don't care what religion

00:16:48.260 you are and they don't care what race you are. Many times we actually love meeting people. I know I

00:16:54.420 do. I love meeting people who are different than me that come from different places. I've had the

00:16:58.000 honor of traveling the country. And when I was on tour with Jordan, we went all over the place. I went to

00:17:02.420 all of these cities that I had never been to in the middle of the country, particularly I met all

00:17:06.740 of these people who lived very different lives and came from very different places than me.

00:17:11.000 And it was like, they just want to live free. They want to find some happiness. They want to be able

00:17:14.720 to provide for themselves and their family. That's what most of us want. And yes, we do have to get

00:17:20.840 away from this thing. And I do think we are getting away from it. I think the people that are the most

00:17:25.940 polarized political right now politically are the most boring. If your lens, the way you look at the

00:17:31.380 world is just through politics, man, you will be miserable. You will be endlessly miserable because

00:17:36.440 politics is about power. It's endlessly going for power. That's why generally I would say libertarians

00:17:44.520 and right-leaning people seem to be happier because their whole worldview is not wrapped up in trying to

00:17:50.260 get government power. Lefties tend to view government power as sort of the end-all be-all

00:17:55.700 of everything. And I think that that can only lead you to misery. I would liken this to Game of

00:18:00.820 Thrones. It's like in Game of Thrones, everybody, what was the Game of Thrones? Well, the game was

00:18:04.480 that we all want power and everyone's going to go try to get it however they can. Well, what happens

00:18:08.640 in Game of Thrones? Everyone's dead at the end. And the six guys who are alive, everyone they know is

00:18:12.800 dead. And that sort of is what politics can leave you with. Just an endless scorched earth thing. So you

00:18:18.980 have to have a worldview that is far wider than that narrow view that is just politics.

00:18:25.260 Why do some people get wrapped up in that? If we know that that's the side to consolidate power,

00:18:30.240 to gain power so we can have this authority, then why is it that so many people seem to get

00:18:35.260 wrapped up in it as not recognizing government overreach and power grabs, but they're genuinely

00:18:43.020 after our best interest and they know better than we do individually for our communities and for

00:18:48.940 our families. I think there's probably good people who get wrapped up in this and think that the

00:18:54.760 government genuinely has our best interest at heart. So I think there's a couple reasons for

00:18:59.560 this. I touch on this a little bit in chapter nine when I write about Find a Mentor and I talk more

00:19:03.680 about Jordan Peterson. I mean, I think what partly has happened is if you look at people on the right,

00:19:08.920 so if you're a libertarian, you're a conservative, you're an old school liberal, what does that mean you

00:19:13.720 basically believe? You basically believe in individual rights. So you want everyone to be

00:19:17.680 treated the same by the law. And then you believe in the light touch of government and say libertarians

00:19:22.020 believe in even less government than maybe classical liberals or conservatives, but that all can be

00:19:26.160 battled out. And that's what having a political party is about. That's what having a political platform

00:19:31.900 and conversation is about and all that. I think what has happened with the people that want power all the

00:19:37.320 time, and this would sort of be the modern lefties, the progressive, is I don't know what their unifying

00:19:43.500 principle is anymore other than government should do a lot of stuff. And I think the reason for that,

00:19:50.960 and this is a strange place for me to argue from, is that they have no belief outside of themselves.

00:19:57.580 People on the right generally believe in something. Now, we can call it God. The founders called it God-given

00:20:02.820 rights, meaning that there are rights that exist outside of you. There are empirical truths about

00:20:08.940 freedom that exist outside of you. And we're going to create a government to protect those truths. That

00:20:15.280 is a freaking beautiful, wickedly profound concept. On the left, they don't really believe in the

00:20:23.820 constitution or individual rights. They believe, oh, the government can do stuff. So we want it to do a

00:20:29.140 lot of stuff. And if it doesn't do as much as I want it to do, I'll make it do more. That is a very

00:20:35.180 different starting point. And I think that sort of leads to what I would say are a lot of good people.

00:20:41.780 I mean, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A lot of good people who see some

00:20:46.360 sort of perceived injustice in the world, and then they think, oh, well, now I should take the power

00:20:52.700 to either take from some and give to others or to provide whatever programs I want because I am

00:20:59.320 good, because they feel good. And that, I think, is why Shapiro's line about, Ben Shapiro's line about

00:21:05.540 facts don't care about your feelings, I think really took root. And I think that, broadly speaking,

00:21:11.280 leftists generally are miserable because they've taken personal accountability out of their lives.

00:21:17.880 That's the thing that gives you purpose more than anything else. That's the thing that gives you drive.

00:21:23.220 It's your life, man. Go do whatever the hell you want to do with it. I'll make sure and I'll fight

00:21:28.600 to make sure that you're treated equally under the law. But once you want something special or once you

00:21:34.580 want to take from somebody else because that's what you feel like, well, now we've progressed to

00:21:38.940 something else. So if you told me progressive meant we're progressing to equality, we're good. We're good to go.

00:21:44.720 Right. The second we trip over that line, now we're not good to go. And I think that that's

00:21:49.580 what's happened. We progressed to equality. We got there, but they're not ready to give up the reign.

00:21:54.600 Yeah. You know, I've thought a lot about the differences and when I'm talking about ultra

00:21:58.480 progressive, we're talking about leftists and maybe we should kind of reverse here and go back

00:22:02.300 and explain and define those terms. But, you know, when I look at it, I generally think that those

00:22:07.200 individuals tend to be more pessimistic about human nature and the way that humans perform and show up

00:22:12.940 versus your classical liberals, libertarians, conservatives tend to be more in my experience,

00:22:19.860 anecdotally anyways, is more optimistic about the human spirit and how good people can be and how

00:22:26.540 hard they work and how much responsibility they're willing to shoulder. That to me seems like the

00:22:31.740 biggest difference.

00:22:32.940 I think that is a difference. And I think that's definitely connected to what I was laying out,

00:22:37.520 having something to do with belief. And I don't even mean that necessarily in the metaphysical

00:22:43.000 or mystical version of God, as much as just believing in something outside of yourself,

00:22:50.280 just believing that the world exists beyond what your thoughts are.

00:22:54.220 Right. It does not revolve around you.

00:22:56.520 Bingo. And once you can really understand that, understand also, there's a reason that lefties hate

00:23:02.520 history. They always want to take down statues and all these things. The reason they want to do that

00:23:07.420 is they think they can create the perfect world. What I always liken this to, if you're a Marvel guy,

00:23:13.540 I mean, basically modern lefties have become Thanos. What happened in the Marvel movies,

00:23:18.240 in the Avengers movies? Thanos saw a universe with limited resources and he said, you know what?

00:23:23.760 I'm the good guy. I'm going to do what none of you will do. But what did he have to do? He had to

00:23:29.400 wipe out half the life in the universe. That's not a great thing. But remember, after he did it,

00:23:35.060 what's the first scene? After he does it, you see him sit quietly and peacefully. He feels that he

00:23:40.880 has done good. And in many ways, that is what modern leftism is. They want to wipe out racism,

00:23:47.440 wipe out misogyny, wipe out homophobia. These are lofty goals. But what do you have to do and root

00:23:54.700 to their utopia? Well, every time socialism and collectivism takes root, whether it's Nazism

00:24:00.100 or anywhere else, you got to kill a lot of people because you can't make a perfect system. You know

00:24:06.420 why? Because we're flawed. I can't build a perfect system. I'm flawed. I think people on the right

00:24:11.620 broadly understand that. So their inkling is to say, okay, we can't build a perfect system. So let's

00:24:18.300 try to make sure that the system never gets too big. On the left, the idea is, oh, the system's

00:24:24.100 horrible. Let's give it more power. And that is just the biggest flaw in their thinking, I think.

00:24:29.320 And I've been able to wake up some people to that. Because if you get into a conversation with a

00:24:34.100 lefty, they'll complain about everything. They'll tell you how awful people are. They'll tell how

00:24:38.040 awful the government is, how awful politicians are. And then all you have to say to them is, hey,

00:24:42.800 I'm with you on all that. So my solution is let's rein in their power. Your solution seems to be give

00:24:47.840 them more money and give them more power. So there are ways to deprogram them.

00:24:51.520 Yeah. And I, you're, you're obviously a well-spoken guy. You've, you've seen both sides

00:24:56.260 of this. And I think that gives you some credibility as well. It seems to me like when

00:24:59.700 you're saying this, I hear, uh, the, the ends justify the means in a way versus no, the ends

00:25:07.100 are important, but the means are just as, if not more important than the result that it produces.

00:25:13.120 Well, that's why I always say democracy and freedom, it's messy. I think what, what the

00:25:19.260 lefties sort of think is that you can create it and it'll be clean and it'll be right. And they'll,

00:25:23.840 they'll have solved all our problems. They can tie it up in a bow, send it out and we're good to go.

00:25:28.560 And then that's that. I think what happens in, in a society that truly values freedom,

00:25:34.420 that values you as the individual to make the choices for your life that you want to make,

00:25:38.740 there's going to be some messy stuff in there. So like, you know, when I've taken the position

00:25:43.180 that the baker should not have been forced to bake the cake for the gay wedding, if that was against

00:25:48.420 his, uh, religious belief, well, a lot of people get angry, angry at me about that, but then you can

00:25:54.000 give them examples of things that they'll say, Oh no, you wouldn't force them to do it. So it's like,

00:25:58.300 if there was a painter who took a commissions online and she had Holocaust survivor relatives,

00:26:04.780 would you ever force her to paint, uh, Jews in a gas chamber? Of course not. Would you force

00:26:11.280 a Muslim baker to bake a cake for a gay wedding? The lefties would freak out if you forced them to

00:26:16.240 do that. Right. So you have to, you have to put some of it back in their face and say,

00:26:20.620 at the end, I'm not giving you a perfect system. Would I prefer that the baker just go ahead and

00:26:25.900 bake the cake? Yeah, I'd prefer it. But, but what I prefer isn't dominion over that man's life.

00:26:32.040 So what you have to say is, Hey, it's messy, but go ahead and get a cake elsewhere. And if you can't

00:26:37.300 get it in your town, then you order it on Amazon. And if you can't do that, then move somewhere else

00:26:41.640 or learn how to bake that. What that does is protect freedom, but it is a, it is a little

00:26:47.560 bit sloppy. It's not the perfect bow tie answer that they can take home to mom and say, look what

00:26:52.920 I did. I got an A. I think it comes down to a little bit of an oxymoron, which is a convenient

00:27:01.020 principle maybe that, that we're only principled when it's convenient or it aligns with your

00:27:06.220 viewpoint of the world. I mean, you talk a little bit about this when it comes to hate speech. It's

00:27:10.080 like, what is hate speech? Like, yes, you know, there, there is, there's certain language and,

00:27:16.480 and rhetoric that I don't agree with that. I don't appreciate, but if I want people to be open

00:27:24.200 to at least the thought that I can share what I believe, then I got to be open to what they believe,

00:27:30.260 even if I don't like it or approve of it. Of course. Look, I I'm a free speech guy. So what

00:27:36.060 does that mean? I mean, I lay this out in the book. You can say whatever you want with the very,

00:27:41.540 very, very narrow limitations that the U S government has given. And what are those narrow

00:27:46.620 limitations? Well, you can't instigate violence against the person or a group. So you can't say,

00:27:51.320 Hey, you know, kill all those people. You can't do that or plot to kill people. Um,

00:27:56.200 with that has other criminal, uh, stuff involved. Um, and you can't yell fire in a crowded theater

00:28:02.280 with the idea of creating, uh, uh, a mob scene. You can't do that. And then beyond that, we have

00:28:08.020 extremely, uh, strict laws around libel and slander that almost never get used because they're so

00:28:14.360 strict. But beyond that, you know, when these people say, well, I'm for free speech, but Nazis aren't

00:28:18.520 allowed to speak. It's like, well, you just, well, you also call everybody a Nazi. So you're

00:28:23.740 really not for free speech. And, and I'm sure you know this, but you know, there was the famous case

00:28:28.480 of, uh, the KKK trying to march in Skokie, Illinois in 1971. They went intentionally to the place in

00:28:36.720 America that had the most Holocaust survivors and the ACLU did the right thing. It defended their

00:28:42.980 ability to speak. Now, had they been violent? Well, now we've got something else. Had they marched and

00:28:48.080 said, now kill all these people. Now you have something else, but you have to protect odious

00:28:53.340 beliefs. Otherwise you're not really protecting anything. You're, you're virtue signaling, but

00:28:57.860 you're not really protecting anything. Right. Well, I do appreciate you letting me know and

00:29:01.660 informing me that I am indeed not a Nazi, which is something that you make very clear.

00:29:06.760 People were very happy with that chapter. Yeah. Oh, I bet. I bet. I bet they're happy with every

00:29:11.480 chapter. I bet everything they, they agree with everything. There's no confrontation. You know,

00:29:16.780 I'm sure it just went over very, very well with everyone. Yeah. Well, I felt that I should write

00:29:21.400 a chapter, uh, that would tell people that they are, no, they are not a Nazi. And of course I wrote

00:29:27.080 it, you know, obviously somewhat tongue in cheek, but you know, this idea that just because someone

00:29:31.940 disagrees with you, they're a Nazi, they're a bigot, they're a bigot, right. You know, the worst of the

00:29:36.980 worst, you know, there's so many dangers there, but the real danger actually is not what you've done to

00:29:43.440 that person. Now, in many cases you've silenced that person. And, you know, I talk a lot about

00:29:47.680 that in the political closet, but when you label all of your political opponents, these horrible

00:29:53.060 things, it really is about what you're doing to yourself. And I did a video right after Trump got

00:29:59.140 elected where I kept saying to the lefties guys, and I really felt I was still a lefty at this point.

00:30:05.000 I kept saying, Hey, our guys, we got to stop calling Trump, Hitler and everyone else Nazis,

00:30:10.480 because if we don't do that, what if Trump turns out to be okay? What if he's not, you know, putting

00:30:18.300 people in camps? What if he scales back war? What if the economy is doing well, cuts regulation,

00:30:25.180 a series of good things? Well, you can't suddenly be like, Oh, you know, that Hitler guy is pretty

00:30:30.000 decent. Right. So what you do in effect is you put yourself in a corner. And I think that's why so

00:30:36.920 many leftists right now are acting so bananas. Trump really saw that he saw that their, their

00:30:42.820 visceral reaction to him was so over the top that he can get lefties to take almost any position on

00:30:50.180 any given thing. If Trump came out tomorrow and said he was for open borders, the left would be

00:30:54.600 demanding we build a wall. And, and I think that is goes to what you're saying about you have to have

00:30:59.900 principles when they're tough to have having principles when they're easy to have really doesn't

00:31:05.260 mean anything. We all have that that's easy, but you know, but the ACLU saying, wow, we are going to

00:31:11.540 defend the rights of self-proclaimed Nazis to express free speech. That takes, that takes freaking balls

00:31:20.860 and, and honor in a very, in a very weird way and an uncomfortable way. And again, it goes to why

00:31:27.000 freedom is messy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the, the boy who cried wolf too. You know, if, if,

00:31:34.340 if everybody's a racist and then actual racist comes along and you say racist, then everybody's

00:31:40.260 like, yeah, you said that about the last 10 people. So yeah, that guy's not a racist that undermines

00:31:44.920 your credibility and authority for whatever you're talking about. That is, yes, you are a hundred

00:31:48.340 percent right. And that is actually what I'm, if I was worried about one sort of growing unknown thing

00:31:53.840 in America, remove coronavirus for a second and all the stuff around that. That's what I'm worried

00:31:58.320 about. They, they, in effect have shot their load. They called everybody bigots and racists

00:32:04.020 and they got nothing left to the point that when the real bigots come, which by the way,

00:32:09.260 they're not Trump supporters and they're not Donald Trump. When the real bad guys come,

00:32:14.260 we, we won't believe it anymore. They will have cried wolf so many times that the wolf is going to

00:32:19.320 be eating all the sheep and many good people are just going to be like, no, it can't be,

00:32:23.060 can't be because everybody else that they call the Nazis. So I am worried about that. I am definitely

00:32:27.780 worried about that. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that is a very serious, uh, concern. You know,

00:32:32.560 you use the word, the term lefties. I think we ought to describe what that is because you're not

00:32:37.720 talking about, like you say, classical, uh, classic liberalism or libertarianism. You're

00:32:42.740 talking about lefties. So, so explain that for me. Yeah. So it's an important distinction to make

00:32:47.420 because I've sort of stuck the flag in the ground and I'm trying to save liberalism. I don't know that I

00:32:51.940 can save the word liberalism. Um, I think I've woken up a lot of people to understand there's a

00:32:57.060 difference between liberalism and leftism. Liberalism, as I described before, classical

00:33:01.380 liberalism, which is really an idea of the 1700s enlightenment was the idea that if you're illegal

00:33:06.380 in a country, you are born, uh, free and thus a government is supposed to protect your rights.

00:33:12.960 We've done that better than anywhere else in the United States. And then the light touch of

00:33:15.920 government, meaning we want competition to solve as much as possible. And then there's some added

00:33:21.360 bonus stuff like, you know, use logic and reason and our human minds and respect and tolerance and

00:33:27.080 that sort of stuff. How would that, how would that differ from libertarianism? Great, great question.

00:33:33.320 So I get this a lot. And in effect, so when I say that, usually a lot of people will say, well,

00:33:37.600 you're a libertarian, right? I don't mind being, I don't mind being called a libertarian. I think a lot

00:33:42.000 of these terms are starting to blend together. I would say the only real functional difference

00:33:47.280 between a classical liberal and a libertarian is that libertarian, uh, classical liberals tend

00:33:51.660 to believe in a little more government. So I actually do think the state can have some role

00:33:56.940 in education. I don't think it should have a hegemonic role in education, but a lot of libertarians

00:34:02.040 don't want the state to have any role in education. Um, and also if you were to take the sort of more

00:34:06.680 extreme side of libertarianism, they're constantly looking to get the government out of absolutely

00:34:11.120 everything. I actually really like those ideas. I think they're intellectually fun. I don't know if you

00:34:15.500 know Michael Malice, but I think he's one of like the great sort of ANCAP libertarian thinkers that

00:34:20.720 we have. So I think that stuff is all fun, but I do think it's sort of a necessary evil. I think

00:34:26.220 society needs some basic guardrails that are the government. So that's what I would say the difference

00:34:31.420 is. But if, if at the end of the day we talked all day long and your takeaway was Dave, you're a

00:34:35.880 libertarian. I don't mind that. That's fine with me. The important distinction we should make is,

00:34:41.020 all right, so how is liberalism different from leftism? Now leftism, and when I talk about leftism,

00:34:47.660 I'm talking about socialism. I'm talking about collectivism, the idea that groups should have

00:34:52.340 rights, not individuals. I'm talking about that the state should be above you. I believe you should

00:34:59.040 be above the state. Um, this is a very authoritarian set of ideas that then when you, you throw in

00:35:06.940 identity politics and, you know, grouping each other based on immutable characteristics and black

00:35:11.220 people should think this and gay people should think this, this is a really dangerous set of

00:35:15.600 ideas, which of course, who always sits at the bottom of that totem pole? It's the white Christian

00:35:19.580 man, uh, which is, which is patently absurd because guess what? Black people are allowed to have all

00:35:26.000 sorts of thoughts. White Christian men are allowed to have all sorts of thoughts. And the only way you

00:35:29.100 can ever find out is if you talk to each one of these people, the idea that-

00:35:32.740 And everybody has issues too, right? I mean, and I'm not, some are worse than others. Some are

00:35:37.960 different. You know, we, we all have things that we're dealing with or backgrounds that we've come

00:35:42.420 from or certain characteristics or viewpoints that maybe hinder our, our ability to succeed. Like

00:35:47.960 we all have baggage. Like it isn't exclusive to one group of people.

00:35:52.100 No, of course. And, and the idea, I mean, collectivism on its face is racism and bigotry. So I could find a guy

00:35:59.900 that probably looks a lot like you and sit him next to you. The idea that he would think the same

00:36:05.180 things as you, because he's white, he has a beard, he's wearing a hat, you know, blah, blah, blah.

00:36:10.200 That would be bigotry because, because bigotry is based in prejudice. And of course, prejudice is

00:36:14.480 to prejudge. So if I just looked at 10 white guys who all kind of look the same, same age and everything

00:36:19.540 else. And I was like, well, they're this, well, that is prejudging. And by the way, that goes for every

00:36:25.860 group. You're not going to believe this, but black people think all sorts of different things.

00:36:29.340 Gay people think all sorts of different things. It's crazy. Women, women even think all sorts of

00:36:34.860 different things. It's just bananas, right? So socialism and collectivism and progressivism has

00:36:41.900 morphed into this very weird authoritarian thing. And the reason it got conflated with liberalism

00:36:48.360 is, is a really clever trick that they did. They saw the soft underbelly of liberalism. Liberals are

00:36:55.040 open-minded. Liberals are tolerant. You may know the famous paradox of tolerance by Karl Popper,

00:37:02.000 that if you're so tolerant that you're tolerant of intolerance, well, the intolerant people are

00:37:05.680 going to come in and take over. And in many ways, that is what has happened to liberals. That's why

00:37:10.520 there are very few real liberals anymore. We have progressives and then we have basically everybody

00:37:17.840 else, because I would say classical liberals, libertarians, conservatives, we're all sort of on the

00:37:21.520 same team at this point. We can argue about the specifics, but we all sort of are getting it

00:37:26.360 together and we're getting along. And it's the progressives versus all of us, because I don't

00:37:31.120 know if you're a star Wars guy, but they basically executed order 66 on the liberals. They, they went in

00:37:37.020 to take out the liberals and they did it pretty well because they got in because liberals were like,

00:37:42.080 yeah, we're nice and tolerant. So we're going to listen to you. And next thing you know,

00:37:46.460 if you say that men and women have different biological, uh, attributes, you're a Nazi too.

00:37:52.420 Right. So that's how they, that's how they took out the good liberal.

00:37:55.520 That's interesting. So do you feel like the trend of the country is moving more towards leftism,

00:38:02.100 progress, extreme progressivism, or do you feel like this is something that we're seeing in a pocket

00:38:07.120 and we're going to be able to counter that sooner rather than later?

00:38:11.060 It's a great question. Nobody likes being in the prediction game. I believe that the future,

00:38:15.440 I believe that the future of American politics, and you, and you have to just mention that

00:38:20.440 coronavirus has everything completely out of control right now. Everything is, the dice are

00:38:26.040 up. Like we're in the middle of the dice, right? They're on the way down. We don't even know where

00:38:29.720 the board is anymore. Right. Right. So, so putting aside Corona, although I'm happy to talk about that

00:38:35.380 related to all this as well. Um, I think that the future of American politics, but not just American

00:38:41.280 politics. I think that the future of Western politics of, of free loving nations is center

00:38:46.740 right. I don't think it's leftist by the way, the labor party, which is in effect, what our

00:38:51.800 democratic party has just gotten demolished in the UK election. Right. The Australians had an election,

00:38:57.780 the right one there. Most of the Eastern European nations are all moving right. Uh, Israel has had

00:39:03.360 like, you know, four elections in the last five years and it's all right leaning. They've demolished

00:39:08.580 their lefty party. So I sense that's, what's coming to America too. I think that basically

00:39:14.780 is a good thing. If the center of America is center, right. Meaning it mostly is about individual

00:39:21.300 rights. We're, we're going to guard our extremes. So, you know, we're going to be respectful of

00:39:25.980 religious people, but we are going to have a separation of church and state. We're going

00:39:29.160 to battle about what all the specific issues are and the rest of it. That's a pretty healthy

00:39:34.180 place. In my opinion, for a country of 350 million people, the danger would be if we went

00:39:39.180 the other way and we, and we became this leftist country, because then it's like, all right,

00:39:42.640 well, we're just going to take from whoever we're going to demonize everybody. We're going

00:39:46.540 to group everybody. And, uh, it's a, it's a toxic stew.

00:39:51.380 Man, let me hit the, uh, the pause button real quick on Dave and I's conversation. I want

00:39:55.260 to introduce you to the iron council. Uh, I've been amazed over the past, I would say two

00:39:59.720 to three weeks with the growth that we've been experiencing over the past, uh, well, that

00:40:03.500 timeframe, two to three weeks. And I believe it's because men are beginning to see the

00:40:08.020 value in banding with other men who have their back and want them to succeed. It's that resource

00:40:14.720 is invaluable, whether it's in the iron council or anywhere else. But if you were to strip everything

00:40:19.120 away from what the iron council is, that's what it's all about. It's a band of brothers

00:40:23.140 who will support you, encourage you, hold you accountable. And if you're like most men,

00:40:28.260 that just isn't something that you have in your life. And even if you do, what I've seen

00:40:32.620 is that most of the conversations that men are having stay on the surface and never really

00:40:36.340 get to the heart of, of what really matters. And all that you're trying to accomplish as

00:40:40.400 a, as a family man, a business owner and a leader in your community. So if you're ready

00:40:45.140 to forge a powerful bond with other like-minded men who are successful and ultimately chart the

00:40:51.100 path that will lead you to where you want to go, then I invite you to join us in the iron

00:40:56.040 council at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, it's order of man.com slash iron council.

00:41:01.980 You can do that after we finish up the show with Dave. Well, and it seems like once you start to go

00:41:07.960 that way and you allow the government to consolidate some of that power, it becomes increasingly easy for

00:41:14.920 the government to do right. It's it, the longer that it goes on, the harder it is to control,

00:41:20.040 to stop, to maintain, to reverse. So that's very much a good sort of metaphor or example of what

00:41:26.660 we're dealing with right now with Corona virus. We did, we did the guarantee, right? They told us,

00:41:32.040 Hey guys, lock it down. We're going to lock it down two weeks, four weeks, six weeks. We're now

00:41:36.480 eight weeks in I'm here in California. It sounds like they just tacked on another three months.

00:41:41.200 And in all of these States, well, the blue States, I should say, because the red States like Texas and

00:41:46.380 Florida are opening up. Now that doesn't mean that everything that they're going to do

00:41:49.740 is going to be perfect. Maybe they will see little spikes, but they're trying to take some

00:41:54.340 chances for us to live freely. The idea that we're going to eradicate this thing or that no

00:42:00.220 one will die or that no one will be sick or any of this stuff, man, that is, that is a crazy

00:42:06.940 proposition. That is not what mature, honest people would be saying to each other. But when you hear

00:42:12.360 some of these governors say, well, if one person dies, it's too many. That's crazy. People die.

00:42:19.320 People get hit by cars. You could walk outside of your house and you get struck by lightning.

00:42:26.180 Anything can happen. The idea that we can mitigate risk completely away, uh, is, is not possible.

00:42:33.060 And you know, there's the, the famous saying, those who would give up liberty for security deserve

00:42:38.620 neither. Do you think it's, uh, well, I should say to what degree do you think it's ignorance versus

00:42:46.100 intellectual dishonesty? It's, it's very hard to say because there's so many layers of this. It's

00:42:53.000 like, uh, do I think that most of the young students in college who've been indoctrinated

00:42:59.100 with this stuff by their professors and by media and everything, I don't think they're ignorant.

00:43:03.780 I think they've been confused and they've been handed easy answers. And then you just swallow easy

00:43:09.500 answers. Um, that being said, I do think that there are leaders of these movements. There are many,

00:43:16.100 many people in, uh, mainstream progressive politics and in mainstream, uh, media, you know,

00:43:22.680 MSNBC, CNN and the rest of it that are forcing really bad ideas down people's throats because

00:43:28.320 they want to control people. I have no interest in controlling people. Whatever you do in your life,

00:43:34.720 as long as you don't come on my property and do it and try to take my rights away, you can do

00:43:39.780 whatever you want. And I really mean that like, that's the beauty of America. That is a beautiful

00:43:45.740 freaking thing. And they don't view the world that way. They, they view the American, uh, experiment as,

00:43:52.400 as misguided or, or evil or something like that. I mean, if you were to watch any of the,

00:43:58.720 the democratic debates, none of these people are proud to be Americans.

00:44:02.280 No, Bernie. I mean, imagine, imagine if they, they never said words like freedom and Liberty.

00:44:07.540 They said constitution once. I remember the one time the constitution was said it was when Kamala

00:44:13.000 Harris said she was going to do an executive action to take away guns. And Biden looks at her

00:44:18.100 and says, well, it has to be constitutional because he's sort of, he's like the last vestige of an old

00:44:23.300 school Democrat. Right. And what did Kamala Harris do? She looks at him and she laughed in his face.

00:44:28.120 And she said, Joe, can't we just say, yes, we can. And what I realized at that moment was man, Joe

00:44:35.460 putting aside what your cognitive stuff is and everything else you're in the wrong room, man.

00:44:41.920 Cause the future of this party doesn't care. They, when you say constitution, they think of that as

00:44:48.100 toilet paper. They don't believe it is good. They don't believe this place is good. I believe this

00:44:53.880 place is good. I believe that is a sacred document. I've got a giant American flag in my

00:44:58.100 control room right there. And we've got the constitution and the bill of rights. I'm not

00:45:01.100 just doing it for decorations. You know, it's like, these are the things that freed us, man.

00:45:05.700 And we got a pretty great in America. Yeah. I think if you believe at its fundamental level

00:45:10.580 that it's good, then it's worth salvaging. It's worth fighting for it's worth taking some risk and

00:45:15.920 some chance. And if you believe at its fundamental level that it's, that's evil and it's wrong and

00:45:19.820 immoral, then of course the natural response would be to wipe it off the face of the earth.

00:45:24.460 And that is it. They're not proud. Imagine the Bernie crew, the AOC crew, imagine them

00:45:31.400 going up and having to defend America. Like imagine if America was put on trial, right? Like

00:45:37.460 some futuristic dystopian world and the lawyers for America are Bernie Sanders and AOC. We're getting

00:45:44.420 the electric chair, my friend. We're getting it pretty damn quick. But now how about we do it the

00:45:48.840 other way? Now we'll take Donald Trump and give me Rand Paul, libertarian. So you have Trump. He's

00:45:55.660 more of a, you know, Trump's hard to totally pin down on what his political ethos is. It's sort of

00:46:00.220 Trumpism, but let's take Trump and Rand Paul, who's the closest thing we have to a true libertarian in

00:46:06.020 the Senate. Those guys could seriously defend America in the court of law. Uh, and the other guys

00:46:12.540 would, would throw America under the bus in a second. You know, I know you talk about so many

00:46:17.580 different things here. You talk about gender and you talk about hate speech and you talk about,

00:46:22.740 uh, trans rights. I mean, you talk about everything that, you know, you're not supposed to talk about,

00:46:27.240 which is actually why I like the book because it's provocative and it gets you thinking about

00:46:30.740 things that maybe you haven't considered before. You know, what, what are some of the paths forward?

00:46:35.240 You know, is, is it trying to find some common ground? Is it trying to, for lack of a better

00:46:41.220 term, convert people to a different perspective? Like what is the path forward? So I think it sort

00:46:47.860 of depends what your starting point is, right? So if, when I wrote this book, the idea was I want,

00:46:53.160 you know, there's a reason that it's this thick. It's about 240 pages. It's not huge. I've got 12 rules

00:46:59.120 for life there. It's about 400 pages. It's dense. You got to, you can, you know, when I read 12 rules,

00:47:04.780 and I, and I love Jordan and I've talked to him a million times, it's like, I was able to read a

00:47:08.440 couple of pages and then I'd usually put it down and I'd be like, I'll come back.

00:47:11.200 You got to ponder and really reflect on it.

00:47:13.680 Yeah. And what I, what I tried to do with this was, can we, can I give people a book that they

00:47:20.960 can read in a couple of days that gives them some of the tools to think for themselves? And then

00:47:26.320 hopefully, you know, your neighbor doesn't have to buy it, hand them the book or your friend or your

00:47:30.780 brother, your cousin, whatever it is, hand them the book and go, you know, there's some stuff in here.

00:47:34.540 And I guarantee you're going to agree with some of it and disagree with some of it,

00:47:37.540 but there's some interesting things in here. And so when you talk about the path forward,

00:47:42.300 it's like, well, what I would like to do is I want to help convert a lot of the confused lefties

00:47:47.440 into people who love Liberty. That would be a great thing. But what I also want to do is I want to take

00:47:53.060 what I call the politically closeted, which I think is the largest political group that we've got right

00:47:57.920 now. The most underserved political group, the amount, the group of people who are good,

00:48:02.340 decent Americans who I'm sure I have some differences with, but that are afraid to say

00:48:08.300 what they think. And I want to show them that if they don't say what they think, we will lose this

00:48:13.480 thing because there will be people out there who will gladly take away all their freedoms.

00:48:17.920 So you better freaking stand up for it right now. You know, I tell the story in the book,

00:48:22.180 but both of my grandfathers fought in World War II. One of them was a pilot and one of them

00:48:26.920 was a mechanic. It's like, I haven't had to fight an award that we, we are here on the backs of great

00:48:32.720 men, not because they were great in and of itself, but because they were people of their time who stood

00:48:37.520 up and did what had to be done to fight for freedom. That's what I want people to understand

00:48:41.920 in 2020. If you got this in your pocket, you're not oppressed. That's it. You're not oppressed.

00:48:47.580 And by the way, you got privilege. It's called American privilege. That's what you got.

00:48:53.040 Well, you know, you talk about privilege. What's interesting is I can't remember who I was talking

00:48:56.620 to just the other day about this. And I said, well, let's just assume for a minute that there is

00:49:02.300 white, you know, male, straight, whatever privilege you want to say that I would fall into, right?

00:49:09.620 Yeah. But there isn't, by the way, but I'll go on your hypothetical journey.

00:49:13.060 Assume there is. What would you have me do? Like, okay. So therefore what, what do you want

00:49:21.280 me to do? Like, why wouldn't I take advantage of opportunities? Whether I was born with a little

00:49:25.700 bit more intellect than somebody, or my mom loved me more than somebody else who didn't grow up in a

00:49:30.260 household with, with a loving parent. Like, what do you want me to do about that? It seems to me that

00:49:35.540 you'd want people to take advantage of the opportunities that are presented and do good with

00:49:40.480 those things. Well, if they were to answer you, honestly, if they were a lefty, they'd say bow

00:49:44.440 forever. That's what they would say. Bow forever. You had your time, but none of us are guilty for

00:49:51.640 our parents' sins or our ancestors' sins. Now, nobody in my family owns slaves, but even if someone did,

00:49:57.460 I mean, even if someone did, I wouldn't be guilty because of that. You happen to be a white

00:50:03.100 heterosexual male. Why should you be, why should anyone hold that against you? Should you,

00:50:08.420 should it be harder for you to get a job because of that? And, and I think what the left does is

00:50:14.500 they go, well, we want to help these people. But every time you say, I want to help these people,

00:50:19.440 you actually want to punish someone else, but they don't want to think about that. They only want to

00:50:23.360 think that help means help and that's it. But I have no desire. No one's born with original sin.

00:50:29.240 If a, if a white Christian child is born today, I want him to have the exact same opportunity

00:50:34.780 as the black Muslim child and vice versa, obviously. And the only way that can happen

00:50:41.140 is if you give people equal rights, not if you try to rejigger society in some magical way,

00:50:46.960 because you'll always be punishing undeserved people.

00:50:50.260 Yeah. The, the variable in the equation has to change. So if, if you're looking at a mathematical

00:50:55.580 equation, if you want to come up with an equal answer, then the variables that go into that equation,

00:51:01.540 they have to change, right? So it means that this need, this value needs to go down. This value

00:51:06.480 needs to go up. And that's what produces the, the, the same number at the end. It's the same thing

00:51:11.080 here is like a variable has to change. Either the inputs change, which is what we're dealing with,

00:51:16.100 right? You have a different experience, different culture, different beliefs, different thought

00:51:20.980 processes and, and different experiences than I do, which means that naturally you and I will have a

00:51:26.820 different outcome of our life. Sure. Well, we sure we will. And that's beautiful. That's a good

00:51:32.440 thing. It's great. It's great. It's great. What a great country we live in. You know, I tell the story

00:51:36.640 briefly in the book about my two best friends growing up. Uh, one was Greek, Ari. One was Italian,

00:51:43.040 John. I'm Jewish. We used to, we lived all within three blocks of each other. They'd come to my house

00:51:48.320 for Hanukkah. I did Greek Easter at Ari's house. Uh, I did, um, you know, Christmas at John's house.

00:51:55.120 We bounced around and what we realized over the years, there's still my two best friends to this

00:51:59.560 day now, 40 years later. And what we've realized is, yeah, the foods were different in our houses,

00:52:04.720 right? Like there was a lot of pasta in one. Uh, but, but the traditions, that stuff, it's all

00:52:11.800 actually the same in that we all, our families cared about family. Our families all cared about

00:52:16.740 education, hard work, all of these things. That's such a beautiful thing about America,

00:52:21.240 like an absolutely beautiful thing. Um, but the idea that that should be our defining thing,

00:52:27.780 that your ethnicity should be your defining thing or your religion or your gender or anything else,

00:52:32.600 it's anti-American. And that's why it's so strange that the people who purport to be the anti-racists

00:52:39.200 are the ones who are constantly injecting race in America. Right. MLK Jr. What did he want? He didn't

00:52:45.240 want his children to be judged by the color of their skin. Well, who's judging by the color of the skin

00:52:50.260 these days? Is it, is it the conservatives? Not that I see. Is it the libertarians? Definitely

00:52:54.720 not. But who is, it's the progressives everywhere constantly. And, and this is an incredible flip

00:53:01.640 of history. You know, it's interesting. It reminds me of this, this, uh, press conference that Trump

00:53:06.440 had just a couple of days ago. And, and I assume, I, I assume she's Chinese based on her response,

00:53:11.280 but she asked a question of Trump and he said, ask China. And she said, well, why would you ask me

00:53:17.080 that? She was alluding to the fact that he was being racist. He's like, I'm not telling you,

00:53:21.940 I'm just telling everybody. It seems to me that even her saying that would be more racist than

00:53:26.620 what Trump's actual response was. Right. So then of course the media runs with it,

00:53:30.880 that Trump's, that Trump's racist, as if him saying, ask China, he, he says that to anybody,

00:53:35.920 the idea that Trump is racist. That's not a new comment of his.

00:53:38.640 He insults, he insults Brian Stelter and Jim Acosta who are white, you know, heterosexual,

00:53:43.940 I believe men, he insults them all day long. He insults everybody. He's an equal opportunity

00:53:48.860 offender. Like we used to, remember we used to have comedians that would offend everybody. Don

00:53:52.680 Rickles, you know, our great sort of permission to do it. What, what Don Rickles did. And if any

00:53:58.960 of your audience doesn't know Don Rickles, he was one of the great, great standups we've ever had in

00:54:03.700 America. And what he did, he'd go on stage and he'd talk about the Asians and the Jews and the blacks

00:54:10.140 and the Greeks and the gays. And the, and what that did was it allowed everyone in the room to

00:54:15.060 realize I'm part of this thing. I'm part of this great American tapestry. Nobody was left out. He

00:54:21.220 made fun of absolutely everybody. He would have been canceled. Obviously today, the mob would have,

00:54:26.660 the mob would have destroyed him. You know, he, he passed away about two years ago, but he was

00:54:31.400 a wickedly brilliant comic who did exactly what you're supposed to do in America to say, okay,

00:54:36.580 we've got 10 different groups. I'm going to make fun of nine of them, but that one group,

00:54:41.940 they must be protected. Well, what you do is you otherize that group at that point. And then,

00:54:46.860 and then you, you're the one that will create this odd prejudice around them or bigotry around them or

00:54:51.900 everything else. We should be making fun of everybody. You know, hopefully you do it respectfully

00:54:57.220 or with a bit of a sense of humor. But the idea that Trump looked at her and said, China,

00:55:03.020 because he's racist, which on top of everything, you know, China is not a race. It's a nationality.

00:55:07.380 Asia is the race, but I know that that gets lost on a lot of people. Um, but it's just patently

00:55:11.900 absurd. Yeah. I wish we could go back to the days where we collectively as a society gave permission

00:55:18.480 to comedians to talk about anything and everything. I just think that that would like ease the tension

00:55:24.220 a little bit because comedians like yourself included with, with your background, say the things

00:55:29.540 that most of us don't feel comfortable with, but we're thinking them in our heads.

00:55:34.320 Well, that's the idea, right? Like an outlet. It's like a valve on a, on a pressure cooker.

00:55:38.560 It's like you be the valve for me because I'm not willing to do it. So you do it. And now we've

00:55:42.720 taken away that. So there's all sorts of pressure that we used to have outlets for

00:55:46.120 to loosely quote Oscar Wilde. If you want to tell people the truth, you better be funny or they'll

00:55:50.460 kill you. And that's what comics do. What did, what did our greatest comics do? George Carlin was

00:55:55.020 telling you something true, telling you something that he believed through humor and, and, you know,

00:56:01.240 brilliant linguistic wit. What was Richard Pryor doing? What are the great comics? What is Dave

00:56:05.660 Chappelle doing now? He's telling you something true and he's doing it while making you laugh.

00:56:10.740 That's a beautiful thing. You know, it's funny when, so I did stand up for about 12 years in

00:56:13.920 New York and then now I have other things going on, but I'll, if I have an off night when I was on

00:56:18.560 tour with Jordan or I have a, I'm in a city, if there's a club, you know, we can, I can sell out a

00:56:22.800 club easily now, which is great because I've succeeded in other ways. And I get up there and

00:56:26.820 I, I really barely have a couple of jokes, but I'm basically messing with the crowd the whole

00:56:30.420 time. And people show up in, you know, I've had black guys in MAGA hats. And then I had this one

00:56:35.840 guy who was a, he had a, he was a white guy with a shaved head. So he sort of looked like he could be

00:56:40.220 a scary neo-Nazi. And I had them come up on stage with me and hug and people are going crazy and

00:56:45.680 screaming. And the point of it is to show that we're, we're all Americans. We can all get in a room and

00:56:51.320 have two drinks. Well, we used to be able to get in a room. I don't know if we'll, yeah, not anymore

00:56:54.760 in LA. Maybe not anymore. Under 10 people, under 10 people. And you got to be, you know, 50 yards

00:56:59.880 away from each other. But, but the idea that we could all get in a room and have a collective

00:57:04.320 experience in the best sense of collectivism, not because we're all this or that, but because we're

00:57:10.380 all different and then we can figure out a way to laugh about the crap that's going on in all of our

00:57:15.460 minds. That's a freaking beautiful thing. Yeah. You know, I, I once watched a Joe Rogan perform

00:57:21.160 live and I watched him slaughter a couple of people that are around the front of the stage

00:57:26.060 and the majority of them were laughing and he was making fun of them and they took it lighthearted.

00:57:30.440 It was fun. And then he got after this group of women. I think there was three of them.

00:57:34.140 And I can't remember what the joke was. I can't remember what he was saying, but I remember

00:57:37.820 vividly how personally these women took what he was talking about and they actually left.

00:57:43.760 But it was funny. I'm like, you know, it's not meant with like ill intent. It's we're all here

00:57:50.400 having a good time. We're having fun. I know it's hard maybe to be the butt of a joke, but

00:57:54.480 I really think we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously.

00:57:58.300 Of course we shouldn't. I'll tell you, can I curse? I can curse.

00:58:01.600 Yeah, go ahead.

00:58:02.440 We're on the internet.

00:58:03.380 For sure.

00:58:04.100 So I'm doing standup about a year ago. I think I was in Oxnard, California and I'm shooting the

00:58:10.900 shit with the crowd. I do a little, so I basically do standup for an hour and then I do like a Q&A

00:58:14.420 thing and I'm doing the Q&A and this guy in the back, I can't really see him because the lights are

00:58:18.200 very bright, but he yells out that he goes, Dave, I just got divorced and it's because of you. And

00:58:23.520 I was like, well, what? And the crowd laughs and I go, well, what are you talking about? He says,

00:58:27.160 well, I started waking up to politics and I wasn't a lefty anymore. And my wife was like a crazy lefty.

00:58:32.980 And, uh, you know, then we got divorced and, uh, and I was like, I paused and I was like, well,

00:58:38.820 fuck her. And that's why the crowd went completely crazy. Of course I, all of his friends,

00:58:45.640 like, now I don't know this woman. She could be a perfectly nice woman. I don't mean it to degrade

00:58:50.100 her or anything, but it's like, there was a funny moment in there of just like, dude, I'm on your

00:58:54.180 side. You know, we're, we're all this room. We're all there together. And by the way, when I, when I

00:58:59.240 toured with Jordan, I was basically doing standup. So I would do about 15 minutes, get the crowd laugh.

00:59:04.680 And then they'd listen to an hour and a half of Jordan. And you know, Jordan, this is fire and

00:59:08.240 brimstone stuff. No doubt. This is serious stuff. Um, I think over time, uh, you know, he would,

00:59:14.400 he would tell me this, he would incorporate a little more humor because he could see how,

00:59:18.660 you know, I was able to get the crowd to sort of have a certain emotion and he would like to play

00:59:22.940 with that a little bit. Um, but you need that, you need that because he would say to me, cause

00:59:27.880 there were a few shows that I missed on the tour if I had other engagement and he would always email

00:59:31.760 me after the show and say, Dave, I enjoy the shows much more when you're there. And the reason for

00:59:36.220 that was if you do a fire and brimstone speech about fixing your life and there's no relief at the

00:59:43.220 end, when those people walk out of that theater, it's like, yeah, you were handed something powerful

00:59:48.080 and deep, but you also need to breathe. It's what you said. You need to let that open the gasket,

00:59:53.480 let off some of that steam. So I was always very aware of that. I'm going to start this thing with

00:59:57.460 humor. Jordan's going to plow through with truth. And, and, you know, I would always tell him if we

01:00:03.260 had a great show, I'd say, Jordan, that felt thick. And what I always meant was it was like,

01:00:07.140 it was like walking through like molasses because it's tough. You got to walk them through the swamp

01:00:12.680 on a, on a, you know, I've been to other public speakers where it's like, they're not really

01:00:16.660 saying anything. So it's just like walking through paper. Right. But then I would always be sure at

01:00:20.560 the end when we do the Q and a, I want those people to end with a laugh. So I tried to make

01:00:24.280 sure every show ended with a laugh. And then it's like, they can walk out there and they go, well,

01:00:27.760 you know, I learned something, but I did laugh too. And that's, that's pretty great.

01:00:31.260 Yeah. It's hard. You know, it's really hard when you have a time like this, where I do realize there's a lot

01:00:35.280 of people who are having difficult circumstances, people are out of work and they're concerned and

01:00:39.820 they're fearful. But I do believe that the, that part of the remedy anyways, is let's lighten up,

01:00:46.080 let's help each other out. Let's have some fun to the degree that we can let's support each other and,

01:00:50.200 and, and, and not be so upset about things that frankly, we, we just shouldn't be upset about.

01:00:55.900 Look, and even if we should be upset about them, that, that still isn't a reason to be perpetually

01:01:00.300 upset about them. Right. Like you could be going through a seriously, you could be going through a

01:01:04.060 seriously tough time right now. I have no doubt that people are, I I've tried to help some people

01:01:08.340 in my personal life, you know, I'm doing pretty okay here. So I don't have anything to complain

01:01:12.160 about. Um, you know, beyond that, I would like us to be freer, but I mean, in my immediate life,

01:01:17.360 but you know, the idea that we shouldn't joke in the midst of this, it's like, that's, that's not

01:01:23.440 what humans do. We need it, man. We need it. Yeah. You know, I remember, um, my wife's grandfather's

01:01:31.680 funeral and it was really like the first funeral that I, that I like really like vividly remember

01:01:38.220 and like was cognizant and aware of. And I was really taken back at first because they were

01:01:42.800 telling jokes about grandpa. And I was like, Whoa, wait, like just cool. Like I were, we're making

01:01:48.540 fun of the deceased here, but it just, it wasn't, it was honoring, right. It was like remembering good

01:01:55.600 times and having fun with it. And it was lighthearted and it was honoring more than it was meant to be some

01:02:01.300 sort of dishonor to him and, and, and what he meant in their lives. It's a beautiful thing.

01:02:06.000 Beautiful thing. My, my concern, I, if I have a concern about this book and for you, my concern

01:02:11.160 is that the only people will read this is the people who maybe don't actually necessarily need

01:02:16.940 to read it. You know what I'm saying? Well, look, obviously most of the people who read the book

01:02:23.480 are going to be right-leaning, but those right-leaning people, a lot of them are in that political

01:02:28.800 closet. So if I'm able to give them enough of, you know, juice them up enough to start speaking

01:02:34.600 their minds, then I've done something right. As for the, as for the lefties that should read the

01:02:39.100 book, that's a bigger lift, right? Because, you know, they're just going to say all those terrible

01:02:43.120 things about me and read, read the, you know, swarmed reviews and whatever. That's a tougher crowd

01:02:49.040 to get into, but I'm working on it. But in terms of getting people on the right to be proud of who they

01:02:54.120 are and stand up for what they believe in, I think that's where I can do the most good work at the

01:02:57.740 moment. Yeah. I think there is a, uh, the, the, it's the vocal minority, right? It really, to me

01:03:03.560 is the minority who's squawking, who's making the loudest noise. And if the majority of us would

01:03:07.940 step up and it's hard because, you know, you hear things that I believe this, you know, the majority

01:03:12.060 of us are, have our heads down, we're working, we're leading our families, we're engaged in our

01:03:16.020 communities. And so it's like, I don't want anything to do with that. But yeah, it's about time we start

01:03:20.600 to step into this realm and open our mouths and become the vocal majority.

01:03:24.640 Or don't and see what happens. Guess what? It will not end well, right? I mean, I just did a

01:03:30.320 PragerU video two or three weeks ago called the bravery deficit. And one of the things I talk about

01:03:34.780 is I think a lot of good people think they can just, you know, duck their head, lower the cap.

01:03:40.260 I'll, I'll make it through. I'll make it through. They'll take out everybody else. I'll make it

01:03:43.500 through. No, no, that's not how it works. Frog in a pot. We all know the metaphor does not end well

01:03:48.760 for the frog. Yeah. Well, Dave, I appreciate you joining us. Uh, I really enjoyed the book. I read

01:03:54.460 a little bit of it and this was kind of last notice getting together. So I listened to a lot

01:03:58.220 of it, which I actually enjoyed hearing you, uh, read, read the words, which was really good as

01:04:02.520 well. Yeah. So I want to ask you a couple of questions that we wind down. The first one I did

01:04:06.840 let you know, uh, what does it mean to be a man? Find purpose. That's it. Find purpose that,

01:04:14.320 you know, when people talk about that, we have a crisis of manhood or that, you know,

01:04:18.100 young men are angry or lost or all of this stuff. It's because something happened related to purpose

01:04:24.280 to, to, it doesn't, you have to find what your purpose is, something that gives you passion

01:04:29.440 so that when you wake up in the morning, you've got something to do. You know, all I started doing

01:04:34.680 was saying what I thought. And then as I started doing it more and more people started listening and

01:04:39.320 then I kept doing it more. And then suddenly I had a book deal and I had a successful show.

01:04:43.800 And now I don't have a free minute in my day. And that sort of thing is incredible because I wake

01:04:51.020 up every day with purpose. I'm on a mission in life. I think that is what it means to be a man.

01:04:57.160 Now, then hopefully once you do that, then the other things that you, you hopefully want, whether

01:05:03.340 that's to be married and have kids and build a family and, and own property and all of those

01:05:09.760 things, I think all of those things will come, but, but you know, this is like a, a semi Jordan

01:05:15.940 version of it, but like find that star, whatever that thing is somewhere in the world, you want

01:05:20.520 something in this life, find that thing, man, and start going to it and, and see what happens.

01:05:26.420 And if you do that, I think you'll become a better man. And the reason I say that is I am,

01:05:30.600 I am not a perfect man, but I am a way better man right now than I've ever been.

01:05:34.460 Yeah. That's awesome. That that's, it's very similar to what I believe about what we've been

01:05:40.120 doing here is, you know, one day it was just, Hey, here's a Facebook post about something. I

01:05:45.560 believe about what it means to be a dad, you know, the next day it's, here's what I think about what

01:05:49.720 it means to be a husband and, and where I've fallen short. And then, you know, five years later,

01:05:53.980 here we are having these kinds of conversations. It's a very cool thing. You never know where it's

01:05:57.080 going to take you. You put yourself out there and then, Holy cow, other people go, Whoa,

01:06:01.760 I'm thinking something like that too. And then suddenly that spreads and that spreads and that

01:06:06.320 spreads. And you have no idea what you could do to the world. You have no idea.

01:06:10.840 Well, I know you're a busy man. I'll let you get to it. I'm sure you've got a lot of other

01:06:13.520 interviews and things that got to get done. Uh, where should I send the guys to connect with

01:06:17.360 you? Obviously to pick up a copy of the book and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So they can go to

01:06:20.760 don't burn this book.com where they can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, anywhere else at

01:06:25.640 a Rubin report.com or all the other good stuff. Excellent. We'll sync it all up. I appreciate you,

01:06:31.480 Dave. You're doing great work. I don't need to tell you that, but, uh, but it has been impactful

01:06:35.780 in my life. And I'm anxious to share this with the, with the people who listen. I enjoyed it.

01:06:39.860 Make sure to tag me and we'll spread it around. Thanks brother. Gentlemen, there you go. My

01:06:45.380 conversation with the one and only Dave Rubin. I hope that you enjoyed it. Uh, it is my hope that

01:06:50.420 you're walking away with some new information and I'm not asking that you agree with everything.

01:06:56.180 Uh, I just ask that you question what you think that you challenge what you believe and ask if

01:07:02.000 there's a new way of looking at information and circumstances and topics that are some of the most

01:07:09.540 polarizing, uh, divisive conversations and subjects that we've been addressing over the past several

01:07:15.340 years, not only in this podcast, but society in general. So I'd also encourage you to pick up a copy

01:07:19.720 of don't burn this book. Very, very fascinating read, a very quick read, efficient read. I mean,

01:07:25.480 it's, it's good. It's got a great information, uh, talks about all of the things that most people are

01:07:31.060 unwilling to, or afraid of talking about, which is the kind of conversations I want to have here.

01:07:36.160 And that's the beauty and the power of the podcast is that we can talk about anything that we want.

01:07:39.920 Now I'm sure I'll get a bunch of hate mail for having Dave on the podcast. Uh, but that's part of

01:07:44.380 the deal. If you're going to have difficult conversations, then lots of people aren't going to agree.

01:07:48.820 And that's actually part of the fun and it leads to better conclusions, having these types of

01:07:53.880 conversations. So anyways, uh, pick up a copy of the book again, don't burn this book, connect with

01:07:58.320 Dave on his socials connect with me. Let me know what you thought about the show, good, bad, and

01:08:02.760 different. And let's keep the conversation going. I've got an incredible lineup of men who will

01:08:06.880 continue to join us. I've been swinging for the fences on podcast guests these days. So, uh, you're

01:08:12.640 going to see some very fascinating men come up in the conversation. And if you have suggestions

01:08:16.500 or introductions, then please feel free to reach out to me as well. Guys on a parting

01:08:20.080 note, just make sure you share the episode, share the show, leave a rating and review,

01:08:23.960 do your part. All right. I'm trying to put out great information for you, trying to make

01:08:27.580 this available, trying to lift us all up and become this go-to resource for men. Uh, your

01:08:32.020 part in the equation is to share it. That's all. That's all I ask of you share it. Take two

01:08:36.180 minutes, leave a rating review, not a whole lot to ask. And it goes a long way in promoting

01:08:39.880 what we're doing. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for the ask me anything with

01:08:44.640 Mr. Kip Sorensen. Uh, but until then go out there, take action and become the man you are

01:08:50.120 meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge

01:08:54.680 of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

01:08:59.000 of man.com.

Order of Man - May 19, 2020

Being Reasonable in an Age of Unreason ｜ DAVE RUBIN

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