Order of Man - BRADY PESOLA ｜ Low Profile, High Capability： Becoming a Grayman

00:00:00.000 It seems anymore that people are operating increasingly out of extremes without any context, nuance, or understanding.

00:00:08.900 I get it. Outrage sells. And to some degree, I know, guys, I've been guilty of it myself, but I have found that as I get older, wanting for myself to go find a piece of land and just work on my canoe or something rather than engage in what social media has diminished us to.

00:00:27.400 My guest today, Brady Pesola, would agree, and he's made life out of studying ancient philosophy combined with practical, nuanced, modern insight.

00:00:37.900 And today we talk about social independence and how to get it, the golden mean and why you should operate in it, what he calls the stoplight theory, something called metacognition, which is thinking about thinking, and also the concept of the gray man and how it can help you operate as a man.

00:00:57.900 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:01:03.660 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:08.140 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:13.200 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:17.400 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:22.380 Men, welcome to the Order of Man. My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host and the founder of the podcast, and I want to welcome you here today.

00:01:31.200 Very glad that you're tuning in. Got a great show lined up with a good friend of mine.

00:01:35.420 His name is Brady Pesola, and we've got some great, great podcasts in addition to this one coming out in January.

00:01:42.720 So make sure you subscribe, leave yourself a rating and review, leave me a rating and review.

00:01:47.320 That helps the movement, and it helps us secure other good podcast guests that we can gain some insight from and help you apply it in your life.

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00:03:18.640 All right, guys, let me introduce you to Brady.

00:03:21.460 He is a writer.

00:03:22.320 He's a speaker.

00:03:23.840 He's a modern stoic thinker.

00:03:26.980 He's all the things.

00:03:28.280 He's a renaissance man, and he's focused on personal responsibility and virtue and living a life of discipline.

00:03:34.700 What he does that I really like is that he draws from ancient philosophy, mostly stoicism,

00:03:39.680 and he challenges men to reclaim their agency over their lives, having clarity, having courage, taking action.

00:03:50.160 These are all things that you want to do, not only currently, but as we roll into 2026.

00:03:54.140 And through his work, Brady takes his timeless wisdom that he's learned, his military experience in the Marines and modern application,

00:04:04.320 and he helps men navigate uncertainty and adversity and pressure without pushing away responsibility or falling into victimhood like we see so often.

00:04:15.960 But what I like about what he puts out there, in particular, his reels on Instagram, is that he cuts through all the noise, all the abstraction, all the nonsense, and all the outrage,

00:04:27.420 and he just gives us really practical frameworks for leadership and self-mastery.

00:04:33.560 Guys, I really, really think you're going to enjoy this one.

00:04:36.620 Enjoy.

00:04:38.840 Brady, what's up, man?

00:04:39.700 So good to see you.

00:04:40.400 Glad to have you back on the podcast.

00:04:41.480 It's been a few years, but, of course, we have been connected in the meantime.

00:04:46.640 It's been a long journey since the last couple of years.

00:04:49.320 A lot of things have changed for me.

00:04:50.880 A lot of different things have gotten better, actually, believe it or not.

00:04:56.800 So, yeah, it's been a couple of years.

00:04:58.560 Always love chatting with you back and forth, just even on the sidebar.

00:05:02.340 Yeah, even when we disagree.

00:05:03.720 I think there was a time where I can't remember what we disagreed about.

00:05:06.400 It's not much, but there was something, and you texted me, and you're like,

00:05:09.300 I don't agree because of this, or I can't even remember what it was.

00:05:11.780 But, you know, I appreciate that two men can disagree and still like each other in 2025, almost 2026 now.

00:05:21.060 You know what's funny about that is, and I was talking with a buddy about this the other day,

00:05:26.940 is communication has gotten so terrible in our society these days that,

00:05:32.700 and the average interaction, and I don't know if you experienced this or not, 0.77

00:05:35.980 but the average interaction on social media is always inherently adversarial, snarky, sarcastic, or just shitty in general.

00:05:46.460 Like, I haven't seen anyone communicate neutral these days, and just as a matter of fact, this is a fact.

00:05:52.980 This is just something I'm telling you.

00:05:54.400 And oftentimes, people automatically assume malice.

00:05:58.980 They automatically assume hostility.

00:06:01.340 And so our egos try to protect ourselves, and our responses are often like that.

00:06:06.880 So oftentimes now what I'll do is I will text somebody and say,

00:06:09.740 hey, the things that I'm saying are without malice.

00:06:14.680 They're without intent.

00:06:16.680 And I'm just speaking not argumentatively, but as someone, this is my opinion.

00:06:24.600 Feel free to take it as it is.

00:06:26.060 And I think those are things that we should start doing these days in our society is just saying,

00:06:30.500 hey, because we can't help how we take things, but we can certainly clear it up.

00:06:34.820 I mean, we can't help how we take things if we give ourselves some space to think about what is said.

00:06:41.200 But more often than not, we're nationally – we're inclined to take things adversarily, especially on social media.

00:06:49.680 So I think now we kind of have to just go out of our way as people to say, hey, I'm not arguing with you.

00:06:55.300 I'm not trying to be argumentative.

00:06:56.920 This is without malice or any intent or any hostility or adversarial nature.

00:07:02.540 This is just something I want to say to you.

00:07:04.420 Does that make sense?

00:07:05.800 It does.

00:07:06.280 It's just a shame that we need to throw that disclaimer in there because it's more words than necessary.

00:07:10.760 You know, I had said something years and years ago, and I stand by this, is that not everyone who criticizes you is your enemy and not everyone who praises you is your ally.

00:07:21.500 And I wish that more of us just were – we just took information as data.

00:07:27.820 It's just data.

00:07:29.220 It's just feedback.

00:07:30.220 Maybe it tells us about something we could do better.

00:07:33.920 Maybe it tells us something about another person.

00:07:37.020 And then there's another quote that really stands out to me. 0.98

00:07:39.340 It's never a tribute to malice what could be attributed to stupidity, and I would add this based on our conversation so far, or at least neutrality. 0.91

00:07:48.160 But most people I don't think are malicious. 1.00

00:07:50.700 No, that's actually Hanlon's razor, and it's such a wonderful saying in just that it allows your mind to just kind of remind itself that – and I tell myself all the time, I'm just as stupid if not more stupid than most everyone else. 1.00

00:08:11.820 It's just as ignorant as everyone else. 0.98

00:08:13.920 And so I have to give other people grace just as I would ask them to give me grace because I am very socially awkward. 0.60

00:08:22.640 And so oftentimes I say things I'm like, oh, that didn't sound really – come to think of it, that was – yeah.

00:08:30.420 All right.

00:08:30.880 I made a post about Christmas the other day, and I said something like, if you don't let your kids believe in Santa, you're the worst kind of pretentious snob.

00:08:48.100 I said something like that, and it was very hyperbolic.

00:08:51.780 Like I was using hyperbole to communicate a point, but it landed very, very poorly, and I'm like, hmm, you know, maybe I could have done that a little differently.

00:09:03.680 But I refuse to take it down because that's one thing I don't do.

00:09:06.460 I don't bow to the mob, even if they hate me for it.

00:09:09.760 The hive mind is definitely something that is – it's a scary monster, the hive mind.

00:09:18.160 The – when they come after you, it's – yeah, it's scary.

00:09:24.380 I've been there.

00:09:25.260 I've done that, you know.

00:09:26.340 And I've – like I said, sometimes – most of us human beings, we often say things, especially on social media, because the way that people get their followings, their engagements is through provoking people through hyperbole and eliciting an emotional response.

00:09:45.220 And that's often the case now – the media used to do it all the time, and so a lot of social media influencers – I hate that term because it takes away responsibility of the average person who listens and absorbs content.

00:10:00.640 But the media was great at what's called framing bias, and that was the ability to frame things through language, through pictures, through selected clips to project an agenda that they wanted to.

00:10:17.060 And so social media has adopted the same.

00:10:19.940 Most influencers have adopted like, oh, if I frame something a certain way, I'm going to provoke the emotions of other people to get the engagements I want for ad revenue.

00:10:29.640 And that's what most people do these days is they farm your emotions.

00:10:34.300 They get you to like, click, share, comment.

00:10:38.700 It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.

00:10:40.540 It's they're earning ad revenue and revenue by the clicks and engagements the algorithm gives it to them.

00:10:46.940 But, okay, so look, I don't disagree with that, but where's the line?

00:10:50.680 Because don't we all do that, for example, in more – maybe less harmful or less malicious ways?

00:10:59.160 Don't you do that when you go in for a job interview?

00:11:01.300 Don't you go and do that when you go out on our first date?

00:11:04.080 Like aren't you marketing yourself?

00:11:06.440 And if that's the case, to what degree, then does it become a problem?

00:11:11.200 Sure.

00:11:11.560 Yeah, everyone markets itself.

00:11:12.780 I think more of what I'm talking about is that provocation of emotion, specifically for social media and algorithmic attention.

00:11:21.700 But, yeah, there's always marketing.

00:11:23.600 It's human nature to want to market yourself, to sell yourself.

00:11:27.340 Most human beings are insecure by nature and they want to be accepted.

00:11:30.940 They want to be included.

00:11:32.140 It goes all the way back to our Paleolithic and Pleistocene ancestors where when you were part of the tribe, if you didn't go along, you got exiled.

00:11:41.580 And exile meant certain death, right?

00:11:45.480 Either – if you were lucky, you got picked up by another tribe.

00:11:48.500 And we've carried that all the way forward now where if we suffer social exile, we call cancel culture, it feels like we're going to die.

00:11:57.300 You're not going to die.

00:11:58.160 You're going to be okay.

00:11:59.280 The internet has the memory of a goldfish.

00:12:01.320 It will move on.

00:12:02.760 But that being said, we want to be included.

00:12:07.840 We want to feel accepted whether it's on a macro level or micro level.

00:12:13.160 And it leads me to something that I've been writing about – been writing a book since long – since about the same time you were writing a book and you finished like a couple years ago.

00:12:23.920 And one of the chapters is social independence and that is the ability to be able to detach from the hive.

00:12:31.960 And it's not so much as trying to be antisocial.

00:12:35.420 In fact, to want to detach from the hive I believe is an expression of affection for society, for humanity.

00:12:42.660 And try not to go back into stoicism.

00:12:45.240 If we do, that's fine.

00:12:46.480 But even Marcus Aurelius said we are born for one another.

00:12:49.880 And I think that's true as creatures.

00:12:52.320 We're social creatures.

00:12:53.580 We really are.

00:12:54.300 As much as we say we hate people. 0.89

00:12:56.760 Oh, man, I hate civilization. 1.00

00:12:58.200 I hate people. 0.97

00:12:58.900 And if you really explore how you feel – and I've explored this thought myself. 0.93

00:13:03.500 I was like, I hate everyone.

00:13:04.960 Well, sure, we always feel like that.

00:13:07.680 But individually, I think most of us are pretty lovely actually.

00:13:12.720 And most everyone that I've come across on one-on-one that even I didn't like at first I sat with and talked to face-to-face, I was like, you know, I really enjoy having this conversation.

00:13:23.460 You're quite a lovely person.

00:13:24.720 And so, yeah, I think it's natural for us to market ourselves because we just – we want to feel included.

00:13:32.160 And we bring that to social media.

00:13:35.180 I also think it's important to find the right hive, to use your term.

00:13:38.760 You know, I think there's – I think there's a couple of different movements.

00:13:43.520 So there's one movement and I think it's very subconscious where a lot of people will just try to please everybody.

00:13:48.780 Nice guy syndrome, right?

00:13:50.100 I just want everybody to be – to like me.

00:13:52.340 I want everybody to feel good about our interactions.

00:13:55.020 I'm not going to have any opinions.

00:13:57.440 I'm not going to ruffle any feathers or shake the boat, so to speak.

00:14:00.800 And then you have this other side of the equation that says F everybody, zero F's mentality.

00:14:05.460 I don't care what anybody thinks of me.

00:14:06.760 And I think both are wrong.

00:14:08.440 The place that we need to be as individuals is to find the right hive and to care about what the right people think of us.

00:14:16.260 So, for example, the most base level is I actually really care about what my kids think of me because if I didn't care about that, then I couldn't be influential in their lives.

00:14:26.440 I actually care about what my ideal audience member or what the guy, the ideal man that I want to help, I actually care about how he perceives me, which is why I wear the things I wear, have the backdrop that I do, present the way that I do because I want to be influential because I think I can serve these people.

00:14:45.100 It becomes a problem when we start to try to appease everyone at the expense of ourselves.

00:14:56.460 100%.

00:14:56.820 I love that you said that.

00:14:58.400 And that's where we got to try and find the golden mean.

00:15:00.920 You know, everybody wants to say, and I've said it before, I don't care what they think about me.

00:15:06.380 I don't want to care what they think about me.

00:15:08.340 It's such a rebellious nature that's part of us.

00:15:12.280 And I think most of us want to feel like that because it gives us that power, that power to be able to not feel like we live off the opinions and validation of other people.

00:15:24.560 And as much as we all want to feel like that, to a certain extent, like you just said, we do.

00:15:30.040 And we should, of course.

00:15:31.520 I absolutely value and care about the opinion of my wife.

00:15:36.140 I value and care about the opinion of my daughter.

00:15:39.000 Are they happy?

00:15:40.180 I value the opinion of the people I work for because they sign my paychecks, right?

00:15:44.840 They provide our livelihood, right?

00:15:47.060 We value and care about the opinion of the people that we serve.

00:15:50.900 Am I doing it correctly?

00:15:52.080 Am I doing enough for you because I want to make sure that you are happy in this exchange of life that we have.

00:16:01.900 But also it's important to, you know, look at that and say, are they making you happy as well?

00:16:08.740 Are you not happy because it's you or are you not happy because it's them?

00:16:14.040 That's another aspect as well because we want to value the opinion of others.

00:16:17.940 Um, and, and like I said, like, and like you said, we should to a certain extent, but do they value our opinion as well?

00:16:25.760 Is that, uh, returned?

00:16:27.660 Not to say that has to be transactional, but I think for that case, why give yourself, uh, in a way that's not going to be value?

00:16:35.020 You're just wasting your time when there's other people that could certainly value you.

00:16:38.800 So yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:16:40.100 The tribe absolutely does matter.

00:16:45.160 Yeah.

00:16:45.640 I'm just thinking about this a little bit, cause that's an interesting point.

00:16:48.540 You had said, are they making you happy?

00:16:51.060 And I, on one hand, what immediately came to mind for me, and I think you probably would attest to this to some degree based on our conversations. 0.98

00:16:59.540 And what I know about you is it's not somebody else's job to make me happy, but that being said, well, not only not, can, can they not be a dick? 0.94

00:17:11.160 There has to be some measurement of value in your life.

00:17:15.880 You know, there, there are some that may not, for example, like, you know, your, your, your kids, for example, aren't obligated to acquiesce to every desire and make you feel good about who you are and how you're parent and everything else.

00:17:28.040 You would still do that.

00:17:29.140 That's unconditional love, but there are relationships where you have to consider, is this person able and willing to afford me what I desire?

00:17:39.260 Um, there might be a professional relationship.

00:17:42.700 Maybe it's a client advisor relationship where you're the advisor and they're the client, but if they're not paying attention to you or value what you have to say, then they're not reciprocating in the relationship.

00:17:51.360 So I can see, I can make an argument for both, both sides of it is what I'm trying to say.

00:17:57.240 And honestly, that, um, that equates to actually more of the middle ground, that golden mean it's a, it's a Aristotelian type of, of, of ideas.

00:18:07.200 Finding that, that good middle ground, um, where we, where, where you don't live in extremes, finding that balance.

00:18:15.660 Um, and yeah, to a certain extent, I think most people tend to forget that context matters, uh, context and everything.

00:18:22.540 And now we talk, it context is often lost, right?

00:18:28.640 And what you were talking about is, is situational, right?

00:18:33.140 Let's apply context as far as our relationships, our transactions and how we interact with people, whether we do care about how they feel and whether they do care about how, uh, whether they do care about how they make us feel.

00:18:47.700 Not a lot of like professional transactions require that, right?

00:18:50.960 Like a lot of professional transactions are, um, I'm working, this is my job.

00:18:56.180 I'm making money.

00:18:57.320 My job is to do the work enough that it satiates the requirement that brings in profit for that company and makes everyone else happy as far as that goes.

00:19:06.920 And happiness is such a broad term in that part.

00:19:10.240 Like obviously a boss is happy that you are doing your job, right?

00:19:13.840 And you're happy to be compensated at fair market value for it.

00:19:17.820 And you become unhappy about it when you feel like you're doing more work than is what is being compensated towards you.

00:19:24.600 So it's definitely contextual.

00:19:29.640 Do you, I would agree.

00:19:31.360 Do you ever think that there's a downside to living in the golden means, as you say, because, you know, I've interviewed very, very successful men, yourself included.

00:19:42.740 Over the past 10 years, I think close to 600 highly successful men in their own right.

00:19:47.880 And a lot of these individuals, they do not live in the golden means.

00:19:52.940 They are all in, they are obsessed.

00:19:55.500 They are balls to the wall and they do tend to leave some collateral damage in their path.

00:20:02.540 And I've been there as well.

00:20:04.840 And I also see how that is what's required in some aspects to be successful in some aspect of life.

00:20:12.740 Absolutely.

00:20:13.700 It's all about their mindset and how they go about it.

00:20:16.380 The golden mean is certainly a safe area. 0.97

00:20:18.960 And the idea of golden mean with Aristotle is more about vice versus virtue, right?

00:20:25.840 The difference between – how did he put it?

00:20:31.540 I forgot how he put it.

00:20:32.520 But it's basically avoiding extremes.

00:20:35.560 And there are extreme people out there that are hyper successful.

00:20:38.120 There's also extreme people out there that have done horrific things to humanity.

00:20:46.320 It's about how you apply it and your intent more than anything else.

00:20:50.260 What are you willing to accept on the wayside, right?

00:20:54.020 What enemies are you willing to develop and are you able to handle those enemies?

00:20:58.640 Because a lot of hyper successful people obviously have enemies.

00:21:01.780 They make enemies.

00:21:02.520 That's how they become hyper successful.

00:21:04.340 You have to step on toes.

00:21:06.140 And whether it was intentional or not, it's going to happen.

00:21:09.940 And those kind of people are able to handle that a different way than many of us, right?

00:21:15.560 I'm a type of person that I – I'm not a people pleaser, but I try and keep a good balance about things.

00:21:24.200 I try and keep a good balance with relationships because I've seen how I'm able to – especially in my work,

00:21:29.720 how I'm able to – how I'm able to utilize relationships in ways that are beneficial personally, professionally, as well as spiritually.

00:21:40.740 And so it's just one of those things like, yeah, they're – the golden mean can be hurtful if your intentions are somewhere where you want to rise above everybody else.

00:21:55.940 You have to live in that extreme area.

00:21:57.800 I don't think I know anyone off the top of my head that is hyper successful that doesn't live in that golden mean.

00:22:06.460 I guess that's a good point.

00:22:08.420 Really what I'm hearing you say is are they doing it at the expense of other people?

00:22:14.560 And the answer for the most part – and I would agree with you after thinking about this – is those individuals are not hurting other people, right?

00:22:24.580 They're not using other people as their pawns, they're not manipulating, they're not physically or mentally or emotionally abusing them in some way.

00:22:31.140 They're just living their life in the extreme the way that they see fit.

00:22:34.160 I guess what came to mind for me is a man has to ask himself, do the ends justify the means?

00:22:42.620 And in some ways, yes, there are some things that I am willing to sacrifice today in order to have what I want down the road.

00:22:52.660 And that means that the ends justify the means.

00:22:55.100 And there's some things that I'm – like abusing people, for example, that I'm just not willing to do regardless of the outcome.

00:23:03.440 So I guess you have to ask yourself, to what degree do the ends justify their means, knowing that the answer is yes, the ends do justify the means in particular circumstances for you.

00:23:16.920 You have to decide that for yourself.

00:23:19.860 I'm okay with folks being hyper-successful as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else.

00:23:26.580 But you see a lot of hyper-successful people, whether they intend to or not, do leave a bit of destruction, emotional or relationship destruction in their wake.

00:23:41.420 You look at folks that will sacrifice their marriage for their career.

00:23:46.740 And that's their – that may not be their intent, but it's their way of seeing what's more important to me.

00:23:53.440 My hyper-successful in my career, in money, in fame, in – you look at people that will sacrifice their dignity and self-respect and their relationships for fame, for money, for attention, which I think is a drug.

00:24:16.380 I think attention is one of the most destructive things that exists now in our society is that desire to be seen.

00:24:24.680 And it's a constant fight, I think, for people on social media to want those likes, clicks, shares, and comments to where they make money off of it.

00:24:34.500 And you see it.

00:24:35.220 You see people destroy their marriages.

00:24:36.960 You see people destroy their friendships.

00:24:39.020 You see people destroy so many things that helped them get where they are for that very, very specific goal that they have in mind.

00:24:50.380 That's their idea of success.

00:24:51.920 And I would venture to say success is such a broad term, and I think it's subjective.

00:24:58.100 I think most of us look at the societal idea of success as being the money, the house, the cars, all the friends, fame.

00:25:08.580 Notoriety.

00:25:09.160 Sure.

00:25:09.960 Yeah, notoriety.

00:25:11.520 And then you get some people that their idea of success is I'm happy, right?

00:25:18.880 When you said earlier, you said you included me in that list of successful people, and right off the bat, I made the mistake myself and think to myself, like, I'm not that successful.

00:25:27.880 I'm not – you couldn't measure my success in terms of fame or money.

00:25:31.400 But then I got to think to myself, well, how am I successful?

00:25:33.980 Have I achieved certain goals?

00:25:35.320 Yeah.

00:25:36.440 I live in a cabin in the woods.

00:25:38.560 I work a job I really like, I'm good at, and I have a wonderful wife and kid.

00:25:45.320 Why isn't that enough in success?

00:25:47.540 Why isn't that scene as fine as success?

00:25:50.820 And some people might look at that and go, those are small potatoes.

00:25:54.200 I'm looking for the big potatoes.

00:25:55.860 I mean, that's fine.

00:25:56.880 That's for you.

00:25:58.380 In philosophy, happiness is about contentment.

00:26:03.620 People think that happiness is the idea that you are gleeful and got this rush of serotonin all the time like you're a golden retriever 24-7, right?

00:26:13.660 But contentment is a whole different thing.

00:26:16.200 It's being satisfied and being happy, content regardless of whether you're happy or not, regardless of the situation, saying, you know what?

00:26:27.440 This sucks right now, but I'm content in the ability to handle this and move on until it's no longer a problem.

00:26:33.860 I like that because I talk with a lot of men every single day who are dealing with things from relational breakdowns to addiction to loss of a job, medical diagnosis, loss of a loved one, all sorts of things that happen to us.

00:26:52.900 And things that I've dealt with as well.

00:26:57.040 And I've always wondered what separates the man who uses those horrible life circumstances, tragic in many cases, life circumstances to crumble and wither away or maybe even take their own life.

00:27:12.200 And those who decide, hey, you know what?

00:27:16.080 I'm going to carry on.

00:27:17.740 I had a relational breakdown and it's horrible and I'm dealing with the fallout and the ramifications, but I'm going to carry on.

00:27:25.660 I lost my job, but I'm going to find a better one.

00:27:28.920 You know, I'm dealing with this addiction and I've struggled with it for decades and I'm going to overcome it.

00:27:33.660 Like what is it that separates those two individuals?

00:27:36.260 Is it nature?

00:27:36.840 Is it nurture?

00:27:37.300 Is it both?

00:27:38.080 What is it?

00:27:39.840 I would say it's a combination of many variables, nature, nurture, education.

00:27:46.120 I would say even genetic by nature.

00:27:49.760 It just depends, even cultural, what you grew up around, what you saw.

00:27:54.860 I watched my parents struggle hard and I saw my dad work his ass off in the work ethic and really do what they need to do to sacrifice and make sure that we all survived.

00:28:06.140 And so I think that's carried me forward in my life and helped me.

00:28:10.740 But I also think there's certain other nuances involved, some variables involved, whether it's genetic or cultural, growing up around people that just in a hard way, like where I grew up in Minnesota, the Iron Range, where the economy is based on the mines and off the price of steel.

00:28:32.040 And who was purchasing those mines and selling those mines off and who had work, right?

00:28:37.440 And you just make it happen.

00:28:39.240 Sometimes people don't experience adversity in their younger years.

00:28:45.640 I call it – I'll throw this at you and this is – I think this is the first time that I've ever proposed this theory publicly.

00:28:52.580 I call it the stoplight theory and the way I see it, there are red light people and there are green light people.

00:29:02.660 And the way I explain this is that there are days where you hit just red lights all day long and you're like, I hate this.

00:29:11.300 Red light, red light, red light.

00:29:12.680 You're in a rush.

00:29:13.560 You're just constantly moving and you're always – you're always feeling adversity.

00:29:18.280 Like why am I constantly hitting red lights?

00:29:20.940 This is an analogy for life, right?

00:29:24.320 And then you've got green light people.

00:29:26.800 And these green light people you look at and you're like, how is it you're just winning all the time?

00:29:31.420 And we've met these people before.

00:29:32.840 They just hit green lights their whole life.

00:29:34.540 They're good looking.

00:29:35.200 They're rich.

00:29:35.880 They got the cars.

00:29:36.740 They just got good luck.

00:29:37.880 You know, you're like, how did you manage this?

00:29:40.520 And this is barring people who like really work hard, right?

00:29:43.680 You're just – what I'm talking about is a lot of people that I've seen that just – they are constantly just like, bro, can I get some of that magic, some of that luck you got, right?

00:29:55.540 But the thing is when you hit enough red lights in your life, you develop coping mechanisms.

00:30:02.620 You develop tools that are forged in the furnace of adversity.

00:30:06.660 And so every once in a while, those green light people hit a red light and they're like, what do I do now?

00:30:15.880 They're like, I don't even know what to do because they've never experienced adversity.

00:30:19.700 Us red light people, we're there like, oh, this happens all the time, man.

00:30:24.420 It's easy.

00:30:25.100 You're going to get through it.

00:30:26.360 It's going to be just fine.

00:30:27.680 And then they do.

00:30:28.680 They go back to the green lights, right?

00:30:30.960 And us red light people, we enjoy the green lights when we get them, right?

00:30:34.520 Like how many times – like all day long you've hit a red light and all of a sudden you're like – you're rolling up and the light doesn't even turn green.

00:30:41.180 You're waiting for it to turn yellow.

00:30:42.800 You're like, yep, I know it's going to turn yellow and red.

00:30:45.740 And I was like, oh, oh, it's green.

00:30:48.380 And we enjoy that more.

00:30:50.000 But we're not afraid of hitting those red lights again.

00:30:53.040 And every once in a while we get that yellow light.

00:30:54.920 We get to make our decision, right?

00:30:56.640 We can either stop at that red light or that yellow light as we might – we've been taught we should.

00:31:04.740 Or we can gas it.

00:31:05.940 We can see what that – we can see what that consequence looks like if we gas it through that yellow light.

00:31:10.440 Who knows?

00:31:10.800 We could get T-boned or it may put us on a path to green lights for a while or nothing could happen.

00:31:16.760 Same thing with the green light people.

00:31:18.440 They might see that yellow light.

00:31:19.720 They might slow down and boom, they're hitting red lights the whole way.

00:31:22.280 But I think it's us red light people that experience adversity so much that offer so much more to the world that when green light people experience red light, we're there for them.

00:31:34.400 And we say, it's going to be all right.

00:31:36.760 I deal with this quite often.

00:31:38.580 You're going to be cool.

00:31:39.380 It's okay.

00:31:42.500 Man, I'm going to step away from the conversation very briefly.

00:31:45.420 I want to talk about self-awareness.

00:31:47.000 I talk about this in the podcast and you're going to hear that if you haven't heard it already.

00:31:50.600 But self-awareness isn't just self-reflection for its own sake.

00:31:57.240 It's not just an internal exercise.

00:31:59.380 It's about operational control, meaning that you can use it operationally as a father, a husband, business owner, community leader.

00:32:06.960 And inside the Iron Council, our exclusive brotherhood, that starts with what I call trigger speed.

00:32:12.580 It's how quickly you recognize when your emotion or your ego takes over.

00:32:16.840 And then it's followed by pinpoint accuracy, the ability to identify the real problems instead of blaming other people or circumstances.

00:32:25.120 And without that speed and accuracy, every response that you have is, it's either late or maybe even too soon, or it's misguided and misdirected.

00:32:35.800 And it creates a bunch of problems in relationships, businesses, careers, the way you feel about yourself.

00:32:42.020 But awareness really means nothing unless you're able to course correct.

00:32:49.820 The ability to take critique, even if it's your own, determines whether that feedback is going to sharpen you or it's going to break you.

00:32:59.880 And then you can get into aligning your behavior with your values and what you think.

00:33:04.840 Now, some of these seem like abstract theories, but this is what we talk about inside the Iron Council.

00:33:10.260 And we're going to be open through the middle of January.

00:33:13.680 But at the end of the day, it's about taking control of your life.

00:33:17.460 It's about recognizing how quickly things trigger you.

00:33:20.800 About course correcting as quickly as possible.

00:33:23.500 About rekindling relationships with romantic partners, with your children.

00:33:28.940 It's about growing your business.

00:33:31.560 It's about just feeling better about who you are as a man and maximizing all of what 2026 has to offer.

00:33:38.980 So I'm going to encourage you to join us, to band with us, to be in our brotherhood, to get insight to the council, to get insight to the accountability, and to get insight from me directly as I engage and host and facilitate a lot of these conversations.

00:33:52.900 Guys, head to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:33:57.180 That's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil to learn more and to register your seat at the table.

00:34:04.160 We'll see you inside.

00:34:07.600 I'm glad you brought it up.

00:34:09.160 I like the visual picture, and no metaphor is perfect.

00:34:11.540 And so I'm a bit of contrarian at heart.

00:34:13.600 And so I hear this theory, and I think, okay, so this is good.

00:34:17.460 We can hash this out a little bit together in real time.

00:34:19.420 And so I'm not sure that the green light people believe themselves to be green light people.

00:34:25.120 I think they would say they have as many red lights as the red light people have.

00:34:30.340 Perspective.

00:34:30.760 It's all just relative.

00:34:32.520 Yeah, it's all relative.

00:34:34.140 And for us, red light people might see it like, oh, you just got it really easy in life, you know?

00:34:41.380 And for us, we may not see what they see as far as red lights go.

00:34:46.940 We see just cruising through life like, man, you got it.

00:34:50.460 You got it good.

00:34:51.660 In fact, I would say we might all venture to say that we are all red light people in ourselves.

00:34:59.000 And when we don't realize that we're hitting green lights all the time.

00:35:04.480 That's very plausible.

00:35:05.900 It's a philosophical theory, and it's a fun one to break down, isn't it?

00:35:09.060 It is.

00:35:09.500 Because the other thought that I have is, well, you know, I'm notoriously, notoriously, I'm

00:35:18.860 not going to say bad, but inconvenient things happen to me when I travel, air travel specifically.

00:35:25.700 Like flights delayed, flights canceled, lose luggage, get put in the back and my seat gets

00:35:32.060 taken, like notoriously inconvenient things.

00:35:34.800 Not bad things.

00:35:35.720 I haven't crashed on a plane, so inconvenient.

00:35:37.700 Relative, I was a bit of a relative.

00:35:42.540 I haven't crashed yet, so I think it's funny as some people think like that, like, hey,

00:35:46.520 you know what?

00:35:47.720 Kid behind me is kicking my back of my seat for like the last 12 hours, but hey, at least

00:35:54.320 we're not on a free fall dive at 30,000 feet, right?

00:35:57.220 Exactly.

00:35:57.520 And that's actually a very philosophical way, like, yeah.

00:36:00.640 But, you know, I think about it and I remember as these things started happening and I'm like,

00:36:05.760 oh, I was like so bothered and upset and like put out and angry.

00:36:09.520 And I'd yell at the sweet woman at the kiosk trying to like manage 27 other pissed off customers. 1.00

00:36:16.920 And I just grew so accustomed to it that whenever the intercom came on, I'm like, oh, here we go.

00:36:24.200 And they'd say, oh, I'm sorry, your flight's been delayed.

00:36:26.180 And I kind of just chuckle because I'm like, yeah, I know.

00:36:28.540 That's why I scheduled it three hours before I had to be there because I knew this was going to happen.

00:36:32.640 Um, it is, it is interesting.

00:36:36.960 And then I got thinking my, my, my oldest son and I were driving down to Las Vegas several months ago.

00:36:43.900 And, uh, we were going on a hunt in Minnesota, actually, Alexandria area.

00:36:48.540 I don't know how close that was to you where you grew up.

00:36:50.860 Yeah.

00:36:52.060 So we were going on a hunt to Minnesota and, uh, we get about halfway down to Las Vegas,

00:36:58.140 which is two hours South of us.

00:36:59.660 And we hit some traffic and we waited and we waited and we waited and we waited.

00:37:05.420 And we found, we ended up waiting for about three hours in traffic, dead halt for three hours.

00:37:12.240 And we jumped online and we, we saw that there was a horrific, uh, car accident about 200 yards in front of us.

00:37:20.080 And of a vehicle had to come on an on-ramp, either they were probably tired or drunk or something.

00:37:26.120 Cause it was very early morning and they had smashed into a oncoming semi-truck killed, instantly killed them.

00:37:35.540 Man.

00:37:36.440 And that's a red light, right?

00:37:38.160 By any objective standard, that's a red light.

00:37:39.920 We missed one flight.

00:37:40.960 We missed our second flight.

00:37:42.260 It cost me an extra $450, I think, to change the flights.

00:37:46.520 And I was all butthurt and pissed off about it.

00:37:48.440 And then I remembered something, my son and I had to stop because my fuel light came on and we had to stop for gas before we had got down there.

00:38:00.200 And I stopped to get gas.

00:38:01.340 We filled up and we got on the road and no harm, no foul, no issue.

00:38:04.160 I was like, Oh, we got to hurry, man.

00:38:05.980 If I was 10 seconds, 20 seconds further down the road, that car could have very easily crashed into me.

00:38:15.380 And it got me thinking, I didn't think about it in this context, but since you're saying it, it got me thinking that I'm not sure the red lights are really red lights.

00:38:24.700 It's just a matter of how we choose to look at them.

00:38:27.340 What if sometimes that red light saves your butt and you don't know it?

00:38:31.860 Or what if sometimes when you decide to stop for that yellow light and risk more red lights, that that, instead of going through the intersection, you could have been T-boned, you just decided to stop. 0.57

00:38:45.260 It's a hell of a perspective, man.

00:38:47.200 Yeah.

00:38:47.400 And when you're sitting in traffic, you realize that in front of you, there's a massacre, a mass casualty in front of you.

00:38:53.480 Sometimes sitting in that traffic isn't the worst thing in the world.

00:38:57.340 That's the worst of things that's going to happen to you that day versus the people in front of you causing it.

00:39:02.880 Yeah.

00:39:03.820 Yeah. 1.00

00:39:04.920 And I remember thinking like, ah, some asshole got in a wreck because they weren't paying attention. 1.00

00:39:09.260 I saw it. 1.00

00:39:09.680 I'm like, oh, yeah.

00:39:12.100 It makes you feel bad about like, oh, my, my thoughts, you know?

00:39:15.600 And those are the things too.

00:39:16.760 It's like, we have to give our thoughts grace.

00:39:18.440 We have to give ourselves grace in our thoughts.

00:39:19.960 We are, the human nature is so fallible.

00:39:25.180 And I think sometimes we forget both within ourselves and other people just how fallible we are.

00:39:30.860 And the things that we think of quite often are negative by our nature.

00:39:36.600 I very rarely do I ever see anybody that thinks positively 24-7 all the time.

00:39:41.560 If they do, they have a 24-hour dopamine drip going on.

00:39:44.900 And I'm just like, and we've been around those people, I think, sometimes.

00:39:48.660 And it's like, you know what?

00:39:51.620 I just, I didn't need a break from you.

00:39:53.060 I just need a break.

00:39:54.020 I can't stand their positivity all the time.

00:39:56.320 You wonder like, are you serious?

00:39:57.980 Are you real about this?

00:39:59.080 Or are you?

00:39:59.460 They're hard.

00:39:59.840 I think I made a comment like their day on a video was like, these people are like, you just got to think positive.

00:40:05.780 You just got to think positively thinking, thinking about being positive and journal.

00:40:10.040 I'm like, it's my social media influencer, Karen, that, you know, the people that, I'm just gracious all the time.

00:40:20.620 I'm just about gratitude and journaling.

00:40:22.700 And look, there's truth to that. 0.98

00:40:24.820 But the people that comes from you are like, you're such a nerd. 1.00

00:40:28.760 Like, you're fake. 1.00

00:40:30.660 Everything about you is fake. 0.99

00:40:32.120 Like, you're, you know, you see it too and you're like, ugh. 0.97

00:40:35.680 And then we judge them, you know, and it's like, you know, maybe I should stop being such a prick and just be like, yeah, all right. 0.91

00:40:43.680 Yeah, fair enough.

00:40:44.400 You've, you know, but there's science to it.

00:40:46.820 It's truth.

00:40:47.560 I think sometimes we just be around those people all the time.

00:40:50.080 Like, you know what?

00:40:51.280 I think I'm just going to go wallow in my self-loathing and my self-hate real quick because you're too, you give me diabetes, like being around you, you know?

00:40:59.440 Well, and look, I mean, look, I'm guilty of just being as judgmental as anybody else.

00:41:07.220 Yeah.

00:41:07.760 And then I remember, yeah, I'm trying to fake most of my way through life too. 0.96

00:41:12.300 You know, like I'm having a bad day today and so I'm doing this podcast, but, you know, I'm putting a damn smile on my face. 0.92

00:41:18.020 Or, you know, my kids show me something that I really just don't care about. 0.94

00:41:22.700 I have no interest in it.

00:41:23.620 And I'm like, yeah, that's really cool, bud.

00:41:25.280 And it's not, you know, it's like most of us are trying to just fake our way through life, I think, for the most part.

00:41:31.680 And so I think we can afford each other some grace on those things.

00:41:34.820 Oh, absolutely.

00:41:36.280 Sometimes it requires just putting on a happy face.

00:41:39.780 This is so, I saw this meme and said, treat yourself, disassociate a little bit.

00:41:44.140 And look, there's nothing wrong with it.

00:41:45.660 There's a reason why we possess the faculty for reason.

00:41:48.000 There's a reason why we have evolved or been created by divine design to possess reason and the brain that we have for us to be able to kind of get through this thing we call life.

00:42:05.640 Whether it's good or bad or our perception of it.

00:42:11.280 Sometimes we just, we've never done this before.

00:42:14.660 I've never been 42 before.

00:42:17.060 I'm still figuring out what it means to be 42 and then 43 and then 44.

00:42:21.500 And oh my God, one day I'm going to be 50 and going, what the hell have I done in the last 30 years since I turned 20, right?

00:42:31.240 We're all still figuring it out.

00:42:33.060 We can't apply experience to it because we haven't experienced this part yet.

00:42:38.240 We can only take what we've known thus far, the tools that we've developed, and apply it from a younger age that we learned and apply it at a new age and new circumstances.

00:42:49.680 And sometimes we're going to fuck it up. 0.97

00:42:52.200 We all fuck it up. 0.95

00:42:53.840 And we have to give ourselves grace for that, but also really give other people's grace for it. 0.91

00:43:02.840 Now, as long as their intent wasn't to fuck it up and then it's like, come on, like, like, why are you being like that on purpose?

00:43:10.480 Yeah, well, I like, I like what you just said. 0.60

00:43:13.900 That, that lands with me.

00:43:15.240 I've never done this before.

00:43:16.820 You know, I've, and, and that could apply to big things and trivial things.

00:43:21.520 Like I've never had this conversation with you. 0.99

00:43:23.880 And so I'm bound to say something stupid. 0.98

00:43:26.240 Um, I I've never, you know, had this job before. 0.99

00:43:29.820 I've never driven, you know how, like you're driving down the road and there's somebody in front of you and they're probably old and decrepit and they're like taking their sweet ass time.

00:43:37.120 And it's like, what the hell I'm trying to get somewhere.

00:43:38.880 It's like, maybe that person has just never been on that road before.

00:43:41.880 Same as you when you're on an unfamiliar road.

00:43:44.780 Bro, I live in the mountains and there are three ways to get up to where I live.

00:43:50.780 And every single way, there's always someone in front of me that is slow.

00:43:56.700 And I'm going to call them out there.

00:43:58.660 It is Subaru drivers.

00:44:00.240 You guys need to use turnouts, use turnouts for the love of God.

00:44:04.840 And I've driven this road hard.

00:44:05.700 They probably have the same gay voice that you were using earlier too, I bet. 0.89

00:44:08.400 No, I don't know.

00:44:09.840 I just know because in mountain areas, mountain areas, Subarus are actually very practical.

00:44:14.120 They have all wheel drive.

00:44:16.080 So like, I've actually looked at a Subaru going, oh, that's a good idea.

00:44:19.540 But I actually bought a recently a four wheel drive.

00:44:24.820 I bought a four wheel drive Nissan Xterra with lockers on.

00:44:28.220 I've always wanted one.

00:44:28.940 It's a Pro 4X.

00:44:30.200 And it's been lifted.

00:44:31.440 It's got a Titan swap on.

00:44:32.840 It's got Geolanders. 1.00

00:44:34.380 And it's great.

00:44:35.820 I've been working on it.

00:44:36.780 Um, but I, I, I drive these, uh, these roads to your points.

00:44:40.580 Like they're driving up these roads and, and they don't know it.

00:44:44.140 And I'm like, I've driven this road a hundred times.

00:44:46.060 Get out of my way.

00:44:47.180 I'm sorry.

00:44:47.540 You don't have the skill, confidence, and competency to drive this road.

00:44:50.840 And I forget sometimes that this might be their first time.

00:44:53.620 They might be 70, 80 years old.

00:44:55.580 And they're like, I just want to live to the top of this.

00:44:58.780 Oh, cause it is dangerous driving mountain roads.

00:45:00.460 And so I get so frustrated.

00:45:02.480 I think more, I get frustrated when they don't use the turnout and I'm like, okay, either

00:45:06.680 you're willfully trying to police me at my speed, or you just don't notice me.

00:45:11.940 And either way, I am so annoyed right now.

00:45:14.860 And every once in a while, you just got to sit back and you're like, you know what?

00:45:18.900 There might be a reason this is happening right now.

00:45:21.320 There might be a reason.

00:45:22.320 Maybe the old man is, is trying to slow me down right now.

00:45:26.220 And the person in front of me, it's not their fault.

00:45:28.500 It's maybe not be their intent.

00:45:29.780 And even if it is their intent, maybe there's a reason, a very good, logical, solid reason.

00:45:36.480 You have to take a deep breath and go, you know what?

00:45:41.080 Barring an emergency where someone is saying goodbye in a hospital or there's birth of my

00:45:46.920 child, I really don't need to go this fast.

00:45:50.980 I think I'm going to hang out for a little bit.

00:45:52.540 And I tell you, there is one time where I followed somebody that pissed me off so much.

00:45:56.920 And then they, they did a three 60, they hit some black eye three 60 and they didn't crash 0.97

00:46:02.960 too hard, but enough.

00:46:03.920 And I was there behind them to actually like check to see if they're okay, provide medical

00:46:09.580 aid.

00:46:09.940 And then I stayed with them until they got, uh, um, uh, a tow truck, uh, to take them.

00:46:16.420 And that might've been my purpose that day is to sit there, be annoyed until they, they

00:46:21.280 actually crashed.

00:46:22.120 And then I was there to help them out.

00:46:24.180 Yeah.

00:46:24.540 I mean, I, I had a similar experience.

00:46:26.620 I, this was, this was a long time ago, but I was driving down a, uh, it was a four lane

00:46:31.880 highway.

00:46:32.320 So two South bound to North bound lanes, and there was a vehicle in front of me and they

00:46:38.100 were going too slow.

00:46:39.000 I thought they were going too slow and they were bothering me.

00:46:41.580 And so I sped around them and I tried to pass them and I saw something in the corner of

00:46:46.580 my eye and I slowed down.

00:46:47.940 And as soon as I started to pass these people, they revved up and they like gunned it.

00:46:52.820 Cause they didn't want me to pass them.

00:46:54.480 I slowed down.

00:46:56.080 They didn't.

00:46:57.040 And they hit right head on into a deer.

00:46:59.420 Now everything was fine, but it was like, it was a light bulb moment for me that there's

00:47:07.160 reason.

00:47:07.780 There's reasons that you don't always see, you know, I saw that deer.

00:47:11.660 They didn't see that deer.

00:47:12.760 They were more worried about making sure I didn't pass them.

00:47:15.120 And so fortunately I was safe.

00:47:16.420 They were not, everybody was fine.

00:47:17.940 Except for the deer.

00:47:19.800 But, um, it was a light bulb moment where it was like, you know, maybe we ought to just

00:47:26.280 not be so arrogant to believe that we see everything perfectly.

00:47:30.220 And there's things that around us that we're not privy to that might weigh into our life

00:47:36.040 factors.

00:47:37.620 Oh, 110%.

00:47:39.260 I actually reminded me of, um, it was a few weeks ago.

00:47:43.800 I was driving down a single lane road and this person pulled out in front of me as fast

00:47:48.180 as they could, but then drove really slow, really slow.

00:47:53.680 And it was pissing me off.

00:47:57.600 I was in a rush.

00:47:59.340 So I flashed my lights at him, which is, which is a thing you do.

00:48:02.700 You, you flash the lights like, Hey, do me a favor.

00:48:05.480 Like, Hey, I'm, I'm in a rush.

00:48:06.960 If you can either speed up or pull over, like, Hey, let me, let me go by.

00:48:10.340 Uh, and, you know, and people take that obviously a certain way.

00:48:13.820 If, if you can't help the way people take that, whether it's arrogance or like, bro, 0.82

00:48:18.720 screw you, I'm not, you're going to be behind me now.

00:48:21.020 I try to get past them and it was a two lane highway. 0.99

00:48:23.880 And I was, it was the, you know, you could pass, it was a, it was a lane that you could

00:48:28.420 pass.

00:48:28.820 Like it wasn't passing lane, but it was the opposite side.

00:48:31.120 But there were lines where it was broken apart where you can, you're allowed to pass them.

00:48:34.380 And they sped up, they sped up on me.

00:48:37.700 And I was like, that is inherently dangerous and extremely reckless and trying to, to instigate

00:48:47.780 something with me.

00:48:48.660 Now I conceal carry.

00:48:50.760 I have to maintain the utmost moral, ethical, and legal ground possible because otherwise it

00:48:58.540 could escalate into a situation where I'd have to use my firearm.

00:49:02.020 And you don't ever want to ever have to use your firearm because even if you're cleared

00:49:07.020 legally, you, it's a lot of drama.

00:49:09.740 It's a lot of mess.

00:49:10.540 It's a lot of expenses, anxiety, emotions.

00:49:13.380 Yeah.

00:49:13.540 The emotional toil.

00:49:14.620 Yeah, absolutely.

00:49:15.320 Oh my gosh.

00:49:16.420 Yeah.

00:49:16.660 Cause now you're like, oh my gosh, you know, am I, I don't care who you are.

00:49:20.340 You think you're justified in that moment, but you're going to second question yourself.

00:49:23.720 And that is the worst part.

00:49:25.380 I've talked to people who've been in shootings before and they, they said I was a hundred percent

00:49:28.900 at that point, but I'll tell you afterwards, I started questioning everything.

00:49:31.900 Because now the police officers investigating me and investigating and the DA was investigating

00:49:37.400 how to get lawyers and all this stuff.

00:49:39.480 And it was, it's, it's a big mess.

00:49:41.860 And even if you get acquitted legally, you still have the civil part of it that you have

00:49:46.720 to deal with where their family or their spouse is going to sue you civilly for wrongful

00:49:51.860 death.

00:49:52.220 And it's just not worth it.

00:49:54.240 So when this person sped past me, um, or kept speeding up, like to try and block me in

00:50:00.940 or potentially kill me, I had to slow down, get behind them and just eat it.

00:50:05.720 And I will tell you, eating your pride, eating your, when you feel justified in something,

00:50:11.340 because I think often people, people think they feel more justified than they really

00:50:17.140 are, or that they have more of a license to act on an impulse or emotion than they really

00:50:23.180 do.

00:50:23.520 Whereas if they gave themselves some time to let the information catch up from their

00:50:28.380 thamylist to amygdala and that, that long road of those neural pathways, that they can

00:50:32.680 just kind of like, okay, what's the consequence if I act on my impulse and what I feel is justified.

00:50:37.660 And oftentimes you give it some breath and you realize like, Hey, this is going to work

00:50:42.020 out.

00:50:43.300 And I have other options in my tool bag before I enact, uh, what I think I can act.

00:50:50.500 And, and he ended up, the guy ended up pulling to the side of the road and it looked like

00:50:54.380 he wanted to get in a confrontation.

00:50:55.880 And I knew what that meant.

00:50:57.580 I knew that that was going to end up in a situation where egos, anger, pride, arrogance,

00:51:04.100 emotions, and I had my firearm on me.

00:51:08.060 And so I was like, you know what?

00:51:10.080 I'm just going to keep on going.

00:51:11.960 You bro, you have a good day.

00:51:14.220 I will, I will see you later.

00:51:16.060 And I went home, no other incident and no other, um, nothing else.

00:51:24.340 I thought about myself and I felt how angry I was that they, they sped up on me on that.

00:51:28.860 But I also don't know what they were dealing with, right?

00:51:32.720 A bad day.

00:51:33.340 And I know people like, who cares what they were dealing with?

00:51:35.480 They tried, they almost killed you.

00:51:36.660 Well, I made the decision to go outside that lane and drive faster than when I could have

00:51:42.460 just sat behind them the rest of the time and, and, and just chilled.

00:51:47.620 Yeah.

00:51:48.100 I mean, that, that's a good example.

00:51:49.520 I wrote, I pulled something up because I wanted to share it.

00:51:52.820 I was, I was thinking about some of my plans for Q1 and, and one of my objectives for the

00:51:56.880 quarter is to become a little bit more calibrated as it relates to my self-awareness, which is

00:52:03.320 something I need to work on.

00:52:04.200 And I wrote down, how do you measure self-awareness?

00:52:07.380 You know, how do you measure if you're more self-aware than you were 30 days ago, for example?

00:52:11.340 So I wrote down five characteristics and a few of them hit on what you just said.

00:52:15.860 I'm curious what you think about this.

00:52:17.520 So number one is I wrote trigger speed.

00:52:20.340 So how quickly do you get triggered?

00:52:22.820 Number two is pinpoint accuracy, meaning can you actually evaluate accurately what's happening

00:52:31.520 in the moment? 0.99

00:52:32.140 Or are you making a bunch of shit up? 1.00

00:52:34.060 Number three is critique capability. 0.99

00:52:36.020 So if somebody gives you feedback, are you able to accept it, to hold it, maybe not embrace

00:52:41.920 it, but to at least consider it.

00:52:43.880 Number four is behavior alignment is what you're doing now, moving forward in alignment with

00:52:48.900 the kind of man you want to be.

00:52:50.060 And then the last is after action review quality.

00:52:53.940 Can you actually reflect like you did in your situation and give an accurate after action

00:53:00.100 review?

00:53:00.580 So the next time something like that happens, you don't do something dumb that gets you 0.93

00:53:04.800 or somebody else killed. 0.97

00:53:07.580 Right.

00:53:08.260 I love that.

00:53:09.960 Point number one.

00:53:10.900 So before we dive into that, because I think that's wonderful, I think I would definitely

00:53:15.640 explore that.

00:53:17.440 One thing that I think people should, there's a term people should know, it's called metacognition.

00:53:24.300 Thinking that you're thinking, recognizing that you're thinking, exploring the thoughts in

00:53:28.720 real time as it's happening.

00:53:29.980 That's where a lot of your temperance, patience, and your ability to control your actions lies.

00:53:37.920 Viktor Frankl, and I say this a lot on podcasts and other places and on my social media, it's

00:53:45.000 such a wonderful quote that relates to our physiology of our brain is between stimulus and response,

00:53:50.060 there is space.

00:53:51.460 And in that space is a power to choose our response.

00:53:53.900 And that power to choose our response lies our growth and our freedom.

00:53:58.060 I chose to just pull back in behind that dude before I crashed in another car and just eat

00:54:05.820 it.

00:54:06.000 When I saw that they pulled off to the side of the road, hoping to get into some sort

00:54:10.120 of confrontation, I kept on going because I knew my ego, my emotions, I knew the capability

00:54:16.920 that I had at that point and the tools I had at that point where it would just been absolute

00:54:20.700 bad.

00:54:21.860 And I believe I chose the right decision was like, all right, cool.

00:54:24.600 You know what?

00:54:25.000 Pull them behind you, let you continue until you decide to turn off eventually.

00:54:28.680 And they did.

00:54:29.620 But thinking that you're thinking that is that space, it gives you that space.

00:54:34.380 So between stimulus and response or space, that's from your thamalus, which is your area

00:54:40.540 where it just kind of filters information and directs traffic of information.

00:54:44.580 And there's two ways.

00:54:45.560 It goes from thamalus to amygdala straight away.

00:54:48.760 That's your impulse.

00:54:49.440 When someone scares you, you go, oh, like this, right?

00:54:52.020 You turn, you get behind, get into a stance, you're ready to go.

00:54:55.600 That is from thamalus to amygdala.

00:54:56.900 That's your response.

00:54:58.200 Some people go, oh, like this.

00:55:00.220 And that's their surrender response.

00:55:02.240 Depends on how you're trained and what you know.

00:55:04.320 And then that other information, that information goes that second route.

00:55:08.020 It goes through your sensory cortex.

00:55:09.560 It goes through your hippocampus.

00:55:10.880 It goes in your prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for your reason, your cognitive

00:55:15.560 thought, abstract thinking, and then your amygdala.

00:55:18.340 And it's in that long route that you have just a little bit more time to actually slow

00:55:23.300 it down and go, oh, someone scared me behind me. 0.99

00:55:26.400 I'm going to punch him. 0.93

00:55:27.280 Oh, no, it's my buddy. 0.99

00:55:29.380 I could still get away with it.

00:55:31.800 Right?

00:55:32.260 But I'm not going to.

00:55:33.800 Right?

00:55:34.180 That's your reason.

00:55:35.260 Now you consciously decided to punch him instead of just out of reaction.

00:55:37.980 That's an example, a loose example of metacognition.

00:55:41.960 I'm thinking that I'm thinking.

00:55:43.660 And the more that you practice that space between your impulse and your rational reaction,

00:55:50.740 you begin to learn to control that.

00:55:53.260 You begin to learn to say, I, despite my emotions, despite how I feel right now, I can still act

00:56:01.000 as a Stoic say with justice, with courage, with temperance, with wisdom and choose my

00:56:07.760 response, despite how I feel.

00:56:09.680 And that's the biggest.

00:56:11.580 When you can demonstrate that to yourself, that means you have more control over your

00:56:15.860 life than you really think you do.

00:56:17.580 When you control that impulse, that ability to say, I'm justified in my anger. 1.00

00:56:22.040 So I'm going to punch this person in the face. 0.98

00:56:23.480 Or I'm justified in doing this thing. 1.00

00:56:26.680 I'm justified.

00:56:27.460 I dieted all week.

00:56:28.940 I'm justified to eat this candy bar.

00:56:30.520 But if you hold off for maybe a second or maybe a minute or an hour or a day, a month,

00:56:37.980 a year, you'll find that things become easier to control when it comes to sobriety, withholding

00:56:44.800 that impulse, that action to the impulse of, I want this drink, or that impulse to do anything.

00:56:52.720 If you can, you know, when someone insults you, no one said you have to respond right

00:56:58.480 off the bat with something snarky, quick, quick, and, um, and awesome.

00:57:02.540 You can actually take a second to respond to somebody in email, an insult, a Facebook

00:57:06.880 comment.

00:57:07.420 You can take your time.

00:57:08.780 No one said you have to respond immediately.

00:57:11.020 You can take a day.

00:57:12.040 You can take a month.

00:57:12.860 And by that time, you're probably like, oh yeah, I forgot about that.

00:57:16.540 Like, because your emotions pass, you've controlled your action despite your emotions.

00:57:21.520 And that's where goodness lies.

00:57:22.940 That's where virtue lies.

00:57:24.300 That's what it means to be disciplined is to not react to your impulse, but to decide

00:57:30.680 how you're going to react despite that emotion, despite that feeling.

00:57:36.660 Do you feel like, I know you've talked a lot about this, this concept of gray man in the

00:57:41.640 past, and I'm really intrigued by this.

00:57:43.280 And, and, you know, I was doing a little bit of research and looking into it.

00:57:45.840 And one of the best definitions that I saw was low profile, high capability.

00:57:50.000 And that really spoke to me.

00:57:52.560 It really resonated with me where it was like, you know, like I want to be that guy.

00:57:58.460 And that's a little bit counter intuitive based on my profession where I'm trying to put myself

00:58:03.460 out there.

00:58:03.960 But I still want to be the guy who's out on a date and he doesn't need to be open caring, 0.75

00:58:09.860 for example, or there's no false bravado, or he's not doing some weird shit to try to impress 0.85

00:58:15.120 her other people. 0.93

00:58:16.980 But at the end of the day, he knows he can do what he needs to do.

00:58:19.920 He knows he can pay the bill.

00:58:21.140 He knows that he can handle business.

00:58:23.060 If there's some sort of altercation, um, he can, he can protect her and other people.

00:58:27.660 If he finds himself in a violent encounter, is that kind of the same concept?

00:58:32.420 And is that something that you would advocate for men?

00:58:34.400 The gray man is an interesting concept.

00:58:39.580 It's actually a survival strategy.

00:58:41.640 That's all it is.

00:58:42.340 And it's a contextual survival strategy.

00:58:44.260 You're not going to be the gray man 24 seven. 0.52

00:58:46.620 I've had people tell me you're not the gray man.

00:58:49.400 You have a high, you know, profile, but most people don't really notice you in public.

00:58:53.760 Very rarely does anyone actually ever notice me.

00:58:56.120 I think once or twice I've actually, and limited my industry where, you know, I, in, in my industry

00:59:01.900 where someone said, Hey man, are you?

00:59:04.100 Yeah.

00:59:04.560 I'm like, Oh dude, nice to meet you.

00:59:06.020 Very cool.

00:59:06.680 And that's about it.

00:59:07.780 Right?

00:59:08.500 The gray man, like I said, is a, a survival strategy. 0.96

00:59:11.980 And within that survival strategy, there's different tools and those tools work depending

00:59:20.500 on your intent and your knowledge, right?

00:59:22.900 It's not about, I'm not wearing tactical clothing or I'm not open caring, right?

00:59:28.240 Because gray man is about blending in physically, but also mentally, right? 0.91

00:59:36.100 Your behavior.

00:59:37.000 If your behavior, you can wear whatever you want to, but if your behavior, uh, disrupts

00:59:42.360 that environment around you, then they're going to notice you looking a little bit differently.

00:59:46.200 The tactical pants, the open carry, the cool guy, tactical shirt, right?

00:59:51.160 And, but like I said, it's contextual.

00:59:52.940 So if you're in an area where everyone open carries and you're open carrying weird if you

00:59:59.340 weren't, yeah, I'd be wary for it.

01:00:01.700 If I'm down by Oceanside by Camp Pendleton and I'm wearing, you know, like khaki pants

01:00:07.780 and a, a fitted, you know, veteran t-shirts, I would run style in that area.

01:00:14.840 Then we know who you are.

01:00:15.840 Would it, yeah.

01:00:17.160 And, and, and, and so it's gray man is such a diverse type of idea and everyone has their

01:00:24.780 own idea of it.

01:00:26.660 When I first started the gray man, to me, it was more of a pragmatic term for preparedness

01:00:33.500 because everyone hears preparedness.

01:00:34.940 They're like doomsday, you know, they see some dude on discovery and a rascal shoot machine

01:00:41.280 guns.

01:00:41.580 Like it's a, some right-wing militia thing.

01:00:43.980 And I don't want people to see it like that.

01:00:45.420 I think everyone should practice a level of preparedness, a level of self-reliance where

01:00:50.020 you're able to do something for yourself to survive whatever it is that you're going

01:00:56.140 through.

01:00:56.420 And I think people tend to think that survival is just about wilderness or disaster.

01:01:01.660 When we're dealing with survival environments every day, your financial environment, your

01:01:06.340 relationship environment, your work environment, your political environment, your social environment,

01:01:11.580 those are environments you have to endure every day.

01:01:13.620 So for me, over the years, I've adapted gray man to be more of an emotional application, 0.72

01:01:20.840 a mental application of survival, because no matter all those cool tools and skills and 0.94

01:01:26.720 what you wear, it doesn't mean shit.

01:01:28.260 If you can't survive your mind first, and that's where your survival comes from in any 0.94

01:01:33.680 environment is your ability to think rationally, think cognitively, overcome your impulses.

01:01:39.620 That's what being a gray man is about. 1.00

01:01:42.340 Sure, it is as low visibility, high capability, but you can apply any of those high capable

01:01:48.820 traits that you've developed over the years until you can control the capability of your

01:01:53.540 mind.

01:01:54.580 And I think that's where the gray man lies in its secret. 0.74

01:01:57.080 It isn't so much as being invisible or blending in.

01:02:01.240 It's your mind first.

01:02:05.460 It's your thought process.

01:02:07.560 It's your training, your intellectual, cognitive, and emotional training that you study every

01:02:12.380 day, whether it's by faith, theology, philosophy, science, or any other those type of intellectual

01:02:20.040 disciplines, that's where it lies.

01:02:23.200 And then once you've started understanding that you have those abilities, then you start

01:02:29.420 practicing those skills.

01:02:30.580 And those skills enhance your capabilities, enhance your mindset, enhances your implicit

01:02:36.740 memory, which is where your skills are stored once you've worked them from procedural memory.

01:02:42.380 And so your mindset over anything else, I think that's what it means to be the gray man.

01:02:47.920 Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

01:02:50.840 Because as I was thinking of you addressing this, I'm thinking about what is the antithesis

01:02:55.220 to the gray man?

01:02:56.000 And to me, you tell me if you think differently, is the false bravado.

01:03:00.780 It's the ego.

01:03:01.600 It's the pride.

01:03:02.180 It's the guy that when that person in front of you pulls over, you pull behind him and

01:03:06.080 you get into an altercation and somebody ends up dead.

01:03:09.320 And somebody's husband is not coming home.

01:03:11.480 Somebody's dad is no longer around.

01:03:13.200 Um, I think that's the antithesis to it because it's based on posturing, um, maybe it's a better

01:03:22.320 word.

01:03:23.660 Yeah.

01:03:24.180 The gray man is about mental control, self-control in your environment, no matter what it's ability 0.74

01:03:29.360 to allow being a gray man.

01:03:32.380 Um, and I hate that term of being a gray man.

01:03:35.920 Um, but practicing that survival strategy and getting familiar with it allows you the

01:03:45.580 ability to decide when to engage and when to disengage in social situations.

01:03:49.400 It gives you that space, that power to choose your response, you know, and step in.

01:03:54.640 Um, and so, yeah, I believe a lot of that bravado, that ego that people have like, Ooh, I'm Billy

01:04:01.700 Badass cause I carry a gun or I'm Billy Badass cause I've done this or I've done that.

01:04:06.140 And that just gets you more in trouble.

01:04:08.640 It lacks discipline.

01:04:11.100 Whereas a gray man is, is more about mental discipline saying, yeah, I have this capability, 1.00

01:04:16.540 but I don't have to use it right now.

01:04:19.100 I can use my mind.

01:04:20.700 I can use my ability to communicate.

01:04:23.480 I think that's one of the biggest things that's overlooked is, is people's ability to

01:04:27.500 communicate without intention, without malice and just being a good person.

01:04:33.080 Other people generally 99% of the time keeps you out of bad situations.

01:04:39.300 Yeah.

01:04:39.760 Well, I agree.

01:04:41.480 Brady.

01:04:41.940 I mean, this has been fascinating.

01:04:43.060 I love our discussions cause we see it in very much the same way, but we come at it from

01:04:46.720 a different approach and it gives me some things to hang on to and some, some edges to

01:04:50.400 to consider.

01:04:51.680 Um, I know a lot of guys listening will probably feel the same way.

01:04:55.020 How do they connect with you?

01:04:56.220 Learn more about what you're up to and, uh, figure it out from there.

01:05:01.160 Sounds good.

01:05:01.720 The easiest way to find me is on Instagram at gray man dot project.

01:05:07.460 G R A Y M A N dot project. 1.00

01:05:11.300 I'm, I'm sitting in my studio.

01:05:14.380 Obviously you see my background behind me.

01:05:15.940 I'm working on possibly starting a YouTube podcast here called a semi rational voice.

01:05:22.040 And the idea is that I am trying to give a semi rational, uh, view and approach to a lot

01:05:32.160 of the things that we deal with on a daily basis.

01:05:34.960 Um, whether it's cultural, whether it's tactical, whether it's relationships, family, work, uh,

01:05:42.840 whatever's going on.

01:05:43.860 I want to try and provide, uh,

01:05:45.940 just a rational voice to looking at the nuance, the context, the intent, the pragmatics and

01:05:55.040 semantics of things that really brings out, uh, the truth to a lot of things that are skewed

01:06:01.780 and presented to us and, and hopefully get people to think a different way to just realize

01:06:07.180 that you don't have to be driven so emotionally by everything that you consume on social media,

01:06:11.340 that there's always more to the story and it's up to you to find it.

01:06:16.140 And I'm hoping maybe I can bring, bring that, um, as, as something positive to our, to our society.

01:06:23.700 Yeah.

01:06:24.140 Well, you seem to do it, man.

01:06:25.220 I've, I've really been enjoying a few of your reels lately where, you know, you're tying your

01:06:29.060 boots up or putting on your clothes for church or wherever you're going.

01:06:32.520 And I'm like, man, that's awesome.

01:06:33.960 Like the, it is, it's a, it's a rational approach.

01:06:36.580 It's a level-headed approach to me.

01:06:38.380 It's just a human approach.

01:06:40.320 It's, it's not, it's not these caricatures of humans that we see on social media anymore.

01:06:46.080 It's an actual human being.

01:06:48.240 Like, that's how I would think.

01:06:49.700 That's how my friends would think.

01:06:51.180 That's how rational level-headed people would think. 1.00

01:06:53.280 Not these caricatures we see all the time being outrageous and saying crazy, stupid things 1.00

01:06:59.000 that you can't imagine they actually believe in. 0.99

01:07:00.900 And I value that and what you're doing, man.

01:07:03.460 I appreciate that.

01:07:04.800 And look, I've been guilty of that before.

01:07:06.380 You know, we, I think we all, when we get on social media, we get on social media, we

01:07:11.040 projected an abstract character of herself, an extension of herself that is not really

01:07:16.240 truly who we are, but a piece of it that is a bit more overzealous than we should be.

01:07:22.500 And I think what we're missing nowadays is people get behind a camera and they adopt a

01:07:27.840 character that they think people like, and they just aren't their authentic selves.

01:07:32.320 And this is my attempt to, to just be more authentic in myself.

01:07:36.680 And what I present is just a normal dude.

01:07:39.760 Just an average guy that reads philosophy, barely understands it without the help of some

01:07:45.820 sort of AI and other abstract concept thoughts that if I can, if I can understand it, so can

01:07:51.720 you.

01:07:51.940 And I'm going to try and break it down Barney style, not so much in a way that's condescending,

01:07:56.140 but in a way it's like, Hey, this is just me talking and I'm always trying to figure out what

01:08:01.120 works and get the positive message out there.

01:08:03.220 So I appreciate your support and, and your kind words.

01:08:05.840 I really do.

01:08:06.380 And, and, and it's good to, honestly, it's, it's good to know you and, and call you a

01:08:11.400 friend.

01:08:12.380 Likewise, man.

01:08:13.060 We'll sync it all up.

01:08:13.940 I appreciate you, brother.

01:08:14.640 Thanks for joining me today.

01:08:16.380 Thanks for having me, brother.

01:08:19.140 There you go, guys.

01:08:20.120 The one and only Brady Pesola.

01:08:21.560 I hope you enjoyed that one.

01:08:22.840 Um, Brady and I have some really convert powerful conversations, um, offline, online

01:08:27.960 on podcasts, and you can see what kind of man he is, how well-versed and intelligent

01:08:32.040 he is when it comes to the concept of the golden mean and stoicism and all the things

01:08:37.040 that we talked about today.

01:08:37.920 So if you would go give him a follow, you're going to love the videos that he does very

01:08:42.320 practical without all the bull crap and nonsense and noise and outrage.

01:08:47.800 And you're going to hear what it takes to be successful across multiple fronts in your 0.93

01:08:52.480 life.

01:08:53.440 Also make sure to check out the iron council will open through the middle of January.

01:08:58.640 Go to order of man.com slash iron council.

01:09:02.500 All right, guys, those are your marching orders.

01:09:04.820 We will be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become

01:09:09.860 the man you are meant to be.

01:09:12.080 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:09:14.940 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:09:18.760 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 30, 2025

BRADY PESOLA ｜ Low Profile, High Capability： Becoming a Grayman

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