Order of Man - BRETT BARTHOLOMEW ｜ Leading Through Chess, Not Checkers

00:00:00.240 Guys, we all want to lead, but not all of us can do so. Not right now, at least, but

00:00:04.920 that doesn't mean we aren't capable of becoming the leader we have a desire to be. My guest

00:00:10.340 today is Brett Bartholomew, a world-class performance coach, and he is going to share

00:00:14.700 exactly how we can begin to lead in our families, businesses, and communities more effectively.

00:00:20.940 Today, we talk about six driving factors of individuals, the four main communication styles

00:00:25.680 and how to use them effectively, how power, influence, and even manipulation can be wielded

00:00:30.840 for good, the use of referent power, and ultimately how leaders play chess, not checkers.

00:00:36.780 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge

00:00:41.640 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:47.460 easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:00:54.240 This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:00:59.320 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan

00:01:03.800 Mickler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here

00:01:07.980 and welcome back. We've had a great start to 2023 with some incredible podcast guests and

00:01:14.860 everything that we're doing over here. I'm just, I'm really, I'm really humbled. I'm really inspired.

00:01:19.640 I'm really motivated and I'm very grateful that you guys are tuning in, listening in,

00:01:24.900 applying what we're learning, sending me stories of how your life is getting better. That was my

00:01:29.280 ultimate goal when I started this podcast and movement eight years ago, and we are going strong

00:01:33.600 and we have no intention of letting off the gas anytime soon. So if you are new, welcome here.

00:01:39.980 This is a podcast dedicated to interviewing phenomenal men who are achieving at different

00:01:44.160 aspects of life, breaking down some of their success stories, talking about even their failures

00:01:49.640 behind and what they did to improve and get better. And hopefully you will be able to take

00:01:54.700 some of the information that you learn, apply it into your life and lead your family, your business,

00:01:58.960 your community, and yourself better. That's what we're all about. Improving men, reclaiming and

00:02:03.880 restoring masculinity. We're going to get into it with my friend and guest today, Brett Bartholomew

00:02:08.900 here in a minute. Before we do, I just want to mention, if you haven't picked up a copy of our battle

00:02:13.960 planner yet, I would highly suggest that you do. We're still in January as of the release of this

00:02:19.460 podcast. Some of you guys are ahead on your new year's resolutions. And let's be frank. A lot of

00:02:25.540 you guys are probably have already fell behind. I don't want that to happen. And it's not too late.

00:02:29.680 We can get back on track and using the battle planner that I have devised and created over eight

00:02:34.760 years of studying goal setting and achievements specifically as it relates to men, and then

00:02:40.920 actually put it into practice to see what works. We're going to give you something that's going to help

00:02:45.280 you accomplish big things in your life. And, uh, you can check it out at store.orderman.com

00:02:52.640 store.orderman.com. Look in the planner section and you'll find our, uh, battle planner. Thousands

00:02:59.540 of men have used this successfully. You'll get access to a short video that'll explain how to use

00:03:05.040 it effectively. And, uh, I think it's going to help. So again, check it out at store.orderman.com

00:03:10.100 and look at the planners section. All right, guys, with that said, let me introduce my guest.

00:03:15.280 Uh, Brett Bartholomew is a keynote speaker. He's a performance coach and consultant. He's also a

00:03:20.000 bestselling author. He's the founder of art of coaching. He has worked with members of fortune

00:03:26.060 500 companies, the U S special forces, sporting organizations, and professional athletes. Uh,

00:03:31.820 Brett is also a self-published bestselling author of his latest book, conscious coaching,

00:03:36.300 the art and science of building buy-in, which I have read. And some of his work has made it into

00:03:40.880 my own book as well, the masculinity manifesto, but taken together, Brett has coached a diverse

00:03:46.100 range of athletes from across 23 sports worldwide at levels ranging from youth athletes to Olympians.

00:03:53.380 He supported numerous super bowl and world series champions along with several professional

00:03:58.440 fighters. And right now he is conducting his doctoral research focused on the role of power dynamics,

00:04:04.200 persuasion, and optimizing change management within organizations. So clearly this is a guy

00:04:09.960 who is quite credible as it relates to leadership. Enjoy this one guys.

00:04:16.120 Brett, what's up, man? Great to have you back on the podcast.

00:04:19.260 Glad to be back on Ryan. Good to see you.

00:04:21.320 Good to see you. I was telling, I was telling you before we hit record, um, I referenced one of the

00:04:26.160 concepts I learned from you, uh, this idea of commitment and compliance that whatever the,

00:04:33.680 the way that you explained it just stuck with me now for years. And I love that idea. Could,

00:04:40.360 could you, could you just riff on that and let the guys know? Cause I think that's a great starting

00:04:45.320 point as it relates to leadership, which is the rest of the discussion that we're going to have

00:04:49.280 today. Yeah, absolutely. Now just to anchor it, right? So when you look at effective leadership

00:04:54.960 and we can get into fallacies of good and bad and why I use the term effective instead later,

00:04:59.280 if you want, but you know, you look at some aspects of it, there's relational aspects of it

00:05:03.640 and there's task-based aspects of it, right? Task is, Hey Ryan, I need you to do X, Y, and Z,

00:05:09.360 right? You have to do something. Relational is how you feel about that person, the connections you

00:05:13.600 build pretty straightforward, right? So when we look at outcomes of leadership, you're generally

00:05:19.640 going to see at the end of the day, something leads to compliance, commitment, or resistance.

00:05:24.820 Now I'll break these down pretty simply. Think of it this way. All right. If I have full commitment

00:05:30.220 and you can think of this as authentic buy-in, whatever synonym you want, that is like a plus

00:05:35.940 in the task column. Somebody you lead feels great about what you're asking them to do.

00:05:41.000 They view it as ethical or on point with mission and vision and values and all that, right? And then

00:05:46.080 there's a plus in the relational column. They also feel good about you, Ryan. You're a trustworthy

00:05:50.980 individual. You are a value-oriented leader. You're somebody that I believe in. And so boom,

00:05:56.000 check, check, right? Plus, plus. When you look at... Let me interrupt just real quick on that. When you

00:06:01.380 say plus, are you saying that you're using past credibility or authority, influence, whatever you

00:06:08.300 want to call it with those individuals? And so they are going to be committed or does... Let me think

00:06:15.800 about how to word this. Are we talking about you're adding to that column for future buy-in,

00:06:21.760 if that makes sense? Yeah. My apologies. I'm so used to teaching this on a whiteboard that I'm

00:06:25.680 speaking to imaginary whiteboard that isn't here, right? What I mean is those factors are present.

00:06:30.540 The trust in you as a person is present and that great relationship. And then the alignment of the

00:06:38.180 values that coincide with what you've asked them to do is present. And I'll give a literal example,

00:06:43.300 so let's say I love my neighbor, Daniel, great dude. But if he asked me to hide the body of

00:06:49.160 somebody right now, there's a plus, a positive in the relational side of that thing. But what he's

00:06:55.420 asking me to do, that's a minor. There's an asymmetry there, right? So I'm not committed to

00:07:00.480 doing that. Now, if we look at compliance, there's going to be that asymmetry represented. Either you feel

00:07:07.500 good about the task that you're being asked to do, but the person... And there's plenty of people that

00:07:12.980 have this. They have a job where they know they need to do something as part of their job.

00:07:17.700 Like, God, they hate their boss or they hate their manager. And so they're going to do their job.

00:07:23.260 But some people just do the bare minimum or they do enough to get by. And it doesn't even have to

00:07:27.400 be the bare minimum. It's just they do it. It's not as high on the level of commitment. It's like,

00:07:32.460 I'm going to do it because I know I have to. Then it can be the inverse as well. You could feel

00:07:36.080 really good about your boss, but something crappy they're asking you to do. Either way,

00:07:40.500 there's an asymmetry there. It seems like when it comes to compliance, there could be a lot of

00:07:49.980 manipulation taking place. For example, it may be obvious and it may be subconscious just under the

00:07:58.560 layer of the compliance. So for example, if you don't want to do what you don't want to do,

00:08:05.080 but you do it, you comply, it's because you might lose your job. Yeah, for sure. Pressure tactics

00:08:10.840 and things like that. Or in the case of Daniel and the dead body, you might comply if he has

00:08:18.340 some sort of dirt on you. And that would be a manipulation tactic for you to get you to engage

00:08:23.580 in something that's outside of your value alignment. No question. And by the way, Daniel and the dead

00:08:28.360 body is the name of my children's book that comes out this December. If you want to grab that.

00:08:32.300 Either that or your latest band, your newest band, that's a band name, Daniel and the dead

00:08:36.940 bodies or something. So yeah, for sure. But definitely not role-playing with my wife and

00:08:42.120 I, that's not part of it. Okay. Fair enough. Now I find like the use of contrast to be really

00:08:47.460 effective in this last part. And it's just, all right, we know what commitment is. We have a general

00:08:52.160 idea. Now resistance is just that, the antithesis, right? You don't feel good about the person,

00:08:57.760 that relationships there, that trust isn't there. And no, you are not in agreement. However,

00:09:02.800 you want to look at that alignment of values, whatever of, you know, what they're asking you

00:09:07.140 to do. And so, and by the way, I just want to make this clear because sometimes one time somebody

00:09:12.300 asked me, so wait a minute, like our only goal is commitment. No, like you're going to have

00:09:17.120 compliance as a part of leadership. Not everybody's going to like you. A leader isn't meant to be liked

00:09:22.640 by everybody anyway. And not everybody's always going to agree with what you have to say or what

00:09:28.440 you need to get done, right? By default in leadership, you need to make difficult decisions

00:09:33.960 that people are not universally going to agree with. So despite what popular leadership tropes

00:09:40.160 are out there, you know, effective leadership is not just about having minions who are wholeheartedly

00:09:45.140 committed to you. Like compliance is going to be a part of it. Commitment's going to be a part of

00:09:50.520 it. No, there's no magic ratio. It's just saying based on the influence tactics you utilize

00:09:55.640 as a leader, based on the power that you leverage, and there are good examples of use of power and

00:10:01.660 poor examples of that, just like anything, there's a duality. You are more likely to lead to this,

00:10:06.980 some of these scenarios. And you highlighted a few of those examples before. I'll give one more.

00:10:12.100 A pressure tactic for, you know, somebody in their job, a certain person might lead to compliance.

00:10:19.880 They're just like, shit, all right, this is what I'm gonna have to get done. Or for some,

00:10:23.780 it might feel like they're being pushed over the edge and even lead to resistance. Like,

00:10:27.380 hey, you have to get X done by X deadline. Otherwise, you're not going to get this promotion

00:10:32.680 or your pay rate, like whatever it is. For me and for you, like we had pressure tactics in the form of

00:10:38.500 deadlines for our books, right? So for other people, a pressure tactic that can lead to commitment

00:10:44.140 full on, right? Like there are some people that need some hard tactics and they're still going to feel

00:10:48.680 committed to it. And other people, again, going against the one size fits all nature of leadership

00:10:53.520 that we've been sold, it's going to lead to resistance. So you got to know your audience.

00:10:57.900 A lot of this comes down to your own political skill. And I don't mean political in terms of

00:11:01.280 like macro politics, just knowing how to deal with people, timing, and all these other aspects as well.

00:11:07.760 Yeah. I like what you're saying here because yeah, there are going to be times where it's,

00:11:12.520 I think about this in parenting. It's like, no, just clean your, you just have to clean your room.

00:11:17.440 Like, I'm not going to explain why and how it's going to, you know, apply for the next 80 years

00:11:23.640 of your life and how you're going to be a better person. Like, no, just clean your stinking room.

00:11:28.440 That's it. So, but I think there are probably ways, and this is what I'd like to unpack,

00:11:33.520 is that if you do as a leader have to get compliance with those who maybe are initially

00:11:39.280 resistant, what are some strategies for getting people to comply and maybe even start pushing

00:11:47.460 them over the edge of commitment? Sure. Yeah. So I think this goes, whenever we think about

00:11:52.140 complex questions like this, it's good to look at like mental models or heuristics.

00:11:56.160 Okay. Largely, we have to remember that, you know, you have to have tailored messaging to people,

00:12:02.400 which we know inherently. We hear like, know your audience, refine your communication,

00:12:06.020 but most people don't actually know how to do that. They don't actually think like,

00:12:10.340 all right, let me break this down strategically. Let me think of this individual. What are they

00:12:14.480 driven by? And in our framework, we have six primarily, primary drives. And a lot of this was

00:12:20.040 research that we've adapted from a gentleman named Antonio Damasio, who's a professor of cognitive

00:12:26.060 neuroscience at USC and then some other folks. But the way we look at it is broadly, broadly,

00:12:32.440 I can't say this enough because as you know, there's certain audiences that just want to take

00:12:35.580 things and run with it. People are driven by one of six things, right? A sense of adversity. And

00:12:40.560 trust me, I'll land the plane, but I just want to anchor this. There are some people that are

00:12:43.800 driven by adversity. They love this back against the wall. The best way to get me to do something

00:12:48.300 is to challenge me, whatever. There's a lot of options there. So I'll explain them briefly. And if

00:12:52.060 we need to go deeper, we can. There are some people like my wife who are driven more by themes of

00:12:57.180 unity, right? To get her to do something, if I can bring other people into it and this sense of

00:13:01.840 community and togetherness, it's almost always a win, right? And there were athletes like this as

00:13:07.560 well that I coached in the past. Like individual competition really didn't get them going. But if

00:13:11.740 I had linebackers versus linebackers, offense, defense, they're losing their minds or ready to

00:13:15.960 go. Then there's some people that are more security oriented. They need to have plans,

00:13:22.260 strategies. They want information as a security blanket. The best way to get them going

00:13:26.620 is to lay it out for them. Hey, I need this because of this. And that's going to help you

00:13:30.960 with this and bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. They want to see the whole thing laid out meta wise,

00:13:35.520 right? There's three of them right there. Then there are some that are really significance driven.

00:13:40.020 It's not an individual thing. It's like, I want to make a bigger impact. I want to change the way

00:13:45.040 blank is done. I want to leave a legacy. So being able to speak to that is a big thing.

00:13:50.840 Um, and then, you know, you can also look at, let's see, we, we talked about adversity. We

00:13:55.560 talked about, uh, I want to make sure I get these right. Yeah. We talked about adversity,

00:13:59.500 unity, security. We talked about significance. Another big one is like, think about how people

00:14:05.020 are just driven. Some people are like, there's loss aversion and then some people want to gain

00:14:09.240 something. So when you think about like on either ends of these spectrums, you also want to consider

00:14:14.220 like, all right, have I targeted these things appropriately? And then how am I delivering those?

00:14:19.800 And by the way, some people just want to think right now. And I'd like to know, like for you,

00:14:22.740 Ryan, what out of the ones that we've talked about so far, where do you even see yourself? If any,

00:14:29.000 if any whatsoever, where do you see yourself? I, I tend to like adversity. I would say adversity

00:14:34.720 is a big thing for me, overcoming that, uh, and significance, the weight of what we're doing.

00:14:39.760 I would say based on the list you gave me so far, it would be those two things, overcoming adversity

00:14:44.160 and the weight, the significance of what we're doing. So then think about this too. Think about this,

00:14:48.920 like right now, how, like, how does that manifest when somebody tries to get you to do something?

00:14:55.720 Uh, when you do something that I think is in the best interest of the movement, or maybe be a little

00:15:01.240 bit more specific with that. Yeah. Just like if you, like, if you feel like you're just like not

00:15:04.920 committed to something or compliant, like what is something that's going to move the needle? Like

00:15:08.480 put it this way. We know that based on what you told me, me speaking to unity and all that isn't

00:15:13.500 really going to be that, you know, you have to think about like, all right, well, no, man, like I,

00:15:17.400 I like hard things and I like things that I feel like are going to leave an aftertaste and make a

00:15:21.240 bigger difference. So you think about like, uh, what, what wouldn't work to get more clarity about

00:15:27.340 what would. So if I say adversity, like I, and man, I've followed you for a while. I know right off

00:15:32.600 the bat, like, cause if you think about somebody that's adversity driven, this is somebody that like,

00:15:36.880 but during periods of hardship, do you want to be around a lot of other people? Or do you kind of like

00:15:40.760 to go into your shell, figure some shit out. And you're maybe a little bit of a rogue or a

00:15:44.600 Wolverine. I would say more of that maybe even to a fault is that I don't really include a whole

00:15:51.500 lot of people. I just get my head down and get to work. And so you think about that, right? You

00:15:55.600 create an environment that's, that's conducive to that. You have to think about creating an

00:15:59.720 environment that's conducive to that. Now, another thing I think of just to get back on track of these

00:16:03.740 six, there's achievement. So there are some people that like, Hey, they'd rather go to bed. Like

00:16:08.520 they're going to bed unhappy and waking up unhappy every day. If they feel like they haven't moved a

00:16:13.420 needle, whether that's writing their 500 words, putting a hundred more dollars in the bank account,

00:16:18.340 whatever that is. Like they, they always feel like I've got to push myself further.

00:16:22.400 You know, I'm a lifelong learner, you know, all those kinds of things. Does that one make sense?

00:16:27.080 It makes, it, it makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me personally. You know, like we even,

00:16:31.460 you even asked me about the book. You're like, how do you feel about that? I'm like,

00:16:34.700 eh, fine, whatever. Like the book is just part of the deal. It's, it's, it, it's not like a thing

00:16:40.800 that I'm going to celebrate necessarily. Sure. Yeah. You're not going to define yourself by it.

00:16:44.640 And then the last one is service. These are people that they just want to make like, uh, I would look

00:16:49.200 at my sister-in-law. She's a nurse. Like if she wasn't a nurse, she'd be in something else like

00:16:53.580 humanitarian work. It's gotta be service. Like she fostering just healthy relationships and giving to

00:16:59.980 others, even to the point, sometimes to a bit of unhealthy self-sacrifice is the most important

00:17:04.740 thing. And like anything, looking at these drives, everything has a strength and a snare. There's no

00:17:10.200 like one that's the best, but point being, whether I was leading 150 athletes in a group or whether

00:17:15.380 I'm invited to speak somewhere and do an in-service, I have to try to tease out like, what do these people

00:17:19.740 care about collectively, individually? How can I do that through, you know, just certain questions or

00:17:24.480 getting into the weeds with them. And you start to see it. I mean, if you have somebody on your

00:17:28.240 podcast and they're always talking about like doing the hard things, overcoming hardship,

00:17:32.580 you know, back up against the wall, like the words that people will use. So listening plays a huge

00:17:36.540 role in this kind of give you insight. So drives are one of the ways that you have to be able to

00:17:40.900 better target your message. And then the other thing is you have to think about different influence

00:17:44.360 tactics. All right. So I'll give you a real practice on that. Before you get to the influence

00:17:49.060 tactics, I want to, I want to ask a question that a couple that are popping up for me that are,

00:17:54.340 that are more maybe more confronting that I haven't really been addressed before. And that is

00:18:01.380 the amount of time and effort it takes to learn these styles, I think can be a deterrent, right?

00:18:10.080 So my question is, do you try to build a team that is, that communicates or is oriented in one or a few

00:18:19.500 of these the same way you are? Or because then at less time, like, I don't have to worry about these

00:18:25.960 people that want to, they want security. Like, I don't have to worry about that because I don't

00:18:29.780 have any security type people on my team. Or is it better to find and build a team that represents

00:18:36.540 a broad swath of these personalities? Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, look at, I mean,

00:18:41.000 it's, it's like that old book, team of rivals that talked about the political genius of Abraham Lincoln,

00:18:45.600 right? One of the smartest things he did that showcased his political savvy was he literally

00:18:50.380 brought people into his cabinet that were vastly different than him in terms of perspectives.

00:18:54.960 A lot of them didn't even agree. Like they took a devil's advocate approach. So you ask any,

00:18:59.920 you ask anybody this question, people are going to have their own opinions, but the vast majority of

00:19:04.480 actual leadership research that is rooted in the real world is going to tell you that you want a team

00:19:09.780 that represents like a mix of divergent and diverse views, you know, because, and, and by the way,

00:19:15.940 the point is not to coddle a certain drive. The point is just, you have to have an understanding

00:19:21.460 of different things that make people tick. No leader is going to be effective in any context if

00:19:26.740 they don't have a base understanding of what makes people tick, or at least the base like idea of,

00:19:33.180 Hey, where might I be the problem? And where is my voice? Like, uh, why am I not being heard?

00:19:37.660 Like, so for example, on my team, right? My wife is a lot more. And if you want to zoom out further

00:19:43.200 and you say F the drives, okay, let's say we say that, well, then you at least have to be

00:19:46.800 understanding of communication styles. And there's four broad ones. Like I'm a realist.

00:19:51.720 I communicate in a very straightforward way, right? Time is of the essence of me. And also it's

00:19:56.720 respectful. If I'm like, let's say I'm very curt with you, Ryan, it's actually a sign of respect.

00:20:01.880 I'm not going to waste your time. I'm not going to bullshit you. And therefore you're going to get,

00:20:06.060 I'm like Dutch. I'm like a Dutch person that way, but I'm also have a relative, uh, like I'm a

00:20:11.400 relator. Like there's going to be metaphors. There's going to be analogies. Cause I got to

00:20:14.740 get on your level. My wife on the other hand is almost pure, like analyst, you know? And then

00:20:19.840 another person on our team is very empathizer. Like Becca will tell you a parable and this and that.

00:20:25.120 So there are certain projects that are better fits for certain parts of us. And even in terms of

00:20:29.120 growing our business, there are certain brand voices that are going to help us grow better than

00:20:34.000 others, but largely, right. You're still going to sink a different way. So yes, people are not

00:20:38.620 always going to be able to like assess in a room, like a savant. Okay. I know all these drives or I

00:20:43.440 know all this, but people do have to have a base understanding, which has been not some, which has

00:20:48.400 been something the leadership, like I would say literature has done a real poor job of, of

00:20:52.640 understanding what makes people tick and at least how to adapt to that at some base level.

00:20:56.540 I think this is valuable, especially what you just said, the communication style. So I wrote

00:21:00.720 realist, uh, uh, relator relator. Okay. I wrote relative. So relator analyst empathize because you

00:21:08.060 said it perfectly. You said with a realist, you know, somebody who's straight to the point, gets to

00:21:11.980 it, gets in and out. You're trying to respect that person, but somebody who's an empathizer might look

00:21:17.580 at that and, and judge it as being disrespectful because you're just down to the brass tacks and you're

00:21:24.420 not taking into consideration the way somebody might feel or outside circumstances or scenarios.

00:21:30.000 So you might think it's respectful and they might actually believe that you're being disrespectful.

00:21:34.520 So I could see how this would be valuable to at least know. So you can deal with people effectively.

00:21:39.800 Well, and give this as an example, right? So I was working with a gentleman who, uh,

00:21:43.940 who he came from Switzerland and he was just a buddy of mine who was an investment banker was like,

00:21:48.220 Hey, when you meet with him, just remember, like, they like to have a bit of small talk first,

00:21:52.240 like don't launch into brass tacks. I can't do it. Well, I hear you. Right. And you don't always

00:21:58.220 have to be right. Like this is again, why like leadership is not about one person. It's about

00:22:02.900 having a team and a process that, you know, it's, it's multifactorial. I think that we forget that

00:22:07.500 too. We think leadership is about one person, that mythical figure it's not, it's a, it's a process

00:22:13.100 of influence that is integrated between yeah, a leader, but also the other shareholders and

00:22:18.820 stakeholders. So in this, in this case, even though, you know, I was time pressed and I didn't

00:22:23.420 want to do it either. What I had to do is just reframe. Like, it doesn't mean I have to be like,

00:22:27.800 Hey, how are you? Blah, blah, blah. It just means the guy kind of wanted to bullshit and get to know

00:22:32.740 each other for about five to 10 minutes before we got in. Well, I can do that. You know what I mean?

00:22:37.780 Like, it's just kind of like, there's plenty of quarterbacks out there that want to fucking throw

00:22:41.020 the long ball, but every now and then you've got to have a check down or you got to do something in the

00:22:44.680 flat or you've got to hand it off. So like, that's how we don't always get what we want to do as

00:22:48.820 leaders, but you have to think like, this is why it's chess, not checkers, you know? So don't always

00:22:53.060 think that like, and I'm for any listeners, when you're like, I don't want to do the empathizer

00:22:57.380 thing, or I don't want to do this. And I don't want to do that. Nobody's telling you to go all the

00:23:01.600 way that direction, try to borrow an element or two of that and think, what can I do it? Like,

00:23:06.220 if I don't want to be an analyst, like an analytical communicator, great. You don't need to come

00:23:10.560 with an effing spreadsheet of all the data and metrics. Just speak to some aspect of what that

00:23:15.460 other person might care about. Because when you give ground, you get ground. I think where this

00:23:20.280 applies perfectly for a lot of guys listening is, imagine approaching a woman, you know, this

00:23:26.120 beautiful woman who clearly you want to have some sort of relationship with, at least a conversation,

00:23:31.020 right? Yeah. And you go up there and you give your line or whatever, and she's not interested in the

00:23:37.700 line or the way that you're delivering it. She wants to have this small or whatever. Like, you're

00:23:44.240 not going to say, well, that's just the way I am. Like, screw her. Exactly. You're going to say,

00:23:48.140 okay, well, what, like, let me look at my tool bag. Let me look at my arsenal. Cause this woman's

00:23:52.520 beautiful. I want to, I want to have a conversation with her. Maybe I need to try a different tactic.

00:23:57.380 I think it makes sense in that realm. But then when we start thinking about the business side of

00:24:01.240 things, we're like, they should just, if they don't like it, they should just deal with it. And

00:24:05.320 zero F's given what you hear a lot. And that's a ridiculous notion.

00:24:09.420 Yeah, no question. And it's a great example. And, and this is where you just think about

00:24:12.880 leadership in any area of life, right? Like even in different phases of being a parent or whatever.

00:24:17.360 And by the way, just most people have to ask themselves, like, where might I be the problem?

00:24:21.180 You know, because it doesn't like, you can deal with the world as you'd like it to be,

00:24:24.980 or you can learn to deal with the world as it is. And I feel like the people that are always,

00:24:29.360 always like, well, I shouldn't have to do this. I shouldn't have to do that. Great. That's the

00:24:33.020 world as you'd like it to be. But the world as it is dictates and necessitates that you're going to

00:24:37.920 have to figure some things out because leadership is also a constant negotiation that is dependent

00:24:43.700 on some form of connection, you know? And, and I just think that the origin of this, not to nerd

00:24:48.820 out on it, but like, I'm in this portion of my next book right now is like, why are we so

00:24:53.940 effed in this area? Well, think about the myths that we've been fed. Almost every leadership book

00:24:59.100 does talk about, you know, it's, it's a mythological, big charismatic figure or

00:25:03.340 dauntless leader who does this and does that, or it's these leadership styles. You got to be

00:25:07.480 transformational. You got to be, everything is predicated towards you better fit this model

00:25:11.780 or fit this representation, or you're not worth this shit. And so we buy into that and we don't

00:25:16.720 know how to flex and be socially agile. So is that the greatest problem with buying into that,

00:25:22.840 that dogma of, of a certain leader is that we then become too rigid and can't flex and

00:25:30.000 maneuver the way that we should to be able to lead the team effectively? Is that, is that

00:25:33.600 the problem? Cause I certainly, Oh, go ahead. When I look at, well, I was just going to say,

00:25:37.360 when I look at it, you know, read a leadership book, for example, I don't resonate with everything,

00:25:41.160 but there are certain characteristics that seem pretty clear to me that most leaders possess.

00:25:47.160 Sure. Yeah. Well, let me answer the first question first. No, it's not the only problem.

00:25:51.080 And we can dive into this later if you want, there's problems associated with, as you and I

00:25:55.300 were talking about before, imposter phenomenon, burnout that inherently lead to people feeling

00:25:59.820 like, well, I don't have what it takes, whether they have skeletons in their closet or they feel

00:26:03.880 like because they've, they didn't go to a certain school or they were divorced or they have this,

00:26:07.880 they're just like not good enough. You know, that this idea of like not, and I toyed with this idea

00:26:13.100 of a title for the book originally, like imperfect leadership. I'm like to make it look like I'm

00:26:18.400 perfect in parentheses because there is this. And like, people feel like that. I have a friend

00:26:22.480 that he's like, I, he grew up as a drug dealer and now he's just like this phenomenal father,

00:26:27.020 business owner, but he's got a lot of residual, like imposter stuff and self-limiting beliefs.

00:26:31.760 Cause he like, can't escape that past. I'm like, dude, like, I'm not going to get hokey on you,

00:26:35.560 but those are the things that led you to be able to like, correct this. Like that just is what it is.

00:26:40.100 You don't have to fit a mythical certain amount of traits. Now to your second point.

00:26:43.620 Yes. Um, there are certain things that resonate, but let's look at this real quick, right?

00:26:49.520 When there are no, there is no list of traits or special mixture of leadership traits that

00:26:55.660 guarantees successful leadership in every situation. It is situational. It's contextual.

00:27:02.380 There's cultural chaos context. What makes a great leader coach, whatever in Western country,

00:27:08.520 like let's say the United States is not going to be a great prime minister in Japan and vice versa.

00:27:13.320 Now, so like whether it's being humble or honest or risk seeking or this or that those, those,

00:27:20.980 yeah, to, to some people like this seems like, Oh, these are all great things. So it is like a

00:27:25.480 pioneering spirit and a can do attitude, but there are other cultures that don't want those things.

00:27:29.860 So the biggest trait that actually has crossover, if there was something, if you press me and you're

00:27:34.000 like, dude, I'm calling bullshit. There are some static traits that are effective across culture.

00:27:38.660 Sure. You know what they are being comfortable with change, having like being non risk

00:27:43.300 averse. Cause that's the nature of it. Tolerance of ambiguity, being able to be persistent,

00:27:48.240 but no, like just being kind, humble, this and that is not going to be like, I'm sorry. I don't

00:27:54.400 give a shit. If my brain surgeon is sitting there being like, Oh, you know what? I'm just kind of

00:27:58.820 okay. I'm in it just to make a difference. I want that person to be like, I am the number one

00:28:03.640 best person that is going to get this shit out of your head and save your life. Like those borderline

00:28:08.800 narcissistic traits can be a perfect fit in some situations and not in others.

00:28:13.820 Yeah. I, I get all that. I'm, I'm at a loss for work. Cause that makes complete sense to me.

00:28:18.160 I do have a question to go back though, to what we were talking about with the, the,

00:28:22.020 the personality types, if you will, or the drivers, I think you called them adversity,

00:28:26.680 uni security, that sort of thing. Yep. I, in, in the past, I don't, I don't necessarily agree with

00:28:32.120 this, but I want to address it. And I'd be curious in your take is, do you ever hear from people who

00:28:38.360 say, well, you know, when you're changing yourself to fit that, is that a form of manipulation

00:28:45.700 that, that brings some negative ramifications with it?

00:28:50.220 Great question. Uh, so I love the term manipulation, manipulate, right? Because if we

00:28:55.980 first like meanings are not in words, they're in people, but at the same time, we need to know what

00:29:00.980 words mean. If you look at, what do you mean by that? Hold on. What do you mean by meanings are

00:29:04.440 not in words, but, but in people think about that, right? Like we, we tend to define things based on

00:29:10.280 our own perception and interpretation of those things. And then we give it a word based on some

00:29:16.040 agreed upon perception of it. Hell yeah. You know what I mean? Like certain, certain phrases that I use

00:29:22.060 might be anathema to somebody from a different culture. You know, they have no idea like, and certain,

00:29:28.180 there are certain words that other cultures can use that we can't use, you know, like

00:29:31.340 even look at manipulate. It's a, it's a very good example. That term has a negative connotation with

00:29:36.920 it pretty, pretty much ubiquitously. But if you look up the, like, if you literally search,

00:29:41.680 go to Google and search manipulate, you're going to see how it talks about to wield a tool in a

00:29:47.580 skillful manner. There's more than one definition, you know?

00:29:50.720 Well, the word that gets brought up in this one's going to be controversial, but I remember when I was a

00:29:55.500 kid, if a friend, like you weren't saying a meme, but a friend was doing something that was weird or

00:30:01.580 you didn't like, you'd say that's gay, like you're gay or that's gay. Yeah. Clearly we didn't mean he

00:30:07.020 was homosexual, you know, but that's what we would say. But then you say it in another context and it's

00:30:12.720 completely different or the use of the N word in certain groups. That's okay for you and me to say

00:30:18.640 it. That's not okay. Not when you, and you look at the example of, cause you bring up a good point.

00:30:23.200 Like I'm a huge music guy and I'll listen to everything from Frank Sinatra to B.B. Kang to

00:30:27.780 Eminem. Right. So, but you look at hip hop, it's a great example of that. There are certain things

00:30:32.400 that have been talked about or said in hip hop culture that, you know, means something very

00:30:36.900 specifically. And, and Eminem talks about these things like, cause people like to bring up his

00:30:40.560 old lyrics and all that. And he's like, listen, like I'm the daughter. I mean, I'm the father of,

00:30:44.900 of two, three girl adopted girls. Like this, this is what I meant then this is the context. And,

00:30:51.160 and even, you know, if he brought Elton John out to talk about like, no, like Eminem is not homophobic

00:30:55.740 and whatever. So, but like you look at that even in the leadership context, right? Like power,

00:31:02.240 manipulate, influence. They're all these dirty perceived terms when in reality, they're not,

00:31:09.420 you cannot talk about leadership without talking about power and influence and they're reciprocal.

00:31:14.880 And everybody has some level of these things. And this is why I wanted to write the book. Cause I

00:31:20.220 got tired. Uh, I never fit these modes or models. I'm around a bunch of people that are great people

00:31:26.220 and they, they feel like they're not good enough. And I sit here like we have completely bastardized

00:31:31.080 some of these terms and guess what? There are actually bad people out there leveraging shit that

00:31:36.700 we don't even talk about and understand because of how these terms or phrases or tactics have been

00:31:41.960 stigmatized. And so to try to stop that is the main goal. So that's what I mean by words are not

00:31:47.540 just, uh, meanings are not just in words. They're in people. There's context to them. Does that help

00:31:52.580 answer that more effectively? It does. It does. And I think that's why conversations like this are so

00:31:56.920 important because we can take abstract ideas or even misunderstood words or words that I think mean

00:32:04.880 one thing and you mean something else. And we can actually come to the table in a significant way.

00:32:09.580 I think what ends up happening is we might disagree on something initially. And then we talk about it

00:32:14.920 and we'd come to the conclusion. Oh, we're, we're actually closer in our, in our perspective,

00:32:20.420 in our viewpoint than we thought we were just using different words to communicate it.

00:32:23.840 No question. And this is why, you know, we say communication's a minefield, like the baseline

00:32:28.180 of communication is misunderstanding. Now just think about this for me. Cause this is more important

00:32:33.400 than like most listeners will realize. I understand like we sell at our company, like an unsexy topic,

00:32:38.760 communication, like that people don't even know typically what that means. Yet we do know that

00:32:43.840 it can cost us poor communication, like, uh, our reputation results, respect, all these things.

00:32:48.780 But like, I can't read your mind, Ryan, you can't read mine. Nobody can read each other's.

00:32:53.740 And so what's funny is we get into disagreements in this world. And we think that like, all right,

00:32:59.300 well, that person's an idiot. That person's bad. That person's stupid. That person's this. And you're

00:33:02.780 like, no, wait a minute. I actually don't know that person, nor do I know how they think,

00:33:07.660 because I haven't used communication as the tool it is to bridge that gap. I think people forget

00:33:13.940 sometimes they think that like, we're all just supposed to understand inherently what we mean.

00:33:19.300 And it's like, no, like you can't like the baseline is misunderstanding. So you actually

00:33:24.680 have to use the, like, you have to find a way, whether it's through the words, through the mediums

00:33:29.220 and the channels and all these things to get that a point across. And you have to just chill out,

00:33:33.440 like quit being so upset when somebody disagrees with you. That's the baseline. Congratulations.

00:33:39.180 You're a human being. Now, how well you like navigate that is dependent on, you know, or says

00:33:45.620 a lot about your character. If you just get offended and mad and lose your shit and shut it down. Okay.

00:33:51.120 Well, it takes no intelligence to do that. It takes no intelligence to do that. And to be fair,

00:33:56.860 I do believe that is part of some people's plan is they don't actually want to understand.

00:34:02.040 They're not interested in understanding or coming to the table. They're interested in

00:34:06.080 dehumanizing. They're interested in villainizing and they're interested in playing the political

00:34:11.020 gamesmanship. And, and we have to be aware of that too, that some people just aren't interested

00:34:17.980 in progress. They're interested in making you the enemy. No question. And this is why, like, again,

00:34:23.480 we, you know, my life's work now is dedicated towards helping people understand various influence

00:34:29.560 tactics and power dynamics and how to be more literate in those. So you can see the game,

00:34:34.200 you know, and, and we're dedicating a lot of time to this stuff off the backs of work of great people

00:34:39.480 like Robert Cialdini, Gary Uckel, of course, Robert Green, who I know you've interviewed,

00:34:43.540 I've interviewed as well. And it meant a lot, especially because most people are let down by

00:34:47.100 their heroes. When he, you know, he's saying to me, he's like, wow, you're really like,

00:34:51.040 you're taking this a step further and teaching people, you know, deeper roots of this stuff to be

00:34:56.580 able to enact in their daily life. And so it was cool to get his backing, but like, yeah, because

00:35:00.580 if you don't understand the game that you're a part of, none of the moves make sense. And again,

00:35:05.140 it doesn't help that we have black and white thinking in this world, instead of people

00:35:09.320 understanding that like, no, this is all gray area. You better invest in learning a bit more about it.

00:35:15.220 Man, let me hit pause and take a quick break from the conversation. I just need to ask,

00:35:20.160 are you ready for whatever life has to throw at you? Now I know through experience,

00:35:24.600 how easy it is to get knocked off our feet, whether by our own doing or at the hands of

00:35:29.960 something completely outside of our control. When you sign up for our 30 days to battle ready course,

00:35:34.900 you're going to unlock access to a series of emails to help you gear up for what life has to

00:35:40.220 offer. In fact, if you do the free program, not only will you be able to handle challenging

00:35:45.000 circumstances, but you'll be able to ward them off before they even happen. And I'm going to teach

00:35:49.740 you the exact systems I and thousands of other men have used to achieve massive results in their

00:35:55.220 lives. And it all starts with the next 30 days, 30 days to improve the next 30 years of your life.

00:36:02.260 You can sign up now at order a man.com slash battle ready. Again, that's order a man.com slash

00:36:08.160 battle ready. Do that right after the conversation for now, we'll get back to it with Brett.

00:36:11.880 Well, and it's also interesting how many people care about this, but they'll say they don't. So

00:36:17.800 an example is when we get ready for the day, we all decide what pants we're going to put on,

00:36:24.520 what pair of shoes we're going to put on, what shirt, how you're going to do your hair,

00:36:28.100 whether you're going to shave or not. Like everybody's making those decisions about their

00:36:31.600 physical appearance based on what they believe that will help them with that day. But you'll hear

00:36:36.880 all the guys are like, physical appearance doesn't matter, bro. You got dressed today.

00:36:40.360 You brushed your teeth. You did your hair. Like you wouldn't have done any of that if you didn't

00:36:45.080 think that mattered. Like I did my hair like this. I put this shirt on. My office looks like this for

00:36:50.380 a certain, I'm trying to communicate something. It's hilarious how many people fight against

00:36:55.520 effective communication in this case, nonverbal. Yeah. Well, it drives me nuts to that point too.

00:37:00.360 I mean, I came from a profession in human performance where when I stepped out and started crossing over

00:37:05.360 more into the leadership landscape, there were some purists, self-proclaimed purists that were like,

00:37:09.760 oh, real, real strength coaches, whatever, don't have a brand. They don't have this, you know,

00:37:14.080 like we're not in it for ourselves. And I remind them of the, I think it was Amos Tversky or Daniel

00:37:18.980 Kahneman. They were like, the absence of a feature is still a feature. So I'm like, you know, you know

00:37:23.700 that you by default of railing against people that do a certain thing is you branding yourself

00:37:29.900 as the person who doesn't believe this, right? Like, right. And if you're like, I don't care what

00:37:34.560 people think. Congratulations. You're, you're branding yourself as that. And so that's another thing we

00:37:38.680 touch on in the book is like impression management is absolutely a form of communication. Some people

00:37:44.560 it's moral virtue, right? This is what's called an exemplification impression management tactic.

00:37:51.400 Well, I do this for the right reasons and I'm doing this for this, right? Then there's other

00:37:56.020 people that use what's called a supplication tactic. And that's all, I'm just, you know,

00:38:00.900 I don't know much. I'm the dumbest guy in the room and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:38:04.220 And so there's all these tactics and we can get into more if you want, but everything is

00:38:08.960 communication. It's whether you pick up on it or not. And yes, the communicator, right? The,

00:38:15.040 the, the onus of responsibility is on the communicator. I, I, I guess I hear too often

00:38:19.960 from men who are like, well, they didn't understand. Right. Because you didn't communicate

00:38:24.360 it in a way that was understandable. No, no, no, no, no, no. I did. I did. I didn't get it. Like

00:38:28.800 then look, you can talk about, this goes back to what you're saying. You can deal in reality or not.

00:38:34.120 So if you want to communicate a message, it's not their responsibility to receive the message.

00:38:39.080 It's your responsibility to communicate it in a way they can receive it. And if you're interested

00:38:44.000 in doing that, don't get upset when they don't get it. Well, and better yet, just don't step into

00:38:47.860 leadership, right? Leadership by definition, again, like is a reciprocal process of influence.

00:38:53.780 And, you know, to take this even further, right, this ties into something that people need to be aware of.

00:38:58.360 And I hope this is helpful for your listeners to give it a name, the mere exposure effect.

00:39:03.040 Now, all this speaks to is people are more likely to be convinced by things

00:39:06.340 that seem familiar to them, right? Like when things are familiar, they're perceived as less

00:39:11.240 threatening. Well, for things to be familiar, they've got to be repeated and they've got to be

00:39:15.920 repeat, not only repeated, but also showcased in a variety of ways. So, you know, and this goes into

00:39:20.820 just, I mean, you could, something as simple as speaking to an audience at a presentation or social

00:39:25.240 media. You can, you can sit there and tweet out or do whatever you want, but the use of pictures and

00:39:29.880 like, there's so many ways to get your message across, but at the very least you have to make

00:39:34.400 it sticky and you have to be repetitive. I think the best advice I ever got is right when you're

00:39:39.080 about to lose your mind. Cause you feel like you said something too many times. The majority of people

00:39:43.580 are just really hearing it once, you know, the majority of the time they're just, and this has

00:39:50.480 to a degree, this took an effect on my, an impact on my mental health because like running a business.

00:39:56.440 And I know you get this, you know, in that context, there are certain times where I think like, all

00:40:01.840 right, you got to walk the line between being ardent and consistent and locked in with your message.

00:40:06.860 But then there's other times where I'm like, all right, I don't want to like burn it out.

00:40:10.620 And I know there's gotta be some people that lose their mind if I'm just saying this and this and

00:40:13.960 this all the time, but you got to realize like, who cares? Like the point is, is you need to be

00:40:17.680 consistent in that. So the mere exposure effect is really important. Secondly, if people realize,

00:40:23.840 cause I don't say communication as a minefield, just as a soundbite that you, you know, I like

00:40:28.400 you and I are talking right now, right? That message leads my mouth. How you interpret it is

00:40:34.500 dependent on once again, the medium here, we're, we're kind of face-to-face virtually, right?

00:40:39.760 But if we're saying something over email, that is a lower context, rich medium, the amount of

00:40:45.180 social media, like people want to argue over Twitter. So by default, you're taking shitty

00:40:49.900 communicators that aren't trained in any of this using the lowest context medium there is

00:40:55.260 to try to argue about this stuff. And we wonder like, Oh, why is there friction? But there's at

00:41:00.980 least, and then you look at timing, you look at, there are 10 to 12 different things that can muddy

00:41:07.020 a message. And you don't think you're going to have to repeat it. Get real. Yeah. It's just a

00:41:11.320 reality.

00:41:13.060 Let's talk about this thing that you've alluded to a couple of times with the idea of skeleton in

00:41:18.120 your closet. Yeah.

00:41:19.480 Because I think that hinders a lot of people and it has me, you know, like there's things that I've

00:41:24.320 been cautious of not sharing because of how it might reflect. And I've actually had personal

00:41:28.660 experience over the past several months of disclosing my alcoholism and my, my alcohol use.

00:41:34.620 I don't know if you saw that or not, but I didn't, but that's awesome that you did that.

00:41:39.040 Well, I was concerned. I mean, I was like, man, if I share this, like it's going to undermine my

00:41:43.540 leadership, it's going to affect negatively my business. And the exact opposite happened.

00:41:48.580 I was shocked. Like it's, it's, it's gotten me closer to people. I'm deep. I have deeper

00:41:54.380 connections. I have people who have opened up about things that they have never opened up about

00:41:58.720 to anyone else precisely because I was willing to share the skeletons in the closet,

00:42:03.720 not continue to hide them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not, I'm not, well, one,

00:42:07.760 right. Did, did, so that did surprise you. I mean, how did that make you feel?

00:42:12.060 Yeah, it was, it was shocking. I was shocked. I, I was, I was preparing for mass exodus,

00:42:18.120 but I, but I did it because I wanted to be an integrity, but knowing that it was going to go

00:42:23.660 South really quickly and it did it. Yeah. Well, this is why, and, and I'm not speaking at you with

00:42:29.580 this. I'm like more speaking alongside you. Cause I know you get this. This is why you shouldn't be

00:42:33.900 shocked. Although I totally get that because when I opened up in my book, my first book about

00:42:38.200 stuff, like I was the same thing. Right. But what I've come to learn now, and I know what,

00:42:41.720 you know, inherently is, so when you look at different forms of power and I won't go into

00:42:46.980 the weeds here, unless you want me to, I'll just, but there's one form of power base called a referent

00:42:51.760 power that is all about relatability, right? It's a kind of power, like a mentor that you have a great

00:42:56.780 relationship would have with you. Like people that are like you and that, you know, you just

00:43:00.740 have a connection with it's the most important power base there is in today's society. Like even

00:43:06.160 if you have access to certain resources and information and whatever, none of that trumps

00:43:11.080 being somebody who is liked and respected like that, that is a skeleton key that will get you into

00:43:16.220 more places than just being rich would or something like that. All right. So when you, when you open up,

00:43:23.260 you know, this window and you're more open about these things and people see you as

00:43:26.500 relatable and you remove this veil of the expert, right? That increases your referent power.

00:43:32.340 People are like, yo, like I like, now you have also seen, I know because you can, you can open up

00:43:37.480 social media and always tell when somebody is doing this. There are certain people that try to leverage

00:43:41.980 that way too much. It's always like, you know, it's like the suffering Olympics where they want to

00:43:47.540 tell every dark secret about their past and this and that's like, okay, you know, they're always trying

00:43:51.920 to pose themselves as like the victim or the savior or the, this, or that they're trying to appeal to

00:43:56.320 so many people that it's like, all right, dude, at some point you actually have to know something

00:44:00.480 here. You can't just try to lean on like the, the emotions of the masses to, to give you this power,

00:44:06.260 but by and large, just being somebody that's relatable and having gone through shit is going

00:44:10.420 to draw people to you. So I just wanted to address that real quick. Um, and then we can talk more

00:44:15.680 about the skeletons in the closet and all those things, or do you want me to dive into that now?

00:44:19.200 Yeah. I guess more specifically, my question around that would be how does an individual who

00:44:24.100 knows and is intimately familiar with the skeletons in their closet, be able to share, uh, in a

00:44:32.540 significant way, in a way that will create a positive and net gain, as opposed to it be, you know,

00:44:39.240 something that undermines their leadership. Sure. Yeah. Like I would categorize this as like the

00:44:44.540 selective and strategic self-disclosure. Like how do I know what to share? When to share it?

00:44:51.200 How am I, am I hitting that? Am I understanding the question correctly?

00:44:54.140 What did you, I like the term you always use great terms, selective and something

00:44:58.380 strategic, selective and strategic self-disclosure. Now I appreciate that. I think that's just,

00:45:03.260 uh, the repetition of having run so many workshops on this, you know, you want to codify those for

00:45:08.400 people. So I appreciate that feedback. Well, it helps us remember it. So that's powerful for me.

00:45:12.440 Yeah. And, and so you might hate me for this answer, but I do want to go back to just something

00:45:17.300 that ties into the beginning. Part of what I know to share and part of what we coach other people to

00:45:22.900 share still does come back to them, taking the inventory of their audience or intended audience,

00:45:27.960 right? So like even knowing what to share in my future book, like I know that my audience has

00:45:32.940 certain drives. A lot of my audience is adversity drives. A lot of my audience has, you know, a unity

00:45:38.840 and achievement drive and whatever. So by default, I know the audience is going to react fairly

00:45:43.620 positively. Not everybody, of course, there's going to be the one-star Amazon reviews and whatever,

00:45:48.300 but like people want to feel connection. I mean, by, by and large, the number one thing that unites us

00:45:53.000 as human beings is a, an element of shared struggle, you know? And so how, how far to go?

00:45:59.160 I think you gauge that just cause I'm very big against one size fits all answers. You gauge that by

00:46:04.760 leaving breadcrumbs, right? Like you think of like, all right, what is the one thing I want people to

00:46:09.460 know, right? And then how can I kind of lead them to this? Like you don't necessarily want to like,

00:46:15.080 let's say, and, and sorry if this is heavy, but let's say in the past I had been, um, there had been

00:46:21.000 like sexual abuse in my past. And for a lot of people there are, right? Well, if I've not shared

00:46:26.760 anything at, at all about myself ever, any kind of struggles, whatever, like just to come out and be

00:46:33.200 like, I've been sexually abused. That's kind of a lot for people to process, especially if you just,

00:46:39.280 you've never shared anything like that before, right? Now, if you're somebody that, you know,

00:46:44.580 you've, you've kind of, and I don't want to use a term in a negative context, but you've kind of

00:46:47.480 groomed your audience. Like they know you're an open individual. You've shared professional

00:46:50.880 struggles. You put other things out there, whatever. And then you kind of say, well, Hey,

00:46:55.280 here's the impetus of a lot of this. I've never talked about this before. Boom. That's not as much of a

00:47:00.560 shock. So I think you've got to look at your audience. I think you've got to assess your past

00:47:04.940 behaviors. How like, is this, have I ever shared anything before major or minor? And then what was

00:47:10.740 the reception of that and the feedback of that? I think that you, again, it comes down to like kind

00:47:15.080 of timing and also intent. Like, why are you sharing this? Where are you sharing this? You know,

00:47:21.100 again, if you're choosing a context, poor medium where you've shared that and you haven't really

00:47:25.220 talked about, like, that's why you started a business. And that's why you decided to start a

00:47:30.140 nonprofit for this. Or that's why you chose that. Like people need to connect the dots.

00:47:34.400 Like people don't want to, sorry, go ahead. No, keep, keep, keep going. I had another thought

00:47:39.260 on that. So keep going. Yeah. Just like help it make sense. Like when I talked about the fact that

00:47:43.660 I dealt with depression and I was like, when people ask me, like, why are you so obsessed with

00:47:47.220 communication and power dynamics? And I got asked this question last February. I go, listen, man,

00:47:52.520 like I nearly lost my life at the age of 15. And I spent a year of that life, my life with

00:47:58.620 basically a Machiavellian group of doctors and nurses who just like treated everybody like

00:48:03.580 symptoms. And I saw people die. And like, I've just met a lot of shitty people in my life.

00:48:07.740 And I also didn't understand like where I played a role because of a lack of literacy in these things

00:48:13.700 in making certain parts of my life harder than they needed to be. And so like, why would I not

00:48:18.500 share that stuff and have an interest in it? You know, but like just being able to tell them like,

00:48:22.900 all right, like, God, like I get why you shared that now. And also like that's connecting the dots

00:48:28.900 for people. So yeah, audience timing, the, the, where you're sharing it, make sure you bridge the

00:48:35.540 gap of the why. Yeah. All these things. Yeah. And by the way, if guys are listening and they want to

00:48:41.400 hear some of that story about when you were younger with that, that experience with those doctor,

00:48:45.580 we talked a lot about it in our previous podcasts. So they can definitely go back and listen to that one.

00:48:49.860 And I wanted to ask when, when you should not share, like why maybe you should not share when

00:48:55.780 you should not share. I was thinking about it with what I had just told you earlier with alcohol use.

00:49:00.560 I didn't like, I stopped drinking five, little over five months ago now, closer to six. And I didn't

00:49:09.420 share right when I stopped because I didn't feel like it would be appropriate for me to disclose that

00:49:15.460 when I wasn't actively on the path to fixing it. So I waited two or three months before I disclosed

00:49:22.280 that to our guys in the iron council, because I felt like it would be more powerful if I shared it

00:49:30.400 after I was already doing something about fixing the problem. Like I didn't feel, I didn't feel

00:49:36.060 right by saying, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm an alcoholic. So like, here I am. I was like, no, here was what I was

00:49:41.260 doing. And here's what I'm doing to fix it. I'm actively on the path, but when should you not share

00:49:45.420 or why should you not share? Yeah. I think that's a great example. Oh, let me give a narrative to,

00:49:50.240 to kind of help give principles to this and break it down. So there was an individual that had an

00:49:55.560 autistic son and he had applied for a job and he didn't, he didn't tell his soon to be boss about

00:50:02.000 this. And the reason it was important that he would have told him is he has to take his son to some

00:50:06.580 doctor's appointments weekly and, you know, things like that because of his autism, but he was scared.

00:50:12.440 He kept this in kind of what, you know, the Joe Harry window folks out there would call like the

00:50:15.820 hidden window, because he was scared. If he mentioned that, that his boss might perceive it

00:50:19.920 as like, Oh, you kind of come with complexity baggage. Right. And so he ended up getting the job

00:50:25.940 and he would kind of disappear for a relatively large swaths of time, two to three hours, you know,

00:50:31.080 here and there still get his work done and all that. But eventually his boss was like, dude,

00:50:33.860 where the hell are you going? Like you take the longest lunch breaks ever. Where are you going?

00:50:37.800 What are you doing? And the guy eventually just said, listen, I have a son. He's got special needs

00:50:42.800 and I have to do this. And the boss was like, well, why didn't you say anything? And he said,

00:50:45.680 well, I didn't want you to perceive it as blank, blank, blank. And the boss is like, it's fine.

00:50:49.620 You know, like we can work out the hours and take care of your son. And by the way, like the environment

00:50:55.920 we have here is conducive that you need to talk about those kinds of, now the guy knows, right?

00:51:00.900 So I think what people need to first do is audit. Let's say we had an audit.

00:51:04.800 Let me just add one thing in that. And I don't, I don't know the situation. I clearly, I don't know

00:51:09.860 that, but I think in that situation, it would still be, I would still maybe advise not to share

00:51:17.740 in an interview in that situation because they know now he's a good worker. So it's like, it's fine.

00:51:24.420 We'll take care of you because we know you're a good worker, but an interview process,

00:51:27.560 I don't know, man, you say it would be okay if I told you, but I don't really know if that's the

00:51:32.320 case. No question. No question. Right. And like, so just like anything, and when you put out advice

00:51:37.940 or stories, you can't make them reflective of every experience, everybody's had. Of course.

00:51:42.540 The big, the bigger point here is that at some point he should have shared, whether he shared it

00:51:46.680 in the interview or later on, let's say he, let's say he didn't cool. Well now he knows, right? So

00:51:52.700 that's part of my answer is you're never going to know for sure. But the more tactical answer here

00:51:57.980 and what people have to consider is, all right, let's break down a case study. Let's say somebody

00:52:02.840 here is like, whether it's a job or this or that, or a relationship, and they want to talk about a

00:52:06.500 fetish, whatever that is, they need to think, all right, what is the context of the relationship?

00:52:12.060 What are the worst case scenarios? If I don't share X, how likely are they? There's a lot of unknowns,

00:52:18.300 unknowns. But what I do is just like, I'd tell them to write down, like, listen, what is the

00:52:22.780 shit you're not saying? Like, what is, what are you, what are you not sharing? What is it you

00:52:27.500 actually want them to understand? And then how can you craft your message and the timing of it

00:52:32.540 so that this makes sense? You know, because you don't want to share everything. And we made that

00:52:37.380 point, right? There's certain things that need to stay in that hidden window. Like you are interviewing

00:52:41.360 me right now, right? Even though like you, you chip in, it's not your job to be open about

00:52:46.740 everything. You're the interviewer. So there's some things you're going to withhold that that's

00:52:50.860 functional, but people just have to say, like, if there's a marriage going, like my wife and I,

00:52:55.500 here's something I'll open up. Like my wife and I, at one point in the past three years thought about

00:53:00.660 getting separated. Right. And this is something that is like, I shouldn't be talking about. I coach

00:53:05.300 communication and somebody goes, well, what would you say? Like to people that let's say you and your

00:53:09.720 wife had gotten divorced, you know, wouldn't that completely screw your business? And I go, well,

00:53:14.340 listen, if my wife and I are open enough, let's say that would have happened. If we were open enough

00:53:18.860 that we found out that we weren't the right fit for one another and we made the best move possible

00:53:23.160 based on this. And we had tried and we had gone through all like, then like, how does that diminish

00:53:28.240 my expertise as somebody, what I do just because a situation in life didn't work out? Like, okay,

00:53:34.240 now this goes back to what you said about people being worried about skeletons in their closet

00:53:38.180 leadership. Whoops. Uh, this company didn't work out or this venture didn't work out. Guess I'm a bad

00:53:43.700 leader. Steve jobs had companies that didn't work out. Tony Robbins has marriage is on his like

00:53:48.360 second or third marriage. Now my wife and I figured it out, but there's no guarantee of future success.

00:53:53.520 There's not in any venture, but the point is, is us going through that struggle allowed us to be

00:53:59.340 more open about this. So to your point, sometimes people are just going to have to take a risk,

00:54:02.960 Ryan. They're going to have to be open about something. If they care about it, they're going to

00:54:07.020 have to know that they're not in control of what beyond a point, what that person does with that

00:54:11.460 information. But the only way for communication to fail is if it stops or ceases to exist to begin

00:54:18.020 with. So that's what I would say is like step one, you've got to open up about some things.

00:54:23.820 Otherwise don't get pissed when people don't understand you or they're not committed or

00:54:29.260 whatever, because they're not going to trust you. You don't have that power with them.

00:54:34.160 That trust, that trust word is actually, that's really interesting. And you know, I found,

00:54:39.000 and I'm just speaking from this personal experience because it's so close is that trust

00:54:45.120 level is huge. I've had people say, oh man, I trust you so much more now, which is interesting

00:54:50.500 because in my mind, I've thought to myself, well, if you didn't know that you, you would

00:54:56.380 have still trusted me. And now you trust me more, but only because I told you, but if I didn't tell

00:55:00.660 you, you'd still try, it's kind of a weird, it's kind of a weird, but my, my reason for doing so.

00:55:06.160 And this goes back to, I think when we were talking about motive is look, I'm telling guys,

00:55:12.780 they have to be an integrity. So I have to be an integrity and the, and yeah, I've made some

00:55:18.880 mess ups and made some missteps, but the only way to get back in integrity is do it regardless

00:55:24.280 of the outcome. That's what, that's the point that I got to is like, I don't know what the outcome is,

00:55:28.600 but the outcome isn't a factor actually in me being an integrity.

00:55:32.000 No, all you can do is, is engage in what Royal Dutch shell calls scenario planning or futures

00:55:38.260 planning. And this is something that we find it valuable at all of our workshops. We use improv

00:55:43.080 and like tactical improv, right? Like, so somebody will have an issue and they'll say, you know,

00:55:48.920 I don't know how to deal with this with my boss and whatever. So we can start to assign and we have

00:55:53.620 a framework for doing this characteristics and constraints to recreate that kind of scenario

00:55:58.720 in real time. And we'll get two people to come up and engage in a version of conversational sparring,

00:56:05.100 right? And we'll say, this could go many ways, but let's say we look at four and we put a three

00:56:10.200 to five minute time limit on it. Well, let's have you guys engage in this. And we set up the scene

00:56:14.980 and make it go as bad as it possibly could be the worst versions of yourselves. Boom. And we record all

00:56:21.660 this stuff. It's a lot of fun. And then we'll, we'll stop that. We'll show them it. And we have like

00:56:26.880 a whole evaluation that helps us get into the nitty gritty. And then we're like, all right,

00:56:30.220 now dial that down. You know, let's say bring like, not the most like vitriolic versions of

00:56:35.400 yourselves, but one that gets a little bit heat and you see where this is going, right? We look at

00:56:39.060 best case scenario, worst case scenario, whatever. And now people, uh, and it doesn't have to be real

00:56:44.300 life. You know, just like when I trained athletes, there's not a bunch of athletes walking around

00:56:48.500 400 pounds on their back, but we'll do that situationally to help them get better at certain aspects

00:56:52.760 of their sport and, and physical characteristics. The point is, is they're dealing with real

00:56:57.280 emotions. They're dealing with that kind of proactive conflict resolution. And they're at

00:57:01.720 least able to come with ideas and stress. And then when they watch themselves on video, they're like,

00:57:05.160 Oh shit, they didn't know. No. And like, that's why, like, I think you and me, I don't want to speak

00:57:11.220 for you, but like, I would imagine just cause I know you're introspective. Like I tell people I have

00:57:15.960 just the right amount of self-hate because like, and I say this because I see myself on screen,

00:57:21.300 I'll hear my voice when, when other people don't get the opportunity to like role play or see

00:57:27.640 themselves or listen to themselves. That leads to the curse of knowledge that leads to the Dunning

00:57:32.420 Kruger that leads to thinking everybody else is the problem because they're not actually engaging

00:57:37.980 in that role playing counter perspective. And also when you get people to play the opposite role,

00:57:41.940 that is one of the most impactful. You play this person. Now you play this person. Like what now,

00:57:47.860 what do you think? So I think that that's one of the most valuable things that people can do. And

00:57:52.660 yeah, you train for one time we had somebody who's like, yo, I don't have time for, you know,

00:57:56.760 make believe or whatever. And I'm like, really? Like go tell that to surgeons that practice on

00:58:01.540 cadavers and this and that. Go tell that to football coaches that have scrimmages on fourth

00:58:07.340 and one. It ain't really fourth and one, you know, like grow up, you know, a lot of it is just people

00:58:11.260 being defensive and insecure. Yeah. Well, brother, this has been awesome. I can't believe an hour has

00:58:16.860 passed already. I took so many notes, right? That's what I was doing. I wasn't like checking

00:58:19.900 my texts, by the way. I don't know if ever people ever checking my phone. I'm actually taking notes

00:58:25.200 because what's cool about this is, you know, talking about introspection is I actually,

00:58:29.840 I actually, I asked the questions that I want the answers to. Yeah, it's good. I'm like,

00:58:34.780 I need to know about this for myself and then hopefully other people get value from it too. So

00:58:39.400 yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Brother, I appreciate it. Tell the guys where to connect with you and

00:58:43.420 how to learn more about what you're doing. Yeah. Best place is artofcoaching.com. Artofcoaching.com.

00:58:49.160 Do not be confused by the name. Coaching is synonymous with leadership. So we serve people

00:58:53.920 across 30 different professions. Our whole mission is about changing the way the world interacts when

00:58:59.320 it matters most. So we have stuff on influence, persuasion, anything like that. We have a podcast

00:59:05.300 as well, the Art of Coaching podcast. And if anybody's interested in the book,

00:59:08.600 just go to artofcoaching.com book and updates on that will be peppered out. It's going to go out in

00:59:15.720 2024. So I appreciate the opportunity and sorry, I blacked out. I get pretty, you know, locked into

00:59:21.160 this stuff. No, it's awesome. What, do you have a title for the book or can you not disclose that

00:59:25.900 right now? Right now, working title, we're going back and forth. One of the things we're experimenting

00:59:30.060 with right now is fit to lead because like you said, a lot of people don't feel like they're a fit.

00:59:33.740 They don't feel like they meet this model. Of course, I wanted some things that were a little

00:59:38.120 bit more titular, like devil's advocate. I wanted, you know, like dirty leadership.

00:59:43.220 Yeah, it's not real like in your face.

00:59:46.420 Oh, believe me. I'm battling with the publisher. So right now, working title, but the bottom line is

00:59:51.520 all the stuff that we talked about today is going to be addressed in there in depth. And so, you know,

00:59:56.920 regardless of what the title is, the content is going to be there that people can apply to their

01:00:00.840 day-to-day life. I have no doubt. I can, I can attest to that because I read your prior book.

01:00:05.880 Obviously you're that part of that message in that book and your work was influential enough to make

01:00:11.200 it into my book. So it impacted me that way. And it's helped the guys who have read that. So

01:00:15.160 I can attest to the work that you're doing and the information you're putting out there.

01:00:18.760 Brett, I appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining me.

01:00:20.340 Thank you, Ryan. All right, guys, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Brett

01:00:25.200 Bartholomew. I hope you enjoyed that one. This is just a snippet, just a sampling of

01:00:30.140 the diverse information this gentleman has as it relates to leadership. And look,

01:00:35.880 we all want to be better leaders, whether it's for your wife or for your children or in your

01:00:39.960 business. And this is a man who knows a lot about leadership and how to improve yourself as one.

01:00:47.260 So I hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you did take a screenshot very quickly, tag me,

01:00:52.700 tag Brett in that screenshot, post it up on Instagram or Facebook and Twitter, wherever you're

01:00:57.380 doing your social media stuff and let people know what you're listening to. Part of being

01:01:01.740 a man is being able to share tools and resources that you have at your disposal. This is one of

01:01:06.000 them. So I ask that you please share because that's how other men are going to learn about what we're

01:01:11.300 doing and improve their, their facet of the world, which is what we're trying to do. Take over the world

01:01:17.580 and help men reclaim and restore masculinity. Uh, in the meantime, guys, make sure you check

01:01:22.740 out our battle ready program, order of man.com slash battle ready. And also check out our battle

01:01:27.740 planner at store.orderofman.com. Again, connect with Brett, pick up a copy of his book, conscious

01:01:33.540 coaching, the art and science of building buy-in, and also stay tuned for his book. That's coming out

01:01:38.040 in 2024. All right, guys, appreciate you all. Let's go out there, take action, become the men we

01:01:44.260 are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge

01:01:49.100 of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at

01:01:53.840 orderofman.com.

Order of Man - January 24, 2023

BRETT BARTHOLOMEW ｜ Leading Through Chess, Not Checkers

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