Order of Man - Building a Business, Building a Life

00:00:00.000 So many of you listening have entrepreneurial aspirations, but if you're anything like me

00:00:04.580 and how I've been in the past, you may be thinking to yourself, who am I to start a

00:00:08.620 business? Frankly, who are you not to each and every man listening to this has a set of skills,

00:00:14.960 insights, perspectives, and values to add to the world. And it wasn't until I realized this,

00:00:20.200 that order of man really started to take off. And I think my guest, Jason McCarthy, founder of

00:00:24.440 GORUCK would likely agree. He didn't know that when he was building GORUCK, he'd also be building

00:00:29.700 his life, but that's what he discovered. Today, we talk about ignorance and education,

00:00:35.500 when to throw in the towel and when to drive on, respecting and honoring your roots,

00:00:41.040 being present in the moment, and ultimately how to build a life by building a business.

00:00:46.020 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart

00:00:50.720 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not

00:00:56.580 easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:03.760 This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:08.520 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,

00:01:13.320 and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and the Order of Man movement. I want to welcome

00:01:17.960 you here and welcome you back. Glad to have you tuned in. We're seeing some tremendous growth,

00:01:23.260 guys. And I got to thank you. First and foremost, I got to, I got to put it where it's due, which is

00:01:27.700 on you for sharing, for leaving reviews, for talking with other people in your life about what

00:01:32.580 we're doing here, which our mission, if you don't know, and you're just visiting for us for the first

00:01:37.060 time is to reclaim and restore masculinity in a society that is increasingly dismissive of it.

00:01:44.180 So it's my goal to give you conversations like the one today, uh, and resources and tools and

00:01:51.600 everything that you need to step up more fully in your life. As a man, we've got a very, very good

00:01:56.220 conversation with somebody I highly, highly respect. Uh, and I think you will too. A lot of you guys are

00:02:01.460 familiar with Jason and his company go ruck. So we're going to get into that in just a minute.

00:02:06.120 Uh, before I do, I also want to give a quick shout out to our show sponsors and friends, more

00:02:11.560 importantly, friends. These are the guys at origin main. They make geese rash guards, lifestyle apparel,

00:02:19.080 boots, denim. Uh, they're, they're bringing on some, uh, belts that they're making now.

00:02:24.880 And they also have a nutritional lineup. This is partnered up with Jocko Willink. It's called

00:02:29.200 Jocko fuel. They've got discipline and they've got, uh, their milk, which is a protein. And they're

00:02:35.380 working on a milk bar right now. They've got so much going on and they're, uh, they're cognitive

00:02:40.600 enhancing drink called discipline. Go. I happen to like JP Danell's signature flavor, which is sour

00:02:47.220 apple sniper. That's my favorite so far. So check it out at origin, main.com origin, main.com. And if

00:02:54.080 you end up getting boots, denim, geese, rash guards, uh, anything, use the code order O R D E R

00:03:00.800 at checkout, because you're going to get a 10% discount when you do again, origin, main.com and

00:03:07.140 use the code order at checkout. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Jason

00:03:12.900 McCarthy. He is a former army special forces, green beret, and you probably know him as the

00:03:18.200 founder of go Ruck. Uh, Jason is one of the most realist and most down to earth men, especially

00:03:23.980 considering how successful he has been both in the military. And then of course, as he's grown

00:03:28.960 go Ruck into this international business. Uh, he's also the author of his newest book, how not to start

00:03:35.980 a backpack company where he documents his own personal victories and struggles and his professional

00:03:41.920 life, his personal life gets very personal. That's, uh, one thing I recognized about the

00:03:46.840 book and, and really respected about what he did because he shares those stories of personal

00:03:50.860 hardship, uh, relationship challenge, uh, relationship challenges, I should say, uh, on his quest to

00:03:57.140 build frankly, a life that he can be proud of. You're going to enjoy this one, fellas.

00:04:02.700 Jason, what's up, man. Thanks for joining me on the podcast, Ryan. Thanks for having me. It's good

00:04:06.240 to see you again, man. Yeah. Yeah. You too. I, I should have went back and, and looked to see

00:04:11.260 when we initially did our podcast, but it must, it, it must've been three years ago or so at this

00:04:16.360 point, I think it was like 2016. Yeah. So four years ago, even longer. Well, lots, so I was just

00:04:22.540 on a lot going on, man. I almost went on Skype instead of on zoom. Cause that's where the,

00:04:26.940 the, the old call was. So I just, I just saw the date. I cheated. Yeah. That's the, that's actually

00:04:31.860 the only thing we've done in the last four years is if we've just moved from Skype to zoom,

00:04:35.040 that's the only thing we've done in order of man. That's a, that's different.

00:04:37.760 You know, there's this bar close to us. It's called Pete's, right? And their motto is change

00:04:43.400 nothing. Now they could make it's, it's a great, it's one of the world's great dive bars, right?

00:04:50.040 Now, every once in a while, you might want to clean the bathrooms or put a fresh coat of paint

00:04:53.800 maybe somewhere. But other than that, I, I understand the motto, right? If it's not broken,

00:04:58.580 don't fix it. So I think what you're doing is awesome. And, and, uh, no need to, no need to change

00:05:02.880 the technology change a little bit. That's fine. Yeah. You know, I, I think there's a lot of

00:05:06.740 nostalgia that comes with that as well. And you know, everything's like so fast, right? We're in

00:05:10.920 this technologically driven world, even more so with COVID, right? Everybody's on zoom and

00:05:15.840 everything's digital and nothing's face to face anymore. Uh, and, and the, the, the further we go

00:05:21.760 down that route, the more that we need to connect with people, the more that we need to maybe slow

00:05:27.220 down a little bit and just appreciate what we have be involved, move our bodies, exercise our minds,

00:05:33.040 which is obviously in line with what you guys are doing with the go rock.

00:05:37.280 I mean, I think we're in to kind of expound on that. I think we're in a bad honeymoon with a bad

00:05:43.980 marriage with this whole technology thing. Right. I think there's kind of this, this period of, okay,

00:05:50.200 we've got to do this. Let's be cyborgs and live, live behind the glass behind our screens all day,

00:05:57.080 every day. And it's so efficient, right? Yeah. Like, like we're cyborgs and you know, it's like

00:06:04.480 Terminator, it's like the Terminator guarding John Connor by staying up all night, staring out the

00:06:09.820 window. Cause he doesn't need to sleep. Right. Right. You know, I mean, it's, it's nice in theory,

00:06:14.020 but it's not actually going to work out that well for us. And so long-term anyways, no, not long-term.

00:06:20.740 I mean, you can go to the well. And I think that what we're seeing is there's a lot of people out

00:06:25.020 there who have preexisting relationships, right? Preexisting work relationships or, or whatever.

00:06:31.060 And you're used to seeing those people online. Meanwhile, a dear friend of mine, who's local,

00:06:37.040 she comes into front of our families and stuff. She comes into the office and she started a new job

00:06:43.480 and it's all virtual. It's, it's like, it's a really different type of challenge, you know?

00:06:50.560 So what I'm seeing is I'm seeing a lot of people at the community level, starving for

00:06:54.800 kind of let's get outside and go for a walk. We, you got people meeting neighbors and actually

00:06:59.880 caring about their neighbors for the first time in a long time. You know, you got people meeting up

00:07:04.960 in parks to go do some PT or to have a picnic or to do some of the simpler things. So I'm just seeing

00:07:13.600 this, this world that's, it's really at odds in some ways. And I think that's good, right? Because

00:07:21.640 there's this, Hey, let's go have a picnic in the park. And then there's the, you know, you're on a

00:07:26.580 different time zone, 18 hour difference, whatever. Right. And yet we can just stare at each other on

00:07:32.660 the screen and pretend like, like anybody knows anybody else, just cause you're, you're staring

00:07:36.740 at them on a screen and it's convenient and it's easy, but it's not, it's not going to fulfill us

00:07:42.540 the same way. And so where that, that sort of clash is right now, I think we're all kind of fighting

00:07:47.920 it a little bit and we're just trying to get through it and see where the dust settles.

00:07:51.880 And I think it's going to settle on the side of people need to figure out how to spend some time

00:07:56.260 in the real world outside with their friends. And the technology is certainly here to stay.

00:08:01.460 So we have to learn how to, how to live with it and embrace it, but not let it turn into just over,

00:08:07.900 overruling us. No, I think that's exactly right. It's a wonderful tool. I mean, you and I wouldn't

00:08:12.800 be having this conversation. I wouldn't have the podcast, the reach that you have with your

00:08:16.520 organization wouldn't be as large without the technology that we utilize. But if we become,

00:08:22.320 if we let it become the master, as opposed to we mastering the tool, I think that's where we

00:08:27.060 run at the issue. So all it is, is a tool. It's a tool to be able to connect more. And I'll tell you,

00:08:31.740 even in my experience, when I connect with people on Instagram or Facebook or through the web,

00:08:36.620 whatever it may be, when we do actually get together face-to-face in person, it's that much

00:08:41.640 better because we can cut right to it instead of all the little nuances and all the small talk

00:08:46.060 because we already know a little bit about each other. And so it's just a tool that we're harnessing

00:08:50.200 to connect on a deeper level when we do get face-to-face with people.

00:08:54.780 Yeah. Since the beginning, we said we're at GORUCK, we're making real friends out of Facebook

00:08:58.380 friends. And so I think if that's the model, I think that's a good model. If you start to let that

00:09:06.680 justify or rationalize living online all day, every day, you're chasing the wrong stuff. Probably need to,

00:09:14.860 probably need to look a little closer to home or figure out what your big goals are in life or

00:09:19.340 figure out how you're spending your time, right? I mean, show me your calendar and your bank account

00:09:24.580 and I'll tell you what really matters in your life. And if you're, I mean, look at your phone,

00:09:30.400 right? How many hours a day are you spending on your phone? It's there. It tracks it for you.

00:09:34.320 Yeah, I don't look at that stuff. I don't want to know.

00:09:36.180 What's your step count, right? I mean, it's in your phone, right? I mean, are you taking care

00:09:42.260 of yourself? Stuff like that. I mean, you can't cheat the physics of all of this. You can't run

00:09:48.300 away from the basics, which are if you live on your phone all day, you're probably not going to get it.

00:09:53.020 You're not going to be outside enough. You're probably not going to, it's just a well that

00:09:56.840 you're going to. And look, I'm not sitting here like I have my phone. It's sitting right here. It's

00:10:02.320 like kind of a leash, you know? So there's some discipline required to all of this. And yet,

00:10:09.640 you know, that's the hardest thing for me to do is to shut my brain off, right? Even when I'm with my

00:10:13.980 family or with my kids, with M, unless I'm doing something that's physically kind of taxing painful

00:10:21.260 or it's kind of the aftermath of something like that, it's really hard to kind of just flip that

00:10:28.520 switch. And so the siren of the phone, which is just constant access to problems, right? There's

00:10:36.420 lots of problems that I can find in my phone all the time, right? And then I can solve those problems

00:10:42.720 and that feels good. But sometimes they're the wrong problems or they're too small. Yeah, you're just,

00:10:48.440 you know, you're bottom feeding. And chasing everything on your phone, it's like bottom feeding.

00:10:52.720 If you want to, you want to be a shark, you can't just bottom feed all day long.

00:10:58.300 Hmm. I never thought about that. It's almost like the path of least resistance. It's like going to

00:11:02.780 these easy things or arguing with somebody on it over, over a post or over a definition of a word

00:11:07.980 that you may have used that they don't like. Yeah. I've never really thought of it as bottom feeding,

00:11:12.400 but that actually makes a lot of sense. Or you can consume yourself with solving high level

00:11:17.520 problems that are meaningful and significant to you. And it's very taxing on your brain,

00:11:22.140 right? I mean, we don't know this while we're doing it, but it's very taxing when every five

00:11:27.800 seconds there's a new, there's a new something that you just, it pops up. And that's what the

00:11:33.120 algorithms are designed to do. It's always something new. Everyone's always got something

00:11:36.040 new, new stuff. And you're, you're kind of trying to process that. And it's not reality. And I say that

00:11:41.900 like, I have a massive amount of respect for, if you want to start a business, you need Facebook,

00:11:48.000 you need Google, you need Amazon, you need all of these things that are quote free, right?

00:11:54.720 There are certain, there are free elements, maybe not Amazon, but there are free elements to Google

00:11:58.900 and Facebook and Instagram and all these social platforms and zoom and Skype and all, all of these

00:12:04.220 things you can do so much to get it out there. Just make sure you, it's like, are you walking the

00:12:10.660 dog or is the dog walking you? Right. Exactly. Is you, you said something interesting and I,

00:12:16.840 and I fall into this as well. I'm sure a lot of guys listening do too, that it's hard for you to

00:12:21.320 shut your brain off. You always want to be active. You want to be solving problems is, is the catalyst

00:12:26.800 and the origin of, of go ruck, not the bag so much as, as the events. Was that you getting out and,

00:12:33.960 and wanting to shut it down and just be immersed in, in some physical and strenuous exercise is,

00:12:41.200 is that a little bit of the catalyst or is it something else?

00:12:43.400 Yeah. I mean, I think the, at the very beginning of go rock, I was, I had no idea what I was doing.

00:12:51.320 And so when you have no idea, I know, let me rephrase that. I had no idea how to build a

00:12:57.840 business. I had no idea how to communicate what I could communicate. I, you know, I'd come from

00:13:03.860 special forces. You're, you're the quiet professionals. It doesn't mean silent, but it does mean quiet,

00:13:09.520 right? Because it's not about you. And so what people in that industry, in that industry,

00:13:14.540 people in that profession, that trade of arms, sure. What we don't like is when people get out

00:13:20.760 and they make it all about them because that's not what it's about. It was never all about you

00:13:25.640 ever. Not for once, not ever was it all about you. And you get someone who wins the medal of honor

00:13:31.620 and all they do is they're like, it's, this is not about me. I mean, you know, take that stuff to

00:13:36.320 heart, right? The most decorated of us all are like you, you get to that sort of Zen moment and

00:13:44.680 you, you know, even more. Right. Right. And so I had to kind of make peace with how I could do

00:13:51.800 something to, to fulfill my, like to do something with my life at age 30 ish. Right. It was going to

00:13:59.660 be worthwhile where I could continue to give back. And I just, that's what I knew. I'd spent a couple

00:14:04.800 years designing and building the rucksacks and, you know, nobody wanted to buy them. And so I had

00:14:11.740 a problem. I don't know anything about Facebook ads. I don't know anything about Google ads,

00:14:16.360 nothing. Right. You know, it's, and in fact, I didn't even have those accounts. I think I joined

00:14:22.780 Facebook relatively like 2008, 2009, maybe, but it was like not a thing for me ever. Right. Right.

00:14:29.440 And I didn't know anything about how to, how to utilize those tools. I knew how to get out and

00:14:36.380 a little bit. And so that was, that was just what I defaulted to. And that's, you know, it was me

00:14:43.460 living the life that I enjoyed though, even though at the time I was transitioning from the army. So I

00:14:48.680 was completely rejecting all the kind of, Oh, I don't want to do any of those hard things I had to do in

00:14:53.220 the army anymore. You know, you always go, it's like you break up with one girl and you're like,

00:14:57.100 to the end of the extreme. Right. Yeah. It's like, I hated that girl. And so I'm going to go find the

00:15:00.860 complete opposite. Right. And it's just a, it's just a train wreck, you know? And, and so that was,

00:15:07.800 this was kind of the beginning of a really positive transition for me was to get out, get outside with

00:15:15.700 other people. And I got to give back. I got to teach people about themselves. I got to teach people

00:15:21.420 about life and special forces. I got to teach people about what, what the military is like just

00:15:28.400 a little bit, because I think it's very easy to talk about, Oh, you know, there, there's such a

00:15:34.360 huge divide between the military and civilian worlds. And it's just speaking in absolutes like

00:15:39.320 that. It doesn't really do it justice. There's lots of common ground that we all have. And so,

00:15:45.000 you know, people want to know about that stuff, especially at that time when the wars were a lot

00:15:50.420 more front and center. And I think, you know, skirmishes wars, whatever we want to call them

00:15:56.020 will always be front and center. I think it's always important for us to, to build bridges,

00:15:59.840 not just divides. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. The thing, one of the things that I was really

00:16:04.820 looking forward to talking with you about is in the book and I, and I've got it right here. Um,

00:16:10.280 you did a really good job explaining the highs and the lows. I mean, you get really personal,

00:16:18.220 including sharing emails between you and your wife. And it's interesting because

00:16:23.580 my then soon to be future ex-wife now, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. Wife again.

00:16:29.640 What a crazy, what a crazy story. Yeah. I mean, it's just, just a crazy, crazy story,

00:16:34.100 but here's the thing that I like about it because we get requests and comments all the time from guys

00:16:39.780 who say, you know, I just want to hear from quote unquote ordinary guys. Now what they're

00:16:45.180 overlooking is that every person I've ever had on this podcast is an ordinary guy that has just

00:16:52.040 decided to take some action and apply some of his skillsets or the things he's learned or his gifts

00:16:56.660 and make himself something more. But I love that you highlight in the book and throughout your story

00:17:03.200 that this isn't like everything that you touch turns to gold. In fact, you probably feel like it

00:17:09.940 might actually be the opposite and you do a great job documenting how big of a struggle it's been

00:17:16.080 over the past, what, 10, 10 years now. Yeah. So the, how not to start a backpack company is sort

00:17:23.200 of centered. That's the title of the book is sort of centered around the trip I took in, in the summer

00:17:28.680 of 2010. I was in between years at business school and I drove to all 48 States. I'd made it up in my mind

00:17:34.260 that that was what we were going to do. We were going to visit a lot of small retail shops and we're

00:17:39.020 going to meet people and get into adventures and sort of blog about it. That was the plan. And it

00:17:44.680 was really, really hard. It didn't, the plan was bad. It didn't work out. I sold nothing. I went

00:17:50.880 completely broke. You know, everybody who was with me left except for my dog. And I was fighting with

00:17:57.180 my then to be future ex-wife, whatever, whatever, right. About who's going to get to keep the dog.

00:18:03.300 So that was excruciating. I was kind of going through a divorce officially anyway, finalizing

00:18:10.440 one at the time. And it was just, it was really hard. And yet this trip that I took throughout

00:18:15.760 America was really beautiful. It was just awesome. And so you've got this just complete contrast of,

00:18:22.680 you know, kind of putting a veneer on, on my life a little bit, but it was also kind of easy,

00:18:28.900 right? Because America is, there's so many great people out there and there's so much beauty in so

00:18:34.140 many beautiful places that'll just lift you up from nothing. And yet my own life is just burning

00:18:39.940 down to the ground. And I've got this company that's just putting all this pressure on me.

00:18:46.000 Well, let me, let me say that again. The company is helping me put pressure on myself,

00:18:51.560 right? We let's take responsibility here. Right. Sure. And, and so that was just a,

00:18:58.180 it was just a challenge. And I kind of knew I wasn't going to do that again,

00:19:03.060 but it's still at the same time, it may be, I mean, Travels with Charlie is a Steinbeck book and

00:19:09.420 it's awesome. And it's about how he wanted to go out and rediscover America later in life and stuff

00:19:13.480 like that. And those are hugely inspiring road trips. Who doesn't, I mean, a good road trip's

00:19:17.700 awesome. A good trip. Awesome. Go out West, go out West, young man, you know, go find yourself.

00:19:23.520 And I was looking to find myself. The problem is, is when you're lost, trying to go find yourself by

00:19:28.740 driving to a new town every day is, is a good way to kind of escape the problem, which probably

00:19:33.860 is going to breed more problems that you're going to have to deal with if you actually want to find

00:19:37.400 yourself. So there was a little bit of that going on as well. Do you feel like you did find

00:19:42.500 yourself or at least give yourself some, some direction or clarity purpose? Like what is it that

00:19:47.900 you walked away from as you, as you went on this trip across the country?

00:19:54.040 I felt like I didn't quit and I felt like doing something was a lot better than doing nothing,

00:20:02.120 like sitting in an apartment, feeling sorry for myself. Right. So as, as you start to say, well,

00:20:08.220 what do you do when times are tough? I mean, I had to go to the well a little bit more than I had hoped

00:20:14.260 for like the personal well, you know, because I had some really dear friends that were with me on

00:20:19.020 the trip. One of whom is the, took all the best photos that are in the book and was the editor of

00:20:25.780 the book. Right. So we're very much, you know, like things are good. It's just at the time it was just

00:20:32.700 a real challenge and it cost, it was difficult with the people and because the situation was difficult

00:20:39.820 and I was kind of built for that to a certain extent. Right. Like I was trying to relive some

00:20:44.580 type of Spartan special forces life, except on the road and demanding that everybody do that.

00:20:51.680 And the only one that was comfortable with that was Java, my dog. Right. And, and so, you know,

00:20:57.200 did I find myself? No, but what I did do was I just kind of kept going and that unlocked some more

00:21:05.140 doors. Right. Because if, if you sit at home and feel sorry for yourself, things have a tendency

00:21:10.600 of just not working out. It's not, it's not like you're cursed or something. It's just, if you fish

00:21:16.720 more, you'll catch more fish. Right. So, you know, it's just time in the field essentially is what it is.

00:21:22.360 Yeah. You know, so, you know, some of the things that the mechanics that I learned how to do were,

00:21:27.120 first off, I learned how to kind of talk about GORUCK because I was going to these stores. I was trying to

00:21:33.080 communicate the brand and the brand values. And so that was good practice. I learned how to take

00:21:38.180 photos. I was taking so many photos to try to get two or three or four a day. I mean,

00:21:44.200 a thousand photos sometimes a day. Wow. Yeah. Like just to get those three right ones. Sure.

00:21:49.800 Because I had nothing else to do. Right. And I don't, you know, idle hands and stuff. So

00:21:54.140 it's like, you know, this is too, too beautiful. So I had a, a Nikon at the time, like a D70 or D80.

00:22:00.340 No, maybe it was a D90 by the end of that. But, you know, trying to learn that, I mean,

00:22:06.160 I didn't know anything. Right. And the camera will do a lot of the work for you. But, you know,

00:22:10.740 recently someone, it's a Rich who's on our podcast from time to time as, as one of the co-hosts.

00:22:16.800 And Rich is a little bit older. Also don't mess with him. Right. But, you know, his, his wife needed

00:22:22.240 a portrait for her, her new job. Right. That, that she started. And he comes in and he's like,

00:22:29.700 Hey, do you have this other camera here? And I'm like, no, it's at home. And he's like, well,

00:22:33.400 I've been trying to, that, that sucks. Cause I need to take a picture of Nancy and my, my iPhone

00:22:37.560 isn't doing the trick. And I'm like, Rich, it's not the iPhone. That's the problem, bud. It's you.

00:22:42.400 That's right. It's always, would you rather have the skillset or the tool? You always want the skillset.

00:22:46.560 Yeah, exactly. And so I did have a different camera and I did use that. And I took a picture

00:22:52.180 of, of his wife, Nancy, and it turned out great. But, but the point is, is like, you know, just

00:22:56.400 because I had an expensive camera, it didn't mean that it was going to work for me. Right. Inside in

00:23:01.120 the dark is a lot different than outside in the middle of the day and all these kinds of things.

00:23:05.380 So learned how to do that, you know, did end up talking to a lot of stores that were in retail,

00:23:10.940 you know, went out and just, you know, it was somehow the story tells better as I think about

00:23:19.220 it than when I actually remember the details that I put in the book, you know, because the details in

00:23:24.860 the book were a journal that just lived forever. Right. And so it really painted the picture of a

00:23:29.760 lot of the struggles. So the short answer is no, I didn't find myself. The long answer is that

00:23:37.100 it opened up a lot of communication channels. You know, I reached out to a lot of people I was

00:23:43.400 forced to, cause this company was just failing. So I reached out to literally everybody that I knew

00:23:48.380 at the time and said, Hey, I've started this company. I need your help. Will you support me?

00:23:52.360 That's a really hard thing to do. Definitely. And if you're not willing to do it, then, you know,

00:23:58.140 you're not ready to start a company and right. I mean, or, or you're not ready to succeed at a

00:24:03.780 company. Yeah. You can start for sure. Yeah. Starting is easy. You go on legal zoom and file

00:24:09.940 the paperwork. It's not a problem. Right. But so there's certain things that I just had to get

00:24:15.200 comfortable with. And I had this, this problem of, I didn't want to overstep my bounds of my past.

00:24:22.020 I was just completely unwilling to bring any shame upon the special forces community that I came from.

00:24:29.260 And so I had to kind of make my peace with that. And I, well, I just, I want to interject here,

00:24:33.780 because that's an interesting thought. What do you think might have been overstepping your bounds?

00:24:39.180 Like what, what exactly were you afraid of or concerned with, with your previous, you know,

00:24:44.980 organization and affiliation? Yeah. So there's just certain things you shouldn't do. Like you

00:24:51.720 shouldn't look ridiculous ever. Right. And so you shouldn't make a mockery and run. So there was a

00:24:57.940 a company that was another events company and they essentially, they liked the fact that I was

00:25:04.060 a special forces guy and they had this proposal that they gave me that I was going to show up at

00:25:09.780 their events and lead these small groups of people with big flags running all over the place. And I was

00:25:15.620 going to wear ranger panties and sort of sing songs and stuff about, you know, special forces and stuff.

00:25:21.260 And I was just appalled by the thought that the thought of not only just seeing myself doing that,

00:25:29.660 which I will never do, but the, the thought of my buddies seeing that I went to war with,

00:25:35.580 right. Seeing me do that now, there's lots of things that you can do in this world with your life.

00:25:42.780 And, you know, you don't have to do things that will bring shame upon yourself and every organization

00:25:49.240 that you've been a part of. And I just wasn't willing to do that. And like, it just, I mean,

00:25:54.600 cause I can imagine if I would see one of my buddies doing that and like, it just, it's just not going

00:25:59.460 to happen. Yeah. It's funny. Cause I actually had a somewhat similar scenario. Uh, when I got back

00:26:05.540 from my rack, I got into the financial planning field. So this was about, this was 2006.

00:26:09.380 And as I was building my financial planning practice, I had a mentor come to me one day and

00:26:15.720 he said, Hey, uh, I wanted to talk with you about your military service. I said, sure. Yeah. What's

00:26:19.960 up. And the reason he wanted to talk with me about it is because he wanted me to use it as a marketing

00:26:25.620 tactic for growing my financial planning firm. He's like, you need to talk about it more. You need

00:26:31.020 to talk about it in this context. And he wanted to be really gimmicky, similar to what you're saying.

00:26:36.440 And I said, look, I'm not going to do that. Could I sell more insurance or pick up more assets?

00:26:42.180 Yeah, probably, you know, I could probably do that, but I didn't join the military and I didn't

00:26:47.100 serve so that I could make a few more bucks off of people. And, uh, so I can definitely appreciate

00:26:52.720 and relate with what you're saying here. Uh, it is interesting because I have seen people

00:26:57.620 sell out for lack of a better term and they look ridiculous and they bring, uh, shame in a lot

00:27:03.180 of ways to something that I think is very honorable and noble. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily take away

00:27:08.800 from their service, but it's not a good book. And I've seen it too. And I stay away from those

00:27:12.940 people in those organizations because I don't want to be associated with them. If you'll do anything

00:27:17.260 for a buck, you'll do anything for lots of things. Yes. And it's, it's kind of like, that's the kind of

00:27:23.540 person you are then. And so, you know, there, there are a lot more important things to me than,

00:27:30.040 than money and, you know, honor, duty, country, respect, you know, integrity, all those kinds of

00:27:37.320 things. And, and nobody's perfect. And I'm not sitting here claiming to be, I'm just saying that I,

00:27:42.400 I, at that, at that time and still until my dying breath will have this debt that I owe to the

00:27:52.480 special forces regiment. And, you know, and, and that's, that's kind of at a really elevated

00:27:59.220 level, right. At a, at a really, at a really tactical level. It's like, I think about the

00:28:06.820 guys that I knew very well that I served with. And, and, you know, it's kind of like, sure,

00:28:12.000 you serve America, you serve special forces, but you're really serving the guy to your left and the

00:28:15.720 guy to your right. And they're the ultimate check for me. And so they were involved. Some of those guys

00:28:20.340 were, were involved with, you know, early testing of GORUCK stuff. And, you know, they've just been

00:28:24.960 in my corner. And if they hadn't been in my corner, I would have gotten the way it works. Did you get

00:28:29.020 blacklisted? And then nobody wants to work with you? That's any good. And you only get the people

00:28:34.740 that are willing to put on tutus and sing special forces songs. And those aren't the guys that you

00:28:40.100 want because nobody takes them seriously because then you have guys like you and me on this call who

00:28:44.620 were like, Hey, you know, that's, that's not a good look, man. Right. And yet, you know,

00:28:50.320 one caveat is sometimes, you know, people are just lost and that sucks. And if someone is going down

00:28:59.680 a path and I don't mean put on a tutu and sing songs or whatever, but if someone's going down a path

00:29:04.300 and you serve with them and you knew them and you have a personal connection, like we all can reserve

00:29:10.640 the right to call them up and ask them to go grab a beer or go for a rock or go do whatever and just

00:29:16.140 chat about life and see where they are. Because a lot of times people get desperate and they have

00:29:21.460 this, this need to do something and opportunities present themselves. So, you know, look, it's a

00:29:27.000 sliding scale where we're kind of getting the hypothetical realm here a lot, but it's, it's like,

00:29:33.440 I just want to try to set a good example and I want to make the guys that I serve with proud.

00:29:37.220 Yeah. No, I mean, it makes sense. You know, I like that. You're also talking about doing something

00:29:41.460 because I think there's a lot of men who tend to get paralyzed. You know, I answer questions every

00:29:47.100 day from guys who are like, you know, I want to start this thing or I want, or I've got a bunch

00:29:50.340 of different avenues that I want to pursue and I don't know what you want to do. And, you know,

00:29:54.660 I wish there was a perfect formula, but for me, it's like, just start, just pick something and take

00:29:59.400 the next step. Here's the formula. Let's hear it. Yeah. The best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago.

00:30:04.820 Hmm. The second best time to try to plant a tree is right now. Right. Right. And it's,

00:30:11.740 it's like, it's gone. You just got to do it, man. I mean, and so part of, part of the story that I

00:30:18.040 wanted to share, because I get a lot of, I see a lot of these kinds of stories that are presented as

00:30:24.660 people who just have it figured out. Right. Like I couldn't find a good dress shirt. So I started my

00:30:30.260 own dress shirt company. It's like, man, you can go to a tailor and get custom dress shirts for very

00:30:36.780 little money now. Right. I mean, it's like the idea that you couldn't find a dress shirt is just

00:30:42.640 not reality. Yeah. Right. But you saw a business opportunity, but you didn't want to present it like

00:30:47.740 that. And, you know, now it's all slick and polished and perfect. And you're kind of this,

00:30:52.180 this avatar example of how to, how to start a great business, quote, quote. And look, not to take

00:30:58.880 anything away from shirt companies. There's some great ones out there. Right. But, but the point

00:31:02.940 is, is that it's, I didn't have anything figured out. I mean, I had a bag that nobody wanted to buy.

00:31:12.580 And I just, I, it was like, Hey, I just, I'm going to do this. It's a hobby. I didn't really think

00:31:16.980 about the money as much as I was trying to solve a problem. And then I kept kind of doubling down

00:31:21.960 and I kept not knowing how to do it more and more and more. And you can't keep doing that forever.

00:31:26.540 I don't recommend that path, but the idea of you have to just get started. That's kind of the,

00:31:34.500 that hopefully my story can be kind of a push for people to say, it's okay. You don't have to have

00:31:41.280 the perfect business plan. By the way, mine was terrible and I threw it up or sorry,

00:31:46.180 I threw it away. I threw up thinking about it. So I threw it away.

00:31:49.760 Right. And, and so it's just one of those things where like, it doesn't have to be perfect. You

00:31:57.920 just got to get going and you got to solve it along the way.

00:32:01.420 Yeah. I think that's a more realistic picture. It has been for me, you know, you talk, I don't

00:32:05.320 even have a business plan. I, you know, I just started this thing and I'm like, yeah, I'll just

00:32:08.400 do a podcast and we'll see how it goes. And you know, before I knew it, I'm like, oh, this is going

00:32:12.360 pretty good. Maybe we'll do an event. We actually did an event and nobody signed up, not a single

00:32:17.460 person. And, uh, I had to go back to the drawing board. I had to call the company that was, that

00:32:22.680 was hosting the, uh, the property for us. Tell them, Hey, I don't have anybody signed up for this

00:32:27.140 event. I went back to the drawing board three, four months later, we had 20 guys sign up for that

00:32:31.280 first event. Uh, these, these are the things that I don't think a lot of people see. All right,

00:32:37.100 man, let's try again for round two, because obviously we had some technical difficulties. I think

00:32:41.640 I was, uh, I was sharing a story and I think I finished up and wrapped up the story. But, uh,

00:32:46.620 one thing I was going to say, cause you talked about not knowing, right? That's kind of where

00:32:50.980 we were is not knowing how to do this, not having a game plan. And, and I've thought and told a lot

00:32:55.300 of people, this is, you know, it's okay to be ignorant about something, but it's not okay to

00:32:59.440 stay that way. And I think a lot of people stay there, right? They just, Hey, I don't know how to

00:33:03.620 do this. And so they just throw in the towel. It's like, no, it's, I don't know how to do this

00:33:08.460 comma, not period. I will figure it out. And that's what you've done. I think

00:33:14.240 about the same things, right? You don't want to stay ignorant about the same things. Cause

00:33:18.860 you do want to keep finding new stuff, learning new things, ignorant and learning and, you know,

00:33:24.100 throw yourself in the deep water sometime and figure out how to swim. And, and yet there's

00:33:30.240 another component to that though, that is, you know, if something is too bad for too long,

00:33:38.020 you might want to do something else with your life. It's not, it's not quitting guys, right?

00:33:44.600 Like, you know, it's, it's not, Oh, it's just, if something is, is you keep trying, you keep doing

00:33:53.180 slanking a million different ways and you're pouring your heart into something. It's like,

00:33:59.100 you know, if I wanted to go be a singer, right? As much as my heart might want to do that,

00:34:03.520 it is not going to happen. Right. It is not going to happen. I can clear out a bar faster than anyone,

00:34:10.020 you know, even karaoke with the full background, uh, the full background beat going, going solid.

00:34:16.580 And it's just one of those things. Look, it's like, but if you really love something,

00:34:21.540 then make it a labor of love. And if you can build a business around it, then, then cool. You know,

00:34:25.860 it just, there's too much, there's too much emphasis placed on outcomes. Well, if I get to this many

00:34:31.760 followers or I get to this many bank account numbers, or I get this many likes or like,

00:34:37.520 what's the point, what's the point, right? I mean, is this so that ask yourself that question,

00:34:46.460 if you're, if you're going through something, I mean, the outcomes that you're after,

00:34:49.860 that's a lot different than the process that you love. And for me, I mean, I enjoy solving new

00:34:56.760 problems and challenges the, the, but I don't want to solve it for, you know, bank A wants to

00:35:02.240 acquire bank B and how do we get the highest value out of that? That's just, I did that for about a

00:35:08.540 year where I was a low level support guy for that for about a year. And that just wasn't where my

00:35:13.140 passion was. And, and so now it's, it's more about how do we bring people together and get people

00:35:18.620 more active and how do we get a lot more people and bring a lot more people together to be a lot more

00:35:23.100 interacted. Gentlemen, I'm just gonna hit the pause button really quickly. I want to share

00:35:28.260 something with you, a goal of mine. Now I've had a goal for years now to start my own apparel company.

00:35:33.780 And although we're just now getting started, what you're going to find in the order of men's store

00:35:38.160 is just the beginning of what will eventually become a globally recognized apparel company.

00:35:44.460 And I'd ask that you go support what we're doing in the store right now, because we have shirts and

00:35:48.900 hats and flags and wallets. And of course our best-selling product, the 12 week battle planner.

00:35:54.180 And not only are you going to look good as you support the mission to reclaim and restore

00:35:57.500 masculinity, but you are going to, at some point have the opportunity to say that you own one of

00:36:03.380 the original order of man products when we reach that global status. And it's a great way to support

00:36:10.100 the mission and support what it is we're doing here. So if you want to look good in the process,

00:36:14.780 you want to say, thanks, you want to give back. You want to support what we're doing.

00:36:17.360 The great way to do that is to head to store.orderofman.com. Again, that's store.orderofman.com.

00:36:24.060 Check it out. Shirts, hats, battle planners, flags, all of it's all over there. Store.orderofman.com.

00:36:30.540 You can check it out after the show for now. I'll get back to my conversation with Jason.

00:36:35.660 I was going to ask, did you ever consider throwing in the towel? I mean, I'm sure that crossed your mind,

00:36:41.280 but was there ever a point where this was seriously like, Hey, if I don't do this, or if this doesn't

00:36:46.860 come together, we're kind of at a point where I might need to consider quitting or however you

00:36:52.480 want to phrase it and moving on to the next part of your life. Yeah. I mean, I didn't ever really

00:37:01.040 have that talk. Now realize life was just, there were other life circumstances. So there was a little

00:37:07.540 bit of a clock ticking and the clock ticking was I was in business school. Okay. So because of the,

00:37:14.000 the graciousness of the American taxpayer, I had the post nine 11 GI bill. So I was,

00:37:18.700 I was not going into debt on, on that front and was, had a little bit of cash coming in,

00:37:24.460 so to say, right. For, for, uh, you know, incidentals and stuff like that. And so that

00:37:29.860 bought me some time. And so between 2009 and 2011, I was in school essentially moonlighting on

00:37:36.760 and then I took the whole summer off and went on a, went on the cross country trip, but I never really

00:37:44.800 had that talk. Like if, if this number doesn't hit, then I'm going to have to, I'm going to have

00:37:52.260 to not do it. For me, it was more like, I didn't really think that I wanted to run a quote backpack

00:37:59.540 company. And so I just didn't, you know, yes, we sell rucksacks or backpacks, but if that's what it

00:38:06.380 took for me to, to do that, to run go rock or to, to, to be an entrepreneur, a businessman,

00:38:14.580 whatever you want to call it. Like I was just, was unwilling to do that. I wanted to do something

00:38:18.680 a little bit different. And the thing that kept calling me the original plan for my wife and I was,

00:38:25.060 I was going to join her in the CIA. Right. And so, you know, coincidentally through her, I met

00:38:32.500 all of the people because I'd been through the hiring process and it became clear that I needed

00:38:37.620 to go join special operations first before I could go to the CIA. Well, she joined the CIA a year after

00:38:42.720 I joined special forces or so. Right. And so I met all of the people who were the, the hirers and

00:38:49.180 they were in the, the special activities division. So the, the paramilitary arm of the CIA

00:38:54.380 and that's 99% of the battle, you know, like getting your foot in the door. And so that was

00:39:01.820 kind of staring at me and I'm living in DC, which is a very kind of government military style town at

00:39:10.220 it, at its core. If you're in that world at all, it feels like it, you know, there's right. And I

00:39:15.260 wanted to continue to make a really big difference for my country. And so it didn't seem like selling

00:39:20.820 backpacks was going to be all that great or all that important. And I, and I knew a lot of people

00:39:25.160 who were going out and doing God's work for America. And I wanted to do that. And so it was

00:39:31.640 more that I just was very torn on, on, on the deepest, most existential level possible, whether

00:39:40.060 this is actually what I wanted to do. And so GORUCK was a hobby, which is kind of a slow death. If

00:39:45.500 you're an entrepreneur now, I can buy you some time if you don't have to ramp up the costs and

00:39:49.500 you can kind of test the waters a little bit. Like I recommend, I recommend two jobs, one paycheck

00:39:54.960 for as long as you can do it. Right. Moonlight. Guess what? Cause the world is not just waiting for

00:40:01.160 you to start your company. It's just not a thing. It is not beating down your door. This is not a

00:40:08.680 thing. It's, it's, and so you, you need to figure it out a little bit. And that's to your earlier

00:40:15.100 question about, you know, did I find myself and I, I figured some stuff out and that, you know,

00:40:22.680 I figured out that this could be about more than selling bags. I just didn't know yet how that could

00:40:29.100 go. And I still had a little bit of time. And so, you know, the clock that was ticking was,

00:40:33.980 was school. And I just, I didn't view it as quicksand, but I was just kind of at a deep level

00:40:40.580 unsatisfied with the idea of being a backpack company in some office somewhere.

00:40:47.960 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can, I can, I can definitely appreciate you going from being in a special forces

00:40:53.300 to now I'm just, I'm selling a product, right? Even though that's not what it is, I could see how

00:40:57.800 you might believe that that's the case. And so now that you have this larger mission in place,

00:41:02.120 it seems like there's much more satisfaction and fulfillment in, in that, as opposed to

00:41:07.120 I'm going to sell some bags. Yeah. I mean, it's all the mission and all the fulfillment. I mean,

00:41:12.200 people are, people are the most important part of your life, whoever you are, they're the most

00:41:16.700 important. And so, you know, it sounds too easy to just say, focus on people. If you want to

00:41:24.400 have a fulfilling career, but it's true. I mean, if you go watch a movie like wall street or something,

00:41:32.020 which is still true, like how many, how many yachts do you need to jet ski behind or water ski

00:41:38.400 behind? Right. I mean, all these things, I mean, it's never enough. And you just, you, you talked

00:41:43.800 to old people. Like, I think, I think grandparents are the greatest race of people on the planet,

00:41:47.960 right? I mean, so much wisdom, it just stuff doesn't bother them. They have a lot of perspective

00:41:53.560 and you meet these people. They've been varying degrees of success and it's the relationships

00:42:00.620 that they have that they, they think about the most and they're the most proud of and

00:42:05.260 that they usually wish they had spent even more time on those. And so I'm cognizant of that. And

00:42:13.100 that's, it's really hard still because if left to my own devices, you know, I will lock myself in a

00:42:21.100 room and, and get to work and just keep pounding and pounding and pounding. And, and so the balance

00:42:27.520 in life is, is kind of the eternal struggle. Well, and the thing that I like that you're talking

00:42:33.840 about is really just enjoying the process because if it is for some destination, you know, for example,

00:42:39.480 I hear people talk about, you know, on a Monday, they're like, Oh, I can't wait for the weekend.

00:42:43.340 Like, okay, well, the weekend comes and goes and then you're back to it. And so then what you wait

00:42:47.640 for the next weekend, like what about the other 80% of the week that you have to live and all you're

00:42:52.880 living for is the last 20% of it. And then it ends and it goes away. And then you're back to the

00:42:57.540 beginning. Yeah. I remember people say, you know, well, I have a job. I'm in, you know, I'm a pressman

00:43:04.080 or I'm in construction or whatever. Like how, like how am I supposed to love that job? I mean, my dad's

00:43:10.020 been a pressman for 40, as old as I am, 41 years. Right. And he, he likes the guys that he works

00:43:16.320 with, the guys and gals that he works with, you know, they've got their sort of camaraderie at

00:43:21.460 the office and, and, you know, and they care, right. So they care about the quality of the

00:43:25.660 work that comes out, but you know, the people in construction, you know, goodwill hunting style,

00:43:30.260 right. I mean, just make it fun. Right. I don't know any way that like being in the army,

00:43:35.320 guess what? It's not that fun all the time. And in fact, it doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

00:43:40.920 It's about the people that you're there with. And you can do that in any type of situation where

00:43:45.700 there are other people. And so that's the trick. And then yes, it's hard work. Everybody's life is

00:43:52.460 hard work. And so, you know, hoping that your life's going to be easy or somehow that easy is

00:43:58.020 better. First off, you're hoping for the wrong thing. Second off, it won't be. So there's a lot

00:44:04.880 of recalibration that's required. And just look, if you hate the people that you work with, if you

00:44:09.980 don't believe in them, if you don't believe in the mission at all, then find a new profession

00:44:14.620 that you don't have to hate so much to only live for the weekends and vacations and escapism,

00:44:20.400 because you need to be present. And there's a way to be present and fulfilled and happy

00:44:25.360 with what you're doing. If you're around people that you enjoy.

00:44:29.780 Definitely. I did want to ask you about something since I knew we're going to have this conversation,

00:44:34.660 because you made a little bit of waves last year with your choice of some of your manufacturing

00:44:40.380 product, shipping that overseas. I'm really curious because I read some articles and have

00:44:44.760 different perspectives. I think I know why you made that decision, but I'm really curious from

00:44:49.140 your perspective, what went into that decision? Because that must've been a tough thing to,

00:44:53.720 a tough call to make.

00:44:56.260 Yeah, it was, it's a very complicated situation. Manufacturing, you know, stop me if I go down the

00:45:02.720 rabbit hole too far, but manufacturing is kind of, let's start with where it will eventually be.

00:45:10.060 It will eventually be robots sewing stuff together. There will be very, very little

00:45:17.180 human labor that goes into this. It's like autonomous driving cars. If you think that

00:45:22.040 your, your great, great grandchildren are going to have the opportunity to be Uber drivers ever,

00:45:26.880 like it's, it's just not going to happen. Right. So this class of people that are getting this work

00:45:31.620 now, like they're further financing a distancing from like that way. Not that that's necessarily,

00:45:40.300 it's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, are those the jobs that we necessarily want or do we want to

00:45:45.220 focus on other things? Anyway, with manufacturing, this is going to happen. You see it in a lot of

00:45:50.520 places. Like think about how much more automation there is in, in car factories in, you know, I went

00:45:56.760 towards surefire headlamps, um, like the, the flashlight company, right. Um, about a decade

00:46:02.720 ago, maybe 2011. And there's a guy walking around with a clipboard. Everything is being, everything is

00:46:11.660 being done with machinery. And so that is going to happen. The more automation that happens in

00:46:19.760 manufacturing, it's, it's not like, I'm not sitting here saying that's for better, for worse. I'm just

00:46:25.360 saying it's going to happen. Okay. So let's just take that as an assumption. And we say, okay, so

00:46:31.240 now you've got so much more capital investment. Now we realize GORUCK's really small in the

00:46:38.980 manufacturing world. Right. Right. When you think about small companies, we're a small company.

00:46:43.840 When you look at the places who are doing the sewing, right. The most work is being done overseas.

00:46:52.580 And so what happens is that those places make significantly higher capital investments in

00:47:01.280 manufacturing. They make significantly larger machine investments in manufacturing. And so

00:47:08.760 over time, what happens is, is that it is less, it's, it's more precise, if you will. The, if, if 50%

00:47:18.680 of the, the, the bag is, Hey, you, you lay the, you lay the fabric out, you cut it with lasers

00:47:24.560 perfectly. Right. And there's all sorts of, everything is cut perfectly and it's just more

00:47:30.300 automated throughout the process. It makes it easier to sew these things. Those are talking

00:47:34.780 millions of dollars of machines to do over and over and over. No doubt. Sure. Now, American

00:47:39.980 manufacturing is some places have that, but there is not growth of American manufacturing

00:47:48.260 because there is not supply growth of people who want to sew. The only people, and this is like,

00:47:56.280 let's pull the curtain back. The only people who are sewing at scale in any of the factories I've ever

00:48:03.040 been are first generation Americans. They're, they're immigrants and God bless them because they work their

00:48:08.780 asses off. Right. I mean, the immigrant class is one that I hugely support. And, and I think it's

00:48:17.000 America doing what we do best, right? The great melting pot. That said, there is this problem where

00:48:24.080 the factory owners are unable to grow because the step-up costs are so high, right? The step-up costs of,

00:48:31.840 of massive capital investments coupled with labor that's 10 times higher. And I'm, I'm, that's probably

00:48:41.500 not the right number, but it's significantly, significantly higher. Now it's like, can we make

00:48:49.600 more, can we make fewer, better stuff in America? We can, we, we have master craftsmen here.

00:48:58.180 We have people who can make as good of stuff as anywhere on the planet. Like we have that.

00:49:05.180 It's not dead. When you start to say, Hey, for a business to diversify its manufacturing and to

00:49:15.080 bring on kind of a compete, if you will, in a different sector, right? So GORUCK is straddling

00:49:22.560 this line between the, the everyday carry kind of that world, which, which is, can heavily lean on

00:49:31.560 American manufacturing and fitness, right? And the fitness side of the house is a lot more competitive

00:49:38.660 and the prices, like we were already seeing it. There are people coming on who are, who are building

00:49:45.740 stuff for rucking and they're not doing it in America. And eventually as we promote and build

00:49:53.020 and grow rucking, we're kind of the tip of the spear on this. We have to make sure that we're not

00:50:00.220 just completely undercut by someone else coming on and knocking off all our stuff and offering it at,

00:50:06.960 you know, a third, the price, like say Arctic did the Yeti or whatever the case may be. Right.

00:50:11.420 So then you can kind of say, okay, well, why don't you just keep the high ground on the manufacturing

00:50:17.740 front? And it's like, we are, I mean, the, the quality of the stuff that's happening, I'm not going

00:50:23.840 to say it's, it's better overseas. I'm going to say that if I want to build, it's easier to scale

00:50:33.060 quality overseas at the right places. Like saying overseas manufacturing is kind of like saying,

00:50:39.720 you know, I know someone in Germany named Wolf, have you met him? Right. I mean, there's so many

00:50:46.300 different kinds of overseas manufacturing and the place that we're in is, I mean, it's, it's a tier

00:50:53.380 one place. I mean, huge capital investments. It's, it's almost like a city unto itself. Right. I mean,

00:51:00.260 the, the, the workers come, there's lunch, there's dinner, whatever the case may be, right. Or

00:51:06.000 breakfast and lunch rather. Um, and, and so, you know, it's, it's really messy, man. Like there's

00:51:13.760 lots of trade-offs and some people will say you should have kept everything in America here till

00:51:18.880 forever. I mean, I will say 38% cost increase to us in not a long period of time. That's, and that's,

00:51:29.240 that's what happened on, on the, the American side is that is because there is not enough.

00:51:36.820 The industry is not in a great position, right? I'm sure it's even worse with COVID.

00:51:41.800 Oh yeah. And now you look at COVID, right? So, so I believe that circling back to the, to the

00:51:50.840 original part of what's going to happen is increased automation of manufacturing. If people are nostalgic

00:51:58.140 for one person building your thing from start to finish, that will happen. If you look at something

00:52:04.640 like Levi's has this program where you take their five of ones and they, you know, they take your

00:52:09.320 measurements and they will, they will build it from start to finish for you. Like a guy or a small team,

00:52:14.900 a team, you know, or you look at like Beck boots in Amarillo, Texas, which was a place I visited in 2010.

00:52:20.940 They literally send you a last kit for your foot. You send them, you, you, you, you stand in their

00:52:29.200 last kit. They make your last, they keep your last on file in Amarillo, Texas, and they make your boot

00:52:35.780 out of the last that's specifically designed for your foot. That will always continue to be there.

00:52:42.000 That will be extremely high priced with extreme amounts of, of craftsmanship, right?

00:52:49.260 Right. It's no longer a commodity at that point. That's a, that's an item, a specialty item that

00:52:53.240 somebody's willing to pay and invest for. Yes. And that will always be around. And that might even

00:52:59.060 be around at, that might even be around at higher scale, right? But for us, when you start to look

00:53:06.620 at, okay, so we need to be able to scale the highest quality rucking gear on the planet. It cannot

00:53:14.600 break. It has to perform. Well, what we saw was what happens in another 10 years when costs go up

00:53:21.840 even more this time, right? What's going to happen then. And so we still have a lot of manufacturing in

00:53:27.660 the U S we have some overseas right now. Well, you know, volume wise, we have, we have a lot overseas

00:53:34.720 as well. And we have a lot of dollar value in America with not as much in inventory units wise.

00:53:42.740 Now the, the other part is when you look at COVID, what happened was a lot of the manufacturers

00:53:50.400 started chasing the PPE stuff, right? Because all of a sudden there's this big demand and rightfully

00:53:56.460 so. And they got shut down or they volunteered to, to not work for periods of, of months. Right.

00:54:04.800 And that would have just crushed us. And so meanwhile, we were able to do a lot of like,

00:54:11.200 say our sandbags, right? Sandbags, high demand item. Since the beginning of COVID people can work

00:54:17.040 out in their garage. They can, they can work out with them anywhere. Right. It's great.

00:54:20.080 Versatility. Sure. I've been, I've been working a lot of sandbag stuff in my garage,

00:54:24.900 my front yard, invite my buddies over. We have more sandbags. I mean, we, we could,

00:54:29.040 we could scale up our sandbag stuff in three months at levels that would take us forever to

00:54:35.480 get there in America. Right. And so there's kind of a, it's not a safety net. It's just,

00:54:41.080 it's a diversification of manufacturing. And we're having to revisit some of that because,

00:54:48.000 you know, the demand curve for some of our stuff is hugely different now, the training and fitness

00:54:53.820 gear. So some people would say, okay, well that was hugely damaging for your brand. Well,

00:54:58.980 you know, I'm sure there's a niche of people who would say that I will say, and the volume of buyers

00:55:05.380 is not necessarily the only litmus test of where the brand is. Right. The fitness gear that we have

00:55:11.080 sold exceedingly well since COVID started has been the stuff that's been built overseas along with

00:55:18.260 US made ruck plates. Right. So the weights that go in the rucks have all sold really, really well.

00:55:23.060 The rucker, sandbag and ruck plates. That has been what we have, we have done the, the most volume of

00:55:28.680 since COVID started. And, and so when you start to look at GR1, GR2, GR3, GR1 still does really well

00:55:38.000 because it's kind of like since the beginning and it's just a multi-tool of, of tough, right?

00:55:42.640 Right. It's just the original. Sure. There are, there are certain items that we're going to bring

00:55:48.080 back and make exclusively in the States. And that's, that's, that's good. I feel really good

00:55:54.060 about that. Right now we've got to kind of work through some other stuff until that happens,

00:55:58.800 but there, there is actually a really good strategy, like the fitness and the training stuff,

00:56:05.620 that stuff's all going to be built in, it's going to be built overseas. And we haven't,

00:56:09.620 we have a great partner that builds really high quality stuff. And, and we've done a lot of,

00:56:14.380 so let me put this in perspective. I'll give you one more anecdote. There is a sample room at our,

00:56:20.380 at our factory outside Saigon in, in Vietnam, the sample room, which is integrated with an art,

00:56:27.420 with an R and D center, if you will, which they can do patterns and make pattern changes and do all

00:56:33.100 that. The sample room has 130 sewers. Okay. That is enormous. Our first, our first factory that we

00:56:43.360 built Rucksack in in America probably had 20 sewers and a lot of them were home sewers. The next place

00:56:49.240 that we went, the next place that we went, that we were with for years and years, and we keep going

00:56:54.700 up in places that have higher quality, higher standards, and coincidentally more automation.

00:56:59.600 So it's, it's all of it is what you keep looking for. And then those ones become in really high

00:57:03.500 demand. You can always go backwards. They, sure. We could have gone back to some of the places that

00:57:09.100 we were with a long time ago and said, we want these huge orders and they'll take it, but that

00:57:13.900 would be a reduction in our standards. Right. And you have to retrain people and it's really hard,

00:57:18.240 but the next place that we went to and were there for, for five years out in Seattle probably has,

00:57:24.220 it probably have about a hundred sewers, a hundred line sewers. And it's like, that's what the sample

00:57:31.740 room is in, at our place in Saigon. So the ability to kind of make changes and perfect things and

00:57:39.780 perfect patterns and test, it happens so much faster. Like the sample room and the place where

00:57:46.500 we're at right now in America, it's a part-time sewer. Like one. How can you scale that? Of

00:57:54.100 course. Sure. So then you have your own R and D center and they're doing stuff and they put our

00:57:59.600 R and D center on the ruck side, the, the sewer part is, is two people, right? And it's, it's full

00:58:05.300 time, mind you, but there's just a, if you, if you tweak something the wrong way, it's kind of,

00:58:12.260 you've got to test that for a bit. And then when it's not quite right, then you got to test it again.

00:58:15.920 Whereas we can say, Hey, send me six, make this change. One, two, three, four, five, six. I want

00:58:21.600 to test this at, I want to test this at, you know, uh, two millimeters, four millimeters and six

00:58:28.120 millimeters. And they will send it and we will label them two, four, six. And then you test them and

00:58:33.260 you see, okay, well, this one works better over weight, time, and distance. And you say, okay,

00:58:37.260 this one's the go. And you, you, you test them. It just accelerates things. So it's not just about,

00:58:43.480 you know, lower, like everyone lower the cost, right? Lower the cost. That's what everybody

00:58:49.320 thinks. We have done nothing but increase our costs of American manufacturing since we've started

00:58:55.420 intentionally, mind you, we've, we've gone to better places and those better places, even with higher

00:59:01.240 automation have charged more because they have to make back their capital investments on their,

00:59:05.500 on, on their infrastructure. It's messy, man. Right. It's really messy. And it's really nuanced.

00:59:11.480 And it's like, I can sit here and wave a flag and say, I love American. I love American

00:59:15.360 manufacturing because I do. And we build more now in America than we built in the first,

00:59:21.480 whatever, five years of our existence, you know? And this is just what it takes sometimes to make

00:59:27.780 hard decisions out of business. Well, and I think the fascinating thing with this too, Jason, is that

00:59:32.760 what we're talking about here wraps into what you were saying earlier, which is you're figuring it

00:59:37.480 out. Right. And, and that's, that's the cost of doing business is not knowing the direction,

00:59:43.060 not knowing the path, trying this experimenting here, tweaking this, adjusting that, fixing this

00:59:48.880 mistake, doubling down on this thing that went well. And you're figuring out the path. And this is

00:59:53.460 what people and men need to understand is that it isn't all going to lay out itself before. It's not

00:59:58.440 like the red carpet. It just rolls out everywhere you step. It's like, you got to lay the framework

01:00:02.900 itself. Yeah. So, okay, exactly. And so then I'll take the counter position to this, which is,

01:00:08.320 there is absolutely a place for American manufacturing. And it's, and it's, it's this,

01:00:13.080 because we learned this, we had to learn this the hard way. The MOQs, the minimum order quantities

01:00:18.180 of the stuff that you, that we get from, from Vietnam, it's a thousand units. Okay. So that means you

01:00:25.020 have to build a thousand and then you have to sell the thousand or else you're just carrying

01:00:29.320 inventory. Right. Then you have the inventory. Sure. Right. And so it doesn't allow you to do

01:00:34.340 things like new colors or like change stuff with small runs and get creative like that. So then you

01:00:41.800 say, okay, well, what's the MOQ? What's the minimums out of America? Well, the MOQs for us are 80

01:00:48.340 out of America. So we can do certain things here and we can do it better and faster.

01:00:56.080 And because the lead times are, are less here as well. Right. So then you say, okay, so three months

01:01:02.000 here versus more over there. Cause then it's got to be on a boat for a month after they get the fat.

01:01:08.860 It's just, it's longer. So you're looking at four or five, sometimes six months from overseas,

01:01:12.720 which requires bigger bets on inventory, right? You've got to bet, you've got to forecast,

01:01:17.000 you've got to make bigger bets and then you've got to, then you've got to sell it once it comes

01:01:21.520 in or else you're sitting on inventory. Well, guess what? Right now, now we're still sitting

01:01:26.640 on some inventory that we ordered in the first run of stuff that came from Vietnam. Not because

01:01:31.400 it's bad, but because we just missed the demand curve. So many, yeah. And we had to order so much

01:01:37.000 to kind of get started with that, with that factory. So now we're kind of getting into this

01:01:42.700 Zen that we see of, we went too far here. We pulled back too much in America. COVID took

01:01:50.580 everything. It's like chaos, you know, scrambling all together. It's like, it's like from a Batman

01:01:55.840 Begins, right? Where the joke was like, introduce a little chaos and every, everyone goes crazy.

01:02:00.620 Right. And so, but what we're seeing is we feel the dust settling and how we are going to manage

01:02:07.140 the business. And we made some big bets and we made some big mistakes like that. And, but we always,

01:02:13.860 we always kept our true North, which was, this is quality gear. It comes with a lifetime,

01:02:17.800 lifetime guarantee and it's going to work. And so what we're going to have is this blend of

01:02:22.060 the American stuff. We're able to do some different stuff with because it's, it's lower quantities and

01:02:28.780 shorter lead times. Whereas overseas is more of the training stuff, which we're getting an enormous

01:02:33.800 tailwind behind. And so, you know, you start to say, okay, that's a little bit easier to make bigger

01:02:39.900 bets. Yeah. And we're just seeing that side and, and so how to blend those. Guess what guys? It's

01:02:46.620 hard. It's, it's not easy. We don't want it to be easy because if it were, anyone could do it.

01:02:52.520 And so we're having to figure stuff out and just like, it's not like we're just finding ourselves.

01:02:58.460 Like you don't just go to the mountaintop like Moses and come back down with all the answers and

01:03:02.780 just tell the disciples. It doesn't work like that. You're always trying to find the next peak.

01:03:07.720 You're always trying to climb higher. Sometimes you got to go down the first peak a little bit

01:03:11.960 to, to, to find the Valley, to get back up next to the, to the next peak. And you've got to live

01:03:16.880 with yourself in that Valley. And sometimes it sucks, man, you know, but you've got to just keep

01:03:22.840 looking up and be grateful for the people that are around you. And then you've got to get back to

01:03:27.900 climate. And so that's where we are. I mean, I will tell you this to a certain extent, COVID kind

01:03:34.180 of made us seem a little bit smarter than we actually are. It's, it's been a big accident that

01:03:42.300 it just kind of made it very clear to us what we needed to do on the manufacturing front because

01:03:50.600 demand curves and just the nature of where the growth was and is coming from. So it actually made

01:03:56.860 life in some ways more focused for us and focus is a blessing. Yeah. It's powerful, man. I love it.

01:04:04.260 So that's a long winded answer. Did I answer your question? No, it is. It's good because I think the

01:04:08.900 lesson is, you know, obviously a lot of the guys that listen to this are not in manufacturing

01:04:13.540 necessarily, but I think the lesson here is what we said is that it's messy, right? You, you,

01:04:18.360 sometimes you do it right. Sometimes you do it wrong. It's probably a combination of both

01:04:22.320 and you just keep figuring it out. And that's the solution. You just keep going, keep moving along

01:04:28.540 and you'll start to work it out. Yeah. Don't compromise your core principles in that because,

01:04:34.740 you know, if like to me, if, if I'm putting a tutu on singing special forces songs, that's

01:04:39.520 compromising my core principles, right? You know, integrity, respect, you know, honor your roots,

01:04:44.600 right? Stuff like that. Right. But you know, some stuff you've got to just venture out and

01:04:49.400 sometimes you've got to do it alone. It hopefully you can bring, bring your, your team with you,

01:04:54.560 but you've just, there's no other way to do it. You just got to venture out. You got to get going.

01:05:00.760 You got to just get started and get after it. You will make mistakes. It will happen.

01:05:06.440 Oh, it will. Just brace for it and, and figure out what's, what's next after you,

01:05:11.000 you lick your wounds a little bit. Absolutely. Brother, I appreciate you coming on and talking

01:05:15.520 about it. Um, guys go pick up a copy of the book. It's actually, it's a completely different book

01:05:21.640 than what you're used to. It's not like a self-help thing, but it just talks about the

01:05:26.880 realness of your journey, which is what I really appreciated about it. Uh, and the fact of what

01:05:31.840 you're talking about today. So man, Jason, I appreciate you looking forward to seeing what

01:05:35.700 you guys continue to do and, and be involved to some degree. Thanks a lot for joining us, man.

01:05:40.160 Thanks so much, Ryan. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

01:05:42.420 Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Jason McCarthy. I hope you enjoyed

01:05:48.120 the podcast and that you're walking away with a new perspective about what it means to be

01:05:53.380 successful. You know, I think a lot of us tend to believe that the successful have always been

01:05:57.460 successful, that they have that Midas touch where everything they touch turns to gold. And it's just

01:06:03.460 not reality. Jason illustrated that perfectly. His book illustrates that perfectly. Uh, it's hard to

01:06:09.040 read at times because there's some very personal situations and stories in there of hardship and

01:06:14.780 heartache and loss and frustration, but that's, that's the ride. You know, if you want to be

01:06:20.440 successful in your life, whether it's business, like we're talking about here or life generally,

01:06:24.360 there's going to be highs and lows. There's going to be ups and downs. Uh, and, and I think Jason

01:06:29.020 did a great job illustrating the ups and downs to get him to where he is today. So guys, if you

01:06:33.260 resonated with this podcast, please reach out to Jason, uh, go participate in a go rock event,

01:06:37.860 look at their products. Their backpacks are, are second to none. Absolutely incredible. I have one

01:06:43.280 myself, uh, and, uh, just connect with us and let us know what you thought about the conversation

01:06:47.780 and what served you best. That's what this is all about guys, helping you, serving you,

01:06:52.940 giving you what you need to thrive in your professional and personal life. So, uh, please,

01:06:57.200 if you would subscribe, uh, leave a rating and review that goes a long way in promoting the visibility

01:07:01.340 of what we're doing here. I've got some amazing, more amazing guests, I should say coming up. So

01:07:05.600 please subscribe, leave that rating review, and also go check out the store. Like I mentioned

01:07:09.700 earlier, store.orderofman.com. Great way to support what we're doing here and look good in

01:07:15.600 the process and get some practical tools that are going to help you level up your life. All right,

01:07:20.300 guys, we'll be back tomorrow for my ask me anything with Mr. Kip Sorensen. But until then,

01:07:25.320 go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:07:28.820 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your

01:07:33.060 life and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - September 29, 2020

Building a Business, Building a Life ｜ JASON MCCARTHY

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