Chase Vs. Pursue, Re-Writing Your Scripts, and Leading with Clarity ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Words per Minute
182.5594
Summary
On this episode of the Outdoor Leadership Podcast, we have a special guest on the show this week, Kip Pinnell. Kip is a seasoned outdoor guide and has been in the industry for a long time. He is also a husband, father, husband, and father of three boys. In this episode, we talk about what it's like to work on President's Day and how to deal with the stress of it. We also talk about chasing and pursuing.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Any time that you get triggered, you need to rewrite the script.
00:00:03.940
I thought about what you said about the trash, and first, I want to say you're right.
00:00:07.060
I did tell you I'd take out the trash, and I will work on that.
00:00:10.740
But I was upset because I had a really challenging day.
00:00:17.520
It's hard for me to go out into battle some days,
00:00:20.260
and this is one of those days, and I felt like that comment
00:00:25.680
So just want to let you know where I'm coming from.
00:00:28.940
I just wanted to explain to you how I'm feeling.
00:00:32.780
and build trust and rapport with somebody you love and care about,
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Not that, you know, we shouldn't maybe honor some presidents, not all.
00:01:05.380
I've probably been going for, gosh, this is probably my sixth or maybe seventh year.
00:01:13.020
It's one of those things where you see a bunch of old friends
00:01:15.240
that you would still consider them friends, but you only see them once per year.
00:01:19.260
And I take my three boys up with me, and we go wander the booths and catch up.
00:01:23.340
I saw Josh with Montana Knife Company, the guys over at Big Chino Outfitters, Mountain
00:01:35.260
If I keep listing them, I'm going to miss somebody.
00:01:43.020
So I made the mistake of going on Saturday, though.
00:01:54.580
I usually go on a Thursday and a Friday, but I don't know.
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I made a mistake this time and paid for it with getting bumped into people.
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It's such a cool experience, though, to see everybody.
00:02:16.260
We had a couple of false starts, and we had some technology issues.
00:02:22.220
Let's just jump into questions and see if we can make this work.
00:02:26.380
So we're going to fill the questions from the Iron Council.
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To learn more about the Iron Council, go to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.
00:02:33.460
Our first question, Will Pinnell, during your Friday Field Notes, you mentioned a difference
00:02:42.460
Often, people would assume that they are synonymous.
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In my view, pursuing has more intentional meaning, where chasing seems to be somewhat sporadic.
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I'd like to hear your view on these two terms and their meaning.
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This can be in the realm of picking up new clients, growing your business, like whatever
00:03:11.240
When you think of chasing, what we think about often is somebody or something running away
00:03:19.140
There's no chase if something is running away from us.
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So whether you're trying to chase a woman around and she's not interested, you look
00:03:29.500
And the faster you run, the more she runs because she doesn't want to be caught.
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When I started early in my financial planning practice, I really struggled because I didn't
00:03:46.960
know how to attract clients in a good and healthy way.
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And to me, pursuit means that I'm interested in that thing, whether it's a woman or a client
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And I, as a man with a steady frame, am going to leave an opening and give opportunities for
00:04:07.060
her or them or whoever it is to accept my advances.
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Somebody who's chasing is running all over the place, looking like a fool, being desperate
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and the person or the thing is just fleeing further from them.
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And my job is to create openings and opportunities and let that thing decide if it's interested
00:04:34.900
in some sort of personal, professional or romantic relationship with me.
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I think what we as men do is we go so hard and we end up undermining another person's
00:04:47.480
agency and sovereignty while we try to wrestle control over somebody else's life because we
00:04:54.700
And if you want to maintain your own sovereignty and your own agency, then you have to be willing
00:05:01.260
to acknowledge and respect and honor somebody else's ability to choose as well.
00:05:08.580
I create opportunities and then I let the chips fall where they may.
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And if you look back at your financial practice, what would occur when you chased clients?
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And really what this comes down to is abundance.
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If you have an abundance of opportunity, you'll be less likely to chase things that aren't
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But if you're scarce and you don't know how to acquire resources and you don't know how
00:05:52.240
to develop your skill sets and you aren't somebody who has authority and credibility with
00:05:55.680
other people, then yeah, you're bound to chase.
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But if you do, then you can just open up opportunities and people like magnets are drawn to you instead
00:06:07.820
Well, and if you're chasing, then it's not about serving me, right?
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And that's where the desperation comes across real negative because it's like, well, this
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And they question intent when the focus is desperate chasing.
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It's like even in a relationship, let's say when you were younger, there was a woman chasing
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If, if a woman is like overly attached, I don't, that doesn't, that's not attractive to me.
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Somebody who's like repelled by and doesn't invest some energy, but there is a middle ground.
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And if that's true about a woman chasing you, then it's certainly true about you chasing
00:07:11.640
a woman or like I said, a client or whatever else.
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Like how many times are you going to chase around something that doesn't want to be caught?
00:07:19.880
And then what could you have done in the meantime?
00:07:23.260
What other opportunities, what other women could you have met because you decided to have
00:07:27.300
some self-respect and dignity and just create opportunities for people who are attracted to you?
00:07:34.580
All right, Jeremy Kofi, I did an off-cycle review of an employee and gave her a raise.
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Her, she promptly shared her good news with other key employees this past Friday, creating
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Looking at it, honestly, I screwed up and should have either waited to do the one review or done
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What advice do you have to address these employees who have hurt feelings?
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It feels disingenuous to suddenly schedule everyone for a review post hoc.
00:08:04.580
But I wonder if there's a correct path forward given where things stand.
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Well, first of all, I actually don't think you screwed it up by doing a one-off review with
00:08:15.120
an employee who you thought was performing well.
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So don't think for a second that that was the mistake.
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The mistake was that you didn't communicate boundaries to her.
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If I was having that performance review with you, Kip, I'd say, listen, this is not our
00:08:45.180
Normally, we'd have reviews halfway through the year or at the end of the year.
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And I'd like to keep this conversation confidential between you and I because I don't want other
00:08:56.640
people misinterpreting it or reading into something that it's not.
00:09:00.080
But I've noticed that you've been performing really well.
00:09:03.560
And I'm very happy with your performance at the company and how you grow the business or
00:09:13.040
And, you know, you have that conversation and then you tell her, hey, by the way, I want
00:09:17.860
to remind you that this is not typical practice and I've never done this before.
00:09:23.100
So it would help me, you and the rest of the team if you kept the discussion that we're
00:09:29.100
having between us so that it doesn't create any other contention or animosity or hurt feelings
00:09:45.400
So now, you know, don't just tell people because she's just excited.
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So, you know, her heart's probably in the right place now.
00:10:01.720
And then we'll go back to the second part of the question.
00:10:04.260
How do you address this with the rest of the teammates?
00:10:08.140
So regarding the off first off, I'm a huge advocate for promotions and raises when they're
00:10:15.340
deserved and not in some arbitrary yearly review cycle process.
00:10:22.420
If you have someone that's winning and they're kicking ass, promote them.
00:10:28.420
Oh, well, our process is only no, that's silliness, right?
00:10:33.220
So, so I, I don't fall into that trap of like, oh, we have to give everyone a raise at the
00:10:42.980
And what you definitely don't want to do, and we'll get into that, the pandering of the
00:10:54.600
Now, most companies can't do it and they can't do it because they're not clear what is winning
00:11:03.080
The more you can go in that direction, Jeremy, the better because you're not promoting anybody.
00:11:12.240
They're doing the necessary work to get the raise.
00:11:14.620
When you can get that clear and then you get people that are upset.
00:11:20.840
I don't hold the cards of you, of your promotion.
00:11:32.540
I think she, to your point, Ryan, I don't think she was malicious.
00:11:38.040
Um, and let's segue into these other people that are upset because I mean, that's the,
00:11:42.740
that's the big issue here is why are they upset?
00:11:47.180
I mean, I, I think you, you touched on it a little bit when you said, um,
00:11:52.200
I, I do agree with you as long as the standard's clear.
00:11:55.700
I don't think this falls in the realm of pay transparency because an employee shouldn't
00:12:01.580
be just flapping their gums about what they get paid without a clear directive to do.
00:12:07.480
Um, I think it creates a lot of contention and frustration.
00:12:13.440
Well, I was just going to say you have to, if you're going to go down the path of transparency
00:12:18.380
around pay, then you go and prepare all the things that allows you to do that.
00:12:23.600
But you just don't go mid cycle and go, we're going to start being trade chance, trade,
00:12:29.300
Because half your employees will be pissed when they find out that pay bands are off,
00:12:37.260
So as far as fixing it, here's what I would do.
00:12:40.120
And I'm actually, I might be stealing your thunder a little bit.
00:12:42.400
Cause I think you would say this is first we have to identify the problem.
00:12:46.180
I can't tell you how many times, so we've got our, our brotherhood.
00:12:52.960
And I can't tell you how many times I've heard from people who are well-intentioned,
00:12:56.880
who will say, right, everybody's pissed because of this thing.
00:13:07.720
And then that person who's bringing it to my attention to do it in the right way says,
00:13:19.860
And so you have to be careful because what you could do is if you just assume everybody's
00:13:24.700
mad is you could bring, bring a big company meeting into play and then you could piss off
00:13:31.220
So you, you need to talk with this employee and sit her down and say, Hey, you're not
00:13:38.760
Just want to let you know, you're not in trouble.
00:13:39.980
I have a little cleanup to do in the future when we have these conversations, unless stated
00:13:45.000
otherwise, they're between you and I not in trouble again, but who, who did you share
00:13:55.200
Cause if there's one person that's upset, just bring the one person in and talk with
00:14:03.120
Rob's upset because he asked for a raise last month.
00:14:06.060
And you said, no, Sally's upset because she thinks Laura's lazy, right?
00:14:15.480
So I, you know, I wouldn't handle this on a company wide thing.
00:14:18.280
I might put together some standards about how pay raises and performance reviews work
00:14:24.240
If you don't already have that in place, because this is showing something that might be a gap
00:14:29.560
And they're like, Oh yeah, this happens all the time.
00:14:31.540
And I like what you said too, Kip, about getting clear about what is winning and what deserves
00:14:37.540
And when we do performance reviews, but if somebody's upset, I would bring them in and
00:14:43.300
I'd say, Kip, um, I know you've heard some things about Sally getting a promotion.
00:14:47.280
And, um, I heard that maybe you felt, um, unimportant or you felt bothered by that.
00:14:54.480
And rather than jump to conclusions, do you mind sharing with me what's going on?
00:14:58.640
And then you share, and then I explain, and then we're like, cool, drive on.
00:15:05.460
That's, that's how I would handle this on a one-to-one basis.
00:15:08.120
I also don't know, Jeremy, how big of a, uh, organization you have.
00:15:12.280
So I don't know how many employees we're talking about either.
00:15:16.780
Well, and what, what I love about your counsel, Ryan, it's, it teaches them that they can express
00:15:27.120
I didn't get in trouble and Ryan was open to getting feedback that I was upset about
00:15:31.740
Like we just built some relationship capital with them and we taught our employees that
00:15:38.060
when you have an upset, feel free to come to me and let me know what it is, right?
00:15:44.180
If you really think about this, Jeremy, how awesome is it when you have a scenario within
00:15:48.680
an organization where an employee goes, Hey boss, um, I heard someone got a promotion.
00:15:57.380
How do I improve and perform better so I can make more?
00:16:03.620
You want employees going, Hey, I want a promotion too.
00:16:08.200
The only time we don't want that is when we can't answer the, the question, you got to
00:16:15.780
You want employees going, I want to raise, I want to become better.
00:16:25.700
So man, get clear on how and what they, what is, what is required to get a promotion.
00:16:36.300
Someone gets a promoted and what, what do you know?
00:16:55.020
And I've done this, Jimmy, I promise you can have an organizations where every promotion
00:17:01.440
If you can't communicate, someone got promoted, you have other problems.
00:17:06.800
Leadership is holding the cards and the rules of performance, and they need not to do that.
00:17:30.980
Let them be clear on what's required and let them run.
00:17:37.760
It's just, there's so much weight lost or less weight as leaders when it's out there and
00:17:43.860
people understand what's required of them to get a promotion.
00:17:46.880
You don't want that weight of holding that and it's unclear to you and you're not sure
00:17:52.780
So figure out how do you put it back into the control and empower the employees to manage
00:18:04.120
It's funny because somebody just messaged me and they're like, hey, every time Kip uses
00:18:23.040
But in some cases, I don't know a definite word either.
00:18:28.380
I'm like, yeah, I need to maybe read more and become more intelligent.
00:18:31.840
So I have a better word to use, but that's funny.
00:18:34.640
I wrote down here that ambiguity kills performance when, when people aren't clear.
00:18:41.260
And it's also, we have to remember that we as human beings operate through incentives
00:18:48.580
So we'll show up because we're incentivized to do so.
00:18:54.720
Sometimes it's acknowledgement and recognition.
00:18:56.600
Sometimes it's just the feeling of a performance.
00:19:01.880
Sometimes it's, you'll go to prison if you do something legal or you'll be ostracized
00:19:10.460
So you have to consider what are you incentivizing through ambiguity, poor performance, frankly.
00:19:17.860
So, and, and look, I want to translate this to, to fatherhood, because this might be kind
00:19:23.060
of a more unique situation for everybody that might be listening, but the same holds true
00:19:28.060
I've got four kids and sometimes certain kids go on trips with me and others don't.
00:19:33.620
And sometimes somebody gets a prize or an acknowledgement or a job well done and others
00:19:39.860
And so when my kids say, well, how come he got to go and how come they got this?
00:19:46.000
It's like, because this is what they did and this is why we're doing it.
00:19:50.260
And then you just explain it and you say, Hey, if you would like that acknowledgement or
00:19:54.720
you would like to go on a trip, then let's figure something out and talk about what that
00:19:58.500
So guys don't think just because you're not in Jeremy's position, this conversation doesn't
00:20:02.960
apply to you as, as old school parents would say, life's not fair.
00:20:09.420
And it, and I would say life's not, it's not that it's not fair.
00:20:21.060
You don't deserve the same benefits or lack thereof as another person.
00:20:27.840
So as a leader in your home or in your business, make sure people understand why it's not equal
00:20:33.800
and what they can do to be incentivized in a way that's meaningful to them.
00:20:42.900
You're an example of the kids asking on, you know, why didn't I get kudos or why don't
00:20:49.840
What's the default assumption if you don't provide the clarity that it's tied to effort
00:21:09.780
And mark my word, whether it's her kids or if it's an employees, they will move to, uh,
00:21:18.560
It's because I'm not liked, which then is what a no win situation.
00:21:42.700
I didn't look, uh, not a question, but you should track down the late Steve Irwin's dad.
00:21:47.180
If he's still alive, his son and grandson both seem to have turned out strong men.
00:21:54.920
I don't know how old Steve Irwin's son is, but it would be cool to have his grandfather
00:22:07.700
What are some beliefs or experiences that you've had as a child that you carried into adulthood?
00:22:12.660
How are those experiences or beliefs shaping or hindering the man that you need to be?
00:22:19.220
I need to look at these questions a little bit closer before we, because I need to be
00:22:24.980
I mean, everything that I think about myself from the time I was a kid shapes who I am.
00:22:31.880
I, I'm going to think about it and just like punt a little bit here.
00:22:36.560
But I think the most important thing is not really, it's not specifically what we did
00:22:51.600
Because the reality is, is that we have been programmed from the time we were little boys,
00:22:56.540
even before we could talk, probably in our mother's womb, where we started to shape our
00:23:02.920
And it's so ingrained into who we are that we don't really even think about it anymore.
00:23:10.860
So my son, I was at lunch the other day with my youngest son and he said, Hey dad, what
00:23:23.360
I'm like, no, well, it's made of, I'm like, I don't know.
00:23:31.380
And I said, yeah, two parts, hydrogen, one part oxygen, but like, we all know that, but
00:23:36.700
it took me a minute because it's, I don't think about it.
00:23:40.360
I just drink it or swim in it or bathe in it or shower in it.
00:23:49.000
We don't spend any time thinking about why we behave that way, why we acted that way.
00:23:55.220
How, what, what was it about that response that got me triggered?
00:24:04.380
Um, I, I think I had some really limiting beliefs around money for a long time because
00:24:10.600
I grew up in a situation, I wouldn't say poverty, but money was tight and we were strict and
00:24:15.200
money didn't go on, grow on trees and a penny saved is a penny earned.
00:24:18.980
And so it shaped a lot of the way that I looked at money.
00:24:23.000
Um, I had somebody in my life who was very wealthy, very successful businessman, and he
00:24:31.980
Equated being a jerk with having lots of money.
00:24:34.940
Of course, that's the connection a young child would make.
00:24:37.820
And so I thought if I had a lot of money, then I was a jerk or everybody who had a lot
00:24:42.820
It's so wild how all this stuff just piles on and we have to rewrite the script every
00:24:49.680
day, rewrite that programming, upgrade the programming maybe is a better way to say it.
00:24:57.820
I think that's a great answer because the reality of it, that's where we fail.
00:25:01.460
It's not so much in the, in like what belief did what it's, are we even self aware to know
00:25:10.820
that a lot of our actions are rooted in these beliefs and agreements that we've made throughout
00:25:17.580
Most people aren't even aware enough to challenge the actions or our response to these things.
00:25:29.520
I mean, there's, we could spend an hour, I think, talking about different belief systems.
00:25:35.180
The one thing I wanted to add for the sake of the question though, Ryan is what's beautiful
00:25:41.820
about our pasts is they're always with us and we can always choose to learn from them.
00:25:50.700
So at any moment, if I didn't learn from my past, I can choose to learn from it today.
00:25:56.040
I could decide that I'm going to grow from that past today.
00:25:59.500
And maybe I've held it and maybe it was a negative response all of my life.
00:26:06.860
So I think being aware of it and then choosing to learn from it.
00:26:12.880
And I think that's how we ultimately have a healthy relationship is learning from it,
00:26:16.940
whether it's a good experience or negative experience, learn it to pivot, to grow and to
00:26:24.160
And you'll have a healthy relationship with the past, regardless of what it was.
00:26:34.660
And I've, I've taken this advice and it's worked well and I've not taken it and it doesn't go
00:26:39.320
So anytime that you get triggered, you need to rewrite the script.
00:26:49.160
So if you're white, if you come home from work today and your wife says something to you
00:26:53.720
and you get all pissed off and you hear, you feel your blood pressure rising and it's
00:26:58.840
starting to boil and you're getting mad and you're about to say something dumb, pause,
00:27:13.300
You can say that, that bothered me, that, that triggers me a little bit.
00:27:20.580
And if you've never done that, she's gonna be like, what the hell?
00:27:22.700
Like she's going to be super confused, but you say, hold on, hold on.
00:27:29.900
I'll come back to it, but can we just talk about something else?
00:27:34.580
She would actually respect that more than you just flipping your lid by the way.
00:27:46.880
She said, I didn't take out the trash this morning.
00:27:49.860
And that pissed me off because I spent all day at work, busting my ass.
00:27:59.380
My boss was up my ass about some dumb thing that wasn't actually my fault.
00:28:02.980
And the least she could do is just show a little gratitude for me going to work for nine hours.
00:28:10.280
And fuck, sorry, I forgot to take out the trash.
00:28:22.220
Say, Hey babe, you know, I thought about what you said about the trash.
00:28:26.940
I did tell you I'd take out the trash and I will work on that.
00:28:30.500
But I was upset because I had a really challenging day.
00:28:42.240
And I know that you appreciate the work that I do, but it's hard for me to go out into battle
00:28:50.560
And I felt like that comment just dogpiled onto what I was already feeling.
00:28:54.840
So just want to let you know where I'm coming from.
00:28:58.160
And just wanted to explain to you how I'm feeling.
00:28:59.600
That is a great way to rewrite the programming and build trust and rapport with somebody you
00:29:07.200
She didn't mean she didn't respect or appreciate what you did.
00:29:14.920
But you blew it out of proportion because you tacked it on to everything else that happened
00:29:20.760
And you'll feel a hundred percent better having that conversation.
00:29:24.180
And if you didn't have that conversation, then you're stonewalling her all day long.
00:29:30.560
She gets triggered because you're being mean to her and the kids.
00:29:35.540
Like, dude, just having that conversation is so powerful.
00:29:39.220
And I know whenever I feel, whenever I address and express the upset, it almost just goes
00:29:53.800
And I don't know what it is, but I could do the mental gymnastics in my head.
00:30:02.660
I'm still bothered until I express it for whatever reason.
00:30:06.780
So some of you guys, if you find yourself doing the mental gymnastics of like processing
00:30:11.020
it and you're like, but I'm still bothered, communicate it.
00:30:15.260
And that's usually the last step that I rarely do.
00:30:19.360
Like I have to fight myself to do the communication side.
00:30:25.080
And you know, the other thing too, is the people who are in your life, your wife, your
00:30:31.260
When you said, I feel heard, they're going to hear you.
00:30:39.460
When you walked in the door, I didn't even ask how your day was.
00:30:43.340
I just jumped down your throat and started hand pecking you about the track.
00:30:46.420
Like that's what she'll say if you do it correctly.
00:30:50.080
And, and there's one other caveat to this is make sure men that you're owning it, that
00:30:56.280
So if you go to your wife and you're like, every time I come home, you do this and you
00:31:04.200
And you say these comments that are hurtful and it just pisses me off.
00:31:21.660
I said, I wouldn't, I didn't, Hey, when you say that I feel this way, it makes me
00:31:30.060
It makes me upset because I want to come home to a peaceful environment when I'm out
00:31:41.540
So like you see all the ownership that comes into play when you're having this conversation
00:31:45.420
as opposed to what you did and you didn't do this and you should make me feel this way.
00:31:52.720
Bobby, Katie, Ryan and Kip, when you're knee deep in the chaos of leading a team or a family
00:31:59.560
and a big setback hits like a kid melting down or work project tanking, what's the first
00:32:08.780
Could you walk us through a real example from your lives where that shift turned things around?
00:32:15.740
Um, yeah, let me think about, God, these are good questions.
00:32:19.980
I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to up my game now and start actually looking at
00:32:23.760
the questions ahead of time because there's some deep and thoughtful questions here.
00:32:27.220
I do kind of like just winging it a little bit and just shooting from the hip, but some
00:32:31.500
Yeah, I think, I think the first step in, in when, when it's hitting the fan is to bring
00:32:39.140
That's, that's the first thing I would say, because if you're feeling a way, then everybody
00:32:44.900
So the first thing is, Hey guys, again, whether it's a family or business or whoever it is,
00:32:55.200
Let, let's all of us, including myself, let's all just take a deep breath for a second.
00:33:00.080
Let's, let's, let's separate, you know, go to your room, go to your office, like go like,
00:33:05.140
like, let's just come back to this in about a half hour.
00:33:09.180
Right now, everybody's in high emotion, high alert.
00:33:14.100
Nervous systems are firing that this is not catastrophic.
00:33:21.040
But right now we just need to take a breather for a second and then reconvene.
00:33:28.780
And then step number two is you start to enlist other people.
00:33:35.720
Now, if it's dire or there's an emergency situation, you might need to be directive,
00:33:43.080
I think if it's not, and it's like, all right, we get everybody around the table,
00:33:46.900
whether it's the dinner table or the boardroom table.
00:34:03.360
So it's okay that we freak out a little bit, but let's, let's dissect the problem.
00:34:14.180
I can't remember the guy, Ed Harris, I think is his name.
00:34:17.780
Everybody's in the, in the room because the mission has gone catastrophic.
00:34:27.860
And then he goes around the room and he asks all the different departments, Hey, what's
00:34:37.460
And he gets all of the feedback and all of the information from everybody.
00:34:40.880
And then you can start making informed decisions.
00:34:43.700
So I think that's what you would need to do in your family and also in the business is
00:34:49.140
I don't quite know what happened or how it happened.
00:34:51.380
Somebody need, we need to look at this and address this.
00:35:08.180
And then I think you start working through some scenarios because everybody's now vested
00:35:12.040
in it and knows that you as the leader aren't freaking out, aren't flipping out, aren't
00:35:16.160
losing your cool because if you do, I promise they will, they're just going to mirror
00:35:23.380
And most of the upset is, is in the emotional response to the expectations of we shouldn't
00:35:30.680
I'm a huge, I'm a huge believer that setbacks, if not coupled with learning reduces morale.
00:35:40.000
So setbacks have to, they're going to happen, but you need to double down on, this is how
00:35:45.040
This is what, what do we, what can we learn and grow from this?
00:35:51.400
But if it's like, oh, this should have never happened.
00:35:54.220
Trust me that that will allocate, like it'll, it'll move people in the direction of blaming,
00:35:59.520
shaming, and then hiding in the future when setbacks occur.
00:36:02.840
Cause you want to learn from this experience too, that, Hey, when setbacks happen, we handle
00:36:07.620
So that way, when they happen again, we go down the right path.
00:36:19.300
But if you take a setback and it's focused on blaming and shaming of who's the wrong person,
00:36:27.380
Trust me, the next setback is going to even be worse because you didn't couple it with a
00:36:35.380
Well, his part of this question was, do you have a real world example?
00:36:39.340
And I do specifically with the iron council, uh, this was several months ago.
00:36:44.940
One of our team leaders decided to behind our backs, take a big group of the guys that
00:36:52.600
were part of our organization and go start secretly his own organization.
00:36:59.440
I think start their own organization and pull all the guys from our organization over to theirs.
00:37:05.860
And the thing about it was an exact competition with the iron council.
00:37:12.220
Like built off the same platforms as the iron council.
00:37:23.660
And I think there was quite a few guys who were considering leaving because of this behavior
00:37:35.600
And I thought they thought that I would flip out, that I lose my cool and, and have a bunch
00:37:42.660
of contention and animosity and throw people under the bus.
00:37:47.820
And again, I think I had the right to be mad, but I didn't lose my cool.
00:37:52.380
And what I did is I sat down with every single one of those guys who would sit down in a group
00:37:57.060
call and I said, all right, guys, hold on, let's figure it out.
00:38:04.840
I would love to hear what you guys have to say.
00:38:12.160
Man, we had a really, really productive conversation.
00:38:14.980
And I think that organization that decided to behave that way really got hit hard because
00:38:20.360
they thought they would do better than they did because of the way that I responded
00:38:25.320
by involving everybody, by being transparent, by not flipping out and losing my cool, because
00:38:31.300
the alternative would mean for me to just blow up and then repel a bunch of guys anyways.
00:38:36.820
And instead, a lot of them ended up sticking around.
00:38:39.600
So, I mean, this happens all the time, not this specific example, but these types of situations
00:38:45.840
happen all the time and you can compound it and make it worse.
00:38:50.160
You can't go back and make it not happen, but you can do the right behaviors at this
00:38:58.120
So, there's an example that happened just in the last four to five months or so.
00:39:06.660
Scenario, large, large client implementation project.
00:39:14.540
Communication internally on I-team was the client's the problem.
00:39:24.660
Client's problem is we're dropping the ball constantly on our project.
00:39:27.660
I get involved because I had an established relationship with their executive member.
00:39:33.580
So, I wasn't even on the project and they've looped me in to kind of resolve things.
00:39:46.220
And the minute I heard the client's difficult, then we break it down.
00:39:52.280
I'm like, what do you mean the client's difficult?
00:40:02.020
And I start going deeper and deeper into the issue.
00:40:13.340
It's like client XYZ doesn't like our tax EIN number logo of our company.
00:40:21.100
The client doesn't have a problem with the company.
00:40:25.740
Sally, that happens to work for company B doesn't like Fred at our company, period.
00:40:52.080
And what usually always happens in this example is we can, the, the idea that we, we are sideways
00:41:00.140
because we started blaming people and we didn't take ownership over things.
00:41:03.680
And the client didn't feel that we should, we were taking ownership and we were making excuses.
00:41:14.160
And so my conversation with the client then was, hey, how are things going?
00:41:30.960
But be super, super clear on what the pivot is, what we're going to do about it, the action
00:41:37.060
plan, and then make sure that we followed through.
00:41:39.300
Once we got to that, all of a sudden everyone felt better.
00:41:43.960
There, there's alignment in regards to what the issue is.
00:41:52.840
So maybe that, I don't, I'm not as good as Ryan is giving you the one, two, three, four,
00:42:00.360
But hopefully Bobby, that kind of gives you another element of example, I guess, to your
00:42:06.260
Um, Eric, I'm going to slaughter your name, roll, roll you, we, sorry, that's a tough
00:42:15.520
At what point enough is enough in a relationship?
00:42:20.620
And for more than a year, my wife has been harassing me and my son to move to Italy.
00:42:41.500
So I guess the way I interpret that is the wife wants to move to Italy, like they all
00:42:46.980
want all of them moved to Italy, but he doesn't want to, or something that's, that's as far
00:42:54.560
Um, let's just address the first part of the question.
00:42:56.780
At what point is enough enough in a relationship?
00:43:07.760
I can't, I can give you some, some things to consider.
00:43:12.860
And the thing that I would consider more than anything else is I want you to fast forward
00:43:17.580
in your life 20 years and looking back at this moment, are you able to look the man in
00:43:26.360
the mirror and say, I did everything I could to make that relationship work.
00:43:32.720
And if in 20 years, fast forwarding in 20 years, you don't think you can answer that question.
00:43:41.500
You, you made a commitment, just worked left undone.
00:43:46.300
You, you weren't the man you could have been, um, there, there's potential opportunity, but
00:43:57.440
And do you see how that's not contingent on her or anybody else?
00:44:03.340
The thing about Italy, I don't know the detail, but like based on that, that doesn't seem like
00:44:08.480
enough is enough to me, but there's other things you said.
00:44:10.980
I don't know what those other things are, but you need to sit down.
00:44:23.440
You need to encourage her to be part of your journey.
00:44:27.120
This actually goes back to the chase versus pursue thing.
00:44:29.720
You need to lead the way and then leave a gap for her to follow.
00:44:46.240
Here's how we do it together and leave her the opportunity to step into that path.
00:44:50.240
And if she doesn't want to, man, maybe she makes the choice where she's like, I don't
00:45:00.360
You know, I've had that experience happen throughout my life, but that's how men perform.
00:45:07.660
And if you want to come with me and you believe in me and you believe in us, then
00:45:15.540
And if you don't, then you don't have to, but that's your decision to make.
00:45:21.380
After you feel like you can honestly answer the question, I've done everything I could
00:45:27.260
By the way, I don't actually feel the same way about every other scenario, but in marriage,
00:45:32.900
Like, yeah, like sometimes you could, you could say, well, I've started this business
00:45:38.800
or I'm working at this company and I would feel completely comfortable walking away, even
00:45:43.880
if I hadn't tried everything else, because I don't owe anybody anything.
00:45:47.980
But when I said I do, and I wanted to be in that long-term committed relationship, then
00:45:54.340
yeah, I need to be able to look myself in the mirror and say, yep, I did everything.
00:45:59.100
That doesn't apply broadly to every situation in my life though.
00:46:07.480
You know, maybe even get clear on the, on the scenario, right?
00:46:13.080
What's the meaning associated in moving to Italy?
00:46:22.760
It's, it's by moving there, she believes what, what's the assumptions?
00:46:30.760
Like you're not addressing, there's no addressing the issue at that surface level.
00:46:38.000
And you might find out that you need to move to Italy for that to be possible.
00:46:42.200
Or you might find out that like, oh my gosh, there's an alternative.
00:46:45.160
Plan B that works out really well for me and the boy and addresses her concerns, right?
00:46:52.580
Maybe she wants to move to Italy because she wants to have an amazing marriage with you.
00:46:55.780
And she's under the impression that that's not possible unless you move to Italy.
00:47:11.720
Those are all the questions in the Iron Council.
00:47:21.160
So if you want to band with 74,000 other men and get really good feedback.
00:47:26.860
So I should say this, some really good feedback and 10% bull crap.
00:47:30.860
Then join a Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash order of men.
00:47:38.480
The bull crap gets sifted out and everybody calls them out for the most part.
00:47:44.460
Like there's some natural accountability that happens.
00:47:48.740
Like a guy could be like, Hey, I came home and my wife was acting like a jerk to me.
00:48:06.520
Or another one that's always controversial is pornography.
00:48:13.640
And it's like, what, what information are you operating under?
00:48:20.360
So yeah, you do have to sift through some of it, but it's at facebook.com slash group
00:48:24.500
Join us if you want to be informed and also if you want to be entertained.
00:48:36.100
What are the real risks of AI becoming invent, invent, invent, inventable?
00:48:45.420
And how can men leverage its power effectively and ethically?
00:48:49.660
What are the risks of ignoring it and how do we leverage, leverage, leverage its power
00:49:01.200
There's a couple of different ways I could take that.
00:49:03.180
Like, are you going to be left in the dust if you ignore it?
00:49:06.920
If you don't incorporate it into your life in some meaningful and significant way, you
00:49:14.920
You won't have access to as many opportunities.
00:49:18.140
You'll be super inefficient relative to other people.
00:49:23.660
This has happened throughout human history and everybody wants to slow progress down because
00:49:28.060
it puts people at risk, especially those who might lose jobs and that sort of thing.
00:49:34.120
As the saying was several years ago, learn to code.
00:49:43.440
Otherwise, you will get left in the dust and you will hurt yourself and you will put your
00:49:49.280
It's that dire if you don't pay attention to it.
00:49:57.780
On the other side, the risk is that we just become mindless, soulless meat sacks that have
00:50:10.440
no purpose and meaning in life and let robots and technology do all of our stuff for us.
00:50:16.860
I think, I don't know if it was Elon Musk or somebody was saying that there would come
00:50:22.540
a point in time where you would not have to work.
00:50:25.380
I would say that that probably is true, but your standard of living is going to be greatly
00:50:32.860
If that were the case, your bare necessities would be met.
00:50:36.400
And then there would be those who excel and use AI in a positive and constructive way and
00:50:41.100
continue to create jobs and meaning and purpose and direction and clarity and drive.
00:50:46.560
So I think it's really powerful if you use it correctly.
00:50:49.240
So what I would do and what I do actually is that I use AI as a leveraging tool.
00:50:56.460
So instead of creating every single image by hand, I can put in some prompts and have
00:51:01.060
images created and Instagram information put together.
00:51:06.360
I could do a research on a research on a particular topic and within a matter of seconds have as
00:51:13.120
much information that could have taken me months, if not years to gather in writing my first
00:51:21.540
You can't because you can't write a book, write a book if AI wrote it for you.
00:51:28.100
So that's where we need to be very aware is like, okay, here's my book I'm putting out.
00:51:40.380
We still need to have souls and fulfillment and purpose and meaning, and then we can use
00:51:51.360
I think about this in the construction industry.
00:51:54.780
You see a bunch of these track homes popping up in Southern Utah everywhere, and they're
00:52:02.960
I asked somebody the other day, they're having a home built.
00:52:04.980
I said, oh, what will it be done in like six months?
00:52:06.820
They're like, no, it's eight weeks, maybe 10 weeks.
00:52:13.040
Yeah, it's, it's going to be built in 10 weeks.
00:52:24.800
I'm sure it's stronger than houses that are built 30 years ago, but you walk into them
00:52:28.400
and they look like these like soulless museums.
00:52:33.420
They're bumped right up next to everybody else.
00:52:41.240
Where's the, the, the weirdness and the little quirks of the home that they, that used to
00:52:49.300
I want to keep the soul of humans in every aspect of our lives and we can use AI to do
00:52:55.420
it, but if we let it get too far, it'll be a problem.
00:53:00.500
I don't disagree with anything that you've said.
00:53:02.460
I think Justin here's, here's, let me point out where I think we're going wrong.
00:53:08.200
The first thing that we've done wrong is call it artificial intelligence.
00:53:13.300
We might as well called it magic and then had a bunch of tech companies promote this
00:53:19.900
And everybody that doesn't understand technology is like, well, it's magic.
00:53:25.840
And so we have this massive misunderstanding due to the labeling of what we chose to call
00:53:38.660
And you hop on the web and you'll find everybody's on this AI train telling us like, even last
00:53:45.560
week, I saw something about AI created its own religion.
00:53:50.160
Someone gave it a prompt and said, create a religion based upon blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:54:00.340
Trending information in a data set that is scrubbed on the internet.
00:54:03.800
By the way, chat GBT as an example, 40% of its data comes from where?
00:54:17.880
It's only as good as the data, junk in, junk out, right?
00:54:21.520
And so we need to really understand it's not intelligent.
00:54:33.980
As our economies change, as markets change, as industries change, we should be evolving,
00:54:40.760
We should be evolving and growing and taking advantage of things.
00:54:46.100
But it's very similar to the dot-com boom, in my opinion, right?
00:54:50.900
Back then it was like, build a website and all of a sudden you'll make millions of dollars
00:54:55.220
because people will just randomly start shopping on your website.
00:54:58.580
Well, guess what the percentage of AI project failures are?
00:55:04.160
80% of AI projects in companies are complete failures.
00:55:11.320
They misunderstand what the technology is and what it's great for.
00:55:16.240
And you end up with a bunch of CEOs reading magazines about AI and they see it as this magic
00:55:29.860
And to be honest with you, there's a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
00:55:44.500
But Microsoft will jam it down to everyone's throat so they can justify the investment
00:55:48.660
that they're making on infrastructure in hopes that it will pay off.
00:55:52.760
Meanwhile, everyone's trying to figure out how to use it, right?
00:55:55.880
There's absolutely a race happening in regards to who's going to win the AI race, what AI
00:56:06.480
The technology is great, but it's on borrowed money.
00:56:14.220
And the last counsel I would give, because I've been in tech, right?
00:56:18.200
I've been a software engineer for years, engineer, an architect around technology for
00:56:27.860
He calls me up and goes, Kip, man, we need to implement AI.
00:56:50.920
And by the way, you might come with the business problem.
00:56:53.280
I might look at it and it might tell you that AI is not the right solution.
00:56:59.360
Understand what it does well, but implement it to solve problems.
00:57:02.760
Don't implement for the sake of implementing it.
00:57:05.220
Otherwise, we'll find ourselves doing tech that doesn't provide value, isn't truly addressing
00:57:11.700
And we just get to wear our little badge of saying, oh, we're utilizing AI, but it's
00:57:17.140
Sorry, a little bit of a rant, but man, it just makes me frustrated.
00:57:26.480
It's these companies that are in tech that will pay other tech companies billions and
00:57:33.980
And then that AI then goes to those tech companies.
00:57:37.300
The technology then goes to those tech companies.
00:57:43.000
And so we see these big rises in the market and it's not true diversification and it's
00:57:49.780
It's like, I'm going to pay this company to do this thing.
00:57:52.340
They're going to build this thing and then they're going to give it back to me.
00:57:54.280
That's fine when it comes to buying consumer services, products, and goods.
00:57:59.300
But when it comes to investing, it artificially inflates the market, which gets people to believe
00:58:05.440
that this is a bigger thing than it actually is.
00:58:07.460
Essentially, they have an AI department that they're giving money to outside of their in-house
00:58:15.720
And it could come tumbling down when people realize, oh, we weren't diversified.
00:58:23.580
The housing market, the tech boom, like it happens over the, what was it?
00:58:28.180
Poppy seed market years and like hundreds of years ago.
00:58:33.100
It happens all the time and people still don't wake up to it.
00:58:38.800
Yeah, just, yeah, just be aware, deal in reality, be clear on where it can provide value.
00:58:49.600
What's the one piece of advice you'd offer a man who recently found out his wife was
00:58:54.040
planning on surprising him with a divorce and immediately moving out of state with the
00:59:04.800
Like if you, if you really think that's what's happening, like you really think I would not,
00:59:11.020
I would not approach her about it because if you do, then you're just giving away your
00:59:20.840
Don't say, I'm going to do this or I'm going to do that.
00:59:23.240
If she's planning this exodus and I don't know how you found out or if you're acting
00:59:28.520
on, on good data or not, but an attorney will help you with that.
00:59:37.480
You should protect your children and you should protect your assets.
00:59:54.300
You're going to want, like, she's going to say something and it's going to trigger you.
00:59:57.200
You'd be like, well, actually I just hired a lawyer last.
01:00:05.520
That's the first rule when it comes to hiring an attorney, you keep your mouth shut.
01:00:27.060
I'm saying that I want to be very, very, don't fight with it.
01:00:37.220
He said, Hey, once that marriage is over, it's a business contract now.
01:00:49.260
In this case, an attorney, and you got to prepare to go to battle.
01:00:54.460
In fact, we're doing a preview call tonight at 8 PM Eastern.
01:00:58.340
So it like for you or for anybody else who is in the process of a divorce or divorce up
01:01:04.880
to 12 months, um, then join us on the preview call.
01:01:09.020
And I'm going to pull back the curtain about the eight modules that we go through over the
01:01:12.240
course of eight weeks, uh, from new, new, you new roles to how to communicate effectively with her
01:01:19.720
to hiring your legal team to, um, now raising your kids as a single father to dealing with
01:01:25.740
your finances and your assets to at some point, eventually being back in the dating pool.
01:01:31.520
If you go to divorce, not death.com, you can get registered for the preview call tonight,
01:01:38.720
And that'll be for an hour, but you should definitely be on that call.
01:01:41.760
And so should anybody else going through a divorce right now.
01:01:47.400
Lighter question, Roger, when was the last time you've laughed so hard that you cried?
01:02:06.300
Like I, these kinds of questions are hard for me.
01:02:09.420
I didn't, I haven't thought about, I don't think about that.
01:02:14.400
Do you have a, do you have a moment that you can remember?
01:02:17.540
Um, I do just because it happened like last week.
01:02:20.960
That's the reason, but I was thinking about it.
01:02:22.820
I'm like, if that didn't happen last week, I'd be responding in the same way.
01:02:37.240
My daughter starts like laughing uncontrollably, which then made me laugh.
01:02:49.460
It was weird, but I think it was mostly cause I was tired.
01:02:53.880
So I think it's, it, for me, it'd be like when I'm with my friends, like we've, we've
01:02:58.440
been on hunting trips together, Kip, and like silly things happen.
01:03:03.040
I remember when I shot the tail off of a deer one time, like literally just shot it right
01:03:08.140
at the nub, like just shot the tail perfectly off.
01:03:11.900
And me and my buddies were laughing hysterically about a deer running around on the island of
01:03:16.720
Molokai with a sunburned butthole, you know, and it's like, yeah, stuff like that.
01:03:31.260
And that's, look, that's part of the reason too.
01:03:34.240
And so you can laugh, like you don't have to take it so seriously.
01:03:36.600
And both Kip, you and I are both serious people.
01:03:39.220
So I think we need it more than, than other people might.
01:03:47.920
You know, as always, I mean, we already, we already did a call to action on divorce, not
01:03:52.500
death as well, the iron council and order of man, I really last thing, you know, reach
01:03:56.680
out to Ryan, connect on socials at Ryan Mickler, both X and Instagram, uh, and just
01:04:01.700
band with us and go ahead and check out YouTube, uh, while you're there.
01:04:07.760
We will be back on Friday until then go out there, take action and become the man.
01:04:13.260
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
01:04:16.100
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man.
01:04:19.000
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.