Order of Man - CHRIS ELISE ｜ Is The American Dream Alive or Dead？

00:00:00.000 Is the American dream alive or dead? It's a question that begs asking, but more importantly,

00:00:05.760 how can we each individually carve out our own piece of it if possible? These are all questions

00:00:11.300 my guest today, Chris Elise, and I address. Chris was born in France and has since become

00:00:16.460 an American citizen following his dreams as a young boy. Today, we talk about channeling anger

00:00:21.680 for productive outcomes, how to develop a personal renewal of faith, why you need to be cautious of

00:00:27.700 betraying yourself, not getting yourself stuck in a bubble, investing in brotherhood,

00:00:33.260 and pursuing your version of the American dream. You're a man of action. You live life to the

00:00:38.420 fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back

00:00:43.880 up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:51.280 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:00:56.360 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:00.680 Guys, what's going on? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man

00:01:05.720 podcast. And of course, the Associated Movement. I want to welcome you here. I want to welcome you

00:01:12.160 back. And I just want to say thank you. Support for the past almost eight years now has been incredible.

00:01:18.680 And we have grown this global movement far more than I thought possible. And frankly,

00:01:26.140 far more than I had on the radar as we started this mission to reclaim and restore masculinity.

00:01:32.160 If you're new to the podcast, we're interviewing guys like Tim Tebow, Terry Cruz, Andy Frisilla,

00:01:40.100 David Goggins, Chris Williamson, Dan Crenshaw, Ben Shapiro, Dave Ramsey. Guys, we've had phenomenal,

00:01:49.360 phenomenal men all successful in their own right. So we can learn. We can extract their wisdom,

00:01:54.920 dissect it, piece it, and pull it apart, and then apply that information in our lives. And this one

00:01:59.660 is no different. Got a great one with Chris Elise today. And I don't have an ask other than just

00:02:05.240 leaving a rating and review. It seems like a little thing, but it goes a very, very long way if you

00:02:11.160 leave a rating review, an honest rating review on your podcast platform of choice. So take a few

00:02:16.840 minutes after this show and do that if you would. For now, let's get to it with Chris. As I mentioned,

00:02:22.340 his name is Chris Elise. Throw your mind on Instagram if you're following over there.

00:02:26.860 And I've been following him for some time. Fascinating, fascinating individual. He's made a name for

00:02:31.840 himself in becoming a professional photographer for the NBA. And he has been a very outspoken voice

00:02:38.040 against some of the woke ideology that has permeated the NBA and other professional sports

00:02:43.600 organizations. He now photographs for the PBR, professional bull riders, and has found himself

00:02:50.260 in an environment of incredible athletes and cowboys. We talk about that on the podcast today.

00:02:55.300 These are guys that he used to watch on the silver screen as a young boy. He's got a very

00:03:00.120 fascinating view on life and faith and how to make the most of the time that we've been given.

00:03:06.600 Enjoy this one, guys.

00:03:08.820 Chris, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

00:03:12.540 Hello. How are you doing? Thank you for having me.

00:03:15.400 Yeah, you bet. I've been looking forward to this one. We talked a little bit before we hit record

00:03:19.680 that I've been following you, you've been following me. So this was bound to happen at some point.

00:03:23.260 Yeah. I still don't understand why you get me as a guest on your podcast because I'm not that

00:03:28.960 interesting, but I really appreciate the opportunity. Let's see if I can bring something

00:03:34.180 to the plate.

00:03:35.240 I think you will. I think you're pretty interesting. I mean, not only you and your thoughts and your

00:03:39.540 story, but I got to tell you, your podcast studio is probably better than mine. I'm digging

00:03:45.000 the podcast studio.

00:03:46.460 Yeah. It's actually like, it's my guns room, my main cave and my podcast studio at some point.

00:03:53.040 I'm going to start like in the next month or a couple of months. And yeah, I love the place. I

00:03:58.120 mean, even if I don't, I don't mind if I don't start my podcast, I just love sitting here and,

00:04:03.340 you know, listen to some podcasts, listen to music, read a book.

00:04:07.660 Yeah. Yeah. I saw that on Instagram. I don't know when you posted it, but you had posted the

00:04:14.160 studio and you said, who's going to be the next guest. So I wasn't sure if you'd started recording

00:04:18.120 or not. It sounds like you're getting close.

00:04:20.360 Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be like a couple of months, you know, it's coming. I'm taking my time.

00:04:26.640 Well, good. Well, you fully embrace the, uh, the American, uh, look anyways, with regards to the

00:04:32.560 studio, I'm actually really curious about your, your story, uh, in, in coming to America and also

00:04:39.900 the, the, the concept of the American dream for you. Uh, this is something that I've noticed

00:04:45.720 seems to be a growing sentiment that the American dream is dead. Uh, that it's not what it, what it

00:04:51.200 used to be or what it once was. And I know you've wanted to come to America since you were little

00:04:54.980 boys. I understand it. Yeah. Actually, I didn't want to come since I was a little boy, but I was,

00:05:01.400 I was really in love with America. Like since I was really young, you know, I've been telling the

00:05:05.740 story so many times, but you know, there's no other way to say it. I started to watch

00:05:10.340 Western movies with my grandfather, started at seven years old, uh, eight years old. And it's

00:05:15.180 was love at first sight. And then, um, to make it a short story, I keep like trying to learn about

00:05:21.960 America. I was kind of a history nerd and in books when I was young as a teenager, I was not cool at

00:05:28.300 all. So when you don't have any girlfriend, when you grow up, you have plenty of time to be smart and

00:05:33.200 read some book and stuff. And, uh, there's something which it's, it's tough to say when

00:05:38.440 you fall in love with a woman, it can be like some attributed characters, but you don't explain

00:05:44.160 love. And it's tough for me to explain the love for America since I was a kid, but there's a

00:05:49.420 sentiment who we, the sentiment really grow as I was creating older. And finally, for many

00:05:56.680 reasons, it took me a while to tell and admit to myself, like, I want to live in America,

00:06:02.700 at least for a few years. So I was past 30. I was sorry, around 32, 33 years old. And the

00:06:09.100 idea was really pursuing a dream, you know, just like the fact like I was, I would love

00:06:14.440 to live a few years in America was a dream in itself. And, uh, and it's true. Like there,

00:06:20.940 I'm, I'm like an example of, uh, of the American dream because not only I live here, which was

00:06:27.540 a personal dream, but the thing I've done in America, it's, I don't think I love my

00:06:34.540 homeland France, but I don't think I could have succeeded the way I wanted to succeed.

00:06:39.400 It's not, it's not money or stuff like this, but the one thing I wanted to achieve dreams

00:06:44.160 and to travel and to see stuff and to grow up and be better for myself was a little more

00:06:50.420 challenging to do in a, in France and in America, I don't know, it's, it's difficult to put,

00:06:57.260 you know, to explain it, to put a lot, but things are possible in this country.

00:07:01.700 Hmm. What, what do you think was the hindrance of that type of pursuit in France that you don't

00:07:09.380 feel was available to you there that might be available here?

00:07:12.680 You know, first, my dream was to live in America. So I had to move to America to pursue

00:07:18.080 my dream. So I had a, I had a really nice career. I did a lot of nice stuff in France.

00:07:22.580 I love the country. I didn't leave my country because I was thick or frustrated or anything

00:07:27.080 with anything. I had another dream, but the thing is like, um, you know, we can just, let's

00:07:33.060 talk about racism, you know, I happen to be a guy who is black, you know, my skin color

00:07:36.800 is black. And like, there's a lot of conversation the last 10 years in America and last three

00:07:43.200 years about the races, these countries, these hot countries, so races, the systemic races.

00:07:47.060 Actually, I always say to, to people who say stuff like this, compare to what exactly?

00:07:52.620 Because for instance, I'm not, I'm not, I didn't come from a country, France, with like

00:07:59.820 a huge history of racism. You know, we didn't have like, we didn't have to go through the

00:08:03.780 civil rights in the 50s and 60s to get to a better point like America. But saying that

00:08:08.660 our country is like free of any racism, it's easy for any person of color, our immigration 0.51

00:08:14.320 is black from Africa. It's also from West Indies. French West Indies are not immigrants.

00:08:18.600 They are French people. My father was a black man from a French West Indies, West Indies,

00:08:23.440 West Indies Island. But the thing like, and we have a lot of immigration from a former

00:08:28.980 colonies, not a black Africa and North Africa, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria. There has been, it 0.99

00:08:34.880 has been very tough for these people to, to climb the social ladder in France. I come to

00:08:41.320 this country, USA, like 20, I started to travel 20, 25 years ago. You see minorities at every

00:08:48.940 level of the society, business, entertainment, sports, politics, and big guy. I was a journalist

00:08:55.560 back in the day. One of the biggest CEO I interviewed back in the day was a CEO of Simon Tech.

00:09:00.440 I still remember his name was John Thompson. John Thompson was a black man like me, grew

00:09:05.340 up like in middle class, et cetera. He was a CEO of one of the biggest tech company ever back

00:09:10.180 in the day, like, like Simon Tech, anti-virus. So you come to this country, you see minorities, 1.00

00:09:15.760 people of different color, different origin, all over the country, at every level of society.

00:09:22.340 And, and still some people say, Oh, America is so racist. You go to France. We never had any

00:09:29.380 president with not like a white man, which is fine for me. But you know what I mean? We'd never had like

00:09:34.260 any minority president. We'd never had any prime minister, which is from a minority. And is there 0.96

00:09:41.220 systemic racism in France? No. But at the same time, the possibility, the opportunity when you come from

00:09:47.460 nothing in terms of social status, or you come from a minority with not resources, it's tough in

00:09:53.460 America, in France. In France, when your name is very Arabic, you second or third generation French, 0.84

00:09:59.540 but your parents or grandparents were like from Algeria, Morocco, not easy to even get an apartment in 0.91

00:10:05.460 Paris. Really? When you get this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm completely honest. So the thing is like,

00:10:13.940 for instance, people I met in, in, in the USA, when I was not like, especially wealthy, et cetera, there was a

00:10:24.020 mixity of social classes, which is pretty tough to find and to have in France. So there's a, the,

00:10:32.740 the field of possibility in America is much more immense and vast and large like in France, because 0.89

00:10:40.420 of the side of the country, but because of the community side of the, of the country, like there's

00:10:44.980 a lot of different communities. And contrary to what people see, good luck to be racist in America,

00:10:50.500 actually. I mean, if you racist in America, you, you lose everything. You, you lose everything. 0.87

00:10:54.980 You cannot have a job. You can, it's going to the point if you're not racist, but you say something

00:11:00.100 which are labeled racism by people, you lose everything, your social status, your, your, your

00:11:06.340 job, your friends, your, your family. So, you know, that this kind of mixed city, you, you don't see it 1.00

00:11:13.700 in France. So it's much more like you have much more opportunities in the USA.

00:11:17.700 Yeah. I think, and look, I'm looking at it through my own lens. So I'd readily admit that as a white 0.88

00:11:23.220 man. Right. But I think that most of the conversation about race, you correct me if I'm

00:11:28.020 wrong or see it differently comes from a select few, whether it's the media or government agencies

00:11:34.420 that are more interested in riling people up. You know, I, I, I have all kinds of conversations

00:11:40.420 with all kinds of people, black, white women, men, you name it, gay, straight. And you know how

00:11:46.420 often I care about that? Never. Yeah. You know, I might recognize or acknowledge, okay,

00:11:52.500 here's a black man, just like I would recognize or acknowledge another man who has a beard or,

00:11:56.500 or has an interesting mustache, for example, but it's not an issue. It's, it's an, it's not a factor

00:12:03.060 other than those people who are trying to rile us up and get to fight against each other.

00:12:06.980 Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I don't know. It's part of the history. It's part of the media.

00:12:11.620 It's not, it didn't happen this last three or five years, by the way, because me, I started to

00:12:15.940 travel in the USA 20 years ago and I still met, I still met, I met back in the day and I still met,

00:12:22.260 I've met like a few years ago, black men, for instance, in California, when I was talking to

00:12:27.540 them and say, oh, I traveled to South Dakota, I traveled, I traveled to Wyoming. I went to Montana.

00:12:32.580 I went on this whole trip for my work or just for pleasure sometimes because I love being on the road

00:12:36.580 in America. So this guy, like black men, black Afro-American was like, why are you going to 1.00

00:12:42.180 South Dakota? You're not worried about going there? You know, it's like, and I'm like, you know,

00:12:47.380 it was very surprising to me. So I noticed for a long time, it came from a place when people,

00:12:53.940 some people are convinced about it. Why they are convinced about it? Part is back of the, of the past,

00:13:01.700 the history, but it's just not true the last 20 last years. It's not true. You know, we, my wife,

00:13:08.020 my wife happened to be white. When we moved from California to Tennessee, some of our friends,

00:13:13.540 they didn't come to me, but they told my wife, do you think it's going to be, it's going to be safe

00:13:18.340 for Chris in Tennessee? And that's people who are really educated. That's people who are like, we

00:13:24.900 good friends. They were worried about this kind of stuff. You know, I have some friends in Los

00:13:29.540 Angeles who like, every time I went to Texas, we're like, oh, you're going to Texas. That's a

00:13:33.700 bunch of racist people. I mean, are you kidding me? Texas is, Texas is so big. There will be like 0.98

00:13:38.900 bad people everywhere, but you know, so there's something culturally, probably the media will

00:13:44.340 push a narrative for a long time and people believe it. And they don't experience anything

00:13:49.540 by themselves. So, so they will, they will, they will die. Probably some people will die thinking 0.99

00:13:56.420 this part of the country is racist. If you think like this is racist, et cetera, et cetera.

00:14:01.620 I don't know how we can change this. Well, I think part of it, you, you, you have been for a long

00:14:06.660 time active in portraying culture through photojournalism. And I think that's, that's a,

00:14:14.820 that's a big way we can begin to address these problems is we have quote unquote journalists now

00:14:19.620 who are doing more opinion pieces and biased columns and reports rather than actual journalism.

00:14:27.300 And, and I think there's a lot in the media and entertainment industry that aren't portraying

00:14:32.500 real life, the way things really are. And again, it becomes from, from a bias or it comes from a desire

00:14:37.780 to have clicks. And that's, you know, that's frustrating for me. I imagine it is for you being

00:14:42.660 somewhat in the industry in the past. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely is. And I don't think,

00:14:48.900 I'm not optimistic in a way, like basically when some, I was a journalist for a long time. And when

00:14:54.740 I see some media, I would try to be, to, to, to, to, to do an honest job. If there are a little bit

00:15:00.500 on the conservative side, only conservative people are going to read or listen to them. So basically you,

00:15:07.140 you still don't educate people. We, we get to this point right now. You just, you say, oh,

00:15:12.740 you should listen to this guy, which you should read this article. And depending on the source,

00:15:17.540 some people will say no, period. So they will never change. They keep, if I, to, to summarize it,

00:15:23.460 like some people, they're going to listen to CNN. Some people, they're going to listen to Fox and the

00:15:29.060 people who listen to Fox will never listen to CNN and vice versa. Both are not the best example of

00:15:34.100 journalists anyway. But if it's, if you have this media, which is labeled as a conservative,

00:15:40.340 a lot of people will never, never consider it. So I don't know how you can change anything

00:15:46.340 except because with conversation face to face, I think the people are going to change stuff much

00:15:52.020 more than any media right now. The politician like uses left and right and the media uses. 0.51

00:15:58.740 So it's only conversation like this, you know, but even in a conversation,

00:16:03.620 how many people are going to listen to you and I, right? And I'm not sure. A lot of people,

00:16:07.620 you know, they're going to see all the other men. Oh, I see this guy, Patriarch, blah, blah, blah,

00:16:11.460 blah, et cetera. I don't want to. And it's funny because I had this interview with PragerU

00:16:17.300 and I had a lot of comments, but I had some people who comment like, oh, at first,

00:16:23.620 I see this brother with his afro. I was like, oh, he's going to represent. And I'm so disappointed

00:16:28.660 by what he says. So it was like, I caught the attention because the way I look, but because

00:16:35.220 of the way I look, they assume, oh, he's one of us. You know what I mean?

00:16:39.300 Yes. And so I caught the attention, but right away, they didn't like what I have to say.

00:16:45.140 And it's the same with racism. There's some people who I can tell them, you don't have a racist

00:16:50.900 country. And it's not just me being a tourist. I've been traveling in this country for 20 years,

00:16:56.180 and I've been living in this country for more than 10 years. I become a US citizen. This is not

00:17:00.580 a racist country. And this is far less racist like many countries in the world. And I've been traveling

00:17:06.980 the world. They will not listen to me. They will never, a lot of people will never listen to you

00:17:11.700 just because you're white, but they will not even, as they come to the point, they won't listen to me. 0.95

00:17:16.820 Even if I'm black, they don't care. They absolutely don't care. 0.97

00:17:21.340 I think there's a lot of laziness in it. And look, I'm guilty of it too, right? I might see

00:17:25.700 the way somebody looks, or I might see the way that they're dressed or what they have behind them on a

00:17:31.340 street, you know, like in your room or my room. And we formulate opinions about that person

00:17:36.260 and its identity politics. We want those individuals to fit into this perfect little box that we've

00:17:41.940 constructed because anything outside of that would challenge us, make us think. And therefore,

00:17:47.780 we'd have to invest some time and energy and actually rethinking how we've viewed the world.

00:17:52.740 I'm guilty of it too. Most people are. It's something that I think we need to be aware of.

00:17:57.620 Yeah, I'm totally guilty of this, you know, and the thing like, I have some very good friends,

00:18:02.660 I have some friends, American or French, who are really on the left in terms of politics.

00:18:09.620 And some of them like, are so, stay really good friends with me. And they know we like,

00:18:15.140 oh, you think this, I think that. They really stay friends to me. And sometimes when I'm guilty

00:18:20.260 or so of judgment, or I'm guilty of like, oh, I don't want to spend time with this guy because I know what

00:18:25.060 he thinks, blah, blah, blah, etc. But I have some friends who are so really good to me,

00:18:30.660 despite and besides the fact like we don't agree on many things, like he forced me to be a better

00:18:36.100 man and to say sometimes, come on, this guy is a great friend of mine. And my wife also, my wife

00:18:41.540 grew up in Los Angeles. She's a Hollywood girl. And a lot of people are very liberal in Los Angeles,

00:18:48.980 but we are very good friends. I'm not going to erase this friend because we don't think anything

00:18:55.700 alike when it comes to politics or ideology. There's some stuff we are really like, we cannot

00:19:01.380 compromise on them. But when I know the soul of someone, I'm going to keep, you know, being good

00:19:07.300 to him, you know, and good to her. You know, I cannot like say, oh, he doesn't think like me,

00:19:11.940 like so done. I'm not erasing people from my life as much as I can. I've been erased a lot.

00:19:17.620 Yeah, my friend, but my friend will obviously well not friend.

00:19:22.260 Right. Yeah, I tiptoe on the conspiracy line a little bit when it comes to this

00:19:28.580 potentially deliberate and intentional plan to keep us separated. You know, we have technology

00:19:39.220 and we're able to connect with people across the world. I had a video that I posted on Instagram

00:19:44.020 just yesterday. I looked today. It had been viewed 100,000 times. The fact that you can reach 100,000

00:19:50.260 eyeballs in a 24 hour window and more is phenomenal. We're more connected than we've ever been.

00:19:56.500 And what the way I've heard it explained is that we're so connected and yet we find it really

00:20:01.620 difficult to connect with somebody who's sitting across the dinner table from us. And I think there's

00:20:06.740 some intentionality about that because when you do break bread together and you are face to face

00:20:12.020 and you actually have to confront your differences of opinion, but in a respectful way, because there's

00:20:18.260 risk associated with doing it in person, it begins to change the narrative. And you start to see that

00:20:23.860 maybe we're a little bit more similar than we initially thought.

00:20:28.900 Yeah. And I think with a lot of people, you can always find some common grounds. You know,

00:20:32.900 there's always this, you know, try. And my wife pushed this a lot of say, try to find the common 0.53

00:20:39.140 grounds. You know, there's something you, and sometimes it can be very futile. There's something

00:20:43.780 you like together. Start the conversation by this. And it can be anything. It can be, oh,

00:20:47.940 we like cars. Oh, we like, we like this, this, this movie. And you start like this. And then you can

00:20:54.020 like, you like in a better spirit, in a better mood to, uh, to interact with these people and to kind

00:21:00.260 of know those, this, this person a little bit better. So, uh, there's an idea, like,

00:21:06.180 sometime I try to go on, I would, I would say on the other side, because, you know,

00:21:11.620 or we say we, we, we, we love the same, the same song. Let's talk about this artist. We love the

00:21:16.900 same artist. Let's talk about this. It's, it's, uh, again, it's a people, you know, it's not

00:21:21.460 technology. It's not media. It's certainly not politician. It's like finding common ground with

00:21:27.060 people and try to be respectful. And, uh, and as I grow older, so I try to avoid the idea like,

00:21:35.220 okay, I'm 51 now. I don't, you know, I don't have time for this. You know, I love my wife. I have my,

00:21:41.060 my, my, my, my bunch of solid friends of brothers. I have my two sons. You know, I love my family. I

00:21:47.700 don't have time for the, for people which I'm going to argue with. Okay. And I try to not be like

00:21:54.420 this because if I do this, the next 20, 30 years, I'm going to be like in a, in a bubble.

00:22:00.660 And I cannot be in the bubble because the world is not in the bubble. What, no matter what I want

00:22:05.380 to do, even like I'm leaving 40 minutes out of Nashville in Tennessee, in a place I really love,

00:22:10.820 I still, I still gonna meet people who absolutely don't think like me. So I will never fight. Nobody

00:22:18.260 will find a bubble. So I'm trying to be like, okay, as you get older, don't be just this

00:22:24.260 old man who say, okay, I got my tribe. I got my people and I'm not talking to you. Yeah. I tried

00:22:30.020 to fight this and I'm guilty to not always be good at it. Yeah. I mean, the other side of it though,

00:22:36.980 is that I don't, there's so much contention in the world and I've bought into it at times and,

00:22:43.140 you know, admittedly it gets clicks, right? Yeah. I, I've just come to the conclusion,

00:22:48.340 even just over the past several months, I don't, I don't want to actually be an angry person. I don't,

00:22:53.140 I don't want to be contentious. I don't want to be upset. I don't want to fight with

00:22:57.860 faceless strangers on the internet. That sounds so ridiculous to me now. It wasn't six months ago 0.96

00:23:03.860 because I was engaged in it, but I, you know, it's hard to find the balance between wanting to be a man

00:23:09.380 who's involved in cultural change, but shield it enough that it doesn't change you at the core and

00:23:17.620 make you a really negative contentious person, which is what I was becoming.

00:23:22.420 Yeah. Yeah. I was guilty of this, especially during the, the 2020, the pandemic and the presidential

00:23:28.500 run. I was getting angry and upset every single day. And I was posting, I was in Twitter back in

00:23:34.740 the day and I was posting stuff, upset and angry, which were not like, which were not like,

00:23:41.140 I don't think so stupid or anything, but it was really like being strong on my opinion

00:23:47.620 and being so upset at all the stuff which happening in the world. Like I was like, 0.96

00:23:51.620 and I was pushing this and I get a lot actually of followers and interaction, etc. But that's exactly

00:23:57.540 the same thing. You said, I don't want to be this angry man. I don't want to be this upset. I don't

00:24:02.900 want to be upset and angry. And, uh, and, and on top of it, like my wife always say like,

00:24:09.460 I have a quality. I'm a, she said, your quality since obviously since I was a kid,

00:24:13.380 that's what she thinks. I'm a happy guy. I'm happy. You know, I'm, I'm not this, I'm not this

00:24:21.300 mean bad man. I don't even look like mean and bad. I have this face. I have this mind. Even my voice,

00:24:27.700 you know, I have a high pitch voice. My son make fun of me like for this, my, my old, the whole

00:24:33.860 last 10 years. So you know, at some point, you know, you're going to attract people to listen or

00:24:39.860 to think about stuff by being you. You never been this guy who's going to be negative and dark and

00:24:45.860 upset. If you do this, people who like, who think like you're going to be, oh, they're going to be,

00:24:51.060 oh, you're right, Chris. They're going to love you more, but you're not going to attract anybody

00:24:55.380 else. And you just, yeah, you just get people who agree with you and we keep angry. You keep,

00:25:01.140 we keep getting angry and now you don't want to live like this. It's a poison. It's a poison for

00:25:06.820 yourself. It really is. It's crippling. It's a poison. A lot of times we don't even know how

00:25:12.820 toxic it is. It infiltrates our lives. I was talking with my wife today about, you know,

00:25:18.820 the way I was behaving, I would say in the last, you know, year or so. And we were talking about

00:25:25.780 something specific and I won't get into details because that's between her and I, but I came to

00:25:30.900 the realization, even just today, it was about an hour before we jumped on the podcast that

00:25:34.700 the way that I would have handled this particular situation seven months ago, eight months ago was,

00:25:40.260 would be completely different. And part of it was the toxicity that was in my life that I allowed

00:25:44.980 to come into my life. And I didn't even realize how bad it got until I let go of it. And I'm in

00:25:51.460 a different place now. And I see things so much more clearly, painfully at times about how I was

00:25:57.700 behaving. Absolutely. And that's what we do. My wife and I, we do this for each other. And luckily,

00:26:04.980 we rarely upset at something at the same time. So she got upset. Like I remember we, we, we drop a

00:26:11.540 son, he visited for the weekend. Our older son, he visited us last weekend. We drop here on Monday

00:26:16.260 and things were happening, et cetera. And my wife was reading some article on the, on the drive back

00:26:21.860 from the airport and she was getting upset. And so, and me, I was not, I was still on the pleasure on the,

00:26:28.820 the good time we had with her son. So I was like, you know, trying to calm her down and say, okay,

00:26:35.060 we just had a great weekend, you know, don't push. Yeah. I agree with you. And the thing is like,

00:26:39.620 you know, it's good. Like it's, that's an important part of our relationship.

00:26:44.580 I noticed where I love my, I love my wife and I'm, I really marry up. She's a fantastic human being. 0.96

00:26:51.620 And the thing is like, we always hear when the other one needed, you know? So when I was getting

00:26:56.660 upset, she never fueled my rage. And when she got upset, I don't feel a rage. And something

00:27:02.740 would be easy because we have the same value and we think the same things. I would be,

00:27:07.220 oh yes, you're right. Did you write this? Did you read this? No. Most of the time when I see,

00:27:11.300 oh, it's boiling, it's boiling. I'm kind of like, let's talk about something else. Love,

00:27:15.300 you know, I take, you know, change. I put the radio, I put a song, you know, and that's,

00:27:20.820 that's really important. You know, you need, you need to channel, channel your anger, you know,

00:27:26.740 and now I channel my anger doing good things in a relationship too, by the way. How long did

00:27:32.500 it take me in any kind of relationship with a woman to say, when I get angry in an argument, 0.50

00:27:37.460 walk away. It took me 30 years. You know, I started- Why does it take so long?

00:27:42.020 In my late forties, I'm 51. And so what it's, it's great for a relationship, a marriage, a group,

00:27:50.500 you know, you get, you get angry in an argument, sometimes walk away, don't try to win.

00:27:57.540 And the same thing with anger. Anger, at some point, you, you lose your thought,

00:28:02.340 you lose your idea, you lose the clarity of your system, of your reasoning, and you just want to

00:28:09.220 win. And when I was posting something on Instagram, sorry, and I'm still guilty of this sometime,

00:28:14.260 I want to post something because I want to punch the other side, and I want to win ideologically,

00:28:20.660 ideologically, in terms of ideology, by saying some stuff with like, I don't, I don't think like

00:28:26.980 you. Take this. But winning, it's not winning. And something with a relationship in a marriage,

00:28:32.020 when you want to, oh, you want to win the argument, you know. My wife helped me a lot progress on this,

00:28:38.180 and she could be guilty of this, but she said, do you want to be happy or do you want to win?

00:28:43.140 And that's always what I told also my son now in relationship. It's like, you know,

00:28:47.300 men and women, we're not the same, you know. Don't try to win the argument, you know. If you,

00:28:53.700 and especially not when it's an argument, not when you're upset. Try to win the debate sometime with

00:28:59.940 people. But with your, with your girlfriend, fiancee, wife, don't try to win. Walk away.

00:29:06.020 Yeah. And, and most of the time I found that when I'm trying to win these types of arguments,

00:29:09.940 whether it's with my wife or my kids or a stranger online, it's, it's dumb. You know, 0.98

00:29:14.580 you, you look back 24 hours later and you're like, wait, what were we arguing about? You don't

00:29:18.340 even remember 24 hours later because it was stupid. It wasn't worth even having a discussion about, 1.00

00:29:22.980 let alone an argument over. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, and it's funny because

00:29:29.140 it's not worthy with your wife or your kids. You love them. You love them dearly. They matter to you.

00:29:35.460 And it's not worthy with a stranger. At the two opposite sides, there's people you really care about.

00:29:40.500 It's not worthy because you care about them. You love them so much, but it's not worthy with a

00:29:44.740 stranger because he's a stranger. He's somebody who knows nothing about you and you know nothing

00:29:50.020 about him or her. So it's like sometimes, but yeah, we need to grow up. You know, I was not like

00:29:56.260 that, uh, that, uh, with, I didn't have that wisdom like my entire life, you know, but it's, it's,

00:30:02.580 it gets obvious when you think about it, when you see like, I cannot talk with a stranger.

00:30:08.500 Or, or you do it wrong enough over a period of time and you're feeling the weight and the

00:30:13.780 consequences of it. You know, we, we learn as men. I think we, we, sometimes we choose to learn

00:30:18.900 the hard lessons and we don't need to, but we do because we're hard headed and stubborn.

00:30:24.260 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I know for a fact, like when you argue with your wife, your woman, you know, 0.99

00:30:30.340 and you get mad and you say stuff and not necessarily like very bad stuff, but you say

00:30:35.380 stuff, you leave some traces. It's like, it's a bruise. It's an emotional bruise.

00:30:40.500 And the way my experience in life and the way women and men are, are wired differently.

00:30:48.100 It's not like they say, it's not like they don't forget or forgive or anything like this,

00:30:53.140 but it's just like, you're gonna leave a scar and you don't want to punch, to punch and 0.70

00:30:58.660 punch a woman and leave her some scars. So every one of this argument, when basically you try to

00:31:04.020 win it. So by we need like verbally, you punching. Yeah. You punching actually, you know, and she's 1.00

00:31:11.460 gonna still maybe probably love you, et cetera. If you have a good relationship, but if you are not

00:31:14.740 things stuff, which are absolutely outrageous and insulting, she's going to forgive and forget,

00:31:19.300 but it's going to stay there. And, and this, I don't want this anymore. And really, I'm very

00:31:25.300 cautious with my wife to not do this, especially like, you know, we, we're not young people anymore.

00:31:30.500 And I want to be us at peace for the rest of our life. So that matters a lot in a relationship

00:31:35.780 with a woman, in my opinion. What are some of your outlets? I imagine with photography,

00:31:41.540 I gotta, I've got to imagine that's a creative outlet for you. Are there other outlets that you

00:31:46.020 have in your life that help you if you do get upset or you do get angry, or, you know,

00:31:51.460 you have some thoughts about that you direct those towards healthy outlets?

00:31:56.420 You know, you know what, uh, doing something, you know, taking somewhere, going, doing for work,

00:32:02.500 work, uh, doing something physical. I'm not to the point, you know, you, you really work out and

00:32:08.100 you really do it. I'm not doing this kind of stuff much, but doing something and changing my mind

00:32:14.660 from being in my thought to actually doing something can be anything. Now I'm, I'm lucky

00:32:20.340 I live on the range of 40 acres. So I go for work with my dogs. Uh, uh, I'm going to shoot a little

00:32:25.460 bit by gun, you know, to be on something which, uh, demand me to be like, you know, in the process,

00:32:31.620 very something, you know, the safety, the firearms are really good for this because you cannot do this.

00:32:37.540 You need to channel and calm down your anger right away because there's a process, there's safety

00:32:42.100 rules, et cetera. And I take this very seriously. And so it's something which can help me like get

00:32:47.700 out of like any anger, any like, Ooh, like, and calm it down right away because you know,

00:32:52.340 you do the stuff, you do the things safely. Then you do your breathing, like to all your guns,

00:32:57.060 this kind of stuff helped me. Uh, but all I see to be the most, the most important thing is like,

00:33:02.100 like I always told my, my two boys, like you are the five, you have, you are your five best friends.

00:33:09.860 Okay. And so the, the people you hang with at any, any edge of your life and the people who love you,

00:33:18.740 esteem and admire you, and you love them, esteem and admire you. That's the people you can keep you

00:33:24.260 accountable. So I have some friends. I'm not going to talk if I'm mad. I'm not going to talk about

00:33:32.020 the argument, et cetera, but I'm surrounded by a community of brothers who keep me accountable.

00:33:37.700 I, I, I don't know how to explain it like really well, but to see like, I'm at this point of my 0.97

00:33:43.380 life when I'm, I don't want to be an asshole to anybody, certainly not to my wife. I don't want 0.97

00:33:49.940 to be an asshole to my community, to my, to my neighbors, et cetera. And, uh, I find a very 0.98

00:33:56.740 beautiful community, a strong community. And I'm part of a community here and I have some brothers,

00:34:02.180 we're doing Bible study every Thursday. It was taught by my neighbor right, right there.

00:34:07.140 And when you hang out with these people very often and we text and we do stuff together

00:34:13.540 and we know our wife and we know our children and we know our life. And every Thursday we stop,

00:34:18.500 we read, we talk about that in a very personal level. It has like a long lasting effect.

00:34:25.620 Uh, what we do every Thursday morning lasts all Thursday and being on this discipline and then

00:34:32.740 the personal part of it. I, I, I read the Bible, you know, I, yeah, I'm on this pro I'm on this

00:34:39.940 journey. I'm on this path, on this process. You feel, yes, there's a time with the community,

00:34:46.420 the time with my brother and the time by myself, which now I'm, I read the Bible. I pray much more

00:34:51.700 often. Uh, I educate myself. So I keep me accountable without having needed to talk to anybody. Just

00:34:59.300 the fact, like I, the friend I have in my life, I don't even need to pick the phone

00:35:05.700 because they're a part of my life. And I'm going to see like frequently and I have, I have, we are

00:35:11.780 all model for each other. And you know, the first time my, my neighbor who has to actually start this

00:35:17.460 Bible study every Thursday, we've, we really click. I love him. I love his whole family. And, and

00:35:23.620 the feeling is, I see progress. That's a beautiful thing. But one time he told me at the beginning of

00:35:28.660 our friendship, he said, I love you, you around Chris, you're going to make me accountable as a man,

00:35:34.740 as a husband, as a father. And at first I didn't understand this, especially because he's a great

00:35:39.380 man. I was like more, I'm going to look up to you. But then now we develop this friendship,

00:35:44.660 we develop this brotherhood. I'm like, it's an effect to stay on me even when we are not together.

00:35:49.780 It doesn't need to, to witness anything I do in my daily life. By having this friendship, by knowing

00:35:58.180 who he is, by knowing who another friend Matt is, another friend John is, another friend Sean,

00:36:04.100 we know, I know who they are. So he has this effect of me to make me accountable on my daily life

00:36:12.340 every day as a man. And that's much more important, like for me personally, that's much more important

00:36:17.780 like anything I said at first, like going for work, doing some physical activity. I have a very lasting

00:36:25.220 effect on what I'm building as a brotherhood with this man. That's why what you do, Order of Men,

00:36:33.140 really talk to me. And, and it's funny because you started to do stuff like, like a long time ago now.

00:36:40.260 And me, I am on this path for the last year, for the last six, seven months, really. And I can see

00:36:46.980 the benefit of it, you know.

00:36:48.420 Man, let me step away from the conversation very briefly. We'll get right back to it in

00:36:53.620 a minute. I want to ask you, what does it mean to have accountability and how does a man build it?

00:36:59.780 I think it's an answer that is different for everything. But one thing I know for certain

00:37:04.740 is that many men are seeking after accountability in their lives. I know I certainly was. This is why

00:37:10.260 we built our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council. When you partner with us, you're going to

00:37:17.460 find the accountability from other men needed to draw the very best out of you and also push you

00:37:23.040 to the next level. Accountability is something that is very hard to find on your own. And it's

00:37:28.660 also very difficult to create or manufacture, but we built the systems and the processes to hold your

00:37:33.520 feet to the fire and ensure you're on the very best path. And if you're not, or you slip along the

00:37:39.580 way, we all have a tendency of doing that. The brothers you'll find inside the Iron Council would be

00:37:43.860 there shoulder to shoulder with you on your journey. So we open up in mid-March. So if you want to be

00:37:50.980 notified of when we do, head to orderofman.com slash Iron Council. Again, that's orderofman.com

00:37:57.740 slash Iron Council. Do that right after the conversation. For now, let's get back to it with

00:38:02.360 Chris. I'm really glad you're talking about this because, I mean, this is something that we address

00:38:07.680 and what's interesting is I often address it, the importance and power of brotherhood. And even for

00:38:14.140 myself, I noticed how hard and difficult it was to develop that. And I say hard and difficult, it's

00:38:20.540 not, it's not, but it does require time. It requires energy. It requires a sacrifice. You know, you're

00:38:27.260 talking about a Thursday night, you've got kids, you've got your wife, you've got your business,

00:38:31.280 you've got all these other things, and yet you're willing to set that down temporarily to invest in

00:38:38.060 members, men in your community, your neighbors. And the thing about an investment is, is that we do it

00:38:45.860 with anticipation of some future result. And that's what a lot of guys don't understand is they think

00:38:52.160 they just have to pour their time, energy, and resources into brotherhood, but they don't see the

00:38:56.120 tangible, measurable result immediately. But I'm telling you guys, and I think you're, you're,

00:39:01.300 you're finding this, obviously this is what you're explaining is the power of having these guys in

00:39:05.920 your corner and the sacrifice it takes to make sure you're doing that every single week and what that

00:39:10.820 brings to your life and what that brings to these other men's lives. Yeah. And you are certainly right

00:39:15.940 about the fact, like you want tangible research and men want to tangible research. And I see,

00:39:21.120 and there's nothing wrong about it because you are, if you are the process, if you're on your path,

00:39:25.380 you want to better yourself, you want to be a better husband, a better father, a better friend,

00:39:29.280 a better brother, et cetera, et cetera. You want to do, okay, I'm going to do this because I want

00:39:34.320 this. But sometimes there's no tangible effect. You, you just getting better. And you realize at

00:39:42.600 some point, what is the tangible effect? And I didn't realize this until some stuff happened in my life

00:39:49.340 and the way I react in a total calm, calm place in my mind right now, when something happened,

00:39:56.900 which will have triggered me back in the day of anxiety, of fear, et cetera. And sometime after

00:40:02.660 some stuff happened, I'm like, wow, I was not like this, but it's not like, oh, I couldn't feel it

00:40:10.920 until, until it happens. So it was not a tangible result I was looking for. And it was not a tangible

00:40:17.880 result I could have think about until it really happened. And then it happened repeatedly. It

00:40:24.940 happened repeatedly when something, when, when the shit is the fun now, I'm gone. And I never be like 0.98

00:40:32.380 overreacting or freaking out, but I will be like anxious and fearful and like, and pessimistic and

00:40:40.980 say, what's, oh, I'm going to do this. How are we going to do this? So, oh, here we go again with

00:40:45.160 this issue, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm like, okay. And I'm, and I'm moving on and I'm moving on

00:40:50.260 by acting and, and trying to, trying to solve it. Even if I don't know how to solve it, I'm moving on in

00:40:55.640 my lap. I'm doing something in a quiet space. And yes, that's a, that's a tangible result I could

00:41:02.620 have seen when I started to do this six months ago. So you attribute that to having the guys in

00:41:09.040 your community that you talk with on a regular basis, that level of, of clarity or calmness when,

00:41:13.900 when you are feeling anxious or have things come up in your life? Yeah. I also attribute this above

00:41:21.700 this to, to God and to my faith. I really had the renewal of my faith the last two years.

00:41:27.740 I was never a Nazi or anything, but in my family, I was, I was mostly the only one a little bit

00:41:33.420 interested about, into religion in France. And I never really find in France people to really talk

00:41:41.140 about it. So I was, you know, I did, I have a college degree in history. So I did some theology

00:41:46.740 in college, but Islam mostly actually. And I always like have this interest, but it was

00:41:53.100 very, something very personal, you know, and I never found the people to really talk about

00:41:58.340 it. And some stuff happened the last two years. It came actually more by our older son,

00:42:04.540 which on his own will went, I started to went to a church in Santa Monica, in Dallas when

00:42:10.700 he was in college. And then in Santa Monica, when he was coming back for, for, for holidays

00:42:14.800 and weekend, and he went with my wife and I started to go. So there was like a complete

00:42:20.800 renewal of my faith. And, and that's why my friend, when he started his Bible study every

00:42:27.760 Thursday morning, he invited me. So it's all this process. So the brotherhood is fantastic

00:42:33.180 because that's some people I can talk about religion. I can talk, we read the Bible, we read

00:42:39.500 two, two chapters every Thursday and we talk about it. So we can talk about everything. And I have

00:42:44.600 some people who actually have like a lifelong education in Christianity, which I, from the

00:42:51.880 family sometimes, you know, some, so he opened for me, like they, they boost, they boost my

00:42:58.800 journey. They help me, like, you know, it's very, it's very fruitful and it's very like

00:43:03.720 rewarding because I can barely, without fear, I can like fearlessly, like fearlessly talk about

00:43:11.880 religion. And that's, that's what helped me. So the brotherhood is important, but we all

00:43:19.640 give praise to God, seriously. And to, you know, and we all, we are all together and every one of us

00:43:26.840 are every Thursday morning at this place and we can start to grow up the group because

00:43:33.320 ultimately we want to talk about God and we want to live like we want to practice the way of Jesus 0.96

00:43:39.000 and we want to live like this. So I cannot lie. That's what helped me like a lot, a lot better

00:43:46.120 myself, but everything clicked together at the same time. You know, it's not like I didn't went from bad

00:43:51.320 place and I found religion. I was always like having a face, not really finding in France for

00:43:59.000 sure for not. And even in, in the USA, not really find the people to talk about it and to share and to

00:44:05.880 learn from. So I found this and, and then like, yes, it actually like, yeah, it makes, it's pretentious

00:44:16.120 to say, it makes me a better man. He actually makes me being much more calm and happy and in the

00:44:22.280 great spot to be a good husband to my wife and to be a better father to my two boys. That's

00:44:28.760 definitely helping. And, and the brotherhood of my friend, it's just like, it's a bonus and you know,

00:44:35.000 it's priceless. That's a, our stories are actually similar in some regards, uh, in that I'm finding

00:44:43.880 more of my, my journey with faith, you know, right now. And I was listening to something by

00:44:49.560 Jordan Peterson earlier today, and he was, he shared something interesting. He said, you know,

00:44:53.880 we, we place value, of course I'm paraphrasing, but we value different things. And sometimes those

00:44:59.320 things that we value are at odds with each other. For example, we might value the relationship we have

00:45:04.600 with our wife and our children. And also we place value on being a meaningful contributing member of

00:45:12.040 society through the work that we do. And those are at odds sometimes because sometimes we have to work

00:45:18.440 and, and also we want to be with our families. He said, the reason that we have this higher power

00:45:23.880 or authority or God is that that becomes the, the highest or the, the, the, the tip of the spear,

00:45:32.420 if you will, or the top of the pyramid in what we value. And it begins to integrate all of these other

00:45:38.080 values together. So you can begin to see why valuing your family, but also valuing meaningful

00:45:44.960 contribution to society, how they're integrated. And for me, it's, it's brought me a level of,

00:45:51.920 of confidence, I would say, and that I know the map that I'm supposed to be following now,

00:45:58.780 whether or not I follow it, that's a whole other conversation, but I know what it is.

00:46:03.340 And if I strive to follow that roadmap based on that hierarchy of values, I have faith and it's

00:46:10.380 proven to produce good results in my life. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like it's funny. You

00:46:16.320 talk about this because like on the last Bible study, less serves there, one of, one of my brother,

00:46:22.040 and he's, he's really a spiritual mentor. I have two spiritual mentors, Randy and Sean,

00:46:26.520 I want to name them on purpose. And Sean was saying like, you know, when, when you started to put God

00:46:34.860 front and center, actually everything click around really perfectly. And you actually,

00:46:42.000 yes, you, you say it in a very interesting and very smart way, wise way. When you say like,

00:46:47.140 you know, it's upper hierarchy, it's a, yeah, upper hierarchy of front and center. And if we see

00:46:52.480 click, like, you know, uh, I'm really much more on this path. Like my wife doesn't mean like,

00:46:59.480 doesn't mean she's not on the path at all. It's a different path. I would say, for instance,

00:47:04.240 she's not in the Bible study, et cetera. It's not like we have like to, to copy stuff or to have

00:47:08.420 like one system. But the funny thing is like, if not the funny thing, the interesting thing,

00:47:13.340 like my wife can tell I'm a, I'm a changed man. She can tell, and she truly appreciate it. And,

00:47:21.480 and, and at the same time, it's more easy for us now, because we empty Nestor. We have two boys,

00:47:27.780 19 and 23. The 23 live in New York. He has his job. The 19 is at West Point. He does his job. So

00:47:33.460 it's easy because just the two of us, but anyway, she can tell like everything we have to deal,

00:47:39.260 even at this time with, with our sons or even with friends or family, I'm much more solid

00:47:45.380 to deal with anything. And, uh, and so, and he doesn't oppose anything. You know, my wife

00:47:52.880 know every Thursday I'm doing this every Thursday morning, you know, uh, this stuff I do, but it's

00:47:59.340 not a sacrifice anymore because she knows exactly what he brings to the table. She knows exactly what

00:48:04.480 that he, that he brings not only to our life as my wife and to our marriage, but what he brings

00:48:10.940 and how much he influenced to this day. Even if we are empty Nestor, Patrick and Thomas, my two sons,

00:48:16.960 I mean, it affects the family. I can react and I'm not perfect. Of course, you know, it's not like

00:48:22.140 suddenly I'm perfect, you know, but yeah, in a positive way, any kind of relationship. So you don't

00:48:27.740 make that much of the sacrifice anymore. So yeah, it's very interesting. Like you get back to what you

00:48:33.540 say about the hierarchy and, or putting God front and center, front and center and everything going

00:48:39.620 to, going to be around like flowing around naturally. Right. Right. I want to, uh, I want

00:48:46.240 to shift gears a little bit. I'm interested in your transition. You know, you're, you're a photographer.

00:48:50.260 Some of the guys may know that, uh, you photograph for the NBA for a lot of years. You're no longer

00:48:55.040 doing that. I understand. Um, but, but then now you're, uh, doing photography for PBR, which,

00:49:02.240 you know, obviously all sports, but completely different cultures, you know, completely different

00:49:08.860 arena. And I'm really curious about that transition and how, how that's been for you.

00:49:13.840 Yes. Uh, uh, to, uh, to submit, submit it quick. Um, I was a sports photographer for 17 years and

00:49:20.800 mostly I've been specialized covering the NBA as a freelance. I always did everything as

00:49:24.820 a freelance. And when I cover the NBA at some point, uh, I started to get to be represented

00:49:30.500 by the NBA. So my photo was sold, was sold via Getty image, which is a famous photo agency.

00:49:37.220 Uh, I started to shoot PBR four or five years ago, just because, uh, my love, my love for America,

00:49:44.340 uh, was with the meat of the Cowboys. So basically I wanted to know more about the Western culture,

00:49:50.120 something I didn't know, like Cowboys, you know, uh, wranglers being on the horse, like, you know,

00:49:55.680 and, uh, riding, uh, riding bronc and riding boots, et cetera. So I was like, okay, what I know how to do

00:50:01.180 is to take photography, to learn the Western culture. Let's approach it by doing photography.

00:50:06.220 That's why I learned, uh, uh, I approach the culture. I stopped being an NBA photographer and I retired for

00:50:12.800 the job following last season because of what the NBA is. That's another conversation. And, uh, I shoot PBR,

00:50:19.320 start the freelance and, uh, and it started like, and I'm going to shoot the American rodeo in March

00:50:25.240 in, uh, in, uh, in Texas for the company to enrich. And the thing is like, uh, again, like

00:50:31.580 God's plan, you know, because when I started shooting PBR years ago, first I met so many great

00:50:37.520 people. I learned about the culture. I was not really making a lot of money out of it. I could do

00:50:43.440 it because I was making a lot of money with the NBA. And then when I retired from the NBA,

00:50:48.360 it was like a long transition of six, seven months when I didn't shoot anything. I shoot

00:50:52.460 PBR one time. And, uh, and then I've been contacted to shoot the American rodeo by Teton

00:50:57.880 Ridge. But the idea, photography was a mean to me to work in the USA in an easy way. You

00:51:05.600 know, the fact that I have like my French accent, et cetera, don't care. You take, uh, you take a

00:51:10.880 body camera, the image. I can cover sports. Sports are popular in France. The NBA is very

00:51:15.180 popular in France. That's a mean, but I love the expression of it. And, and then I wanted

00:51:21.760 to learn about the cowboy. Same. What, what do I do best? I can take pictures. So I went

00:51:27.680 to, to learn about the cowboy. And the funny thing is like, when I decided to retire from

00:51:32.280 the NBA, I was like, ah, man, I might not shoot sports ever again because yeah, I can shoot

00:51:37.280 PBR once in a while, but I'm not picking a lot of money out of it. And suddenly I'm

00:51:41.760 going to shoot the American rodeo next month. And the funny thing is like, actually it's

00:51:46.400 going to be the, one of the best sports, the best pay I had in 17 years of careers at

00:51:52.720 sports because sports pay, but over, you know, you know, because you, you have like

00:51:57.720 an archive, a stock, et cetera. So it's kind of a, one of the funny thing, but everything

00:52:03.080 goes back to use a tool to achieve your dreams. And also everything goes back to like following

00:52:10.220 your dream. I love America. I decided to be a sports photographer to cover the U.S. sport.

00:52:16.100 And then I love the cowboys, the Western culture. I wanted to learn. I decided to shoot this

00:52:20.100 and everything. And I've been provided by this incredible reward. I have a 17 years career

00:52:25.920 of an NBA photographer. I cover six NBA finals. I shot like great, great player, great athletes

00:52:31.280 and great games. And now more and more exciting to do stuff in the rodeo arena area. And he

00:52:38.620 comes back to America. Just my love. I'm just, I'm the same kid at seven years old who dressed

00:52:43.980 up at the cowboy with his gun. I'm the same one. I'm just 51 years old. And I'm still

00:52:49.520 like, look at this guy with big eyes. And then because I love them, because I love the culture,

00:52:55.380 because I love everything about it. I think that's what makes me take good picture of them.

00:53:00.540 And I keep following my dreams, like following the people and the thing I like.

00:53:05.320 It's got to be pretty amazing that at seven, eight years old, where, you know, you've got

00:53:09.160 movies that you're watching and probably John Wayne and things like that. And then now to be where you

00:53:13.980 are, to be front and center with these guys that are writing 2000 pound bulls and trying to hold on

00:53:21.040 for dear life. Uh, I'm curious about the culture among men. Uh, what would you say is the difference

00:53:29.900 between generally speaking, I guess the NBA and what you're seeing with PBR and the rodeo circuits

00:53:36.380 that you're part of now? Uh, the value, the value are real and the marketing, the marketing is based

00:53:46.480 on the value when it comes to rodeo and PBR. So the way they market themselves, and we're talking

00:53:52.100 about advertising, we're talking about the photography, we're talking about the, the, the TV

00:53:57.000 clips, et cetera. That's actually real. They believe in what they do. Is this, see the culture of,

00:54:03.360 this is a country, a rural country culture. This is people who are actually rancher, cowboy, et cetera,

00:54:09.400 who grew up in, in, in this, in this culture, it's this education. So they don't fake it. It's kind of,

00:54:17.060 it's incredible for a French, a guy who was born in France and grew up in France. It's like, this is,

00:54:23.220 this is absolutely, absolutely the reality of the myth. So there's a myth of the cowboy and everything

00:54:30.800 can be our topic can be the value he has, the endurance, the resilience, the, the will to not

00:54:37.840 complain, the will to, to, to wake up early, to do the work, et cetera. And you, you, you could think

00:54:46.000 like, no, this is, this is too beautiful to be true. And it's actually true. And everybody in the

00:54:53.020 Western culture, we're talking about PBR or American rodeo, rodeo guy, et cetera. But you're talking

00:54:58.440 when I've been to ranch in Wyoming, when I've been to place in Montana, no matter the size of the ranch

00:55:04.720 of the farm, this is real. So the PBR markets something, which is really real. And you know this.

00:55:11.040 And when you work with them, you say, yes, this is real. So NBA on the other side, it's an hypocrite. 1.00

00:55:18.040 They are really hypocrite and they hypocrite and they, they do the marketing to please people. 1.00

00:55:24.280 I'm going to give you an example. The NBA, they are like, mostly the player are black. So it's easy 1.00

00:55:32.540 to say that, Oh, we, we, we, we really anti-racism because we have black people. So we're going to

00:55:38.000 push this, push this, push this. But that's just a lie. They don't even believe it. They don't

00:55:43.280 believe in equity, equity, equity, equity, equity, and stuff, equality and stuff like equity. So

00:55:49.200 they don't believe in it. And I have one simple example. Sometimes I'm like, there's 30 NBA team

00:55:56.320 and there's a little more than 30 NBA official team photographer. And all of them are white,

00:56:03.300 which is absolutely fine for me because I never grew up with like, I don't want anything because

00:56:08.680 of my skin color. That's not like the way my father raised me. That's not, I never see

00:56:13.300 life like this, but the NBA used skin color as a marketing tool, as a marketing prop, you

00:56:20.900 know, when there was a pandemic and they get back to the, in Orlando and they play in the

00:56:26.260 bubble, they was putting black life matter on the floor, but they weren't, they didn't 0.99

00:56:30.880 have one photographer who was remotely black, you know? So, which is not a problem.

00:56:35.560 They are all great guys and they deserve this spot, but the NBA use value and use slogan

00:56:41.800 and use ID. They don't believe it. They just don't. They're not going to do any effort because

00:56:49.100 you are black or Latino or anything. They just pretend they care so much about it. So they 0.99

00:56:56.200 push like this stupid value and the guy from the NBA comes with really different, like a bragging, 0.99

00:57:03.260 et cetera. So, I mean, there's no two guys same, but it's not like the, the guy on the 0.98

00:57:09.200 radio circuit, the guy from PBR, they are just all solid men. They have men who are going to

00:57:14.340 look at you, say hi to you, shake your hands, look into the eyes, et cetera, notice you in

00:57:20.820 the NBA, maybe because they are too big, maybe they are too rich, maybe the way they were raised.

00:57:25.340 They don't care, you know? So the value, the value they promote in the NBA are fake. The value

00:57:33.120 promoting the Western culture in the Western sport are real, are just, we're going to sell

00:57:39.560 you what we are. And they do. And it shows, it shows immediately. In six months shooting

00:57:46.920 the PBR, I got so, I got, I'm much more friends than in 15 years shooting the NBA.

00:57:54.700 Is that right? Wow.

00:57:56.060 At every level, every level of the organization up to the CEO of PBR, which is a man I know,

00:58:03.160 you know? So, and, and I'm, I'm the same guy. I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of a nice

00:58:12.300 guy. I'm not somebody which is impressive or anything. So why in one organization, I know

00:58:18.880 everybody, everybody working there. And in another organization, I make some friends along the,

00:58:25.300 mostly of the photographer. I don't, I don't really know. I know one guy, one guy who became

00:58:30.760 a friend was that he was at my birthday, my 50 years old birthday, two years ago, but

00:58:35.700 that's it. I, I, I never met other real friends in the PBR organization from top to bottom.

00:58:42.240 I can say, I know dozens of people.

00:58:45.620 I wonder, I wonder if that is, well, it's just interesting. You know, you consider the

00:58:49.940 reach of, of these rodeo circuits relative to the reach of the NBA. It's not even comparable,

00:58:56.180 right? But I wonder if now that you're saying that, that part of the reason it's not,

00:59:00.760 is because it actually is a lifestyle and the amount of people living the lifestyle of ranchers

00:59:06.860 and cowboys is significantly less than those who might pick up a basketball and play, you

00:59:12.760 know, pick a basketball in their driveway, for example. And, and maybe that, maybe that

00:59:17.500 authenticity of it, that genuineness of it will reach a smaller audience, but they'll be fully

00:59:24.280 committed and bought in because it is so genuine.

00:59:27.200 Yeah. Listen, to become a NBA player or NFL player, I'm NBA player. It's like, it's a

00:59:32.200 lot of work. It's one, one, one in a million. It's a lot of work, et cetera, but says, and

00:59:38.020 you need talent, et cetera, et cetera. Sure. Every time a rider ride a bull, it's life or

00:59:44.800 death situation. When they get injured, they don't have a strength back and not playing for

00:59:50.600 three or four games. They don't, they don't, they don't, they don't, they don't do the

00:59:56.040 stuff like the beginning of the season. There's a, there's a training camps and the exhibition

01:00:01.420 game. I'm not playing because I'm getting ready for the season. It doesn't happen. These

01:00:06.420 guys, they ride a bull to make money. If they don't ride the bull, they don't make money.

01:00:10.660 You know, I see, I see rider with a cast because they, they broke or they damaged a wrist. So

01:00:17.340 they play with the cast on the opposite side. You have, you have like an NBA player who has

01:00:22.680 a strength back, a little, a little tension in a hip or cold is going to be out for the

01:00:28.380 game tonight. So the reality of it is like, it cannot attract the same amount of people,

01:00:33.720 but yes, but it's two different breed of people. It's two different breed of men.

01:00:41.560 Still admiration for a lot of, and a season with 72 games, not 72, 82 games plus playoff,

01:00:48.940 et cetera. It's a long season in NBA. But still it's, it's a different breed of men. It's a

01:00:55.140 different, it's so demanding. And the fact like the money is so, you know, I don't want to name

01:01:00.900 them, but I know players who had contract. It's ridiculous. Especially in the last 15 0.67

01:01:07.100 years, since I started, since the Jordan era, some guy like had contract and you are like,

01:01:13.140 back in the day, Jordan makes this, Bird makes this, Charles Barkley made this, and you got

01:01:18.100 this contract. It becomes such a business. Like the money is crazy. And there's some perversion

01:01:23.980 with the money. If you make that kind of, that much money, like, yeah, you're not going

01:01:29.660 to put the same kind of effort, you know, compared to a rider who's going to go beyond

01:01:34.820 the circuit. And, and they said, and they keep the love of what they're doing. This guy,

01:01:40.820 the bull rider, they love riding bull. As crazy as it is, they love riding bull. I think

01:01:46.280 some players, they love, some NBA players, they love everything which comes with the game.

01:01:50.960 And some of them really loves the game. Some of them like are happy to be here and to be

01:01:56.680 to this level. They don't have the same kind of love.

01:02:00.800 Interesting. I'm also curious about your style. You know, that's one thing that obviously stands

01:02:06.640 out. If people just see you, you know, you're probably a memorable person because of your unique

01:02:10.380 and interesting style. Are you, are you deliberate that in that as, as a way to stand out and make

01:02:17.040 yourself different? Is it simply just an expression of who you are? Like how much goes into the way

01:02:22.400 you present yourself physically? You know, uh, until I was in my early forties, late thirties,

01:02:29.160 late thirties, I never had any style. I mean, I'm pretty sure nobody would have said, Oh, Chris has a

01:02:34.180 nice style, et cetera. Uh, and I started to get a style, which was noticeable and, and get complimented

01:02:41.400 stuff. But with not, no fake humility, I never try at some point, especially when I started to

01:02:48.520 really move to the USA because I've been traveling in the USA for 20 years, a little more than 20

01:02:52.400 years. And I really moved a little more than 10 years ago. At some point I started to dress exactly

01:02:58.880 the way I wanted to dress. And again, he came back to the kid who are seven years old. One of my favorite

01:03:04.480 photos I have, uh, uncle who died like a long time ago, took it for, for my Christmas. He bought

01:03:11.600 me like a cowboy outfit and I have the cowboy outfit, everything. And I have a gun and it's mine.

01:03:16.860 And honestly, it sounded a little like ridiculous or corny, but I started to dress at four, at 37,

01:03:25.280 38, I started to dress like this mini. Like I was in the USA. I was like, I'm going to buy myself a pair

01:03:30.900 of cowboy boots, you know, and I'm going to, I'm going to get this ring. I'm going to, but just the

01:03:35.880 stuff I like, I just, I honestly didn't try to build a style. I tried, I decided to dress exactly

01:03:43.300 with the stuff I like, you know, uh, same with my fro. I decided to, to, to, um, to grow my fro

01:03:49.900 more than 10 years ago because I spent the first 40 years of my life, almost more close to 40 years

01:03:56.340 like shaving my head every four months or four weeks, you know? So I get the birth skirt

01:04:01.540 every, every four weeks. Right. And I was, I was convinced that was the only good look

01:04:06.820 for me, you know, for some reason, which is cultural. It's a black cultural thing. I

01:04:12.420 think because I see so many men like in the USA, it's like shaving the head. Jordan has 0.97

01:04:16.800 had a big effect on it, but I was convinced, Oh, I will never look good at will. And at some

01:04:21.320 point, a little more than 10 years ago, I was like, I'm done with shaving. I've had

01:04:26.040 going to a barbershop every four weeks. I'm done with it. I'm just like, I'm just going

01:04:29.480 to let it grow. I don't care. I'm just going to let it grow. And I was not caring also because

01:04:33.480 I was never the guy who pay attention to his style or anything like this. So it's not like

01:04:38.760 I was like, I was like, Oh, if I don't look sweet, I never saw myself looking really good.

01:04:44.440 So I was like, I'm going to just like, I'm done. And I grew up. And the funny is I grew up

01:04:49.000 at the same time. I was really moving forward to the USA. And he was, it's kind of a smile

01:04:54.040 magnet. A lot of people came to me. Oh, the floor. You remember the seventies. I got a lot

01:04:59.800 of black people, but even white people. I had the Jewish floor back in the days. They showed 0.99

01:05:03.800 me picture when they were young. So he becomes something like really positive and finally

01:05:08.200 got it. And I keep it because it was fine. It was cool. And then I met my wife and my wife,

01:05:14.600 she doesn't like me at all. Even when I shortened the floor, she doesn't like me at all.

01:05:19.640 But he was not deliberate in the part. Like I need to look cool. I need to look like this.

01:05:23.720 The funny thing, I become the cool guy in my forties, just wearing the stuff I want to wear.

01:05:28.840 And sometimes I go in, in area, I left, I like 70 stuff. I can have like some,

01:05:33.720 some shirt with a big, you know, big butterfly.

01:05:37.960 Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day, my son, when I was speaking about at high school,

01:05:41.720 they were like, Oh my Chris. Oh no. Come on. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. Let's go. Let's leave.

01:05:45.560 You know, because I was, it was too much. And I was not doing this, but anybody for,

01:05:50.840 for anybody, but me, I always, always pay attention. Like, uh, it, it, it pleased my wife.

01:05:58.200 If my wife said, I don't like this. I don't like that. I'm not really doing it. You know,

01:06:01.800 I think I meant to always seducing this woman. So I don't do this. But besides this, 0.97

01:06:07.160 I wear everything I like and it happened. Like suddenly people find me cool. Trust me, Ryan,

01:06:13.800 I was not cool for the first close to 40 years of my life. I was so not cool in high school. I talk

01:06:20.120 about this many times. I had two girlfriends. They broke with me after three weeks telling me,

01:06:24.360 Oh, we're going to stay friends. You're a good guy. But you know, I was not a cool guy. That's why I,

01:06:29.560 I read so many books when I was young. That's why, you know, I learned about America. I learned

01:06:33.800 English really because I was not cool. And it's not deliberate in a way. I want to have a style.

01:06:39.720 I just do whatever I want. It happened like to click for some reason. I don't know.

01:06:44.840 I think maybe the reason it is, is because exactly what you said, it's, it's not fabricated. It's an

01:06:51.320 expression or an extension of who you are. I want to wear the things I want to wear. I want to have

01:06:55.320 my hair the way I want to have my hair. And I think that, um, that, that congruency, you know,

01:07:00.360 between you just wanting to be you and expressing it is probably what makes it cool. More than just

01:07:05.160 the fabric it happens to be. Right. Yeah, I think so. I mean, we, uh, we talk about authenticity and

01:07:10.520 that's a world like, you know, it can mean everything, but yes, I don't do it because I

01:07:14.360 want to look like someone, or I want to do it for a certain purpose. You know, I do it because I,

01:07:19.800 I like it. It comes from where I am. And I, I honestly, it's corny again, but I'm pleasing.

01:07:25.240 I always say like, if, if you could have a conversation with the kid you were at seven

01:07:29.320 years old and the kid you were at seven years old, like find you cool, you are cool.

01:07:34.760 So it's not a conversation with the girl who didn't find me cool at seven or at 14 years old.

01:07:40.440 It's a conversation with the kid at seven or 14 years old. If he, if we could travel and I could

01:07:46.120 talk to myself at seven years old and he'd say, wow, you were, and I'm pretty sure this kid will say,

01:07:50.920 wow, we became these. That's super cool. You know, I never do it to get the girls, you know,

01:07:57.240 to get the girl. I, I was past this, you know, I was surprised. Like I, I, I found my wife. She's,

01:08:03.640 she's absolutely gorgeous and more than physically on top of it, but I'm the guy who couldn't get a 0.99

01:08:10.280 girlfriend as a teenager. And I get the most, the oldest woman smarter, like, you know, in my forties.

01:08:17.080 So I do it for myself, not to get, to be cool for anybody else.

01:08:23.400 I, I've never heard even remotely what you just said, but it's super interesting

01:08:29.000 where you said, if your, your seven-year-old or your 14-year-old self could look at you,

01:08:35.080 would he be excited? Would he be impressed? I've never heard that framing, but that's a fascinating,

01:08:40.520 that's a fascinating idea.

01:08:41.880 Yeah. I think this is an idea. I talked to this about, to my son also, like, don't try to betray

01:08:47.800 yourself. Be honest with who you are. Be realistic and honest, but don't try to betray yourself. What

01:08:55.880 you are and what you are at seven, at 14, a teenager, don't try to forget. There's a good thing in you.

01:09:02.760 Let's try to not betray yourself. Grow up and be, grow up like the 14 years old, going to be very

01:09:10.520 proud of the 44 years old. And if you don't betray yourself, it doesn't matter for any kind of reason,

01:09:16.680 you know, I mean, any kind of goals. But yeah, I think, you know, in a weird way,

01:09:22.840 it mattered to me a long time. I used to say, like, when I was in high school, I was so, I was a nerd,

01:09:28.280 etc. And when it was come to think about what you're going to do after high school, what kind

01:09:32.280 of college, etc. I was always saying, it was kind of me being like, you know, the smart ass. But I was 0.99

01:09:37.960 saying, I know, do you want to go to business school? Do you want to go to law school? Do you

01:09:42.200 want to do this? I was like, I was like, I want to be in Diana Jones. What's the path? And it was a

01:09:48.120 little bit smart ass. But honestly, I was kind of naive. I was not mature in this way. Like, you know, 0.98

01:09:53.720 but it was real. I wanted kind of doing cool stuff and explore the world in a way.

01:10:00.920 And it took me a little bit. And it was that I didn't become an archaeologist or stuff like this.

01:10:05.080 But that's what I did, actually, whether I was a journalist in the tech, I became a photographer,

01:10:09.880 I decided I'm going to try to live in America. That's what I did. I've been traveling the world

01:10:14.520 for 20 years, from Russia to China to Asia, most countries in Europe, all over America. So in a way,

01:10:23.720 I was joking at 15, 16 years old, in a way, I became, I became in Diana Jones. I became the

01:10:29.560 Diana Jones. I was thinking I'd like to be, I became this dude.

01:10:35.160 I love it. I love it. This has been a fascinating discussion. I know the guys are going to be

01:10:38.680 interested in learning more about your story and what you're all about and following your work.

01:10:42.120 Tell the guys where to go, how to connect with you, and then we'll close out for today.

01:10:47.000 So I keep my Instagram, it's for your mind, like free your mind, but for your mind,

01:10:52.760 I don't have any Twitter anymore. I decided two years ago to get rid of Twitter.

01:10:56.680 Probably a good idea.

01:10:58.440 But I'm going to keep bigger online through my Instagram. And when I'm going to launch my podcast,

01:11:02.600 etc, everything going to be pushed through my Instagram. So instagram.com slash for your mind.

01:11:07.480 Awesome. We're going to sync it all up. Let me know when you go live with your podcast,

01:11:11.320 I'll help you promote it. I'll get it out. I'll spread the word on my end because what

01:11:15.000 you're doing is incredible. Who you are is incredible. And I just appreciate taking some

01:11:18.920 time today. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Ryan. Thank you.

01:11:23.640 All right, you guys, there you go. My conversation with Chris Elise, uh,

01:11:27.080 very fascinating, as I said, individual, a lot of interesting perspectives and, and perception about

01:11:33.240 life and faith and, and pursuing your passion and the American dream and everything else,

01:11:38.840 which is why I wanted to have him on the podcast and have that conversation. He did not disappoint.

01:11:43.880 As you guys do every week, just take a screenshot right now, real quick, take a screenshot,

01:11:48.760 blast it up on the socials, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, wherever you're doing the social

01:11:53.000 media thing and let guys know what you're listening to. Uh, these conversations obviously

01:11:57.720 are meant to serve you. And if they're going to serve you, they're also going to serve other men.

01:12:00.760 So please share this with a brother outside of that, leave a rating and review. And of course,

01:12:05.640 sign up to be notified when our brotherhood, the accountability stuff that I talked about earlier,

01:12:10.680 uh, opens up mid March. It's called the iron council head to order a man.com slash iron council.

01:12:16.920 All right, guys, go connect with Chris again, throw your mind, connect with me and let us know how

01:12:23.080 we're doing. Let us know if you have requests or conversations you want us to have and people you

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Order of Man - March 07, 2023

CHRIS ELISE ｜ Is The American Dream Alive or Dead？

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