Order of Man - CHRIS WILLIAMSON ｜ Ageless Wisdom for Modern Times

00:00:00.000 Guys, there is so much wisdom to be found all around us. And yet so many of us are so consumed

00:00:05.280 with the minutia and the day-to-day tasks of life that we never take any amount of time to just

00:00:10.640 pause and reflect and consider the ageless wisdom that could drastically alter the course of your

00:00:17.700 life. But it's the ability to stop and to ponder and critically think about the situations that

00:00:22.740 we find ourselves in that are going to get you on the path you have a desire to walk.

00:00:26.520 And today I'm joined by the host of the Modern Wisdom podcast, Chris Williamson,

00:00:30.900 to discuss things like the power of curiosity, how to graduate from your current friends who

00:00:36.540 aren't serving you, how mental masturbation is holding you back. This is something a lot of

00:00:41.520 guys do, why you need to find ways to break up the monotony of your life. And of course, so much more.

00:00:48.940 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly charge

00:00:53.620 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:59.440 easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:06.580 This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done,

00:01:11.300 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the

00:01:16.880 host and the founder of the Order of Man movement and podcast. Welcome here and welcome back. I've got a

00:01:22.560 great show lined up for you. Like I always do. And it's been incredible. The lineup of men that

00:01:27.360 we've had on the podcast over the past eight to 12 weeks. That's a testament of the work that we're

00:01:32.460 doing here. And the fact that so many incredible people believe in this mission to reclaim and

00:01:38.700 restore masculinity in this degenerate society. So I do that via this podcast by interviewing guys

00:01:45.800 like Chris Williamson today. Also guys like Jocko Willink and Andy Frisilla and Tim Kennedy and Dakota

00:01:53.160 Meyer and John Eldridge. Of course, if you've been around for any amount of time, you know,

00:01:57.380 the lineup of men we've had on is absolutely amazing. So we're going to get into the conversation

00:02:02.040 here shortly before I do just want to let you know a few ways that you can support the movement

00:02:06.220 and what we're doing here. Number one, leave us a rating and review goes a very, very long way

00:02:11.720 in bumping up and promoting the visibility on the podcast, on the podcast players. So iTunes ratings

00:02:18.020 and reviews currently are the best. So if you can go leave us, if you have not yet done this,

00:02:22.000 take two minutes, leave that iTunes rating and review. You can also review the book. If you've

00:02:28.320 purchased a copy of sovereignty, then go to Amazon and leave your rating for that. And the third way that

00:02:36.440 you can support us today is to check out our store. A lot of you guys don't know, we have an

00:02:41.000 order of man store where we've got hats and hoodies and shirts and beanies and wallets and battle

00:02:45.460 planners. I also have a few signed copies of my book sovereignty in stock right now. There's about

00:02:52.920 a hundred or so. So you can do that at store.orderofman.com. So again, ratings and reviews

00:02:59.100 on the podcast, ratings and reviews on the book, go to store.orderofman.com. Look good, support what

00:03:04.740 we're doing. That goes a long way. And I do appreciate it. All right, guys, let me introduce you to

00:03:08.980 Chris. He is the host of the modern wisdom podcast. Now I was introduced first to his work. Gosh,

00:03:16.320 this must've been several months ago when he had Jordan Peterson on his podcast. And I have been

00:03:21.320 listening ever since. He's got some very interesting ideas and commentary about everything from classical

00:03:26.920 wisdom to current culture and also the arena of politics. And although him and I don't always see

00:03:33.200 eye to eye, and we talk a little bit about that on this podcast on everything. He has made me think a lot

00:03:38.400 about my own perspective, what I have right, and where my current perspective and thinking may be

00:03:43.440 a bit flawed. So gents, I think you're going to enjoy this very thought provoking conversation.

00:03:49.380 Enjoy it. Chris, what's up, brother? Good to see you. Good to have you on the podcast, man.

00:03:54.740 Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, I've really enjoyed your podcast. And I feel like we're on similar

00:04:01.260 paths and similar personalities in that what I see of you is just really striving to learn.

00:04:08.060 Trying to figure out what other people know, how can I learn, how can I apply this? And that

00:04:14.300 curious spirit is something that I'm definitely connected and linked with. I appreciate that

00:04:18.940 about what you're doing. Yeah. For a long time, I didn't really embrace that part of myself. And

00:04:25.380 then when I did, I became a lot more satisfied. So yeah, it's nice to see that showing in the real

00:04:30.420 world. So when you said I wasn't embracing that side of myself, what would be the alternative to that?

00:04:36.740 Do you feel like you were gaming things or that you had it all figured out? What did that look

00:04:40.120 like for you? When I was younger, I'm a club promoter by trade, right? I've filled a thousand

00:04:45.880 nightclubs over my career. I've put about a million people into them. So I've stood on the front door

00:04:50.560 and watched a million people walk past me and go into events that I've run. That's not the environment

00:04:55.600 for talking about like our higher purpose or whether there's aliens out there or if we can genetically

00:05:01.140 engineer life so that it can survive space travel. Like that's, you know, it's all right,

00:05:05.020 darling. Hi mate. How are you? Shake your hand. Give me five pounds, get in the club. Like that's

00:05:08.120 the way it works. That's the environment that you're in. And I had reverse engineered the person

00:05:13.880 that I was to fit the environment that he existed in. What that meant was I was existing very

00:05:19.200 transactionally in my personal relationships, in my professional relationships, everything was

00:05:23.700 quite transient. And yeah, for a long time, man, that was, that was life. And maybe that's a lot

00:05:29.680 of young guys. In fact, I think that is. You see guys that they absorb values and levels

00:05:37.920 of status and the things that they want from the world that other people want when they're

00:05:42.520 in their early twenties and the model and the values that serve them when they're 21 do

00:05:47.100 not serve them when they're 31. And you really, really need to get a hold of that. And the saddest,

00:05:52.480 one of the saddest guy archetypes that we see now is the adult infant. You know, the dude

00:05:57.820 that's 40 years old and still partying, getting a bag in with the boys on a weekend. Like, and

00:06:02.380 that's the highlight of his week. There's something tragic about that because we realized that people

00:06:06.500 were built for more. And we realized that this is someone who inculcated values at 20 years

00:06:11.400 old and never let them go. I think you're bringing up a good point. And for me, I personally

00:06:17.240 have experienced that I'm 40 years old now. And, and I think there's a level of maturity

00:06:22.080 that just gradually happens over time. You know, I look at my young kids, for example,

00:06:27.040 and it's, it's very fascinating to watch my oldest in particular. He's, he's 13 years old. Now he's

00:06:34.240 trying to figure himself out, you know? And so he's got friends and he's got influences and he's

00:06:39.460 seeing stuff on TV or he's watching YouTube. He's watching me and his mom, he's watching other

00:06:43.640 people. And so I think you're right is that we just naturally become like the environment that

00:06:50.020 we're around. And if we're surrounded by, uh, adult adolescents, like you're talking about, well,

00:06:56.320 that's, you know, how you're going to behave. If you're surrounded by incredible people. And I know

00:07:01.520 you are because of the people you've had on your podcast, I'm surrounded by incredible people because

00:07:05.780 of the people I've had on the podcast. It's natural that we're going to start gravitating towards

00:07:10.420 acting and behaving and performing more like those people were around.

00:07:14.980 That being said, I was around amazing people through my twenties as well. They were just

00:07:19.160 amazing people for my twenties. I've partied with some of the most fun, interesting, wild people

00:07:25.620 probably on the planet. And I'm really, really happy for doing it. Whether it's world-class DJs or

00:07:31.560 rock stars or strippers or whatever, like that was good. That was fun. And that taught me an awful lot,

00:07:37.240 but it didn't serve me when I was toward my late twenties. And you can hold onto that really,

00:07:43.360 really tightly. You think, right, I've managed to find a sense of belonging. I know who I am,

00:07:47.860 at least in this context, people accept me for the person I am, even if that's not truly me anymore.

00:07:52.840 But at least I know that this persona that I'm playing, people like it. So you, this insecurity

00:07:59.720 can cause you to hold onto it because you think if I hold onto this, I'm going to continue to be

00:08:04.180 accepted. I'm going to continue to be allowed to move forward within this world. And if you want

00:08:09.360 to grow and progress, if you want your outward experience, your outward appearance, and the way

00:08:14.180 you present yourself to reflect your inner experience, you need to be able to let go of that. And that's

00:08:18.780 scary, right? It's stepping over the threshold. Well, it is scary. And I'm wondering how you dealt

00:08:24.720 with that because I hear from a lot of guys who know they want to experience something different.

00:08:29.300 They want to graduate. They want to mature. They want to find themselves in different circles.

00:08:34.160 And yet they have experiences and more often people that they feel latched to, and they have

00:08:41.520 a difficult time letting go of those individuals. Did you experience any of that as you strive to make

00:08:46.180 your growth and progression in your own life? No. For me, the only thing that was holding me back

00:08:52.780 was my own fear around whether people would like me in general. I didn't have any dependents. Single

00:08:59.680 guy, runs his own business, gone to pretty big lengths to make himself uncancellable. And I didn't

00:09:07.520 need anyone. So the only thing that was holding me back was the pure fear of no longer belonging

00:09:13.700 itself. The question around what does it mean? Who am I if I am no longer the club promoter that stands

00:09:19.780 on the front door because there's something inside of me that feels like I should be, how

00:09:23.960 would you say, nourishing my intellectual curiosity or whatever, right? That was the biggest obstacle

00:09:30.120 for me to overcome. So it was letting go of the fear and the terror around no longer being

00:09:34.600 the identity. And the thing is, you can play a role for so long that you genuinely don't

00:09:41.140 know who you are anymore. You just have persona upon persona upon persona, and you've buried

00:09:45.900 the real person so deep down that you actually have to go excavating to work out who it is.

00:09:50.500 This is why I think we see suicides in actors who outwardly have everything sorted, because

00:10:01.620 people don't love them for who they are. They love them for the role that they play.

00:10:05.340 We don't love Russell Crowe. We love Gladiator. We don't love Chris Hemsworth. We love Thor.

00:10:10.060 Like, if you spend your life playing a persona and hiding who you truly are, you can end up at a place

00:10:16.820 in life not only that you don't want to be, but that you didn't even mean to get to. And this is

00:10:21.620 how you can feel alone in a crowd and hollow in victory, because all of the love and the adoration

00:10:26.900 that you're getting from people isn't because of you. It's because of a role that you played.

00:10:32.660 So there's always this degree of separation from what you did and how you feel about the accolades

00:10:38.100 that you get from it. It's like, yeah, yeah, club promoter Chris did well today. Give him a pat on the

00:10:42.980 back. But it doesn't fill you existentially. It doesn't really, really make you feel whole.

00:10:48.420 And when that happens, when you start to feel hollow from your achievements, that's probably

00:10:52.580 a pretty good identifier that, look, there is a discordance here between what I truly feel compelled

00:10:58.260 to do and the actions that I'm taking, between the identity that I'm playing publicly and the

00:11:03.860 identity that I hold privately. Yeah, I agree with all of that. I also think there's another

00:11:08.820 thing that happens. And I see this with members of the military is that their identity becomes

00:11:14.020 so wrapped up in what they do. And there actually is deep, meaningful purpose to the work they're

00:11:20.980 doing. And for whatever reason, it gets stripped away. Maybe they decide to retire. Maybe they're

00:11:26.820 medically retired. Maybe they just hit an age bracket and it's time to move on. And because they've

00:11:32.180 wrapped up their identity so much in this one thing that I'm a soldier, a warrior. Now they're

00:11:38.900 no longer that. And they actually feel worthless because they haven't figured out, like you're

00:11:44.340 saying, who they really are outside of what they do. Terrifying, man. So here's a question to ask

00:11:50.420 yourself. Do people love me for who I am? Or do people love me for what I do? And that's a really

00:11:58.020 hard question to answer. Do people love me for who I am? And do people love me for what I do?

00:12:04.420 And the first person you need to ask that question to is yourself. Because a lot of the time we say,

00:12:09.220 I want the world to love me for who I am. Meanwhile, I'm going to love myself for what I do.

00:12:15.940 I'm not going to love me for the qualities and the values and the integrity that I know inherently

00:12:20.100 exist inside of me. I'm only going to pat myself on the back if I manage to get that

00:12:24.900 new promotion at work, that new sales target, that new growth with the business, whatever.

00:12:29.300 You're asking the world to do something that you haven't got around to doing yet.

00:12:34.020 Well, I'm glad you brought up that distinction because when you first posed that question,

00:12:37.940 do people love me for who I am or what I do? I was about to say before you filled in the blank

00:12:42.660 there, I don't even think that's the right question to ask. The right question is what you just said.

00:12:48.900 That's the first question is how do you feel about yourself? Because that's the person you

00:12:54.420 got to live with. And also if you're worried about do other people love me and who I am,

00:12:59.780 what I do, like all of this stuff, you're going to be very, very tempted to be something that you're

00:13:05.540 not because you think that's going to gain the accolades or admiration from other people.

00:13:11.220 I think if you ask the question, do people love me for who I am correctly with enough

00:13:16.180 introspection? I think that you should still arrive at a pretty worthwhile place.

00:13:23.300 I'm someone that is definitely too self-reliant. So this is like quite a hard one lesson for me that

00:13:28.900 if you want to go far, go together. If you want to go fast, go alone. And for a long time I went

00:13:33.780 really, really fast, but it was in solitude. And then I would end up hitting some sort of a wall,

00:13:38.740 whether that be like a miniature breakdown because I'd worked so hard, or whether that be just running

00:13:43.620 out of steam or energy or killing my motivation or killing my passion for a particular project,

00:13:48.580 because I didn't have anybody else there gassing me up, because I just presumed I could get there

00:13:52.420 on my own. And I think that actually stepping into the discomfort of working out, do people actually

00:14:00.740 like me? Are there people out there who love me for who I am, especially for a young guy? You know,

00:14:06.180 when you've got this family around you, this sort of big community that you've built, that's a

00:14:11.860 question hopefully that starts to be filled a little bit, that bucket starts to get filled a

00:14:16.980 little bit more easily. But for somebody who is a young dude between 25, 35, maybe hasn't got the

00:14:23.380 family set up yet, maybe still hasn't quite found their calling in life, stepping into the discomfort

00:14:29.540 of do people love me for who I am? Like, do I feel like I have inherent worth in this world,

00:14:34.660 aside from the accomplishments and the things that I achieve? That's a really important question to ask,

00:14:39.540 because if you can start to stay within the boundaries of, yes, there's people out there

00:14:44.340 who actually, who genuinely, genuinely understand and know me, and they care about me. I think that

00:14:49.460 you're moving toward a pretty good direction. Yeah, you know, but there's also, even for a guy like

00:14:55.060 myself who has a beautiful family, we've built a great community, like you're saying, I don't disagree

00:15:01.300 with any of that. There's a fear on my side of complacency, where it would be very easy to pad

00:15:08.180 myself from these types of questions and conversations. And what actually could potentially

00:15:13.700 happen, and I need to be very cognizant of this, is that it could all go away. You know, tomorrow,

00:15:20.420 Apple could say, no, we don't like your podcast. Facebook could say, no,

00:15:23.860 we don't want you talking about masculinity. Knock on wood and heaven forbid, one of my children

00:15:29.140 could die. Like, these are things that could happen. And if we fall into this complacency

00:15:37.620 and pad ourselves from this real introspection, like we're going to be in for a rude awakening when

00:15:44.340 we lose a job, somebody close to us dies, your job gets taken from underneath you, you come across

00:15:51.780 some medical or financial hardship. We just, we really cannot be complacent just because we feel

00:15:57.300 like maybe today we have those questions answered correctly. Do you think that complacency comes along

00:16:02.900 for the ride with comfort within yourself and a sense of belonging and love for the identity that you are?

00:16:08.980 I don't think complacency would be the right word because that to me has a negative connotation of confidence, I think is what you're saying.

00:16:19.460 To me, it would be more satisfaction or pride comes from knowing who I am.

00:16:26.740 One of your concerns was that people might get complacent and something could go wrong and this sort of inherent self-comfort, perhaps, would leave you vulnerable to that. Have I got that right?

00:16:38.260 Oh, completely. I mean, there is a vulnerability there unless you shore it up and make yourself aware of,

00:16:45.300 well, here's another way I would say it, is not fooling yourself into thinking that you're better off than you are or that you're better than you are

00:16:54.740 or that you're doing better than you really are or you're better than somebody else. Those are easy things to do when you have some level of success in your life.

00:17:04.340 The propelling nature of anxiety, like the amount of motivation that you get from fears, from insufficiency, from concerns, like, it's a fucking powerful motivator, man. Like, it'll push you forward incredibly far.

00:17:20.340 I hope that there is a more balanced way to do that long term. I'm not convinced that that is the optimal way to generate momentum for a man in life.

00:17:34.340 You're saying fear? Is that what you're saying?

00:17:36.700 Senses of insufficiency, constant anxiety, this ambient sense that something might go wrong because this is what you would need.

00:17:43.620 You know, this can be taken away from me at any moment. That is a statement. Fear around the fact that I could lose this at any moment is an emotional investment.

00:17:53.580 And trying to be aware of one without letting it exist inside of you and ruin your mood, that's quite a difficult balance to strike for most people.

00:18:04.420 And I think that long term, ideally, you want to get yourself to a place of confident competence, where you know that you've got this sorted.

00:18:16.100 So I have a buddy. I have a friend who's very well off and he makes a lot of money and he flies around the world driving fast cars and shooting guns and having sex with women.

00:18:25.160 And he, before he was rich, he would spend a lot of money. So he'd go out and buy a car and he would only just about have the amount of money to be able to afford it.

00:18:33.820 And then I used to mention, well, look, man, like, what the fuck? Like, you've nearly zeroed yourself out buying this one car.

00:18:41.140 Are you not worried that this may all fall apart and something may go wrong? And he said, future Andrew will sort it.

00:18:48.180 Like, he had so much faith in his future self. Now you could argue that he had perhaps leveraged himself sort of toward the extreme of that.

00:18:54.980 But that degree of self-confidence, that extrapolation, look, I know where I am. I have fucking faith in what I can do.

00:19:02.300 I understand my trajectory going forward. There's something to be taken from that.

00:19:06.260 He's coming at it from a place, an abundance mindset, not a scarcity mindset. He's not terrifyingly holding on to the things that he has because he's worried that they're not going to go away.

00:19:16.220 He has complete faith that the future version of him will turn up and do whatever needs to be done.

00:19:20.840 Now, again, I wouldn't advise zeroing yourself out to just get fast hyper car, but I think there's a lesson to be taken.

00:19:28.980 I agree. I just don't think they're mutually exclusive either, though. Right. I think that we can.

00:19:33.020 And that's what you're talking about here with the balance is that we can find ways.

00:19:36.860 You know, I was talking with my with my wife the other day, and we're having a conversation about this event that we've got coming up.

00:19:44.120 And and we were talking about how we can improve it. Well, we haven't even had the event yet.

00:19:48.280 We're talking about how we can improve it, how we can make it better, how we can impact more people.

00:19:53.060 And that's an abundance conversation. Right. Like hopeful, optimistic, abundant.

00:19:58.180 We have the skill set. We have the resources available to be able to do that.

00:20:02.400 So I think there's value in both. But that is the trick. Right.

00:20:05.200 Is not going to the extreme where it's kind of like that the anecdote of of the survivors.

00:20:11.660 And I can't remember what book this was in, but they talk about those who are overly optimistic end up dying in extreme survival situations

00:20:19.900 because they think that it's not going to be hard and they don't do anything to save themselves.

00:20:24.580 And those who are overly pessimistic, they die, too, because they actually self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:20:29.960 They make it worse worse for themselves. It's those who are realistic about the real dangers and the real threats,

00:20:35.140 but the real opportunities to be able to sell self save.

00:20:38.780 You know, so there is that balance in the middle of where do you fall between being optimistic,

00:20:45.940 but then also observing and being acknowledging of the threats that that could potentially arise.

00:20:52.240 We struggle to let go of that anxiety because it's a motivating force as well.

00:20:55.960 So like a lot of people, they don't want to feel too confident or have too much faith in their future self because that feels like complacency.

00:21:02.720 It feels like if I let go of these feelings of insufficiency, I'm not going to be driven anymore

00:21:06.700 because a lot of young guys have been driven by wanting to get that chick, get that house,

00:21:13.840 feel desired in the world, feel like they're sufficient.

00:21:16.400 And then when they do begin to get that, they're scared that if they no longer feel insufficient,

00:21:21.480 they're going to take their foot off the gas.

00:21:22.620 And that was the thing that drove all of their success in the first place.

00:21:25.340 Well, what does that say about the types of motivation that people have?

00:21:29.120 Do you feel like there are inferior and superior forms of motivation?

00:21:34.140 I mean, you might take your foot off the gas if you're not motivated towards that pursuit anymore,

00:21:39.040 but maybe you just naturally wouldn't if you were fired up about something,

00:21:42.160 if there was real meaning in what you're doing.

00:21:44.180 It depends whether you think that the ends justify the means.

00:21:47.360 If you think that the only thing you're concerned about is the outcome of what your motivation gets you,

00:21:52.300 then it doesn't really matter how you get there.

00:21:54.460 But most people, I think, now have realized that the journey really is the thing that's important.

00:21:59.920 You need to enjoy the process of whatever the thing is that you're doing,

00:22:02.220 or else what's the fucking point? Like, genuinely, why are you here?

00:22:05.700 Why are you here if you're going to kill yourself to get yourself to a place that when you're there,

00:22:10.260 you're still not going to be satisfied because you're terrified of losing motivation by finally being satisfied?

00:22:15.320 Fuck off. Like, get a better grip of the way that you're existing.

00:22:20.400 Don't get me wrong, man. Like, I'm speaking to myself here.

00:22:23.140 Like, I have the abundance mindset and the scarcity mindset are constantly at war in my mind.

00:22:29.020 Like, terrified of losing the things that you've got or failing publicly or this being taken away from you,

00:22:35.840 the thing that you finally found that you think is going to...

00:22:39.340 But you just need to have that sense of ease and grace and sort of embodied confidence,

00:22:44.780 confident competence in yourself.

00:22:46.600 Like, I do think that different forms of motivation have differing values because one can make you miserable

00:22:53.540 and one can make you happy en route.

00:22:56.160 Like, as you're climbing a mountain, if you're only happy when you get to the top,

00:23:01.060 that's what, 99% of the time, and then there's another mountain to climb.

00:23:04.880 Like, you have to be able to take some moments of joy throughout.

00:23:09.120 And that's not to say that, like, you need to be loving all the things, grinding away.

00:23:12.540 You doing this podcast, me doing my show, like, there are times when I cannot be fucked doing another ad read,

00:23:17.900 when I cannot be fucked doing another set of research.

00:23:20.780 It's the 10th time I've tried to tell people about some particular sponsor,

00:23:24.200 or this thing hasn't uploaded to YouTube, or this one's been taken down, or whatever.

00:23:28.620 Like, that sucks.

00:23:30.840 It's not always going to be good.

00:23:33.000 But you need to allow yourself to enjoy that walk up the side of the mountain

00:23:38.820 because it's just, this is trite to say, but it's too much of a waste of time otherwise.

00:23:45.260 Like, you cannot spend your life waiting to get to the top of a mountain

00:23:48.000 when 99% of the time you're fucking miserable, no matter how motivated you are.

00:23:51.700 Like, yes, you did something that was absolutely incredible, but you were miserable.

00:23:56.280 What point is there in that?

00:23:57.720 You were terrified or fearful, or you had feelings of insufficiency and scarcity.

00:24:01.320 You were mean to the people around you.

00:24:02.840 You never actually, here's another one, right?

00:24:04.420 So I spoke to Aubrey Marcus, a guy that's just sold Onnit to Unilever

00:24:07.900 for, like, some terrifying undisclosed amount, hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:24:13.000 Terrifying, terrifying number.

00:24:15.440 And he had this video at the launch of his book, New York Times bestseller,

00:24:19.780 and he's talking to the crowd and he's saying,

00:24:22.180 if I could go back, the only thing that I would change

00:24:25.420 would be my fears that I wasn't going to be stood right here,

00:24:30.600 the place that I was going anyway.

00:24:32.160 All of the time that I should have been eating a sandwich

00:24:35.320 or laughing with friends or just enjoying the work that I was doing,

00:24:39.180 I was so scared that I wasn't going to be stood right here, right now,

00:24:43.620 the place that I was going to end up in any case.

00:24:46.460 And I think that that completely highlights how our framing of a situation

00:24:49.920 can completely change our experience of it.

00:24:52.780 Aubrey was going to get there.

00:24:53.980 He was going to have the best-selling book.

00:24:56.060 What he did was he just lashed himself the whole way there all the time.

00:25:01.180 All he was doing was hurting and feeling scared and terrified

00:25:04.160 that he wasn't going to get there,

00:25:05.340 whereas he could have looked back and just enjoyed the journey.

00:25:07.540 Now, there's an argument to be made.

00:25:09.460 Without that fear of insufficiency,

00:25:11.020 would he have worked so hard as to have been able to get the thing?

00:25:13.640 Sure.

00:25:14.460 But if you work so hard that you hate it,

00:25:16.060 what's the fucking point of getting there in any case?

00:25:18.340 I agree.

00:25:19.620 I agree.

00:25:20.460 Do you think there's a problem with the way that generally we view goal setting?

00:25:25.200 Let me give you an example.

00:25:26.920 One of the questions I get all the time is,

00:25:29.360 Ryan, where do you see Order of Man going in five years?

00:25:33.160 And my answer is, I don't know.

00:25:35.420 I have no idea.

00:25:38.100 Because I'm more worried about this conversation that I'm having, Chris,

00:25:41.360 with you than what I'm going to be doing two days from now,

00:25:45.220 let alone what I'm going to be doing in five years.

00:25:47.760 And I think sometimes that stymies our growth and creative process

00:25:52.100 and ability to be flexible as life deals blows,

00:25:55.700 but also provides opportunities we may not have experienced otherwise.

00:25:59.720 Yeah, man.

00:26:00.500 You don't rise to the level of your goals.

00:26:02.020 You fall to the level of your systems.

00:26:03.420 Like, what are you doing every single day?

00:26:05.160 Are you doing something that you genuinely enjoy?

00:26:07.740 That being said, when James Clear brought out Atomic Habits,

00:26:11.900 everyone was adamant that process was going to completely win the day.

00:26:15.620 I'm not convinced that that's true.

00:26:17.180 I think that process without goals can lead you to a place

00:26:22.240 that you didn't mean to get to.

00:26:23.760 The two need to exist together.

00:26:25.480 Goals are great for motivation.

00:26:26.620 That's why on the 1st of January, everyone's got a big kick up the arse.

00:26:30.420 It's also good because it reminds you of the direction overall

00:26:34.100 that you're going in.

00:26:35.400 Like, if you're running a marathon,

00:26:36.640 you need to make sure that your running form is correct

00:26:38.880 and that your posture is right, that your hydration,

00:26:41.300 all of the different things.

00:26:42.580 But if you're running in the wrong fucking direction,

00:26:44.300 you do not get to win the marathon.

00:26:45.840 There is a difference between direction and speed, right?

00:26:49.340 Direction is more important than speed.

00:26:51.200 If you are going in the right direction,

00:26:53.580 even at one mile an hour, every single day,

00:26:55.980 you're making progress.

00:26:57.060 You can go as fast as you want,

00:26:58.500 but if you're going in the opposite direction,

00:26:59.800 you're making life harder for you, not easier.

00:27:01.940 So I think that goals are important,

00:27:04.180 but they're not everything.

00:27:05.780 Check in.

00:27:06.680 Set yourself a goal.

00:27:07.560 Every year, you can set it,

00:27:09.820 and then you can do 90-day sprints throughout the year.

00:27:12.380 Or if you're more goal-set minded,

00:27:14.600 you could do it every six months

00:27:15.640 and do 90-day sprints in between.

00:27:18.260 That's an easy way to do it.

00:27:19.380 It'd take you half a day.

00:27:21.220 What's that?

00:27:21.680 Four, like two full days a year,

00:27:23.840 split up into half days.

00:27:24.800 There you go.

00:27:25.960 There's your goals, checking in all the time.

00:27:28.060 What would it take for me to be able to get to the place

00:27:29.940 that I want to get to?

00:27:30.620 What would I have to do every day?

00:27:31.980 Don't use my phone before 9 a.m. or after 8 p.m.

00:27:34.220 because I know that that wastes time.

00:27:36.360 I want to make sure that I train five days a week

00:27:39.000 because that makes my mind good,

00:27:40.560 and that means that I'm in physical health

00:27:41.920 because that's not going to degrade.

00:27:43.320 I want to spend this much time with my family.

00:27:45.020 I want to do this.

00:27:45.620 Those are your non-negotiables.

00:27:46.840 Brilliant.

00:27:47.180 There's the process.

00:27:48.720 What will the process end up with?

00:27:50.200 It should get you toward the goal.

00:27:51.580 And after 90 days, you can look back and go,

00:27:53.720 actually, I thought that I could intermittent fast on my phone,

00:27:56.880 but it turns out that I actually need to do

00:27:58.160 loads of social media on an evening time

00:27:59.720 because that's when there's opportunities for growth

00:28:01.200 or Instagram lives or collaborations or whatever.

00:28:02.920 Or I need to spend more time with my family

00:28:05.560 because I thought that I could get away with this much

00:28:07.780 and I need to actually have more.

00:28:09.020 So sweet.

00:28:09.740 Check in.

00:28:10.820 That's the iteration of how we go like that.

00:28:13.500 Overall, I think that most people believe

00:28:15.340 that goals will bring them complete fulfillment,

00:28:17.500 and that's wrong.

00:28:18.800 But also those people don't focus enough on the process.

00:28:21.940 So you need to have both existing together.

00:28:25.220 Yeah, what I hear you saying and talking about

00:28:26.840 is even the distinction and difference

00:28:28.900 between discipline and motivation.

00:28:30.940 And I think motivation gets a bad rap.

00:28:33.400 Everybody's like, we hear these memes about

00:28:36.180 discipline is better than motivation

00:28:39.660 or motivation is failing

00:28:41.100 and discipline is the God that we should all strive for.

00:28:44.880 I'm like, well, no, actually,

00:28:45.740 I think there's a great place for motivation.

00:28:49.460 Like you're listening to a podcast.

00:28:51.600 Obviously, you want to be motivated

00:28:53.000 and inspired to some degree.

00:28:55.140 This isn't about discipline.

00:28:56.620 Nobody ever once said,

00:28:58.880 I'm going to be disciplined

00:29:00.060 by listening to Ryan's podcast

00:29:02.120 every Tuesday for the next 52 weeks

00:29:04.940 because that doesn't matter.

00:29:07.220 You're here to be motivated and inspired.

00:29:09.440 And I think there's a time and place for it.

00:29:11.640 And like I said,

00:29:12.720 in this modern world,

00:29:15.100 it seems to me that motivation,

00:29:16.660 inspiration gets a bad rap

00:29:17.880 and discipline is the only thing that matters.

00:29:19.780 But that seems miserable.

00:29:21.500 Like I don't want to be robotic.

00:29:23.420 I can be.

00:29:24.300 If I need to,

00:29:25.200 I can be robotic for a period of time

00:29:27.040 to accomplish something I'm motivated by.

00:29:29.900 I'm inspired by.

00:29:31.700 Yeah, I think you're right.

00:29:33.180 I don't know where it came from.

00:29:34.760 Maybe within the last five years,

00:29:36.480 motivation has kind of got a bad rap.

00:29:38.000 I don't know whether it's the internet

00:29:38.940 and sort of people posting motivational quotes

00:29:41.020 on Instagram

00:29:41.480 and bodybuilding motivation videos

00:29:43.720 on YouTube and stuff like that.

00:29:45.840 But absolutely, man,

00:29:47.440 if I listen to something that gets me fired up,

00:29:49.220 I'm going to use that fuel.

00:29:51.260 It's like you trying to build a really big fire

00:29:53.500 and chopping down wood every single day,

00:29:56.520 chopping it down,

00:29:57.320 carry it to the fire,

00:29:58.060 chop it down,

00:29:58.660 carry it to the fire.

00:29:59.340 And then one day out of nowhere,

00:30:00.960 a fucking tree falls on the fire.

00:30:02.860 And you're like,

00:30:03.200 oh, I better not use that tree.

00:30:04.900 I better not use that free fuel

00:30:06.220 that I've just got out of nowhere.

00:30:07.280 No, obviously not.

00:30:08.440 Like get a hold of it.

00:30:10.060 If somebody comes in and pisses you off

00:30:12.160 and the next day you wake up

00:30:13.540 and you're fired up,

00:30:14.280 you're not going to say,

00:30:15.400 I'm not going to use this motivation.

00:30:16.880 I better wait until I calm down.

00:30:17.920 It's like, no,

00:30:18.500 fucking take a hold of that.

00:30:20.220 And the same thing goes for

00:30:21.260 if it's the 1st of January

00:30:22.360 and you go,

00:30:22.960 do you know what it is?

00:30:23.500 I got like November and December last year.

00:30:26.400 They wrecked me.

00:30:27.240 Like they owned my life.

00:30:29.480 I'm going to get back at it.

00:30:30.760 And you spend a little bit of time

00:30:32.400 alone with thoughts

00:30:33.320 or you do whatever it is that you need to do

00:30:34.820 and you wake up on January 1st,

00:30:36.000 fired up and ready to go.

00:30:36.920 Like, yeah, get after it.

00:30:38.040 Yes, it will wane.

00:30:39.200 Of course it's going to wane.

00:30:40.340 Motivation doesn't last forever.

00:30:41.400 I think the concern that people had around motivation

00:30:44.440 was that they were going to forget about discipline.

00:30:47.180 They were going to believe

00:30:47.780 that they could YouTube motivation,

00:30:49.520 quote themselves to having constant discipline,

00:30:52.660 which wasn't going to happen.

00:30:54.220 But if you have the opportunity

00:30:55.980 to get that nitrous boost, man, take it.

00:30:59.240 All right, guys,

00:30:59.960 I got to hit the pause button very, very quickly.

00:31:01.720 I don't want to detract too much from the conversation,

00:31:03.500 but I do want to share something very important

00:31:05.600 as we roll into the fourth quarter of 2021.

00:31:08.580 Now, I know many of you are already starting to think ahead

00:31:12.120 to what 2022 will hold for you.

00:31:15.040 And while there is value in thinking ahead,

00:31:16.980 it's only valuable in so much

00:31:18.500 as it leads you to action today, right now.

00:31:21.860 And if you want to crush 2022,

00:31:24.020 it all starts right now.

00:31:26.100 And the best way to make that happen

00:31:27.720 is to band with us inside of our exclusive brotherhood,

00:31:30.940 the Iron Council.

00:31:31.920 Now, I know that's a bold statement.

00:31:32.940 The best way to do it is to join the Iron Council.

00:31:35.360 Yes, it is, because when you do,

00:31:38.260 you're going to unlock access to all the tools

00:31:40.420 and resources that we've been building

00:31:42.200 and developing and honing and refining

00:31:44.840 and crafting for over six years now.

00:31:46.880 And then we're also going to introduce you

00:31:49.240 to thousands of men.

00:31:52.840 But equally important is that you'll have

00:31:55.880 this band of brothers with this nearly 1,000 men

00:31:59.120 that are all working together on the same path.

00:32:01.880 So you're going to get the accountability.

00:32:03.860 You're going to get the camaraderie.

00:32:05.600 And also, you're just going to belong.

00:32:08.100 And isn't that what we all want?

00:32:09.660 Don't we want to belong?

00:32:11.180 But not just to any group.

00:32:12.480 You want to belong to a brotherhood

00:32:14.300 that is unlike any other.

00:32:16.280 And if you're ready to crush 2022,

00:32:18.340 start right now.

00:32:20.000 Join us inside the Iron Council

00:32:21.340 at orderofman.com slash iron council.

00:32:25.020 All right, guys, do that after the show.

00:32:27.840 Orderofman.com slash iron council.

00:32:29.880 For now, we'll get back to it with Chris.

00:32:32.780 Well, I mean, we live in this world

00:32:34.860 of binary options and false dichotomies.

00:32:38.980 That's what you're saying.

00:32:39.940 If I use motivation, then I won't be disciplined.

00:32:45.400 No, you can do both.

00:32:47.740 That's the beauty of it.

00:32:48.960 You can do both.

00:32:49.980 I mean, we've talked about these false dichotomies

00:32:53.080 throughout this conversation already,

00:32:54.860 three or four that we've already hit on.

00:32:56.600 But yeah, you said oversimplification.

00:32:58.460 That's right.

00:32:58.800 People just want to look for a very simple

00:33:01.140 black and white answer.

00:33:02.420 Tell me what it is.

00:33:03.540 Good.

00:33:03.820 I'll just do that 100 miles an hour.

00:33:05.440 It's like, that's probably not going to work for you.

00:33:08.960 When you talked about, what did you call it?

00:33:12.920 Confident competence.

00:33:13.780 Is that what you called it?

00:33:14.680 How does one begin to develop that

00:33:18.880 if they're moving into a new space or venture

00:33:23.280 trying to figure out their new identity

00:33:24.920 and they don't have any level of success

00:33:27.120 in that particular field?

00:33:29.380 Because I know there's a lot of guys

00:33:30.800 who want to do different things,

00:33:32.760 whether it's get into the gym

00:33:33.980 or start a new job or create a business.

00:33:36.140 And yet there's a lot of mental baggage going on

00:33:39.560 because they don't have success

00:33:41.080 and maybe even some imposter syndrome there.

00:33:44.420 Yeah, man.

00:33:45.140 So this is very common.

00:33:47.260 People that go and try and do something new

00:33:49.300 by its very nature,

00:33:51.440 you're going to feel like an imposter.

00:33:53.660 You're trailblazing new ground,

00:33:55.220 maybe ground that no one has ever done before.

00:33:57.900 And at least ground that you have never trodden on before.

00:34:00.880 Of course, you're going to feel like an imposter.

00:34:03.140 You would have to be unhinged not to.

00:34:05.180 You have no evidence that you can do the thing

00:34:07.520 that you're trying to get yourself to do.

00:34:10.040 Imposter syndrome isn't a bug, it's a feature.

00:34:13.240 Like this is you accurately predicting

00:34:15.020 the way that the world is around you.

00:34:16.500 That's a good thing.

00:34:17.700 You're able to see,

00:34:19.320 okay, I am in a new space.

00:34:22.440 I'm uncertain around my capacities in this space.

00:34:25.060 So let's prove to myself that I have competence

00:34:27.500 with some small steps.

00:34:29.240 What is the smallest step that you can take

00:34:31.180 that proves to yourself

00:34:32.020 that you are competent in the gym?

00:34:33.400 Okay, well, I need to go.

00:34:35.260 Okay, so go.

00:34:36.480 Go to the gym.

00:34:37.100 Go to the gym once.

00:34:38.220 Go to the gym twice.

00:34:39.180 Go to the gym three times.

00:34:40.280 You're not trying to become the biggest guy in the gym.

00:34:42.380 You're trying to become the sort of person

00:34:43.760 who goes to the gym.

00:34:45.740 That's what you're trying to build up.

00:34:47.040 The same thing goes, you go into a new business.

00:34:48.740 You're like, okay, I'm going to start this new business.

00:34:50.800 Do you have any idea about whether this business

00:34:52.520 is going to work or not?

00:34:53.300 Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

00:34:54.640 But as you build up confidence in yourself over time,

00:34:58.080 let's say you're starting a podcast

00:34:59.100 or starting a YouTube channel or something.

00:35:00.860 The first episode will suck,

00:35:02.940 as will the second and the third and the fourth.

00:35:04.780 And then eventually you get to a point

00:35:06.560 where there's slightly less shit.

00:35:08.340 And you go, wow, look at that.

00:35:09.940 A tiny little bit of competence that I've earned.

00:35:12.740 I've had to, it's been created through pressure,

00:35:15.320 you know, like a diamond.

00:35:16.700 And you think, cool.

00:35:18.880 That is a signal that I've been able

00:35:21.600 to build something up in this place.

00:35:23.200 Now, can you fake it until you make it?

00:35:25.460 Yeah, up to a point.

00:35:26.360 You can certainly have analogous competences

00:35:29.980 in other areas of your life.

00:35:31.380 Let's say that you've previously been in a job

00:35:32.980 where you've done customer service, right?

00:35:34.400 And you've had to speak to people on the phone.

00:35:35.820 It's not a million miles away from doing a podcast.

00:35:37.940 You can speak to people, you're competent, you do whatever.

00:35:40.560 Let's say that you've never been to the gym before,

00:35:42.640 but you've worked a nine to five

00:35:43.760 for the last five or 10 years.

00:35:45.800 Okay, so you've shown that you have industriousness,

00:35:48.840 that you can be conscientious,

00:35:50.360 that you can stick to a routine,

00:35:52.060 that you're able to take orders

00:35:53.820 and instructions from people.

00:35:55.040 Like that's not a million miles away from the gym.

00:35:57.400 These are correlating competences

00:35:59.300 that you can bring across and you can say,

00:36:01.100 look, I can have faith in myself

00:36:02.460 that I've done this hard thing,

00:36:04.100 therefore I can do this other hard thing.

00:36:05.800 So you build up trust in yourself layer by layer,

00:36:10.120 like fucking varnishing a table bit by bit by bit.

00:36:13.640 And this is one of the things,

00:36:14.500 it's World Mental Health Day this Sunday.

00:36:16.400 And one of the concerns that a lot of people have

00:36:19.480 is they don't have faith in their own word.

00:36:21.480 They don't have trust that they will do the thing

00:36:24.520 that they said they were going to do.

00:36:26.000 And the way that you fix that

00:36:28.260 is by taking the smallest possible promise

00:36:30.220 that you can make to yourself.

00:36:31.320 I am going to stop drinking on a nighttime.

00:36:33.680 I am going to stop cheating on my wife.

00:36:35.680 I am going to fucking go to the gym,

00:36:38.280 go for a morning walk, start to meditate,

00:36:40.060 whatever it is.

00:36:40.840 Pick the smallest, do one push up a day.

00:36:42.460 Pick the smallest possible thing.

00:36:44.860 Because that is going to prove to yourself

00:36:46.500 that you are the sort of person

00:36:47.520 that can keep promises to yourself.

00:36:49.420 And over time, the promises can get bigger

00:36:51.380 and bigger and bigger.

00:36:52.500 But yeah, I think imposter syndrome

00:36:55.220 is a feature, not a bug.

00:36:56.980 I think that you can use other competencies

00:36:59.880 that you've had that are analogous

00:37:01.340 to what you're doing now.

00:37:02.140 And you can draw those across

00:37:03.060 and you can take strength from that.

00:37:04.580 And if you want to build this up,

00:37:05.540 if you feel like, look,

00:37:06.940 I don't really feel that confident generally,

00:37:09.420 just across the board.

00:37:10.340 I don't have faith in my own word.

00:37:11.760 Okay, start small.

00:37:12.820 Start like stupidly, embarrassingly small

00:37:15.060 and do that and do that.

00:37:17.200 And then just layer it up

00:37:18.140 and layer it up over time.

00:37:19.120 Sometimes when people start small, though,

00:37:23.280 they simultaneously tell,

00:37:25.820 like they'll hear that and think,

00:37:26.960 okay, that's a good idea.

00:37:27.960 But then they'll simultaneously say,

00:37:29.680 this is stupid.

00:37:30.680 One push up?

00:37:32.640 Come on, I can do more than that.

00:37:34.560 And it's like,

00:37:35.380 then you're fighting against yourself

00:37:37.040 because on one hand, you're saying,

00:37:38.160 hey, I got to start somewhere.

00:37:39.220 And on the other hand, you're saying,

00:37:40.440 well, I'm not good enough

00:37:41.220 or it's not enough.

00:37:42.660 And so I'm not even going to do it at all.

00:37:45.060 Yeah, that's a difficult one.

00:37:46.060 So easy fixes around this

00:37:47.840 are to mark them off on a board.

00:37:50.060 So I have a whiteboard

00:37:50.720 in the corner of my room

00:37:52.240 that's just a big calendar

00:37:53.640 and there's big red Xs

00:37:54.940 for a bunch of different things.

00:37:56.220 And if I've done all of the different things,

00:37:57.800 I get to put an X on it.

00:37:59.300 Man, that's satisfying.

00:38:00.700 Like if you pick the things

00:38:01.640 that you need to do

00:38:02.260 and you get to look back

00:38:03.060 on a 30-day or a 31-day month

00:38:04.880 and it's just filled with big red Xs

00:38:06.500 and there's maybe a couple of days

00:38:07.520 that you've missed off

00:38:08.520 because of some catastrophe,

00:38:09.840 that's a win.

00:38:11.360 That's really satisfying.

00:38:12.900 You look back on it

00:38:13.520 and you go, yeah, yeah, I did it.

00:38:14.940 And yeah, okay, maybe it's one push-up.

00:38:16.820 But yesterday you did fucking none.

00:38:18.540 So who's the loser?

00:38:19.560 The guy that does one

00:38:20.380 or the guy that does none?

00:38:21.420 Because the guy that did one

00:38:22.320 is doing infinitely more

00:38:24.340 than the guy that did none.

00:38:26.480 Well, and I think, hey, look,

00:38:27.600 if that's the way you feel like,

00:38:28.940 oh, this is not enough,

00:38:29.980 okay, then do three push-ups.

00:38:32.720 You have the power to do that, you know?

00:38:35.140 But it is just interesting.

00:38:36.940 I think what a lot of people believe,

00:38:39.120 let's take podcasting, for example.

00:38:41.020 So I'll have guys that'll reach out

00:38:42.840 and you probably do too,

00:38:43.780 something similar to this.

00:38:45.500 And they'll have a nine to five.

00:38:47.600 They'll have a job

00:38:48.200 that they're not real satisfied with.

00:38:50.020 And, you know, they're paying the bills

00:38:51.440 and there's something to be said for that,

00:38:52.740 but they're not totally satisfied with it.

00:38:55.340 And they want to start a podcast

00:38:56.500 and they think to themselves,

00:38:57.660 but, you know,

00:38:58.360 I can only do it two hours a week.

00:39:01.500 So I guess I won't do it.

00:39:04.320 And that's so frustrating to me

00:39:07.920 is they think it's so small.

00:39:10.520 And here's the problem, I think.

00:39:12.180 And I want to ask you about this is,

00:39:13.780 does this come from some sort of weird

00:39:16.820 or false expectation

00:39:18.720 of what it takes to be successful

00:39:20.720 or what somebody quote unquote

00:39:21.900 should be doing in order to achieve,

00:39:24.100 you know, whatever it is they're after?

00:39:26.100 Yeah.

00:39:26.520 It's people believing the perfection myth.

00:39:29.380 So perfection is procrastination

00:39:31.900 masquerading as quality control.

00:39:34.700 I like that.

00:39:36.060 Say that again.

00:39:36.680 Perfectionism is procrastination

00:39:39.140 masquerading as quality control.

00:39:41.380 Yeah.

00:39:41.820 Interesting.

00:39:42.680 So you believe that

00:39:44.000 if I can only do one pushup

00:39:45.740 or if I only do one pushup,

00:39:47.120 then it's pointless doing any pushups

00:39:48.740 because the perfect number of pushups

00:39:51.140 would be like a hundred or something

00:39:52.700 with the podcast.

00:39:54.380 If I can't produce the Joe Rogan level,

00:39:58.220 Ryan Mickler quality podcast

00:40:00.400 in however much time I have per week,

00:40:02.860 then there's no point in doing it at all,

00:40:04.320 which is the complete opposite

00:40:05.260 because everybody starts in a shitty place.

00:40:08.640 The problem is that we take motivation

00:40:10.560 and this is perhaps a double side

00:40:11.780 of the motivation thing we were talking about.

00:40:14.020 People take motivation

00:40:15.140 from those who are at the top of their game

00:40:16.820 and it's very difficult to see

00:40:19.360 where they were when they sucked at the beginning

00:40:21.120 and the delta between the comparison

00:40:23.240 of where we are,

00:40:24.500 scrabbling around in the dark,

00:40:26.580 falling over our own shoelaces,

00:40:28.500 like cursing ourselves

00:40:29.460 for our own fucking ineptitude

00:40:31.040 and these turbo weapons at the top

00:40:34.020 that just effortless grace and flow

00:40:36.280 and poise and everything's sorted

00:40:37.980 and you think,

00:40:38.840 well, God, I'm useless.

00:40:40.140 I'm stupid.

00:40:40.740 I suck at this.

00:40:41.800 It's very discouraging.

00:40:43.480 Yeah.

00:40:44.000 Yeah, it is.

00:40:45.060 And it's hard, man.

00:40:47.500 This is why focusing on the process

00:40:49.360 and having a little bit of a laid out plan,

00:40:51.620 you need to know

00:40:52.340 that if you want to get to the stage

00:40:53.740 where you have the blue,

00:40:56.580 sorry, the silver play button from YouTube

00:40:58.160 because you've hit 100,000 subs,

00:40:59.820 it takes, on average,

00:41:00.960 it takes 500 videos

00:41:02.540 for someone to make their first 10,000 subs on YouTube.

00:41:09.180 Here's another stat for you around podcasting.

00:41:11.180 90% of podcasts don't make it past episode three

00:41:14.220 and of the 90% that do,

00:41:16.560 90% don't make it past episode 20.

00:41:19.480 So by making 21 podcasts,

00:41:21.440 you're in the top percentile of all podcasters ever

00:41:24.340 that have existed on this planet.

00:41:26.380 What does that tell you?

00:41:27.220 It tells you that most people try something and give it up.

00:41:30.540 The easiest competitive advantage you have is consistency.

00:41:33.920 If you just do the thing and do the thing

00:41:36.100 and do the thing and do the thing,

00:41:37.960 you will end up at a place in life

00:41:39.520 that you actually really feel proud of

00:41:41.340 because no one else is doing it.

00:41:43.400 Everyone else is getting seduced by competence,

00:41:47.000 how flashy they are,

00:41:47.940 how motivated they are,

00:41:48.960 how much natural talent they have at it.

00:41:50.320 No one's bothered about being consistent

00:41:52.660 because it's not sexy.

00:41:54.120 Right.

00:41:54.260 But it's the thing that sets apart

00:41:56.440 the people that are really,

00:41:57.420 really good from everybody else

00:41:58.500 because over time,

00:41:59.480 you will become talented and motivated

00:42:02.080 by being consistent.

00:42:03.680 You will find that you have a competence

00:42:05.640 at the thing that you are doing.

00:42:06.620 You will roll it forward so long

00:42:08.060 that you go,

00:42:08.780 fuck,

00:42:09.480 I can't stop this anymore.

00:42:10.720 Like imagine if I said to you,

00:42:11.860 you can't podcast for a month,

00:42:14.040 you would probably go insane.

00:42:16.000 Oh, 100%.

00:42:17.160 You would lose your shit.

00:42:18.100 You would lose your podcast every day.

00:42:20.320 Yep.

00:42:21.140 You would lose your shit.

00:42:22.200 So why is that?

00:42:23.300 Well,

00:42:23.400 it's because you've generated this momentum

00:42:24.900 and then after a while,

00:42:25.920 you're like,

00:42:26.240 well,

00:42:26.380 I can't stop this anymore.

00:42:28.100 But from the outside looking in,

00:42:29.540 if you were to say to Ryan 10 years ago,

00:42:32.420 hey man,

00:42:32.820 you've got to sit in front of this camera

00:42:34.160 and microphone for an hour,

00:42:36.340 seven days a week or six days a week.

00:42:38.400 He'd be like,

00:42:38.840 I can't do that.

00:42:39.680 That's fucking stupid.

00:42:40.840 I would have to be a world level podcaster.

00:42:43.340 And you go,

00:42:44.140 yeah,

00:42:44.400 how do you think you get there?

00:42:45.800 You do one and then you do two.

00:42:47.180 And then in 10 years time,

00:42:48.040 you're going to be able to be that guy

00:42:49.400 that you admire.

00:42:51.740 It's such an important lesson.

00:42:53.100 And you're right.

00:42:53.620 It's just not sexy.

00:42:54.720 And my fear with what you're saying

00:42:56.500 is that people will hear it

00:42:57.880 and they'll say,

00:42:59.220 yeah,

00:42:59.600 yep.

00:43:01.060 And they're nodding up and down.

00:43:02.320 This all makes sense.

00:43:03.000 I agree.

00:43:03.660 Okay.

00:43:03.840 I'm going to be consistent.

00:43:04.800 And then two days from now,

00:43:06.380 they're like,

00:43:06.660 oh,

00:43:06.840 it was hard.

00:43:08.060 Or I didn't get enough likes on Instagram.

00:43:10.120 And they'll throw in the towel.

00:43:12.200 It's like,

00:43:12.600 I don't know how to like drill this into somebody.

00:43:15.780 So they understand it and they do it,

00:43:17.920 but you're a hundred percent right.

00:43:19.740 You know,

00:43:19.980 you take guys like us

00:43:21.000 and I'm not going to speak for you,

00:43:22.120 but for me,

00:43:23.120 like I'm not any more talented or gifted

00:43:25.260 or have a great ability to interview

00:43:28.280 or talk to people.

00:43:29.580 In fact,

00:43:29.880 sometimes I don't want to talk to people.

00:43:31.460 Like this is my natural inclination,

00:43:34.180 but I've overcome it by doing it.

00:43:36.960 Like we have 800 plus podcasts at this point

00:43:40.440 over six and a half years.

00:43:42.500 And we have not missed a single podcast,

00:43:45.080 not one podcast in six and a half years.

00:43:47.960 That's what it takes.

00:43:50.240 That's monstrous,

00:43:51.280 man.

00:43:52.380 That's really,

00:43:53.000 really right there.

00:43:53.700 I mean,

00:43:53.960 you're doing the same thing.

00:43:55.180 That's true.

00:43:55.840 Yeah.

00:43:56.040 I am.

00:43:57.780 Let's try and get some real fucking like take home takeaways

00:44:01.940 then spit and saw this shit.

00:44:04.480 I think if you're not doing some sort of morning

00:44:06.860 journaling slash diary format,

00:44:10.720 I think that you're missing off on an opportunity

00:44:12.620 to check in,

00:44:13.380 just do a little micro check in on a morning

00:44:14.940 about the things that you want to do.

00:44:16.960 I don't think that you can ship the six minute diary,

00:44:19.600 which is what I use to America,

00:44:21.600 but I'm pretty sure there's a five minute journal

00:44:23.300 or something similar.

00:44:24.060 So if you're in Europe,

00:44:24.820 just search six minute diary.

00:44:26.360 And if you're in America,

00:44:27.060 use the five minute journal.

00:44:28.000 And just on a morning,

00:44:29.000 like what's the one thing today,

00:44:30.880 one pick one fucking thing that if you did that today,

00:44:33.880 you would feel like you'd made progress.

00:44:36.240 And that can be 10 minute walk.

00:44:38.360 That can be meaningful conversation with the wife.

00:44:40.400 That can be hard conversation at work.

00:44:42.720 That can be record a podcast episode,

00:44:45.060 whatever it is.

00:44:45.540 What's that one thing?

00:44:46.680 And just track that.

00:44:47.900 Another thing that you could do

00:44:48.820 would be to have a calendar

00:44:50.160 where you're crossing off again,

00:44:51.980 a bunch of little different steps

00:44:53.980 that you know will move you toward it.

00:44:55.720 If I do these three things today,

00:44:58.040 tiny,

00:44:58.520 tiny little things.

00:44:59.680 Don't use my phone before this time.

00:45:01.720 Make sure that I drink this much water.

00:45:03.880 Make sure that I stick to my diet.

00:45:05.000 Whatever it is.

00:45:06.520 If you make sure that you do those,

00:45:07.740 do those things and look back after a month,

00:45:09.360 like you will feel satisfied.

00:45:11.620 And to try and maintain that level of motivation

00:45:14.880 that you get in the beginning,

00:45:16.280 what I would say is maybe try and connect

00:45:19.660 a little bit deeper to the purpose

00:45:21.180 about why you're doing the thing

00:45:22.260 that you want to do.

00:45:24.180 Now, not everything you do

00:45:26.200 will come from like this innermost place.

00:45:28.020 Maybe you just want to try Brazilian jiu-jitsu

00:45:29.680 and see if you're shit at it.

00:45:31.100 Like, don't put pressure on yourself.

00:45:32.520 You're here for play.

00:45:33.600 Like, but if there's something where you think,

00:45:35.920 right, I'm really, really,

00:45:37.140 this is very important to me.

00:45:38.840 I really want to make this relationship

00:45:41.360 work with my wife.

00:45:42.520 I really want to build this business.

00:45:45.560 Connect to that.

00:45:46.200 Why?

00:45:47.120 Why do you want to do that?

00:45:48.180 What would it mean to you

00:45:49.160 if you could complete it?

00:45:50.520 Then here's another fucking awesome question.

00:45:53.060 We've got a quarter of the year left-ish.

00:45:57.460 Ask yourself this.

00:45:58.440 What would have to happen

00:45:59.420 in the next three months of this year

00:46:01.860 for you to look back on those three months

00:46:04.640 and consider them a success?

00:46:07.660 What would you have had to have done?

00:46:09.200 You've got three months.

00:46:10.700 What would you have had to have done

00:46:11.640 in the next three months

00:46:12.380 to have looked back on that period

00:46:13.540 and considered it a success?

00:46:15.920 One answer is enough.

00:46:17.700 Okay, there's your answer.

00:46:19.380 Why?

00:46:20.600 There's your why.

00:46:21.740 Now, how can you do it?

00:46:22.820 What are the daily steps

00:46:23.760 that will lead you toward that?

00:46:24.800 I really, really want

00:46:26.000 to launch a YouTube channel.

00:46:27.120 Okay, what's the first thing

00:46:28.460 that you don't have?

00:46:29.280 I don't have a place to record it.

00:46:31.000 Okay, you need to set that up.

00:46:32.480 I don't understand how YouTube works.

00:46:34.180 Okay, then you need to Google that

00:46:35.680 and work out how it works.

00:46:36.960 I don't, and you just step by step by step.

00:46:40.480 You just chew through it bit by bit.

00:46:42.720 So I would say morning journal,

00:46:45.200 get a calendar and cross it off.

00:46:47.540 You can go analog with this as well,

00:46:49.020 which is quite cool.

00:46:49.720 It gives you a bit of distance

00:46:50.540 away from technology,

00:46:51.420 which I think is quite nice.

00:46:53.560 Connect with your why.

00:46:54.620 Ask yourself what you could do

00:46:55.980 over the next three months

00:46:56.760 that would look back

00:46:57.380 and consider it a success.

00:46:59.380 And then just go for it.

00:47:00.580 Next action every single time.

00:47:03.080 So earlier we were talking about

00:47:04.920 our ability to oversimplify things,

00:47:07.940 but I think we have the potential

00:47:09.280 of overcomplicating things too, right?

00:47:11.900 So you're talking about a YouTube channel.

00:47:13.300 I really want to set up a YouTube channel.

00:47:15.140 You know what?

00:47:15.940 Here's my answer to that.

00:47:17.620 If you really wanted to set up

00:47:19.260 a YouTube channel,

00:47:21.160 you'd have it set up within an hour

00:47:23.220 of listening to this podcast.

00:47:25.900 Like it would be that quick.

00:47:28.200 But what people do is they're like,

00:47:31.360 well, I don't have a name

00:47:32.660 and I don't have this

00:47:33.600 and I don't have a website

00:47:34.900 and I don't have a camera.

00:47:35.980 And I don't,

00:47:36.540 you don't need any of that

00:47:37.500 to set up YouTube channel.

00:47:38.660 You just need to go sign up

00:47:40.060 and boom, you checked it off the list.

00:47:42.860 But we overcomplicate the,

00:47:44.720 and I know why we do it.

00:47:46.640 At least I think I know why we do it.

00:47:49.060 Most people do it

00:47:50.060 is because they want to give themselves an out.

00:47:54.580 Because if it's complicated and hard,

00:47:56.700 then they have an excuse

00:47:58.260 for not actually getting it done.

00:48:00.160 If it was easy,

00:48:02.140 their excuse has gone out the window.

00:48:04.180 That's a really good point.

00:48:06.460 Yeah.

00:48:06.760 How do we, how do we, go ahead.

00:48:08.540 Well, don't forget that again,

00:48:10.360 perfectionism is procrastination,

00:48:11.900 masquerading as quality control.

00:48:13.180 Yeah, right.

00:48:13.780 Sure.

00:48:14.620 So what you're saying to yourself is,

00:48:16.660 I'm not going to start this podcast

00:48:18.320 until I've got the brand name created

00:48:20.980 and it's going to be the perfect brand name

00:48:22.320 and it's going to be this, that, and the other.

00:48:23.280 Like there is a little bit of truth in that.

00:48:25.880 And the kernel of truth

00:48:26.640 is what gives you the ability

00:48:27.620 to actually hold onto it.

00:48:28.940 That if you were to start it

00:48:29.900 as like Ryan Mickler's shit show

00:48:32.520 of an audio, an audio world,

00:48:34.320 like.

00:48:34.680 That actually would probably do pretty good.

00:48:36.240 I'm going to go buy that domain name.

00:48:37.260 Should we do that?

00:48:37.980 Yeah.

00:48:39.160 You know what I mean?

00:48:40.020 Like there's a little kernel of truth to it.

00:48:42.100 A piece of advice,

00:48:44.540 if you are feeling like you have a large project,

00:48:47.780 which is overwhelming,

00:48:49.100 break it down into individual steps.

00:48:50.920 So David Allen's Getting Things Done

00:48:52.440 has a concept called Next Action.

00:48:54.600 And in Next Action,

00:48:55.560 all that you are looking for

00:48:56.600 is what is the next physical action

00:48:59.120 that you could take

00:49:00.520 that would progress you toward it?

00:49:02.280 So for instance,

00:49:03.520 you've got to set up the YouTube channel.

00:49:04.700 Well, you can't set up the YouTube channel

00:49:05.980 if your laptop's closed.

00:49:07.560 So you need to sit at the desk,

00:49:10.100 open the laptop,

00:49:11.600 turn on the laptop,

00:49:13.260 open the web browser.

00:49:14.480 Like this is child stuff.

00:49:16.580 But the reason that we get scared

00:49:18.260 about big projects

00:49:18.940 is that they're overwhelming

00:49:19.820 and we don't know

00:49:20.540 what the next thing is for us to do.

00:49:22.220 If I gave you enough time,

00:49:24.260 you could take individual steps

00:49:25.820 to walk yourself to the moon.

00:49:27.640 It's only 280,000 kilometers away

00:49:30.720 or 280,000 miles away, sorry.

00:49:33.260 But you could do it

00:49:34.200 step by step by step.

00:49:36.020 But if I told you to walk to the moon,

00:49:37.240 you'd tell me to fuck off.

00:49:37.860 Well, you still might tell me

00:49:38.460 to fuck off anyway,

00:49:39.040 but individual steps.

00:49:41.880 What's the next action that you can do?

00:49:43.240 That's how I would break it down.

00:49:45.140 And if you want,

00:49:46.020 if you're the sort of person

00:49:46.920 that's analytical

00:49:47.520 and can actually do this properly,

00:49:49.380 you can start right here

00:49:51.480 and go,

00:49:52.260 I want to start a YouTube channel.

00:49:53.660 What is every physical next action

00:49:55.520 that I need to go through?

00:49:56.820 Like embarrassing.

00:49:57.900 So here's another one.

00:49:58.720 I've had mental health on my mind

00:50:00.100 because like I said,

00:50:01.140 it's World Mental Health Day this Sunday

00:50:02.780 and it's something

00:50:03.240 that's quite close to my heart.

00:50:04.220 One of the pieces of advice

00:50:05.700 that I give to people

00:50:06.400 that are really down,

00:50:08.400 having a low mood,

00:50:09.780 perhaps they can't get out of bed,

00:50:11.100 perhaps they're sort of

00:50:11.940 really struggling at the moment.

00:50:13.380 Like when you're crushed

00:50:15.580 under the weight of existence itself,

00:50:17.640 when you're drowning in thoughts,

00:50:19.980 the tiniest little action

00:50:21.480 takes a superhuman amount of strength, right?

00:50:23.880 Like it's this Sisyphean task

00:50:25.700 that you need to be able to do it.

00:50:27.780 So, okay,

00:50:28.540 you need to get yourself out of bed

00:50:30.040 because you know if you stay in bed,

00:50:31.180 you're going to feel more guilty

00:50:31.900 and more ashamed.

00:50:32.920 So how do we get out of bed?

00:50:34.780 Okay, well,

00:50:35.500 first thing is

00:50:36.220 take a couple of deep breaths

00:50:37.260 because you want to be awake

00:50:38.120 when you stand up.

00:50:39.120 Then you need to pull the covers off you.

00:50:41.220 Then you need to put one leg down

00:50:42.680 on the floor.

00:50:43.220 Then the next leg down on the floor.

00:50:44.580 Then you can sit up.

00:50:45.340 Dude, you've sat up.

00:50:46.860 You were laid down two seconds ago.

00:50:48.080 Now you're sat up.

00:50:48.880 Well done.

00:50:50.180 Hands on knees.

00:50:51.080 Stand up.

00:50:51.960 Walk up.

00:50:52.600 Go to the door.

00:50:53.400 Get upstairs.

00:50:54.140 Get in the shower.

00:50:54.960 Pants are off

00:50:55.400 before you get in the shower.

00:50:56.240 Like step by step

00:50:57.440 by step by step by step.

00:50:59.160 And this is how

00:51:00.020 someone that's in their most vulnerable,

00:51:02.180 worst mooded situation

00:51:04.040 can start to chip away

00:51:07.220 at something

00:51:07.780 that only 10 minutes before

00:51:09.560 they didn't think

00:51:10.300 that they could get out of bed

00:51:11.080 and go and have a shower.

00:51:12.300 But they've done it.

00:51:13.300 And the same thing goes

00:51:14.040 for anything else,

00:51:14.940 whether that be starting a business

00:51:16.260 or finding a wife

00:51:17.440 or whatever it is.

00:51:18.860 All of these things

00:51:19.620 are just a sequence

00:51:20.520 of individual next actions.

00:51:22.040 Can I ask you

00:51:24.080 why the issues

00:51:26.740 of mental health

00:51:27.500 are so important to you?

00:51:29.080 I mean, you talked about it

00:51:29.840 being near and dear to you

00:51:30.800 and you've brought it up

00:51:31.600 a couple of times.

00:51:32.600 Why is this such

00:51:33.780 an important topic

00:51:34.920 and conversation for you?

00:51:36.620 Yeah, I think I struggled

00:51:39.000 throughout my 20s

00:51:41.300 with low mood

00:51:44.420 and feelings of disconnect

00:51:45.640 from the world

00:51:46.260 around me generally.

00:51:48.000 And I didn't know

00:51:48.520 where they came from

00:51:49.300 and I didn't really

00:51:49.800 have any guidance.

00:51:50.460 And I think that a big part

00:51:52.220 of starting my podcast

00:51:53.840 Modern Wisdom

00:51:54.440 was trying to find out

00:51:56.600 to try to understand the world.

00:51:58.240 It's like this doesn't come

00:51:59.680 with an instruction manual

00:52:00.640 and it's really,

00:52:01.640 really fucking confusing.

00:52:03.320 And maybe if I spend some time

00:52:05.740 around really smart people

00:52:06.760 and I do some introspection

00:52:07.880 and I learn some more things

00:52:09.300 and I have experiences,

00:52:11.120 maybe that'll make things

00:52:12.300 a little bit easier.

00:52:13.440 And it turned out

00:52:14.360 that I was doing loads of things

00:52:15.580 that upon reflection

00:52:16.800 fucking obviously

00:52:17.680 were going to give me low mood.

00:52:19.200 I was working until

00:52:19.820 three in the morning

00:52:20.480 three nights a week

00:52:21.240 at one of my club nights.

00:52:23.020 So sleep deprivation

00:52:25.460 is one of the first things

00:52:26.960 that will cause you

00:52:27.680 to have low mood.

00:52:28.280 You can be the happiest person

00:52:29.160 in the world

00:52:29.500 but if I give you

00:52:30.080 four or five hours of sleep

00:52:31.480 you're probably going to be

00:52:32.080 pretty miserable the next day.

00:52:33.160 Of course.

00:52:33.740 Now if you chronically

00:52:34.560 do that over 10 years,

00:52:35.960 how do you think

00:52:36.420 that's going to make you feel?

00:52:37.620 You're no longer

00:52:38.480 going to be able

00:52:39.220 to differentiate

00:52:39.880 between having

00:52:41.540 chronic low mood

00:52:42.460 because it's part

00:52:43.040 of your programming

00:52:43.760 and your lifestyle

00:52:45.080 causing that to occur

00:52:46.220 because they've become

00:52:47.040 the same thing.

00:52:48.380 They're now the exact

00:52:49.260 same thing.

00:52:50.180 When COVID came around

00:52:51.160 that was the first time

00:52:51.940 in my entire adult life

00:52:53.140 I'd ever had a stable

00:52:54.440 sleep and wake pattern.

00:52:55.560 Ever.

00:52:56.180 Since I was 18.

00:52:57.540 COVID came and shut

00:52:58.300 all of the nightclubs

00:52:59.040 and I was like

00:52:59.540 oh shit

00:53:00.060 well at least I get

00:53:00.680 to sleep now.

00:53:01.600 And I was like

00:53:01.840 oh wow fuck

00:53:02.560 this is what it feels like

00:53:03.460 to get eight hours

00:53:04.340 of sleep a night.

00:53:05.540 Interesting.

00:53:07.020 So it's something

00:53:08.260 that's really close

00:53:09.360 to my heart

00:53:09.820 because I think that

00:53:10.580 specifically for men

00:53:11.680 a lot of the talk

00:53:14.040 and a lot of the campaigns

00:53:15.560 that are being driven

00:53:16.960 at the moment

00:53:17.400 to try and encourage

00:53:18.580 men to talk about

00:53:19.540 mental health

00:53:20.160 doesn't really get

00:53:21.320 at the problem.

00:53:22.520 Saying so currently

00:53:23.520 there's a it's okay

00:53:24.440 to talk campaign

00:53:25.460 in the UK

00:53:25.940 which isn't really

00:53:27.980 the problem.

00:53:28.540 The problem isn't

00:53:29.380 virtue signaling

00:53:30.100 about the fact

00:53:30.620 that you felt down.

00:53:31.680 It's about genuinely

00:53:33.060 finding someone

00:53:34.480 that can listen to

00:53:35.920 and understand

00:53:36.660 what it feels like

00:53:37.700 to feel incredibly sad.

00:53:39.720 Like what does it feel

00:53:40.820 like to be drowning

00:53:41.720 in thoughts

00:53:42.340 and to be crushed

00:53:43.120 under the weight

00:53:43.720 of just the world?

00:53:45.900 Ostensibly nothing

00:53:46.660 is wrong

00:53:47.140 and yet

00:53:48.340 you feel like

00:53:49.460 you have

00:53:49.880 the threat

00:53:51.220 of the entire universe

00:53:52.800 waiting on the other

00:53:53.520 side of that door

00:53:54.200 and you feel guilty

00:53:55.580 and ashamed

00:53:56.080 because there's

00:53:56.600 other people out there

00:53:57.460 who've got it

00:53:57.900 so much worse than you

00:53:58.960 and why are you

00:54:00.000 feeling bad?

00:54:00.700 What right do you

00:54:01.540 have to have a problem

00:54:02.340 when there's nothing

00:54:03.000 like actually wrong

00:54:04.120 with your life?

00:54:06.240 That's the conversation

00:54:07.240 around mental health.

00:54:08.480 The conversation

00:54:09.020 around mental health

00:54:09.680 is to talk about

00:54:10.540 how to differentiate

00:54:11.600 yourself from your thoughts

00:54:12.880 about how to not

00:54:13.660 identify with them

00:54:14.400 about the importance

00:54:15.320 of making sure

00:54:16.560 that you have a friend

00:54:17.180 that you can call

00:54:17.780 like these are

00:54:19.040 the important ones

00:54:19.920 but it's kind of

00:54:21.540 become oversimplified

00:54:23.440 and pithy

00:54:25.600 and those are the campaigns

00:54:27.200 at the moment

00:54:27.640 and I'm really trying

00:54:28.980 to sort of push forward

00:54:30.120 a narrative of

00:54:31.820 look like

00:54:33.120 there are solutions

00:54:34.720 out there

00:54:35.180 it doesn't make you

00:54:36.740 any less of a person

00:54:37.600 like there's challenges

00:54:38.320 that you're going

00:54:38.780 to go through

00:54:39.300 you're going

00:54:39.960 to have low mood

00:54:40.560 you're going

00:54:40.860 to have times

00:54:41.420 where you're challenged

00:54:42.160 and where you feel upset

00:54:43.140 and where you feel down

00:54:44.100 and as a guy

00:54:45.340 there's no need

00:54:45.780 to have shame

00:54:46.280 or guilt around that

00:54:47.120 just here's some steps

00:54:49.380 that might help you

00:54:50.100 because they help me

00:54:50.980 I'm really glad

00:54:53.140 you're talking about it

00:54:54.020 because it's hard

00:54:56.160 for me to talk about

00:54:57.160 and my perception

00:54:58.620 and I'm not downplaying

00:55:00.140 any of that

00:55:00.720 what somebody

00:55:01.260 might be experiencing

00:55:02.040 I just have never

00:55:03.900 personally experienced that

00:55:05.860 like I've never felt

00:55:08.120 like I've been

00:55:08.780 in the position

00:55:09.520 to be like

00:55:10.420 feel like the world

00:55:11.300 is collapsed

00:55:12.020 like some of the

00:55:12.700 verbiage you use

00:55:13.600 I've never felt that

00:55:14.820 so it would be hard

00:55:15.940 for me to relate

00:55:16.620 with anybody

00:55:17.140 and actually talk

00:55:18.880 with somebody

00:55:19.400 who's experiencing that

00:55:20.820 which I know

00:55:21.280 is a real experience

00:55:22.240 I just don't have

00:55:23.800 much to share on it

00:55:24.680 because I don't know

00:55:25.540 what it's like

00:55:26.180 what can I possibly say

00:55:27.840 and in fact

00:55:29.040 anything I might say

00:55:30.440 might actually do

00:55:32.380 more harm than good

00:55:33.260 because I'm like

00:55:33.820 well what's your problem

00:55:34.400 you don't have any issues

00:55:35.120 and you're like

00:55:35.420 yeah that's

00:55:35.860 like I'm thinking that too

00:55:37.580 you know so

00:55:38.160 I'm really glad

00:55:39.560 you're talking about it

00:55:40.240 because I don't feel

00:55:41.060 qualified frankly

00:55:42.640 to be able to talk

00:55:43.280 about some of this stuff

00:55:44.140 so here's another insight

00:55:45.700 that I learned from that

00:55:46.600 that

00:55:47.280 a really strong way

00:55:50.060 to transcend suffering

00:55:51.480 and things that have

00:55:52.420 hurt you in your life

00:55:53.280 is to teach other people

00:55:55.400 about how to

00:55:56.780 endure them

00:55:57.620 and how to get past them

00:55:58.440 and how to beat them

00:55:59.020 let's say that you've had

00:56:00.360 something that was

00:56:00.900 really terrible

00:56:01.480 dad left when you were young

00:56:02.720 went bankrupt

00:56:03.700 had a horrible divorce

00:56:05.100 whatever

00:56:05.340 like a way that you can

00:56:07.560 transcend that suffering

00:56:08.640 is to use your experience

00:56:10.400 to aid other people

00:56:11.260 in not enduring it as well

00:56:12.520 like that's

00:56:14.000 so true

00:56:14.140 and that for me

00:56:15.740 makes me

00:56:16.100 it makes me feel

00:56:17.020 it vindicates the times

00:56:19.120 that I went through

00:56:19.740 where things were bad

00:56:21.040 you know

00:56:21.820 and it wasn't

00:56:22.360 I was never

00:56:22.960 on the scale of depression

00:56:25.440 dude I was a fucking four

00:56:26.940 like I was

00:56:27.680 unable to get out of bed

00:56:29.360 for a couple of days

00:56:30.040 like that's

00:56:30.640 that's as bad as it got for me

00:56:31.800 but that's still pretty bad

00:56:33.040 and it means that

00:56:33.600 like you say

00:56:34.260 I'm in a unique position

00:56:35.540 where I can

00:56:36.320 speak to certain people

00:56:37.700 that you may not be able to

00:56:38.720 the same way as you can speak

00:56:40.040 to fathers about fatherhood

00:56:41.200 that I can't

00:56:42.140 um so

00:56:43.600 yeah that's powerful

00:56:45.660 to be able to use

00:56:47.220 the things that have hurt you

00:56:48.620 in the past

00:56:49.200 to help other people

00:56:50.600 to not

00:56:51.200 feel that way as well

00:56:53.000 like that really does

00:56:54.700 it vindicates the suffering

00:56:58.200 that you've had previously

00:56:59.340 in a way that not

00:57:00.480 many other things can

00:57:01.920 I mean I can tell you

00:57:04.480 you brought up fatherhood

00:57:05.320 you know I remember

00:57:07.040 when I was younger

00:57:08.220 and my mom had told me

00:57:10.440 that she was going through

00:57:11.320 a divorce with my stepfather

00:57:12.540 I remember vividly

00:57:13.880 being very

00:57:14.940 very very upset

00:57:16.500 about that

00:57:17.100 and like cursing

00:57:18.060 God almost

00:57:18.880 like why

00:57:19.580 why me

00:57:20.840 why is this happening

00:57:21.660 to me

00:57:22.180 and as I started

00:57:24.740 to have children

00:57:25.420 the answer became

00:57:27.040 clear

00:57:27.440 I went through that

00:57:29.760 so that my kids

00:57:30.980 will never have to

00:57:31.940 experience that

00:57:32.680 barring my death

00:57:33.760 they will never have

00:57:35.460 to wonder if I care

00:57:36.480 about them

00:57:37.040 or if I love them

00:57:37.940 or if I'm around

00:57:38.840 or I'm going to be there

00:57:39.620 to support them

00:57:40.340 or I'm going to miss

00:57:41.320 or make their games

00:57:42.420 never

00:57:43.280 all because I went

00:57:45.400 through that

00:57:45.880 it

00:57:46.120 it

00:57:46.520 it made me who I was

00:57:49.240 and it allowed me

00:57:50.400 to be a better father

00:57:51.700 and

00:57:53.480 and that's a beautiful thing

00:57:55.180 like you said

00:57:55.780 it vindicates

00:57:56.700 a lot of the

00:57:57.880 what we would say

00:57:58.520 negative experiences

00:57:59.500 of our lives

00:58:00.240 it's beautiful man

00:58:02.060 I've got a mentor

00:58:05.000 and friend

00:58:06.100 his name is Sean Whalen

00:58:07.060 and he says

00:58:08.500 your mess is your message

00:58:09.720 and this is

00:58:11.620 along the lines

00:58:12.620 of what you're saying

00:58:13.400 here is that

00:58:14.180 your mess

00:58:15.060 meaning

00:58:15.420 the baggage

00:58:16.940 and the experiences

00:58:18.120 and the negativity

00:58:19.120 and the challenges

00:58:20.140 and I have a lot of guys

00:58:21.480 who will ask me

00:58:22.740 you know Ryan

00:58:23.300 I don't feel valuable

00:58:24.740 I don't feel like

00:58:25.580 I have value to add

00:58:26.860 and I think this is

00:58:28.060 what you're sharing

00:58:28.600 dude

00:58:29.140 you've been through

00:58:30.460 some crazy experiences

00:58:31.940 that I haven't

00:58:33.280 you think other people

00:58:34.320 might benefit

00:58:35.440 from the knowledge

00:58:36.660 of how you got

00:58:37.280 through that

00:58:37.780 so like

00:58:39.580 we all can add value

00:58:40.960 and I love

00:58:41.400 that you're talking about

00:58:42.320 it's valuable

00:58:44.460 when you share it

00:58:45.400 when you

00:58:45.700 when you learn

00:58:46.300 to help other people

00:58:47.620 go through

00:58:48.120 what you've experienced

00:58:49.160 in the past

00:58:49.900 your message

00:58:50.820 your message is

00:58:51.660 fucking cool

00:58:52.760 I like that

00:58:53.360 yeah it's good

00:58:54.040 I mean it's good

00:58:54.680 it makes a lot of sense

00:58:56.260 you know one of the other

00:58:57.540 things that you said too

00:58:58.440 and I'm always

00:58:59.180 very curious about this

00:59:00.460 as you were talking

00:59:01.020 about analytical people

00:59:02.180 I don't consider myself

00:59:04.880 one of the

00:59:05.360 I don't

00:59:05.680 I don't consider myself

00:59:06.760 analytical or

00:59:07.500 even really all that much

00:59:08.740 of a deep thinker

00:59:09.500 I just

00:59:10.060 I'm more of an action

00:59:11.720 driven kind of guy

00:59:12.720 like

00:59:13.060 point me in the direction

00:59:14.840 there

00:59:15.160 okay go

00:59:15.640 I don't think much more

00:59:17.060 about it

00:59:17.440 so my challenge is

00:59:18.860 like I need to stop

00:59:20.000 and think for a minute

00:59:22.060 and be more reflective

00:59:23.520 otherwise I might just

00:59:25.220 become reckless

00:59:25.940 which I've done

00:59:26.620 just a big reckless

00:59:27.840 you know wrecking ball

00:59:28.840 and but I think

00:59:30.520 there's other people

00:59:31.240 who are going to be

00:59:33.020 more analytical

00:59:33.780 and they need to learn

00:59:36.000 how to take more action

00:59:37.240 right

00:59:37.500 so we're all different

00:59:38.260 we got to find

00:59:38.880 where we are on the scale

00:59:39.840 to help propel us forward

00:59:41.460 correct

00:59:42.440 yeah

00:59:42.880 and that is

00:59:43.820 one of the beauties

00:59:44.660 of being able to

00:59:45.500 get into a partnership

00:59:46.420 with a

00:59:47.500 wife

00:59:49.300 or a husband

00:59:50.460 and also

00:59:52.020 building a business

00:59:53.540 because you can recruit

00:59:54.760 people that fill

00:59:55.700 the insufficiencies

00:59:56.420 that you have

00:59:56.920 in your life

00:59:57.460 okay

00:59:58.720 Ryan

00:59:59.660 doesn't look at the accounts

01:00:01.840 until the day

01:00:02.380 that the accountant

01:00:02.860 emails him

01:00:03.360 to get the yearly accounts done

01:00:04.480 we need to get someone in

01:00:05.800 that can step in

01:00:06.480 for half a day

01:00:06.980 you must know my account

01:00:07.980 that is 100% true

01:00:10.640 good judge of character man

01:00:11.740 yes

01:00:12.380 we need to get someone

01:00:13.260 that can come in twice a month

01:00:14.600 and can just sit him down

01:00:15.540 and spend an hour with him

01:00:16.680 and make sure that

01:00:17.540 everything's up to date

01:00:18.680 or else we're going to

01:00:19.400 have a nightmare

01:00:19.840 Ryan really hates

01:00:21.280 checking his phone

01:00:21.920 so we need to get somebody

01:00:23.420 in that can do that

01:00:24.140 or

01:00:24.760 if you're talking

01:00:25.640 in a family context

01:00:26.700 very common for dads

01:00:29.020 lack of patience

01:00:30.200 with the kids

01:00:31.080 that they used to

01:00:32.980 they just really struggle

01:00:34.180 with that impatience

01:00:35.000 and they feel guilty

01:00:35.680 and ashamed

01:00:36.140 because they go

01:00:36.740 this is my fucking son

01:00:37.980 or my daughter

01:00:38.440 like I should

01:00:38.960 I should love them

01:00:39.960 does this mean

01:00:40.400 I don't love them

01:00:41.020 no it doesn't

01:00:41.740 it just means

01:00:42.200 that you struggle

01:00:42.840 with patience

01:00:43.560 because you're used

01:00:44.520 to having competent

01:00:45.180 people around you

01:00:45.940 that do stuff

01:00:46.620 when you tell them to do it

01:00:47.380 especially if you're a boss

01:00:48.220 or if you work

01:00:49.260 in an organization

01:00:49.880 that's part of teams

01:00:50.820 you tell someone

01:00:51.320 to do something

01:00:51.820 you tell the child

01:00:52.440 to do it

01:00:52.840 and the child

01:00:53.180 does the opposite thing

01:00:54.220 to the thing

01:00:55.020 so yeah

01:00:55.580 quite rightly

01:00:56.060 you're going to get that

01:00:56.600 yeah so yeah

01:00:57.620 just because

01:00:58.240 they're little bastards

01:00:58.900 so

01:00:59.480 that's my youngest

01:01:00.780 he'll do it

01:01:01.400 you'll tell him something

01:01:02.260 and

01:01:03.100 and he will not do it

01:01:05.180 not because he forgets

01:01:06.200 but because he wants

01:01:07.200 to get at you

01:01:08.040 it's hilarious

01:01:08.980 and frustrating

01:01:10.020 have you tried to play

01:01:10.040 like reverse

01:01:10.680 reverse psychology with him

01:01:11.800 oh man

01:01:12.380 I've tried it all

01:01:13.380 and

01:01:14.280 I don't know

01:01:15.400 maybe he's just smarter

01:01:16.080 than me

01:01:16.480 I don't know

01:01:17.100 outwitted by an infant man

01:01:18.440 honestly

01:01:18.780 totally

01:01:19.380 it could be happening

01:01:20.500 so yeah with that

01:01:21.760 it's like okay

01:01:22.220 so I need

01:01:22.760 I need to think that

01:01:23.740 when I

01:01:24.880 if my wife has the capacity

01:01:26.740 to be patient

01:01:27.940 I need to

01:01:29.480 I need to bring it up

01:01:30.380 I need to say look

01:01:31.000 like I really want you

01:01:32.000 to help me with my patience

01:01:32.860 here with the kids

01:01:33.400 like I want to be more patient

01:01:34.820 but fuck it

01:01:35.400 it riles me up

01:01:36.400 like if I need a moment

01:01:37.680 can I get you to kind of step in

01:01:39.320 and maybe there's times

01:01:40.520 where they need disciplining

01:01:41.820 and the wife's a soft touch

01:01:42.800 so she needs to call on you

01:01:44.820 like we have different competencies

01:01:46.560 and you can fill those in

01:01:47.540 and this is where it comes back to

01:01:48.880 if you want to go fast

01:01:49.900 go alone

01:01:50.340 if you want to go far

01:01:51.060 go together

01:01:51.540 like you need other people

01:01:52.980 around you

01:01:53.440 because they're

01:01:54.640 over time

01:01:55.440 your blind spots compound

01:01:57.900 and you end up being

01:01:59.160 this weird caricature

01:02:00.600 of yourself

01:02:01.180 you end up being

01:02:02.340 this person

01:02:02.960 who has real strengths

01:02:04.480 and huge weaknesses

01:02:05.660 and if you don't get people

01:02:06.900 to come and fill those

01:02:07.680 you'll get wiped out by them

01:02:08.840 there's a concept called

01:02:10.300 never multiply by zero

01:02:11.600 or it's from mathematics

01:02:13.000 so you can have

01:02:13.660 a hundred thousand

01:02:14.860 times by

01:02:15.820 seventy million

01:02:16.740 times by

01:02:17.600 thirty five

01:02:18.400 times by two

01:02:19.280 times by zero

01:02:20.540 if you multiply anything

01:02:22.160 by zero

01:02:22.680 you net out a zero

01:02:23.680 a zero

01:02:24.260 it's the reason why

01:02:25.620 you can have the best

01:02:26.820 health and fitness regime

01:02:27.880 in the world

01:02:28.360 and eat healthy

01:02:29.180 and never smoke

01:02:29.900 and do all this

01:02:30.680 but if you drive

01:02:31.580 without your seatbelt

01:02:32.320 and you get in a car crash

01:02:33.240 you're very dead

01:02:34.380 like it doesn't matter

01:02:35.360 how healthy you are

01:02:36.140 you are now very dead

01:02:37.300 the same thing goes for

01:02:38.640 if you're a woman

01:02:39.340 who a young girl

01:02:40.420 who's getting her education

01:02:42.320 and getting a job

01:02:43.760 and she's got all of these

01:02:44.520 dreams and aspirations

01:02:45.420 want to travel the world

01:02:46.340 and become professional

01:02:47.660 and find a great husband

01:02:48.500 and you have unprotected sex

01:02:50.020 at the age of 19

01:02:50.700 and get pregnant

01:02:51.280 like that's a big zero

01:02:53.100 that's the next 18 years

01:02:54.440 of your life

01:02:54.940 now dedicated to

01:02:56.000 raising that child

01:02:58.060 like you need to make sure

01:03:00.380 that the things in your life

01:03:01.540 that could wipe you out

01:03:02.440 of the market

01:03:02.940 don't happen

01:03:04.000 like the only rule of the game

01:03:05.820 is to never be out of playing it

01:03:07.580 and avoiding unseen risks

01:03:13.920 by finding other people

01:03:16.420 that can help you

01:03:17.320 the wife

01:03:18.460 the business partner

01:03:19.560 the personal assistant

01:03:21.040 the other team member

01:03:22.800 whatever

01:03:23.320 the friend

01:03:24.160 the therapist

01:03:24.920 all of these people

01:03:27.220 fill holes

01:03:28.160 that could cause you

01:03:30.520 to be out of the game

01:03:31.240 at some point in the future

01:03:32.100 yeah I was just writing that down

01:03:33.860 that's a

01:03:34.180 I like that

01:03:35.780 that analogy

01:03:36.440 never multiply

01:03:37.420 anything by zero

01:03:38.620 I think we sometimes

01:03:39.960 have a tendency

01:03:40.580 to do that

01:03:41.300 because we're

01:03:43.580 egotistical

01:03:44.240 and we're arrogant

01:03:44.960 and we think that

01:03:46.420 it couldn't possibly

01:03:47.700 happen to me

01:03:48.380 yeah I was thinking about that

01:03:49.220 even with jujitsu

01:03:49.920 the other night

01:03:50.480 is

01:03:52.720 like I'll see guys

01:03:54.760 that won't tap

01:03:55.500 to a submission

01:03:56.160 or they'll do something

01:03:57.160 stupid and reckless

01:03:58.040 and get themselves hurt

01:03:59.160 and it's like

01:03:59.860 well that was dumb

01:04:01.120 like now you can't train

01:04:02.900 for three months

01:04:03.720 okay that's a problem

01:04:05.340 or alternatively

01:04:06.620 you could have just tapped

01:04:08.320 and the guy would have

01:04:09.420 let go of your arm

01:04:10.280 and yeah maybe

01:04:11.720 you would have thought

01:04:12.380 learned that you

01:04:13.140 aren't as good

01:04:13.580 as you thought you were

01:04:14.500 but you still get to train

01:04:16.340 but this is what we do

01:04:17.760 in life

01:04:18.240 you know like

01:04:18.760 we cling on to this stuff

01:04:20.040 because we don't want

01:04:21.240 to be perceived

01:04:21.900 as ignorant

01:04:23.140 or dumb

01:04:23.840 or incapable

01:04:24.540 and we zero ourselves out

01:04:26.980 it's like just tap

01:04:27.980 and like keep yourself

01:04:29.240 in the game

01:04:29.840 yeah that's

01:04:31.380 it's a cruel irony

01:04:33.240 of risk though

01:04:33.960 that in advance

01:04:35.160 true

01:04:35.520 in advance risk

01:04:36.960 looks like

01:04:37.720 bravery

01:04:38.620 and in retrospect

01:04:40.920 risk looks like

01:04:42.760 cowardice

01:04:44.120 or stupidity

01:04:44.880 like it just looks like

01:04:46.740 you

01:04:47.120 if you decide to tap

01:04:48.260 maybe

01:04:48.980 maybe I could have

01:04:50.080 got out of it

01:04:50.660 because you'll never know

01:04:51.640 and if you break your arm

01:04:53.100 you feel like an idiot

01:04:54.400 because you should have tapped

01:04:55.320 so

01:04:56.060 you can't ever run

01:04:57.160 the experiment again

01:04:57.980 but I think overall

01:04:59.420 understanding your own

01:05:01.580 personality

01:05:02.220 like if you're the sort of

01:05:03.120 person that sounds like

01:05:03.820 you are

01:05:04.920 who errs on the side

01:05:06.180 of risk and action

01:05:06.920 maybe you need to be aware

01:05:08.460 of that

01:05:08.740 maybe you need to actually

01:05:09.720 dial your risk tolerance

01:05:11.060 back by 10%

01:05:12.000 for me I'm very conservative

01:05:13.840 very very careful

01:05:16.020 and sort of delicate

01:05:18.160 with how I move forward

01:05:18.940 with things

01:05:19.280 so I actually need to

01:05:20.000 turn mine up

01:05:20.520 I need to take more risks

01:05:21.660 so I can probably go

01:05:23.060 to like a 12 out of 10

01:05:24.720 for me

01:05:25.140 and that might only be

01:05:26.480 an 8 out of 10 for you

01:05:27.580 and maybe that's the sweet spot

01:05:29.340 but this is why

01:05:30.420 you learn things over time

01:05:32.000 you do something

01:05:32.600 for instance

01:05:33.000 I went back to playing cricket

01:05:34.080 last year for the first time

01:05:35.360 in 10 years

01:05:35.860 I used to play for England

01:05:36.660 and Durham County

01:05:37.720 I went back to playing cricket

01:05:39.060 within the first 30 minutes

01:05:40.480 I ruptured my Achilles

01:05:41.540 batting

01:05:42.120 so that's a 12 month injury

01:05:45.000 that I've only just managed

01:05:46.180 to recover from

01:05:46.900 so

01:05:47.760 at the time

01:05:49.060 it was great

01:05:49.720 because I thought

01:05:50.240 brilliant

01:05:50.440 I can go back to playing cricket

01:05:51.420 in retrospect

01:05:52.060 it looks risky

01:05:52.880 and reckless

01:05:53.600 because

01:05:54.380 who the fuck were you

01:05:55.240 thinking that you could

01:05:55.940 pick up a sport

01:05:56.500 after not playing it

01:05:57.320 for 10 years

01:05:57.780 it's also

01:05:58.340 rupturing an Achilles

01:05:59.460 playing cricket

01:06:00.040 is like the most British way

01:06:01.660 to rupture an Achilles

01:06:03.120 like it's second only

01:06:04.320 to drink it

01:06:04.920 like rupturing an Achilles

01:06:05.740 drinking tea

01:06:06.520 or having fish and chips

01:06:07.820 or something

01:06:08.280 so

01:06:08.860 we don't know

01:06:10.740 we don't know

01:06:11.660 but now I have that lesson

01:06:12.760 it's only a mistake

01:06:13.940 if you make it twice

01:06:14.700 so

01:06:15.460 I now know

01:06:16.780 that if I want to

01:06:17.440 pick up a new sport

01:06:18.180 if I want to start playing

01:06:19.080 pickleball

01:06:20.060 or tennis

01:06:20.500 or squash

01:06:20.980 or basketball

01:06:21.600 or anything

01:06:22.140 I probably need to spend

01:06:24.460 a little bit of time

01:06:25.180 conditioning myself into it

01:06:26.400 that I need to stay

01:06:27.320 at like a 5 or a 6

01:06:28.520 out of 10

01:06:29.000 in terms of my athletic output

01:06:30.220 before I've conditioned

01:06:31.200 the tendons

01:06:32.220 and the ligaments

01:06:32.800 and everything

01:06:33.280 to get toward that

01:06:34.160 and it'll only take a month

01:06:35.280 or a couple of months

01:06:35.940 but don't dive right in

01:06:37.260 okay that's a fucking big lesson

01:06:38.540 and was it learned the hard way

01:06:39.680 yeah

01:06:39.880 and did it take 12 months

01:06:41.120 for me to recover

01:06:41.660 yeah

01:06:42.000 but there we go

01:06:43.640 it's a lesson

01:06:44.100 yes

01:06:45.760 but also

01:06:46.940 you could have

01:06:48.760 run that experiment

01:06:50.060 if you had the possibility

01:06:51.080 of doing that

01:06:51.760 a hundred times

01:06:52.740 or a thousand

01:06:53.480 or ten thousand times

01:06:54.920 and it would never

01:06:56.340 ever happen again

01:06:57.400 so I also think

01:06:59.180 we need to be careful

01:06:59.960 of placing too much weight

01:07:01.480 on some sort of situation

01:07:04.240 and attaching it

01:07:05.640 to like your action

01:07:07.060 no it could have just been

01:07:08.060 a lot of variables

01:07:08.780 and factors

01:07:09.460 that had nothing to do

01:07:11.100 with the action

01:07:11.580 that you took

01:07:12.140 yeah

01:07:12.600 could have slept poorly

01:07:13.360 the night before

01:07:13.940 could have not been

01:07:14.660 had the right nutrition

01:07:15.440 could have stepped on a rock

01:07:16.280 or something that

01:07:17.060 wasn't cleared off the field

01:07:18.280 or whatever right

01:07:19.160 so I think there's a risk

01:07:20.400 conversation that needs to happen

01:07:21.780 where people need to analyze that

01:07:23.940 and really ask themselves

01:07:25.320 okay well what's

01:07:26.140 you know if I'm gonna take this risk

01:07:28.060 what's the possible downside

01:07:29.880 you know if for example

01:07:31.580 somebody's gonna start a business

01:07:32.760 okay you got a nine to five

01:07:34.660 you're making six figures

01:07:35.640 you're doing good

01:07:36.340 you're moderately fulfilled

01:07:37.980 in your life

01:07:38.900 and you're gonna start a business

01:07:41.180 cool what's the downside

01:07:42.580 you gotta

01:07:43.540 you get a few more hours

01:07:45.080 a few less hours of sleep

01:07:46.560 you know maybe it

01:07:49.240 maybe it doesn't actually pan out

01:07:50.800 and you put 20, 40, 80, 100 hours

01:07:53.020 into it and you don't like it

01:07:54.120 like the downside is so minimal

01:07:56.040 like why would you not

01:07:56.940 take that risk

01:07:57.740 we felt the same way

01:07:59.760 when we moved out here to Maine

01:08:00.860 I moved here from Utah

01:08:02.600 two and a half years ago

01:08:03.620 people were like

01:08:04.100 oh I wish I could do that

01:08:06.280 but I could never

01:08:07.000 because I have a job

01:08:07.980 and friends and bills

01:08:09.000 yeah dude I have the same stuff

01:08:11.180 but we

01:08:12.440 my wife and I vividly

01:08:13.780 talked about this

01:08:14.520 I remember we said

01:08:15.280 you know we're gonna go out

01:08:16.600 and the worst case scenario

01:08:17.660 is we're gonna be cold

01:08:19.000 for a couple of years

01:08:19.860 and then we just move back

01:08:21.480 like that's a no-brainer

01:08:24.380 so those are two things

01:08:25.940 when you're thinking about risk

01:08:27.460 in a decision

01:08:28.120 there's two things

01:08:28.860 that are quite important

01:08:29.940 and the first one is

01:08:31.060 what are the potential costs

01:08:32.360 so cost-benefit analysis of it

01:08:33.980 we move out to Maine

01:08:35.440 it costs us however much

01:08:36.520 for the house

01:08:37.080 and however much in time

01:08:38.500 and potential lost earnings

01:08:39.680 because we've got to change jobs

01:08:40.680 or do whatever

01:08:41.160 but the benefit is that

01:08:43.080 maybe we're in this place

01:08:44.220 that we really love

01:08:45.040 in a community that we care about

01:08:46.740 next to a BJJ gym

01:08:47.960 which is gonna turn me

01:08:48.940 into a killer

01:08:49.340 and blah blah blah

01:08:49.980 the other thing

01:08:51.180 which is really important

01:08:52.620 and I only learned about this

01:08:53.940 this week

01:08:54.440 the concept

01:08:55.100 and it's whether or not

01:08:56.000 a decision is reversible

01:08:57.260 a lot of the time

01:08:58.820 we consider decisions

01:09:00.340 as being unidirectional

01:09:02.020 that look

01:09:02.980 once I've made this

01:09:04.080 it's game over

01:09:05.240 once I do this

01:09:06.840 there is

01:09:07.320 it's this for eternity

01:09:09.260 it's like

01:09:10.520 no it's probably not

01:09:11.780 it's probably not this

01:09:13.240 almost all decisions

01:09:14.640 are reversible

01:09:15.400 except for vasectomies

01:09:16.380 apparently

01:09:16.720 so

01:09:17.520 I think they are

01:09:19.680 as well though right

01:09:20.400 untie the tubes

01:09:22.220 I

01:09:23.100 as far as I understand

01:09:24.420 there's things that you can

01:09:25.340 it doesn't matter

01:09:26.440 but I think you can't

01:09:27.860 those are reversible

01:09:28.660 that's a rough situation

01:09:29.780 if you go through that twice

01:09:31.160 and then you're like

01:09:32.040 right now

01:09:32.440 I'm not advocating for that

01:09:34.100 but I think they are

01:09:34.960 reversible

01:09:35.280 yeah

01:09:38.020 is it a reversible decision

01:09:39.540 because if it is

01:09:41.020 you can

01:09:41.820 it's like me saying

01:09:42.660 hey man

01:09:44.420 I'm going to let you

01:09:45.820 spin this roulette wheel

01:09:47.180 if it lands on your number

01:09:49.360 you're going to get

01:09:50.740 35 to 1

01:09:52.460 if it doesn't land on your number

01:09:54.800 I'll give you 95%

01:09:56.100 of your money back

01:09:56.820 because you can just turn around

01:10:00.000 right

01:10:00.860 and go back to Utah

01:10:02.180 with the family

01:10:03.300 and yeah maybe it's been two years

01:10:04.640 and maybe you've got your tail

01:10:05.420 between your legs

01:10:06.060 a little bit

01:10:07.120 but you know

01:10:07.900 here's another one man

01:10:09.240 so a lot of people know

01:10:11.980 about opportunity cost

01:10:13.100 which is

01:10:14.120 by choosing to do one thing

01:10:15.440 you are choosing not to do another

01:10:16.740 so you can go to the theme park

01:10:18.680 or go to the gym

01:10:19.280 by going to the theme park

01:10:20.460 you can't go to the gym

01:10:21.760 therefore the opportunity cost

01:10:23.340 of going to the theme park

01:10:24.160 is not going to the gym

01:10:25.080 but there's another one

01:10:26.240 called anxiety cost

01:10:27.540 and this is

01:10:29.140 the discomfort

01:10:30.360 that we exist with

01:10:31.520 for having an open loop

01:10:33.440 left in our mind

01:10:34.360 so let's say

01:10:35.420 that you still

01:10:36.200 hadn't moved out to Maine

01:10:37.140 and yet

01:10:38.640 two hours out of every day

01:10:40.500 you ruminated about

01:10:41.460 leaving Utah

01:10:42.080 and going to Maine

01:10:42.780 every single day

01:10:44.720 over and over

01:10:45.700 and over and over again

01:10:46.920 yep

01:10:47.380 open loop

01:10:49.340 that's the anxiety cost

01:10:51.240 not only is there

01:10:52.380 a cost of making a decision

01:10:53.980 but there's a cost

01:10:54.660 of not making a decision

01:10:55.620 as well

01:10:56.060 because you're constantly

01:10:57.520 going to think

01:10:58.100 fuck

01:10:58.520 what if I made that decision

01:10:59.940 I really want to

01:11:01.040 I really want to know

01:11:01.820 and

01:11:02.780 there is a benefit

01:11:04.280 to simply closing that loop

01:11:05.840 and this is I think

01:11:07.120 what happens

01:11:08.220 when someone has

01:11:10.020 sat with a decision

01:11:11.820 for a really long time

01:11:12.840 let's say that

01:11:14.000 you're thinking about

01:11:15.120 starting a business

01:11:15.920 and you think about it

01:11:17.200 for so long

01:11:17.940 that you

01:11:18.940 you start it

01:11:20.000 simply so that

01:11:20.860 you can stop thinking

01:11:21.620 about it

01:11:22.120 it's like fuck

01:11:22.800 I'm so bored

01:11:23.720 of thinking about this

01:11:24.400 or leaving a relationship

01:11:25.320 it's like I

01:11:26.280 should I leave

01:11:27.340 should I go

01:11:27.740 should I leave

01:11:28.160 should I go

01:11:28.440 it's like I'm just

01:11:29.160 going to break up

01:11:29.720 just because

01:11:30.200 so that I know

01:11:31.120 so that I know

01:11:32.300 if it was the right

01:11:32.960 decision or not

01:11:33.500 because I can't think

01:11:34.220 about it this way anymore

01:11:35.480 because it's occupying

01:11:36.340 too much in my mind

01:11:37.000 and then you start

01:11:38.320 the business

01:11:38.660 and it doesn't work

01:11:39.600 and you go back

01:11:40.160 or you break up

01:11:40.820 and then you need

01:11:41.340 to go groveling back

01:11:42.160 and maybe she takes

01:11:43.040 you back

01:11:43.240 maybe she doesn't

01:11:44.320 but most of these

01:11:45.840 decisions are reversible

01:11:46.700 the stakes are

01:11:48.180 the stakes of not

01:11:49.920 making a decision

01:11:50.600 are probably higher

01:11:51.380 than you think

01:11:51.960 and the stakes

01:11:52.520 of making the decision

01:11:53.520 are probably lower

01:11:54.520 yeah agreed

01:11:56.180 this actually goes

01:11:57.400 back to something

01:11:58.020 you said a minute

01:11:58.680 ago you were

01:11:59.260 talking about

01:12:00.000 I can't remember

01:12:01.640 in the context

01:12:02.540 but journaling

01:12:03.380 and what you're

01:12:03.820 doing on a daily

01:12:04.300 basis

01:12:04.660 and you said

01:12:05.440 something very

01:12:05.900 quickly

01:12:06.240 you said

01:12:06.820 you play

01:12:08.620 right

01:12:09.100 you play

01:12:09.620 and you take

01:12:10.000 the pressure

01:12:10.400 off yourself

01:12:11.040 and I think

01:12:12.060 this is what

01:12:12.460 you're hitting

01:12:12.760 on right now

01:12:13.320 we tend to

01:12:14.760 make mountains

01:12:17.240 out of molehills

01:12:17.960 and put so much

01:12:19.480 pressure on ourselves

01:12:20.340 that we don't

01:12:20.860 give ourselves

01:12:21.400 opportunities to

01:12:22.380 explore

01:12:23.080 is how I would

01:12:23.820 say it

01:12:24.180 you know

01:12:24.780 if you're

01:12:25.040 thinking about

01:12:25.740 I want to

01:12:26.080 start a podcast

01:12:26.600 I want to

01:12:27.040 go to the gym

01:12:27.480 I want to

01:12:27.760 pick up jiu-jitsu

01:12:28.300 I want to

01:12:28.840 talk with that

01:12:29.580 person

01:12:29.940 I want to

01:12:30.280 ask this woman

01:12:30.780 on a date

01:12:31.220 like play

01:12:32.860 explore

01:12:33.380 try it

01:12:34.060 you know

01:12:34.440 the risk

01:12:34.840 is not there

01:12:35.500 if it is

01:12:36.640 and there is

01:12:37.240 a risk

01:12:37.520 but it's minimal

01:12:38.180 but looking

01:12:40.220 at that

01:12:40.580 as life

01:12:41.820 as a series

01:12:42.680 of experimentations

01:12:43.660 or playing

01:12:44.360 and take that

01:12:44.860 pressure off

01:12:45.420 of yourself

01:12:45.860 I think

01:12:47.300 as men

01:12:48.480 especially

01:12:49.220 as the sort

01:12:49.860 of guys

01:12:50.300 that might

01:12:50.680 be listening

01:12:51.040 to podcasts

01:12:51.680 that

01:12:52.040 are

01:12:53.100 introspective

01:12:54.340 and curious

01:12:54.960 and they think

01:12:55.700 about the world

01:12:56.260 and they think

01:12:56.660 about themselves

01:12:57.360 that's something

01:12:59.140 that a lot of

01:12:59.800 people lose touch

01:13:00.640 with

01:13:00.900 especially over

01:13:01.520 the last year

01:13:02.000 you know

01:13:02.560 the world's

01:13:02.940 been shut down

01:13:03.540 you haven't

01:13:03.840 been able to

01:13:04.200 have the

01:13:04.480 adventures

01:13:04.840 that you

01:13:05.160 perhaps used

01:13:05.700 to

01:13:05.980 go to the

01:13:06.540 gym

01:13:06.720 as much

01:13:07.040 as you

01:13:07.280 used to

01:13:07.620 see your

01:13:08.000 friends

01:13:08.240 as much

01:13:08.560 as you

01:13:08.800 used

01:13:09.020 to

01:13:09.240 you've

01:13:10.000 lost

01:13:10.220 that sense

01:13:10.680 of play

01:13:11.120 you're

01:13:11.800 inside

01:13:12.200 of your

01:13:12.460 own head

01:13:12.820 so much

01:13:13.300 that you

01:13:13.580 can no

01:13:14.020 longer

01:13:14.380 judge

01:13:14.880 accurately

01:13:15.320 judge

01:13:15.600 perspective

01:13:16.100 you don't

01:13:17.060 know

01:13:17.400 whether this

01:13:18.080 decision

01:13:18.400 is really

01:13:18.980 as big

01:13:22.040 proportion

01:13:22.360 because

01:13:22.660 there's

01:13:22.840 nothing

01:13:23.040 to stress

01:13:23.480 test it

01:13:23.960 everything

01:13:24.800 seems

01:13:25.260 massive

01:13:25.580 when you

01:13:25.980 haven't

01:13:26.180 got anything

01:13:26.540 else going

01:13:27.020 on

01:13:27.320 so

01:13:28.260 finding

01:13:29.100 joy

01:13:29.560 and a little

01:13:30.100 bit of play

01:13:30.640 it's

01:13:31.260 written on my

01:13:31.860 board there

01:13:32.680 I've only got

01:13:33.080 two things up

01:13:33.640 there and one

01:13:34.060 of them is

01:13:34.420 find play

01:13:35.220 like I need

01:13:36.560 to find play

01:13:37.260 in the things

01:13:37.700 that I do

01:13:38.100 joy has to be

01:13:39.100 found today

01:13:39.720 right now

01:13:40.580 if you can't

01:13:41.960 be happy with

01:13:42.420 a coffee

01:13:42.760 you won't be

01:13:43.340 happy with a

01:13:43.780 yacht

01:13:43.980 it doesn't

01:13:45.380 matter

01:13:45.680 like you have

01:13:46.880 to find joy

01:13:47.500 today because

01:13:48.040 it's not

01:13:48.460 it's waiting

01:13:49.600 for you

01:13:50.120 like it is in

01:13:51.040 everything that

01:13:51.740 you do

01:13:52.000 in the

01:13:52.420 interaction

01:13:53.220 that you

01:13:53.460 have with

01:13:53.680 the cashier

01:13:54.240 at the

01:13:54.500 supermarket

01:13:55.520 in the

01:13:57.220 way that

01:13:58.280 the wind

01:13:58.760 feels when

01:13:59.240 you get

01:13:59.420 outside of

01:13:59.820 your car

01:14:00.100 and have

01:14:00.300 to fill

01:14:00.600 it up

01:14:00.800 with petrol

01:14:01.260 like there

01:14:02.420 is joy

01:14:02.840 to be found

01:14:03.360 in those

01:14:03.640 things

01:14:03.980 and again

01:14:05.820 it comes

01:14:06.120 back to

01:14:06.400 the going

01:14:06.680 up the

01:14:06.900 mountain

01:14:07.060 thing

01:14:07.340 like if

01:14:08.140 you spend

01:14:08.580 almost all

01:14:09.180 of the

01:14:09.400 journey

01:14:09.640 thinking

01:14:09.960 about getting

01:14:10.380 to the

01:14:10.620 top

01:14:10.880 99.9%

01:14:12.040 of the time

01:14:12.500 you're going

01:14:12.700 to be

01:14:12.860 fucking

01:14:13.120 miserable

01:14:13.460 and you're

01:14:14.120 going to

01:14:14.180 be thinking

01:14:14.580 about this

01:14:15.000 1%

01:14:15.520 and it's

01:14:16.100 going to

01:14:16.260 take you

01:14:16.560 out of

01:14:16.800 the journey

01:14:17.120 that you

01:14:22.000 the wisdom

01:14:22.340 one of the

01:14:23.100 things that

01:14:23.420 you do

01:14:23.660 and I want

01:14:24.220 to give

01:14:24.420 you a second

01:14:25.300 to tell

01:14:26.280 the guys

01:14:26.840 where to

01:14:27.080 connect

01:14:27.280 with you

01:14:27.660 but I

01:14:28.340 actually

01:14:28.560 really enjoy

01:14:29.360 a lot

01:14:29.700 of what

01:14:29.920 you do

01:14:30.200 but on

01:14:30.740 Instagram

01:14:31.140 you do

01:14:31.580 these weekly

01:14:32.260 recaps

01:14:32.860 I can't

01:14:33.720 remember

01:14:33.900 exactly

01:14:34.240 what it

01:14:34.520 is

01:14:34.620 the things

01:14:34.940 I learned

01:14:35.260 last week

01:14:35.680 I love

01:14:38.280 that man

01:14:38.740 I was

01:14:39.440 thinking

01:14:39.660 that's a

01:14:40.280 good idea

01:14:40.740 I need

01:14:41.160 to do

01:14:41.360 that for

01:14:41.660 myself

01:14:42.020 what were

01:14:42.500 the biggest

01:14:42.980 takeaways

01:14:43.860 from this

01:14:44.560 podcast

01:14:44.980 or what

01:14:45.420 was the

01:14:45.680 biggest

01:14:45.920 takeaway

01:14:46.300 from

01:14:46.860 interaction

01:14:48.180 or experience

01:14:48.880 I had

01:14:49.200 so I wanted

01:14:49.580 to tell

01:14:49.900 you I

01:14:50.080 really

01:14:50.260 appreciate

01:14:50.700 those

01:14:51.000 they're

01:14:51.320 insightful

01:14:51.660 for me

01:14:52.120 so how

01:14:52.540 do the

01:14:52.700 guys

01:14:52.860 connect

01:14:53.200 if they

01:14:53.480 want to

01:14:53.740 learn more

01:14:54.140 about you

01:14:54.500 and what

01:14:54.720 you're

01:14:54.840 doing

01:14:55.520 cool

01:14:55.880 so it's

01:14:56.240 at

01:14:56.460 Chris

01:14:56.820 Will X

01:14:57.360 wherever you

01:14:57.880 follow me

01:14:58.400 Instagram

01:14:58.880 Twitter

01:14:59.420 Chris

01:15:00.000 Williamson

01:15:00.320 on YouTube

01:15:00.740 or

01:15:01.240 Modern

01:15:01.580 Wisdom

01:15:01.920 on Apple

01:15:02.460 Podcasts

01:15:03.040 or Spotify

01:15:03.460 there's three

01:15:04.060 episodes a

01:15:04.560 week

01:15:04.780 people like

01:15:05.480 Jordan

01:15:05.700 Peterson

01:15:06.120 Aubrey

01:15:06.700 Marcus

01:15:07.060 James

01:15:07.420 Clear

01:15:07.720 Robert

01:15:08.060 Green

01:15:08.460 Ryan

01:15:08.740 Holiday

01:15:09.060 and

01:15:10.280 yeah

01:15:10.940 the

01:15:11.140 newsletter

01:15:11.520 that

01:15:11.780 you're

01:15:11.920 talking

01:15:12.220 about

01:15:12.460 those

01:15:12.820 three

01:15:13.040 lessons

01:15:13.360 come

01:15:13.640 from

01:15:13.820 my

01:15:13.960 newsletter

01:15:14.340 a lot

01:15:15.240 of people

01:15:15.460 ask me

01:15:15.800 for book

01:15:16.420 recommendations

01:15:17.000 so if you

01:15:18.360 want a list

01:15:18.920 of a hundred

01:15:19.300 books the

01:15:19.800 most interesting

01:15:20.440 and impactful

01:15:20.900 ones that I've

01:15:21.480 ever read

01:15:21.880 it's

01:15:22.300 chriswillx.com

01:15:23.600 books

01:15:24.380 chriswillx.com

01:15:26.760 books

01:15:27.300 it's free

01:15:28.000 and it'll add

01:15:28.820 you to the

01:15:29.340 mailing list as

01:15:30.000 well as 20,000

01:15:30.740 people on that

01:15:31.340 getting weird

01:15:33.380 and wonderful

01:15:34.260 insights from

01:15:35.080 the last week

01:15:35.600 of my life

01:15:36.060 awesome man

01:15:37.300 I love it

01:15:37.920 well thanks for

01:15:38.400 joining us

01:15:38.860 today

01:15:39.220 again I

01:15:40.060 appreciate your

01:15:41.020 wisdom

01:15:41.280 I've been

01:15:41.620 looking forward

01:15:42.080 to this

01:15:42.320 conversation

01:15:42.820 it did not

01:15:43.520 disappoint

01:15:43.940 and we're

01:15:44.680 gonna have to

01:15:44.940 run it back

01:15:45.320 soon

01:15:45.580 thank you

01:15:46.420 brother

01:15:46.640 gentlemen

01:15:48.580 there you go

01:15:49.000 my conversation

01:15:49.700 with the one

01:15:50.120 and only

01:15:50.380 chris

01:15:50.720 williamson

01:15:51.420 as I said

01:15:52.260 very interesting

01:15:52.840 person

01:15:53.260 very thought

01:15:53.720 provoking

01:15:54.120 person

01:15:54.480 he's got

01:15:54.780 some great

01:15:55.140 ideas

01:15:55.660 again we

01:15:56.680 don't agree

01:15:57.020 on everything

01:15:57.600 we don't

01:15:58.000 always see

01:15:58.620 it the same

01:15:59.120 but that's

01:16:00.620 the power

01:16:00.940 of this

01:16:01.200 conversation

01:16:01.720 that's the

01:16:02.060 power of

01:16:02.440 these discussions

01:16:02.980 is that we

01:16:03.540 can work

01:16:04.580 towards

01:16:05.140 mutually

01:16:05.800 beneficial

01:16:06.320 conclusions

01:16:07.120 and draw

01:16:08.680 some

01:16:09.060 perspectives

01:16:10.380 and ideas

01:16:10.840 and insights

01:16:11.280 that are

01:16:11.540 gonna serve

01:16:11.880 us well

01:16:12.260 in our

01:16:12.580 lives

01:16:12.900 so make

01:16:13.660 sure you

01:16:13.920 connect

01:16:14.200 with chris

01:16:14.700 on the

01:16:15.440 modern

01:16:16.280 wisdom

01:16:16.580 podcast

01:16:17.000 connect

01:16:17.720 with him

01:16:18.200 on

01:16:18.520 instagram

01:16:18.980 i believe

01:16:20.180 i don't

01:16:21.280 want to get

01:16:21.540 this wrong

01:16:22.000 i believe

01:16:22.640 his instagram

01:16:23.640 handle is

01:16:25.020 chris will

01:16:25.840 x chris

01:16:26.660 will x

01:16:27.320 and then also

01:16:28.400 check out his

01:16:28.980 youtube channel

01:16:29.760 he's got a

01:16:30.040 very strong

01:16:31.300 presence over

01:16:31.900 there on

01:16:32.320 youtube

01:16:32.660 and his

01:16:33.480 interviews

01:16:34.580 are great

01:16:35.740 so check

01:16:36.840 it out

01:16:37.140 also i gave

01:16:38.680 you a few

01:16:38.980 ways to help

01:16:39.520 out four

01:16:40.040 things number

01:16:40.620 one ratings

01:16:41.500 and reviews

01:16:41.960 for the

01:16:42.200 podcast drop

01:16:42.980 it right now

01:16:43.540 before you

01:16:43.980 log off for

01:16:44.560 the day

01:16:44.960 maybe you're

01:16:45.700 at work

01:16:46.040 maybe you're

01:16:46.400 sitting in the

01:16:46.740 parking lot

01:16:47.200 maybe you

01:16:47.540 just finished

01:16:47.900 your run

01:16:48.340 just leave a

01:16:49.240 rating review

01:16:49.740 goes a long

01:16:50.720 way number

01:16:51.260 two rating

01:16:51.800 and review

01:16:52.220 for the book

01:16:52.800 number three

01:16:53.800 check out our

01:16:54.600 store store

01:16:55.280 order of man

01:16:56.100 dot com

01:16:56.620 and number

01:16:57.160 four if you're

01:16:58.160 ready to crush

01:16:58.620 2022 then join

01:17:00.620 us inside of

01:17:01.500 our brotherhood

01:17:02.040 the iron

01:17:02.780 council

01:17:03.400 all right you

01:17:04.400 guys i'll be

01:17:05.360 back tomorrow

01:17:06.320 uh we're not

01:17:07.600 going to have

01:17:07.920 kip tomorrow

01:17:08.560 we're having

01:17:09.000 sean villovas

01:17:09.940 on the podcast

01:17:11.100 for the ask me

01:17:11.820 anything so we've

01:17:12.960 got some great

01:17:13.480 commentary there

01:17:14.320 uh and we'll plan

01:17:15.800 on seeing you

01:17:16.620 tomorrow until

01:17:17.740 then guys go out

01:17:18.600 there take action

01:17:19.500 and become a man

01:17:20.580 you are meant to

01:17:21.640 be thank you for

01:17:22.540 listening to the

01:17:23.120 order of man

01:17:23.780 podcast you're

01:17:25.100 ready to take

01:17:25.580 charge of your

01:17:26.160 life and be more

01:17:27.200 of the man you

01:17:27.800 were meant to be

01:17:28.520 we invite you to

01:17:29.620 join the order

01:17:30.200 at order of man

01:17:31.320 dot com

Order of Man - October 26, 2021

CHRIS WILLIAMSON ｜ Ageless Wisdom for Modern Times

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