Order of Man - DALE PARTRIDGE ｜ Why Society Has Become Effeminate (and, What to Do About It…)

00:00:00.000 Guys, if you're being honest, you know that something has absolutely shifted in modern times.

00:00:05.460 Most of us as guys, we feel it, even if we can't necessarily name it,

00:00:08.800 but the language has become soft and weak and effeminate.

00:00:13.000 The standards and the military and at work and every other aspect of life have been diminished.

00:00:18.220 And this concept of emotional posturing has replaced what I would say is just principled conviction.

00:00:27.700 and the men willing to hold a hard line are being told to sit down to apologize to feel bad for the

00:00:34.120 way they feel but today's guest dale partridge does not apologize and he makes the case for why

00:00:40.320 you should not either we cover the philosophical and cultural forces that are driving this

00:00:47.200 effeminization of men in society why a man without a defined worldview is a man who will

00:00:54.840 inevitably get pushed around. Also the political and moral landscape men are being asked to

00:01:00.720 navigate right now and what it practically and tactically looks like to reclaim the kind of

00:01:07.960 masculinity that this culture, this society is working overtime to erase. Guys, we don't pull

00:01:16.040 any punches on this one. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears

00:01:21.520 and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every

00:01:27.260 time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.

00:01:34.200 This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and

00:01:39.680 done, you can call yourself a man. Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. Very excited for

00:01:47.540 this conversation i had dale on years and years ago and it's amazing how fast time goes but i love

00:01:54.440 this guy don't agree on everything that he shares but i really really appreciate the fact which is

00:02:01.340 an understatement that he's willing to stand by what he says and he does it unapologetically so

00:02:07.820 we're going to get into the conversation here briefly just want to mention other people that

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00:03:02.640 Montana knife company.com use the code order of man. All right. Let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:08.240 His name is Dale Partridge. He is the lead pastor of Kingsway Bible Church, which is in Prescott, Arizona.

00:03:14.300 He's also the president of relearn.org and the founder of Reformation Seminary.

00:03:20.540 His Real Christianity podcast has surpassed millions and millions of downloads.

00:03:26.200 But his influence and the way that he communicates runs well beyond the pulpit and into this cultural, philosophical,

00:03:36.160 even political conversations that most men are having behind closed doors in private,

00:03:41.940 but few, you guys, like us, actually have the courage to talk about in public.

00:03:47.720 He's probably one of the most direct and uncompromising voices on masculinity,

00:03:55.360 moral authority, and the crisis facing men and families in the West.

00:04:00.080 He's the author of several books, including The Manliness of Christ,

00:04:03.160 the ground of good theology and the best-selling children's book called Jesus and My Gender,

00:04:09.340 but Dale has built his platform on the premise that it's equal parts simple, and it's also 0.91

00:04:18.140 increasingly rare that truth doesn't require apologies, that men were built for conflict

00:04:25.100 and purpose, and that the recovery of real masculinity is not just a personal project,

00:04:32.140 but one of the most, I think Dale and I would both agree on this. One of the most urgent

00:04:37.640 cultural battles of our time. Dale, what's up, man? So great to see you. I just pulled up the

00:04:46.040 last time that you and I had talked. You said five years. It's actually been,

00:04:51.820 what has it been? Eight years? Eight years. It's amazing how fast time goes.

00:04:57.920 I know. And we probably knew each other for a year or two before that.

00:05:02.160 It's probably true.

00:05:03.100 So I feel like, yeah, so we're going on 10 years.

00:05:06.620 And yeah, I've been following along your stuff, you know, on Instagram and social media and vice versa.

00:05:12.480 So it's been cool to see that we're still doing the same things.

00:05:16.480 And, you know, I mean, relatively the same things.

00:05:19.580 Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that I really appreciate about what you bring to the table is your message has been very, very consistent.

00:05:26.340 I wonder, though, too, sometimes, do you think it is more polarizing just based on external circumstances, or have you taken a different approach to the way that you communicate your message?

00:05:43.040 Yeah, I think that there's certainly been a polarizing aspect of culture over the last 10 years.

00:05:47.600 I mean, we've seen, you know, since Trump has been in office, politics have become more moral.

00:05:53.380 Because they've been more moral, we've had to have more moral authorities, like pastors, step into the political sphere.

00:06:01.100 And so this has created issues around clarity on things like abortion or homosexuality or immigration or pornography or adultery or divorce or whatever it may be.

00:06:16.100 And so there's been a kind of a requirement for pastors to speak morality into the culture in a way that maybe they only spoke in a private sphere before, and now it's more public, which I think has caused more conflict.

00:06:31.740 That being said, I also think that the volume knob is turning up.

00:06:36.880 The intensity is getting greater.

00:06:39.460 There is a polarizing aspect that the right is getting more right, the left is getting more left.

00:06:44.240 you used to be able to stand in the middle kind of look like you know hey you know what I'm a

00:06:50.340 I'm a moderate and you can kind of lean to the left on certain issues and then you can lean to

00:06:55.200 the right on the certain issues and you can kind of play both fields I think now you just look like 0.99

00:07:00.060 an idiot and people need to figure out what side they're on now there's there's right and then 0.99

00:07:06.600 there's far right and there's left and there's far left but there really is no middle anymore 1.00

00:07:10.420 And so the middle and the reason is because everything has become clearly moral, clearly religious, clearly worldview.

00:07:21.460 We're not talking about, you know, economic budgets for foreign immigration policies, you know, the way we did in the 1980s.

00:07:30.360 We are talking about the legalization of particular religious practices, of sexual practices, of surgical practices that, you know, really overlap with extremely important values with people.

00:07:48.000 And so the coexist sticker, which it's always been dumb, but the idea that right now we are in a time where everybody is fighting for their worldview.

00:08:02.600 And that's why, you know, and you can stop me whenever, but my whole thing about multiculturalism is the reason it doesn't work is because essentially you have multiple different people groups, whether they're ethnic or religious or both.

00:08:16.620 but they are fighting for governmental influence and power so that the government would support

00:08:22.900 and potentially outlaw or disincentivize those views that are against them. So you have

00:08:30.740 essentially an interior civil war between worldviews when you have multiculturalism. So 0.87

00:08:38.040 you have all of these things at play over the last 10 years that I think are just magnifying.

00:08:44.740 And I'm not sure that it's ever going to get better 0.98

00:08:48.320 under a multicultural framework.

00:08:50.720 I think we're gonna need far more unity.

00:08:53.780 We've been told that diversity is our greatest strength. 0.98

00:08:56.420 We know that that is a foolish ideal.

00:08:59.120 It is not a strength that is a weakness.

00:09:01.340 We are continuously fragmenting.

00:09:03.720 We're creating parallel societies. 1.00

00:09:05.700 We're creating white flight. 0.98

00:09:07.360 We're creating a whole bunch of distrust in our government. 0.98

00:09:11.600 So there's a lot of things that are happening

00:09:13.660 and uh and i think just to bring it back if i can say if i can say one thing real quick with a

00:09:19.960 multicultural multiculturalism like there's certain things that don't mix like muslims and christians

00:09:26.580 don't mix you know i i think it i i saw something uh very interesting tucker carlson recently said

00:09:32.740 that uh islam uh acknowledges and and loves christ that that is absolutely not true even remotely i 0.87

00:09:42.860 mean it's a blatant lie at best it's ignorant at worst it's a blatant lie it is not true diversity 0.92

00:09:50.000 is only strength if we're all rowing in the same direction and islam isn't rowing in the same 0.66

00:09:58.020 direction as christianity somalis don't mix with americans and i know that that is polarizing

00:10:05.900 i understand that people don't like to hear that but when are we going to start dealing in reality

00:10:12.380 Yeah, this is the problem right now, Ryan,

00:10:14.960 is that we have the liberals

00:10:18.060 and even some people on the right telling young men

00:10:21.820 that they're not allowed to notice reality.

00:10:24.980 And that is what we've been doing for the last 60 years

00:10:27.900 is that we have not had a sense of national honesty.

00:10:31.800 We've had conversations around men and women.

00:10:35.300 Oh, we're the same.

00:10:37.260 You know, oh, different races.

00:10:39.360 We're not different races.

00:10:40.700 it's all one race, the human race. Oh, there's no difference between our cultures. Cultures are all

00:10:47.380 equally valuable. This idea that we can't notice patterns around ethnicities, around

00:10:57.700 different moral trends, say feminism, for example. Young men, if you tell young men to not notice,

00:11:06.880 they're going to notice all the more. And that's what's happening is that men. So we know that

00:11:12.440 maybe five years ago, we kind of, well, even before that, say 10 years ago, we really landed 0.94

00:11:17.480 into this post-Christian world. I'm thinking right now that we're landing in what I call 0.95

00:11:22.420 post-liberal world. And what I mean by that is that, you know, for a long time, used to be able

00:11:29.780 to use the R word and it would shut everybody up. Oh, you're a racist. Oh, I get called that all 0.99

00:11:35.860 the time. I don't care anymore. Yes. And that's the post-liberal mindset is that, no, you're not

00:11:41.760 going to use that. We have statistics. We have data points. We have information. We have

00:11:46.320 understanding. We have clinical experience. We are no longer going to let you use that word as a way

00:11:52.560 to distract the real conversation by looking at the facts. And so, yeah, there's a lot, a lot going

00:11:59.880 on right now. And I keep telling people, buckle up, figure out your worldview and anchor in.

00:12:07.900 I think one of the things that from where I sit, because you and I are, I would say,

00:12:14.060 overwhelmingly in alignment is it's very refreshing to me to finally have somebody say

00:12:19.500 all the things that everybody else is afraid to say. Now, I realize that probably creates

00:12:25.160 a whole slew of comments and threats and all sorts of things that the person who stays silent

00:12:33.340 can't imagine. But I do have to tell you that I really appreciate somebody who's willing to speak

00:12:39.800 honestly about the way that they see the world. And it seems like everybody else is trying to play

00:12:45.100 politically correct. And even on things that I may not agree necessarily with, I'm like,

00:12:49.940 at least he has the balls to say it. Like at least, at least I know that even if I disagree 0.59

00:12:54.680 with him. That's exactly his position. And then we can contend and debate about the position,

00:12:59.800 not necessarily the judgment assassination of it. It's like, let's debate the actual position,

00:13:08.540 not you're an idiot, which is what most people resort to. Correct. I mean, the idea of nuance, 1.00

00:13:13.800 the idea of PC, you know, being politically correct, the idea of kind of catering to the

00:13:19.680 sensitivities, intellectual sensitivities or emotional sensitivities of a particular group

00:13:24.380 all of that is effeminate behavior. It's never been part of masculinity. The reason that we've

00:13:30.720 continued to buy into this garbage is because we've had the feminization of all of our institutions, 0.98

00:13:36.060 including our media, including all of our workplaces, including all of our government 0.98

00:13:40.680 buildings and officials. And so we have been trained to essentially speak like women. And when

00:13:48.180 we speak like women, we start acting like women, which is, I got to be careful. Now, there still 1.00

00:13:52.740 needs to be honesty. There's something to be respect and honor and dignity. We can be kind

00:13:57.080 and respectful. Correct. Yeah. And those things can still be masculine, but the idea of not

00:14:02.520 noticing reality and pretending that distinctions don't exist, all of that is because of a fear of

00:14:10.320 conflict. Women hate conflict and they will do anything. They will essentially create an ulterior 1.00

00:14:17.120 reality in order to avoid conflict. Men love conflict and they're willing to go at it and

00:14:24.700 discuss it. And especially if they're honorable, respectable, you know, dignified men, they'll have

00:14:30.200 great, strong discussions. A woman will look at that and go, oh my gosh, they're going to kill 1.00

00:14:34.160 each other. But the reality is, no, we're actually working towards what we would believe is justice

00:14:39.040 and truth and is why men need to be leading all of our institutions and women not.

00:14:44.740 okay so when you when you talk about us as men or just collectively becoming a more feminized

00:14:54.740 culture it has a negative connotation to it and i know you well enough i can read between the lines

00:15:00.440 i know you have a beautiful family i know that you love and honor and respect your wife and women in

00:15:05.480 your life but when we see it on instagram and social media a feminine behavior has a negative 0.97

00:15:11.420 connotation. So help me wrap my head around that. Yeah. So just for people that are new to this, 1.00

00:15:18.160 feminine is good. Masculine is good. Effeminate is when men act like women. So essentially, 1.00

00:15:26.780 it's a form of transgenderism. It's a way to think outside of your natural God-designed order. 1.00

00:15:34.520 And so people get frustrated when we call out effeminate realities in men.

00:15:42.640 We know that T levels are down. 0.84

00:15:44.780 We know that men have catered to the emotions of women. 0.73

00:15:48.420 And the reason that men do this in most of society is because they want to have sex.

00:15:52.200 So they want to cater to these women to make them feel like, oh, they're heard.

00:15:58.060 Instead of actually leading, shepherding, guiding, which is actually more attractive 0.92

00:16:05.000 to women, they feel like if they just pander to the emotional needs of women and placate 0.99

00:16:12.300 around them, then maybe they'll have sex with them. 0.91

00:16:15.620 That's kind of the base level discussion at some of this, the base level reality on this 0.98

00:16:22.560 discussion. 1.00

00:16:23.840 But yes, we want women to be feminine. 0.93

00:16:26.960 we want men to be masculine. In fact, we notice there's many studies that support this, that

00:16:31.620 the more masculine a man is, the more feminine a woman will be. And so when you go to a church

00:16:37.840 or some sort of community in which the men are extremely masculine, what I mean by that is that

00:16:44.140 they are leaders, providers, they care, protect, love, rule. They are financially ordered. They

00:16:54.360 are good fathers. They are theologically astute. They're respected. They're men of honor. When

00:17:05.820 those kind of men exist, you start to see women wearing dresses and having long hair and being

00:17:12.520 soft and quiet and gentle, loving babies and having children everywhere. And that's what

00:17:18.100 happens. Now, when you see weak men who are checked out, playing video games, acting gay, 0.99

00:17:25.260 even though they're not gay, essentially you get women that start to dress and act more masculine. 0.97

00:17:31.840 And they start to lead and they start to get kind of that feministic, butch-like kind of style. 0.79

00:17:37.640 And, you know, the kids are checked out, they're on devices and it creates a role reversal. And so

00:17:44.580 men are responsible for acting like men. And we can't unfortunately look to many men in our current

00:17:50.920 day for a model for masculinity. We need to look back into previous generations. We are in an era

00:17:57.900 of recovery. And what an era of recovery means that we have to go back and essentially, if I

00:18:06.060 could put it another way, it's not just an era of recovery, it's an era of retrieval. So we need to

00:18:10.680 go back and retrieve masculinity from previous generations. Recently, I made a post, Ryan, that

00:18:16.620 was like, someone got frustrated at me for being intense or something. And I said, okay, so the

00:18:25.040 trannies are reading the kids' books at the library. We have mass immigration happening all 1.00

00:18:31.260 around us. Islam is coming in. Hinduism is coming in. We have atheism abound, pornography on every 0.99

00:18:37.180 corner and on every phone. You know, we have feminism that's running rampant and running 1.00

00:18:43.200 our institutions. Like at what point am I allowed to be mad? Previous generations of men, we went 1.00

00:18:50.200 to war with Britain over a 3% increase tax on tea. You know, you had a handful of Muslims that 1.00

00:18:58.380 entered into a particular Christian nation and it created wars. I mean, we are so rapidly 1.00

00:19:06.640 beyond the places of our forefathers, they look down on us and they're like,

00:19:13.940 you guys have waited way too long. We have been so tolerant. And this is why I keep telling people

00:19:21.080 we need more intolerant Christians. I'm not saying that we need to be less loving or less

00:19:26.260 righteous. I'm saying that we need to be far less tolerant of evil. And we need more men

00:19:33.800 to stand up and be willing to do that. Yeah. I'm just taking furnish notes here. You know,

00:19:39.220 it's interesting when you talk about this era of recovery, I've been telling guys for over a

00:19:44.920 decade now, our mission is to reclaim and restore masculinity, not to build it, not to redefine it.

00:19:53.580 That's what people say. Let's redefine. No, no, no. We need to reclaim and restore it. And I think

00:19:59.760 part of the problem is that we've bought into this idea. And maybe this is what you would say

00:20:03.460 is that effeminate behavior or at least feminized behavior is we do all of this in the name of

00:20:09.440 civility. Like let's be civil. And I have plenty of friends, some, some who, you know, I, I agree

00:20:16.100 with everything and some who I don't, but I had this conversation just the other day with a woman

00:20:20.800 and we were talking and, uh, we were debating on who built society, men or women. Well, men,

00:20:27.940 clearly obviously like men built society like there's there's no ifs ands or or buts about it

00:20:33.540 and she said well yeah because at the end of the day like you could just dominate

00:20:38.760 correct correct yeah correct yeah that is reality at this point at the end of the day

00:20:45.820 violence is what potentially will win and i hate to say that it might come to that but the reality 0.50

00:20:54.280 is is those who are strongest will win well it's exactly why every woman drops her feminist 0.98

00:21:02.000 mentality when a war arrives because suffering forces us to see reality you go oh oh do you want 1.00

00:21:11.780 to do you want to put the you know machine gun around your back and carry it up that hill and

00:21:17.240 start shooting people like are you ready to do that of course not and they quickly realize that 0.85

00:21:23.200 they're feminine and they want to be inside, you know, taking care of babies and making sandwiches. 0.88

00:21:27.840 And so it's, it's, and not to say that there isn't some, you know, random chick that wants 1.00

00:21:33.400 to do that stuff. I think it's perverted, but it's real. And, and so men are made to rule and

00:21:41.520 to protect. And it's not just some sort of social construct that we have created. No, our bodies,

00:21:48.000 our nature has told us who we are to be. Men are bigger, men are stronger, generally speaking.

00:21:55.000 Men have greater aggression, testosterone. We know that it's not just a physical thing. We know that

00:22:04.500 there was the study done between women and men chess players. And the top women chess players

00:22:13.080 cannot beat the top men chess players.

00:22:16.480 And it's because we are more logical. 1.00

00:22:18.600 We have an ability to be more strategic than women. 0.99

00:22:22.360 So it's not just a physical, it's an emotional, 0.77

00:22:24.880 it's a hormonal, it's a relational,

00:22:27.300 it's an intellectual difference

00:22:29.720 and distinction between men and women.

00:22:31.720 And again, it's all a part of our egalitarian framework

00:22:34.980 that we just want to smash everything into the same thing.

00:22:38.760 We're all the same.

00:22:40.100 And we want to eliminate distinctions

00:22:41.480 because distinctions mean conflict and superiority and inferiority. And we can't deal with the idea

00:22:48.140 of oppression and oppressor, all that crap. It's all Marxist garbage. And we've been so afraid to 1.00

00:22:54.480 embrace history in the last 60 years. It's just been this post-war consensus of pure emotional

00:23:03.180 feministic structure. And so we are, we're coming back. The young men are pissed.

00:23:10.720 The young men are mad. I'm 41. I pastor a lot of young men. And yeah, the young men,

00:23:18.640 they can't find wives that are feminine. They can't find jobs that pay decent. They can't buy

00:23:25.320 homes because the economy is what it is. They feel like they're losing their country because

00:23:29.960 of immigration, they're angry. And when men get angry, things change. And so I do believe that

00:23:38.960 we're on the cusp of some sort of adjustment, maybe in the next 10 years. It is interesting

00:23:46.060 when you talk about this spiritual component of it, because I don't know if you knew this,

00:23:50.200 but for most of my adult life, I have been LDS Mormon. And about, gosh, has it been six years?

00:24:01.240 I left the LDS church. And the first church I went to was a Baptist church. And there was a

00:24:06.740 pastor by the name of Ryan. And this guy's incredible, man. Part of the reason I left

00:24:12.300 the LDS church is I got so tired of this weak male leadership. I could not, I could not follow

00:24:20.340 it anymore. I just, I couldn't. Everything inside of me said, that guy is weak. You are not to be

00:24:25.780 led by him. He needs to follow other people. He is not to shepherd these people. Like I felt like

00:24:33.300 that to my core. And then I went to this Baptist church and pastor Ryan, man, he spoke like fire.

00:24:39.920 He said things that were uncomfortable. He called out his congregation, not individually, probably in private he did that, but he called out his congregation. He expected obedience to the word. He spoke with conviction. I'm like, finally, finally, I find somebody who's got the moral courage to buck what society tells us to do. It's very attractive to men.

00:25:07.140 It is. We're seeing a revival of young men in the church. They're coming back to the church

00:25:13.560 at greater rates than the young women. I do believe the young women will eventually follow, 1.00

00:25:18.300 but a lot of this kind of mega churchianity does cater to the emotional side. It creates like,

00:25:28.860 just some of the songs, this kind of the sway your hips to Jesus kind of stuff. It's all

00:25:34.900 relational language rather than conquering language. And so, yeah, there are men that I

00:25:41.880 think are moving to a few directions in the church. I think that we're seeing groups of

00:25:49.000 kind of the megachurch world moving toward more serious and historic positions of the church.

00:25:55.300 They want more serious doctrine. They want more historic stability. But if they can't find a

00:26:02.420 pastor who's willing to administer the word in a faithful and historic manner, that's kind of a

00:26:09.560 bottleneck for a lot of guys. Our church is pretty rare. There's a handful of churches around the

00:26:17.460 United States that I think are similar to us. We are by no means special, and I stick to the word

00:26:26.860 every Sunday. So people always can't grasp the reality of me being so vocal around politics

00:26:33.120 or other cultural issues as a pastor. But I remind people that on Sunday, I am sticking

00:26:41.060 verse by verse to the scriptures, getting to the gospel. Yes, if I go past a particular element

00:26:47.500 that intersects with a cultural issue, I'm going to hit it. But if I'm talking about

00:26:55.260 Genesis 8-9 right now of Noah's flood, and I'm sticking to the text. But it is. It's coming

00:27:03.120 with authority. It's coming with expectation. It's coming with masculinity. We have to remember

00:27:08.040 that Christianity is a masculine religion. I mean, you know of my book, Ryan, but my book, 0.99

00:27:14.240 The Manliness of Christ, I wrote that book because I realized that Christ was the most

00:27:20.040 masculine man that ever lived. But I grew up in a generation that told me that Jesus was just

00:27:27.380 gentle and lowly. And he was just the soft and sensitive savior. Because again, we created a

00:27:35.660 feminine version of Christianity to attract women. And it expelled the men. And once you realize, 0.94

00:27:44.080 so I wrote this book really as an emphasis to go, I want to look at all of the masculine elements

00:27:49.280 of Christ. And I hadn't seen anybody done that work yet. And his resolve, his courage, his

00:27:56.220 intensity, his use of language, he would insult people, his aggression, obviously all of it

00:28:02.760 without sin. But it really helped me go, oh, praise the Lord, I have a Savior worth following.

00:28:11.160 And it became a very helpful book for many men to kind of feel like, okay, Christianity,

00:28:19.280 isn't actually, you know, weak or lame.

00:28:24.000 It's the church's expression in this current generation.

00:28:28.760 And so we are, we're seeing some revival.

00:28:31.880 We're seeing some strong pastors being lifted up.

00:28:35.080 I do think it's a good thing.

00:28:36.540 I think that wherever the church goes, the nation follows.

00:28:40.600 And so my hope is that we see more of it.

00:28:44.380 Yeah, I would agree with that.

00:28:45.940 It is funny when people talk about the infusion of morality into politics and then you think about John F. Kennedy, for example, and I think that's really where this started to reach the surface a little bit, so to speak, when we had this congruence or this overlap between politics and spirituality or religion is people were very concerned with his Catholicism.

00:29:08.400 what his catholic beliefs pour into his decision-making process as the leader of our country

00:29:15.300 and now you look at it and like you said earlier everything is moral you know and it's like you

00:29:21.260 can look at at trump for example and i agree with a lot of what trump does and i disagree with a lot

00:29:25.580 of what he does and it's it it is interesting because everybody now is has taken the moral

00:29:33.080 route. And what I found to be fascinating is I don't need to, to necessarily agree with every

00:29:39.520 moral ideology or moral belief that he might have in order to realize that some of the policies are,

00:29:46.960 are, are good. I can separate the two. Do you think there should be a distinction

00:29:51.060 between, you know, church and state, so to speak, or should it be completely congruent?

00:29:56.300 A few things. One, you're just a man and you know how to think in categories.

00:29:59.900 Okay, women can't do that that well, all right? 1.00

00:30:01.720 So this is why when you have somebody, 1.00

00:30:04.000 they can't read between the lines, as you said earlier.

00:30:06.560 Men know how to look and think in categories.

00:30:09.320 Two things can be true at the same time.

00:30:12.460 So a few things I wanted to point out is,

00:30:17.420 because you had my train of thought on something there.

00:30:20.740 I'll have to come back to it.

00:30:24.760 Separation of church and state. 0.96

00:30:26.600 I'll deal with that. 0.56

00:30:27.540 So, oh, I know what I forgot, and then I'll come back to separation of church and state.

00:30:33.840 So we need, right now, you said earlier, unity works, or diversity works if we're moving the

00:30:40.960 same direction. I thought that was a good way of saying that. And the reason I would agree with

00:30:45.060 that is this is the line that I've been using lately in terms of Christians. So I think the 1.00

00:30:50.980 movement right now toward what I would call Christian nationalism needs to be creedal,

00:30:55.540 not confessional. So creedal, meaning that we have really historic creeds. We have the Apostles

00:31:01.660 Creed, we have the Nicene Creed, we have the, you know, Athanasius Creed, which are really

00:31:08.120 core fundamentals about Christianity. Now that would exclude Jehovah's Witnesses, it would exclude 0.96

00:31:14.200 LDS because they are not going to buy into those positions, but it will include Eastern Orthodoxy, 0.61

00:31:19.940 roman catholicism and historic protestantism and you so we need to be creedal in this time

00:31:26.560 not confessional now confessional at the local level is good so at your local church you want

00:31:31.840 to be in a confessional church where you have a clear confession of doctrine where you have

00:31:36.220 greater unity than just creedal unity right so our church we don't quite understand the difference

00:31:41.920 between creedal and confessional can you help unpack that just a little bit yeah so so uh in

00:31:47.600 the Reformed world, you know, you have, so you have like Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians,

00:31:54.840 right? Those are generally the three streams of historic Protestantism out of the 1500s.

00:32:01.180 So the Lutherans hold to the Augsburg Confession. The Presbyterians hold to the Westminster

00:32:06.240 Confession. The Anglicans hold to the 39 Articles. You know, you have the Catholic Church that holds

00:32:12.380 to, you know, the Catholic catechism of the church, right? And so you have these, what I

00:32:18.680 think are more confessional, they're deeply precise and are for greater theological and

00:32:26.720 doctrinal unity at a local level. And so, you know, so our church will hold to kind of all

00:32:33.600 three of those Protestant positions. We would hold, you know, any kind of high church reformed

00:32:40.120 But they're large, they're thick, they're dense, they go on very specifics, where creeds are very broad, and they allow a lot of unity without uniformity.

00:32:57.360 And so I can say the Apostles' Creed with my Roman Catholic brother in Christ and my Eastern Orthodox brother in Christ while still having very serious doctrinal disagreements at a confessional level.

00:33:11.100 And so I think it's important right now that we need to have a creedal movement where we're all diverse for sure.

00:33:19.640 Like I'll fight to the death over some doctrines with Rome.

00:33:23.280 but we are on the same team moving the same direction.

00:33:28.220 We all can stand and recite the Apostles' Creed

00:33:31.440 and Christ is Lord.

00:33:33.780 And so we can push in towards that direction.

00:33:36.860 So I think we're in a season of creedal, not confessional

00:33:40.640 at the broad public state level, at the national level.

00:33:46.000 We need to be pushing for Christian nationalism

00:33:47.780 together in that capacity.

00:33:50.080 Would you say that's, you know,

00:33:52.320 like I immediately I'm going to this like warrior mentality.

00:33:56.340 And I think about one of my favorite movies, Braveheart.

00:33:58.720 And he's like, unite the clans, right?

00:34:00.720 And yes, is that what you're saying?

00:34:03.520 Are you saying let's consolidate the message around Christ

00:34:08.760 and pull together instead of having

00:34:11.980 all of these little petty differences

00:34:13.500 that don't really mean anything

00:34:14.860 in the grand scheme of things?

00:34:16.560 Correct, yeah.

00:34:17.280 So you have, you know, I'm not gonna jump on board

00:34:19.800 with the Marian dogmas with Rome, okay? 0.87

00:34:23.300 I, you know, I'm not gonna jump in

00:34:26.260 with some of the practices of Eastern Orthodoxy,

00:34:29.500 but what we're all gonna jump in on

00:34:31.780 is there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ

00:34:35.000 and Jesus Christ is Lord.

00:34:37.680 And-

00:34:38.240 Do you think that there's churches

00:34:39.360 who would call themselves Christians

00:34:40.840 that would deviate from that? 0.95

00:34:43.160 Yes, I think that there are,

00:34:45.680 well, I mean, we have certainly,

00:34:47.100 uh you know like like we said earlier the lds world the jehovah's witnesses world but there's

00:34:52.380 also too many people within the christian church that say oh we have no involvement with rome or

00:35:02.360 no involvement with eastern orthodoxy and i'm like dude like what are you doing because we have

00:35:07.020 are you going to fight with them against abortion certainly right like if you're at the abortion

00:35:12.400 Mill, and there's the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox guy and the Lutheran guy,

00:35:17.480 are you going to not be there because someone else is there? No, of course. You're on the same team.

00:35:23.180 You have the same enemy. And so now, it would certainly exclude Muslims. It would certainly 1.00

00:35:28.860 exclude Hindus. It would certainly exclude pagans, right? But again, I think, will it always be that 1.00

00:35:36.100 way? You know, I believe America is a Protestant nation, and we were founded as a Protestant

00:35:41.600 nation as a result of the lack of the desire to conform, England's desire for us to conform

00:35:51.240 to the Church of England, which felt too Roman Catholic. And so there's a real Protestant spirit

00:35:57.880 in America's history. Now, we know that- In my ignorance, Dale, on this, real quick,

00:36:03.600 okay, so this is my ignorance showing, and I'm readily willing to acknowledge that. When you say,

00:36:09.960 what makes it Protestant? Because when I think of it, you know, what we hear is this is a Christian

00:36:15.900 nation, right? Why wouldn't we say that versus what you're saying, a Protestant nation? What is

00:36:21.540 the, I don't know. I actually really don't know. What's the difference? Okay, so the, when you had

00:36:27.000 the Reformation, it really began obviously in Germany and Europe, and then you had the English

00:36:33.120 Reformation. Then you had the Anglican Church born, the Lutheran Church born, and the Presbyterian

00:36:39.040 church born. Really the Presbyterian church is, is essentially the Scottish church. Anglican is

00:36:45.240 the English church. Lutheran is the German church. That was essentially what was happening at that

00:36:49.620 point. Okay. Man, I'm going to step away from this conversation briefly. If this thing is hitting

00:36:55.520 home for you, there's something I want you in on. Okay. Tonight, as of the release of this podcast,

00:37:00.640 so tonight, Tuesday, May 19th at 8 PM Eastern, we are hosting an iron council preview call

00:37:07.260 and consider this your invite the iron council is our exclusive brotherhood and it's for men

00:37:13.580 who are done drifting it's for men who are serious about leading your families sharpening

00:37:19.440 and honing your character living this unapologetic life that dale talks about and building the kind

00:37:26.200 of life that actually holds up and not just holds up but but maintains and drives forward

00:37:31.000 under pressure. It's brotherhood. It's camaraderie. It's other men. It's accountability.

00:37:36.700 It's systems. It's standards that most guys, they didn't really know they were hungry for

00:37:43.720 until they found it or until they met catastrophe, job loss, breakdown of relationship,

00:37:52.060 addiction issues, medical issues. And I don't want you to wait to build up this incredible

00:37:57.000 band of brothers until it's too late, until you're dealing with the fallout of something

00:38:01.220 tragic, whether self-imposed or existential. So make sure you join me on the call. It's

00:38:08.380 an hour. This is your chance to find out if it's for you. No pressure. Join us or not.

00:38:14.980 Band with us or not. But at least come have some real conversations with us tonight. And

00:38:19.200 we're going to talk about intentional manhood when you stop going at it alone in life. So

00:38:24.680 again, it's tonight, Tuesday, May 19th, 8 p.m. Eastern. You can get registered RSVP and reserve

00:38:30.480 your spot at theironcouncil.com slash preview. That's theironcouncil.com slash preview. All right,

00:38:39.480 guys, let me get back to it with Dale and we'll enjoy the rest of the conversation.

00:38:45.760 And these are, the Reformation is essentially the Bible. The printing press really is what

00:38:54.280 started the Reformation. Once the Bible became available to the average person, they essentially

00:39:00.660 started reading the Bible. And they looked at the practices of the Roman Catholic Church,

00:39:06.800 and there was stark contrast between the text that they were reading and the practice they

00:39:11.160 were doing. And that, people want to blame it on Martin Luther. And I go, well, if Martin Luther

00:39:18.060 never lived, and the printing press did, it was just a matter of time before the average person

00:39:23.600 was able to read the scriptures and see it would have been somebody else it would have been somebody

00:39:28.700 else and so that created the protestant reformation now when the church of england

00:39:35.380 formed its 39 articles and uh the book of common prayer there was a handful of protestant ministers

00:39:44.880 that said that this still felt like they were binding your conscience to something else other

00:39:50.600 than the word of God. It felt too Roman Catholic. And that created a group called the Puritans. And

00:39:55.740 there was this thing called the Great Ejection. And the Great Ejection was these pastors that

00:40:00.100 were losing their church because the church was controlled by the state. The king was the head of

00:40:05.620 the church. It wasn't the pope anymore. It was now the king. And so these men hopped in 1620.

00:40:13.460 the Mayflower went over to America to start a new world. And these were all Protestants that 0.99

00:40:20.700 were even more Protestant than the Anglican church. They were kind of more, more Presbyterian

00:40:26.340 reformed in that perspective. Now, as the colonies grew, you had some Catholics come over. That's why

00:40:33.600 you have Maryland, Maryland. You had a Catholic state there. I never put that together. Interesting.

00:40:40.220 Yep. That's why you also have Providence, Rhode Island, because you have these ideas of providence that God. So this is very much a Christian colonial space. Now, they get here, and as the culture is set and the colonies are built, there is a desire driven from the very beginning of the freedom of religion.

00:41:06.660 Now, freedom of religion always meant freedom of Christian denominations.

00:41:12.220 It never meant freedom to worship whoever you wanted.

00:41:15.840 That was never in view of anybody in the founding era of our nation.

00:41:22.160 The problem is, it also meant, from the way I understand it, it also meant freedom from persecution of the government, not other institutions or organizations, just the government primarily.

00:41:31.920 Correct. And so you had, again, historically in Europe, you had the government attacking certain ministers for different theological convictions within Christianity. So they get here, and the problem is they use the word religion all the time instead of saying Christianity. It was just the word they used for the day. They should have said Christianity would have been so much more clear in all of our founding documents.

00:41:59.580 but how do you know that so i've just read it there's a book there's a book that i have behind

00:42:05.600 what is it like if somebody's listening to me listening to this right now and they're like well

00:42:09.500 like are you sure like i don't know how would somebody validate what you're saying that it

00:42:14.340 should have been christianity versus the word religion yeah so uh i have a book behind me um

00:42:21.020 called uh political sermons from the american founding era and it's thick it's like a brick

00:42:28.600 and it's a multi-volume set. So there's multiple books and it's all of these excellent sermons

00:42:33.900 from about 1730 to 1830. And I read them quite often. In fact, I read one this morning on the

00:42:42.780 love of country and the constant use of these very Christian ministers. They use the word

00:42:51.320 religion for Christianity everywhere constantly. It's like, it's the way that it was used at that

00:42:55.800 time. It would be mathematically impossible to view it any other way. If you just spent time

00:43:01.920 reading enough literature from that time, you go, oh yeah, when they say religion, they mean

00:43:05.980 Christianity. No one meant Islam. No one meant Hinduism.

00:43:11.240 Yeah. And I imagine from the perspective of coming from England, the amount of exposure to

00:43:17.820 Islam or Hinduism was probably minimal relative to what it is today, which is why they didn't say

00:43:24.920 anything else. Yeah, of course. And the only experience they had with it was that their 1.00

00:43:30.040 forefathers had absolutely conquered them after they had invaded their lands through the Crusades,

00:43:34.860 right? So it was very much, they had a love for all mankind, but they were very much against

00:43:43.260 Islam or Hinduism. Like the idea of having what we have today would, our forefathers would have 0.95

00:43:50.080 started wars a hundred years ago. You know, it was just, it's unbelievable, maybe not a hundred

00:43:54.580 years ago, but certainly 60 years ago. And so, so the separation of church and state, this is,

00:44:01.100 this is another key distinction is, well, let me back up one. I want to say one more thing on

00:44:06.100 freedom of religion. So freedom of religion is that the first commandment is no other gods.

00:44:10.660 Okay. The second commandment is no idols. All right. So Jesus says, if you love me,

00:44:15.340 you keep my commandments. Right. So that we know that, you know, that we obviously aren't

00:44:18.840 saved by keeping the law, but when we're saved, we try to keep the law, not because it saves us,

00:44:24.400 but because it pleases God, right? So the first commandment, no other gods. Jesus is not for

00:44:32.160 freedom of religion. I mean, the Great Commission literally says, go therefore make disciples of all

00:44:36.220 nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that

00:44:41.640 I have commanded you. So you can't be a Christian and say, yeah, freedom of religion. No, I don't

00:44:48.760 think you want forced christianity so you can say it that way i i don't think anybody was thinking

00:44:53.760 well that takes away his ability to give us agency and we know that's one of the greatest

00:44:58.060 gifts that we have is our ability to choose for ourselves yeah so you have this idea of

00:45:02.960 you don't want forced religion um but you don't want freedom of go choose your god no jesus is

00:45:10.160 not for that at all um so back to to separate separation of church and state church and state

00:45:15.480 essentially are, when we get here, we go,

00:45:19.680 we want a separation of church and state

00:45:21.320 because they came out of a tyrannical element

00:45:24.280 where there was a perversion of the spheres of sovereignty.

00:45:27.320 And the spheres of sovereignty are the family,

00:45:30.840 the church, and the state.

00:45:33.220 And each one has its own authority, right?

00:45:36.400 So the family, the head of the family is the father.

00:45:41.360 He has a tool, which is the-

00:45:42.900 He's the patriarch.

00:45:43.880 He has a tool, which is the rod to bring discipline.

00:45:47.260 We have the church, right?

00:45:49.100 The church is, the head of the church is Christ,

00:45:52.920 but then there's the administers of the church,

00:45:54.920 which are men, the elders and the deacons of the church.

00:45:57.920 And he has a tool for discipline,

00:45:59.700 which is the keys to the kingdom,

00:46:02.220 which is also church discipline element, right?

00:46:05.180 Then you have the state and the head of the state

00:46:08.220 is essentially God has appointed, Romans 13,

00:46:11.920 but it was, I would say is the king or the president, whatever you may be. I'm a fan of

00:46:17.780 monarchy, but the state also has a tool for discipline, which is the sword. And there are

00:46:25.560 some overlapping areas of the family and the church and the family and the state and some of

00:46:29.940 those things. But what's happened in the old world is that they were having a blending of the church

00:46:36.480 and the state together, meaning that the king would be able to administer sacraments and the

00:46:44.020 church would be able to afflict capital punishment, burning people to the state or, you know, whatever

00:46:49.620 it may be for particular doctrines. And so a separation of church and state essentially means

00:46:55.400 that, no, the church will not be getting involved with law and the state will not be getting

00:47:04.800 involved with worship and the sacraments. Those things remain separate. Does it mean

00:47:08.700 that a separation of church and state does not mean a separation of God from state?

00:47:15.000 No, the state's job is always, sorry, the church's job is always to disciple the state

00:47:20.860 because we see that again in the Great Commission. You know, go therefore make disciples of all

00:47:25.860 nations. In fact, it doesn't even say that in the Greek. When I was taking Greek in seminary,

00:47:30.740 you learn quickly that it says, go therefore and disciple the nations, baptizing them. And when you

00:47:39.020 look at the word them, the only noun that you can reference back to the pronoun them is nation. So

00:47:48.640 it's actually talking about baptizing the nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy

00:47:53.460 Spirit. Now, certainly we apply that as individuals as we're baptizing the people of nations because

00:47:58.080 people, a bunch of people make up a nation. Make a nation. Correct. Yeah. And then you teach

00:48:03.420 them, that is again, the nations, all that Christ commanded. And so our duty is to teach nations.

00:48:09.640 So the church's job is always to disciple the state. And that's what we're doing. And that's

00:48:14.460 what we haven't been doing for a long time. And we have not been political. We have not been

00:48:19.520 speaking truth. And when you read these sermons out of that book, political sermons from the

00:48:25.540 American founding era, you start to see, wow, our pastors were extremely politically engaged.

00:48:34.020 John Witherspoon, he was one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence. He's

00:48:39.400 a Presbyterian minister. He's also like the eighth great-grandfather of Reese Witherspoon.

00:48:45.640 And he is politically astute. Or you look at like the Federalist Papers written by John Jay. He's

00:48:54.040 the first uh he's the first uh supreme court justice in the united states he is not a pastor

00:49:01.280 but his writings sound like he's a seminarian professor of course because he's because they're

00:49:09.040 so theologically um intellectually robust and and so what we need right now our state is filled with

00:49:20.980 low IQ theological Christians. Like we get like the Ted Cruises of the world and it's like, okay, 1.00

00:49:29.400 the guy's probably a Christian. He probably loves the Lord, but he doesn't even know fundamental

00:49:34.220 theology. And then I don't think it's, I mean, to be fair though, I don't, I don't think it's,

00:49:39.000 I do want to say this because I almost lump myself into that category and I don't know that

00:49:43.420 it's low IQ necessarily, or just ignorance. And I'm not even saying ignorance as an insult. I'm

00:49:48.600 saying in the truest definition of the word, we just don't know. It's probably a better term to

00:49:54.300 use that you said there. My thought is we need, so why are pastors stepping into the political

00:50:02.540 arena? Well, it's because they seem to be the only ones trained theologically to handle the

00:50:11.000 moral realities of the state right now. And that's unfortunate because I don't want

00:50:19.320 pastors to have to go be senators. I think most pastors go, I wish that I could just sit here and

00:50:26.360 talk about the atonement. But the reality is, is that right now at this particular time,

00:50:33.400 pastors are needed in a different dimension. So our job at the same time is to raise up

00:50:39.420 about godly, theologically catechized men and children so that in 10, 20 years, we do have

00:50:49.840 those men who are maybe not called to ministry, but are called to the state, but are nearly as

00:50:56.360 theologically astute as most pastors because they've been under the preaching of the word

00:51:01.820 from a faithful pastor for many, many years. And so-

00:51:05.720 But how do you make the case to somebody, because what you're doing now, and by the

00:51:10.440 way, I don't disagree with you, but what you are doing is an appeal to authority.

00:51:16.380 And not everybody acknowledges the authority that you're appealing to.

00:51:20.160 So how do we reach the men who might say, hey, I believe in morality, but I don't believe

00:51:25.740 in this appeal to authority that you're recommending?

00:51:29.300 And how do we get them on board, so to speak?

00:51:33.800 Yeah, well, you cannot appeal to morality without authority.

00:51:37.320 It's illogical.

00:51:39.740 I would go, oh, so it's wrong to murder?

00:51:41.960 By what standard?

00:51:43.400 Says who?

00:51:44.640 Well, most people would say the state,

00:51:46.480 but then they'll argue when the state changes

00:51:48.360 their version of morality or they disagree with it.

00:51:50.920 So then it's not objective morality in their mind either.

00:51:53.740 Correct, they're going off of consensus. 1.00

00:51:56.040 Consensus morality is what women do. 1.00

00:51:58.520 No, objective morality is what men do. 0.88

00:52:00.880 You gotta find a worldview.

00:52:02.060 you. Like you got to figure out what's true. Truth is the foundation of all things. And so I would

00:52:08.960 go, well, it's loving. It's never loving. I'll say this. It's never loving to put people under the

00:52:17.600 leadership of people who hate God. And so if we fulfill the second greatest commandment, Jesus

00:52:25.240 sums up the entire law saying, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with

00:52:29.620 all your mind. And the second is like it to love your neighbor as yourself. So is it loving to put

00:52:37.660 your neighbor under the people who hate God, who essentially will become moral tyrants whenever

00:52:44.000 their emotions sway? No. Is it loving? Well, I'll say this. It's never loving to put people

00:52:50.800 under laws that say it's good to kill your babies, or it's okay to kill your babies, 0.83

00:52:54.980 or it's okay for two men to get married 1.00

00:52:56.720 or it's okay for chopping off genitals of children. 0.98

00:53:03.300 It's not whether America will be religious. 0.99

00:53:06.600 It's which religion will dominate America.

00:53:09.320 There is no such thing as neutrality. 0.98

00:53:11.860 There is no secularism.

00:53:13.780 How do you define religion?

00:53:15.680 Because I've heard that argument before

00:53:17.160 and it's an interesting point

00:53:19.740 because when you say religion,

00:53:22.000 most people think of some spiritual belief, right?

00:53:25.420 I believe in this higher power

00:53:26.640 and that's what dictates my religion.

00:53:29.580 How do you dictate the religion of the left, for example?

00:53:34.000 Like how would that be a religion?

00:53:37.240 All actions are worship, okay?

00:53:40.560 So when we're at church on Sunday and we go,

00:53:45.300 you know, how is the left taking over?

00:53:47.860 Well, because when you're at church,

00:53:49.280 their worship is the state and political control. So they spend their time and their energy

00:53:57.560 and their faculties while you're hanging out with your kids, while you're going and worshiping

00:54:03.580 Christ, they're out there making sure that you can't worship Christ, that you can't do what you

00:54:10.720 want with your own family. And so worship is a form of adoration. What do you care about?

00:54:18.080 what do you bow down and and so i always tell people like um like only fans what what is really

00:54:27.800 if you zoom out what is only fans well it's it's the worship of women it's literally men laying

00:54:35.920 down on the floor with their wallets open before naked women yeah it's not it's not even women i

00:54:42.040 don't even think it's women i think it's the the female body and that does not encapsulate the 0.98

00:54:46.680 entirety of women correct yeah it's sex the the the idol that they're worshiping is sex and and so

00:54:55.740 uh it's not whether you'll worship it's what things or which things which gods you will worship 0.88

00:55:03.220 and so and so we need to get to a place go what do you worship and that's why you know what is

00:55:12.220 the chief end of man, right? You know, as the statement in the catechism for the Westminster

00:55:19.080 Confession is the first question. And, you know, it's essentially, if I want to dumb it down for,

00:55:28.800 you know, the kind of a basic audience, is to love Christ and enjoy him forever. It's to,

00:55:36.200 serve Christ and make Christ known. It's to make sure that Christ is at front. If Christ isn't at

00:55:45.720 front, then everything else will be disordered. And so Christ is the lead. I mean, it's why Jesus

00:55:53.880 says, if you love your father or mother more than me, you're not worthy of me. If you love your

00:55:59.880 daughter or son more than me, you're not worthy of me. If you love your own life more than me,

00:56:04.200 you're not worthy of me these are crazy statements it's it makes sense though because you know once

00:56:12.020 if you love god and you believe that god has given you what you have and he has authority

00:56:16.960 and rule over your life then you're to treat the gifts he gave you including your body or your

00:56:22.980 wife or your children or your finances or your car even the temporal things as his correct and

00:56:33.340 that's why men need a worldview. And the problem is that Christianity has been so feminized for so 0.61

00:56:41.400 long that their experience with it has been so bad that they don't turn to Christ. And that's why 0.96

00:56:50.360 I wrote that book, The Manliness of Christ. That's why I continue to be who I am and preach what I

00:56:57.760 preach because when you look at historic biblical Christianity, man, it's epic. It's epic. And I

00:57:06.220 always remind people this. If I could have had more time and wasn't so busy, I would have gone

00:57:14.300 back and got a doctorate in history. I love history. But if historically the church, there's

00:57:21.480 two models of the church. Historically, it's been a line, but today it's more like a circle.

00:57:29.220 Now, a line is that they were standing shoulder to shoulder, getting ready to hear the truth of

00:57:37.140 the gospel and to march into the world, proclaiming the kingship of Christ, the kingdom of God,

00:57:43.820 righteousness, goodness, holiness to the world. Today, the church is more like a circle,

00:57:50.340 which is more introspective it's more discussion relational um it's it's it's turned into a little

00:58:00.540 a little huddle and again that's the term we use here so like relief society or social hour

00:58:06.900 yep yeah and that that is which attract which model is is going to attract men well of course

00:58:13.220 the first model and all throughout church history we see that first model i mean like even today

00:58:18.120 Like, you know, we sing, you know, we sing hymns and psalms at our church.

00:58:24.000 We don't sing some of the kind of newer, not that those songs are necessarily bad,

00:58:28.620 but like one of our favorite songs we sing at our church is The Son of God Goes Forth to War.

00:58:34.600 It's number 666 in our hymnal.

00:58:36.760 It's awesome.

00:58:38.980 And they put it there specifically on 666 because the Son of God goes forth to war.

00:58:43.920 and it's like an old Irish like sea shanty style song and all of our families and kids are singing

00:58:52.260 with it and the men are belting it out and you get into a church like that you're like this is

00:58:57.620 awesome this is one of the most one of the most spiritual moments I've ever had and this is just

00:59:03.540 going to confirm what you're saying so I was in Iraq Iraq in 2005 through 2006 and I remember

00:59:10.380 walking into a chapel which was a building that we had just taken over and it was a former Iraqi

00:59:16.000 detention facility that we were housed in and this is one of the buildings and we all walked

00:59:21.480 into church and we're all in our fatigues and camo and we all have our rifles and our weapons

00:59:26.420 with us and we take our rifles and we set them under the benches and the pews that they had

00:59:30.140 brought in and we start singing hymns and for 80 100 120 of us sitting in that that that adobe 0.83

00:59:40.040 dirty nasty building in the middle of the iraqi desert with our rifles under our benches singing

00:59:48.560 hymns was one of the most powerful spiritual experiences that i have ever had bar none yep

00:59:55.020 100 it's it's essentially the warrior poet embodied it is literally david right david's

01:00:04.300 like, I'm going to go slay men and then write the Psalms. It's like, it's that beautiful irony

01:00:11.240 and it's wonderful. It's glorious. And it's like Christ who is literally the King of Kings and the

01:00:17.940 Lord of Lords, but also dies for the sake of his people. I mean, it's that kind of

01:00:23.920 awesomeness that you got to get back into in the historic Christian faith. And so,

01:00:30.220 you know, by God, we'll have our home again. By God, we'll have our church again

01:00:35.900 in the sense of, you know, I think there's a great thing happening in America. So we'll see,

01:00:40.560 Lord willing. What do you feel like, and I know we're brushing up against time and maybe we need

01:00:47.180 to run this back, but what would you say are, you know, the top two to three societal issues

01:00:55.420 that we as men need to be very aware of you know i i think about and i talk with my kids about this

01:01:00.740 all the time in fact is open borders you know like and i told my son the other night i said you

01:01:05.260 know what everybody needs to close their border literally every country close your border you

01:01:10.660 guys deal with your things the way you see fit we'll deal with ours and then we'll invite you

01:01:14.820 on a case-by-case basis if we feel like it warrants it but everybody ought to close the

01:01:19.880 border but what are some other societal issues that you feel like are some of the most potentially

01:01:24.720 threatening to western civilization yeah so first i have three and i will give you all three of them

01:01:31.900 in a second but these three i will call dragons and the problem is is that many men want to sit

01:01:39.000 here and kill dead dragons they want to fight dragons that are actually basically dead um

01:01:47.220 communism in its like 1960s form it's basically dead okay like is there places that it exists 0.87

01:01:56.440 sure um right now that's not the dragon that's about to eat us okay um racism and like real

01:02:06.380 racism i'm talking like people that like i just hate you because of the color of your skin okay

01:02:11.920 that that dragon's dead um they want to pretend like it's still alive because they don't want to

01:02:18.380 deal with reality um and so a lot of men want to look like they're great warriors fighting these

01:02:25.000 dragons while they are really afraid of the three dragons that are here that's such an interesting

01:02:31.960 way to put it like it's it's almost it's it's virtue signaling it's like you're fighting against

01:02:36.960 something that's not real and you're trying to make yourself sound awesome for doing it that's

01:02:43.000 interesting i've never heard it put that way and there are certainly some dragons that are half

01:02:47.480 dead and you still need to stab in the chest every now and then right but but i think the three most

01:02:53.480 deadly dragons of our day are and i'm not going to put them in a particular order but i will say

01:03:00.000 are feminism, immigration or demographic replacement,

01:03:07.060 which would include conversations around race and culture 1.00

01:03:10.460 and all that stuff.

01:03:11.380 And then the political reality of Israel.

01:03:16.000 Those three things, in my opinion,

01:03:17.940 are the most important issues to be talking about

01:03:21.320 as it pertains to saving the West. 1.00

01:03:26.400 And so if we talk about feminism, certainly. 1.00

01:03:30.000 it's so clear. Feminism is the water we swim in. It's the air we breathe. 1.00

01:03:37.020 You and I are like the least feministic people out there. And we still have some feministic 1.00

01:03:43.120 tendencies because it's all around us. We've been raised in it. And so washing that off of us is so 1.00

01:03:50.200 difficult. And every time you do it, it feels like you're some oppressive, misogynistic jerk. 1.00

01:03:56.100 um and i get that all the time which is hilarious at this point i'm like yeah if you mean that i 0.99

01:04:01.600 want to protect over the people i love i want to provide for the the woman in my life and my

01:04:07.100 children and i want to lead effectively yeah i'm a misogynist that's what i am yes i gladly accept

01:04:12.340 the title i yeah i always tell people uh like um i would distinguish differently i would say

01:04:18.440 not a misogynist i'm a sexist i'm a biblical sexist um because i think that people are less

01:04:24.920 likely to go like to bounce against you on that one but i will say i will say that so feminism 0.50

01:04:30.540 including the repealing of the 19th amendment um now the 19th amendment i don't think will

01:04:36.980 actually be repealed in these united states but i'm writing a book on that that comes out in

01:04:42.120 september why even talk about it if you don't think it's possible well i do think that we're

01:04:47.380 going to have some sort of balkanization in the united states over the next 10 15 years maybe

01:04:52.680 sooner. And whatever that new nation is, needs to have this stuff in mind. And so I'm kind of

01:05:02.920 laying groundwork for whatever new nation comes out of the United States in the future years, 1.00

01:05:07.980 they go, yeah, we're not having women vote. Because you can tie so much of our problems, 1.00

01:05:16.840 including israel and uh immigration to women well and and i would go so far as and i'm sure 0.99

01:05:25.320 maybe you would i don't want to put words in your mouth but keeping women women out of the 1.00

01:05:29.520 judicial judicial system it's it's horrible it is atrocious yeah women shouldn't do anything 1.00

01:05:36.640 that is outside and contrary to their nature and and what i mean by that is that women are 1.00

01:05:42.140 administrative, they're helpers, they're compassionate. So I go, well, can women never 1.00

01:05:47.560 work? No, I don't. I think that women can work, especially if it's not compromising their children, 1.00

01:05:52.380 their kids are maybe grown or they don't have kids yet, or maybe the Lord hasn't given them 1.00

01:05:57.020 children, whatever it may be. How can a woman help? Well, first, her first ministry is to help 1.00

01:06:01.560 her husband. And so she's not to try to go and like create her own path. Like I don't imagine

01:06:06.500 Adam and saying, you know, oh, thank the Lord for this beautiful helper, Eve. And then God going,

01:06:12.400 yeah, Eve, go chase your dreams. You know, no, no, it's, it's, she is there to help Adam.

01:06:17.560 Now, if helping her husband means, you know, some sort of financial support, you know, can't,

01:06:24.580 what, what, what careers are great for women? I would say, well, maybe being a nurse. I think 0.99

01:06:28.360 women are good at being nurses. They're, they're, it's a part of loving and ministry and mercy and 1.00

01:06:32.960 child care, you know, administrative realities, being a secretary, some of those things that are

01:06:39.640 they're good for women to do because they're delicate tasks that aren't for men that are

01:06:44.520 strong and intended to be outside and don't require courage or valor or whatever it may be. 0.95

01:06:52.560 And so, yes, we need to deal with feminism. That's big dragon. Another dragon is certainly 1.00

01:06:58.440 immigration, demographic replacements, nationalism. I'm working on another book.

01:07:06.020 It's probably going to be probably the most intense book and the most studied book that

01:07:11.720 I've ever written. It's called God's Design for Nations. And I'm trying to release that

01:07:18.920 early next year. I've been studying for some time. It's essentially a biblical theological

01:07:28.080 argument around race, ethnicity, culture, and how that all lays in with Christian nationalism.

01:07:36.900 And so there's a great book by Stephen Wolf. I mean, that's an interesting word. Even the

01:07:42.380 phrase, Christian nationalism. When I hear that, I'm like, yeah, I'm Christian and I believe in

01:07:50.160 the supremacy of our nation. Yeah, exactly. And if you have a nation without Christianity,

01:07:58.080 that's not good because it'll eventually devolve into something you hate um and and so

01:08:05.660 uh this is my my main argument on the nationalism stuff is christian nationalism is not just

01:08:11.720 christian multiculturalism that that'd be better than what we have today i mean if everybody was

01:08:16.960 christian but then we still had multiple cultures you know we had like well again that goes back to

01:08:21.280 what we were saying about rowing in the same direction if we're all christian regardless of

01:08:25.180 our ethnicity or even our cultural upbringing, we're still all rowing in the same direction with

01:08:31.200 some insight that might help us get there more efficiently. Correct. Yeah. So I go,

01:08:35.200 it's better than what we have, but it's still not Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism would 0.99

01:08:39.800 be, well, nations, it's Christian and it's nationalism. What is a nation? I always tell 0.60

01:08:47.680 people the simplest definition is a nation is the broadest form of an ethnic family.

01:08:53.200 okay that's what a nation is um and so the german peoples are an ethnic family like a

01:09:01.300 biologically dna family it doesn't mean that you can't have immigration it doesn't mean you can't

01:09:06.060 but you you got to keep a nation to have a national core identity as we had maybe you know

01:09:11.740 you and i are about the same age in the 90s like we especially in the in the 70s and 60s and before

01:09:16.820 heart seller act but but we had 90 of america was basically white european stock and but we

01:09:24.860 saw assimilation is so important like i you can like if we invite you to our country

01:09:30.420 for a reason for like a tangible reason and you come in and you embrace our culture

01:09:38.340 our traditions our language our spiritual beliefs and practices yes we would love to

01:09:44.860 have you here yes and only if you come in small numbers and and the reason is because that's what

01:09:51.440 required that's it's required for assimilation otherwise you'll just create pockets of other

01:09:56.760 nations inside of ours you get Dearborn Michigan which is a Muslim nation essentially inside of

01:10:02.720 America and you get Chinatown and Koreatown and and you know all these different Slavic

01:10:08.120 neighborhoods and Asian neighborhoods and Arcadia that we just talked about you know in the news

01:10:11.760 you know 60 chinese and so the chinese the woman who's a basically a chinese asset the the mayor i

01:10:19.880 think is a chinese asset so it's we we we so badly need again christian nationalism and then the last

01:10:28.000 thing is is certainly israel which has layers of of content and and on both ends can be ditches

01:10:37.420 Right. So you can have like the Zionist kind of Americans, Christian Zionist space that's like, you know, pro-Israel.

01:10:47.460 And you could even have like, again, like Ben Shapiro, who's like, you know, anti-Christ, truly. 0.57

01:10:54.040 And, you know, I would say tolerant of Christianity for sure, but rejects Christ.

01:11:02.360 And then you have like kind of American Christian Zionists, 0.97

01:11:06.060 dispensationalism, kind of the Jews are God's chosen people

01:11:10.440 and we should be giving everything we have

01:11:13.760 to that nation in the Middle East.

01:11:15.880 And then you have people who are like reformed and Catholic

01:11:18.820 and that are like, no, the church is the chosen people of God.

01:11:22.960 And, but, you know, I'm not really interested

01:11:26.280 in the political debate about it, you know,

01:11:28.220 and so they have theologically right,

01:11:29.460 but they're not willing to engage in it

01:11:31.240 anywhere in the state. Then you have a group that I would call myself a part of, which is

01:11:36.140 reformed, where we don't want, if there's a valid reason for partnering with Israel on a particular 0.88

01:11:44.080 point, then, and it's logically makes sense, then sure. But I think the vast majority of our ties

01:11:49.960 to Israel are a result of bad theology. And so our theological position, oh, the Jews are the 1.00

01:11:57.180 chosen people and that's from a dispensational framework and so that's that's a problem then

01:12:02.080 you have the fifth group which is like genuinely like genuinely anti-semitic um in the sense that

01:12:09.860 they are um you know like the the neo-nazi real group down there now everybody's going to still 0.85

01:12:17.580 think that my group is nazis because they're just going to say oh look at you you just hate jews

01:12:22.360 yeah yeah and i just go no no again we got to think in distinctions we got to think in categories 0.80

01:12:26.920 I actually, I wrote another book.

01:12:28.080 I don't know if you've seen this one,

01:12:28.860 but this one's The Israel Delusion.

01:12:30.740 It's very short.

01:12:31.360 You can read it in like an hour,

01:12:34.480 but it's just a short treatise on,

01:12:36.920 I think a very balanced perspective

01:12:39.980 on America's weird relationship with Israel

01:12:42.880 and how it's theological.

01:12:45.040 And I think if you eliminate the theology,

01:12:47.540 you start to go, okay, let's just treat it

01:12:49.960 like we would treat Bangladesh.

01:12:52.040 If there's a great reason for us to partner with Bangladesh,

01:12:54.120 then I'm fine too. 0.78

01:12:55.140 Then let's do it.

01:12:55.760 But why, yeah, but why are we having like, 0.89

01:12:57.920 our whole world is like attached to Israel. 0.91

01:13:00.400 Even other Christians come from like, 0.54

01:13:01.900 I have a friend that lives in Germany. 1.00

01:13:02.940 And he's like, you guys have such a weird thing. 1.00

01:13:05.800 And there's Christians in Germany and Canada. 1.00

01:13:07.760 I have a friend from Canada. 0.87

01:13:08.580 He's like, why do you guys have 0.89

01:13:09.760 this weird relationship with Israel? 1.00

01:13:11.560 Like when the rest of the Christian world comes here,

01:13:14.560 they go like, why are you,

01:13:17.220 why do you have this relationship?

01:13:18.440 And it's all theological.

01:13:19.920 So those dragons, and if you take in again, 0.98

01:13:23.400 the Jews and the involvement and a bunch of other things, you know, pornography and usury and some 0.98

01:13:27.740 of the other stuff. Again, you can fall into ditches, but all of those I think are very 1.00

01:13:33.460 important issues in saving the West. Well, Dale, this has been amazing. I already know that this

01:13:41.160 is going to be very polarizing, which I don't mind. I, you know, and maybe this goes back to

01:13:48.340 what you were saying about the confrontational demeanor of men it's like good let's talk about

01:13:54.440 it like i'm okay with talking about it like why why are we not having real conversations why are

01:13:59.880 we talking about dead dragons as you speak let's actually we can debate and discuss and we can get

01:14:05.580 heated we can be civil but we can do it intelligently and rationally and i would much

01:14:11.060 rather have conversations like this than we always agree on everything but anything we agree on

01:14:16.600 doesn't actually really matter and uh i'm interested in going deeper into the things that do

01:14:21.880 yeah there was even a study that was like like men are nicer to their enemies than women are to

01:14:30.120 their allies and and it's true like because a man can kill you and so that's probably very true 0.57

01:14:37.940 yeah so so men like you could have these hardcore discussions and men go okay like let's talk it

01:14:45.660 out. There might even be some heated words. And at the end of the day, they can, they can actually

01:14:49.940 still go, you know, smoke a cigar together and not want to kill each other. Um, and there's just

01:14:57.080 a desire, like you can do that with men, even on like different sides of the, of the field. Um,

01:15:04.320 and it's, yeah, it's a, maybe it's a strength under control element that allows us to do that,

01:15:10.420 but initially this is a sure destruction yes yeah 100 so but yeah thank you for having wrote 0.57

01:15:17.680 that down men are better to their enemies than women are to their friends man that is so true 0.98

01:15:22.420 that is so yeah yeah so it was good to talk to with you on this topic and um i i uh if anybody's 1.00

01:15:29.740 watching i'm i'm i just launched a new show called american grit and it's it's literally i launched

01:15:37.760 the day we're filming this, I launched the first episode today. And it's just a weekly show kind of

01:15:43.660 on everything we talked about today on this show. So I'm just stoked to be able to have these

01:15:51.180 discussions and your audience has got such a huge overlap with my audience. And so it was really

01:15:57.240 great to catch up with you. Yeah. With American Grit, is that a podcast? Is that a YouTube series?

01:16:02.780 Like what's the format and where do we go to find that out?

01:16:05.800 Yeah, it's YouTube and it's podcast.

01:16:08.820 And so YouTube's got like cool slides and stuff on the videos

01:16:12.820 and it's filmed in my studio here.

01:16:15.640 And we released that with a media company called NXR

01:16:20.020 and we're partnering with there.

01:16:21.740 And so it's a great program.

01:16:23.740 It's gonna be multiple seasons, eight episodes per season.

01:16:28.280 Season one is on American identity.

01:16:30.220 So the first episode is what is an American?

01:16:32.780 and so we're talking about some great conversations there and again I'm just kind of doing my shot

01:16:39.800 off the bow right I'm just like let's you know I'm not I'm not an absolute scholar in these areas

01:16:46.260 but I think I'm willing to study and to have the conversation hopefully we'll start greater

01:16:51.700 conversations in America on the on the topic I hope so man I love your voice I love the way

01:16:57.060 that you communicate what it is you're doing. Um, I, I, I follow closely your Instagram account

01:17:04.940 and other, and other avenues. And there, admittedly there's been posts where I'm like,

01:17:08.940 I agree with that, but I'm not going to like that one because, and, and that to me is indicative of

01:17:16.280 the courage that you have, the, the, the, the courage and the fortitude that you have to be

01:17:20.860 able to put out what is very, very polarizing. And I want to commend you for that. It's a breath

01:17:26.640 of fresh air, even though I may not agree with everything, at least I can respect and appreciate

01:17:33.200 the courage it takes to make the statements that you do. And here's one more thing I'll say

01:17:38.400 is you're a man who I believe actually believes in what you're saying, because we live in a 0.99

01:17:44.760 culture right now where I can get on social media and type the dumbest shit and get a bunch of 0.98

01:17:50.900 clicks and everything else without having to believe or back up anything I said. And I appreciate 0.99

01:17:56.140 that about you because you believe it and you're willing to stand by it. And that means a lot to me.

01:18:00.460 So I appreciate you, man. Yeah. You know, and I know we can't end this episode because we just

01:18:05.460 keep talking, but, but it's, yeah, but I'll say this. You're right. Instagram. I actually love

01:18:15.320 that X makes it so that your likes are private. I think, I think everybody should do that because

01:18:20.660 it allows you to really, it proves what actually people want. There's lots of people who won't like

01:18:28.480 something even though they like it because they fear that someone will see what they liked,

01:18:32.300 maybe their job and maybe their pastor, maybe whatever, right? And so I think it allows us

01:18:38.360 to see what is actually truly the shift in culture. I will say this, we are seeing over here,

01:18:45.660 my platform, massive growth. Like, uh, we're growing on Instagram close to 10,000 followers

01:18:53.820 a month. Um, maybe five to 7,000 on X, uh, another five to 10,000 on Facebook. And yes,

01:19:03.760 the comments are wild. Everybody hates me. Holy smokes. Um, but, but it's, it's, it's really good

01:19:10.140 to see. It feels like it is. Yeah. It's, it's really, I always tell people I go, if there's,

01:19:14.480 500 comments of hate, but there's like 10,000 likes, you got to remember that the people who

01:19:21.040 like it never comment. And so it's always the people who hate it who comment. And so you just

01:19:27.240 got to go like, that's the kind of social media warfare that we're in right now. But we are,

01:19:33.820 we're seeing growth because I do think the next generation is looking for what we're talking

01:19:39.820 about. And so, yeah, I expect that your platform's going to grow as well, Ryan. And yeah, let's just

01:19:46.460 keep being brave, bold, and talking about these things. Absolutely. Well, guys, if you liked what

01:19:50.580 you heard today, make sure you go follow Dale and comment. Stop being so nice and passive. Go comment

01:19:56.420 to offset some of that hostility and negativity. Dale, appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining

01:20:00.220 me today. And thanks for having me. All right, guys, if you didn't know Dale before, you know

01:20:05.780 him now, like I said, I really respect and appreciate this man because he is raw. He is

01:20:11.320 honest. He's unapologetic. He's got opinions and he stands by them. And if there is a

01:20:17.160 redeeming quality that more men in society need now more than ever, it's that. And he exemplifies

01:20:24.220 that. So make sure you check out his podcast, Real Christianity. Check out relearn.org. Connect

01:20:30.020 with him on the socials at Dale Partridge. He's got his books, including Manliness of Christ.

01:20:35.780 I hope you enjoyed that one. We talked about doing a part two. If you want a part two,

01:20:40.020 drop a comment below in YouTube. We're really building up our YouTube channel. So go over to

01:20:45.900 youtube.com slash order of man. If you're not already and drop a comment, good, bad, and

01:20:52.280 different. Let me know your thoughts. I know this one's going to be a polarizing one. I'm okay with

01:20:56.200 that. We can have real conversations. We should have real conversations as men. And I think Dale

01:21:01.280 is leading the way. All right, guys, outside of that, make sure you're on our preview call tonight.

01:21:05.560 Tuesday, May 19th at 8 p.m. Eastern, theironcouncil.com slash preview. And I will

01:21:11.600 look forward to seeing you guys there. All right, guys, have a good day. We'll catch you tomorrow

01:21:17.760 for our Ask Me Anything. Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to

01:21:23.140 be. Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your

01:21:28.500 life and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:21:35.560 Thank you.

Order of Man - May 19, 2026

DALE PARTRIDGE ｜ Why Society Has Become Effeminate (and, What to Do About It…)

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