Order of Man - DAVID MEESSEN ｜ Dating Advice for Men in the Modern Era

00:00:00.000 I think we can all agree that dating isn't what it used to be even 20 years ago with the rise of

00:00:05.360 hookup culture and extreme feminism and woke ideology and just a general increase in degeneracy

00:00:11.820 today. It can feel impossible at times to find the right woman, let alone start a relationship

00:00:16.820 with her. My guest today is David Mason, a dating coach for men who has helped hundreds of men

00:00:22.520 overcome confidence issues, improve their communication and ultimately attract high

00:00:27.240 value women. Today, David and I talk about the rise in resentment towards women and how that

00:00:32.100 doesn't really help your cause. Why your intent is more important than your tactics when approaching

00:00:37.880 women, how to become verbally agile, showing proof of who you are over just your promises.

00:00:43.660 Why needs not being met is the single greatest factor in emotional insecurity and whether it's

00:00:49.800 better to win over her brain or her heart. And guys, if you're already hitched and you're already

00:00:55.160 married, this one can still serve you because there's a lot of insight that will apply to you

00:00:59.080 as well. Enjoy.

00:01:00.020 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:01:06.040 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily deterred,

00:01:11.880 defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become

00:01:19.380 at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:25.140 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm the host and the founder of the

00:01:29.480 Order of Man podcast and movement. I want to welcome you here, whether you've been with us

00:01:33.340 for a long time, or this is your very, uh, very first interview that you're listening to of the

00:01:38.940 Order of Man podcast. What we're trying to do here is help men become better. And we all have a long

00:01:44.840 way to go. I'm not pointing fingers at you as much as I'm pointing at the man in the mirror.

00:01:49.220 I have a long way to go. I think you probably feel the same. Otherwise you wouldn't be listening

00:01:53.960 to a podcast for men. So, uh, at this point, I think I can confidently say,

00:01:59.000 try not to be arrogant here, that this is the premier podcast for men. We have guys like

00:02:05.240 David who I found today regarding dating, Jocko Willink, David Goggins has been on the podcast,

00:02:10.720 Terry Cruz, Tim Tebow, Tim Kennedy, Dan Crenshaw, uh, Andy Frisilla. I mean, Ben Shapiro, I can't

00:02:19.700 even list how many incredible men we've had on the podcast. Cause we've had, I think 460 or so,

00:02:25.660 uh, incredible guys on this podcast. So want to welcome you here. Uh, hopefully you'll get a lot

00:02:30.720 from this one. And again, you don't need to be in the dating market to gain value from learning how to

00:02:36.220 boost your own confidence and talk with women and just people in general, and then also improve

00:02:41.840 your relationship with the woman that you have in your life right now. So we're going to get into

00:02:46.040 that in just a minute. Want to let you know that after a couple of months of not having our battle

00:02:50.560 planners in, they're finally back in stock. I'm going to talk more about it later, but for now,

00:02:54.480 if you go to order a man.com slash T W B P as in 12 week battle planner, order a man.com slash T W B P.

00:03:03.640 You can pick up our battle planner and inserts. If you're looking for those as well, I've got a lot

00:03:07.460 of emails on that. All right, guys, let me introduce you to David, uh, his name again,

00:03:11.980 David Mason. I hope I'm pronouncing his last name correctly. He told me, but it was a little

00:03:16.240 challenging for me to get, uh, he's a dating coach for men, but I, you know, I even hesitate to use

00:03:21.020 that phrase because it has such a negative connotation. And, and so many of us have outgrown

00:03:26.480 the, the, the pickup artist tactics that so many dating coaches spew, but David's different.

00:03:33.460 You're going to hear that in the podcast. And you're going to see if you watch his videos,

00:03:36.960 that his approach to connecting with women and creating a lot of options, isn't about saying

00:03:41.700 just the right thing or having that one pickup line that won't fail. It's about connection.

00:03:46.540 And he believes it's about how you view and treat yourself. He's got clients all over the world and

00:03:51.660 his philosophical approach to dating for a good time or a lifelong relationship is what separates him

00:03:57.980 from the rest. You'll hear what I mean. David, what's up, man? Great to have you on the podcast.

00:04:03.460 I've been looking forward to this one. Right. Likewise. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

00:04:07.640 I'm not sure that we've had, what would you consider yourself a dating coach? Uh, um,

00:04:13.020 is that what you would say? Or what would you consider yourself?

00:04:15.940 Yeah. I think the official title these days is dating coach.

00:04:18.740 Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure I've had a dating coach on and admittedly, I'll tell you the reason is,

00:04:23.660 is because a lot of it just seems to be kind of gimmicky and hacking. And when I see that kind of stuff,

00:04:33.460 it's not about men valuing and appreciating women, but your content, I got to say is a lot different,

00:04:39.320 which is why I reached out to you because it feels like even though you're teaching guys

00:04:42.980 some tactics, some strategy, it feels like there's a genuine appreciation for the opposite sex.

00:04:49.640 Yeah. Um, thank you. I appreciate that. So I'm the last person to talk bad about other people in

00:04:54.280 the industry. I know some people who I really like, then there's some ideas out there that I

00:04:58.900 obviously don't like, but one thing that I like about my approach obviously is that I don't have

00:05:03.920 a lot of resentment towards women. I do understand the struggle that men go through. I do understand

00:05:10.180 why men would get to a position where they're resentful. I completely understand why women

00:05:13.400 would get resentful towards men. It's very easy. I think Jordan Peterson talks a lot about the idea

00:05:17.300 that it's very easy to get resentful towards the idea of life in general, but I understand that

00:05:23.020 there's really bad people. There are men and really bad people that are women. And it's really

00:05:29.920 important, especially in the dating space that we keep a positive attitude because I have zero

00:05:36.720 negative feelings towards any particular group. I just understand, okay, you can find bad apples

00:05:41.480 within any tree, but why on earth? I believe women are, I mean, Jung's entire philosophy is based,

00:05:50.300 was it Jung or Freud? I don't even know. And we do most of the things we do for the appreciation

00:05:54.980 and the validation of women. And I disagree with that because I think we do a lot for ourselves

00:05:59.100 first, but women play such a fundamental role. And it is a bit unfortunate to see there's a lot of

00:06:04.360 people who are really resentful towards it, or it goes into the direction of manipulation,

00:06:09.720 lying and deception. So that's not what we stand for. Yeah. There does seem to be a lot of

00:06:14.400 manipulation and it's interesting. I'm not sure. I'm really curious what you think

00:06:20.220 about has dating and approaching women got harder or has it always been what it is? I mean,

00:06:28.680 obviously there's new technology available that I think from the outside looking in makes it easier,

00:06:32.880 but it seems like a lot of guys really struggle. And I'm not sure with, if it's because of their

00:06:38.960 cultural or social conditioning, or if this has always been the way it is.

00:06:43.620 I think it has gotten more difficult because it's not a skill set that's being taught one and two,

00:06:52.080 there's a bit of a stigma around it. I mean, your great, great grandfather and my great,

00:06:56.980 great grandfather, they probably met our great, great grandmother by approaching her. Granted,

00:07:01.840 you could make an argument that they grew up in a similar social circle, cities were smaller,

00:07:05.580 so they stumbled upon each other by accident. But I think being able to introduce yourself

00:07:09.700 to a member of the human species and see if there is a connection or see if I can make a

00:07:16.700 connection happen, if there's compatibility is a very, very normal thing, but it's a skill set

00:07:22.120 that hasn't been taught. That's really all it is. Yeah. I think a lot of it has to do with

00:07:27.060 intimidation. Guys freak themselves out. I was in the grocery store in the vegetable aisle the other day

00:07:31.780 and there was an attractive woman. And I said something, I don't even know what I said. I said

00:07:36.340 something, but it wasn't scary. I don't understand why it's scary for guys. I think they put women on

00:07:42.100 pedestals. They don't belong. And they freak out when they see a beautiful woman. It's like, just

00:07:46.240 say something funny, say something silly, ask her a question. Hey, what's the difference between

00:07:51.440 that zucchini and that zucchini? Like do something. I don't understand why guys struggle, but I know

00:07:57.820 they do. And that's why this is so important we talk about. I get it though. I completely understand

00:08:02.820 why guys struggle. And by the way, that's good. That's called what we call, that's an opinion

00:08:06.920 opener where you just ask, what do you think about this or that? There's so many different types of

00:08:10.380 openers. The opener in and of itself doesn't matter, but it is scary because the reason we are afraid

00:08:16.920 of it is because there's something called approach anxiety and getting rejected is one of the deepest

00:08:22.520 fears we as human beings have. I'm not a biologist. I'm not an anthropologist, but what I've read

00:08:26.680 so far is over the years is that we as human beings existed in tribes of two to 300,000 people,

00:08:32.700 sorry, two to 300 people around two to 300,000 years ago ish. And getting rejected from the tribe

00:08:39.560 would mean almost certain death. If we would act too far outside of the socially accepted norms,

00:08:45.200 we'd be sent into exile or we'd get killed by the tribal leader, the so-called alpha male, and he'd hit us

00:08:51.020 in the head with a brick in the middle of the night. But if we're being sent into exile,

00:08:55.160 we would lose protection from other men. We'd lose the ability to go hunt with other men.

00:08:59.340 We'd get attacked by other tribes, or at the very least, we'd lose the ability to pass on our genes

00:09:03.940 to other female members of the tribe. So we deeply care about the approval of other people because

00:09:11.500 it's for survival reasons. So it's ingrained in us. It's actually quite normal to fear. Because,

00:09:17.340 I mean, let's take it to an extreme. People who don't care about the opinion of other people at all,

00:09:20.940 they act in manners that aren't conducive to a harmonious societal co-living environment.

00:09:28.200 So there is a balance. Now, most men, they care a little bit too much where it hinders their own

00:09:33.960 free self-expression. And they're not able to introduce themselves. And I think it's always,

00:09:38.680 I always use the word, you got to be able to introduce yourself respectfully and effectively.

00:09:42.000 I almost feel stupid saying the word respectfully all the time because it's, isn't it obvious? Like,

00:09:48.120 do I have to tell somebody like you do it respectfully? No, most of us, we know that

00:09:52.020 inherently. But I say it for two reasons. One, because if you have a rather large audience,

00:09:56.320 or rather, if the message gets out by accident, if a video goes viral to a lot of people,

00:10:01.200 some men don't have the most respectful intentions. So one is to remind them. And second of all,

00:10:06.240 there's a lot of nonsense PC culture. So I have no interest in getting a platform. So I just want

00:10:11.240 to tell people, yeah, no, I do believe in respect. So I have to say, even though I feel almost

00:10:14.560 stupid saying it, because it's so obvious, and I'm not interested in virtue signaling at all,

00:10:18.120 I have to say, as a reminder, yes, this is we really actually care about respect. Does that

00:10:24.240 make sense? Yeah, it does. I agree with you in that there's this movement of, and I call it the

00:10:30.660 zero Fs mentality movement, where everybody's like, I don't care what anybody thinks. And if they don't

00:10:35.460 like me, that's their problem. Like, no, that's your problem. You know, if the right people don't like

00:10:40.320 you, that's your problem. You're not going to get women, you're not going to grow your business,

00:10:44.160 you're not going to pick up new clients. So I think the pendulum has swung really far.

00:10:48.660 I am curious, though, about your statement about respect and being appropriate. The thing that I

00:10:56.160 think about immediately that comes to mind is I go to the gym every day. And I see attractive fit women

00:11:03.120 at the gym. And although I'm not there to pick up women, I think a lot of guys do go to the gym to

00:11:08.780 pick up women. But then you see these movements of these ladies who, and I wouldn't even call it

00:11:14.160 ladylike behavior necessarily, but they'll, they'll, you know, post a video of somebody,

00:11:21.140 a guy like just going to help her pick up weights or to rack away because he's trying,

00:11:26.320 like he's trying to engage. He's trying to, and it's okay. Just be flattered. That's it. Just be

00:11:31.700 flattered. I think. And if you're not interested, cool, not interested, but at least be flattered.

00:11:36.320 Him trying to approach you is, is a compliment at a minimum, uh, as long as it's done appropriately.

00:11:42.180 So how does a guy navigate this culture where, you know, everybody wants to be a victim and

00:11:48.500 everybody thinks that, you know, the slightest little sign of attention is, is, you know,

00:11:53.900 sexual misconduct. It's getting ridiculous. Yeah. I think by picking the people you hang out

00:11:59.500 with, I've seen exactly the types of videos on TikTok and Instagram that you're referring to

00:12:04.300 where a guy looks over for half a second and the camera zooms in on his face. And now everybody's

00:12:08.940 paranoid. Can I not even introduce myself to a lady in the gym? And I always say the gym shouldn't

00:12:13.340 be your primary place to meet women. If you want to find somebody for a relationship,

00:12:16.200 or even you just want to have a good dating life as a man for a period of time, which is an experience

00:12:20.700 I believe a lot of men should go through to eventually find somebody. The gym shouldn't be

00:12:25.200 the primary place, but if you're a man who values the gym, there is a chance that you might meet

00:12:30.580 somebody there. So you should be able to introduce yourself. Now, if you do that, you have to become

00:12:36.520 the social guy in general. You can't just be the guy who only talks to the top 10% of most attractive

00:12:41.600 women because they know you're a creep. Because the definition of a creep is two things. He doesn't

00:12:44.680 accept the no. And second, he's a taker. So if you are able to contribute, and we're not perfect.

00:12:49.840 I'm not saying it's just, you're always contributing more value than you're taking. But in general,

00:12:54.380 you should aim to contribute a little bit more to the environment or society,

00:12:57.980 the microcosm or the macrocosm that you're in, then you're taking out of it. But if you're only

00:13:02.620 talking to the hottest women, it's very clear what the value you're trying to extract from that.

00:13:08.060 So what would be much better is if you just become a social guy, if you want to meet people,

00:13:12.340 then you got to talk to men as well as women. Hey, do you want me to spot you? Bro, would you

00:13:15.540 like me to take a quick video for your Instagram story? And then a strategy that I give guys on how to

00:13:19.800 meet women in the gym, for example, is you can just ask her, excuse me two seconds, if she's in your

00:13:24.100 vicinity and you can kind of like navigate that, not in a creepy way, but if you actually, if she actually

00:13:27.520 happens to be somewhere near you, you can ask her, sorry, would you mind taking a quick video

00:13:31.660 for my Instagram story? Would you mind taking a quick 20 second video so I can check my form later

00:13:35.160 on? That is a nice, very calibrated indirect opener. And then you can throw out one more comment,

00:13:42.840 just crazy times, something actually boring that you shouldn't say at night in a bar and I could

00:13:48.320 because it's almost too boring, but it's effective. And then you see if she's interested in the

00:13:53.260 conversation. And then if she is, you establish a little bit of interaction, you have a bit of a

00:13:57.360 conversation that you can exchange Instagram and then later invite her to the gym. Now, if you use

00:14:01.040 that strategy, you have to use it once with a woman, once with a man, once with a woman, once

00:14:05.720 with a man, because if you only do that to women, nobody likes that. And this is at a tactical level

00:14:10.980 because earlier you were referring to tactics. Tactics and strategies are important because

00:14:14.860 they're just a framework because people are completely lost. Here's something you can do to

00:14:18.720 start a conversation. How do I even navigate things? It gives you a rough structure to orient

00:14:23.580 yourself towards, but then it really comes down to what's my intent. I think intent is going to shine

00:14:30.540 through. I think Gary V talks a lot about that and he's absolutely right. Intent is going to show in

00:14:35.600 the end. And if you're a guy with genuinely good intent to answer your question of like, how should

00:14:41.280 I navigate the society if everything is just sexual misconduct? If your intent is genuinely good,

00:14:46.060 most likely you're going to be fine. Should you still be cautious and careful? Yeah. But your intent

00:14:51.260 is going to win in the end. So within the gym, socialize, become somebody who wants to make other

00:14:55.600 people's lives better simply with just positivity, encouragement, spotting, you know, sometimes a

00:15:00.280 very practical, sometimes at an energetic level, you know, and then I think you're going to be okay

00:15:04.540 if you pick the right people. And if your intent is really, really clear, you know? Yeah. No,

00:15:09.340 that's valuable. I think there's also value. And this goes to what you said about talking to

00:15:13.860 everybody, not just the hottest women, wherever you might be is, you know, if you are at the grocery

00:15:19.580 store, you're at the gym or wherever you might be talking to people and try, like deliberately

00:15:24.820 trying to strike up conversation with people you are not sexually attracted to. Like what a great

00:15:31.180 way to practice because the fear of rejection is no longer there. Like, I don't care if this person

00:15:35.500 is not interested in talking to me, but I am going to try my game a little bit here and see what I've

00:15:39.900 got to see what works, to see what engages, to see what doesn't. I think it's a great way to

00:15:44.840 practice. And like you said, to not be the creep, just be the social guy. The other cool thing about

00:15:50.660 being the social guy is there's all sorts of connections that could take place. Let's get

00:15:55.400 you're talking to an elderly woman at, you know, wherever you happen to be getting your car service

00:16:01.640 for the day. She might have a granddaughter that you might be really interested in. If you don't talk

00:16:06.800 with her, you miss an opportunity. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. And also one of the

00:16:12.640 things, if you've been in personal development probably for a significant amount of time as

00:16:16.240 well in this, you're in it, right? You're in the space of it. And at some point you write down

00:16:20.060 mission statements. And I think it's actually useful. I think I wrote that down maybe 10 years

00:16:25.100 ago or at what point. I was like, I want to help people feel at home in the world. And that's not

00:16:29.660 the only thing. And it's not all encompassing, but it's one thing. And one of the ways to feel at

00:16:33.660 home in the world is to have positive interactions with people. Because if we're only focused on the

00:16:37.220 news, we think people are ridiculously horrible. We forget there's a lot of really good people

00:16:41.480 that are not batshit crazy. There's a lot of really good kind people. Doesn't mean you want

00:16:47.620 them as intimate friends necessarily, because you might not be that aligned on your values or your

00:16:51.760 lifestyle. But there's a lot of really, really good people out there. And we can seek positive

00:16:56.760 interaction points. And it really makes a difference to your mood, whether you just walk through life

00:17:02.020 and you're not engaging with everybody. And same in a bar, nightclub, or in the shopping mall. If you

00:17:06.180 have these fun little interaction points with a lady at the cashier, one little positive 15 second

00:17:10.060 interaction, a little win for her, a little bit of dopamine, a little bit of serotonin for you and

00:17:14.260 her. It's a mutual win-win. And nobody takes anything away from each other. If there's a

00:17:18.740 little lady, can you just have a little fun positive exchange? Obviously, if you go through life,

00:17:23.760 there's going to be people who you'll have negative interactions, but don't have to set clear

00:17:27.420 boundaries. 100%. I'm not delusional. But a lot of the times, there's great opportunities to have nice

00:17:32.940 little interaction points. And it's a skill set. And there's also momentum. How are you supposed to

00:17:37.840 be fluent when you get to the date? How are you supposed to be able to actually establish a

00:17:43.640 connection with a woman in a verbally agile manner if you haven't said a word in the last two and a

00:17:47.760 half hours? Because you've just been in your head. Did I see that when it comes to... Maybe this was

00:17:52.680 you. Maybe this was somebody else that before you go on a date, I think this is to your point here,

00:17:57.580 you should call a friend to be able to get that. Was that you that said that? Call a friend and just

00:18:02.460 I didn't make that idea up. I didn't make that idea up. I learned it from one of my first mentors

00:18:07.380 six years ago, but it's a genius idea, I guess. Yeah. I think the other thing too that I personally

00:18:14.120 struggle with at times is I tend to be more introverted. I think a lot of your clients

00:18:17.760 probably by nature are because they need help in this department. And I can force myself to go out

00:18:23.560 and interact because I know the value of doing it. Sometimes I'm de-energeting. I don't want to go to the

00:18:28.560 concert. I don't want to go to the thing. I don't want to go... I just don't. It's not of interest

00:18:33.560 to me. But I force myself to do it because I know there's a lot of positive benefits that come from

00:18:37.620 it. Are your guys mostly introverted? And if that's the case, how do they deal with this knowing

00:18:45.520 that, hey, I'd like to go out and meet a woman, a long-term partner or a short-term partner.

00:18:51.960 And I know I need to do it, but I'm fighting against it every step of the way.

00:18:57.220 Hmm. Yeah. Most of them, I would say 80% of them at least are introverts, which is interesting

00:19:03.820 because Fernanda, my fiance, she's 98, 99% introverted. And I'm completely the opposite.

00:19:09.840 I'm 99% extroverted. If I work by myself in front of a laptop for two days, I'm deeply sad by the end

00:19:16.560 of day two, if I haven't had a significant amount of social interactions, I get deeply unhappy very

00:19:21.520 quickly, which is not... And everybody needs social contact, by the way. I think I've heard

00:19:27.360 Andrew Huberman talk about the difference between... Do you know the difference between an introvert and

00:19:31.820 extrovert, what the only scientifically documented difference is?

00:19:35.140 I think based on what I've heard is that it's not that they can't be social, it's that the level of

00:19:40.620 energy. So they get their energy when they're out in social environments, and an introvert is more

00:19:48.100 drained or de-energized by that. That's kind of the difference I've heard.

00:19:51.640 And that's the common myth because... Okay. Yeah.

00:19:54.440 That's... I mean, think about it. No matter how introverted the person is, after six days or five

00:19:58.360 days, everybody wants some social contact. Social contact energizes everybody, right? It's only one.

00:20:04.940 So what I... And I'm probably butchering this, but the way Andrew Huberman explained it is

00:20:07.960 introverts get more dopamine from social interactions than extroverts,

00:20:12.760 which is counterintuitive. So they get more in a quick period of time. So they're satiated quicker.

00:20:16.900 So I can be... Invite all of my friends, that male tribe of... They call it high quality male

00:20:22.820 friends. Back in the day that they said, it's a great man. It's a good friend, right? If I can

00:20:26.900 spend time with them for nine hours and I can keep going, after two and a half hours, Fernanda's

00:20:30.060 going to go to her room and she needs to sit there for five minutes. Ah, that was enough. Because she's

00:20:34.220 satiated. Because she gets more dopamine quicker. Everybody needs social contact because that's one of

00:20:39.260 the biggest misunderstandings. There's a brilliant book by Johan Hari called The Real Causes for Anxiety and

00:20:45.080 Depression. And one of the number one factors is the lack of high quality social contact. Everybody,

00:20:49.400 no matter how introverted people think they are and need high quality social contact, just less.

00:20:54.160 That's... I'm taking notes because that's really interesting. And I can see that. I'm like,

00:20:58.580 all right, good. Overwhelmed. That's what I feel, overwhelmed. But I think that has to do with what

00:21:02.580 you're saying, at least on an anecdotal level, that level of dopamine. I'm like, okay, too loud,

00:21:08.080 too many people. I'm good. I've got it. Check it off the list. That makes a lot of sense.

00:21:12.400 And yes, absolutely. And there's an additional component. It's one, it's that they're satiated,

00:21:16.980 they need less. And if people, part of what leads to overwhelm is we live in, we exist in three

00:21:21.920 different zones of comfort. There's the comfort zone. And then if we put ourselves to do something

00:21:25.380 that's a little bit difficult, then we get into the zone of growth or challenge. If we do something

00:21:29.120 that's even more difficult, there's so much adrenaline, cortisol in our brain, we get into the zone of

00:21:33.320 overwhelm, where it far exceeds our level of competence. And a lot of people don't even want to go to bars and

00:21:39.700 clubs. I like it, but I think it's not necessary. Most people come to me, they just want to find a

00:21:43.280 relationship, right? I think most men in general just want to have an amazing relationship. I believe

00:21:47.940 every man should go through a, even if it's just a very short period of time of dating, to explore

00:21:53.240 options, right? Now, some men will say, I only want to have intimacy after marriage, which is

00:21:59.540 perfectly fine, right? I respect that, no problem. But everybody should explore options because

00:22:03.720 otherwise you don't even know what you truly want. And then the people who just want to find a

00:22:08.600 relationship, they do feel overwhelmed when they go to a bar club, because they might not even want

00:22:13.400 to go there. They don't naturally enjoy that environment. And there's a difference between

00:22:16.140 a bar or a club. I get that. A bar is maybe something they can imagine. A club is just completely

00:22:20.340 overwhelming. And it's not necessary to go to bars or clubs at all. Because yeah, you can,

00:22:26.680 some people say, well, the right type of women are not in bars or clubs. That's nonsense. Everybody

00:22:30.140 goes to bars and clubs, right? But it's not necessary to go there. The reason they feel overwhelmed

00:22:35.300 is one, because they're satiated quicker, but also because it exceeds the level of competence

00:22:39.280 because they may not be trained in the ability to navigate a group dynamic. There's four or five

00:22:44.260 people standing in front of me, making people laugh, capturing their intention, then being

00:22:48.220 friendly with three of them and building a connection with the one lady that I'm actually

00:22:51.700 interested in. That may just exceed the level of competence to an extent where they feel

00:22:55.720 overwhelmed. It's just a skill set. Everybody can learn it. It's just absolutely a skill set.

00:23:00.300 I have a friend of mine who used to be a computer programmer, and then he became a magician.

00:23:03.160 And he did street performances in bars for seven years. And so he's still the most brutal nerd

00:23:08.680 at heart, but he's got ridiculous social skills, but purely by force and purely because he trained

00:23:13.980 it, you know? Right. Do you think that expectations play a big part in why so many

00:23:20.680 men struggle, especially as it relates to approaching attractive women? Maybe they're

00:23:24.720 thinking, well, I got to get into the relationship, or this one's going to be the one,

00:23:28.540 and they're trying to like fit everything instead of just going out, asserting themselves properly,

00:23:33.980 and then letting it play out the way it's going to play out.

00:23:37.860 You, what do you mean with expectations towards themselves, towards life, towards women,

00:23:41.660 towards one particular woman?

00:23:43.300 Uh, maybe one particular woman. Sure. Uh, or just the fact of like, I got to go out to the bar.

00:23:48.940 I got to go here. I got to go there because I got to find this woman that I'm going to marry.

00:23:51.580 It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. And so they come across desperate. They come

00:23:58.220 across needy. They come across pushy. And of course, obviously that's a turnoff.

00:24:02.400 Yeah. They place a lot of expectations on themselves. First of all, they think I have

00:24:06.280 to have this perfect thing to say. And while the content of your world obviously matters,

00:24:10.020 because if one of us had entered this podcast and the second word out of one of our mouths would

00:24:14.240 have been an insult. Ooh, one can tremendously shape a relationship, but it's not that you should

00:24:22.180 expect perfection of yourself. And then they obviously place too much emphasis on one particular

00:24:28.520 interaction. So I help people with online dating and real life. Any man should use online dating and

00:24:34.560 real life. Online dating is amazingly efficient. You touch your phone, a beautiful woman appears if you

00:24:38.980 do it the right way, but it's very time efficient because with 15, 20 minutes a day, you can do a lot.

00:24:44.240 But I have a huge passion for being able to meet women in real life, be that in a Starbucks shopping

00:24:48.880 mall at night during the day and be that in the gym. It's a little bit tailored to the context as

00:24:53.200 we spoke about earlier, right? So in the gym, you have to be a little bit more social, a little bit

00:24:56.340 more indirect. Whereas in a shopping mall, if I see somebody, I can just walk up to her and start a

00:25:00.760 conversation. Excuse me two seconds. I saw you. I really like your posture. You have really good

00:25:04.120 style. Wanted to come meet you and then build it from there. But the reason I think I have such a passion

00:25:09.020 for it is you cannot overstate the emotional freedom that comes from being able to start

00:25:14.780 relationships out of nothingness. Even when you're in a relationship later on, knowing that you've

00:25:19.680 gone through a process of, I create options for myself to then choose the right woman from, as

00:25:25.060 opposed to, oh, I just kind of met her, just kind of stumbled into her. You didn't evaluate whether

00:25:29.040 you're aligned on your values. You didn't evaluate whether you're aligned on your personalities,

00:25:33.180 your lifestyles, how you want life to be. You didn't even go through that. Children, not like

00:25:38.700 religious politics. If you're not aligned on those, you will suffer so much. There'll be so

00:25:43.540 much unnecessary conflict. So going through the process of creating a lot of options for yourself,

00:25:48.200 you don't have to have intimacy with all of those options, but you've got to be able to have more

00:25:52.920 women interested in you. And that has to get to the brain. Proof, not promises. Doing that is so good

00:25:59.100 because then when you're in the relationship, you'll really know I didn't settle for this. I chose this

00:26:02.780 person. It was a conscious choice and she will forever treat you differently. And to be honest,

00:26:08.040 I think women should do the same thing. And there's no win-win. There's no win-lose, right? I believe in

00:26:13.100 really, truly having relationships on eye level. We can talk about the idea of leadership in a

00:26:17.080 relationship later on, but women should do the same thing. Everybody should evaluate their options

00:26:22.540 and then choose whoever they consider to be best because most men are in relationships with women,

00:26:28.180 I believe. And they're so afraid of losing her. Now we're all afraid of losing the people we love.

00:26:34.000 That's normal, right? But do I have a deep knowing that I'll be okay? Because when I was with my ex-wife,

00:26:40.440 I was the reason I only married her is because I had so much fear. I just had so much anxiety.

00:26:43.940 I'll never find someone like her. I'll lose her. And then I suffered tremendously for like a lot of

00:26:49.740 like several years because I was in a relationship with somebody who wasn't right for me. She's not a bad

00:26:53.700 person at all, but I was in a relationship with somebody who really wasn't right for me only

00:26:58.100 because I was afraid of losing her. Because Tony Robbins says, we're going to sacrifice our values

00:27:01.380 to meet our needs. And my value might be, I want to be respected. I want to have passion. I want to

00:27:06.220 have intimacy. Pardon me. I want to have freedom in a relationship, but my need is I just want love

00:27:12.500 and connection. And if I don't think I'll ever find someone like her, which is never true because

00:27:17.420 everybody can be replaced, then I'm going to suffer. Marshall Rosenberg, he's the founder of

00:27:23.040 nonviolent communication. He passed away several years ago. He says, any need you have, any

00:27:27.440 psychological need you have can be met independent of any particular person. And so many men get

00:27:32.140 obsessed with this. Exactly what you're saying. This one woman, this one interaction, it has to

00:27:35.840 work out so well with her. Relax. So you should do a lot of, you should have a lot of approaches.

00:27:41.700 You should have a lot of interaction points. You're going to need to meet a lot. You're going to

00:27:44.380 need to meet a lot of people to be able to find somebody that you're compatible with for life

00:27:50.080 for the next coming years, at least, you know? So don't place too much emphasis on the next

00:27:54.160 person because you have to understand if you, let's say you approach 20 women over the course

00:27:58.220 of a night, for example, right? People say, I can't even do one. I know you don't have to do that

00:28:03.820 many, but it's step by step. But what happens if I aim for 20 as opposed to one? It doesn't matter

00:28:07.760 what happens on the individual one. Now, obviously I could do a thousand approaches. And if I do it the

00:28:11.300 wrong way, it's not going to lead me anywhere. But purely statistically, if I'm not fully off,

00:28:19.760 if I'm a somewhat decent man and have a somewhat caring, kind attitude, I will have at least some

00:28:26.800 positive interactions among those 20 that I can build upon. So lowering the expectation,

00:28:32.060 exactly what you're saying for each interaction is going to create way more freedom. And also

00:28:36.420 don't walk over there and say, oh, she's so beautiful. I hope she likes me. No, she's pretty.

00:28:41.020 I hope I like her. Hey man, let me pause the conversation very quickly. I know you're into it.

00:28:46.680 We'll get right back to it. I promise you. I just want to share the great news. I mentioned

00:28:50.320 earlier, the 12 week battle planner is finally back in stock. We've had the store closed for the

00:28:55.700 last several months, but with the new shipment of planners that I received just on Sunday,

00:29:01.320 we're back open. So if you're looking for a powerful strategy for grabbing life by the balls,

00:29:07.100 check out the 12 week battle planner. You might want to talk about how you're going to build or,

00:29:12.720 or do relationships since we're talking about that today into your 12 week battle plan.

00:29:18.700 We've honed this thing. We've refined this thing over the past eight years. It focuses on one

00:29:22.820 quarter at a time, which is short enough to keep you interested and engaged in your plan,

00:29:26.740 but it's long enough to start moving the needle. And we focus only on four areas of your life

00:29:31.680 to maximize your daily, weekly, and monthly goals. So guys, check it out at

00:29:35.700 orderofman.com slash TWBP as in 12 week battle planner, orderofman.com slash TWBP. And again,

00:29:44.740 if you just need an insert for the next quarter, because you've already got the planner, we've got

00:29:47.900 those two. Do it quickly. Cause I think we're going to run out very, very fast. Orderofman.com

00:29:52.500 slash DT TWBP. All right, guys, let's get back to it. David. Yeah. And I, and I think it also

00:30:00.360 takes the awkwardness away from you too, when you don't really care about the outcome. I mean,

00:30:06.280 it's, it's such a weird dichotomy. You do care about the outcome. You do, you want it to be a

00:30:10.620 successful outcome, but I guess if it's not, then you're comfortable with it because you have other

00:30:15.600 options and other plays at hand. Yeah. Because you can attach yourself to the macro outcome,

00:30:20.760 but not to the micro, the macro people say you can't force a relationship. No, you can.

00:30:24.620 You people insist we can force any outcome into existence. Be that my health, I can force a 10

00:30:31.220 kilogram weight loss journey into existence purely by force, right? Obviously with the right strategies,

00:30:36.200 it doesn't take that much force, right? You just increase your protein intake. There's great

00:30:39.780 strategies that can make it a lot easier, but yes, my health, I can force a positive outcome into

00:30:44.700 existence. I can make that happen business. I can make that happen. Social media, whatever, right?

00:30:49.920 All of a sudden with relationships, it's just supposed to happen. No, you can absolutely make a

00:30:54.560 relationship happen. Never with one individual. But if I commit myself to the journey of finding the

00:31:00.080 right person and I'm willing to go through a process of evaluating my options, screening,

00:31:03.660 qualifying, and attracting the right people to me through the use of communication and by improving

00:31:08.000 my confidence a little bit, I can absolutely make that happen. Never with one particular individual

00:31:12.260 though, because luckily we can't control that person's free will. Right. Right. No, that's a good point.

00:31:18.480 So you said something interesting and I'm curious about it because when you said it, I'm like,

00:31:21.880 God, is that true? And you talked about connecting with the brain, right? Which connotates logic. And

00:31:27.800 I think many of us believe whether it's true or not, that women are more susceptible, susceptible is

00:31:33.640 not the right word. Women are more likely to connect on an emotional level versus a logical one is what

00:31:40.160 we hear. And I think the term you use was proof, not promises, which makes sense to me, but isn't it

00:31:45.500 more about the way a woman feels? So for example, rather than being a logical decision, if you're the guy that

00:31:51.080 can make her laugh, you probably have a stronger likelihood of forming at least an early connection

00:31:56.060 with somebody. Yeah, absolutely. Now, the interesting thing is, and I'm well aware that

00:32:02.840 there's a lot of differences between men and women, even though that's a subject, it's a conversation in

00:32:08.760 and of itself. Everybody knows that there's only a few people, well, there's quite a few people who

00:32:14.340 are willing to say it, but even the ones who don't, they know that. They know there's a difference

00:32:18.660 between men and women. They know. Yeah, there's a big difference. And, but there's also similarity,

00:32:23.400 which is interesting. Yes, I believe we as men are more logical, but people like Tony Robbins,

00:32:30.180 they also say most, almost all of our decisions are driven at an emotional level, as logical as we

00:32:35.320 think we are. The reason we're doing it is because we have needs that we're trying to meet. If a need

00:32:40.580 is not being met, that creates certain emotions, right? So more often than not, if the emotion that

00:32:44.940 we're experiencing, anxiety, stress, anger, frustration, doesn't come from a physiological

00:32:48.840 component, sleep, sunlight, exercise, nutrition, then it's more often than not unmet needs. There

00:32:55.440 is signal, right? That I either need to change my perception or my actions. So we as men, we're also

00:32:59.840 emotional. Let's not forget that. And dating is a hugely emotional subject for us as men. But yeah,

00:33:05.200 absolutely. For women, women will decide to go with a man, not because it's logical. No, very, yes,

00:33:10.840 there's certain things that women want, like kindness and respect. Great. But mainstream dating

00:33:15.320 advice is just, just be kind, just be respectful. Yes, that's necessary, but not sufficient. My

00:33:20.040 mother predominantly raised me because my father's a doctor working in Germany, working a lot. So he

00:33:24.880 wasn't the predominant person at home. And my mother said two words, Zyleep, which means she always

00:33:30.340 said that, Zyleep, Zyleep, be kind, be kind, be kind. So I grew up with a lot of feminine energy,

00:33:35.260 which is awesome because I think there's a lot of men these days who are just alpha dude all the

00:33:41.740 time. And like, no, I don't know who said this. I heard it somewhere. I would like to give credit

00:33:46.840 because it doesn't come from me. I don't know who said it first, but it's genius. If you're a full-time

00:33:51.580 tough guy, you're a part-time liar, which is genius because it means we have masculine energy and we

00:33:56.500 have feminine energy. Most men, they need to train their masculine side more because if we train our

00:34:00.940 masculine side more, then we can communicate at the level of emotion because women, yes, they want

00:34:04.520 kindness and respect, but they also want the man who's disagreeable. They basically really want to

00:34:08.500 see that you're not willing to lose her. You need to communicate to the woman that you want her,

00:34:12.400 but that you don't need her. You're never going to say it. Hey, Sarah, by the way, I want you,

00:34:16.120 but I don't need you. You're not going to do that. But that has to be the message. And there's so

00:34:22.660 many ways to do that. One of the ways to simply be able to disagree. Most men can't even disagree

00:34:27.500 when an attractive lady is in front of them because they have such scarcity, but disagreeing in a

00:34:31.960 polite way, not for the sake of disagreeing. But if you actually disagree, it shows an utter

00:34:37.260 willingness to lose her. I'm taking notes. That's where my pauses are coming in. I'm typing notes

00:34:43.620 vigorously here. One of the things that you talked about was, and you kind of scanned over it a little

00:34:48.460 bit, is this vision statement for helping people. Is there some sort of vision statement for finding,

00:34:56.580 attracting, communicating with attractive women, or is that too much? And again, that will be

00:35:05.280 communicated in the way that you approach women. And it comes across as like pushy or desperate.

00:35:13.080 What do you mean by a vision statement? Something you tell them or a mindset that you have for yourself?

00:35:17.360 Well, I'm thinking more along the lines of, and I've heard people say, you know, I want to,

00:35:22.180 I want to quote unquote manifest, you know, this relationship. And I don't know if I totally agree

00:35:27.140 with that term, but I do think we ought to look, be aware of what we want, but I'm not sure I could

00:35:32.960 just like, uh, what, what is, what does that show in the eighties? Uh, it's like weird science where

00:35:39.100 they, you know, build this beautiful woman. You know what I'm talking about? They build this beautiful

00:35:42.500 woman and you know, she's the woman of their dreams. What does that show? I'll have to think about it.

00:35:46.680 I'm not sure we can just create this woman out of thin air, but should we be cognizant of what type

00:35:56.000 of woman we're looking for? What, what not only character traits, but is physical traits something

00:36:02.120 that we should consider as well? Like what is it that we should be looking for at least on the

00:36:06.060 lookout for as we're, we're dating and looking for a partner? Yeah, absolutely. One of the first

00:36:11.720 things that I do with clients and that I recommend to everybody is start aiming and start writing down

00:36:18.080 what are, there's a beautiful book by a guy called, Oh God, I'm going to butcher his name.

00:36:23.460 Jorge, Jorge Bucay or Jorge Bucay. I don't think it exists in English, which it's called the three

00:36:29.960 questions. It exists in Spanish and in German. I believe if it exists in English would be great.

00:36:34.260 Maybe somebody can let people know three, but I can give you a summary, three questions.

00:36:37.360 Who am I? Where am I going? And with whom? Who am I? What do I stand for? What do I love? What do I

00:36:43.880 hate? What do I want people to say about me at my funeral? What must people never say about me at

00:36:48.100 my funeral? If you have nothing to live for, you have nothing to die for really important things.

00:36:52.220 Second, what am I, what are my goals rather? Where am I going? Three months, six months. I don't need

00:36:57.460 to wait for new year's resolutions, but where am I going? Aim high. Les Brown says people don't fail in

00:37:01.480 life because they aim too high and miss, but because they aim too low and hit. And then the third is this is

00:37:06.180 who I am as a man. It starts with you as a man, but here's the problem. A lot of people in personal

00:37:09.280 development nowadays say, just focus on yourself. No, you can do both. You have 112 waking hours

00:37:13.220 available to yourself per week. If you sleep eight hours a night, dating takes a couple,

00:37:16.620 right? You really can focus on yourself and be on your mission as a man and find somebody.

00:37:21.140 You don't need to mental, sorry, can I, can I curse or should I not?

00:37:25.480 No, go. It's just you, man. So whatever, whatever you're going to say, say it. Don't, don't hold back.

00:37:30.860 So you, you can mentally masturbate yourself to sleep for the next five to 10 years about

00:37:35.220 personal development. That's amazing. Oh, I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to improve

00:37:38.060 myself. Yeah. But you can do both. You know, you can, oh, just be the type of man that women

00:37:43.260 would want you to be. And they're going to come. No, it's not going to happen. Trust me. I work with

00:37:46.040 a lot of very wealthy men who are really kind, good-hearted people. And it doesn't just come

00:37:51.320 to them, right? You still have to go and meet women, be that online or real life. You really,

00:37:55.660 really have to take action initially. Yeah. And then, so basically they said, who am I,

00:38:00.180 where am I going and with whom? And so it starts with you, but then it goes with whom,

00:38:04.060 who do I even want? And then you write down physical attributes. And we've been made ashamed

00:38:08.020 in society that we shouldn't have physical preferences. Yeah. Yeah. I should have physical

00:38:11.020 preferences. It's not the only thing that matters. Of course, everybody knows that, but it really does.

00:38:15.380 Because if you don't like looking at your partner, you'll be in trouble.

00:38:18.960 Well, that's the first test, right? I'm physically attracted to this woman, or I am,

00:38:23.820 you know, on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm repulsed by that person. Like that's the first

00:38:28.220 thing that you see. And your first litmus test as to whether or not this is somebody you're even

00:38:32.540 remotely interested in. Yes, exactly. So we shouldn't be ashamed of that. And this is not

00:38:37.060 about telling people how to live their lives, but it's for me, this is what I want. And under no

00:38:41.800 circumstances will I settle for anything less because I know I'm capable of more and that's

00:38:45.920 what I want and that's what I'm going to get. So physical is one, but then it's also values.

00:38:50.280 It starts with values, political, religious, right? Absolutely. If you don't care about either,

00:38:54.300 then you should have somebody who doesn't care either. If you're strong on either side,

00:38:58.020 it's not right or wrong, but the person has to be aligned, right? With different religions,

00:39:01.940 can it work if people have different religions? Yes, but when it comes to raising children,

00:39:06.680 just be aligned. Just find somebody who already has the same values as you because compatibility

00:39:10.700 regarding values means the same. Having compatible personalities does not mean the same.

00:39:16.220 I'm ridiculously extroverted. 80% of my clients are introverts. I work almost only with introverted

00:39:20.400 people. Fernanda is super introverted, which works well. There's no right or wrong. You just got

00:39:25.940 to understand what type of a woman do I want. Do I want somebody who's career driven or do I want

00:39:29.780 somebody who's going to make family a priority? You're rarely going to have both and there's no

00:39:34.520 right or wrong. I'm not interested in telling people what to do, but you got to know for yourself,

00:39:39.240 for your own happiness, who do I want? And most men haven't even had enough experience to be able

00:39:43.480 to make an informed choice. It's guesswork. That doesn't mean you need to be dating forever or

00:39:47.420 date hundreds of people. No, but you got to get some experience to actually understand what it is you

00:39:51.840 want. This exercise really helps in the beginning.

00:39:53.840 So you talk about compatibility. That's a word that gets thrown around a lot. And often, yeah,

00:39:59.220 I think being compatible is important. I want to ask you what compatibility actually means and what

00:40:03.080 it is, because I think sometimes people use it as an excuse for, in the case of men, for being an

00:40:10.400 asshole. And in the case of women, for being bitches. Well, we just weren't compatible. No, you

00:40:15.080 were an asshole. That doesn't mean we weren't compatible. It means that you didn't treat her well,

00:40:20.040 or she didn't treat him well, or, you know, so what is compatibility? Like, what is that actually

00:40:25.540 that we should be looking for?

00:40:27.340 Yeah. I think you're absolutely right with what you're saying that a lot of the times people make

00:40:31.180 excuses for bad behavior and then just blame it on some, some concept of personal development,

00:40:36.120 like compatibility.

00:40:37.300 Right.

00:40:37.640 Right. 100%. Compatibility just means you're aligned. You're aligned on your values or you

00:40:44.320 have matching personalities. And again, alignment and values shouldn't mean more or less the same

00:40:51.340 because your new business partner, your new best male, your male best friends, you agree on most

00:40:57.000 things, core values, not on everything. And you're going to have some disagreements, but they're at a

00:41:00.320 surface level. Really? The people that are closest to you, you agree with, because me and Mike's wife,

00:41:06.140 we had a lot of fundamental disagreements and most, a lot of men have that. You cannot

00:41:12.440 fix, no matter how much couples therapy you do, you'll never cure a lack of compatibility.

00:41:17.800 If one person is on this side of politics, the other person, and I'm like, I'm not really

00:41:21.940 political. I don't want to put myself in either camp because like, I'm not, first of all, I live

00:41:26.180 in Ireland. Right. But in Germany, it's a bit more, yeah, I like to, I like this idea. I like that

00:41:32.440 idea. I don't like to attach myself to either ideology. I have clear preferences.

00:41:36.140 Which I don't need to talk about because it's not about me. It's about helping everybody find

00:41:39.620 what's theirs. But I like to be able to, this idea makes sense. Let's evaluate the idea based

00:41:43.720 on its merits, not the ideology that's attached to it. But anyway, if you're here on this side and

00:41:49.600 she's here on this side, then it's never going to work. You will have so many arguments. It doesn't

00:41:54.520 matter how much couples therapy you do. It doesn't matter how much communication you do. And by the

00:41:58.180 way, a lot of the times when people treat each other badly, for most people who are good

00:42:02.180 people, some people are just bad people. Sometimes when people get like passive aggressive with

00:42:06.920 each other, it's because they have needs in a relationship that aren't being met, which

00:42:10.560 comes from a lack of compatibility. For example, maybe as a man, I would like my partner to take

00:42:16.620 care of herself physically. And I would like a partner who goes to the gym. Now I haven't

00:42:21.600 gone through a process of creating options for myself. So I end up with somebody who is not

00:42:26.080 naturally excited about going to the gym and taking care of herself. And maybe her health

00:42:28.720 habits aren't amazing. Now, are you going to become the tyrant in the relationship?

00:42:32.760 And you can't force her, but you can encourage her in the beginning a little bit and then

00:42:38.280 you should, but that's going to lead to frustration a year, two, three down the line. It really

00:42:42.760 does. So instead you'd be much better off finding somebody who, Fernanda has been going to the

00:42:46.900 gym four or five days a week before I ever met her for many years. So there's never, when

00:42:50.680 I say, let's go to the gym, it's not me forcing her to go to the gym. She's like, yeah, I was

00:42:53.460 going to go anyway. Let's just align on a time of the day where it suits the both of us.

00:42:56.340 So we can go chill and sauna in the pool afterwards. So more often than not, compatibility

00:43:01.880 means you're not right for each other. That being said, a lot of men, they can find a woman

00:43:06.080 who's right for them and still mess it up with communication. This whole dating and relationship

00:43:09.720 thing, like being able to attract, keep the right woman, it's only three things. It's

00:43:12.460 communication, it's your confidence, and it's an understanding of the dynamics, some of which

00:43:16.440 are not that politically correct. It is all for me based in kindness and respect and a

00:43:21.680 relationship on eye level. But the way men and women react to each other isn't necessarily

00:43:28.880 how we're being socially conditioned that we react to each other. Because women sometimes

00:43:33.080 like a really masculine man, a kind and a respectful man, but a man who's also masculine.

00:43:40.980 And everybody has, men and women, we all have masculine and feminine energy. And here's where

00:43:45.940 it gets interesting. Different women want masculinity to a different degree. And that's why there's

00:43:52.060 a beautiful variety, right? But compatibility really means is that, are we right for each

00:43:57.000 other? Values, personality, lifestyles, goals, does that match? It's the number one thing.

00:44:02.200 I'm really glad that you said communication too, because I've heard from a lot of guys who

00:44:05.980 will say, you know, the gym is a great, great example. It's like, oh, she just wasn't taking

00:44:10.720 care of herself. It's like, did you, like, did you talk with her about that? Did you have

00:44:14.860 conversation? Did you encourage her to go to the gym with you? Did, well, no, she just wasn't doing

00:44:18.840 it. It's like, bro, she's not a mind reader. Like, and plus you talk about masculinity, like

00:44:23.340 that should be what's, what we're doing. Like direction it's masculinity is directional, right?

00:44:29.160 So it's, Hey hon, we've been slacking. We need to get going and you follow me. I'm going to lead

00:44:36.340 and you follow me. Like, I'm not an expert at this. I mean, I think most of us probably inherently

00:44:40.620 know this, but yet we fail to communicate because we think she should just do it. And I think women

00:44:47.240 are notorious for this as well. It's like, well, he should have done this. He should have done that.

00:44:50.180 He should have treated me this way. He should have said this. We should have done these things.

00:44:52.500 Like, did you tell him that? No, he should have just known. He doesn't. Nobody knows. Nobody just

00:44:57.520 knows. I promise. If he just knew he would do it and he's not doing it because he doesn't know

00:45:03.000 and vice versa. So you love each other, communicate with each other.

00:45:08.460 Yes. And oftentimes when there's conflict, we're not actually arguing about the thing in and of

00:45:11.720 itself or having an ego defense mechanism. Wayne Dyer once said, do you want to be right? Or do

00:45:17.300 you want to be happy? And you'll really have to choose oftentimes, but it's, yeah, it's if she's

00:45:24.500 really against it, right. If she's really doesn't want to go well, then at some point it's just like,

00:45:28.640 yeah, just move on. Most people, this is a blanket statement that I'm going to make,

00:45:31.740 which I just know in my soul that it's true. Most, I would say at least 50% of men who are

00:45:37.920 in relationships. And again, I don't know the numbers, make it 30%, 50 or 80. I don't care.

00:45:42.480 A significant amount of men would be a million times happier in their life if they just ended

00:45:47.720 the relationship with the woman they're in right now and they found somebody else.

00:45:50.700 Be that 30% or 50% or 80%, I don't know the number. There are millions of people in the US,

00:45:56.720 let's take the US for an example, who are in relationships right now where the greatest source

00:46:00.640 of unhappiness is their intimate partner. I know that in my soul, that to be true.

00:46:06.500 The exception I take on that one is if you're already married. And especially if you have

00:46:11.400 children, I'm not saying that you should continue in that relationship. I'm saying there's a heavier

00:46:15.640 weight to that before you say, Hey, this isn't working. I'm not compatible. Like there's just,

00:46:19.780 there's more to it than that.

00:46:21.380 I agree. This is a really, I'm glad you brought that up and maybe, maybe let's have a, let's have

00:46:26.080 a little bit of a discourse around that because I think this is super interesting because I want,

00:46:30.300 I'm the last person to say to just, just end it. No, you should try. If you're, if you're seven

00:46:36.080 years into a relationship, you have a two-year-old son, you got a house again. I'm not saying, well,

00:46:40.240 they listened to the podcast. Well, I guess this is it. See you later, honey.

00:46:47.100 Well, they might, they might say, well, David said I could leave. Like things aren't good and

00:46:50.740 we're all uncomfortable. And you know, I'm going to, I'm going to bail on the family. It's like,

00:46:54.440 no, that's not, that's not what he said. Listen for context.

00:46:58.520 There's other people who are way more important in this life that you should listen to than me,

00:47:04.280 but no, you should put a lot of effort and thinking into it. For example, it depends on how far

00:47:09.000 you're into the relationship. If you're one year into the relationship, you're not going to try as

00:47:12.040 much. You might try one or two months of fixing it. If you're seven years into the relationship,

00:47:16.140 you should try couples therapy, relationship, like whatever, right? Whatever, try something,

00:47:21.780 but in your mind, no, I never owe any person the rest of my life. You should really try a lot,

00:47:27.060 really try a lot to make it work because for some they should. And again, I'm not saying that I'm

00:47:33.140 saying it could be 30%, could be 70%. You should try to make it work first, but here's the problem.

00:47:37.500 So this argument that let's stay together for the sake of the children, I believe is responsible

00:47:42.880 for men to kill themselves, at least in part, not only obviously, and or women suffering, right?

00:47:48.940 Suffering and really, really bad stuff happening because the, and I'm willing to change my mind

00:47:54.080 on this. If I hear really good arguments against it, I just haven't to this day. I just think there's

00:47:58.900 people like Jordan Peterson, who I respect so much, I think who's such a legend, right? In so many

00:48:04.600 different ways. Huge respect. One thing where I do disagree with him a little bit is when he says,

00:48:12.400 yeah, and maybe I misunderstood, right? And he would intellectually just like, you know,

00:48:18.620 put me on the mat immediately, right? But you're married now and that's why you have to stay

00:48:25.340 together because you're locked in and you can't run away. No, the reason you stick with somebody is

00:48:28.820 not because you take choice away. The second you take choice away, you take joy away, I believe.

00:48:34.220 Yeah. Joy comes from gratitude. Yeah. Joy comes from surprise, but joy also comes from choice.

00:48:38.840 In me feeling like I have authority and agency to choose my situation, not because of a contract,

00:48:42.880 I have to stick with this forever. I think people should be able to change their mind

00:48:46.320 because also this coming back to this argument for the children, really? If you really dislike your

00:48:51.940 partner and you really have tried, let's say you're seven years together and you try for a whole year to

00:48:55.860 make it work. And you're now not, you're number eight and it's not getting any better because

00:48:59.400 you're not aligned on your values and you never figured that out seven years ago. And it takes

00:49:03.920 you time to figure it out. It was with me and my ex-wife, the same thing. Do your children really

00:49:09.260 want to see a half depressed, passive aggressive father? Because trust me, your psychosomatic

00:49:14.440 symptoms will come through or somatic psychosomatic. Like it will manifest in your body. It will manifest

00:49:19.100 in the way you treat your children. It is impossible not to, you can try to be the most loving

00:49:24.260 father. Here's the problem. Your children will emulate you at some point. Not only do your

00:49:29.560 children learn from what you say to them, but they copy your behavior. And you're setting the example

00:49:34.500 that it's okay to go through life half depressed because you will be half depressed. Even if you're

00:49:39.220 really fulfilled in your job, if you're not happy in your intimate relationship, you cannot be truly

00:49:43.380 fully happy. And your children will emulate you. I do not for a second buy this. And I think, look,

00:49:50.620 it's the ideal scenario. Of course, mother, father who love each other, stay together. Children,

00:49:55.200 I believe 100% we can say, I think the data suggests very clearly that it's the best. 100%.

00:49:59.500 But a close second is father lives here. Mother lives five, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever down

00:50:04.900 the road. They're both actively involved in the child's life, but they don't live together.

00:50:08.920 Because if you, as a child, witness your parents, not be, children have a sensor for it.

00:50:14.340 They feel when mommy and daddy are intense, no matter how much they're trying to hide it,

00:50:17.820 depending on the age, right? This argument to me doesn't hold. I think you should absolutely try

00:50:22.880 to make it work 100%. But also everybody gets to decide for how long. If I'm 15 years into the

00:50:30.000 relationship, try it for a year and a half. But if it doesn't work, if you're 45 years old,

00:50:35.160 I have seen so many people, including really close relatives of mine, were significantly and deeply

00:50:41.000 unhappy for the first 45, 50 years of their life. Then they ended a marriage and the happiest year

00:50:46.520 started when they were 40, 50 years of age because they allowed themselves to leave it. And it was

00:50:50.800 better for the children. Is it still hard for the children? Do children need a ridiculous amount

00:50:55.080 of support through that time? Yes. But I believe it is much worse to stay together. It's my opinion.

00:51:01.040 I may be completely wrong with that. What do you think?

00:51:03.260 I think we're pretty aligned. I tend to gravitate more, I think, than you do based on what you said

00:51:08.900 towards, no, you really need to put more effort into it. You really need to do everything that you can

00:51:14.840 to make sure that, uh, you can, you can maintain the relationship. And, you know, part of that

00:51:19.800 admittedly might be because I have, I'm going, I'm actually in the middle of a divorce right now.

00:51:23.820 So it might, it might be that my bias is no, like we need to stay and work on this. Um,

00:51:29.440 but it's also because I, I think that culturally it's more likely that the narrative is to be flippant

00:51:40.620 and casual about your commitments. And so that's where I push against because society and culture

00:51:46.920 says, be happy, be happy, whatever you can do to be happy. Oh, you're not happy. Oh,

00:51:51.100 you made those commitments. It doesn't matter. Be happy. I don't like that mentality because

00:51:55.280 you're not honoring yourself. You're not honoring your commitments. You're not honoring your word

00:51:59.920 or other people that you made commitments to. So I think the greater risk, at least culturally,

00:52:07.360 where we sit is that people are going to bail too soon, not stick around too long. That's my

00:52:13.500 experience. And I, I really think you're, it's very important that you're doing that because this,

00:52:19.760 let's not, let's not have anything substantial anymore at all. That doesn't help anybody either.

00:52:25.000 Right. There's always trends. And then there's a counter trend. I think one of, there's no one way to

00:52:30.480 live life, but a lot of people, not, not all, but a lot of people would be served by saying

00:52:36.060 marriage. And you, do you know, Patrick Ben-David? Yeah, I do. I know. I know. I don't know him

00:52:42.680 personally. Same, same. I don't know him personally, but I've, I've seen his stuff.

00:52:46.720 One of the things he says, and he's obviously super intelligent and ridiculously successful.

00:52:50.620 One thing he says is very interesting. He says me and my wife, we've been married 13 or 15 years,

00:52:54.880 something like that. We take marriage one year at a time. And I think managing expectations is really

00:52:59.640 helpful. I'm not saying that's right for everybody, but when you're 30, 45, 25, and you say,

00:53:06.500 I will be with you forever. That's a disingenuous commitment from the get go for, for some, not for

00:53:13.620 others, because your brain evolves. You will not be the same person 20 years down the line. You don't

00:53:18.780 know what happens. You know, what happens if, is this just so many, I'm totally with you that you

00:53:24.540 should try to make it work. You should really try to put a lot of effort in, but there comes a point.

00:53:28.900 And like, really, you're right. More people should try to make their relationship work.

00:53:33.240 At some point, we just have to allow ourselves to realize, if it doesn't work, I don't have to

00:53:39.600 throw away my entire happiness forever, you know, and I can find somebody else. And because the reason

00:53:46.880 people are, again, like if you didn't screen for compatibility in the beginning, there's still a lot

00:53:51.760 that can be done, right? If there, but if two people really fundamentally aren't aligned and

00:53:56.680 for those people, yeah, just find somebody who you're just more aligned with and you'll probably

00:54:00.600 be a lot happier. Yeah, that makes sense. And especially if you, like you said, if you haven't

00:54:04.540 been around or been together very long, or there's not other commitments, there's, there's not kids in

00:54:08.520 the relationship that, you know, that's a big factor as well. I am curious, like to go back to

00:54:13.720 something we talked about earlier, because I think this is a question in a lot of guys' minds is,

00:54:18.460 you say the gym shouldn't be your primary place to meet people. I agree with that. I think that's,

00:54:24.560 I think there's barriers there that make it harder than it needs to be, you know, and, and that one,

00:54:30.000 that's what makes it a challenge. But it's also a place a lot of people go socially, right? So

00:54:36.500 where, where are the best places to go to meet women, to interact, to be social? What, what are some

00:54:44.020 of the things that you would suggest? Because you were right about the bar and the, in the club.

00:54:47.300 I've said that myself. It's like, ah, I don't want to go there. Like, I don't want to meet

00:54:50.040 those type of women. That's not what I would be interested in, but you, you countered that. So

00:54:54.440 I'm curious about where, where you think a guy should go. Yeah. So one is everybody should just

00:54:58.940 use online dating and get more serious about that. That's one, because that's not, so online dating

00:55:03.840 will never replace in-person contact and in-person socializing. It never will. Right. But it's

00:55:08.860 fantastic. It's a fantastic tool to be able to get dates if you use it well. That's one. There's a lot

00:55:13.580 different apps, get serious about that. That's one. The other thing is you can just go to shopping

00:55:18.180 malls. Where are women in high quantities? They're in gyms, they're in shopping malls,

00:55:23.120 they're in bars and clubs. Right. And I think as a man, if you're a respectful, kind guy,

00:55:27.340 and this may, for a lot of men, this seems so far outside of the reality. I could never

00:55:31.240 introduce myself, approach a woman in a shopping mall. Yeah, you can. If you're a respectful guy,

00:55:35.840 she doesn't want to talk to you. She gets to decide how long she wants to stay in interaction

00:55:39.580 with you. But it's your goddamn job, my apologies, to make the offer. Right. It's like, it's your

00:55:44.700 job to make the offer. You really have to do it. Right. You have to walk over. All you have to do

00:55:48.580 is just utter a couple of sounds. And then, yeah, there's a process of building attraction,

00:55:52.840 but shopping malls are a fantastic place. You can go to Starbucks. You can go to the gym,

00:55:57.520 but whenever here's the difference between the gym and a shopping mall or a gym and a bar club,

00:56:01.580 whenever it's a social circle, where it's more or less the same people all the time,

00:56:05.960 which is true for the gym. It's true for the yoga class. It's true for the bachata salsa class,

00:56:10.340 right? It's your, it's a house party. Your approach has to be more indirect. You do general

00:56:14.680 socializing. And then when you meet somebody, you build it more gradually. Whereas if you approach a

00:56:20.120 woman on the street, in a shopping mall, in a bar club, from the, in the first 20 seconds,

00:56:25.720 she has to understand what your intent is. And then she gets to decide to opt in or opt out.

00:56:31.040 Most guys, they go the pussy way. They try to be friends first and lovers later.

00:56:36.220 Yeah. But John and Mary, it worked for them. It almost never works. It almost,

00:56:39.860 and yeah, but it almost never works very rarely, not never, but almost never let her know what

00:56:44.920 your intent is from the beginning. Excuse me a second. It's really cute. I had to come meet

00:56:47.780 you. My name is David. What's your name? Boom. And then she could, Oh, she could either say,

00:56:51.500 no, thanks. I have a boyfriend, make up a boyfriend, or maybe there's a real one.

00:56:55.260 It's her choice, but let her know what your intention is.

00:57:00.620 Yeah. And I think to go back to what you're saying about masculinity, that's a more

00:57:03.600 masculine approach. Like, what do you want? I want you, I think. So let's see if that's the case

00:57:08.780 and just say it like, just, just say it, just approach it that way. I think that's really

00:57:13.480 powerful. One of the things that I think you, and I think I got this from you or saw a video

00:57:17.920 that you've done on this, uh, that I think highlights this concept of she gets to decide

00:57:23.040 is going for the first kiss. Like it's your job as a man. This is what you say. Correct me if I'm wrong.

00:57:28.220 It's your job as a man to initiate that. And then her job to decide whether or not she,

00:57:34.000 it warms to that approach, but to not go in for the kiss is not a masculine behavior. That's what

00:57:39.840 you want. Go for what you want. Of course, be respectful to her response to it, but that's what

00:57:45.440 we should be doing. That makes a ton of sense to me. Yeah. 100% because, and I've interviewed a lot

00:57:50.900 of women. I've talked to Fernanda about that. Yeah. Like if I like him and he doesn't kiss me on the

00:57:54.000 first date, I don't even know if he liked me or not. Right. And remember for her to want to meet

00:57:57.900 you again for a second and a third or fourth date, which is one of the struggles that men have,

00:58:02.060 they, the women don't want to meet them again for the first sec for the second, third or fourth date

00:58:05.980 because they weren't able to create somebody that they might have compatibility with. They didn't

00:58:09.640 know how to communicate in a way to get her interested. And one of the ways to do that is

00:58:13.680 after an hour, hour and a half, two hours, you go for the kiss, right? You've got to build it

00:58:17.660 gradually. You've got to be very respectful in the way you build things, but you go in for the kiss and a lot of

00:58:22.940 guys, yeah, but what if she isn't ready? And they're genuinely afraid. And I remember that I

00:58:27.080 used to have that too. My heart was beating. My palms were sweating. I had butterflies before I

00:58:32.180 went for the kiss and it was a, it was more difficult than giving a presentation at work.

00:58:37.800 Right. But you do it. And if she turns her head away, then you're just cool. She's like, yeah,

00:58:42.440 no worries. I just wanted to tell you something anyway. And you whisper something about her into her

00:58:45.240 ear about gluten-free cookies or something. Right. And it's just, it's just playful. It's not that

00:58:50.200 big a deal. You have to have the mindset that no matter what happens, can't throw me off my game

00:58:54.000 because I'm a respectful guy and she'll get to decide whether she wants it or not, but you got

00:58:57.700 to make her the offer because if you don't, she'll lose respect for you because she wants to be with

00:59:01.960 a man. If she wasn't, she'd be dating a lesbian. There's the highlight of the, of the podcast right

00:59:06.680 there. I like the other, the other thing I got to say is speaking of compatibility, if I ever had a

00:59:11.720 conversation with a woman about gluten-free cookies, the compatibility is dead. Like that is,

00:59:16.340 that date is dead. It's over that and veganism. It's over. It's done. There's nothing else that

00:59:22.460 we can go from here. Cause I'm actually, I've actually celiac and I've been all my life.

00:59:27.900 Well, that's different. All right. If you've got a medical condition. Okay. But if you're doing it

00:59:32.100 by design or, or because you want to, or something that are a choice, that's strange to me. So, but

00:59:38.140 I'll, I'll make an exception for medical conditions. Um, what, uh, so with dating apps,

00:59:44.920 obviously, you know, there's a stigma associated with it. And I think if you're into hookup culture,

00:59:51.160 like dating apps are rad. Uh, if you're not, you're probably shy, uh, on, on the use of dating apps,

00:59:57.500 but that doesn't sound like it's founded or warranted from your perspective.

01:00:01.360 Not at all complete nonsense. There's so many people who, uh, find relationships through dating

01:00:05.120 apps and people always say, yeah, women, and there's always a difference between dating apps. Yes.

01:00:08.540 The app, the amount of women who go for, to go to Tinder for just a hookup is higher than a

01:00:12.420 bumble or hinge. That being said, the way to collapse any limiting belief is with truth,

01:00:17.660 not with another belief. And the truth is some women go to dating apps just for a hookup.

01:00:23.280 Some women go to dating apps just for a relationship. A lot of women go for relationships

01:00:28.500 who are open to both. Right. And then you might say, yeah, but you have to understand that most

01:00:32.200 women who go to dating apps, the second they meet somebody, my mindset is if she goes on a date with

01:00:37.700 me, she'll lose interest in all the other guys anyway, because in dating, you have to be able to

01:00:41.660 switch between two paradigms. Sorry, I'm going to go on a little tangent, but it's important for guys.

01:00:45.640 You've got to be able to switch between objective reality and understanding, well, objectively my

01:00:49.320 face is maybe six and a half and this is my market value. In a general life context, you want to be

01:00:54.400 very humble. You want to be aware of your mistakes. You want to be aware of your shortcomings because

01:00:57.920 it makes you humble, a good person, and you're going to be able to improve. You have to first

01:01:00.800 recognize where you suck to then be able to improve. The problem is in dating, you need an almost

01:01:04.700 unreasonable degree of confidence that you've got to be able to enter the state of no competition.

01:01:09.040 When I'm on a date, there's no competition. It's playful and I don't 100% believe it. I can still

01:01:13.800 make fun of it. I have a degree of meta level awareness, but there's no competition. Even if

01:01:18.020 she's just going for her own cups, the second she meets me after an hour and a half, she'll either

01:01:22.360 love me or hate me, right? Not because I'm disrespectful, but because I'm going to communicate

01:01:26.320 my opinion in such a polarizing manner, she'll love it or hate it. Most men communicate like

01:01:31.360 lukewarm water. You want to be like Moses part in the Red Sea where some will hate you, some will love

01:01:36.080 you. The greatest insult known to man is she shakes your hand after an hour and a half and she tells

01:01:40.100 you it was nice to meet you and you'll never hear from her again. That's the gray zone. That doesn't

01:01:43.560 help anybody. You want to be kind, you want to be respectful, but you better communicate your

01:01:47.540 personality more effectively. And so the truth is there's a lot of women who go to dating apps just

01:01:52.740 for relationships and some or at least a lot of them who are open to relationships, right?

01:01:56.200 In the US, use Tinder, use Bumble, use Hinge, use Match.com. If you have certain political

01:02:02.480 affiliations, there's some for that side, some for that side. There's some for certain religious

01:02:06.540 ones. Use them. Learn how to present yourself in an effective way. Dating apps are a fantastic

01:02:11.000 place to meet women. Now, you still should, if you're a man, if you want to be able to call

01:02:16.480 yourself a man, you better develop the skillset of being able to meet women in real life also.

01:02:20.620 How can you call yourself a man if you don't? And people say, he just doesn't have the balls.

01:02:24.640 No, no, no. It's not that simple. It's a skillset. And like, I have a lot of friends who are,

01:02:28.280 not a lot, but I have some friends who are psychologists and psychotherapists,

01:02:30.800 and they use a process called progressive desensitization. If we're afraid of something,

01:02:34.220 yes, there's NLP techniques to get rid of phobias, but you can progressively desensitize

01:02:38.700 yourself towards the fear of approaching, right? You can first start saying hi to people and you

01:02:43.780 can ask for directions. You can take one step that's challenging, but not overwhelming, right?

01:02:48.000 You want to challenge somebody, but not overwhelm them. Oh, he just doesn't have the balls. Well,

01:02:52.320 that's a very simplified version that doesn't accurately depict reality. The truth is he hasn't gone

01:02:57.200 through a process of progressive desensitization, which everybody can go through because some

01:03:00.740 men have more fear, some men have less fear, but you better commit yourself to it. Don't just

01:03:05.480 relax a day because by the way, every time you do an approach, that'll help you with your

01:03:09.800 performance on the date later on, because make no mistake, it's performance. It's not about putting

01:03:14.160 on an act. You're still going to be you, but whether you show up in an exciting manner with good energy

01:03:19.640 or not, you can be honest in an attractive way and you can be honest in a disattractive way.

01:03:24.520 Exactly what you were saying earlier. We just weren't compatible. No, you were an asshole.

01:03:27.660 You can be compatible and still nice. Does that make sense?

01:03:31.480 Yeah. Well, and you should be you because you can't fake it forever. You could fake it for a

01:03:37.460 few dates. You could probably even get laid by faking it. But if you want to be in a long-term

01:03:42.240 relationship, like at some point the facade is going to come off and you're going to be able

01:03:47.460 to reveal or have to reveal who you really are. And I want to know who she really is too. I don't want

01:03:53.360 to be put on by a woman who's pretending to be something she's not. So, I mean, this is a sales

01:03:58.040 tactic too, right? Is yes is the best answer. No is actually the second best answer. Like,

01:04:03.260 and I want to qualify and disqualify in sales at least as quickly as I possibly can. I don't want

01:04:08.080 to be in limbo. I don't want to hang out. I don't want to maybe, I don't want to wonder it's yes

01:04:11.980 or it's no. And no allows me to drive on to something else.

01:04:16.220 That's a really beautiful example because you don't want the wrong clients, right? Same with me. I don't

01:04:20.500 want the wrong clients. There's people who come to me and they want to work with me. And I say,

01:04:23.240 no, thank you so much. And they're like, oh, but I have this much money as yeah. No,

01:04:27.740 there's no personality fit, right? Because if we're going to be speaking with each other,

01:04:31.500 I have to respect you as a person. We don't have to become best friends at all, right?

01:04:35.920 But there has to be a degree of compatibility and the people who you're going to make the most

01:04:41.060 amount of money with at some point, the people who are going to make your best friends,

01:04:43.800 the ones who are going to make you feel really alive, that you're going to have the best time with

01:04:46.820 your wife, your girlfriend, you better be aligned. So people say, don't talk about politics and

01:04:52.120 religion on the first date. No, you better. You better. If it's something you care about,

01:04:55.640 you bring that up. Not the whole time. Don't bore her. But for three, four minutes,

01:04:59.240 you can absolutely say, I really dislike this. I really like that. That really works because

01:05:03.780 if you're there and she's there and then you might as well find that I've had dates where after

01:05:10.240 seven minutes, I got up, right? I was like, I don't want to go into too much detail now,

01:05:14.060 but it's like, oh, we realized we had a conflict of compatibility. You know, she was, she believed

01:05:19.740 in certain ideologies and she wasn't the biggest fan of freedom of speech. I, you get what I'm

01:05:24.460 saying, I think. And I realized that after seven minutes and because I made fun of some of the

01:05:29.840 ideology within the first five minutes, because it's something that I really despise. Not that I

01:05:33.820 didn't make fun of the person, but of the idea. I think we got to be able to attack. We got to be

01:05:37.440 always respectful towards people. You never hear me talk bad about people, but ideas. We got to be able

01:05:41.440 to attack the ideas. So I playfully attacked the idea. We realized, oh, we're really not aligned.

01:05:46.500 I immediately switch hat. I was like, okay, this date is over. So we just continue the conversation

01:05:50.220 in a friendly manner. I'm just trying to understand her as a person, because I'm still interested in

01:05:53.780 understanding where she's coming from. We finished our burrito bowl. We shook our hands and I never

01:05:57.820 spoke to her ever again. But you know what's hilarious then? I think a couple of years later,

01:06:01.220 she finds one of my TikTok videos and she goes, I went on a date with that guy and it was terrible.

01:06:04.980 She said, oh, she did. And it wasn't a bad date. It was just, I really told her, I don't like that

01:06:11.980 ideology that you have. And I was fine for me. There wasn't even any outright conflict. It was

01:06:17.560 just, we literally shook our hand at the end. It was like, have a good life. It's like the comment

01:06:22.920 back to that is the feeling was mutual. Yes, exactly. We both did not have a, no, you don't need to get

01:06:29.060 into that. It's not, it's not necessary. I think the issue is a lot of guys tend to believe that

01:06:35.360 it's like a negotiation, you know, like, oh, well, you know, it's a give and take relationship and it's

01:06:41.320 a negotiation. And I'm like, I'm not interested in a negotiation with, with someone I'm intimate

01:06:48.300 with. I'm romantic. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to settle. I don't want to negotiate. I want to

01:06:53.800 find somebody out there who's like you said, aligned with me, who believes in the same thing.

01:06:58.760 Maybe we come at it a different way and that's okay. But like, I'm not going to negotiate with

01:07:03.680 that. It's just not of interest to me. Yeah. And a lot of people talk about

01:07:07.860 compromises. You got to compromise. And people who believe most in compromise are in relationships

01:07:16.860 they shouldn't be in because I don't, yes, you're going to have to compromise to an extent,

01:07:21.100 but people who talk a lot about, you don't have to compromise nearly as much as you think in a

01:07:24.660 relationship. Yes. Dreams require sacrifice. Every sacrifice compromise, of course, a hundred

01:07:29.400 percent, but not nearly as much as you think. You can live an amazing life as a man. You can go to

01:07:34.080 the gym exactly as much as you want. You can do as much work or as little work if you're that fortunate

01:07:39.520 as you, as you choose to. And then you find a woman, not who you can make your slave, where you can be

01:07:46.580 the tyrant and you can fit her into your schedule, but a woman who naturally aligns with the attention

01:07:53.000 you're able to give her. Because some people are going to be able to give her four hours a day.

01:07:56.600 Some men are going to be able to give her five hours a week in the beginning, you know, and there's

01:08:00.680 no right or wrong, but you just better communicate it upfront. And she shouldn't, I wouldn't expect

01:08:05.760 her to compromise on the most important things to her either. It's just, there's a natural degree of

01:08:09.880 compatibilities. Again, as I said to Fernando, I was like, let's go to the gym. Yeah, cool. It's not a

01:08:14.000 compromise for her to go to the gym. She's been doing that all along, you know? Now, are there moments

01:08:18.500 where we're going to compromise? Of course, are there certain things? Yes. But really a lot less

01:08:24.460 than you think. If you're compromising a lot, you're unhappy. And the funny thing is, you know,

01:08:28.760 when people get like, when men or women get passive aggressive, they have unmet needs. It's not that

01:08:35.880 they're bad people oftentimes. It's not just, oh, you're passive aggressive. You should be more

01:08:39.220 grateful. No, no, no. If I don't feel like I can voice my, not even criticism, but my needs to my

01:08:46.080 partner because I'm afraid of losing her. And I have unmet needs in that relationship. And that

01:08:50.780 makes me unhappy because we need to meet our needs that I'm not talking about physical needs. Just

01:08:55.080 I'm talking about psychological needs. Then that will come out in unhappiness in other ways. You

01:09:00.040 know, the people who like the typical example, somebody yells at a barista for putting in the

01:09:03.660 wrong milk or whatever. Yeah. Most of the time, is that wrong? Yes, of course that's wrong. Should

01:09:09.460 you not do that? Of course you shouldn't do that. 100%. That's bad action. That's bad behavior.

01:09:13.000 But sometimes good people act like that when either they're in the wrong state or when their

01:09:19.560 needs aren't being met. Because if you're unhappy, it'll manifest itself in different ways.

01:09:24.820 That's why I always say in the beginning, ask for more than you'll actually want in the relationship

01:09:29.980 because then it'll be easy to scale back. Most men ask for 50% of the freedom and the fulfillment

01:09:35.200 of psychological need they want, 50% of it in the beginning. And then later on, they ask for a

01:09:39.160 little bit more, more, more, more, more, and then it creates conflict. Just in the beginning,

01:09:41.880 say, I'm going to be a difficult person to be with. Let her know. Because like, not because

01:09:47.280 I'm disrespectful. I will treat you like a queen. I'll be so nice. But also, yeah, I don't know.

01:09:52.260 I sing under the shower. I do affirmations. It's like, I do stuff that makes living together.

01:09:57.020 You know, I'm not the tidiest person or whatever, right? Oh, Jordan Peterson. I didn't make my bed.

01:10:01.940 Oh no. You know, it's like, maybe babe, you'll have to make my bed. But you front load that a lot.

01:10:07.520 But she'll realize, my God, there's so much value that comes with this guy. I'm okay with that.

01:10:11.660 But you ask for more freedom than you'll actually need in the relationship because it'll be easier

01:10:16.000 to move it back later than to ask for more later on, by the way. That also applies to the intimate

01:10:21.700 area, by the way. If you as men, if we want something, ask for more in the beginning and

01:10:28.300 never put pressure on her. That's what I'm saying. But ask, suggest way more in the very beginning.

01:10:34.880 All fantasies you have, do it within the first couple of months. It'll be way more difficult

01:10:39.600 to try something crazy seven years down the line than in the beginning. Now, when you're in it,

01:10:46.160 you can absolutely still do that. If you have open and honest conversations, if you can really make

01:10:49.940 her feel like a queen, if you can let her embrace her feminine nature because you're and you're

01:10:53.920 masculine, then she'll be very open to trying a lot of things, right? And then obviously you see and

01:10:57.960 you'll find common ground. The easiest hack is just try a lot of things in the beginning. She'll realize,

01:11:02.220 okay. And then you can just go back to just doing the regular stuff. But if you're just doing the

01:11:06.820 regular stuff and then you want to try some things, it'll be a lot more difficult to do that later on

01:11:12.240 if you haven't done so in the beginning. Plus, she'll probably say yes and then you win. So

01:11:16.880 it's fine. We just make a bigger deal of things than we ought to. I think that's why we get in our

01:11:24.540 heads, right? We get in our heads about, oh, what if she says this or what if she does that or what if

01:11:27.980 she dumps me? What if she doesn't, bro? Like what if that woman that you see is waiting for

01:11:34.140 somebody like you, you know, or you have a fantasy, let's say in the intimacy area and you

01:11:39.600 communicate with her and she's like, actually, that sounds fun. I would like to do this. And

01:11:43.220 she takes it even a step further. Like what if that was the outcome because you opened your mouth and

01:11:48.400 shared what was on your mind? Yeah, exactly. Well, brother, I got to tell you, I really enjoy

01:11:52.940 actually watching. I enjoy your videos on Instagram is where I see them mostly. And I

01:11:56.760 enjoy watching you and your fiance. It seems like you guys have a really cool relationship. I like

01:12:00.600 watching you to interact. And not only that, but it's all the information I've seen is super helpful.

01:12:06.320 It's not gimmicky. It's not hacky. It's not manipulative or taking advantage of women. I can

01:12:11.200 see that there's a genuine level of respect for women, which I certainly appreciate. And I would like

01:12:16.680 you to tell the guys where to go. So if they want some advice and want some tips, potentially even hire

01:12:22.420 you as a client of yours, let them know where to go. Yeah. First of all, thank you so much,

01:12:27.880 man. Really, really enjoyed that and looking forward to having further conversations. Thank

01:12:31.280 you so much. Definitely. Yeah. If people want, they can just apply for a free initial consultation

01:12:35.040 call. We have a link on Instagram, there's Spotify videos, there's TikTok videos, there's YouTube

01:12:39.600 videos. In a free initial call, we'll look at their situation and we'll see if and how that makes

01:12:45.280 sense to work together. We put out a lot of content on Instagram reels, a lot of long form content on

01:12:50.140 YouTube because I really like making long form content because it's one of my passions. So

01:12:56.060 there's some videos where I'm in the German Alps where I talk about masculinity and I go on a 28

01:13:00.480 minute rant or something. Instagram videos might get a couple of million views. The YouTube videos

01:13:06.400 might get a couple of hundred views, but that's where my real passion lies because there's so much

01:13:10.200 in it. I really, really think this is such an important area because there's so much unnecessary

01:13:15.620 suffering, right? And life can be, life can be so cool if you, if you have better relationships,

01:13:20.540 you know? So man, thank you so much. That was really a lot of fun.

01:13:23.540 Awesome. Yeah. We'll sync everything up so the guys know where to go, but again, appreciate you.

01:13:28.460 Let's stay in touch. Let's keep the conversations going. I know it's going to serve a lot of men who

01:13:31.780 listen in our, in our community. So thanks David. Appreciate it.

01:13:34.660 Thank you so much, Ryan. Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with David Mason.

01:13:40.680 Hope you enjoyed that one. Again, I hope it applies to you whether or not you're single

01:13:44.760 or you're currently dating somebody or you're married and you have been for some time.

01:13:50.460 Really it's about psychology, right? It's, it's about how you view yourself, how you view women,

01:13:56.600 how you interact, how you build confidence, how you approach, what your energy is. And there's so much

01:14:01.500 good information in here. I think him and I are actually going to try to work a little bit more

01:14:05.380 on, on maybe some other, other either programs or do another podcast. But I think there's more

01:14:13.320 based on the conversations that we've had and I'm excited to get that to you. So I hope you found

01:14:17.380 this one of value. If you did, please share this with a friend. Maybe it's somebody who's in the

01:14:22.440 dating pool right now or in the market or looking for somebody. Please share that with him. And then also

01:14:26.880 just share it on Instagram or Facebook. Just take a screenshot, let people know what you're

01:14:31.340 listening to, uh, connect with David and let's get the word out. That's what it's all about. Get

01:14:37.720 the word out. And then also while you're doing that, make sure you check out the 12 week battle

01:14:41.600 planner at order of man.com slash TWBP order of man.com slash TWBP. All right, guys, we will be

01:14:49.420 back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action, become a man. You are meant

01:14:55.220 to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:15:00.180 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - May 02, 2023

DAVID MEESSEN ｜ Dating Advice for Men in the Modern Era

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