Order of Man - DAVID PISARRA ｜ When Your Marriage Ends, Do This…

00:00:00.140 If you've ever heard the dreaded words, I love you, but I am not in love with you, or

00:00:05.560 more bluntly, I want a divorce, you know what follows is a mental and emotional roller coaster

00:00:11.640 of epic proportion.

00:00:14.140 But what you probably don't know is what to do if that day comes and what your rights

00:00:18.560 might be when it comes to protecting yourself, your money, and your relationship with your

00:00:23.260 children.

00:00:24.080 My guest today, attorney David Basara, has made it his life's work to help men navigate

00:00:29.080 what is likely the most difficult part of his life post-divorce.

00:00:33.440 Today we talk about how to avoid conflict during these times while simultaneously protecting

00:00:38.460 your rights, the emotional manipulation many men face and how to confront it, whether or

00:00:43.860 not the family court system is biased and what to expect when dealing with the courts, also

00:00:49.040 what indicators to be on the lookout for you to recognize if a divorce is pending, and

00:00:55.740 even how AI may change family law.

00:00:59.080 You're a man of action, you live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly

00:01:04.260 chart your own path.

00:01:05.540 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:09.960 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:15.060 This is your life, this is who you are, this is who you will become.

00:01:19.280 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:24.240 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:28.420 I have a lot to talk with you about today, and this is a very important conversation,

00:01:31.880 so I'm going to get right into it.

00:01:34.120 I do want to just very briefly mention, I got an email from Montana Knife Company just

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00:02:42.360 do.

00:02:43.160 All right, because I have so much to talk with you about, I want to jump into it.

00:02:46.200 My guest, his name is David Pissara.

00:02:47.880 He is a straight shooting attorney.

00:02:50.440 I think some of the things you're going to agree with, and some of the things you may

00:02:53.140 not, we didn't even agree on all things.

00:02:56.020 And one of my goals is to have really good conversations, but like any conversation,

00:03:01.120 no two people are always going to agree.

00:03:03.400 So see what you think.

00:03:05.100 And maybe you agree with me or him or somewhere in between or neither.

00:03:09.920 But he's an author.

00:03:10.760 He's a men's advocate.

00:03:12.400 He's spent the last 20 years helping men navigate these rough waters of divorce and custody battles.

00:03:19.900 And he knows firsthand how to overcome the overwhelm that the system can feel like.

00:03:26.240 And he's made it his mission to give men the tools and confidence that they need to stand

00:03:29.780 up for themselves and protect their rights and fight for their kids also.

00:03:33.400 But on top of running his law practice, he's written multiple books.

00:03:36.480 He's hosted shows and podcasts.

00:03:38.780 He's spoken to audiences across the country, and he brings his legal know-how and a lot

00:03:44.140 of real-world perspective as he's seen over the two decades of running this practice to

00:03:49.260 those who feel like maybe the odds are stacked against him.

00:03:52.020 So whether it's in the courtroom or on the pages of his books or behind the mic with his

00:03:57.140 own podcast, Dad's Law School, David is committed to being a voice for men when they need it

00:04:02.680 the most.

00:04:05.840 David, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

00:04:07.760 It's been a long time coming.

00:04:09.000 We tried to make this work earlier in the week, but having technical difficulties.

00:04:13.500 Yeah, thanks, Ryan.

00:04:14.420 It's great to be here.

00:04:15.000 I'm really looking forward to chatting with you.

00:04:16.420 Yeah, I think that the topic of divorce and family law and specifically as it relates to

00:04:21.820 dads because of the movement that we have here, I've talked with so many men who feel like

00:04:29.320 they either don't know their rights, and that's probably a bit of ignorance when it comes

00:04:33.460 to divorce and custody and alimony and child support, or it seems like in a lot of cases

00:04:38.780 they willingly give up some of those rights.

00:04:41.660 Would you say there's a percentage of one or the other?

00:04:44.160 Is it both?

00:04:44.800 What does that look like from your perspective as an attorney?

00:04:47.740 I think a lot of men don't have any idea what they're getting themselves into when they

00:04:51.920 get married.

00:04:52.680 So they don't actually know what their rights are.

00:04:54.800 They pretty much are under the impression like their job is show up reasonably sober,

00:05:00.920 say I do, we're done.

00:05:03.340 And that's generally not enough because women tend to go into these relationships with a

00:05:07.600 much greater understanding of what marriage actually means for them.

00:05:10.700 They have a real deeper, thorough conversation with each other about this.

00:05:15.840 So I think most men don't know what they're doing when they're going into marriage is one

00:05:20.460 part of it.

00:05:21.020 And the other part of it is, is I certainly see a large number of my clients get to the

00:05:25.960 point where they're just emotionally burned out.

00:05:27.780 It's so draining.

00:05:29.000 They can't handle the emotional manipulation.

00:05:31.120 They can't handle the torture.

00:05:33.380 They just are like, I don't care.

00:05:34.980 Just give her whatever she wants.

00:05:36.440 Get me out.

00:05:37.440 I just want to be done.

00:05:39.380 And it's like, that is why women do so much better in divorce courts than men.

00:05:43.240 They handle the emotional discomfort of conflict so much better than men do.

00:05:50.140 And that's one of the reasons why I'm trying to educate more men on A, what your rights

00:05:54.580 are, and B, provide a community for them to actually get the support they need to go through

00:06:00.680 that process.

00:06:01.400 Which, as you know, you've, I'm sure, dealt with more than enough men who are in the middle

00:06:06.500 of divorces.

00:06:07.460 They're an emotional roller coaster.

00:06:09.360 They're going from, I don't care, I'm done, to devastated, depressed.

00:06:15.420 And they need support.

00:06:17.660 It's interesting that you said that women tend to handle, in your experience, the emotional,

00:06:25.040 psychological side of divorce better than men.

00:06:27.620 What do you attribute that to?

00:06:28.900 Does that, does it have to do with women generally having a greater support system or men being

00:06:35.260 isolated?

00:06:36.200 Like, what would that be attributed to?

00:06:38.760 100%.

00:06:39.280 It's the, it's the women talking to each other about what's going on in their life.

00:06:44.520 You know, women are loquacious, loquacious.

00:06:47.360 They, they talk about everything endlessly.

00:06:50.340 And men are laconic.

00:06:52.300 Men are like, I'm fine.

00:06:54.660 It's good.

00:06:56.760 No problem.

00:06:57.600 And they don't talk to each other about this stuff.

00:07:00.660 And they need to.

00:07:01.900 Because the truth of the matter is, men can't talk to women about this stuff.

00:07:06.060 It changes their perception of who you are as a man.

00:07:09.740 And men can and should talk to other men about this stuff.

00:07:14.640 Because in my experience of what I've seen over 27 years, is that when a man opens up to

00:07:20.620 another man about what's really going on, he's not met with belittling, demeaning, badgering.

00:07:27.860 He's met with compassion, understanding, and care.

00:07:31.880 And the reality is that when more men open up about this stuff, more men will be able to

00:07:38.320 open up about this stuff.

00:07:39.640 It's, it's a, an increasing spiral.

00:07:42.340 Well, and, and part of the reason in my experience that's the case is because when a man decides

00:07:47.160 that he's going to go first and share what's on his mind or share a difficult, challenging

00:07:51.280 circumstance, like navigating a divorce, in a way, it gives other men in his circle permission

00:07:57.440 to do the same thing.

00:07:58.620 And that's what I found.

00:07:59.720 That when I open up about the struggles I have, other guys are just more comfortable

00:08:05.840 with sharing the struggles that they have.

00:08:09.080 100%.

00:08:09.600 It's leadership at its most vulnerable.

00:08:12.540 And the truth of the matter is, you know, if you've watched Brene Brown and seen her TED

00:08:17.360 talks, we all know that vulnerability is the way to connection.

00:08:21.280 And, and vulnerability is not weakness.

00:08:23.740 Vulnerability is actually strength.

00:08:25.460 The same way that courage is not being fearless, courage, you actually have to have fear because

00:08:32.260 you have to actually act in spite of the fear to be courageous.

00:08:36.080 Because if it's a fearless act, what's the courage in that?

00:08:40.200 There isn't any.

00:08:41.540 The same thing with being open and honest and a leader.

00:08:44.460 Who are the most effective leaders?

00:08:46.460 The ones who are able to make an emotional connection and spur action as a result of that.

00:08:51.380 So when a man opens up and becomes more vulnerable with the men in his life, he's actually acting

00:08:56.280 as a leader and he's allowing them space to now share what's going on with them.

00:09:00.680 I'm glad you threw that extra little thing in there because I know you listen to the podcast

00:09:04.960 and you've been a follower for some time.

00:09:06.760 And enough guys have been around long enough that they know I, I cringe a little bit when

00:09:12.060 I hear the word vulnerability because I think most people think that vulnerability isn't the end

00:09:17.180 in and of itself.

00:09:18.760 And what you just said is not only is it a way to connection, I agree with that, but a way to spur action.

00:09:25.940 And I think that's the conversation that most people leave out.

00:09:29.380 And they believe that, oh, if I just share my feelings, then people are going to be connected

00:09:33.640 with me.

00:09:34.480 And I haven't found that to be true.

00:09:35.980 I don't think that's a healthy practice.

00:09:38.440 I think more healthy is, hey, here's what's going on.

00:09:41.900 Here's what I'm going to do about it.

00:09:43.320 What ideas do you have for me?

00:09:44.740 I'm going to implement those things and I'm going to be better because I'm willing to

00:09:48.180 share where I might be struggling, not just because I'm struggling alone.

00:09:52.540 Precisely.

00:09:54.300 It's sort of the difference between like spinning your wheels in the mud or throwing in some

00:09:59.620 rocks in there so you can actually get a grip and then take action.

00:10:03.080 And that, and the rocks in this scenario are feedback from other men about I've been through

00:10:08.260 it.

00:10:08.920 Here's the mistakes I made.

00:10:10.620 Here's what I would do differently.

00:10:12.500 Here's how I see you being able to act and move forward.

00:10:15.940 And you can only get that if somebody's actually opened up and been vulnerable.

00:10:21.380 If you actually know what's going on.

00:10:22.740 The biggest mistake that I have seen in my practice is when people withhold information

00:10:29.660 from me, it always bites them in the butt.

00:10:32.740 I have been in court and a guy has not told me about one of his, let's say, bad behaviors.

00:10:41.900 And that's what's going to, she knows about it and it's going to come out in the middle

00:10:47.120 of an argument in front of a judge.

00:10:49.060 I'm going to get blindsided.

00:10:51.100 And then I look like an idiot.

00:10:52.680 My client looks like a scumbag.

00:10:54.440 She looks like a saint.

00:10:56.420 If I know about bad things beforehand, I can get out in front of it.

00:11:00.340 I can get, I can get it out there first.

00:11:03.340 And then I'm being honest and open and vulnerable to the judge.

00:11:06.000 And it's like, oh, you're forthright.

00:11:07.320 I get it.

00:11:07.920 You're just being human.

00:11:08.660 It's no big deal.

00:11:09.540 Fine.

00:11:10.540 But it's when I don't know about stuff.

00:11:12.140 And it's the same thing.

00:11:13.020 If you're holding all of your information to yourself, you're not able to deal with it

00:11:17.720 properly.

00:11:18.140 Yeah, that's a, that's a really good way to look at it.

00:11:22.080 I do want to go back to something you said, maybe we can start from the beginning.

00:11:25.540 You said that women generally have a better idea of what they're getting themselves into

00:11:29.460 when it comes to marriage.

00:11:30.740 And men are less likely to understand the ramifications, a lot of ignorance.

00:11:35.340 This isn't something that men plan for the same way women do when they're little girls

00:11:39.500 about getting married to Prince Charming.

00:11:41.480 It's not a, it's not a thought that we have like women do for potentially decades.

00:11:46.040 So what is it that a man needs to know when he's getting into essentially a contract, if

00:11:52.160 we're talking about a marriage that he needs to be aware of as he moves into this.

00:11:56.560 And then we'll work through that and talk about what he needs to know on the tail end

00:12:00.720 potentially of a divorce.

00:12:02.620 Every marriage is a contract.

00:12:04.900 It's called the marriage contract.

00:12:06.700 And you are now tied to that person financially, emotionally, spiritually.

00:12:13.100 And if you don't understand the economic impact of that, it's going to come back and bite

00:12:18.160 you in the butt.

00:12:20.020 Most men think, oh, I'm just going to be a good provider.

00:12:22.840 I'll get married.

00:12:23.620 She'll be the stay at home mom.

00:12:24.740 We're going to have this lovely house.

00:12:26.300 It's going to be a fabulous experience.

00:12:28.080 Our two to 10 kids are going to get raised.

00:12:29.960 Everything's going to be wonderful.

00:12:31.040 And we'll spend our latter years on a front porch in rocking chairs, remembering all the

00:12:37.200 wonderful times.

00:12:39.460 Very romantic view.

00:12:42.000 Men are very romantic.

00:12:44.420 Women, it's a business deal.

00:12:47.740 They're sizing you up like a lion sizes up a gazelle on the plane.

00:12:55.460 Think about it.

00:12:56.800 When they're dating, what are they doing?

00:12:59.680 They're analyzing, what's your earning capacity?

00:13:02.220 How stable are you?

00:13:03.500 What's your future look like?

00:13:04.920 You're a project.

00:13:05.880 How am I going to fix him?

00:13:06.880 How am I going to change him?

00:13:07.900 What am I going to do to get him better?

00:13:09.820 I don't like his friends.

00:13:10.800 I'm going to find better friends.

00:13:11.840 We're going to renegotiate who his social life is.

00:13:15.400 They're looking at this from a very different perspective because they understand.

00:13:20.260 They have a very limited marketability.

00:13:24.460 As soon as that marketability is taken off the market, they're now damaged goods.

00:13:28.160 So they have to sell for the highest amount on the open market.

00:13:31.600 They have to find the best man possible that they can catch.

00:13:35.400 They're very aware of what your earning capacity is going to be because that's going to directly

00:13:40.100 relate to whether or not they have to work.

00:13:42.460 How are you going to provide for our children?

00:13:43.920 How are you going to buy a house for me?

00:13:47.580 Men don't think about those things.

00:13:50.360 Men barely these days even think like, does she have any marriage skills?

00:13:55.180 What does she actually bring into the table?

00:13:57.160 Is she kind, nurturing, loving, stable?

00:13:59.560 Can she cook?

00:14:00.760 I mean, I know that that's like a very patriarchal 1950s question to be asking.

00:14:05.560 But in the world of economics, it's a factor.

00:14:09.580 I have families who spend way too much money on Uber Eats eating out because nobody knows

00:14:16.380 how to cook.

00:14:17.260 Well, if you have a family, you've got to have the basic economics of a household down.

00:14:22.000 It's going to impact your future.

00:14:23.520 Well, if you have a marriage and you've been paying for everything through Uber Eats and

00:14:29.860 door dashing and going to restaurants, when you get into a divorce situation, that's going

00:14:34.520 to be a factor.

00:14:36.240 What's the lifestyle you guys have been living?

00:14:38.780 Because that's going to impact your child support and your alimony.

00:14:42.320 All of those are things women are taking into consideration that men don't.

00:14:45.780 And it's something that men need to be more aware of.

00:14:48.560 And everybody likes to say, oh, you should get a prenuptial and protect yourself.

00:14:51.940 You have a prenuptial.

00:14:55.220 It's called the family code.

00:14:57.520 It's already been decided for you.

00:15:00.520 You're signing up when you get married to use the family code as your prenuptial agreement

00:15:05.480 if you don't negotiate it beforehand.

00:15:08.500 And that's not a very good code for men because it says half of what you own is hers, half of

00:15:14.860 what you own is hers.

00:15:16.220 Unless it came in before marriage, it's hers.

00:15:21.940 And men need to be aware of what they're actually signing up for.

00:15:25.420 Yeah.

00:15:26.080 And one of the things that I found to be interesting is that this family code that you're talking

00:15:31.560 about, where men will give up half of the wealth that they've amassed together.

00:15:37.540 And I think you can make a case for that.

00:15:40.260 But the issue that I take is that what does the man get out of the relationship?

00:15:48.060 What's the 50% of the relationship that he gets from his ex-wife?

00:15:53.320 So the man's expected to give up this, but I don't feel like in a lot of cases he's going

00:15:57.800 to get anything in exchange for the 50% of their wealth they have to give up.

00:16:02.320 Does that make sense?

00:16:03.200 A hundred percent.

00:16:04.920 And the argument would be that what he's getting is the continued parenting and raising of his

00:16:11.480 children through child support, through her availability to be there for daycare and

00:16:16.660 shelling the kids to school and continue to do that, that you're essentially buying an

00:16:22.240 employee to take care of your children.

00:16:26.220 And that's the deal.

00:16:27.640 Okay.

00:16:28.220 I get that.

00:16:29.020 That's certainly fair in some ways, but it's also not very fair because there's no

00:16:35.420 expectation that she's going to actually go out, change her lifestyle, get a job, and

00:16:41.180 then share the children equally.

00:16:42.840 And that's what I'm working to change.

00:16:44.780 Because if women want equality, equality also means you need to go out and get a job and

00:16:49.320 you need to contribute equally or to the best of your ability to those children also.

00:16:54.060 I mean, isn't that built into the equation, into the factor?

00:17:00.440 So for example, correct me if I'm wrong, and I know state law is different based on whatever

00:17:05.960 state you might be in, but the way that I understand it is that even if there's a woman

00:17:11.440 who, let's say for the past 20 years has been a stay-at-home mom and a homemaker, in the

00:17:18.400 case of divorce, a court will take into consideration that she does have earning potential, and

00:17:26.500 that will be factored into calculations for, in this case, spousal support.

00:17:31.420 Am I correct in that?

00:17:33.220 You are correct.

00:17:34.360 It's factored in.

00:17:35.780 But the question is also, what kind of efforts is she really doing to become self-supporting?

00:17:41.340 Because after a 20-year marriage, okay, your kids are most likely no longer toddlers.

00:17:48.360 They no longer need to have you around eight hours a day or 12 hours a day.

00:17:54.400 What have you done to better yourself?

00:17:58.020 Get a marketable skill.

00:17:59.420 Go get a part-time job that leads to a full-time job.

00:18:02.060 What are you doing to apply for a college degree?

00:18:05.240 What are you doing to improve yourself so that at some point in the future, you are actually

00:18:10.380 self-sufficient?

00:18:12.340 That's where a lot of people fall down.

00:18:14.600 A lot of men make the mistake of not encouraging their wives during the marriage to have a job,

00:18:20.580 to better themselves, to build a business for themselves.

00:18:24.720 And then on the tail end of a divorce, they're going, why is it that I'm the one that has

00:18:29.360 to do all the work?

00:18:30.020 Why does she get to stay at home?

00:18:31.100 Well, you built a stay-at-home mom, and you didn't turn her into a stay-at-home mom who's

00:18:36.360 also self-sufficient.

00:18:37.640 That's the life you created.

00:18:39.340 Precisely.

00:18:39.780 Right.

00:18:39.940 And that's the mistake many men make because they think, well, I'm going to be fair, and

00:18:45.280 then she'll treat me fair, and that's not the reality.

00:18:48.760 Hmm.

00:18:49.700 Yeah, that is really interesting.

00:18:51.180 I want to go back to this idea of hypergamy, which is what you were sharing earlier, the

00:18:56.520 idea that women are looking to marry up or at least marry for potential when it comes

00:19:01.820 to provision, essentially.

00:19:03.540 And I think, I think that's common knowledge.

00:19:07.600 I can't imagine that there's too many people who, if they look at it objectively, would debate

00:19:13.380 and argue that.

00:19:14.460 I think the issue comes down to, it feels cold.

00:19:18.680 And I'm sure you're familiar with Orion Terriban.

00:19:21.400 I had him on the podcast not too long ago, and he has a book called The Value of Others.

00:19:25.880 Are you familiar with his work?

00:19:27.600 I'm not, actually.

00:19:29.220 Oh, it's interesting because some of the conversations that you shared echo a lot of the same sentiments.

00:19:34.380 I think you'd be interested in it.

00:19:36.100 But he talks about what he calls the sexual marketplace.

00:19:40.420 And the sexual marketplace is where these transactions take place.

00:19:43.500 So, for example, a woman might be interested in financial acumen because that's how she

00:19:47.960 measures a potential lifelong partner.

00:19:52.560 So, if that's the case, I want to ask you, what is a man looking for in a woman?

00:19:58.600 Because if a woman is interested in hypergamy, it's safe to assume that men are also looking

00:20:04.180 for something out of the relationship.

00:20:06.080 And if they're not, my next question is, what should they be looking for in order to

00:20:11.600 ensure that there is an exchange of value, to put it coldly, in the marriage?

00:20:19.000 So, I think most men don't actually plot and plan their partnering.

00:20:25.980 I think a lot of times they just go straight off pure hormones of, she's attractive, got

00:20:31.440 a nice body, got a nice smile, treats me nice, this is good enough.

00:20:36.820 And they don't actually do the next phase of what they should be looking for of, what's

00:20:43.760 her relationship with her father?

00:20:45.100 Because that's going to get replicated in our marriage.

00:20:48.360 How does she expect other people to treat her?

00:20:51.800 What are her long-term relationships?

00:20:54.620 If a woman doesn't have long-term friendships, there's a problem.

00:20:59.020 If she can't say, I've known somebody since high school, you're probably running into someone

00:21:06.480 who's got some personality issues.

00:21:08.720 They're probably a little bit too entitled.

00:21:10.780 They're probably a little bit too dismissive.

00:21:12.420 They don't know how to make long-term connections.

00:21:15.080 I learned that lesson a long time ago by a bad business deal.

00:21:18.940 And it's one of the tools I use to judge people.

00:21:21.000 I evaluate someone by, who is your longest friendship?

00:21:27.520 Because that tells me your ability to maintain a long-term relationship.

00:21:31.320 My longest friendship, we go all the way back to diapers.

00:21:35.220 I like to say we were in diapers together.

00:21:37.340 Not the same diaper, thankfully.

00:21:40.160 But that tells you who I am as a person.

00:21:42.300 My law partner I've known since 1992.

00:21:45.640 We met second day of law school and have been friends and partners essentially since then.

00:21:51.740 That tells you what I'm like as a person.

00:21:53.760 I'm very stable.

00:21:54.760 I've got the ability to maintain commitments.

00:21:57.160 I can show up.

00:21:58.020 I can be in a relationship.

00:21:59.040 I can handle conflict.

00:22:00.360 Trust me, 32 years with somebody has not always been in bed of roses.

00:22:03.660 There's moments where I'm like, I'm ready to just jettison this guy.

00:22:07.940 And then I'm like, wait a second.

00:22:09.520 What does he bring to the relationship?

00:22:10.880 What do I bring to the relationship?

00:22:12.580 And men need to do that when they're looking for marriage.

00:22:15.660 When they're looking for someone to build a partnership with.

00:22:18.240 Because marriage is not about that first two years of honeymoon.

00:22:24.060 That's going to fade really quickly if you're looking for a long-term relationship.

00:22:28.040 The two years of screwing like rabbits and everything's wonderful and it's also just delicious.

00:22:34.900 You introduce children to that and bills and home repairs and day-to-day life.

00:22:41.100 All of a sudden, you've got to be able to house somebody who's much more stable.

00:22:45.320 You better be evaluating somebody for the long term if you're going to be getting married.

00:22:48.540 Those are really powerful questions.

00:22:52.240 And I agree.

00:22:53.540 I wish more men did that.

00:22:55.220 And if they did, I think we'd have less catastrophe and maybe you'd have less work.

00:22:59.920 So I'm not sure that would be good for you.

00:23:01.580 But it would be an interesting experiment.

00:23:05.160 I am curious though as we move into a marriage.

00:23:08.160 Because a lot of the guys that I work with and that listen to this podcast, they're already married.

00:23:12.780 They've already made that decision.

00:23:13.940 For better or worse, they've made their decision.

00:23:15.420 And now, with your experience, even if it's just anecdotally, are there some things that you see happening between husband and wife that are predictors of leading to divorce or predictors of staying faithful and loyal and committed to each other?

00:23:32.440 Biggest predictor of divorce is do you guys have the same last name?

00:23:36.960 Really?

00:23:37.440 Second biggest predictor is how do you handle money?

00:23:40.560 Yes.

00:23:40.980 Couples where she has her own last name, she's already halfway out of the relationship.

00:23:47.180 Wow.

00:23:47.720 Interesting.

00:23:48.320 Okay.

00:23:49.260 Or vice versa.

00:23:50.980 Vice versa.

00:23:52.760 That oldest friend of mine, he didn't like his last name.

00:23:57.300 She didn't like her last name.

00:23:59.980 They went and found a different last name for both of them to change to.

00:24:03.700 They found a name that they both liked.

00:24:05.580 And that became their family.

00:24:09.680 But to me, that's an element of commitment to the relationship of we're building something for the long term.

00:24:16.640 That's important.

00:24:18.260 How do you handle money?

00:24:19.440 Money is a big issue because most of the time, that's where people fight over.

00:24:25.120 There's a conflict about how money is being handled.

00:24:27.560 The other big one, and this is one where I think many, many, many men make a huge mistake.

00:24:36.420 They let her dictate his social life entirely.

00:24:41.660 All of a sudden, he's no longer seeing his best friend from high school.

00:24:44.740 All of a sudden, his best buddy from work, I'm too busy.

00:24:48.120 Can't do it.

00:24:49.340 She's making comments about, I don't like that guy.

00:24:52.040 He's a loser.

00:24:52.900 He doesn't dress well.

00:24:54.480 He's rude.

00:24:55.420 He's mean to me.

00:24:56.280 And she's isolating you from your friends in your network.

00:25:00.200 And then all you're doing is socializing only with her friends because she's the one driving the social calendar.

00:25:06.400 That's a problem.

00:25:08.120 And the reason why that's a problem is because she's now leading in the relationship and you're not.

00:25:13.320 And your life isn't good.

00:25:14.840 And then you're going to become unhappy.

00:25:16.660 And then that's going to bleed into the relationship.

00:25:18.980 And you're not actually bringing anything new to the relationship because you have no new experiences without her.

00:25:26.280 You have to have independent fun and friends in order to keep your primary relationship active and alive.

00:25:34.660 I'm not saying exclusively, but you need to have some fresh blood that's coming into the relationship.

00:25:40.980 You know, you go hunting.

00:25:41.780 I imagine that that's a big factor in you going away for, I'm assuming, a weekend or a week of hunting.

00:25:47.760 And you come back.

00:25:48.940 You feel more alive.

00:25:50.220 You're more energized.

00:25:51.240 You've dumped a lot of stress.

00:25:52.980 You've got new experiences to share with whoever your partner is.

00:25:56.580 This was a great thing.

00:25:57.620 It was really funny when Joey did that.

00:25:59.120 This was a really fun moment.

00:26:00.360 This was a really exciting moment.

00:26:01.580 Oh, I can't believe I blew it there.

00:26:03.200 You're bringing new energy to the relationship.

00:26:05.740 But if you spend your entire relationship with somebody and they're with you for all of those same moments, what are you guys talking about?

00:26:14.800 You have to have something new going on.

00:26:17.420 So I think those are the three big things.

00:26:19.740 I was just going to say it's such an interesting point that – and it's a bit ironic.

00:26:24.940 I see where women might isolate their men.

00:26:28.780 Like, I don't like this.

00:26:29.440 I used to play pickup basketball every Tuesday night, and we had a group of us, a group of guys.

00:26:35.660 We'd go to the local church.

00:26:36.820 They had a basketball court inside the church, and we'd go play basketball on Tuesday nights.

00:26:40.860 And there were a couple of friends who, without fail, we'd call them.

00:26:46.100 We'd message them.

00:26:46.740 Hey, come play basketball.

00:26:47.760 They'd say, oh, I need to check with my wife first.

00:26:50.260 And look, I understand coordinating with your wife.

00:26:53.880 I think you should coordinate things with your wife.

00:26:55.860 But you don't need to check with her as to whether or not you can go play basketball with your friends.

00:27:01.900 Just coordinate it.

00:27:03.620 Let her know ahead of time.

00:27:04.600 Hey, babe, Tuesday nights are for me and the boys.

00:27:07.580 I can help you with dinner.

00:27:08.840 I can help around the house.

00:27:10.240 I can help put little Joey to bed.

00:27:12.560 And then that evening, I'm going to go play basketball unless it conflicts with something.

00:27:17.340 So it is interesting.

00:27:18.360 So I've seen where women dictate that, but I've also seen men do it to themselves.

00:27:23.200 And I think in a lot of cases, it's noble.

00:27:26.120 They'll say things like, I'd love to go hunting, but I have to work on this project around the house.

00:27:31.340 Or I'd love to play basketball, but my wife really needs me here because fill in the blank.

00:27:36.540 And it's noble in a lot of ways.

00:27:39.060 But it's ironic because if you don't do it, to your point, it is, and this is what's crazy when women do this,

00:27:45.840 is because it's going to blow up the relationship if she does not encourage him to go out and do his own things in his own way,

00:27:54.000 independent of their relationship.

00:27:56.100 You guys can come back together, but you both need things to do on your own.

00:28:01.180 Absolutely.

00:28:01.920 I think it cuts both ways.

00:28:03.580 I just think women tend to do more of that.

00:28:06.160 And men do the sacrifice thing.

00:28:08.900 I'm going to sacrifice my friendship because I've got to paint the garage.

00:28:11.720 I've got to sacrifice playing basketball tonight because I've got to do something around the house.

00:28:16.640 No, you don't.

00:28:18.320 It's two hours.

00:28:20.260 If something is that important and it's a real crisis, call a plumber.

00:28:24.740 Call the electrician.

00:28:26.520 You're not handling it.

00:28:28.180 Because if it's just a general, like, oh, I've got to paint the garage, let it wait until Sunday.

00:28:32.020 Have the kids do it.

00:28:33.460 Hire the neighborhood teenager.

00:28:35.180 Find a way to outsource it and put the priority on what makes you a really active and engaged partner.

00:28:42.100 Because that's what's going to be important for you in the long run.

00:28:46.960 All right, man.

00:28:47.560 I'm going to step away from the conversation just briefly.

00:28:50.200 I want to share something with you that ties into what we're talking about today.

00:28:53.940 Divorce, as you might know, is often painted as the end of everything.

00:28:58.300 The death of the dreams that you had, the death of a love life, stability probably,

00:29:03.640 but it really doesn't have to be the end.

00:29:06.140 In our new program, Divorce Not Death,

00:29:07.940 I really challenged the belief that life stops when your marriage ends.

00:29:11.880 So many people believe that.

00:29:13.640 Instead, we're going to teach you how to rise from the ashes of heartbreak with clarity,

00:29:17.980 with purpose, with strength, with masculinity.

00:29:21.440 And this is not the end of your story.

00:29:23.000 It wasn't for me.

00:29:23.800 It's the beginning of a new chapter where you reclaim your identity

00:29:26.600 and you rebuild your confidence

00:29:29.160 and you design and build a future that you can be proud of.

00:29:32.460 This course isn't about wallowing in loss.

00:29:35.260 It's about choosing a new life.

00:29:36.960 It's about rediscovering who you are when that title of husband is stripped away.

00:29:44.020 And I and our instructors, we draw from very real world experience,

00:29:49.620 hard fought, practical wisdom,

00:29:51.660 and guide you and other men who are going through divorce through pain

00:29:55.540 and make that into power through grief, turn that into growth.

00:29:58.860 It's a roadmap, proof that when what feels like devastation

00:30:03.860 can actually be a catalyst for the greatest transformation in your life,

00:30:08.960 if you allow it to be.

00:30:10.000 So check it out.

00:30:11.120 We're going to be opening that up in one week.

00:30:13.680 But right now, I need you to drop your email in

00:30:15.420 so I can send you an email when we open up next week.

00:30:19.000 Go to divorcenotdeath.com, divorcenotdeath.com.

00:30:23.360 All right, let me get back to it with David.

00:30:24.540 I think before I interrupted you there a minute ago,

00:30:28.960 you were going to get into something else.

00:30:30.200 So you gave me three predictors of what's going to help a marriage,

00:30:34.980 but it seems like you had more to say before I jumped in with that thought.

00:30:41.320 Well, I've always got more to say

00:30:43.280 because I think that one of the big things for couples is

00:30:46.960 to remember that you should be looking for the long term.

00:30:50.980 You should be building for the long haul,

00:30:53.200 and it's not always going to be easy and fun.

00:30:57.400 There's times where you have to actually slog through things.

00:31:01.080 And that's one of the problems I see today with a lot of women

00:31:04.580 is they're chasing their own happiness,

00:31:07.820 and they're willing to sacrifice the unity of their family for it,

00:31:11.480 whereas men are willing to sacrifice their happiness

00:31:14.460 for the unity of their family.

00:31:17.040 And I think that there's lessons to be learned from both of them.

00:31:19.840 She needs to do less of self-stuff.

00:31:22.660 He needs to do more of it.

00:31:24.520 She needs to do more sacrifice for the family.

00:31:26.760 I know that would not play well with a mostly female audience,

00:31:29.940 but it's the truth.

00:31:31.660 And I think men need to be a little bit more selfish.

00:31:35.040 There needs to be more balance in a relationship

00:31:37.300 because otherwise you're going to end up in divorce court

00:31:42.340 or custody court one way or another,

00:31:44.160 and that's not good for anybody.

00:31:45.960 Yeah, and I think it is, to your point earlier,

00:31:49.260 about finding the type of woman who has the type of dreams that you do,

00:31:55.280 the one who does want to build a family,

00:31:57.020 that does want to grow together,

00:31:59.140 that isn't as selfish as maybe you see.

00:32:02.720 I mean, clearly not every woman is like that, obviously,

00:32:06.840 but I do imagine that with the way that cultural conditioning has existed

00:32:13.900 and evolved over the past 50 to 60 years that you see more and more of that.

00:32:18.360 You see women who are not, women and men, not getting married as early.

00:32:22.720 You see plenty of women who are not interested in having children

00:32:25.940 and they go chase their career for happiness.

00:32:28.040 And then at the end of that career, that career winds down

00:32:31.740 or they're at the end of their good years for having children,

00:32:35.580 there's a lot of regret that these women have.

00:32:38.160 And I feel for them because in a lot of ways,

00:32:41.020 they've been conditioned to believe that pursuing their own happiness

00:32:44.900 is going to lead to something wonderful.

00:32:47.460 And we see it time and time again where so many women are upset

00:32:51.660 that they didn't create the family

00:32:53.480 and they didn't go all in on having children

00:32:56.560 and being there and building the family

00:32:59.020 the way that they are biologically designed to do.

00:33:02.540 100%.

00:33:02.940 And there's two people that are two entities that I blame for that.

00:33:07.160 On the one hand, it's the feminist lobby.

00:33:09.100 I think they've done women a huge disservice

00:33:10.660 by telling them you can have it all.

00:33:12.660 You can't have it all.

00:33:13.860 No one can.

00:33:14.780 It's not possible to have a fabulous career,

00:33:17.040 be super successful,

00:33:18.600 be a feminine mom, stay-at-home mom,

00:33:20.600 perfect mother, take care of the kids.

00:33:22.320 Because you can't do it all.

00:33:24.880 Like the Virginia Slims out of the 70s and 80s was nice,

00:33:28.040 but it's also false.

00:33:29.920 And on the other end of the spectrum, I blame Disney.

00:33:33.400 Because I think Disney sells women this idea

00:33:35.720 that you're a princess and you're going to go find a prince

00:33:38.100 and he's going to give you what you want

00:33:39.500 and you're going to be happily ever after.

00:33:41.960 No.

00:33:43.000 I'm sorry.

00:33:43.680 Life does not work that way.

00:33:45.420 Those are two ends of a spectrum

00:33:46.720 and the vast bulk of reality is in the middle.

00:33:50.440 Life is dirty.

00:33:51.380 It's messy.

00:33:52.140 It's not always comfortable.

00:33:53.700 And if you're going to build a partnership with somebody,

00:33:55.560 you've got to be in it for the long haul.

00:33:57.420 And you have to find somebody who's in it for the long haul,

00:34:00.900 not just sizing you up for the next meal.

00:34:04.560 It's really interesting that you would bring up Disney.

00:34:07.160 My girlfriend and I were just talking about this

00:34:08.980 a day or two ago,

00:34:10.080 that with the way that culture is,

00:34:13.140 and especially when it comes to dating,

00:34:15.240 it's very easy to discard somebody

00:34:19.600 because they're not perfect, right?

00:34:21.700 They don't have everything that you could possibly want.

00:34:24.460 They're great in all the right ways,

00:34:26.320 but they have a few things that don't sit well

00:34:29.300 or that are kind of bothersome,

00:34:30.760 and then people are just discarded.

00:34:32.680 We become such a commodity,

00:34:34.300 especially with dating apps and things like that.

00:34:36.840 And then what ends up happening is

00:34:39.380 you throw away somebody

00:34:40.940 who could have been a very good fit for you

00:34:43.000 because they had a few things that you didn't like

00:34:45.100 but you could live with

00:34:45.960 because you assumed, to your point about Disney,

00:34:49.260 that Prince Charming is out there

00:34:50.820 and one day you're going to live happily ever after

00:34:53.160 and it's going to be exactly perfect all the time

00:34:56.060 what you want

00:34:56.980 and that is not reality

00:34:59.920 and that's going to be a bad day

00:35:01.880 if you think that's going to happen.

00:35:03.000 100%, 100%.

00:35:05.560 And it's, for me, I just see it.

00:35:08.020 I mean, I live in the bubble of Los Angeles

00:35:11.800 where everybody is like looking for perfection all the time.

00:35:15.340 So that's what I'm very much attuned to.

00:35:18.460 And all I see is people

00:35:20.100 who are getting more and more miserable.

00:35:22.800 What I'm seeing in the women around me

00:35:26.700 is they have these unrealistic expectations.

00:35:30.300 You know, it's the famous, you know,

00:35:31.400 give me the six sixes.

00:35:32.540 Six feet, six figures, six inches,

00:35:36.200 something else.

00:35:37.520 And you're talking about like 1% of the population.

00:35:41.900 That's just not realistic.

00:35:44.080 I know guys who are amazing men.

00:35:47.920 They are fabulous fathers.

00:35:49.440 They are good providers.

00:35:51.160 They have one major flaw.

00:35:54.100 They are under 5'5".

00:35:55.840 They can't even get a date on a dating app

00:35:59.940 because they're too short.

00:36:02.540 And I'm like, and I have a friend.

00:36:04.960 She's about 5'11", 6'-ish.

00:36:08.580 She would never date him because he's too short.

00:36:11.320 Now, the fact that he's highly successful as a lawyer,

00:36:14.780 great personality, very nice, very stable,

00:36:18.100 perfect personality to like have a long-term relationship with,

00:36:21.380 none of that matters because he's too short.

00:36:23.180 Okay, well, you're the one who's going to be unhappy and alone

00:36:27.760 and have three cats.

00:36:30.100 Well, I mean, to be fair, men have our preferences too, right?

00:36:33.700 I wouldn't date a woman who's 100 pounds overweight,

00:36:37.060 even if she was a great mother or had, you know,

00:36:40.900 nurturing instincts and was a great supporter and encourager of me, right?

00:36:45.220 So, Ryan, 100%.

00:36:49.380 And I'm going to stop you because there's one major difference.

00:36:53.700 Does she have control over that 100 pounds?

00:36:56.480 Sure, right.

00:36:57.740 All I'm saying, of course.

00:36:59.220 Can she put the foot down and hit the gym?

00:37:01.540 Yeah.

00:37:01.860 There's nothing he can do to change his height.

00:37:05.540 And that's where it's like,

00:37:06.840 are you judging someone based off of fair criteria?

00:37:12.480 Something that they don't have control over,

00:37:16.480 not necessarily a fair thing to judge somebody on.

00:37:20.500 Something they can control tells you who they are as a person.

00:37:23.420 I do think it's fair.

00:37:24.400 I think it's fair to make all sorts of assessments

00:37:27.080 on who you would like to date and who you wouldn't,

00:37:29.560 on both sides of the table.

00:37:30.880 Maybe one guy doesn't like brunettes and he only dates blondes

00:37:35.960 because that's his preference or eye color or body type or, you know, name it.

00:37:43.380 I hear this argument a lot.

00:37:45.640 And what I would say is that for a guy that's, you know, 5'5",

00:37:48.540 like you're talking about, it's the hand we were dealt, you know?

00:37:54.060 And I think if we get wrapped up into that,

00:37:57.120 it becomes an issue because I've seen so many guys get bitter

00:38:00.660 and resentful over it and then they end up shooting themselves in the foot

00:38:05.780 or losing confidence or not giving them an opportunity

00:38:08.180 to actually get into the dating space.

00:38:11.140 I mean, I hear you.

00:38:13.220 Certainly, I mean, I'm a gay man in Los Angeles.

00:38:15.200 Of course, I've, you know, got lots of choices

00:38:17.100 and I can be as picky as everybody else when I want to be.

00:38:19.920 But the reality is that I think there's things that you have to actually judge people on

00:38:25.480 that are valid and are going to have long-term value in a relationship

00:38:28.880 and things that are superficial and that can change.

00:38:32.240 My friend Anne, this month she's a strawberry brunette.

00:38:36.580 Next month she could be a very dark-haired person

00:38:39.840 and the month after that she could go blonde

00:38:41.820 and the month after that she may shave her head just because it's hot.

00:38:44.860 Judging somebody based on something like that's very changeable like hair color,

00:38:51.300 I think you might want to dig a little deeper on.

00:38:54.740 I think where we might land in some agreement is that there's indexing, right?

00:39:01.880 And so we all index certain things more valuable than others.

00:39:05.580 And I agree with what you're saying that if a man has the ability to be a great provider,

00:39:12.140 maybe he's loyal, maybe he's knowledgeable, he's intelligent,

00:39:16.320 maybe he's kind and empathetic, whatever, pick your virtue.

00:39:20.360 Those things should have a higher index.

00:39:23.240 Those should be prioritized.

00:39:24.700 I would agree with that.

00:39:26.040 I just am careful of getting into the debate about not villainizing necessarily,

00:39:33.520 but making it seem as if people are immoral if they have personal preferences in the way people look.

00:39:44.160 And I don't think that's the case.

00:39:45.500 I think everybody has preferences and that's entirely legitimate.

00:39:50.960 Absolutely.

00:39:51.580 And I don't think it's a morality issue.

00:39:53.240 I think it's very much a are you going to use that as an excuse for why you can't get what you want issue.

00:39:58.820 That's fair.

00:39:59.820 I will definitely agree with you on that.

00:40:01.940 Yeah.

00:40:04.860 You're making your bed and then complaining about it.

00:40:07.280 Well, sorry.

00:40:08.240 Like, this is what you signed up for.

00:40:10.060 Yeah.

00:40:10.740 I can get behind that for sure.

00:40:12.840 I'm very much about the taking responsibility.

00:40:16.200 And that's one thing I agree with, right?

00:40:18.680 So if you're making decisions and it's not working out for you and you know that you're making poor decisions,

00:40:26.160 at some point you relinquish your right to complain about the situation you're in because you made the decisions that got you to the position you're in.

00:40:35.880 So make different decisions.

00:40:37.120 I want to pivot into the dreaded moment when there's, you know, you hear the words, I'm not in love with you anymore or I want a divorce or a separation.

00:40:48.980 I'm assuming based on what I've seen that women initiate divorce at a significantly higher rate than when men do.

00:40:57.440 So I want to talk about that.

00:40:59.260 When a man hears those words or faces and confronts that situation, what is his game plan?

00:41:05.520 What is his first course of action and what should he be thinking about as he potentially is moving through these divorce proceedings now?

00:41:13.020 So as I said earlier, women pursue their own happiness at the expense of their family, which is why 70, 80% of divorces are filed by women.

00:41:22.920 They're not happy anymore.

00:41:25.380 He's not making me happy, which is a fallacy.

00:41:30.100 So what they do is they plan and plot and prepare their divorce.

00:41:36.520 Now, they've been ready for this divorce from the time they were dating you.

00:41:40.300 They were planning it all along.

00:41:41.740 They were sizing you up from the get-go.

00:41:44.360 And so now what's happened is over the last two years generally, they've met with two to four different lawyers to educate themselves about what they can expect in a divorce and how to prepare for that, how to make sure that their credit card bills are paid down so that any family debt falls on him.

00:42:03.580 Now, she may be financially responsible for it in the divorce.

00:42:07.560 She may have to, in theory, pay back half of that.

00:42:10.200 But the reality is she's coming into a divorce with zero credit debt, and that's going to impact her ability to go either refinance a home, get a new apartment, puts her in a better financial position.

00:42:22.900 She's going to have thought about how do I want to position myself work-wise, either do I want to not take a promotion so I have a lower income, or do I want to not work at all so that he has to continue to support me once we're post-divorce.

00:42:39.100 So when she's actually made that decision, she's plotted it out, everything's been prepared, he's going to get blindsided.

00:42:46.860 Now, he can get blindsided softly, and by that I mean I want a divorce, you need to move out, and that's what happens.

00:42:55.720 Or he can get blindsided with a two-by-four, and that's the domestic violence restraining order.

00:43:02.680 That is, you're abusive, you're harassing me, I can't take this anymore, go to court, get a restraining order, kick you out of your house, take your kids, get primary custody of the house, get sole custody of the children, take all the money.

00:43:19.320 You're now living in your truck as a man, and you're figuring, what did I do wrong?

00:43:25.100 And the comment I hear all the time is, I never hit her, I don't know why this is happening.

00:43:31.680 It's happening because it's a strategy move, and it's happening because in today's environment, we're not looking at physical violence as the definition necessary for domestic violence restraining order.

00:43:46.200 But you're at the point now where it's domestic abuse.

00:43:50.160 And I'm going to say something here that most people are going to be like, I can't believe you said that.

00:43:56.080 Women are more abusive than men.

00:44:01.020 Men are more violent than women.

00:44:04.560 And by that I mean this.

00:44:05.780 In general, women tend to use their words, and they break men's spirits.

00:44:32.260 To me, that is more abusive.

00:44:36.960 When men get violent, it's a temporary thing.

00:44:40.600 The reality is this.

00:44:42.140 If you and I are in a fight, Ryan, you're bigger than me, you're going to break my arm, break a couple ribs.

00:44:47.760 Truth is this.

00:44:49.620 Six, eight, ten weeks down the road, my arm, my ribs, they're going to have healed.

00:44:54.360 I'm moving on.

00:44:55.760 I'm good.

00:44:56.360 But you destroy my spirit, you break my ego, you take my self-esteem from me, I may never recover from that.

00:45:06.400 Who did more damage?

00:45:08.380 Well, I need to jump in on this one because I don't agree with that.

00:45:12.820 I don't agree that violence towards another person is temporary, especially if it's somebody that you trust, that trusts you.

00:45:21.680 That violence, if you hit a woman, for example, and she's under your care as your wife, that has long-term emotional and psychological damage associated with it.

00:45:35.740 So I want to be really clear that I don't believe that being violent towards your wife is just a temporary thing.

00:45:43.800 Like her bruise will heal or her arm will heal itself.

00:45:48.140 Yes, sure, but also there are long-term psychological ramifications.

00:45:55.140 So I don't think that's a really fair representation of what that is.

00:46:03.100 Okay, I agree with you that there are definitely psychological damages on top of the physical.

00:46:08.940 But when we're talking about this in the sphere of law and society, we don't even address female abuse on men.

00:46:20.900 That's not even a factor in the conversation.

00:46:23.840 All we ever want to talk about is the physical violence.

00:46:26.800 Men are more violent.

00:46:28.000 He breaks things.

00:46:29.820 Okay, I get that.

00:46:32.180 But let's talk, if you want to then say there's psychological damage, then let's talk about psychological damage on both ends.

00:46:37.460 And the reason why that's important is because in the world of family law, these domestic violence restraining orders are destroying families.

00:46:49.080 They're destroying dads' and their children's relationships.

00:46:53.640 They're making men suicidal at an incredible rate.

00:46:58.360 They're destroying them financially, emotionally, and frequently these are guys who are ready to just check out because they've been so financially destroyed.

00:47:09.760 They don't know what to do.

00:47:10.980 They don't know why they did what they did wrong.

00:47:13.580 They don't understand it.

00:47:15.040 They don't understand how they got in this position.

00:47:16.980 And it's just a very summary decision made by a judge on literally whatever somebody wants to write in a declaration because the level of proof is preponderance of evidence.

00:47:29.980 It's the lowest level.

00:47:31.680 It's 50.1%.

00:47:33.600 Is it more likely than not?

00:47:37.740 So I go into court and I say, Your Honor, I need a protection order from Ryan.

00:47:41.240 He yells at me.

00:47:42.100 He's abusive to me.

00:47:43.880 Okay.

00:47:46.980 That's all it takes.

00:47:49.120 It's literally all it takes.

00:47:51.200 How does the court, though, decipher between legit – look, and there's legitimate claims, right?

00:47:57.080 There's – on both sides, I think you can say that.

00:47:59.920 There's legitimacy to some of these allegations.

00:48:03.920 So – and there's ones that aren't legitimate.

00:48:07.020 So how does a court decipher between the two?

00:48:10.380 And I even think to go back to the violence conversation, a court ought to take in the psychological turmoil on both sides, but especially with regards to violence, it's got to be a scary thing to live with an individual who you're afraid of, that they might hurt you or your children.

00:48:28.120 And so there's that toil as well.

00:48:30.780 And it might just be threat of violence, let alone not violence in and of itself.

00:48:34.940 So how does the court actually weigh this and decipher between what is legitimate and what is not?

00:48:43.440 95% of the time, they don't.

00:48:48.460 You've got judges who are looking at the situation, and they have the decision to make.

00:48:54.220 And remember, this is all done in the light of the O.J. Simpson murder of Nicole Brown Simpson.

00:49:01.660 I think he actually did it.

00:49:02.920 That's my opinion.

00:49:04.400 We're moving on.

00:49:05.280 That was a seminal moment in our society.

00:49:08.560 It changed our perception.

00:49:10.440 And what that actually did for judges was tell them, you need to cover your butt.

00:49:16.800 You need to protect the victim, the alleged victim, at all times.

00:49:21.300 And so when a person goes into court and says, I'm the victim, if you're the judge, what are you going to do?

00:49:27.940 Are you going to really spend a whole lot of time trying to delve into figuring out, like, is it really that?

00:49:33.000 Are they just making things up?

00:49:34.200 Are they stretching the truth?

00:49:35.980 Do I really want to protect the dad in this?

00:49:39.380 She's saying he's abusive.

00:49:40.780 She's saying she's scared of him.

00:49:42.620 Whether she is or isn't, do I want to be the one who maybe it's real, and I didn't issue the restraining order, and then something actually happened?

00:49:51.560 Do I want that on my record, let alone my conscience, just my record?

00:49:56.380 No.

00:49:57.500 They're predisposed to CYA.

00:49:59.540 And so as a consequence, when you've got an incredibly low standard of proof necessary, and you've got an environment where judges are concerned about their own reputation,

00:50:08.400 it's very easy for someone to go into court and just get one of these restraining orders that destroys people.

00:50:17.300 And men don't do that.

00:50:20.000 I had two conversations last week with two different guys, back-to-back days.

00:50:26.220 Both men are being extremely abused by their spouses.

00:50:31.040 There is extreme emotional abuse going on.

00:50:33.740 Both of them are demonstrating profound PTSD in my presence.

00:50:39.640 I'm seeing exactly how much PTSD they are suffering from the relationship, not from war, not from ex-military.

00:50:47.900 Neither of them were in the military.

00:50:50.280 And I'm telling them, you need to go into court.

00:50:53.520 We need to draft the restraining order.

00:50:55.180 We have enough information, which I rarely say to men because it's a higher standard in reality.

00:51:01.060 But we have enough.

00:51:02.020 Both of them said the same thing to me.

00:51:05.200 I can't do that.

00:51:07.940 I can't be the first mover.

00:51:09.940 She's the mother of my children.

00:51:12.040 And I'm like, okay, I get it.

00:51:14.140 And it's, again, he is sacrificing himself for the happiness of his family.

00:51:19.820 And it's going to bite him in the butt because, guaranteed, both of these guys are going to get hit with the restraining order.

00:51:26.960 They're going to lose access to their kids.

00:51:28.620 They're going to lose access to their house.

00:51:29.960 They're going to lose access to their tools, their truck, their personal belongings.

00:51:33.860 They're going to call me up in absolute terror.

00:51:37.220 They're going to be crying.

00:51:38.860 They're going to say, I can't believe she's doing this.

00:51:40.840 I can't see my kids.

00:51:41.800 You've got to fix it.

00:51:42.760 And I'm going to have to tell them there's nothing I can do.

00:51:47.660 I told you what to do.

00:51:49.520 You didn't take my advice.

00:51:51.900 This is the consequences of your non-action.

00:51:55.040 Now we have to move forward.

00:51:56.320 This is the world we're living in and that men are faced with.

00:52:02.040 You said you're not suggesting that everybody do that.

00:52:04.920 No.

00:52:05.600 But I am suggesting it for the men who are in that situation.

00:52:08.520 They need to sack up and go do it.

00:52:12.280 And if I don't say that to men and get this message out there, more men are going to get

00:52:19.160 destroyed by these restraining orders.

00:52:20.760 They're going to lose access to their kids.

00:52:22.400 And then they're going to be like, the system is against me.

00:52:24.840 It's a woman's court.

00:52:25.860 I can't win.

00:52:26.660 No.

00:52:27.980 You didn't take the shot when you had the opportunity.

00:52:30.640 And now you're wondering why you lost the game.

00:52:34.240 Well, if you're playing hockey and you don't shoot at the goal and the other team does,

00:52:39.800 they're going to win.

00:52:41.840 It's the same thing.

00:52:43.080 If you've got the cards to play, you need to play them.

00:52:46.320 What would you recommend as standard practice?

00:52:48.700 Because I imagine those cases like, maybe I'm wrong, but I imagine those cases are the

00:52:53.740 minority of divorce proceedings.

00:52:55.860 You know, I imagine, you correct me if I'm wrong, that most of it is relatively civil.

00:53:02.120 Not entirely, but relatively amicable.

00:53:05.600 Hey, you know, we got to split the assets.

00:53:07.820 We got to figure out both parties are going to be advocating in their own best interest.

00:53:11.400 Of course, that doesn't mean it's not amicable or civil.

00:53:16.180 But what would you suggest as best practices if a man is in one of those situations where

00:53:21.540 he's not dealing with potential abuse?

00:53:23.800 He's not dealing with a potential domestic order.

00:53:28.280 And it's something that I think would be more common.

00:53:32.600 So when I'm talking about those cases, that's the end of the spectrum, the 10 to 15 percent

00:53:39.600 top end of the divorce cases, high conflict, lots of problems.

00:53:43.840 The vast bulk of family law, 70, 80 percent, people come to an agreement.

00:53:50.680 They write up an agreement, go to a lawyer, get it tightened up, submit it to a judge.

00:53:56.580 Maybe they're in court one time, possibly twice, and never go back.

00:54:01.180 That's the vast bulk of family law.

00:54:03.320 Then there's this other conflict part where people are in these higher conflict situations.

00:54:10.880 And those are the ones where they absolutely need to be getting a consultation and they

00:54:15.600 need to take action.

00:54:17.360 And if a man is told, here's what you need to do, listen to the person who's telling you.

00:54:23.400 Because I guarantee you, the woman that you were divorcing has met with two or three or

00:54:28.980 four lawyers and she's taking their direction.

00:54:31.960 And if you're in that situation, you need to protect yourself.

00:54:36.320 You wouldn't go into a war zone and not wear a bulletproof vest.

00:54:40.980 Same thing.

00:54:41.820 You need to go in and be protected.

00:54:43.200 And part of that protection is understanding there's times where you have to be the aggressor

00:54:47.880 and you have to recognize that the woman you married is not the woman you're divorcing.

00:54:52.500 This relationship has profoundly changed.

00:54:55.240 You're in a completely different situation.

00:54:57.420 The dynamic is different.

00:54:58.900 And you can no longer treat that relationship and that woman the way that you did because

00:55:04.580 that's what got you where you're at.

00:55:06.020 I've once heard somebody say that once it comes to the point of divorce, it's no longer

00:55:14.320 a marriage.

00:55:15.460 It's now just business decisions.

00:55:17.300 And I think if you look at it like that, at least from where I sit, you're going to make

00:55:21.600 much more prudent decisions.

00:55:24.740 You're going to protect yourself.

00:55:26.300 You're going to advocate for yourself more strongly.

00:55:28.940 You're probably going to hire an attorney.

00:55:31.300 I actually do have a question about that.

00:55:33.160 Should everybody hire an attorney when faced with this, number one?

00:55:37.280 And number two is the question I'm often asked is, should the man leave his house?

00:55:44.480 If she asks him to leave, should he leave?

00:55:47.120 Should he stay?

00:55:48.340 What are the ramifications of both?

00:55:51.700 So the first part, the first question is, should a man hire a lawyer?

00:55:55.560 That's a big question.

00:55:56.720 There's a lot of room there because are you hiring me for a one-time consultation to be

00:56:01.160 like, here's the situation?

00:56:02.280 What am I looking at for alimony, child support?

00:56:04.960 How do I divide assets?

00:56:06.640 Or are you looking to hire me to be your standard bearer?

00:56:09.560 We're going into battle.

00:56:10.520 I'm going to fight all your battles.

00:56:11.580 So there's a lot of range there.

00:56:13.640 And I think that at a minimum, every man should at least go have a paid consultation with a

00:56:19.320 lawyer to get solid advice about what's really going on.

00:56:23.620 And I say paid for a reason.

00:56:26.100 People only value what they pay for.

00:56:28.360 If you're getting a bunch of free advice on the phone for 20 minutes, you're not giving

00:56:33.740 them the full picture, you're not going to get good advice.

00:56:36.440 You need to go spend some time with somebody and actually see eye to eye.

00:56:40.180 Here's the real lay of the land.

00:56:42.200 What are we really facing?

00:56:43.800 Now, to your second question, should a man stay or go?

00:56:49.260 Total coin toss.

00:56:51.120 Completely depends on what's the level of acrimony, what's the level of strategizing that she's

00:56:56.880 doing.

00:56:57.480 Because the longer you stay there, the more likely it is you're going to get hit with

00:57:00.680 the domestic violence restraining order, which then gives her sole legal custody, sole

00:57:05.380 physical custody of the kids.

00:57:07.360 Kicks you out of the house.

00:57:08.280 Now you're at a disadvantage because you haven't had the opportunity to take your belongings

00:57:12.700 and put them someplace.

00:57:14.580 So it's very much a strategy move.

00:57:17.100 You really have to look at what are the players here and what's my real end game going to be?

00:57:22.940 And what is her end game?

00:57:24.660 What is she looking to accomplish?

00:57:26.360 If you're not doing analysis of the opposition, if you're not researching what are their best

00:57:31.820 game plans, you're probably going to be at a disadvantage.

00:57:34.640 Well, David, I know you have some additional resources because there is so much confusion

00:57:39.320 about what is happening.

00:57:42.440 And not only that, you know, I've gone through a divorce and my divorce was fairly amicable

00:57:47.980 and we came to our agreements and that was that, you know, we have the occasional misunderstanding

00:57:52.820 or frustration with each other.

00:57:54.340 But fortunately, it's never been too contentious, overly contentious.

00:57:59.780 But I know a lot of guys are dealing with that and I want them to have the resources

00:58:03.920 they need so they know what to expect.

00:58:06.040 You talk about battle.

00:58:07.900 I've likened it to going to play against another team in football.

00:58:11.800 You always study the game film before you go into that game because you want to know

00:58:15.200 what to expect and what to be prepared for.

00:58:17.840 So you've got some great resources that I want to make sure you have the chance to share

00:58:21.020 because more men need to hear about this stuff.

00:58:23.360 Oh, thank you, Ryan.

00:58:24.120 I appreciate it.

00:58:24.680 I'm sorry you had to go through your divorce, but I'm glad you guys did it as amicably as

00:58:28.580 possible.

00:58:29.540 That's a very important part.

00:58:31.740 I do.

00:58:32.420 I've got my new book is Dad's Child Custody Action Plan.

00:58:36.000 It's designed for dads who are being forced to go to court to get more time with their

00:58:40.180 kids.

00:58:40.900 And it's available at Amazon.

00:58:42.540 It's available at our website, dadslawschool.com.

00:58:46.260 And at dadslawschool.com, we have an online video course series that teaches dads what to

00:58:52.480 say to the judge to get more time with your kids.

00:58:55.460 Because most men go into court and say, I'm a great dad.

00:58:58.380 I love my kids.

00:58:59.100 I want my 50% custody.

00:59:00.960 And you haven't told the judge anything about who you are as a person.

00:59:04.380 And the judge is hearing that from you.

00:59:06.640 And from mom, he's hearing, he's lazy.

00:59:09.060 He's negligent.

00:59:09.700 He doesn't know anything about the kids.

00:59:10.900 He doesn't know their school, their best friend.

00:59:12.560 He doesn't even know their shoe size.

00:59:14.120 And a judge has to make a decision as to who's the better parent.

00:59:18.320 And based on that lack of information from one party and too much information on the other,

00:59:23.680 the judge is going to find against you.

00:59:25.780 So my book, Dad's Child Custody Action Plan, is designed to give dads the tools they need

00:59:30.560 to go into court to fight for their kids.

00:59:32.900 It's very comprehensive in terms of what a judge needs to know about you.

00:59:39.560 We've got a child inventory.

00:59:41.240 It's 123 questions designed to pull the information that you as a father know about your kids so

00:59:47.620 that you can put it in a declaration or an affidavit to the judge so that they can understand

00:59:52.940 who you really are as a man going into this battle for your children.

00:59:57.640 Lots of times people think the first impression they're going to make with the judge is when

01:00:00.920 they walk into court and they put on an uncomfortable suit and tie the tie too tight and go into

01:00:06.520 court and they're trying to make a good impression on the judge.

01:00:09.120 And the reality is you've already made an impression on the judge.

01:00:13.280 You did it by the papers you filed.

01:00:15.600 The judge has a perception of you based on what they've read about you that you wrote to

01:00:19.980 them.

01:00:20.660 And if you don't put enough information in there, the judge already knows you're not that

01:00:25.380 on top of things.

01:00:26.660 And that's why it's important to write a good, solid declaration.

01:00:30.380 And that's what my book, Dad's Child Custody Action Plan is about, is to give dads the

01:00:34.420 tools they need so they can get the time they want and that their kids deserve.

01:00:38.840 David, I appreciate that.

01:00:40.100 We'll make sure we sync everything up so they know where to go.

01:00:42.440 And I appreciate you taking your time and sharing some of this because it is important

01:00:45.220 stuff and I want to make sure men are equipped with the information they need.

01:00:49.120 But before you leave, we're going to move into an exclusive segment for our Iron Council

01:00:54.380 members that have four or five questions they wanted to ask you specifically about their

01:00:58.180 situation.

01:01:00.380 Gentlemen, this is a little bit differently.

01:01:01.900 I'm adding a new segment to each week's podcast and it is exclusively available for the men of

01:01:06.680 our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council.

01:01:09.280 You, as a listener of this podcast, will not lose access to anything that we've ever put

01:01:13.620 out there.

01:01:14.400 But you will, if you're one of our brothers, have the ability to ask your own questions,

01:01:19.340 very specific questions that you have.

01:01:21.360 And I'll include your name and let them know you asked that question from guys like Chris

01:01:25.880 Williamson, Cameron Haynes, Jocka Willink, Tim Tebow, Andy Frisilla, Terry Cruz, Ben Shapiro,

01:01:32.320 all the guys that we've had on the podcast and all the men that we have coming up throughout

01:01:36.260 the end of the year.

01:01:36.900 You will have access to ask your specific questions.

01:01:40.600 And I'm very excited about this new segment.

01:01:42.680 It is exclusive again to the Iron Council, but because it's new, I wanted to pull back

01:01:46.340 the curtain a little bit and share with you two to three questions that some of our Iron

01:01:51.320 Council members had.

01:01:52.360 So you can see the type of questions that are being asked.

01:01:55.020 And also David had some really good answers to share in these questions.

01:01:58.780 I didn't want to not make that available to you.

01:02:01.080 So if you are interested in asking your questions and more importantly, all the accountability

01:02:05.880 available to build your life, head to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

01:02:11.920 That's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

01:02:17.060 So here we go.

01:02:18.300 Like I said, I've got four or five questions.

01:02:21.780 Robbie Leffel, this one's maybe a harder question to ask, but he says, what's the best result

01:02:25.900 you've had in a case involving a high conflict narcissist?

01:02:30.040 And how did you do it?

01:02:31.240 What was the strategy?

01:02:32.420 I know that's super broad, but does anything come to mind there?

01:02:36.360 Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:37.400 My first comment is, is generally you got to understand women are not narcissists.

01:02:42.380 In high conflict divorces and child custody battles, they're borderlines.

01:02:46.080 They're not the narcissist.

01:02:47.500 And you deal with those differently.

01:02:49.800 Generally with a borderline, what you're looking to do is box them in.

01:02:53.880 You need to have your agreement as tight as possible, as specific as possible, because

01:03:00.260 they're going to make their own reality.

01:03:02.180 Borderlines create the own reality.

01:03:04.080 They gaslight people masterfully.

01:03:08.280 We say that every accusation they make is actually an admission.

01:03:12.700 So if they're saying that you're lying, you can pretty much be sure that they're lying.

01:03:16.100 And you have to treat borderlines differently because they're going to constantly come at

01:03:20.700 you.

01:03:21.000 I say borderlines are like the honey badgers of humanity.

01:03:24.320 They just don't care.

01:03:25.680 They don't care about reality.

01:03:27.040 They don't care about judges' orders.

01:03:28.700 They don't care.

01:03:29.420 And so as a consequence, you have to be much more assertive, not aggressive, but assertive,

01:03:35.380 not angry, but assertive going into court about what you want and what the truth of the

01:03:40.600 matter is, because the judge is going to hear from that honey badger a lot of stuff, and

01:03:45.760 you're going to have to be able to argue against it.

01:03:48.860 That's interesting.

01:03:50.220 All right.

01:03:50.780 Appreciate that.

01:03:51.340 Let's go to JJ Getzgau.

01:03:53.040 He says, first, thanks for doing this podcast.

01:03:59.240 It's hard for men to go through.

01:04:00.460 This is part of the reason he joined the Iron Council to strengthen himself and repair his

01:04:04.680 marriage with the love of his life.

01:04:05.940 But since they are getting divorced and going through the mediation process, he has a few

01:04:10.760 questions.

01:04:12.060 So here they are.

01:04:12.700 My father helped us buy the home with our down payment, but she does not want to repay

01:04:17.540 before proceeds are split.

01:04:19.340 Only a verbal agreement to pay back.

01:04:21.220 I would like to honor the repayment.

01:04:23.740 And then secondary is, what do you do when a soon-to-be ex slanders your name in a small

01:04:29.360 community?

01:04:30.040 Should I pursue legal action?

01:04:31.620 I'm trying to keep it simple and not involve lawyers.

01:04:35.740 So the first part of that, the repayment of the loan, if there's no paperwork showing

01:04:40.340 that it was a loan, you're most likely going to have a very hard battle there.

01:04:44.780 The court's most likely going to look at that and say, well, that was a gift from dad to

01:04:49.300 the two of you.

01:04:50.100 If you want to repay it, you can repay it, but I'm not going to make her repay it.

01:04:55.500 And the second part of it, the slander, that's a very common tactic in family law.

01:05:01.420 And it happens small towns, big towns, doesn't matter.

01:05:04.740 And the truth of the matter is this.

01:05:06.580 You're going to spend a lot of money on a lawyer going after a case that won't hunt.

01:05:10.420 That dog is just nothing there.

01:05:11.880 So for the most part, unless they're actually saying like verifiable slander a la, he is

01:05:19.540 a criminal and here's who he stole from, don't even bother going down that road.

01:05:23.840 Just chalk it up to this is the ugliness of divorce.

01:05:26.780 Get through it as quickly as possible.

01:05:28.520 Take the high road on that and move on.

01:05:30.580 You're just going to frustrate yourself if you try and go after the slander.

01:05:34.220 I've heard that and I've heard, you know, defamation, I think is a little bit different

01:05:39.180 because there's probably legal terms for these things.

01:05:42.380 We throw these words around like they don't have any meaning, but they do.

01:05:45.720 And there's actual legal terms in place for a reason.

01:05:49.160 And even in defamation, from what I understand, it's very difficult to prove that by somebody

01:05:54.680 saying you're an asshole that you lost revenue.

01:05:56.900 So why are you going to pour more money, chase good money with bad, essentially?

01:06:02.000 And I, I, I can see why you would not want to do that.

01:06:05.960 A hundred percent.

01:06:06.860 And so much of what it is, is it's opinion.

01:06:09.700 If I say Ryan Mickler's a jerk, what does that mean?

01:06:15.080 Right.

01:06:15.960 It doesn't mean anything, right?

01:06:17.540 Like, like, okay, that's your opinion.

01:06:19.580 Great.

01:06:20.440 I could probably find 5,000 other guys who say something totally different.

01:06:24.020 So it doesn't have any value in a, in a small town, it may feel like it does, but in reality,

01:06:29.360 what's going to value is what are your actions?

01:06:32.500 How do people see you?

01:06:33.740 How did you carry yourself through this?

01:06:36.600 That's the important part because it's also going to impact what you see in the mirror

01:06:41.660 and it's going to impact the way your kids view you.

01:06:46.340 And then the, uh, the last one here comes from Chris Henningson.

01:06:50.500 He said, is there any chance of eliminating the bias of family courts and the child support

01:06:55.260 system?

01:06:56.220 How would one go about bringing and presenting an alienation case to a California family court?

01:07:02.300 Okay.

01:07:02.620 So two, two really big questions there.

01:07:04.940 The first of how do you eliminate bias?

01:07:07.720 Well, we may actually see that in our lifetime if judges get replaced with artificial intelligence.

01:07:13.580 And I say that with, there was a pilot study done in New York, they used artificial intelligence

01:07:22.080 versus a panel of judges to determine who was most likely to, to run if they were granted

01:07:29.280 bail.

01:07:30.640 And the judges were all like, I'm a really good judge of character.

01:07:34.300 I can tell when somebody is going to deserve bail or not, if they're going to be a flight

01:07:38.560 risk.

01:07:38.980 And the AI was profoundly more effective and correct in figuring out who was going to actually

01:07:45.900 be a flight risk.

01:07:47.100 Judges' internal bias plays into what they're saying.

01:07:51.060 So when we come to the reality of family law, maybe artificial intelligence may actually help

01:07:56.860 us here.

01:07:58.220 It remains to be seen.

01:07:59.840 Now, a parental alienation case, that's a term that A, should never, ever, ever, ever, ever

01:08:06.420 under penalty of death be used in a court of law.

01:08:10.800 It's not an actual psychological term.

01:08:13.500 It's a behavior.

01:08:14.740 And if you use it, you're telegraphing to the judge that you're a problem.

01:08:18.940 What you want to talk about is the behavior, the parental interference, the custody interference,

01:08:25.240 the visitation interference.

01:08:27.400 That's the stuff that's going to get you crowned with a judge.

01:08:30.600 Parental alienation is a term never to be used.

01:08:32.360 There's three basic levels to parental alienation.

01:08:36.400 There's the first of, we're going through a divorce.

01:08:39.380 This is the 70 to 80% of, all right, we're breaking up.

01:08:43.380 Your mom's being difficult.

01:08:44.680 Your dad's being a jerk.

01:08:45.980 Okay, there's some nasty words there.

01:08:48.400 Six, nine months down the road, that kind of calms down.

01:08:51.560 There's mid-level, nine to 12 months that's continuing.

01:08:54.940 And eventually that does die down.

01:08:56.780 And then you get to the extreme version of what people really are using for a semi-clinical term of parental alienation.

01:09:04.780 And that's where you're really trying to break the relationship between one parent and the child.

01:09:11.000 You're trying to sever that love.

01:09:13.300 That's what most people don't understand.

01:09:15.940 That's the real meaning of parental alienation from Richard Gardner when he wrote about this in the 80s.

01:09:23.480 And if you're really dealing with that stuff, there's a lot of great resources.

01:09:28.340 There's Amy Baker has several books on actual parental alienation.

01:09:31.900 The best attorney in the country is Ashish Joshi out of Michigan.

01:09:36.320 He's a brilliant lawyer when it comes to parental alienation cases because they're very, very difficult for actual alienation.

01:09:45.020 There's great resources.

01:09:46.760 There's a book, Parental Alienation.

01:09:48.460 There's litigating parental alienation.

01:09:50.100 I've got lots of those resources on my website at dadslawschool.com for how to find that stuff.

01:09:56.260 And for the most part, people need to stay away from that term because it's not actually what the situation is.

01:10:02.300 It's actually just conflict that will go away over time.

01:10:09.260 Wow, that's powerful.

01:10:10.500 I really appreciate you doing this extra segment.

01:10:13.080 You're the first person to do this.

01:10:14.740 I've had this idea for a while, and you're the first person to go through it.

01:10:18.800 So I'm going to take that segment with these questions and put that over for my guys in the Iron Council.

01:10:26.360 So I really appreciate you taking a few more minutes to go through that.

01:10:30.320 That means a lot to me.

01:10:32.620 Brian, that means a lot to me.

01:10:34.940 I've been following you for, what, 10 years now.

01:10:38.240 That's a huge honor.

01:10:39.480 I appreciate that.

01:10:40.240 Yeah, well, this podcast is going to go live on Tuesday of next week.

01:10:45.400 I'm going to do a few things, send this off to my editor this afternoon, get him to clean it up, scrub it up, and make all the links on the page and everything.

01:10:53.900 I'll get you all the details, but this will be live on Tuesday of next week.

01:10:57.380 Awesome.

01:10:58.280 Thank you, Ryan.

01:10:58.960 I really appreciate this.

01:11:00.240 It was great getting to know you.

01:11:02.060 Thank you.

01:11:02.580 I appreciate you coming on.

01:11:03.860 Yeah, likewise.

01:11:04.720 We'll stay in touch.

01:11:05.480 Gentlemen, there you go.

01:11:08.660 My podcast with David Pissara.

01:11:10.840 I hope you enjoyed it.

01:11:11.660 I hope you got some new insights.

01:11:12.880 He's got some great resources that if you're going through this or you're in the early stages of this, or maybe you have gone through this and you're still unsure or you're not getting what you need or orders aren't being followed, whatever it may be, then check out his resources.

01:11:27.960 And then, of course, check out Divorce Not Death.

01:11:30.660 That's coming out next week.

01:11:31.920 Get your email address in there so I can send you an email, and then also make sure you check out The Iron Council because we did that exclusive segment, and it is going to be exclusive only to members of The Iron Council.

01:11:43.780 You can do that at orderband.com slash ironcouncil.

01:11:47.500 Wow, guys, that's a lot.

01:11:48.720 I gave you a lot of information.

01:11:50.120 David gave you a lot of information.

01:11:51.300 My goal is to be the best resource for men, men's issues, whether it's divorce like today, or marriage, or fitness, or money, or relationships, or public speaking, building a business, you name it.

01:12:05.840 If it's of interest to men, it's my job to cover it, and I hope you enjoyed the podcast.

01:12:10.400 All right, guys, we will be back tomorrow.

01:12:12.400 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:12:16.220 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:12:22.120 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - September 09, 2025

DAVID PISARRA ｜ When Your Marriage Ends, Do This…

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