Order of Man - DR. BRIAN RAY ｜ A Primer on Homeschooling

00:00:00.000 And as many of you know, we've been homeschooling our children for the last several years. And I

00:00:03.840 can say with 100% certainty that taking upon our children's education has been one of the

00:00:09.820 best decisions that we've made in parenting. Now that's not to say it's without challenges,

00:00:14.460 but it has been an extremely rewarding experience. And today I'm joined by Dr. Brian Ray, one of the

00:00:21.440 world's foremost authorities on home-based education and the founder of the National

00:00:27.960 Home Education Research Institute. Now we cover a lot from the stigmas around homeschooling,

00:00:34.500 common misconceptions like lack of socialization and parents being unqualified to educate their

00:00:40.320 kids, where and why the world started to move away from schooling at home, the threats to

00:00:45.300 homeschooling, and ultimately why all families at a minimum should at least consider home-based

00:00:51.540 education. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:57.120 chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:01:02.980 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is

00:01:09.480 who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done,

00:01:15.180 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I am the

00:01:21.280 host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. If you've been around for any amount of

00:01:26.120 time, you know what we're doing here, reclaiming and restoring masculinity. If you're new and you're

00:01:31.000 joining us for the first time, which is probably many of you, because I continue to see the amount

00:01:35.420 of people and men banded with us continue to grow and increase and improve. And that's a testament to

00:01:40.760 the work that we're doing here to again, reclaim and restore masculinity. So if you are new, we're having

00:01:46.500 very powerful conversations with incredibly successful men taking their experience, their perspective,

00:01:53.940 their worldview and delivering it to you so that you could improve your own life as a father,

00:01:59.520 husband, business owner, a community leader. And, uh, it's been an interesting ride. It's been a very

00:02:05.320 fulfilling and rewarding ride. And I want to thank you for being on this path with us. Hey, before we

00:02:10.740 get started today with the conversation, I just want to make a very, very quick mention of my friends

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00:03:14.060 use the code order at checkout. All right, guys, let me introduce you to Brian Ray.

00:03:19.900 Uh, he is the founder of the national home education research Institute, and he is one

00:03:25.040 of the world's most foremost authorities on home-based education. Now he's been a former

00:03:31.240 middle school teacher and a high school teacher, and he founded the Institute with a goal of

00:03:36.200 researching a home-based education and publishing his findings for the benefit of children. And of

00:03:41.920 course, obviously their education. So for the past 30 years, he's been a researcher. He's been a

00:03:46.560 teacher. He's been a public speaker. He's an author. He's also an expert court witness. We

00:03:50.620 talk a little bit about that in the podcast. So needless to say, this man is extremely qualified

00:03:55.140 to talk about the data and the science, not just how he feels, but the data and science behind

00:03:59.480 homeschooling, uh, the pros and cons and how, if interested you can make it work with every and

00:04:06.280 any family dynamic. Brian, so great for you to join me today. I'm really looking forward to

00:04:12.480 this conversation. I'm glad to be here, Ryan. I did this, uh, this social media experiment

00:04:19.960 probably two or three months ago. And I wrote the word homeschool and I posted it in a picture

00:04:28.600 on Instagram. And it was without a doubt, one of my most controversial posts. And it was interesting

00:04:36.360 because I had people from, from both ends of the spectrum and anywhere in between that were huge

00:04:41.900 advocates for homeschool and, uh, those who were adamantly against it. And it was very interesting,

00:04:47.220 but I think the concept of homeschooling, which I'm not sure if you're familiar, we've been doing

00:04:52.200 two years now, my wife and I and our family, uh, this concept is very polarizing for a lot of people.

00:05:00.040 Do you find that to be true? I do. And, and I think one of the best ways to deal with it, Ryan

00:05:04.880 is skip the word homeschooling, like, like, like, like toss the H word out of the conversation

00:05:11.100 and go to some core ideas. Like I'll just throw a couple out and you can go where you want to go

00:05:16.780 with this customization, individualization, flexibility, uh, competence, role of parents,

00:05:25.380 like this throughout the word homeschooling. And let's talk about education. And I think

00:05:29.860 that's one of the best ways to go about this, this discussion. I think that's a great point

00:05:34.940 because homeschool has maybe a bit of a, I don't know if stigma is the right word associated with

00:05:41.080 it or some sort of connotation or preconceived notion of what it means. When I grew up and went

00:05:47.200 to school, I mean, I'll be really frank. It seemed to me from my perspective as a young man that the

00:05:51.680 homeschooled kids were kind of the weird kids. And now we're doing homeschooling and I see, and I see a

00:05:57.620 lot of other people doing it. I find out how many people were actually, I'm using the label again,

00:06:01.640 homeschooling. Uh, but there is so much benefit that comes with it. If we don't have that negative

00:06:09.680 connotation immediately, when we go straight to this idea of educating your own children.

00:06:15.480 Yeah, I think that's true. And I think it's also very important for men and women to, to look at

00:06:23.040 things historically. And, and the reality is for thousands of years, parent directed home and

00:06:31.240 family based education was the norm all over the world, thousands of years. And it's really

00:06:36.840 relatively new that the institutionalization of children became the norm. So, you know, you go back

00:06:44.360 just like the early days of the United States of America, nobody would say things like, well, we're

00:06:50.860 worried about the socialization of Abraham Lincoln. Oh, we're concerned about Pearl S. Buck and her

00:06:56.320 ability to get along with other people. Uh, we're, we're worried about the founders and how they didn't

00:07:01.260 sit with the same age peers, 28 of them for six hours per day. Nobody thought that. So, so because,

00:07:07.940 because you and me and about four generations before that we were institutionalized, that's the only,

00:07:15.060 the real reason why we're concerned because that was normal. And, you know, I, I think that's a big

00:07:21.380 question for, for men and women. What is so great about normal? Hmm. Are you, are you trying to be 0.96

00:07:30.000 normal? Does, does normal define life? Uh, you know, does the middle of the bell shaped curve,

00:07:35.220 is that, does that equal good because it's statistically average, you know? And I think most of us,

00:07:41.040 if we're honest to say, no, that's, that's not what I'm looking for. For my children is normal.

00:07:46.260 You know, what, what's normal, like, uh, a bad literacy rate, a low voting rate, uh, uh, too high

00:07:54.100 on the addiction to drug rate. I mean, is that what we want for our children? Normal. You know,

00:07:59.820 do we want them to be peer dependent rather than adult oriented? Do we want them to be afraid to say

00:08:05.680 their opinion because they're afraid of what the click will say? There's so much involved in this. It's,

00:08:09.720 it's really, yeah. And you mentioned a, when you thought of homeschool kids, they seem kind of

00:08:14.920 weird. Well, now we have to define weird, don't we? We do. Absolutely. Well, you said something

00:08:20.780 interesting when you talked about being, uh, connected with their peers versus being connected

00:08:25.560 with their adults. My children over the past two years, because of the situation in which we live

00:08:29.880 and the fact that we, we educate our children here at home, have some tremendous opportunities to

00:08:35.880 interact with adults. And I'm trying to be as objective as I possibly can because they are my

00:08:40.260 children, but my children are able to communicate with adults so much more effectively than I think

00:08:47.560 generally young children are because they're so comfortable and conditioned to only communicate

00:08:55.160 with their little 12 and 13 year old friends who also don't know anything about life.

00:09:00.360 Yeah, it's right. Exactly. So, so we're going to have fun here, I think with both experience

00:09:05.480 and research. Okay. So perfect. So let's do, let's do experience for a minute. I remember long ago,

00:09:11.660 this is probably 25 years ago, uh, the veterinarian, we, we raise a few sheep and we have a few animals,

00:09:18.960 you know, so the veterinarian called my office, calling me back and, and, and whoever was helping at the

00:09:24.760 time said a national home education research Institute. And then they transferred the vet

00:09:29.920 to me. And, and he said, what, what do you do there anyway? I said, Hey, we do research on

00:09:34.560 homeschooling and we, we keep track of homeschoolers and we study homeschoolers and we talk about

00:09:38.820 homeschooling. And he said, without any, any elicitation from me. So, you know what I noticed

00:09:43.940 about homeschool kids? I thought, Oh, what he said, when they're in my office, they talk with me and

00:09:50.520 they look me in the eye. I said, what are the other ones do? He said, they kind of look away.

00:09:55.240 They don't interact with me. They're, they're playing with their little, you know, their little

00:09:58.720 gizmos. That was at the beginning of gizmos. You know, he said, he said, I've noticed overall that

00:10:04.380 home educated kids are more comfortable. It's easy. It's not even a big deal because, and I think

00:10:11.780 you know this because home educated children, they interact with their parents. Then there might be 10

00:10:18.340 years old, but they interact with babies. They go out and they talk with people in the stores and

00:10:23.240 the museums on the streets all day long. And they're not allowed to have a same age click.

00:10:31.860 It's not that you forbid it. It's just that it's not there. You know, it's not there. It's not

00:10:35.860 available. It's not good. So they, they have friends who might be same age. They have friends who are

00:10:41.660 different ages. They're, they're in scouts, they're in soccer, they're in football, they're in the local

00:10:47.320 corporate, whatever. And, and I think Ryan, what, what really is different here. And I think people

00:10:53.680 have to really look at this. And that's why I said, let's, let's throw out the word homeschooling.

00:10:57.140 I was, I was sitting on a plane on the way to a research conference. I attend this research

00:11:01.060 conference every year. I've been going to it since 1988 on the airplane, on the way to the conference.

00:11:07.220 And there's a lady sitting next to me in the middle. And just because we have fun telling

00:11:12.460 stories, right? She's a black woman. We're going to the same conference and she's, you know,

00:11:19.000 well, what do you do? What do you do? You know how that goes? What do you do? What do you do?

00:11:21.860 I taught her research on homeschooling. And she said, this was about 10 years ago. Well,

00:11:27.820 what about socialization? And you know, how many thousands of times.

00:11:32.500 Common one. That's the common one. I said, I said, well, what do you do for socialization?

00:11:39.200 She's probably about 35. Well, I'm in a book club and I play, play tennis with friends. I said,

00:11:47.280 that's just like home educated kids. Sure. They do things. They get to pick and choose with their

00:11:53.040 parents' permission, what they do, you know, like, like adults, instead of like kids behind a cyclone

00:11:59.600 fence with same age peers for six hours a day, they don't get to choose their friends or to do

00:12:04.400 things, but adults that's real life. You know, so it's really parent led home-based education is much

00:12:09.880 more like real life than school is. I mean, almost all of us know that. Yeah, I think that's true.

00:12:14.580 And it's interesting as you talk about this with kids that do things, of course, our four children

00:12:19.000 do things. We have dance class, we have football, we have a jujitsu. We have some neighbors that,

00:12:26.140 that also educate their children at home who come over and play. And we do it in a controlled

00:12:31.760 environment, which is very important. It's funny to me, I think in society, what, what we're moving

00:12:36.580 towards, and I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts on this is that we give children

00:12:41.380 too much authority and autonomy. And we almost in a way allow them to dictate every element and aspect

00:12:51.200 of their lives, but their children, they're not even capable of making these decisions of who their

00:12:59.400 friends should be and what choices should they make and what activities should they belong to.

00:13:03.440 That's my job as a parent. Absolutely. I think you're right. I mean, in the United States and

00:13:09.880 actually most of the Western world, we've gotten all confused about raising children. Okay. So now we

00:13:16.240 could get really philosophical here. And so it really depends on your worldview. Okay. And you

00:13:20.680 might be a, I don't really know much about you, but a person listening might be a secular humanist,

00:13:27.000 evolutionist, metaphysical naturalist. Okay. I'm a Christian. I have a, I have a worldview. We all

00:13:32.660 have a worldview. We all have presuppositions to, you know, how we come to issues like raising children

00:13:38.180 and, and people can be very conflicted. Like, oh no, we don't think a child's old enough to decide

00:13:43.440 whether to use a gun. We don't, you know, own a gun. We don't think a child's old enough to,

00:13:47.600 you know, be able to decide whether to get drunk or not. But on the other hand, we say, oh yeah,

00:13:51.680 let's just do a, you know, let the child decide whatever he wants all day long, who to, who to

00:13:56.240 associate with, you know, what to learn. You know, we're totally conflicted. I'm of the worldview that

00:14:01.160 says, Hey, wait a minute. You're an adult. You have more wisdom. You're the father. You're the leader of

00:14:07.100 a family. You're the leader of the pack. You have experience. You've read the classics. Maybe

00:14:14.100 you've read things like the Bible, you know, you, you have wisdom and you need to use that to lead

00:14:20.380 and nurture and admonish and instruct and help your children. So yeah, absolutely. You know,

00:14:25.440 we've lost that. And, and I've met people, even in my worldview group of friends, they're totally

00:14:31.120 confused because they've been listening to what culture has been telling them. I say, no, wait a minute,

00:14:34.600 wait a minute. You're the dad, you know, you have more wisdom. You have more experience,

00:14:38.720 lead your children with gentleness and love, but lead your children. Then you get to do that when

00:14:43.200 you home educate. Yeah. And you get to do it. Well, I mean, think here's the interesting thing.

00:14:49.520 Let's say you send your child off to school for whatever reason, whether you feel like it's some

00:14:54.140 sort of obligation or just that's what we do. And so it's easier and more convenient for whatever

00:14:58.320 reason. And that kid is at school for eight hours a day and they're being taught by their friends

00:15:03.960 primarily. They're being taught by teachers who you don't personally know what their worldviews are,

00:15:09.840 what you just said. And then you don't see them except for when you ship them off on the bus,

00:15:14.960 or maybe you take them to school. So you see them for 15 minutes in the morning, they get home,

00:15:20.160 parents aren't eating dinner with their kids like they used to. So, and then after dinner,

00:15:24.700 they are on their gizmos, like you said earlier, watching TV. And maybe, maybe the average family

00:15:31.940 has an hour with their children. Who do you think is teaching your children and where do you think

00:15:37.900 their worldview is going to come from, from your hour or from the eight or nine hours of other

00:15:43.420 training and indoctrination that they're picking up? Absolutely. It's, it's taken a while. Okay. You

00:15:49.600 know, this is to me very interesting. I didn't, I had to learn this on my own. I did that, not learn

00:15:53.920 this during my doctoral studies. Home-based education directed by the parents was the norm

00:15:59.660 in United States until about 1900. People don't realize that. And then some people say, well,

00:16:07.320 that's because they're all farmers. No, they were not all farmers. A lot of them lived in towns and

00:16:11.680 villages and small cities. It was because they knew that it was their job. It was their duty. It was

00:16:17.520 their responsibility. It was not a quote, right given to them by the government. You know, it was their

00:16:23.080 duty. They taught them reading, writing, basic math. They taught them how to run businesses. They

00:16:28.000 taught them how to invent. They taught them how to do carpentry. That was basically how it worked.

00:16:34.000 And it was not until 1900 that a majority of children were institutionalized because a certain

00:16:40.660 group of people, this is history, who like to control what an American is. So we got to get them all 0.96

00:16:47.060 in a place where we can mold their thoughts and mold their attitudes. That is not being a man and a leader

00:16:54.380 of a family, letting somebody else mold your child, letting the government say, well, you know what,

00:16:59.400 this year, this decade, we need more engineers. So we're going to try to push more people to be

00:17:03.360 engineers. Oh, no, this, this decade, we need more, uh, you know, low, low end workers. That is just

00:17:09.360 ridiculous. We, again, we're conflicted. We say, we believe in the individual. We believe in

00:17:14.440 a child learning to be what he or she wants to do or be, uh, but, and yet we send them away to a place

00:17:20.500 called public school to let them teach, train and indoctrinate them. Yeah. When you home educate,

00:17:25.320 it's much more customized to the child and you're much more in charge, which is, which is really fun

00:17:31.120 for a family. It becomes a whole way of living. And like you said, we even have research. It shows

00:17:37.280 children who are more peer dependent, which is almost all kids in public schools, don't do worse.

00:17:42.640 They do worse on a lot of measures than those who are adult oriented.

00:17:48.400 I like this concept of customization. I'll tell you when it clicked for me,

00:17:51.340 because my wife and I spent a lot of time deliberating as to whether or not we were going

00:17:55.220 to educate our children here, or we were going to have them enroll in the school district into

00:17:59.980 the place that we moved. And we had decided to make the decision to have them schooled here at home

00:18:04.420 by, by primarily my wife with, of course, my contribution as often as I can with my work.

00:18:09.100 And I remember one thing in particular, uh, I got done for the day and I went downstairs and I talked

00:18:15.680 to my kids about how their day was. And they said, come check this out, dad. And there was,

00:18:19.100 there was a frog in a bowl. And I said, well, that's a cool frog. Where did you find it? And they

00:18:24.480 said, actually, dad, it's not a frog. It's a toad. And I said, well, it looks like a frog. I don't know

00:18:30.140 the difference between a toad and a frog. And then they said, well, let me tell you. And what was cool is

00:18:34.420 they walked around the field. We have some, some land here and they had found this toad and brought

00:18:40.940 it back. And then they spent time researching what is the difference between a toad and a frog?

00:18:45.560 Cause there was some conflicting, conflicting thoughts between them and they researched it

00:18:49.240 and planned it and figured it out. And then they were able to articulate that to me. It is a very

00:18:53.640 small little experience, seemingly insignificant, but it made a huge shift in the way that I thought

00:19:02.040 about educating our children and being able to give them this customization.

00:19:05.900 Yeah. And just one story, you have encapsulated a huge portion of what, you know, parent directed

00:19:13.920 family-based education is. I mean, right there, you just did it. I mean, and I know I've, I've done like

00:19:19.280 many interviews. I wish I'd recorded all of these of men and women all over the world on the airplanes,

00:19:25.320 at gas stations, in stores, in Poland, in the United States, in South Africa. And, and it's

00:19:31.780 fascinating to me. I'm just, I'm just going to give you a rough number. Okay. I did, I did not record

00:19:36.040 all this. The majority of men basically hated school. I'll just, I'll just be blunt. Okay. I would say

00:19:43.900 a little less women hated school women, especially when they got to junior high and it's like, I've got 1.00

00:19:50.020 pimples. Am I pretty enough? Uh, the, the, the nasty attacks, the bullying men, it was kind of like,

00:19:56.480 I'm checked out. I'm, I'm on average men are more, you know, boys are more physically active. I'm sure

00:20:01.880 you've talked about these things, you know, in your, in your initiative, on average, they're more

00:20:06.140 physically active and they're supposed to sit down, shut up and act more like, uh, you know, a girl 0.99

00:20:12.220 listening to a lady teacher. This, this is all, there's so much wrapped up in institutional 0.98

00:20:16.460 schooling, but you, you turn kids loose. You know, you make sure they learn their, their basic math.

00:20:22.300 They learn how to read. They can write a one page essay and then you let them do all kinds of things

00:20:27.360 like what you talked about. It's incredible how much more on average, they love learning and how

00:20:33.580 much more they learn. And we, we have, we had so much fun. We, we did home educate our children and,

00:20:39.640 uh, it's just incredible. I mean, we would, my wife would look outside and say, where in the world,

00:20:44.920 I'm not going to use our names. Where's our son. Okay. We have a son and seven daughters. Where's

00:20:49.080 our son. Well, I guess I already said his name. We only have one of them, but anyway, where is he?

00:20:53.960 He'd be out there. He'd come back in and say, Hey mom, I was watching earthworms. You were watching

00:21:00.600 earthworms. She would, she was leading a homeschool co-op teaching biology. And the topic came up of

00:21:07.980 earthworm reproduction. My wife studied. She said, man, I just don't quite understand this,

00:21:14.020 how earthworms reproduce. So she's sitting there with our son and some other home educated kids.

00:21:19.660 And Daniel says, well, I know, you know, I've watched them. He's watched earthworms mate and

00:21:28.340 knew exactly how it worked. It's just incredible. And so you think, well, what's the big deal?

00:21:33.540 Well, he's using observation skills. He's being patient. He's not stressed out by you got to go to

00:21:41.180 the next lesson, which might be a really stupid lesson that, you know, all 20,000 kids in our

00:21:45.900 city have to learn on this day. You know, it's just a totally different world. It's a totally

00:21:50.860 different world, Ryan. It is. We've been, we've been the beneficiary of that. You know, I think the

00:21:56.460 biggest, well, there's probably four or five common objections. There's probably a lot, but there's

00:22:01.420 probably four or five common ones. And I, and I think that one of the biggest objections or concerns

00:22:06.080 that, that people have is that they're not qualified to do it. And I've heard people say

00:22:13.200 that, well, you know, school teachers are more qualified to do that. Now I know you are a, or were

00:22:18.960 a public school teacher. And I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on the qualifications and what

00:22:26.140 you were learning. And are you more or less qualified as a parent who didn't go through that

00:22:30.980 formal education? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Yeah, this is, this is a great, that's a

00:22:37.020 great question. Um, and as an expert witness in court cases, I've had to carefully scrutinize this

00:22:42.620 question, you know, for over 30 years. And yes, I w I was a certified government certified teacher.

00:22:49.840 And then I became a professor of education, teaching teachers and teaching science. And I really had to

00:22:56.780 think this all through Ryan. And, and let me, let me explain it in one of the simplest ways I can.

00:23:04.380 You can go buy, you don't even have to buy a curriculum, but you could go buy a $19 curriculum

00:23:10.400 that would help a child. You could, you could be the parent teaching a child phonics to learn the

00:23:16.960 sounds of letters, a $19 curriculum. You put a little poster on the wall, has these phonograms,

00:23:23.040 this little booklet, and it says, okay, do this with your child. And you can teach them how to read.

00:23:30.820 Of course, anybody can do that. No college degree. No, no courses on child psychology.

00:23:37.580 No government license. No, you know, no $100,000 of college tuition. And, and we know from experience,

00:23:46.360 the parents are absolutely capable and competent to do this. We know from thousands of years of history

00:23:53.600 that people learned how to read Ryan. Can you imagine that they learned how to read without

00:24:00.720 government licensed teachers? We don't even have to get into all that. How, how could you,

00:24:07.740 how could I not convince somebody already? Thousands of years, people learn how to read

00:24:12.200 without government licensed teachers, without people going to university for four years

00:24:17.280 to be a trained teacher. Right. A lot of that, a lot of that about is about managing groups of

00:24:23.820 children. A lot of teacher education program is about, uh, making the state happy that you're

00:24:30.440 teaching what the state wants taught, which, you know, any given decade could be this bandwagon or

00:24:36.480 that bandwagon or this bandwagon or that bandwagon. We don't have to get into that. I mean,

00:24:41.280 we could spend an hour on, you know, what is critical race theory and what does that have to

00:24:45.580 do with teaching my child to be an honest, respectable and respectful human being? You

00:24:52.460 don't, you don't, it's just, okay. So teacher education programs and government licenses to teach

00:24:57.840 has a whole lot to not do with cheating, teaching children to read, write, do basic math and some

00:25:04.460 science. It has nothing to do with, you know, so, and we, we also, yeah, I was going to say,

00:25:10.520 I've got some personal friends who are school teachers and I am very critical. People know

00:25:15.860 this. I'm very critical of the public school system, but I don't ever want that to be conflated with

00:25:20.480 the individuals who I know, school teachers, who I know, who are trying to do their best,

00:25:25.000 who have a good heart, who want to serve their children. But when I talk to these individuals,

00:25:30.160 what they're so frustrated with is not actually being with their children. It's the red tape and all

00:25:38.220 the hoops and all the documentation that they need to jump through in order to make sure, like

00:25:42.040 you said, that we're teaching what is quote unquote supposed to be taught and what quote unquote they

00:25:46.340 supposed to, they're supposed to learn. And it, it seems to me that, that a bulk majority of what

00:25:53.300 these school teachers are doing or are inundated with has nothing to do with face-to-face one-on-one

00:25:59.120 interaction with a child and more to do with, let me fill out the paperwork. Let me go to this

00:26:05.300 certification or this training and they're hamstringed by all the stuff they need to do.

00:26:10.480 Yeah. That's a great distinction. And most people don't know this. Yeah. I've taught graduate level

00:26:15.780 courses on testing and measurement. You know, we hear about standardized tests, right?

00:26:20.280 Sure.

00:26:20.800 So, so on the one hand, we have this, this myth in our minds that public institutional schooling is all

00:26:26.540 about helping Johnny and Lucinda learn how to read, write, do math and love learning, right? We have

00:26:33.420 this myth in our heads, but when you get into standardized testing and state accountability,

00:26:39.680 these tests have a lot to do with treating groups of children like cattle to see whether they gained

00:26:46.460 enough weight and whether you should add a little bit of more selenium to the feed or not. It's about

00:26:52.240 group processes. It's about accountability between the state and the taxpayer. It's about looking good

00:26:58.940 or not looking good. It's about doing what the teachers unions want or don't want. There's so

00:27:03.860 much involved in government run institutional schooling has nothing to do with the benefit

00:27:08.820 of each child. And I think it's really fun. I enjoy doing this with teachers. Like I said,

00:27:13.160 I've been a teacher. Let's skip the H word, right? Skip homeschooling and ask any public or even private

00:27:21.320 school teacher. Would it be good to customize the curriculum for each child's strengths, weaknesses,

00:27:29.060 desires, and dreams? Absolutely. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say, and would it be good to

00:27:36.300 individualize based on each child's, you know, kind of strengths, weaknesses, talents, limitations? Oh,

00:27:43.960 yeah, yeah. We talked about that in our education courses. And would it be good to have a flexible

00:27:49.720 schedule so that, so like here in Western Oregon, if all of a sudden it's a sunny day, we can just say,

00:27:54.880 hey, bag school, we're going to the coast and study the tide pools. Oh, yeah, that'd be a dream,

00:27:59.340 dream world, dream world. You know, just go down the list. Would it be good? Is it good? I see people

00:28:05.500 are conflicted about this, even on the topic run. We also, we have campaigns to stop bullying, right?

00:28:11.580 Picking on kids and beating them up and, and treating them in whatever racist ways or, or whatever.

00:28:17.680 You say, that's bad for kids. And then somebody goes, oh, but, but if they're home educated,

00:28:22.360 they won't be around bullying. Wait, wait, wait a minute. You're conflicted. You know,

00:28:25.780 we all know it's not good for bullying and people to be mean to each other.

00:28:30.480 Of course. Yeah. Is it better to have a safe and, and, you know, comfortable environment? Or is it one

00:28:35.480 that, you know, where you're bullied all the time? Just go down the list with teachers, skip the H word

00:28:40.820 and go through these traits and you're going to have to say, wow, is that systemically what you're

00:28:47.620 talking about when you're talking about home-based education? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and you

00:28:54.600 know, what's, what's interesting is you say this too, you talk about bullying. There are things that

00:28:59.440 your children need to learn, but you can introduce conflict and conflict management and conflict

00:29:04.780 resolution in an environment that is healthy as opposed to them getting bullied at school. So an

00:29:10.480 example of that would be, uh, my children, uh, participate in jujitsu and my oldest son who's 13

00:29:17.780 years old, he trains with me and other men. He doesn't train with kids. He trains with men. And these

00:29:23.820 are grown men. These are men who have been training jujitsu for a very long time. And he rolls with those

00:29:30.120 men. These we've introduced this deliberately and intentionally so that he knows how to defend

00:29:36.900 himself, not against a schoolyard bully against a 220 pound man. That's who he's training against.

00:29:43.980 Yes. It does take some, go ahead. Yeah. And you're doing it with somebody again, who is

00:29:48.800 supposed to be adults are supposed to be wiser, more experienced and they have the good of the child

00:29:56.220 at heart. Hey, two 12 year olds with the nature that's in humans. One's a big bully and one's a

00:30:04.480 mild man or kid. They do not have the good of the other at heart. And you don't have teachers around 0.93

00:30:10.640 to help out. We all know this. I mean, we all know what happens in institutional schools. It's often

00:30:15.760 like the Lord of the flies. It's, it's really bad and it, and it damages boys. It damages girls 0.95

00:30:22.520 and they become withdrawn. Research shows that those who are home educated, you know, there's all

00:30:28.760 this, all this politically correct terminology, right? Like you want to have a voice. You want

00:30:32.780 to be empowered. Well, guess what? Children who are peer dependent, they lose their voice and they're

00:30:40.300 not empowered and they're controlled by the mob. Usually we have research that shows home educated

00:30:46.700 kids more likely going to keep their voice than they're going to be themselves. And they're not going

00:30:52.160 to be controlled by the mob. It's just fascinating what we're learning from 40 years of research

00:30:57.440 on home education. Yeah. Was there any sort, you said this happened in the early 1900s where we started

00:31:03.980 to institutionalize so many kids. Was there, and what you had said is that it was for government

00:31:10.380 control, which I can definitely see, but it's not usually as blatant as that because it would be so

00:31:17.700 obvious and parents would resist that. So was there any sort of external circumstances

00:31:22.680 that caused people to be more open to this idea of shipping their kids off for eight to 10 hours a

00:31:30.160 day into these, these schools? Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's go back a little bit and want to make sure

00:31:34.640 it's clear what I said. So, so here, here we are going along, you know, you've got the Europeans coming 1.00

00:31:40.460 to North America and I'm not an expert on native America, so I'm not going to get into that. Okay.

00:31:45.500 So we got the settlers and things happening and, and, you know, America's growing. And then we've

00:31:51.260 got the United States forms and, and we have, we have home-based parent directed education. That's

00:31:56.240 what we have. You know, we have inventions, we have creativity, we have discoveries, we have

00:32:00.720 literacy. You go back and read what people reading the average person who had high literacy,

00:32:06.040 high literacy. Now what, what we had was we had people like Horace Mann and others who,

00:32:11.720 for whatever reasons, they start to think they want to decide what a good American is. And some

00:32:17.140 of them, this is, this is really fascinating stuff. You go read John Taylor Gatto's, the

00:32:22.040 underground history of American education. You go read about Prussian education. The, I would call 0.99

00:32:27.600 these people, I'll just call them controllers. How that they're controllers and they're elitists.

00:32:33.120 They believe I have the way that all Americans should be raised. And my worldview is best. Okay. 0.83

00:32:39.720 Some of them, for example, did not like dirty Irish Catholic immigrants. So they wanted to turn 1.00

00:32:46.020 them into good, clean, hardworking, whatever Americans. That's very elitist. That's very

00:32:51.440 controlling. That's very bigoted. In fact, they, the, the Roman Catholics fought this, the common

00:32:58.180 school idea. And a lot of Christians fought this common school idea. And a lot of liberty-minded

00:33:03.300 people fought this common school idea, but the ones who like to control people, they won. Okay.

00:33:08.600 That's it. They won. So they started spreading compulsory schooling laws. And then they started

00:33:14.660 spreading the idea that the government must provide tax-funded education. So here, now we

00:33:21.220 have Ryan, even today, this, I'm going a lot of places here. You can get me back in order.

00:33:26.400 But now we have, we have people who are self-professed libertarians, self-professed liberty

00:33:31.700 lovers, self-professed biblical thinkers, self-professed free marketers. But at the same time,

00:33:38.120 they're supporting statist schooling. They're supporting the forced redistribution of wealth,

00:33:44.960 socialistic, government-run education. A lot of my friends are conflicted, you know? On the one

00:33:50.360 hand, they think they're freedom lovers. But on the other hand, they're supporting government-controlled,

00:33:55.320 government-forced redistribution of tax-funded education. So it happens slowly, Ryan. I mean,

00:34:02.860 so by 1900, we get the majority of children in government-run institutional schools. But by the

00:34:08.720 way, it was only for a few months, and it was only a few hours per day. Think about that. So then time

00:34:14.680 passes, 10 years, another 10 years, 50 years, to all of a sudden, we've got 87% of the children

00:34:20.440 in government-run institutions for six hours per day. It was a slow, gradual change. And so now you have,

00:34:28.560 essentially, you have government agents controlling the teaching, training, and indoctrination of

00:34:33.880 children every day. 87% of Americans are in that. Now, and I want to be real clear, whether you

00:34:39.840 homeschool, private school, or public school, children are taught, trained, and indoctrinated,

00:34:46.560 okay? I want to be clear. Right, right. And all of those, and all those. But if you're a freedom

00:34:51.480 lover, if you're a person who says, I believe in free market, I believe in, you know, children not being

00:34:57.500 controlled by the state, like in, like in Sparta, you know, like Plato's Republic, then why do you

00:35:04.320 have them taught, trained, and indoctrinated by the government for six hours per day? You know,

00:35:08.760 these are really important questions philosophically. And we also know from the research so far,

00:35:14.860 there are some real benefits to home-based education. I mean, academically, social development,

00:35:20.680 and success in adulthood. So I think people need to look at this both philosophically and empirically.

00:35:25.420 Men, let me hit the pause button very, very quickly. I hope this conversation is interesting

00:35:31.420 to you. And if it is, and on the subject of home-based education and the power of parents

00:35:36.040 being involved with their children's education, I want to bring up the Order of Man legacy experience

00:35:40.840 one last time before we shut this down and we cap it out with 20 attendees. This is an experience

00:35:46.600 designed to forge a tighter bond between father and, or father figure, I should say, could be

00:35:51.520 a brother, an uncle, a father figure, and his boy between the ages of eight to 15. So over the course

00:36:00.100 of three and a half days, September 23rd through the 26th, September 23rd through the 26th, we're going

00:36:05.840 to challenge you and your son or your, your boy mentally, physically, emotionally, and give you and

00:36:11.780 your son, the tools and frameworks that you need to thrive in this very strange and misguided society

00:36:18.580 that frankly dismisses the relationship between father and son and, and would like to step in and

00:36:25.140 assert themselves in between that relationship between father and son. So you're going to come

00:36:30.880 to my property here in Maine. You're going to surround yourself with 19 other fathers and sons.

00:36:35.060 So you can learn from work with hold each other accountable to building a base

00:36:39.560 that you can usher your young man into manhood with. So guys get signed up quickly because we only

00:36:46.160 at this point have two spots remaining. There's only two spots remaining. I want to have you out

00:36:50.720 here on my property in Maine. I want to introduce you to my family. I want you to experience this

00:36:55.080 with 19 other men and their boys. It's going to be life-changing for you and for your, your son as

00:37:00.360 well. Now the experience again is held September 23rd through the 26th, 2021. And you can learn more

00:37:06.340 and lock in one of the last two spots at order of man.com slash legacy. Again, that's order of man.com

00:37:13.140 slash legacy. Do that right after the show. In fact, maybe you want to hit pause and do it right

00:37:17.780 now. Either way, get it done quickly. Order of man.com slash legacy for now. I'll get back to it

00:37:22.940 with Dr. Ray. Yes. I think that's a good point. It is interesting because every once in a while,

00:37:28.320 I'll use the term, uh, that, that, that our children are being indoctrinated in. And occasionally

00:37:33.680 somebody will come back and say, well, aren't you doing the same thing? And the answer is, of course,

00:37:37.500 yeah, exactly. Of course I am. But that's my responsibility as their father. That is my

00:37:44.340 moral obligation to indoctrinate them in, into a set of values, beliefs, principles, actions,

00:37:52.520 behaviors, disciplines that I, as their father believe will serve them best.

00:37:58.980 You got it. I mean, here's your alternative. So, so I've been going to this, I mentioned this big,

00:38:03.320 giant research conference I attend every year, you know, a picture of this 12,000 to 15,000

00:38:09.140 professors of education, doctoral students, social scientists. And, and it's, it's so the worldview of

00:38:17.160 most of them, let's just say it's very different from mine, just very, very different from mine.

00:38:21.300 But I remember maybe 20 years ago, I started using the word indoctrination. They scowled at me. They

00:38:27.180 did not like that term. We don't indoctrinate children. I said, whoa, whoa, listen to what I said,

00:38:31.660 whether the children are in government controlled schools all day, private institutional schools all

00:38:37.360 day, or home-based education, they are taught, trained, and indoctrinated because all indoctrination

00:38:43.200 means is you are trying to put into your child certain things you believe and value. You know,

00:38:50.300 everybody does that. Public government schools do that. Homeschoolers do that. The question is

00:38:55.600 who should be doing it and which values do you want going into them? I mean, we, we can see,

00:39:01.660 based on history, and we can look, you can just look around in your lifetime. We can see what the

00:39:07.440 general overall result is of government-run education. 87% of people go through that. And

00:39:15.200 I know they have a very different worldview when they get out of that than my children do. Very

00:39:20.660 different. When you say 87%, so that, that leaves 13%. Yeah. Are those other 13% in, 0.53

00:39:28.820 what is that comprised of? Is that home-based education? Is that private schooling? What is,

00:39:33.920 what is that other element comprised of? Both. It's, uh, it's private institutional schools

00:39:39.180 and home-based education. So it's just, since we're on that, you know, let's, it's, it's really

00:39:45.020 interesting because people who are of the worldview of free market, uh, classical liberal libertarianism,

00:39:51.900 uh, say biblical Christianity, you know, they've been, they've been watching that 13% for the last 0.71

00:39:57.340 20 years thinking, why doesn't that change? You know, why doesn't it go up to, you know, 18 or 20%

00:40:03.860 and, you know, maybe kind of break the monopoly of the, of the government school system. It's tough.

00:40:09.280 I mean, let's face it. The government takes your money for your property taxes by force,

00:40:17.280 the power of the sword and pumps it into government controlled schooling. And if you want to put your

00:40:23.760 child in a, you know, let's say a new age private school or a Catholic private school or a Muslim 0.54

00:40:29.880 private school or Jewish private school, want to homeschool your child, you pay twice. So that,

00:40:34.820 you know, that is literally a monopoly that they have now the numbers have shifted a little bit,

00:40:40.460 but the biggest change has been the increase in home education. So whereas, uh, you know,

00:40:47.000 back in the seventies, home education was about 0% of school-aged children by March of 2020,

00:40:54.040 it was around getting up to be around my best estimate is 2.6 million children K through 12 in

00:41:00.580 homeschooling. And then the U S census Bureau has done some surveys in the last year,

00:41:05.700 kind of like experimental studies. And they think home education basically doubled from March of 20 to

00:41:13.680 March of 21. So that was COVID related. I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I call it government control

00:41:20.480 related. So, so when you, the government starts to control schools, a lot of families said, Hey,

00:41:26.880 I don't like that. Or the controls are so bizarre. Our children are not learning and it's too shit much

00:41:34.280 to anyway. Homeschooling now is about 5 million children, four and a half to 5 million children,

00:41:40.760 but, but we don't know, you know, when the government controls back off and institutional schools open up

00:41:47.620 more, will all of those, you know, a hundred percent increase stay? Probably not, but I think it's

00:41:54.740 still going to be a significant number who have now tried homeschooling and say, wow,

00:41:59.900 this is good for a lot of reasons we never thought of. You know, we have, our child is not anxious every

00:42:06.680 morning, getting on the school bus. We have better relationships between parent and child.

00:42:12.300 The children are, the siblings know each other better. They're kind of enjoying each other.

00:42:17.280 They start to have a kind of like a freedom that they didn't have before. They're happier about

00:42:22.780 learning. They have more time to read. This one, or that one's not being bullied so much.

00:42:29.120 Parents over the last year have learned a lot of things about home education. On the other hand,

00:42:33.680 you've got parents to say, I hate that. I don't want to spend that much time with my children.

00:42:38.160 Which is a shame. I mean, that really is. So, you know, one of the things that I've noticed with my

00:42:44.680 own children is even before I came in and did this podcast, I walked down the hall and I walked past

00:42:49.780 my daughter's room into my office and I said, hey, what are you doing, bud? She's like, I'm just

00:42:55.300 sitting here playing with my Barbies. And it struck me and I've observed this over the past,

00:43:01.360 even just several weeks. My kids are so much better equipped to entertain themselves.

00:43:09.280 They can sit in silence. They can be creative. They can learn different things. They can sit there

00:43:15.020 and they're not lonely. She isn't lonely. She's there playing and she's being creative and she's

00:43:20.340 thinking, but she's by herself. And that is a new phenomenon for us over the past couple of years

00:43:25.460 where they've been able to entertain themselves. Ryan, I've seen that for the last 35 years

00:43:31.700 interacting with homeschool families that, and I want to make sure we say something here.

00:43:36.700 There, there's a, there's an overlap and there's a synthesis of different things that become easier

00:43:44.880 to do more natural to do when you home educate. Okay. When, when the child, we talked about this

00:43:50.900 before, when the child is with peers, six hours per day, for some kids, it's more than that. When you

00:43:55.820 add the bus time and you add the public school sports, you know, that really becomes our whole life

00:44:02.640 and it, and it controls how they do things very much. So, but when you home educate, they're freed

00:44:09.120 of that. And I've seen, this is one of my working hypotheses. I cannot prove this with research,

00:44:14.980 but it's one of my working hypotheses. I've had so many parents tell me, but Brian, Dr. Ray,

00:44:21.400 we don't even really study science, but when our children are tested, they score above average in

00:44:26.740 science. And I said, well, what do you do? Well, we let them explore. They get to read a lot. We

00:44:36.020 talk a lot. We discuss things. I mean, I just described Ryan, what it's about. That's, that's

00:44:42.880 learning. When you have the opportunity and the time to read books, you have the opportunity and

00:44:48.800 time to go out in the yard, whether you live in the city or whether you live in the country,

00:44:53.080 just to go out in the yard and play with flowers or butterflies or insects. I mean, you, you learn

00:44:59.840 so much. And when you have interaction back and forth between an adult who has more knowledge,

00:45:05.500 more wisdom, more love than a peer and a child, you get a lot of learning and a lot of deeper learning

00:45:13.020 than you would in a same age peer group on a government controlled schedule. Then, right. It's just

00:45:21.540 incredible what happens. There's a lot of practical application as well. A lot of guys have heard,

00:45:26.780 you know, my oldest son and I are building a canoe and him, rather than looking at a textbook

00:45:31.940 about how to do fractions and decimals, he's reading it off a tape measure. He's learning about

00:45:35.960 fractions off a tape measure as we build this thing. Practical application, same lessons being

00:45:42.220 learned, but, but in a different context that I, I believe, and, and, and you're the one who's done

00:45:48.560 all the research on this. So I defer to you on this, but I believe will serve him infinitely better

00:45:54.220 because he knows how to apply the information that's being learned. And there's an element of

00:45:59.780 wisdom, which is applied knowledge, not just the knowledge itself. So it's, it's, it just seems to me

00:46:05.060 that it's infinitely better over time, but, but I, but I will say this because I want to try to be as

00:46:09.220 level-headed and fair in this discussion as we can. Uh, are there some hindrances and some

00:46:14.900 challenges that those who want to have their children's education based at home that they

00:46:20.280 should be aware of, they should be cautious of maybe some pitfalls to avoid? Yeah, let's, yeah,

00:46:25.360 that's good. Um, let's, let's just say this up front, just because you do parent led home-based

00:46:33.600 education does not mean everybody's gonna be happy all the time. It, it does, it does not necessarily

00:46:39.760 mean all your children when they turn 18 will be beautiful, handsome, rocket scientists, and they'll

00:46:46.760 all get, you know, whatever job or whatever college scholarship they want. Nobody's saying that. Okay.

00:46:52.100 That's, it's not like that. But when I talk about the research, I'm saying on average,

00:46:56.960 they do better than average. Okay. Also keep in mind that if you have a child who's

00:47:04.360 in, in, in an institutional school and he or she is average in math,

00:47:11.000 if you home educate, chances are he or she will do better. So because you have all of that one-on-one

00:47:20.840 and you have that time and you have the flexibility and you can stop and help them master whatever they're

00:47:26.420 learning, whether it's using a tape measure, whether it's a times tables or whatever. Okay.

00:47:31.320 So another thing to keep in mind is dad or mom, if you kind of like delegating, raising your children

00:47:39.720 to somebody else, if you don't want to take life seriously with them, if you kind of want to be

00:47:45.960 lazy, if you have convinced yourself you need two incomes when you don't need two incomes, well,

00:47:52.120 then probably don't want to home educate, but you see how I put that. I mean, I am, I am sort of

00:47:58.900 trying to lay a guilt trip on people. You know, when you say, I don't know how fair it sounds, but

00:48:03.960 you know, I am really interested in the way that you take this. Yeah. I want to take it a certain

00:48:08.980 way because culture says, oh, but, but you just don't understand, Brian, how many people need two

00:48:14.640 incomes. Right. Well, actually, actually I do understand. Okay. Um, my wife and I raised eight

00:48:21.720 children. I've never been a high income person. I've been a generally a median income to a lower

00:48:29.460 median income person. There are choices we make in our lives. Okay. Do you need, need two vehicles

00:48:39.040 or do you want two vehicles? Do you need a nicer vehicle or do you want a nicer vehicle?

00:48:45.940 Do you need two vacations or do you want two vacations? All right. I'm serious about this,

00:48:54.640 Ryan. This is a very serious topic. Now somebody is going to right away say, oh, but what about the

00:48:58.760 single parent? Okay. I'm not talking about that right now. I'm talking about, you know, a mom and

00:49:04.580 a dad with children, what they need versus what they want. Okay. Now let's talk about the single 1.00

00:49:08.600 parent. All right. That is rough. That's tough. I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to do that. That's

00:49:14.400 hard. I'm not going to deny that. That's hard. Now, what do people do if they're a single parent

00:49:19.460 and they would like to do parent direct at home-based education? They look for relationships,

00:49:25.600 right? They look for friends. They look for homeschool co-ops. Maybe they're a part of a church

00:49:31.360 and there's some support there. Maybe there's a grandma nearby or an auntie nearby. You start becoming

00:49:36.960 creative, right? And you don't think you're a, I can do everything myself, independent, individual

00:49:42.680 American. You know, you, you start to humble yourself a little bit and you, you have relationships.

00:49:48.220 So there are, there are thousands and thousands and thousands in America of single parents who

00:49:54.180 home educate their children of low income, high income, black, brown, white skin, whatever.

00:50:00.040 There are so many people who know and have found ways to home educate their children, but it is,

00:50:05.100 it's not, it's not necessarily easy. Uh, you've got to put work into it, but I want to say one more

00:50:10.560 thing. Not only, not only is it not easy, it's, it is harder. I've done both. It's harder to have

00:50:17.280 our children educated here. It's much more rewarding and fulfilling, but it's harder. No doubt about it.

00:50:23.100 Yes. That's, and I think that's very important to say, um, with, with that, it is harder work.

00:50:30.600 However, when your children are in an institution, there are some very strange problems that come with

00:50:36.960 that too. And some very, some, there are some, there might be some positive influences, but there

00:50:42.900 are a lot of negative influences too. And I'll just pop in one statistic for, for the sake of the

00:50:48.280 discussion here, the U S department of justice, 2019 tells us that today of our roughly 50 million

00:50:58.120 public school children in America, about 10 million of those, excuse me, about 5 million of them will be

00:51:04.780 sexually maltreated by public school employees by the time they graduate. That is by teachers,

00:51:13.100 coaches, coaches, custodians, administers. That's what our U S department just, so I'm not even going

00:51:19.560 to get into all the negatives right now, but, but there are a lot of things that come with government run

00:51:24.420 institutional schooling. So got to keep that in mind too. Yeah. It's hard work and it's rewarding,

00:51:29.940 you know, a home, home-based education. It's not, it's not all a bed of roses, but with that, I want to tell

00:51:35.560 people relax, don't think you have to do institutional school at home. You got to relax, relax and enjoy

00:51:44.040 your children. Great point. You know, when, when we started doing this two years ago, I remember the

00:51:49.280 first official day of school for my kids. What was it like? Oh, it was, it was, it was crazy because,

00:51:57.000 so my wife led the instruction and went through everything. And, and I came down from, from my office

00:52:02.900 probably around noon or whatever it was. And I said, well, you know, how is it going? And she's

00:52:07.440 like, we're done. I'm like, well, you've only been going at it for like two hours. What do you mean

00:52:12.220 you're done? And she's like, we're done. Like we went through the lessons and I'm like, well,

00:52:15.840 maybe we don't have the right curriculum or maybe we don't have enough, like, like something's off.

00:52:22.540 Like why, why are they at school for six, seven hours? And you're telling me in two hours,

00:52:26.900 you got all of the lessons done. I don't believe it. And I didn't believe it. And Trish and I,

00:52:31.560 my wife and I went through it together and we, we decided to stick with it, even though I felt

00:52:37.680 like it's not enough. It can't be enough. And, but like you said, we lightened up, they go on walks,

00:52:44.320 they explore nature. We, we went down to Boston, which is about three hours from here. And they go

00:52:48.900 to the museum and we go to the park and then we build a canoe together. And then we go to jujitsu.

00:52:53.740 And it's like, all of this stuff is included in our curriculum. It's not just, you know,

00:52:59.060 the coursework that they're so used to doing.

00:53:02.180 Ryan, that what your story was a classic homeschool man, dad story. Like what in the back of your head,

00:53:12.160 you don't even know it. You're, you're, you're thinking that institutional schooling is the

00:53:18.420 gold standard, right? And that's, that's education. No, it's not education. That's institutional

00:53:24.220 schooling. And so that's the only reason anybody would think, well, gee willikers, you can't be 1.00

00:53:30.600 done with academics in two hours, but, but you can. And, and research actually shows that, that

00:53:35.880 even in institutional schooling, researchers know that only one third of time is what they call

00:53:42.880 academic engaged time.

00:53:45.220 Right. Of course it's assemblies and recess and transferring between classes. And I get it.

00:53:53.840 Management and paperwork and trying to get the students to be quiet and stopping bullying and

00:53:59.000 all of that stuff. So this is a classic, wonderful story that you just told. It's just absolutely

00:54:05.580 wonderful. Yeah.

00:54:06.960 I do like also that you're talking about the choices because that, that, excuse me, that is another

00:54:11.960 one of the things I hear quite often is, you know, well, Ryan, not everybody has the luxury.

00:54:16.620 That's what they say. Not everybody has the luxury or they say, it must be nice that your wife gets to 1.00

00:54:22.000 stay at home. And, you know, you make choices. Those are the choices we've made choices. We've

00:54:27.320 sacrificed financially in order to make this work. And I've had to bust my tail to make sure that I make

00:54:33.100 more income to provide for our way of life. Those are choices that we've made. And those are choices

00:54:38.380 that you can make. But I really get frustrated when I hear people who wash their hands of the

00:54:44.180 choices and they say, I don't have a choice, right? I don't have a choice. We have to have

00:54:48.700 two incomes. We have to do it this way. And I agree with you. That is incorrect, but it's going

00:54:53.680 to take some sacrifice and some different ways of doing life.

00:54:57.100 Yeah. It's going to take maybe doing some self-examination. Maybe it's going to take a friend

00:55:02.740 like Ryan talking with you. And, okay, tell me what you mean by you don't have a choice. That is

00:55:07.540 not a manly concept. Great point.

00:55:11.340 I, men are supposed to be proactive. They're supposed to make decisions. They're not supposed

00:55:18.340 to be reactors. They're supposed to be actors. That's what it means. That's part of what it means

00:55:23.560 to be a man. And to say that, hey, I just was born into, you know, I was born 35 years ago and the

00:55:31.580 norm is institutional public school and the norm, which is not true. The norm is two parents working

00:55:37.680 for money. And the norm is spending more of my money eating out and less of my money cooking for

00:55:42.280 forget all that. This is a season in your life for maybe only 20 years or so that you have these

00:55:51.240 creations called children and it's going to pass quickly, very quickly. And how much happier are you

00:55:59.320 with a car that's only five years old than with a car that's 10 years old?

00:56:03.820 Come on.

00:56:04.460 It's a nominal difference, if at all.

00:56:05.920 I can give you a lot of stories, but there have been,

00:56:10.220 Brian and his wife have had older vehicles, all of their marriage, all of their marriage,

00:56:16.100 but the vehicle gets us there and gets us back. And we don't pay it on time. And if it breaks,

00:56:22.120 we save our money till we have enough money for another vehicle. That's how we do it.

00:56:25.460 And I get right in the face of friends who say, well, but we can't live on that much for food.

00:56:30.600 I say, how much does a 50 pound bag of beans cost? The 50 pound bag of rice and some good quality

00:56:37.920 vegetables, because with rice and beans, by the way, I'm not a vegetarian, but with rice and beans,

00:56:42.220 you can get pretty close to a complimentary protein and all the amino acids you need.

00:56:46.340 Well, I don't like that. I want more variety. I didn't ask you what you like. I said, what can you

00:56:50.520 live on? Really basic conversations, Ryan. And then people start realizing, wow, you lived on

00:56:57.520 that. Yeah, we lived on that. A choice. They made a choice to do it. We made choices to have time

00:57:05.220 with our children. We made choices to have Betsy have time with our children. So they were not latchkey

00:57:13.860 children. And so they were not children who were raised with my mom and dad at eight 30 in the

00:57:19.680 morning. Oh, and by the way, we'll see at about five 30. We'll sit down to a 20 minute meal with

00:57:24.160 the TV on. And then we'll go to our gizmos and we'll all go to bed. We made choices. That's not how

00:57:29.780 we live. Our meal was every night together with our children. Remember this minimum 45 minutes together

00:57:37.180 of discussion, laughter, arguments, crying, fun, questions, academics, everything. You make

00:57:44.820 choices. I know you don't have a social media. I'm really curious about that because I think it's

00:57:51.280 very easy to get caught up with social media and popular culture about keeping up with the Joneses

00:57:56.820 and everything else. Is that one of the reasons that you've decided not to utilize social media or

00:58:01.520 is there something else? It's a very deliberate thing, Ryan. I have a busy life. I do research.

00:58:09.180 I'm a husband still. All our children are grown. We have 16 grandchildren. I'm a part of a Christian

00:58:16.380 church. I love to hunt. I like to take time on my bicycle, riding to and from work and talk with

00:58:23.260 people. I don't want time for television or social media. I don't need it. I have

00:58:31.480 good friends. I have arguments with people and discussions. I'm not going to condemn social

00:58:40.740 media. I'm just going to say from my experience with people and talking with many, many, many people

00:58:46.060 and reading about social media and studying research on social media, man, oh man, I do not

00:58:54.100 see the value to my life. I don't see it. At this point in history, and I hope this comes across the

00:59:01.240 right way, my wife and I have made a deliberate choice. At this point in our life, we still do not

00:59:06.940 have cell phones. Now, people might think that's kind of odd, but you know what? In what I do, I'm on

00:59:13.700 the computer and the internet all day long. I'm on email all day long.

00:59:22.560 I do not need a cell phone. Now, some people might say, I need a cell phone. All right, if you need a

00:59:30.240 cell phone, have a cell phone. But it's just another thing that can send me feeds that I don't want to

00:59:36.220 see. News people who tell me what to believe. More distractions. I make it a point to be in touch

00:59:43.380 with relationships with a phone and email and in person. In person is best. It's a choice. It is a

00:59:50.480 choice. A thoughtful choice. The one thing I'm gathering from what you're saying here too, and I've

00:59:56.480 never really considered it this way until you had just said that, is you're talking about seeing things

01:00:01.460 in your feed? Well, we know that technology can learn what we want to hear, is going to implant

01:00:09.560 what it wants you to hear, what other people want you to hear. I don't think anyone would ever accuse

01:00:16.440 you of being an uninformed individual, but it seems like you're a little bit more deliberate about how

01:00:23.460 you go about getting informed versus just the default of it being planted in your pocket, in your device,

01:00:29.220 in your head, and everywhere else from all these external sources. Totally deliberate. And since

01:00:34.060 Ryan, we're talking about men, and I said earlier, men need to be proactive. Men need to stop and think

01:00:42.500 about what is my philosophy? What is my worldview? Why do I believe what I believe? What is my metaphysics,

01:00:49.900 my epistemology, my axiology? How do I know what's true? How do I gain knowledge? How do I decide

01:00:56.200 what's a value? You need to drive, you need to be in charge of your life and not be a passive recipient

01:01:03.340 of other people who would love to control your life. There are people who want to control your

01:01:07.460 thoughts. We talked about common schools and government schools. There are people who want

01:01:11.520 to sell you stuff, and they want to be in charge of how you spend your money, which is how you spend

01:01:17.500 your time, right? Because money comes with time, right? And you want your time to be controlled by

01:01:23.200 somebody else, or do you want to be driven what's best for your friends, your wife, your children,

01:01:31.220 your church family, whatever it is? You want to be in charge of that, or do you want somebody else to

01:01:35.240 be in charge of that? And it needs to be deliberate, and it is. I'm not saying I'm perfect at it, but

01:01:40.100 no, I'm extremely well-informed. I choose my news sources. I look at a variety, and I choose. I do not

01:01:46.400 let any feeds come into me. No feeds. I don't want any of that intravenous stuff, you know, pushing me

01:01:52.840 around. I mean, you know, it's funny you're using that figuratively, but I don't think we're too off

01:01:57.140 from that being taken to literally either with things that are implanted into us and access. I

01:02:04.720 mean, we're almost, you know, that way right now. This device is always just connected to me. It's

01:02:10.960 almost a part of me at this point. So, yeah. I mentioned how I like to do little surveys on the

01:02:16.400 street, you know, wherever I am, grocery store, parking lot at the beach, the gas station on the

01:02:20.760 airplane, and we won't get into my opinion on this, but I asked people over the whole last year,

01:02:25.460 why do you think most people believe what they believe about a virus, about masks, about whatever,

01:02:34.120 and the vast majority, Ryan, told me they held up their hands like this, and they said social media.

01:02:40.960 And the feeds that we get from wherever. In other words, it was like a passive recipient

01:02:46.920 letting that mold their thinking rather than being critical thinkers, deciding the values against

01:02:54.580 what they want to, you know, judge information. And most of them said that. That's what they told me.

01:03:00.220 Right. They acknowledge it.

01:03:01.480 Yeah. That they're basically like willing victims of somebody else's understanding of data and science

01:03:09.340 and philosophy. Interesting. Yeah. You know, if somebody's listening to this, and I know there's

01:03:14.840 a lot of men who tune into what we do, they followed my journey. They know we've been educating our

01:03:19.740 children at home for the past couple of years. What are some ways that somebody could get into this?

01:03:25.640 There's curriculums that we use. I don't know if it's looking into a certain curriculum,

01:03:29.280 or if there's other advice or tips that you have for getting men and their spouses on board with

01:03:35.360 this idea of, of educating their children. Yeah. I think there are a few things. One,

01:03:40.600 I've actually written an article on how to get going on home education, but I mean,

01:03:44.420 I'm not a specialist on the, all the how to's, but here, here's the big picture.

01:03:51.000 One of the best things is if you could go to a home education conference and before a year ago,

01:03:58.540 they were, they were in person, they're all over the place and they're coming back now, but go to a

01:04:03.760 homeschool conference. Every, every, almost every state has a statewide homeschool organization. And

01:04:09.340 you could actually go, you could go to this place, HSLDA.org, HSLDA.org and look up your state and it'll

01:04:17.800 put you in contact with homeschool organizations. Okay. So you go to a conference and it can be

01:04:22.740 overwhelming. They, you know, there's all these speakers and curriculum vendor exhibits, all this

01:04:27.940 stuff, but just go and listen and learn and relax and do not think you have to go pick a curriculum

01:04:34.620 or something. That's, that's one thing. Number two, meet a few homeschool families and just talk with

01:04:42.780 them. Just say, Hey, how'd you get started? How did you do? How did you decide your style of education?

01:04:48.320 How did you choose curriculum? And, and try to pick a few different families with different age

01:04:53.200 children. And if any one of them tells you, there's only one way to homeschool, run away from them.

01:04:59.000 Right. Because one of the, one of the beauties of home education, and this is really important, Ryan,

01:05:03.560 your home-based education family needs to reflect the single parent or the mom and the dad and your

01:05:12.260 children. It's a unique constellation. So, so Ryan and his wife might do it one way. And I might say,

01:05:19.960 that's a stupid way. I don't like that way, but Hey, Brian and Betsy to do a different way. And you

01:05:24.800 look at that, I wouldn't work for my family. I'm not your family. You're not my family. You know,

01:05:30.100 these are not your children. And so just remember that there are a lot of ways. There's a highly

01:05:34.600 structured way. There's a kind of a relaxed lifestyle of learning way. Um, there's by a whole package of

01:05:40.580 curriculum for all the subject. There's the way of saying, Hey, we'll pick that curriculum for math

01:05:45.140 and that one for reading and all the rest of, or just kind of do on our own. So go to a conference,

01:05:50.020 meet two or three families, just pick their brains and don't get overwhelmed and nervous. Okay.

01:05:56.780 That's I'll add one more thing to that. And some people might say that that's your responsible,

01:06:01.120 Brian. If all you did with your children for the first couple of months of your quote,

01:06:06.920 now formal homeschooling was read to them, read with them, encourage them to read and,

01:06:15.080 and take this like 99 cent math book from Walmart and have them work through wherever they were to

01:06:21.200 a little higher level, you'd be doing great. Yeah. I could see how people would say that's

01:06:27.540 irresponsible, but I can also see with the level of involvement of a parent, how actually beneficial

01:06:33.780 that would really be. You got it. That's the parents involved. You're talking, you're discussing,

01:06:39.680 you're doing real life things. Like you said, using a tape measure to build a boat or to build a bird

01:06:44.380 house. You're cooking in the kitchen. You're having fun with your children. I mean, I it's,

01:06:52.180 it's incredible. And there are, we know from research, there are families who take a very relaxed

01:06:59.420 lifestyle of learning approach with very little structured curriculum. And there are families

01:07:04.480 who take a very structured approach and we're going to be the best in everything. And both of

01:07:09.900 those groups on average, their children are doing very well. Hmm. You know, there's another benefit

01:07:15.740 too, which is adaptability. We've, we've used curriculums in the past. Uh, and we noticed that

01:07:21.920 our two oldest really did well on these curriculums. And then our daughter came to our daughter

01:07:27.380 specifically with reading and she was really struggling. We couldn't figure out why, well,

01:07:30.960 we, we come to find out she's, she's dyslexic and, and she, but she's intelligent. So in the public

01:07:37.720 school system, she would have been able to fake her way through, you know, a school teacher has 30 1.00

01:07:41.760 kids. Like she, she's gonna, she can memorize a book. You'll give her a book and she'll memorize it.

01:07:46.620 And you'll look, you'll look at her. You'll want, like, look at her eyes and watch her read the book.

01:07:51.780 And she's not reading the words. This is what struck me. She's not reading the words.

01:07:55.220 She's looking at the pictures, which means that she memorized the words and the triggers of the

01:08:00.420 pictures. She would have slipped right through that in public school, but we were able to catch 0.94

01:08:05.500 it because of that personalized attention. And then we realized, okay, this reading curriculum

01:08:10.940 does not work for her. So what do we need to do in order to help her wrap her mind the way it works 1.00

01:08:17.760 around the concept of reading? And we've made some, and it's been amazing.

01:08:22.020 And parents, parents have to stay humble. Like we don't know everything.

01:08:26.060 Of course.

01:08:26.660 I'm not saying, I'm not saying that homeschool parents know everything. They know they don't

01:08:29.880 know everything, but, but you figured out something, you noticed something and you can

01:08:34.700 either be cocky and arrogant and say, oh, I can solve it all myself. Or you can go online and look

01:08:39.060 for some ideas and help, or you can go to a homeschool conference and, oh, oh, there's a workshop on

01:08:44.160 helping dyslexic, dyslexic children. And you, you learn and, and, and maybe you, you help her,

01:08:51.180 or maybe you get a helper to help you. It's just, it's so cool. It's like, it's just, it's just great.

01:08:57.740 It's just, uh, there's so much flexibility if you're willing to be humble and learn and help your

01:09:02.320 children spend time with them. It's, it's really a wonderful way of living. It's the way people used

01:09:07.340 to live. And then we, we sort of like got rid of it for 120 years and now it's making a comeback.

01:09:13.680 Yeah. Maybe we're thinking a little bit rethinking our, what, what we did that those years ago,

01:09:19.400 you know, there's one other objection that I often receive it and it has nothing to do with

01:09:23.560 the individual. It's funny that people would even bring this up as an objection. They'll say

01:09:27.140 something like, well, what about those kids, you know, who don't have parents? And, and I'm curious

01:09:33.880 about your answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. But I realized that is, that is a something that is

01:09:40.420 likely that could happen. It's just funny to me. Somebody would use that as an objection. Cause

01:09:45.320 I'll ask, well, is that your situation? Do your kids not have involved parents? Well, no,

01:09:49.520 just some don't. I'm like, well, you're responsible for yours. Why are you using this as an objection

01:09:53.640 to homeschooling? I'm not saying do away with the public school system. I'm saying you should

01:09:58.800 question whether or not you should be involved in that or something else.

01:10:02.340 I, I, I would say you're right. It's, it's a, it's a red herring might not be meant to be a red

01:10:09.940 herring, but it's a red herring and it's moot. Um, and you say, well, like you said, you're responsible

01:10:16.720 for your children to make really good decisions and be involved in their lives. If you know of

01:10:21.880 somebody, some children who don't have parents, by the way, that doesn't exist. I mean, all, all

01:10:28.140 children, at least in the United States, either have parents or guardians, you know? And so they

01:10:32.600 live with somebody. We don't, we don't let 12 year olds live alone. Okay. So you say, well,

01:10:36.780 if you're really concerned about children who only have one parent or they have guardians,

01:10:41.800 legal guardians and not parents, you can get involved in a nonprofit to help them or tutor them,

01:10:46.640 or you can get involved when you, while you're home educating your children, you can invite them

01:10:50.900 over so that they have a role model in their lives. You know, it's, yeah, it's, it's a whole

01:10:54.920 thing. But, but what that reminds me of Ryan is, and I thought you were going to ask this, but you

01:10:59.100 didn't, but it's related. I have some people say, well, actually some academics have said homeschooling

01:11:06.480 is selfish because it does not care about the common good of, again, it's a red herring.

01:11:13.740 And that argues that somehow when you home educate your child and do not put them in a government

01:11:20.840 or a peer dependent institution, you don't care about your neighbors, which is absolutely false.

01:11:28.520 It's, there's no empirical evidence to support that. Another thing that's really fascinating

01:11:33.060 about that for a while, many academics were saying, well, homeschooling, that's rich white

01:11:39.800 people, highly educated. It was never true. It was disproportionately white for a while,

01:11:45.940 now, but guess where homeschooling is booming now with people of darker skin color. And they're 0.97

01:11:52.380 saying, Hey, you critical race theory, neo-Marxist, whatever, who are saying who, by the way, some of

01:12:00.380 them said 10 years ago, homeschooling is bad for black families, black moms and dads are saying,

01:12:06.180 you're crazy. We care about our children. We love our children. We're good for our children,

01:12:13.160 not try to build up something you think is a government school system that somehow makes

01:12:18.020 society better for your worldview. So it's a great topic. It's so fun. Yeah. It's yeah.

01:12:26.080 Now, but your responsibility is your children first. And then if you care about other children who have

01:12:31.240 not enough of this or that, go help them. Right. Right. That's the simple answer.

01:12:38.360 I agree. I mean, that's the route I usually go. It's just funny to hear people talk about that.

01:12:42.380 You know, the other one I'll hear every so often is, you know, I put my kids there so they'll get

01:12:48.500 tough and be exposed to these things and they'll learn how to be more resilient. And I'm thinking to

01:12:52.600 myself, your children are incapable of resisting bad ideology. They're in, they're physically

01:13:02.080 incapable of it. They cannot by their very nature distinguish between healthy and destructive

01:13:10.160 ideology. Their brains aren't developed enough to do it. They're so impressionable. You're not

01:13:15.560 hardening your kids by doing that. You're exposing them to something they can't defend against.

01:13:21.880 Yeah. There's an old, old, old book that says the companion of fools suffers harm.

01:13:30.940 And it also says that the blind leading the blind, they'll both fall into a pit. So it's a bad

01:13:37.820 argument. It's a bad argument. And you know, I would also say to that, that dad, okay, so you think

01:13:43.980 you should let them be taught training and indoctrinated six hours a day in a government

01:13:48.020 institution because you think they need to be exposed to other things. Well, you know what you

01:13:52.540 could do? You could be the main influence of their life and you could invite over people with different

01:13:58.360 viewpoints, people who want to beat up on your kid and you could have them over to your house once a

01:14:03.540 week after dinner. And you could watch them bully your kid. And then you could have a debate with the

01:14:08.720 other guy's dad about your totally different worldviews. What a tremendous opportunity.

01:14:13.760 But that's too much work. When a dad tells me that he really doesn't want to do that work.

01:14:19.540 I think most of the time, Ryan, it's an excuse for, Hey, it's just easier. It's just easier. I don't

01:14:25.220 want to take responsibility. And that's, that's an amazing thing about home education. When you take

01:14:29.920 on and you actually execute the duty and the responsibility to be in charge of your child's

01:14:35.880 education, you have to grow up as an adult. You can no longer blame anybody else. You cannot blame

01:14:43.340 the public school system. You cannot blame the private school. You cannot blame the peers. It

01:14:49.400 all falls right in your lap now. And it's, it's rather sobering. And I think it's a good sobering of

01:14:55.820 men to realize, Hey, wait a minute. I am an actor. I'm not supposed to be just a reactor. And I need to

01:15:02.780 take seriously what I do with my children and I need to be in charge and not let other people be 0.82

01:15:07.280 in charge and then blame them when things go poorly. Powerful, very powerful stuff. And in line

01:15:13.300 with everything we've been talking about for six years. Well, Brian, where do people go to learn

01:15:17.540 more about what you're doing, the research that you have to back up and support the things we talked

01:15:21.560 about today and everything else? Very simple. Uh, N H E R I.org. That's national home education 0.98

01:15:30.340 research institute, N H E R I.org. And go to, go to connect and you can just sign up in 12 seconds.

01:15:36.800 You can get free homeschool research news. We do not send out a bunch of junk mail. I don't have time

01:15:42.480 for that. So free homeschool research news. And you can poke around our website. There's a fact sheet.

01:15:48.080 There's a gob of research. Uh, just, just go there. It's all over there. Great. We'll sync it all up.

01:15:54.860 Well, Brian, I really appreciate you joining us and sharing some of this stuff. It's been a tremendous

01:15:58.480 part of our journey over the past couple of years. We made the decision to do this when we moved from

01:16:03.280 Utah to Maine two years ago. And, uh, I never saw ourselves doing this, but I'm so grateful that we

01:16:12.160 did. And I'm grateful for men like you and women as well, who have the research, have the information,

01:16:17.620 are sharing this information, trying to let people know that it isn't, it doesn't need to be

01:16:23.000 overwhelming, that it isn't impossible, that we can make choices. They may be difficult, but we can do it.

01:16:27.540 And I appreciate you and your work. You're welcome. And I love doing it. I enjoy doing it.

01:16:33.000 Thanks for having me on Ryan. Thanks again. All right, guys, there you go. My conversation

01:16:37.860 with Dr. Ray. I hope you enjoyed it. Uh, I know a lot of you are homeschooling your children already

01:16:42.580 and see the immense value in it. Not to say that, uh, you don't have your challenges and struggles

01:16:47.220 with it because they're sacrifices. Obviously we talked about that to be made. If you decide to

01:16:52.180 school your children at home. Uh, and maybe there's a bunch of you on the fence,

01:16:56.260 thinking about doing this. Um, I would say hopefully that this conversation gives you at

01:17:01.520 least some information to consider as you're making your decision. And then also again, check

01:17:05.940 out the, uh, national home education research Institute because, uh, documents, findings, data,

01:17:12.880 science, research, ideas, concepts, you'll find it all there. And you can connect with, uh, Dr. Ray

01:17:18.720 there again at the national home education research Institute. So guys, again, I hope this serves

01:17:24.540 you. I hope all of our conversations serve you please. As we leave today, uh, just make sure you

01:17:28.640 hit punch subscribe, uh, wherever you're listening to the podcast. Cause that goes a long way in the

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01:17:39.320 know, and have guys that you've been talking with about homeschooling, shoot them a link to this

01:17:43.380 podcast, like whatever you can do to promote what we're doing here, guys, just know it goes a very

01:17:47.440 long way. And if we have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of men, which we do who are listening to

01:17:52.480 this podcast and they're all sharing and they're all putting that information out there, this order

01:17:56.660 of man movement is going to become a force to be reckoned with. And we're going to gain attention

01:18:00.820 and credibility and influence. And that's what we need. Actually, we need the influence to influence

01:18:06.240 society and culture because I don't think it's going the right way. And you and I have the power to do

01:18:11.160 something about it, maybe to the nth degree, but if a bunch of us do it, then we're going to start

01:18:15.840 moving the needle in meaningful and significant ways. So share it, leave a rating review, check out

01:18:21.400 origin, main origin, main.com use the code order, check out the legacy experience, order of man.com

01:18:27.100 slash legacy. You've got your marching orders. You know what to do. All right, guys, we'll be back

01:18:31.620 later this week. Until then, go out there, take action, become the man you. Thank you for listening

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Order of Man - June 22, 2021

DR. BRIAN RAY ｜ A Primer on Homeschooling

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