Order of Man - DR. ETHAN KROSS ｜ How Men Manage Their Emotions

00:00:00.000 Men aren't emotional.

00:00:02.900 Men are more logical than their female counterparts.

00:00:06.560 Men don't cry.

00:00:08.000 These are all things you've heard,

00:00:09.820 whether they've been directed at you or not,

00:00:12.060 but the reality paints a different story.

00:00:14.500 Men are emotional,

00:00:16.120 but that's not to say that we ought to let ourselves

00:00:18.540 be led by our emotions alone.

00:00:21.600 Dr. Ethan Cross understands this well

00:00:23.600 as a man who researches how we as humans

00:00:26.480 both feel and react to those feelings.

00:00:29.020 Today, we talk about how to deal with intrusive thoughts,

00:00:32.500 how to address the dark thoughts

00:00:34.900 that we often experience as men,

00:00:37.420 what it actually means to quote unquote control your emotions,

00:00:41.560 how to become a more emotionally fit human being

00:00:44.880 and how you can regulate your emotions,

00:00:48.340 even the negative ones, so they don't regulate you.

00:00:52.040 You're a man of action.

00:00:53.440 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears

00:00:55.940 and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:57.740 When life knocks you down,

00:00:59.320 you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:02.420 You are not easily deterred or defeated,

00:01:04.700 rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:07.480 This is your life.

00:01:08.620 This is who you are.

00:01:10.020 This is who you will become.

00:01:11.720 At the end of the day,

00:01:12.880 and after all is said and done,

00:01:14.760 you can call yourself a man.

00:01:16.700 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order Man Podcast.

00:01:22.560 My name is Ryan Mickler.

00:01:24.860 Thank you for tuning in.

00:01:26.020 We are fast approaching our 10-year anniversary.

00:01:30.420 I've got some big things planned,

00:01:31.580 and I'll let you know as those things arise,

00:01:34.020 but I just want to say thank you first and foremost

00:01:36.200 for listening to this podcast,

00:01:38.900 for tuning in, for sharing,

00:01:40.220 but most importantly for implementing

00:01:42.620 and acting on the advice that I share

00:01:44.980 and the advice of the guests

00:01:47.680 that I have on the podcast as well.

00:01:49.920 I want to welcome you here

00:01:51.020 and just let you know that we are a movement

00:01:54.780 dedicated to giving you the conversations

00:01:57.580 and resources you need to thrive as a man,

00:02:00.260 whatever capacity that looks like for you.

00:02:03.080 I've got a very good conversation

00:02:04.960 lined up with you today.

00:02:06.540 We're going to talk all things emotions,

00:02:08.800 and sometimes emotions and the word man

00:02:12.160 don't necessarily go together.

00:02:13.580 At least we think they don't,

00:02:14.760 but we're going to talk about that in depth today.

00:02:16.280 I'm very excited to introduce you to that.

00:02:18.800 Before I do, just want to mention my friends

00:02:20.600 over at Montana Knife Company.

00:02:23.080 When I say my friends, I actually mean that.

00:02:26.000 These are people that I break bread with.

00:02:28.040 They're people I spend time with.

00:02:29.500 They're people that I hunt with.

00:02:30.640 They're people that I have visited their facilities.

00:02:34.040 I use their products,

00:02:35.180 and I think that's the most important thing.

00:02:37.060 I listen to a lot of podcasts every week,

00:02:38.780 and I'm a little bit insulted,

00:02:42.620 for lack of a better term,

00:02:44.040 when I hear these podcasts promote products

00:02:46.640 that not only do they not use,

00:02:48.180 they're just absolutely ridiculous,

00:02:49.480 and that's one of the best things I love

00:02:51.700 about all of our sponsors,

00:02:53.100 but with Montana Knife Company,

00:02:54.880 whenever I go hunting or I'm in the kitchen

00:02:57.020 preparing food for myself and my family

00:02:59.020 or just everyday carries,

00:03:01.160 I always have a Montana Knife Company knife with me.

00:03:04.680 So if you're looking for a good knife

00:03:05.900 that's 100% made in America

00:03:08.020 because you believe in America

00:03:09.340 and you want to support Americans

00:03:11.340 and good working people up in Montana,

00:03:13.980 head to montananifecompany.com

00:03:16.260 and use the code ORDEROFMAN.

00:03:19.300 montananifecompany.com,

00:03:20.360 use the code ORDEROFMAN.

00:03:22.160 Let me introduce you to my guest today.

00:03:23.840 Dr. Ethan Cross is one of the world's leading experts

00:03:27.300 on controlling the conscious mind.

00:03:29.920 He is an award-winning professor.

00:03:32.380 He's a best-selling author,

00:03:33.700 and in the University of Michigan's

00:03:36.020 top-ranked psychology department

00:03:37.360 and its Ross School of Business,

00:03:39.620 Cross studies how the conversations people have

00:03:42.360 with themselves impact their health,

00:03:44.940 performance, decisions,

00:03:47.080 and even their relationships.

00:03:48.920 In his brand new book,

00:03:49.780 Shift, Managing Your Emotions

00:03:51.220 so they don't manage you,

00:03:53.340 Ethan makes the case that we're all emotional,

00:03:56.540 but we're all able to regulate those emotions

00:03:59.920 to produce effective outcomes for ourselves

00:04:02.600 and for those we wish to lead and serve.

00:04:07.140 You know, it seems to me that there's this,

00:04:09.600 there's unwritten rule that men

00:04:12.300 either aren't allowed to have emotions

00:04:14.580 or aren't allowed to express their emotions.

00:04:17.800 I'm really curious what you think about that.

00:04:19.500 I think there is that implicit rule

00:04:22.580 that exists in certain cultures,

00:04:24.700 certainly some of the circles

00:04:26.840 that I used to hang out in when I was younger,

00:04:30.500 but I don't think it's a great rule

00:04:33.660 for a variety of reasons,

00:04:35.340 one of which is men experience emotions

00:04:39.140 just like women,

00:04:40.360 and we are emotional creatures,

00:04:43.380 and so we are in a certain sense fooling ourselves

00:04:46.420 if we tell ourselves we can't experience emotions.

00:04:50.920 I think the real challenge,

00:04:52.580 and my whole book is about this challenge,

00:04:54.760 is how can we find the sweet spot

00:04:58.380 of experiencing emotions

00:05:01.080 in a way that they are functional for us,

00:05:05.700 in a way that they allow us

00:05:06.920 to lead the lives we want to lead

00:05:10.360 and actually work for us,

00:05:11.780 and a big part of that is understanding

00:05:13.440 how to manage them,

00:05:15.920 how to rein them in,

00:05:16.760 how to amplify them.

00:05:18.920 One of the best counterpoints

00:05:20.600 to this notion

00:05:22.600 that men should never feel emotions

00:05:24.800 is actually a story

00:05:26.140 I start off the book with

00:05:27.540 in chapter one

00:05:28.700 about a friend of mine named Matt Mazdam,

00:05:31.220 who he's about as manly

00:05:33.540 as you can get on paper, right?

00:05:35.480 This is a guy who was a champion athlete

00:05:41.080 at a college

00:05:41.980 and then went into the SEALs,

00:05:44.980 became a Navy SEALs BUDS instructor,

00:05:48.140 after that got his leadership degree at Harvard,

00:05:50.500 and then got tapped

00:05:51.440 to carry the nuclear codes for Obama.

00:05:53.960 So this is the kind of guy

00:05:56.140 who you look at

00:05:57.720 and you expect

00:05:58.600 he's always going to be in control.

00:06:01.980 And what you learn really quick-

00:06:03.420 I would hope anyways.

00:06:03.820 Well, you know, it's interesting.

00:06:06.220 Yeah, well, especially

00:06:06.780 when he's got the codes, right?

00:06:08.160 But what you realize really quickly

00:06:10.420 when you talk to Matt

00:06:11.440 is that he's an emotional creature

00:06:14.020 just like the rest of us.

00:06:16.040 And he actually talks about

00:06:17.480 the emotions he experiences,

00:06:19.480 both the positive and the negative ones,

00:06:21.460 as tools that help him

00:06:24.400 achieve his goals in life.

00:06:26.260 These are tools that help him

00:06:27.380 be a better soldier,

00:06:29.560 a better leader,

00:06:31.100 a better partner,

00:06:32.360 a better friend.

00:06:33.120 And we've gotten pretty close.

00:06:34.800 And I can tell you,

00:06:35.360 this is an emotional guy.

00:06:36.760 We talk about our frustrations

00:06:39.080 and our victories.

00:06:40.600 And understanding how to do that well,

00:06:43.120 I think, is a source of strength,

00:06:45.600 not weakness.

00:06:47.080 But I'm curious.

00:06:48.020 I'll throw it back to you.

00:06:48.700 Can I throw it back to you for a second, Ryan?

00:06:50.140 Because you started with this question.

00:06:52.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:53.220 How do you feel about this personally

00:06:55.220 as a living, breathing man?

00:06:58.360 Yeah, well, I agree with you.

00:07:01.320 I think if you would have asked me

00:07:02.520 eight, nine, ten years ago,

00:07:03.840 I would have said something

00:07:05.080 maybe a little differently.

00:07:07.660 No, I agree.

00:07:09.100 I don't think it's possible

00:07:10.660 to suppress your emotions,

00:07:13.420 to not feel.

00:07:14.760 I don't even think

00:07:15.400 that's humanly possible.

00:07:18.080 You know, when you did say

00:07:19.320 that he's an emotional guy,

00:07:21.840 I felt a little like,

00:07:22.940 like cringe,

00:07:24.260 like I don't like that.

00:07:25.400 But I think we're conflating

00:07:27.540 two different things.

00:07:30.140 Experiencing emotion

00:07:32.020 and reacting emotionally.

00:07:35.420 And I think those are

00:07:36.760 two different things.

00:07:38.800 Well, I have a whole chapter on this, right?

00:07:40.980 So the first,

00:07:42.320 second chapter of my book,

00:07:45.100 the title is,

00:07:47.260 Can You Really Control Your Emotions?

00:07:49.420 And I start off by,

00:07:51.700 at one point in the chapter,

00:07:53.320 I tell the story of coming across

00:07:55.040 an article that really just,

00:07:57.440 it kind of shook me initially

00:07:58.560 when I saw the summary,

00:08:00.860 the abstract.

00:08:01.920 You have to keep in mind

00:08:03.640 that I am the director

00:08:04.580 of a lab called

00:08:06.040 the Emotion and Self-Control Laboratory.

00:08:09.880 So my entire professional life

00:08:11.860 has been devoted

00:08:12.680 to understanding

00:08:13.820 the tools that people can use

00:08:16.360 to manage themselves effectively,

00:08:19.700 to help them

00:08:20.420 lead the lives they want to live.

00:08:23.460 and,

00:08:24.420 or lead.

00:08:26.260 And,

00:08:26.740 and this study I came across

00:08:28.880 reported that

00:08:29.680 about 40%

00:08:31.220 of the adolescents

00:08:33.560 surveyed in the study

00:08:34.560 when they,

00:08:34.960 when asked,

00:08:35.640 can you control your emotions?

00:08:37.980 Indicated that they did not

00:08:39.220 think you could.

00:08:40.280 So what is going on there?

00:08:41.940 Like,

00:08:42.120 how is that possible?

00:08:43.280 40%

00:08:44.120 don't think

00:08:45.180 you can control

00:08:45.740 your emotions?

00:08:46.920 That's actually

00:08:47.680 deeply distressing

00:08:48.660 because

00:08:49.020 if you don't think

00:08:50.360 you can control

00:08:50.920 your emotions,

00:08:51.460 guess what?

00:08:52.480 You're probably

00:08:52.960 not going to try

00:08:53.980 to control

00:08:54.480 your emotions.

00:08:55.560 Here's how this makes sense.

00:08:57.220 It's futile, right?

00:08:57.800 It's like,

00:08:58.080 if you don't think

00:08:58.720 you can lose weight

00:09:00.320 or,

00:09:01.020 or eat more effectively,

00:09:02.200 you're ever going

00:09:02.620 to take steps.

00:09:03.460 Are you going to,

00:09:03.660 are you going to join a gym?

00:09:04.780 Are you going to put

00:09:05.200 in the hard work to do it?

00:09:05.940 No, I'm going to,

00:09:06.260 I'm going to eat

00:09:06.920 all the chips

00:09:07.540 and Cheetos

00:09:08.280 and,

00:09:08.720 and cookies

00:09:10.320 and all the stuff

00:09:11.780 I want to do

00:09:12.280 if I don't think

00:09:12.760 I can,

00:09:13.360 if I can actually

00:09:14.160 make a change in my life.

00:09:15.380 That's exactly right.

00:09:16.360 And so,

00:09:16.980 so you now see

00:09:17.700 why I was a little bit distressed.

00:09:19.020 But what I break down

00:09:20.440 in this chapter

00:09:22.120 and it,

00:09:22.540 it comes directly back

00:09:23.800 to the characterization

00:09:24.840 of Matt

00:09:25.800 as someone who can be triggered

00:09:27.440 but is controlled.

00:09:29.160 So,

00:09:30.340 we cannot

00:09:31.060 control

00:09:32.280 the emotions

00:09:33.480 that

00:09:34.060 automatically

00:09:35.020 bubble up

00:09:35.880 in the course

00:09:36.980 of our

00:09:37.540 daily experiences.

00:09:39.860 Like,

00:09:40.240 I cannot control

00:09:41.580 the frustration

00:09:43.340 I might experience

00:09:44.780 or that might be triggered

00:09:46.160 when someone

00:09:46.640 really

00:09:47.200 irritates me.

00:09:49.020 or

00:09:49.340 if I pass

00:09:50.580 someone on the street

00:09:51.660 that,

00:09:52.260 that smells

00:09:53.400 a certain way

00:09:54.180 or that is attractive,

00:09:55.200 like,

00:09:55.860 that is going to elicit

00:09:56.780 certain kinds

00:09:57.520 of emotional reactions

00:09:58.460 automatically.

00:09:59.720 Sometimes I,

00:10:00.440 I do an exercise

00:10:01.560 with folks

00:10:02.160 and I ask them,

00:10:03.000 like when I'm teaching

00:10:03.740 or in a workshop,

00:10:05.180 tell me about,

00:10:07.240 I want you to

00:10:07.840 anonymously tell me

00:10:09.220 about the darkest

00:10:10.640 thought you experienced

00:10:11.960 over the past

00:10:13.260 week or two.

00:10:14.940 The,

00:10:15.260 the thoughts

00:10:15.880 that people

00:10:16.420 anonymously report

00:10:17.460 experiencing,

00:10:17.820 they are really dark.

00:10:19.800 Um,

00:10:20.080 they're the kinds

00:10:20.580 of things

00:10:20.860 that people

00:10:21.260 wouldn't admit,

00:10:22.560 right?

00:10:22.760 Like,

00:10:22.980 and I,

00:10:23.320 I sometimes,

00:10:24.220 I will admit,

00:10:25.420 like,

00:10:25.760 I have this dark

00:10:26.480 thought.

00:10:26.880 It,

00:10:26.980 it comes up

00:10:27.600 pretty often

00:10:28.120 when I'm exercising

00:10:29.060 in the gym

00:10:29.680 and I tend

00:10:30.940 to do these,

00:10:31.360 like,

00:10:31.880 group exercise

00:10:32.800 classes,

00:10:33.400 these,

00:10:33.740 these hit

00:10:34.120 classes.

00:10:34.980 And when I'm

00:10:35.700 walking from

00:10:36.260 one side of the

00:10:36.980 gym to the next

00:10:37.640 with an exceptionally

00:10:39.460 heavy dumbbell,

00:10:41.300 just joking,

00:10:42.160 but,

00:10:42.560 you know,

00:10:42.860 a dumbbell

00:10:43.440 of reasonable,

00:10:44.140 of reasonable

00:10:45.000 weight.

00:10:45.680 No,

00:10:45.860 I'm sure

00:10:46.220 it's exceptional.

00:10:47.200 It is exceptional.

00:10:49.640 Um,

00:10:50.080 I will sometimes

00:10:50.960 like see someone

00:10:52.080 just off to the

00:10:53.020 side of me,

00:10:53.540 like another,

00:10:54.560 a guy or a girl,

00:10:55.360 like on an exercise

00:10:56.260 mat,

00:10:56.820 and I'll have the

00:10:57.820 thought of what

00:10:59.180 would happen if I

00:10:59.900 dropped this dumbbell

00:11:00.680 on their face.

00:11:01.960 On their face.

00:11:03.600 I was thinking their

00:11:03.820 toe.

00:11:04.320 You went to their

00:11:04.800 face.

00:11:05.220 I go right to the

00:11:06.120 face,

00:11:06.540 like,

00:11:06.820 you know,

00:11:07.140 headshot right there.

00:11:08.560 Like,

00:11:08.880 what's going on?

00:11:09.820 Well,

00:11:10.420 it's probably my

00:11:11.580 brain simulating

00:11:13.280 a worst case scenario.

00:11:15.000 And the moment

00:11:15.900 that thought is

00:11:16.520 triggered,

00:11:17.040 which I'm not

00:11:17.580 proud of and I

00:11:18.440 don't enjoy,

00:11:19.640 guess what I do?

00:11:20.860 I switch hands.

00:11:21.960 I put the dumbbell

00:11:22.720 on the far hand

00:11:23.700 and I squeeze

00:11:24.640 really tight

00:11:25.400 because I don't

00:11:25.980 want to hurt anyone.

00:11:26.680 But these thoughts

00:11:27.920 bubble up all the

00:11:28.780 time.

00:11:29.020 New parents

00:11:29.680 commonly report

00:11:31.820 having thoughts

00:11:32.540 about their kids

00:11:33.380 being injured.

00:11:35.100 This is a,

00:11:35.860 just a way of how

00:11:37.080 our brains

00:11:38.060 work,

00:11:39.240 right?

00:11:39.500 We're simulating

00:11:40.580 worst case scenarios.

00:11:42.140 I don't have

00:11:42.860 control over that.

00:11:44.520 But what I do

00:11:45.900 have enormous

00:11:46.680 control over

00:11:47.800 and what Matt

00:11:48.480 has great control

00:11:49.380 over is once

00:11:50.600 those thoughts

00:11:51.220 and feelings

00:11:51.720 are triggered,

00:11:53.140 how I manage

00:11:53.900 them,

00:11:54.440 whether I amplify

00:11:55.260 them.

00:11:55.960 And sometimes

00:11:56.800 being in control

00:11:58.160 of your emotions

00:11:58.900 doesn't mean

00:12:00.480 suppressing them.

00:12:01.700 It means

00:12:02.240 expressing them.

00:12:03.600 It means

00:12:04.160 revving ourselves

00:12:04.980 up,

00:12:05.600 revving other

00:12:06.080 people up,

00:12:07.300 cuing a

00:12:07.880 kind of

00:12:08.380 emotional

00:12:08.760 response

00:12:09.520 to help

00:12:10.340 us achieve

00:12:10.980 or help

00:12:11.380 that person

00:12:11.900 achieve a

00:12:12.360 particular goal.

00:12:13.380 That is what

00:12:13.920 the art of

00:12:14.540 emotion regulation

00:12:15.480 is all about.

00:12:17.620 Now,

00:12:17.820 sometimes

00:12:18.460 suppressing

00:12:19.340 can be helpful,

00:12:21.060 right?

00:12:21.880 Sometimes I don't

00:12:22.680 want someone to

00:12:23.280 see my hand.

00:12:24.720 There you go.

00:12:26.060 One of my biggest

00:12:27.140 pet peeves in this

00:12:28.160 space,

00:12:28.500 and one of the

00:12:29.000 things that I

00:12:29.460 really hope this

00:12:30.220 book does,

00:12:31.400 is that it

00:12:32.020 dispels people

00:12:33.340 of a giant

00:12:34.940 myth that

00:12:36.160 exists out

00:12:36.840 there that

00:12:37.780 there are

00:12:38.480 one-size-fits-all

00:12:39.640 solutions when

00:12:41.040 it comes to

00:12:41.540 managing our

00:12:42.140 emotional lives,

00:12:42.820 that guys should

00:12:43.560 just suppress

00:12:44.340 their emotions

00:12:44.820 across the

00:12:45.360 board,

00:12:45.740 or women

00:12:46.680 should just

00:12:47.280 express them,

00:12:48.220 or we should

00:12:48.960 always try to

00:12:49.700 be in the

00:12:50.080 moment,

00:12:50.620 or that

00:12:51.060 avoidance is

00:12:51.720 always toxic,

00:12:52.960 or that

00:12:53.420 self-control

00:12:54.020 has to be

00:12:54.800 hard.

00:12:55.500 These are

00:12:55.920 all myths.

00:12:57.860 We've got a

00:12:58.320 lot of tools

00:12:58.780 out there,

00:12:59.320 and the

00:12:59.840 real challenge

00:13:00.400 we face is

00:13:01.400 to learn

00:13:02.680 about what

00:13:03.160 those different

00:13:03.620 tools are,

00:13:04.740 and then start

00:13:05.460 experimenting to

00:13:06.560 figure out what

00:13:07.680 are the combinations

00:13:08.420 that work best

00:13:09.000 for us.

00:13:10.460 I'm having a

00:13:11.180 hard time

00:13:11.600 understanding,

00:13:12.400 and I don't

00:13:13.700 disagree with

00:13:14.960 what you're

00:13:15.280 saying,

00:13:15.600 I don't not

00:13:16.140 believe what

00:13:16.660 you're saying,

00:13:17.180 because I have

00:13:17.700 those thoughts

00:13:18.200 too,

00:13:18.720 I mean,

00:13:19.260 frankly,

00:13:19.660 if we're being

00:13:20.180 honest about

00:13:20.880 the dark

00:13:21.300 thoughts,

00:13:21.700 like murdering

00:13:22.420 people,

00:13:23.560 taking advantage

00:13:24.280 of people,

00:13:25.080 like there's

00:13:25.480 all sorts of

00:13:26.060 dark thoughts

00:13:26.560 everybody has,

00:13:27.660 and if they

00:13:28.020 say they don't

00:13:28.680 think that way,

00:13:29.220 they're lying

00:13:29.640 about it,

00:13:30.280 but I'm

00:13:31.360 having a

00:13:31.760 hard time

00:13:32.420 understanding

00:13:33.700 how that

00:13:35.860 is useful.

00:13:36.860 You say

00:13:37.540 that we're

00:13:38.340 doing it to

00:13:38.880 play out

00:13:39.260 worst-case

00:13:39.900 scenarios,

00:13:40.740 but I don't

00:13:41.080 see the

00:13:41.640 connection and

00:13:42.280 the correlation

00:13:42.840 between thinking

00:13:44.180 these dark

00:13:44.760 thoughts and

00:13:46.000 it actually

00:13:46.560 being something

00:13:47.540 of value.

00:13:49.460 Well,

00:13:49.540 they can be

00:13:50.700 at times,

00:13:51.280 they aren't

00:13:51.980 always.

00:13:52.660 There are

00:13:53.060 some thoughts

00:13:54.380 that bubble

00:13:54.820 up,

00:13:55.120 and we don't

00:13:55.600 quite frankly

00:13:56.400 understand why

00:13:57.420 it happens,

00:13:58.000 and they have

00:13:58.640 no utility,

00:13:59.380 and we move

00:14:00.780 on with our

00:14:01.340 lives, and

00:14:02.120 we're all the

00:14:02.800 better for

00:14:03.560 doing so.

00:14:04.940 But there

00:14:05.780 are other

00:14:06.240 kinds of

00:14:07.260 dark thoughts

00:14:08.180 that theoretically,

00:14:10.480 and I think you

00:14:10.980 can make the

00:14:11.540 case, do have

00:14:12.620 some adaptive

00:14:13.920 function.

00:14:15.360 So take my

00:14:17.220 dark thought

00:14:18.100 about the

00:14:18.920 dumbbell dropping

00:14:19.820 on a person's

00:14:20.840 body, right?

00:14:22.020 It's a dark

00:14:22.420 thought about

00:14:22.800 hurting someone.

00:14:23.460 I'm genuinely

00:14:24.680 motivated to

00:14:26.540 not inflict

00:14:27.360 harm on

00:14:28.480 other people.

00:14:29.500 I don't want

00:14:30.480 to do that,

00:14:31.420 right?

00:14:31.800 And so if

00:14:32.180 there's an

00:14:32.500 instance in

00:14:33.220 which I'm

00:14:34.380 having this

00:14:34.860 thought that

00:14:35.580 is now

00:14:36.140 triggering the

00:14:37.740 possibility,

00:14:38.980 what if this

00:14:40.320 were to happen?

00:14:41.480 Like, I'm

00:14:41.980 going through

00:14:42.580 that simulation,

00:14:44.020 it doesn't

00:14:44.540 feel good,

00:14:45.260 and the

00:14:45.860 consequence

00:14:46.500 there is I'm

00:14:47.380 taking extra

00:14:48.340 care to not

00:14:51.020 have that occur,

00:14:51.960 right?

00:14:52.140 So squeezing

00:14:53.300 that dumbbell

00:14:53.840 tighter, I'm

00:14:54.940 taking a longer

00:14:55.720 route away.

00:14:56.740 If my kids

00:14:57.720 are, I

00:14:58.440 remember when

00:14:58.880 my daughter,

00:14:59.960 one of my

00:15:00.240 oldest daughter

00:15:00.680 was younger,

00:15:01.140 we were down

00:15:01.620 south, and

00:15:03.020 there was a

00:15:05.020 stock that we

00:15:06.260 were messing

00:15:06.960 around on.

00:15:07.900 You know, I

00:15:08.140 was just playing

00:15:08.600 around, and she

00:15:09.760 had just learned

00:15:10.200 to walk, and I

00:15:11.540 instantly had the

00:15:12.420 thought of her

00:15:13.340 falling into

00:15:14.560 the sea, right?

00:15:16.360 It's a dark

00:15:16.840 thought.

00:15:17.500 Well, what's the

00:15:18.020 function there?

00:15:18.700 The function is

00:15:19.420 there, it's like I

00:15:20.080 made a beeline to

00:15:21.700 make sure she

00:15:22.220 didn't go close

00:15:22.860 to the edge.

00:15:23.840 So that is what

00:15:24.920 I mean where

00:15:25.500 sometimes these

00:15:27.020 kinds of dark

00:15:27.680 thoughts can have

00:15:28.360 a functionality

00:15:28.900 to them.

00:15:29.620 They may not

00:15:30.240 always, though,

00:15:31.340 have that

00:15:31.800 functionality.

00:15:32.920 But more

00:15:33.520 generally, the

00:15:34.720 idea that we

00:15:36.320 experience intrusive

00:15:38.040 negative thoughts,

00:15:39.420 this is an

00:15:39.940 incredibly common

00:15:41.400 experience that is

00:15:43.320 true of people

00:15:43.940 across cultures.

00:15:44.960 What I, I guess

00:15:48.220 the way I would

00:15:48.860 interpret what you

00:15:49.620 said is, it's a

00:15:50.640 bit of a red

00:15:51.660 teaming type

00:15:52.840 exercise.

00:15:53.960 Are you familiar

00:15:54.500 with the concept

00:15:55.080 of red teaming?

00:15:56.240 I'm not, please

00:15:57.020 tell me.

00:15:58.120 So with red

00:15:59.460 teaming, it

00:16:00.260 could involve

00:16:01.140 military operations

00:16:02.400 or corporate

00:16:03.000 operations where

00:16:04.300 an organization

00:16:05.680 might come up

00:16:06.800 with a new

00:16:07.640 product or a

00:16:08.360 service, and

00:16:09.460 the red team

00:16:10.340 is supposed to

00:16:11.080 come in and

00:16:11.720 just poke all

00:16:12.600 the holes it

00:16:13.200 possibly can so

00:16:14.700 that the team

00:16:15.260 can then decide,

00:16:16.320 okay, well,

00:16:16.660 that's vulnerable,

00:16:18.100 like, that's a

00:16:19.160 situation, that's

00:16:19.980 an issue, like,

00:16:20.700 let's fix all

00:16:21.960 these holes before

00:16:22.700 we bring it to

00:16:23.280 market or in

00:16:24.540 military before we

00:16:25.520 actually go on the

00:16:26.160 exercise.

00:16:27.120 And I think

00:16:27.620 that's what I

00:16:28.280 hear you saying

00:16:29.140 in my own words

00:16:30.060 is you're red

00:16:31.860 teaming all of

00:16:32.640 the things that

00:16:33.080 could go wrong

00:16:33.860 so that you

00:16:34.360 could be a more

00:16:34.860 responsible,

00:16:36.300 ethical, righteous

00:16:37.760 human being.

00:16:38.940 That's right.

00:16:39.540 And sometimes the

00:16:40.640 guardrails on that

00:16:42.400 red teaming

00:16:43.120 process are

00:16:45.400 pretty loose or

00:16:46.460 don't exist.

00:16:47.280 So, you know,

00:16:47.960 this brain of

00:16:48.680 ours, it is

00:16:50.240 remarkably

00:16:51.140 sophisticated in

00:16:53.180 coming up with

00:16:53.860 alternative scenarios

00:16:55.700 for things and

00:16:57.020 coming up with all

00:16:57.880 sorts of

00:16:58.380 possibilities for

00:16:59.320 what could

00:17:00.080 happen.

00:17:01.000 And so sometimes

00:17:01.740 those really

00:17:02.400 outlandish and

00:17:03.400 unrealistic ones

00:17:04.460 sometimes do seep

00:17:05.500 into awareness

00:17:06.200 and they're so

00:17:07.460 unlikely there is

00:17:08.480 no functionality

00:17:09.120 to them.

00:17:10.320 And so that can

00:17:11.060 happen at times

00:17:11.940 and we want to

00:17:12.440 be aware of

00:17:13.040 that because

00:17:14.020 I think it's

00:17:14.500 also important

00:17:15.000 that we don't

00:17:15.460 get down on

00:17:16.780 ourselves if we

00:17:17.800 sometimes do

00:17:18.480 experience a

00:17:20.280 negative thought

00:17:20.980 that we're not

00:17:22.200 proud of,

00:17:22.920 knowing that it

00:17:23.980 is common.

00:17:26.080 We clearly don't

00:17:26.660 want to act on

00:17:27.400 that thought

00:17:27.900 though.

00:17:29.440 Yeah, because I

00:17:30.400 think there's

00:17:31.160 some utility in

00:17:33.760 going through that

00:17:34.380 process now that

00:17:35.160 you're explaining it

00:17:35.880 to me.

00:17:36.220 and I also think

00:17:38.020 there's just

00:17:38.660 selfish, in

00:17:41.240 some ways, a

00:17:42.160 lot of vile

00:17:42.800 desires that

00:17:44.380 are at the

00:17:45.060 expense of other

00:17:45.720 people that

00:17:46.240 obviously I hope

00:17:47.580 it's obvious that

00:17:48.220 we wouldn't act

00:17:48.820 on.

00:17:49.840 Exactly.

00:17:50.540 Exactly.

00:17:51.080 We don't want to

00:17:51.660 act on those

00:17:52.440 dark, dark, dark

00:17:54.360 thoughts.

00:17:55.280 But, you know, I

00:17:56.080 bring up this

00:17:56.800 intrusive thought

00:17:57.620 example just to

00:18:00.180 make the point

00:18:00.860 there's a

00:18:01.380 difference between

00:18:02.460 the feelings that

00:18:05.080 automatically occur

00:18:06.980 in our lives.

00:18:08.080 I think it is

00:18:08.780 futile to

00:18:10.460 pretend that we

00:18:11.420 can navigate the

00:18:12.260 world without

00:18:13.060 ever experiencing

00:18:14.180 different emotional

00:18:14.880 responses, right?

00:18:16.680 It's A, not

00:18:18.480 possible, given

00:18:19.800 that emotions are

00:18:20.460 part of how we

00:18:21.520 work, and B, I

00:18:23.620 would argue it

00:18:24.160 is not desirable

00:18:25.620 because emotions,

00:18:27.580 when they're

00:18:27.840 activated in the

00:18:28.560 right context and

00:18:30.200 in the right

00:18:30.480 proportion, it's

00:18:30.860 emotions can be

00:18:31.980 really, really

00:18:32.660 useful.

00:18:34.240 And I think

00:18:34.600 that's a reframe

00:18:35.920 that we would all

00:18:36.820 do well to

00:18:38.080 embrace.

00:18:38.800 I'll say one more

00:18:39.280 thing, Ryan, just

00:18:39.800 to really punctuate

00:18:40.540 this.

00:18:41.400 So I do a lot of

00:18:42.760 public speaking in

00:18:44.060 my career, and I

00:18:45.620 often reflect after

00:18:47.220 I do, after an

00:18:48.000 engagement, like

00:18:48.760 what really was an

00:18:51.120 A-plus and what

00:18:52.220 wasn't.

00:18:53.600 And consistently,

00:18:54.540 when I think back

00:18:55.580 to the engagements

00:18:56.720 that weren't really

00:18:57.980 home runs, they

00:18:59.540 were the times where

00:19:00.320 I didn't experience

00:19:01.320 any anxiety in the

00:19:03.440 days leading up to

00:19:04.160 the engagement.

00:19:05.700 As a result, there

00:19:06.640 was no signal inside

00:19:08.160 me that motivated me

00:19:09.400 to prepare for those

00:19:11.040 engagements, to make

00:19:12.340 sure I was on the

00:19:13.060 top of my game.

00:19:13.680 I just went in there

00:19:14.280 and I winked it.

00:19:15.260 And as a result, it

00:19:16.340 went okay, but not as

00:19:18.060 good as the home runs

00:19:19.560 go.

00:19:20.240 That's an example of

00:19:21.420 how a negative

00:19:22.640 emotional experience

00:19:23.680 like anxiety in the

00:19:24.940 right proportions can

00:19:26.460 be quite effective.

00:19:27.200 It reminds me of the

00:19:29.980 phrase, how does it

00:19:32.520 go?

00:19:33.160 Hate is not the

00:19:34.960 opposite of love,

00:19:36.080 apathy is.

00:19:37.480 So if you're

00:19:38.200 completely emotionally

00:19:40.080 detached from the

00:19:41.380 concept of love or

00:19:44.320 expression or feeling

00:19:45.160 for another person,

00:19:46.440 that's antithetical to

00:19:48.300 love.

00:19:48.720 Hate is another

00:19:49.420 emotion.

00:19:50.580 If you truly didn't

00:19:52.920 love the other person

00:19:53.980 or have some feeling

00:19:55.140 towards the other

00:19:55.700 person, you certainly

00:19:57.380 wouldn't hate them.

00:19:58.520 You would just be

00:19:59.400 completely oblivious to

00:20:01.520 that individual.

00:20:02.880 Yeah.

00:20:03.260 It's like, it's not

00:20:04.000 worth your emotional,

00:20:05.740 the stakes aren't there

00:20:07.460 to actually have that

00:20:08.680 response.

00:20:10.840 Hate is certainly

00:20:11.860 triggered in contexts

00:20:13.140 where you care about

00:20:15.140 something, right?

00:20:16.620 Right.

00:20:16.880 And, and, and it's

00:20:18.720 taking a negative bend

00:20:20.560 that experience as

00:20:21.740 opposed to the more

00:20:22.500 positive love

00:20:23.620 affiliative, but, but

00:20:24.880 certainly it is a sign

00:20:26.280 that you are invested

00:20:27.920 in some relationship.

00:20:30.240 Yeah, totally.

00:20:31.820 So, so, um, go

00:20:34.040 ahead.

00:20:35.260 Well, you used a

00:20:36.440 couple of terms

00:20:37.220 interchangeably.

00:20:38.100 So there, there's

00:20:39.320 some things here.

00:20:39.920 So control, we're

00:20:41.160 talking about emotions

00:20:42.640 now.

00:20:42.880 So control, uh, and

00:20:44.660 I wrote these down,

00:20:45.400 regulate, manage,

00:20:47.980 suppress.

00:20:49.000 Some of these terms

00:20:50.380 got used interchangeably.

00:20:52.440 And I'm wondering if

00:20:53.720 there's a distinction

00:20:55.240 between, you know, for

00:20:57.220 example, controlling

00:20:58.900 versus regulating your

00:21:00.480 emotions, or if it's

00:21:01.520 just semantics.

00:21:03.820 Three of them are

00:21:04.880 synonyms.

00:21:05.640 One is very distinct.

00:21:06.740 So thank you for, uh,

00:21:08.380 pointing this out.

00:21:09.200 So control, manage,

00:21:11.120 regulate.

00:21:12.100 I use those

00:21:13.380 interchangeably.

00:21:14.480 I use those as

00:21:15.380 synonyms.

00:21:16.140 Suppress is a

00:21:18.240 unique tactic that

00:21:20.380 is, is, I would

00:21:21.720 say, uh, a, a, a

00:21:23.480 method of controlling

00:21:25.620 slash managing slash

00:21:27.280 regulating.

00:21:27.600 And there are lots of

00:21:29.240 tactics.

00:21:29.420 Unhealthy, you would

00:21:29.740 suggest.

00:21:30.740 Not always.

00:21:32.880 Okay.

00:21:33.260 Suppressing is not

00:21:34.360 always unhealthy.

00:21:35.900 Um, if I am in a

00:21:41.500 context where displaying

00:21:43.080 my emotions is going to

00:21:45.220 undermine my goals, then

00:21:47.440 the ability to suppress,

00:21:48.980 I would argue, is

00:21:49.680 useful.

00:21:50.600 Laughing at a funeral, I

00:21:52.340 think, is not a great, is

00:21:53.700 not a great move, right?

00:21:55.360 Um, but actually there,

00:21:56.540 there are times where it's

00:21:57.620 appropriate, you know, if

00:21:58.440 somebody's getting a thing

00:21:59.580 and they're telling a funny

00:22:00.540 anecdote about the, the

00:22:01.840 deceased, you should

00:22:03.000 laugh.

00:22:03.840 Sure.

00:22:04.540 Absolutely.

00:22:05.320 There's, there's, there's,

00:22:06.260 there's nuance to this,

00:22:07.420 right?

00:22:07.740 But you're not going to

00:22:09.340 be walking into the, uh,

00:22:12.360 facilities, you know, with

00:22:14.220 a big smile on your face.

00:22:15.600 Sure.

00:22:15.860 In all likelihood, right?

00:22:17.140 This is not going to serve

00:22:18.100 you too well.

00:22:18.900 There's this wonderful study

00:22:20.600 that I talk about in the

00:22:21.960 book.

00:22:22.240 It's one of my favorites,

00:22:23.140 um, that what the

00:22:25.460 researchers wanted to know

00:22:26.800 is in the immediate

00:22:27.860 aftermath of 9-11, um,

00:22:30.920 what were the individual

00:22:33.500 aptitudes or capacities

00:22:35.900 that predicted resilience.

00:22:39.920 And so what the

00:22:40.360 experimenters did is they

00:22:41.400 brought the, the

00:22:42.240 participants into the

00:22:43.420 laboratory and they went,

00:22:45.440 we, they had them do this

00:22:46.640 task that involved on some

00:22:49.080 trials, they were asked to

00:22:50.960 really express their

00:22:52.900 emotional reaction to

00:22:54.060 viewing a, um, like a

00:22:56.680 picture that elicited a

00:22:59.460 response, like a, uh, you

00:23:01.660 know, a gory image, let's

00:23:03.360 say, so on some trials of

00:23:04.860 this experiment, you're

00:23:05.640 supposed to just display

00:23:07.080 the, like express the

00:23:08.180 response fully, like I'm

00:23:09.220 doing now, like eyes wide

00:23:10.560 open, you're seeing

00:23:11.500 emotion come out of me.

00:23:12.780 Right.

00:23:13.580 Um, and other trials,

00:23:15.020 you're supposed to do what

00:23:16.020 you're doing to me right

00:23:16.860 now, like poker face, no

00:23:19.080 expression.

00:23:20.340 There we go.

00:23:21.120 That's just the, the, the

00:23:22.580 version of RBF for me is

00:23:24.500 this face.

00:23:25.460 It's like a very serious

00:23:26.520 face.

00:23:27.080 I, oh, I, I, I get you

00:23:28.420 loud and clear.

00:23:29.160 I just moved back a little

00:23:30.140 bit when I saw that.

00:23:32.160 So, so, so here we

00:23:33.340 here's the cool part of

00:23:34.420 that, about this study.

00:23:35.540 Like you're telling

00:23:36.840 people like gesticulate,

00:23:39.800 like really be expressive

00:23:40.940 and then really rein it

00:23:42.480 in.

00:23:42.740 And what the, the

00:23:43.960 scientists are then doing

00:23:45.140 and they're using this as

00:23:46.100 an index of your ability

00:23:47.760 to flexibly express or

00:23:51.080 suppress an emotional

00:23:52.600 response so that someone

00:23:54.060 else can either see or not

00:23:56.000 see what you're displaying.

00:23:57.000 And then they track these

00:23:58.420 students over time.

00:24:00.420 I think it was over, um,

00:24:02.740 18 months or maybe two

00:24:03.940 years.

00:24:04.760 Um, it was over a long

00:24:06.140 period of time and they,

00:24:07.160 they look to see which

00:24:09.300 are the participants that

00:24:10.760 are doing best in their

00:24:12.520 lives.

00:24:13.420 It's the, it's the

00:24:14.820 participants who are able

00:24:15.780 to both express really

00:24:18.200 well and suppress really

00:24:19.840 well.

00:24:20.260 It's that capacity to do

00:24:21.700 both of those things that

00:24:23.320 is predicting success.

00:24:24.500 If I'm in an, if I'm in

00:24:25.600 an important meeting and

00:24:27.880 I'm, it's in a

00:24:28.560 negotiation, right?

00:24:29.760 And I'm really frustrated,

00:24:32.000 sometimes I do want you

00:24:34.920 to see my frustration.

00:24:37.740 Sometimes I want to keep

00:24:39.440 that frustration hidden,

00:24:43.120 right?

00:24:43.860 Depending on what my goals

00:24:45.020 are in the part of that

00:24:46.000 negotiation.

00:24:47.180 And that's true across

00:24:48.260 life.

00:24:48.580 We have evolved the

00:24:49.700 capacity to suppress

00:24:51.500 things for a reason.

00:24:53.700 It's useful.

00:24:54.380 In some contexts, but

00:24:56.500 here is, here is like a

00:24:58.860 mantra I live by.

00:25:00.940 And I really hope to

00:25:01.980 impress upon people who

00:25:04.000 are listening and anyone

00:25:05.600 who reads my book, which

00:25:06.800 is there are no one size

00:25:09.780 fits all solutions to

00:25:11.680 managing our emotional

00:25:13.360 lives.

00:25:14.380 We have different tactics

00:25:15.720 at our disposal for a

00:25:18.700 reason.

00:25:20.140 We also know that we

00:25:21.700 human beings, we love to

00:25:22.820 make things super, super

00:25:24.220 simple.

00:25:25.000 We like to put things and

00:25:26.740 people in boxes.

00:25:27.840 Men, they don't feel.

00:25:29.580 Men, they always suppress.

00:25:30.860 Women always express.

00:25:32.760 This isn't how we work.

00:25:34.840 We've got, we're like

00:25:35.720 carpenters showing up to a

00:25:37.680 work site.

00:25:38.460 Like my grandfather was a

00:25:39.700 carpenter.

00:25:40.400 He had an amazing tool belt

00:25:43.260 with like all of these

00:25:44.540 different tools that he

00:25:45.580 whipped out depending on the

00:25:47.900 demands of the job.

00:25:49.100 He didn't just show up with a

00:25:50.180 hammer.

00:25:50.480 That would have been

00:25:51.260 insane.

00:25:52.300 Same is true when it comes

00:25:53.960 to our emotional lives.

00:25:56.800 Yeah, I, I'm really

00:25:58.060 intrigued by this because

00:26:00.580 anybody who listens to this

00:26:02.900 podcast, no, I hate the term

00:26:05.680 vulnerability.

00:26:06.220 I hate it.

00:26:07.260 I despise it.

00:26:08.080 I think it's not useful.

00:26:09.400 And I think in many cases it's

00:26:11.400 actually dangerous because

00:26:13.640 people have embraced it as

00:26:17.560 we're just supposed to reveal

00:26:19.440 all in any situation to

00:26:21.340 anybody.

00:26:21.900 And I think that could actually

00:26:22.980 be really dangerous.

00:26:24.780 Well, there's, there's parts

00:26:26.520 of our lives where we're not

00:26:27.800 supposed to reveal.

00:26:28.720 And there's parts of our

00:26:29.680 lives to certain and

00:26:31.660 appropriate people that we are

00:26:33.220 supposed to reveal.

00:26:34.300 But this word of vulnerability

00:26:36.200 has become a catch-all for

00:26:38.000 just blab and barf all your

00:26:40.680 feelings all over everybody.

00:26:42.160 And I'm not interested in that.

00:26:43.580 Well, you know, I, I, I, I love

00:26:45.920 your honesty and authenticity

00:26:47.480 there and dare I even call it

00:26:50.180 vulnerability, right?

00:26:51.080 I'm just joking.

00:26:52.140 Yeah.

00:26:52.680 Don't, don't, don't call it

00:26:53.820 that.

00:26:54.100 Yeah.

00:26:55.340 It's just honesty, honesty or

00:26:57.220 humility, whatever you want to

00:26:58.400 call it.

00:26:58.960 But, but, but I mean, what

00:26:59.900 you're articulating, the

00:27:00.900 frustration you are articulating

00:27:02.700 is the same frustration that I

00:27:04.940 experience when I hear people

00:27:06.500 say, you should always be in

00:27:08.800 the moment.

00:27:09.860 You should never avoid your,

00:27:11.520 you should never avoid

00:27:13.080 anything.

00:27:14.520 You should always approach.

00:27:18.300 Our lives are incredibly

00:27:20.520 nuanced and complex.

00:27:23.660 When do we ever use one

00:27:25.600 decision rule for every single

00:27:27.680 thing in our lives?

00:27:28.720 We, we, we never do.

00:27:31.220 Right.

00:27:31.560 And why?

00:27:32.120 So, so if that's true, why

00:27:33.180 would we want to be so rigid

00:27:34.700 when it comes to our emotional

00:27:36.300 lives?

00:27:36.700 We, we shouldn't.

00:27:38.320 And I would argue most of us

00:27:39.840 are not.

00:27:40.980 And so, so like, of course,

00:27:43.460 like, you know, do we want to

00:27:45.300 be open and about every single

00:27:47.840 thing happening inside here,

00:27:49.960 inside here in our hearts and

00:27:51.720 minds?

00:27:52.140 No, of course not.

00:27:54.140 That wouldn't be beneficial for

00:27:56.240 any of us.

00:27:57.360 There's a time and a place to do

00:27:59.320 this.

00:28:00.380 You know, like there's a, this,

00:28:02.140 maybe this will resonate with you.

00:28:05.160 I find this to be a really

00:28:06.220 powerful, um, metaphor here.

00:28:10.360 So I, I'm, I'm sizing you up a

00:28:13.120 little bit.

00:28:13.680 I can't quite see your whole full

00:28:15.360 body, but I'm guessing you

00:28:16.440 exercise and work out.

00:28:17.720 Yes.

00:28:18.880 I do.

00:28:19.720 Yeah, you do.

00:28:20.580 Okay.

00:28:21.000 So why don't you tell me, just

00:28:22.560 humor me for a second.

00:28:23.520 What, what's your, what's your

00:28:24.680 routine when you go to the gym?

00:28:27.940 Uh, I do strength training.

00:28:29.480 So I go six days a week.

00:28:31.540 Uh, I have three upper body

00:28:33.500 days, uh, two, well, two to

00:28:36.060 three upper body days, two to

00:28:37.420 three lower body days, and then,

00:28:39.280 uh, one or two full body days.

00:28:41.260 So that takes me about an hour.

00:28:43.060 And go more granular, go more

00:28:45.540 granular, like on an upper body

00:28:46.900 day, what do you do?

00:28:48.460 Yeah.

00:28:48.980 So I'll do bench press, overhead

00:28:51.380 press, curls, reverse curls,

00:28:54.560 cable curls, probably mix in some

00:28:56.800 abs.

00:28:57.440 Um, okay.

00:28:59.360 Incline press, et cetera.

00:29:01.000 Good, good, good.

00:29:01.740 And you have a goal, which is to

00:29:03.300 be fit, physically fit.

00:29:05.940 And maybe you want your body

00:29:06.860 strong, fit and strong.

00:29:08.500 Maybe you want your body to look

00:29:09.700 at a certain way.

00:29:10.980 Maybe that's secondary.

00:29:12.220 Doesn't matter.

00:29:12.960 You got goals and you have a

00:29:15.760 routine, a fairly sophisticated

00:29:18.280 routine to achieve those goals.

00:29:21.260 I would argue that being

00:29:22.540 emotionally fit is, is quite

00:29:25.160 similar.

00:29:25.600 You would never go to a gym and

00:29:29.040 choose to do one exercise over

00:29:32.340 and over again, right?

00:29:33.920 To meet your goals.

00:29:34.760 No, of course.

00:29:35.500 Yeah.

00:29:35.680 Right.

00:29:35.820 Like, you know, if you'd look

00:29:36.980 like top eye, if all you did is

00:29:39.360 like biceps, like all the time, it

00:29:41.520 would be ridiculous.

00:29:42.460 I mean, it's, it's ridiculous to

00:29:45.180 even suggest this to someone.

00:29:47.040 When I hear about people doing

00:29:49.680 one thing over and over to be

00:29:51.880 emotionally fit in their lives, I

00:29:54.420 experience that same level of, this

00:29:56.920 just doesn't make sense.

00:29:59.220 There are different tools at our

00:30:00.760 disposal, different exercises that

00:30:02.700 exist that are useful for helping us

00:30:05.260 achieve different goals.

00:30:07.060 And I think the sooner we embrace

00:30:09.460 that, the more emotionally fit we're

00:30:11.480 going to become as a society.

00:30:14.380 Man, I'm just going to take a time

00:30:15.740 out from the conversation very

00:30:17.320 quickly.

00:30:18.040 The Men's Forge event is shaping up.

00:30:21.040 It's going to be held just outside of

00:30:23.160 St. Louis on May 1st through the 4th

00:30:25.060 of this year, 2025.

00:30:26.340 And it's going to be an event unlike

00:30:29.000 any other.

00:30:30.460 I've partnered with Larry Hagner, Matt

00:30:33.060 Boudreau, Connor Beaton, Matt

00:30:35.380 Vincent to, I think, revolutionize how

00:30:38.720 conferences and events are going to be

00:30:40.400 held, not just for us, but everybody

00:30:42.080 moving forward.

00:30:43.260 And I want you at the inaugural event.

00:30:46.620 If you've ever asked yourself, how do

00:30:48.460 I find good men to band with?

00:30:50.380 What do I need to do to succeed in

00:30:52.120 life?

00:30:53.040 Or how can I get rid of all my past BS

00:30:56.320 so I can move on?

00:30:57.860 These are all questions that we're

00:30:59.340 going to help you answer.

00:31:00.760 We're going to help you come up with

00:31:02.120 solutions too.

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00:31:04.100 other people who are going to help

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00:31:30.660 themensforge.com.

00:31:32.740 That's themensforge.com.

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00:31:36.900 in May.

00:31:37.240 Again, themensforge.com.

00:31:39.600 We'll see you in May.

00:31:40.580 Looking forward to it.

00:31:41.880 Let me get back to it with my guest,

00:31:43.320 Dr. Ethan Cross.

00:31:47.180 What is the go-to?

00:31:49.020 Like, what is it that most people are

00:31:50.820 like, hey, this is the one exercise I'm

00:31:52.740 going to do?

00:31:53.200 And that's the catch-all.

00:31:54.680 That's everything I need to do.

00:31:56.080 Right now, I think being in the moment,

00:31:58.860 being in the now and meditating is a big

00:32:01.360 one.

00:32:01.980 And I want to be super clear.

00:32:03.820 I'm a pro being in the moment,

00:32:06.560 pro meditation guy.

00:32:08.140 I, against my best wishes when I was

00:32:10.720 five years old, my dad took me to get

00:32:12.880 a mantra to teach me how to meditate.

00:32:15.080 And I've been meditating on and off.

00:32:17.080 My dad did that?

00:32:17.980 My dad did that.

00:32:19.060 He was consumed with transcendental

00:32:21.800 meditation.

00:32:23.520 So do you mind if I ask how old you are?

00:32:26.240 Oh, well, how old do you think I am?

00:32:29.540 Oh, see, like, this is the game.

00:32:31.580 I'm joking.

00:32:32.940 I'm joking.

00:32:33.600 I'm joking.

00:32:34.340 I know your buttons, Ryan.

00:32:36.640 45.

00:32:38.160 So your dad's, what, 65, 70 years old?

00:32:42.020 65.

00:32:42.720 No, no, no.

00:32:43.380 He's 75.

00:32:45.780 70.

00:32:46.200 Okay.

00:32:46.500 So a little bit older on, on, on,

00:32:48.060 when he started having kids, it sounds

00:32:49.620 like, but yeah, um, for a 75 year old

00:32:52.900 man to be interested in that, that seems

00:32:55.160 a little uncommon.

00:32:56.720 Oh, it was incredibly uncommon.

00:32:58.640 So, um, when my, my dad was, um, he,

00:33:03.680 he was, uh, full of, he was like a

00:33:05.420 walking contradiction.

00:33:06.540 I grew up in, in, in Brooklyn, New York,

00:33:09.820 not current Brooklyn, New York, which

00:33:12.420 is this very, um, you know, hip, super

00:33:15.780 cool place.

00:33:16.480 More like, um, you know, watch your back.

00:33:20.360 I can hear the New York in your voice too.

00:33:22.280 Yeah.

00:33:22.660 It comes out every now and again with

00:33:24.280 the emotions and, you know, fighting and,

00:33:27.100 and being mugged.

00:33:28.480 You had to be on guard all the time.

00:33:29.840 And my dad was, you know, taught me how

00:33:34.100 to box and, and, and defend myself and

00:33:36.900 grew up in that culture, that culture of

00:33:39.960 honor in tough guy, Brooklyn, but also

00:33:44.000 loved reading about Eastern philosophy

00:33:45.840 and got consumed with meditation.

00:33:48.560 And so there were those two sides of, uh,

00:33:51.040 to him and when, and he would talk to

00:33:53.120 me about this stuff from the time I was

00:33:54.740 a little kid, terribly, it was painful

00:33:57.040 when he would talk to me about this when

00:33:58.460 I was five years old, but, um, but as I

00:34:01.120 often tell parents, like if you think

00:34:03.920 things are important, you know, and your

00:34:05.620 kids are rolling their eyes as you talk

00:34:07.060 to them about, just keep talking about

00:34:08.420 it.

00:34:08.540 Cause it, it does get up there.

00:34:10.320 It took me to get a mantra when I was

00:34:11.740 five, I wanted like, you know, a bite

00:34:13.560 and, um, I didn't get one.

00:34:15.520 I got a mantra, but it is something that

00:34:17.280 has served me well.

00:34:18.460 It's something I believe in.

00:34:20.220 I think there's great data to support

00:34:22.240 the value of meditation.

00:34:24.340 And sometimes when we find ourselves in a

00:34:26.440 a thought spiral about the past or the

00:34:28.340 future, bringing our awareness back to

00:34:30.820 the moment, this can be really useful,

00:34:33.660 but it's, it's your front squat.

00:34:38.440 It is your bench press.

00:34:39.640 It is going to help you in some contexts

00:34:42.080 achieve certain goals, but you don't

00:34:45.160 want to do this across the board.

00:34:47.560 Like the ability to think not about the

00:34:50.080 future, about the present, but the future

00:34:52.100 and past.

00:34:53.280 This is a source of resilience for people.

00:34:55.940 It's a way of being successful.

00:34:58.220 Thinking about the future allows me to

00:35:00.080 plan.

00:35:01.200 It allows me to prepare.

00:35:02.980 It also allows me to

00:35:04.660 bathe myself in positivity.

00:35:08.020 Like I got a couple of really hard weeks

00:35:09.480 coming up.

00:35:10.240 You know what I'm thinking about?

00:35:11.200 I'm thinking about where we're going on

00:35:12.500 vacation on spring break a couple of

00:35:14.360 months from now.

00:35:15.080 I'm already drinking that pina colada in

00:35:17.700 my mind.

00:35:19.020 That's mental time travel into the future.

00:35:20.940 I can also go back in time.

00:35:23.180 I'm dealing with adversity at a given

00:35:25.420 moment in time.

00:35:26.440 I experienced my fair share like anyone

00:35:28.500 else.

00:35:29.740 Right?

00:35:29.900 It's not just about focusing on my breath

00:35:32.220 right now.

00:35:32.720 It's also thinking about my, my, my

00:35:35.940 grandparents who evaded the Nazis and

00:35:39.420 survived.

00:35:40.120 Right?

00:35:40.340 If they could get through this, guess what?

00:35:42.620 I can deal with what I'm experiencing.

00:35:44.420 So my ability to travel in time in my

00:35:47.580 mind, this is a superpower and being in

00:35:51.080 the moment is just one part of it.

00:35:54.380 I think it's powerful.

00:35:55.580 I was writing down as you were saying

00:35:56.940 that the idea of visualization, for

00:35:58.660 example, is projecting yourself out into

00:36:00.640 a future date or even just reflection

00:36:02.800 or, or legacy.

00:36:04.920 You know, you talk about your, your

00:36:06.500 grandparents.

00:36:07.000 It's like, okay, well, how do I honor

00:36:08.540 my grandparents by living a good life

00:36:10.140 today based on the sacrifices that they

00:36:12.620 had to endure?

00:36:13.960 That's right.

00:36:14.740 Why wouldn't you tap into that?

00:36:17.140 We evolved to travel in time in our

00:36:21.480 minds.

00:36:22.100 Like there are species that likely can't

00:36:24.600 do that.

00:36:25.860 They have consciousness, right?

00:36:27.660 People like other species aren't

00:36:29.200 conscious.

00:36:30.260 There you go.

00:36:31.240 There you go.

00:36:31.740 The other species that are not, they're

00:36:33.280 navigating the world in a, what we'd

00:36:35.520 call stimulus response manner, safety,

00:36:39.340 danger, safety, danger, food, no food,

00:36:41.520 right?

00:36:41.680 Like that's how they are.

00:36:44.260 Intuition early.

00:36:45.720 That's not how we operate.

00:36:47.080 This beautiful brain that lets us do

00:36:50.760 all these gymnastics and lets us do

00:36:52.840 remarkable things.

00:36:53.680 You don't want to shut that down

00:36:54.880 entirely.

00:36:56.300 Sometimes we do want to get a break

00:36:58.720 from, from just getting lost in

00:37:01.080 thought.

00:37:01.420 Of course we want to be in the moment

00:37:03.200 and we want to lose ourself, but there

00:37:05.560 are other times where we want to be

00:37:07.240 nimble and going into the past and the

00:37:08.920 future.

00:37:09.140 So, so, you know, what are the things

00:37:11.060 that annoy me that it's when we, when

00:37:13.060 we, it's whenever we say, what's the

00:37:15.340 one thing you should do?

00:37:17.500 Because there are no one things.

00:37:19.140 I'll link this back to some data.

00:37:20.780 We did this, these studies during COVID.

00:37:23.140 We wanted to know like, what are the

00:37:25.300 tools or tool that is helping people the

00:37:28.920 most when it comes to their daily

00:37:30.680 anxiety?

00:37:31.220 First thing we found is in general, on a

00:37:34.340 day-to-day basis, people don't do one

00:37:36.140 thing.

00:37:36.740 It's much more similar to like you go

00:37:38.260 into the gym.

00:37:39.160 They do between three and four different

00:37:40.500 things to manage their anxiety.

00:37:42.600 And the other thing we learned is that

00:37:44.420 there are multiple routes to being

00:37:48.180 successful when it comes to emotion

00:37:49.820 regulation, just as there are multiple

00:37:51.660 routes to being successful when it comes

00:37:53.140 to physical fitness.

00:37:54.040 The three or four things that person A

00:37:57.140 did on day one and was successful in

00:38:00.620 helping them deal with their anxiety were

00:38:02.540 really different from the things that

00:38:04.680 person B did.

00:38:05.880 The way I regulate my emotions is very,

00:38:09.200 very different from the way my best

00:38:10.920 friend and my wife regulate their

00:38:13.500 emotions.

00:38:14.820 That sounded bad because it just made it

00:38:16.780 feel like my wife is not my best friend.

00:38:18.780 That is not what I meant to say.

00:38:20.680 She's one of my best friends, but, but

00:38:22.520 you get the point.

00:38:23.120 I'm making a joke there.

00:38:24.040 Right.

00:38:24.600 Like, so, I mean, roles are different.

00:38:26.300 Like you can have, I don't think your

00:38:28.480 wife should be your best.

00:38:30.040 Again, it's kind of nuanced a little

00:38:31.720 bit, but you're, you should have a best

00:38:33.660 friend who's a male friend and you should

00:38:35.560 have a wife who's also a best friend.

00:38:37.500 Like I get what you're saying.

00:38:38.960 Yeah.

00:38:39.360 So, so, but the point here is that it's a

00:38:43.100 tool belt, lots of different tools.

00:38:45.780 Let's not limit ourselves to just one.

00:38:50.380 I want to get into some of those tools, but

00:38:52.420 I did have a question about the way that

00:38:54.680 we, as men generally express our emotions

00:38:58.540 versus our female counterparts.

00:39:00.760 I would imagine that the way that men

00:39:03.820 generally express our emotions is probably

00:39:05.980 more through raising our voice, being

00:39:08.340 violent, trying to be intimidating, et

00:39:10.360 cetera, et cetera.

00:39:11.420 And women are probably a little bit more

00:39:14.200 when they're expressing those emotions or

00:39:16.960 feeling upset about something, probably a

00:39:18.860 little bit more conniving, a little more

00:39:21.440 calculated, a little bit more going around

00:39:25.380 back, like gossiping, that sort of thing.

00:39:27.420 Am I off base on those assessments?

00:39:29.960 A little bit.

00:39:31.380 Like, so some, some of the stereotypes that

00:39:34.040 exist have been shown to be, to, to not be

00:39:39.160 upheld.

00:39:39.700 I'll give you an example.

00:39:41.100 There's this very strong notion that men

00:39:44.080 don't, um, don't like to talk about their

00:39:47.320 feelings.

00:39:47.740 They keep it all inside.

00:39:48.940 This is really where we started.

00:39:50.860 Um, but there's been research on this, which

00:39:52.920 shows that when people, when human beings

00:39:56.740 experience strong emotions, they are very

00:40:00.000 motivated to express those emotions to

00:40:03.800 others.

00:40:04.360 And there's reasons for that.

00:40:05.920 It's because we've got these two kinds of

00:40:08.140 needs.

00:40:08.420 We've got social needs.

00:40:10.180 We want to get, feel connected to the, those

00:40:12.700 around us.

00:40:13.480 We're stronger when we're connected with

00:40:15.620 others.

00:40:16.160 Our chances of survival are stronger when

00:40:19.160 we're connected with others.

00:40:20.560 And then number two, we've got these

00:40:22.360 cognitive needs, these needs to help us

00:40:24.540 work through our experiences.

00:40:26.600 Um, there are norms that are out there.

00:40:29.600 And I think where we started today taps into

00:40:32.380 some of these norms, these sometimes unspoken

00:40:36.220 rules about how we should operate.

00:40:40.180 Right.

00:40:41.040 So men shouldn't reveal vulnerability and it's

00:40:44.160 okay for women to feel vulnerability, but

00:40:46.640 sometimes those norms don't actually track with

00:40:50.760 how we are actually built.

00:40:53.700 And, and in the context of expression like

00:40:56.640 that, that seems to be the case.

00:40:58.660 Uh, I can tell you that I have a lot of close

00:41:01.160 friends, some who on the surface would come

00:41:03.060 across as very masculine who, um, who do express

00:41:08.840 their emotions.

00:41:09.480 Um, not, not across the board in the way that

00:41:13.640 I think you were describing earlier that you

00:41:15.500 find to be a little bit, um, distressing or

00:41:18.660 uncomfortable, but they're strategic.

00:41:20.720 Hey, can I talk to you about something?

00:41:22.560 And we have a conversation about it and they're

00:41:26.080 stronger and our relationship is stronger for

00:41:28.380 it.

00:41:28.580 Um, and I think you see that happening actually

00:41:31.080 in, in friend groups, um, uh, of both

00:41:34.600 genders.

00:41:36.200 I, I think I was mostly talking though about

00:41:38.820 the, for lack of a better term, the toxic

00:41:43.240 expression of emotion.

00:41:44.640 So not a healthy way, which is a friend coming

00:41:48.180 because I've done that too, where I've had

00:41:50.260 situations in the past, in the past couple of

00:41:52.220 weeks, I've called a couple of buddies in fact

00:41:54.140 and said, Hey, I'm dealing with this right now.

00:41:55.480 You got a minute.

00:41:56.580 Yeah.

00:41:57.060 And that's a healthy expression, but I think an

00:41:59.340 unhealthy expression, you tell me if I'm wrong

00:42:01.720 is really not an attempt to fulfill our need to

00:42:06.600 express our emotions, but to meet our need,

00:42:11.040 whatever that need might be.

00:42:12.300 And so we'll, if it's toxic, we will manipulate

00:42:15.720 and men will manipulate through strength and

00:42:18.460 aggression.

00:42:19.320 Women will manipulate using conniving and back

00:42:24.840 stabbing again.

00:42:26.240 I'm just using general, I could be way off,

00:42:29.180 but that's what I see generally.

00:42:30.720 I'll strip away some of, some of the, um, so

00:42:34.500 there is some evidence that, um, that men will

00:42:38.520 be more externalizing and, um, uh, act out

00:42:45.160 more and women will co-ruminate more like

00:42:49.220 about things.

00:42:50.660 You said it more eloquently than I could.

00:42:52.280 Get lost.

00:42:53.020 Yeah.

00:42:53.540 No, cause I know what you're, I, I, I think

00:42:55.620 I know what you're saying.

00:42:56.520 I'm just stripping away some of the, the, the

00:42:58.960 other language, but so there is, there, there

00:43:01.020 are some gender differences there in terms of

00:43:03.100 some of those behaviors and the way I describe

00:43:05.720 it is, um, there are some traps that we all

00:43:11.800 fall into when it comes to managing our emotional

00:43:14.660 lives and opportunities to, to get better.

00:43:17.580 And it's not the case that any one gender

00:43:20.120 suffers more from those traps than others per se.

00:43:25.760 They're just different ones that we want to be

00:43:27.800 aware of.

00:43:28.300 What, what would you say are the traps that

00:43:31.440 men fall into then?

00:43:33.340 I think men are to your characterization a

00:43:36.480 little bit more likely to, um, to externalize

00:43:40.140 things to, and by externalizing, we're talking

00:43:42.600 about like getting it out with frustration in,

00:43:45.800 in a more aggressive way than, well, I mean,

00:43:48.400 something as simple as I imagine that most of

00:43:51.340 the holes in people's houses are a direct result

00:43:54.140 of a man putting his fist or elbow through the

00:43:56.620 wall relative to the female counterpart.

00:43:59.780 I mean, I just, it's just the reality.

00:44:03.840 That like externalizing would be a way of being

00:44:06.400 more outwardly aggressive in that manner.

00:44:09.860 Right.

00:44:10.380 Yeah.

00:44:10.620 That makes sense.

00:44:11.700 That makes sense.

00:44:12.480 What are, so the biggest trap that you're

00:44:14.420 saying is we, as men need to be cautious of

00:44:18.860 how we externalize our anger or frustration or

00:44:23.000 resentment or any of these things that you would

00:44:25.900 generally consider, and I'm using quotations

00:44:27.680 deliberately, I don't believe this, but this is

00:44:29.920 what people think negative emotions.

00:44:34.280 Yes.

00:44:34.720 I think what we want to do is, um, I think men,

00:44:39.680 we want to think about, and this is men, people,

00:44:42.100 we need to think about when are, um, are our

00:44:47.040 emotions undermining the goals that we have.

00:44:51.020 So, um, like if you think, what is the definition

00:44:55.000 of self-regulation?

00:44:57.800 It is our ability to align our thoughts, feelings,

00:45:02.280 and behaviors with our goals.

00:45:05.180 Now I'm hopeful that people listening have healthy

00:45:09.120 goals.

00:45:09.800 They want to be well-adjusted in good

00:45:12.500 relationships, live high quality lives that are

00:45:15.360 filled with, you know, flourishing friendships and

00:45:18.800 they're full of health and they're succeeding at work

00:45:21.900 and life and letting your emotions run wild.

00:45:26.400 Research shows undermines your ability to achieve

00:45:29.940 those kinds of outcomes.

00:45:32.180 And so if your goal is to be more constrained when you

00:45:37.140 might have the desire to, to lash out, then we've got

00:45:41.060 to give you tools to help you meet that goal.

00:45:43.900 That's what this is all about.

00:45:45.080 Say, say that for me one more time.

00:45:48.560 Say, so emotional regulation is what define that for

00:45:51.180 me again.

00:45:51.600 It's about, it's about aligning our thoughts, feelings,

00:45:56.180 and behaviors with our goals.

00:46:01.540 Right.

00:46:02.100 So sometimes, so let me just like, so we often think

00:46:04.140 about emotional regulation is just clamping down,

00:46:09.000 minimizing the intensity and duration of a response.

00:46:12.900 And sometimes it can be about maximizing it, right?

00:46:16.740 So sometimes you want to get revved up before a big

00:46:19.500 event, or if you've had some victory, you want to

00:46:22.520 savor that.

00:46:23.860 So in that context, being effective at emotional

00:46:26.840 regulation is about staying in that state.

00:46:29.740 In other cases, emotional regulation is doing the

00:46:32.180 opposite, minimizing intensity, minimizing shortening

00:46:36.120 duration.

00:46:37.220 So it's about goals.

00:46:38.620 It's about linking this to goals.

00:46:40.060 Goals are an essential piece to this puzzle of how to be

00:46:44.340 good at emotional regulation.

00:46:46.040 Because without the goals, then what are we talking

00:46:48.460 about?

00:46:48.820 We're talking about just finding ways to not feel anything

00:46:53.340 any of the time.

00:46:54.440 That doesn't make much sense.

00:46:56.540 Yeah.

00:46:56.980 This is, this is interesting because I, I spend time

00:47:01.100 studying other people, whether it's public speakers or

00:47:04.680 influencers, which I don't necessarily like that term, but

00:47:07.460 everybody understands what it is like, and, and I see, you

00:47:11.800 know, somebody who gets on stage to speak in front of an

00:47:14.300 audience of 10,000, you can't say that that person is

00:47:18.880 non-expressive of their emotions.

00:47:21.380 They actually know very well how to use their emotion, whether

00:47:26.160 it's pauses, uh, inflections in their voice, maybe even tears, uh,

00:47:32.940 maybe yelling, maybe bringing their voice, the volume down in

00:47:37.160 order to elicit a certain response.

00:47:39.280 In other words, to manipulate.

00:47:41.260 And I know it has a negative connotation.

00:47:43.080 That's not what I'm saying, but maybe the better word is to

00:47:46.280 influence other people.

00:47:48.140 That's right.

00:47:48.920 We are, we are managing ourselves, but we're also managing other

00:47:53.780 people's emotions too, right?

00:47:56.000 So there are some moments in a presentation where I want to, I

00:47:59.600 may want to make people laugh and feel happy.

00:48:02.320 And there are other, other times where I may want them to

00:48:04.980 recognize that there's some toughness in the world and I may

00:48:09.620 want to have them feel a little bit sadder.

00:48:12.280 Sometimes if I want to get a group to get some practice dealing

00:48:17.180 with like using different regulatory tools, I may cue them to

00:48:21.840 experience a little bit of anxiety, right?

00:48:23.620 Like as a test case, so they could play with it.

00:48:25.700 So yeah, we are, we're constantly thinking about our own

00:48:29.740 emotions, but other people's emotions too.

00:48:31.860 I'll give you, I'll give you just an example.

00:48:33.260 I was just talking about with someone else that most people

00:48:35.440 probably don't even think about.

00:48:37.960 You know, I spent some time in my book talking about sensory

00:48:40.640 experiences as this tool for pushing around our emotions and

00:48:45.060 other people's really easily.

00:48:46.460 Like think about any airport, international airport you go to, the

00:48:52.440 duty-free shops, like there's a ton of perfume and cologne in

00:48:57.280 there.

00:48:57.720 Like, what is that doing?

00:48:59.260 Who are you wearing that for?

00:49:01.380 This is a tool that you can use to impact how other people feel

00:49:06.340 about you when they just walk past you.

00:49:09.860 That's an, you know, companies do this.

00:49:11.520 They, hotels will pipe scents through their ventilation to get

00:49:15.940 you to feel positive.

00:49:17.880 I went to a big concert a couple of months ago.

00:49:21.000 There was one person on the stage with an emotion regulation

00:49:25.020 tool, a guitar that was powerfully manipulating tens of thousands,

00:49:32.000 influencing to use your word softer, a concert.

00:49:35.960 This is like an emotion regulation experience, right?

00:49:40.280 Like, why do we go there?

00:49:41.900 So, so to your point, yeah, all the time we're impacting other

00:49:45.240 people's emotions up or down, left and right.

00:49:48.900 It is interesting because I think there's a lot of men who would

00:49:51.620 say, well, I don't care about what other people think, but I'm

00:49:54.620 looking at the distinction between you and me.

00:49:57.980 You shaved your face today.

00:49:59.860 I did not.

00:50:00.880 You have books behind you for a reason.

00:50:03.560 I have this lighting behind me for a reason.

00:50:05.600 I'm wearing a dark t-shirt for a reason.

00:50:07.700 You're wearing a nice casual blazer with a t-shirt under for a

00:50:12.120 reason, but people don't often take that into consideration.

00:50:16.140 You got it.

00:50:16.820 Although I'll point out, I did not shave.

00:50:19.340 Just for you, Ryan.

00:50:20.040 Okay, well, fair enough.

00:50:20.600 For a reason.

00:50:22.060 For a reason.

00:50:23.780 No, I say this all the time.

00:50:25.240 This is, of course, we are, this is about, you know, I think it's easy to

00:50:29.480 say we don't care about what anyone else thinks.

00:50:32.880 Um, this is not true.

00:50:36.160 We are implicitly taking into account what other people think about us and managing their

00:50:42.680 impressions every day from the moment we decide whether to shave or not and how to dress and

00:50:48.920 how to organize our spaces.

00:50:50.980 There are some people for whom we care more about that than others, but we are a social

00:50:58.560 species.

00:50:59.900 And I think it's easy to also, you know, I think there's this like, well, if you care

00:51:06.780 what other people think you're weak, because you don't have self-confidence, right?

00:51:11.460 Like, I don't think that's actually true.

00:51:15.260 I think that's about the right, it's a matter of the right people.

00:51:17.780 It's about being wise in how you skillfully navigate the world, right?

00:51:23.420 You want to navigate this world to be successful, however you define that.

00:51:29.380 And other people, you're going to encounter them as you navigate this world.

00:51:33.520 So you got to take into account how they're going to react towards you because they often

00:51:40.820 have some implications for whether you're going to be successful or not in your goals.

00:51:46.420 Well, and I actually think it's maybe more foundational than that.

00:51:51.720 You actually care about them.

00:51:54.580 In many, many contexts, you do.

00:51:57.300 Absolutely.

00:51:58.600 Right?

00:51:58.820 Like, I think, for example, I actually really care what my kids think about me because I

00:52:03.960 care about them.

00:52:04.920 I care about what my girlfriend thinks of me because I care about her.

00:52:08.000 I care about what the people listening to this podcast think about me because I care about

00:52:12.300 them.

00:52:12.540 Like, I do care about them, so much so that I'm willing to be intentional about how I put

00:52:18.940 myself in front of them to serve them at maximum capacity.

00:52:24.480 Nothing to add.

00:52:25.740 I completely agree.

00:52:29.800 When do you think, though, that, because we talked a little bit about regulating your own

00:52:34.540 emotions, and we also talked about being aware of other people's emotions.

00:52:38.560 When do you think, though, that it becomes a problem?

00:52:41.760 Is there a line in the sand where it's a problem that you're worried about what other

00:52:47.480 people's emotions or experiences are?

00:52:49.600 So, yes, you can be over-regulated, over-controlled.

00:52:59.960 And, you know, if you find, for example, that your attempts to regulate your emotions are

00:53:07.640 getting in the way of you living the life you want to live, like, that's a clear sign,

00:53:13.960 right?

00:53:14.380 That you're not being effective, you're being overly regulated to the point where you feel

00:53:18.780 suffocated or constrained, or you're not healthy, or you don't have great relationships because

00:53:25.380 you are so over-controlled and of yourself and maybe other people, too.

00:53:29.060 So there's a sweet spot here.

00:53:30.620 And sometimes, let me go back one step.

00:53:35.580 So, you know, there's this idea that we, as human beings, are constantly trying to conserve

00:53:43.560 resources, right?

00:53:44.920 We're trying to expend the minimal amount of brain resources, of physiological resources

00:53:51.860 at any given moment in time, because that's just efficient.

00:53:55.940 It makes sense.

00:53:57.320 Regulating often requires resources.

00:54:00.420 It consumes it.

00:54:01.160 So it is not always, but often effortful.

00:54:05.860 So to be regulating all the time is likely to be pretty demanding and-

00:54:13.260 It's exhausting.

00:54:13.900 Exhausting.

00:54:14.800 You got it.

00:54:15.340 We said it at the same time.

00:54:16.200 It's exhausting.

00:54:16.880 I had a friend who was really dealing with some hardship recently.

00:54:21.100 And, you know, I was trying to help him through it.

00:54:23.320 And, and I, and it's been going well, but what I've often heard him say is, man, this

00:54:29.720 is just, I'm so tired.

00:54:31.760 I'm just exhausted, constantly trying to reframe and, and, and, and, and divert my attention

00:54:38.660 and do X, Y, and Z.

00:54:39.560 I'm just tired.

00:54:40.760 So we don't want to be regulating all the time.

00:54:43.680 We want to get back to that point of, of, of, of living our life, of taking things as it

00:54:48.440 comes and, and trying to achieve, not achieve, I don't know what achieve means, but achieve

00:54:54.360 those flow-like states where we just feel like time is passing, we're immersed, we're,

00:55:00.640 you know, like that can feel really great being in the moment, but we want the ability

00:55:05.120 when that red button in our brain is pressed that says, Hey, you need to regulate in one

00:55:10.920 direction or another.

00:55:11.740 We want to know what to do when that happens.

00:55:15.400 And that's where science provides us with some tips.

00:55:19.260 What do you, what do you do when you feel yourself to that point?

00:55:23.540 Maybe you're over-regulating yourself and you're not being as expressive, like you're

00:55:27.360 not sharing your needs and desires with other people because I don't know, maybe you think

00:55:33.040 you're a burden.

00:55:33.680 I think that's probably what a lot of guys might think.

00:55:36.480 But also you're so worried about, is this person comfortable?

00:55:41.380 Do they, are they okay?

00:55:43.200 Like, are they feeling out of sorts?

00:55:46.300 It's how does a man begin to like, what tactics can he employ?

00:55:51.160 This is something that I've heard a lot with, um, nice guys, like the term nice guys, where

00:55:57.160 they're so concerned about manipulating their own behavior at the expense of their self in

00:56:02.320 order to appease other people.

00:56:03.780 What does a guy like that do so that he no longer is as concerned with regulating other

00:56:10.140 people as, as he should be?

00:56:13.600 Cause I just think, like you said, that's exhausting.

00:56:15.580 Uh, so, so just to make sure I got the question.

00:56:19.520 So what, what does someone do when they find themselves just totally depleted, uh, because

00:56:23.580 they're over, over-regulating, uh, regulating themselves and worrying about other people.

00:56:28.660 So even regulating other people's emotions.

00:56:30.380 I think that's a great, you know, so, um, so there are tools for regulation that you can

00:56:36.000 use on your own.

00:56:37.020 There are people tools, our relationships with other people.

00:56:40.220 Other people can be helpful.

00:56:41.380 They can help regulate ourselves, right?

00:56:44.120 Conversations, um, and then there are environmental tools.

00:56:48.080 Um, for me, when it gets to the point where I'm not sure if I'm regulating effectively or

00:56:54.040 maybe too much, that's usually my cue to tap into the network, you know, tap into that trusted

00:56:59.500 network of advisors who are just really invaluable for help, helping me put things in perspective

00:57:05.720 for helping me, um, recalibrate for calling me out when maybe I'm doing, um, wacky things.

00:57:15.020 Uh, you know, I, I remember a couple of weeks ago, um, I was concerned about something.

00:57:20.320 I articulated it to a friend and it's like, nope, that's, that's magical thinking.

00:57:26.040 No way.

00:57:27.020 Adios.

00:57:27.680 You know, and that was like, just a, oh, oh, that's right.

00:57:29.980 And it put me back on track.

00:57:31.240 So because you expressed it as what you're saying, you've, you vocalized it and then

00:57:35.280 you heard it and you're like, okay, that's crazy.

00:57:37.840 Like, that's right.

00:57:38.600 That's right.

00:57:39.200 That's right.

00:57:39.740 And so for me, that other people are like a layer two intervention for me.

00:57:46.220 Like when I'm not sure how I'm operating myself, I think, so I pick up the phone and I've got

00:57:51.100 a great, I call them my board of advisors.

00:57:54.020 Like I got a great board of, of, of trusted friends, loved ones, colleagues who, who can

00:58:01.420 help when that uncertainty arises.

00:58:06.200 You talked about, um, environmental regulators, things that you can do with your environment.

00:58:12.720 What would you suggest there?

00:58:13.720 A couple of things, um, creating order.

00:58:19.640 So cleaning up, organizing it's, it's interesting always to me, cause I, I tend not to be a very

00:58:24.400 organized guy in my physical space.

00:58:26.540 But, um, we know that when you're not experiencing order in your minds, because your emotions are

00:58:31.860 running, taking over, creating order around you compensates, it's called compensatory control.

00:58:38.240 So order around you to provide some order up here.

00:58:40.960 Easy thing to do, um, enhancing your exposure to green spaces, going for a walk in a safe,

00:58:46.360 natural setting is cognitively restorative.

00:58:49.020 Lots of research.

00:58:50.440 I like this.

00:58:51.760 That was really eyeopening for this city boy, but I have, uh, you know, implemented that, um,

00:58:58.640 thinking about the places that you are positively attached to.

00:59:04.360 You know, we talk about getting attached to people, loved ones in our lives, friends, and

00:59:09.700 how those relationships can be a source of resilience.

00:59:12.780 Well, we also get attached to places.

00:59:15.440 And when we are in, in places that we are, we are securely attached to being in those physical

00:59:22.720 spaces and provide a sense of security and control.

00:59:26.460 I remember when my kids were little, whenever they felt sick or something bad happened at

00:59:30.900 school, they would say, I just want to go into my room at home.

00:59:33.980 Cause that was a place that was secure for them.

00:59:37.200 There are places all around us that we have those positive attachments to.

00:59:40.700 And those can be like seeking out those spaces can also be a source of resilience.

00:59:45.180 The flip side is also true.

00:59:46.680 Of course, there are places we are negatively attached to and you want to avoid those as

00:59:52.060 well.

00:59:52.720 And people, right?

00:59:54.480 And people.

00:59:55.440 Absolutely.

00:59:55.880 You know, as funny as you were talking about your kids being sick, I, I wasn't taken to

01:00:00.800 a place.

01:00:01.300 I was actually taken to a food item, you know, where you, your mom makes you soup.

01:00:06.760 Yeah.

01:00:07.600 Like soup, is it a cure for the cold or the flu, but for some reason it just feels better.

01:00:13.620 Well, and, and so this is a kind of, I call that in the book, a sensory shifter.

01:00:18.520 And there are a couple of ways that that can help.

01:00:20.440 Number one, um, there are some, if it is not putrid tasting or smelling, you know, if it

01:00:26.960 tastes good, there's some positivity that comes from that, but our senses are also linked

01:00:32.180 with our memories.

01:00:33.520 And so if you have positive associations with certain sensory experiences, like soup and

01:00:41.000 your, your loving mom, let's say like that, those memories become activated in ways that

01:00:47.000 can also help promote positive emotional states.

01:00:50.440 Yeah, man, this stuff's so interesting to me.

01:00:53.520 Cause I think it's most interesting because like I said, eight, nine years ago, I, I would

01:00:59.180 have, I would have said it differently.

01:01:00.380 I think I'm a little more tempered in my approach and, and I like what you're coming from is

01:01:04.180 that we're not just going to blab all of our stuff to everybody.

01:01:07.120 That's ridiculous.

01:01:08.320 It's counterintuitive, it's counterproductive, and it's just not a good idea, but I like this

01:01:13.320 moderate approach of, Hey, feel your emotions, express them when appropriate or how

01:01:19.420 we're appropriate and then use them as tools to improve your life.

01:01:22.880 How do, how do negative emotion, like, again, do you believe in negative emotions?

01:01:27.880 Let me ask you that.

01:01:28.660 Are there such a thing as negative emotions?

01:01:31.760 Um, yes, there are.

01:01:34.180 Okay.

01:01:34.440 Let me, let me, let me, let me define it for you, but I'll also say you just perfectly

01:01:37.920 summarize, I think what the, you know, what this book is all about.

01:01:41.840 And, and those points are, are true for men and for women.

01:01:46.020 You know, this is all about trying to be flexible with how we manage the curve balls that life

01:01:52.580 deals us.

01:01:53.320 We all get them.

01:01:54.540 And it's about finding the right tools to, to manage those curve balls.

01:01:59.000 Um, negative emotions.

01:02:01.420 Do I think, and there are such negative emotions.

01:02:03.720 I think there are negative emotions in the sense that certain kinds of emotional experiences

01:02:09.000 don't feel good.

01:02:10.940 They feel bad.

01:02:12.420 Um, I think anxiety feels bad.

01:02:16.320 I think sadness feels bad.

01:02:18.900 I think anger usually doesn't feel great.

01:02:23.140 Um, so in that sense, I think they're negative, but negative doesn't mean harmful.

01:02:29.000 Or bad for you per se.

01:02:31.920 Negative emotions in the right proportions are, are just fine.

01:02:38.060 It is when they are experienced too intensely or too long that they become harmful.

01:02:45.040 So negative is not the same as harmful.

01:02:49.740 I'll, I'll, I'll give you another way of making sense of that.

01:02:52.800 Um, like, have you ever benefited from critical, negative feedback on yourself, your work, something

01:03:02.840 you've done?

01:03:03.540 Of course.

01:03:04.120 Of course.

01:03:05.520 Negative by it's negative by definition, right?

01:03:08.760 Like you did not do something well, but it is useful because you can learn from that.

01:03:15.800 So, so negative doesn't mean bad.

01:03:19.740 That's what the point here is.

01:03:21.760 Yeah.

01:03:22.480 I'm glad you clarified.

01:03:23.620 Cause I think in, in concept, we agree the language maybe is a little different.

01:03:28.640 Cause I would say there's no, no such thing as a negative emotion.

01:03:31.760 For example, anger, anger is not a neck.

01:03:35.520 You might feel bad to your point, but I don't think it's a negative thing.

01:03:38.820 I think we're saying the same thing.

01:03:40.200 We're just saying it differently.

01:03:41.740 Yeah.

01:03:42.280 Which is, which I, which I think is, you know, earlier in the interview too, I think it was

01:03:45.720 similar there where oftentimes find, I think the underlying meaning that you and I are exchanging

01:03:52.220 in this interview is, um, is there.

01:03:54.740 And sometimes the words are just different.

01:03:57.060 Right.

01:03:57.580 Yeah.

01:03:57.960 Well, I think that's why these conversations are so powerful.

01:04:00.560 You know, you put, if I were to put, for example, there's no such thing as a negative

01:04:04.660 emotion on, on a, on a Twitter, like a tweet, for example, you might come in and say,

01:04:09.720 well, that's not true.

01:04:11.080 Yes.

01:04:11.760 Yes.

01:04:12.040 But the reality is we have a conversation like this.

01:04:14.620 We might absolutely agree.

01:04:15.980 We're just using different words.

01:04:17.840 You know, it's funny you say that.

01:04:18.960 Cause I, I did put a post to that effect, um, in the past and, um, and someone did say

01:04:25.720 that actually isn't true.

01:04:27.000 And then when they elaborated, it was very clear that actually we're, we're saying the

01:04:31.760 same things.

01:04:32.340 And so I think that gets to a broader point.

01:04:34.580 And, and what I appreciate about you as an interviewer is that there's this willingness

01:04:40.300 to, to really understand what the underlying meaning here is rather than just get caught

01:04:47.620 up in the words, which for various reasons aren't often eye to eye.

01:04:53.600 Yeah.

01:04:54.080 I think a lot, a lot more people are probably closer in spiritual beliefs and political

01:04:59.400 alignment.

01:04:59.920 Then, then we would think because we're just using different words and we're doing it in

01:05:04.400 140 characters at a time.

01:05:06.260 Yeah.

01:05:06.800 And if we, and you know, this gets to a slightly different though, similarly emotional, um,

01:05:11.880 topic, if we don't try to find that common ground and those points of intersection, and

01:05:18.200 we just, you know, I think there's a temptation that when we don't use the same words, we just

01:05:23.140 stop talking to each other.

01:05:24.500 I think that's what really gets us into trouble.

01:05:27.920 It is interesting because I've, I've thought about this and we could get a little deep and,

01:05:32.480 and, and we won't necessarily in this conversation, but words are just sounds like it's just, it's

01:05:38.780 just noises we're making.

01:05:40.020 And it's interesting to me that we can become so emotionally charged through the noises that

01:05:46.740 mammals are making because of the meaning and the intent and everything else that we

01:05:53.100 put behind it.

01:05:53.980 So it's just, it's a very interesting thing to me.

01:05:57.120 Well, um, yeah, I mean, it's wild when you think about it in those, in those ways for sure.

01:06:03.960 And I think just this, just the reminder, you know, and, and hopefully this conversation

01:06:08.800 can be a reminder of folks is to always try to dig a little bit deeper to understand the

01:06:14.100 meaning as you and I have both done in this interview.

01:06:18.600 Ethan, how do we connect with you?

01:06:20.100 Obviously the book is coming out.

01:06:21.700 It's called shift managing your emotions.

01:06:23.280 So they don't manage you.

01:06:24.560 How do we connect with you?

01:06:25.900 Pick up a copy of the book and anything else you might want to share.

01:06:28.360 The easiest way to connect, the easiest way to connect with me is to check out my website,

01:06:33.160 www.ethancross with a K, K-R-O-S-S.com.

01:06:38.040 And, um, there's information about me and my book and, um, I hope you find it interesting.

01:06:44.240 And you, I appreciate you joining me.

01:06:46.000 Yeah, no, I, I know guys will, if they read the book and most importantly, they apply it.

01:06:50.740 And, uh, this is an area that I think not only men who listen, but myself as well could really

01:06:57.100 work on improving.

01:06:57.940 So really appreciate your insight, really appreciate your work and, uh, anxious to get this out

01:07:02.600 to the guys.

01:07:02.980 Thanks for joining me today.

01:07:04.340 Hey, thanks for having me.

01:07:05.260 Appreciate it.

01:07:07.760 All right, man, Dr. Ethan Cross, as I said, to begin with, we are all emotional beings.

01:07:12.580 I think, you know, that you'd have to be a little bit dense, frankly, to not realize that.

01:07:17.760 I know we try to hide it and try to pretend that it doesn't exist and try to put it away.

01:07:22.620 But the reality is, is that we are all emotional.

01:07:25.960 The only difference is whether or not you can control them.

01:07:29.300 You can regulate them.

01:07:30.760 You can use the tool of emotions to produce good outcomes for yourself.

01:07:36.080 And, uh, this book shift managing your emotions so they don't manage you is going to be a big

01:07:41.560 help.

01:07:41.800 So pick up a copy of his book, uh, head over to his Instagram page and Twitter and make sure

01:07:46.520 you're following him and connecting with him.

01:07:48.240 And then if you would, a big favor for me, uh, just take a screenshot real quick right

01:07:52.420 now and post it up, post it on Facebook, Twitter, X, Instagram, YouTube, Tik TOK.

01:08:00.380 Some of those are a little obsolete now, but, uh, post it wherever you can, because we are

01:08:05.980 looking to build this movement in 2025.

01:08:08.040 And it's the hundreds of thousands of men who listen to this podcast that make a difference

01:08:13.260 that get this information into other people's heads and hands and hearts.

01:08:18.840 And, uh, that's my ask for you today.

01:08:20.460 Also check out themensforge.com May 1st through the 4th and join me and the, uh, handful of

01:08:26.760 other guys that we have involved in that project.

01:08:28.420 It's going to be very exciting.

01:08:29.760 I'm, I cannot wait for this to come.

01:08:31.380 It can't happen soon enough.

01:08:32.320 So it's themensforge.com.

01:08:35.320 All right, guys, those are your marching orders.

01:08:37.280 We will be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become

01:08:42.580 the man you are meant to be.

01:08:46.000 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:08:48.840 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:08:52.660 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:09:02.320 We'll be right back.

Order of Man - January 28, 2025

DR. ETHAN KROSS ｜ How Men Manage Their Emotions

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