Order of Man - June 13, 2023


DR. HENRY CLOUD ｜ How to Earn and Restore Trust

Topics
trust trust building and erosion trust building in communication ability trustworthiness trust muscle character trust and communication patterns repairing trust
Hosted by
Ryan Michler
Guests
Henry Cloud
Mentioned
Mark Empathy John Goodman Chris Voss Broken Brian
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Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 7 minutes

Words per minute

178.31

Word count

11,983

Sentence count

911

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Toxicity

7

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Trust is something all of us know we need to build in order to have influence with those we love and whom we're called to lead. But it's also incredibly difficult to build and even harder to repair once you've undermined it. And unfortunately, as challenging as trust is to build, it's incredibly easy to tear apart, never to be seen again. My guest today is Dr. Henry Cloud, author of his new book, Trust: Knowing When To Give It, When To Withhold It, How To Earn It, And How To Fix It When It Gets Broken.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Trust is something all of us know we need to build in order to have influence with those
00:00:04.740 we love and whom we're called to lead, but it's also incredibly difficult to build and
00:00:09.380 even harder to repair once you've undermined it.
00:00:13.240 And unfortunately, as challenging as trust is to build, it's incredibly easy to tear
00:00:18.560 apart, never to be seen again.
00:00:20.820 My guest today is Dr. Henry Cloud, author of his latest book, Trust, Knowing When to
00:00:24.920 Give It, When to Withhold It, How to Earn It, and How to Fix It When It Gets Broken.
00:00:29.420 Today, we talk about trust being a learned skill, the process for repairing trust, if
00:00:34.880 you were to break it, five factors that drive the trust system, trust as a long game versus
00:00:39.760 a short game, and how trust fuels every single aspect of life.
00:00:44.520 You're a man of action.
00:00:45.860 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:50.220 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:00:54.300 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:00:59.720 This is your life.
00:01:00.800 This is who you are.
00:01:02.220 This is who you will become.
00:01:03.940 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:09.140 Gentlemen, what is going on today?
00:01:10.460 My name is Ryan Michler.
00:01:11.960 I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.
00:01:15.860 I've been really, really looking forward to this conversation.
00:01:18.700 I have been trying to get Dr. Cloud on the podcast for years.
00:01:22.940 He just came out with a new book, and so the timing was right for him.
00:01:26.280 The timing was right for us, and I'm very excited to release this conversation to you.
00:01:31.120 Before we get into it, I just want to mention, if you're new here, this is a podcast dedicated
00:01:35.440 to helping you become a more proficient, capable, strong, assertive, courageous man.
00:01:41.580 So we've got this podcast.
00:01:43.360 We've got our exclusive brotherhood, The Iron Council, which, by the way, opens on Thursday.
00:01:49.280 The 15th of June.
00:01:50.700 So make sure you sign up at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil to learn more about what
00:01:55.600 it is and also be notified when we open up in two days.
00:01:58.600 And then we have other things like our events and merchandise and whatever we can do to support
00:02:04.100 you as a man to help you become a better father, husband, business owner, community
00:02:08.360 leader.
00:02:08.820 That's what we're all about here.
00:02:09.960 So glad you're tuning in.
00:02:11.900 And again, make sure you check out The Iron Council because that's the advanced version
00:02:15.960 of what you're getting here.
00:02:17.200 You're getting a lot of good information via the podcast.
00:02:19.580 We've got our social media outlets, but if you want to go all in and really elevate your
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00:02:28.180 orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.
00:02:30.860 All right, guys, let me introduce you to Dr. Cloud.
00:02:33.620 Uh, he is a New York times bestselling author.
00:02:36.600 He's a psychologist.
00:02:37.920 He's a highly, highly sought after leadership expert.
00:02:41.100 He shared the stage with some incredible leaders and influencers and successful business
00:02:48.040 owners and scholars and authors.
00:02:51.520 He's absolutely phenomenal, which is why I've been trying to get him on the podcast for so
00:02:55.320 long.
00:02:55.660 But this guy coaches CEOs, fortune 500 companies, executive teams all over the world.
00:03:01.380 And among his books are, or is his newest book trust again, knowing when to give it,
00:03:06.980 when to withhold it, how to earn it and how to fix it when it gets broken.
00:03:09.720 And he really teaches the readers how to build trust and use it as a powerful tool for
00:03:13.980 influencing others.
00:03:15.620 And I know that has a negative connotation, but influencing others in a positive way and
00:03:20.560 also building the life that we and others dream of.
00:03:22.980 And I think you're going to hear exactly why he sold over 20 million copies of his books.
00:03:28.320 His messages are powerful and useful.
00:03:30.940 So apply them.
00:03:33.280 Henry, it's so great to have you on the podcast.
00:03:35.160 I've been looking forward to this one for some time now.
00:03:36.920 Well, Ryan, you know, us guys need to talk, right?
00:03:42.900 We do need to talk, but it's, it's, it seems like it's an increasing rarity.
00:03:46.700 I think, I think that we used to talk more often, probably than, than we do now.
00:03:50.820 And I heard somebody say to me that we're so much better equipped to talk with people
00:03:57.400 across the globe, but it's harder for us to talk to people across the kitchen table
00:04:03.380 than it's ever been.
00:04:04.700 It's kind of an interesting concept.
00:04:06.920 I haven't thought of it, um, in terms of, you know, the more you say it more and more
00:04:11.360 nowadays, um, but when I was a kid, um, my dad started every Sunday morning, he browsed
00:04:21.020 me out of bed at six o'clock and take me to breakfast with his best friend.
00:04:25.060 And I saw that from an early age.
00:04:28.940 And, and then he, he and his best two friends every day, literally every day for 40 years,
00:04:37.160 mid morning, their businesses were close to each other mid morning.
00:04:40.500 They'd take a 10 o'clock coffee break and just sit down and talk.
00:04:44.460 And they do it again mid afternoon.
00:04:45.900 They did that every day for like 40 years.
00:04:50.340 And it's just, you know, I, I, because I'm a golfer, I've played competitive golf my whole
00:04:57.740 life and my regular group and all that.
00:05:00.040 I, I get a lot of that with, you know, hunting and fishing, but, but a lot of guys, they've
00:05:06.820 never even seen it or hadn't gotten into the pattern or modeling or, but it's really
00:05:12.080 important.
00:05:12.720 It is vitally important.
00:05:14.220 Yeah, I, I envy that a bit.
00:05:16.980 I, in fact, after this conversation, I'm driving to a neighboring town and visiting some, some
00:05:21.040 friends.
00:05:21.440 We're going to lunch.
00:05:22.080 These are hunting buddies of mine.
00:05:23.320 So we try to get together as often as we can.
00:05:25.140 And man, it's been really refreshing.
00:05:26.760 I haven't done that for a lot of my life, but I remember growing up in a small town in Southern
00:05:30.140 Utah and there was the, uh, the Parowan cafe.
00:05:33.520 So if anybody's listening, that's from Parowan, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about,
00:05:37.040 but there's, there's always a group of men.
00:05:39.720 They get together, like you said, and they have coffee and they tie, I don't know what they're
00:05:43.500 talking about.
00:05:43.960 I never got invited, but, uh, I was a young man at the time, but man, it was pretty cool
00:05:47.740 to see those guys get together and talk and, uh, you know, maybe, maybe they were debating,
00:05:52.640 maybe they were pouring over politics or, or, or women or whatever.
00:05:56.700 I don't know, but I think that's a lost art that we should try to reestablish.
00:06:02.420 You know, I recommend it on a number of levels with the CEOs I work with.
00:06:07.860 I always try to have them in some sort of a really small group.
00:06:13.500 In fact, YPO has a great structure of this, where they put them in forums that once a month,
00:06:19.300 you know, young president's organization, they put them in groups of about eight or 10.
00:06:24.000 And once a month, those guys for years spend an entire day together and they process life.
00:06:31.080 And a lot of them will tell you, you know, it's like my church, I, I've gone through,
00:06:35.760 you know, tough marriage times with them, tough business times with them.
00:06:40.180 And I always tell people, you know, both business and personally, you need to have a,
00:06:45.840 a structured kind of small group of guys that you get together with.
00:06:50.600 It's so important.
00:06:52.480 Yeah.
00:06:52.600 I think that plays right into the topic of your, your latest book, which is on trust.
00:06:58.540 And, you know, as I was reading through the book, it was interesting because you led off with
00:07:03.500 the phrase, trust me.
00:07:05.900 And I've actually made over the past several years, a conscious effort not to say things like that.
00:07:10.800 Yeah.
00:07:11.500 Because I feel like if I have to say that, then I actually haven't done the real work
00:07:16.120 of trust and rapport and caring about people and empathy and all that goes into building
00:07:22.340 trust.
00:07:22.760 Like I should never have to explain that somebody could trust me.
00:07:25.340 They should just automatically know.
00:07:26.700 Would you, do you agree with that?
00:07:27.580 Or am I off on that?
00:07:29.080 Well, in fact, what I actually said, you know, around that in the book was, I said,
00:07:34.440 when I hear that phrase, my, I think my hair catches on fire.
00:07:37.840 I see, hear sirens or something because trust, you know, I kind of set it up with,
00:07:46.160 with the, it's just a fact that trust fuels all of life.
00:07:52.340 I mean, literally, you know, we've been sitting here talking for a couple of minutes and you
00:07:59.320 haven't even noticed, but you've been breathing and you haven't noticed because your system
00:08:05.780 is built with a very complicated algorithm.
00:08:09.880 You know, biologically, neurologically, physiologically, psychologically, always 24 seven in the background.
00:08:17.540 It's running one question.
00:08:19.180 Am I safe?
00:08:20.860 And the moment that the system determines that we're not safe in some way, it hits pause.
00:08:27.420 You know, if you had smelled a fume and your system said, well, I don't know if this air is
00:08:32.180 okay to breathe, you would hit pause.
00:08:34.780 And that happens in business.
00:08:36.620 It happens in marriage.
00:08:37.720 It happens in relationships where the system is always at a very, very nonverbal level,
00:08:45.220 primarily before anything, asking the question, am I safe with this person?
00:08:50.300 And it might be your wallet.
00:08:51.540 It might be giving somebody a promotion.
00:08:53.560 It might be saying the next sentence to your wife. 0.84
00:08:56.700 You know, it's determining, am I safe?
00:09:00.600 And we go from there and that's how things go forward or is how things break down.
00:09:06.120 I'm interested in this context, this concept of safety, because I think a lot of the times
00:09:12.100 we undermine safety.
00:09:13.880 And if I were to look at it, I would think intuitively that the reason safety is diminished
00:09:20.500 is because of our erratic behavior.
00:09:24.260 So we might, we might show up one day as, for example, to our spouse as gentle and kind
00:09:31.860 and caring.
00:09:33.260 And then the next day we might show up as disciplinary and authoritarian and rigid.
00:09:38.900 And I'm wondering if that instability is the greatest erosion to safety or if there's something
00:09:43.900 else.
00:09:46.180 Well, it's hard to say the greatest, you know, it's kind of like, if you could say one thing,
00:09:50.880 you know, it's important in life, well, I can't pick one.
00:09:53.940 Do you want air, water or food?
00:09:55.180 I mean, sure.
00:09:56.560 Yeah.
00:09:56.740 Good point.
00:09:57.420 Yeah.
00:09:57.760 Point taken.
00:09:59.040 And so what, in fact, in the book, I took all the research on trust and the psychological
00:10:04.080 stuff, the business stuff, the leadership stuff, the neurological stuff, and you take all of
00:10:09.740 that.
00:10:10.240 And it really, in fact, if you do a factor analysis, like what are, what is all of this saying?
00:10:15.440 And there's really five things that drive the trust system inside of us.
00:10:21.880 And, you know, I kind of sort of put them in an order for a reason, but the fifth one
00:10:29.020 is what you're referring to, and that's track record, which basically is about how our minds
00:10:35.960 build mental maps.
00:10:37.880 You know, we have to build a mental map to do anything.
00:10:40.040 When you walk down to the fridge this morning, you know, to get a cup of coffee and put milk
00:10:46.820 in it or whatever you do, you just went because you've done it a thousand times and your mind
00:10:52.220 has a map of how that works.
00:10:53.880 If somebody put a chair out in the aisle on the way down, it would have interrupted your
00:10:58.720 map.
00:11:00.220 And when we have interactions with people, we're kind of as good as our last interaction for
00:11:06.980 the most part.
00:11:07.640 You know, if, if you, if, if, if you go in and talk to your boss and say, oh, I got this
00:11:13.280 problem.
00:11:13.640 I did this.
00:11:14.200 And all of a sudden they go, you did what?
00:11:16.080 I can't believe.
00:11:17.520 And you get one of those, you walk out of there.
00:11:21.340 And the next time you got an issue, you go, well, I can't talk to him.
00:11:27.380 Right.
00:11:27.800 And that might be a wife has an interaction like that or your teenager. 1.00
00:11:30.820 And so this track record, our minds learn what, what we can expect.
00:11:38.460 Now you can have a screw up if there's a pattern of, you know, good interactions.
00:11:45.420 And then the person actually gets concerned about you.
00:11:47.860 You go, gosh, I wonder what's wrong with him today.
00:11:49.740 That's not him.
00:11:50.680 That's out of character.
00:11:51.740 That's not how he usually is.
00:11:52.940 But if we're building a track record where there's enough of those, then that is a big
00:11:58.620 trust breakdown or, you know, a team member at work.
00:12:01.420 If you, if the team can't depend on them to do something, there's a track record for that.
00:12:05.500 Everything starts to frazzle.
00:12:07.720 Yeah.
00:12:07.840 I'm interested in, in a big component of the book that you wrote is in rebuilding trust.
00:12:13.960 I just got an email yesterday.
00:12:15.760 I think it was where I think there was some infidelity issues on a man's part and he's
00:12:21.820 trying, him and his wife apparently are trying to work through that.
00:12:25.200 Yeah.
00:12:25.740 And it's amazing how quickly one action.
00:12:28.820 And that's, in my mind, that's pretty significant.
00:12:30.880 That's, that's not insignificant.
00:12:32.260 That's a pretty, that's a pretty severe weighted decision with, with regards to infidelity,
00:12:38.220 but if they're working on it, all the power to them.
00:12:40.960 It's always interesting to me how quickly we can erode and diminish our trust and how
00:12:45.720 long it takes to build it up.
00:12:47.580 And I'm very curious about what we can do.
00:12:51.240 And I, I hate to ask it like this, but I want to bring it up this way is what can we
00:12:56.200 expect with regards to timelines for rebuilding trust, that sort of thing?
00:13:00.600 You know, it's a really important question because in human relationships, there, you
00:13:07.120 know, trust gets dinged.
00:13:08.400 People, people screw up, there's felonies and there's misdemeanors, right?
00:13:12.000 And like you're saying, the big ones are, are definitely harder.
00:13:15.720 It's when we talk about rebuilding it though, I think it's really important to understand
00:13:22.320 what are the building blocks of trust across the board, even the first time or after it's
00:13:28.980 been broken.
00:13:29.520 And, and let, let, let me give you, I'm going to just list the five real quick, because
00:13:36.520 I think that'll, you know, help us navigate a lot of these, but the very, the very first
00:13:44.060 thing that's got to happen for us to trust somebody is number one, we have to feel like
00:13:50.660 they understand us.
00:13:52.100 In other words, that they, they get you, they, they know, they know what you need.
00:13:59.580 They know what you want.
00:14:00.560 They know what hurts you.
00:14:01.620 They know what matters to you.
00:14:03.420 They know what scares you.
00:14:05.020 And if you feel, I mean, that's basically this understanding thing.
00:14:10.660 You hear a lot about it, but this is the deepest neurological wiring we have is when we feel
00:14:16.580 like somebody empathizes, that they, they hear us, they get us, they see us.
00:14:22.220 You know, how many times you go into, you know, talk to a boss, you come out, the team's waiting
00:14:27.020 outside, you know, what do you say?
00:14:29.300 And you go, well, he, he didn't get it.
00:14:31.340 And you feel like he hadn't connected with what I was trying to tell him.
00:14:36.140 And, and, you know, from the time a baby enters the world, you're not, the mom's not saying,
00:14:42.260 just trust me, you know, what's happening is that, that their experience of, you know,
00:14:48.800 they're wet or cold or enraged or whatever, the mirror neurons begin to kick in where
00:14:55.260 she's there with, you know, tone and looking them in the eyes and very present.
00:15:01.860 So the other person knows you're with me.
00:15:04.380 And when we feel like somebody is with us and they get it, they hear us, they understand
00:15:09.260 us.
00:15:09.740 Then the system begins to open up.
00:15:12.340 You know, I was talking about this, Ryan, with a, a leadership at a leadership conference
00:15:16.760 one day, a guy walks up to me and says, I'm the lead hostage negotiator for the FBI.
00:15:22.120 And everything you just described is our entire training program.
00:15:26.500 You know, walk into a bank, guy's got a bomb strapped to him.
00:15:29.760 You don't walk in and try to convince him, get him to trust you and say, dude, this is
00:15:35.280 a bad idea.
00:15:36.620 But mainly that's what people do.
00:15:38.380 They try to talk people into, you know, buying this or believe in me, or, you know, this
00:15:44.460 is going to be good for you or whatever.
00:15:46.740 You say, we go in, we say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm Ryan.
00:15:49.640 And they sent me to talk to you.
00:15:51.380 What's your name?
00:15:52.580 And they tell him, you know, he gets the name.
00:15:54.280 He goes, so tell me, how, how did we get here today?
00:15:59.000 What's going on?
00:16:00.640 And starting with first, just, just curiosity about who this person is, what's going on?
00:16:08.780 How did they end up in this mess?
00:16:10.960 What are the forces working against them?
00:16:12.820 And they start to draw them out.
00:16:15.020 And when they have that, that empathy, in fact, Chris Voss talks about this in his book.
00:16:20.720 He said, you'll actually see people start to nod on the other side.
00:16:24.740 And that's just like a baby, you know, give them something pleasurable.
00:16:27.600 They nod, give them something they don't like to turn their head.
00:16:30.960 Good point.
00:16:31.680 But that's the system.
00:16:33.540 I mean, you'll, you'll make so many more sales.
00:16:36.820 If you listen and draw out of the person, what they need about this product, what do they need it to do?
00:16:45.540 What are the issues they deal with?
00:16:47.780 And a lot of people skip that first one.
00:16:49.340 So first we have to feel understood.
00:16:50.880 The second one is we have to feel like somebody.
00:16:52.680 Before you get to that one, Henry, can I, can I just go back to that understanding?
00:16:56.500 Because I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot with regards to that, that level of understanding.
00:17:04.080 And I think the greatest factor in that is communication.
00:17:07.140 You know, I've been around a lot of people in my life who have desires and goals and ambitions and dreams and things they like and things they don't like, but they're unwilling or unable to communicate it.
00:17:17.540 Yeah.
00:17:18.080 And that makes it very hard to build trust.
00:17:19.700 And I've had other situations where people have been so open about what they like and what they don't like and what their boundaries are and how they'll be treated.
00:17:27.140 And almost a little taken back at first, but it's so refreshing to actually run across somebody who's willing to communicate what they want, what their dreams are, how they want to accomplish it, what they want from you, what they don't want from you.
00:17:41.420 It's very nice to actually have somebody in your circle who communicates that way.
00:17:46.640 Like it gives you a path to take the next step, you know, you know who they are and what you're dealing.
00:17:53.980 It's interesting that you use the word refresh because that's what happens.
00:17:58.020 The system kind of comes to life when somebody actually hears this.
00:18:02.880 Here's a little interesting experiment at the next cocktail party or, you know, stand around at lunch at a business offsite or soccer game.
00:18:11.380 Just watch people in your conversations and watch the ones that say, you know, how you doing?
00:18:20.300 You say, oh, well, you know, gosh, we're trying to get back in.
00:18:23.000 We went on this vacation and crashed the car and it was a big mess and my kid broke his leg or whatever.
00:18:29.300 Watch the ones that say, oh, my gosh, it sounds terrible.
00:18:33.200 What did y'all do where the the response is wanting more from you versus the guy that goes, oh, yeah, man, we went on vacation.
00:18:43.280 And that all of a sudden, instantly it's flipped and you feel shut down and you feel like they're not interested.
00:18:52.560 They don't care.
00:18:53.380 They don't know.
00:18:54.000 So it's a big deal.
00:18:55.680 It is a big deal.
00:18:56.760 Yeah.
00:18:57.800 All right.
00:18:58.080 So we've got understanding.
00:18:59.400 Oh, good.
00:19:00.440 I gave an assignment to every day for our one, our boundaries.me subscribers.
00:19:07.120 I send out a one thing video and I want you to do one thing today.
00:19:13.160 And that's sort of a little action step of the day.
00:19:16.040 I sent one out the other day, said in your conversations today, I want you to listen 51 percent of the time.
00:19:24.300 And think how many times you have to go, oh, everything they're saying makes me want to talk about me.
00:19:36.400 Right.
00:19:37.180 They're not connecting with you primarily until they felt heard.
00:19:42.380 Yeah, that's a good point.
00:19:43.580 I think a lot of times we're just hearing what people say so that we could interject our own thoughts and perspective.
00:19:47.980 I look, I'm a professional talker, so I get it.
00:19:53.040 And I tend to err on the side of opening my mouth maybe too often.
00:19:55.940 But I do try to ask poignant questions because I do care about people.
00:19:59.040 And you used a great word curiosity.
00:20:00.680 I think that's the that's the key.
00:20:02.120 Being actually curious about what people are going through.
00:20:05.520 I think that curiosity is the most undervalued trait interpersonally.
00:20:13.600 Everything it is in life to people come to a confirmation bias all the time.
00:20:17.360 And they see one point.
00:20:18.240 They think they know instead of trying to draw out more about why do you think that way?
00:20:24.420 You know, and that's a lot of the answer that that people are not using in, you know, you know, even in a marriage.
00:20:33.920 It's like, you know, your wife comes in and she's she's talking about whatever it is.
00:20:40.980 And instantly we'll go, well, you know, why don't you just do this?
00:20:44.360 And they don't care a lot of times about your answer.
00:20:49.020 Well, they care.
00:20:49.680 They care.
00:20:50.800 But they but it's on the side of you piss them off and you're it's not they care.
00:20:56.280 They're not indifferent to it.
00:20:57.380 I'll say it that way.
00:20:58.140 Well, they don't they can't process the material about it until they feel like you've been curious about what it actually did to them, how it feels to them and all of that.
00:21:11.660 They they they just have to be heard first.
00:21:14.080 And that's that's that's neurological.
00:21:16.360 I mean, it's like trying to fight the laws of physics.
00:21:19.880 Yeah.
00:21:20.580 All right.
00:21:20.980 So we've got understanding and then of the five factors, what would be next in that equation?
00:21:26.900 The next one is we pretty quickly sent somebody's motive or their intent.
00:21:34.240 You know, people can listen to us, but then we feel like everything really is.
00:21:41.540 I mean, you know, even in a business situation, you'll start to feel like, do they care more about just making this sale or do they care about that?
00:21:53.180 This is going to be good for me.
00:21:55.320 This is going to work for me.
00:21:57.740 You know, good relationships have got to be mutually gratifying.
00:22:02.640 People and we all have desires and appetites and we have to have those gratified by the other party.
00:22:08.960 It's got to go both ways.
00:22:10.240 And whenever we feel like how many times you've been on a team in a work situation and the team is working on something, there's this, you know, transcendent goal.
00:22:20.480 This is what we're all trying to do.
00:22:22.040 But there's one person, they got an agenda and they're always trying to push there.
00:22:27.100 It might it might help their department or might just be there what they want to drive.
00:22:32.320 But you feel like it ends up always just about what's good for them.
00:22:38.300 And once we sit, you know, in a marriage, when the marriage gets oriented around just one person's needs and the motive is always to try to, you know, get everybody to do what they want.
00:22:49.660 We just unplug.
00:22:51.140 You know, we want to know somebody's got my back.
00:22:53.340 You know, the best friends and business associates you have are the ones that you feel like they've got my back, even when I'm not there.
00:23:04.000 You know, if somebody's going to trash me over here and I know that person's in that meeting who I really trust, I'm covered.
00:23:12.100 You know, they're they're looking out for for me.
00:23:15.160 And and when when people begin to sense that, gosh, it really it really makes them happy when this works for me, when I do well, when when this is is good for me.
00:23:28.140 Then that's the next like a lock opening up, you know, in the Panama Canal.
00:23:32.600 That's the next gate that opens.
00:23:34.720 That's they've got my best interest at heart as well as their own.
00:23:39.740 We need to feel that.
00:23:42.280 Yeah.
00:23:43.500 Yeah.
00:23:43.940 I think when you're talking about the the win win scenario, right, where it's not just about you, but it's not just about them and trying to find some common ground, some commonality.
00:23:54.740 But but I think one thing I've lacked on in my life is not that the motive is there.
00:24:00.000 I mean, the motive is there.
00:24:01.800 I mean, I have a desire to serve people, but one area that I struggle with is empathy.
00:24:05.300 You know, so if people are struggling with a certain aspect of life, it's not that I'm trying to force or coerce or manipulate them into doing something that I think would be good for them.
00:24:14.500 And it may feel like that, but my my motive is pure.
00:24:19.120 Like, I do really want, you know, somebody to thrive.
00:24:22.180 It's just my delivery may be lacking quite a bit.
00:24:26.720 But in either case, it's for them.
00:24:29.480 Right.
00:24:30.420 You know, and and that's what we really have to feel that, you know, in the book I talk about, I just had two total knee replacements in the last last couple of years.
00:24:40.540 And a lot of pain was awful.
00:24:43.600 Two and a half years, I was basically in a wheelchair.
00:24:46.260 And so I go to the, you know, I'm picking a surgeon.
00:24:49.280 Right.
00:24:49.640 And I go to the surgeon, the one that was, you know, head of everything.
00:24:54.320 This is the guy and all this.
00:24:56.540 Right.
00:24:57.320 I can name the institution.
00:24:58.600 But but I go in and, you know, he's empathic and he cares.
00:25:03.440 And I feel that.
00:25:04.500 But then about, you know, after he starts to examine me, he goes, hey, guys, come in here.
00:25:09.160 And he calls in three or four residents.
00:25:12.540 And so he puts me on the table and says, now, you see this knee?
00:25:15.480 See that muscle right there?
00:25:17.680 And he starts to move.
00:25:18.600 He said, this is what we're this is.
00:25:20.980 This is exactly what we're doing in that research project.
00:25:23.520 And I want you all to use him is because we'll be presenting it in Cleveland, you know, and all of a sudden I'm feeling like he's not there for me.
00:25:32.860 He's there for building his empire.
00:25:35.900 Right.
00:25:36.020 And you can feel when somebody really, you know, certainly I'll give you another example.
00:25:45.700 We just bought a property, a house.
00:25:48.420 And the agent that we used, we looked at so many properties that she said no to to us.
00:25:59.460 She said, you know, I know it's great.
00:26:00.920 I just don't think that with what y'all described, this is the best area or whatever.
00:26:07.440 She could have closed so many deals. 0.93
00:26:10.340 Of course.
00:26:10.940 But I learned pretty early, I can trust this woman.
00:26:16.480 She's not just trying to get a commission. 1.00
00:26:18.740 She knows what we want.
00:26:20.100 And she's on a hunt to find out the best thing for us.
00:26:23.000 Even if it's a, even if it doesn't cost us much, you know, even if it's a lower and the trust that we built with her just because of that, it was huge.
00:26:33.980 Yeah.
00:26:35.360 Well, I think even with your first scenario, there's, there's an opportunity there to, even in the same circumstances to do that a little bit more tactfully.
00:26:43.700 You know, maybe it's asking you if, if you, we can bring these residents in because this is a unique case and I care about these residents and they've probably never seen this before.
00:26:53.200 And would you feel comfortable if I explained to them what was going on so that they can improve their performance and they can improve as, as surgeons, same, same scenario, different communication, different motive than, Hey, just let me worry about the research paper I'm working on.
00:27:11.060 It's a big deal.
00:27:12.120 You know, like in a business scenario, even when, when you're choosing a vendor, you know, the difference between the ones that really understand, like, look, if this, if this platform goes down, you know what it does to us and they're really looking out for it.
00:27:32.000 And then they come back and they call and say, you know, I was thinking about what you said and, and I think we could do some things that, um, would help ensure that, that, that doesn't happen.
00:27:45.960 We could add this or that.
00:27:47.200 And, and, and you, you sense that they're over in their corner, not thinking about how to close the deal.
00:27:51.960 They're over in their corner, how to make it better for you and husbands and wives, you know, I've, I've made this mistake, you know, a friend says, Hey, Hey, you want to play golf on Saturday?
00:28:04.980 Yeah. I think I look at my couch. Shoot. Yeah. I can do that. Let's, let's tee off at 11 versus I, I might be able to do that.
00:28:14.260 Let me check with Tori because I don't know exactly how that's going to affect, you know, her schedule or things she has in mind, even something as simple as that, where she knows that I'm for her interests, even when I'm thinking about mine, that is a big deal.
00:28:31.920 When, when she feels like you got her back, how this is going to affect the family, it is a big deal.
00:28:39.820 In fact, John Gottman, who's one of the, the great marriage researchers, he calls a betrayal.
00:28:47.160 The definition of betrayal is when one party acts in any way without thinking about how that's going to affect her, the interests of the other.
00:28:57.260 That's a good way to think about it.
00:28:59.140 That is. I also think there's a time horizon on some of these things.
00:29:03.620 So if your time horizon is short term, you're probably going to do it in what's your own best interest, right?
00:29:10.460 Like it's going to be transactional, even from sexual intimacy.
00:29:14.740 If you're just worried about getting laid, for example, like you're going to do and say things that are manipulative, that are coercive, because that's all you're worried about.
00:29:22.040 You're not building any sort of rapport or trust with somebody else.
00:29:24.480 But if you are truly trying to build trust over the long term, I think that you're going to say and do things in a more empathetic, caring, kind, compassionate way than just trying to get whatever your, your, your desire or will is.
00:29:38.120 That is a, that's a big, we spent a lot of time there because, and then, then, yeah, I won't say what I was going to say, but look, I think, I think there's a lot of guys who are listening to this and I, and I, I'm one of them who, you know, I'm good with words.
00:29:57.060 I can be manipulative. I can say things that, you know, I feel like another person might need to hear to get what I want.
00:30:05.040 And I have to be very aware of that and ask myself, is I, am I really trying to serve another person or am I just self-serving right now?
00:30:12.660 It's something I'd really try to keep on my radar because I know how powerful my words and actions can be with other people.
00:30:20.820 Yeah, exactly. We, I mean, we all do it.
00:30:22.960 Tori and I still laugh about the first year we were together, her birthday came around and I said, I said, I have got the greatest plan for your birthday.
00:30:35.740 She goes, what? And I said, let's go on a golf weekend to like Palm Springs or something.
00:30:41.920 And I'll never forget this. She looked at me and she goes, whose birthday is it?
00:30:47.180 Exactly. Exactly. It's like, well, you can go get a massage while I golf. I mean, you can do that.
00:30:52.960 Yeah, that'd be great. Well, I thought it was great because she plays, right? But yeah, it's not at the top of her list.
00:31:00.920 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
00:31:03.960 Gentlemen, let me hit the pause button on the conversation. I know you're into it. I just got to share one more thing with you once again.
00:31:09.880 Finally, the week is here. So many of you have been messaging me and emailing me and asking when the Iron Council will be open again.
00:31:16.780 Again, it's open in two days. So on Thursday, June 15th, we open up the Brotherhood, the Iron Council.
00:31:22.640 If you're not familiar with what this is, head to orderman.com slash Iron Council and you're going to learn more and get on the list to be notified as soon as we open up.
00:31:31.640 And on the topic of trust, it's a great way to learn how to build trust with other men, how to give trust to other people, because you're going to be sharing some challenging aspects of your life, where you struggle, where you succeed, what's kept you back, how you've won.
00:31:47.280 Uh, there's opportunities for you to learn. There's opportunities for you to teach. So trust building inside of our exclusive Brotherhood, the Iron Council is a crucial component.
00:31:56.580 Uh, you're going to get that what thousands of men have been using at this point, thousands, maybe even tens of thousands at this point, uh, the tools for accountability, the framework to establishing and reaching goals, the brotherhood of camaraderie that men crave in this isolated world.
00:32:11.580 Again, if you are interested, you'll need to sign up quickly because we're only open for a very limited amount of time.
00:32:17.280 Uh, and this allows us to focus and pour heavily into the men who are new and just joining us so we can get them up to speed and onto a battle team of 12 other men, uh, as soon as possible.
00:32:26.140 So again, we're open up on June 15th to get on the list and be notified for our Thursday opening, head to order a man.com slash iron council.
00:32:34.960 That's order a man.com slash iron council. You can do that right after we get done with this conversation. Let's get back to it. Dr. Cloud.
00:32:41.900 So what's next? I, so we've gone through understanding motive. I, we also briefly touched on track record. So, so what's next?
00:32:50.340 All right. So the next one is, okay, so let's go back to the knee surgery. Right. So I got Dr. Empathy saying, Oh man, your pain must be terrible. When did it start? How does it progress? I feel like he was trying to hear my story and he's empathetic. And then he goes, I want to get you back on the golf course. Now I know the motive. You know, he wants my life to be better.
00:33:11.080 So I go, okay, doc, let's, let's go do it. Let's sign up. And then he says, I'm really excited about doing it too. It's going to be, he said, I'm, I'm, I can't wait to do your knee. He said, cause I'm an OBGYN. I've never done a knee before. This is going to be awesome. You know, well now we hit pause, right?
00:33:29.760 Right. Third thing is ability. We've got to feel like the person has the ability to pull off what I'm entrusting them to.
00:33:42.320 And so many times, I mean, right. I bet there's people listening to us today that have their best friend. Sometimes they trust them with their life. And there's a lot of care there. There's, they have great motives and they say, gosh, man, we have so much fun together.
00:33:59.260 We should start a business together. Then we could have fun all the time. So they find out that somebody they trust is the greatest friend in the world has the ability to be a great friend.
00:34:10.980 But then they get six months into this deal and they're going, this guy didn't have the ability to run a business because they didn't check the third box. And, and, and, and, you know, trust is contextual. We can trust people for certain things in certain contexts, but I don't want an OBGYN doing my knee.
00:34:32.740 You know, I'm interested in a little different area of the body. Right. And we got to, we got to know the competency is there. And so a lot of people think trustworthiness is just, you know, they don't lie, cheat or steal, or, you know, they care about me, but a classic example, I'll give you another example.
00:34:54.340 Um, um, I was called into a situation where, um, they wanted CEO coaching, which is kind of mainly what I do with teams and CEOs. And, and, um, the, the board said, you know, our CEO has been in place for about a year and morale is slipping and we're not getting the results we were looking for. And, and he needs a coach. And I said, well, how long has he been the CEO a year? And they said, yeah, I said, how'd y'all pick him?
00:35:22.520 They said, well, he was our COO for 10 years. And as COO, he really, really performed. Everybody loves this guy. He, he revamped, you know, supply chains and infrastructure. He was incredible. And I said, well, and, and, and then they said, we promoted him CEO. I said, well, where'd he get the E? And they said, what do you mean? I said, well, he was a COO. Where did he get the E? He's a CEO now.
00:35:50.560 And they said, well, we promoted him. I said, I know you put him in the chair, but where did he get the E abilities, the E chip? Because when I listen and look at the, at y'all's company right now, I see somebody operating, not leading.
00:36:08.060 Right. And that's a big deal. You know, we can trust somebody with all of our hearts, but we're putting them, trusting them for something different.
00:36:21.200 We got to make sure that we feel like they're going to be able to, you know, the chute's going to open.
00:36:28.520 Whoever packed his parents' chute once got out of here the first time. I don't want, you know, my wife packing the chute. 1.00
00:36:36.480 Right.
00:36:36.740 Well, that's also a good point too, because with your wife, you trust her on so many different levels and facets of life.
00:36:45.040 But in this particular, it's not trans, the trust is not transferable in this instance.
00:36:50.580 And we need to be aware of that because just because you trust somebody in one department of your life,
00:36:55.100 doesn't mean that can be applied broadly to other aspects of your life.
00:36:58.400 It doesn't. I remember, I mean, any, any parent out there has had a teenager got their driver's permit.
00:37:04.580 Yeah. I'm dealing, I've got a 15 year old. He just turned 15 about two months ago. So we're dealing with that right now.
00:37:12.240 All right. This is what drugs are made for. I mean, you're going to need them, right?
00:37:16.740 I'm getting a little bit more gray here for sure.
00:37:20.400 When you're sitting in that right seat for the first time, I'll never forget this.
00:37:24.440 You know, I, I had Olivia had practiced, you know, golf carts for a million years and took your parking lot. 0.99
00:37:31.640 But we go on the, on the real streets for the first time. She had a permit.
00:37:35.940 She goes down first and, and she does, she kind of half-assed stopped at the, you know, 0.58
00:37:42.320 roll through the stops. I said, Olivia, you didn't come to a complete stop.
00:37:48.260 She goes, dad. Yes, I did. I said, no, you did. She said, dad, I know how to drive.
00:37:53.700 I said, Olivia, pull over. She pulls over and I said, let me tell you something.
00:38:01.680 Let me tell you how, you know, when you know how to drive, you'll know that, you know, how to drive.
00:38:07.680 When I can sit over here and not fear for my life. Right now, you don't know how to drive.
00:38:14.560 Yeah, that's right.
00:38:16.000 You know, I trust her in so many ways, but to trust her to drive and later even to go out, you know,
00:38:24.600 past a one mile radius under the four or five freeway. I mean, that she didn't have those abilities yet.
00:38:30.360 And so it is very contextual.
00:38:33.380 What's, what's interesting is what you're talking about now. We're talking about it in the context of
00:38:38.260 how you can look for certain characteristics and qualities in other people so that, you know,
00:38:43.080 they're trustworthy, but also because I've read the book, like you're also talking about
00:38:49.480 that these characteristics ought to be present in you. So I just want to make sure that the guys who
00:38:54.540 are listening, you know, as we're talking about being understanding and the correct motive and having
00:38:59.820 ability. If you're, if you're a guy and you're thinking, well, how do I rebuild trust with my
00:39:03.800 wife? Or how do I build trust with clients? These are the answers. You need to be these things. You
00:39:10.960 need to understand other people. You need to have pure motives. You need to develop your ability.
00:39:15.680 So I just, I just want to make sure we reiterate that and, and, and, and hone in on that because
00:39:20.120 that's where a lot of guys are asking about as well.
00:39:23.480 Well, you know, what you're saying is that's where it starts, right?
00:39:28.540 It's really hard. It's hard to recognize something in people when we don't have it. And a lot of
00:39:35.680 times, you know, we'll do a lot of projecting and a lot of other stuff, but when, when you are a good
00:39:42.300 listener, you spot people that aren't, when you have other people's best interests in mind, you spot the
00:39:50.960 self-centeredness. And on the competency thing, I always tell, especially, um, you know, young guys
00:39:58.400 who are, are wanting to advance in their careers, they're always wanting to think about the
00:40:02.760 connections and the networks and all this kind of stuff. And I go, look, guys, you can fake it for
00:40:08.640 about a week, but you better get good at something because when you're good at something and you're
00:40:15.760 adding value, you don't have to talk people in to doing something with you. They're coming to you
00:40:23.540 because your abilities there, that's what they need. And a lot of people say, well, I want to be a
00:40:30.160 leader. Well, you know, nobody's following yet. So deliver and really deliver and get to be a real
00:40:38.580 expert. They'll come to you because you have value. And it is a big deal for people to begin to be
00:40:47.040 on the other side of the table when they begin to feel like this guy knows what he's talking about.
00:40:54.820 Or when he did this, that really worked. Or the depth of, you know, preparation that he's done for
00:41:01.020 this. You start to feel that and you just start to feel more confident. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
00:41:08.420 And I mean, even in a marriage, you know, there's abilities, there's skills that take in a marriage.
00:41:15.540 A friend of mine called me and said, Hey, my, my daughter's boyfriend called me and wants to take
00:41:21.240 me out to dinner. He said, I think I know what that means. Here we go. He's going to ask for her
00:41:26.860 hand in marriage. She said, yeah, I need some advice. What do I do at that dinner? I said, well,
00:41:33.120 I know what I'm going to do. I got two daughters. And he said, what? I said, I'm going to tell him to
00:41:36.460 show up with his last two years tax returns and his credit report. And he starts laughing and go,
00:41:42.660 yeah, right. I said, I am dead serious. I am absolutely going to do that. He said,
00:41:48.620 that's so intrusive. I said, look, I don't care about the numbers. He can white them out. I don't
00:41:53.040 care what he makes. First, I just want to know, can he find them? Do they exist? And how's he
00:42:03.460 fulfilled other commitments, you know, that he's made? If he's got a ding here or there,
00:42:07.540 there's a narrative that can explain that. But when he's made commitments to people,
00:42:14.640 how's he followed through on those? And I said, look, the job description for a husband is way
00:42:22.400 different than a boyfriend. I mean, you can be caring and have good motives and all that.
00:42:26.640 But when you start into that job, that takes some skills to manage life and to communicate and to
00:42:37.600 resolve conflict. And I want to know if the guy's got the ability to do the surgery, you know, and
00:42:45.060 it's important or it's going to fall on his face.
00:42:48.880 One term that you used in the book was trust muscle. And I, and I liked that framing of it
00:42:54.120 because a lot of the times we think that, well, you know, I just need the magical phrase. That's
00:42:59.540 what I hear in a lot of these guys' questions where they're, you know, maybe they stepped out
00:43:02.660 on their wife and they're trying to work things out and they'll reach out to me and they'll say
00:43:05.880 things like, Ryan, you know, I did this thing and I'm trying to rebuild trust. What do I do?
00:43:09.780 And inherently, I think embedded into that question is what should I say or what tactics should I
00:43:15.380 employ in order to gain her trust, which is just a strategy. It's not deep. The motive isn't the
00:43:21.080 right motive to your point earlier. It's really developing, building that trust muscle. And as
00:43:26.860 we do that, the results seem to take care of themselves, right? If you go to the gym and you
00:43:30.940 think, well, I want to bench press 300 pounds, that's a good starting point, but you have to go
00:43:36.220 in and you have to build your muscle every single day. And if you're doing that correctly, the result
00:43:41.460 is inevitably going to take care of itself. It's going to just work itself out because you're
00:43:47.280 getting stronger. Your skills are getting better in all these areas. And, you know, what I would say
00:43:54.000 to him is, you know, there's not one magic bullet. It's like Brian just said, you're going to undergird
00:44:01.740 her with a process of doing a bunch of things a thousand times. And gradually she's going to fall back
00:44:10.360 into trusting you. She's going to fall, like a trust fall at some cheesy offsite. She's going to fall
00:44:15.840 into the relationship. And I mean, what would, think about this. Let's take that guy who stepped
00:44:22.660 out on his way. And he says, you know, I got to get some help to figure out how I could do something
00:44:29.500 so stupid. So I'm going to go see a therapist and I'm going to find out what is wrong with me. 0.99
00:44:35.740 And, and then he, he comes back, say after, you know, a few weeks in, he comes back and he says,
00:44:42.240 you know what I've learned? I've learned, I'm not really good at resolving conflict. I get defensive
00:44:49.620 and, you know, I interrupt and I try to invalidate what people are feeling. I signed up for this,
00:44:57.880 this communications workshop and I'm going to go to it. He's not talking her into anything.
00:45:05.140 She's looking at him going, whoa, he's working on himself, getting better, gaining skills.
00:45:12.280 You know, when she sees that, and then as you're saying, he'll start to live those out differently
00:45:20.420 because he's, he's turning into a better communicator, a better conflict resolver, a
00:45:26.960 better, whatever it is. We feel those, you know, if you, you play golf, you play with a guy and he
00:45:32.980 sucks. And, you know, six months later, all of a sudden he shoots 72. You go, what happened to him? 0.87
00:45:40.380 Well, he got a bunch of lessons, right? So he, and the wife's going to feel that the teammates are
00:45:48.040 going to feel that at work. So you are right. Going to the gym, doing the work. There's no
00:45:52.880 shortcut. I think what ends up happening with a lot of people is they try to correct their behavior
00:45:57.940 and that's good. You know, if we mess up and screw up with our wife or in a business arrangement or a
00:46:03.020 client, you know, we try to correct our behavior, but if there's a track record to your point earlier
00:46:07.160 hear about track records of poor performance or under delivery or flat out lying about what
00:46:13.240 you're going to do and not doing it, it's, it's going to take some, some time. And even if you
00:46:19.440 change and we will, a lot of the times I think it's viewed as manipulation in the short term.
00:46:25.820 It's viewed as manipulation? Is that what you said?
00:46:28.080 I think so. I think people see it and it's such an abrupt change and they're so used to something
00:46:32.900 else that they think, oh, well, this person's just trying to manipulate me. Do you see that?
00:46:36.820 Yeah. It's like the guy that ignores his wife for a long time and then screws up and the next day,
00:46:44.340 you know, six dozen flowers show up.
00:46:46.920 Right. Exactly. Exactly.
00:46:49.380 I remember it was, this is back when they called assistance secretaries. It was their national
00:46:56.580 secretary day. And, and my business partner and I had gone to a meeting and we're driving back.
00:47:02.140 We stopped at the florist to get it, get our assistance flowers. We're standing in line
00:47:09.360 behind this guy and he turns to us. He goes, so what'd you do?
00:47:14.200 Oh yeah. Yep. Exactly.
00:47:17.300 That's, that's where all of a sudden I'm going to convince him I'm great. Well,
00:47:21.660 you know, you're going to have to, you can't talk your way out of something you behaved your way
00:47:27.840 into. So you're going to behave your way back into it.
00:47:31.240 That's a great way to say it. Behave your way back into trust. That's really powerful. I like
00:47:36.300 that a lot. Yeah. Okay. So we've covered a lot here, but there, it seems like there's one other,
00:47:41.500 we've got five. So we've got understanding motive, ability, track record, and then one other factor
00:47:46.380 with regards to building trust. Yeah. The fourth one is I'm going to use the word character,
00:47:52.120 character, but I don't, I don't want character to just mean moral character. You know, if we don't
00:47:59.240 have, if somebody lies, cheats, or steals, then trust is over with until that's solved. Okay. But
00:48:07.260 a lot of times when people say it's got good character, that's kind of what they mean. You
00:48:11.400 know, no, I trust him. He wouldn't lie to me. You know, but when we're talking about character in,
00:48:17.160 in the trust sense, what we're talking about is somebody's entire makeup, like how are they glued
00:48:23.000 together? For example, if I, if I pick my surgeon and now, you know, we set the date, he has all
00:48:29.400 these other qualities and he says, you know, I want you to, we got to, I'm about to do one of these.
00:48:34.120 We got a theater in the OR and you can look through the window and you can watch me do a knee replacement,
00:48:38.540 which I would never do before I got one. Right. I don't want to say that.
00:48:41.640 That's probably a, it's probably a smart idea.
00:48:43.420 Yeah. Yeah. I'll never go do it if I watch one, but what if he did that? And so I'm, I'm looking
00:48:49.020 in the, in the window and, and, you know, Dr. Empathy is competent working on somebody. And then
00:48:55.760 five minutes into it, all of a sudden he goes, Oh crap, he's fleeting. The guy's fleeting. Somebody 0.57
00:49:00.180 do something. And he, you know, he goes crazy. He might have all the abilities in the world,
00:49:05.280 but if you can't be cool under pressure, if he's impulsive, if he's easily rattled, if he's,
00:49:11.660 you know, easily angered, for example, or somebody doesn't have, you know, some kind of
00:49:18.140 perseverance and can stick to it. There's context in which we need, we need the makeup of the person
00:49:25.840 in addition to the abilities. I mean, how many people have you worked with? They have great
00:49:30.460 abilities, but they're an idiot when it, when it comes to, you know, keeping their cool, 1.00
00:49:37.580 they go off on people or they don't follow through on things. You know, this, this personal 1.00
00:49:44.140 makeup is really, really important. And so it's, and again, it's contextual, you know,
00:49:50.800 I had a brother-in-law who's a Navy SEAL and, and if the bad guys were coming after me, Mark's makeup,
00:49:57.840 I mean, nothing, right. I mean, I want Mark going after me.
00:50:00.900 For sure. Of course. But if my dog dies, I need a shoulder to crown. I'm not calling Mark.
00:50:10.800 How he was glued together is not for the dark night of the soul. He'd say, well, it's a dog.
00:50:15.320 We'll go shoot another one. You won't worry about it. You know, it just kind of like that, but I, 1.00
00:50:20.960 it was awesome guy. We, we actually lost Mark in, um, in Iraq. He was killed on a mission.
00:50:27.180 Oh, geez. He was, he was the greatest, but when it comes to, you know, kind of compassion in the
00:50:34.920 moment of pain, he's going to help you. He's going to put, put his arm around you, but he's not going
00:50:39.200 to be what you need in that moment. I'd call him fun. Yeah, exactly. I'd call him one of my more
00:50:45.060 compassionate friends, but if the bad guys are coming after me, I'm not calling them. Right. And so
00:50:50.080 what are you trusting this person to do? And do they have the makeup to do it? I mean,
00:50:56.580 if you're a boss and you're, you're, you're sending somebody on a turnaround project and
00:51:00.840 there's going to be a year before there's any good news, you don't want the kind of person needs a
00:51:05.940 lot of attaboys and needs to feel good about themselves all the time. You want somebody loves
00:51:10.020 to eat problems for breakfast. So looking at somebody's makeup and this is all the emotional
00:51:16.880 intelligence. I mean, Harvard proved this over multi-year research that you get to the C-suite
00:51:24.000 in businesses and they all look the same IQ, you know, bit years in the industry, business acumen,
00:51:30.820 education. They're all the same, but there's this big gap on the high performers and all that stuff,
00:51:37.700 you know, the emotional intelligence stuff, that's personal makeup. That's how they glue together as
00:51:43.240 a character. I also think, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's something to be said for the way that you
00:51:49.560 present yourself to, you know, for example, if I came to this podcast without my notes or without
00:51:55.160 reading the book or knowing anything about you or your work, like, how is that going to build trust?
00:52:00.880 How is that going to foster a powerful conversation? If I came without video quality or without audio
00:52:06.040 quality, or I look like a complete slob that, that just shows I don't care. It's a level of
00:52:11.740 disrespect for you instead of a level of respect of showing up on time, presenting myself well,
00:52:17.120 making sure things are dialed where they need to be. That's often overlooked because it seems like
00:52:22.520 guys tend to look at that as vanity. Like, oh, you just want to look good. Well, that's part of the
00:52:27.620 equation we ought to consider. And it communicates, right? It says something and it's almost,
00:52:35.200 you know, the look good or not look good. It's not about the looks. It's about the makeup of this
00:52:45.160 person. Have they even thought about the context we're in? Have they thought about what your audience
00:52:51.120 needs? Have they thought about what you're expecting? And, you know, right now, I'll just
00:52:56.020 make an observation about you early on in this interview. You said, as I was reading through the
00:53:03.420 book, it's a little phrase there. I instantly just kind of went to another level because I felt like,
00:53:12.220 because I've never met you before. I felt like, oh, this guy's showing up, like knowing what this
00:53:18.120 is going to go differently. And it fuels the whole dynamic, but it was exactly what you're saying,
00:53:24.500 that you had the makeup to think about this and, you know, spend some time doing it and it changes
00:53:30.120 everything. Yeah. One concept you talk in the book is about breaking trust barriers. And, you know,
00:53:36.680 that's common. You know, maybe you've done something or one thing that happens quite often
00:53:41.620 is that somebody may have trust issues and it has nothing to do with you. It may have to do with
00:53:47.720 past experiences that they have. What would you recommend to a guy who's trying to break down some
00:53:53.220 of those walls? That could be an intimate connection. That could be a romantic interest.
00:53:58.320 That could be a potential business partner or a client. How do you recognize the barriers that they
00:54:04.060 have erected? And then how do you begin to break those barriers down?
00:54:07.740 It's a good question. Cause a lot of times we'll move into persuasion mode, you know,
00:54:14.280 we're going to get all I'm different, you know, or that's not going to happen here or, you know,
00:54:19.280 whatever, which is, you know, obviously that's all good and important, but you know, a lot of guys
00:54:25.000 run into this because they, they're, you know, the woman they're dating or their wife, um, has had some
00:54:35.140 really bad experiences and maybe even sexual trauma or something like that. And all of a sudden
00:54:42.540 they're surprised that she has some walls and some, you know, fears and reactions. And that's that
00:54:49.960 trust muscle systemically in their whole body, mind, and soul has been, has been doing, you know,
00:54:56.300 that the turtle is, is, you know, pulling back in the shell and what's really, really important.
00:55:03.600 Number one, don't personalize it. Okay. It's not about you. They would do this with anybody.
00:55:13.420 And so when somebody has difficulty trusting us and you take that as a narcissistic injury,
00:55:21.740 I mean, how many times have you heard somebody say, when you question something on a, you know,
00:55:27.140 you saw a spreadsheet or expense report or something didn't make sense. And you're trying to figure out
00:55:31.360 and you call and say, what, what is this? And they go, well, you don't trust me. Are you questioning
00:55:36.560 my integrity? Right. Well, I wasn't, but I am now. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. And they instantly,
00:55:45.200 they instantly, their ego is bruised because you don't trust them. So look, this isn't about you.
00:55:51.860 Okay. This is about her. And for some reason, which we don't know all of what goes into that for her yet,
00:56:00.240 for some reason, her system is hitting pause. You may be doing everything great.
00:56:06.560 That's a big first step to not get defensive, to not, you know, try to prove yourself.
00:56:13.060 What you've got to do is exactly go back to square one and empathize and try to understand,
00:56:21.560 tell me about it. What does it feel like to you? Where'd that happen? How did it, you know,
00:56:26.920 what happens inside of you? What helps when I do whatever, what scares you? And now you've gone
00:56:35.000 over into her world or in business, you know, if there's an inability to trust and delegate,
00:56:41.500 find out why, get curious, what are you afraid of is going to happen? Let's, let's see what we can do
00:56:48.320 with that. And that, that builds the first, you know, it's sort of like you're going over a canyon,
00:56:53.640 you're putting a board over the, you're building a bridge over to their side where you walk over
00:57:00.260 their side and then bring them back. But what we ask them to do is jump over the canyon. Their
00:57:05.440 system is not going to do that. Yeah. Too much risk associated with that to make that giant of a leap.
00:57:11.500 You know, their, their whole, you know, their amygdala is fight, flight, or freeze. And they
00:57:16.660 have fear. They're going to push against you or they're going to withdraw or they're going to get
00:57:21.340 frozen, you know, and, and you got to calm down the amygdala system first. And the most powerful way
00:57:31.140 of doing that is empathy. The problem with that is it takes a long time, right? It's like, I mean,
00:57:39.640 look, I'm a hard charger. I'm sure you are too. We're both ambitious men. Guys listening to this
00:57:44.360 are ambitious. They've got goals and objectives and they want to accomplish them yesterday.
00:57:48.460 And when you're dealing in interpersonal communication, like things don't happen
00:57:53.700 yesterday and they don't happen today. And it can be very frustrating. It can be frustrating.
00:57:59.060 And, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of research, you know, the male brain
00:58:04.640 gets activated and, and tends to get, you know, defensive and push against at a rate of about
00:58:11.940 6 billion times faster than the female brain. And that's why a lot of times, you know, I tell guys 0.98
00:58:18.500 like, look, if she's, if she's, and let's call it, I don't mean this in a negative way, but if she's
00:58:25.940 griping about something, that's the best thing you could ever hear. That means she cares and she's
00:58:30.620 looking to you for help.
00:58:31.520 Now, what we'll do is we'll hear it as criticism. Let me tell you, when you're in trouble,
00:58:39.160 it's when they stop griping.
00:58:40.780 When they shut down. Definitely.
00:58:43.100 That's right.
00:58:44.300 Yeah. Interesting reframe on that.
00:58:47.300 Yeah, exactly. Hear a complaint. She needs you. Hear that as an invitation. Don't take it personally.
00:58:56.060 Yeah. Fix it. Listen to it. Empathize with it. As long as she's still, unless she's a, you know, 0.97
00:59:03.220 character disorder, which some guys are, are married to women that you, you, and vice versa,
00:59:12.440 that you'll never satisfy because they're critical. And that problem's got to be dealt with. You're not
00:59:16.940 going to empathize with that for 40 years and fix it because it's not going to fix it. But I'm talking
00:59:22.160 about the normal problems of, you know, can you, can you throw that in the hamper instead of,
00:59:28.720 you know, to take that as criticism instead of I'm trying to get closer to you. That's,
00:59:34.320 that's a big deal.
00:59:36.080 Yeah. I like that. One other topic as we, as we close out for today is you talk about not making
00:59:41.900 the same mistakes again, because it's easy to, I think, do things temporarily or to fix things.
00:59:46.920 And then what ends up happening is things get smoothed over, you know, and I don't know if
00:59:51.920 they get resolved necessarily, but it gets painted over and it looks on the exterior. It looks pretty
00:59:57.520 good. And then we seem to fall back into old patterns and old habits. How do we avoid doing
01:00:02.360 that as it relates to trust? Well, you've hit on a really important one because you don't,
01:00:09.700 I mean, nobody buy a house to get a termite report back and say there's a bunch of ugly stuff going
01:00:16.480 on in those walls. Oh, let's paint it. Right. Well, it's going to come back. The thing that's
01:00:26.060 really important, I think, for all of us to do, and this is, it's in marriage, it's with parenting,
01:00:31.140 it's in business, it's all of it, is look, accept the fact you're going to screw up. Okay. You're
01:00:40.680 human. You're going to, you're going to get rattled and bark at somebody, or you're going to be
01:00:46.200 impatient, or you're going to, you know, get selfish and not show up sometime, something.
01:00:53.060 We all make mistakes. Now you're going to hear about it. Either they're going to tell you,
01:00:58.860 or you're going to see some emotional consequence. So we'll, we'll find out life has given us a 360
01:01:04.760 review all the time. If we're listening, everybody has problems, makes mistakes. A problem will never
01:01:11.960 kill you. If you solve it, here's the problem. When we do it again, now we don't have a problem.
01:01:19.920 We've got a pattern. Patterns will kill you because patterns are like mutation in a DNA and DNA begins
01:01:32.500 to define identity. And now you're no longer the guy that, you know, didn't show up to my game,
01:01:41.100 daddy last week. You're the dad that doesn't show up to games. So one of the biggest things that we can
01:01:51.100 do in business. And I mean, even in trying to get in shape, you know, you wait long goes off one
01:01:58.340 morning or whenever I can't do it today. That was me this morning. Yeah, exactly. And you miss a day,
01:02:07.360 you're going to miss a day. If it goes off the next day and you don't go, you better be careful.
01:02:13.100 Yeah. Because that's a, that's how neurological wiring starts to be built down a different path. 0.97
01:02:20.960 And so watch for patterns. And if you have patterns in the wrong direction,
01:02:28.360 you're going to end up in a different place. So we have to watch what repeats itself.
01:02:33.000 Well, Dr. Cloud, this has been fascinating. I'm, I'm really excited to get this conversation out
01:02:38.600 to the guys because I get so many questions and I have questions personally too, about how to restore
01:02:43.600 trust and how to build trust. It's crucial. Like you said, it's the framework. It's the foundation
01:02:48.720 for just about anything else is building trust with other people. Can you let the guys know where
01:02:52.860 to go to learn more about your work and to pick up a copy of your latest book?
01:02:56.740 Well, you can find the books called trust. Um, subtitle is, um, when to give it, when to withhold
01:03:05.120 it, how to earn it and how to fix it when it gets broken. You can get anywhere, you know,
01:03:10.040 all the booksellers have it. Um, if they want to find out more, um, and go deeper, if they go to my
01:03:17.220 website, which is drcloud.com. If you scroll down, I've got two online platforms. One is for
01:03:25.340 leaderships called leadership university. And that's in the business context. It's a
01:03:29.500 online leadership development path. Big companies use it. Individuals use it. And the other one,
01:03:35.460 which is maybe really, really cool to do with your spouse, even it's called boundaries.me.
01:03:46.260 And I've got over a hundred courses on there actually in everything from performance to conflict
01:03:53.820 resolution to addictions, to depression, anxiety, mental health, marriage, parenting, all that. So
01:04:00.800 just you can find it all there. Excellent. Well, let's sync everything up. So the guys know where
01:04:05.880 to go. I appreciate you taking time. I know you're a busy man, but this has been a valuable
01:04:09.560 conversation. And I just want to let you know that I'm grateful we could do this. And I really
01:04:13.380 appreciate your work because it's helped me personally in my own life. So thanks for joining us
01:04:17.200 today. Well, I appreciate it, Ryan. And also the fact that you're returning the old art of guys
01:04:23.380 getting together and talking. This is what we need to do. I've got a couple of old school
01:04:30.260 barber chairs that I'm going to have restored because I want to do this. And I was thinking
01:04:35.380 about for the podcast, it'd be cool because it would be a throwback and a nod to the days when guys
01:04:40.220 would go to the barber and they would jack jaw and talk about politics and women and critical issues 0.94
01:04:45.040 and cultural events. And I thought it could tie in really nicely to what we're trying to do here.
01:04:50.460 That is a great idea. And you know, I'm, I'm an old fart. So I grew up in the days of barbershops, 0.62
01:04:55.580 right? Yeah. And it wasn't just when you're in the chair, guys would sit around in the chairs,
01:05:03.500 you know, come early waiting on theirs because you're right. It was, it's kind of like a bar.
01:05:08.620 Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully we can get those restored fairly quickly and elevate this a little bit in that
01:05:14.240 way too. There you go. Well, I'll come to you for a haircut. Perfect. I'll have to bring somebody
01:05:19.920 else in. You wouldn't want me to cut your hair, but I'll bring somebody else in. They'll cut both
01:05:23.080 of our hair. We'll have a great conversation in the meantime. We'll do it. All right. Thank you.
01:05:27.720 I really appreciate the opportunity to talk today. We'll talk again. Thanks.
01:05:33.520 All right, gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one only Dr. Henry Cloud. I loved the
01:05:38.840 conversation personally. Like I said, I've been trying to get this guy on the podcast for a very,
01:05:43.320 very long time. I've read his books, boundaries. There's another one in there. I read drawn a blank
01:05:49.000 on it right now. And then of course his latest trust. And I would highly, highly encourage you
01:05:53.900 to pick up a copy. I know a lot of you guys, and I'll throw this out here. I know a lot of you guys
01:05:59.340 based on emails and messages that I've received really have questions about how to repair and rebuild
01:06:05.280 trust once it's been broken. That might be an infidelity issue on you or your wife's part.
01:06:10.580 Uh, that might be a business dealing that went South. I mean, there's a lot of ways that we can
01:06:16.380 undermine and erode and destroy trust. So you have a lot of questions on how to rebuild it.
01:06:21.380 And this book covers that. So pick up a copy of the book, do me a favor, take a screenshot right now,
01:06:26.920 tag Dr. Cloud, tag myself, post it up on Instagram and Facebook. Let other people know what you're
01:06:32.420 listening to. That's a big part of the way. Not only do we grow this movement, but the way that we
01:06:36.220 reach other men who need to hear this message. And then the last thing, last call for, uh, us
01:06:41.980 opening up the iron council again on June 15th. So that's two days from the release of this podcast.
01:06:47.560 And you can check that out at order of man.com slash iron council. All right, guys, you've got
01:06:53.620 your marching orders. We will be back tomorrow for the ask me anything until then go out there,
01:06:57.960 take action, build trust. Tell the man you are meant to be.
01:07:02.280 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
01:07:06.840 to be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.