Order of Man - DR. JOHN DELONY ｜ Annihilate Anxiousness

00:00:00.500 Anxiousness, depression, suicide, these are all growing trends with men. And it's unfortunate

00:00:06.900 because with all we know about men's health, physical, mental, and emotional, why is it that

00:00:12.720 so many men seem to be struggling now more than ever? Isolation, loneliness, loss of ambition,

00:00:20.200 lack of clarity, all contribute to the epidemic that seems to be plaguing so many men. And it

00:00:26.040 doesn't have to be this way. My good friend and author of Building a Non-Anxious Life,

00:00:31.520 John Deloney is here to tell us how to make it so. We talk about burnout, stress, and numbing behavior,

00:00:38.740 unpacking what value you truly add to the people that you care about, how to apply these principles

00:00:43.920 in reality, and also practically why we don't have quote unquote maps for every situation we encounter

00:00:49.760 and what to do about it, and overcoming a past of extreme guilt and shame for previous behavior.

00:00:57.040 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge

00:01:01.620 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:01:07.320 easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:13.960 This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call

00:01:19.480 yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the

00:01:24.340 founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here today. Glad you were tuning in. This

00:01:30.280 is the premier podcast specifically for men. So if you're a man and you're trying to improve in your

00:01:36.280 life as a father, husband, business owner, community leader, coach, friend, son, then you are in the

00:01:43.400 right place. And I know I'm a bit biased when I say premier, but at this point with nearly 1,100

00:01:48.600 episodes and tens of thousands of men exclusively served and helped, we're talking directly to you.

00:01:55.640 There's a lot of companies out there, a lot of businesses and movements out there that serve a

00:01:58.800 lot of people. We work specifically and exclusively with men. Now there are women who listen, of course,

00:02:04.220 and we're glad that our ladies are here tuning in and hopefully they're learning some things as well

00:02:10.060 from this podcast, but I'm talking to you. Again, if you're a father, husband, business owner,

00:02:14.840 community leader, I'm talking specifically to you as a man. And we do that in a very powerful way by

00:02:18.960 having these podcasts. I've got Dr. John Deloney on the podcast today, but we've had other guys like

00:02:23.820 Tim Tebow, Matthew McConaughey, Tim Kennedy, Andy Frisilla, Sean Whalen, Grant Cardone, David Goggins,

00:02:33.220 Cameron Haynes. The lineup of guys that we have on this podcast is phenomenal and a testament to the work

00:02:38.320 that we're doing here. Before I get into the podcast today, guys, I just want to mention my good friends

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00:03:03.400 because every man carries a knife on him at any point. Now, I know that might be a little slight

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00:03:42.920 Uh, my guest today is, as I mentioned earlier, a good friend of mine, him and I have conversations

00:03:47.100 and we're trying to get on some hunts together. His name is John Deloney. He says his official title

00:03:51.560 is quote mental health expert, but also all that means is he again, quote, gets the privilege

00:03:57.620 of walking people through the tough stuff, uh, with a degree from Harvard, including two PhDs along the

00:04:03.620 way. And now an integral part of the Ramsey solution team, John is bringing this message of

00:04:10.700 empowerment to the masses in a way that men can actually consume and digest. Uh, he's also the

00:04:17.800 author of his latest book, building a non anxious life and his lessons, videos, and messages have been

00:04:24.740 a powerful source of growth in my own personal life. Gentlemen, enjoy this podcast with one of

00:04:30.640 my favorite people on the planet. I don't say that lightly. Dr. John Deloney. John, what's up,

00:04:35.900 man? So great to see you and have you back on the podcast. I wish we were doing this in person,

00:04:39.540 but you know, alas, here we are. I know it's good to see you, dude. It's good to see you have

00:04:43.740 that rugged, uh, background, man. I've got this blonde wood shelf stuff going on. You're like,

00:04:49.260 you're in a cabin in the middle of a woman. A woman definitely did that for you.

00:04:52.540 I think multiple. That's all right. Okay. Well, that makes sense. That was not me. I mean, look,

00:04:58.480 that's not an insult because it looks pretty good, but when you have a dude do it. And when I say a

00:05:02.400 dude, I'm talking about me, like I don't have a team. It's like, this is what you get, but it

00:05:05.980 looks rad. It looks right. Awesome. What's been going on, man. You got a, uh, you got a new book

00:05:10.780 coming out, which I'm excited about. And obviously things are just seem to be cranking for you.

00:05:15.480 Yeah. It's, it's that, uh, cranking and then falling apart at the same time, right? When you get the

00:05:19.760 engine going, then the wheels fall off and you get the wheels back on and then the transmission

00:05:22.800 goes sideways. And so it's just, uh, life running as fast as it can go. Right.

00:05:28.240 Is that, uh, as, as a therapist, is that pretty much the way that it seems to go for most people?

00:05:33.160 It's like, you're on top of the world one minute. And then the next minute you get kicked right in

00:05:36.300 the balls and you're like, wait, what happened? Well, I was recovering from getting kicked in the

00:05:40.700 dick. Like, uh, like I, I wake up and like my whole world is crumbling around me. So is that

00:05:47.420 pretty common? Well, I, I, I mean, what you just described, that's the human experience. I think

00:05:52.860 the lie we've told ourselves the last hundred or so years is that there's some sort of

00:05:57.360 mountaintop that you can get to where none of that happens anymore. And that's just, I think all of us

00:06:02.740 are looking around over the last four or five years, especially in saying, Hey, I don't think that's

00:06:07.460 true. And we don't have a psychology for what you just said, which is that's, that's most of our

00:06:12.300 life. And, uh, man, we're, we're, we're, we're unwinding, but yeah, I think that's, I think that's

00:06:17.300 life, man. I think that's life. There's no such thing as there. It doesn't exist. I think part of

00:06:21.800 the problem is this, this is probably permeated by even look, we're, we're instigators in this,

00:06:27.680 you and I, and in social media where it's, you know, you post all the highlights and you post how

00:06:33.660 good everything is and how wonderful and all the money you're making, all the girls you're,

00:06:36.880 you're seeing and all the amazing adventures you're going on. And people are like, wait,

00:06:40.760 that's not my life. Like, what am I doing wrong? Yeah. Uh, John Dudley, uh, the, the great bow

00:06:48.780 hunter, um, he did something yesterday that I've never seen somebody do. And it was incredible.

00:06:54.980 He laid in a field for 12 hours. He, he's, he glassed a muley and he laid in a field for 12 hours

00:07:01.940 and he kept coming back to say, I'm still sitting here covered in mosquito bites and I'm hot.

00:07:08.700 And then he went to the next one and then he went to the next one. And there was four or five

00:07:12.160 different things that he rolled out. And it was just him sitting there getting eaten by bugs.

00:07:16.600 And I thought that's my hunting experience right there. Not just, it looks like Cam Haynes lands

00:07:21.980 out of a plane and spots this huge six by six and he wins. It's like, nope, I laid in a field for 12

00:07:28.140 hours and got lucky in the dark. Right. Um, I, I, I appreciate that because you're exactly right.

00:07:33.580 We're trying to live up to this curated nonsense that I participate in like everybody else does.

00:07:38.280 Um, and, uh, it's, you know, it's really boring parenthood. It's so freaking boring.

00:07:44.240 Just kicking a soccer ball with a seven-year-old that can't kick it back to you. It's the worst.

00:07:48.740 And that's, that's fatherhood. Or when your kid's like, Hey, let's go wash the car. You got to come

00:07:52.740 with me. I know it's going to take an hour longer. It's the worst. I could wash this car and

00:07:58.080 be out of here and back at my house, but my son needs to learn how this works, how to put the

00:08:02.740 quarters in, how to get the, do this right. That's parenthood, man. And yeah, we don't tell

00:08:07.760 that story at all. Yeah. That's, that's, uh, that is the truth. I'm glad you're talking about

00:08:12.820 Dudley and Cam Haynes and let's not discredit Cam Haynes. Cause the amount of work that guy

00:08:17.180 is amazing. No, it's incredible. It's incredible. We just don't see it as much as we might see getting

00:08:22.180 torn alive by, you know, mosquitoes sitting in the field for 12 hours. You said that's your experience.

00:08:27.140 That's not my experience about 45 minutes into it. I'm like, I'm hungry. And I leave

00:08:31.480 and go grab something to eat. I quit. This is awful. Yeah. Yeah. Even my, even last year,

00:08:36.020 my son looked at me and he's like, dad, you just need to go for a walk. And when you're,

00:08:39.980 when you're 12 year old boy in the woods is telling you to chill out, then yeah, I it's,

00:08:44.400 that's a hundred percent made it. We're going to get you on a hunt. One of these days, man. I,

00:08:48.420 I know, uh, I invited you. I can't remember when it was, was on, but you couldn't make it,

00:08:52.740 but, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna get you out one of these days. I'm excited to do that. It's

00:08:56.400 gonna be fun. It'll be fun. I'm really curious about with, with your new book and I've gone

00:09:00.880 through it. I've got a, I've got the advanced reader's version here. Um, I like where you

00:09:07.360 started because anxiety there, there's a lot of words that I think get tossed around in a,

00:09:12.740 in a relatively soft society in which we live, like anxiety. It's like, okay, well, hold on a second.

00:09:18.400 Like, are you, are you anxious? Is there something really wrong here? Or is it just,

00:09:22.080 you know, you got a little worry about what happened yesterday or what might happen tomorrow.

00:09:26.000 Uh, and I think we tend to, especially in, in the circles that we run in dramatize everything,

00:09:32.280 like everything's dramatic, everything's hyperbole, everything's the world's going to end

00:09:36.400 and democracy is going to die. And how do you define anxiety? And my secondary question to that is

00:09:44.540 what's healthy because we wouldn't have that feeling if it wasn't supposed to serve us in

00:09:49.300 some way. At least that's my perception of it. Uh, and what's unhealthy and where is that line?

00:09:54.580 Yeah, that's a great question. So when I was a snobby, um, academician, I guess,

00:09:59.440 uh, I was really hell bent on trying to be a gatekeeper, if you will. Like anxiety is a clinical

00:10:06.040 term that can only be used in a clinical setting. And any use outside of that is it's a bastardization

00:10:12.900 of the word and you don't know what you're doing, et cetera. And I think that's, that's just,

00:10:17.860 it's like the time I, uh, about seven years ago, I decided screw smartphones. I'm getting a flip phone

00:10:22.580 and I'm not doing this anymore, but everybody texts. And so I was driving down the road and

00:10:28.520 it stopped signs. I'm like pushing the buttons a whole bunch of times. And it's like, boom,

00:10:32.080 boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, um, R. And I was like this, like, if everybody's speaking

00:10:37.400 Spanish, you can't speak English. And so, um, it just became a bit of snobbery. And so

00:10:42.340 anxiety has jumped the shark. It's become a colloquial. It's part of our culture, right?

00:10:46.700 It's just a word that just says I'm uncomfortable, but it's burnout. It's that chronic stress. It is

00:10:52.300 that world. Um, it's just your body trying to get your attention is what, what's what anxiety is.

00:10:56.800 So your body says, Hey, we're not safe here or Hey, something is not okay in this environment.

00:11:02.500 That's all it is. It's an alarm system. Um, I think when, you know, you've got a problem

00:11:06.660 is when it's pervasive and it begins to interrupt your day and you start finding numbing behaviors to,

00:11:13.140 um, escape the, the alarm system sounds, um, or the, you start, you wake up and your heart rate's

00:11:21.000 already beating. You wake up at 3 AM and you can't go back to sleep. And that's when you go,

00:11:25.180 you head down the, the ambient route, or you grab another drink and another drink,

00:11:30.440 or you start texting that woman back or whatever the thing is that begins to distract you from

00:11:34.760 yourself. Or you play video games from 3 AM until 7 45. And you're late getting out the door.

00:11:39.940 Um, it's when you start creating a world around this alarm system, that's when you got a problem.

00:11:45.280 Yeah. I mean, that's what it was for me. I don't like talking about this, but I do. And I can tell

00:11:49.100 you the minute I started talking about it, I started helping hundreds of not thousands of more men

00:11:52.900 is I was so anxious that I'm like, I gotta, I gotta have a beer. Yeah. I gotta have a shot. Like I gotta,

00:11:59.620 I gotta down that pint of whiskey. And that's what I was doing. Like by the time I stopped drinking,

00:12:02.940 I was downing, have a pint, a pint, a day of whiskey, you know? And, and it's like the cheapest

00:12:08.040 whiskey I could find with the highest alcohol content. Cause all I was worried about is like

00:12:12.060 getting rid of this, like anxious, that buzz overwhelmed feeling, you know, it's so stressful.

00:12:18.620 Well, and the thing about alcohol is it works. It does. It shuts it up. It pulls the batteries

00:12:22.920 out of that alarm system and shuts it off for a minute. Right. Until it ruins everything else.

00:12:26.640 Right. Until your house burns down around you. Right. Yeah. Or your family leaves you or,

00:12:30.000 you know, whatever. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. And so that, like that following

00:12:34.100 that analogy all the way through is if anxiety is just an alarm, if there's a smoke alarm in your,

00:12:38.920 in your living room and you go up there every morning and you pull the batteries out, that's

00:12:42.360 cool, man. That shuts the alarm off, but your house will burn down. Right. And your family will

00:12:46.460 take off on you. Your boss will say, Hey, we don't want your work anymore. Or your work will begin

00:12:50.520 to slide and suffer. There's con you're going to pay the piper at some point. Um, and that's the whole

00:12:56.500 point of, of what I've been trying to figure out in my own personal life is when do I know to turn

00:13:01.480 and stare down these sirens, head straight towards the alarm instead of numbing from.

00:13:06.740 So the concern I have with that and not necessarily with what you're talking about,

00:13:10.100 just the traditional advice that we get. And I've, I've heard this a lot is like, Oh, well,

00:13:14.500 you know, if you were happy with your life, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have to drink. I'm like,

00:13:17.340 that's bullshit. No, that's stupid. I was, I was actually happy with my life. Like I,

00:13:21.140 I had a, an 18 year marriage. I had kids that I, that I, that I love, still love. Uh, I have a

00:13:27.400 business that's thriving, that's serving thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people. Like I'm

00:13:32.700 pretty happy with what's going on. It isn't just a matter of like, Oh, just be happier. Or what was

00:13:37.840 the other one I would hear all the time is like, Oh, well, you know, if you were satisfied, like this

00:13:42.000 kind of nonsense, I'm like, I don't know if that shuts it off. It doesn't seem, it didn't seem to work

00:13:46.300 for me. Here's, here's the, um, I think happiness is an, is a stupid destination. It's a stupid

00:13:55.900 place to aim. And I think that, uh, what was the other one you said? It made me even cringe,

00:14:01.200 uh, sat, satisfied, satisfied or something. It turns fulfillment into, it's like telling somebody,

00:14:08.920 man, if you would just stop being hungry, uh, like that's a, that's a stupid thing to say.

00:14:14.760 It doesn't make any sense. So, um, here's the nth degree. Here was my, one of my big dirty secrets

00:14:21.840 is I am on the radio all the time. I'm teaching kids and I mean, I'm teaching families how to

00:14:28.880 connect with their children and better ways to parent and emotional and psychological health

00:14:33.540 and all those things. And I had a five-year-old, four-year-old, five-year-old, six-year-old,

00:14:39.140 seven-year-old daughter over the course of a span of several years, Ryan, she wouldn't hug me.

00:14:44.760 She wouldn't be close to me. And I'm not a violent guy. I'm not loud. I don't ever yell. I don't hit

00:14:50.500 anybody. Like she wouldn't be near me. And it was one of these like things that haunted me. Why won't

00:14:57.540 my own freaking daughter give me a hug in the morning? And at first it was kind of funny. And

00:15:03.420 then it was like, she's just weaponizing it. Cause she knows she loves you, blah, blah.

00:15:06.700 And it was eventually my wife that said, John, you're the one always prattling on about

00:15:11.420 neuroception. Like your body's always skin in the environment for what's safe and what's not.

00:15:15.780 What is it inside your chest that that little girl's body is telling her that guy's not safe.

00:15:21.520 And that's the first time I went and sat with a trauma counselor and said, look,

00:15:26.100 I've made more money in the last X number of months than anyone in my family has ever done.

00:15:31.000 I've got a great marriage. I've got two healthy kids. I have my home on the acres outside of Nashville.

00:15:36.800 Like I've won the game. And she golf clapped my therapist, Larry golf clapped dude. And she's

00:15:45.260 like, congratulations. And that started a process where I had to work through and say some things

00:15:51.020 out loud that I had never told anybody. I've been married for 21 years. I never said anything out

00:15:54.220 loud. And we sat down and went through it and I went through some hard stuff. And now I got to tell

00:16:00.140 you last night, I said a sentence out loud last night that I couldn't believe I said, which I told

00:16:04.040 my daughter, get off of me. You have to go to bed. I can't keep her off of me now. And so that wasn't

00:16:10.000 me searching for happy. That was finally teaching my body that we weren't safe then. And now we're okay.

00:16:16.940 And that's what alcohol helps cover up, man. It's that rattle, right? That has nothing to do with

00:16:21.240 happiness. That has nothing. Happiness is, is cocaine and, and gummy candies, man. It's, it's a,

00:16:28.060 it's a temporary firework show that you chase. Um, satisfied, man, that's an Instagram word if I've

00:16:34.160 ever heard it. Um, and in telling people to be satisfied as though it's a directive or a character

00:16:38.800 issue is even more insane. It's about teaching that nervous system. We're okay here. And if it's

00:16:44.240 not okay, then it will continue to get your attention and get your attention and get your

00:16:46.980 attention louder and louder and louder until you burn everybody in your sphere down.

00:16:51.520 I've got so many questions. So I was going to ask another one, but since you said,

00:16:54.820 we're okay here, I'm going to riff on that for a minute. When you say we're okay here,

00:16:58.520 like I don't ever feel easy personally. I'm just, look, I'm just going to explore this through my

00:17:03.960 lens and hopefully enough other guys like are kind of in a similar boat, but I don't, I don't feel

00:17:10.120 okay here because I feel like, like I'm ambitious, I'm hard charging, I'm driven. And so like, I'm not

00:17:15.500 okay here. I'm not okay with this podcast studio. I'm not okay with, um, you know, my, my level of

00:17:20.540 interviewing, I'm not okay with, uh, my financial prosperity. Now by any objective measure, you

00:17:26.300 could look at it and say, this guy's pretty well off and he's got kids that love him. He's doing

00:17:30.340 well financially. He's good. He's somewhat intelligent somewhat. That's, that's hyperbole,

00:17:35.860 but jury's out. That's right. Uh, but still, I don't feel satisfied. Like I don't feel like I'm

00:17:44.480 okay here. Like I do want more. And so at what point do we have to let go of the future a little

00:17:50.540 bit? You talk about that in the book, um, and just be present in the moment. I'm kind of wrestling

00:17:55.320 with that personally. I think it's when it's, it's the same. It's the, it's that, it's that gap just

00:18:00.740 on the other side of the moon. It's that gap between guilt and shame, right? I did something

00:18:04.900 stupid and I am stupid. I made a bad decision. I cheated on my wife. I'm a piece of crap cheater,

00:18:12.280 right? Which I didn't do by the way. I just want to make sure I, I, I, I, there's a difference

00:18:17.740 between, um, dude, I have a vision for this thing and I'm going to keep chipping away and chipping

00:18:22.960 away and chipping away. And I'm the same way, man. Even my, I, we had a half day retreat yesterday

00:18:28.340 with me and my manager and he was like, Hey, can we just pause for a second and look about the last

00:18:32.600 18 months? We're good, man. We're good. Um, what I did not have a psychology for, and I can tell you a

00:18:38.000 story about me and my wife that was, that will haunt me till the day I die in a, in a, in a,

00:18:41.520 both a good and negative way. I don't have a psych, I didn't have a psychology for enough.

00:18:46.420 And what I realized is if you're chasing down a better studio and bigger numbers and better

00:18:51.060 financial security so that your nervous system will shut down, will slow down. You'll never catch

00:18:56.740 it. It will constantly get your attention. If you do it because you're chasing excellence in your craft

00:19:01.880 will do that's a totally different game, man. That is, that's, that's flow. That's, that's,

00:19:07.100 I mean, there's the reams of psychological data on that. That's where you find peace.

00:19:11.060 I want to become a better guitar player in my forties, just because I love playing guitar.

00:19:15.380 And there was like four or five solos. I couldn't play as a kid because I wasn't that good.

00:19:20.000 Not if I don't do this, I'm a loser and I'm finally going to get some peace. That's not,

00:19:24.780 you can't chase peace down that way. That's that to me is the difference. And I really, um,

00:19:31.160 look, man, like look around. If we all just cash out and stop being ambitious,

00:19:36.500 like my kids need some people with some serious ambition to come up and start solving some of

00:19:41.880 these challenges. Definitely. So it's not about not being ambitious. It's about knowing when you

00:19:46.860 get there, that won't, your dad's not going to call you until he's proud of you. It's not going to come

00:19:50.040 and that your mom's chaos was not about you. It never was. And there's not a dollar amount you can,

00:19:56.380 you can earn that she, it's going to make that nine-year-old version of yourself. Okay. And it gets

00:20:01.200 into the woo-woo stuff and it's not cool to talk about. We want to flex and move through it.

00:20:04.680 So I'm just simply telling you the nervous system data, man, your nervous system will get your

00:20:08.380 attention and get your attention. One thing I really admire about Cam Haynes, um, and it was

00:20:14.580 almost a throwaway line in his most recent book. And I remember sitting back reading that and I said,

00:20:19.140 there it is. And he said, this life I have chosen ends prematurely. And it's a, he made a deal with the

00:20:27.480 devil. It like, I will run, I will do these things. I will live this life. And I know it doesn't end.

00:20:32.500 And if you watch that, that video, they came out with that bear. I was not, that did not look like

00:20:37.180 Hollywood to me. That looked like a man who had struck a deal with nature. I will go in there with

00:20:42.260 a string and a stick. And if that bear kills me, that bear wins. And, um, when, uh, they, I don't

00:20:48.680 know if you watched his, his latest video they had out him and, uh, it's the origin. Um, forgot that

00:20:55.120 guy's name. Yeah. Uh, you're talking about Kip Fawkes. Um, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. And Kip

00:21:00.920 shot the bear instead of when it was hurt down in the woods, but there was a, there was a, there was

00:21:05.480 a, a bargain he had made with nature and that was legit. And I have to step back and say, that's not

00:21:11.180 the bargain I struck with nature. I want to live to see my grandkids get married. And so what kind

00:21:16.800 of life can I reverse engineer that way? And that's okay. That's all right. But, um, I think we have

00:21:22.180 to recognize, man, we got to pay the piper. If you try to outrun your nervous system, give yourself

00:21:26.820 peace. Uh, it's called once we were wolves is the name. It's an outstanding outstanding. Yeah. I love

00:21:33.300 it. I know both of those guys. I know Kip really well. I know cam not, not quite as well, but, um,

00:21:38.480 yeah, these guys are phenomenal. And Kip's sitting there saying, I love my friend. I'm not going to

00:21:43.920 watch my friend get eaten by a bear in front of me, but you watch a man who has said, I made a deal

00:21:48.700 with nature. And that's not how that deal is supposed to end. And it was like a, it's like

00:21:53.840 a buddy pulling somebody out of a bar. Like that guy said something about my wife. He's got to die.

00:21:58.300 And, um, your buddy's like, no, we're not letting you fight today. And so, I mean, but, but again,

00:22:02.880 it's, it's a, it's a deal. And that's not the deal that I think most people want to make.

00:22:08.100 Do you have to make that kind of deal to be somewhat successful though? Cause look, I mean,

00:22:11.620 I've interviewed, I was looking yesterday. Uh, I think it's almost 500 successful people.

00:22:17.840 I'm talking Kip folks, Cam Haynes, John Dudley, you Dave Ramsey, like anybody in our circle I've

00:22:24.920 interviewed. And a lot of these guys have a chip on their shoulder. I'm telling you, they're,

00:22:31.440 they're coming with some, they're, they're turning some negative energy into some really positive

00:22:37.640 results, but also there I've, I've noticed there's a cost to it. There really is a cost.

00:22:43.620 There is, there is. And I think, uh, I, I think the illusion we were talking about earlier. I think

00:22:49.280 the, the ecosystem we've set up with social media is you don't get the other side of that.

00:22:55.900 Right. So I hear you don't get the counterweight. You don't get the cost. You just see the cool,

00:23:00.980 shiny car. You don't see the monthly payment that comes in every month on those, on our lives.

00:23:05.260 Right. And you're the same way. Uh, I, I don't, I think you're right. I don't know that you can

00:23:09.760 gently head into, um, transforming something significant. I just don't think you can.

00:23:16.180 Um, I've also continued to watch folks who make it completely burn. Like they thought that I was

00:23:22.980 going to cross some kind of finish line and, um, it doesn't exist that that line doesn't exist.

00:23:27.920 And where you see people make the great turn is someone like Dudley who becomes his mission

00:23:32.760 becomes, I will be a great teacher. And that's a, that's a totally different train. That's a

00:23:38.140 totally different transition. Right. Um, or the great jujitsu guys, the players who turn into great,

00:23:43.680 uh, teachers instead, but you're right. I think you have to have a chip on your shoulder.

00:23:47.680 Here's what happened to my house. Here's me just being honest as I can.

00:23:50.160 Um, I told us in one other place, um, and I'll tell it here. So we had like, uh, you and I've

00:23:58.060 talked privately, like I wrote a book last year, went to work for Dave Ramsey a couple of years ago,

00:24:02.140 and everything in my life has just kind of blown up in a wild way. And, um, there was two speaking

00:24:07.920 gigs that I really wanted that were going to be high dollar speaking gigs. And, um, the best thing I

00:24:13.360 do bar none in this little media world that we live in is on stage and public and in public forum.

00:24:20.520 And, um, so I'm downstairs. I just finished, I was finishing draft one of the book you've got on

00:24:26.620 your desk. And my manager calls over the Christmas break and I'm working out in our little family,

00:24:31.600 in my family gym down the basement. And he says, Hey, you know, those two gigs, man,

00:24:35.740 I got some tough news. And I was like, what is it? And he goes, I only got the one. And I start

00:24:40.420 cheering. I'm like, we got it. And then he goes, Oh yeah. And I got the other one too. And so we're

00:24:44.420 cheering. I'm cheering. I think I got the other one. I'm in my basement screaming, dude. I'm like,

00:24:48.400 yeah, this is a significant shift for me. A poor kid who grew up a cop's kid. And then

00:24:54.220 a minister's kid in Houston. It's a big deal. My wife comes down and she goes, what are you

00:24:59.520 yelling about? And I was like, I got this thing. I got this thing. And she said, normally

00:25:04.760 her move is she retreats. Whenever we get cross, her impulse is to pull away a little bit. She's

00:25:10.800 very thoughtful and likes to make sure she doesn't speak out of emotion. And this time she didn't do

00:25:16.960 that. She stepped into me. She said this. She said, she put her hands like in a circle. She put

00:25:25.020 her fingers and her thumbs together. And she said, the pie chart that is our life, the pie chart that

00:25:29.980 is how much I love you. That piece of pie that is how much money you make is full. And she said,

00:25:37.140 then she went on to say this scariest phrase I think I've ever heard her say, which is John,

00:25:44.000 we have enough. So take those gigs. If you'd like to take them, but do not dilute yourself. Do not,

00:25:51.700 what was the word she used? Don't lie to yourself and say, this is for me and the kids and for your

00:25:56.640 family. This is for your ego. And then she said it again, we have enough and I'm tired of watching

00:26:04.160 my husband die right in front of me. And what I realized in that moment was I did not have a

00:26:09.240 psychology for enough. I didn't have a psychology for rest. I didn't have a psychology for dude.

00:26:14.440 There has to be breaks in between rounds. That's why MMA fighters have breaks. That's why they only

00:26:18.680 fight every three months. You can't do that every week. And, um, hard charging lunatics like us,

00:26:23.820 man. We just go and go and go and go and go. And eventually your body goes, all right, dude,

00:26:26.900 we're out. We're out. And so I've had it. That's been my path is what does enough look like? Cause

00:26:31.960 I'm going to burn this whole thing to the ground. Um, what does rest look like? What does restoration

00:26:38.440 look like? What does being present in my house look like so that I can go rappel off the edge and do

00:26:44.480 some super ambitious, super go get them kind of things. It's both. And so if you're not, let's just take

00:26:52.400 that example. If you're like, okay, this makes sense. And you know, maybe I won't pursue the

00:26:55.800 professional route as heavily because it's coming at the expense or cost of my family.

00:27:00.820 Like a man like you and a man like me and men who are listening, we're not, even if we embrace that

00:27:06.440 idea, like we're not going to sit on our hands and like do nothing. And I don't know, like retired

00:27:12.000 out on a golf course and maybe like sit my ties on the beach. Like that sounds like horrible.

00:27:17.300 So what do we do? But you're saying you're giving the count. I mean, that's, I'm glad

00:27:21.320 you asked that. Cause that's always the, that's always the counter argument. So we just do nothing.

00:27:25.340 I don't think so at all. Like when the bell dings between rounds, Mike Tyson's not like,

00:27:30.860 what am I supposed to go over and just sit down and do nothing? And his trainer will say, yes,

00:27:34.840 give your body a second so that you can go back out there and knock that dude's head off.

00:27:39.780 And so what I didn't have was any sort of how fast and how far are we going to go? I got in the car

00:27:46.680 and just hit the gas as hard as we could. And I kept getting green light after green light after

00:27:50.100 green light. And suddenly I'm driving 200 miles an hour and I can't control that car.

00:27:55.120 And I think what my wife was saying, cause I ended up taking the speaking gigs and we ended up with,

00:28:00.480 with a great year and we've been able to sit down and say, okay, what's the, what's the aim here?

00:28:05.020 Let's decide where we're going. In some seasons we have to drive 200 miles an hour. That's cool.

00:28:09.060 The whole family will prep for those moments, but most of the time, can we drive 115,

00:28:13.920 which is still 35 miles an hour over the speed limit. And it's like, yeah, absolutely.

00:28:18.700 When we have to go 200 cool. Can we have a couple of weeks a year when we drive 10,

00:28:23.520 but we just take the wheels. Absolutely. So I think it is less about stopping. I think it's less,

00:28:28.900 it's more about knowing you cannot fight every day with 14 rounds with no breaks in between them

00:28:35.220 because eventually you burn yourself out. And I think you see great people over time.

00:28:40.160 They make the caustic error because they didn't slow down. They end up buying the business that

00:28:45.620 ends up sending them bankrupt. They build that one extra building. They have that one affair.

00:28:50.480 They push themselves one step past. And if they had just slowed down a little bit, listened to a group

00:28:56.500 of men in their lives, if they had just had some sort of, why are we going 200 miles an hour?

00:29:01.880 Where are we headed with this thing? Then I think the whole machine has a longer trajectory.

00:29:07.020 I think, I think as simple, like a good way to look at it is if you look at, you know,

00:29:12.940 I think it's Japan that has the thousand year and I don't know if they still have this, but

00:29:16.540 the thousand year business plan, like we want to make sure this thing is going.

00:29:21.320 And then in the United States, we have the quarterly eval. We will fire thousands of people

00:29:27.560 from our company to hit that one number every four months. We will bend things like cheat things,

00:29:35.200 correct things, postpone things, spin off side companies to hide debt so that we hit that number

00:29:40.620 every couple of months. That's an insane way to live. That is a, that's a 200 miles an hour for no

00:29:46.140 reason other than to get that check Mark instead of saying, okay, what do we want to be doing in a

00:29:49.620 thousand years? And that's just the move. Well, look, so to play devil's advocate a little

00:29:53.620 bit on that, cause I hear people say that like, oh, Japan has this and Sweden has this and Switzerland

00:29:57.440 has that. I'm like, well, great for Switzerland and great for Japan, but take a look at our GDP

00:30:01.860 and take a look at the prosperity and take a look at the abundance and take a look at all these

00:30:06.200 metrics. You want to measure on all the metrics. You tell me which plan is best. Now take that to a

00:30:11.100 personal level. My question is, is it better to go 150 miles an hour, uh, 10, 11 months out of the

00:30:17.680 year and then scale back down to 20 or 30, or is it best to just to go always 80 miles an hour and

00:30:22.240 go to speed limit? I think it depends on the race you're running. If you're running a 200 meter dash,

00:30:26.260 you better go all out. If you're running a marathon, you better slow down. My son was,

00:30:32.380 is a middle schooler and he's on the cross country team. And the last meet, I just started laughing,

00:30:36.840 man. I gun went off and that one kid just starts all an ass, man. It's always that kid.

00:30:44.080 Every, every race. And then about 600 meters in he's walking. Right. And I think on a long enough

00:30:51.040 timeline, I hope that's not our time horizon, but we're burning through a lot of energy quick to get

00:30:56.120 to the next curve, to get the next curve, to get to the next curve. And I think it's a Simon Sinek

00:31:00.340 says, if you realize, Oh, that curve never stops coming. When do you settle in? I think what you've

00:31:05.400 drawn is a, is a, is a, an either, or that doesn't have to exist. I think 80 is awesome. And then

00:31:11.940 you've got to do 250 and you got to hit it hard and you're going to have to hit it harder in for

00:31:17.140 a longer period of time than you think. And for guys like me, uh, my buddy here in town, Ian told

00:31:23.300 me one day, he said, if busyness is your drug rest will feel like stress. And so for me, like that 10

00:31:30.440 miles an hour, that, that, that 60 seconds between rounds, dude, I hate every second of it. Yeah.

00:31:36.180 And I have to know that's the only way I get to the next round. So I think it's both and

00:31:40.700 is busy. If busyness is your drug rest will what rest will rest will feel like stress, feel like

00:31:49.780 stress. That's how it feels to me. Yeah. If, if busyness is what you snort off the counter to keep

00:31:56.360 you from feeling, I don't, I'm not enough. I'm not the dad I need to be. I can't believe this has

00:32:02.020 happened in my life. My podcast duty isn't what it needs to be. Whatever the thing is,

00:32:06.560 if busyness is how it's spinning the wheels all the time is how you numb that out. Then when you

00:32:12.020 do pause, you will feel like such a failure, such a loser. Those voices will be so freaking loud

00:32:18.260 telling you how lame you are. I'm intrigued by this phrase that everybody's heard, which is to,

00:32:23.740 you know, work hard, play hard. And I'm actually, I'm intrigued by it because to me,

00:32:30.200 I wonder if you could play as hard as you work. I wonder if you could, you know, like we think

00:32:37.000 about it with our family. It's like, I wonder if you could father as hard as you work. And that

00:32:41.440 might take a guy like me or somebody who's a hard charger, high achiever and take this leisure or this

00:32:47.600 rest time or this family time and apply the same principles of work ethic and dedication and focus

00:32:55.300 and relentlessness towards resting, recovering, being engaged with your family, building Lego with

00:33:02.520 your kids, going to the park, which is miserable to me, by the way. It's the worst, man. It's the

00:33:07.560 worst. Or the beach. I don't want to sit on the beach. I always bring a shovel to the beach because

00:33:12.300 I got to dig a hole or something. I'll bring a fishing pole. I got to do something. There you go.

00:33:15.300 Same concept. What do you think about that? I don't believe in the bifurcation. I am running

00:33:22.620 a great scam right now. I play every day at work. And when I was showing up in the middle of the night

00:33:29.820 to sit with people whose kids had just taken their life, that wasn't play in the basketball kind of

00:33:37.340 sense. But it was something that I love doing because I thought it was the right. I knew I was

00:33:43.100 good at it. I knew I'd practiced it. I knew I was at it. So it had the components of,

00:33:48.180 I mean, play is a harsh way to say that, but it had the very similar components to it.

00:33:53.240 I understand what you're saying. And so I think the idea that you have to do one or the other,

00:33:57.800 I wrote about this. I told this story. It's kind of a throwaway story in the book,

00:34:00.980 but it was maybe the harshest moment for me. I live out in just outside of Nashville and it gets

00:34:06.020 real rural, real quick out here in Tennessee. And dude, I'm with this guy. He's my son's a little

00:34:11.820 league coach. He's an amazing coach. His name's David. And we were just having a drink, hanging

00:34:16.760 out one day after practice. And our boys were playing together, just running around the restaurant,

00:34:21.140 whatever. And I said, what do you do? And he is the assistant director for technology at a local

00:34:27.460 middle school. Maybe he's at a high school now. I said, awesome. And I was like, okay, so he's a

00:34:31.840 veteran. I was like, okay, so you've got all this leadership, all this training. What's next?

00:34:35.580 Like, are you going to become like the head IT guy or the chief information officer? And he looked at me

00:34:40.220 kind of funny. And he said words that I had never heard. He said, Delaney, I'm in my dream job.

00:34:46.680 And I was like, what? And he said, I get to help teachers every single day,

00:34:51.260 fix their technology problems so that they can teach these kids. These kids got to learn how to do this.

00:34:56.060 And I was like, what? And my first thought was probably like yours. Oh, you're just going to quit.

00:35:01.240 You're just going to park it. And it was, no, dude, I'm doing exactly what I was put on earth to do.

00:35:08.260 I'm not going to park it for one second. I'm going to keep learning how to get better at

00:35:11.480 technology. I'm going to keep learning how to be better at communicator. I'm going to help these

00:35:14.300 teachers learn a little bit better. And I'm not going to make a bunch of money. So I'm going to

00:35:18.120 have to be okay with a Corolla life or a Camry life. The idea that I'm going to be a suburban guy

00:35:23.480 is never going to happen. I'm never going to afford a $100,000 car. Totally at peace with that.

00:35:27.200 And I realized, oh, I'm the one who's not well. Because as soon as I get the suburban, I'm like,

00:35:31.580 all right, when do we get the Raptor? And after you get the Raptor, it's like, all right,

00:35:34.980 when can I, and it doesn't stop because I'm using achievement as a drug, man. And so parking,

00:35:42.360 it feels like failure parking. It feels like you're a loser. And so I think the idea that I

00:35:47.840 have to either play or I have to either work. You've been around those guys over at origin that

00:35:53.560 are just like smiling while they're like, what are you guys doing? Right. Because they have,

00:35:57.880 they're playing a bigger role in the world and they know it. And it's, it's as much play for them as it

00:36:03.200 is work. And so I think when it comes to parenting, dude, we have to make peace with

00:36:07.480 parenting is very, very boring. It's very boring day in and day out. And we have to make peace with

00:36:13.480 that discipline of, I just got to keep showing up. I got to keep showing up. Same as lifting

00:36:17.620 weights, man. Some days just squats are awful. They're boring. They suck. You get through rep,

00:36:21.840 you know, set three and you got three more to go. I, my bot. Okay. We've got it. I can just quit.

00:36:26.440 No, I got to do the other three. It's kicking the soccer ball. Your kid is going to the stupid

00:36:30.420 park again. Right. Yeah. Um, that's it. I think it's just discipline. You keep showing up and you

00:36:35.160 keep showing up. You tell your kids over time with your behavior, you are worth the most precious

00:36:39.860 resource I have, which is my time. And I showed you that over the last 18 years. And that to me is,

00:36:45.060 that's just discipline, man. Cause it's not, it's not always fun. Yeah, for sure. You take your kid

00:36:49.400 hunting, you're going to miss deer, right? You're going to miss them because your kid's like,

00:36:54.220 dad, I got a P God, dude. Like this is where we're at, man. It's part of it. Yeah.

00:37:00.520 Guys, I'm going to step away from the conversation very quickly. Uh, you have likely heard me talk

00:37:04.520 about the iron council for the past month or so now. I'm still going to talk about the iron

00:37:09.020 council, although it's closed. We closed it up, uh, the beginning of October. And so if you want

00:37:14.120 to join with us, you're going to have to wait a couple of months because we're getting these new

00:37:16.940 guys on board and up to speed and ramped up and getting them to change their lives. But there is

00:37:21.680 something that you can do. You can check out the battle ready program. This is a free course at 17

00:37:27.300 emails. And all of those emails are designed to walk you through our battle planning system that

00:37:32.140 literally tens of thousands of men have gone through now to improve their relationships,

00:37:36.000 to foster and rekindle romantic relationships, uh, to connect with their children, to losing 50,

00:37:43.660 60, 70, a hundred pounds, to improving their strength, to getting the next promotion in

00:37:49.020 jujitsu, to picking up new hobbies, to developing new friends, to making more money, to starting new

00:37:54.540 businesses. Guys, these are all things that you're interested in. And this is exactly what we're

00:37:59.680 doing, not only in the iron council, but teeing you up with the battle ready program. So if you're

00:38:04.300 interested in this free program and getting the last part of 2023, which is wild off to a good,

00:38:12.360 not off to a good start closing with the, with a good finish, I should say,

00:38:15.540 then go to order a man.com slash battle ready, order a man.com slash battle ready. You can sign

00:38:21.720 up for that program. And then when we open up the iron council, you'll be, uh, you'll be ready to go

00:38:26.020 again, order a man.com slash battle ready. All right, let's get back to it with John.

00:38:31.260 I was thinking about it. When I moved back to Utah, I've got in my garage out here,

00:38:34.620 I've got a 99 Toyota Tacoma that I love. I've had the thing for almost 20 years, actually 21 years.

00:38:40.540 Yeah. 21 years. I've owned that thing and I didn't take it to Maine, but when I moved back,

00:38:45.420 I picked it back up and it didn't run and everything else. And I haven't told many people

00:38:49.300 like, Oh, I traded in and upgraded. I'm like, I'm not trading this thing in for nothing.

00:38:52.940 And I depreciated it all the way up. I love it, man. I love this thing. And so I've still got it

00:38:57.920 out there and I'm not trading it in, but you know what I'm doing? I'm investing into it, right? Like

00:39:02.720 rhino lining the bed. I'm going to lift it. I'm going to put some new tires, put some new wheels.

00:39:06.480 I had to buy these stupid little keys to get the old stereo out. So I could pull that out and put

00:39:10.740 a new stereo in that has Bluetooth. Like I'm not trading the thing in. I'm just enhancing what

00:39:17.400 already is. So I'm still progressing and moving forward without having to trade it in or think

00:39:21.620 that, you know, I'll feel happier if I have a 2024 Toyota Tacoma instead of the 99 Toyota Tacoma I have

00:39:29.140 today. Well, and you're doing, you're, you're, you're building a non-anxious life. You're deciding I'm

00:39:35.540 to spend 5,000 bucks a year that I have in cash and I'm going to make this thing new. I'm going to

00:39:40.840 make this thing whole again. And I've already depreciated it completely out. And my identity

00:39:46.560 is not found in the newest, shiniest thing that I'm going to have to continue to chase for the rest

00:39:50.100 of my life. And I'm not going to enslave myself to Toyota motor company. And they're going to tell

00:39:55.560 me what I'm going to do every month. They're going to tell me how many podcasts I release because I owe

00:39:58.820 them. I'm not going to live like that. And when you unhook yourself from the matrix in that way,

00:40:04.140 then you wake up. I just watching you smile, talking about that truck is like made me in a

00:40:10.960 better mood, dude. That because you have unhooked yourself from the matrix and you have said, no,

00:40:16.140 dude, I'm going to make that thing beautiful again. And Hey, not to get all religious. That's the

00:40:19.600 gospel, dude. That's resurrection. That's renewal. That's all things new. That is saying there's still

00:40:24.580 value there and I'm going to go, I'm going to go make it. And I think that story pulses through our

00:40:29.740 culture, dude. And if we, if we, if we're willing to go look for it and find it, I like what you just

00:40:34.000 said. I take notes as I do this. I've got a bunch of notes from all my guests and I'm taking notes.

00:40:37.700 And you said something, you said, there's still value there. I think there's a lot of guys and

00:40:42.100 I felt this way. And at times, even now I feel that way. Like, Oh, what value do I have to add

00:40:46.660 to the world? Here I am tarnished and diminished, but what value do I have? There is still value.

00:40:51.920 It's inherent. It's in you. Um, we just have to uncover and explore it. And you know,

00:40:56.700 the other thing I wrote about play, cause you were talking about with your psychology practice and

00:41:01.000 therapy practice, like it plays not the right word, but if we extract the, the characteristics

00:41:07.880 of play, here's what I wrote down. There's intrigue, there's fascination, there's wonder,

00:41:11.940 there's curiosity. Um, those things can exist in dire situations when you're dealing with people's

00:41:18.960 horrific situations and they can exist when you're trying to make a little round basketball

00:41:23.440 into a little round hoop. Right. And there's really sucky parts. I hated having to drive all

00:41:29.360 the way back to the precinct with the police department I was working for and fill out the

00:41:35.060 paperwork. I hated that part, but it had to be done. And I also, and if you're a professional

00:41:40.520 athlete, there are parts of that job that are miserable, but you hate, right? So I think the,

00:41:45.300 the division is just a false one. I think it's a false one. Often it's what we bring you. And by the way,

00:41:50.420 value, dude, you take an average man and you ask him this question, what are you worth?

00:41:58.180 The fact that we answer that with a number tells us how sick we are. What are you worth?

00:42:04.040 It's all of your, uh, 401 stuff and your retirement and your pension and what you have in the checking

00:42:09.140 account and those two guitars and your uncle's chest of drawers, he left you. What are you worth?

00:42:14.740 Anytime you answer that with a number, you have missed the mark. And I'm convinced what are you

00:42:20.060 worth is answered. Who do you love? And who loves you? That's what you're worth. And that other crap

00:42:26.060 will take care of itself. That's where you talk about like people like Dudley, people like Dave Ramsey,

00:42:30.780 and I haven't spent time with Dudley. I've spent a ton of time with Dave. That guy is obsessed.

00:42:36.780 I would say pathologically with making sure other people have tools to help their lives be better.

00:42:44.300 Dudley appears to be pathologically obsessed with helping people cut through the nonsense and

00:42:49.780 become the best archer that could possibly be. And when he hears charlatans, it makes him bananas.

00:42:56.480 Cam Haynes appears to be obsessed with elk hunting, but honoring that animal, I will not leave one

00:43:02.220 second of my life on the table in order to give that animal the most dignified passing it can,

00:43:07.700 it can get the big dignified death that it can get. Um, so when you start looking at my, my value is

00:43:14.400 I will lay down my life for all of whoever's out there, whoever this audience happens to be.

00:43:19.740 That's a, I mean, you're getting into a totally different ball game. And I think most of us see

00:43:23.200 hard chargers and look at their bank accounts and say, how do I get that thing? How do I get their

00:43:26.480 influence? It is, how do I find something that I'm willing to lay down everything for? And that's,

00:43:31.460 that's pretty significant.

00:43:32.600 Yeah. Hmm. How do you find that? I mean, I, I feel like, I feel like just from the outside

00:43:38.160 looking in, it seems like you found that path. I feel like I found that path, even on the bad days.

00:43:42.320 I'm like, you know, there's days I'm like, I don't want to do this. I'm done. I'm just, of course,

00:43:46.740 like I don't have any value to add. Like, I don't know what else I'm doing. Like people just need

00:43:51.020 to figure it out. I'm done. And then, you know, 30 seconds later, I'm like, no, I'm not, what are you?

00:43:55.440 I'm not done. Like there's so much more. What are you talking about? So I feel like I found that,

00:43:59.400 but how do men who are struggling in that department find that for themselves?

00:44:03.380 I honestly don't know other than show up. And my dad, I think until he was homicide guy and he

00:44:08.080 worked SWAT. And I remember the first time I went into a situation and had to tell a mom

00:44:12.160 that her son had died by suicide in the next room over. And dude, he had painted that room with him,

00:44:18.540 with his brains. Right. And my job was to not let her in that room. Like you cannot go,

00:44:24.020 that cannot be the last picture you have of your kid. And we need to have this conversation.

00:44:29.400 Oh, actually, this is the one in the, yeah, this is not that one. This is in the shower. And here's

00:44:33.600 where this was heartbreaking. That young man went through so much work to make sure that this,

00:44:42.520 the scene would be as clean as humanly possible for his, the people who had to come after.

00:44:46.940 And it made me like, if you had, if he had just been able to see the care with which he had for those

00:44:52.500 in his life, if he had been able to see that he was worthy of that care too, that they loved him that

00:44:58.280 much also. But I remember calling my dad who had, you know, it was a homicide. He'd been in so many

00:45:04.560 places. And I remember telling him it was late. And I said, dad, I saw this and this. And his

00:45:08.320 first response is, you're not supposed to see that. And I said, I know, but that's what I signed

00:45:11.400 up for. And I said, what are you supposed, what am I supposed to do when the greatest gift I have,

00:45:16.420 when my number one talent is giving people really hard news in a graceful way. And he got kind of

00:45:22.620 quiet. And he said, uh, in his Texas cop stoic way, he said, be really grateful. You found your

00:45:29.360 thing. Cause most people never do. And then he said, and make sure you do it really, really well.

00:45:33.780 And so I think for me, I kept showing up in situations and showing up and showing up and

00:45:37.760 showing up. And so if you're trying to find your purpose, keep showing up, man, keep volunteering

00:45:42.600 and keep following your nose. Not what everyone tells you should be doing, but I want to do this.

00:45:46.080 And I kind of like this. And what are you good at? And what do people make you practice? And what do

00:45:49.420 you, I think you keep showing up and showing up and showing up. And eventually you realize I am the

00:45:54.860 best assistant manager there is. I'm not ever going to be the manager. I don't ever want to talk to the

00:46:00.080 super fired up, angry person, but when that person gets done, I can make, I can help out

00:46:04.980 whatever the thing is you find, man. It keeps showing up, but I don't know another way.

00:46:08.860 You can't will yourself. You can't manifest that bull crap, whatever nonsense. You can't

00:46:12.320 Instagram your way. I think you have to show up in person, keep showing up, keep showing up.

00:46:15.940 I like that. Be the best at what you're currently doing. The only other thing I would think is

00:46:19.280 make sure you explore curiosities because a lot of times people won't like, they'll be interested

00:46:23.300 in something like hunting is a great example. Oh yeah. You know how many guys I hear that I want to

00:46:28.900 hunt. I want to learn how to hunt. I'm like, cool. Go on a hunt. Here's, here's a chance.

00:46:31.860 Like, well, I don't know. I'm busy. Exactly. Finances are tight. I don't, my, I don't know

00:46:36.500 if my wife would appreciate it. I'm like, okay, then you don't want to hunt. You want to want to

00:46:42.060 hunt. That's okay. You want to have that Instagram picture. It will never be worth it. And when you're

00:46:47.800 holding a dead animal, an animal that died, it, you're going to feel really, you're going to feel so

00:46:52.720 disgusting. If you, if you shot the animal for a photo, if that family, if that, if that animal,

00:46:57.240 my son and I have a ritual and we pray over the animal and think it for giving up its life so that

00:47:02.140 our family could eat. And when you, when you honor a part of a process that way, that's a totally

00:47:08.220 different ball game. Right. But people want to want to do a whole bunch of things, man. I want,

00:47:12.480 dude, I want to want to be in the car so bad. I do, man. I so bad. And I just, I drive a Highlander,

00:47:20.120 man. I have a Highlander, an old, an old pickup truck and it's got good gas mileage. And that's

00:47:25.040 what I care about right now. I so bad, Ryan, want to want to do these things. I just, but

00:47:29.180 that's not gonna be my thing. And that's all right. That's all right. I felt that way about

00:47:33.540 the guitar. I'm like, I want to, I want to want to be like about the guitar. I've got a guitar out

00:47:39.000 there. I think I picked it up three months ago. I'm like, why did I don't, I don't need to do this.

00:47:45.100 Like, I don't, I don't have to do this, but I found myself falling into that trap because I think

00:47:49.720 there's a danger in the self-development self-help space because guys will listen to people like you.

00:47:55.460 They'll listen to people like me. They'll hear what you're into. They'll hear what I'm into.

00:47:59.020 And they're like, oh, well then I must have to do that thing. Guys, like you don't have to do my

00:48:03.400 thing. Like if you want to pursue it, chase it, check it out, whatever. Like, but find your own

00:48:09.240 thing. Like cooking. People tell me all the time, I love cooking. You should do cooking because of this

00:48:13.000 and that. And I'm like, I don't enjoy cooking because you're doing it wrong. No, I'm not doing it wrong.

00:48:17.360 It's because I don't enjoy it. I don't like it. There's nothing you could tell me that's like,

00:48:23.120 well, if you had the right tools and you cook this way and you had this certain thing. No,

00:48:28.460 I don't like it. And I've become okay with that. And that's the magic. I'm okay with it. I also

00:48:34.120 think this, um, I think what you curiosity, I think is one of the most important underrated, um,

00:48:40.960 uh, mindsets we can have just being curious about stuff. Why do I want to do this particular

00:48:45.360 thing in bed? Why, why, why, why all of a sudden am I angry about this thing that this guy just cut

00:48:52.000 me off or whatever being real curious, I think is an extraordinary mindset for, for going through

00:48:57.020 life. Um, there's this, uh, Japanese minimalist, um, last name Sasaki. And he talks about then it's

00:49:06.020 kind of woo, but it pissed me off how right it was. He, uh, says that every, every inanimate object

00:49:13.580 in your home is always having a conversation with you, whether you know it or not. And I was

00:49:18.300 like, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard. And then I went down and in my basement, I have

00:49:23.060 in one corner, all of this lines of bookshelves and right. I'm, I come from higher ed. I'm a nerd.

00:49:28.320 So I've got books everywhere that were huge virtue signals to anyone who came into my office as to

00:49:33.460 look how smart I am. Look at the books I've read. Um, and I've got my hunting gear, my guitars on

00:49:38.740 another wall. And then I got like a, like a air hockey table, a real cheap air hockey table I bought

00:49:44.680 for me and my son. And I just sat in the basement real quiet and dude, it was this as though a

00:49:52.620 chorus erupted. These books are like, are you just going to stay stupid forever? Are you just

00:49:56.300 going to continue to lie to people? You haven't read half of these. Um, are you going to keep

00:49:59.760 them in the house? And then my hunting stuff was like, are you just not going to shoot the bow

00:50:03.140 anymore? Is that what we're doing here? You're going to be just that guy who just sits in a lawn

00:50:06.540 chair and shoots a deer from 600 yards away. Cause you can't that we're doing. And then the

00:50:10.400 guitars are like, remember, we were cool. Remember that? Remember when your wife liked you? And I

00:50:14.200 mean, it just went on and on. And so I have to do the work of one of two things. You, you got the

00:50:19.240 guitar. I'm going to try this. And you're like, yeah, I don't like the guitar. I think there is

00:50:23.040 something to be said for moving that guitar onto its new place and taking it out of your environment.

00:50:30.540 Because I do, there is a correlation between clutter. There's a correlation between stuff

00:50:35.080 and an anxious mind. That's always toggling back and forth between the stuff I should be doing.

00:50:40.640 And I could be doing, and I need to be doing. And there's something to be said for it. I hate

00:50:43.900 cooking. I don't like cooking. I'm out, right? I'm not going to be a cook. Um, I, and I'm the same

00:50:49.160 way. I would love to be a Traeger guy. I'm not, I'm not. It frustrates me. I ruin a great backstrap

00:50:55.180 and I get so mad. It's just, I'm not good at it. And I don't, and not only am I not good at it,

00:50:59.460 I don't want to invest the time it would take to be good at it. And I'm at peace with that. That's

00:51:05.240 cool. My wife is awesome. And does that make me a little more fragile? Yeah, it does, but that's

00:51:09.660 cool. My wife knows that, uh, she's a better cook than me and I'm cool with that. So I think it's just

00:51:14.560 make a peace with it. But then the next step is I'm going to get that stuff out of my environment

00:51:18.080 and move on with my, I'm going to make peace with it. And, and for me, that war right now is those

00:51:21.720 books. It's there's a season coming when I'm going to have to declutter those books and stop,

00:51:25.920 start telling myself the truth and clear my environment out. All right, man, I'm going to

00:51:30.420 send you a text with a picture. When I remove that guitar, I kind of, I kind of want to give

00:51:33.880 it to somebody else who would use it, but I also kind of want to smash it at the same time. So I'm

00:51:37.320 deciding which route to go right now. But when I send that, I better get a picture from you that

00:51:42.500 says you've decluttered your, uh, I'll have a box of books. I will. I'll do it. Um, I was thinking

00:51:48.540 about it when you were talking about the, when we were talking about the cooking and the Traeger and

00:51:52.460 everything else. And, um, I, I broke down actually this morning and I jumped on a couple of different

00:51:57.300 sites that offer like pre foods things. Like they'll send you all the ingredients that you need.

00:52:03.420 And I'm like, this is cheating. And then at the same time, like, this is not cheating. Like,

00:52:07.080 I don't want to do that. I don't want to go to the grocery store. I don't want to find what spices

00:52:11.380 and how much goes into what thing. Like all it does is it allows me to focus on my kids more on things I

00:52:17.060 enjoy. It allows me to focus on the work. It allows me to focus on the things that I want to focus on.

00:52:21.360 It's not cheating. It's, it's a tool. It's a resource. Let's use it to the best of our ability.

00:52:26.200 I think the word you just use, if you can, if we can stop all of the posturing, like that's not

00:52:30.600 ancestral dude, it's a tool. It is a tool. And I'm super glad that I've got my fancy knife now.

00:52:38.340 And I don't have to break down a deer with a rock. I'm really glad about that. It's a tool. And in your

00:52:43.880 case, I'm a new single dad trying to figure this out. I'm super glad I live in a sliver of history

00:52:48.720 where they will drop food off at my front door. That's rad. Let's honor that and move on with our

00:52:53.440 freaking days and stop judging each other over like, Oh my, how did you, man? And my wife, here's

00:52:58.380 the deal. She grows her own stuff and then she makes her own rubs and spices and stuff. That's awesome

00:53:03.600 too. That is awesome. And we can also say, how cool is it that she lives in a sliver of history when

00:53:09.220 that's, she's got enough gap space in her time that she can follow this gardening thing down a

00:53:15.520 rabbit hole. And her husband didn't die in war and she's not a single mom trying to work three jobs

00:53:20.380 to, so let's all just be grateful and shut up and quit bagging on each other and be grateful that

00:53:25.680 we live in this little sliver of history and let's go do right by those things, not use them to access

00:53:30.000 so that we can Netflix ourselves to death. I hear that with the hunting stuff. People are like, Oh,

00:53:34.640 well, you'll use this rifle or use this compound bow. And I, I asked, this is what I asked. Like,

00:53:39.320 where'd you get your meat? Like at the grocery store? I'm like, cool. Then the grocery store is

00:53:42.640 your tool. My tool is this. Let's not critique each other. Like I like the grocery store. It's

00:53:48.800 pretty cool that I don't need to grow carrots and then like wash them off and like wait months for

00:53:53.880 them to grow to the right thing. Like, it's pretty cool. I can walk in and I'm like, you know what?

00:53:58.000 I need 17 burgers to feed my sons and their friends today. Like, I don't, I don't want to give them my

00:54:03.520 moose meat. I'm going to give them some cheap burger to eat. Like that's pretty cool. And

00:54:07.380 that's a tool that I'm going to use. And that's it. It's nothing more or less than that.

00:54:11.300 Or that when your son comes home and says, dad, I want to have community and you don't have to go

00:54:15.400 butcher a family cow in order to make that happen. Right. Yeah. You can say cool. Yeah. I think it's

00:54:21.760 just, so there's just some gratitude and that just comes back from the man, if I could look at my

00:54:26.920 neighbor and they pull in with a new car and my first thought is dude, yes, they are doing it.

00:54:33.820 Instead of that's bullcrap. I mean, if you can flip that switch, dude, that is a powerful way to live

00:54:40.020 your life. One thing that you've said a couple of times, I'm really curious. Cause it was an

00:54:44.660 interesting way to say, as you said, I don't, I didn't have a psychology for dot, dot, dot. Like

00:54:48.700 I don't have a psychology for this. I don't have a psychology for that. What do you mean by that?

00:54:52.520 Um, so there's some pretty remarkable neuroscience studies and I don't get too dorky, but essentially

00:54:57.920 your brain develops a map for, um, safe, warm, caring relationships to your parents.

00:55:06.660 And, and I'll just say mom and dad, and that's just, I know I'm overgeneralizing and everybody's

00:55:10.040 life is different, but let's just go with that. When you make friends or you have a football coach,

00:55:15.920 or you find somebody that you're romantically interested in, your brain uses that same highway

00:55:20.900 for this is what relationship is. This is what safety is. This is what, um, love and warmth feels

00:55:27.640 like. That's why childhood trauma is so bad and ricochets through your family, through your life

00:55:31.800 so long, because your body's like, Hey, we remember this, this got us hurt. We got to come up with some

00:55:36.660 numbing and protective strategies over here, 15 years into your marriage, right? Whatever the thing is.

00:55:40.860 And so similarly, if achievement was how you were given a nod from your dad, if you were only welcome

00:55:51.440 in this home, if the report card looks a certain way, then that becomes not, we make it into like,

00:55:58.220 Oh, you're so weak, dude sucker. It becomes your nervous system so that when you are 36 and you have

00:56:05.360 a day off, your body literally doesn't know what to do because it's not safe anymore. Cause the only

00:56:11.760 thing that it knows is safe is get your ass on the grindstone and get going. And so I think we turn

00:56:17.820 all this stuff into weakness and cowardice and whatever. No, dude, it's your body over years trying to

00:56:23.400 keep you safe. And so when I say I don't have a psychology, when my wife said, we don't have, we don't,

00:56:27.380 we have enough. That was not her saying, stop working. That was not her saying, um, it was saying,

00:56:34.160 stop killing yourself. We're safe now. And that's when I was like, Oh, I don't have that map

00:56:39.640 upstairs. That map doesn't exist. I'm going to have to practice that map and literally let my body

00:56:45.740 and brain catch up to, I'm feeling really anxious right now. It's Saturday morning. I've done all

00:56:50.920 my mowing. I've done all of my work. My kids are off doing their school things. The smartest thing

00:56:57.120 for my, the best thing I could do for my family is to take two hours and read this book and prop my feet

00:57:01.680 up. It's a rest between rounds for my family. I'm going to have to practice feeling awkward

00:57:07.320 and uncomfortable and like a loser and like I should be doing something. And then I'll go hit

00:57:12.100 it up in a couple hours. But right now, the greatest gift I could give my family is to be rested in of,

00:57:17.100 of one mind. And dude, I just have to practice that because I didn't have, I didn't have the

00:57:21.280 psychology and I have a wiring for it. It's new. How do you know, how do you know what maps to follow

00:57:27.200 though? So for example, I'll give you a couple of examples. Your example was sitting down, reading

00:57:31.380 a book, kicking your feet up. My map tells me, or my psychology, if we're using those terms

00:57:36.100 interchangeably tells me, yeah, don't, don't do that. Like unless you're reading this book,

00:57:41.440 because you're preparing for this conversation, like the rest of it is wasted and you got other

00:57:47.060 shit to do. Or another one that, that I've experienced. And I know a lot of guys are experiencing

00:57:52.300 is, you know, going through a separation or a divorce relationships do that's going to hurt

00:57:58.640 you. Like, don't do that. And if you get far enough down the path into relationship,

00:58:02.460 all these red flags start coming up subconsciously to say, alarm, alarm, alarm, alarm. You're getting

00:58:07.540 too close. You're getting too attached. This is going to hurt you. So how do you know which maps to

00:58:12.360 follow? And then if you choose the right maps, how do you, do you just force yourself to do it?

00:58:18.120 No, I think this goes back to, you know, I've talked about this a bunch of times. It goes back

00:58:26.260 to that chief pathology of our time is we're the loneliest generation in human history. And we've

00:58:31.300 created this world. You don't go like, they don't send the SEAL team in this alley without eyes in the

00:58:38.560 sky, man. You've got to have people looking for you. And when, well, we know one thing is when,

00:58:44.040 or I know one thing, when I get emotional, when I get fired up about something or when I get hurt on

00:58:47.660 something, then I no longer am able to read that scenario. Okay. In a factual way, my body goes

00:58:54.040 full on. And so I have a couple of guys. So for instance, when I, um, I might just to use this

00:59:01.180 word, which I think is just kind of eye rolly working at this university here at Belmont in

00:59:05.860 Nashville. That was my dream job. That was it. It's a billion dollar college. It's debt for it's

00:59:10.400 amazing place. And it is extraordinary. That was it. And then I met Dave Ramsey and he said, Hey,

00:59:16.220 I, uh, I can transform your life and you can help a whole bunch of people.

00:59:20.140 And I flew home to Texas with two guys that I went to college with that were roommates.

00:59:25.020 And we went out and had chips and queso and sitting over some, like a diabetics, like pre-diabetic meal.

00:59:32.600 And I said, um, here's what I'm thinking about doing. And both of them said, cause I was emotional.

00:59:37.440 Number one, I'm with this icon. I'm emotional. Cause I'm at this, my dream job here. I'm emotional.

00:59:42.800 Cause I'm a poor, I still have the psychology of a poor cop's kid that everyone's out to get us.

00:59:47.660 All those things were at the table. And I knew I'm not, I'm going to make a gut decision. I'm

00:59:51.860 not going to make it a rational one. And my buddies, I sat down and laid it out the picture.

00:59:55.860 And one friend goes, I think you're crazy. And then he got quiet and he goes, and I think this

01:00:00.640 is right. And my other buddy said, my other buddy said, I look forward to hearing you on the radio.

01:00:05.440 That's how I answered the question. And so I couldn't see it. And so I had people in my life

01:00:09.640 that I could, I could balance that off. And so in your situation, you're going to date somebody

01:00:13.540 if you haven't already, and you're going to get three months in and your body will do its best

01:00:18.680 to find every red flag you can find. It will stop you from hurting yourself. That's its job to keep

01:00:24.180 you from going over the cliff and having one or two guys that you go, Hey, is this like, she,

01:00:30.020 she does this and I love it, but man, I get all wigged out when that happens. And they're like,

01:00:35.560 no, dude, everyone says that. That's awesome. And you go, okay, all right, I'm going to head

01:00:40.400 back in. Right. Or if your body's rattling, get your attention. You can say, Hey, I think

01:00:44.000 I'm going to back out of this. And they'll go, yeah, you're right. You're right. And so I think

01:00:46.980 I outsource some of that stuff to a group of men that I trust, which is why what you do is so

01:00:51.400 important. It teaches men how to have community, but I outsource that stuff, especially at the

01:00:56.300 beginning. Um, because I'm untrustworthy when I'm fired up. I'm writing these untrustworthy.

01:01:02.300 That's interesting. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm emotionally untrustworthy. I'll say that way.

01:01:05.560 I always tell the truth, but I'm emotionally untrustworthy. I like that. Yeah. And dude,

01:01:10.020 my feelings, they're not, you've heard this as old internet trope by now. Our feelings are not

01:01:14.780 designed to tell us the truth. That's not their job. Right. Their job is to keep you not dead.

01:01:20.040 That's it. And so when your boys run into the street, chasing a soccer ball, you scream,

01:01:24.540 you're going to get hit by a car. There's no car coming. You're just trying to get your kid out

01:01:28.260 of the street. Right. The job there isn't a hundred percent truth telling the job there is don't get

01:01:33.440 out of the road. And so feelings, feelings, that's not their job, man. It's not their job,

01:01:37.400 but man, they sure, they sure, uh, sound like the truth. Very, very convincing. We'll say it that way.

01:01:45.340 Very convincing. Yeah. Well, John, I appreciate it, man. We didn't really get to the book,

01:01:49.460 but we talked about it even before we hit record. We're done. That was an hour, man. Believe it or

01:01:54.860 not. Um, I don't want to talk about the book. Cause guys can just go read it. Like,

01:02:00.320 I don't need to tell you what it's like. It's like doing a presentation with PowerPoint. It's

01:02:05.100 like, if, if you just wanted to read the PowerPoint, I'll just send it to you. You can

01:02:08.360 read it on your own time. So I would suggest the guys can read the book on their own time.

01:02:11.680 I would suggest they do, but I wanted to have a different conversation than just what was in the

01:02:15.740 book. Of course. I appreciate that. Um, and I want to end with this dude. Um, two things. One again,

01:02:22.360 thank you for hospitality. Um, you're one of the few guys in this space I can count on even just to

01:02:27.080 shoot a text and say, you're doing okay. So I'm grateful for that, man. Yeah. Like, um,

01:02:31.220 the second one is, um, uh, let me say it. Let me say it like this. All the things we were talking

01:02:38.440 about is not an excuse to cash out of your life. It is not an excuse to not go to the gym. It's not

01:02:43.980 an excuse to not be the best you can possibly be. And then some at your academic endeavor at getting

01:02:50.620 your grades at signing up for military service at doing your job at being a parent, whatever,

01:02:55.720 trying to go back in and figure out your marriage or to like, you start over again.

01:03:00.140 You do these things so that you can do that. You eat good food so that you can show up at the gym.

01:03:07.500 You exercise show. You can show up in, in real time. You get good sleep so that you can be

01:03:13.320 clear headed in the morning with your kids. Similarly, if you run around, do chasing finish

01:03:20.200 lines that are imaginary, like dollar amounts in cars and job titles and all this crap, you chase

01:03:26.860 around six by six bulls. You're going to miss the whole reason you were hunting in the first place.

01:03:32.380 You're going to miss the whole thing. And so all this crap is not a chance. It's not, it's not the,

01:03:37.440 like the wimpification of everything. And like, Oh, it's just soft. No, dude, it is teaching

01:03:42.820 fighters. You have to sit down between rounds. You have to, so that you can come back in for

01:03:49.580 the next round, fully ready to go. And I think it's a both end approach that we have really kind

01:03:53.960 of missed. Um, we've hit that pendulum so far the other way that we have to catch it in the middle

01:03:59.840 and say, it's both. And yeah, that's powerful, man. We'll tell the guys how to connect with you,

01:04:04.600 where to pick up a copy of the book and, uh, learn more about what you're up to.

01:04:08.200 Yeah. I mean, you can go to John Deloney.com same as, um, always. And I think if it comes out

01:04:12.500 October 3rd, you can get it on Amazon. You get it everywhere. You get in the stores and everywhere.

01:04:16.720 Um, and you can follow me at John Deloney and, uh, after, and only after you listen to the

01:04:22.260 Michler podcast, you can catch my show, uh, the Dr. John Deloney show. And it's just old school

01:04:28.620 people call in with mental health and marriage and parenting challenges. And we just figure it out

01:04:33.160 together. Yeah, man. I love it. I I'm, I'm obviously we're friends, but outside of that,

01:04:37.920 being able to listen to you on Instagram or on the show and like hear things that I'd have

01:04:41.600 questions about has been very, very good for me too. So brother, I appreciate you. I'm looking

01:04:46.180 forward to getting some hunting in together and, uh, getting to know each other better. And,

01:04:49.640 and obviously just being each other corner and helping each other out. Thanks for joining me

01:04:52.500 today. I appreciate that. We may have some, uh, muley tags in, uh, private land muley tags in

01:04:57.560 there in a beaver, Utah up the road from you. Yeah. It's like an hour from me. So I'll holler at you.

01:05:03.280 I'll holler at you. Holler at me. I'll come spot for you or break something down or just be a pack mule,

01:05:07.280 whatever I need to do. I'll come up and spend time with you. You've, you've got to, you've got

01:05:11.000 to learn how to cook, man. So you got to get your own. No, I'm not doing that. I'm not, I'm,

01:05:15.080 I'm comfortable with not cooking. So deal with it. Excellent. Excellent. Thanks, brother.

01:05:20.780 Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. All right, man. Powerful, powerful stuff with my good friend,

01:05:26.000 John Deloney. Him and I are going to get on a hunt very soon. I've been inviting him. He just keeps

01:05:29.520 declining. He's got, uh, he's got a busy schedule, including this book. And I know how important it is

01:05:33.900 for him to get this out here because he, he declined coming on a hunt with me because it's

01:05:38.540 book release week or something like that. So look, I get it. I know what it's like to

01:05:43.920 pour your heart and soul into something and want to see it be successful and improve people's lives.

01:05:48.420 And that's what this guy cares about. So if you would make sure you check out a copy of his book,

01:05:53.420 building a non-anxious life by Dr. John Deloney. Uh, make sure you check out the battle ready

01:05:58.100 program, order a man.com slash battle ready. And then outside of that guys, just take a screenshot right

01:06:03.460 now real quick and shoot a text over to a friend, post it up on Instagram, post it up on Facebook,

01:06:09.360 post it up on X, wherever you are, post it, let people know what you're listening to tag me, tag

01:06:13.640 John, and let's get after it. Most importantly today, guys, join the battle ready program and let's

01:06:19.380 get this thing closed out. Good. All right. It's a October beginning of October, 2023. Let's close

01:06:25.380 this thing out. Right. I don't want to hear a bunch of posts about how 2023 is my warmup and 2024 is my

01:06:30.960 year. Really prove it. Prove that 2024 is your year by doing something different. That starts

01:06:35.880 at the battle ready program, order man.com slash battle ready. All right, guys, we'll be back

01:06:40.480 tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become a man. You are meant to be. Thank you for

01:06:45.360 listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man

01:06:50.300 you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at quarter of man.com.

Order of Man - October 03, 2023

DR. JOHN DELONY ｜ Annihilate Anxiousness

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