Order of Man - DR. WARREN FARRELL ｜ Male Privilege⧸Power： Fact or Fiction？

00:00:00.000 Many of us have been accused of perpetuating the concept of male privilege and male power.

00:00:04.920 Heaven forbid a man uses his God-given talents and abilities to lift his people up.

00:00:09.820 But too many misguided and damaged souls tend to see only the worst parts of the men in their vicinity or on social media and in the bright light of the entertainment industry.

00:00:21.240 Those men in no way are indicative of the general consensus of men, and yet many still view men as the premier problem in society today.

00:00:30.800 My guest today, Dr. Warren Farrell, helps unpack why that is not the case and, if anything, how genuine men are the cure to many of the ailments of modern times.

00:00:40.820 We talk about why men's issues are not just men's issues, the difference in what language men and women speak,

00:00:47.760 the male equivalents of the feminist movement, why men are more interested in garnering respect than love,

00:00:54.260 the dreaded V-word, vulnerability, and six mindsets to form powerful connections between men and women.

00:01:01.460 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.

00:01:04.420 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:01:07.360 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:11.840 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:16.360 This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:19.380 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:01:22.100 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:27.440 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:29.920 If you're new here, first of all, welcome.

00:01:32.400 And let me just take a quick second to tell you that is my goal to bring on the most successful men on the planet.

00:01:40.220 Scholars, athletes, warriors, New York Times bestselling authors, entertainers, et cetera, et cetera.

00:01:46.360 But to extract some of their wisdom, some of their knowledge, some of their hard-fought lessons and give them to you and me

00:01:52.880 so that we can go out and take those experiences and those lessons and learn from the victories of other people

00:01:58.660 and also the failures of other people.

00:02:00.320 We've had guys like Chris Williamson on the podcast, Dave Ramsey, Tim Tebow, Jocko Willing, Cam Haynes, David Goggins, Ben Shapiro, George Foreman.

00:02:09.360 Again, some of the most incredible men on the planet.

00:02:12.700 And I want to welcome you for being here and also say thank you for supporting this movement to reclaim and restore masculinity.

00:02:20.820 Now, I've got a very good one lined up with a three-peat guest today, Dr. Warren Farrell.

00:02:25.160 Before I introduce you to him, just want to mention my friends and our show sponsors,

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00:03:17.540 All right, let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:19.740 As I said earlier, a three-peat returning guest.

00:03:23.840 His works with his book, The Boy Crisis, have been instrumental in some of the work that we do here with our young men.

00:03:29.380 And in his latest book, Role Mate to Soulmate, he formulates the most powerful ways to connect deeply with the women in our lives.

00:03:37.660 Dr. Farrell is the author of eight books on men's and women's issues.

00:03:42.020 And as a previous supporter of second wave feminism turned leading figure in the men's rights movement,

00:03:47.920 he has seen firsthand the dangers and benefits of these movements and how we, as both men and women, ought to consider moving forward.

00:03:56.660 He's become a leading voice and champion for men in the wake of the destructive ideologies of the extreme feminist movement

00:04:03.180 and is here to talk with us today about how we navigate the landscape between men and women.

00:04:11.520 Dr. Farrell, it is so good to see you again.

00:04:13.840 We really haven't talked a whole lot since our last conversation,

00:04:16.580 but I think about you and your work, especially with The Boy Crisis, quite often actually,

00:04:20.940 especially with my co-host, Kip Sorensen.

00:04:23.600 I mentioned him to you.

00:04:25.400 We just cited your work, actually, I think just a couple of weeks ago on one of our podcasts.

00:04:30.060 And I love that book.

00:04:31.060 I know he does, too.

00:04:31.900 And I'm excited to talk with you about your latest book.

00:04:35.200 So welcome to the show.

00:04:36.960 Well, thank you.

00:04:37.460 I'm really glad that The Boy Crisis was impactful in your life.

00:04:41.300 And I know that last time we talked, I think it was a couple of years ago,

00:04:44.840 you had said that you'd use it with your sons and your daughter.

00:04:48.600 And so I was very pleased with that.

00:04:51.500 Yeah, it's really, it's a great book.

00:04:56.220 And it's interesting to me that it just becomes your work and my work just become more and more relevant over time.

00:05:02.360 Have you noticed that?

00:05:03.300 It just seems like there's more alienation against men, more hostility maybe even towards masculinity and manliness.

00:05:12.300 Is that something, is that a trend that you notice as well?

00:05:14.800 Or would you describe it differently?

00:05:16.000 Yes, I think the good news is that there, so the circumstances for men are getting overall worse and worse, 0.77

00:05:24.020 you know, to a greater degree than ever before.

00:05:27.100 Fewer men are graduating from college compared to women.

00:05:30.660 And this is not, you know, these men's issues are not just men's issues because, you know,

00:05:35.740 when women are in college, they don't want to have half, you know, twice the number of women as men 1.00

00:05:40.800 because that, you know, gives the odds of them, you know, they have to compete with a lot of other women if they're heterosexual for a man. 1.00

00:05:48.240 And so, and also, you know, when a woman graduates from college and a man doesn't and the numbers are getting closer and closer to two to one,

00:05:57.760 which is projected to be in about 10 years, those women don't, you know, most college graduates who are women are not that interested in marrying men who are college dropouts or who haven't even gone to college.

00:06:10.000 And so, you know, women have an inclination, you know, when, you know, they'll date a man and have sex with a man who's tall, good looking, but unemployed. 0.76

00:06:18.800 But if he's tall, good looking and unemployed, that's this, it ends with the sex.

00:06:22.900 It doesn't, it does, she doesn't look to him for, to be a future husband.

00:06:28.960 And so that's, you know, if men and women aren't progressing at about the same rate, there's a lot of angst that is created.

00:06:37.740 And so that's, it's not good for either sex.

00:06:41.500 And, you know, the, you know, men still committing suicide is four times as often as women are.

00:06:48.300 And, you know, being much more likely to die from drug overdoses and be addicted to video games and be addicted to porn.

00:06:54.780 These are all things that are continuing.

00:06:57.400 What is a little bit changed in a positive way is that there's been more recognition of boys and men's issues in the last year or two than there was previously.

00:07:07.100 And so that's beginning, so it's beginning to sort of become so bad that even, you know, deniers have to, have to sort of like, you know, realize that maybe we are, maybe we need to pay more attention to boys and men's issues.

00:07:22.800 It's interesting.

00:07:23.740 When I started doing this work in 2015, I received a lot of mockery based on guys don't need this.

00:07:33.480 There's no issue with men.

00:07:35.760 There's no war on masculinity.

00:07:37.980 There's no, there's, there's none of this.

00:07:39.660 And in 2024, I think I received significantly less scorn, mock and ridicule about the work that we're doing.

00:07:49.300 In fact, if anything, I am continually receiving positive and encouraging messages because there is clearly, I don't want to say a war against manliness and masculinity.

00:08:01.860 At a minimum, there's a dismissal of it.

00:08:04.800 And I think it's something that needs to be addressed.

00:08:07.760 You did say something interesting, though, about marriage.

00:08:11.260 And I wrote this down as you were saying this.

00:08:13.080 Tell me if you think I'm right.

00:08:14.080 And I wrote this down on a whim.

00:08:16.080 So tell me if you think I'm right.

00:08:18.120 Women marry potential is what I wrote. 1.00

00:08:20.480 Women marry potential and men marry beauty and fertility. 0.96

00:08:25.100 Agree or disagree?

00:08:25.980 Basically agree, especially the beauty part.

00:08:29.760 The fertility, many men don't, many men are okay about having children, okay about not having children.

00:08:36.560 Some men, of course, are very desirous of having children.

00:08:39.360 And if that's a strong thing for men, then fertility is an issue. 1.00

00:08:44.480 But if a woman wants a child and a man does not really want a child, but he's not sort of like super firm about it, they'll have a child.

00:08:53.720 And that will almost, you know, nine out of ten times I would say that that will happen.

00:08:59.580 But it's definitely true that men are interested in youth and beauty and addicted to it.

00:09:04.960 And women are interested in economic security and are addicted to it. 1.00

00:09:12.020 Even when they earn their own source of money, it's still very unlikely that a woman will earn a man that is, let's say, really a wonderful, not a provider protector, but a nurturer connector.

00:09:26.280 Women often will say to me things like, you know, oh, it's so unfair. 1.00

00:09:30.380 Men can be have-it-all men, but women can't be have-it-all women. 0.93

00:09:33.840 And I say, actually, that's not accurate.

00:09:35.580 But a woman can be a have-it-all woman. 1.00

00:09:38.420 Well, how?

00:09:39.300 And I go, well, she can focus on her career and go as high as she wishes to go and have children if she marries a man who is more of a nurturer connector man and would be happy to stay home and be with the children. 0.62

00:09:56.060 But there's one condition that you need to respect him because if he's home with the children full time and he doesn't feel your respect for that, then he will, he'll sense that.

00:10:11.100 And every man knows on some level, men don't usually articulate this, but they know on some level that if a woman, that a woman can't love a man, she doesn't respect.

00:10:20.320 And if he begins to go to a party and see that she's sort of like flirting with some of the top people in her company or whatever, he'll sense that and pick that up in the same way that you would pick it up if you were pregnant and you said, gee, do I look good to you?

00:10:39.520 And he said, oh, sweetie, you look just perfect to me.

00:10:41.580 And then he goes to a party and flirts with other, you know, quasi-anorexic women who don't have the tummy. 0.63

00:10:46.500 And so, you know, we're all sensitive to the way we're rejected.

00:10:52.440 And but, you know, the big thing is understanding that if only one sex wins, both sexes lose.

00:11:00.720 We're all in the same family boat.

00:11:03.780 And it's and during the last half century, we've paid attention to women's issues and we've said that men's issues are, well, you know, we need to provide resources for women.

00:11:16.500 Because they have all the power, they have all the privilege and not men.

00:11:21.280 We need to provide resources for women because men have had all the power and all the privilege. 1.00

00:11:25.700 And so we don't want to, you know, do things for men because men already have the power.

00:11:32.020 They have a privilege.

00:11:33.000 And that's a complete misunderstanding of of men and masculinity.

00:11:38.480 So just to make it clear how that is a complete misunderstanding.

00:11:43.640 When I started, I've started hundreds of men's groups.

00:11:46.380 I used to be on the board of directors of the National Organization for Women, as you know.

00:11:49.520 And I was, I guess, the world's leading male feminist, if you will, and spoke all around the world on women's issues and and the importance of them.

00:11:57.420 And the as I as I did that, I the National Organization for Women was about to get rid of men. 0.84

00:12:06.440 And they had a big debate about whether they should get rid of men or not and not allowing them to join now. 0.94

00:12:11.720 And so they finally decided that, you know, well, we'll the big problem was that once a month they had consciousness raising groups and the consciousness raising groups.

00:12:22.720 When men got involved with them, the women were inhibited about saying what they really felt for for very obvious reasons.

00:12:29.300 And so they said and, you know, basically the question was, how can we get the men out of women's hair? 0.96

00:12:35.200 And their solution was to ask, say, say, well, let's ask Warren Farrell if he would be willing to form some men's groups at the time that the women's groups are meeting so that he can get the men, you know, in their own separate groups.

00:12:52.880 And I did that.

00:12:53.600 And for a number of months, I sort of since I was doing my doctoral dissertation on the women's movement, you know, I would and all these men attending the now meetings,

00:13:04.600 they were all male feminists. 1.00

00:13:06.560 And so we would, you know, we would all compete to be the biggest jock in the sensitivity group.

00:13:11.600 And so but one day I decided instead of like lecturing to the men about the importance of feminism, I just decided to listen to their life stories.

00:13:22.280 And I asked them the question, what's the biggest hole in your heart?

00:13:26.020 And we went around and for many of the men and then I formed some 300 men's groups.

00:13:31.820 And I found this to be repeated again and again.

00:13:34.780 The biggest hole in their heart was doing something like they wanted to be they were an elementary school teacher or an artist, a writer, an actor, a musician.

00:13:44.820 They were doing something that was very fulfilling to them.

00:13:47.860 But then they had their first child and they realized that that fulfilling job, with a couple of exceptions, did not pay enough to support themselves,

00:13:55.960 their children to buy a new home that would accommodate a larger family in a good school district that would allow their children to have opportunities that they didn't have and allow their wives and them to have a decent home in a decent neighborhood with decent schools.

00:14:10.500 And so in order to do that, I remember one man, he he just he was he was just a sweetheart of a guy and he loved kids.

00:14:19.140 And by all reports, he just got along with them so well and was his passion to be involved with them.

00:14:25.460 And but he realized that, you know, the teachers did not make enough money to be able to do those aspirations that I was just mentioning.

00:14:33.280 So he he to his great regret, gave up teaching.

00:14:38.280 He was the type of person who hated administrative stuff and, you know, you know, petty little squabbles between different parts of the community.

00:14:47.260 But he did it because he felt that he needed to earn more money and work longer and harder hours in order to be to to support his family.

00:14:55.220 And then and then and a number of men gave up a musician gigs, especially because that wasn't earning enough money to support four or five people.

00:15:05.720 And so but then they heard the feminist community saying, well, look at education. 1.00

00:15:12.940 Only a small number of men compared to women are teachers.

00:15:19.120 And and yet the majority of the principals and the superintendents of schools are men.

00:15:25.220 Which goes to show you two things, that men have men, male privilege and men have male power. 1.00

00:15:31.160 And I began to see, wow, these men gave up their passion to do what they needed to do rather than what they wanted to do, not because of male privilege and male power, but because of male obligation and male responsibility.

00:15:44.180 And we were and rather than being appreciated for it, these men were being put down as, you know, you're the principals and superintendents because you have all the power and all the privilege.

00:15:55.580 And I began to see that men were being misunderstood in a very fundamental type of way.

00:16:01.960 And if there was a hashtag men, too, as opposed to a hashtag me, too, only for women, that men would be encouraged to talk about these things and share what their feelings and fears were.

00:16:12.900 But for the most part, you know, women and particularly women who are feminists in their orientation don't understand this about men.

00:16:21.360 And they see men as having male privilege and male power.

00:16:25.080 That's really interesting.

00:16:26.440 I mean, I wrote so much down here as you were talking about this.

00:16:29.820 Power is really interesting.

00:16:31.180 I think power is in the eye of the holder, really, or the person who is subject to that power.

00:16:36.120 So, for example, a woman might believe that a man has power if he's an administrator versus an educator, actually in the classroom is what I mean by that.

00:16:47.040 And men generally might think that women hold the power because they hold the breeding rights. 1.00

00:16:53.100 They're the ones who get to decide who is going to breed and who is not. 0.95

00:16:57.140 And I know that strips it down to its, like, most basic fundamental level.

00:17:02.280 But there's a lot of men.

00:17:04.140 You look at the Meg Tao movement.

00:17:05.520 You look at the Red Pill movement.

00:17:06.960 You look at the Incel movement.

00:17:09.100 And there's a lot of men who believe that women hold all the power because they're the ones who get to select their mates.

00:17:17.060 And so it's interesting when you're talking about power.

00:17:19.700 It's really subjective.

00:17:21.560 Power is not objective.

00:17:22.840 It's subjective based on what your goals and desires are.

00:17:26.640 Well, yes.

00:17:27.740 Let's see.

00:17:28.280 It's sort of – there are different dimensions of this.

00:17:30.820 So clearly the President of the United States has more power over more people than you and I have, right?

00:17:40.020 Or than – and you and I have actually, you know, more influence than most people have.

00:17:45.640 But the – and so there is that type of power.

00:17:49.300 But I define power as having control over one's life.

00:17:54.480 And the way power has typically been defined for men is as feeling obligated to earn money that often someone else spends while they die sooner.

00:18:11.860 And, you know, if I were to go and do an all-women's workshop and say I'm going to teach you to have power, I'm going to teach you to have – to feel obligated to earn money that someone else will spend while you die sooner, the women would laugh. 1.00

00:18:29.720 Can I jump in there on that one real quick?

00:18:31.200 Yes, sure.

00:18:31.820 What I'm hearing you say, and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong, is that men perceive themselves as expendable and so do women.

00:18:42.680 That's what I'm hearing you say.

00:18:44.340 Well, yes.

00:18:44.820 Let's see.

00:18:45.720 Men and the – that is the reality.

00:18:51.160 However, the perceive themselves is a little bit – men don't think of themselves as disposable.

00:18:59.960 The subtitle of the book, The Myth of Male Power that I wrote, is why men are the disposable sex.

00:19:05.620 And I explained that men were disposable in war and disposable in the workplace, meaning that 93% of the deaths at work are by men and a higher percentage of the injuries.

00:19:19.100 And the remnant injuries are almost all men by remnant injuries.

00:19:23.260 I mean a firefighter is far more likely to die at work if he's a male.

00:19:28.800 And yet the remnant injuries after he retires, him dying from black lung disease as a result of being a firefighter, are almost completely by men.

00:19:42.420 And so men don't even look at that.

00:19:44.160 They just accept that.

00:19:45.140 That's them.

00:19:46.460 And women don't look at the fact that these – that men are disposable. 1.00

00:19:51.160 They just – that's so much a part of our, you know, inner being.

00:19:55.080 You know, we – whenever they're – each generation has had its war.

00:20:01.740 And as each generation has had its war, men have been asked to be willing to risk being killed and also to kill.

00:20:10.560 And we know that it's traumatizing – it's obviously traumatizing to be killed, but it's – and it's also traumatizing to kill.

00:20:18.240 And, you know, the PTSD is almost always a result of, you know, seeing a very close friend be killed or, alternatively, having – seeing somebody that you have killed and – or some type of trauma like that.

00:20:33.320 And so the – and so men just accept the fact that, you know, Uncle Joe joined the Marines.

00:20:39.680 His picture is on the – on the mantle.

00:20:42.340 He's our hero.

00:20:43.120 And so we use words like hero and respect for men.

00:20:47.820 They're social bribes for men to do – to be willing to be disposable in each generation's war.

00:20:54.760 However, there's a new sort of crisis that's happened since – in the last 20, 30, 40 years, which is that it used to be men would define it as their purpose to join the war and be disposable.

00:21:07.700 Or, you know, join a profession that earns a lot of money or leaves them disposable at work or they, you know, they climb some economic ladder and they – and they barely have a life.

00:21:19.800 But – and they're disposable in a different type of way.

00:21:22.540 They're disposable as human beings.

00:21:24.600 And they change human beings in for being human doings.

00:21:27.860 They climb to the height of some ladder with – and lose – lose touch with who they are.

00:21:34.660 And so these are things that – that men don't even think about.

00:21:39.040 They just do.

00:21:40.040 And women don't think about men being disposable either. 0.99

00:21:42.860 They just are much more willing to marry somebody who earns a lot of money or is going to be and maybe is a lawyer or a doctor without regard to how many hours per week he works and, you know, that type of thing.

00:22:01.240 And so I think that there's a difference between having what I would call power or not having it and even the trap for many men is they've never thought about that.

00:22:15.080 They've just been human doings, not human beings.

00:22:18.140 What's interesting about a woman who – and I'm speaking in generalities, but a woman who would marry for potential, if that's the term we're going to use, a doctor, a lawyer, et cetera, et cetera. 0.97

00:22:32.560 That's what she maybe even subconsciously is marrying for.

00:22:35.780 But you get 10, 15, 20 years into a marriage and lo and behold, a woman gets exactly what she wants. 1.00

00:22:42.180 She's got a doctor. 0.96

00:22:43.280 She's got an attorney. 0.99

00:22:44.740 She's – all the money is coming into the family and then all of a sudden it's like, well, you're not here for the family.

00:22:51.660 And I think this is something that a lot of guys and gals run into is that a woman marries for that potential. 0.98

00:22:57.320 The guy achieves the potential he was sought after for and then he's ostracized or divorced or separated from the family because he's pursuing the thing that she actually wanted.

00:23:10.580 Yes.

00:23:10.980 And then that brings us back to the have-it-all woman, the woman complaining that she can't be a have-it-all woman whereas men can be have-it-all men. 0.91

00:23:21.000 And so what I say to women about that is that you can be a have-it-all woman. 1.00

00:23:24.940 If you seek out a man who's basically a nurturer connector and you show him and you let him know that this is what you would love, then men like that who raise children, the children do extremely well on average.

00:23:42.240 And the father is happy if he feels respected and not happy if he doesn't.

00:23:50.580 But if she runs that one condition by herself that could I respect a man who is taking care of the children full time, maybe doing something on the side to earn money, but I'd still respect him whether or not that does produce money.

00:24:05.660 And then I can be a have-it-all woman.

00:24:11.000 That is, I can break a glass ceiling, but I will be able to have children that I know are home being raised well and a man that is happy with doing that.

00:24:23.420 Now, many women say to me, well, would a man be willing to do that?

00:24:27.540 Well, and first of all, she has to usually grapple with whether she'd be comfortable with a man doing that.

00:24:33.480 And then-

00:24:34.260 And she has to be honest about it.

00:24:35.620 Because on the surface, she'll say that.

00:24:38.380 She definitely will say that.

00:24:40.180 But deep down, she may not actually feel or act in accordance with that thing she just said.

00:24:45.520 Yes, that's often the case.

00:24:47.520 And some women are pretty conscious of the fact that they, well, I don't think I really would be comfortable marrying a man who is staying home full time. 0.59

00:24:58.180 He's not earning any money is usually what I'll hear from him.

00:25:00.940 And I'll say, well, let's just say that that's the case.

00:25:03.660 Or he may have a desire to earn money but not really end up producing it in reality.

00:25:09.140 And so would you not have respect for him?

00:25:11.900 And many women have to grapple with that. 1.00

00:25:14.260 But if she does grapple with that and does handle that, then she becomes a have-it-all woman. 0.98

00:25:21.800 She has her career.

00:25:23.700 She has her children, well-raised.

00:25:26.100 And what's wonderful about women that is not true for all successful men is that successful women do tend to sort of like, 0.76

00:25:36.300 if their children are having their birthday or a special recital,

00:25:40.020 they will tend, even if they're in CEO-type positions, to make sure that they clear out the space to attend that recital,

00:25:48.480 to attend those special occasions.

00:25:49.960 Men, most, many men will, increasingly men will do that today.

00:25:54.820 But many men sort of feel that their first obligation is to make sure that they, you know,

00:26:00.260 they fly to D.C., even though they live in Utah, and, you know, make sure that they get that account.

00:26:05.740 Because if they don't get that account, they won't get the next account after that.

00:26:08.880 Like, they see the ripple effect of not getting everything there.

00:26:13.320 And so, but in the process, both men and women run into the success-love gap.

00:26:23.520 What I mean is that the qualities it takes to be successful at work are in tension with, T-E-N-S-I-O-N, 1.00

00:26:33.300 in tension with the qualities it takes to be successful in love.

00:26:38.160 And here's what I mean by that.

00:26:39.580 In order to be successful at work, let's say you want to be a great lawyer,

00:26:45.840 when the opposing lawyer is speaking, your job is to formulate in your own mind's eye

00:26:55.280 responses that you can give that lawyer to that lawyer's argument while that lawyer is speaking.

00:27:03.560 And you're being confrontational by design.

00:27:06.040 By design, exactly.

00:27:07.240 And if you don't find anything that you can confront well to distort something he said or she said,

00:27:17.520 so that you can argue with the distorted version of that.

00:27:21.000 So what you're doing is self-listening.

00:27:24.920 If you don't do that, you haven't done well by your client.

00:27:29.620 And if you say to the person speaking, the opposing lawyer, let me see if I'm completely understanding what you're saying.

00:27:38.540 And what I'm hearing you say is this.

00:27:40.220 Is that accurate?

00:27:40.960 Did I distort anything?

00:27:42.260 Did I miss anything?

00:27:43.480 Is there anything else that you'd like to add?

00:27:45.700 Now, these are all the qualities...

00:27:46.940 Like you're a bad lawyer.

00:27:47.900 Yes, in the Role Mate to Soul Mate book behind me, these are all the things I teach people to do in a much more detailed way than that summarizes.

00:27:56.620 But if that lawyer does that, the client he's representing or she's representing fires the lawyer and says,

00:28:05.900 I would.

00:28:06.340 Out of here, man.

00:28:07.640 And so the lawyer has lost his or her job.

00:28:10.580 Now, let's take a less dramatic occupation than lawyer.

00:28:13.540 Let's say you're a CEO and let's say maybe a CEO for Boeing, let's say.

00:28:17.560 And you're meeting with 10 representatives of doormakers for Boeing aircraft.

00:28:26.520 Which is much needed right now.

00:28:28.140 Much needed.

00:28:29.200 Clearly.

00:28:30.680 And so each doormaker is presenting his or her menu for the best next door that will not fall off in flight.

00:28:40.780 And so what is the Boeing CEO is doing?

00:28:45.120 He or she is listening to each representative present his or her plan for the best door.

00:28:55.560 But also thinking about what are the other plans that I've been presented with?

00:28:59.360 How do they compare to this?

00:29:00.820 What's the reputation of this person?

00:29:02.440 What's the history of this person?

00:29:04.120 How would that door be my infrastructure in Japan?

00:29:07.780 How would that work out for them producing that or in China producing this portion of the door?

00:29:12.480 Is that portion of the door being, is that something so new it can't be done?

00:29:18.000 So what is he doing or she doing, the CEO?

00:29:21.040 She or he is self-listening.

00:29:23.060 They're listening to themselves have responses while the other person is talking.

00:29:28.840 So let's say as a result, and that's good for the CEO and it's good for the lawyer.

00:29:33.240 But let's say that lawyer or the CEO comes home from work, female or male, and their wife or their husband, their spouse is talking and or their children are talking.

00:29:45.500 And you're listening for a few seconds, picking up the gist of what they're saying, and then beginning to form in your own mind's eye your response to that or your solution to that.

00:29:55.720 And your children or your wife or your husband do not feel listened to or heard.

00:30:01.280 They just can feel the energy of you self-listening or listening to yourself form a response.

00:30:07.620 And so the qualities it takes to be successful at work are so frequently in tension with the qualities it takes to be successful in love.

00:30:15.120 And so those are things that no one is really working on, and that's part of what the Role Mate to Soulmate book teaches couples to be conscious of and to also know how to not do and to overcome the natural propensity to do that.

00:30:33.720 I mean, I even think about, Warren, like this podcast.

00:30:38.160 Admittedly, I'm self-listening in a lot of ways because that is the role.

00:30:42.400 I'm trying to lead the conversation.

00:30:44.340 I'm trying to steer this in a way that I think is going to be advantageous for the people who are listening.

00:30:49.160 And so, you know, you can see me.

00:30:50.920 I'm furvishly taking notes.

00:30:52.360 But I found in my relationship with my girlfriend now is when I just listen, not self-listen, when I just listen to her without the need to respond or solve her problems, typically my responses might be, oh, I'm sorry.

00:31:08.320 Or that sounds like it was a hard day or that sucks.

00:31:11.440 Or, you know, something where it's not me trying to solve anything has actually been more advantageous than me rushing in to be the CEO of the relationship.

00:31:20.780 And I wrote this down here earlier.

00:31:23.340 Tell me what you think about this.

00:31:24.600 This is something I talked about earlier in the week on one of our previous podcasts.

00:31:28.040 But I said that women speak the language of connection and men speak the language of respect.

00:31:34.020 So when a woman comes to a man to tell him about her day, she wants to be listened to.

00:31:40.360 That's empathy.

00:31:41.500 That's connection.

00:31:42.700 When a man wants to tell his woman about his day, he wants to be respected for the good work and the value that he provided and everything that came with what he contributed to the relationship.

00:31:54.260 Well, here's the trick to that.

00:31:58.020 That's so true that oftentimes, therefore, the man is talking about what he succeeded doing so he can get that respect as opposed to talking about his vulnerability, his hurt, somebody that sort of disconnected from him, something that happened where he failed, something that happened where he's having a problem.

00:32:20.080 And so he oftentimes represses that part of his day so he can get respect as opposed to feel connection.

00:32:30.240 So that's one part of the connection.

00:32:32.860 Can I jump in there real quick?

00:32:34.100 Yes, sure.

00:32:34.500 More on that one.

00:32:35.380 So this is an issue that I've had and anybody who's listened for a long time knows this.

00:32:40.180 And I'm open to being wrong.

00:32:43.060 The idea of vulnerability, you know, and I think we have to define that term because everybody defines it a little bit differently.

00:32:48.380 But I've seen and even been part of situations where a man is vulnerable, like you're saying, and it actually undermines the relationship or at least the perspective that the woman has on the man.

00:33:03.180 Is there a point at which vulnerability is repulsive or off-putting to women that you need to be aware of that as a man?

00:33:14.720 The answer, unfortunately, is yes.

00:33:18.520 And so that's one of the reasons.

00:33:20.820 So almost everything is a dance.

00:33:23.300 And men don't, men aren't vulnerable because when we're vulnerable to men, to women, we feel we'll lose the female's respect.

00:33:31.700 And usually that's the case.

00:33:33.600 We're not vulnerable to other men because we're fearful that if we are, we'll lose their respect as well.

00:33:39.660 So if you're vulnerable to a man and you say, gee, I'm really having a tough time with my marriage right now, I'm a little bit preoccupied, excuse me and forgive me about that.

00:33:50.260 But, you know, I haven't been really my same self.

00:33:52.440 And, you know, I think we may be headed for a divorce.

00:33:55.660 And, you know, she says this and I say this and the kids say this and here's what's happening.

00:34:00.520 And it's like, whoa, wait a minute, the other man is saying to himself in his mind's eye, if, you know, I'm very happy to be listening to you for the first 30 seconds.

00:34:09.840 But after that, you know, if you continue to go on, I'm going to be not only I'm going to be losing some respect for you, but I'm also if something comes up about, you know, should, you know, should we promote Ryan or should we promote Kevin?

00:34:24.440 And maybe we should promote Kevin.

00:34:26.940 Ryan's not in such a good space right now.

00:34:28.940 And so then Ryan is feeling a loss of respect for the people that he's shared this vulnerability with.

00:34:35.880 So and so there's so so here.

00:34:39.460 So here's men's takeaway.

00:34:41.560 If I'm vulnerable to a woman, I lose respect. 1.00

00:34:45.420 If I'm vulnerable to a man, I lose respect.

00:34:49.820 To whom can I be vulnerable?

00:34:52.800 No one.

00:34:54.440 And men are very bottom line.

00:34:56.640 And so when we realize that we can't be vulnerable to anyone, we don't oftentimes even allow ourselves to acknowledge our own vulnerability.

00:35:05.980 Sometimes it comes out as anger.

00:35:09.040 And almost always anger is vulnerability's mask.

00:35:14.460 You find anybody who's angry.

00:35:18.660 And instead of if you're angry and, you know, you're getting a divorce and you're angry during the divorce and one of you explodes, just go.

00:35:25.660 Instead of hearing the word, instead of hearing anger and responding with anger.

00:35:29.940 Whenever you hear anger, hear the word, hear vulnerability, and you'll be more tempted to respond with empathy.

00:35:39.020 And so so so so this is the challenge there.

00:35:42.540 Now, you said something about men respect women connection.

00:35:46.060 I dealt with the respect part.

00:35:47.140 Let me deal with the connection part of the part of women. 1.00

00:35:51.460 What percentage of your audience is female?

00:35:55.760 10 to 15 percent, roughly, depending on which demographic you're looking at or which platform you're looking at.

00:36:02.260 Got you.

00:36:03.460 Whether you're a woman or a man listening to this, this is really crucial to understand.

00:36:08.740 When a woman is sharing something at work, what she does, if you listen for a bit and then you come up and you're working on solutions, here's what is really happening for you.

00:36:26.080 When a woman is bleeding, if we love her, our natural protector instinct responds with, I have one obligation of who I love is bleeding.

00:36:40.660 I need to find the band-aid that will stop the bleeding.

00:36:44.020 I need to save her.

00:36:45.240 And so therefore, when she is talking, our desire is to self-listen to solutions that we can provide to take away her bleeding, to take away her pain.

00:36:59.800 But the real solution, and so here is what is happening for the woman.

00:37:04.200 When we provide the solution, after a few minutes, we interrupt her need to just process and complete talking about that.

00:37:16.860 But we also, by providing a solution in a few seconds, we are basically saying, don't worry, honey.

00:37:26.180 I can provide, I can figure out a solution in a few seconds to what you couldn't figure out in a lifetime.

00:37:35.320 Now, that doesn't make her feel very, that's very demeaning, very condescending, very insulting.

00:37:41.120 She doesn't articulate it that way and you didn't intend it that way, but that's the way it feels to her.

00:37:47.540 And so when I'm working with CEOs or top executives in particular who are much more vulnerable to getting that quick solution out, like we talked about a minute ago,

00:37:57.940 I say there is a solution when the woman you love is complaining, listening, and that is to be there for her.

00:38:08.500 Listen there.

00:38:09.780 Listen with a blank mind.

00:38:11.600 Listen with an empathy in your eyes, an empathy in your heart.

00:38:14.880 And share with her when she's finished, just respond to her by just giving space, seeing, and oftentimes when you give space,

00:38:27.080 she'll come up with another dimension of what was bothering her because she now sees that she's being listened to.

00:38:34.180 And then when she says to you something like, so what do you think?

00:38:39.000 The best answer is, and this is not an answer, this is where I sometimes fall down.

00:38:43.160 And when my wife suggests, you know, do you have a thought?

00:38:46.520 I usually bring up the solution that I think, but I don't do it until she asks for it.

00:38:51.320 But when I'm at my best, even when she does ask for my thoughts or my solutions, I say, I do have some thoughts, but what are your thoughts?

00:39:02.220 What would you do?

00:39:02.880 And four out of five times, I'd say, she comes up with either as good, a better solution, or alternatively, something that I would have said anyway.

00:39:12.880 But she feels a lot better when she invents it, when she comes up with it.

00:39:17.580 She feels better about herself.

00:39:19.240 So if you want, so the solution to listening to a woman who's complaining about the challenges she's had during her day, 0.95

00:39:27.980 the solution is listening followed by listening integrated with empathy.

00:39:35.460 That's all.

00:39:37.060 That's the solution.

00:39:38.640 It's not solving the problem.

00:39:40.120 It's like solving for X.

00:39:43.420 And you don't know what X is, but in this case, X is listening and empathy.

00:39:48.440 Guys want to solve the problem.

00:39:50.400 You are solving the problem by listening and being empathetic.

00:39:53.860 That's what I'm hearing you say.

00:39:55.100 Exactly.

00:39:55.660 That is the solution.

00:39:58.940 Man, I'm going to step away from the conversation briefly.

00:40:01.220 I'll get back to it.

00:40:01.920 I promise you.

00:40:03.120 But I wanted to share something with you.

00:40:05.620 And I've had this thought is that most men pay lip service and tell everyone how important it is for us to band together.

00:40:13.420 But in reality and practicality, how often does it actually happen?

00:40:17.580 It's far less than we ought to have to admit.

00:40:20.960 But banding together as men is one of the most powerful ways to create meaningful change in our own lives and in the lives of those we care about. 0.99

00:40:28.160 I don't want to blow smoke up your arse or anything like that. 0.98

00:40:31.760 I actually want to live by what I preach. 0.98

00:40:34.940 And that's why I've banded with Larry Hagner, Connor Beaton, and Matt Boudreau to bring you an event and experience.

00:40:42.240 And unlike any other in the spring of 2025, it's called The Forge, A Gathering of Men.

00:40:47.940 And when you register, you're going to join us and hundreds of other men for learning, leaning into each other, camaraderie, and the accountability required to realize our full potential as men.

00:40:58.720 Now, we only have 200 spots, and they are filling up very, very quickly, so I would highly suggest that you get on this quick.

00:41:06.460 You can go to themensforge.com and get signed up.

00:41:10.340 This event will take place just outside of St. Louis on May 1st through the 4th, 2025, so that's going to be coming up fairly quickly.

00:41:18.000 Again, themensforge.com.

00:41:20.740 I hope to see you there, and I can speak for Larry, Connor, and Matt on this one.

00:41:24.240 They would love to have you there as well.

00:41:25.820 Again, themensforge.com.

00:41:27.860 Sign up right after this conversation.

00:41:29.740 For now, let's get back to it with Dr. Farrell.

00:41:33.360 This is like, I wrote this down.

00:41:35.200 This is like sex or gender chess is how I've referred to it as.

00:41:40.560 You know, it's when you're playing chess, you're making moves, you're trying to trap pieces, you're trying to lure and bait them in.

00:41:49.700 And I'm not saying we need to manipulate in a negative way, but I'm saying you're looking five, six, ten moves down the road.

00:41:57.080 And if you go in and solve a problem like you think you should, you just set yourself up.

00:42:02.620 You're going to be checkmated before you know it.

00:42:06.080 But if you're thinking about it ahead of time, like she doesn't need me to solve the problem the way I want to solve the problem.

00:42:11.720 She needs me just to listen and be empathetic.

00:42:16.060 I mean, the best phrases are, oh, I'm sorry. 0.98

00:42:19.040 Oh, that sucks.

00:42:20.060 I would feel the same way you do right now if I was in that situation. 0.71

00:42:23.620 Those phrases have been helpful for me to be empathetic when I just want to solve the problem.

00:42:27.960 Wow.

00:42:28.480 I don't know how you handle that.

00:42:29.960 That's amazing.

00:42:31.020 Oh, I'm so sorry.

00:42:32.340 You know, those types of things.

00:42:33.120 And then also, you know, your eye contact and just is so important, too.

00:42:38.240 It's, you know, we speak not just through our words, but through our eyes as well.

00:42:42.640 Hmm.

00:42:43.880 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:42:44.820 I know we kind of jumped the gun a little bit because I've always enjoyed our conversations.

00:42:49.800 But you've got a new book called Rolemate to Soulmate.

00:42:52.500 I think it would help if you identified what those terms mean.

00:42:56.140 Because when I saw soulmate, immediately, admittedly, I had a negative connotation with it.

00:43:01.420 Like, soulmate, to me, almost makes it feel as if, you know, there's one person that I'm divinely connected to.

00:43:08.380 And that's the person I just need to find out of the 8 billion people on the planet.

00:43:13.080 And I don't believe that.

00:43:14.160 I'm not sure you believe that.

00:43:15.520 So I'd like you to define those terms for me, if you would.

00:43:18.540 Sure.

00:43:19.660 First, when people first fall in love, they often even, you know, when the first time they have sex together, if there's a chemical attraction, they often, like, feel like they're soulmates.

00:43:29.680 And, of course, they're not a soulmate with somebody they don't even know yet.

00:43:34.060 But, you know, eventually, as their relationship moves on, they start playing roles.

00:43:39.280 Those roles may be traditional, nontraditional, whatever.

00:43:42.180 They each carve out what they tend to do in a relationship.

00:43:45.500 And what's also usually happening is that when they begin to start feeling that there's something the other person does that isn't like it, they would like to do it, they start maybe giving a suggestion for an improvement.

00:43:59.760 The person hearing that suggestion for an improvement often considers it a criticism.

00:44:04.680 And the biologically, I explain in Role Mate to Soul Mate, that the biologically natural response to being criticized is to be defensive.

00:44:16.960 Now, let me explain biologically natural.

00:44:21.700 Historically speaking, when we heard a criticism, it was a potential enemy.

00:44:26.300 So it was functional to get up our defenses so we wouldn't be killed by the enemy or alternatively to kill the enemy before the enemy killed us.

00:44:36.580 And so that was functional for survival.

00:44:39.700 It's just dysfunctional for love.

00:44:42.280 And yet, almost everybody who gets into a relationship, when they begin to feel criticized the first time or two, because there's so much love there and so much heart open, we're oftentimes open to a criticism or two.

00:44:58.120 But as a relationship goes on, and especially when you start living together, and especially once you have children, there are so many complexities to raising children and even to living together, particularly if one person moves into the home of another person that's set up for a series of challenges and everyone feels criticized a great deal.

00:45:20.580 And so the response so often to the criticism is to become defensive, so the person sharing that, what they consider a concern, not a criticism, is to start to walk on eggshells.

00:45:35.040 Because the last time I brought up something like this to Ryan or to Joe or Jane, she or he responded defensively, so I'm going to be careful about just doing it at the right moment, the right time, the right way, and everything else.

00:45:49.680 And you sort of feel like you're both walking on eggshells in a relationship pretty soon.

00:45:54.820 If you don't have a venting outlet, women usually begin to talk to other women, men drink, or just come home later, or do something along those lines, or keep the feelings to themselves for the reasons we mentioned before.

00:46:07.840 And so what I saw this being true, for 30 years, I've been doing couples workshops called Role Mate to Soul Mate.

00:46:20.600 And I advised at the beginning, you know, that when you're criticized to really be aware of not being defensive, everybody in the workshop agreed.

00:46:31.760 And then, but then I started doing follow-up phone calls to the people who attended the workshop.

00:46:38.840 There were free and group phone calls.

00:46:40.720 And I said, you know, what worked, what didn't work?

00:46:43.020 And almost invariably a very high percentage of people say, well, that, you know, the moment that the criticism appeared, the wisdom disappeared.

00:46:50.820 You know, I got the wisdom in the workshop taught not to be defensive when I was criticized.

00:46:57.400 I registered that wisdom.

00:46:59.880 The criticism was far more powerful than the wisdom.

00:47:03.320 And bam, I went right back to being defensive again.

00:47:08.020 And so I asked myself, something that's always intrigued me in life is, I'm fascinated with things that are fairly universal problems.

00:47:19.020 And then I sort of make an effort to look at whether I have a solution to a fairly universal problem.

00:47:25.060 99% of the time, I don't.

00:47:27.600 Or somebody else has a much better one or faster or whatever.

00:47:32.060 So, but in this case, I felt I could develop a solution.

00:47:38.020 But I had a really tough job on my hands, which is if responding to criticism defensively is biologically natural, I'm going to have to teach somebody how to make an evolutionary shift when they hear criticism.

00:47:54.980 And so I, long story short, I experimented with what worked and didn't work and got feedback from the follow-up phone calls.

00:48:06.000 I saw that I needed to set aside a time during the week that I ended up calling a caring and sharing practice or a caring and sharing time that lasted about two hours in which before a person heard only one criticism or concern of their partner, they did a number of things.

00:48:30.520 First, they learned to appreciate their partner at five levels of specificity.

00:48:38.880 Then it would be followed by altering their natural biological state so that they altered their natural defensiveness by sharing six mindsets.

00:48:52.520 So, the person about to share a concern or criticism sees that they're preparing themselves to be safe and experience the criticism not as something to be defensive, but rather as an opportunity to be more deeply loved.

00:49:19.540 So, I'll take a little sip of tea here and explain the appreciations more and then also how I do the mindset, which I think are really fun.

00:49:35.480 While you're taking that sip, one thing that I wrote down here, and this is something I've learned and often said is, well, number one, not all who criticize you are your enemies and not all who praise you are your allies.

00:49:48.160 That's important to know.

00:50:18.140 To be appreciated, to be appreciated, to build a deeper connection, to move the family forward, to raise kids together, to have a beautiful life, however that looks like to them. 0.99

00:50:26.540 I found that by just taking a pause and a step back and asking myself, what is my goal in this conversation keeps me from sticking my dumb foot in my dumb mouth, which I happen to do quite often. 0.99

00:50:40.060 Yes. 1.00

00:50:40.620 Yes.

00:50:41.200 Well, yes, that's absolutely wonderful.

00:50:43.500 And most everybody would agree with that.

00:50:46.200 The challenge is that for most people, too often, as you were just implying, at the moment of the criticism, the criticism stings so much.

00:50:57.360 And ironically, the more, well, not ironically, but sort of understandably, the more deeply you love somebody, the more it stings, the more it hurts.

00:51:05.840 Yeah, because it counts.

00:51:06.800 You care about it more.

00:51:07.860 The depth of love makes you vulnerable.

00:51:09.300 And so the first thing that I have couples do is to, before they share their one concern, and they're only allowed to share one concern per week, and I explain what to do the rest of the week in terms of creating a conflict-free zone.

00:51:25.680 But before they share that one concern, I have them share two appreciations at five levels of specificity.

00:51:36.700 So let's say you say to your, let's say it's just past Thanksgiving, and you say, I just want you to know I really love the way you cook.

00:51:49.840 So that would be an appreciation, but that's at one level of specificity, and, you know, she's probably heard that a dozen times before.

00:51:58.960 But level of specificity number two is, I really love the way that the skin on that turkey came out so crisp.

00:52:07.840 And how did you manage to do that?

00:52:10.140 You seem to do that every time.

00:52:12.160 So now you're becoming more specific, and with that specificity, you're expressing curiosity, which is showing respect.

00:52:18.880 How did you manage to do that?

00:52:21.480 You seem to do it every time.

00:52:24.020 And then also, I noticed that the dressing is so nice and moist.

00:52:28.440 I love moist dressing rather than this dry dressing.

00:52:31.360 How do you manage to both get the dressing moist and the skin crisp at the same time?

00:52:36.480 You'd think that the crispness of the skin might make the dressing dry out.

00:52:40.740 And then the spices are so great.

00:52:42.800 And so rather than just saying spicing is great, you try to identify, even if you don't get it right, what those spices are so that the person feels seen.

00:52:53.780 So was that parsley or sage or rosemary or thyme or some other Simon and Garfunkel spice?

00:53:00.760 And so now the person being appreciated is feeling not just appreciated in general, but at such a specific level and with curiosity that shows respect for how they have done something so well.

00:53:23.220 Can I jump in on that one real quick?

00:53:24.600 Rick, how do you keep that from being disingenuous?

00:53:29.400 Because I can agree with you on the specificity.

00:53:34.000 You say it easier than I can say it.

00:53:36.260 You know, for example, I might compliment my girlfriend and say she looks good.

00:53:39.700 But the other day, she was wearing a pair of shorts that were just the right length with frills.

00:53:44.180 And her legs looked phenomenal.

00:53:45.820 And that's what I said.

00:53:46.540 I'm like, those shorts look amazing.

00:53:49.400 Your legs look incredible.

00:53:50.740 So that specificity, I think, makes it more meaningful because it's not just a generic, I'm supposed to say you look good.

00:53:58.220 I actually mean it.

00:53:59.960 But how do you keep it from coming across as disingenuous?

00:54:05.200 Because, for example, the turkey scenario, if I ever asked that to somebody, they'd be like, that doesn't even sound like you.

00:54:12.900 And it sounds like you're gaming or manipulating, if that makes sense.

00:54:17.320 Yes.

00:54:17.580 Well, I mean, a lot depends on your tone of voice.

00:54:20.680 And also, when you first begin to do any new behavior, there's going to be an artificiality to it.

00:54:29.280 But as you practice a behavior, it becomes much more natural to you.

00:54:35.440 So for me, I practice that behavior a lot.

00:54:38.600 And it no longer comes across as sort of weird because it's a part of me now.

00:54:44.100 And so all of these things.

00:54:47.120 So one of the things that is true in the Rolemate to Soulmate book and also the workshop and the online course that goes with it is that since handling personal criticism without becoming defensive is biologically unnatural, that every single thing that I teach is unnatural at the beginning.

00:55:09.500 And it's not only and it's so it will maybe at first seem like it's you're working at it.

00:55:16.640 And the reason it seems like you're working at it is because you are working at it.

00:55:21.520 It's the I used to call the subtitle of Rolemate to Soulmate in the workshop form.

00:55:28.040 I still do the art and discipline of love.

00:55:30.820 And people got the discipline of love and the answer is yes.

00:55:36.100 If you are naturally defensive in response to criticism, becoming not defensive requires both a method and a process that I teach, but it also requires a discipline to do something that's unnatural repeatedly just because it works.

00:55:57.260 And so, you know.

00:55:58.460 You get better at the things you practice essentially.

00:56:00.820 Yes, exactly.

00:56:01.600 And when you practice them, the wonderful thing is that your neurons can start connecting differently and you and you and something that you practice again and again becomes natural after a while.

00:56:14.820 Well, I mean, I imagine you're also going to get feedback when you're specific.

00:56:18.780 She's going to respond more favorably, which reinforces the idea that maybe you're on the right path here.

00:56:24.980 There are very, very few people who have something seen about them that is very specific that they don't like.

00:56:37.140 Like, you know, your beard is really nice and trim.

00:56:41.500 The last time I did a podcast with you two years ago, if I'm remembering your beard, the beard was much longer.

00:56:51.200 And it looked good both ways, but actually I like it even better now that it's trim.

00:56:55.660 You know, so and, you know, and you have a much more informal feel to you, but there is a power to the type of blue shirt that you're wearing now that comes across very well.

00:57:07.580 And it distinguishes itself from the background and the background blends in really nicely with your hair.

00:57:15.740 And so it really creates a nice overall combination.

00:57:18.960 Now that's boom, boom, boom.

00:57:20.400 And it's, you know, but that specific and see, I'm not just saying to you, oh, you're looking good today.

00:57:25.780 You know, and so, um, and.

00:57:27.780 And I can tell you the way you're saying, even that, even just in that, I'm like, that feels good to hear those things.

00:57:33.180 So naturally we're going to respond favorably.

00:57:35.740 Yes, to them.

00:57:37.060 And so, so it's so helpful.

00:57:39.060 So this caring and sharing practice, I have couples do once a week.

00:57:43.360 I have every couple put a couple of weeks ahead of time on the calendar when their caring and sharing practice will be.

00:57:51.540 It's usually on Sunday for most people because it's a bit more of a relaxed day.

00:57:55.380 Make, if you have children, making sure that you let the children know this is time that mom and dad are going to be spending talking with each other about trying to solve problems and work with each other and appreciate each other.

00:58:05.540 And eventually you teach the children how to do this process also.

00:58:08.340 So, um, but, um, this is, this is mom and dad time and you make sure that you have a situation set up so that you have that privacy during that time.

00:58:15.660 And so, um, you then, um, share two appreciations and then you, because, because it's biologically natural to be defensive, you have to do something that's biologically unnatural to experience criticism from someone you love as something that you associate with an opportunity to be more deeply loved rather than criticize and angry and defensive.

00:58:45.100 So, so, so I asked people to, to, to alter their natural state, um, by sharing out loud six mindsets that each bring them into a deeper and deeper way of being able to hear criticism without becoming defensive.

00:59:02.460 So, for example, the first mindset might be what I call the love guarantee and the love guarantee is saying something like the following.

00:59:11.320 So, if I provide a safe environment for what you want to say, even if I 100% disagree with it, even if you're exaggerating, in my opinion, even if you're shouting at me or sarcastic, if I just provide a safe environment for that, no matter what the tone of voice, et cetera, you'll feel more secure with me.

00:59:36.060 Less like, less like you have to walk on eggshells, more like you feel, um, that I love you, um, and you'll feel more loved by me, and therefore you'll feel more love for me.

00:59:50.420 So, so now I'm having the person about to hear this, say this out loud.

00:59:57.220 So, the person about to give the criticism knows that every time she or he says something that could be argued with, that they're not seeing their partner, um, start to form self-listen or form a response to that.

01:00:13.480 They're seeing their partner become more and more in a way pleased that they're exaggerating, lying, or shouting because, um, they, um, because, uh, they, uh, they, they're feeling more secure.

01:00:29.700 Um, and so, um, then ironically, therefore, there's no need to shout, no need to lie, no need to exaggerate because you know you're going to be heard.

01:00:40.560 Lying, shouting, exaggerating are usually things that are ways of, or, or nagging are usually statements about we don't, have not felt heard, and so therefore we have to exaggerate, we have to lie, um, we have to repeat, we have to nag in order to get heard.

01:00:58.180 Hmm. Um, and so.

01:00:59.760 That's interesting. I think about that, you know, the, the common example would be, you know, a wife asking her husband to, you know, work on the, the garden boxes and she has to ask him, you know, every week for, you know, 16 weeks before he finally does it.

01:01:17.160 Yeah.

01:01:17.400 She's not nagging so much, if I'm understanding you correctly, because she needs the garden boxes, although she might, she's nagging because she doesn't feel heard, is what you're saying.

01:01:28.200 Heard about, about that issue. Yes.

01:01:30.420 And like, it's not important to the husband, but it's important to her, but she's not feeling like she's, her priorities are the husband's priorities.

01:01:38.720 Yes. Yes. So that he's not at least adapting somewhat or responding, you know, that, um, I don't do the garden boxes, you know, eventually responding when he has his turn to talk.

01:01:48.020 So the most important thing is when that person's talking about, you know, doing the garden boxes, oftentimes they're feeling that the energy that's coming from the person listening to them is, you know, why I can't do it or how much she's nagging.

01:02:02.280 Or, you know, um, it's, it's a sort of defensive, non-receptive response as opposed to just like, um, really feeling that, okay, so what I hear you saying is that the garden boxes, you'd like the garden boxes done.

01:02:17.400 Because, you know, when you look out of the garden boxes, you really see a type of beauty and it gives you a type of peace and you've tried to do this yourself, but, you know, um, uh, but Ryan, you know, I know you do this better and more naturally than I do.

01:02:29.700 And so I really would love it if you could, if you could, if you could do that.

01:02:32.920 And so your first job is just to hear this and just to see that and let her know that you're hearing, um, that, that, that you're hearing this, you, you let her know what you've heard her say.

01:02:46.780 And then you say, did, did I distort anything?

01:02:49.060 And she says, well, yeah, I think you distorted this.

01:02:52.080 And so then you don't argue with the distortion.

01:02:54.660 You, um, keep working at it until she says, no, nothing was distorted.

01:02:58.860 And then you ask if anything is missed.

01:03:00.980 And, um, and then, uh, she says something that you did miss something.

01:03:05.480 You don't say, no, I think I included that.

01:03:07.300 You just, you work at it until she feels, uh, that there's nothing, um, missed.

01:03:12.920 And then, uh, if you, then you invite her to add something new, if she wishes to add something that maybe she felt like she forgot or didn't feel safe to add at the beginning.

01:03:22.000 Now, I say she, but, you know, this, this, this issue is exactly the same in same-sex couples as it is with, um, uh, with, um, uh, heterosexual couples.

01:03:33.320 Um, nobody in straight gay relations or gay relationships, um, no parent, no child.

01:03:41.560 It's the same with parents, parents and children.

01:03:43.860 Uh, the children don't feel heard.

01:03:45.940 The parents don't feel heard.

01:03:47.000 So this, this method works when I say somebody is a couple, I mean, any two people who have a relationship where there's love, uh, that feel that they oftentimes don't feel heard by the other person.

01:03:57.800 Um, and we'd like to hear them more.

01:04:00.460 I imagine generally this is, goes over initially better with a woman than a man just because of the nature of a woman wanting to work. 0.99

01:04:10.980 Is that wrong?

01:04:12.240 Yes, that's correct.

01:04:12.980 That's, that is for different reasons, men and women, um, women are more likely to say what, um, they want in a relationship and not feel heard.

01:04:27.240 Men are more likely to repress it because the few times they have said something, um, that she's disconnected from him sexually.

01:04:35.160 Um, she's disconnected with him emotion from him emotionally, and he promises himself that he will not, um, complain.

01:04:43.220 He just keeps it to himself.

01:04:44.580 So his response, the deeper long-term destructive response is sometimes he either goes out drinking or stays, you know, um, uh, goes golfing or does something that gets him away from the tension.

01:04:57.000 Um, or alternatively, um, he keeps it to himself, keeps it to himself and, you know, some, something comes up that's relatively small and bam, it comes out as a volcano, um, of anger.

01:05:08.360 And, uh, I only ask because I, I imagine, you know, when, like if a woman were to bring this to the table of this, you know, this concentrated time to be able to discuss these generally, I think a man would more easily say or feel that this is a silly exercise. 0.85

01:05:25.820 But since we're talking to men and every single person listening to this podcast wants to improve their relationship, they would not be listening if that weren't the case.

01:05:37.040 Are there situations in which women feel threatened or feel it silly or shut down and are not receptive to these changes that a man might try to implement in his relationship?

01:05:51.360 Yes. First of all, you want to be a woman's hero. You suggest let's read rolemate to soulmate and then watch the online course and do, and do this process together.

01:06:01.920 Now this is going to end up benefiting you as much as it will her, but she'll be so most women will be so shocked that you as a man.

01:06:10.640 Yes, this, this, this, and your, your, your points, so to speak, your reason, the respect for you, the, will go up just for making the suggestion.

01:06:21.360 Um, and the, and what it ends up doing is it's definitely, um, it benefits both people in the relationship to feel that they aren't walking on eggshells.

01:06:33.120 And that is, um, and men and women do that in different ways for different reasons, men and, men and, and gay relationships.

01:06:40.340 Um, it's, there's, I have never experienced a gay couple that doesn't have the same problems basically of not feeling heard and, and so on.

01:06:50.040 I'll show you, share one other, um, mindset with you, which is kind of fun, uh, that, that I have people, um, alter their, for their natural biological selves.

01:06:59.820 Um, I have every couple, uh, sit, um, back to back, um, and, uh, write in a piece of paper, um, the answer to the following question.

01:07:09.600 Um, make believe your partner's is your loved one is about to be killed in either, maybe let's say drowning or in a car accident.

01:07:17.820 Um, and you know, with a hundred percent certainty that you can save her or his life, um, but you know, you sense in that tenth of a second that you have about a 50% chance of losing your own life in the process.

01:07:31.840 Would you, and then they have three options.

01:07:36.080 Would you do it?

01:07:37.240 Yes.

01:07:38.580 No.

01:07:39.760 Uncertain.

01:07:40.200 Now that is just to repeat that you're, you, you have a hundred percent that your partner is going to have a hundred percent chance of dying unless you interfere.

01:07:49.840 But if you interfere, you'll have a hundred percent chance of saving their life, but you'll have a 50% chance of losing your own life.

01:07:57.480 Would you do it?

01:07:58.380 Yes.

01:07:58.640 No.

01:07:58.940 Uncertain.

01:07:59.380 Then have everybody wrinkle up their piece of paper into a tight ball.

01:08:04.160 And, and then the men read out, uh, the other men's and the women's read out the women's, uh, they never see each other's, um, answer.

01:08:11.980 About 90% of the men say that they would be willing to risk their lives at the 50% level, uh, for a hundred percent chance.

01:08:20.440 Yes.

01:08:20.860 Of saving.

01:08:21.460 I thought I would think it'd be a hundred percent.

01:08:23.860 No, not a hundred percent.

01:08:24.880 Remember about a quarter of the people in the workshop are considering divorcing.

01:08:29.160 Some of them have even filed for divorce.

01:08:31.480 So I was going to say, I would say a hundred, if I had to guess a hundred percent men and somewhere around 60 to 75% for women, that would be my guess.

01:08:39.460 Right.

01:08:39.980 Right.

01:08:40.520 It's, it's 90.

01:08:41.680 Oh, but, uh, the one thing I ask is, I say is that children make believe children are not a factor.

01:08:46.840 Okay.

01:08:47.920 So, okay.

01:08:48.740 So it's a, it turns out usually that it's about 90% of the men and about 80% of the women, a little bit more, sometimes more, sometimes less than in both cases.

01:08:57.880 So it's enough that, uh, so then, uh, the first, the second, the first mindset that I have them do is to, um, say, well, if I'm willing to risk my life dying for you, I guess the least I can do is listen to you.

01:09:14.120 Um, and it's like, it puts listening to your partner, even if you wouldn't be willing to die, but maybe just lose an arm or a leg, or you'd have to give up your home or, you know, give up your favorite car.

01:09:29.420 Um, you could, you know, do with that level.

01:09:31.940 But if, if I'm willing to, you know, give you my car rather than have you be killed, um, would you be willing, you know, it's a lot easier to give you my, um, um, to, uh, if I'm willing to give you my car, the least I can do is listen to you.

01:09:45.380 So.

01:09:45.740 I mean, it depends on what kind of car we're talking about here.

01:09:47.880 Right.

01:09:51.560 If it's, that's an interesting, it's a little bit of a setup, but it also is a way to frame that listening.

01:09:59.100 It's not really that big of a sacrifice in, in the grand scheme of things.

01:10:04.240 Exactly.

01:10:05.000 And, and, and more powerfully, when you see how much it means to each person to feel seen and heard.

01:10:14.980 And when you begin to, there's a chapter in the book on how to create family dinner nights without creating family dinner nightmares.

01:10:22.200 Once you master this with your partner, then I teach you how to master this, teach your children how to do this as well.

01:10:30.020 When you, when your children know how to do this for their brother and their sister and for you, um, they, um, they, you've given them probably the greatest gift you could give a child.

01:10:41.120 Um, aside from your overall love and attention, um, and that is the ability to not only have the skills to hear everybody else effectively, but also, um, to, uh, to empathize with everybody else.

01:10:58.720 I teach, um, in that chapter on how to do a family dinner night without doing a family dinner nightmare.

01:11:04.800 I teach parents how not just to empathize with children, but also to require the children to empathize with the parents and their perspectives.

01:11:16.520 And, um, and the, because oftentimes parents that are very empathetic, but don't require the children to also be empathetic, do not create empathetic children.

01:11:27.800 And they create self-centered children that are always used to being empathized with and never required to do empathy for, um, and so they're always the beneficiary of not the, not the, the gifter or whatever term you want to use.

01:11:41.540 Yes. And I heard this initially from teachers that were shocked that on parent teacher night, some of the really empathetic kids in the class had teacher, uh, had parents that were required a lot of them, including to be heard by them.

01:11:56.140 Um, and the, and the, and conversely that children that were, you know, very self-centered often had very empathetic parents that the teacher loved them on, on, on teacher parent night.

01:12:07.100 Um, but it was, and then begin to piece that together that, that, you know, that one way empathy does not beget empathy.

01:12:14.400 One way empathy begets self-centeredness.

01:12:18.420 So interesting.

01:12:19.980 Well, Dr. Farah, we've talked about a lot.

01:12:22.620 We've covered so much and we might need to do a round two.

01:12:26.140 Admittedly, I haven't read the book yet.

01:12:27.700 It's on its way here.

01:12:28.680 So I'm very excited to dig in.

01:12:30.260 I know enough about it to be dangerous and ask some decent questions, but I'm actually really, really excited to dig into this for my own personal, uh, romantic relationship.

01:12:39.760 And also for the relationship I have with my kids.

01:12:41.980 And you also make the point, and I saw this, that this doesn't just apply to romantic relationships, but platonic relationships, professional relationships.

01:12:51.220 So I'm very excited to dig into this book.

01:12:54.220 Very good.

01:12:54.780 If we do a second show.

01:12:55.980 Yeah.

01:12:56.160 Let's do, let's take that both deeper on what we were talking about.

01:12:59.940 The, that caring and sharing time was only one of 23, uh, what I call love enhancements, all of which are unnatural, but all of which would really work.

01:13:08.780 Um, one of them is called the conflict free zone, but then another is that once I teach people, couples have to do this with each other, I teach them how to do this with, um, family members that they love, but have political disagreements with, um, so to, to turn civil war into civil dialogue and, um, a whole series of things like that.

01:13:27.420 So I'd be very happy to, to dig into those things with you again.

01:13:30.960 You also talk about, um, I took some notes earlier today.

01:13:34.320 Let me see if I can find this here.

01:13:36.380 I think you call them love is, oh, it's the four depletors of love, which is criticisms.

01:13:41.940 We talked a little bit about that.

01:13:43.620 Complaining, complacency, and controlling.

01:13:45.900 So I'm excited to get into that too.

01:13:48.040 Absolutely.

01:13:49.360 Well, why don't you tell guys where to connect with you and obviously to pick up a copy of the book so they know where to go.

01:13:53.900 No, unfortunately, the role made to soulmate is, um, um, have on 30% discount right now on Amazon.

01:14:00.580 So that's the easy way to do it.

01:14:02.640 However, I'm going to do something that you probably never heard an author say before.

01:14:06.060 Um, the book itself is not as important as also doing with the book, um, and online, the online couples course.

01:14:16.580 And that's so important.

01:14:17.660 I've made it practically free.

01:14:19.300 When you get the book, you'll have a QR code, go to the course, do that course.

01:14:23.880 With the person you love, the course, the online course will take you through all the practices.

01:14:29.740 This, this book is about practices, um, that you and your partner will do that will really deepen your love.

01:14:38.180 Um, and so reading it is very useful and it's broader and deeper than I can go in the online couples course.

01:14:46.340 But, um, as I was saying before, um, when criticism appears, wisdom disappears.

01:14:52.200 And when you only read something, when you don't practice it, um, it'll disappear a lot more quickly.

01:14:57.740 You really have to retrain your mind to do things that are biologically unnatural, but, but, uh, emotionally extremely functional.

01:15:06.900 Um, you know, um, you know, we, we weren't, we weren't trained to hear our enemy and lawyers weren't trained to listen carefully to the, um, uh, to the opposing attorney.

01:15:17.760 So it really does require practice.

01:15:19.820 You know, what's interesting about this is I was listening to a clip from Jordan Peterson, who I know is a friend of yours.

01:15:26.240 And I think you've been on his podcast at least once that I know of three times and three times.

01:15:31.540 Is that right?

01:15:31.940 Is that what you said?

01:15:32.400 Three times.

01:15:33.080 Yeah.

01:15:33.280 Uh, he had said something in this clip that I heard just a day or two ago, and it coincides almost perfectly with what you're saying.

01:15:40.400 He said that it's very important that couples carve out at least 90 minutes a week for specific discussion around relationships.

01:15:49.520 And you're saying two hours correlates very closely to sort of have two well-versed, well-researched men that I highly respect talking about the same thing gives it even more weight.

01:16:01.300 And I would also suggest too, if you're listening to this podcast and you feel intimidated about bringing this book to the table or the online course that you offer in addition to the book, just have your partner listen to this podcast because that might be enough for them to say, okay, maybe I am interested in doing the book and maybe I am interested in doing the course.

01:16:21.780 If that's what you feel will help get that across the finish line for them.

01:16:25.840 Um, Dr. Farrell, appreciate you, appreciate your work.

01:16:29.280 Thank you as always for joining the podcast.

01:16:31.000 I appreciate it.

01:16:32.240 It is.

01:16:32.800 You, you listen so well.

01:16:34.200 You ask great questions.

01:16:35.280 You're, um, you, you, you put yourself on the line and, um, open yourself up with, with, um, thoughts.

01:16:41.500 It really is a pleasure, um, uh, talking with you and being, doing this podcast together.

01:16:46.720 Thank you.

01:16:47.300 That means a lot.

01:16:50.060 Man, Dr. Warren Farrell, uh, as I said earlier, this is the third time he's been on the podcast.

01:16:55.900 I, uh, I really admire this man.

01:16:58.020 I really respect the work that he's done.

01:17:00.960 Um, I respect his own journey of, of self-discovery and, and maybe dancing on the, uh, what I would say the other side of the aisle a little bit, but, uh, also really just appreciate the fact that he can see and adjust and evolve and change his way of thinking.

01:17:18.780 Which is something I try to do as well when I'm wrong.

01:17:21.320 Uh, I try to change and evolve and grow and learn something new.

01:17:24.540 And I think having somebody like Dr. Farrell on the podcast who sees it from all sides, all perspectives is invaluable.

01:17:31.520 So if you would please support our guest, Dr. Warren Farrell, by picking up a copy of his book, rolemate to soulmate, or one of his other great works, which I recommend is the boy crisis.

01:17:41.480 That's been instrumental, uh, not only in this movement, but in leading my own sons.

01:17:46.100 So, uh, make sure you check out those also just take a screenshot on your phone right now, tag me, tag Dr. Farrell, uh, let people know who you're listening to post it up on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Tik TOK, et cetera, et cetera.

01:18:01.800 Uh, and we are available on all of those platforms, Facebook, X, Instagram, all at Ryan Mickler and on Tik TOK at, at order of man.

01:18:11.980 Tik TOK is the enemy.

01:18:13.180 I'm going to say that Tik TOK is the enemy, but if I can use the enemy's resources against him, then I'm going to do that. 0.98

01:18:19.100 So we're over at order of man.

01:18:20.840 That's something that I've been posting some replays and videos on over there.

01:18:25.020 Guys connect with us, stay in tune, stay, stay, uh, connected to what we're doing.

01:18:30.160 Check out the men's forge.com for our event in the spring.

01:18:35.560 And other than that, you've got your marching orders.

01:18:38.620 I will be back later this week for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:18:49.020 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:18:51.920 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:18:55.720 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:19:00.160 And we'll be here to join the order of man.

Order of Man - October 22, 2024

DR. WARREN FARRELL ｜ Male Privilege⧸Power： Fact or Fiction？

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