Dr. Warren Farrell helps unpack why that is not the case and, if anything, how genuine men are the cure to many of the ailments of modern times. Dr. Farrell is the author of 8 books on men's and women's issues, and as a previous supporter of Second Wave Feminism turned leading figure in the men's rights movement, he has seen firsthand the dangers and benefits of these movements and how we ought to move forward.
00:00:00.000Many of us have been accused of perpetuating the concept of male privilege and male power.
00:00:04.920Heaven forbid a man uses his God-given talents and abilities to lift his people up.
00:00:09.820But too many misguided and damaged souls tend to see only the worst parts of the men in their vicinity or on social media and in the bright light of the entertainment industry.
00:00:21.240Those men in no way are indicative of the general consensus of men, and yet many still view men as the premier problem in society today.
00:00:30.800My guest today, Dr. Warren Farrell, helps unpack why that is not the case and, if anything, how genuine men are the cure to many of the ailments of modern times.
00:00:40.820We talk about why men's issues are not just men's issues, the difference in what language men and women speak,
00:00:47.760the male equivalents of the feminist movement, why men are more interested in garnering respect than love,
00:00:54.260the dreaded V-word, vulnerability, and six mindsets to form powerful connections between men and women.
00:01:01.460You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
00:01:04.420Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:01:07.360When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:01:11.840You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:01:16.360This is your life. This is who you are.
00:01:19.380This is who you will become at the end of the day.
00:01:22.100And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:27.440Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.
00:01:29.920If you're new here, first of all, welcome.
00:01:32.400And let me just take a quick second to tell you that is my goal to bring on the most successful men on the planet.
00:01:40.220Scholars, athletes, warriors, New York Times bestselling authors, entertainers, et cetera, et cetera.
00:01:46.360But to extract some of their wisdom, some of their knowledge, some of their hard-fought lessons and give them to you and me
00:01:52.880so that we can go out and take those experiences and those lessons and learn from the victories of other people
00:01:58.660and also the failures of other people.
00:02:00.320We've had guys like Chris Williamson on the podcast, Dave Ramsey, Tim Tebow, Jocko Willing, Cam Haynes, David Goggins, Ben Shapiro, George Foreman.
00:02:09.360Again, some of the most incredible men on the planet.
00:02:12.700And I want to welcome you for being here and also say thank you for supporting this movement to reclaim and restore masculinity.
00:02:20.820Now, I've got a very good one lined up with a three-peat guest today, Dr. Warren Farrell.
00:02:25.160Before I introduce you to him, just want to mention my friends and our show sponsors,
00:02:29.040the premier show sponsors of this podcast over at Montana Knife Company.
00:02:34.540I've got a big hunt coming up in about a week and a half now, and I have been sharpening a few of my Montana Knife Company knives
00:02:42.840in anticipation of using these things out in the field and breaking down my Minnesota white tail or white tails this year.
00:05:16.000Yes, I think the good news is that there, so the circumstances for men are getting overall worse and worse,
00:05:24.020you know, to a greater degree than ever before.
00:05:27.100Fewer men are graduating from college compared to women.
00:05:30.660And this is not, you know, these men's issues are not just men's issues because, you know,
00:05:35.740when women are in college, they don't want to have half, you know, twice the number of women as men
00:05:40.800because that, you know, gives the odds of them, you know, they have to compete with a lot of other women if they're heterosexual for a man.
00:05:48.240And so, and also, you know, when a woman graduates from college and a man doesn't and the numbers are getting closer and closer to two to one,
00:05:57.760which is projected to be in about 10 years, those women don't, you know, most college graduates who are women are not that interested in marrying men who are college dropouts or who haven't even gone to college.
00:06:10.000And so, you know, women have an inclination, you know, when, you know, they'll date a man and have sex with a man who's tall, good looking, but unemployed.
00:06:18.800But if he's tall, good looking and unemployed, that's this, it ends with the sex.
00:06:22.900It doesn't, it does, she doesn't look to him for, to be a future husband.
00:06:28.960And so that's, you know, if men and women aren't progressing at about the same rate, there's a lot of angst that is created.
00:06:37.740And so that's, it's not good for either sex.
00:06:41.500And, you know, the, you know, men still committing suicide is four times as often as women are.
00:06:48.300And, you know, being much more likely to die from drug overdoses and be addicted to video games and be addicted to porn.
00:06:54.780These are all things that are continuing.
00:06:57.400What is a little bit changed in a positive way is that there's been more recognition of boys and men's issues in the last year or two than there was previously.
00:07:07.100And so that's beginning, so it's beginning to sort of become so bad that even, you know, deniers have to, have to sort of like, you know, realize that maybe we are, maybe we need to pay more attention to boys and men's issues.
00:07:37.980There's no, there's, there's none of this.
00:07:39.660And in 2024, I think I received significantly less scorn, mock and ridicule about the work that we're doing.
00:07:49.300In fact, if anything, I am continually receiving positive and encouraging messages because there is clearly, I don't want to say a war against manliness and masculinity.
00:08:01.860At a minimum, there's a dismissal of it.
00:08:04.800And I think it's something that needs to be addressed.
00:08:07.760You did say something interesting, though, about marriage.
00:08:11.260And I wrote this down as you were saying this.
00:08:25.980Basically agree, especially the beauty part.
00:08:29.760The fertility, many men don't, many men are okay about having children, okay about not having children.
00:08:36.560Some men, of course, are very desirous of having children.
00:08:39.360And if that's a strong thing for men, then fertility is an issue.
00:08:44.480But if a woman wants a child and a man does not really want a child, but he's not sort of like super firm about it, they'll have a child.
00:08:53.720And that will almost, you know, nine out of ten times I would say that that will happen.
00:08:59.580But it's definitely true that men are interested in youth and beauty and addicted to it.
00:09:04.960And women are interested in economic security and are addicted to it.
00:09:12.020Even when they earn their own source of money, it's still very unlikely that a woman will earn a man that is, let's say, really a wonderful, not a provider protector, but a nurturer connector.
00:09:26.280Women often will say to me things like, you know, oh, it's so unfair.
00:09:30.380Men can be have-it-all men, but women can't be have-it-all women.
00:09:33.840And I say, actually, that's not accurate.
00:09:35.580But a woman can be a have-it-all woman.
00:09:39.300And I go, well, she can focus on her career and go as high as she wishes to go and have children if she marries a man who is more of a nurturer connector man and would be happy to stay home and be with the children.
00:09:56.060But there's one condition that you need to respect him because if he's home with the children full time and he doesn't feel your respect for that, then he will, he'll sense that.
00:10:11.100And every man knows on some level, men don't usually articulate this, but they know on some level that if a woman, that a woman can't love a man, she doesn't respect.
00:10:20.320And if he begins to go to a party and see that she's sort of like flirting with some of the top people in her company or whatever, he'll sense that and pick that up in the same way that you would pick it up if you were pregnant and you said, gee, do I look good to you?
00:10:39.520And he said, oh, sweetie, you look just perfect to me.
00:10:41.580And then he goes to a party and flirts with other, you know, quasi-anorexic women who don't have the tummy.
00:10:46.500And so, you know, we're all sensitive to the way we're rejected.
00:10:52.440And but, you know, the big thing is understanding that if only one sex wins, both sexes lose.
00:11:03.780And it's and during the last half century, we've paid attention to women's issues and we've said that men's issues are, well, you know, we need to provide resources for women.
00:11:16.500Because they have all the power, they have all the privilege and not men.
00:11:21.280We need to provide resources for women because men have had all the power and all the privilege.
00:11:25.700And so we don't want to, you know, do things for men because men already have the power.
00:11:33.000And that's a complete misunderstanding of of men and masculinity.
00:11:38.480So just to make it clear how that is a complete misunderstanding.
00:11:43.640When I started, I've started hundreds of men's groups.
00:11:46.380I used to be on the board of directors of the National Organization for Women, as you know.
00:11:49.520And I was, I guess, the world's leading male feminist, if you will, and spoke all around the world on women's issues and and the importance of them.
00:11:57.420And the as I as I did that, I the National Organization for Women was about to get rid of men.
00:12:06.440And they had a big debate about whether they should get rid of men or not and not allowing them to join now.
00:12:11.720And so they finally decided that, you know, well, we'll the big problem was that once a month they had consciousness raising groups and the consciousness raising groups.
00:12:22.720When men got involved with them, the women were inhibited about saying what they really felt for for very obvious reasons.
00:12:29.300And so they said and, you know, basically the question was, how can we get the men out of women's hair?
00:12:35.200And their solution was to ask, say, say, well, let's ask Warren Farrell if he would be willing to form some men's groups at the time that the women's groups are meeting so that he can get the men, you know, in their own separate groups.
00:12:53.600And for a number of months, I sort of since I was doing my doctoral dissertation on the women's movement, you know, I would and all these men attending the now meetings,
00:13:06.560And so we would, you know, we would all compete to be the biggest jock in the sensitivity group.
00:13:11.600And so but one day I decided instead of like lecturing to the men about the importance of feminism, I just decided to listen to their life stories.
00:13:22.280And I asked them the question, what's the biggest hole in your heart?
00:13:26.020And we went around and for many of the men and then I formed some 300 men's groups.
00:13:31.820And I found this to be repeated again and again.
00:13:34.780The biggest hole in their heart was doing something like they wanted to be they were an elementary school teacher or an artist, a writer, an actor, a musician.
00:13:44.820They were doing something that was very fulfilling to them.
00:13:47.860But then they had their first child and they realized that that fulfilling job, with a couple of exceptions, did not pay enough to support themselves,
00:13:55.960their children to buy a new home that would accommodate a larger family in a good school district that would allow their children to have opportunities that they didn't have and allow their wives and them to have a decent home in a decent neighborhood with decent schools.
00:14:10.500And so in order to do that, I remember one man, he he just he was he was just a sweetheart of a guy and he loved kids.
00:14:19.140And by all reports, he just got along with them so well and was his passion to be involved with them.
00:14:25.460And but he realized that, you know, the teachers did not make enough money to be able to do those aspirations that I was just mentioning.
00:14:33.280So he he to his great regret, gave up teaching.
00:14:38.280He was the type of person who hated administrative stuff and, you know, you know, petty little squabbles between different parts of the community.
00:14:47.260But he did it because he felt that he needed to earn more money and work longer and harder hours in order to be to to support his family.
00:14:55.220And then and then and a number of men gave up a musician gigs, especially because that wasn't earning enough money to support four or five people.
00:15:05.720And so but then they heard the feminist community saying, well, look at education.
00:15:12.940Only a small number of men compared to women are teachers.
00:15:19.120And and yet the majority of the principals and the superintendents of schools are men.
00:15:25.220Which goes to show you two things, that men have men, male privilege and men have male power.
00:15:31.160And I began to see, wow, these men gave up their passion to do what they needed to do rather than what they wanted to do, not because of male privilege and male power, but because of male obligation and male responsibility.
00:15:44.180And we were and rather than being appreciated for it, these men were being put down as, you know, you're the principals and superintendents because you have all the power and all the privilege.
00:15:55.580And I began to see that men were being misunderstood in a very fundamental type of way.
00:16:01.960And if there was a hashtag men, too, as opposed to a hashtag me, too, only for women, that men would be encouraged to talk about these things and share what their feelings and fears were.
00:16:12.900But for the most part, you know, women and particularly women who are feminists in their orientation don't understand this about men.
00:16:21.360And they see men as having male privilege and male power.
00:16:31.180I think power is in the eye of the holder, really, or the person who is subject to that power.
00:16:36.120So, for example, a woman might believe that a man has power if he's an administrator versus an educator, actually in the classroom is what I mean by that.
00:16:47.040And men generally might think that women hold the power because they hold the breeding rights.
00:16:53.100They're the ones who get to decide who is going to breed and who is not.
00:16:57.140And I know that strips it down to its, like, most basic fundamental level.
00:17:28.280It's sort of – there are different dimensions of this.
00:17:30.820So clearly the President of the United States has more power over more people than you and I have, right?
00:17:40.020Or than – and you and I have actually, you know, more influence than most people have.
00:17:45.640But the – and so there is that type of power.
00:17:49.300But I define power as having control over one's life.
00:17:54.480And the way power has typically been defined for men is as feeling obligated to earn money that often someone else spends while they die sooner.
00:18:11.860And, you know, if I were to go and do an all-women's workshop and say I'm going to teach you to have power, I'm going to teach you to have – to feel obligated to earn money that someone else will spend while you die sooner, the women would laugh.
00:18:29.720Can I jump in there on that one real quick?
00:18:51.160However, the perceive themselves is a little bit – men don't think of themselves as disposable.
00:18:59.960The subtitle of the book, The Myth of Male Power that I wrote, is why men are the disposable sex.
00:19:05.620And I explained that men were disposable in war and disposable in the workplace, meaning that 93% of the deaths at work are by men and a higher percentage of the injuries.
00:19:19.100And the remnant injuries are almost all men by remnant injuries.
00:19:23.260I mean a firefighter is far more likely to die at work if he's a male.
00:19:28.800And yet the remnant injuries after he retires, him dying from black lung disease as a result of being a firefighter, are almost completely by men.
00:19:46.460And women don't look at the fact that these – that men are disposable.
00:19:51.160They just – that's so much a part of our, you know, inner being.
00:19:55.080You know, we – whenever they're – each generation has had its war.
00:20:01.740And as each generation has had its war, men have been asked to be willing to risk being killed and also to kill.
00:20:10.560And we know that it's traumatizing – it's obviously traumatizing to be killed, but it's – and it's also traumatizing to kill.
00:20:18.240And, you know, the PTSD is almost always a result of, you know, seeing a very close friend be killed or, alternatively, having – seeing somebody that you have killed and – or some type of trauma like that.
00:20:33.320And so the – and so men just accept the fact that, you know, Uncle Joe joined the Marines.
00:20:39.680His picture is on the – on the mantle.
00:20:43.120And so we use words like hero and respect for men.
00:20:47.820They're social bribes for men to do – to be willing to be disposable in each generation's war.
00:20:54.760However, there's a new sort of crisis that's happened since – in the last 20, 30, 40 years, which is that it used to be men would define it as their purpose to join the war and be disposable.
00:21:07.700Or, you know, join a profession that earns a lot of money or leaves them disposable at work or they, you know, they climb some economic ladder and they – and they barely have a life.
00:21:19.800But – and they're disposable in a different type of way.
00:21:40.040And women don't think about men being disposable either.
00:21:42.860They just are much more willing to marry somebody who earns a lot of money or is going to be and maybe is a lawyer or a doctor without regard to how many hours per week he works and, you know, that type of thing.
00:22:01.240And so I think that there's a difference between having what I would call power or not having it and even the trap for many men is they've never thought about that.
00:22:15.080They've just been human doings, not human beings.
00:22:18.140What's interesting about a woman who – and I'm speaking in generalities, but a woman who would marry for potential, if that's the term we're going to use, a doctor, a lawyer, et cetera, et cetera.
00:22:32.560That's what she maybe even subconsciously is marrying for.
00:22:35.780But you get 10, 15, 20 years into a marriage and lo and behold, a woman gets exactly what she wants.
00:22:44.740She's – all the money is coming into the family and then all of a sudden it's like, well, you're not here for the family.
00:22:51.660And I think this is something that a lot of guys and gals run into is that a woman marries for that potential.
00:22:57.320The guy achieves the potential he was sought after for and then he's ostracized or divorced or separated from the family because he's pursuing the thing that she actually wanted.
00:23:10.980And then that brings us back to the have-it-all woman, the woman complaining that she can't be a have-it-all woman whereas men can be have-it-all men.
00:23:21.000And so what I say to women about that is that you can be a have-it-all woman.
00:23:24.940If you seek out a man who's basically a nurturer connector and you show him and you let him know that this is what you would love, then men like that who raise children, the children do extremely well on average.
00:23:42.240And the father is happy if he feels respected and not happy if he doesn't.
00:23:50.580But if she runs that one condition by herself that could I respect a man who is taking care of the children full time, maybe doing something on the side to earn money, but I'd still respect him whether or not that does produce money.
00:24:05.660And then I can be a have-it-all woman.
00:24:11.000That is, I can break a glass ceiling, but I will be able to have children that I know are home being raised well and a man that is happy with doing that.
00:24:23.420Now, many women say to me, well, would a man be willing to do that?
00:24:27.540Well, and first of all, she has to usually grapple with whether she'd be comfortable with a man doing that.
00:24:47.520And some women are pretty conscious of the fact that they, well, I don't think I really would be comfortable marrying a man who is staying home full time.
00:24:58.180He's not earning any money is usually what I'll hear from him.
00:25:00.940And I'll say, well, let's just say that that's the case.
00:25:03.660Or he may have a desire to earn money but not really end up producing it in reality.
00:25:09.140And so would you not have respect for him?
00:25:11.900And many women have to grapple with that.
00:25:14.260But if she does grapple with that and does handle that, then she becomes a have-it-all woman.
00:27:47.900Yes, in the Role Mate to Soul Mate book behind me, these are all the things I teach people to do in a much more detailed way than that summarizes.
00:27:56.620But if that lawyer does that, the client he's representing or she's representing fires the lawyer and says,
00:29:23.060They're listening to themselves have responses while the other person is talking.
00:29:28.840So let's say as a result, and that's good for the CEO and it's good for the lawyer.
00:29:33.240But let's say that lawyer or the CEO comes home from work, female or male, and their wife or their husband, their spouse is talking and or their children are talking.
00:29:45.500And you're listening for a few seconds, picking up the gist of what they're saying, and then beginning to form in your own mind's eye your response to that or your solution to that.
00:29:55.720And your children or your wife or your husband do not feel listened to or heard.
00:30:01.280They just can feel the energy of you self-listening or listening to yourself form a response.
00:30:07.620And so the qualities it takes to be successful at work are so frequently in tension with the qualities it takes to be successful in love.
00:30:15.120And so those are things that no one is really working on, and that's part of what the Role Mate to Soulmate book teaches couples to be conscious of and to also know how to not do and to overcome the natural propensity to do that.
00:30:33.720I mean, I even think about, Warren, like this podcast.
00:30:38.160Admittedly, I'm self-listening in a lot of ways because that is the role.
00:30:52.360But I found in my relationship with my girlfriend now is when I just listen, not self-listen, when I just listen to her without the need to respond or solve her problems, typically my responses might be, oh, I'm sorry.
00:31:08.320Or that sounds like it was a hard day or that sucks.
00:31:11.440Or, you know, something where it's not me trying to solve anything has actually been more advantageous than me rushing in to be the CEO of the relationship.
00:31:42.700When a man wants to tell his woman about his day, he wants to be respected for the good work and the value that he provided and everything that came with what he contributed to the relationship.
00:31:58.020That's so true that oftentimes, therefore, the man is talking about what he succeeded doing so he can get that respect as opposed to talking about his vulnerability, his hurt, somebody that sort of disconnected from him, something that happened where he failed, something that happened where he's having a problem.
00:32:20.080And so he oftentimes represses that part of his day so he can get respect as opposed to feel connection.
00:32:43.060The idea of vulnerability, you know, and I think we have to define that term because everybody defines it a little bit differently.
00:32:48.380But I've seen and even been part of situations where a man is vulnerable, like you're saying, and it actually undermines the relationship or at least the perspective that the woman has on the man.
00:33:03.180Is there a point at which vulnerability is repulsive or off-putting to women that you need to be aware of that as a man?
00:33:33.600We're not vulnerable to other men because we're fearful that if we are, we'll lose their respect as well.
00:33:39.660So if you're vulnerable to a man and you say, gee, I'm really having a tough time with my marriage right now, I'm a little bit preoccupied, excuse me and forgive me about that.
00:33:50.260But, you know, I haven't been really my same self.
00:33:52.440And, you know, I think we may be headed for a divorce.
00:33:55.660And, you know, she says this and I say this and the kids say this and here's what's happening.
00:34:00.520And it's like, whoa, wait a minute, the other man is saying to himself in his mind's eye, if, you know, I'm very happy to be listening to you for the first 30 seconds.
00:34:09.840But after that, you know, if you continue to go on, I'm going to be not only I'm going to be losing some respect for you, but I'm also if something comes up about, you know, should, you know, should we promote Ryan or should we promote Kevin?
00:34:56.640And so when we realize that we can't be vulnerable to anyone, we don't oftentimes even allow ourselves to acknowledge our own vulnerability.
00:35:18.660And instead of if you're angry and, you know, you're getting a divorce and you're angry during the divorce and one of you explodes, just go.
00:35:25.660Instead of hearing the word, instead of hearing anger and responding with anger.
00:35:29.940Whenever you hear anger, hear the word, hear vulnerability, and you'll be more tempted to respond with empathy.
00:35:39.020And so so so so this is the challenge there.
00:35:42.540Now, you said something about men respect women connection.
00:36:03.460Whether you're a woman or a man listening to this, this is really crucial to understand.
00:36:08.740When a woman is sharing something at work, what she does, if you listen for a bit and then you come up and you're working on solutions, here's what is really happening for you.
00:36:26.080When a woman is bleeding, if we love her, our natural protector instinct responds with, I have one obligation of who I love is bleeding.
00:36:40.660I need to find the band-aid that will stop the bleeding.
00:36:45.240And so therefore, when she is talking, our desire is to self-listen to solutions that we can provide to take away her bleeding, to take away her pain.
00:36:59.800But the real solution, and so here is what is happening for the woman.
00:37:04.200When we provide the solution, after a few minutes, we interrupt her need to just process and complete talking about that.
00:37:16.860But we also, by providing a solution in a few seconds, we are basically saying, don't worry, honey.
00:37:26.180I can provide, I can figure out a solution in a few seconds to what you couldn't figure out in a lifetime.
00:37:35.320Now, that doesn't make her feel very, that's very demeaning, very condescending, very insulting.
00:37:41.120She doesn't articulate it that way and you didn't intend it that way, but that's the way it feels to her.
00:37:47.540And so when I'm working with CEOs or top executives in particular who are much more vulnerable to getting that quick solution out, like we talked about a minute ago,
00:37:57.940I say there is a solution when the woman you love is complaining, listening, and that is to be there for her.
00:38:11.600Listen with an empathy in your eyes, an empathy in your heart.
00:38:14.880And share with her when she's finished, just respond to her by just giving space, seeing, and oftentimes when you give space,
00:38:27.080she'll come up with another dimension of what was bothering her because she now sees that she's being listened to.
00:38:34.180And then when she says to you something like, so what do you think?
00:38:39.000The best answer is, and this is not an answer, this is where I sometimes fall down.
00:38:43.160And when my wife suggests, you know, do you have a thought?
00:38:46.520I usually bring up the solution that I think, but I don't do it until she asks for it.
00:38:51.320But when I'm at my best, even when she does ask for my thoughts or my solutions, I say, I do have some thoughts, but what are your thoughts?
00:39:02.880And four out of five times, I'd say, she comes up with either as good, a better solution, or alternatively, something that I would have said anyway.
00:39:12.880But she feels a lot better when she invents it, when she comes up with it.
00:40:03.120But I wanted to share something with you.
00:40:05.620And I've had this thought is that most men pay lip service and tell everyone how important it is for us to band together.
00:40:13.420But in reality and practicality, how often does it actually happen?
00:40:17.580It's far less than we ought to have to admit.
00:40:20.960But banding together as men is one of the most powerful ways to create meaningful change in our own lives and in the lives of those we care about.
00:40:28.160I don't want to blow smoke up your arse or anything like that.
00:40:31.760I actually want to live by what I preach.
00:40:34.940And that's why I've banded with Larry Hagner, Connor Beaton, and Matt Boudreau to bring you an event and experience.
00:40:42.240And unlike any other in the spring of 2025, it's called The Forge, A Gathering of Men.
00:40:47.940And when you register, you're going to join us and hundreds of other men for learning, leaning into each other, camaraderie, and the accountability required to realize our full potential as men.
00:40:58.720Now, we only have 200 spots, and they are filling up very, very quickly, so I would highly suggest that you get on this quick.
00:41:06.460You can go to themensforge.com and get signed up.
00:41:10.340This event will take place just outside of St. Louis on May 1st through the 4th, 2025, so that's going to be coming up fairly quickly.
00:43:19.660First, when people first fall in love, they often even, you know, when the first time they have sex together, if there's a chemical attraction, they often, like, feel like they're soulmates.
00:43:29.680And, of course, they're not a soulmate with somebody they don't even know yet.
00:43:34.060But, you know, eventually, as their relationship moves on, they start playing roles.
00:43:39.280Those roles may be traditional, nontraditional, whatever.
00:43:42.180They each carve out what they tend to do in a relationship.
00:43:45.500And what's also usually happening is that when they begin to start feeling that there's something the other person does that isn't like it, they would like to do it, they start maybe giving a suggestion for an improvement.
00:43:59.760The person hearing that suggestion for an improvement often considers it a criticism.
00:44:04.680And the biologically, I explain in Role Mate to Soul Mate, that the biologically natural response to being criticized is to be defensive.
00:44:16.960Now, let me explain biologically natural.
00:44:21.700Historically speaking, when we heard a criticism, it was a potential enemy.
00:44:26.300So it was functional to get up our defenses so we wouldn't be killed by the enemy or alternatively to kill the enemy before the enemy killed us.
00:44:36.580And so that was functional for survival.
00:44:42.280And yet, almost everybody who gets into a relationship, when they begin to feel criticized the first time or two, because there's so much love there and so much heart open, we're oftentimes open to a criticism or two.
00:44:58.120But as a relationship goes on, and especially when you start living together, and especially once you have children, there are so many complexities to raising children and even to living together, particularly if one person moves into the home of another person that's set up for a series of challenges and everyone feels criticized a great deal.
00:45:20.580And so the response so often to the criticism is to become defensive, so the person sharing that, what they consider a concern, not a criticism, is to start to walk on eggshells.
00:45:35.040Because the last time I brought up something like this to Ryan or to Joe or Jane, she or he responded defensively, so I'm going to be careful about just doing it at the right moment, the right time, the right way, and everything else.
00:45:49.680And you sort of feel like you're both walking on eggshells in a relationship pretty soon.
00:45:54.820If you don't have a venting outlet, women usually begin to talk to other women, men drink, or just come home later, or do something along those lines, or keep the feelings to themselves for the reasons we mentioned before.
00:46:07.840And so what I saw this being true, for 30 years, I've been doing couples workshops called Role Mate to Soul Mate.
00:46:20.600And I advised at the beginning, you know, that when you're criticized to really be aware of not being defensive, everybody in the workshop agreed.
00:46:31.760And then, but then I started doing follow-up phone calls to the people who attended the workshop.
00:46:38.840There were free and group phone calls.
00:46:40.720And I said, you know, what worked, what didn't work?
00:46:43.020And almost invariably a very high percentage of people say, well, that, you know, the moment that the criticism appeared, the wisdom disappeared.
00:46:50.820You know, I got the wisdom in the workshop taught not to be defensive when I was criticized.
00:47:27.600Or somebody else has a much better one or faster or whatever.
00:47:32.060So, but in this case, I felt I could develop a solution.
00:47:38.020But I had a really tough job on my hands, which is if responding to criticism defensively is biologically natural, I'm going to have to teach somebody how to make an evolutionary shift when they hear criticism.
00:47:54.980And so I, long story short, I experimented with what worked and didn't work and got feedback from the follow-up phone calls.
00:48:06.000I saw that I needed to set aside a time during the week that I ended up calling a caring and sharing practice or a caring and sharing time that lasted about two hours in which before a person heard only one criticism or concern of their partner, they did a number of things.
00:48:30.520First, they learned to appreciate their partner at five levels of specificity.
00:48:38.880Then it would be followed by altering their natural biological state so that they altered their natural defensiveness by sharing six mindsets.
00:48:52.520So, the person about to share a concern or criticism sees that they're preparing themselves to be safe and experience the criticism not as something to be defensive, but rather as an opportunity to be more deeply loved.
00:49:19.540So, I'll take a little sip of tea here and explain the appreciations more and then also how I do the mindset, which I think are really fun.
00:49:35.480While you're taking that sip, one thing that I wrote down here, and this is something I've learned and often said is, well, number one, not all who criticize you are your enemies and not all who praise you are your allies.
00:50:18.140To be appreciated, to be appreciated, to build a deeper connection, to move the family forward, to raise kids together, to have a beautiful life, however that looks like to them.
00:50:26.540I found that by just taking a pause and a step back and asking myself, what is my goal in this conversation keeps me from sticking my dumb foot in my dumb mouth, which I happen to do quite often.
00:50:43.500And most everybody would agree with that.
00:50:46.200The challenge is that for most people, too often, as you were just implying, at the moment of the criticism, the criticism stings so much.
00:50:57.360And ironically, the more, well, not ironically, but sort of understandably, the more deeply you love somebody, the more it stings, the more it hurts.
00:51:07.860The depth of love makes you vulnerable.
00:51:09.300And so the first thing that I have couples do is to, before they share their one concern, and they're only allowed to share one concern per week, and I explain what to do the rest of the week in terms of creating a conflict-free zone.
00:51:25.680But before they share that one concern, I have them share two appreciations at five levels of specificity.
00:51:36.700So let's say you say to your, let's say it's just past Thanksgiving, and you say, I just want you to know I really love the way you cook.
00:51:49.840So that would be an appreciation, but that's at one level of specificity, and, you know, she's probably heard that a dozen times before.
00:51:58.960But level of specificity number two is, I really love the way that the skin on that turkey came out so crisp.
00:52:42.800And so rather than just saying spicing is great, you try to identify, even if you don't get it right, what those spices are so that the person feels seen.
00:52:53.780So was that parsley or sage or rosemary or thyme or some other Simon and Garfunkel spice?
00:53:00.760And so now the person being appreciated is feeling not just appreciated in general, but at such a specific level and with curiosity that shows respect for how they have done something so well.
00:54:47.120So one of the things that is true in the Rolemate to Soulmate book and also the workshop and the online course that goes with it is that since handling personal criticism without becoming defensive is biologically unnatural, that every single thing that I teach is unnatural at the beginning.
00:55:09.500And it's not only and it's so it will maybe at first seem like it's you're working at it.
00:55:16.640And the reason it seems like you're working at it is because you are working at it.
00:55:21.520It's the I used to call the subtitle of Rolemate to Soulmate in the workshop form.
00:55:28.040I still do the art and discipline of love.
00:55:30.820And people got the discipline of love and the answer is yes.
00:55:36.100If you are naturally defensive in response to criticism, becoming not defensive requires both a method and a process that I teach, but it also requires a discipline to do something that's unnatural repeatedly just because it works.
00:56:01.600And when you practice them, the wonderful thing is that your neurons can start connecting differently and you and you and something that you practice again and again becomes natural after a while.
00:56:14.820Well, I mean, I imagine you're also going to get feedback when you're specific.
00:56:18.780She's going to respond more favorably, which reinforces the idea that maybe you're on the right path here.
00:56:24.980There are very, very few people who have something seen about them that is very specific that they don't like.
00:56:37.140Like, you know, your beard is really nice and trim.
00:56:41.500The last time I did a podcast with you two years ago, if I'm remembering your beard, the beard was much longer.
00:56:51.200And it looked good both ways, but actually I like it even better now that it's trim.
00:56:55.660You know, so and, you know, and you have a much more informal feel to you, but there is a power to the type of blue shirt that you're wearing now that comes across very well.
00:57:07.580And it distinguishes itself from the background and the background blends in really nicely with your hair.
00:57:15.740And so it really creates a nice overall combination.
00:57:39.060So this caring and sharing practice, I have couples do once a week.
00:57:43.360I have every couple put a couple of weeks ahead of time on the calendar when their caring and sharing practice will be.
00:57:51.540It's usually on Sunday for most people because it's a bit more of a relaxed day.
00:57:55.380Make, if you have children, making sure that you let the children know this is time that mom and dad are going to be spending talking with each other about trying to solve problems and work with each other and appreciate each other.
00:58:05.540And eventually you teach the children how to do this process also.
00:58:08.340So, um, but, um, this is, this is mom and dad time and you make sure that you have a situation set up so that you have that privacy during that time.
00:58:15.660And so, um, you then, um, share two appreciations and then you, because, because it's biologically natural to be defensive, you have to do something that's biologically unnatural to experience criticism from someone you love as something that you associate with an opportunity to be more deeply loved rather than criticize and angry and defensive.
00:58:45.100So, so, so I asked people to, to, to alter their natural state, um, by sharing out loud six mindsets that each bring them into a deeper and deeper way of being able to hear criticism without becoming defensive.
00:59:02.460So, for example, the first mindset might be what I call the love guarantee and the love guarantee is saying something like the following.
00:59:11.320So, if I provide a safe environment for what you want to say, even if I 100% disagree with it, even if you're exaggerating, in my opinion, even if you're shouting at me or sarcastic, if I just provide a safe environment for that, no matter what the tone of voice, et cetera, you'll feel more secure with me.
00:59:36.060Less like, less like you have to walk on eggshells, more like you feel, um, that I love you, um, and you'll feel more loved by me, and therefore you'll feel more love for me.
00:59:50.420So, so now I'm having the person about to hear this, say this out loud.
00:59:57.220So, the person about to give the criticism knows that every time she or he says something that could be argued with, that they're not seeing their partner, um, start to form self-listen or form a response to that.
01:00:13.480They're seeing their partner become more and more in a way pleased that they're exaggerating, lying, or shouting because, um, they, um, because, uh, they, uh, they, they're feeling more secure.
01:00:29.700Um, and so, um, then ironically, therefore, there's no need to shout, no need to lie, no need to exaggerate because you know you're going to be heard.
01:00:40.560Lying, shouting, exaggerating are usually things that are ways of, or, or nagging are usually statements about we don't, have not felt heard, and so therefore we have to exaggerate, we have to lie, um, we have to repeat, we have to nag in order to get heard.
01:00:59.760That's interesting. I think about that, you know, the, the common example would be, you know, a wife asking her husband to, you know, work on the, the garden boxes and she has to ask him, you know, every week for, you know, 16 weeks before he finally does it.
01:01:17.400She's not nagging so much, if I'm understanding you correctly, because she needs the garden boxes, although she might, she's nagging because she doesn't feel heard, is what you're saying.
01:01:30.420And like, it's not important to the husband, but it's important to her, but she's not feeling like she's, her priorities are the husband's priorities.
01:01:38.720Yes. Yes. So that he's not at least adapting somewhat or responding, you know, that, um, I don't do the garden boxes, you know, eventually responding when he has his turn to talk.
01:01:48.020So the most important thing is when that person's talking about, you know, doing the garden boxes, oftentimes they're feeling that the energy that's coming from the person listening to them is, you know, why I can't do it or how much she's nagging.
01:02:02.280Or, you know, um, it's, it's a sort of defensive, non-receptive response as opposed to just like, um, really feeling that, okay, so what I hear you saying is that the garden boxes, you'd like the garden boxes done.
01:02:17.400Because, you know, when you look out of the garden boxes, you really see a type of beauty and it gives you a type of peace and you've tried to do this yourself, but, you know, um, uh, but Ryan, you know, I know you do this better and more naturally than I do.
01:02:29.700And so I really would love it if you could, if you could, if you could do that.
01:02:32.920And so your first job is just to hear this and just to see that and let her know that you're hearing, um, that, that, that you're hearing this, you, you let her know what you've heard her say.
01:02:46.780And then you say, did, did I distort anything?
01:02:49.060And she says, well, yeah, I think you distorted this.
01:02:52.080And so then you don't argue with the distortion.
01:02:54.660You, um, keep working at it until she says, no, nothing was distorted.
01:02:58.860And then you ask if anything is missed.
01:03:00.980And, um, and then, uh, she says something that you did miss something.
01:03:05.480You don't say, no, I think I included that.
01:03:07.300You just, you work at it until she feels, uh, that there's nothing, um, missed.
01:03:12.920And then, uh, if you, then you invite her to add something new, if she wishes to add something that maybe she felt like she forgot or didn't feel safe to add at the beginning.
01:03:22.000Now, I say she, but, you know, this, this, this issue is exactly the same in same-sex couples as it is with, um, uh, with, um, uh, heterosexual couples.
01:03:33.320Um, nobody in straight gay relations or gay relationships, um, no parent, no child.
01:03:41.560It's the same with parents, parents and children.
01:03:47.000So this, this method works when I say somebody is a couple, I mean, any two people who have a relationship where there's love, uh, that feel that they oftentimes don't feel heard by the other person.
01:04:12.980That's, that is for different reasons, men and women, um, women are more likely to say what, um, they want in a relationship and not feel heard.
01:04:27.240Men are more likely to repress it because the few times they have said something, um, that she's disconnected from him sexually.
01:04:35.160Um, she's disconnected with him emotion from him emotionally, and he promises himself that he will not, um, complain.
01:04:44.580So his response, the deeper long-term destructive response is sometimes he either goes out drinking or stays, you know, um, uh, goes golfing or does something that gets him away from the tension.
01:04:57.000Um, or alternatively, um, he keeps it to himself, keeps it to himself and, you know, some, something comes up that's relatively small and bam, it comes out as a volcano, um, of anger.
01:05:08.360And, uh, I only ask because I, I imagine, you know, when, like if a woman were to bring this to the table of this, you know, this concentrated time to be able to discuss these generally, I think a man would more easily say or feel that this is a silly exercise.
01:05:25.820But since we're talking to men and every single person listening to this podcast wants to improve their relationship, they would not be listening if that weren't the case.
01:05:37.040Are there situations in which women feel threatened or feel it silly or shut down and are not receptive to these changes that a man might try to implement in his relationship?
01:05:51.360Yes. First of all, you want to be a woman's hero. You suggest let's read rolemate to soulmate and then watch the online course and do, and do this process together.
01:06:01.920Now this is going to end up benefiting you as much as it will her, but she'll be so most women will be so shocked that you as a man.
01:06:10.640Yes, this, this, this, and your, your, your points, so to speak, your reason, the respect for you, the, will go up just for making the suggestion.
01:06:21.360Um, and the, and what it ends up doing is it's definitely, um, it benefits both people in the relationship to feel that they aren't walking on eggshells.
01:06:33.120And that is, um, and men and women do that in different ways for different reasons, men and, men and, and gay relationships.
01:06:40.340Um, it's, there's, I have never experienced a gay couple that doesn't have the same problems basically of not feeling heard and, and so on.
01:06:50.040I'll show you, share one other, um, mindset with you, which is kind of fun, uh, that, that I have people, um, alter their, for their natural biological selves.
01:06:59.820Um, I have every couple, uh, sit, um, back to back, um, and, uh, write in a piece of paper, um, the answer to the following question.
01:07:09.600Um, make believe your partner's is your loved one is about to be killed in either, maybe let's say drowning or in a car accident.
01:07:17.820Um, and you know, with a hundred percent certainty that you can save her or his life, um, but you know, you sense in that tenth of a second that you have about a 50% chance of losing your own life in the process.
01:07:31.840Would you, and then they have three options.
01:07:40.200Now that is just to repeat that you're, you, you have a hundred percent that your partner is going to have a hundred percent chance of dying unless you interfere.
01:07:49.840But if you interfere, you'll have a hundred percent chance of saving their life, but you'll have a 50% chance of losing your own life.
01:08:24.880Remember about a quarter of the people in the workshop are considering divorcing.
01:08:29.160Some of them have even filed for divorce.
01:08:31.480So I was going to say, I would say a hundred, if I had to guess a hundred percent men and somewhere around 60 to 75% for women, that would be my guess.
01:08:48.740So it's a, it turns out usually that it's about 90% of the men and about 80% of the women, a little bit more, sometimes more, sometimes less than in both cases.
01:08:57.880So it's enough that, uh, so then, uh, the first, the second, the first mindset that I have them do is to, um, say, well, if I'm willing to risk my life dying for you, I guess the least I can do is listen to you.
01:09:14.120Um, and it's like, it puts listening to your partner, even if you wouldn't be willing to die, but maybe just lose an arm or a leg, or you'd have to give up your home or, you know, give up your favorite car.
01:09:29.420Um, you could, you know, do with that level.
01:09:31.940But if, if I'm willing to, you know, give you my car rather than have you be killed, um, would you be willing, you know, it's a lot easier to give you my, um, um, to, uh, if I'm willing to give you my car, the least I can do is listen to you.
01:10:05.000And, and, and more powerfully, when you see how much it means to each person to feel seen and heard.
01:10:14.980And when you begin to, there's a chapter in the book on how to create family dinner nights without creating family dinner nightmares.
01:10:22.200Once you master this with your partner, then I teach you how to master this, teach your children how to do this as well.
01:10:30.020When you, when your children know how to do this for their brother and their sister and for you, um, they, um, they, you've given them probably the greatest gift you could give a child.
01:10:41.120Um, aside from your overall love and attention, um, and that is the ability to not only have the skills to hear everybody else effectively, but also, um, to, uh, to empathize with everybody else.
01:10:58.720I teach, um, in that chapter on how to do a family dinner night without doing a family dinner nightmare.
01:11:04.800I teach parents how not just to empathize with children, but also to require the children to empathize with the parents and their perspectives.
01:11:16.520And, um, and the, because oftentimes parents that are very empathetic, but don't require the children to also be empathetic, do not create empathetic children.
01:11:27.800And they create self-centered children that are always used to being empathized with and never required to do empathy for, um, and so they're always the beneficiary of not the, not the, the gifter or whatever term you want to use.
01:11:41.540Yes. And I heard this initially from teachers that were shocked that on parent teacher night, some of the really empathetic kids in the class had teacher, uh, had parents that were required a lot of them, including to be heard by them.
01:11:56.140Um, and the, and the, and conversely that children that were, you know, very self-centered often had very empathetic parents that the teacher loved them on, on, on teacher parent night.
01:12:07.100Um, but it was, and then begin to piece that together that, that, you know, that one way empathy does not beget empathy.
01:12:14.400One way empathy begets self-centeredness.
01:12:30.260I know enough about it to be dangerous and ask some decent questions, but I'm actually really, really excited to dig into this for my own personal, uh, romantic relationship.
01:12:39.760And also for the relationship I have with my kids.
01:12:41.980And you also make the point, and I saw this, that this doesn't just apply to romantic relationships, but platonic relationships, professional relationships.
01:12:51.220So I'm very excited to dig into this book.
01:12:56.160Let's do, let's take that both deeper on what we were talking about.
01:12:59.940The, that caring and sharing time was only one of 23, uh, what I call love enhancements, all of which are unnatural, but all of which would really work.
01:13:08.780Um, one of them is called the conflict free zone, but then another is that once I teach people, couples have to do this with each other, I teach them how to do this with, um, family members that they love, but have political disagreements with, um, so to, to turn civil war into civil dialogue and, um, a whole series of things like that.
01:13:27.420So I'd be very happy to, to dig into those things with you again.
01:13:30.960You also talk about, um, I took some notes earlier today.
01:14:19.300When you get the book, you'll have a QR code, go to the course, do that course.
01:14:23.880With the person you love, the course, the online course will take you through all the practices.
01:14:29.740This, this book is about practices, um, that you and your partner will do that will really deepen your love.
01:14:38.180Um, and so reading it is very useful and it's broader and deeper than I can go in the online couples course.
01:14:46.340But, um, as I was saying before, um, when criticism appears, wisdom disappears.
01:14:52.200And when you only read something, when you don't practice it, um, it'll disappear a lot more quickly.
01:14:57.740You really have to retrain your mind to do things that are biologically unnatural, but, but, uh, emotionally extremely functional.
01:15:06.900Um, you know, um, you know, we, we weren't, we weren't trained to hear our enemy and lawyers weren't trained to listen carefully to the, um, uh, to the opposing attorney.
01:15:33.280Uh, he had said something in this clip that I heard just a day or two ago, and it coincides almost perfectly with what you're saying.
01:15:40.400He said that it's very important that couples carve out at least 90 minutes a week for specific discussion around relationships.
01:15:49.520And you're saying two hours correlates very closely to sort of have two well-versed, well-researched men that I highly respect talking about the same thing gives it even more weight.
01:16:01.300And I would also suggest too, if you're listening to this podcast and you feel intimidated about bringing this book to the table or the online course that you offer in addition to the book, just have your partner listen to this podcast because that might be enough for them to say, okay, maybe I am interested in doing the book and maybe I am interested in doing the course.
01:16:21.780If that's what you feel will help get that across the finish line for them.
01:16:25.840Um, Dr. Farrell, appreciate you, appreciate your work.
01:16:29.280Thank you as always for joining the podcast.
01:16:58.020I really respect the work that he's done.
01:17:00.960Um, I respect his own journey of, of self-discovery and, and maybe dancing on the, uh, what I would say the other side of the aisle a little bit, but, uh, also really just appreciate the fact that he can see and adjust and evolve and change his way of thinking.
01:17:18.780Which is something I try to do as well when I'm wrong.
01:17:21.320Uh, I try to change and evolve and grow and learn something new.
01:17:24.540And I think having somebody like Dr. Farrell on the podcast who sees it from all sides, all perspectives is invaluable.
01:17:31.520So if you would please support our guest, Dr. Warren Farrell, by picking up a copy of his book, rolemate to soulmate, or one of his other great works, which I recommend is the boy crisis.
01:17:41.480That's been instrumental, uh, not only in this movement, but in leading my own sons.
01:17:46.100So, uh, make sure you check out those also just take a screenshot on your phone right now, tag me, tag Dr. Farrell, uh, let people know who you're listening to post it up on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Tik TOK, et cetera, et cetera.
01:18:01.800Uh, and we are available on all of those platforms, Facebook, X, Instagram, all at Ryan Mickler and on Tik TOK at, at order of man.