Order of Man - DR. WARREN FARRELL ｜ The Dangers of Dad-Deprivation

00:00:00.000 I think whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not, we are most definitely facing a crisis

00:00:05.720 of our young men from incarceration and suicide rates to substance abuse issues to failing and

00:00:13.180 lagging societal metrics. It's safe and also extremely tragic to say that our boys are

00:00:19.520 fighting an uphill battle. My guest today is Dr. Warren Farrell, the author of The Boy Crisis

00:00:25.080 and many other books written to explore society from the lens of both women and men. Today,

00:00:33.800 we talk about the dangers of lacking structure and purpose, how the quote-unquote dad style versus

00:00:40.820 the quote-unquote mom style of parenting actually creates awareness and empathy, how dopamine

00:00:47.220 secretion and other physiological responses assist boys and men in doing the right thing,

00:00:52.660 and also the dangers and destructive results of dad deprivation. You're a man of action. You live

00:00:59.680 life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down,

00:01:05.160 you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient.

00:01:12.280 Strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:01:18.360 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:24.220 My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:30.100 Welcome here. Guys, the conversation I have today with Dr. Warren Farrell is one of my favorite

00:01:36.920 conversations. Anytime I get to talk about boys and young men and men and how we interact with and

00:01:43.460 show up in the world and how we can serve ourselves and our families and communities better,

00:01:46.920 I love it because that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about giving you the tools

00:01:51.620 and resources, conversations, et cetera, to help you become a more effective, capable man.

00:02:00.420 And isn't that what society needs? Isn't that what you want to be? And isn't that what people

00:02:06.120 need of you? So I'm going to get into it with Dr. Warren Farrell here in a minute. Before I do,

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00:03:56.720 Check out their hunt line. All right, guys, with that said, let's get to my friend and somebody,

00:04:02.880 man, I just deeply, deeply admire and respect this individual. His name is Dr. Warren Farrell.

00:04:08.940 He is the author of The Boy Crisis and many other books. His insight is, it's enlightening.

00:04:15.980 It's fascinating when it comes to the dangers of not only what our young men are facing, but then how

00:04:20.580 that translates into, to put it mildly, less than desirable outcomes for society as a whole.

00:04:27.480 He's been featured on CNN, Good Morning America, The New York Times, Forbes, Wall Street Journal,

00:04:34.100 and has proven to be an incredible, incredible resource for parents and the young men who seem

00:04:40.500 to be struggling so much. Again, in his book, The Boy Crisis, he lays it all out there with regards to

00:04:45.740 how our young men are struggling, and more importantly, what we as men can do about it.

00:04:50.740 Guys, I always enjoy my talks with Dr. Farrell and his incredible insight. I know you will as well.

00:04:59.280 Warren, it's so good to see you again. I was looking at it. We had a conversation,

00:05:03.800 believe it or not, it's almost been four years. I can't believe that it's, I thought it would have

00:05:10.080 been two, but I cannot believe that it's been four years since we had our initial conversation.

00:05:14.940 It's a sign of aging. The older you get, the shorter the period of time appears to be.

00:05:20.840 We were talking about trading some red with some gray. I think we can work something out here, but

00:05:25.440 a little bit still, a little bit of gray in there.

00:05:29.980 I don't see it yet, but it's really great. Your beard is admirable. Yeah, I think it was four years

00:05:37.020 ago because I know The Boy Crisis book came out about four years ago. So I think we, you did one of the

00:05:41.880 early interviews with me and you were in Utah, weren't you? Yeah, I was in Utah. We moved out

00:05:48.500 here to Maine about three years ago and it just, when we talked, it probably wasn't even on my radar

00:05:55.040 to come out here, but it's just been such a great thing for my wife and my three boys and my daughter

00:06:00.020 and we just love it. Oh, that's wonderful. How old are your boys now?

00:06:03.820 So I've got a, let me think, it's going to take me a second. I've got a 14-year-old,

00:06:09.560 an 11-year-old, my daughter is eight, almost nine, and then my youngest son is six. So I got a full

00:06:17.660 house over here. You have a full house. Well, and you will, and has The Boy Crisis book, has that been

00:06:24.300 helpful for you in raising your son? Oh, incredibly helpful. In fact, your book and some other

00:06:33.080 information that we have access to and books and things that we've read, we decided when we moved

00:06:38.600 out here that we would pull our children out of public school. So when we moved here now, so it's

00:06:45.040 been three years, about a year before COVID and the reaction to COVID, we decided that we would

00:06:49.540 homeschool our children for some very deliberate and intentional reasons. And I know you talk a lot

00:06:56.100 about the school system being stacked against our young men and set up for our young ladies.

00:07:01.500 And that coupled with some other thoughts that we had, my wife and I made the decision to pull our

00:07:07.020 kids out of public school and start homeschooling or home-based education.

00:07:11.220 And how has that been? How has that been for the development of the kids?

00:07:14.720 That's been great. I mean, it's been great. The beautiful thing about homeschool, and I talk a lot

00:07:18.820 about this with the guys is that instead of having 25, 30, 35 kids in the classroom, we have four.

00:07:25.860 We know them obviously intimately. My daughter is dyslexic. I didn't know that until we started

00:07:32.580 homeschooling. My wife would say the same thing. And then we can cater their experience and their

00:07:38.000 learning and education based on some aptitude that they may have for certain things versus others.

00:07:43.320 And so it's a beautiful... I don't have any problem with school teachers. I really have a problem with

00:07:48.940 the system in general that made us make that decision. It's been really good.

00:07:54.620 Oh, I'm very glad to hear that. How do you give them good social skill training, meeting other kids,

00:08:00.840 meeting strangers, meeting kids they don't like? How does that work in with homeschooling?

00:08:05.460 I'm... That's one of the biggest questions that we get. So they're very involved and active in

00:08:14.320 physical activity. So it's through powerlifting. My two oldest boys do powerlifting with about five to

00:08:20.620 six other young men in the community. My two oldest boys also play football. So they're very active in

00:08:27.400 football with their teams and whatnot. My daughter is very involved in dance. And then we have a very

00:08:32.340 tight-knit CrossFit community and friends that we spend a lot of time with. We invite them over.

00:08:37.460 We have barbecues and dinners and things together. And then we're actually working... This year will be

00:08:43.000 our first year with a co-op where there's five other families in the community who are all home-based

00:08:49.080 education, where they're going to be learning from other parents involved with other kids. Because

00:08:54.880 that was my biggest concern is how do you make sure they get the social interaction? And I really like

00:09:00.700 that you said kids they don't like. That's one of the things that I think a lot of people overlook

00:09:07.400 because that interpersonal dynamic is huge. And I think a lot of home-based education parents

00:09:13.460 overlook the importance of that. Yes. And it's important, you know, when you're homeschooling

00:09:20.040 somebody, you're almost always going to train your son and your daughters, but especially your sons,

00:09:24.580 not to be bullies. But it's all as important to make sure that they know how to handle bullies

00:09:30.320 and not just handle them by beating them up, but handle them by respecting the bullies need to be

00:09:37.040 respected. And understanding that under almost all anger and abusiveness is vulnerability. And so being

00:09:43.740 able to connect to that vulnerability. I remember in the Boy Crisis book, I think you may remember reading

00:09:50.120 where I said I learned that sort of almost intuitively as a kid and I was in about eighth grade and I had

00:09:57.680 moved over from another school district, another town to the town that we lived in. The town we lived

00:10:03.760 in was much more working class. The new town was much more working class. And I sort of stood out as a

00:10:09.920 student. And one of the boys really, who was a sort of gang leader, he really sort of thought of me as

00:10:17.760 being sort of the goody two shoes. And he confronted me one day and he had a brick in his hand. And he

00:10:24.480 was ready to throw that brick right through my head. And he just really basically wanted to get rid of

00:10:30.420 me. And I said to him, you know, that, you know, it was really great that he was the leader of this

00:10:38.500 gang. And because, you know, and what did I think, what did he think that the leadership skills that he

00:10:45.180 had, that led to him being selected as a leader and being able to sustain himself as a leader?

00:10:51.040 And he like started to get into that. And he told me what he thought his leadership skills were.

00:10:58.040 And as he did that, his brick just dropped and, you know, the hand dropped and then the brick just

00:11:04.520 dropped to the ground. And it was like, you know, I was and what I was and, you know, I didn't have,

00:11:10.460 you know, I hadn't read books like The Boy Crisis. And, you know, that told me here's a good way to

00:11:14.720 approach a bully. But, you know, it was sort of like, I guess it was a survival instinct that led

00:11:19.580 me to just reaching for that. And, you know, or else I may not have been around here today to talk

00:11:25.760 about it. Well, you know, it's interesting. I think this is where our past might diverge a little

00:11:30.760 bit, because when I hear you tell that story, my immediate reaction is, I would tell that guy,

00:11:37.140 you have one shot. And if you miss, you're dead. So it's a very interesting thing when you come at

00:11:43.800 at it from this perspective, which obviously worked, clearly worked. And there's so many

00:11:49.160 different ways to approach the situation. I'm always trying to figure out the balance between

00:11:55.260 toughness and assertiveness with my young men specifically, maybe more so than my daughter,

00:12:06.200 and the balance between that and tenderness and care and empathy, which I think is what you

00:12:12.060 exhibited here in this story you're sharing. Yes. And at the same, first of all, you've put your

00:12:17.260 finger now exactly on the biggest point that is a value, I think, which is the the word balance.

00:12:26.120 And it's having the skill sets to both be able to confront. And at the same time, the skill set to be

00:12:33.820 able to understand that bullies and bullies, the both the bully and the bullied, have in common,

00:12:42.840 oftentimes, low self-esteem, feelings of insecurity. And so it is interesting that the opposite behaviors

00:12:50.860 are manifested with the underlying similar personality characteristics. And so there's sort of two ways of

00:12:58.140 approaching sort of a bully, if you will. One is the way I just shared. And the other way, my father,

00:13:05.140 and this worked at a different time in my growing up, my father had always said, basically, you have

00:13:13.160 to stand up to a bully, just like you were just talking about, right, let it know that you just

00:13:17.100 can't be pushed around, and that you need to be respected, basically. And my father had taught me to

00:13:22.680 box and to wrestle. But in the eighth grade, in this school, also, that I just was talking about

00:13:29.000 moving to, there was another guy there that was a sort of muscle leader. And he had the same type,

00:13:34.500 he was a muscle builder. And he was very respected and absolutely gorgeous. And he was, you know,

00:13:42.360 very much known for being a bully. And my father had taught me both to box and to wrestle. And but I

00:13:49.420 knew I couldn't outbox this guy. So and he sort of kept confronting me and sort of sort of calling

00:13:55.600 me chicken to, you know, sort of encounter with him. And I did agree to wrestle with him. And my father

00:14:02.560 taught me well enough that I was able to pin him down in a few seconds. And when I had him pinned down,

00:14:09.640 he said, please let me up. I'll always support you. And I let him up. And two things happened there.

00:14:18.600 One is he did follow through. He always supported me after that. And B, what was the deepest sadness

00:14:25.600 for me is even though I was good in my schoolwork, etc, and generally decent in sports, the I got more

00:14:35.400 respect from my classmates from being able to pin him down than I did from anything else I did. And for

00:14:44.260 me, that was very, very sad. You know, that the respect came to me from being able to be somebody

00:14:53.260 who won at a wrestling match, rather than, you know, made contributions through being good at school or

00:15:00.060 somewhat decent in sports. I was not never a standout, but I was good at sports. And, and I had

00:15:07.140 started the soccer team in my school, etc. And yet that didn't command as much respect as, you know,

00:15:13.960 as, as this little wrestling match. And do you think, so a question on that, because I don't,

00:15:22.140 I don't disagree. I can certainly see why men will respect another man or young boy in this case with

00:15:31.020 some sort of physical aptitude. But as we get older, don't you think the same level of respect

00:15:36.500 would be commanded if you became the CEO of a fortune 500 company, or you were maybe a more

00:15:44.260 superficial metric would be you drive around a Lamborghini or you wear, you know, the $10,000

00:15:50.980 watch. Don't you think that the same level of respect would be granted on some other metrics that

00:15:57.620 might be a better metric of aptitude as you get older and more mature?

00:16:01.320 Yes. And I would say even the, those metrics are really sad metrics also, um, because, um,

00:16:09.640 for us to be evaluating for, for me to evaluate myself, um, on the, you know, on the Lamborghini,

00:16:17.260 which I do not have, or the other, you know, uh, equivalent measures, or even, you know,

00:16:25.640 oh, this is Warren Farrell. He wrote X number of books and right. New York times, bestselling

00:16:30.120 authors, these sort of titles, right? Yes, exactly. And, you know, um, and, and I hope

00:16:36.420 that as the more mature I become, um, that the more I look for, um, respecting people who

00:16:45.060 can listen, who can not be concerned with themselves, who can not be focused on what

00:16:50.980 type of home they have. And, and, you know, you want to live in a nice home in a nice place,

00:16:55.620 but that not, that should not be our definition of ourselves, how well you're raising your

00:17:01.580 children, uh, your devotion to them in homeschooling, the way you communicate with your wife,

00:17:06.560 the way you, you're here, you listen to your wife. Um, and the, the way, um, you, um, give space

00:17:14.520 to each of your kids to speak up and share what's inside of them. Um, as you know, in the boy crisis

00:17:19.180 book, I have a whole section on family dinner night, and particularly on how to prevent family

00:17:23.880 dinner nights from becoming family dinner nightmares. And, you know, and one of the important

00:17:28.780 things about family dinner nights is not only teaching the parents how to listen to the kids

00:17:33.160 and be empathetic with the kids stories and not interrupt the kids stories, but also making

00:17:38.440 sure that the kids are required to listen to the parents stories as parents versions and

00:17:44.420 not interrupt the, the, um, uh, the parents stories. One of the ways to make sure that children

00:17:50.740 are not empathetic is to always be empathetic toward the children, as opposed to both being

00:18:00.400 empathetic toward the children and also requiring the children to be able to demonstrate empathy

00:18:06.860 toward the parents and to their brothers and sisters. So you have to allow them the opportunity

00:18:12.140 to be empathetic is what you're saying. And more so than even allow, allow them the opportunity

00:18:18.500 to be would be ideal. Most kids when they're younger do not pursue that opportunity. They have to be

00:18:27.240 required to develop the discipline, to move from a self-centered space, uh, to a balance between

00:18:34.080 self-centered and other centered space. Interesting. Required versus allowed. That's interesting because

00:18:41.060 I see a lot of this manifest itself in society today. And I think it started with the whole,

00:18:48.380 you know, the, the, the phrase we all hear. And, and this may be more indicative of when you were

00:18:52.400 younger, cause you're a bit older than I am is, you know, kids should be seen and not heard. No,

00:18:57.160 no, no, of course. Right. And then you graduate to this newer age version of parenting, which is where

00:19:05.480 no kids now can dictate their gender and they can dictate what time they should go to bed and what

00:19:12.440 activities they should be involved in. And I think both are opposite ends of the extremes,

00:19:17.100 the spectrum. And, and I don't think either are correct. I would, I have three perspectives on that.

00:19:24.720 Yes. Yes. And yes. So totally agree with you. Um, and, and it really is, um, you know, we've,

00:19:32.240 we've jumped from one extreme to the other and both extremes are really very damaging to the

00:19:36.800 children. Hmm. I'm very curious about this, uh, this way that young boys approach their self-esteem

00:19:47.800 issues. You said it manifests itself. And I, and I'm sure again, there's a spectrum, but it manifests

00:19:53.400 itself potentially as the weak link, right? The coward who's timid and passive and lets himself get

00:20:00.720 railroaded. And then you have the bully who asserts himself and attempts to dominate not through

00:20:05.340 capability, but through intimidation. Is that a nature thing that more young men are designed to act

00:20:15.140 one way or the other? Or is that something that's nurtured through their environment, through parenting

00:20:21.040 or lack thereof and exposure to other stimulus that makes them behave one way or the other?

00:20:25.900 The answer to that is yes. Meaning it's, it's, it's nature and nurture, um, combined. Um, and you

00:20:33.520 know, if, if I were to get percentages about 70% nature and about 70% nurture, meaning that it's so

00:20:39.520 inter that, that as you, you know, as you, you're a veteran. And so, you know, as you trained in the

00:20:46.360 military, um, even if you went into the military and you were over protected, which you probably

00:20:52.240 weren't, but as you know, many people in the military, um, um, chill boys who have a single

00:20:59.340 mothers, um, they have a higher percentage chance of joining the military than any other single, um,

00:21:05.440 uh, parenting, parenting group. And that's actually, yes. And that's actually quite useful because

00:21:11.080 oftentimes the single mothers, um, um, do not do as much boundary enforcement as, um, they, as

00:21:18.620 the children would have, if they had both fathers and mothers, um, and an active father, which

00:21:24.820 usually, who usually requires more boundary enforcement. So the, both the child, but both

00:21:29.960 the boy and the pair and the mother sort of sense that the boy needs structure and, um, and is,

00:21:36.560 and is without it. And the military, as you know, creates that structure. So the boy going into the

00:21:43.620 military and it also creates requirements. So you, you know, you weren't given the option of, um, you

00:21:51.200 know, of, of doing, uh, getting up at a certain time, doing certain things, uh, running certain

00:21:56.720 paths, you know, uh, training in certain ways you were required to do that. And as you're required

00:22:02.160 to do that, different synapses develop in your brain, uh, that begin to change what you would think

00:22:08.920 of as nature. Um, but it's, it's, it's in our nature to be able to adapt to social, um, to social

00:22:16.880 messages. That's why it's 70% nature and 70% nurture. Um, one of the things along those lines

00:22:23.520 that is fascinating is that, you know, many people think of mothers as being more biologically

00:22:29.180 oriented toward raising children, uh, than dads are. Um, but children raised by dads, um, and well,

00:22:37.040 children raised by dads and moms together tend to do the best on average, but children raised by

00:22:42.560 fathers only do, um, better than children raised by mothers only. And what, what do you mean by do

00:22:49.400 the best? What, when you say do the best, what metrics are we mentioning? We're talking about,

00:22:55.660 um, having postponed gratification, which is the biggest, um, predictor of success or failure,

00:23:01.420 uh, being able to have discipline, being able to have, um, a warm and open and loving personality

00:23:08.120 that other people can connect with, being able to listen, being able to have social skills. So for

00:23:13.180 example, um, to be concrete about it, um, a typical, uh, one, I, one of the things that I found that

00:23:20.040 when I did the research for the boy crisis that I found was in no parenting magazine and no other

00:23:25.220 parenting book was helping parents understand the difference between what I came to call mom-style

00:23:31.720 parenting and dad-style parenting. And mom-style parenting tends to be more identifying the

00:23:37.940 children's strong points, helping the children, um, feel, um, proud of themselves because they're a

00:23:45.060 good singer or they have a good basketball skills or, you know, or they're a good scholar or whatever

00:23:49.640 and encouraging, encouraging them to sort of pursue that. And, you know, sweetie, you want to be an

00:23:55.620 Olympic gymnast, like you just saw, um, um, you know, uh, Simon, uh, Simona Biles, uh, be, um, yes,

00:24:02.480 you can, you can do that. That's fine. Um, but then oftentimes the children will start to do that and

00:24:07.860 they'll get a tutor and, uh, but they won't follow through. They'll get distracted by a new video game

00:24:13.780 if they're a male in particular, or, um, in a social engagement or somebody's birthday party,

00:24:18.420 and they're not putting in the discipline to go there. Dads are more likely to sort of require,

00:24:23.480 say, yo, listen, you want to be a best, an NBA player, or you want to be an actor or a writer

00:24:28.580 or whatever. Um, or you want to be in the Olympics, you've got to focus on that. And if we're going to

00:24:33.600 take you to practice, and if we're going to make our investment in your time, then you've got to

00:24:39.000 return that. Um, we're, you know, we're working overtime to be able to pay for a tutor to make sure

00:24:44.480 that you're, or a coach to get you to be better at this, this, like you want your dream

00:24:48.360 is, uh, that requires something from you. And moms will often say some version of, well, sweetie,

00:24:54.340 you're being a little tough on, you know, um, Mary or John, they, you know, it's good for them

00:24:58.660 to go to their, their part, um, somebody's birthday party. And he says, I agree that it's good for them

00:25:04.300 to go to somebody's birthday party, but they're not going to become an Olympic gymnast if they're

00:25:09.480 going to a lot of birthday parties, because the people who are Olympic gymnasts are ones that are

00:25:13.620 focused only on that. And they make a trade-off. They give up a lot of the rest of their life

00:25:18.320 for that. And that trade-off is not necessarily healthy, but let's make a decision here. Do we

00:25:24.900 want to go for something? And, um, and you know, what level do we want to go for this at? And so

00:25:30.340 it's this type of dialogue or another example that's, I think a better example is typically speaking,

00:25:36.860 um, dads will be far more likely to rough house than moms will be. Um, you know, and the dad will

00:25:42.900 start the rough housing with the kids. Like you have three boys and a girl, right? Is that correct?

00:25:46.920 That's correct. Right. Yeah. And you might throw all three boys and the girl on the couch and, um,

00:25:52.940 and, and say, all right, the game here is to, you know, the four of you, um, you could try to pin me

00:25:57.960 down before I pin the four of you down. And, um, and the kids go, yeah, right. All right. That's a great

00:26:03.500 dad. And, you know, mom was looking on and saying, oh my God, I feel like I have just one more child

00:26:07.780 to monitor. Um, you know, and husband, our home, Dr. Literally in our home. And, um, and the, and the,

00:26:17.320 and the mom is saying to herself, okay, you know, but the kids seem to be having a lot of fun. Um,

00:26:22.460 I don't want to be controlling. I don't want to interfere too much. On the other hand, I just fear

00:26:27.000 that, um, somebody is going to get hurt sooner or later and sooner or later, she's about 99% likely

00:26:33.380 to be right. Somebody's going to get hurt. Of course, of course it's going to happen.

00:26:37.380 And, and then she's, she says to herself, no, I feel really guilty. I didn't interfere before

00:26:42.280 and prevent this from, um, from somebody getting hurt. On the other hand, at least now Ryan's

00:26:46.860 going to understand, uh, that he can't do this, um, because somebody is going to get hurt. But Ryan

00:26:51.380 doesn't understand that or he doesn't look at it that way. He says, you know, um, uh, Jimmy or, uh,

00:26:57.040 whatever one of your son's name is. Yeah. You can't stick your, um, elbow in Kathy's eye.

00:27:02.660 That's what I was thinking. Well, you shouldn't have done that. Do better next time.

00:27:05.700 Exactly. And the kids will say, yes, yes, dad, I'm sorry. No problem. I'll do better. But the next

00:27:10.360 time they don't do that much better because you've only told them to do better. There was no price to

00:27:17.320 pay if they didn't. So why do they adapt or postpone gratification if there's no price to pay by just

00:27:24.800 pushing sister or brother aside. But when most dads, the second time after the children are

00:27:31.460 warned, they, they say, okay, I gave you a warning. Now there's no more roughhousing. Now the next time

00:27:39.400 you roughhouse. And then, so dad goes ahead and says, okay, well, you know, no roughhousing tonight,

00:27:44.500 maybe tomorrow night or the next night we'll roughhouse. And mom was looking on going, oh my

00:27:48.000 God, you know, hasn't he learned his lesson after twice the kids have gotten hurt. But the, but the

00:27:53.500 important difference between dad and mom style parenting happens the third time. And that third

00:27:59.560 time, the children now know that the last time daddy said that there, if they, if they were too

00:28:06.680 aggressive or too rough, uh, they're going to lose their roughhousing. The last time daddy said that

00:28:12.520 we lost our roughhousing when we were that way. And it's now that the kids get their beginning, their

00:28:20.100 first step in postponed gratification. I want to push my brother or sister aside, but if I do that, I'm

00:28:28.180 going to lose what I really want. Um, so I have to postpone the gratification of winning immediately in a

00:28:35.700 way that is too aggressive or too unsympathetic to the children that my brothers and sisters

00:28:42.160 needs. Um, and I have to focus on doing what I need to do to get that, uh, roughhousing,

00:28:49.760 the roughhousing that we all want. Um, and so this is so, this is so, uh, one of the common

00:28:56.360 phrases I hear a lot and that's specifically directed towards the government. I think in

00:29:00.160 general is the PSYOP, right? This is a PSYOP against the American people, but, but I'm kind of

00:29:06.680 hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, that there's a PSYOP with, with our children too. And we

00:29:11.820 need to be aware of the game that's being played and what they're being taught outside of just the

00:29:16.400 words that we're using and the behaviors that we're trying to mold.

00:29:21.380 Exactly. And so here's the, the, that exactly what happens with that dynamic. So now the, you have

00:29:30.060 said this new dynamic of, you can't be aggressive and you have to think of your brothers and sisters

00:29:35.320 needs. And the kids are, are now saying, I'm going to, I know I'm going to lose my roughhousing if I'm

00:29:42.120 that aggressive. So I'm going to stop and I'm not going to be that aggressive. I'm going to think of

00:29:46.560 my brothers and sisters needs. Now, a number of things are happening here. The kids are, um, are,

00:29:52.100 are understanding that they have to have the postponed gratification. They also have to think of

00:29:57.720 their brothers and sisters needs. And what the data shows is that children who do this are now

00:30:04.780 required to think of their brothers and sisters needs in order to get what they want. So empathy

00:30:11.660 becomes a selfish, uh, it's in their self-interest to become empathetic. It's in their self-interest

00:30:19.100 to not be too aggressive. Um, do you think though, that when, so I wrote this question down and I know

00:30:25.540 I keep interrupting you, that's because I have a thousand questions. I've got some, I have more

00:30:29.360 questions than we have time for. So I wrote down here, putting the needs of others above our own.

00:30:34.600 So I'm hearing you say that that's a learned trait. Do you think that there's any sort of inherent

00:30:40.640 nature in putting other people's needs above our own or is that entirely learned?

00:30:47.680 It's learned. And it's also, once it's learned, there's something in our nature, which is the RCZ,

00:30:53.780 the rostral cingulate zone of our brain, that when we do something like think of others,

00:31:00.820 others give us positive feedback and that positive feedback increases the feel good drug dopamine

00:31:06.500 in our brain. And this is why I say everything is nature and nurture. It is, we have evolved over

00:31:13.960 millions of years. And if you take it back to, you know, to the evolution at the beginning,

00:31:19.060 we're talking about probably billions of years of evolution to have this enormously sophisticated

00:31:24.940 system of being able to know how to survive and to know how to survive, we had to get along with

00:31:32.580 others. The people that didn't, they usually were defeated by being too divided.

00:31:39.780 And so,

00:31:40.000 So, can I share a personal story on that?

00:31:42.600 Absolutely.

00:31:43.520 The reason I ask this is because I've been actually thinking about this today. So,

00:31:47.840 about three or four hours ago, I was sitting in my office and I was sending out emails and I heard

00:31:54.280 a crash outside of our home on the corner. The corner that we live on happens to be a pretty

00:31:58.760 dangerous intersection. I heard a crash. I knew the distinct sound. I knew exactly what had happened.

00:32:02.800 So, I ran out and I told my kids, stay here, son, you call 911. I got to run out here and do this.

00:32:08.360 And I ran out and I saw this little blue sedan that had probably traveled 40 yards after it had

00:32:16.420 gotten hit. And there was a young woman in the driver's side of the vehicle. And so,

00:32:24.800 I ran over there. I was barefoot because I just came out. I ran over there and she was bleeding

00:32:29.080 from her head and she was such, it's stuck with me for about four or five hours now. It's pretty

00:32:35.520 touching actually. Just a sweet young woman. She was probably in her late teens, early 20s. I could

00:32:42.640 tell she had a backpack and some other things. So, I think she was probably a student at the college

00:32:46.580 here. And she was bleeding from her head and just red blood had just drenched her top, a white striped

00:32:56.300 shirt that she was wearing. And, oh, I just had this, like, I just felt so bad. And so, I grabbed

00:33:05.100 some napkins. I threw them on her head. I applied pressure. I asked her what her name was. I asked

00:33:09.280 her if she was okay. And her biggest concern was, did I break the rules? That's one thing she said.

00:33:16.020 Did I break the rules of driving? I'm like, I don't know. I didn't see it, but we're going to get you

00:33:20.320 taken care of. And she's fine. She had a couple of minor lacerations on her head. She's fine.

00:33:25.480 And I thought to myself, well, you know, like I did that because that's the right thing to do.

00:33:30.660 That's what we do. That's the right thing to do. But now as you're saying this,

00:33:35.940 maybe it's not that I did it because it's the right thing to do. Maybe I did it because I feel

00:33:41.700 really good about my ability to do so. And so, maybe it's, and I'm not saying this in a bad way,

00:33:50.780 but maybe there's some selfish reasons behind it. And it's that dopamine hit or whatever it is in

00:33:57.080 our chemical makeup that makes us do what I think we all objectively would agree is the right thing to

00:34:04.000 do. Yeah, no, that's absolutely the case. And, and if you, especially if you are trained, if you are

00:34:11.680 trained to look at it that way, and you know, it's, there's a, the way we're, if we're always trained

00:34:18.600 to just think of ourselves, then we don't get the dopamine hits from doing things for others. So we

00:34:25.040 don't have that experience of being looking forward to the dopamine hits by doing something for others.

00:34:31.080 And so part of what the military does for, for, for men is to say that, you know, that it's a training

00:34:39.460 to be, to allow yourself to know that even being completely disposable, being completely dead,

00:34:48.180 you are, that you have, you have served, that you've done something for others. And that's,

00:34:54.280 that's even worth your life. And I mean, it's one of the reasons why, you know, and so that begins

00:35:01.040 to get programmed into you. And it also, these things lead to other fascinating dynamics between

00:35:08.700 moms and dads. We were talking before about the roughhousing and, and, and, you know, and you're,

00:35:13.680 you mentioned something about, you know, that when you say something like that, that dad, that the

00:35:20.860 children oftentimes obey, or maybe I suggested that, I don't know. And, but moms will oftentimes

00:35:27.140 looking at this, that situation of, you know, you, you say, okay, you can't be too aggressive now

00:35:32.480 and you're, you can't, you know, do this to your brother or your sister. And moms will often look on

00:35:37.620 and say, after this has developed, the relationship has developed with your kids. I don't get this.

00:35:43.080 I tell the kids the same thing that Ryan tells the kids, but they respond to me better. I don't know

00:35:50.940 whether it's his deeper voice or he's bigger or what the story is, but it's, but what the findings

00:35:56.520 show is that it's not Ryan's deeper voice or that he's bigger. That is that, that, that when you tell

00:36:03.500 kids to behave a certain way, and there's no consequence, if they don't behave that way, or you

00:36:10.060 suggest a consequence, but then you give them another chance and another chance. The kids will keep

00:36:15.220 taking that other chance until they exhaust, exhaust the, the energy of the mom. And then the mom will

00:36:21.920 oftentimes, so, so that there's no downside in not paying attention to the mom. There is a downside

00:36:29.660 in not paying attention to the dad when dad is a good boundary enforcer. Now, sometimes, sometimes this

00:36:34.960 is reversed. The mom is the boundary enforcer and the dad isn't. And sometimes both are good boundary

00:36:40.360 enforcers and sometimes both are bad boundary enforcers. But as a rule, this is the, this is a

00:36:46.920 difference in what I call dad style parenting and mom style parenting. And so what I started talking

00:36:52.200 about in the boy crisis book is all those differences and all the misunderstandings between

00:36:59.020 moms and dads that come from not understanding those differences. And then once you understand those

00:37:05.740 differences, how to do what leads children to having the best upbringing, which is not to do dad style

00:37:12.540 parenting or mom style parenting only, but to do checks and balance parenting and checks and balance

00:37:18.300 parenting requires really good communication and respect from the mom about dad style parenting and

00:37:24.580 its contribution and from the dad about mom style parenting and its respective contribution. And so that

00:37:30.860 is, and so that is a core part of the boy crisis book is how to communicate the best intent. But most dads

00:37:40.780 don't know that they can say to moms, you know, the data shows that when I require the children to think of

00:37:48.900 their brothers and sisters needs, and to be assertive, but not aggressive, those children grow up more

00:37:55.280 empathetic, and they grow up more assertive, but not aggressive. And therefore, as a result of that,

00:38:01.200 they have more friends at school, because they have social skills. And the more friends at school

00:38:05.660 they have, the more less likely they are to be depressed. And, and the more motivated they are to be

00:38:11.320 good to go to school and to study well, and so on. And all of these things are connected. And when boys and

00:38:17.340 girls don't have these, particularly boys that don't have good social skills, they oftentimes become

00:38:23.360 depressed and withdraw into video games, and then become addicted to the video games, which only

00:38:28.580 makes them feel more like a player in the video games and less like a player of being able to have

00:38:34.440 nuanced social interaction in school.

00:38:39.040 Men, let me pull you away from the conversation very quickly. Obviously, we've been talking a lot

00:38:43.400 about how to serve our young men. And I can't think of a better way to do that than to have an engaged,

00:38:49.980 present father in the home. We address that in this conversation. And one of the primary roles

00:38:55.820 of a father is to introduce his son to experiences that are going to last a lifetime and ultimately

00:39:02.240 serve him well as he transitions from boy to man. And that's where the legacy experience comes in.

00:39:09.160 We've taken time tested and proven models throughout the history of mankind, and we've emulated and

00:39:16.260 extracted and built the lessons, the experiences, and ultimately the results that will unequivocally

00:39:23.660 serve your boys as they become men. Now, I just talked with our event coordinator, Chris Gatchko

00:39:27.840 yesterday, and we only have two spots remaining for our legacy. Well, our only legacy event of the

00:39:34.380 year, which is September 22nd through the 25th. So if you have a son between the ages of eight to 15,

00:39:40.220 you need to lock in one of those last two spots, September 22nd through the 25th, 2022. If you want

00:39:48.720 to learn more, you want to watch a video from our last experience, and you want to lock that in,

00:39:53.160 head to order of man.com slash legacy, order of man.com slash legacy. Do that now, or do that right

00:39:59.460 after the show. For now, let's get back to it with Dr. Farrell.

00:40:02.000 You're telling my, you are telling my story. You are telling my, I feel so selfish because all these

00:40:11.260 questions I have are directed for me. You know, let me just, let me just share. I, so my mother

00:40:17.780 primarily raised me and my sister on my own. I joined the military to your, to your statistic

00:40:24.540 earlier. She actually forced me to go play football. I wanted to play football and she said no,

00:40:30.840 because she was concerned. And two years later, she said, no, you actually have to go play football.

00:40:34.980 And I didn't want to, but she forced me to. Uh, and just this idea of social

00:40:45.340 intelligence maybe is, is the word I, I didn't have that. My friends when I was younger called me

00:40:53.480 the hermit. I was the hermit because I didn't go out because I didn't feel confident in spending time

00:40:59.560 with other boys. I had a hard time relating with other boys. Uh, and, and I've since learned,

00:41:03.940 you know, I've had to learn and develop those skills and I know that they are learned. And so

00:41:07.120 I have been able to, um, but oh my goodness, you are telling my story. This is unbelievable.

00:41:13.960 I'm, I'm, I'm very glad. Um, um, you know, it's, it's been such a joy to, um, I guess one of the

00:41:21.120 biggest joys happened recently when, uh, about six months ago or so along the lines of what we're

00:41:26.440 talking about when, um, somebody wrote to me and said that, um, that he had, um, joined, uh, he had

00:41:34.700 been raised by a single mom and, um, who was very devoted to making him happy. Um, and, um, he ended

00:41:43.380 up becoming addicted to video games and not even knowing himself as a human being, um, and began to

00:41:49.940 resent his mom because, um, she felt, um, he was, she wasn't, he wasn't being helped by her and the

00:41:57.000 antagonism between him and his mom became so great that he ended up living then with his aunts and

00:42:02.540 his grandmothers and none of them had men in their lives. Um, and so he felt like he didn't really know

00:42:08.060 how to become a man. And he had two things that he pointed out. He said, I felt I had no structure

00:42:13.680 and I had no purpose. Um, so he said, um, I ended up joining eight Chan, uh, which is a fascist

00:42:21.920 ideological group. Um, and he said there, I found structure and I found purpose. I felt like I had a,

00:42:28.460 could have an ideology that would be, um, you know, that would be superior to any other ideology I'd ever

00:42:34.020 heard of. And these people were all, you know, searching for structure like I was. And he said,

00:42:39.900 so, and they, and eight Chan had, um, nurtured two of the major mass, um, shooters, uh, that the world

00:42:46.740 has known, unfortunately. And, um, he said, so I drew up a 52 page manifesto to carry out my own mass

00:42:55.500 shooting, uh, to show the world that I was somebody that should needed to be reckoned with and paid

00:43:00.040 attention to. Wow. And he said, uh, then I don't know how I did this, but I ran across the boy crisis

00:43:06.580 book and I read it. And when I was reading it, it wasn't so much the data that was important to me,

00:43:13.520 but it felt like, um, what you just said a minute ago, like, like I was a spy in his home. He said that

00:43:21.160 you saw everything I was doing and saying and feeling and fearing that I hadn't been able to put words

00:43:27.780 to. And as, and when I finished reading that and feeling understood and having compassion toward what,

00:43:34.300 who I am, I lost the, that extra anger that it took to carry out the mass shooting. And so I was

00:43:43.740 able to then go to a couple of psychologists and a psychiatrist, one for medication and one for sort

00:43:49.300 of social help. And, um, and I want to write you and say, thank you because the boy crisis, as a result

00:43:56.880 of that, um, I, I saved my own life and save the life, uh, and indirectly you save the life of, um,

00:44:04.100 countless other, um, or spared, right? What, um, so you said with that young, I'm assuming he's a young

00:44:12.960 man, what you said that he wanted to be paid attention to. He probably wanted to be significant

00:44:19.220 in some way. It's very hard personally for me to wrap my head around this idea, but we see these mass

00:44:24.380 shootings and they're always perpetuated by young men. A lot of them lack father structures, uh,

00:44:30.160 whether it's their biological father or a father figure. Uh, a lot of them are addicted to some of

00:44:36.720 these drugs that are mainlined in their veins. And, and we don't quite know all the ramifications of

00:44:41.260 that. Do you find that that's a common theme or thread that they want to be seen? That's hard for

00:44:48.500 me to imagine, but I can't help. I can't deny that that seems to be a common thread.

00:44:55.080 Yes, um, I do. That's exactly what he said to me, but, um, looking at it in a bigger picture

00:45:01.220 framework, um, the, there has been six mass, um, school shooters in the 21st century that have killed

00:45:09.000 10 or more people, um, uh, actually seven. And we know the family backgrounds of six of them.

00:45:15.460 And of those six that we know the family backgrounds for every single one of them has, um, had, has been,

00:45:22.780 uh, deprived, what I call dad deprived, deprived of a significant involvement of it, of the biological

00:45:30.300 father. Unfortunately, the biological father is more important than the stepfather. The stepfather

00:45:36.060 can be very helpful. We can, I'd be happy to dig into how the stepfather can be helpful and what

00:45:41.480 usually prevents the stepfather from being helpful, but, um, it was the biology, it was the absence of

00:45:47.660 the biological father. That was, that was, um, uh, the factor in all those cases, the mother, the,

00:45:53.900 the boy lived with the mother and usually had an antagonistic relationship with the mother,

00:45:59.480 and then was sometimes passed on to a grandmother or an aunt, just like this boy in Uvalde. This is all

00:46:05.740 true of the boy in the last big mass shooter in Uvalde, Texas. Um, and so these, um, and so this is,

00:46:14.920 uh, and what, what, so the boy doesn't feel like he has a father creating that postponed gratification

00:46:24.220 that gives him the discipline, um, to be able to do the things he really wants to do. So I am now

00:46:31.220 communicating back and forth on zoom with this, with this, um, this potential mass shooter who is

00:46:38.360 fortunately averted. And, you know, part of what he had at the very beginning was an enormous amount of

00:46:45.060 anger toward his mom. And so I asked him to role play his mom and what her bet, what her intent was.

00:46:52.720 And when he role played his mom, he said, um, you know, he, he expressed his enormous anger toward

00:46:59.760 his mom, uh, for just letting him, um, play these video games all the time and never learning how to

00:47:05.940 be a human being in the world. And so he said to his mom, why did you do this to me? So I asked him

00:47:11.880 to role play his mom, make believe he was his mom. And she, he said as his mom, uh, because you seemed

00:47:18.600 so happy then. Um, and when I wanted you to be happy and I love you and, you know, and, and this

00:47:25.560 is the only thing that seemed to make you happy. So I didn't want to take this away from you.

00:47:29.900 And when he began to really get into that, he began to see that his mom's best intent

00:47:35.540 was his love for him, even though she didn't do what he was needed, um, to do what he needed would

00:47:44.400 have made him unhappy. Um, and so she didn't want to make him unhappy in that, um, in that desire to

00:47:52.340 give him immediate gratification. She didn't help him get the structure and the postponed gratification

00:47:58.020 that he needed from being outside of his comfort zone of being just one more figure in the video

00:48:04.360 games. I do want to talk about a couple of things. Stepfathers. I also want to talk about how to help

00:48:11.280 encourage or lead, uh, your wife, uh, when maybe she doesn't see the importance of your role as a man

00:48:20.560 in it, but when you, when you bring it up as a mother's love. And I think generally speaking,

00:48:25.960 that's probably true. What then is a woman's role in the development specifically? Let's talk about

00:48:35.420 young men. What is her role? It's just that you come from a very interesting perspective where

00:48:41.180 you, you, you spent a lot of time in the feminist movement. You spent a lot of time

00:48:45.460 with women's issues. And then more recently have spent a lot of time with focusing on young men and

00:48:52.880 the crisis of boys and masculinity in general. And so I love this perspective. I'm curious what

00:48:58.420 you believe to be the role of a mother in that dynamic of raising the boys.

00:49:05.060 Yes. Well, the boys definitely benefit from mother involvement and sort of being able to sort of,

00:49:12.220 uh, be, um, be seen by their moms for their best talents and being nurtured and having those talents

00:49:20.260 pointed out and having moms brag on them. Um, and, uh, and, and just knowing that, um, in a mom's,

00:49:26.580 um, space, they can, they feel they can say anything to the mom, uh, or the mom at least

00:49:31.840 facilitates them saying anything and, um, and always has their best interests at heart. And is usually

00:49:37.500 concerned about, you know, is, is right there to prepare a meal is to, to make sure that he has the

00:49:42.740 right clothes to wear to school and things like that. Moms contribute so much, uh, including love.

00:49:47.680 Um, but one, how does that counter though, with the 60s version of feminism and the third wave

00:49:56.860 version of feminism? Cause you just said to cook him a meal, to make sure he has the clothes. I think

00:50:01.720 that's a traditionally held notion of femininity and motherhood, but how does that juxtapose with

00:50:07.700 today's perspective of a mother and her role either in the home or community or workforce?

00:50:15.400 Yes. If she's, you know, if she's involved, first of all, it really children that do best

00:50:21.140 do have two highly involved parents. And so, uh, and men and women have a lot of flexibility and

00:50:29.740 fluidity in their, in their, in their roles. And you can have a father raise the children and do the

00:50:37.460 cooking and the, and, and so on. But statistically speaking, men and women are very flexible until they

00:50:44.260 have children. And as they have children, the overwhelm of the responsibilities usually leads

00:50:50.920 to the children, to, to moms being more likely to be in the, uh, involved with the children at home

00:50:57.600 and dads being more likely to go to the workplace. Now that's not an ad, that's not an advocacy on my

00:51:02.880 part because I actually, because children that are raised predominantly by dads do extremely well.

00:51:09.500 And one of the reasons why children raised predominantly by dads do extremely well is

00:51:13.860 because when moms raise children predominantly in the traditional sense, dads sometimes try to supply

00:51:19.640 the money. And in the process of supplying the money, they oftentimes don't pay as much attention

00:51:24.480 to the children as, as would be optimal for the children. Whereas when-

00:51:28.700 I also imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that if a dad, if it's the dad, that's primarily raising the

00:51:33.980 children that they are by default of our current societal norms going to be exposed to women,

00:51:41.920 whether it's through the public school system or grandma's around. But if you take dad out of the

00:51:48.340 picture, the likelihood of that child, son or daughter being exposed to a fixture, a masculine

00:51:55.800 manly fixture is significantly less than the default of them being exposed to women in education

00:52:01.580 or women in some sort of nurturing role. That's exactly correct. And also to start that's correct

00:52:08.660 at every level. So the first level is that when the dad is the primary breadwinner, oftentimes in

00:52:18.720 order to be able to support the family, especially you have four children to be able to support them

00:52:22.960 in a loving way. If the dad is the primary breadwinner, the mom is largely at home taking care of the

00:52:28.060 children. The dad often keeps accepting jobs to take more and more responsibility, which take him

00:52:33.660 more and more away from home. And also like if he's a salesperson locally, when they were, when they

00:52:38.820 were single and now they have four children, he will oftentimes accept responsibilities to be that

00:52:43.800 salesperson nationally. And so that will take him away from home for weekends and so on. And whereas

00:52:49.560 the mom is less likely to be willing to take those jobs that take her away nationally. And so she can be

00:52:58.100 there for the children's recital, she can be there for the children's birthday party and so on. And so

00:53:03.640 there's a tendency for when the mother is the primary caretaker for the children not to have as much of

00:53:12.620 dad as they need. Whereas when the dad is the primary caretaker, mom is more likely to still

00:53:18.780 remain involved and not take job responsibilities that lead her to break the glass ceiling, but be

00:53:27.580 away from the children too often. And it's one of the reasons why women who are mothers very rarely

00:53:33.160 break glass ceilings unless they have a full-time dad taking care of the children, or they have a full-time

00:53:40.240 nanny, but the children raised by full-time nannies as opposed to full-time dads do not tend to do as

00:53:46.820 well or feel as loved and secure as the children raised by a combination of dad and mom.

00:53:54.060 So tough question, potentially politically incorrect. What would you then suggest to a man who is looking for

00:54:04.900 a lifelong partner and a female? What do the statistics say about a woman who would like to be

00:54:12.320 in the career and pursue a career versus a woman who would like to pursue being a homemaker and finds

00:54:20.320 value in being at home and raising her children and potentially homeschooling her children and that

00:54:24.460 sort of thing? Does that have the play on who we should look to to partner with?

00:54:30.080 Yes. And it depends on who's, rather than it be the traditional way of, you know, of have mom be

00:54:38.180 homemaker and dad be breadwinner. One of the things that we really need to work with our daughters on

00:54:44.140 is to understand that if she wants to be a have-it-all woman, if she wants to break glass

00:54:49.480 ceilings, if she wants to, if she's motivated by her career and those types of challenges, and she also

00:54:57.180 wants to have a happy marriage, a happy marriage, and also have children that are raised well,

00:55:03.480 then what she needs to look for is a man whose propensities are being more of a nurturer connector

00:55:13.260 rather than a provider protector. And, but the, but in order for that to work, the woman has to respect

00:55:21.760 the man for being in that role. Marriages in which men are the primary caretaker fall apart

00:55:30.760 if the man does not feel that she respects the man for being the primary caretaker.

00:55:39.780 Does she generally?

00:55:41.760 No, that is not. Usually not. It is an effort. It is a training. It is a conscious selection process.

00:55:52.440 And women are very much more likely to be at work. And then somebody who's really an outstanding

00:56:00.000 person at work, they have respect for that person. And they're likely to pull away and

00:56:05.400 feelings of attraction to that person. The father will pick it up, pick up that energy, pick up,

00:56:12.040 you know, maybe go to a Christmas party or a holiday party. And, and we'll start seeing the

00:56:17.920 connection between his wife and that man that's more successful. And that, then that will lead to

00:56:23.260 anger and so on. And the woman will feel, well, gee, you're so insecure. And then that will, you know,

00:56:28.720 that will go down a sliding slope of negativity, which is what, one of the reasons why two things

00:56:34.380 are so important is helping women understand that this is the type of, if you have the type of personality

00:56:41.360 that wants to be a habitable woman, you can suggest, you can't allow yourself to fall in love with another

00:56:48.620 superstar type of male and raise children. You can do that if you don't want to raise children.

00:56:54.540 But if you want to raise children and you want to have something other than a nanny take care of the

00:56:58.480 children and, and, and you want your children to feel as internally secure as possible and to feel

00:57:04.120 the love of their mother and father, that in selecting all of this, one has to always remember

00:57:09.840 that a child looks in the mirror and the child when she or he looks in the mirror is half the mother

00:57:16.360 and half the father. And they sense that, I have the, I have the, you know, that thick, beautiful hair

00:57:22.780 of my father. I have my, this quality of my mom. And, you know, and if you're, and if either one of

00:57:28.900 them are not around to love them and, and, but the nanny is wonderful. They, they don't feel the

00:57:35.720 connection from the nanny that is that, that, that is that half of them. And this is not because nannies

00:57:43.280 are bad. It's because the children need to feel that, that, that connection to the biological dad and the

00:57:49.940 biological mom, which is why even though stepdads can be helpful. It's rare that the stepdad is as

00:57:56.860 when I wrote, you know, the boy crisis book and a book before that on this issue. And I was a

00:58:02.500 stepfather. I sent this to the draft of the book to the biological father. He was impacted by it enough

00:58:09.580 to move back from 500 miles away from the children to, to be more with the children, because he saw that

00:58:16.820 it wasn't Warren Farrell stepdad that was really needed by the children. Um, yes, he has all these

00:58:23.580 sort of nurture connector skills, but it makes less difference than, than it does to the children to

00:58:30.140 have me, him, uh, with, with, with them. So I, I take a little bit of an issue with this phrase that

00:58:37.840 you've used of the have it all woman. Yes. I just, I just don't think that's possible. I think,

00:58:44.660 and help, let's talk about this. Let's hash this out a little bit to the degree that we can. I just,

00:58:49.360 when we say that basically what we're telling women is that you can go out and you can pursue

00:58:54.980 this incredible career and you can make partner and you can run this fortune 500 company and you

00:59:01.500 can be the best possible mother. And I just don't think that's the case the same way as a father

00:59:06.660 though, too. I, I, I recognize that although I work at home and I try to be as active as possible,

00:59:12.800 like as I can in my kid's life, there is a sacrifice that I have to make. And I think

00:59:17.740 generally speaking, based on what I've seen, men are more prone to make that sacrifice and women,

00:59:24.620 especially as you get older and, and potentially lose some of their childbearing years, start to hold

00:59:30.600 some regrets and some animosity about some decisions regarding being this quote unquote,

00:59:37.580 have it all type woman. Yes. I actually agree with you. Um, when, uh, if you're a, but, but there's,

00:59:47.320 there's a degree issue here. Um, when women have children, um, and they, they're, they want to have

00:59:54.280 really good careers. They can do that if they are prioritizing their being home for their children

01:00:01.760 and with their children. Um, and so the, but that prioritization of being home with and for their

01:00:09.620 children usually will prevent them from being, from breaking a glass ceiling of being a CEO of a

01:00:16.420 significant company. Um, and if they are a CEO of a significant company, oftentimes that priority of

01:00:24.440 being with their children will begin to get lost in the shuffle. And so you're, you're absolutely right.

01:00:30.800 But you, but have it all in that looser sense of, I want a career and a career is really inspiring to

01:00:39.080 me. Um, as long as you're not, as long as you are also prioritizing the, you know, when there's a

01:00:45.200 conflict between the children and the career, there's enough flexibility there to be with the

01:00:50.000 children to a greater degree. Um, even though the children may have to occasionally miss the mom for

01:00:54.980 this reason or that reason. And a certain amount of that is not bad, but too much of that goes the other

01:01:00.360 way. Um, but that does usually prevent the woman from being have it all in the sense of being a CEO

01:01:07.720 of a significant corporation or doing a startup, uh, that requires usually an enormous amount of time

01:01:14.560 in the early years. Um, so you're absolutely right there. Yeah. I just, I, and, and I, and I'm not

01:01:20.680 putting this just on, I put this on myself. I think about my business. There's been many times

01:01:24.820 where I've throttled the business. Um, maybe there was an opportunity to go speak in public

01:01:31.140 that I could have made five or six figures in the pursuit of doing, and I've decided,

01:01:35.640 thank you, but no, thank you. Yes. They're just choices. And to say that we can have it all

01:01:42.180 is a bit of a misnomer. You can have anything, but you can't have all of it.

01:01:46.540 Yes. If you're taking it, this is a thing of degree. If you're, if you want a career

01:01:52.780 while you're raising children that, and you define have it all that way, that is possible.

01:01:58.980 If you have the father at home helping to raise the children, and particularly if there's less

01:02:05.640 danger as a mom, mom, that you will get carried away because there's less identity. Um, in for,

01:02:13.400 for women, there's less identity and going around saying I'm a CEO because you, you, and if you have

01:02:19.560 children, there'll also be lots of people questioning your, the amount of involvement you have with your

01:02:24.880 children. Whereas you're, if you're a dad and you're a CEO, there's, there's, there's the people

01:02:31.620 will often stop with the admiration for your being that CEO and not take you to, you know, what's your

01:02:37.800 relationship with your children like. And so we, as people, as supporters of healthy children, um, we, we need

01:02:46.280 to be able to make sure that we are, um, talking with fathers and mothers about, um, what's your

01:02:52.740 connection to your children. And in that, in that framework, here's an important thing. Um, once your

01:02:59.080 family has, depending on where in the United States you live, between 50 and $80,000 worth of income for a

01:03:07.540 family of four, once your family has that amount of income per year for a family of four, um, the,

01:03:16.120 the children benefit more from dad's time than dad's dime.

01:03:22.960 Hmm. What was the amount? What did, what amount did you say time versus dime? I like that.

01:03:27.700 Yes. Um, uh, between 50 and 80,000, depending on where in the United States you live, obviously,

01:03:32.480 you know, to live in Maine is a lot less expensive than living, um, you know, in San, in San Francisco

01:03:38.260 or New York city. Sure. Sure. So, um, but, but, um, the children very rarely go to therapists and say,

01:03:46.760 I wish my father or mother spent more money on me. Yes. I imagine that doesn't get brought up a whole

01:03:55.560 lot. No, no. And, and, and, and many people are likely to say, you know, we, we came from a poor

01:04:01.560 background, but I had a lot of love for my mom and dad. And, um, and that allowed me to be resilient

01:04:07.780 or to, to, you know, to get through a lot of things in life and it wasn't so bad. And I appreciate this

01:04:13.720 and that as a result of not having so much money. Yeah. That's a good point. Even in my own, again,

01:04:18.980 anecdotally, you know, some, there were stretches months at a time where, you know, I just didn't see

01:04:25.640 my mom a whole lot and it wasn't because she was out doing her thing. It was because she was

01:04:29.640 working two and three jobs at a time to make sure I never had to question whether it was food on the

01:04:34.080 table or a roof overhead and looking back on it now. And I think, you know, there's probably a lot

01:04:40.300 of nights where my mom was in her bedroom by herself alone, crying herself to sleep and never

01:04:49.480 making a sound that me or my sister could hear. Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would, I would bet you are

01:04:59.640 right. I think there's a big element to what you're talking about, about here with just knowing

01:05:05.800 yourself, right? Knowing what you want, knowing what you're after, and then being willing to make

01:05:10.600 those trades. But I am very interested as we, as we get closer to time here, um, what you would

01:05:18.980 suggest to a man, maybe it's a, uh, uh, a first time marriage, maybe it's a second or third marriage

01:05:27.180 with stepchildren and stepfather situation so that a man could help get his wife on board with

01:05:35.640 understanding his contribution. Although she may not fully understand his contribution to the

01:05:42.080 dynamic of the marriage and the dynamic of raising children. Yes. Very good. Very important question.

01:05:47.800 The most important single thing I can suggest is go to the chapter in the boy crisis, where I talk

01:05:53.800 about the differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting and, and fill yourself

01:06:01.480 yourself with why your style parenting, your likelihood to tease more, your likelihood to

01:06:07.940 encourage the kids to take risks more. You're likely to, to be okay with the children failing

01:06:12.920 more. You're likelihood to be willing to roughhouse more. You're likely to, to do, um, the sports and

01:06:18.580 activities with the children, um, in which you actually participate, uh, your likelihood to beat the

01:06:24.100 children at the sport when they're not focusing enough and letting them cry and come out the other

01:06:29.600 side of that and still knowing that you were there for them. Dozens of things like that, um, are

01:06:35.560 differences between dad and mom style parenting on average. Again, sometimes it's reversed. And then

01:06:40.800 once you get those under your belt, do not treat them as this makes my style parenting better, but rather

01:06:48.360 that this is a contribution that I offer. And let's talk about your contribution and let's put, let's get

01:06:54.900 the best of both worlds together. So the children want to climb a tree. Mom feels it's too dangerous.

01:07:00.860 Um, maybe in a few years, dad feels it's not so dangerous. Um, you know, the child should be let,

01:07:06.540 allowed to climb the tree and mom and dad negotiate. Okay. The child can climb the tree, but not be past a

01:07:12.360 certain point. And dad, you have to be out underneath the tree without your cell phone to, uh, falls out of

01:07:21.240 the tree. Right. Um, so you can, you can cushion the child and then, but dad has to know that climbing

01:07:28.080 that tree increases risks. Um, risk is, is riskier and risk taking and knowing what risk to take and

01:07:35.640 what risks not to take actually develops synapses in a child's brain, uh, connects them that increases

01:07:42.560 a child's intelligence IQ, literally IQ. And there's, there's so much evidence to show that dad style

01:07:51.380 parenting has something to offer. But to this day, I've never heard a dad say, you know, sweetie,

01:07:56.980 I'd like to do some roughhousing with the kids because I think it'll make them more empathetic.

01:08:01.960 That's counterintuitive.

01:08:03.660 Yeah. It's so counterintuitive and moms can't hear what dads don't say. And on the other hand,

01:08:09.620 dads, um, um, need to also listen to what mom's contributions are, you know, what the contribution

01:08:16.320 of making sure that the child has you under the tree when she or he potentially falls and that

01:08:21.660 you're not focused on your cell phone. You're focused on the child, um, falling in your, but

01:08:25.480 on the other hand, that you're not child telling the child everything to do, um, you know, what to

01:08:30.820 do and what not to do as a mom is more likely to do. No, sweetie, don't go there. Uh, the dad is

01:08:35.860 more likely to sit, let the child go there and learn from making a mistake that that was not the

01:08:42.060 place she or he should have gone to. And so all of these things have are balancing acts. So once

01:08:49.000 you understand, now let's say, let me spend a moment with a, with a mom who's a single mom,

01:08:53.320 like your mom was. Um, and so what to do if you are a single mom and you don't have that dad to

01:09:00.000 balance this, uh, number one, ask yourself the question, can you get the biological dad involved

01:09:07.060 again? And if the answer is no, ask yourself a second question of, um, uh, no man well enough

01:09:14.680 to know that when men feel needed, wanted and valued, they almost always appear. Think every

01:09:26.260 generation had its war. When uncle Sam said, we need you to be willing to die so others can be saved

01:09:37.520 and live. Every generation of men stepped forward with so when they were told they were needed,

01:09:44.460 they were willing to die to serve just like, um, like I doubtless you did in the military. And so the,

01:09:53.720 and so if you tell a dad, I have learned what the value of your dad style parenting is. I didn't

01:10:03.100 understand that before the children need this to be part of their life in balance with me. I want to

01:10:10.600 be able to do good communication training with you so I can hear your contribution and have you hear

01:10:16.720 my contribution. I do couples communication workshops all around the country exactly for this

01:10:21.840 reason. If you know, you don't have good communication, you tend to get a divorce. You

01:10:26.400 don't have, you get a divorce. There tends to be less father involvement, less father involvement.

01:10:31.480 There tends to be a boy crisis. They're all connected. And so the first job is to see if you can get the

01:10:37.760 biological dad involved. If you can't get the biological dad involved, um, make sure your children are

01:10:44.180 involved with the liberal arts of sports, which is basically team sports, pickup team sports and

01:10:51.760 individual sports like gymnastics that contribute to a team, but there's a lot of focus on discipline.

01:10:56.860 Um, and then make sure you make contact with the male coaches of your, for your sons to make sure

01:11:03.200 that the end for your daughters to make sure that the, the, the female and your daughter and son

01:11:08.160 has somebody in their life, um, who can, can be, can care for them. That's male, but that's particularly

01:11:15.840 important for your son, because if you're a female and, and he's a male and he has no, um, option of

01:11:22.320 another male role model that leaves him, um, going, going oftentimes, um, from a home to a school with very

01:11:30.260 few female role models. And there's usually not a diversity of male role models at school. Even there's

01:11:36.160 usually a small number, and most of them are nurturer connector type of men rather than provider protector

01:11:42.280 men. Or coaches. And if you're not playing sports, you're not going to be introduced to them.

01:11:47.140 Exactly. Exactly. And so, um, also make sure you get your children involved with faith-based communities.

01:11:52.620 And no matter what your faith is, make sure the, the person, the priest, the rabbi, the, um,

01:11:58.740 the minister or the imam, uh, that he, uh, organizes your son into, um, small groups with other boys his

01:12:06.660 age in which the boys learn to express their feelings confidentially to each other. So your boy sees that

01:12:13.660 his insecurities are not the, uh, are, are not, um, abnormal, that they're not, they're not his alone.

01:12:20.700 And so just spend time, um, in the boy crisis book, looking at all the things you can do to, um, to get

01:12:28.720 your son to have, uh, a stepfather involved, uh, involving a stepfather does not mean your son is

01:12:36.660 going to get the benefits of a stepfather. Learn the difference between the, the multiple types of

01:12:42.000 involvements of a stepfather so that, that allow the stepfather not to be just an advisor that's

01:12:48.280 powerless, but to have an equal balance of power with you, um, even as a stepfather.

01:12:55.480 I have so many more notes. I think we're going to have to do another one if you're open to it.

01:13:01.180 Cause I, I, a couple of things that I want to talk more about with you at a, at a future date is

01:13:07.580 issues like same sex marriage. Um, you know, uh, if there's a boy crisis, is there a girl crisis in,

01:13:18.020 in the lack of fatherhood? I, I got so, I got so many questions. So if you're open to it,

01:13:25.180 I'd love to have another conversation, but this has just been so valuable and I've always appreciated

01:13:29.800 our talks and of course your wisdom. And, um, I heard you on, uh, Jordan Peterson's podcast,

01:13:35.420 several, I think several weeks or a month or so ago, I read your book. Um, I haven't read any of

01:13:41.560 your others. Maybe I need to pick up a few of your others. I've only read the boy crisis,

01:13:44.900 but I've been so enlightened and it's really helped me be a better parent, a better father

01:13:49.240 for my children and leader in the community as well. Oh, thank you very much. I really appreciate

01:13:54.180 that. And so, um, and I, you, you ask great questions, you are personal, you connect to your

01:14:01.000 real life. Um, I assume, and then you listen really well. And so it's just a pleasure, um,

01:14:06.520 um, being interviewed by you and interviewing a little bit, interviewing you as well.

01:14:10.960 Yeah. You asked me some good questions as well. Is there any way good, good, good. I'd love to do

01:14:18.480 that. Is there anywhere that you would direct the guys who are listening to be able to connect with

01:14:22.740 you? Obviously pick up a copy of the boy crisis, uh, any other resources or directions you could

01:14:27.680 give them in? Yes. One thing is I've, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback to the audible version of

01:14:33.480 the boy crisis from a lot of people who are, if you do commuting or you do, um, you know, you're on a

01:14:38.980 treadmill and stuff, doing exercises, uh, often listening to the audible version is, um, very much

01:14:44.500 easier. Um, if you're a reader of the, the, the print version has the value of, um, having all the

01:14:50.300 800 footnotes in the back and to be able to go over it a little bit more easily in that way. So,

01:14:55.580 um, don't shy away from whatever style allows you to learn the best. Uh, the boy crisis,

01:15:01.900 Amazon has it on sale now, but if you're, you know, if you have enough money, just support your local

01:15:06.960 bookstore, um, and, and that. Excellent. Well, we'll sync everything up. We'll let the guys know

01:15:12.300 and Dr. Farrell, again, I appreciate you. Thank you for what you do. You're, you're, and I talked

01:15:18.340 about this, your background is just so diverse and so distinct that I think it gives you a power that

01:15:23.120 a lot of us may not quite have because we haven't seen it from both sides of the equation and you

01:15:28.480 certainly have. So really appreciate you taking some time with us today. Thank you. It's been a real

01:15:33.100 pleasure, um, working with you and talking with you. There you go, man. I hope you enjoyed the

01:15:40.520 conversation as much as I did. What a powerful, powerful discussion. And, uh, as you heard in

01:15:45.760 the podcast, I'm going to be bringing this gentleman back on because we need to, I've got

01:15:50.060 about 17,000 other questions that I need to ask Dr. Farrell. And, uh, if you have any interest

01:15:57.460 in figuring out how I can get your questions answered, then make sure to connect with me

01:16:03.080 on the socials, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and let me know, Hey, I want to hear from Dr.

01:16:08.440 Farrell about X, Y, and Z. I want to hear from Joe Schmo about A, B, and C. I want to hear from

01:16:12.780 whoever it is that you want to hear from and what you want to hear. And I will do my best to give

01:16:18.560 you a voice on this podcast by asking your thoughtful questions. Uh, in the meantime, guys,

01:16:25.320 please connect with Dr. Farrell on Instagram and also Twitter connect with me there. Take a

01:16:30.460 screenshot. Also do me a favor. If you have a father of boys in your life, who, you know, that

01:16:36.900 could be potentially your father. Uh, that could be a friend, a neighborhood or not a neighborhood,

01:16:44.920 excuse me, a neighbor, a relative, whoever it might be. And you think they need to hear this

01:16:48.980 conversation. Please just take a screenshot, send the link over. This is how we do a grassroots

01:16:53.780 movement to build this organization up and ultimately to serve you guys and serve the

01:16:58.660 young men of our community and nation. All right, you guys, you have your marching orders. Make sure

01:17:04.100 you check out originusa.com for their new hunt line. Uh, check out our legacy experience,

01:17:09.760 order of man.com slash legacy, and then do your part by sharing, leaving your ratings and reviews

01:17:14.660 goes a very long way. We'll be back tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become the man

01:17:20.120 you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take

01:17:25.400 charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

01:17:30.040 order of man.com.

Order of Man - July 26, 2022

DR. WARREN FARRELL ｜ The Dangers of Dad-Deprivation

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