Order of Man - Establishing the Mindsets for Victory

00:00:00.000 In the midst of all the variables and uncertainties, it can be a real challenge

00:00:03.680 to create victories for yourself on the home, business, or personal front. Fortunately,

00:00:09.180 you and I have control over the one variable that makes the biggest difference, your mindset.

00:00:14.360 My guest today is retired Navy SEAL Command Master Chief Jason Gardner. We talk about the

00:00:19.400 laws of combat, transitioning from successful warrior to successful homesteader, overcoming

00:00:25.080 social anxiety and PTSD, and ultimately how to embrace and execute the mindsets for victory.

00:00:32.440 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:00:37.140 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not

00:00:43.000 easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:00:49.940 This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done,

00:00:54.520 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am

00:01:00.380 the host and the founder of this podcast and the Order of Man movement. I've got another powerful

00:01:05.100 conversation to add to our lineup of incredible guests. If you're new to the podcast, these guests

00:01:10.540 include Jocko Willink, David Goggins, Grant Cardone, Andy Frisilla, Dakota Meyer, Tim Kennedy,

00:01:17.360 Pete Roberts. Who else? Man, I could go on all day. John Eldridge. I mean, the list is just absolutely

00:01:23.500 incredible. You just have to see it for yourself. So if you haven't subscribed to the podcast,

00:01:27.460 make sure you do. So you don't ever miss a single podcast episode. Guys, what we're doing here is

00:01:34.180 attempting at least to give you the tools and the conversations and resources that you need to

00:01:38.360 become a more effective, capable father, husband, business owner, community leader,

00:01:43.400 just man in general. So we're reaching literally now millions and millions of men across the planet,

00:01:48.580 which is a very cool thing. I had a cool project I did with my son just the other day

00:01:52.540 is that we, we bought a map. My wife specifically bought a map for us. Now we got some pins and

00:01:58.120 we're pinning everywhere that people are supporting us via the order of man store. So guys, if you

00:02:04.140 haven't gone to the store, make sure you do store.orderofman.com. My son and I both look forward

00:02:09.080 to doing that every single day so that we can pin where you guys are from and see how far this

00:02:14.760 mission is spreading, which is far and wide. It's literally the entire planet at this point,

00:02:19.240 which is very cool. Guys, I've got a great conversation lined up for you today. Before I

00:02:24.940 do, I want to get into the, the podcast sponsor. You are very familiar with them at this point.

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00:03:24.920 origin, Maine.com use the code order. One more thing I'll say about origin guys. I do not work for

00:03:30.060 origin. A lot of people have asked me that over the past little while, probably because I talk

00:03:33.680 about them so much. Yes. They're friends. But ultimately it's the reason I talk about them so

00:03:38.960 much is because I believe wholeheartedly in what they're doing. So no, I do not work for origin.

00:03:42.900 I just really appreciate who they are as a, as a, as a company and the people there and what it is

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00:03:57.540 order. All right, guys, like I said, got a powerful conversation with a powerful man today.

00:04:01.640 His name is Jason Gardner. He's a retired Navy SEAL command master chief. He's got over 30 years

00:04:07.000 of military service under his belt with nine deployments across the globe. In fact, I'm looking

00:04:12.100 at his challenge coin right here that he was gracious enough to send to me. And even this thing is

00:04:17.740 badass, just like he is. He served at every level of leadership from SEAL sniper to lead instructor

00:04:22.980 at Naval special warfare group, one training detachment to SEAL team five command master chief.

00:04:28.580 He's also the recipient of the silver star, two bronze stars, a purple heart and countless other

00:04:35.180 honors. I'm sure. Uh, but now he serves as a leadership instructor and speaker and strategic

00:04:39.820 advisor at echelon front, which I'm sure most of you are familiar with. That's Jocko's company.

00:04:44.120 Uh, again, not only is he a bad-ass on the field, but in every other facet of life as well. And I've

00:04:48.440 been looking forward to getting this conversation to you, Jason, what's up brother. Thanks for

00:04:52.960 joining me on the podcast. Hey, glad to be here. I know we, uh, it was a couple of months ago and we

00:05:00.500 did this, we did round one and I guess we'll just have to look at that one as a practice run. Cause

00:05:04.340 I think we had, if I remember right, we had some audio issues or video issue, like something didn't

00:05:08.980 turn out on my end. And so I hated to have to reach out to you and tell you we had to do it again.

00:05:12.640 But, uh, I do appreciate, uh, a little bit, a little bit of grace on that. Uh, no factor.

00:05:19.580 Yeah. Yeah. How's, uh, how's the, uh, the homestead coming along? I know you guys are in

00:05:24.640 the middle of winter. Like we are, we're on the other side of the country, but how that,

00:05:27.320 how's that coming along? Yeah. I'm just getting ready for the big, uh, flush of work come spring.

00:05:33.180 So we just, we still have some snow on the ground, um, up on our 40 acres. There's some more

00:05:41.280 brush that I want to clear. I, I got a bunch of clearing done in the fall and then, uh, come

00:05:47.980 April, I'm going to plant trees till my hands bleed. I've got like 300 trees on her and, uh,

00:05:54.880 I'm, I'm fired up getting ready to build some bird houses with the kids too. So still, you

00:06:02.320 know, it's in that period where planning, but like in a couple of weeks here will be longer

00:06:08.080 days and going full tilt. Yeah. What type of trees are you planting?

00:06:12.960 Uh, man, I'm planting, uh, some, a bunch of conifers, you know, some blue spruce, uh, some,

00:06:22.260 uh, Canadian hemlock, uh, I'm planting a bunch of oaks, a bunch of, uh, of, uh, um, chestnuts,

00:06:33.100 a bunch of hickory, a bunch of stuff that is going to bring the wildlife in and kind

00:06:38.200 of hold it and give them stuff to, to, um, eat off crab apples. Cause they hold their

00:06:43.220 fruit real far into the winter, American persimmon because the deer really like them and it keeps

00:06:49.040 them around, uh, that, that kind of stuff. Yeah. So really the goal is to just bring the

00:06:53.680 wildlife in and let them make that their home. Then it sounds like.

00:06:56.180 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's cool. I know there's a, there's a lot of things that

00:07:03.500 I want to do here. Part of it is, uh, having a, uh, an orchard, mostly apples. We want to

00:07:09.360 plant apples and my wife's got all their seeds and everything ready to go. And she's going

00:07:12.860 to be planting them tonight. And we've got an area in the basement. We're going to have

00:07:16.460 them for now until we're ready to put them out. So she's got her whole thing ready to go

00:07:20.720 too. So we're waiting for that, uh, that thought to kick in and we're going to get after

00:07:24.920 it too. Are you starting apples from seed?

00:07:30.180 I don't know how we're going to do that. We, we, we've done like the little saplings

00:07:34.000 in the past, so I'm not sure if we're going to do that or if we're just going to, if we're

00:07:37.580 just going to get those types of trees and plant them that way. There was an old apple

00:07:41.280 orchard on our property that, um, I don't know if the trees just, just grew old and eventually

00:07:46.280 died or they won't, weren't being maintained and they got overrun, but there is an area in

00:07:50.360 the property that it used to be an apple orchard. And there's a couple of trees there

00:07:54.640 now we just want to bring it back to life. Yeah. Some of those, uh, those old homestead

00:07:58.940 trees are, could be some really interesting varieties and give them a good pruning can

00:08:03.760 really bring them back. Or if there are a variety where the fruit isn't very good, you

00:08:08.100 can always look at the option of grafting something onto it that tastes a little better

00:08:12.460 because you got that massive root base and you can really just get some amazing growth

00:08:16.420 out of it. Yeah. You hate to put it to waste if, uh, if it's something that could actually

00:08:20.220 produce, you know, it just needs a little, uh, a little care, a little attention. And I think

00:08:24.640 that can go a long way. So I'm really excited to get that going this year. Is this something

00:08:29.940 that you've always been interested in, or is this all these types of activities and all

00:08:34.920 these things you're doing on the property? Is this something like, like, like a new development

00:08:38.740 that you've been interested in? Where are you at with that?

00:08:40.720 So it's, I've been interested in gardening and farming since I was a little kid. Uh, my

00:08:48.980 mom always kept a garden that was medium size and I was interested in getting out there and

00:08:54.760 helping in her working with the dirt. And then when I met Iris, she actually is from a

00:09:01.240 very rural areas, always kept a huge garden. So when I was on active duty and we lived down

00:09:07.500 in San Diego, um, part of the deal for, you know, her accepting my hand in marriage was

00:09:13.160 that she's like, Hey, if I'm going to move down to San Diego, you're going to get me a

00:09:17.000 place where I can look out the window and see my horses. And we're not keeping them over

00:09:21.060 in, you know, some stable somewhere. Luckily, San Diego, you, you have the opportunity to get

00:09:27.560 a little bit of a property. And then also when we were ready to buy the bubble burst. And so

00:09:33.380 things were really inexpensive and we were able to get an 18 acre place in East County. That

00:09:38.940 was an hour commute from work, which was manageable for me. Um, especially because, you know, either

00:09:45.320 I'm getting off early or I'm deployed in the SEAL teams. So we started running a, uh, uh, CSA,

00:09:54.020 which is community supported agriculture, basically an organic farm. And we did that for 10 years.

00:09:58.940 And that was something that we really enjoyed, but it's a lot of hard work. And now where we're

00:10:05.700 at with it is we're just going to grow for ourselves and maybe enough to give away to the

00:10:11.460 neighbors, but we're not into doing it for a paycheck because that's just, it's, it's brutal.

00:10:17.080 It's not, it's not what we're after. Yeah. I can't imagine it's entirely profitable that way,

00:10:22.540 either, unless you're running hundreds and hundreds of acres and you're super efficient with the way that

00:10:27.200 you're running it with the community supported agriculture. Is that something that, uh, members

00:10:32.800 were contributing to like they, it was like sweat equity. How did that work? Yeah. So here, here's

00:10:38.680 how we did it. We, we modified the model a little bit. So the, the model typically for a community

00:10:44.340 supported agriculture and by we, I mean, Iris did, I just labor and, and support. Um, so typically

00:10:52.880 people will buy a six month subscription to your farm. And so they'll pay a big amount of money

00:10:59.340 upfront. And then every week you'll give them a box of whatever happens to be, you know, whatever

00:11:07.000 you're harvesting at that time. The problem with it is it, that's a big chunk of money upfront. And a

00:11:13.000 lot of people aren't willing to do that. The other aspect of it as a grower, you, you feel this immense

00:11:20.120 pressure to give people something every week and it's super stressful. So how we tweaked it was we

00:11:27.240 just got a base of clients. And then every week that we actually had a box worth of things to, to

00:11:35.100 give, give out to people, you know, we would say, Hey, 10 boxes out on an email list. This is what we

00:11:41.560 have available. And to, you know, in those 10 boxes that would go out to a list of about 30 families,

00:11:48.220 typically it would sell out inside of an hour. And then Iris would take all the boxes to one

00:11:54.100 location and people would come there in the afternoon and pick it up. So it worked out really

00:11:59.060 well. We also, uh, we had incredible support from a company called, uh, Pete's paleo. And what they do

00:12:07.820 is they pre-package paleo meals for people. So they don't have to worry about cooking paleo. And

00:12:14.960 they bought a ton of the stuff we were producing. So we, we, we gauged what we were growing basically

00:12:21.740 for a paleo stock lifestyle. So there was a lot of, of, uh, Jerusalem artichokes, um, purple potatoes,

00:12:30.300 paleo compliant stuff, you know, not a lot of corn or anything. And, uh, they, they were huge supporters

00:12:37.080 to our, to our business. Uh, when we were running it back there in San Diego. Yeah, that's cool.

00:12:42.000 But that's how it's working. Now you'll be amazed. Here's the trick. There, there are people that

00:12:47.140 actually make a lot of money on a very small amount of property, like three quarters of an acre.

00:12:52.900 Really? And yeah. And so what they're doing is they've done all the math on the different crops.

00:13:00.900 It's like, okay, it goes into XL. This is how much I, this is how much I make on the crop. This is how much

00:13:07.940 it takes to where I'm ready to harvest it. And they're doing that math for everything. And micro

00:13:14.220 greens right now are, are a big moneymaker. And so people are growing these micro greens that

00:13:21.660 they're then selling to restaurants or whatever at a premium, you know, your arugulas, your baby

00:13:26.240 spinach, stuff like that. It, it grows fast. You harvest it. The price for pound is pretty good.

00:13:33.000 And then if you can avoid hiring employees and having to buy machinery, then, then it's all profits.

00:13:42.660 Cause that's where a lot of these big farms run into problems is they've got so much overheads

00:13:48.580 between employees, whatever their state regulations are with that. And then the cost of the heavy

00:13:54.100 equipment and the maintain maintenance of it. Uh, you know, the guy on three quarters of an acre can

00:14:00.960 be making more than somebody out there doing a couple hundred acres.

00:14:07.140 Yeah, that's interesting. That's actually a really good, I think, business lesson. You know, I look at

00:14:10.860 my business and how we've managed it and we have people that help us and support us and I compensate

00:14:15.120 them of course, but we're so nimble and mobile and able to act very quickly on ideas and capitalize on

00:14:23.300 those where big, huge organizations and companies might ultimately be able to put something together,

00:14:28.820 you know, that might be bigger or grander or more well-funded, but it takes a lot longer.

00:14:34.420 Profit margins seem to be smaller and there has to be a lot more effort to get that ship rolling than

00:14:40.300 just, just us where it's basically me and a handful of great guys who've been with us for a long time

00:14:45.720 supporting our mission and our cause.

00:14:47.700 Right. I mean, you know, that's, that's why they have that saying. You can't turn an aircraft carrier on a

00:14:52.000 dime. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. It's funny that we're having this conversation and I'm sure

00:14:58.560 a lot of guys are like, wait, we're having this, this Navy seal on and we're talking about like

00:15:03.640 gardening and homesteading, which is a completely different conversation than I think a lot of the

00:15:09.060 guys are used to when I have conversations with men like yourself. Um, how, how has this transition

00:15:14.720 been from seal to now, you know, fully engaged husband, father, gardener, homesteader, and

00:15:22.720 everything else that you've got going on? What's the transition been like for you?

00:15:27.420 So it's luckily for me, it's been really smooth. Uh, and the reason for that is

00:15:35.180 as I transitioned out of the Navy, the last two years, I was at a training command. I was a master

00:15:41.380 chief of our training attachment. That's the same command that, uh, Jocko retired out of as the

00:15:47.120 officer in charge, running all the training for the West coast seal teams. And I'm not talking about

00:15:51.020 our selection training for guys wanting to be seals. This is the actual training for current seals

00:15:57.520 getting ready to deploy. Right. Doing their workups and whatnot. Freedom to help out. Yeah. That gave me

00:16:03.120 the freedom to, to, to work on, um, you know, more around our farm in San Diego and, and get ready for

00:16:14.800 this transition. And we've been planning it. So, you know, we're playing chess. We're not playing

00:16:19.680 checkers. I'm trying to always think three moves ahead. And so four years out, I was trying to figure

00:16:26.940 out what am I going to do with my retirement and what do I want to do and where will I be happy?

00:16:34.960 And for me, uh, I'm, I'm the happiest. I feel grounded and I feel at the most peace in the

00:16:43.400 mountains close to the wilderness. And that's what brought us to this area in Northeastern

00:16:48.880 Washington, where we, where we live. There's a low level of aggravation that I feel anytime I go

00:16:54.820 into a densely populated area. Uh, and there's probably some work I could do on that, but I,

00:17:01.620 I tell you ever since I've moved, uh, my life is better in every way that you measure,

00:17:07.740 you can measure it. Um, but that, that comes with a huge amount of that is, is already having my new

00:17:14.200 purpose. My new goal, my new mission is what Jocko says laid out. And that's, uh, basically,

00:17:20.660 you know, enjoying the family, enjoying, you know, a homesteading type lifestyle and nature,

00:17:26.740 being able to hunt and fish more. And, uh, and then also working with echelon front,

00:17:32.880 which I've got a peer group that's basically second to none. Yeah. Oh yeah, no doubt. Well,

00:17:37.720 I want to talk with you about that in a minute, but it is good that you're talking about, uh,

00:17:43.660 isolating yourself to some degree. I don't know if that's necessarily the right word,

00:17:46.680 although it fits because I think popular culture says that we have to engage more in society and be

00:17:53.100 more visible and more present and, and always looking for bigger and greater and grander within

00:17:58.820 the capacity of, uh, corporate environments and always trying to be profitable. And I think,

00:18:05.300 you know, for some people, I think that's probably right. And that's fulfilling to them.

00:18:10.000 Um, it certainly hasn't been the case for me. And I know a lot of guys resonate with what you're

00:18:14.380 saying and are trying to figure out a way to live more of the lifestyle you're talking about,

00:18:19.360 rather than that fast paced corporate environment in a big concrete jungle where they feel like

00:18:26.160 they're just ants or cogs in the wheel, just running around doing nothing meaningful.

00:18:33.520 Yeah. And there's a balance there. Uh, one of the things I've noticed personally is I've been

00:18:40.380 working really hard to interact with people more and it's, it's easier in an area where the population

00:18:47.160 density is less, right? So when I'm walking down the street here, if I look people that are passing

00:18:54.060 me in the eye and smile at them, their first assumption is not, what is this guy trying to

00:19:00.340 sell me or is he going to pick my pocket? Right? Yeah. But here, uh, you know, people look at you and

00:19:07.940 smile back and I've tried to be cognizant lately just about how my demeanor is and what's that face

00:19:14.460 I'm putting out to the world and can it be more pleasant? Uh, and at first I had to force myself

00:19:19.900 to smile at people and interact with them. And when I mean interact, like when I go through the

00:19:25.020 checkout line at Walmart or at the grocery store, I strike up a conversation with the person, um,

00:19:31.780 you know, behind the counter there or any, anywhere I'm at, I try to talk to people.

00:19:39.000 They say it's, it's, it's better for you. And it's what it's a predictor for living longer. I know

00:19:43.960 that I, I feel better and it gives me more of a positive mental attitude, the more that I talk to

00:19:48.440 people. So I'm not becoming a hermit by living, living out here in the wilderness, but there,

00:19:55.420 there is, there is a certain density of population where it's a little bit more difficult to be as

00:20:03.920 open and friendly as you should be. Um, number one and number two crowds stress me out a little bit.

00:20:11.820 Um, that's something I've got to be a little bit more stoic about because I have the freedom to not

00:20:17.400 be stressed out in a crowd. And that's something I work at and just labeling the fact that, that,

00:20:23.200 Hey, you're in a crowd. Like, you know, when I take the kids to Disneyland or something,

00:20:27.120 I'm a little bit on edge, but when I label it in my head, it's like, Hey, you're on edge,

00:20:32.860 but you really, is, is this something you can change? No. Then let, let go of that stress.

00:20:40.680 Is, uh, is the level of stress and anxiety that you feel when you're in this type of environment,

00:20:45.320 your personality, or is it due to your training, the experiences that you've had? Where does that come

00:20:52.580 from? It's an aspect of a portion of my personality and then it getting magnified by combat. And so

00:21:00.700 when people talk about PTSD and they think, um, Oh, you know, that's someone hears a loud noise and

00:21:09.020 maybe they jump on the ground and, and, and that, that could be an aspect of it. For me, it was,

00:21:16.620 it, it, it manifests itself like, like this, you know, I do an eight month real stressful combat

00:21:22.600 deployment and then come back. And for eight months, every stressor that I experienced was a

00:21:29.900 fight or flight life or death stressor. And I'd reinforced all those neural pathways. And so

00:21:36.660 come back from that deployment, somebody cuts me off in traffic and I want to physically rip my

00:21:43.760 steering wheel out of my car and go choke them with it. Right. Yeah. But because I just didn't know

00:21:51.480 how to cope with stuff. And so that, that was my struggle with, with, I had a fuse to losing my

00:21:59.420 temper. That was about a millisecond long. And it took me a while to decelerate and realize, Hey,

00:22:07.360 all these threats, almost none of them are fight or flight. Actually, I will probably have maybe one

00:22:15.400 more stressor in my lifetime that, uh, is fight or flight. I've got all those reinforced. I'll be

00:22:22.240 able to deal with it then, but I just need to work on all those other stressors. They're not that big

00:22:27.920 a deal. Relax, you know? Yeah. I'm glad you're talking about it in that context, because I think

00:22:33.260 generally when people think of the term PTSD, they think of some debilitating mental condition

00:22:41.700 that keeps men and women from functioning. And although maybe it can go that far to that extreme.

00:22:48.540 Yeah. I think more often than not, it's just learning how to cope with civilian life. I remember

00:22:53.420 when I got back from Ramadi, my wife and I went to a, like an outdoor play. There was an amphitheater

00:22:58.820 in Southern Utah that we went to quite a bit. And at the end of the show, uh, they had fireworks

00:23:04.640 and I, and I remember vividly cause it was within probably the first couple of weeks of me being

00:23:10.300 back. It's not that, you know, I, I screamed and coward and, you know, ran and hid under somebody or

00:23:16.820 something like that. But she, she had told me that my whole body went tense. And then I just had this

00:23:23.000 like Kung Fu death grip on her hand when those fireworks were going off. And I think more often than not,

00:23:28.680 that's what it is. It's these little micro experiences that we don't quite learn how to

00:23:34.000 cope with in a healthy way. And it doesn't just come from combat. It comes from, you know,

00:23:38.840 maybe you were abused as, as a child, uh, or in another relationship. Maybe you got into some sort

00:23:44.500 of a horrific car accident. And so these little triggers pop up throughout your life and, uh, you

00:23:50.500 don't even realize that you're responding in a way that not is not necessarily healthy because of your

00:23:57.720 past experiences. Oh yeah, absolutely. And that's, uh, when I started seeing a psychologist, um,

00:24:05.480 after my 2009 deployment to, to Afghanistan at, at Iris's request, um, you know, he's, he told me,

00:24:14.440 he goes, Hey, you burn your hand on a stove. You're going to be careful around stoves. You've ridden out

00:24:21.640 a couple of, uh, IDF attacks and that's indirect fire. And that means rockets or mortars or artillery

00:24:28.360 coming into your position. Okay. You, you hear fireworks and, and you're going to get ready to,

00:24:34.200 uh, figure out where you're going to move so you can survive. Right.

00:24:39.100 Yeah. I think it's just the natural order of things. It's, it's, it's actually a good thing,

00:24:43.400 you know, because that's how we, as humans protect ourselves, defend ourselves, uh, gear up physically

00:24:49.420 and mentally for some sort of stressful, uh, or threatening situation. So in the right set of

00:24:55.600 circumstances and done healthy, uh, it's actually a good practice to learn from things that have hurt

00:25:00.720 you in the past. We just have to make sure it doesn't go too far and keep us from doing what,

00:25:04.720 uh, we would otherwise do or, or healthy practices.

00:25:08.180 Right. And, and I think unfortunately, especially for the military and first responders,

00:25:15.080 any kind of mental issue is seen as a weakness. Um, and we've got to do the best that we can to get

00:25:24.180 away from that because, you know, if you look at the suicide rates, they're, they're high. And I think

00:25:31.560 it's because people feel weak if they reach out for help. And, uh, um, I think his name's Charlie

00:25:38.000 Massey wrote, uh, what's the bravest thing you've ever done. And the answer is ask for help.

00:25:44.020 Hmm. And, and I think that that's true because that's why we have a brotherhood and that's why

00:25:51.500 we have fraternal organizations and, and, uh, and I'm including women in that. I'm glad that you

00:25:56.280 mentioned, you know, someone who suffers of rape could absolutely have PTSD or see a horrible car

00:26:03.480 accident or, uh, uh, you know, anything that our first responders have to deal with on a day to day

00:26:11.240 basis. You know, they have to go to the worst car accidents every day and that's how they,

00:26:15.540 they, they make their money. And then how they're able to turn that off when they come home,

00:26:21.340 um, is amazing because like when you and I deployed to say Ramadi, you got to come back to the States

00:26:29.540 and that's a natural separation. You know, you're not smelling that burning trash every day and you're

00:26:36.440 not seeing every, all the things that you saw, the sights and smells in Ramadi where they're

00:26:40.300 going right back to the same neighborhood that they live in. And they just saw a horrible car accident

00:26:44.760 or were involved in a shooting or had to come to a terrible domestic violence, uh, dispute.

00:26:51.720 And it's, it's crazy. And so hopefully, you know, and it's, this is how we're going to shift that

00:26:57.580 paradigm, right? You and I talking about it with other people and saying, Hey, it's okay to ask for

00:27:03.580 help. I did. I saw a psychologist for a long time and I was able to manage all of my issues without

00:27:12.800 using drugs. And I had some, I had a psychiatrist at one point trying to put me on an antidepressant

00:27:19.080 and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh, I think I can handle this without taking a pill every

00:27:25.840 day. And, and I'm to the point where I'm, I'm managing it and I'm dealing with, you know,

00:27:31.740 any kind of depression or any other stressors that I had pretty well just for facing it and owning it.

00:27:39.380 Yeah. Just, just learning what you can and evolving with it as well. It sounds like,

00:27:43.480 you know, it's funny that, that I think men in particular have a really hard time with reaching

00:27:47.540 out to a psychiatrist or psychologist for help for these mental issues because they do think

00:27:52.680 they're weak. But you know, if you have a shoulder injury, like no man's going to keep from act like

00:27:58.000 going into the doctor and getting that shoulder repaired, right? Like if you break your leg,

00:28:01.620 it's not like, I think I can manage, like, I'm going to toughen this one out. Like you're probably

00:28:07.000 going to go in and at least get a cast on or have it x-rayed and get some, some professional

00:28:12.020 feedback on what you can do to, to heal yourself up. Right. Uh, but there is this stigma. And then

00:28:19.680 what's interesting too, is if you take men, uh, and you think about even from the time that we're,

00:28:24.660 we're boys, right? We're running around with other boys. We're playing in competitive sports.

00:28:29.480 You know, like I was in football at baseball to a lot of team sports. And we had, like you said,

00:28:34.140 that brotherhood. And then I joined the military and we have brotherhood. And when you couldn't

00:28:37.880 figure it out, then you had somebody else there to help you out and coach you and guide you,

00:28:41.840 instruct you. And nobody would ever consider having a teammate on football, a weakness or,

00:28:48.080 uh, the guys in your unit, a weakness. And yet we consider it a weakness when we are operating in

00:28:54.260 civilian world and we need some professional, you know, help. It's, it's, uh, there is that stigma

00:29:00.720 and it's really unfortunate because it keeps a lot of men from having these conversations that would

00:29:04.580 otherwise really, really help them get back on the path they want to be on.

00:29:09.980 I'll tell you that stigma exists in the military. Yeah, no doubt. Sure. That, that exists in guys

00:29:14.740 got it. And I'm sure it, it, it, it's in first responders and in general law enforcement and

00:29:22.980 firefighters and every paramedics, everybody, if they go to see the psych there, there's a kind of

00:29:30.120 stigma that they, they feel like, uh, that's there. And that's something that, that conversations

00:29:35.000 that the, you and I are having are going to help alleviate that. Um, where, where it's not seen as

00:29:41.220 a weakness. Cause like you're, you're absolutely right. If you wreck your shoulder, you're going

00:29:45.040 to go see a doctor. If your car is broken, you're going to go see a mechanic. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're,

00:29:50.580 if you're struggling mentally, um, get down to see someone that's trained to deal with it.

00:29:56.980 They can help out. Yeah, no doubt. What are some things that you did in your life as you were

00:30:01.300 working to cope with the stressors of combat and some other situations you'd been in

00:30:05.920 to be able to, to more adequately deal with everyday, you know, things like somebody cuts

00:30:13.560 you off or, you know, somebody, somebody says something rude to you or whatever. There's the

00:30:19.480 things that come up. Like, what are some of the practices that you incorporated to be able to detach

00:30:23.320 in a way and then just realize what was going on and, and handle it more effectively?

00:30:29.920 So yeah, just learning to take extreme ownership and everything that that means. Um,

00:30:39.260 and just listening to that, that whole message, you know, the Jocko and Leif put out in that first book,

00:30:45.540 they tweaked it with dichotomy, but absolutely not making excuses, not casting blame. And then the

00:30:52.580 next thing that was a huge help to me is I've become interested in stoicism and thinking about,

00:31:01.680 Hey, the ultimate freedom, I can't control anything that's out there. The only free,

00:31:06.760 the ultimate freedom I have is how I react. And so when I placed that filter on my thoughts,

00:31:13.220 when I noticed myself white knuckling the steering wheel, because you know, the car in front of me

00:31:18.580 stopped at the yellow light and we all could have made it through, I just, just run through this

00:31:23.520 little thought pattern. Like, Hey, can I control this? No. So is it worth being mad about? No. And

00:31:30.260 then I can let go of the anchor. Yeah. I mean, that's such a simple exercise and so powerful.

00:31:35.460 Uh, one of the things that I've, I've done to be able to just tail onto what you're talking about

00:31:40.020 is asking myself if my response is serving me, right? So if, for example, we'll use your,

00:31:48.420 your yellow light analogy, you get to a yellow light, the guy could have made it. You could have

00:31:52.060 made it. If you want to rage and, you know, slam into the back of his car or pull him out of his car,

00:31:58.200 whatever, whatever thoughts come to our mind, is that going to ultimately serve you? Like,

00:32:03.640 is that going to help you get to your son's baseball game any quicker? Right? Like probably

00:32:07.840 not probably just out of weight and, you know, just be calm and get there safely and securely.

00:32:12.200 And that'll move you in the direction that you want to go. So just asking this, is my response

00:32:17.460 serving me or is it hindering me? And I think more often than not, a lot of us would find that

00:32:22.660 our knee jerk reactions and responses are hindering our ultimate success and what it is we're after.

00:32:28.620 Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone's ever made a good decision while they're angry,

00:32:35.680 man. Let me hit the pause button real quick. I want to talk with you specifically dads.

00:32:40.740 We are getting very, very close to our legacy experience, which is going to be held June 11th

00:32:47.200 through the 14th, 2020. If you're not familiar with what this is, it's a father son event.

00:32:51.360 And it is unlike any other event that you'll see. I really recognized a need for something like this,

00:32:58.400 where men and their boys could get together with other men and their sons and really have some

00:33:04.680 competition, have some fun, but also some camaraderie between other dads who are ambitious,

00:33:10.820 who want to thrive with, with their boys. And then the boys, of course, who want to learn from each

00:33:16.480 other and want to want to be like each other and want to step up. And it's in fact, in fact,

00:33:20.260 the past couple of legacy events that I've done, it's very, very inspiring to see some of the older

00:33:25.180 boys and the older on that stage is 15. That's, that's the cutoff, but these, these 15 year old

00:33:31.640 boys working with the younger boys, which is eight, that's the age range is eight to 15. So to see these

00:33:37.400 older boys start working with independently with these, these younger boys and helping them step up

00:33:42.240 and learn over a course of three and a half days is very cool and very inspiring to see in something I

00:33:47.260 didn't fully anticipate. Uh, but we've got three and a half days planned of physical and mental and

00:33:53.100 emotionally challenging and demanding tasks and challenges and projects and assignments and work.

00:33:59.060 And, uh, it sounds like a lot of work. It is, um, you will not get a whole lot of sleep, but I'll tell

00:34:03.800 you, you're going to walk away with a new bond with your son and you're going to have the tools and the

00:34:08.900 resources that you need to help usher this man or young man, I should say into manhood, which is

00:34:13.860 something I think all of us as fathers are concerned with. We want to make sure we have the tools and

00:34:17.860 the, uh, the capability of doing that. Very, very important. So if you are interested, even just to

00:34:23.020 the slightest degree, I would encourage you to go to order a man.com slash legacy. Uh, watch a very

00:34:27.860 quick video of our last event. It's, I think it's three to four minutes and you can see what it's all

00:34:32.480 about and then learn more about what the weekend entails, but you got to do it quickly because I think

00:34:36.360 we have either one or two spots left, only one or two spots left. And we'll be shutting that thing

00:34:40.960 down and having the 20 of you guys out here on my property. And we're going to have a great weekend

00:34:45.360 and a very effective weekend as well. Again, order a man.com slash legacy. Uh, you can do that after

00:34:52.840 the show for now. I'm going to get back to my conversation with Jason Gardner. Yeah, it is funny

00:34:57.860 when you think about being angry and then you, you have the, at least some sort of insider capacity

00:35:02.600 to like detach for even if it's just an hour or overnight and you come back to it and you're

00:35:06.960 like, man, that actually really wasn't as big a deal as I made it out last night to be, you know?

00:35:13.260 So like that time margin is really helpful. How long have you been with, uh, the front team, Jason?

00:35:22.540 Uh, I'm right at, uh, just, just short of a year now with that salon front. So fair, fairly,

00:35:27.880 fairly new in the, in the program relative to how long they've been around. It sounds like

00:35:32.040 Yeah. What made you decide to start working with these guys? I know you had a relationship. Now,

00:35:38.960 did you, did you serve in a, in a combat tour with, with Leif and Jocko or were you more in

00:35:43.620 that training capacity is how you got introduced to them? No, I, uh, um, I was, I was at team three

00:35:51.340 at the same time they were, but I wasn't in task unit bruiser. Okay. I actually, my task unit,

00:35:56.120 did they deploy to Ramadi? I wound up going to, uh, the Pacific theater pay calm. So that was,

00:36:03.920 that was challenging because, you know, all seals want to be in combat. And then to be hearing that

00:36:10.180 they're getting in all this combat and we're, uh, you know, working in, you know, and we were,

00:36:17.480 we were in a great place. We were in Thailand, staying in a five-star hotel or go to Indonesia

00:36:21.580 to had some good trips on that deployment, but still it wasn't combat. So it was,

00:36:26.520 it was tough to keep our minds focused on the mission. But, uh, I've known Jocko since 1993 when

00:36:33.420 he was an enlisted guy. Um, I was over in Ramadi in 2005, augmenting team seven. So I was there about

00:36:40.080 six months prior to them getting there. And then, um, Jocko took over the training detachment

00:36:47.140 and was running all the sustainment training for the SEAL teams. When I came through in 2008 as a

00:36:54.120 SEAL task unit, uh, enlisted, senior enlisted advisor. And so that's the head guy over two

00:36:59.420 SEAL platoons. That's basically how we're organized in, in a, uh, uh, uh, at the SEAL teams. So you see

00:37:07.080 all the movies and TV shows are just focused on a platoon, but we're organized in a task units,

00:37:11.700 two or three, we wound up deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. That would wind up being the most intense

00:37:20.140 combat deployment of my career. It was eight months of, uh, a lot of fighting. I mean, we had

00:37:26.940 over 320 hours of troops in contact. So that was just that many firefights. Our longest firefight was

00:37:35.840 four days long. And then, uh, then I had one more combat deployment, uh, as a command master chief

00:37:43.020 with SEAL team five, we deployed to Iraq and we were involved heavily in 2016 and 17 of routing ISIL

00:37:49.840 out of Mosul and a small portion of the Western Iraq. Interesting. Yeah. So we were, we were in Ramadi

00:37:59.180 then at the same time I was, I was there from June of 2005 through June of 2006. So I think we must've

00:38:04.880 had some overlap there, which was, which was really the, the hot time of the insurgency there in Iraq.

00:38:11.160 So it's, it's interesting to hear that Afghanistan and what'd you say 2009 was even more active than

00:38:16.940 that. I, I, I almost can't imagine how intense and insane that must've been.

00:38:23.800 Well, I mean, every time we went out, we were full blown troops in contact. So, and, and I left

00:38:31.080 in on father's day of 2005. So we, we just like, we're there during your turnover or something.

00:38:39.620 Yeah. And at the time, like if you went into Southern Ramadi and you were on a foot patrol,

00:38:46.080 uh, typically I think that was the Marine zone, but I can't remember it. You, you would be,

00:38:53.440 if you stopped moving for 20 minutes, they would maneuver on you and you would start to take some

00:38:59.680 kind of fire, but it wasn't too big and crazy. Uh, and it just started, seems like it just ramped

00:39:06.140 up and ramped up and ramped up after that, especially going into 2006. Yeah, it really

00:39:11.420 did. It was, it was interesting to even get there in 2005 and we had the unit that we were replacing,

00:39:16.880 uh, basically onboard us and get us ramped up and up to speed as quickly as they could. And

00:39:22.700 man, these guys, these guys had a really rough go at it and it was visible, like how,

00:39:29.160 how shaken they were. And that's not to take anything away from, from them. They were great

00:39:33.780 soldiers, but it just went to show us like, I remember thinking like, Oh my goodness, what did

00:39:38.340 I get myself into when I heard the stories and they gave us a tour around the base and the city? It

00:39:43.600 was pretty intense at that point. What was that unit? That was, uh, uh, the unit that we replaced.

00:39:52.760 I can't, I can't remember right off hand what unit we replaced. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, let's see

00:39:57.980 June. Yeah. June of 2005. I can't remember what the unit was. So we worked with those guys pretty

00:40:05.320 heavily. Um, especially when we were doing stuff over into meme and, and, uh, I became pretty good

00:40:11.040 friends with one of the captains, uh, I guess the company commander there. Yeah. Those poor guys

00:40:18.500 had been deployed to Korea for a year. And then there, I I'm not even sure they got to go home

00:40:24.980 before they were deployed over to Iraq and then were there for another like 14 months. So it was crazy.

00:40:32.520 And they, they did, they had, they lost a couple of tanks to some huge IEDs that were buried in the

00:40:40.840 road. And, and it was, it's horrible. Yeah. It's rough. I remember when we left, uh, the unit that

00:40:48.100 then replaced us, it must've been within the first week. Cause we got back, we got back home and our,

00:40:53.740 uh, our first Sergeant had told us that they had experienced some sort of attack at the gate

00:40:58.660 and lost. I want to say it was like 10 soldiers in that first week that we had actually left.

00:41:04.740 Uh, because when these insurgents, they know, right. They know when these transitions take

00:41:08.520 place, they know when the chaos will ensue and they can inflict maximum damage. I remember part

00:41:13.860 of the time we had, when we were about to leave, they had built, um, some makeshift, uh, uh, housing

00:41:21.460 units out of basically sticks and plywood essentially is all it was. And, uh, there was an engineering

00:41:27.740 unit, if I remember correctly in there and man, that, that section that was immediately targeted

00:41:32.660 and destroyed, uh, because that was, that was the vulnerability. That was the weakness. And so

00:41:37.700 these insurgents, they know, like they're watching we're so, you know, in, in, in Ramadi,

00:41:42.120 Fabramadi, we were surrounded on all sides and basically in this pit. Yeah. And, uh, yeah,

00:41:47.820 they're, they're watching from all angles and know exactly what's going on, which is pretty intense.

00:41:51.640 Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So what is your role then with echelon front? Are you, are you training?

00:41:59.200 Are you presenting? Uh, are you working with organizations? What is it that you do with those

00:42:03.120 guys? So first of all, it's just absolutely a dream come true that I had this opportunity to

00:42:11.200 work with them, but so I'm one of their leadership instructors. And what I do is I go out, I give a

00:42:17.120 keynote speeches or run leadership workshops and work with basically every organization that you

00:42:25.440 could imagine. Just, just talking about these principles of the laws of combat and, and, and

00:42:31.800 basically it's a framework for how to run any organization. So we'll work with software companies.

00:42:37.060 We work with utilities. We work with first responders. We work with the financial industries. I've worked

00:42:43.940 with over a hundred companies in the last year and it's, it's fantastic at first, especially when

00:42:50.880 you're speaking to a software company or, uh, you know, healthcare company, they're like, that's,

00:42:57.040 that's great. You guys have some interesting stories about combat, but there, there's some skepticism

00:43:02.840 on how that really applies to their organization. And then as you lay out, you know, the, the,

00:43:11.660 the laws of combat, you know, Hey, cover and move is about teamwork and breaking down silos that

00:43:17.500 develop. And, you know, we had those in the, we absolutely had them in the military and, you know,

00:43:23.580 within the SEAL teams where different departments start to get antagonistic toward each other.

00:43:28.120 And they forget that the real enemy is out there outside the wire. And then you're just not running

00:43:33.860 at your maximum efficiency. Um, and then how important it is to develop relationships with people,

00:43:40.400 because if you don't have relationships developed, you, you cannot have an open line of

00:43:45.580 communication. You can't have feedback come back and forth without your ego getting in the way.

00:43:52.080 And so these, these combat stories, which are really interesting are a wedge that gets in there

00:43:57.700 and then drives home these principles that apply to any organization, no matter whether you're,

00:44:06.600 you're a financial institution or in the military or first responder in healthcare, because

00:44:12.580 it's about people working together and all the friction points are the same because people are

00:44:18.320 crazy. Yeah. We're, they're crazy. We're all crazy, but we all do the same thing too, right?

00:44:24.000 We're all crazy in a lot of the same ways. It seems like, and we get triggered by the same stuff

00:44:28.280 and we get popped up by, by the same things. We're all motivated, generally speaking by the same,

00:44:33.340 you know, four or five things. So yeah, we're, we're crazy, but, uh, we're also very predictable

00:44:38.940 as well. Exactly. And so, you know, when they talk about the laws of combat and the mindsets for

00:44:46.780 victory, it's a framework that is taking that into account and then, and it's applying it,

00:44:54.560 you know, all, all under that umbrella of extreme ownership where you're not making excuses,

00:44:58.960 you're not casting blame, you're just, just getting done what you can get done.

00:45:03.280 Yeah. I, I've never been to a muster, although that's on my list of things to do. It's just like

00:45:08.720 one more thing, right? There's so much to go to and do and be involved with. Uh, but we did have JP

00:45:13.520 come out. It must've been three or four months ago. He was, uh, he was doing some training for the

00:45:19.560 origin crew so that I think there was 30 or 40 of the employees with origin and, um, Pete was kind

00:45:24.960 enough to invite me out. And so I listened to JP present and talk about his stories and talk about

00:45:31.260 the laws of combat and the mindsets of victory for victory. And you know, it resonated with me

00:45:37.800 because I have some military experience, but I saw very quickly how all of this stuff translates

00:45:43.180 perfectly. Whether you're sewing jeans like origin is doing and making boots and geese and the

00:45:48.520 nutritional lineup to software development, to financial and legal firms, it all applies across

00:45:55.260 the board. Yeah. And JP is such a fantastic presenter because I, what I, I really enjoy about JP

00:46:06.120 is his vulnerability when he, he, he presents, he doesn't seem like some, something that like it's

00:46:14.580 unattainable. Like, ah, this guy is just perfect. No, JP has got a very human aspect of it. And then

00:46:21.440 the way he just applies discipline to everything is fantastic. I actually really, when I brief a lot

00:46:29.960 of the stuff that, that I have in my brief is, is stuff that I'm, I'm taking from him that I've,

00:46:35.700 I've learned because he is such a powerful presenter because he's just, he connects so well with his

00:46:43.340 audiences and it's just perfect communication. Yeah, no doubt. He's a, he's very relatable,

00:46:49.520 right? Like if somebody listens to him, myself included, you can see the, a lot of yourself

00:46:55.960 and how the best version of you can come out because he's able to draw that out. He just does

00:47:00.900 a, does a fantastic job. What, what are the mindsets for victory? It seems like I remember maybe

00:47:06.900 one or two of them, but I can't remember, uh, the, the, uh, the total, all of the mindsets for

00:47:13.920 victory. Do you mind breaking those down? No, let's hit it. Uh, so obviously, you know,

00:47:20.700 the overall one is extreme ownership. And that means that, that you, you're not going to make excuses.

00:47:26.380 You're not going to cast blame. If a teammate is failing, then you're going to look at it and go,

00:47:32.580 well, I'm not helping that person enough. I didn't train them enough. I haven't seen what

00:47:37.860 their issues are enough. I haven't dug into it deep enough. And that's really skimming the surface.

00:47:43.160 I mean, we could talk for an hour just on that one. It's really kind of a stoic philosophy next up,

00:47:49.640 you know, default aggressive. All right. And default aggressive. So what that is not default aggressive

00:47:56.980 is not me getting inside someone's 18 inch bubble and knife handing them and yelling at them. Default

00:48:03.060 aggressive is not me, uh, sending an email out in all caps and in red default aggressive is seeing

00:48:12.560 what needs to be done and then doing it. And so it's just about being proactive really. And

00:48:22.060 people struggle with, or, or the things that all of us most need to do is in the places we least want

00:48:31.580 to look. So for instance, um, as a command master chief, the worst thing in the world that could

00:48:37.980 happen to me is having one of my teammates killed in combat. So on my workup during our workup,

00:48:45.480 getting ready to play with seal team five, we did seven total drills. We call them Keiko drills,

00:48:51.120 casualty assistant care officer drills. And that's where we run a drill practicing for losing a

00:48:56.900 teammate. And the first time you run the drill, no one's default aggressive. Everybody's because

00:49:03.000 no one wants to think about the eventuality of leaving a teammate, losing a teammate. So they're

00:49:07.380 cutting all kinds of corners. Yeah. They're cutting all kinds of corners. So when you're done with the

00:49:11.820 first drill, you're like, Hey, wait a minute. Uh, where's the letter that someone was supposed to

00:49:16.900 write to the spouse? Well, that's something you might want to practice, right? Hey, who inventoried

00:49:24.460 the guy's locker? That's something you want to practice. So we found a whole bunch of places where

00:49:31.660 we were doing things kind of weak. And then we just kept drilling it and drilling it until we got it down.

00:49:38.120 And then we had a three ring binder with a step-by-step process of, uh, Hey, this is what

00:49:46.080 we're going to do in the eventuality that, uh, someone's killed. And then in October of 2016,

00:49:53.740 uh, when we kicked off the assault of Mosul, I had three sealed platoons that were attached to

00:50:00.040 partner forces, um, doing the salt and, uh, EOD chief JJ Finan was killed by an IED during that

00:50:10.580 initial couple of days. I think it was actually the first day of the assault. And it was horrible

00:50:16.820 when they passed over the radio to our tactical operations center. Hey, we, they passed his call

00:50:24.680 sign and they said, he's expected, which means in the military, he's expected to die. I felt as if

00:50:31.580 someone had dumped a cold bucket of water over my head. I really wasn't capable of making any

00:50:36.740 complex decisions. I saw some of my teammates in front of their computer screens, breaking down and

00:50:42.900 crying. And luckily we'd been default aggressive ahead of time. And we'd made ourselves that checklist.

00:50:50.060 And so we were able just to go cause, cause then the next thing that happened was everybody wanted

00:50:56.680 to do something and you can, sometimes it's bad to do things. There are some things you can do. You

00:51:02.120 can mess up the whole process. So we went into the, uh, CO's office with, uh, some of our leadership and

00:51:11.280 we opened up that binder and we said, Hey, what's step one and did it. And then went step by step

00:51:17.640 through that process and got things done to do the best thing we could by JJ's memory and for his

00:51:25.260 spouse and his son, you know, and we made that for all kinds of stuff. We made it for, uh, what do we

00:51:34.440 do if someone's in a dang motorcycle accident, because that's a big pain in the butt now in the

00:51:39.360 military when someone's in a motorcycle accident. And so that's what default aggressive is about is

00:51:44.300 about looking at what needs to be done and actually doing something about it. Now there's

00:51:49.860 a dichotomy. There are times when the best thing for you to do is to just sit back and collect

00:51:59.040 information and not do a thing because just reacting right out of the gate is bad. And, and that's where

00:52:06.360 the whole dichotomy comes in. And that's a whole reason for, for the second book. I was really,

00:52:11.420 really lucky in that extreme ownership came out right when I promoted out of being a tactical

00:52:18.020 leader in the seal teams to the executive levels of leadership. And so it really helped me as a

00:52:23.560 command master chief, look at doing some of these things like being default aggressive and see things

00:52:30.340 that I was doing correctly and things that I was doing incorrectly and move forward. And I think I was

00:52:37.360 fairly successful and, and the team will, I'll say this seal team five did a fantastic deployment.

00:52:46.140 I was really lucky to be attached with them for, for our 2016, 17 deployment. And, and it wasn't

00:52:53.520 because of any talent I had, but the rest, the rest of the team. So another, another good mindset for

00:52:59.560 victory is innovate and adapt. Hold on, Jason, before we move into that one, I want to ask you just a

00:53:04.780 couple of other questions on this one. Well, number one, and you talk about patients being the

00:53:09.660 dichotomy, right? Doing nothing. But I also think you can even look at patients as, as default

00:53:15.180 aggressive, if that's in the, in the strategy, right? Like if it's, if it's being patient and

00:53:20.320 letting things play out and you're, you're actively patient, meaning you're letting things play out,

00:53:24.940 you're working through the system, you're letting the results and the chips fall where they may.

00:53:28.160 I think that can also be included in that default aggressive, uh, category. It's not always like

00:53:33.780 the red hothead. Who's just getting everything done and then leaves a wake of collateral damage

00:53:37.880 in his path. Uh, how, but my question is, yeah, I like that. How does somebody, uh, how does somebody

00:53:45.480 begin to recognize? Cause you talk about where we need the most work is where we look the least,

00:53:50.980 right? Sometimes we just create these boxes around us and we can't see those. Like we've

00:53:57.880 been wearing the blindfold for so long that we can't recognize what area needs to work. Like,

00:54:03.300 how do we begin to uncover and discover where we might need a standard operating procedure or an

00:54:09.760 order of priorities in the way that we, you know, live our lives or, or work out or do whatever,

00:54:15.160 whatever facet of life. Like, how do we recognize that in ourselves?

00:54:20.980 I think fundamentally, a lot of the stuff, you know, that you, you needs to be done. It's just

00:54:30.020 a matter of sometimes maybe it's uncomfortable to do it, or maybe you're going to have to use a

00:54:35.400 little bit of discipline to do it. Uh, so that's one aspect of it. The, uh, the other aspect is I

00:54:41.960 agree. There are some things that are outside of your scope of what you actually perceive. And then

00:54:49.020 just like listening to these kinds of podcasts and other people having discussions, uh, you know,

00:54:55.060 looking, looking at some of the different books that are out there, whether you're studying stoicism

00:54:59.800 or Buddhism, or just in general, if you're going to be introspective and this, this is, this comes

00:55:07.360 down to extreme ownership. If you're going to look at yourself first and, and really start to be

00:55:14.140 mindful and present of what's going on, that that's going to be a huge help.

00:55:21.000 Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. All right. You moved on. I interrupted you. So you moved on to

00:55:24.720 point number three, but I can't remember what it was initially. So,

00:55:27.480 so innovate and adapt is another one of the mindsets for victory. And that that's just about,

00:55:34.100 okay, you always have room to improve. So when somebody asks you, why are we doing this,

00:55:42.540 this way? You don't say, this is the way we've always done it. Or because I said, so

00:55:49.640 period, I think those two phrases are a pretty good indicator that, that you've stagnated, right?

00:55:55.760 That there is no more growth and expansion in whoever you're dealing with.

00:56:00.500 Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, when we talk about humility is another kind of mindset for

00:56:07.180 victory, what, what does that even mean? Because a lot of people confuse humility with meekness and

00:56:12.900 it's not the same thing. What humility is, is having an honest assessment that like I have

00:56:19.600 room to improve and I don't know everything. And then, you know, you're able to in conversations

00:56:25.520 with people, maybe step a little bit back and assess how you're doing, whatever you're doing.

00:56:32.580 And is there a better way to do it? And as we age, you know, a lot of stuff with technology,

00:56:39.400 we're not the best at it. So, you know, if you have somebody that's younger, that's in your circle

00:56:44.480 of friends or, you know, even your kids, you can lean on them to have you help you with technology

00:56:50.860 or, or different processes to do things. Yeah. I like that you're talking about humility in the

00:56:59.260 context of, okay, here's what I'm not good at and here's what I'm going to do to fix it. Like,

00:57:03.800 I think that second component is actually a critical part of humility. Like you have to be willing to

00:57:07.960 fix it. Otherwise, I don't know if it's humility as much as it is just passivity, right? Like,

00:57:12.700 oh, I just suck at that thing. So, you know, I guess there's nothing I can do about it. Like

00:57:16.860 that to me is not a humble thought. A humble thought is, Hey, you know, I'm not very good at

00:57:20.740 this, but I'd like to get better. So I'm going to reach out to people that know more than me.

00:57:25.260 I'm going to gain some new information. I'm going to listen to some podcasts. I'm going to go train.

00:57:29.100 I'm going to go practice. And then I'm going to be better at that thing so I can serve myself and

00:57:34.360 people more effectively. Like that to me is the, the total humility package, not, yeah, I just suck at it.

00:57:39.980 Like I'm just weak. There's nothing I can do. That to me is not even close to humility.

00:57:46.800 Right. Well, and the other side of that coin is something that you're really good at

00:57:50.740 because you're not the best ever at it. And, um, you know, they, they, in military circles,

00:57:57.640 they call this the disease of victory. And it's when you get to, uh, you, you get a couple of wins

00:58:04.260 and then all of a sudden you think you're unstoppable. You stop respecting the enemy.

00:58:09.900 You don't look for ways to improve and you can really get caught with your pants down because

00:58:14.540 you've lost your humility and you become a little arrogant. Yeah. And you know, look, look, look at

00:58:20.400 in the business world, you think about some big businesses that were just

00:58:26.040 owned everything and now they're not there. And blockbuster video is an example of one of

00:58:31.260 them and entertainment and just to be that just is done. Right. Yeah. That is because,

00:58:37.040 and I think if I remember the story correctly with them, I think, uh, Netflix or another

00:58:41.820 subscription service had reached out and offered, offered their, their company or their service or

00:58:47.180 their, their technology and blockbusters like, nah, we don't need that. And we, you know, we own this

00:58:52.500 space and that lack of humility is what actually undermined them and completely destroyed what they had

00:58:58.200 going. So that's a, that's a, that's a very good point. So we've got extreme ownership, default

00:59:02.520 aggressive, uh, uh, innovate and adapt and humility. It sounds like is one of them. Is there, is there

00:59:07.840 anything else in there? Uh, we shifted a couple of, of the ones around, uh, with, with a dichotomy

00:59:17.900 with the dichotomies of leadership, but I think that that pretty much hammers it out. I don't have my

00:59:24.360 stuff right in front of me, but off the top of my head, you know, those, those are the biggies

00:59:27.940 and extreme ownership. Yeah. It's, um, the thing that I noticed and, and, and I've always recognized

00:59:33.300 this about Jocko and echelon front and what all you guys are doing. Cause I've had conversations with

00:59:38.460 you and JP and Leif and Jocko and, uh, Mike is coming out here in the next several months.

00:59:46.100 But the thing that I noticed about what you guys have done, such a great job at doing is creating

00:59:51.600 frameworks. Like these, these aren't just like out there theories like, Oh, we think it'd be good

00:59:57.440 to take responsibility. No, it's like you've codified it and you put these systems in place.

01:00:03.260 Step one, step two, step three, here's the four mindsets. Here's the four laws of combat. Here's

01:00:08.180 how you implement it. And for guys like me who, you know, want to take a system and are able to just

01:00:14.300 implement it. It's a, and even guys who are kind of out there, you know, a little loose with,

01:00:18.660 with their planning and the way they approach their life. This is a very powerful strategic

01:00:23.220 way to implement strategies. They're going to help you improve. That's, that's what I've noticed.

01:00:27.460 And I'm so impressed about what you guys are doing.

01:00:31.660 Yeah. I mean, and that's all Jocko and Leif. That's all them doing it, but I'm really happy

01:00:37.000 they did because like I said, I, I, you know, devoured extreme ownership when it came out because I knew

01:00:44.360 both of them and then started putting the stuff in practice and started it working in, in real time.

01:00:50.000 And then when stuff was going difficult or wasn't working, I was like, oh, okay, well, here's the mistake

01:00:57.320 I'm making there. And typically the mistake was not taking ownership. And, um, a lot of it, you know,

01:01:06.760 in any organization is developing relationships and not having a clear understanding about what other,

01:01:11.420 another department's job was, or, or their mission and, uh, and that, you know?

01:01:17.760 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, we'll wind it down on time a little bit. I want to ask you a couple

01:01:21.820 of additional questions. Uh, the first one is what does it mean to be a man?

01:01:26.320 So a man is able to stand discomfort in order to get a job done. And a man is in control of his

01:01:45.440 emotions. Specifically anger is the one that needs the most control. And a man understands that the

01:01:54.300 greatest strength lies from responding to negativity with kindness.

01:02:01.260 That's powerful. That's really powerful. I liked that first part where you said,

01:02:05.280 what, how did you phrase it? He said, uh, being able to withstand discomfort in order to get the

01:02:10.900 job done. It's very powerful. I like that. Well, Jason, I appreciate you. I mean, isn't that what

01:02:16.700 I mean? Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're, you're, you're putting yourself under voluntary hardship,

01:02:21.660 something that's uncomfortable, something that potentially is painful because you know,

01:02:25.860 it'll produce a future desired result. And that's a great definition of it.

01:02:30.840 Yeah. Well, I appreciate you doing round two with me. I, I, uh, I, I, uh, felt bad when I had to reach

01:02:37.660 out and say, man, we've got some issues here, but I think that was a, uh, that was a good practice

01:02:42.280 because this one was even better. And I know the guys are going to get a ton of value from it. So

01:02:46.020 how do we connect with you and stay in touch with you with what you're doing? I know on, uh,

01:02:50.240 Instagram, you post a lot about what you're doing with, with the, the, do you call it a ranch or a

01:02:55.680 homestead? Like how do you, how do you define it? Yeah. I think, uh, I think a homestead is a pretty

01:03:02.000 fair example of what we've got going on. I mean, um, we've got horses, we've got, uh,

01:03:10.640 the horses is really all the livestock we got. We're not breeding them. So I guess technically not

01:03:14.540 a ranch, but homestead is what I kind of think about of it as, but yeah, uh, I'm pretty much

01:03:20.720 on the Instagram at Jason dot N dot Gardner. Now I was on Twitter. I I've moved away from that. I'm

01:03:28.520 not there anymore. I just don't, it's too clunky and I don't like it. Instagram is like my favorite

01:03:33.900 social media platform right now. Yeah. I'm with you on that for sure. Well, we'll sync that up.

01:03:38.680 And then obviously with echelon front as well, we'll make sure guys have the links so they know where to

01:03:42.080 go. Uh, Jason, I appreciate you. I'm inspired not only through your service and your lessons

01:03:46.420 and everything you're doing with echelon front, but the way that you lead your family, um, and the way

01:03:50.160 that you're living your life is inspiring to me. And, you know, I look a lot about with what you're

01:03:54.380 doing and I think, man, like what of that can I incorporate in my own life with my four kids and

01:03:59.880 my wife and the way I'm leading at home and the way that we're taking care of our property. It's,

01:04:03.740 it's, uh, it's very cool to see. And I'm going to implement a lot of the things that you've been

01:04:07.460 doing because, uh, I see how much value it seems to have brought to your life. So I do appreciate

01:04:11.940 that from you. Yeah. Same thing. Uh, back at you, Ryan, I follow you, see your posts every day.

01:04:20.200 I'm immensely jealous of those, uh, bison boots you've got. I got to hit them up and get a pair

01:04:25.620 ordered pretty soon. Hey, you might know, you might know one of the owners, I think. So you could

01:04:30.340 probably swing that pretty easily. You just gotta, you just gotta be a little louder, a little vocal,

01:04:36.440 I think on that one. And you can get yourself some. Oh, I'm gonna, I just, uh, uh, I was looking

01:04:44.040 at the different styles out there and, and, and I really liked the style that you chose. So I know

01:04:48.400 that, uh, our tastes at least in boots are the same. That's right. Great minds think alike. Well,

01:04:53.480 Jason, I appreciate you. We'll call it a day, but thanks again for joining me. Looking forward to

01:04:57.080 getting this out to the guys. Awesome. Thanks Ryan. Thank you. Gentlemen, there you go. What

01:05:03.480 did I tell you? I told you to be a powerful one. Uh, Jason is absolutely incredible. I mean,

01:05:08.760 he's got so much real world experience, battle, uh, experience things that, uh, lessons that he's

01:05:13.640 learned that he can apply to his everyday life. And of course he's doing a wonderful job at making

01:05:18.440 sure that we have those same tools without having to go through some of the same experiences that he did

01:05:23.640 over a 30 year career in the military specifically with the, with the seal teams.

01:05:27.800 Uh, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Make sure you reach out to Jason on the socials and me as

01:05:31.880 well. Let both of us know what you thought about the show. What did you like most? What resonated

01:05:35.560 with you? Uh, maybe there was something that didn't resonate with you or, or I don't know,

01:05:39.400 you disagree with, and we want to have that discussion. As long as it's respectful, we're more than

01:05:43.400 willing to have those types of discussions, because I think, uh, this is the type of conversations

01:05:48.040 that we need to have as men. Uh, it's, it's like, you know, millions of years ago as men were sitting

01:05:52.760 around the fires and telling stories and sharing lessons. This is what the podcast is. It's done

01:05:58.760 digitally, obviously, and we're reaching more people, which is great, but ultimately it's the

01:06:03.400 same deal, telling each other stories, uh, letting each other learn from these stories so that maybe

01:06:08.760 we don't have to go through some of those same hardships and lessons the hard way. Uh, and that's

01:06:12.600 what this podcast is all about. So again, reach out to Jason and myself on the socials, Twitter,

01:06:17.160 Instagram, Facebook, wherever you're doing it. And we'll connect with you guys. I just want to let

01:06:21.000 you know, I appreciate you being on the podcast, uh, and just tuning in. It's important that we get

01:06:25.320 this conversation out. Uh, the, the, the trend seems to be moving away from, uh, the ideal version

01:06:32.280 of masculinity and what I think most of us are trying to become. And, uh, I've planted my flag

01:06:36.760 on the hill of masculinity and I'm trying to reclaim and restore what it means so that not only you as a

01:06:41.240 man can be served, but your children and your wife and your neighbors and community members and

01:06:46.440 workers and employees and everything else can be served, uh, by you, by having you around.

01:06:51.880 All right, guys, we're going to call it a day. We'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything,

01:06:55.080 but until then go out there, take action, become the man you are meant to be.

01:06:59.400 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:07:03.960 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - March 17, 2020

Establishing the Mindsets for Victory ｜ JASON GARDNER

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